Slashdot Mirror
US Forgets How To Make Trident Missiles
Hugh Pickens writes "The US and the UK are trying to refurbish the aging W76 warheads that tip Trident missiles to prolong their life and ensure they are safe and reliable but plans have been put on hold because US scientists have forgotten how to manufacture a mysterious but very hazardous component of the warhead codenamed Fogbank. 'NNSA had lost knowledge of how to manufacture the material because it had kept few records of the process when the material was made in the 1980s, and almost all staff with expertise on production had retired or left the agency,' says the report by a US congressional committee. Fogbank is thought by some weapons experts to be a foam used between the fission and fusion stages of the thermonuclear bomb on the Trident Missile and US officials say that manufacturing Fogbank requires a solvent cleaning agent which is 'extremely flammable' and 'explosive,' and that the process involves dealing with 'toxic materials' hazardous to workers. 'This is like James Bond destroying his instructions as soon as he has read them,' says John Ainslie, the co-ordinator of the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, adding that 'perhaps the plans for making Fogbank were so secret that no copies were kept.' Thomas D'Agostino, administrator or the US National Nuclear Security Administration, told a congressional committee that the administration was spending 'a lot of money' trying to make 'Fogbank' at Y-12, but 'we're not out of the woods yet.'"
you can download the instruction from the Pirate Bay...
Excellent. Lets hope they can't make it and it means they have to get rid of them. Due to the current economic crisis, hopefully they can't afford to come up with a replacement.
In the current global climate, there's no point in having nuclear missiles. Those who could strike us are no longer interested and are now allies and those who are hostile and nuclear capable can't reach us.
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
Just get Gordon Ramsay to taste it. He'll tell you what's in it.
"Oops". Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm reading Slashdot or Dave's Blog.
Best Slashdot Co
A similar problem exists with the SR-71's engines: some key documentation was destroyed in the interests of secrecy, which has greatly complicated maintenance work on the remaining aircraft.
Researcher A: Hey what was that thing we did with the spherical thing made of some sort of weird element that was like hit with a rod of some other sort of weird element that made like a really huge explosion back in the day? You know like when we helped un-nazi the world forever?
Researcher B: Oh snap that's right! You better write that down like before we forget that again.
They need Brawndo.
Maybe we shouldn't be refurbishing these warheads, then? Who, precisely, will we be using them on?
Let Dr. Gaius Baltar reverse engineer the missiles and contruct a superior refurbished version (like an old MacBook with a new main board and fat harddrive).
Call the retired folks at home and ask them to come back as consulates. Has to be easiest and most obvious answer.
I think this speaks of a larger problem in how the US government organizes itself. NASA had the same issue with some spaceship components because new people were not trained on how legacy systems were built. This issue is happening through many departments in the US government. The US government's extreme isolationism and disinformation for public forums allows them to be years ahead in technology that could help the general public, but means that the people can't benefit from the technology they fund until it has been independently discovered or rendered a relic by some new technology.
Mission Impossible, yes. James Bond, no.
"This is like James Bond destroying his instructions as soon as he has read them,"
I think you mean Inspector Gadget... but maybe that's just me
How about you just decommission the warheads and missiles?
I mean Obama is all about curtailing military spending. Here's a good cut, right? /hippyliberalantiweaponcommentary
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
I'm sure it's in there in.
We need to get back the ol' American ingenuity and CAN-DO attitude! Remember we Uh-Mericans can do anything!
This is why it's important to document your code... or your warheads. Either or.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
The material in the design specification was essentially unobtanium. It couldn't be manufactured at all. Quietly, the manufacturing engineers developed a solution that almost met all of the design specifications, and this was an excellent compromise. Unfortunately, the design engineers couldn't be convinced to sign off on the design change because of quality procedure 15, and military qualification 7. However, the biggest reason the design engineers wouldn't sign off on the change was because of a supposedly critical but practically useless mandatory project requirement, like the missile must work when fired in -40 degree water from 20 feet under the polar ice shelf.
The manufacturing engineers decided that the "fire nuclear missile while under ice shelf function", probably wouldn't be used, so the modified material was actually just fine. They shipped the missiles, got paid, and everyone was happy. Until now, when someone tries to "fix" the original "fix".
This story has happened before and will happen again. Whenever you bump into a design that requires a part that "does not exist", watch out for the possibility that the part never did "exist". It could be that you are reading a "design" document, and not what manufacturing actually built. I've worked in manufacturing, and there are lots of stories about impossible to make designs that somehow got shipped.
My European grandmother made a cake that could easily withstand the middle stages of a nuclear explosion.
While I am very concerned about this, I am not surprised at all. It is by coincidence that I was reading this website and found out that despite perceived Russian problems, the USA is at least a decade behind Russia in missile technology!
Below are two snippets of the whole article. Scary!
"Despite the Pentagon's development of a new generation of hypersonic missile, the U.S. is still a decade behind Russia in high-speed cruise-missile design, according to defense analysts. According to the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency, the U.S. military is developing a new hypersonic robot missile reported to be capable of traveling in excess of six times the speed of sound and armed with its own miniature smart bombs. The new weapon, called the Advanced Rapid Response Missile Demonstrator, or ARRMD, is designed to cruise at over 4,000 miles an hour and strike targets hundreds of miles away in only a few seconds. "
"Nevertheless, defense analysts agree that the U.S. is fully a decade behind Russia in high-speed cruise missile designs. Russia currently deploys and exports the supersonic SS-N-22 Moskit cruise missile, NATO codenamed "Sunburn." The SS-N-22 is considered the most lethal anti-ship missile in the world, and flies at over 2.5 times the speed of sound only a few feet from the surface of the water." [This speed amounts to almost 1,700 miles per hour, or 28 miles per minute]."
Folks, we can't let this happen.
since we can't remember how to make the 1980's era stuff, let's make something new and innovative.
really? We would rather have stuff from the 1980's?
They're using their grammar skills there.
There is a serious side to this. The US hasn't actually built any nukes, stuck 'en on a rocket, fired them and had a successful BOOM for well over 40 years. That must be coming up for 2 generations of rocket / nuclear scientists and the third generation is now in training. That means that the "new guys" will learn from people who didn't have any practical experience and in turn learned from the people who actually *did it* nearly 50 years ago.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
"ensure they are safe and reliable" Cup of Irony anyone?
is tar!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Some old guy fly-fishing in the middle of nowhere when a black helicopter lands nearby and three beefy men in suits and black sunglasses hop out.
"Excuse the interruption of your retirement, Doctor, but you're going to need to come with us..."
You don't value something until you lose it. Applies to dating, business, and top secret government projects.
Think Deeply.
"In the current global climate, there's no point in having nuclear missiles"
Right, because russia isn't being beligerant, Iran isn't keeping up its worn out Death to the USA rhetoric and hasn't just developed a ballistic missle capable of carrying nuclear missiles, various islamic groups arn't trying to obtain fissile material etc etc.
"and are now allies "
Really? Tell that to Georgia (the european country).
"who are hostile and nuclear capable can't reach us"
Yes, because making a rocket go a few extra thousand miles is such a challenge compared to developing a nuclear bomb.
Well, if you showed me some dough I "might" remember sir.
Just imagine this scenario...
1) You have the blueprints and technology
2) Hide blueprints and "forget" about technology
3) Ask for budget to redevelop
4) Redevelop using hidden blueprints
5) ???
6) Profit!
- "They misunderestimated me."
Sorry to point this out but it looks like it already has. Anyway , the russians have always been pretty smart when its come to high speed kit whether it be rocket motors or jet fighters. Look how far ahead of their time the Mig 25 foxbat and Mig 29 fulcrum were/are.
Aren't they supposed to have copies of every nuclear weapon we've designed?
See, this is what happens when you don't continue to spend money on extremely advanced engineering projects: you lose the technology. Technology isn't just a textbook and some blueprints, it requires the experience and knowledge of scientists and engineers. It's a living thing: shelve it, and it dies.
It would be nice to think this would serve as an abject lesson to congresscritters, next time they think about cutting funding for something 'we don't need right now.' Although I'm cynical enough not to believe that.
... or whatever these guys are called now. Maybe they haven't lost their copy of the plans yet. Of course, don't make a big buzz about it and bring a few suitcases full of gold in exchange for the favor.
When I worked for a defense contractor, I always dreamed of being the single point of failure for something very important and leaving the company.
Charge an extremely high hourly rate retired folks. Repair your 401K!
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
You've got to read secret alien to make sense out of the owners' manual.
Nuclear weapons are not meant to "win". They are meant to ensure everyone loses. That in and of itself is the deterrent to using nuclear weapons.
almost all staff with expertise on production had retired or left the agency
... a highly paid consultant! If they left but they have the knowledge, pay them 10x what they used to make to get them to tell you how to do it... I thought this is how defense contracting worked, so why haven't they thought of this?
rooooar
That's the problem with securing your documents, you secure them so well that even you forget what the hell you were securing in the first place. Maybe they'll forget how to send people to war..hmm could that be the key to peace on earth? give US government alzheimers.
Having worked at this facility in the '80's as an engineer, I can say definitively that this scenario is either misunderstood, or incorrectly reported, or deliberately obfuscated, or a lie, or postulated from sketchy evidence, but it is factually and wholly wrong.
Every project for every material or product, special or otherwise, was properly documented. These files would not be destroyed. (Note here that I'm assuming the files on "fogbank" were not lost in an accident or by malicious destruction.)
Now, has the practical and hands-on knowledge of the step-by-step, moment-by-moment synthesis reaction to make this material been lost? Perhaps in the course of 25 years it has. Lots of people have left the plant since then. But all the information, notations and observations necessary to reconstruct the process/project do exist, I assure you.
Perhaps we can buy back the plans from China? Thank Clinton for selling them most of our nuclear secrets.
He wasn't selling secrets, he was making backups!
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"Scientists" haven't forgotten how to manufacture this stuff. The USA has forgotten how to manufacture this stuff. That's what happens when you stop thinking about science.
All this was true at the beginning of the Bush presidency. None of it is true after.
May the Maths Be with you!
For help, please contact this consultant.
Yours In Socialism,
Kilgore Trout
I think if you want to survive, as a nation, the best thing to do in response to a nuclear attack by a terrorist organization would be to STFU and fucking NOT retaliate.
This is the equivallent of telling a rape victim to lay back and enjoy it.
No.
On second thought, HELL NO.
You, sir/madam, are an imbecile.
As to the rest of the manure you're shoveling about the world being a better place if the US disappeared? Well, that really doesn't require an answer, now does it?
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Ask the KGB.
"It's so secret even we don't know what the hell it is." You know what? There is a beautiful explanation about security over at EFF's Surveillance Self-Defense site. It begins, "Security isn't having the strongest lock or the best anti-virus software â" security is about making trade-offs to manage risk..." Ironic that in answer to this story, I'd link to that particular site. You see, individual human beings and companies, which are groups of individual human beings working together, have to do things in a reasonable and moderate way. Nothing is perfect, but you cannot expect an imperfect being to do something that is more perfect than himself. There has to be a balance between acceptable risk and convenience, and between acceptable security and cost. But when it comes to the government, the government does not know how to do anything in a moderate way. For the government, if they decided that some piece of paper is a secret, it needs to be so well guarded that even God couldn't get to it. For the government, there is no such thing as a reasonable cost, like there is for anybody else. The government will buy it at any cost, and if there isn't enough money for it, they'll simply proclaim that they deserve a larger chunk of your (and everyone else's) income, and that you (I love this word) owe them more than before. How did it come to pass that you owe them when you aren't the one who made the decision? Simple. It's as if you bought a computer and the EULA for the operating system said, "By us having written this licensing agreement, you have agreed to be bound by its terms." Well, that sort of extremism, when it comes to security, when it comes to any government service (or disservice) is not beneficial, neither to the government nor to the people whom it represents.
"Fogbank is the most secure modification of Trident missile warheads in the world."
"I know that."
"Do you know why it's so thoroughly secure?"
"Well, presumably because knowledge of its manufacture is severely restricted."
"No! Knowledge of its manufacture is non-existent. No one knows how to make Fogbank! No one at all!"
"So, if our source is correct, the only person who knows how to make Fogbank lives somewhere in there."
"Which makes him about the only thing that does."
"At least we'll recognize him when we see him even if we don't recognize it when we see him, if he's the only one there, if you see what I mean."
"Oh, shut up."
"I'm just trying to help!"
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
Now if only everyone would forget how to make the REST of the damn things the world would be a far safer place!
"Time to spend billions on some new ones!"
"Violence is the supreme authority from which all authority is derived."
Given our advanced brains capable of understanding consequences without having to directly endure them, the threat of violence is just as effective as actual violence, and far less harmful. However, in order for the threat to be credible, there must be real capacity backing it up.
By having weapons of mass destruction in our arsenal, and never using them, we prevent the very kind of mass-slaughter that these very same weapons could cause. A massive disarm makes everyone weaker, which reduces the potential impact of retaliation, which reduces the disincentives to strike first, which makes it more likely that someone will strike first, thus incurring a retaliation strike, and hence war. The war will last longer than it otherwise would precisely because both sides feel safer continuing to fight someone who doesn't have nuclear weapons, and thus even more people die.
The (credible) threat of force is exactly what is needed to ensure that actual force need not be used.
Whether or not this should be the case has little to do with whether or not this is the case.
And people wonder why I think the best way to secure peace is to get rid of the US...
I don't know why you think that, but the rest of the world doesn't exactly have a good track record in keeping the peace. Look at Europe before the US started stationing soldiers there in 1941 - two world wars. Or look at the parts of the world the US isn't interested in, such as Sub-Saharan Africa.
-- Support a free market in the field of government
Nukes are actually very cost effective.
Best Slashdot Co
So they're spending a lot of money trying to make Fogbank because almost all staff with expertise on production had retired or left the agency? Anyone at NNSA want to try giving some of the previous staff a call??
According to a friend that did a stint in high level strategy at NASA, that's not really an urban legend. When the project was shelved, the documents were more or less destroyed. Our Shuttle launch capacity isn't the same as then, and we really don't have the capacity to just "put err up." It's not that the blueprints are gone, one presumes that a certain level of that was archived, and reverse engineering the rest of the tech wouldn't be the issue, but you are right about the industrial base.
Also, changing environmental and work conditions would prevent just throwing together the Saturn V. Also, engineers of today don't have the same skill sets as back then. I never learned drafting, the core of engineering then. The archived records would presumably let skilled engineers recreate the project, but we don't have the same skills. Reorienting NASA for the Mars mission was a complete reorg of most of the agency, and a LOT of the work is recreating our technology from the space race with modern techniques and materials, because the old stuff doesn't exist.
Same reason you can't buy a 57 Chevy new... it's not that GM couldn't make a similar truck, but with modern environmental and CAFE standards, you couldn't recreate the classics, even if all the plans were there, and the guys working the lines are trained for robotic factories, you couldn't just recreate the 57 lines.
Technology has moved how far since the 80's? I am talking out my ass, but wouldn't it be cheaper and more efficient to just buy someone's newer DARPA creation instead?
Tell that to Georgia (the european country).
Couple of points, if you ever actually visited Georgia, you would have a hard time calling it a "Euopean country" with a straight face. It is a typical Southern Caucaus mountain territory, and the only wiff of Europe is what has been bought with bribe money from US and EU... As far as the Georgias "problems" they are self inflicted, THEY attacked Ossetia and tried to commit genocide and were thwarted. If you dig into the history of Georgias modern borders as they are today you will see that it is a country created by its native son, Stalin. Its borders were created through forced relocation of the native population of Ossetia, Abkhazia, etc.
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
> non-nuclear weapons with megaton yields
No such thing. The largest thermobaric weapons have yields in the tens or at most hundreds of tons.
From Wikipedia:
Buy our new model (with an EULA)!
How does nuking thousands of Japanese civilians un-nazi the world?
By the end of WWII the Japanese were ready to fight to the last Japanese. Not the last Japanese soldier, the last Japanese. The US was also ready to fight to the last Japanese. For example, they got so many purple hearts (the wounded soldier decoration) made, they still had supplied in 2000.
If it hadn't been for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japanese culture might have gone the way of the Sioux. A remnant would have survived, but only a remnant.
-- Support a free market in the field of government
Comment removed based on user account deletion
politics is about power. unanswered challenges to your power are signs of weakness. this is on a public, national and international level. perception of weakness leads to actual weakness
on a personal level, say, you were punched in a bar, or mugged on the street, "turn the other cheek" is a superior philosophy. and not just because its folksy and feel good. but because its a genuinely superior approach to survival. responding to violence on a personal level with more violence usually just gets you killed eventually. responding to violence by just walking away, meanwhile, means you live to see a peaceful bar after the violent idiots kill each other
but that's not how things work on the international stage
international politics, despite weak allegories anyone can construct that don't really illuminate reality, is NOT like a fight in a bar. the problem is one of scale. lots of ideas that work in small venues of a few people don't scale up to large ones of struggles between nations of millions and complicated ideological ideas. we like to think of nations in terms of anthropomorphization: uncle sam versus comrade vladislav, mother russia versus father china. but real international struggles are not political cartoons. the flow of power and meaning to constituents of nations functions in a way completely unlike personal sleights in a neighborhood bar
"turn the other cheek" will never ever be the basis for an international policy for any large and powerful country that wants to stay large and powerful. it will work for small unimportant countries, countries whose international plicy don't matter or make any difference in the world, but it will never ever work for the likes of russia, or china, or the usa
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
That "supposedly critical but practically useless mandatory project requirement" is the result of experience. Inexperienced engineers often make the mistake of assuming that if they can't understand why the requirement exists, it must be arbitrary.
Perhaps this is apocryphal, but during the Cold War, submarines would routinely get stuck under polar ice floes. Having a missile which would work when fired from underneath the polar ice was probably a very large concern for the system designers. Had the engineers pointed out the impossibility of this requirement, it is possible that military doctrine would have been changed to reflect the limitations of the technology. If you are correct about the difference between requirements, design, and actual manufacture, then the actions of these engineers (or perhaps bureaucrats) put the entire United States at risk of nuclear holocaust. Had the Soviets known this during the Cold War, they might have been more willing to risk a nuclear confrontation.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
They probably have better records of US nuclear technology than we do.
Let's be honest, Russia's claims of georgian 'genocide' were about as accurate as western europe's claims of serbian ethnic cleansing in kosovo...
Just standard NATO and russia taking political potshots at eachother by getting involved in someone else's civil war.
and those who are hostile and nuclear capable can't reach us.
...yet...
This is exactly why most of the world has an unshakeable conviction that Americans are adolescents. It seems that America has no identity at all if it isn't fighting the perennial "last war", whether it be against Russians, Muslims or others as yet unnamed.
Yup, maybe we shouldn't be refurbishing them at all. Maybe we'll have to go to Congress and ask for hundreds of millions to develop a new one. I can feel funding astroturfing coming on...
It's Rogaine foam formula. It's a hair restoration product and a hair destruction product too!
GOOD! We do not need nuclear weapons! They are probably the saddest thing mankind has ever invented.
Oh, great, you must belong to some religion that believes in reincarnation, right? All your suffering in this life will be repaid in the next?
Because giving bullies an assurance that they can do anything and you will not retaliate is the best way to handle such people. After all, look how well this policy has worked in the past
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Come on, China has stolen every single US military secret since we started keeping records. They have it on file and I think their darknets now support searchable torrents. Just search "USA Trident Missle" and download the ISOs.
In essence they have to re-invent the wheel. A lot of the engineering docs for Apollo are lost to time.
Lets not even talk about the data. Though that is a problem of failing to make media transitions.
Now there's an oxymoron.
NASA is also suffering the same issue with its latest rockets, in that everyone who knew anything about the Apollo missions has left, and they actually had to call in some old engineers to help. I really believe, at least for the space side of things we need to develop a Wiki where are space related technology can be documented. We could worry about some of this technology getting into the hand of a 'rogue nation', but from what I can tell these nations already have access to the technology, one way or another. What they don't necessarily have access to are the funds or the people capable of applying the knowledge.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
So are you saying it's OK to END A LIFE over a nebulous concept like virginity? You are a sick, sick person. We're talking about a LIFE here. Someone's child. You can't just murder them over something as transient as a rape.
Outsource it to India or China, they can manufacture anything.
Russia reached out to Ossetia for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that the vast majority of Ossetia is actually a part of Russia already (called Northern Ossetia) and Russia has been trying to make good with its Caucaus regions like Ossetiya, Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia. Georgians going balls out, pulling GRAD systems to the outskirts of Tskhinvali and raining hell on civilians, gave Russia an opportunity to look like heroes to the local populace, and to swing their military dick to remind the world that the bear is not dead yet. As far as getting involved in someone elses civil wars its the foundation of our military economy :)
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
Politicians come from regular public. Garbage in, garbage out. (who said that?)
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
well, georgians were shelling a sleeping city. it is not an actual genocide but georgians still got what they deserved for that.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
... we don't even know what we're doing !
I knew that IE was kind of a WMD.
But I think they did not forget how to make it. Their developers just died from looking at the code.
What a wonderful day for humanity.
Now we just have to wait until IE8 is rotten to death.
___
Hint to moderators: If you think this is off-topic, you didn't get it.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
"I think if you want to survive, as a nation, the best thing to do in response to a nuclear attack by a terrorist organization would be to STFU and fucking NOT retaliate"
It shows how child-like you are to say such a thing. And that's not a compliment.
The best deterrent to an attack is to let the enemy know that if they attack, they will be destroyed utterly and without delay. I know you think the world is all filled with people who just want to get along and conflict is a result of misunderstanding between people. It's not.
And yes, I realize that you're speaking hypothetically of a terrorist attack. One where they figure out how to build a working A-Bomb and a delivery mechanism. But once you discover the enemy, you must destroy them utterly. Destroy their family, their way of life, everything about them.
Conflict arises when you have something that I want. Land, resources, even ideological differences but they all amount to the same thing. I'm going to compel you to do something or take something from you. And I'm willing to do it because I think you're too weak to resist me.
Do you have any clue why the US and USSR never fought WW III? It's because each side was afraid of the consequences of a war. It was so awful that it was better to yell at each other from a distance and fight some skirmishes than engage in outright war.
As to the "millions have families". Of course they do. Which makes them think really hard about engaging in a war with the United States.
The idea that a good defense is a provocative stance is frankly idiotic. The idea that I will destroy you, your family, your way of life, your lands... everything! if you attack keeps you at a safe distance shouting slogans. That's the way it should be.
I'm sure some shady arms dealer can get them the red mercury they require
At the risk of "escalating" this discussion... ;)
If you want to argue about the size of our arsenal that's one thing. I was responding to the flower child that thinks we should get rid of all of our nuclear weapons -- which is clearly not going to happen under even the rosiest of scenarios.
While I do think that ultimately, it would be nice for total nuclear disarmament of all countries, I did not imply dismantling our entire nuclear stockpile, nor do I think that it's possible to do this tomorrow. I was talking strictly about the missiles and warhead with this problem, which I think most people got when they read my comment. Perhaps you could clarify what I said before dismissing this flower child? :)
My comments come thickly laced with irony so don't take me so seriously as to think I want to debate the merits of a nuclear arsenal with you.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
The article points out that the people with the domain knowledge have either retired or left the agency.
It doesn't say they have died.
We're at war. We could round these people up and insist that they do their duty for Victory.
The American team packed this stuff up and shipped it off to India, they (the American) teams were forced to transition the knowledge, and then they were given 90 days to find new jobs.
The Indian outsourcer initially provided packing foam, which didn't meet project specifications. They took a second pass with aluminum cans, which still didn't work. Then as they tried to correct the problem the whole team to which it was outsourced got better paying jobs and the IP was lost. The division VP claimed victory with a cost reduction and since there were no immediate orders for the foam that couldn't be filled nobody could or would bludgeon him with the reality, that they lost a competency that was mission critical. ;-)
Yes, I'm joking. Doesn't make it untrue.
~Religion is O.K., as long as it gets you laid.
> 'NNSA had lost knowledge of how to manufacture the material because it had kept
> few records of the process when the material was made in the 1980s, and almost
> all staff with expertise on production had retired or left the agency'
Christ, it's called a cash hemorrhage inducement for consultation, and it shouldn't be a problem for a government spending in excess of $3+ trillion a year and growing rapidly. Offering 10 guys a million each to consult would raise the budget barely 0.0003%
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Just ask 5 dentists.
Anybody want a peanut?
So you mean they were accurate ?
Idiot.
We can no longer remember how to make stuff we made 25 years ago. America is indeed getting stupider, not just me.
Fogbank is made from PEOPLE!!!
Cities would seem to be the most viable option, but we'd kill millions of innocents along with the bad guys.
Any adult that sits by idly and permits their government to commit atrocities cannot be considered innocent. We in the U.S. are not innocent of the actions of our government, nor is anyone in any other country regardless of the type of government they have.
The only truly innocent are the children.
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
I'm in Afghanistan right now.
Scorched earth? Not likely. All our efforts are are focussed on either rebuilding Afghan state capacity (police, fire, hospital, army, and government institutions) or on providing security for those rebuilding efforts.
The Afghans scorched their own earth during the civil war that followed the end of the Soviet occupation (and the Soviets gave them a good head start). Al Quaida and the Taliban occupied the law vacuum left by the collapse of the Afghan government.
The tough part about the Afghan mission is attempting to build reliable, non-corrupt government institutions in a land where almost nobody has any experience with a life in a place that is governed by rule of law. That's the major obstacle.
The Afghan mission is marked by its LACK of revenge-based policy. It is Marshall Plan 2 (although not as well funded or manned, to its detriment)
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
After the ossetians spend how many months shelling georgia?
OMG that is soooo funny! Can you imagine what one of the engineers or techs will say when they get that call that their country needs them, and they've been treated like fucking shit?!!! I'd laugh my fucking ass off, and tell them I want a couple of million dollars just to look at the issue with no promise that I'd fix it! Cha-fucking-ching!!!$$$$$$
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43014
Apparently, not only the CIA is affected...
The Yes Prime Minister episode The Grand Design is a required watch. Beautifully explains the absurdities related to nuclear warfare, like nuclear deterrent, what the Last Resort is, why Britain must have nuclear missiles (nope, not against the Russians), and Trident in particular, and what role the Vice President of U.S. plays in it all.
and i walk around solving my problems with that gun
in doing so, i dramatically increase my chance for an early death, due to gun, mine or someone else's, in a thousand different ways
the issue in play is frequent usage of violence to solve problems, not what kind of weapon you have, or if you know how to use it
using your weapon more than you need to merely involves oneself in more violence, which leads one to a much greater chance of early death. on an individual level, it is better to avoid violence altogether, even if that means you submit to someone else's will. simply because, that guy who sublimated you with violence, is probably not going to be around much longer, since ten of his imitators are interested in going to toe to toe with him violently. better to live through ten short-lived tyrants than you yourself turn into a tyrant yourself with your own 15 minutes of fame. in other words: better to simply submit to and avoid the violent, then go toe to toe with them and invite your own quick death due to announcing yourself as a threat that must be violently murdered (since you announced you will not submit, you would rather fight, it becomes necessary to kill you for those interested in power through violence)
so you are wrong. "turn the other cheek" is the best personal approach to survival, in any environment, from leafy peaceful tokyo suburbs, all the way to arid badlands outside mogadishu, and everywhere in between
the meek shall inherit the earth. meaning: those who fight for violence viscerally will burn out quickly, and then more temperate and civilized fights for power can take their rightful place
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
That would mean that scaled up to countries (as we ARE actually talking about entire countries here) a single terrorist act would wipe out the entire country?
Save a couple of examples like Vatican, San Marino, Monaco, Nauru and such - that is simply not a possibility.
So, if you are adjusting other people's analogies - take care.
Oh and... If the rapist declares that after raping YOU that he is going to kill YOU - how does that give you right to take out dozens/hundreds/thousands innocent bystanders when you blow him up?
Ever hear of a knife? Or a gun? Or a kick in the groin?
There ARE alternatives to scorched earth tactics you know.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
"'This is like James Bond destroying his instructions as soon as he has read them,' says John Ainslie, the co-ordinator of the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, adding that 'perhaps the plans for making Fogbank were so secret that no copies were kept."
This is more like Inspector Gadget.
"This message will self-destruct!"
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Well, Hillary Clinton is now our Secretary of State. Does that make snukes an option?
I find it tough to believe that the foam in the W88 is really that different from the foam in the W76. I thought the goal of the foam was to just become completely ionized and become transparent to X-rays? How hard can that really be when a fission weapon is exploding a few feet away.
I imagine there might be some physical characteristics of the foam related to ballistic devices (can handle G's on launch, re-rentry, etc.) but that would be similar across all ballistic weapons.
Unless there is something they aren't telling us ;)
the Chinese. I'm sure they could pull it up from their archives.
To quote Suguido I think:
Over here in Sweden we'd probably respond with new homes for them, food and education for their kids. Then turn our asses up in the air for them to enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94Wyrxj7qvg [youtube.com] / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2qTdFX6thg [youtube.com]
now they will have to spend gazillions of dollars (going from taxpayers pockets to Corporate CEO pockets) working out how to do it - all to save the Glorious Magnificent Perfect US (TM) from Doom and Destruction at the hands of some Truly Evil One (TM) (what colour is his skin today? which religion? which political ideology?).
PS how is the US economy going these days? And the CEOs, they must be suffering too?
A slogan for the US
Who Do You Want to Cower From Today?
The trident can just as easily be armed with the much newer and W88 without any modification and a mating adapter.
That's what she said!
Edith Keeler Must Die
When the world was in a great depression all during the 30s, it certainly kept away the fascists and tyrannical govs that would attack other nations to avoid their own internal issues.
Yeah, I think that it is a wise thing for us to drop our space detection and our nuke missles, because we know that nobody else would dare to build up for war.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
There is speculation that the foam itself is involved in compression of the secondary (through state change into a plasma). Though what you say is probably the actual case, that being x-ray compression of the secondary.
If its true though that this foam is so critical then it tosses a couple of questions up on what people have been speculating.
Kipling said it, and he has been badly paraphrased. Orwell wrote a piece on Kipling, and thought well of Kipling expressing this idea. Here is what Orwell said "He sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them." Orwell in general wasn't keen on Kipling. His article is a good read, though long for some. Kipling's poem that said it best is Tommy.
Rule 37:
There is no overkill.
There is only 'Open fire'
and 'Time to reload'.
"Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
"...refurbish the ageing W76 warheads that tip Trident missiles in order to prolong their life, and ensure they are safe and reliable."? Safe? I can't help but quote Newton Crosby, PhD here: "What's so safe about blowing people up?"
...In the current global climate, there's no point in having nuclear missiles. Those who could strike us are no longer interested and are now allies and those who are hostile and nuclear capable can't reach us.
A few points to bring up:
What color is the sky in your Lets all(ah) Be Friends and Give Peace a Chance World?
There is no such thing as "no longer interested" as long as the US is considered a superpower by anyones definition. Period.
As far as the hostiles not having the capability of reaching us, I was unaware that the NSA/CIA posted on Slashdot, since obviously you've been briefed on that classified bit o' Intel, right?
MAD only works if neither side can stop the other. When one side can take out all your sats, is actively blowing them out of LEO in practice runs, is actively trying to place spies on the other side to gain knowledge as well as be able to shut down infrastructure, then you have a problem AND you are building neutron bombs (which really limit fallout, but causes maximum human damage). Basically, you have a situation where that side is gearing up to attack.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
They "forgot" how to make the Saturn V rocket a couple of decades ago.
Just brilliant. And they say human beings have "autonoetic consciousness" and are truly capable of planning a visit to the head.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
I am reminded of the little contretemps that the Texas dept. of corrections found themselves in with the FDA when they first started using lethal injection to perform their many executions. The FDA's beef was that the potion had not been clinically tested and proven to be "safe and effective". IIRC, the reply was something like, "Can't be both."
This information has probably been sold to the KGB or China long ago. So why don't they just ask?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Seriously, the purpose of Nukes is deterrence: we can't be attacked because we will nuke you. In this case, it is not the nukes that are important, but the appearance of nukes.
You don't need to have the nukes to stop people attacking you, you just need them to all think you have them.
"Right, because russia isn't being beligerant"
Dude, if Russia were beligerREnt, you there would be no 'you'. Gosh, how silly does one have to be to write such nonsense?
"Really? Tell that to Georgia (the european country)."
And your point was...? That Russia and Georgia were allies? Or that Georgia could keep shooting at peacekeepers and shelling separatist villages for as long as it wished if it had nukes? Or you just decided to be consistent in your cluelessness?
... the Chinese can't steal this technology.
-GiH
Idiot
What makes me get up in the morning is WORKING to get what i have.... although a recent divorce makes me think otherwise.... (Karma Dump) I WORK for what i want... need .... (corvettes non included)and i don't want some idiot as of a prez to tell me what i shouldn't have or not......
*--- Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side. ---*
You sound like a girl. No, a woman.
Are you a woman?
...they never recreated Captain America's shield?
Oh, I'm sure some bright tech moved the only remaining digital file over to one of their laptops - you know, the one that disappeared from the front seat of their car while they were having coffee at Denny's and that was never reported missing because they were too embarrassed...
In other news, Iran's and N. Korea's nuclear weapon's capabilities have mysteriously made nearly spontaneous progress...
when you don't comment your code.
He needs to learn his movies James Bond doesn't destroy his instructions after reading them thats the guys in mission impossible.
I'd be really surprised if material scientists haven't already created an adequate replacement since then. It seems like we have a spray on goop for just about any setting/insulating type task.
He probably meant that it was grossly exaggerated by people with dirty political agendas through dirty mass media aimed at people like you. And it worked.
uhm, zero?
"Clashes and shelling between the Georgian and Ossetian forces in early August led to the deaths of six Ossetians and five Georgians; both sides accused the other of opening fire first, in what was the worst violence in years."
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
After all if these things work properly, we won't know much about it, and if they don't work, we won't know much about it.
I suggest they just replace the foam with some sponge rubber and in the event of it not working, let 'em sue.
What the DoD really needs to do to sell upgrades to the nuclear arsenal is introduce a "New, greener, environmentally friendly nuke! Made with 100% recyclable materials! No dangerous, volatile chemicals used in the manufacturing process!" Then we could add it to the stimulus bill as a new, green technology. The Sierra Clubbers would love it!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I'm not surprised at this. I know what will happen next, more Bail Out Money will be spent by the U.S. Government. There will be Senate Hearings, a scape goat will be blamed, another career bureaucrat will lose their job. All because the managers of the Fog Bank invested in Sub-Prime loans. This is old news, even on Cable.
That's pretty much it...
Everything was better in the 80's.
Music, TV, Films.
DISCO-influenced music !!
He was a thief. Other people who actually work for a living do not take from those around them.
That said, it would be better if people didn't take more than they need. And our society often does marginalize people and make them poor (I'm not totally sure why). This achieved through government action, mandated by the middle class. I'm sure the wealthy would do it if they had the political power.
This has got to be a joke.. We couldn't have lost the classified documentation on this.. Skills, sure, but knowledge?
If we have, god help us.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
There is a project at LLNL, called that Nuclear Weapons Information Project, whose purpose is archive all data related to nuclear weapons warhead design. Unfortunately the group doesn't have very good oversight.
This is a somewhat daunting task as much, perhaps most, of the data is in paper documents that aren't indexed other than by title, often abbreviated, entered into an archaic database without an abstract. Additionally, all of the weapons designers from the pre-test ban treaty era have either retired or died. So the archiving process isn't happening in cooperation with the original authors.
The actual archiving process isn't being performed by individuals with any experience in long-term data preservation, leading to classic mistakes such as archiving to DVD+R media without regards to quality of the purchased media nor its usable lifespan, or the file format being being based upon an open standard. I sent the group a NIST study on optical media reliability, and it didn't seem to be taken into account.
NWIP is just one of the many cluster-fuck of a projects I observed during my tenure at LLNL. This is what happens when you dump money down a black hole that operates in a vacuum of no oversight. Government isn't necessarily bad - Government without independent oversight often is.
You do realize that the Georgians have been there a lot longer than the Ossetians, right?
Oh, you didn't?
They shouldn't have revoked that scientist's H1 Visa. It is going to be a bitch tracking him down in India now.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
I mean here we have a bunch of people who are rocket scientists (ok missiles) and nuclear physcists and they don't document and comment. The lesson they'll probably take out of it looking at those guys is "Hey, not only is it ok not to document but if they're not doing it that must mean it's actually a great idea."
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
I don't see any reason not to blame all of the deaths resulting from this conflict on the party which began it. That a small percentage of those deaths is caused by bullets from US soldiers should not be reassuring in any way. The current situation in Iraq is the product of voluntary and capricious action by the United States. This includes the high levels of violence we've seen, regardless of who is perpetrating that violence or their motivations.
This is a clear disadvantage that closed or classified research and development has as opposed to open exchange of ideas. When we are researching how to kill people efficiently, we get so scared that other people might find out our knowledge and use it to kill us that we are in danger of forgetting the knowledge ourselves.
... I'm not really convinced this is a bad thing.
"What do you think would happen, if the USA came to Iran, offering them huge school and economy development support?"
They would take the money, and then make fun of us for being weak. It's the way the world works. It's the way nation-states behave. Look at North Korea. Their people are starving to death, but to take aid from the west (or east for that matter) is to admit weakness, it lets in influences from the outside. Their leader would rather starve them to death than admit they were wrong.
In the case of Iran, the US could go to Iran and offer them development support if they stopped making atomic bombs and opened their nuclear sites to U.N. inspections. You get something, I get something. But Iran has so far resisted such attempts. Their leaders recognize that if they open their borders, it eventually will get rid of the parasitic ruling class in Iran. So until the people in Iran get rid of those people, I say no money, no food, no nothing. Then the people will rise up or starve. In the end, we achieve what we require.
I'm not sure what type of anti-ship missile you're referring to, but aircraft carriers have computer-controlled mini-guns mounted to defend against air-to-surface missiles. I would assume the same could work for these battleships.
Seth
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Okay, they forgot how to manufacture one component of a nuclear weapon. Now can they forget the rest of them?
...that even I don't know what I'm doing.
What a bunch of dumb-asses.
"I thought the goal of the foam was to just become completely ionized and become transparent to X-rays? How hard can that really be when a fission weapon is exploding a few feet away."
I assume pretty hard if you're trying to become a lens to *focus* those X-rays, and do it within nanoseconds while in the process of being destroyed.
"Unless there is something they aren't telling us ;)"
A nuclear power withholding detailed descriptions of how their mega-kill-bombs work? Unpossible.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
When you read some of the background material on this (http://www.banthebomb.org/newbombs/fogbank%20material.doc) you find:
Fogbank is like part of the "interstage" between the fission primary and the thermonuclear secondary. Design contraints for the W76 make the use of exotic aerogels such as Fogbank necessary. The need to recycle and refurbish the warheads past their design lifetime require use to deal these materials again and again.
Fogbank was likely only produced at one place the Y-12 facility at Oak Ridge TN.
Fogbank was produced at Building 9404-11 from the mid '70 to 1989. The Building 9404-11 was decomissioned and a new "Purification Facility" at building 9420-1 was finally constructed from 2003 until 2006.
The need to produce more Fogbank was likely found relative to the W76 warhead in 1996 to 1999 review when the life extension of the W76 was deemed the thing to do.
There are those who would like the production of a reliable replacement weapon (RRW) which would (or could) bypass the need for Fogbank.
The nuclear genie can't be put back in the bottle and these difficult decisions will continue for decades. The nuclear programs in Iran and North Korea and who knows where else will just continue the problems.
In contrast we don't operate Nike missle batteries anymore with acceptable US civilian casualty rates of 25% in San Francisco, New York, Philadelphi, Pittsburgh....
I once sat in on a meeting involving the Georgian speaker of parliament. One of her aides related to my boss the saying they have in Georgia about Stalin and Beria: "Yes, they were terrible, but they did kill a lot of Russians..."
In any case, Georgia putting down a separatist movement armed & funded by the Russians within its own territory is entirely different than Russia invading and occupying Georgia, a sovereign country.
The Rise and Fall of Online Community
damnations!
"DESTROY BEFORE READING".
... we lost the Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator. No earth-shattering KABOOM today."
Fat Man, the plutonium bomb dropped on Nagasaki, fissioned perhaps 20% of the plutonium, and converted around 1 GRAM of that mass into energy. The fission products and unfissioned plutonium came down as radioactive fallout.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_Man
Little Boy, the uranium bomb dropped on Hiroshima, was even less efficient.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Obama: "You forgot the recipe? Inconceivable!"
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1147437&cid=27056793 what's this about you admitting to posting here under multiple registered accounts and using them to harass others here, and also your using your multiple accounts to mod yourself up with then? I saw your history of posts on this website and it appears you are being dealt with as forcefully as is possible online and you are the one attacking others here and now you have to deal with it being sent your way in return. Serves you right.
I see you are now impersonating me at the forums @ 4chan.org, by registering as myself there & posting excerpts of my posts here @ slashdot (some in their original form and altered ones as well from other sites also).
Bad move: That is just going to make me go to 4chan.org's hosting provider and have them remove it, & if that fails, I will employ the local law enforcement in their area to do so and to prosecute you as well, & strangely I think it's going to go FEDERAL pal. By the way - I've had to do this before to a Mr. Jeremy Reimer and Mr. Jay Little of arstechnica, who had their websites @ CrystalTech.com & petitiononline.com removed in their entirety or in large portions):
http://dis.4chan.org/read/prog/1235936964/1-40
I came across this impersonation of myself online (via cuts & pastes of my posts here) right after I posted about Windows VISTA, Server 2008, & Windows 7 removing port filtering and also making it impossible to use a 0 inside of a HOSTS file to block out bad IP addresses. -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1143349&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=27012231
This impersonation of myself "oddly" seems to have happened only after when I also caught one of your own here @ slashdot, "The End of Days" -> http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1147437&cid=27056793 caught admitting to using multiple registered accounts to "mod himself up" here and to use those same registered accounts to mod down others (on top of his use of ac submissions as well to also make it appear he has further supporters).
The "The End of Days": I would be a bit worried now were I you, because now it's out of my hands @ this point, & you're the only person who might have any reason to do so. Now, I will just go to the hosting provider involved for that website to take care of it, & if I get resistance of any kind, I will prosecute yourself, and any others involved, to the fullest extent of the law.
Next, it's law enforcement who will be contacted, for both libel & criminal impersonation (or whatever charges it carries - you only brought this on yourself, again, as per usual).
APK
It was outsourced to the Chinese during the Clinton administration -- and they won't tell us how to do it!