Moving Away From the IT Field?

irving47 writes 'With the economy the way it is, it's a little iffy to even think about switching careers completely, but lately, I've gotten more and more fed up with trying to keep up with the technical demands of companies and customers that are financially and even verbally unappreciative. While I might be good at it, and the money is adequate, I'm curious to hear from Slashdotters who have gone cold-turkey from their IT/Networking careers to something once foreign to them. How did you deal with the income difference, if any? Do you find yourself dealing with people more, and if so, how did that work out?'

Comments

I'd never do it, but

[Lord Kano]

you might want to think about nursing. My ex-wife was an RN and she made really good money right out of college.

You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money.

LK

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

To become an RN takes 4-5 years of school. If you go and get one of those quick certificates, you will be doing nothing but cleaning up poop for very little money. They keep saying they need all kinds of medical people, but when I went to unemployment last and asked about them paying for me to go back to school for nursing they told me that they wouldn't pay for that because nurses and other medical personal were getting laid off left and right.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[int69h]

The money is decent, especially if you're willing to travel. You do have to keep your skillset up to date in order to keep your license. From what I can tell there's quite a bit of fraud involved though, especially in home health and rehabs, so CYOA.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Profane MuthaFucka]

I hadn't thought of that. I just LOVE to clean up poop. In fact, I'll sit there waiting, watching, anticipating, ready to catch it before it can fall onto the mattress. I'm perfect for that job, and I'll even do it for free.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Fluffeh]

I moved from IT to the business of the same organization. I still deal (in a much smaller aspect) with the IT department, but do so working as a business analyst. From a HR point of view, it's great because I am able to REALLY talk to the business about what they want and whether it is plausible, and I am able to make excellent requirements that the IT folks can follow and not cock up because they are too vague to really know what is wanted.

Oh, also, within a year of moving over, my salary was around 25% higher than it was when I was on the IT side of the fence.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Lord_of_the_nerf]

A friend of mine went into trades - just picked up a mature aged apprenticeship and become a fantastically rich electrician. Seems like the geekiest trade to pick up. There's a demand for qualified electricians in Australia at the moment from what I can see, but I'm not sure if it's a worldwide trend.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

That's sarcasm done right. Not aimed at anyone in particular, not nasty or obvious, sustained and persistent to the end. Good work muthafucka.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Lord Kano]

Where I live, electricians can make a decent living but the guys who really clean up hold a regular job and do side work on evenings and weekends.

LK

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Lord Kano]

Where I live, we have a very big senior population. Hospitals are some of the biggest employers around here. Even when they need to close a hospital, all of the employees are needed at other locations.

LK

Re:I'd never do it, but

[wisty]

If you want to travel, ESL (English as a second language) teaching is great. 20 hours a week teaching (plus prep time), you see your work being used (as the students get better at English), interesting co-workers. If you know (or want to learn) a foreign language, it's a great opportunity.

The best thing is - minimal office politics. There's you, a class, and maybe a head teacher telling you what to do. Co-ordination meetings, blame games, and clueless managers are hard to find. You still have a boss (and work policies), but the soft crap is mostly between you and your students.

Income is much lower in China (where I am), but so are costs. Great news if you have savings and no debts. Other countries have higher pay.

I wouldn't advise it to anyone with a superiority complex (they make poor teachers), or anyone who hates the idea of living overseas, but otherwise, it's a blast.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny you should mention that. I've been a programmer for about 15 years, and I just got accepted to nursing school.

I'll be taking a cut of about 40% off my current salary as a contractor. That's in addition to having student loans to repay, and being out of work for a year while I get my BSN. Yet I expect I'll be a lot happier and doing something important with my life.

Plus after civilization collapses in the coming zombie apocalypse, I'll be able to barter my health care skills for survival, while programmers will be a useless load due to the lack of electricity.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Bull.
If you have a degree already, you can enter a full-time accelerated program, and one year later have your bachelor's degree in nursing and become an RN. Even if all you have is a high school diploma, you can get a two-year associate's degree, and yes, still become an RN.

And nurses aren't being laid off anywhere in the US. In fact, there is a significant shortage. Some hospitals are hiring new nursing graduates and paying off their student loans (to the tune of $50k or more!) in exchange for a promise to work at the hospital for at least a year.

Maybe things are different elsewhere in the world, but in the US in 2009, nursing is about the most secure career you could have.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[CarpetShark]

you might want to think about nursing.

You've obviously never been treated by a nurse who was in the job for the wrong reasons. Please don't ever SUGGEST nursing to people, unless they demonstrate a genuine compassion, patience, and willingness to help others even on their worst days.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[EQ]

To become an RN takes 4-5 years of school.

No, speaking as a soon-to--be former IT guy, going from BS/BA to BS-RN takes 2 years. Here in Colorado, several universities have an accelerated program, as long as you can hit the pre-reqs in science (mainly anat & phys, microbiology, pathophysiology) and math (dead simple stuff, not even close to engineering calculus). So no, not 4 years, maybe one year at night nailing down the biology courses, then 2 years full time learning the RN. There are even hospitals that will reimburse your tuition as long as you work 4000 hours (~2 years) for them upon graduation.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[polar red]

while programmers will be a useless load due to the lack of electricity.

solar panels ? windturbines ?

Re:I'd never do it, but

[swamp_ig]

You also might want to think about becomming a doctor.

I'm just about to finish my med degree after four years of study. The money is good and you're in demand everywhere.

You do have to poke poop sometimes, but very rareley need to clean it up, and in all honesty the gross stuff doesn't bother you in the slightest after the first few times.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[MaliciousSmurf]

Ah, apologies. This is sarcasm done right. Subtle, almost impossible to call out as cruel, and anonymous. Good work, mother fucker.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[TheLink]

That's very true.

But for a similar reason I find it stupid that "everyone" keeps promoting IT to people who would not normally consider it.

Plenty of other jobs, especially jobs that can't be outsourced to India or Vietnam or wherever on somebody's whim.

Hairstylists and plumbers aren't going away or going to be outsourced any time soon.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Antiocheian]

I understand spending a few skill points on "Small Guns" in the future, but keep in mind that when you find the Glow your programming skills should then come in very handy.

Of course your current "First Aid" improvement is a wise choice.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[hrvatska]

In my area (central NY state) lots of nurses have two year degrees. My wife, an RN with over 30 years experience, is of the opinion that the local community college's nursing graduates come out of school better prepared than any of the area universities granting BS degrees in nursing. What really matters is whether a nurse has passed the board exam to become a Registered Nurse. At that point it doesn't matter whether a nurse has a two or four year degree, they're all RNs and they all get paid the same. Where the BS degree matters is if a person wants to go into the management side of nursing. Hospitals are increasingly requiring a masters degree to enter the management side of nursing. Since a BSN is generally required to get an MSN, if you think you are interested in management go the BSN route. And I don't know what it's like in the rest of the country, but around here a nurse with at least one year of experience has no problem getting a decent paying job. I suspect it's true in many other areas too, judging by the amount of nurse recruitment junk mail my wife regularly receives. Nursing is not for everyone, though. Aside from all the shit, vomit, blood and other bodily fluids, I would not do well at the people side of nursing. Lots and lots of people problems to deal with. I don't think I could put up with it.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Genda]

And this is different than high level technical support in what way???

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Aggrajag]

I changed from IT to nursing and haven't regretted the switch. And yes,
the job does include poop cleaning (and really nasty stuff especially
if you specialize to become a paramedic) but you get used to anything.

Why would one become a nurse? If you like interacting with people and
are prepared to help them when they *really* need help then the job
might be what you are looking for.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[digitalchinky]

I have a few friends teaching English in Taiwan. The government does not provide working permits for 'English teachers', it's an illegal profession, good money though - expect to have to do a runner or hide out about every other month or so as the government sends out their surprise inspection teams. Sometimes more often, schools will routinely file reports on competing schools in their area.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[vlm]

Hairstylists and plumbers aren't going away or going to be outsourced any time soon.

"Insourced" Habla espanol. The key is to find a position where the job can't be sent to China or the worker can't be imported from Mexico. Mostly, this seems to revolve around sales, management, some medical (not all), some education (certainly not all), organized crime/politics and marketing. Anything else?

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm an ex-IT guy teaching English in China and I know several others. It is definitely not for everyone, but great for some.

A decent online overview of the field is at http://wikitravel.org/en/Teaching_English

Re:I'd never do it, but

[int69h]

You can add the skilled trades that require licensing electrician, plumber, etc.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

you might want to think about nursing. My ex-wife was an RN and she made really good money right out of college.

You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money.

LK

How is that different from an IT job? I've have to deal with BS from people and kiss ass every day.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[skiman1979]

you might want to think about nursing. My ex-wife was an RN and she made really good money right out of college.

You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money.

LK

Yeah, especially if it's my infant daughter creating the mess! That stuff hit the wall, the privacy curtain, floor... It took a team of 5 nurses to clean it all up! I wonder if someday my daughter will join Slashdot and read this... :-D

Re:I'd never do it, but

[jargon82]

Until the teleporter is invented. Then we'll all be jobless.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[apmonte]

you might want to think about nursing.

You've obviously never been treated by a nurse who was in the job for the wrong reasons. Please don't ever SUGGEST nursing to people, unless they demonstrate a genuine compassion, patience, and willingness to help others even on their worst days.

I'd also suggest that you get out of IT unless you have a genuine passion for helping a company make the most of it's IT resources. And by that, I mean helping to make its user community make the most of its IT resources. (The user community IS the company) To many admins could care less about the end users (My brother calls them DFU's) and lock computers down to the point that it's very had to do our jobs. (And we hate you for it) When my IT department makes it harder to do my job, (blame it on company policy if it makes you feel better) I'm less inclined to do my job. Provide us with the tools (both hardware and software) to do our jobs more effectively and listen to feedback from the user community. Otherwise, please get out of the field.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, I'm in IT and I clean up poop all the time! If it's poop you want, stay in IT!! Who you tryin' to kid?

Re:I'd never do it, but

[WgT2]

Even if all you have is a high school diploma, you can get a two-year associate's degree, and yes, still become an RN.

That might not be the case in every state.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[LinuxAndLube]

We'll be programming the zombies. No electricity needed.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

sound like working in IT to me!

=)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[RemoWilliams84]

Do you really think all of these unemployed people are going to the hospitals with no insurance?

I live in north Alabama (I know, ha ha) and we have one of highest unemployment rates in the nation. Hospitals are laying off nurses. The ones that aren't getting laid off are having hours cut back, vacations cut back, 401k dropped, pay cuts, no raises, etc.

My mother-in-law is an RN with 15+ years of experience and has seen all of these things(except being laid-off) happen to her. Many of her co-workers are being laid off also. It may not be happening in every state. But I imagine all of the states with high unemployment rates are seeing similar results.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[tom17]

I'd love to do this. I have a pretty keen interest and strong grounding in basic electronics (plenty advanced enough for, say, residential). When I landed in Canada a few years ago, I pretty much learnt the electrical code cover to cover, it is easy. I was planning on taking the exam and getting my licence.

Then I saw the requirement of an insane amount of 'apprentice hours' needed to get the licence, not just the exam. It would mean leaving my well paid IT job and living on peanuts for 4-5 years. It's something we, as a family, just cannot afford right now. If I was to try to get the apprentice hours on evenings & weekends, 1. I would have no time with my family and 2. it would take me way too long. I am already 36 :(

If only there was a way round it. I would love to do electrical contracting (I think)

Tom...

Re:I'd never do it, but

[drsmithy]

Please don't ever SUGGEST nursing to people, unless they demonstrate a genuine compassion, patience, and willingness to help others even on their worst days.That is to say, unless they're pretty much the antithesis of the average Slashdotter. :)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I am working in China too, but I'm a lead programmer in a games company, sort of an emergency hire. Pay is high (even by western standards) but the politics is murder. But I assure you, you learn a foreign language much faster when dealing with "Co-ordination meetings, blame games, and clueless managers" and you have to use it to save your arse.

I wouldn't advise it to anyone.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Cro Magnon]

You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money

That's what they told me about IT!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting that you would differentiate between the IT operations of a business and the Business of that business. Both IT recruiters and IT hardware advertisers would have you believe IT is the business's business. I happen to agree with your move and am planning the same for myself.

Computers are the punchpresses of the 21st century. You'll need fewer and fewer IT people to do more and more. It's a dead end for most. Luckily, Open Source (I use FreeBSD at home) lets me get my "gotta-constantly-break-and-fix-and-improve-my-computer" addiction satisfied using almost the same environment I would at a large company, other than scale. I don't have to struggle with Tandem Non-Stops and then relax by editing CONFIG.SYS a hundred times. Congrats on your move and good luck.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[stamour547]

I don't know where you live but here in NY, you can be a full RN in 2 years. 4-5 (if i'm not mistaken) will make you to be a nurse practitioner and that's where there is really good money. 3 years in school will make you an PA, not to bad monetarily around here either.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[MBGMorden]

I'm sure this may vary by location, but around here you only have to be licensed to pick up the permits - who actually ends up doing the work is irrelevant. End result is that it's not all that uncommon to have a licensed contractor (be it electrical, plumbing, or anything else) who bids on jobs, applies for the permits, and handles all the paperwork, but all the actual work is being done by illegals. He takes a risk in that their work still has to pass inspection, but it's still something that happens. Moreso in things like masonry and drywall, but we've seen the same happen in the other disciplines too.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[j-pimp]

And nurses aren't being laid off anywhere in the US. In fact, there is a significant shortage.

Very true. My girlfriend is a physical therapist from the Philippines. She came to the US on a H1 Visa. Several of her classmates came here on Hi visas. Two of her cousins are nurses. They both got instant green cards. One left for England.

If you want to be able to work anywhere in the world, become a nurse.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

"genuine compassion, patience, and willingness to help others" sounds like every IT guy I know!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[mrboyd]

Hey I tried to install windows 7 alpha but now my computer doesn't work? I have a problem with my computer since I installed mega-zob-toolbar; please fix it. My kid gave me Adobe CS12 Mega Ultra Designer Pack-DOMINO-REPACK-XXXX to edit that PDF can I have admin right to install it? Hey, I've been trying to send that DVD by email for the last three days but it doesn't work and by the way the email server is very slow. Oh that? That's my home wifi router so I can work from the rec room. Really?? This Azureus software prevents other people from working? I can't see why. Hey IT guy why do you pretend it's my statistical report that i made myself in access that slows the database? I'm not even using the database; only access. Why won't you let us send .exe file by email!!!! THIS IS A BUSINESS REQUIREMENT!!!! You're working AGAINST the business!!!

Granted some admins go overboard. But users are a pain in the ass.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[EQ]

Do you really think all of these unemployed people are going to the hospitals with no insurance?

I live in north Alabama (I know, ha ha) and we have one of highest unemployment rates in the nation. Hospitals are laying off nurses. The ones that aren't getting laid off are having hours cut back, vacations cut back, 401k dropped, pay cuts, no raises, etc.

Definitely not the case in Colorado/Wyoming and the mountain west - there's still an RN shortage. I thought Huntsville Alabama would be doing OK with all the Defense/Redstone/NASA stuff there.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[AmericanGladiator]

My wife is an RN with several years of experience. She dropped down to a "casual" basis from a regular appointment and they recently decided at her hospital that casuals were going to be laid off. Technically, because she has skills that other nurses don't (I.C.U.), she can still pick up hours, but being pregnant they don't want her to work anywhere near anyone with H1N1, so hours are hard to come by.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[commodore64_love]

How about a job at Walmart? #1 store in America with billions of dollars to spread-around to their staff.
And as that guy in American Beauty said, "I want the least amount of responsibility possible." Just enjoy life.

;-) Actually if that's your goal but you still want a good income, go for the technician jobs or the CAD jobs. Technicians/CAD operators have it fairly easy since they just do whatever the higher-level engineers tell them to do, and it's the engineers who get blamed when things go wrong, not the techs. So you're basically just a cog in the machine, who happily earns lots of money.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[COMON$]

Damn where the hell are my mod points :) someone mod this guy up.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Penguinisto]

The best thing is - minimal office politics. There's you, a class, and maybe a head teacher telling you what to do. Co-ordination meetings, blame games, and clueless managers are hard to find.

...wanna bet? I'm speaking as a former CompSci instructor who had to deal with school districts, the Utah Board of Regents, some uber-clueless collegiate administrators, and to top that off, a colleague with few technical skills, but one hell of a penchant for back-stabbing. Fortunately, the latter was easy enough to handle, but the former three were raging nightmares, and could make your life a living hell at the slightest whim.

I still remember when an exceptionally bright student I had, decided that he really liked taking narcotics (turns out that it's pretty common means for a kid to rebel against his/her strict Mormon family). He came in and spoke to me one day after he'd missed class. I made the (political) mistake of discreetly bringing a counselor in to get him some help, since this was something that was way over my head, and he needed the help. Less than an hour later, I was taking a drug test myself and getting hammered with questions by the superintendents because I was, and I quote: "too much of an influence" on my students. Later that year, a student decided that one of the lab servers was a great place to stash some ripped movies so he could share it with his friends at home (Kazaa was pretty new at the time). I spent three hours trying to explain to the superintendents that it was easily taken care of, the offending material was removed, and the MPAA take-down notice was satisfied as soon as the school received it (the files were up for less than 24 hours). I took two weeks' vacation to avoid being suspended, and the student got summarily thrown out for the rest of the semester.

I stuck it out about two years after that, and while the BS died down a lot over that time, eventually funding cuts wiped out seven teaching positions, mine included. The (IMPO) less- technically competent colleague was shifted to an administrative position, and the last CompSci instructor (who was within two years of retirement at the time) got to keep his.

Trust me - I prefer working out here in IT. At least it's the devil I know, and the salary more than makes up for it in most cases.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[COMON$]

Along these lines, Pharmacy is a great profession as well. The world needs more good analytical pharmacists, sure some are about as useful as a bean counter but pharmacists are getting more responsibilities every day. The program is 4-5 years (3 academic years, 1 year of rotations, 1 year residency which is optional right now). The breadth of the position is about as broad as MDs, and is better suited for the squeemish. You still have to deal with users, "I have to stick the pill where?". My wife switched professions to pharmacy, is a P3 right now and the pay is insane, my buddy made about 130K straight out of college and only worked 9 months that year.

Since you will be a non-traditional there are several programs that you can do over the net (recorded lectures and live sessions), that are just as good as sitting in a classroom and dont require you to relocate. Several of my wife's classmates are over 40 so it isnt too bad of a switch.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[EvilBudMan]

--You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money.--

Most of time if you are an RN an LPN or Nursing Assistant does that. The economy is even starting to affect that. I would say if you have a stable job, keep it.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[sharkbiter]

You left out "I opened that viral e-mail attachment just like you told me not to".

Re:I'd never do it, but

[kd5zex]

I was on a job in Western Australia back in '06 - '07 and was offered several electrician jobs with offers ranging from 100K - 140K AUD per year. The work I was offered was a"fly-in, fly-out" affair usually 2-3 weeks on site then 2-3 weeks at home.

Granted it was really hot and the work was in remote locations it would be well suited for a qualified person without any obligations at home.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[COMON$]

Programmers were around long before electricity, see looms to start with.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[lwsimon]

Its been about five years since I was in the field, but that was the case for electricians in NW Arkansas. One master electrician, a couple of apprentices, and the other 5-10 people on the team were typically illegals.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[mdarksbane]

I'm often sort of curious what the average background of most immigrant workers like that are. Do people with years of masonry experience pick up and head to the US to seek their fortunes or is it more just a bunch of young guys who can follow directions?

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

add the skilled trades that require licensing electrician, plumber, etc.

Good luck getting indentured as an apprentice if you don't have a good friends or family member already in the business.

The two big organizations that can give out Department of Labor approved apprenticeships are the IBEW (Union) and ABC (non-union). I have been trying for over two years to get an apprenticeship with either. I keep going for the interviews and then when there is a bunch of hiring I get passed over.

I am part of a few web boards filled with people like me trying to get apprenticeships and over the months and years it becomes obvious who gets indentured and who doesn't. The people with friends and families get indentured. If you don't have a foot in the door you are pretty much screwed. It is very very much an old boys network.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[artemis67]

An oldie but a goodie...

The website is down

Re:I'd never do it, but

[MBGMorden]

Seems mostly the latter, but that's true even for the companies that hire citizens too. My dad works as a drywall foreman, and they'll end up hiring a mix - some experienced guys, some guys with absolutely no training (they don't hire illegals though). The guys with no experience start only at minimum wage. Some of the more experienced guys will tell them what to do at first. Typically they start out on the simpler tasks - on drywall this being things like "hanging" (affixing to the wall) or especially sanding. Finishing (puttying the screw holes and seams) is a bit tougher and so they don't start there until they've been doing they other stuff for a good while. If they express interest in finishing they'll sometimes let them start practicing a bit in an inconspicuous area - a closet or something where any mistakes they make won't be as visible.

If after 3 or 4 months the person seems to be catching on they'll keep them and let them start doing different things as time goes on. If they don't appear to have a knack for it then they'll let them go. Either way though it's a job that people seem to get into pretty often without any formal training - just on the job. I'd suspect that many illegals end up the same way. Start out simple, and if they work out then they stay. Whether here or there everybody has to start somewhere.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

there is a serious staff shortage in kansas and missouri due to illness (flu, some h1n1). they are making APNs and other non-floor nurses work an extra shift on the floor to make up for the acute and chronic shortages.

i think you're in the wrong state!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[that IT girl]

Hardware technicians are always going to have to be local, too. Of course, you're often working for the same type of companies and being treated as badly as the IT guys, but if you know your way around the inside of a PC, a printer, even just the basics of physical networking infrastructure, there's a market for those skills too.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in... I'm an ISP Net Engineer, so not directly I.T. but i'm still immersed in routers, switches, servers, miles of cat5 and fiber etc... and we all love it here. We all get interesting projects that we get to see through to completion, we get to play with crazy expensive lasers and test equipment, our managers are pretty cool, and very appreciative. Lots of positive reinforcement when we get things done. Maybe all you disgruntled I.T. guys should beef up on routing and RF technology and come on over! Also due to the country moving more and more to broadband we are hiring pretty steadily.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[ae1294]

organized crime/politics

Oh! hey I've been wanting to get into organized crime for awhile now. Not so much the politics just the crime part... Do you know a recruiter I can speak with about my unique skill sets and what positions might be open?

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Voyager529]

Users *can* be a pain. Where I work though, there's an extremely small chance that a situation like this would happen.

Hey I tried to install windows 7 alpha but now my computer doesn't work?

Our company machines require a password to boot from anything but the hard drive. This user would be more likely to call me about getting it installed rather than asking for support after the fact. Even if he somehow managed to guess the password, the fact that he had to do so likely indicates that he's not going to be calling my helpdesk to get support for it, and the fact that he can't log into the domain to access his documents or e-mail means that his machine would be re-imaged by lunchtime.

I have a problem with my computer since I installed mega-zob-toolbar; please fix it.

We have a corporate antivirus to help reduce attacks like that, but if they fail, then this is part of my job. Most users, realizing that it takes significant amounts of time away from their productivity, tend to ask what they can do to avoid it in the future. The majority of virus attacks I get are based on ignorance, not malice.

My kid gave me Adobe CS12 Mega Ultra Designer Pack-DOMINO-REPACK-XXXX to edit that PDF can I have admin right to install it?

First, a quick google search shows that DOMiNO releases DVD rips of movies and isn't a software release group. That said, the majority of the users at work will call me if they need help editing the PDF file in the first place, not asking for help installing 5 DVDs and running a keygen. They know their coworkers can do it, and if they need Acrobat installed on their machines and don't have it, they know that all it takes is a phone call to my desk and I'm going to work on solving their problem.

Hey, I've been trying to send that DVD by email for the last three days but it doesn't work and by the way the email server is very slow.

This one I could technically see happening, but AFAIK the only person here who uses ISO files is me. On a more generic note (i.e. sending stupidly large files via e-mail), our Exchange server has a 10MB limit; users who try to e-mail something larger than that will instantly get a failure message. If they do genuinely need to send that large file, I can arrange for that file to sit on an FTP server so that all the recipient has to do is click the download link. If they don't really need to send the file, then, well, they're not going to call.

Oh that? That's my home wifi router so I can work from the rec room.

Our building has encrypted wi-fi already. The people who need it access it, and if someone starts needing it, you guessed it, they know to call. Even if my building didn't have wireless, if they can see it so can I. We don't have live ethernet jacks anywhere they shouldn't be, so if it's underneath their desk, it's a trivial matter to track down a linksys router. From there, I'd present my case to my boss as to why we shouldn't have wireless access here (or why we should, but at least done properly), and let her decide what she wants me to do about it.

Really?? This Azureus software prevents other people from working? I can't see why.

I haven't had to deal with this one yet, either. About the worst issue I've had so far with regards to bandwidth is that half my office uses Pandora or something similar. Still, our internet speeds are acceptable, I take a peek at our gateway's traffic log to see if there's any high-volume traffic going through abnormal ports, and so far so good. Should this become an issue, I have a supervisor that makes the decision as to what should be done about it.

Hey IT guy why do you pretend it's my statistical report that i made myself in access that slows the database? I'm not even using the database; only access.

A clear, simple explanation usually curbs this one. The majori

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Coren22]

I'm not quite sure, but I think AC was actually being serious, not sarcastic. The user's name is muthafucka.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong (my name is Sheri) ... I've been unemployed in IT since Feb. '09. I no longer have my hair cut or highlighted by my stylist who charged 50 for a cut and 100 for highlighting. I had my hair cut once so far by a friend. I will go with $15/20 cuts and let my grey grow in.

In terms of a plumber ... We'll only use him for emergencies. If I had a job, I'd use him to correct a slow running faucet.

Few people are actually immune from this horrible economy whose true u.i. figures are consistently under-reported. Even the nursing field is being hit by imports. I saw it and talked about it with them when I ended up in the hospital for a week last December!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[jpcarter]

How long will that last for? The old workhorse printers like the HP LJ 4000 seem to be replaced with disposable printers that are cheaper to junk than repair. That's not true of all printers and equipment, but if the current trend keeps up, IMO it doesn't seem like a good career choice for someone still in the earlier part of their career.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[HungWeiLo]

Half of my extended family are pharmacists, and I'm quite sure the money was a big motivating factor in their decision to become pharmacists. They, and many countless others like them, really hate their jobs despite the easy 6-figure paychecks (and oftentimes 5-figure signing bonuses). In retail, they say you only do 2 things all day long - answer the same questions about the same 3 drugs and be on hold with the insurance company rep. They all eventually took large pay cuts to work in a hospital setting, versus working in Walgreens where the good money is.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[harmonise]

None of what you posted has anything to do with teaching English in a foreign country and therefore isn't relevant to the item you quoted.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Ritchie70]

Auto mechanics in the lower-skilled places at least (muffler shops, quick lubes) work like this too.

It isn't formal apprenticeship by any means but there are similarities.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[jtheisen]

You've obviously never been treated by a sys admin who was in the job for the wrong reasons. Please don't ever SUGGEST IT to people, unless they demonstrate a genuine compassion, patience, and willingness to help others even on their worst days.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[BitZtream]

The key is to find a position where the job can't be sent to China or the worker can't be imported from Mexico.

You realize you just ruled out every single job in existence right?

Both Chinese and Mexicans are more than capable of doing EVERYTHING an American can do. Second generations immigrents born here generally speak better english than most Americans who have been here for several generations.

Whats best about it all is they have actually had hard lives most of the time so they don't have their head up their asses expecting to get paid a ridiculous amount of money for a trivial job.

If you want to prevent outsourcing or 'insourcing', drop the entitlement additude, stop demanding pay levels you don't deserve, and put in a fair days work.

When spoiled brats compete against people who have experienced true hardship, the brats will lose, EVERY TIME. As an American, in IT, I can say for a fact, we are completely spoiled brats.

By law, Americans must make more in one hour than many far harder working people in the rest of the world make in a month, how do you ever think you can compete against those people?

I despise illegal immigration. I say we start shooting illegal immigrants on site. I however have no problem with the legal immigrants who come to America and 'take American jobs'. Come to America, take my job because you are better and cheaper, then they aren't the problem, I am. I am not an immigrant, but one of my grandfathers was, and one of them was a native American. Makes it rather hard for me, as a sane minded person to have a problem with someone doing the same thing my grandfather did that put me where I am today.

Of course, being spoiled, you wouldn't understand that.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Atomm]

.....unless they demonstrate a genuine compassion, patience, and willingness to help others even on their worst days.

Don't worry though.... Much like a person who gets into politics with good intentions, they too will become jaded just like the rest of their coworkers.....

I'd like to make another comment. I'm a network engineer and my wife is an RN, 10+ years. I know first hand that IT can be thankless and people look at you as a blue collar worker there to do their bidding. But in Nursing, it's worse. People expect you to be their Nurse, Doctor, Waiter, Grief Counselor, Social Worker and clean up their poop. Nursing may be stable and pay good money, but if I was to look for an under appreciated class of educated professionals, Nursing would be two rungs below IT on the respect ladder.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Grishnakh]

Both Chinese and Mexicans are more than capable of doing EVERYTHING an American can do.

Wrong. A Chinese person can't fix your car, for instance, because that would require shipping the car to China for repair. That would cost far more than just having an American fix it. A Chinese person can't tend to patients in an American hospital (we don't have robotics that advanced yet). A Chinese person certainly can't teach English to kids at an American school.

Second generations immigrents [sic] born here generally speak better english than most Americans who have been here for several generations.

Anyone who's "second generation" isn't Chinese or Mexican, they're American. And they can probably spell better than you too.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Grishnakh]

He already mentioned that ("organized crime").

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

oh shut up

Re:I'd never do it, but

[SQLGuru]

Most important thing I learned from my dad......do something you love because you have to work for around 40 years and that's a long time to hate your job. My dad started at a paper mill when he was 18 and retired at 60. He hated it but had the obligation of providing for a family (and by the time he could change, it was really too late to bother changing). He was always miserable. I program because I love it (don't tell my boss, but I'd do it for less money). When I'm not at work, I'm programming on the side or for fun or taking programming classes (game programming, I work in business apps) or just generally being involved in computers. My worst day as a programmer is still better than the best day doing something I hate.

It's ok to change fields, but don't be miserable doing it.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

You have waaaay too much time on your hands to answer this post with an essay like this.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Niris]

Except hairstylist and plumbers are the first to be put on ships and sent to another planet via Hitchers Guide

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I think most manager roles can be outsourced.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[usasma]

Retire - then you can do what you want. I retired in 2003 - and now I give away my services. If the customer isn't appreciative - I just walk out on them.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[elrous0]

A warning to all those considering nursing as a "rewarding profession" (from someone who knows):

Yes, you will have no trouble finding a job in nursing.

The reason for *that* is because no one in their right mind wants to do this job.

The reason for *that* is because very few sane people want to spend 4 years in university for the privilege of staying on your feet all day (or night) long, working odd hours (forget 9-to-5), wiping shit, cleaning wounds, and dealing with mean patients until you could pull your hair out.

But if decent money and a guaranteed job are *ALL* (and I mean *ALL*) you care about, then go for it!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

...organized crime/politics...

Nicely stated! For truly these are one and the same.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[thetoadwarrior]

Companies want everyone to get into IT. Once you have too many candidates, you can drive wages down.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Note that the prior post was concerning teaching ESL overseas, not CompSci in Utah.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[breadstic]

Teaching English as a foreign language in a different country is very VERY different to traditional teaching in a school or college in the US or UK or wherever...

Re:I'd never do it, but

[joeyg1973]

Ok all those IT folks who went to college and took "anat & phys, microbiology, pathophysiology" raise your hands. ... Yeah so like I said, 4-5 years.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[taphu]

Anything else?

Yes. Actual Information Technology. It has been my experience that the projects that have been successfully outsourced are projects that involve zero new technology and have traditionally been implemented by considerably overpaid "engineers" who can't tell the difference between a Turing Machine and a vending machine.

In my opinion, 2/3'rds of the software engineers I have ever met deserve to loose their jobs for the simple reason that the resources they consume are more valuable than their net production, usually by a staggering margin. It is as simple as that.

Yes, my job title is "Sr. Software Engineer". No, I will not tow the union line.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

In some cases this is a calculated assessment. Most days I would love to say "Here do whatever you want, go make money". But whenever that happens we usually end up with computers that are pretty much toast, right about the time a report is due or shipping needs to be done. My brother who is also an admin, spent a lot of his time cleaning crazy crap off of users computers because his department wouldn't spend extra money for MS Professional version. So he was busy all the time. Each person in IT was spending a day a week cleaning up computers for malware and spyware, until we started restricting internet usage. And I take a lot of crap for end users because of it.
But you know what, in the last five years, we have not had a serious virus outbreak, computer failure, failure to get proposals done on time, missed shipments due to computer outages and we have only had 1.5 hours where manufacturing was stopped due to network failure and that was because somebody had taken the backup switch we had for a small but critical segment of our network. If we had still had it in stock, we would have fixed it in 45 minutes, (took us 30 minutes to have someone respond in the middle of the night) and took us 45 minutes to find a non-critical switch to replace it with.
I usually have to listen to people whine once a week because they can't do this or that with their computer and usually they are the ones whose laptops we have to wipe clean every six months.
We could probably allow users more freedom if we had more money for backups and storage and people to support the carnage it would create, but I limited funds and I'm not going to burn out good people because someone thinks they need unfettered ability to install software on a working computer.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[SSCGWLB]

Thank you!

I have never understood why some IT people have to be dicks. Yes, sometimes you will have to deal with morons, the clueless, the malicious, and everywhere in-between. Welcome to the real world, put on your big boy pants and deal with it! The vast majority of people are just trying to do their job and made a honest mistake. I think it's time IT realizes that their job depends on 'DFUs'. Do you know what you call a IT guy without any user? Unemployed.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[ArsonSmith]

I'm a teleporter technician you insensitive clod

Re:I'd never do it, but

[ottothecow]

Will you be my IT guy? (I can still use firefox right?)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Nursing ? Totally depends on the country you live in...
I know a few nurses -bad pay bad hours bad work...
I know ZA and NZ do not pay well in the nursing field.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[jcombel]

haha the guy was talking about how it's hard to have a tough work environment when you're the quirky foreign guy

guess i'm glad you had a venue to tell your story (finally!)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[musicmaker]

Users *can* be a pain. Where I work though, there's an extremely small chance that a situation like this would happen.

Hey I tried to install windows 7 alpha but now my computer doesn't work?

Our company machines require a password to boot from anything but the hard drive. This user would be more likely to call me about getting it installed rather than asking for support after the fact. Even if he somehow managed to guess the password, the fact that he had to do so likely indicates that he's not going to be calling my helpdesk to get support for it, and the fact that he can't log into the domain to access his documents or e-mail means that his machine would be re-imaged by lunchtime.

Seriously, you have either that broad a system policy, a decent upgrade policy, or very dull people working or you. Where I work, the only supported systems are the ones the company provided that are often not adequate for the needs of the users they've been supplied to. Many users bring their personal Mac to work because the PC they were given was a piece of crap, even though it was running XP. Ever try to get a designer to use a PC?
Ever get a user who has a screw-driver, opens up the chasis and resets the BIOS with the reset jumper? It's not hard.

I have a problem with my computer since I installed mega-zob-toolbar; please fix it.

We have a corporate antivirus to help reduce attacks like that, but if they fail, then this is part of my job. Most users, realizing that it takes significant amounts of time away from their productivity, tend to ask what they can do to avoid it in the future. The majority of virus attacks I get are based on ignorance, not malice.

Wait - people WANT to be productive - now I really think you are living in some parallel dimension.

My kid gave me Adobe CS12 Mega Ultra Designer Pack-DOMINO-REPACK-XXXX to edit that PDF can I have admin right to install it?

First, a quick google search shows that DOMiNO releases DVD rips of movies and isn't a software release group. That said, the majority of the users at work will call me if they need help editing the PDF file in the first place, not asking for help installing 5 DVDs and running a keygen. They know their coworkers can do it, and if they need Acrobat installed on their machines and don't have it, they know that all it takes is a phone call to my desk and I'm going to work on solving their problem.

So what happens when a web developer, Bob, who is working on a site, but graphics person Jim has handed him a pile of graphics that fundamentally don't work for some reason like they were created at the wrong size by 2 pixels, and Bob's ass is on the line to get the website up by noon, and he doesn't have a copy of Photoshop/Illustrator etc.? He has several choices: 1) Install GIMP and fix the graphic, except that under your scheme he doesn't have admin so strike that. 2) Get Photoshop installed by IT, who will more than likely refuse, citing that it's unnecessary for his job function, where-upon he might go to his manager who will shrug because the budget isn't under his control, and can't make that decision, and his manager's manager is off-site at some management training function (party), 3) send the graphic back to Jim, and blame the release slipping on Jim, who claims he wasn't given the right spec making Jim look bad either way, and Bob look like a whiner; general political BS ensues and the developer gets blamed anyway, pisses of Jim, his Manager and his Manager's manager; lose-lose for him.

Hey, I've been trying to send that DVD by email for the last three days but it doesn't work and by the way the email server is very slow.

This one I could technically see happening, but AFAIK the only person here who uses ISO files is me. On a more generic note (i.e. sending stupidly large files via e-mail), our Exchange s

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

> And they can probably spell better than you too.

That might be one of the worries.

Of course that's not a problem if most people especially those in charge of hiring can't spell either and don't care.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I found your post quite interesting. In about half the cases you mention, the need for you to get involved exists primarily because you have gone out of your way to prevent the users from helping themselves. I find it rather wasteful to pay someone to re-enable a capability that the company already bought.

Despite your best efforts to respond as quickly as possible, patience is in short supply when the user is asking for IT do something they can do without difficulty at home. Some of our users take work home with them on USB sticks for exactly that reason. For every silly lockdown that IT can dream up, there is an equally silly workaround, and often a business need to use it!

True story: We have Websense. The IT department in its infinite wisdom has decided to block the category of "Messages and Boards". Problem is, some of those forbidden forums are the support forums for the manufacturers of equipment that we use! I have two choices: (1) Call IT, spend an hour begging them to unblock the website in question, wait a day for the to actually do it, and repeat the same process in a few days. Or (2) crank up my Blackberry and send the appropriate information to my Gmail account. Hmmmmm, that's a toughie. And to think, we actually PAY these clowns to diminish our capabilities?

The average high school student has access to a home computer that communicates FAR more effectively than the average corporate "managed" machine. I would be much more productive without all of this "management". I dream of the day when corporate users are elevated to the level of home users.

Another true story: I was at a company-sponsored training event (about 15 people), held onsite at one of our offices. Part of it was a demo of a few web-based apps that ran from Corporate. Our internal network performance is awful, mostly because corporate IT is too lazy to investigate 5% packet loss on the local LAN. We all get better performance from home and everybody knows it. Lunch was catered; food was brought in from Panera Bread. I told the instructor, "How ironic that we are having Panera Bread for lunch. If you wanted those corporate apps to work better, you should have held the class THERE instead!"

Re:I'd never do it, but

[ndik]

That guy would be Lester Burnham (Kevin Spacey)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes,

I have worked in environments like this.

people who say these are the minority obviously havent worked in a range or IT environments or businesses.....

Or have been VERY LUCKY in their careers....

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

With many Indian software engineers in the global software industry, and most of them being Hindu, this should not come as a surprise!

http://picasaweb.google.com/[my username here snipped for privacy]/UcAsTE?authkey=[generated part of the URL here snipped for privacy]#

Catch the "caste" in the middle of the URL! "as in, What's ur caste buddy?"!! - "ucAsTE?!!"

https://mail.google.com/mail/?zx=&shva=1#inbox

catch the "shva" (shiva!) in the middle!

Also, the Google "Chrome" browser has "Om" in the middle! Chr"Om"e!

As a side note, "Google" may also be interpreted as "Good-gle", "God-gle"
So much for the company that wants to do "good things for the world"!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Daley_G]

I absolutely agree. I got into this field completely by accident 10+ years ago, and would honestly be doing this whether I'm doing it for a paycheck or not. Over the years, I've worked for mom-and-pop companies where the IT guy doubled as the and I've worked for Fortune 500 enterprises where IT duties themselves were very segregated and roles were very specific. Currently I'm at a company that's just big enough to have a fully-staffed helpdesk but small enough that even I as a Systems Administrator still get to talk with the users from time to time. We have a few "big toys" but I'm not managing a 10,000-node datacenter. The company I work for is publicly-traded, but we maintain that "family" atmosphere where I can call a user (or have helpdesk do it) and tell them that they're doing something wrong. However, as Voyager529 posted above, my users also know that a solution (or at least our desire to help fine one) is soon to follow. If you hate IT, budgetary constraints, backstabbing upper-management and unappreciative users, you have more options than to just jump ship completely. It's just like any other career - if you're not happy, take steps to change it. If the steps you're taking aren't helping, they're obviously the wrong steps. Consider how long you've been doing what you're doing, and how good you are at it. Now compare that to your next career - do you really want to start over? On the other hand, if you're completely burned-out and just looking for a fresh start, no amount of pep-talking is going to give you the passion you should have in ANY career. Go with your passion - after all, that's what allows me to get paid for my hobby ;)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Voyager,

I think you should go into writing. Very good article!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[st0nes]

I bought a gym franchise with my savings. My wife, who used to be a nurse, runs it and I just look after the admin side (it's a woman's gym and I'm not allowed in during open hours; we've got some muslim members who would probably get stoned if they were seen by a man in their leotards) and give the girls on the staff an occasional pep talk. Money was crap initially, but as our membership built up it improved, then the financial meltdown happened and our membership plummeted. I have had to go back to work in IT to make ends meet while we ride out the storm, but things are starting to improve again and we should be back in profit within the next month or so. Starting your own business is something to think about, but only if you have sufficient capital to set it up and keep yourself for at least a year until it shows a profit. Remember that some things you take for granted in the corporate world you would have to provide for yourself: health insurance, pension or provident plan, etc. You will probably experience some sleepless nights; your responsibilities are likely to be far more onerous than anything you experienced in the IT field, but the potential rewards are great.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[st0nes]

organized crime/politics

Politics is disorganised crime.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[zobier]

I've worked with a number of admins like you, you guys rock.

People who have support like this at work should try to remember "hug your admin" day or whatever it's called.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[No-Cool-Nickname]

You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money.

Sounds like my job in IT

Re:I'd never do it, but

[nicholdraper]

Why doesn't your email client notify the end-users that their attachment is too large to be sent? Why haven't you locked down installations avoid toolbar additions? If they need a PDF editor, why don't you get to their machine and install it? I could go on, but the point is if users are a pain, you may be the problem. I work in R&D, but at various times in my career I have had some IT tasks. I'm currently at a company that had a horrible R&D department before I came. We let four engineers go. Now we are releasing products faster than ever before and everybody loves us. If your users don't love you -- you should find a new career, with the level of friendliness your posts demonstrates may I suggest prison guard.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[RemoWilliams84]

Huntsville is the exception, and luckily where I currently live. Have a job on Redstone.

The surrounding areas are struggling.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[COMON$]

Ya I hear that happens quite often. Of course that is the way it is with most paycheck hunters, takes em a while to figure out that there is more to life than hunting down the best pay. I know some people that love retail, I think my wife will probably end up in a hospital or teaching. Not the big 6 figure salary probably but hell I will take 70K plus. Trick is you gotta move around and figure out what kind of workplace you enjoy, the same as any profession :)

Re:I'd never do it, but

[ryzynforce]

I do not believe you know what you speak of. You are provided with the tools you need to do your job. I am awfully sorry that you are no longer allowed to watch YouTube or work on your MySpace/FaceBook page, but those are the breaks. If you are not one of "those people", the you are the exception... Not the rule. However, based upon your previous statement "I'm Less inclined to do my job...", you are the latter and not the former. Since I speak in general terms, I hope you understand this is a general statment which is often true of most end-users. Watch YouTube or go to your favorite joke/streaming media sites at home.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[apmonte]

I understand some of the issues that users create, however, most IT departments make no distinction between users like my mother, who has no business even owning a PC, and users that are more knowledgeable than most of your IT co-workers. I work in an aerospace engineering environment. Most of my co-workers are far more competent with a PC than any of the IT drones than CSC has hired to provide IT services. I only use my CSC PC for office applications, because that's the only thing it's good for. I've got a department owned laptop that I do have administrative access on that I use for engineering applications. Against all odds, I've never had issues with it in the five years that I've had administrative access on it. (and it is connected to the nework) I think my point is please quit administrating for the lowest common denominator.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Joe Tie.]

I think the problem comes in when it's always antagonistic, angry, people all day. Eight hours of people being pissed at you because of something someone else, usually they, did, can really take a toll after years of it. The sterotype of the IT guy who's a dick has some validity to it. But it's mostly people who don't start out that way. You deal with people who hate you enough, and eventually you have to either quit, stop caring, or start hating them.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Voyager529]

Forgot a < /quote> in there somewhere.

Anyway, the foundational difference here between the experience you reference and mine is that we have two entirely different user bases. You're correct in that we don't have any graphic designers on staff. My users use Microsoft Office, a few web-based apps, and an AS/400 emulator (yes, we still have an AS/400, though it's being phased out in less than a year). Obviously these aren't terribly processor intensive applications, and the machines that we have are all equipped with dual-core processors (albeit some older than others), at least a gig of RAM, and run XP. As such, our network is tailored to the needs of the users I have. If I had people who rendered lots of video, our network and policies would reflect that. On to the rest of the bullet points...

The people who work at my company have a job to do. Installing a beta copy of an operating system on their work machine isn't one of them. Most people in my office, whether they love their job or not, have one. The accountants crunch the numbers. The underwriters review policies. Customer Service answers the phone. Legal preps court cases, etc. While us slashdotters like messing with technology, as you alluded to in your response, most people just want the stuff to work, and don't have time to make their own. They all have their own supervisors to answer to, and if they're not keeping up with their work because they were installing Windows 7 Beta 1 on their work machine, they'd be in plenty of hot water of their own. There is no reason I could possibly think of that anyone would need to boot from a CD or USB drive in order to get their job done. That policy is anything but draconian.

Your example of Web Guy Bob and Graphic Guy Jim mixes office politics with technology, and fails to take into account that GPO's are rules that are there for the 99% of the time, not the 1% for which an exception can easily be generated. Generally if Bob and Jim are working together on the same project, I doubt that Jim would fly off the handle if Bob asked for a simple resize. But let's say that for some reason that wasn't possible. I'd also doubt that if Bob is an in-house web designer that he'd get too far with just a copy of Dreamweaver independent of Photoshop/Illustrator/Fireworks. The company would be foolish to buy the single app instead of suite licenses for both of them. Even if they did, it's unlikely that Bob and Jim wouldn't have had something like this happen before and therefore a precedent set (either Bob goes back to Jim and asks for fixes or Bob already has GIMP/Inkscape installed). The best example to substantiate your argument that I could come up with is something like Jim doing the graphics the day before he goes away on vacation and Bob can't contact him until he gets back, like he normally would. The manager would be a dolt to have either scheduled the deadline of the project the day AFTER Jim goes away or let Jim schedule his vacation to start the day the project is due. But despite the stretch of the example you made, if it really came down to it, yes, Bob could call me and I'd either resize the graphics on my own copy of Photoshop (yes, I paid for it...pics of the discs available on request) or install GIMP/Paint.Net for him on his machine so that he could do it, which would take me 10 minutes, tops. If a manager is going to both insist on a deadline that cannot be met due to his own incompetence AND prohibit Bob from having the tools to do so means that it's time for me to have a chat with Bob's boss's boss.

Again, you're correct in that I don't have any graphic designers here. I've never had a case of the 10MB attachment limit being a problem. Even if a user did need to send a file bigger than that, the odds are that the recipient's mailbox would spit it out anyway. Given the infrequency of this occurance, I have no problem FTPing the file and giving the user a link to e-mail to the person. If it were frequent enough that I'd have to give every Moe, Larry, and Curly FTP a

Re:I'd never do it, but

[sesshomaru]

Old Soviet saying, "In America, every profession has its own Mafia."

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Lucky for you. Not everybody has something that they are passionate about that will also pay the bills.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[StuartLaJoie]

Hardware technicians are always going to have to be local, too. Of course, you're often working for the same type of companies and being treated as badly as the IT guys, but if you know your way around the inside of a PC, a printer, even just the basics of physical networking infrastructure, there's a market for those skills too.

Speaking as a local hardware support tech (for a Fortune 100) who is in the process of being outsourced to an Indian support group, I have to disagree.

Fedex is the great leveler for hardware support. It (apparently) becomes cheaper to package it up and ship halfway across the world than to keep someone on staff to handle local issues. Sure, the users will have to wait a week or two for problem resolution, but when looked at from the executive suite, that's a problem only for the individual user, not the company.

As for knowing your way around a printer, most large companies have been using throwaway printers for small workgroups for years. In larger settings, Xerox and Ricoh offer high volume systems with service contracts. The local support guy is quickly going the way of the farrier; the need won't completely vanish, but will be reduced drastically in coming years.

Now I'm headed back to college for a BS in Psychology. I dropped out of an IT program during the dot-com days, but I have little interest in continuing work in an increasingly commoditized field. It's time to learn how to hack humans.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[StuartLaJoie]

Your concept of what I.T. is only works in small companies. In companies with large I.T. workforces or large information assets, the job of I.T. is NOT to help the end user make the most of their available assets. In those cases, the job of I.T. is to protect company information, secure I.T. equipment against uses which may create a liability to the company or violate contracts or laws, and to enforce company policies (often based on legal requirements) regarding the use of information and I.T. equipment.

With the massive economic downturn, I.T. (in the U.S., at any rate) is more frequently called upon by Human Resources deptartments in large organizations to ferret out misuse of I.T. assets in order to terminate employees in such a way that unemployment compensation can be legally denied. This allows the company to perform RIFs without the penalty paid in higher unemployment insurance costs.

Never assume that I.T. exists only to help the end user. In many cases, if not most, I.T. is in place specifically to prevent the end user from overstepping their bounds or using information and assets in ways not approved by the governing body of the business.

I don't mean to suggest that this adversarial relationship is correct, nor excuse the dismissive attitude many I.T. pros have toward end users, but it is one of the chief purposes of current I.T. work. Were most companies to use I.T. assets to their full potential, they would need far less of those assets.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[enoz]

That made my (Fri)day.

Thanks.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Anonymous Coward]

If not for Apple & coding, I'd be gone a long time ago. The bottom-feeding mentality of India, Inc. has turned IT into one of the biggest crap industries today. If Jobs dies, innovation in IT will grind to a halt. Do you really want to be some admin just running around for losers? I need to create. I have been in IT 20 years and wrote some incredible software and had a lot of fun but..... it's not what it used to be. It's not fun anymore. Corporations just want $, they don't care about great products. I hate working in that kind of envirnoment. It has to be fun when you get up every day, or it ain't worth it. Maybe a beach bum in Hawaii wouldn't be bad. Even doing a crap job there would be worth it if there was something else to do. Or maybe somewhere else in the world that is interesting and worth the headches. USA sure ain't it anymore!

Re:I'd never do it, but

[that IT girl]

Man... that's nuts. I'm sorry to hear that, and even more sorry that more of our jobs are going overseas. I guess eventually, the only places that will require someone local are places like hospitals (and to a lesser degree, schools and retail stores, things like that) where downtime absolutely has to be minimized.

Re:I'd never do it, but

[Pollardito]

GOP political consultant is a position that won't be importing from Mexico any time soon, start studying up on your FOX News talking points

Other Industries

[Anonymous Coward]

any industry will have it's bad points that you need to deal with.

Re:Other Industries

[Z00L00K]

True - and since I have been brought up on a farm I know that weather is an important problem to worry about.

If you really want to see the scope of troubles in different jobs I suggest that you can watch Mike Rowe in the show "Dirty Jobs".

In reality - either you have a job filled with problems or you have a dull job where you are never challenged intellectually and you become stagnant.

Re:Other Industries

[Anonymous Coward]

The IT people I know watch Dirty Jobs and say "That's not so bad. I could do that."

Re:Other Industries

[Anonymous Coward]

In reality - either you have a job filled with problems or you have a dull job where you are never challenged intellectually and you become stagnant.

Or you have a job filled with problems that are repetitive and dull. Been in IT 25 years, and I'm tired of walking into projects that are feature-rich and implementation-poor. Unhappy customers, reactive instead of proactive, managers constantly push, push, pushing overworked developers for more, more, more. And at my age, I have a life, plus I've learned from past experience to recognize when I'm being used.

A six-fig salary ain't worth it sometimes. I'd take a 25% pay cut for regular hours and an easy commute.

Re:Other Industries

[MattSausage]

Dear christ on a cracker.. I literally said that yesterday while watching Mike Rowe, hilarious!

switched.

[Anonymous Coward]

i became an atorney. working out so far. also try management. project management is a natural fit. get an mba.

Re:switched.

[tomhudson]

i became an atorney (sic)

Spelling and morals are both still optional?

Re:switched.

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't been around many attorneys lately, have you?

Re:switched.

[Anonymous Coward]

Capitals, too.

Re:switched.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer, now I are one.

Re:switched.

[Anonymous Coward]

:-)

Re:switched.

[ae1294]

Spelling and morals are both still optional?

Attorney's have hot young assistants to type up all those documents remember? But what is this morals thing you speak of?

Look before you leap

[FPhlyer]

I'm an ex-Navy guy. My military career field was journalism and public affairs. When I got out of the service I went directly into IT.
The same factors that governed my career change would likely work in this, and any other similar situation:
1. Identify things that you LIKE to do.
2. Of the things that you LIKE to do, do you also possess marketable skills doing them?
3. Can you put those skills on a resume?
4. What can you do NOW to add credibility to your new career?

Work those things out and making the leap should be fine. Beware, leaving IT can often mean leaving a good paycheck. You'll want to get your finances and lifestyle in check before making the jump.

Re:Look before you leap

[bagboy]

Off Topic but... "I'm an ex-Navy guy. My military career field was journalism and public affairs. When I got out of the service I went directly into IT." This is also me - 9.5 years Navy Journalist (NMC and AFRTS - Diego Garcia, Adak,AK, Naval Base Seattle Public Affairs, Gitmo) and now 10 years network engineer.... Small world isn't it. :)

Re:Look before you leap

[TikiTDO]

I am with you, pick what you like, and move in that direction.

It is so refreshing to see someone really follow their passion. A huge percentage of the population today is stuck in jobs they do not like. This leads to resentment, anger, and eventually very negative release of these emotions. What's worse, the smartest of these make it to the top of the food chain, then take out all of this amassed anger on society. Had they not been pushed into fields that did not suit them, they would have most likely contributed a lot more to society, and left the positions they now occupy to those that could fill such roles while living a happier life, and contributing much more to the world.

The way I see it, the purpose of life is to do what you want, enjoy doing it, and enjoy helping others do the same. It is very unfortunate that this does not happen.

Re:Look before you leap

[BillGod]

I was laid off from my IT position.. I live in Ohio.. everyone is laid off. All I know is computers. In a past life I was a paramedic but figured I didn't have the compassion needed for that job. I understand computers and love to do it. Thats why I chose IT. About 6 months ago I took a leap and opened my own computer repair shop. Only cost me about 2k to get the doors open. No stock of parts except the boxes of crap I had around my house. I am now making profit after 6 months. I love it. I have no one to answer to but myself. The customers are very thankful that there is some place they can go that will actually fix there issues. I even have some older retired guys who just come in to hang out. I have no experience what so ever in running a business. Learning curve is not all that hard. Luckily my neighbor is an accountant and helped me in that area. The first 2 months were kind of scary not having anything to do. Played a lot of pocket tanks with my friends. Now I have an office that I don't even go into because I have so much to do. If your an honest person that truly knows how to fix computers. I am sure you would be a welcome asset to your community. Oh yeah and the 2 mile drive to work is SWEET!

Re:Look before you leap

[Hal_Porter]

I know several IT companies that will only hire Gitmo alumni as managers. Or at least that's the best explanation I can think of.

Re:Look before you leap

[FPhlyer]

Small world is right! I'm a DINFOS Trained Killer myself! BJC 9-91.
Navy Broadcasting Detachment 8, Keflavik Iceland, Public Affairs Officer for Navy Recruiting District Montgomery, SITE-TV USS New Orleans. Got out in 1997.

Re:Look before you leap

[taucross]

I lol'd.

Re:Look before you leap

[Stupid Crunt]

Played a lot of pocket tanks with my friends.

Errmmm...that's a good way to get an embarrasing disease, isn't it?

Re:Look before you leap

[Genda]

And precisely how much killing do you currently do in IT???

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to be a sales manager, managing a team of sales reps selling services.

Then I switched to video server pre-sales, traveling to customers around Europe. I spend my days in Linux, networks, mpeg encoders and decoders.
Now I'm doing what I really like, and what i can really do better than others.

Plus the paycheck is 50% higher than before ...

Ok, it took me some time to find the job and do the transition, but I'm so glad I did it!

There are nice jobs out of IT, I don't consider myself as doing IT, plus I make more money than the average IT guy.

You need to find what it is that you like doing, what you do better than others, then choose the job that would use this and make you succesful and happy. It can take a few month to really discover this.

Good luck

Re:Look before you leap

[benedictaddis]

"2 mile DRIVE to work" Don't you mean half hour walk or ten minute cycle?

Re:Look before you leap

[pruckelshaus]

I, too, am ex-Navy (9 years, YN1(SS)). Got out, went to college (studying English) in the early 90's, and found that HTML was almost exactly like WordStar's markup, so found myself "designing" web pages in 1994. Over time, I "retooled" myself into a programmer and DBA. The economy tanked, I almost got laid off once and then did get laid off a year and a half later. Somewhere In there, I decided that I needed a Plan B, so I went back to school and got an M.Ed. with teacher certification. I am now teaching high school computer science and love it. First off, "stress" for teachers is nothing compared to "IT stress", ifyaknowwhatimean. The job isn't exactly difficult, especially when you're doing what you love. It sounds hokey, but I find it really rewarding to be teaching what I see as the next generation of home-grown US IT workers -- anything I can do to keep US tech jobs from being offshored like my job was. You're not going to turn 100% of your students into programmers/IT people, but even if you help one kid decide that that's what they want to do, it's a great feeling. Moreover, there just aren't enough CompSci teachers out there that actually have real-world experience; many HS CS teachers are just math or business teachers who are 1/2 step ahead of the kids and everything they know comes straight from the textbook.

Re:Look before you leap

[DoofusOfDeath]

Off Topic but... "I'm an ex-Navy guy. My military career field was journalism and public affairs. When I got out of the service I went directly into IT."
This is also me - 9.5 years Navy Journalist (NMC and AFRTS - Diego Garcia, Adak,AK, Naval Base Seattle Public Affairs, Gitmo) and now 10 years network engineer.... Small world isn't it. :)

Maybe you're the same guy! Have you checked?

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing since he's on /. the only killing he does is time.

Re:Look before you leap

[netpixie]

>The way I see it, the purpose of life is to do what you want, enjoy doing it, and enjoy helping others do the same. It is very unfortunate that this does not happen.

I enjoy seeing my children have food to eat and clothes to wear. I enjoy being able to take them out to exciting places. I enjoy being able to send them to school. I enjoy keeping them safe in a reasonable house. My wife enjoys being able to stay at home and look after them.

All of these things are possible because of the cash I earn at a job I don't enjoy.

So, while universal joy is a good aim, in the real world it doesn't usually work like that. You have to choose which bits of your life you are going to enjoy and which bits you are going to endure.

Re:Look before you leap

[Reservoir Penguin]

There is no hope. The Earth is doomed.

Re:Look before you leap

[Spazztastic]

And precisely how much killing do you currently do in IT???

Does throwing CRTs off the roof count? If yes, then one.

Re:Look before you leap

[Zoolander]

Re your sig: Here you go.

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah because you won't need that car to make any service calls, and hauling around computers and tools is trivial on a bike. Too bad granola can't increase your IQ idiot.

Re:Look before you leap

[cellurl]

put up a picture/link of your shop.

Donate time, not money

Re:Look before you leap

[sticky_charris]

I love you AC

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true. I was a cop in the Air Force for eight long years. Absolutely hated being a cop, but loved the military. Nice structure. Anyways, I would take my angst out on my fellow cops, challenged authority at every correct opportunity, began to look down on others for their very existence as if they had no right to breathe. I was miserable. In 2000, I rediscovered computers and fell in love with it. The only time I was happy at work was talking about computers. Got out and went to school. Landed my first job and I have to say that I have been happy as a pig in poo.
My point is; figure out what you love to do and do it. Don't look at the money, but the happiness it will bring. Money and material items are only things, but happiness is something a whole hell of a lot better. If you have a family, prepare your children and significant other that things are going to change for the better and may not appear to be better. Prepare them anyways.
Life is way to short to be miserable and it took me six years to figure that one out. I have been programming for a little over 2 years now and love it, but I am also not delusional either. At some point I will either have to move up or aside to let the youth take over, so I have a back up plan. I love geology and psychology and would like to dabble in those too. So be reasonable and be smart and most importantly don't move to something you loath for money, but move to something you love to do for the rest of your life. I am on my second career path and couldn't be happier earning less money then I did when I was in the Air Force.

Re:Look before you leap

[dasunt]

Yeah because you won't need that car to make any service calls, and hauling around computers and tools is trivial on a bike

Distance may be a problem, or time constraints.

But hauling around computers and tools is trivial with the right bicycle setup. :p

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

IT was my second career (moved where I wanted to live and changed focus from engineering). Now that IT gets less respect than plumbers (and there's much less work as companies seem to think IT is a "cost center" rather than a "your business comes to a paralyzed halt without it"), I've decided to change fields. One that can't be outsourced by some git looking for a bonus to spend in the Cayman Islands. I'm applying to get my teaching certificate to teach high school math/physics (oddly, I enjoy being around teens and have a lot of teaching/leadership experience with them). However, I'm also looking at 'green' jobs (wind, solar, etc) as I live in an area that is investing in those industries heavily.

The biggest problem I face is age discrimination - which is more and more incredible given the population demographic trends. Many employers, I've found, don't actually *want* employees who can think and solve problems. They want little drones that will follow instructions off the cliff.

Re:Look before you leap

[Dragoness Eclectic]

Dude, when were you on Diego Garcia? Sounds like you were there a few years after I was. I was stationed there in 84-85, in time for the big earthquake that didn't do much.

Re:Look before you leap

[AmericanGladiator]

You've struck a chord with me. I fully agree. I enjoy my work a fair amount of the time (I'm an embedded developer rather than a real IT guy), but often I'd rather be doing something different. That said - I can provide very adequately for my family, which I gain a lot of pleasure from.

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

Lighten up. Maybe he lives in a rough neighborhood and needs some extra security. Bottom line, you're picking on a guy who is wasting hardly any gas driving 2 miles.

Re:Look before you leap

[waspleg]

yeah, it's called capitalism. tons of people work doing what they hate because they couldn't SURVIVE otherwise (or at least that's what they have convinced themselves of, and for most people it's true).

and yes that means a huge waste of talent and potential and definitely that you're having resentment taken out on you regularly; i used to work hotels, i can attest to this.

i would say this is true for 90% of people if not more.

pro-offtopic-tip: not being a rude asshole can go a long way with any kind of customer service people

Re:Look before you leap

[littlewink]

I know several IT companies that will only hire Gitmo alumni as managers.

That's because they hold better interviews!8-))

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto. Left the corporate world 5+ years ago. Now doing residential and small business computer repair, networking, etc.out of my home with over 1000 customers (livin' large in the metropolis).

Guess what? I have not "worked" a single day since I started this gig. :-)

Re:Look before you leap

[swb]

What kind of gross revenue are you looking at on an annualized basis?

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry..cars are still legal, for the moment. Get a life.

Re:Look before you leap

[Alpha830RulZ]

A huge percentage of the population today is stuck in jobs they do not like.

One thing to realize about this is what Marx wrote about 150 years ago about alienation of labor. He said, and I think it's true, that to work for anyone else inherently renders that work less satisfying. This means that the essential nature of -any- economy is that production is less satisfying than we would like. This is true whether it's a capitalist, socialist, or communist society. To work for The Man sucks, and always will.

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

Ohio is a frozen hell for about 20% of the year in which only a complete asshole would try to ride a bicycle and only a suicidal asshole would try to walk. We're talking near-antarctic conditions after wind chill.

For most of the summer it's hotter than hell and it's downright bad for your health.

Not everybody has the luxury of living in a part of the world without weather, hippy.

Re:Look before you leap

[troll8901]

My first thought was, what if he needs to carry a spare hard disk for backing up user data?

Then I remembered it's 2009, when solid-state drives exist.

Re:Look before you leap

[painandgreed]

Maybe you're the same guy! Have you checked?

Doubtful. Journalists stopped most of their fact checking decades ago.

Re:Look before you leap

[fiannaFailMan]

What's worse, the smartest of these make it to the top of the food chain, then take out all of this amassed anger on society.

What's all this about?

Re:Look before you leap

[Blakey Rat]

The danger of using multiple Slashdot logins graphically portrayed!

Re:Look before you leap

[liquiddark]

Their /. ids are suspiciously similar...

Re:Look before you leap

[Courageous]

Played a lot of pocket tanks with my friends

Usually it is considered wise to only admit these things as AC.

C//

Re:Look before you leap

[An ominous Cow art]

"kill -9 doesn't kill people. I do."

Re:Look before you leap

[BillGod]

I have a motorcycle.. why would i ride a bicycle? My last 2 jobs were 45 miles each way. 2 miles is SWEET

Re:Look before you leap

[TikiTDO]

Refer to the current "* Crisis."

Corruption, greed, intolerance, jealousy, and even paranoia; all of these things which are commonly attributed to human nature, I would argue first need to take root within your psyche. If you hate your work, then you will look around at others and go, "Those guys love their jobs, but I do not. Maybe if I had their position, I would like my job more." Then if you are skilled at the game of power, you will move to take the jobs you want, most likely destroying someone in the process. When you finally get there, you will find that nothing has changed; you still hate everything you are doing, though life outside your job is a bit easier now because of the extra perks you get.

Repeat this enough times, and your sub-conscious begins to believe that there is nothing more to life than money and power, since that's the only thing that has ever relieved the tedium. At that point, you will do anything to get more, and we get back to the human nature problems that all of us are so enjoying these days.

Re:Look before you leap

[TikiTDO]

All good points, which, I believe, illustrate some major problems with the current system. This is not something you can change overnight, and I'm not suggesting you try. However, it is a good goal to work towards. If you hate your job, start training for something you like. Worst case, you learn about a topic you enjoy, and don't take it anywhere. Best case, you can go into a new area and enjoy work a lot more, and lead an even more fulfilling life.

My response to fiannaFailMan later in the thread elaborates on this in a lot more detail.

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

I like to play computer games, draw comics, write comics, tinker, and program in BASIC.

As far as I can tell, none of the things I like to do will get me a job that has insurance and a decent, regular ( 30k / year) paycheck without being an absolute superstar in the field.

I see advice like yours all the time and as far as I can tell it is a crock.

And yes I am slowly becoming bitter about it - and I am slowly rising up the "food chain".

I just can't see a realistic way out.

Re:Look before you leap

[Anonymous Coward]

I call bullcrap on this. There are no "extra points" for martyrdom. I'm not trying to demean (sp?) your point - it is a very valid way of seeing things - but I believe it is not fully thought out. We were not placed her to hate what we do most of our life to raise our kids. Through passionate work, we are much more effective and worthwhile.

I left a job at one of the top 4 highly respected consulting firms in January...I was on the partner track, top rated, busy, chargeable and making craploads of money. If i wanted I could have stayed 6 more years to make partner. But I hated the work. And I it showed......the passion had left my eyes. So I left, and I enjoy it so much more....and won't ever ever ever ever go back. It took serious balls - but then again, most choices we NEED to make do.

The point of having kids is NOT to stop you from enjoying what you do. It should actually be a reason TO pursue it. Spending 8-9 hours a day doing something you hate so that your kids can temporarily have nice "things" - that they won't care for when they're older. All they care is that you're their mom/dad and give them attention and play with them. What do you want for your kids? You want them to be happy and to do what you love....not just money. Your (and my) parents wanted the exact same for us!

The point of life - is to love and to enrich the world around you. . By being in a job you dislike a lot - our passion is drained, and
I bet much less effective at causing positive change that enrichs the world. And for what? To have a chance at being a fat bald man in a red BMW convertible who
has a hollow life? (credit: 4 hour work week for that analogy).

OfficeMax.

[Anonymous Coward]

I went from doing contract work, to retail.
While it was nice to go back to school; I really don't care for retail. My hours suck, my pay sucks, people I work with don't suck, but some (few) customers suck; most are just unable to figure something easy out on their own.

But what to do?

[GroovyChk]

I'm wanting to get away from it as well. I'm good at it, been doing it for a long time - but I'm sick of it. At this point I have no idea where to go though. I recently started taking university courses again - going to see where that leads me.

Re:But what to do?

[Canberra Bob]

Same situation - been at it for years, good at it, paid quite well but well and truly over it. To accelerate the issue it's wrecking my eyesight - too many hours staring at the screen. Also looking at getting back into uni - doing something of interest like maths or applied physics and seeing where that takes me.

Re:But what to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm wanting to get away from it as well. I'm good at it, been doing it for a long time - but I'm sick of it. At this point I have no idea where to go though.
I recently started taking university courses again - going to see where that leads me.

Well, another interest I have is "mind hacking". Ie, hypnosis. I plan on going back to school in the Winter for psycology, then I'm going to become certified as a hypnotist.

Re:But what to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

I got tired of IT and went back to school to study something I enjoyed more, but it turned out to be a bust job-market-wise, plus - to be honest - I'm not as good at it as I was at technology. The only work I could get was back in IT, but now with my skills out of date and the whole job market in the toilet, I'm stuck doing Help Desk, pushing 40, and growing to hate my life with every passing month. So "follow your bliss" and "do what you love" are good advice, but make sure you're not burning bridges back to "do what you sorta like" if that's what it comes down to.

Re:But what to do?

[Bat Country]

It'll take you back to staring at a screen, probably.

be careful

[madcat2c]

You have to manage the delicate task of having your secretary take the specs from the customers and give it to the engineers....you have to be a people person, so dot jump to any conclusions.

I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[joeyg1973]

I used to work on the docks in NJ as a longshoreman during the summer and winter breaks from school in the early to mid 1990s. If I had stayed down there I would have close to 20 years in already, be getting paid close to the same amount I get now considering the hours that I put in plus the extended periods of no work each and every time the economy takes a down turn. I would have 6 weeks paid vacation every year, great medical, stable work, and no politics or being treated like an overpaid janitor. Unions are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out. The books are now closed and probably won't be open again for 5 years so even though I still have a union card, I can't get a job down there till federal government determines that it needs more workers thanks to the NYSA, not the union. I am trying to get a job as a US Customs Agent now. Sure I ain't going to be making a lot of money, but the benefits, 40 hour work week, and stable steady work means that it actually comes out to about the same as I make now.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out.

The problem is, you are an overpaid janitor, and if your union keeps forcing companies to give you 6 weeks vacation, $80/hour, and free blowjobs, they can and will drive those companies into extinction.

Then you can pat yourself on the back and bring your good old-fashioned union-label mentality to the soup kitchen.

At some point, "collective bargaining" becomes "killing the goose." Ask any GM stockholder.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

And what does the executive do that justifies his income?

That's something you can ask a GM stockholder too. Hurr.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

unions are great for union members...up until the employer is bankrupted by incessant demands. then unions are bad for everyone. the only reason it sort-of works in service industries is it's hard to ship the docks to china.

why don't you move to france, mr entitlement? or just keep voting democrat so we can all live in a proletariat dreamworld... it worked great for russia, china, and north korea.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

"Unions are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out."

As someone who has worked public sector, was a union member, and even striked with the union I can say that this is not entirely the case, unions are dangerous and I would rather see them severely weakened in the UK.

Unions are okay if their power is kept small, but in the UK they go out of control- Unison, one of the UK's biggest unions claims over 2 million members, and despite the fact half the working population are taking paycuts right now, Unison is still pushing for pay rises, even though basic IT technicians are still getting paid £29k in some local authorities where their true market worth in private sector for the low levels of ability would be around £16k to £18k. Governments are powerless to say no though, because they simply can't deal with the damage caused by a union that can put a good portion of it's 2 million members on strike. The story is the same with teachers whereby you have teachers strikes because secondary school teachers are underpaid whilst the same union covers primary school teachers who hence get the same rises and who are hence now heavily overpaid for their job, but what can the government do? risk having an entire generation of kids education disrupted setting them back for life?

Similarly, unions have a habit of protecting people at work regardless of the merit of that. This makes it impossible to get rid of dead weight, because you can't afford the associated costs with doing so - it's cheaper to keep those useless people in the job, providing a shit service than it is to get rid of them.

We also have them acting as a strongly political tool, they mail out regularly to their 2 million members telling them who to vote for and who not to vote for, in my opinion this type of political lobbying is far beyond the remit of a union, particularly one with 2 million members who have distinctly varied political views.

I agree a country entirely without unions really would kind of suck for workers, but on the same note, as someone who lives in a country with unions that are simply far too powerful, and as someone who now, looking back wishes they had not given any support whatsoever to such unions I disagree that you want unions to become more popular or more powerful. They can bring countries to a standstill even when their argument has no merit- you only have to look at the current UK postal strikes for evidence of that and note also that the Royal Mail is having to pay £20m a year to provide premises and time off work for it's staff to perform union activities. That's a hell of a burden on a company when the only result is for the company to get screwed over for that £20m it has had to spend. It's hard to tell what the Royal Mail strikes are even about as the official line seems to be changing daily from the union involved- originally they admitted job cuts were needed and that that was not the issue but now they are saying it is about jobs. The Royal Mail has lost a £25m Amazon contract because of this, you simply can't have a union holding a company to ransom like that at the expense of the company, particularly when the union doesn't even seem to be able to remain consistent in what it's actual demands are!

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions artificially inflate wages that the market can't support. Why do you think all the unionized jobs are fleeing this country? It's not just greedy managers, as much as pro-union folks would like you to think that, it's also that the higher prices people have to pay for union-produced products are not affordable by the majority of potential customers. Unions had their place once, but that time is long since past, especially since many labor unions would rather see a company go under than cut pay or benefits. Unions are supposed to protect the workers, not the union itself.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[bwalling]

The problem is, you are an overpaid janitor, and if your union keeps forcing companies to give you 6 weeks vacation, $80/hour, and free blowjobs, they can and will drive those companies into extinction.

Either the executives do it or the workers do it, but one of them is going to extract too much for themselves and hurt the company. At least the workers have figured out how to take a turn.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unison is still pushing for pay rises, even though basic IT technicians are still getting paid £29k in some local authorities where their true market worth in private sector for the low levels of ability would be around £16k to £18k.

More power to them! In fact you could argue Unison is keeping the pay of private sector technicians from falling further.

I don't understand why so many people here believe that unions distort the market ... unions are part of the market. Believing otherwise is swallowing right-wing rhetoric hook, line and sinker.

Are unions perfect? Heck no. But let's ease-up on the vilification (often found in other posts ... not parent's post).

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you not seen what Unions have done? Open your eyes. My neighbor is a GM employee (aka generous motors) in a local GM factory. He has been there for many years. His pay with overtime is over 100K. Is the skill of a janitor really worth 100K? I think not. Just ask your local McDonalds employees. And yes he has been there for a long time, but he would be crazy to leave... hence why he made a career of being a janitor.

Unions have crippled many large companies and in result has hurt our economy. Unions at one time were great and served a good purpose, but today they are too powerful and greedy.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[DoofusOfDeath]

Unions are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out.

We can't off-shore longshoremen. If they successfully negotiate high salaries, the ports have to just live with that.

If call center workers in the U.S. unionize and get higher wages...

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

"More power to them! In fact you could argue Unison is keeping the pay of private sector technicians from falling further."

No, the fundamental issue is that the type of technicians we're talking about are technicians whose ability doesn't reach much past being able to stick a Windows CD in the drive, boot off it and install it then maybe install a few apps- I would add network drives to the list, but one particular person I used to work with couldn't even do that. He spent 4 hours trying to figure out why he couldn't get a drive to map from another PC, the reason? He hadn't shared it on the other machine. How can we justify paying these people £29k? So what if private sector only pays them £16k - it's all they're worth. Skilled IT workers still get a decent wage in private sector, but the fundamental issue is that many IT workers simply are not skilled despite them believing otherwise because they built their last PC all by themselves. The person to which I refer was by no way unique either, at least 90% of IT workers on that wage level in the council were of similar low levels of ability to him.

Unions aren't part of the market because they require a lot of legal backing to support their effectively artificial existence. In a free market Royal Mail would not have to pay £20million a year to support a union that does not benefit it as a company. If people went on strike in a truly free market they would simply be sacked and replaced - especially in this climate where you have 70,000 Royal Mail workers whining that they don't know their companies future business plan, whilst 2.5million are sat jobless only able to dream of having the job, the pay and the benefits those workers have in the Royal Mail right now.

We have systems like the minimum wage, equality laws, and the industrial tribunal system to ensure workers aren't totally abused so the loss of unions altogether wouldn't be the end of the world, but as I say I don't totally detest the idea of unions. I just wish they stuck to their remit, and were capable of accepting when things are good rather than insisting on continuing to fight battles which really don't make sense to fight- again the CWU won a battle against the Royal Mail a year or two ago, and what's the result of that? It moves onto something else which is so loosely defined it shows they're just trying to justify their existence and it is to the detriment of society- we can't for example justify having a two tier system where the private sector employee getting paid what he's worth at £18k a year is paying taxes so the equally low skilled worker in public sector is getting paid £29k a year, all because the union will play havoc with society if anyone dares try to fix it.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Spazztastic]

And what does the executive do that justifies his income?

He lacks a soul.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[drsquare]

If six weeks vacation (not even two months) will drive a company into bankrupcy, maybe we need to rethink this whole capitalism thing.

I don't see the problem with a docker making $80 an hour. Would it be better if everyone made minimum wage? I thought the whole point of economic growth was that everyone got richer. But then I never bought into trickle-down economics.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[shentino]

I think the problem all around is just a plain imbalance of power.

First, the corporation was king, until they went too far and got the general public symathetic with unionizing.

Now unions are enjoying power, and some are going a bit too far in their karmic backlash. One could say that karma is enjoying usurious interest rates. If unions keep it up too much the public will get fed up with them just as badly.

I'd say be damned with fancy regs and just let the market sort it out. Treat overbearing unions the same way you do monopolistic corporations. Let monopsonies be treated the same as monopolies.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[drsquare]

As someone who has worked public sector, was a union member, and even striked with the union I can say that this is not entirely the case, unions are dangerous and I would rather see them severely weakened in the UK.

You're twenty years too late, Thatcher already destroyed the unions. This is why we have the longest working hours and most inequality in Europe. Maybe if we'd kept the unions around we wouldn't be scrapping for minimum wage agency work whilst the bankers and executives walk off with all the cash.

Unison is still pushing for pay rises, even though basic IT technicians are still getting paid £29k in some local authorities where their true market worth in private sector for the low levels of ability would be around £16k to £18k.

So workers who would otherwise make fuck-all, now get an income which may well help them pay a mortgage and raise a family. No doubt if these same workers were making £16k, you'd be whining about having to pay taxes for the services which they can no longer afford themselves.

We also have them acting as a strongly political tool, they mail out regularly to their 2 million members telling them who to vote for and who not to vote for, in my opinion this type of political lobbying is far beyond the remit of a union, particularly one with 2 million members who have distinctly varied political views.

On the other hand, we have newspapers regularly telling millions of people who to vote for. Considering your anti-union views, I'd imagine the Times is the paper which tells you how to think.

Britain has the weakest and smallest unions in Europe, according to right-wing dogma this should make us extremely prosperous. Instead, we're actually worse off, still in recession when everyone else is recovering.

The Royal Mail staff might not be on strike if the management hadn't reneged on the deal. But as your only information on the strike comes from right-wing sources, it's no wonder you're so ill-informed. They can't be struggling that much for cash if they can afford to pay Crozier several million a year.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[intheshelter]

The executive is slightly different than the union worker. The union worker probably does not have a university education and so makes less than the executive, while taking shit for 40 years. The executive has a university eductation which taught him/her to blow the right persons while climbing the corporate ladder. The executive took shit for maybe 10-20 years and now makes a much larger income because they had to sell their soul to the company to get where they are.

Okay, maybe I'm slightly bitter. . . .

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[backwardMechanic]

That's a peculiar comment from a country where the official government and the opposition do little for workers rights, while bailing large banks for whatever they ask. In the 70's the unions had too much power, not now. As for thinking that a union (a political organisation) has no place commenting on politics, I can't see your logic. RM lost the Amazon contract because they have repeatedly provided bad service. The irony is that RM have consistently moaned about the internet killing their business, while ignoring the boom in home shopping. Maybe it's time for a complete change of management.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[drsquare]

Unions aren't part of the market because they require a lot of legal backing to support their effectively artificial existence. In a free market Royal Mail would not have to pay £20million a year to support a union that does not benefit it as a company.

Corporations aren't part of the market because they require a lot of legal backing to support their effectively artificial existence.

And why are you talking about the free market in relation to a public service owned by the state? The point of the union isn't to benefit the company, it's to benefit the workers. Removing the union will be to the detriment of the workers, but not to the benefit of the company.

The £20 million saved will just be spent on management bonuses or more 'consignia' rebranding exercises. Or profits for the investors who buy in when the company is privatised, which is what this is all about. Dismantle the union and the company is worth more to TNT or whatever vultures pick up the pieces. No doubt for engineering all of this, Mandy will get a nice paid directorship at the end of it.

whilst 2.5million are sat jobless only able to dream of having the job, the pay and the benefits those workers have in the Royal Mail right now.

I think you over-estimate the pay, conditions and benefits of postmen.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Collective bargaining is just players in the market making the best competitive move for themselves, capitalism at its finest.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Both of you are right. Quite the paradox, no?

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[that IT girl]

I can attest to this here in the US as well--one of my customers is (was) a company with union workers, and it is directly responsible for that company going bankrupt. Nice going, union, instead of helping your workers, you put them in the unemployment line. Taking a pay cut + making sacrifices during economic downturns like any other responsible citizen > no job at all.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

"You're twenty years too late, Thatcher already destroyed the unions. This is why we have the longest working hours and most inequality in Europe. Maybe if we'd kept the unions around we wouldn't be scrapping for minimum wage agency work whilst the bankers and executives walk off with all the cash."

No, Thatcher destroyed private sector unions, hence why the British economy recovered from it's low point post-Labour in the 70s, 80s and 90s. You cannot blame her for Britain's long working hours because it is Labour that has pushed the opt-out of the EU working hour limit. Also, Labour is equally to blame for bankers running rampant, I know it's fashinable for pro-union people to blame the countries ills on Thatcher, but the longer ago Thatcher was in power, and the more our country descends into economic tragedy under Labour the less sense that argument makes.

"So workers who would otherwise make fuck-all, now get an income which may well help them pay a mortgage and raise a family. No doubt if these same workers were making £16k, you'd be whining about having to pay taxes for the services which they can no longer afford themselves."

People don't have a right to make a decent wage if they're not willing to put effort into working hard and learning skills. I would agree there is an issue when skilled, intelligent, hard working people are underpaid for sure, but in the case I'm referring to we have lazy, unskilled people getting overpaid due to union support.

"On the other hand, we have newspapers regularly telling millions of people who to vote for. Considering your anti-union views, I'd imagine the Times is the paper which tells you how to think."

Yes, that's right. Wait what? Sorry, I didn't realise I read newspapers? Nice assumption- obviously everyone whose anti-union is a Conservative that reads the Times of course. No, you see, my anti-union views stem from being a member of Unison and seeing how utterly stupid the decisions it made were, seeing how it pushed the mindless agenda and how it protected and tried to seek rewards for incompetence. My political leaning is towards the Liberal Democrats, I would vote neither Tory nor Labour.

"Britain has the weakest and smallest unions in Europe, according to right-wing dogma this should make us extremely prosperous. Instead, we're actually worse off, still in recession when everyone else is recovering."

What? You do know the only country with a stronger economy than Britain in Europe is Germany and France right? I didn't realise length in recession was the only possible measure of a countries economic strength. You do realise Germany fell further into recession than us right? and that France is only ahead of us because our reliance on the banking sector which is not good in the current economic climate yes? You do realise France could be way ahead of us if it weren't for the heavy subsidies it had to pay industries like agriculture because of it's strong farmers unions threatening to bring the entire nation to a standstill each time right? Britain still has a stronger economy than every other single country in Europe bar these two by quite a margin. It's almost certain that Britain will in a few years move ahead of France again, and for a while we were even almost ahead of Germany. I agree our reliance on finance is a bad thing, but to suggest unions have any relation to our countries imagined lack of prosperity when we're still one of the top world economies is laughable. The only country that comes close is Italy, after that it's Russia followed by Spain, whose economies are almost half the size of ours.

"The Royal Mail staff might not be on strike if the management hadn't reneged on the deal. But as your only information on the strike comes from right-wing sources, it's no wonder you're so ill-informed. They can't be struggling that much for cash if they can afford to pay Crozier several million a year."

Obviously you're dead right about my sources, because after all the BBC and The Guardian are so utterly rig

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[cellurl]

yea, but you get to watch "Green Wing".

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

"That's a peculiar comment from a country where the official government and the opposition do little for workers rights, while bailing large banks for whatever they ask. In the 70's the unions had too much power, not now."

You're making a common mistake, you're assuming in the 70s all unions were weakened, this is not the case, public sector unions were left largely untouched and as such public sector unions still have the same situation of too much power as in the 70s. The CWU is a remnant of these public sector unions that were never castrated as required.

"As for thinking that a union (a political organisation) has no place commenting on politics, I can't see your logic"

Commenting is fine, bombarding members with propaganda through the post every month like "Don't vote for X, vote for Y" is a step too far.

"RM lost the Amazon contract because they have repeatedly provided bad service. The irony is that RM have consistently moaned about the internet killing their business, while ignoring the boom in home shopping. Maybe it's time for a complete change of management."

No, RM originally gained the contract from Amazon by realising the boom in home shopping was one way to save their business. Amazon only a few weeks ago dropped the contract because of the threat of strikes (after RM strikes caused them harm last year). It was not sustainable for Amazon to use RM if they can't ensure reliability. See the following, I include a selection of sources whether you're right wing, centrist, left wing or whatever, it's fact not political biased propaganda:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/07/royal-mail-amazon-postal-strikes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/amazon-cancels-royal-mail-contract-over-strike-fears-1799381.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218937/Amazon-desert-Royal-Mail-strike-fears-leading-Christmas.html

Note also the reference to eBay, many of whose members indeed rely on Royal Mail. Royal Mail management has made strides to support the home shopping revolution- you realise you can even pay for and print of postage barcodes rather than rely on Paypal now right? The problem is all this is useless if it can't guarantee it's workers are going to show up to work to perform the actual deliveries. The Royal Mail has far from moaned about the internet killing their business, it's often been pointed out that it's a problem for them but they've always worked hard to work around the rise of e-mail rather than just moan about it as you seem to be incorrectly suggesting they do.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

"Corporations aren't part of the market because they require a lot of legal backing to support their effectively artificial existence."

What? No they don't. Businesses arose long before a legal framework was in place to support them.

"And why are you talking about the free market in relation to a public service owned by the state?"

Please either follow the conversation or don't bother responding. This comment makes no sense in the context of the discussion, it's a straw man at best.

"The point of the union isn't to benefit the company, it's to benefit the workers. Removing the union will be to the detriment of the workers, but not to the benefit of the company."

So why should the company have to pay £20m a year for it if it's not to it's benefit? Shouldn't the workers be stumping up that £20m?

"I think you over-estimate the pay, conditions and benefits of postmen."

I think you over-estimate the difficulty and worth of their job and skills. Again, particularly when there are 2.5 million people who would love nothing more than to have their job, pay and benefits without a complaint.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[elnyka]

Unions are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out.

One name: General Motors.

Unions have been great in history as tools that protect workers from employer's abuse. But that's it. Protection =/= protectionism. At the end of the day, the world is a competitive one, and if you have to rely on protectionism to guarantee a certain salary, then you will eventually be subject to harsher consequences of open, competitive markets, not to mention that the value you get remunerated with is way over the value that you actually generate.

Compete with what you have, and get remunerated according to the value you are capable of creating.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[jimbob666]

What local authorities pay that? I work in IT at a local authority and the basic IT Technician wage on our helpdesk is ~£16k. Not even second line IT Technicans get close to the £29k figure you mention.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Rolgar]

It seems to me that that's a problem between the shareholders (employer) and the executive (employee). If the shareholders don't guarantee that they're getting their money's worth out of their executives, I don't see how that justifies making sure everybody below him also should be overpaid. Owners of stock in retirement plans (all of us with 401k and IRA, education funds, and other stock ownership programs) need to create voter blocks that vote out overpaid executives and offer the job to people at rates we consider more reasonable.

Does the fact that they get away with it justify the unions keeping other people out of work to justify higher wages for the employees who got in based on who they know or are related to? We have a Goodyear plant in my town, and I heard a long time ago that to get a job, you need to be related to somebody in the union. Too bad for all those people that could have a job if the company could have reasonable hiring policies.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[PPalmgren]

I came in this thread to post about my IT background and ending up in Finance. I am in Finance paying the "union tax" parent speaks of. Labor costs for longshoreman in the US much much higher as anywhere else in the world (including Europe). The return on your US investment is poor if not negative for the shipping & terminal industry solely because of the astronomical price of the union workers. Also, since this union runs down the entire east coast, if you tick them off you have the possibility of them not working any of your ships/terminals and putting you out of business (trying to automate some of their outdated/redundant positions is a big no-no). The US shipping industry is an ugly mark on every shipping companies' books due to the insane labor cost. To be fair, GP's union is a lot better than the west coast ILWU, which makes the ILA look like saints.

Regarding switching positions, I went from IT to Finance, and I found that the computer illiteracy rate in the finance world is staggering. My IT knowledge has saved my company millions by eliminating pointless routines and by mining tracking data for gold nuggets. Knowing both Finance and IT allows you to either implement necessary small IT solutions without IT's help or be a proper language bridge between the two depts. Many failed IT projects are due to poor guidelines from the dept requesting help because they "don't speak techie". Sometimes a square peg is a good fit for a round hole.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[elnyka]

And what does the executive do that justifies his income?

For starters, this is completely irrelevant. Assuming an exec does not deserve his income, that does not necessitate that over-paid janitors get paid as ... overpaid janitors either. GM bled a lot more from over-paid janitors than what you call *overpaid* executives. Second, what they did to justify their income?

Same reason why doctors, MS in engineering, brain surgeons, lawyers and every other person who invested a decade of their life in school and collected several 10s of thousands of dollars in student loans:

They went to college, probably took shit, ate expired muffins and staled coffee for 6-10 years while going to school getting a post-grad. Took more shit as a grad student. Most likely took $20-$30K in student loans. Started from the bottom as a admin assistant (or at best as a mid-level manager taking shit from below and up). Worked and climbed the latter for an additional 10 years, eventually collecting an average of 2 decades in knowledge required to drive and manage companies.

I got that question asked once (by a computer repair guy), and I'm not even a manager, but fuck! If a person can't deserve to make an obscene amount of money after sacrificing a decade of his life in school, depriving himself of a lot of shit, accumulating a shit load of student loans, then what the hell does one makes the sacrifice for? And to top it off, to have some punk who doesn't even have a fraction of his qualifications, and who never make the job/scholastic sacrifice, asking why he deserve his salary? Screw that!.

That's something you can ask a GM stockholder too.

They know where the blame is - in missed opportunities by management second (ditching green possibilities, investing/insisting in gazz guzzlers), and a rotten, leeching mass of overpaid janitors demanding to get paid far more than competitive automaker workers are in Europe and Japan, demanding to get paid far more than what their skills entitled them for.

Hurr.

I bow to your amazing eloquence. You can

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[mikael_j]

I thought the whole point of economic growth was that everyone got richer. But then I never bought into trickle-down economics.

You just missed the part where they define "everyone" as "my frat brothers and our families". Relative to the rich regular people are always going to be poor though (in this kind of system), if the rich have a roofs over their heads then the working class is sleeping under bridges, if the rich have their own movie theaters and swimming pools then the working class has 40" LCD TVs and inflatable kiddy pools. This is, IMHO, by design with our current economic system (and most others that have been tried). Admittedly it's not so much a conspiracy as the fact that those with power and money (which leads to power) all happen to have good reasons (from their POV) to protect their relative wealth and power.

/Mikael

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[elnyka]

If six weeks vacation (not even two months) will drive a company into bankrupcy, maybe we need to rethink this whole capitalism thing.

Do you have a better, tried and true alternative? And what the hell does one do to deserve a six week vacation? Besides, take several thousand people without qualifications, getting paid more than what they contribute and on top of that getting six weeks of over paid salary, that increases operational costs for no purpose. That's not a fault of capitalism, but the fault of the misapplication and abuse of a socialist/humanist concept.

Syndicalism was to protect workers from abuse, not create overpaid janitors.

I don't see the problem with a docker making $80 an hour.

Only if a combination of his skills and job risk make him deserving of that salary.

Would it be better if everyone made minimum wage?

Nice strawman. Certainly not the minimum wage, but also certainly not above the salary of a fireman or a college-educated HS teacher.

I thought the whole point of economic growth was that everyone got richer.

How does overpaying a janitor with $80/hour make everyone richer? Do you see college-educated HS teachers getting paid $80/hour? Didn't think so.

The purpose of economic growth is that everyone got richer relative to their skill set. A janitor gets paid more than what he did before. A teacher gets paid more than what he did before. But still the relation of salaries to skills remain.

Justify me why a pampered bunch of janitors get paid much, much better than other, more educated, more vital sectors of society, or prove to me that they getting paid that much contributes to everyone getting richer, then you might have an argument worth discussing.

Until then, all you have are strawmen, and poorly built strawmen to boot.

But then I never bought into trickle-down economics.

It's not that you never bought it. It's that your understanding of economics, be it capitalist or otherwise, is superficial/ideological/googlish at best.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

I should preface this by saying that every experience I've had with a union has been negative, so I'm somewhat soured on them. I also stipulate that unions did serve a legitimate purpose once, but now most of the things they fought for are codified into law.

I would have 6 weeks paid vacation every year, great medical, stable work, and no politics or being treated like an overpaid janitor.

No politics? What the hell union is that? Every organization has politics.

Unions are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out.

Funny. I was a consultant for the federal government, and I saw the exact opposite. People who would literally come into the office say "Good morning" to me, then proceed to sleep at their desks for eight hours. One guy who spent four hours reading a newspaper every morning. A secretary who didn't bathe and therefore stank, was abusive to her coworkers, and would deliberately sabotage projects.

It took two years to get rid of her. Say what you want about corporate America, that nonsense would've lasted all of about two minutes before her ass was gone.

But the worst part about unions is the fact that they only credit time of service. So that youngster with the great ideas that saved the organization hundreds or thousands of dollars isn't rewarded with promotions, he has to wait while some twenty year union man sleeps at his desk. This was dramatically illustrated for me when a new crop of interns started working at the agency where I was consulting. They came in bright eyed and energetic, and six months later it was like someone just flipped a switch and their brains shut off. Why innovate or work hard when it doesn't matter because you won't be rewarded?

It's interesting but someone at that same agency must agree with me, because now they're increasing the number of consultants and contractors instead of replacing employees who retire. Why?
1. Once the contract/project is done, the contractor can be released.
2. Consultants are cheaper in the long run because they don't have the salary, health care costs, etc. associated with employees.
3. Consultants employed by this organization turn in products that are on time and of higher quality than the work done by employees.

Anyway, just wanted to provide a different view of the union.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. There are many unions that have NOT killed the Golden Goose. Blue collar trade unions like the longshoreman's union, the HVAC international union, the steamfitters union, plumbers union, etc, are all very successful. The same goes for government and civil service unions.

A good union strikes a balance between employee rights and employer needs. In a good agreement, the result is that the jobs being negotiated for become GOOD jobs, the kind EVERYONE had before the 1970's.

The only UN-successful union I've ever heard of was the UAW, whose mistakes have been legendary. Bringing them out as a straw man spoils your argument.

Call this "Phil's Law": As the length of any forum conversation about unions grows, the probability of a UAW straw man being brought out approaches 100%. The corollary is, "Once you've brought out the UAW straw man, you automatically lose the argument and the topic is dead".

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

I know for sure that Wakefield, Barnsley, Kirklees, Sheffield, York and Leeds certainly do. The £29k figure is for those at the top of scale SO1/2 which comes after around 5 years service, the initial figure is about £24k at the start. The £29k figure is important though as anyone getting paid that much for that low skill level will certainly hold the job long enough to be on that much, simply because they can't even get close to that with such a low skill level outside public sector. Low paid technician roles do exist for sure, but the skill difference between scale 4 and SO1/2 is non-existent in my experience- I've worked with plenty of scale 4 technicians that were better than fellow SO1/2 technicians many times when I worked in public sector, and there is no justification at all for paying these people that much money, the SCP scale 4 to 5 range is about right for the level of expertise required from most council IT support staff.

For what it's worth, the NHS and Police also often (well, not so often since the recession) have IT support jobs too. West Yorkshire police have had similarly paid adverts up a few times.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[knghtrider]

Unions are a good thing? Really? Ask the 200 union workers who voted NOT to accept what the company was offering down in Georgetown SC at the Steel Mill. The mill is closed and 200 people are out of work completely. Sure, they're getting Sub Pay and Unemployment for at LEAST another year, but there are unconfirmed rumors from the Company through the Union that the mill will remain closed through 2011.

One of the major problems with Unions is that they help create an 'entitlement' mentality in the workforce. They protect incompetent and (for want of a better term) lazy workers with contracts and draconian rules companies must follow with regard to employee termination. They set 'rules' for wage increases that the company must follow--even in times of economic impact like the one we are under where the Union employees get wage increases, while the rest of of the staff doesn't. Raises are built into the contract, the Union Workers don't have to do anything to get them. I prefer to be rewarded for a 'job well done' than be rewarded for just being there. I'm not 'entitled' to anything from the company I work for--I actually owe them (because of my faith, I work for God in reality, so I'm giving my best to Him) and am always striving to show them my best by improving constantly.

Before you flame me; I grew up in Anderson, IN. That town USED to be a major hub for General Motors (all gone now). I watched Union Workers get paid to sit outside most of the day and do NOTHING because they had easily met the 'quota' they needed to meet and could do as they pleased---because the contract SAID they could. I watched Union workers effectively steal from the company by coming home at lunch time--especially during football season and basketball season and boxing season--but not go back in, or worse--get clocked in and out on 'mandatory overtime' and be at home. How? because their 'buddies' would clock them in and out. These same workers would get caught time and time again and still keep their jobs because the Unions protected them. I watched guys collect full pay while being 'laid off' because it was part of the 'contract'.

Oh yeah..Unions are good alright...why do you think that once the gates came down, companies began outsourcing jobs as quick as they could? Yes, the labor was cheaper, but they knew they could at least depend on their workforce; because they are happy to be there.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[georgemoot]

The teacher's union of Toledo, Ohio has for years had a "peer review" policy where they would meet annually to discuss & potentially dismiss teachers that have been deemed "incompetent". This isn't the school board firing teachers... it's the teacher's union itself.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91327130

This, I think, is an example of a union doing exactly what it should be doing: Protecting it's valued members and getting rid of the dead weight. With a system in place (which is largely supported by the union members) to keep a shared level of quality among members, I would think that their bargaining power when it comes to discussing benefits & pay could be largely deserved.

If more unions took it upon themselves to actively resist providing shelter to the incompetent, I think the general impression of unions wouldn't be nearly as negative.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unicorns are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out." As someone who has worked public sector, was a unicorn fan, and even striked with the unicorns I can say that this is not entirely the case, unicorns are dangerous and I would rather see them severely weakened in the UK. Unicorns are okay if their power is kept small, but in the UK they go out of control- Unicornison, one of the UK's biggest unicorns claims over 2 million members, and despite the fact half the working population are taking paycuts right now, Unicornison is still pushing for pay rises, even though basic IT technicians are still getting paid £29k in some local authorities where their true market worth in private sector for the low levels of ability would be around £16k to £18k. Governments are powerless to say no though, because they simply can't deal with the damage caused by a unicorn that can put a good portion of it's 2 million members on strike. The story is the same with teachers whereby you have teachers strikes because secondary school teachers are underpaid whilst the same unicorn covers primary school teachers who hence get the same rises and who are hence now heavily overpaid for their job, but what can the government do? risk having an entire generation of kids education disrupted setting them back for life? Similarly, unicorns have a habit of protecting people at work regardless of the merit of that. This makes it impossible to get rid of dead weight, because you can't afford the associated costs with doing so - it's cheaper to keep those useless people in the job, providing a shit service than it is to get rid of them. We also have them acting as a strongly political tool, they mail out regularly to their 2 million members telling them who to vote for and who not to vote for, in my opinion this type of political lobbying is far beyond the remit of a unicorn, particularly one with 2 million members who have distinctly varied political views. I agree a country entirely without unicorns really would kind of suck for workers, but on the same note, as someone who lives in a country with unicorns that are simply far too powerful, and as someone who now, looking back wishes they had not given any support whatsoever to such unicorns I disagree that you want unicorns to become more popular or more powerful. They can bring countries to a standstill even when their argument has no merit- you only have to look at the current UK postal strikes for evidence of that and note also that the Royal Mail is having to pay £20m a year to provide premises and time off work for it's staff to perform unicorn activities. That's a hell of a burden on a company when the only result is for the company to get screwed over for that £20m it has had to spend. It's hard to tell what the Royal Mail strikes are even about as the official line seems to be changing daily from the unicorn involved- originally they admitted job cuts were needed and that that was not the issue but now they are saying it is about jobs. The Royal Mail has lost a £25m Amazon contract because of this, you simply can't have a unicorn holding a company to ransom like that at the expense of the company, particularly when the unicorn doesn't even seem to be able to remain consistent in what it's actual demands are!

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

What brand cars do GM stockholders drive?

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Dreaming in R'lyeh]

"Corporations aren't part of the market because they require a lot of legal backing to support their effectively artificial existence."

What? No they don't. Businesses arose long before a legal framework was in place to support them.

What? Yes, they do. Business != Corporation.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[BenEnglishAtHome]

Knowing both Finance and IT allows you to ... be a proper language bridge between the two depts.

Amen.

At one point in my career, I had several years each admin asst experience in function A, field officer experience in function B, and IT experience. I got put into one of three experimental workgroups with people from all those functions plus a couple of others.

I spent the first six months going to meetings where my biggest contribution was as a translator. The jargon differed so critically between functions (sometime identical acronyms meant completely different things) that the workgroups simply couldn't communicate worth crap when I wasn't there. After the first week, everybody invited me to every meeting, even when I had nothing to do with the work. Thankfully, after 6 months, pretty much everyone was able to talk to everyone else and make themselves understood.

After three years we disbanded. Three groups of a dozen employees each, not one who made over USD$100K per year, times support costs times three years means the total commitment of the organization to the consolidated projects was about USD$20M.

We brought in just over USD$1.3B during that time period.

Sometimes it can be might satisfying and rewarding to be something as simple as a "language bridge."

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unicorns are very good things people and sooner or later this country is going to figure out."

As someone who has worked public sector, was a unicorn fan, and even striked with the unicorns I can say that this is not entirely the case, unicorns are dangerous and I would rather see them severely weakened in the UK.

Unicorns are okay if their power is kept small, but in the UK they go out of control- Unicornison, one of the UK's biggest unicorns claims over 2 million members, and despite the fact half the working population are taking paycuts right now, Unicornison is still pushing for pay rises, even though basic IT technicians are still getting paid £29k in some local authorities where their true market worth in private sector for the low levels of ability would be around £16k to £18k. Governments are powerless to say no though, because they simply can't deal with the damage caused by a unicorn that can put a good portion of it's 2 million members on strike. The story is the same with teachers whereby you have teachers strikes because secondary school teachers are underpaid whilst the same unicorn covers primary school teachers who hence get the same rises and who are hence now heavily overpaid for their job, but what can the government do? risk having an entire generation of kids education disrupted setting them back for life?

Similarly, unicorns have a habit of protecting people at work regardless of the merit of that. This makes it impossible to get rid of dead weight, because you can't afford the associated costs with doing so - it's cheaper to keep those useless people in the job, providing a shit service than it is to get rid of them.

We also have them acting as a strongly political tool, they mail out regularly to their 2 million members telling them who to vote for and who not to vote for, in my opinion this type of political lobbying is far beyond the remit of a unicorn, particularly one with 2 million members who have distinctly varied political views.

I agree a country entirely without unicorns really would kind of suck for workers, but on the same note, as someone who lives in a country with unicorns that are simply far too powerful, and as someone who now, looking back wishes they had not given any support whatsoever to such unicorns I disagree that you want unicorns to become more popular or more powerful. They can bring countries to a standstill even when their argument has no merit- you only have to look at the current UK postal strikes for evidence of that and note also that the Royal Mail is having to pay £20m a year to provide premises and time off work for it's staff to perform unicorn activities. That's a hell of a burden on a company when the only result is for the company to get screwed over for that £20m it has had to spend. It's hard to tell what the Royal Mail strikes are even about as the official line seems to be changing daily from the unicorn involved- originally they admitted job cuts were needed and that that was not the issue but now they are saying it is about jobs. The Royal Mail has lost a £25m Amazon contract because of this, you simply can't have a unicorn holding a company to ransom like that at the expense of the company, particularly when the unicorn doesn't even seem to be able to remain consistent in what it's actual demands are!

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[BenEnglishAtHome]

Consultants employed by this organization turn in products that are on time and of higher quality than the work done by employees.

I work in a U.S. federal LEA. Around here, the quoted statement would prompt loud laughter from nearly everybody except from the one or two would would pronounce you a liar and punch you in the mouth.

Consultants can be fine when their motivations align with the motivations of the entity to which they consult. A private corp and a consultant both want to profit so it's in their interest to work together towards that common goal.

Consultants to the public sector, however, are a problem. Where the hiring entity is not established for reasons of profit but to provide some vital service, bringing in a consultant who only wants to make a profit makes their goals...er..."non-mutual."

The very best works I've ever seen in the public sector were done by dedicated public servants who hired on because they believed in the mission of the agency. They endure the long slog up the chain of timed promotions because they are dedicated to public service, not to short term profit.

There are problems with the public sector. Bureaucracy does not mesh with some personalities, causing them to perform suboptimally. Firing people is hard but it's the price we pay for ditching the spoils system. (You remember the spoils system from high school history class, right? When one party gets elected, they immediately fire everyone who's a member of the other party and vice versa? As bad as the dead weight/slow firing issue is, it's nowhere near the performance killer that a full-blown spoils system is. For an illuminating example, look at the way Chicago city government ran about 100 years ago.)

But bureaucracy is not a curse word. It's the way vital work gets done, day in and day out, without regard to who just got elected or whether the company stock just crashed. It's not efficient, but it's reliable, predictable, and absolutely necessary for vital government services.

I'm sorry you got a bad impression of that work environment. It appears to me you don't understand why things are the way they are and why the way they are is often, despite appearances, the best possible given the mission, resources, and political realities.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in the IT field for almost 20 years, then got fired twice and could not even get an interview. Now I'm working for US Customs and Border Protection. There is a 2 year probation period, with plenty of overtime available and full pay is GS-12 (which is more than I made in IT).

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know nothing.

Unions are the reason you have this thing called a "weekend".

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Waaah, waaah, they're so ENTITLED!

Yeah dude, since a B.A. and an M.B.A are so hard to get. (Admittedly the student loans are a legitimate problem, but that goes for everyone.) You're talking six years of school at most, more realistically four. This isn't medical school, and you conflating business with medicine, law, and engineering really speaks to your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Roger Smith was a perfectly ordinary ladder climber. Rick Wagoner was educated, but he was a dumbass on the job anyway. Robert Lutz was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I'm sorry, were you trying to make a point?

Take out your anger on the proles all you want. UAW deserves some blame, but GM's management was fucking terrible and you know it. You call I.T. guys glorified janitors, but executives and managerial types are just deified bean counters and salesmen. The overwhelming majority of them are nothing compared to people working in the hard-sciences, or in medicine, or in law, but their advantage is that they can convince people that they're worth more than they actually are and that's why they take home the big bucks. They're hucksters.

But you're so much better than those stupid auto workers, aren't you? Keep swinging that rhetorical bat. You might hit yourself.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are just like government: Yes both are imperfect but you get out what you put in. Without both you are completely fucked, welcome to the 3rd world.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[liquiddark]

People say this as if the poor company is the major resource that a country wants. A country governed by and for the people wants its people to have work. A union assures those people that they have the power to keep work conditions and compensation at a fair level. Anyone who thinks unions are driving companies into the ground is looking at the wrong axis of success.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[elnyka]

> Waaah, waaah, they're so ENTITLED!

Yeah dude, since a B.A. and an M.B.A are so hard to get.

Which is why you see so many of them!! Do you have one, M.B.A. in specific so that we know you talk from experience?

(Admittedly the student loans are a legitimate problem, but that goes for everyone.) You're talking six years of school at most, more realistically four. This isn't medical school, and you conflating business with medicine, law, and engineering really speaks to your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Roger Smith was a perfectly ordinary ladder climber. Rick Wagoner was educated, but he was a dumbass on the job anyway. Robert Lutz was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I'm sorry, were you trying to make a point?

Take out your anger on the proles all you want. UAW deserves some blame, but GM's management was fucking terrible and you know it. You call I.T. guys glorified janitors, but executives and managerial types are just deified bean counters and salesmen. The overwhelming majority of them are nothing compared to people working in the hard-sciences, or in medicine, or in law

Tell me a bit about your professional experience as a bean counter. I wanna know if you are talking from experience or if this is pure ideologicotardic rhetorical nonsense.

, but their advantage is that they can convince people that they're worth more than they actually are and that's why they take home the big bucks. They're hucksters.

But you're so much better than those stupid auto workers,aren't you? Keep swinging that rhetorical bat. You might hit yourself.

Fuck yeah. Been working since I was 12, starting in a 3rd world country, not in the pampered reality of the 1st world version of *poverty* , doing all kinds of prole work, including human cargo mule. Fast forward later and I'm doing whatever I can to work here in the US, from flipping burgers to driving forklifts. But with all that, I tolled away until I finally got by degree.

And then we have an overpaid janitor demanding better benefits than me even though he'd never improved his skills and education despite being born and raised in this country with all the opportunities that are just there for the taking? Screw that!

I have no problem with manual workers, shit that's where I come from. But I do have problems with manual workers that expect to get paid as much if not more than those with a college education and expect to live like that under the umbrella of protectionism, even though they were born here and never got an itch to improve their skills and education not even by a bit, with all the opportunities a 1st world country provides.

Go and whip your me-for-the-peepl3 e-dick somewhere else dude. You have no clue what you are talking about, and from what I can tell, your position on the matter lacks any form of substance.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

So that's what happens when you're an exec dumbass. Just because you couldn't handle going to school to get that level position doesn't mean you deserve commiserate bonuses because you're not an exec.

Class envy is so old world.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Since the shareholders elect the board, they must feel he's worth it.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yeah bro, rags to riches!"

What country did you come from, again? This is fun, I love creative writing. By the way, do you have an M.B.A. yourself, by chance? How many beans have you counted?

By the way, about those degrees, you do see a lot of them, actually. From '07 to '08 over 150,000 MBAs were awarded. About a quarter of all masters degrees for the year, more than at any other time before. (And it's been growing since the 70's.)

Frankly, I don't care if you're the son of a Somalian dirt farmer. I don't care if Smith and Wagoner and Lutz came from the same oh-so-deliciously-humble beginnings you claim to come from. They and their management people made bad decisions, constantly. They wrecked the company. UAW didn't make things any better, but with better leadership (if you can even call what GM had 'leadership') the company would still be around. How about you quit waving your dick around and stop changing the subject so you can badmouth your union bogeymen more?

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[elnyka]

"Yeah bro, rags to riches!"

What country did you come from, again?

Nicaragua.

This is fun, I love creative writing.

I bet you do.

By the way, do you have an M.B.A. yourself, by chance?

B.S CompSci, all but the thesis for a M.S. Might consider an additional M.S. in Systems Engineering, but an M.B.A, never. Don't have what it takes to deal with management.

How many beans have you counted?

How many have you counted? Instead of answering my previous question with another one (strawmanning much?) answer whether you have any experience in bean counting and management with which to talk on the subject.

By the way, about those degrees, you do see a lot of them, actually. From '07 to '08 over 150,000 MBAs were awarded. About a quarter of all masters degrees for the year, more than at any other time before. (And it's been growing since the 70's.)

And because you see 150,000 in a year, they are simply easy, right, much less cheap? Have you consider that many of those degrees are "professional" MBA degrees, for which you can only enroll if you have had a certain amount of years of professional experience in management or engineering? So yeah,they come easy. Come again, your management experience is in what?

Frankly, I don't care if you're the son of a Somalian dirt farmer.

Of course you don't. You would care about that only if it were to support your point of view. At least I can talk from experience and can justly criticize what people have turned unions into.

I don't care if Smith and Wagoner and Lutz came from the same oh-so-deliciously-humble beginnings you claim to come from. They and their management people made bad decisions, constantly.

Nobody has argued that this is not true. Certainly not me. Red herring.

They wrecked the company.

In addition to UAW, and certainly in large part by UAW.

UAW didn't make things any better, but with better leadership (if you can even call what GM had 'leadership') the company would still be around.

Pure speculation. UAW was a cancer to GM. It is possible that better management would have kept GM up, but it simply would have delayed the inevitable. UAW made operational costs non-competitive comparing with other auto makers in Europe and Japan.

How about you quit waving your dick around and stop changing the subject

Didn't change the subject. I brought the context of my origins to counter your obviously conniving dick-waving comment about me against the poor proletariat.

so you can badmouth your union bogeymen more?

It is not bad mounting to call an overpaid manual worker with better benefits than a HS teacher an overpaid manual worker. If calling it for what it.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[qbzzt]

I don't see the problem with a docker making $80 an hour

When you have to pay a bunch more money for anything that comes by ship, you might.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Tommy used to work on the docks
Union's been on strike, he's down on his luck
It's tough, so tough

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, so you parade around these assumptions about the UAW even though given your profession and country of origin, you've never even set foot in a factory, not that you can find many in these parts; you expect me to salute my credentials when your own are wanting by your own argument's standard (I bet you heckle people for criticizing film because they're not directors or writers, based on how you've acted so far), you claim I'm changing the subject when your little origin story has nothing to do with the argument, except for your own self promotion relative to the evil union workers you're trying to bash - just how many more feet are you going to put in your mouth before you finally give up?

But you won't give up. Narcissists like you follow a pattern. Back when you started your little tirade, you launched into it because I insinuated that the executives and management at GM weren't worth a sack of shit. Obviously, comparing 'hard working' people like you to the despised union members wounded your ego, so you felt a compelling need to reply. In your next response, you trot out this charming tale of how you slogged your way out of the jungle into a nice middle-class lifestyle, meanwhile directly comparing yourself to the people you're attacking. Then, you just had to add a couple more aces to your house of cards by including more details of your charmed life, just to make you even more exempt from your own argumentative standards. If you wave that thing around any faster, you'll take off like a helicopter.

That said, everyone gets it, you hate the UAW. Do you want a medal for it? That still doesn't absolve the, and I quote, 'stunningly poor' management of General Motors, which includes the eternally myopic Rick Wagoner - a grossly overpaid counter of beans himself. Their corporate roster was stacked with morons, and no matter how big of a drag the UAW put on GM, the company fell apart from the top down. For more perspective, how about giving 'On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors' a read?

By the way, I'm sure the rest of the class is enchanted by your mastery of argumentative fallacies and the names thereof. Browser tabs sure are great, huh?

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[joeyg1973]

So I knew that the union comment would take a beating. I always get the sense that those against unions are just like the higher ups. They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. Since you all went after the low hanging same old same old fruit that hold no merit. As to unions giving a sense of entitlement, you are damn straight. If you put in 5 or 50 years of work at a company you should have a sense of entitlement. You have helped this company become what it is and you should be entitled to be proud of your job and your work. As to getting rid of unions because they protect the lazy workers which are a small minority. Or, unions are bad because I once heard a story about a union that voted against taking a pay cut and the company shut down. Using this logic, we should abolish freedom of speech because there are is a small minority of crazies out there that will say just about anything and just about anything because they can. We should also get rid of the right to bear arms because there are a small amount of nut jobs out there that will get all the guns they can and shoot people. The Police should be disbanded because there is a small minority out there that abuse their power. Face it, it's a piss poor argument because all human constructs are flawed. If you go looking for a problem, you will find several in everything, but they doesn't mean we should eliminate it because of those problems. The good out weights the bad when it comes to unions. As to the statement that unions are no longer needed because the government has laws that protect the worker today. Yeah keep telling yourself that. You simply cannot live on minimum wage in this country without working some crazy hours like an 80 hour week, that is a fact. Almost all the minimum wage jobs you can get will only allow you to work part time so that they don't have to pay for health insurance which means you need several part time jobs at minimum wage to get the ridiculous amount of hours you need to just barely scrape by. Oh and forget health insurance because you can't afford it and of course all those hours you spend working are contributing to your good heath. The government nor a company isn't going to pay attention to one individual, but a union it will. Unfortunately in this country thanks to years and untold amount of money lobbying and discrediting unions, corporations have been able to enact many laws against unions in this country that have marginalized unions. The result of this is that we have the current work and health care abuses and a lot of other things that are completely out of balance in this country. Here is a kicker... I just read in the paper here on Sunday that corporations are lobbying harder than ever to allow more foreign works into this country to do tech jobs because there are simply not enough qualified candidates. UM BULLSHIT! I would send this into both my congressmen and my senators, but all this winds up doing is getting me on their junk mail list. On the other hand if I had a union that had a much larger pocket, voice, and pull I could have a chance to fight it. Oh and the GM stockholders got the shaft because people that knew the cost of everything but the value of nothing keep making shit cars with Tupperwear interiors and features that were state of the art 10 years ago. Despite what you may have heard, the union workers at GM don't make much if anything more than non union shops. But I can guarantee you that without the union, all automotive companies would be paying minimum wage part time only on the assembly line. If you need any more evidence that the GM higher ups are morons the fact that they are killing off Pontiac rather than spinning it off as a separate company if a perfect example.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

Yeah, it's similar to the British Medical Council for example that defines who can become a doctor in the UK and will disqualify those not fit for practice. That's certainly a much better system, although it doesn't class itself as a union however it does massage wages in other ways, keeping their pay artificially high by controlling access to the profession. Still, I'd rather they do that whilst ensuring people are fit to practice and doing away with those who are not, than push for high pay via strikes and even allowing incompetent people to cash in on that.

Like you say that on you cite is the ideal union- unions must take responsibility for their members.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

The executives lead the company. I really don't like the excessive compensation either or the extreme severance packages, but they were chosen by their board member buddies / stockholders to lead. So they should be rewarded when they do well, and be the first to go when they do poorly. How many stockholders complain when the company makes a huge return on the stockholders investment? Board members of corporations are chosen by stockholders, and someone (board members? stockholders?) has to decide the board member's compensation. When that compensation includes millions for increased profitability and millions as a severance, you have to hold the people that chose that compensation responsible if you don't like it.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

> And what does the executive do that justifies his income?

If you have to ask, then you'll never be an executive. Xest, well put.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to spend some time in a place like South Korea, where there are no unions. People working for a month straight with no day off, and shit pay. No creativity or innovation, not that there's time for it, just reverse engineering.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Capitalism is not the problem, it's the commi peddling Euro royal elite that are destroying it's credibility that is.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[elnyka]

you win!!(10+1)

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a really weird post.
You talk like your for free market capitalism and then you denounce free market capitalism.
All the UAW did was ask for benefits and salaries? The management was on the other side of the table and gave it to them.

I see people now who are being paid salary wages and putting in 70 to 80 hours per week on salary, because they fear for their jobs.
How do you think they are going to improve their skill levels. They have AS degrees, when do you think they are going to have time to go back to school.

Where is your proof of having come from a 3rd world country, flipping burgers and such?
As a person who has multiple degrees in the sciences and has worked in business's large and small for over 20 years, I can say that you unequivocally should get your money back from the University of Phoenix. Because if you paid more than 4,000 dollars for your degree, all you got was a piece of paper, which has turned you into a total ass.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like the opposite of the US. In the US I believe it's illegal for government employees to form a union.

In the US private sector most occupations don't have unions anymore and corporations (as "artificial" an entity as unions) routinely push wages for workers down while pushing wages for do nothing executives up. With all the jobs being shipped overseas, there's not much a union could do at this point anyway for jobs like IT...

All things in moderation. Laws are needed to curb the extreme greed on both sides of the equation. As long as politicians need tons of money to get elected (at least in the US), I don't see that changing here. They are bought and paid for...

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

We have working hour limits in the UK (you can opt out of them in Britain) and a minimum wage. The working hour limits cover the maximum amount of hours you're allowed to do in a week, state that you must have at least I think 8 or 10 hours time between shifts, and must have a day off at least once every x amount of days- I can't remember the exact number but it's quite low.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

'...unions are dangerous and I would rather see them severely weakened in the UK.'

This isn't an accurate description of where I work - in a University. Unison, mentioned by the poster, are very moderate. It's accepted the minute pay rise offered by management - which is fair enough given the economic situation though I'm pretty sure senior management performance bonuses will be hefty (ho ho). Most people don't want to lose their pay by going on strike. Where pay and conditions are poor (plenty of that around in the UK, lots of low paid or minimum wage jobs) you certainly do need a union. Having been in a job where each year I got poorer (my pay went up a bit less than inflation, there were no grade increments, while senior management got stunning bonuses), the only hope was the union or leaving. I left. A fair dealing hard bargaining union is a good thing for a business - it reduces staff turnover, reduces personnel costs, keeps people committed to their jobs.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[joeyg1973]

BTW my father who has been down the docs for 46 years makes about 28 an hour thank you very much. Of course anything before 8am and after 5pm is time and a half and anything on the weekends is time and a half. There are also meal hours which are double. It's not a ridiculous amount of money, but you can make a lot by doing overtime. Considering that as long as a ship is in port it is loosing money, you work a ship for x number of days to get to unloaded and loaded. So if it is there for 3 day, you work 3 days straight with the appropriately paid amount of time break based on the equipment you are driving and the team you are working with. So there goes your 80 an hour BS.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[joeyg1973]

If the UAW is killing GM and not the fact they produced crap for years and are only now almost on par in quality with the rest of the world, still have tupperware interiors and features in their cars that consumers dreamed about 10 years ago. I am pretty sure Ford would be in the same boat... yet somehow they are not... go figure.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Xest]

"Unison, mentioned by the poster, are very moderate. It's accepted the minute pay rise offered by management - which is fair enough given the economic situation"

But if Unison had been offered no increase at all or even a decrease like over half of the rest of the country? What would Unison's reaction be then? What exactly have staff done to warrant a pay increase that everyone else in the country that's had to settle for a pay decrease or risk losing their jobs done? Why should these people fund your pay increase when you've done no more to warrant it than they have and when they're taking a decrease? The fact there was expectation of pay rise at all is in itself disgusting in the current climate and with such high public sector debt.

Public sector should not be receiving a pay rise at all this is the point- it has not acted in an extraordinary manner through the financial crisis to warrant reward, public sector debt is at an all time high and needs to be cut somehow, yet you feel public sector employees deserve to keep on taking pay increases in this climate?

I don't disagree with your sentiment on managers, directors and so forth getting bonuses that are often entirely undeserved don't get me wrong, but I also don't understand this sense of entitlement that people have where they feel they're owed a payrise each year just for turning up and doing their job. If you work somewhere and go well above and beyond and they still don't give you a rise, then quit and go elsewhere as you did. The public sector way is a farce though where people get annual payrises and scale increments just for turning up and half of them don't even do that half the time yet still get their guaranteed raises. Sure you may be one of the few hard workers that does go well above and beyond, but this far from describes all public sector workers, due to the inability to get sacked for all but the most horrific screw ups in public sector most people get away with not even fulfilling the basic criteria of their job description let alone going above and beyond that.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Scrutinizing the UAW for what happened to GM is like saying a chip of paint caused your car to break down.

The truth is, cronyism and bureaucracy ruled the day inside General Motors, and the inevitable bureaucratic overload coupled with thirty years straight of poor decisions and crap products (resulting in a sagging market share and poor sales) is what brought the company to its knees. (With the recession being the killing blow.) It's not 'pure speculation', it's observable fact backed up by countless figures and personal accounts from inside the company. Here's a good one right here:

"Executive vice president, F. Alan Smith, who followed Reuss, outlined a gloomy picture. From 1980 through 1985, he told the group, GM spent $45 billion in capital investment, yet increased its worldwide market share by only 1 percentage point, to 22 percent. Until mid-1986, the capital-spending plan called for an additional $35 billion through 1989, but that had been reduced.

"For the same amount of money," he told the GM managers, "we could buy Toyota and Nissan outright," instantly increasing the market share to 40 percent."

-- 'Rude Awakening' by Maryann Keller

Here's another one:

"Operating decisions were more and more being made on The Fourteenth Floor. This is because men rose in power who did not seem to have the capabilities or broad business outlook necessary to manage the business. They had gotten into power because they were part of a management system which for the most part put personal loyalties from one executive to another, and protection of the system above management skills; and put the use of corporate politics in the place of sound business leadership. They consequently lost sight of the corporation's management goals of keeping a keen eye on the marketplace and a firm hand on the corporate tiller.

I figured that an urgent program of comprehensive planning could be combined with a push for more sophisticated marketing to create a new corporate awareness on Fourteen.

We seem to forget that a cloistered executive, whose only social contacts are with similar executives who make $500,000 a year, and who has not really bought a car the way a customer has in years, has no basis to judge public taste.

Our inability to compete with the foreign manufacturers is more due to management failure than anything else. Past managements spent our lush advantage extravagantly ... the system and management are stifling initiative. Leadership and innovation are impossible ... Not only are these people of no help, most of what they do is wrong. After a short time, the isolated executives would find their markets taken away by competitors who were attuned to the wants and needs of the public and who were exercising their franchises to operate responsibly."

-- John DeLorean, 1979

And that's just the tippy-top of the iceberg. The propensity for self-sabotage displayed by GM was nothing short of astounding.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[bodland]

Remember that night in the Garden you came down to my dressing room and you said, "Kid, this ain't your night. We're going for the price on Wilson." You remember that? "This ain't your night"! My night! I coulda taken Wilson apart! So what happens? He gets the title shot outdoors on the ballpark and what do I get? A one-way ticket to Palooka-ville! You was my brother, Charley, you shoulda looked out for me a little bit. You shoulda taken care of me just a little bit so I wouldn't have to take them dives for the short-end money. You don't understand. I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what I am, let's face it. It was you, Charley.

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point. Just because you're in a certain position of influence and authority within a company doesn't mean you're actually worth anything. The history of General Motors is a massive exercise in this.

The crony system within General Motors elevated people to positions of status and authority (complete with grossly overgenerous compensation) who had no business being in those positions. Those people went on to lead the company in completely wrong directions, to miss opportunities, to lose touch with the markets they served, to continue losing market share, and to continue losing precious brand loyalty. This bureaucratic death by a thousand cuts is what killed the company, and since that's what this argument is about - some chucklefuck farting his anti-labor 'santorum' all over the thread - it's very relevant.

That's the context the statement is being made in, and exactly why we could ask General Motors stockholders (the foggy eyes and deaf ears of the company) what they think about that. You know what answers you'll get?

"We never saw it coming! I bet the unions did it!"

Sure they did, Huck. Sure they did. It wasn't the decades of dickery that pervaded the entire company's management structure, heavens no. It couldn't have been the totally unlikable cars and trucks they approved for production, either. (You could barely give the damn things away.) When is America going to stop hunting for scapegoats and actually examine the company's history?

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[plague3106]

GM bled a lot more from over-paid janitors than what you call *overpaid* executives.

Show how I seriously doubt that. Maybe if you exclude paid country club memberships, use of a private jet whenever they want, the company paying their income tax for them, limos to go whereever they want, paid for vacations, etc. That stuff adds up REALLY fast.

I'm not even really sure WHAT a CEO does. Signs contracts? So what? Most of the hard work is NOT done by the CEO, and there is serious doubt that they really contribute anything other than "yes, we'll do this, no we won't do that."

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, you can work like a slave for a few years until your job is outsourced to Eastern Bumfuckistan, and take your free market mentality to the soup kitchen. Sorry, one looks like a slightly better deal than the other...

Re:I wish I had stayed down the docks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's a load of propagandistic bullshit.

I'm in a union and you are not.

So I have job security and you do not.

And I have a living wage and you do not.

And I have benefits that you do not.

And I can do a good job, free of management interference, while you can not.

And one day, I'll retire, and get a full pension, with benefits, while you do not.

Perhaps I'll tip well.

See you at Starbucks.

Bean Sprout Farming

[serps]

Seriously. You can start with one bag of seed and a few plastic buckets and sell to local businesses (especially organic businesses and asian stores since they sell larger quantities) and scale up from there. Inventory isn't a huge problem since it only takes 72 hours to grow the sprouts, and you can buy the seed by the 25kg bag.

Obviously, I'm simplifying things, but honestly it's a business that's incredibly easy to get into, resistant to non-local competition due to the perishability of the sprouts, and if you can 'get it right', you can definitely market on quality

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[tomhudson]

While you're at it, why not sell raman noodle trees? With the economy the way it is there's bound to be people who would fall for that sort of scam on craigslist or feebay.

Or you can sell them baggies full of cheerios - just tell them they're donut seeds.

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[Tablizer]

To motivate you, imagine a Beowulf cluster of them.

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[Anonymous Coward]

s/Bean Sprout Farming/Weed/g

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[serps]

Laugh all you want. If my IT job weren't freaking awesome, I'd farm bean sprouts.

Eyeballing the numbers, I'd work 6 days a week, but make well over 100k per year.

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[oldhack]

Damn that ramen noodle tree. That just busted me up - scared my neighbors. Meh, they already think I'm crazy.

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[Anonymous Coward]

wait, let me guess. You don't care who we do it through, you just think it's a great opportunity, but incidently you have some great materials for sale at your web site that would make it a lot easier to get started. link. really, check it out.

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[Larryish]

Sounds promising.

What qualifications and checks are in place for sprout farming?

In other words, what government assholes do you have to deal with in order to farm sprouts?

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[Eil]

What does the FDA think of this?

Re:Bean Sprout Farming

[nurb432]

Pot has a higher market value.

half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Anonymous Coward]

other people's poop. So why not switch to nursing

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[mikael_j]

Perhaps because there's a difference between cleaning up actual feces while being told to do so by people who see you as the person who is there to clean up poop (in a very literal sense) and cleaning up "mental poop" while being told to do so by people who see you as either the "computer janitor" or "that geeky guy who does stuff with computer codes and what not"?

Also, where I live the only people who seem to be making less money than nurses are McDonald's employees and the poor bastards stuck in tech support (really, a few special nursing classes that teach you basics like "put the pillow under the patient's head, not over it while pushing down really hard" and "if someone comes into the hospital bleeding and limping, call for a doctor right now" during high school will generally earn you significantly better pay than 3-4 years of university level computer science around here).

/Mikael

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Anonymous Coward]

fuckin A, man.

a couple years ago, i walked into a room (for a large public-service institution) to repair some computer problem. the person that uses that computer, who sent in the request, took one look at me and motioned me to the garbage can.

as if i was the janitor. which didn't offend me. what did offend me was she thought i could be a janitor too stupid to find the garbage can.

i smiled, and took her garbage out, and left her with the computer problem. fucking bitch.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Anonymous Coward]

I applaud you, good sir.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[bigman2003]

Not quite the same, but...

I work for part of a University that has a name that sounds like a telemarketing firm.

Frequently, one of my high level clients will call me in a panic and leave a message. I call back, but 50% of the time I get screened by a receptionist who just assumes I am trying to sell something.

If the client is a jerk, I don't even bother to explain. I'll wait until they call back and then tell them I got screened.

This happened to one client 5 or 6 times. Finally I explained to the secretary who I was, so the call would go through. The secretary said, "Oh, I know who you are...but she gave me a list of words to use to screen calls with. And your unit has two of those words in the name. Besides, it's fun to watch her get mad when she doesn't get the call."

I don't blame the secretary at all. But then again, you could only get away with that in the public sector.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Unoti]

as if i was the janitor. which didn't offend me. what did offend me was she thought i could be a janitor too stupid to find the garbage can

She does sound like a jerk. Here's some ideas on how to reduce how often this happens, though.

Consider shaving and neatly grooming yourself, and wearing more professional clothes that have been recently laundered correctly. Make a conscious effort to hone some social skills: exude confidence as you approach the customer, look alert, and engage them warmly and announce what you are there to do.

Look the part, play the part, and people's reactions will follow.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Publikwerks]

How do you know she didn't open a false ticket to get you to take her trash out? She played you.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Ritchie70]

Really it's social engineering for the forces of good.

Just like a guy in a telco uniform with a tool box and a clipboard can probably get into the wiring closet at a lot of companies.

I work for a large retailer. I'm pretty confident (based on past experience) that I could walk into one with a toolbox and a piece of paper with our logo on it and be allowed to do almost anything I want to the POS system.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit I don't even work at a retailer. I worked in a restricted facility and on two occasions they have allowed people to walk into our server room with nothing but a hard hat, tool belt and a clipboard. On one occasion the guy was a contractor and didn't even have the same logo as our service provider.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[JumpDrive]

excellent, wish I could mod you funny.

My garbage is getting kind of full.

Re:half the jobs in IT are cleaning up

[uniquegeek]

Introducing yourself when you call someone and stating your reason for calling is basic politeness/etiquette.

If you have a relevant reason for calling, it should not be difficult to get through to the person you need.

Forget software engineering.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually man, I make more money selling magazine subscriptions, than I ever did at Intertrode!

Only bad thing is I have to pretend I'm a recovering crackhead.

-Steve

Re:Forget software engineering.

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you have my stapler.

Re:Forget software engineering.

[CptNerd]

Yeeeeeaaaaaahhh...

Is it IT that's bad...

[Aliotroph]

or it is the specific area you've been working in recently? IT seems to have such a range of things you can do, and they can be very different. When I worked in tech support I dealt with all kinds of people, but didn't have to do anything very difficult technically. When I helped write code for research projects I learned new things and dealt with almost no people. Tech support also had a lot of extra corporate weirdness I had to deal with. Then there's my uncle who works as a systems analyst in a COBOL shop. I don't think he's learned much new in decades, but he likes it and makes a pile of money.

  You didn't say what it is you do, but maybe before you decide to leave IT altogether you'll think of some area you like more than what you're doing now. Maybe you won't. If there's something else you really like doing then it's definitely worth investigating, but like some guys here have already said, make sure you check out the employment options and the finances compared with your budget.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[mlts]

You hit upon something here. There are a lot of IT related fields. One can be a sysadmin, a DBA, an admin watching over developer projects, an architect who designs infrastructure, the network admin who sets up the core/edge structure, the implementers who implement, the security auditor, the corporate compliance people, etc.

I wonder if people might be better off changing their IT field, rather than leaving the industry completely and starting from ground zero. For example, changing from a sysadmin specialty to a DBA would require a lot less retooling than changing completely out of IT and not having any common skills.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[Captain Hook]

Personally I think that it's the retooling which is appealing; changing the field of IT you are working in doesn't really give you new skills just a new domain to apply those existing skills to.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, IT has its bad side, but there are definitely a lot of worse careers out there. I left IT a few years ago to try out being a journalist with noble intentions -- it was a terrible mistake: that entire industry is in shambles, there are huge barriers to entry (you will not just get a job at a good media outlet unless you are related to someone there, or have special circumstances that make you more attractive such as a minority status), and the idea of doing something that is giving back to society doesn't really materialize after you discover what it is really about. Needless to say, I went running back to IT in less than a year, and I've been working hard to try to catch up with where I left off. There are likely better career alternatives out there than journalism, but the point is be careful what you pick if you leave IT, and look at your other options in IT before you go.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[MrKaos]

I wonder if people might be better off changing their IT field, rather than leaving the industry completely and starting from ground zero.

huh? Doesn't everyone already do this. I have been in it for 22 years now and I went from sysadmin to programming to dba. IT was my passion since school and the bottom line here is you should only be in IT if you enjoy it because the pressure can really mess with you. I used to play a game and track peoples progress who said they 'got into IT for the money'. I got into IT because I liked learning about things, people who do it only for the money can't really hack the pressure.

People are variable as in any place and respect is something earned, the best advice I can offer anyone is don't be an asshole.

Yes you probably are smarter than a lot of people in the room, but maintaining humility is a key to earning respect in IT, sure geeks prefer you to be right rather than nice, but guess what the rest of the human race prefers - you should really learn about ocytocin responses and body language. So instead of being a prima-donna, be an authority. Instead of being a closed book, let people in - let them like you because your a person and so are they. Learn about business (it's not that hard) because that is why IT departments exist and if can speak like a business person about why a certain course of action is appropriate you will gain respect.

So having said all that I am considering a career change, not because I dislike IT in fact it's been a great adventure (so far) and I have met all sorts of people, but because after all this time I've already been doing other stuff and I like the idea of exploring my capabilities. And it's not just one thing over time I have been making a slow career change into two areas (I haven't decided how they fit together yet) by building my business infrastructure and creating a recording studio (produced a jazz album a few months ago).

I also recently attended a career change seminar and would recommend anyone give this a go if you get a chance. I assessed the possibility of university (no degree for me - would like to formalise my knowledge base), technical school, Army, police, feds, Film production school, sales and business school and a MBA all in less than two hours - totally worth it.

I don't know if this advice is useful to anybody but after 20 years, yes, I have met my share of ungrateful mean spirited people and found it's usually better just to walk away. I've always maintained the moral right to any code I've produced and also my dignity.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[Quazion]

I used to be SysAdmin/Support so i started my own Support Company which got me burn out.
I was so sick of IT that i decided todo something else, i became a technical project manager for a market research company. We did a lot of online research so my past knowledge was perfect for this job. After about two years i moved and had to leave that job, now i am Software Tester for another market research company. Its a lot more IT, but it doesn't have the fast pace of the SysAdmin world.

Conclusion: I agree better to change your IT field once a while and do something that feels good.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Some people don't like Helpdesk because they don't like dealing with people. But some people like talking to people face to face.

And others don't like to deal with people but like to work on solutions alone.

There are so many different fields in IT.

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

I did this exact thing right before the dot com collapse. The problem is I walked into an IT nightmare, white boxes, no security no nothing. For every penny I wanted to spend to upgrade and protect the system it was viewed as a drain and not necessary. IT in some of those industries is looked at as a drain. My favorite came from a bean counter one time who said we are not a high tech company. My response is, if your customers are using e-mail to communicate shouldn't you? If your competitors are taking advantage of process controllers connecting to Portal services shouldn't you? If you are seeing web based reporting, electronic documents and portal sites as part of bid specs shouldn't you invest in it? Every time they talk about cuts it is always about cutting IT costs. 50 million a year company with a $250k a year IT budget. Does that sound right?

Re:Is it IT that's bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish people realized that cutting IT costs is the same thing as removing locks on all but the outer doors of a building or replacing security cameras with stuffed animals.

Computer security can be in some cases more important than building security. Mainly because a broken in building requires thieves to have a physical presence. A hijack from remote can be done by people who live in a country with a government indifferent, or even encouraging compromise of Western interests. Also, come insurance, if a building is broken into, one can point to the smashed door and show someone did a B&E. There can be little or no evidence come a breakin via the Internet.

The sad thing is that companies focus on next quarters almost exclusively. Few focus on what is going to hit them hard in more than a year or two. So, bean counters tend not to worry about security, and assume they can always call "Geek Squad" if they do get a break in. They don't know what a determined and knowledgable intruder can do to a company if given access. Even worse, when the company does go south, they end up at another company making the same salary while the rest of the firm went bankrupt.

ex-DBA here

[Dexter Herbivore]

I was working as a DBA in the mining/exploration industry until a few years ago. I got sick of constant corporate takeovers and mergers that went with the industry at the time, it's not fun looking for a new job every 14 months because some other company bought out the exploration rights and had their own staff and systems. On top of that, after my last redundancy I travelled around Europe and swore to never again look at a drillhole data log. Now I work as a civil servant overseeing the Thoroughbred, Standardbred and Greyhound racing industry. It's taken me 5 years worth of work here to finally get back to the level of income that I had at age 23, but the job satisfaction now is immense. It did take a few years to adjust and slowly work my way up the food chain but I wouldn't go back to IT and ungrateful/idiotic/anti-technology positions again. Ultimately I found that job satisfaction and regular hours far outweighed the extra money I made in IT.

I kind of did it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a Network Security Engineer at a bank for eight and a half years and before that a Sr. Server Admin for eight years (16 years in IT total). I eventually got in a similar mood of being fed up and fell in to a Sales Engineer (Systems Engineer) role rather easily and WITH better pay to boot, much better when things are selling (darn recession). Spending more time at home, no late night phone calls anymore (I get to sleep now), no work calls while on vacation, people thank me more than they ever have before and more money, I'm thinking I made the right choice. You have to be a good people person and good on your feet but I really enjoy what I'm doing and don't have a target painted on my back anymore (IT is a thankless job to begin with and wearing more hats and getting less respect finally hit the wall with me I got out). Good luck on whatever you choose to do!

Re:I kind of did it!

[Anonymous Coward]

While I was between "real" (i.e. tech support) jobs, I worked as a part-time salesperson at a mall electronics store. I thought I'd hate it, but it was actually kind of enjoyable. It was nothing like the kind of sales that involves cold-calling reluctant customers. I was dealing with people who wanted some technology in their lives (contrasted with the technophobes who resent technology, in my previous and current jobs in tech support), I got to show off my knowledge of the stuff and give them good advice, and just about every customer interaction ended with them being either happy about the purchase I'd just helped them with, or at the worst just disinterested but appreciative of my efforts to help them (contrasted with support "customers" unhappy that I couldn't fix their problem, or blaming me as representative of IT for the fact that they had to use the crap they'd been given). And yeah: I never had to worry about the job following me home. I miss it. Too bad I couldn't live on the sales job's pay. And telling people where I was working was always a little embarrassing, because a part-time job at the mall seems a bit pathetic for someone with two degrees and 15 years of work experience. Plus, staying with that job for another year would've permanently killed a career in the sharklike world of IT, where if you stop moving forward, you're dead meat.

it's not about th

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a web developer, went to law school to change careers. Went to a good school, focused on IP. Got top marks in those classes, graduated with honors. Discovered the only people who make 'lawyer money' are working horrible corporate jobs; working longer hours in worse office dynamics than anything I ever saw in IT. I have a tech-related BA (not BS), so I'm not eligible for the Patent Bar.

Now I have unbelievable debt, working two part-time "legal" jobs for total 1/3 the pay of my last IT contract; and I'm the "computer guy" at both- coding legal analysis software and developing a case-management database while getting called a researcher. Sometimes I get to do complex lawyerly tasks like picking up files at the courthouse and photocopying them. I can't jump back to webdev easily, because I'm 3 years behind on all the tech.

Will I be happier in the long term? Probably, if I can find the right work environment and develop the contacts/experience to succeed hanging out my own shingle. I do like the law (and it's a surprisingly easy transition from coding to legal analysis... not to mention understanding Boolean queries means you automatically rock Lexis). But I'm pretty sure that if I'd stuck it out for those three years in the freelance IT consulting work I was doing before I left, I'd be doing pretty okay, too.

Ultimately you have to ask yourself whether it's the type of work itself that you don't like; or the particular employment situation in which you find yourself. While my day-to-day work experience isn't what I want it to be, school prompted my move from New York to a much smaller city, and that change alone improved my life substantially. If I had it to do over again, I would have packed up and moved everything- totally shaken up my life- without changing careers.

Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

IT jobs get absolutely no respect any more.
They get paid crap.
They have *ON CALL* work.
They have to read the minds of dolts who make more money (and work in a more sex balanced environment and who often get to go out drinking on the company dime).

I had to beg our manager to take the guys to lunch. And he wouldn't spring 15 bucks for an appetizer.

Meanwhile the other side of the building is meeting for drinks at the bar at night dropping easily 10 to 20 bucks per person.

At my friend's company, the IT folks get up at 6am, get left at work while everyone goes out drinking for extended lunches (because they are "sales and executives")-- entire company is smaller than my last team. Executives my ass.

Somehow, we let them do this to us. When I was getting into the field, we were priest kings in air-conditioned rooms with complete power. But with each passing year, we underbid each other and passed control over to people who worked us to death.

Leave the field.
If your in it, learn to fail gracefully.
Negotiate for more money and leave when they don't give it to you. Leave them in a lurch.

This all sounds like a troll but it's more bitterness seeing complete idiots making 6 and 7 figure salaries while the "intelligent" folks are working as slaves.

How did it come to this?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

They focused on social networking and their route up the ladder while you were focusing on technology. The people at the top of the ladder are like them, hence they get along and their way to the top is easier. They don't understand you or even like you around. You're a necessary evil and your intelligence is a threat to them.

If you read Catch 22, you're Orr. If you didn't, go read it now.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I get respect because I dropped the attitude you currently are showing.

IT doesn't generate any revenue. We are infrastructure. We are rent but we have souls, and feelings and personalities.

I make conversations. I make friends. No one should know command lines or registry hacks or why their Internet is slow. That's my job and it is up to me to explain it well to them.

As for people getting paid more - that's because they are more valuable to the company's viability.

Having known 6, 7 and 8 figure salary folks I can assure you that you can't do their jobs. I'm sorry if you don't think that's fair. You and your job are replaceable but those highly paid folks require high levels of experience, intelligence and competence (and connections).

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

How?

Because we're too stupid.

People consider airline pilots "glorified bus drivers", that could be further from the truth. Take that to IT and we're just "glorified janitors" who clean up computers and install ink or whatever other IT stuff that people can't seem to wrap their head around.

If they can cut costs, they will do it which is why the job will go to the lowest bidder. A lot of the time this means that they're pretty much hiring idiots who can't do their job adequately.http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/10/27/2127259/Moving-Away-From-the-IT-Field?art_pos=1#

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Splab]

The bubble bursts and a lot of people realized that quite a lot of "professionel" IT had absolutely no idea what they where doing.

Look on the bright side though, currently bankers, real estate agent etc. are getting the same treatment.

Also, IT is hard to quantify, a "key account manager" is quite easy to quantify in terms of turnover, and IT is often socially inept people, they aren't good at fighting back.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

Simple: there are too many in IT who actually believe in the philosophy of "Atlas Shrugged" - a race-to-the-bottom, out-compete-each-other-for-the-good-of-mankind philosophy.

Ayn Rand and the army of philosophical libertarians in the U.S. whose intellect (required to understand the philosophy and economics behind it) naturally puts them in positions of influence and power via which these ideas are implemented (example: Alan Greenspan, a deep fan of Rand), along with the army of free-market economists who use their own work as faux-empirical justification for libertarian economic policies, NEVER talk about the humanitarian downsides of a hyper-competitive feedback loop/death-spiral... except to mock them in "Atlas Shrugged" (America's second most-influential book after the Bible, according to one survey conducted in the early 1990s).

I say this as a slowly-recovering right-libertarian (and developer) myself, turned moderate left-libertarian.

We in IT have cut our own personal income profit margins and raised our hours in an attempt to out-compete each other; we've raised the bar year after year on ourselves. We have, in short, cut our own throats. We now, and increasingly-moreso, live in the cutthroat environment we (and admittedly, I) have so often advocated.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

I left it. I went to management because I had a brain and saw the writing on the wall. IT may not generate any revenue... but IT didn't spew 2.7 million dollars on a project IT had said (not once, not twice, but THREE times) was a non-starter before it even began. But the bright boys upstairs told us we were idiots and gave it to an overseas dot firm who said it could be done. And now no one talks about it. But that's 27 U.S. jobs worth of wasted money.

Given half a chance, IT is also hell of a good polisher and can bring great efficiency to processes. But these days, SOX and stupid executives intervening in literally single line code changes make what used to be a 4 hour no brainer into an 8 week cost justification nightmare. You wouldn't believe the miniscule level of code changes that require three or four meetings with people who have no IT experience to approve. But it pays for now. It's horrendously wasteful and has been lampooned in dilbert for years with just cause. 7 years ago, if something made sense to refactor ,we just did so.

Meanwhile, at my friend's company they
a) drove away one programmer so ineptly they were successfully sued.
b) then drove away a second one (and were shocked).
c) are going to hire a "friend of the boss" who has *NO RELEVANT TECHNICAL SKILLS* to replace the programmers because "they need a job right now."
d) are leaving my friend with 6am on-call. They expect her to train the new idiot. I personally don't think new idiot will last with the hours. I've recommended go elsewhere she leave them without any support. They've earned it by placing no value on her. Hell, she even found out she was making less than the people who left and she had written the code and trained them. Businesses don't have ANY decency!!! They are pigs and deserve no loyalty but boy.. they sure ask for it and expect it.

There is no justification for a 7 or 8 figure salary for someone who didn't found the company.
Anything 7 figures and up is ripping off the shareholders of return on their investment.
It's like hollywood accounting-- our local paper had an article on the poor medical companies who are only making 5% profits-- but left out the fact that their "salaryman" ceo's and presidents took most of the profit in salary and bonuses.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Re: "How did it come to this?"

The answer: Greed, power and the corporation's never ending need for it. The truth is, big business these days does not care about there emplyees. Especially when they can get them over seas for less pay and more hours to over work them.

I myself am in IT too. I am a self employed computer technitian. I created my job on less than a $100 dallors and the willingness to get to work. I don't want to be rich. Just happy. I might have a good month and a slow one after that and its okay for me. I like what I do and my customers enjoy my dedication to quality work and being personable. I believe small businesses can turn things around. Greed and a constant qwest for power will destroy them.

If you have a good skill and know how to do something positive for others, yourself and can make money at it too, then I suggest going into business for yourself and screw the buttheads that don't know what quality is.

"and if you can 'get it right', you can definitely market on quality"

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not trying to talk nasty about you, but uh, how hard did you have to hit your head?

Both before you picked up Objectivism, and then when you left it?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[thynk]

How did it come to this?

We let them take away our over voltage cattle prods. Plain and simple.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Billly Gates]

This all has to do with supply and demand economics and not importance. Would would happen if all the computers went down at any modern company? You would not stay in business for long. Also business processes engineering is big now and I.T. is part of the solution and not a cost center.

If someone in India can do your job for $11/hr then why should you earn respect? Managers and accountants are going to be axed next as they are seen as deadweight when someone from a 3rd world country can do it for alot cheaper. Why not move the whole company to China?

If free trade did not exist you would see programmers still making 70k a year and being treated better.

In 10 years from now the people who are out partying and leaving work early will be working for half price until 7 or 8 at night as well as competition increases. Sales is the only job left here but no one will be buying things as our economy deflates.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

That's the thing--- managers maybe-- executive branch- no.

Yet, there are executives overseas leading huge companies that make 500 to 600k a year.

Outsourcing our executive branch would provide us huge savings and make for much better contact with upcoming economies.

But you sea, the executives decide whose job goes and whose stays. just like they decide that 110 million dollars is fair compensation even after the guy drives the company into the ground.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Billly Gates]

You can't justify ROI with intangible assets. Thats accounting 101. For the non business majors reading this it means if something is not physically there with a recept and a precise unit output it therefore can't have a cost/benefit anaylsis.

Marketing people use intangible assets like brand image and advertising and accountants are cool with it and understand but no not I.T. its a cost!

Your accountants need to know this and use cause and effect relationships in determining the cost of failure or a benefit and not look at outputed units of revenue. Its just not going to happen and end up costing more.

I agree with what you are saying with salary. I get upset reading about talent bonuses for the wonderful jobs of BofA and AIG executives and just because someone thinks they have a nice office that they are now important. If I make a company lose only a few thousand dollars my butt is out the door. If its a few billion they get a bonus because they ahve a nice office and their employers want to kiss up so they can become like them some day. Founders need these but most good CEO's make less money than bad ones. I think slashdot ran a story on this.

It just comes to show that you need to hire passionate people about who they work for and what they do and not their egos or wallets. Its pretty obvious who the latter is loyal to at the end of the day.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Billly Gates]

You can thank Clinton and Bush for making it so easy and profitable to outsource American labor. When consumer spending owns 70% of the economy because there is no manufacturing or business spending left in the U.S. it is a huge problem.

In past recessions business spending brings the economy up and then consumers follow. Now it does not make a difference as invested money just goes to China and India and not back to us. Consumers are working for less and working more hours cut back on spending until things improve.

We did not allow this. THe corrupt lobbiests and politicians did. We need to fight back and form a third party or get involved with other workers like auto and factory workers who can't compete and end free trade. Only then will we get our salaries and our jobs back. Yes in a recession like this one I am willing to cut throat and kiss b*tt not to go homeless and its hopeless trying to have us all agree to stand up when so much labor is available.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[turing_m]

Those companies are almost certainly giving up ground to more efficient companies. I used to have much more confidence in the efficiency of the free market until I worked for actual, real-life companies. Then I saw that Dilbert wasn't the "jaded employee's view" of companies, it was the reality in a lot of places.

But the average person doesn't see the impact of efficiency on the company - a company can take a long while to go from slower growth to stagnancy to decline to eventual destruction. It's a lot like watching the Titanic in terms of the length of time it takes from cause to effect.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[SirYakksALot]

How did it come to this? Free markets. If you're willing to take crap, it's only a matter of time until someone makes you take crap.

I got into computers in 1993, back when it was the wild west. Then PHBs, lawyers and politicians started stepping in it, and a plague of cubicles swept the landscape. If you don't like the new rules, bail out.

I'm in law school now :)

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

Based on what I've seen, it's better to be a tradesman or an accountant than it is to be a programmer these days. The job gets no respect, abusive hours, requires constant retraining (imagine if "Accounting Rules 1995, 1998, 2000" was the norm- accounting rules became obsolete every 3 years and you had to retrain or lose your job-- or if the electrical code changed completely every 3 years. It's insane. We have 5 year old programs that have been out of support for 3 years. Anyone who works on them is signing a death warrant on his or her career).

I started computers in 1981. My mother in law had programmed professionally in the 1960's.

I'm in management now. IT no longer gives you a career- every few years it's a new lottery.

I'm saving my ass off and if things turn badly, I'll probably go for accounting. Lawyers are starting to have problems in New York. I think we may *finally* have too many of them.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

...those highly paid folks require high levels of experience, intelligence and competence (and connections)

... and hookers and blow.

Being useful to others will do that.. It will get you hookers and blow.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

This all sounds like a troll but it's more bitterness seeing complete idiots making 6 and 7 figure salaries while the "intelligent" folks are working as slaves.

How did it come to this?

I don't know, mate, but I do know the feeling.

I hit the low point some 4 years ago. , when it suddenly dawned on me that I tended to wake up in the morning thinking how much easier it would be just to give up; take an overdose of something pleasant and say goodbye. Except that you can't, really, when you have children adn a wife that love you - sometimes hope really is the worst thing.

Instead I started thinking about what it was that I hated about my job and my life, and what role I played in maintaining the status quo. Why didn't I have any friends at work? Well, to be honest, I was a grumpy git that never tried to fit in - I had all the right reasons, like I can't stand idiotic smalltalk about nothing, but the truth is that I was simply intolerant and fairly obnoxious. And why didn't I get any of the interesting projects with career potential? It's easy to see now, of course, that nobody wants to work with a contrary idiot, who seems to begrudge the very existence of his colleagues, but back then I didn't have the courage to admit it.

I didn't turn all that around in an instant, but I found that I could start out small, by standing up for myself on a few points. The thing is - I realised that a lot of the reason why I was that way was that I didn't have confidence in my own value. And how can others respect you if you don't respect yourself? Standing up for myself in small ways built up my self-confidence, which made me work to a better standard and it also helped others believe in me. I found the energy to be a little bit of an "idiot" like the rest and be more tolerant; now I am The Almighty UNIX Manager - in a small way - and the bosses actually talk to me with respect. It's not all wonderful, far from it, but I think I can see the light at the other end of the tunnel sometimes.

Of course this is just my story, but I think the morale is that it doesn't all have to be bad; if you find you are knee-deep in shit, bag it and sell manure.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

*Amen* I just accidentally got a marketing job. I market a new software, and its great because they needed my IT backround for it.But no more ^$$H0L3Z not appreciating me until something breaks, under paying and over working me. F IT. I will now use my knowledge and power for evil!

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

How did it come to this?

What do you mean, come to? Didn't high school teach you that jocks run the world?

Working hard and being useful just means someone else is working less hard, being less useful, and making more money. That's life.

I blame my parents for raising me with morals.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet, there are executives overseas leading huge companies that make 500 to 600k a year

If that is the way you write, it's no wonder you flunked out of IT.

But you sea, ...

ARF?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why either you or the parent think intelligence is so important and should be rewarded. Look around you, no one cares.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I realised a long time ago in IT that I could take the crap and work with people who just wanted to work me like a dog, or stand up for myself, be confident in interviews and tell them exactly what I expected out of the job as well. I was lucky in that I had some savings and could 'afford' to be a bit picky, and I also decided that if this approach didn't work I would look at changing careers.

It paid off, and now I'm working for a startup who actually just let me get on with my job, trust my opinions and seem genuinely grateful for the work I do for them. Too many of the people I know who still work for Telecomms and Finacial Businesses (the worst offenders in my experience) are petrified of ever making a stand, they are bullied into believing that outside their cubicles nobody wants them.

Maybe I got lucky, but been honest with my employers and telling them I won't take crap, and that I expect to do the job they inteviewed me for worked.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[hairyfish]

"There is no justification for a 7 or 8 figure salary for someone who didn't found the company." Of course there is. There are plenty of examples of gun CEOs turning $100M companies into $1B companies. If their leadership results in hundreds of millions in extra profit, they deserve a good slice of the pie. Where it goes wrong is how CEOs all now seem to command 8 figure salaries and bonuses regardless of performance. A lot of these monkeys sink the company, yet still walk away with 8 figures.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[mrjb]

If someone in India can do your job for $11/hr then why should you earn respect?

Quality and productivity. Good programmers are rare. Programming work is outsourced to India because it's perceived as being cheaper, not because it's perceived as being better, so you'll have to show the edge in the quality of your work. Which doesn't mean that there aren't any good programmers in India; it just means you'll have to be lucky to run into them (anywhere in the world, by the way).

If you can show you can be 10 times as productive as another programmer *in the long run* by offering better quality, you'll earn that respect.

Boring as it sounds: Writing documentation helps. Writing unit tests helps. Following best practices helps. If those guys in India (or anywhere else) do that and you don't, they deserve both the respect and the pay, not you. If you want respect, be better.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[hairyfish]

IT does generate a positive balance sheet of you manage it properly. You provide a service, and you charge the business for that service. The problem here is that most IT managers/CIOs are either Techies who don't understand politics, or political animals who don't understand tech. These guys invariably end up getting a raw deal from the business because they don't have the skills they need to do the job properly. When a Sales Manager asks for a new laptop, we buy a $1500 laptop for $1200 (through bulk purchasing/negotiatiing), then recharge the sales dept $1500 for it. We buy, build and support the user for a price the user couldn't better themselves. They win, we win. Apply similar margins to everything to do and suddenly your dept budget is fully funded. For some reason, IT developed this idea that the rules of the universe don't apply to them. That may have true for a brief decade or two in the 80's and 90's, but since the dotcom bust, we are back in the game. Play the game or fail.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Aladrin]

I agree with Rand's philosophy to a point, but it has -nothing- to do with why IT is like it is.

IT is staffed mainly by people who love doing the job. That means that when it comes to taking a little crap to keep your job, you take it because you love the actual job. More and more get piled on until it's the standard way to do things in the industry.

On the other hand, Atlas Shrugged was all about getting the respect and recompensation that you deserve for your hard work. It's pretty exactly the opposite of what is happening in the IT industry. If we were using that book as a guide, we'd all be quitting and finding a job elsewhere... You know, kind of like TFS is asking about.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[hemorex]

Fight the system. Play World of Warcraft instead of working.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[vlm]

imagine if "Accounting Rules 1995, 1998, 2000" was the norm- accounting rules became obsolete every 3 years and you had to retrain or lose your job

I am not sure if you were going for a "funny" mod, but tax accounting is, if anything, worse than your description of IT, because unlike IT, you can't use anything but memorization, certainly no logic is used, and it literally does change, a little bit, every year, and there are about a zillion independent taxing authorities in the USA (city, county, state, federal), but only one microsoft.

On the other hand, my great grandfather was 100% employed thru Great Depression One doing that. Takes just as long and costs just as much to file taxes on 100% of revenue as it does on 10% of revenue, at least to a first order of magnitude. I wonder if I'll be employed 100% of the time during Great Depression Two...

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Just to prove your blanket-stereotype wrong, I am an anarchist who has worked in IT for over 12 years (primarily database programming/administration) and have never even asked for a raise. I am probably the lowest-paid office personnel in this company, even lower than some production workers. I know a lot of people who make more than me -- even people who don't particularly hold a specialized skill -- but I have never even once questioned it, even to myself. It's none of my business. I'm not jealous, and I'm not selfish.

But here's the catch. I don't believe in government, just as an athiest doesn't believe in god. I believe that centralized power is the largest and most successful scam in human history, as well as evidence that despite our technological accomplishments, human beings are still quite primitive in certain aspects. Particularly the instinct to blindly follow rather than think; to choose sides and fight against others, even when there is no need.

Yet I'm not at all the selfish, money-hungry, materialistic chump you make me out to be. In fact, most of the selfish materialistic types I come across in life are very pro-government, not at all the libertarian/anarchist types. They are easy to spot; you will find them making demands on others, rather than on themselves.

FYI, the moral of Atlas Shrugged is that coercion is wrong, not that dog-eat-dog capitalism is right.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[mauddib~]

Then you didn't really understand the morals, or maybe only part of the morals were given to you.

An important moral is to not have greed, you just showed greed.

Yesterday I saw a movie about farming in the 1920's in the Netherlands. People farmed because it was a necessity. Nobody had greed because greed meant others would not work for you the next year. I'm not a jock, but I have a beautiful life with ups and downs, a beautiful girlfriend and the opportunity to learn every day.

If money is not the thing you can get, then let it be knowledge, the passion to perceive something new every day. Why this focus on the negative?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Diagoras]

This all sounds like a troll but it's more bitterness seeing complete idiots making 6 and 7 figure salaries while the "intelligent" folks are working as slaves. How did it come to this?

Yeah, I'm gonna take a leap here and not blame it on capitalism, or on the fact that all executives are immoral. The issue is that you're laboring under the deluded belief that intelligence, and a very narrowly defined type, is what gets you ahead in business. It isn't. Being charismatic, a generalist rather than a specialist, and generally likable is what gets you ahead. You can have an IQ of 200 and still work as a janitor if you're a complete asshole.

In my experience, while you do get the occasional raging sociopath amongst the "complete idiots," for the most part they are people who are good at getting people to like them.
And humans have always preferred charisma to intelligence, with good reason.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[maitas]

Wow...

  Unformtunatelly the "I hit the low point some 4 years ago. , when it suddenly dawned on me that I tended to wake up in the morning thinking how much easier it would be just to give up; take an overdose of something pleasant and say goodbye. Except that you can't, really, when you have children adn a wife that love you - sometimes hope really is the worst thing." part is too familiar to me and to many other co-workers here.

  I just quit psichiatric treatment and although it was great, I'm really scared that many others falls in the same depresion I was in... and reading this makes me feel it is going to be even more pervasive.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Ayn Rand and the army of philosophical libertarians in the U.S. whose intellect (required to understand the philosophy and economics behind it) naturally puts them in positions of influence and power via which these ideas are implemented (example: Alan Greenspan, a deep fan of Rand), along with the army of free-market economists who use their own work as faux-empirical justification for libertarian economic policies, NEVER talk about the humanitarian downsides of a hyper-competitive feedback loop/death-spiral... except to mock them in "Atlas Shrugged" (America's second most-influential book after the Bible, according to one survey conducted in the early 1990s).

If that's what you took away from Atlas Shrugged, then you should consider re-reading it. AS was not about sacrificing one's personal well-being or working in poverty just to be working. AS was about not working under untenable conditions. That you'd be happier as a bean farmer for a fair wage than as a steel CEO with your margin squeezed to zero. It's about people living up to their expectations, and the consequence of humanitarian efforts continually lowering those expectations.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[mrscorpio]

Your example is very poor. Greenspan may have started out an Austrian Economics Rand fan, but his policies were those of a run-of-the-mill Keynesian Krugman fan.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[smchris]

I think it helps for me to be older to agree with you. A lot of IT graduated from the Reagan era propaganda schools in which libertarian capitalism does everything right and nothing wrong. "I'm working for the union" is something I expect to hear sung in IT immediately before complete social collapse.

Does that make IT _special_? On the contrary, it makes IT as brainwashed as pink collar workers. The demographic shift from rural independent farmers and small town union workers to non-union office jobs is one of the defining broad strokes of change in the second half of the 20th century. Yes, even before NAFTA. Whether you're talking Lagos, Nigeria, or Detroit and Silicon Valley. I doubt if too many IT people see it that way because they are techies, but I was one of those humanities and social sciences liberal arts grads who could just "fall into {-i 'it'}" in the 80s when anyone who had a knack for a dual-floppy PC was valuable.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

You have a problem with authority, Mr. Andersen. You believe you are special, that somehow the rules do not apply to you. Obviously, you are mistaken.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[CaptSlaq]

If "a race-to-the-bottom, out-compete-each-other-for-the-good-of-mankind philosophy" is all you got from Rand, you missed the point.

"I swear, by my life and love of it, I will never live for the sake of another person, nor ask another person to live for the sake of me."

I'm not seeing what you say in that sentence, which was the money quote for the ENTIRE BOOK of Atlas Shrugged. If you feel that you're "living for the sake of another", you need to be job shopping *now*, because one of two things is happening:

1. You are undervalued where you are, and need to go to somewhere else that will value your skills properly.

2. You *think* you are undervalued, and need a dose of reality to let you know where you really are on the chain.

Either one of these will be fixed by doing some interviews and getting some feedback outside of your existing "pond".

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Kleiba]

> This all sounds like a troll but it's more bitterness seeing complete idiots making 6 and 7 figure salaries while the
> "intelligent" folks are working as slaves.
>
> How did it come to this?

Perhaps the idiots' definition of "intelligent" is different from yours.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

There are plenty of examples of gun CEOs turning $100M companies into $1B companies. If their leadership results in hundreds of millions in extra profit, they deserve a good slice of the pie.

I guarantee you that any CEO who turned a company around like that didn't give himself a slice anywhere near the size of the chunks gouged by some executives. The mentality and ethics of the efficient CEO are entirely at odds with the sponger CEO. One is good for the company, the other is not.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I left IT (Mainframe development when I left) for Accounting. I had a B.S. in Computer Science and 10+ years of experience in the field. My minor was in Russian Literature. I had exactly 0 experience with accounting. However I had worked as a DBA for back-end mainframe work for a few years, and I knew all the ins and outs of the software. That was how I got the job, I knew how to do everything in the software.

Now I have worked in accounting for 3 years. The initial pay cut was awful (I took a 55% pay-cut), but I was able to cut back on expenses (less eating out, since I had normal working hours and no on-call), and I was willing to work all of the "overtime" in the department. I use the term loosely, because they wanted people to come in for 5-10 hours over the weekend. Coming from a background of working 60+ hours weeks, this was a welcome change, and they paid me for the time. I also spend less money on "fun" things (My computer is a P4 3.0 GHz with a 6800GT, it works for my games). My wife also works.

I know how to use Macros in Excel and write good scripts. That made me the most productive person they had in the department. I moved up the ladder very quickly. Now I manage a few people, I make a decent amount of money (not as much as I made in IT, but enough for my lifestyle), I have time to spend with my kids, I have a weekend, and a great quality of life. I still work about 50 hours a week, which other people see as a "hard worker" and I get respect.

As for working with people, accounting is a department most people tend to avoid. Anyone can come in after payday if there is a problem with their paycheck. My underlings I leave to do their work (Data entry people, as long as the data is entered, they can screw around a little as long as it's not obvious). The only people that bother me are the higher-ups when they want reports, most of the time it's through e-mail. I actually deal with people less now that I'm in accounting (I dealt with more Indian programmers, multi-boss situations and Brazillion operators in IT).

Guess what I got out of working in IT? One time I received an unframed certificate of thanks for coming in over Christmas to help with an emergency data center IPL (that went wrong). That wasn't the only time I came in over a holiday weekend, but I did receive something that time.

The point is, if you know that back-end of Oracle or SAP, you should be able to get into the field (especially if you have a B.S. degree, companies like those).

Now, I'm going to run some scripts to get the reports, format them with some macros then sit back and play nethack for half the day, and get paid for it while the bosses think I'm hard at work. Your mileage may vary.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[scamper_22]

Let me add a caveat here for you.

The problem is we live a two tier society. Yes, we in IT/engineers live and die in some sort of cut throat free market world. The problem is the rest of society does not. Doctors and lawyers restrict their numbers. Public sector unions get their money and benefits at tax payers expense without any competition.

So I always ask my fellow engineers why they bother being so free-market when the rest of the world is not. No point being moral about it. This is your life.

Let us imagine a truly free market, small government world. Yes, IT might still be as brutal, but truth be told, you would work in it for 5-10 years and then quit after you've made your money. This is how parts of finance and corporate law work. They are high pay, but high burnout.
You'd have enough because of low taxes and the money would hold value due to a stable dollar and low property taxes... So the ideology is sound.

However, I would never subject myself to that philosophy, while the rest of society coasts off tax money, monopolies, exclusionary professions. I will always say that a libertarian society is a the best society for all, especially for the poor. However, in North America, the way it is now, I would absolutely not be against government money to the IT sector, or professional organization/unions in the field. As I said, we do not live in a free-market society. No one else is playing by those rules. Why should we?

On this point, I never understand the responses from engineers/IT sector.
Oh no, it hurts efficiency.
Oh no, it hurts innovation. ... of course it does. It also gives a nice stable paycheck and plays by the rules the rest of society lives by. But again, if the rest of society plays by the better libertarian rules, I'll gladly play by those rules.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[intheshelter]

Sorry, I agree with tthe poster. Most management is incompetent. IT are treated like dirt. Jobs are being given to Indian contractors instead of local IT resources.

If you don't have that experience then I'm happy for you, but I would say you are the exception and not the rule. I don't think he/she has an "attitude" so much as disgust at what is being observed every day at work.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe your parents grew up in Soviet Russia, because I can't think of any other explanation for your complete failure to understand how a market economy works. "complete idiots making 6 and 7 figure salaries". That is hilarious. Looks like you're the idiot here, for not realizing that they are the ones who are smarter at putting in the hours. Wake-up call: they didn't get their positions because their parent is a Count, Baron, or Duke, something closed off to you. The only person you have to blame for being where you are and doing what you do, and not being where they are, and doing what they do, is you.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

*facepalm*
Please, please leave the real engineers out of your ideas here. Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers all take exams before they can add the letters behind their names.

Anonymous Coward, P.E.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[that IT girl]

I have no idea how it got to this point, but I'm relatively young and just learning the hard way that doing the job I love means being treated this way. Why is it that those with the fewest scruples, the sleazy underhanded salesman, the executive who cheats and lies and tries to sleep with every female in the building, the ones who are selfish and the least committed to the company--why are these the ones who are rewarded and get to live the high life? Why are those of us who are decent, honest, and hardworking always holding the short end of the stick?

And people wonder why society has gotten to the point it has today. People have learned that crime does, in fact, pay... and being an upstanding citizen does not.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[apoc.famine]

I bailed on IT after only 3 years. I'm pretty good at it, but the corporate atmosphere is horrific. It's taken awhile, but I've stumbled my way back into graduate school doing climate modeling. I get to program again, give input on terabyte raid arrays, learn how to get 256 processors clustered to do parallel processing, etc. It's fun IT. I work on a high-end mac, and ssh into borderline supercomputers to get work done. Compared to helpdesk and the corporate machine, it's heaven.
 
The pay is poor, graduate pay at the moment. But there are a couple dozen people in my building with PhDs who are doing this for a living. There are another six or so who are staff, with no PhD. Both are doing IT work 9-4, with an hour for lunch sort of IT work. Building rack servers, programming weather models, all sorts of intellectual, low-stress, rewarding work.
 
If you're corporate IT job is making you hate life, dump the corporate part, not the IT part.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[that IT girl]

Can you share a little more about how you got to the point where you could "be a little bit of an idiot like the rest" and not go batshit insane from the "small talk about nothing"? I find myself in this situation at work too--and in general in fact, until I joined Mensa (finally, intellectually stimulating conversation!). But this would be a handy thing to be able to tolerate in the workplace.

Also, I like the quote you ended with. Do you mind if I use that?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, Stunning question,

I’ve become so disillusioned with this shit, what has happened,

The industry is now filled with f-ing fan boy’s that aren’t worth shit using wizards ad data adapters to write apps.
To me it feels twice as hard to build something I built five years ago.

And management just has this dull expectation that anything is doable in a nano second.

Sure it is, keep doing that for two years and you’re in a irrecoverable architecture mess.

Oh and management all of a fucking sudden decided that what we dev’s do is a commodity.

There in lies the core of the problem and it’s the fucking vendors that gave them this idea.

SSAS SSIS is driving me nuts.

I’m seriously thinking about fucking off and going to farm pigs or something.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I can identify with your former 'morning affirmation' and how easy it would be if it wasn't for that pesky family :).

I've been in IT for 20 years(!) now and have been thinking of getting out it for the last 10. I'm finally taking steps to do so. My first step: figuring out if it's the field of IT that I hate or the actual company I work for. I left my former employer of 10 years to go to a company that has a much better track record in the employee satisfaction department. After 6 months here, I've decided that it's the IT field I'm sick of - the employer is great, but I still can't stand what I do.

It would be great if I could take some time off to 'find myself' but the steady paycheque I need to keep food in the fridge for the family kinda puts a damper on that idea.

I'm now looking into the field of NDT/NDE. It only requires a month of training to start as a 'trainee' and after working in the field for about 2 years, I can be making more than I am now. Which is pretty sad when you think about it: NDT personnel with 2 years experience makes more than 20 years IT experience.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

...sounds like the "80/20 principle" at work.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Daymm!
I resemble that remark. Thanks for giving me something to think about, as thats just where I'm at pretty much. Right at the bottom of that Dionsyios valley.

I like the quote at the end too!

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[mikael_j]

I think what was implied wasn't just the tax laws and such, in IT "everything" changes. A better description would probably be to imagine working as an accountant if the only thing related to the job that wasn't changing seemingly at random was the tax laws (which would still change but the changes would at least make some sense).

/Mikael

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I say this as a slowly-recovering right-libertarian (and developer) myself, turned moderate left-libertarian.

I wonder how many of us there are? I saw the light back around '02.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

"I could take the crap and work with people who just wanted to work me like a dog, or stand up for myself"

Yeah, well the last time I stood up for myself, I got fired... "for cause" so I had to fight to get unemployment. Previously attempts just got me accused of being a troublemaker. I don't make that mistake anymore. Now I just do as I'm told, speak when spoken to, and leave the job behind me when I go home.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD PARENT UP!

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

You have a problem with authority, Mr. Andersen. You believe you are special, that somehow the rules do not apply to you. Obviously, you are mistaken.

No, I don't have problems with authority, but I do believe that respect and trust are earned - by being respectable and trustworthy. And, yes, I know I am special, this is not something I believe. I am different from most, and believe me, it is not something I generally cherish; it is a very mixed blessing.

I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that I think rules don't apply to me; if that was how I saw things, I wouldn't have cared enough to get depressed in the first place.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

Can you share a little more about how you got to the point where you could "be a little bit of an idiot like the rest" and not go batshit insane from the "small talk about nothing"?

I think this is probably different from person to person - in my case, I have always felt intensely (and unpleasantly) self-aware in social situations, and I was afraid of getting into a situation where I would embarass myself and look ridiculous. I think what changed it was mainly two things: I have observed many times that other people don't seem to mind looking a bit silly; they would use it to comical effect, which is something I can sympathise with. And I took a course in Chinese, where I was guaranteed to have to get into situations where I would try and fail in a small, controllable way, namely in things like speaking Chinese in front of the class; I found that this didn't actually feel as bad as I had feared.

So you could say that I sort of took a few, very small and fearful steps and grew bolder from there. A lot of social interaction is not about being intelligent and looking impressive, but goes on under the radar, while people are talking nonsense about something. Take a conversation about, say, football - something that is almost void of meaning to me. On the surface people may be talking about their team and whatever, but what they are really communicating on a deeper level is things like "You and I are on the same side, we are friends" etc. - and that is actually a very important thing for one's well-being.

I still can't take part in much small-talk, but what I do instead seems to work in a way: I admit to my ignorance about sports and try to ask questions, since most people love to explain. It is actually nice to listen to.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Interoperable]

Rand's philosophy was never to suggest that you would make things better for yourself by offering services at increasingly slimmer profit margins. It's about striving to be fucking good at what you do and demanding a premium price for your services. She (and I) would argue that you advance by making yourself indispensable to the companies you work for through providing clearly superior service.

If you're constantly under the thumb of management then you're part of the unimpressive masses in Rand's picture; doomed to either ride the coat-tails of the industrialists or to leech their profit, unearned, by extortion. Your only hope is to offer invaluable intellectual product and demand every penny of it's worth. Choosing to collectively work less hard while demanding more money results in a game at an unstable equilibrium that is doomed to fall back into competition unless it's backed by government supported extortion.

Be the indispensable, top sysadmin, the linux guru that runs the entire company's infrastructure, be the guy wrote the software that runs everything. If you're not, Rand's philosophy really isn't designed to make you happy.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

Also, I like the quote you ended with. Do you mind if I use that?

Sorry, I forgot to answer this one - of course you can :-) I'm glad you like it.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[vertinox]

IT is staffed mainly by people who love doing the job.

I disagree.

IT is staffed mainly by people who love the technology but hate the job politics that go with it.

Its a love hate thing.

Personally, I'm getting laid off at the end of the year and my job is being outsourced to Mexico.

I'm thinking about going back to school to become an accountant. Tired of this mess.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[EvilBudMan]

I understand your thinking. I did something similar around the same time. I guess it's age kicking in, but right now I'm real grumpy about the overall state of the world economy now that I see many that know how to fix things but no one doing it. This ain't just in IT, it's everywhere now.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

It would be great if I could take some time off to 'find myself' but the steady paycheque I need to keep food in the fridge for the family kinda puts a damper on that idea.

Think of it as a long-term project. There are many hobbies that could have the potential to become a new career if one is committed. For me it is growing orchids - it isn't too challenging and very interesting (well, to me at least). Superficially it could look as if a few, big producers have cornered the market and are the only ones that sell anything; but this is because you think of it in terms of producing a million plants at a time and selling through a supermarket chain. There are other ways and other markets. So, perhaps this is something I will do one day; and in the meantime I simply enjoy it.

Wouldn't it be nice one day, when the kids are grown, to sell the house and move far away from it all, to live a simple, undemanding life? There are many lovely places in the world: Outer Hebrides, Yunnan, The Alps, and possibly a few more :-)

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[corbettw]

An intelligent accountant understands that IT processes can reduce the costs of doing business. Reducing those costs has a direct effect on the balance sheet and increases the equity of the owners (since liabilities go down but assets remain static, equity must increase to balance the accounting equation). So now IT is not a cost center, it's a return on investment to the owners. Much like the accountants themselves.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

I wish I could say a magical word that would somehow make everything better, I really do. Still, I have always found that reality is your friend; and there is some truth in the saying, that when you are at low as you can come, every step will bring you upwards. The thing to remember is that you have to actually take a step - any step, really.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[hesaigo999ca]

I so agree with your point of view, however, in this baneful existence, we need both sides.
We need management to be further dependent on IT staff as they are technology savvy and are top notch
when it comes to helping them with their palmpilot etc...
You will always see the low end get taken by those in the higher levels, as we are replaceable in their eyes.
Problem is, they are right....as much as we think those idiots are worthless, to get the client to be relaxed enough to hand over a multi-million dollar account over to you (your company) and do all its advertising bla,bla,bla...
takes a lot of charisma, and tact, get them to willingly bend over to get a carrot their so you can overcharge them for something they don't really need, takes a lot of talent as well....lol

We would be better off if some of our nerds were to grow up, and make the change themselves to become those
upper management types. I would so love to see some of my colleagues become my boss as they have amazing kung fu prowess programming, and yet would be able to understand all the reasons I explain to them why something is not working or needs fixing. The router went down again, because it sucks, we need a new one , equipped to handle higher bandwidth....sure buy one now so we stop having these crashes...instead of company budget does not allow it, fix it and then come see me for your next project, would be a thing of the past.

The problem is none of our geeks are able to transition nicely from on to the other. Too many are stuck behind a screen 24/7 to be able to socially interact with the clients on a comfortable level. I am looking to maybe climb this ladder myself in the future, but know it will be a hard road to travel....lots of changes in mentality to see the bigger picture need to happen.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[waspleg]

absolutely true. as is the comment a few paragraphs up from someone else abotu being treated like janitors. there are many many overpaid manager types who contribute nothing, where i work employee to manager ratio is nearly 1:1 secretaries make almost as much as i do but i'm responsible for 600+ users and at least as many computers with 0 respect for me and even less for my time.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[pwfffff]

I second this... It's not even that the small talk about nothing offends me; it's that the small talk is either about my coworker's wives, children, lawn or fantasy football team. That's hard to relate to for a single guy living in an apartment and playing video games all day.

I can either leave the conversation, make up a story about how I saw some kids on a lawn playing football once, or speak honestly: "Oh, you have two kids? They keep you up all the time? Well that was a dumb choice now then, wasn't it?"

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir are exactly the reason why I chose a non-IT related career path while starting college this year.

I'm pretty good with computers and absolutely love 'em, but the pointy haired boss makes more money than Dilbert does. That's why instead of being a CS major like every other clown here, I'm going for Business Administration. Requires less thought, effort, and math but makes more money!

Besides, who wants to ruin a fun side hobby of exploit development by turning it into a job? Sounds miserable.
Get EIP or die trying on my OWN dime. In the meantime, make bank doing management!

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is not the ideas prescribed in Atlas Shrugged. The problem is that the looters have appropriated some of the language to morally justify their thievery. Pretty predictable actually...The drift from using your mind to create or execute a quality product earning wealth to figuring out how you can use any given situation to acquire wealth with the least amount of effort is at the root of our problem

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[pwfffff]

And I guess your parents grew up in Madethefuckupistan where every CEO started out as an orphan in a third world country and made their first billion in profits without any other employees.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[zippyspringboard]

If money is a CEO's chief or only motivating factor, chances are they are not the ones you want for the job anyways. I'm pretty sure an offer of 6 figures along with all the power, responsibility and challenge would have tons of candidates interested in the position. I find it odd that the often the same people who would find offense in idea that the workers "deserve a good slice of the pie" cling to the idea that good leadership deserves rewarding with a "good slice of the pie." As far as I'm concerned the CEO's were simply doing their job. The fact that they managed to grow a company, should look great on their resume. Shouldn't that be compensation enough? The main reason for the outrageous bonuses and salaries is that a corrupt process cannot survive on honest wages.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

At my friend's company, the IT folks get up at 6am, get left at work while everyone goes out drinking for extended lunches (because they are "sales and executives")-- entire company is smaller than my last team. Executives my ass.

Somehow, we let them do this to us. When I was getting into the field, we were priest kings in air-conditioned rooms with complete power. But with each passing year, we underbid each other and passed control over to people who worked us to death.

I worked at a place where the V.P. of marketing used to add up the "little boxes" in Excel on his calculator and fill in the results manually in the "lower little box". I asked him if he know that Excel could do the adding for him and he was surprised when I showed him.

Six figures dude. What a moron.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[AmericanGladiator]

A fellow had just been hired as the new CEO of a large tech corporation. The CEO who was stepping down met with him privately and presented him with three numbered envelopes. "Open one of these if you run up against a problem you don't think you can solve," he said.

Things went along pretty smoothly, but six months later, sales took a downturn and the CEO was really catching a lot of heat. About at his wit's end, he remembered the envelopes. He went to his drawer and took out the first envelope. The message read, "Blame your predecessor."

The new CEO called a press conference and tactfully laid the blame at the feet of the previous CEO. Satisfied with his comments, the press - and Wall Street - responded positively, sales began to pick up and the problem was soon behind him.

About a year later, the company was again experiencing a slight dip in sales, combined with serious product problems. Having learned from his previous experience, the CEO quickly opened the second envelope. The message read, "Reorganize."

This he did, and the company quickly rebounded.

After several consecutive profitable quarters, the company once again fell on difficult times. The CEO went to his office, closed the door and opened the third envelope. The message said, "Prepare three envelopes."

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say Atlas Shrugged was all about getting the respect and recompensation that you deserve...it is more about doing what you want on your terms. Most of the IT guys who really really love the field have low standards for their terms. "Let me screw with computer crap, pay me some money" is about the extent of it. As long as screwing with computer crap is allowed to continue and the paycheck keeps coming, they don't feel a need to complain.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[starfishsystems]

Well said.

Nobody in their right mind actively goes out to seek the hardships that deliver these fundamental insights. It would be much easier to just float along in life, working toward our endless list of what we consider to be self-evident goals.

Nobody wants an existential crisis to get in the way of all that. But if it does, something extraordinary can happen. You're forced to reevaluate everything you stand for. If you have the moral courage to see that as a necessary exercise and give it your best effort, some amazing things can happen. Humility is the most essential discovery of them all. It's something like being reborn. Your ego has to let go of its need to preserve the status quo.

You just can't go out and buy that sort of wisdom. Almost by definition, you have to be dragged kicking and screaming toward it. But such freedom afterward!

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

If "a race-to-the-bottom, out-compete-each-other-for-the-good-of-mankind philosophy" is all you got from Rand, you missed the point.

You miss the point yourself. The point is that by out-competing-each-other-for-the-good-of-mankind, you increase tremendously the productivity - and then the prices fall. Then new supply-demand equilibriums are reached of course, and thus the profits could be maintained (or increase) for a while. But after, market saturation, the profits will fall.

This is what is happening in IT. It's clear for hardware: if the cost of one computer goes down to 10 cents, you will never be able to become a billionaire by selling computers anymore. Currently, we are mid-point from the multi-million price of the first computers to the 10 cents.

The general point is that working extremely hard, you become so productive, that you end up earning less because you sature demand.

The point is that Rand missed this completely. She may have dozen of other points, valid or not, enlightened or not. But she missed the upcoming tragedy of the manufacturing industries of the 20th century.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[quacking duck]

There are plenty of examples of gun CEOs turning $100M companies into $1B companies. If their leadership results in hundreds of millions in extra profit, they deserve a good slice of the pie.

I guarantee you that any CEO who turned a company around like that didn't give himself a slice anywhere near the size of the chunks gouged by some executives. The mentality and ethics of the efficient CEO are entirely at odds with the sponger CEO. One is good for the company, the other is not.

Case in point: Steve Jobs has an official salary of $1 a year. AFAIK he doesn't accept bonus pay, either. The rest of his compensation (private jet, stock options, etc) is directly tied to the company and its fortunes.

Executives raking in huge amounts of actual pay and bonuses are in it for the short haul, IMHO. Without a majority of their compensation tied to the company's stocks, they don't really care about the company's long-term performance.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[CaptSlaq]

Information age, meet Industrial age.

I don't know about you, but I generally regard progress as a GOOD thing. Just because a portion of the workforce gets displaced by new advancements doesn't mean that we should stop progressing. It just means that the bar for being paid for what you do gets raised. You must adapt or get out.

When heavy machinery displaced workers in almost every manufacturing setup, there were a bunch of people were displaced too. They complained about it as well. Those people eventually cross-trained to something else, or lived on retirement/dole, depending on how old they were.

To say that Rand missed this would be at best putting words in her mouth. It's an assumption that I find must at least be treated as such. Sadly, we can't ask her about it.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[drsmithy]

Having known 6, 7 and 8 figure salary folks I can assure you that you can't do their jobs.

Well, to be fair, neither can most of them...

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[BitZtream]

Wow, why don't you whine some more about your office job.

Go do roofing, work in oil fields or at a coal power plant. Go repair the trains that bring coal to them.

Go get a real job that actually sucks, then come back and whine about your IT job.

Jesue Christ you are one spoiled little bitch.

This may come as a shock, but the intelligent people aren't working as slaves. You may think because you can updates some drivers or figure out Outlook that you are intelligent, but you aren't.

Regardless of what you think, the guy making 7 figures and leaving earlier to have drinks is more intelligent than you, which is why your dumbass is still working there and he makes a million plus and leaves early for drinks.

It didn't 'come to this'. It was always this way. The only thing that happened is a few IT guys decided because they could do something with computers that other people couldn't, that they must be more intelligent. You just got into the field before it had enough people to support it, now that the field is balancing out, you're being put where you belong in it. You never belonged at the top or you'd still be there. Get over yourself.

Regardless of how you look at it, if you were as intelligent as you think you are, you wouldn't be someone elses bitch unless you liked it.

Some of us, the intelligent ones, still sit in air-conditioned rooms, behind a desk, with complete power.

You are right, you aren't trolling, you're whining about how you are entitled to something you don't deserve. Gather up your little friends and go throw yourself a pity party, and the rest of us who actually know what we're doing and can actually command good pay and benefits will continue to do so, and have our drinks with the execs.

Note: I started out working at the local computer store/ISP who's sole job was to drive into the rural areas around the city I lived in fixing and educating those people who were ignorant about computers. I've worked my way up from the lowest of the low to comfy and cushie because I'm good at what I do and I do it. I don't sit around bitching about how someone else has it better than me, I just take their place. And thats EXACTLY what those guys who make 7 figures and go out for drinks did. Sorry, you really aren't all that you think you are.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Not only that, can you count the number of times companies have been 'turned around' by basically gutting them to lift the bottom line and the stock price for a short time?

Executives like that are good for one thing: burning the house down to stay warm for the night. They're everywhere, they're endemic in corporate culture right now, and they ruin everything they touch while simultaneously making themselves rich. Not only that, they're praised for it. If they can convince stock holders that basically robbing the company and the employees blind is a good thing for them (it will be if the stock price goes up) then they'll do it. To the victor go the spoils.

An executive that's out to get rich, who demands a six, seven, eight figure salary and all the bells and whistles, you look out for that guy. He'll send your company into a nosedive just so he can leap away with a golden parachute. If you're familiar with confidence games, you'll know that you have to be able to see through (and even outright ignore, even if it makes you look bad) the charisma of people trying to earn your trust and your cooperation to know if they're a shithead or not. And yes, a huge fraction of executives and managers are con-men, playing their confidence tricks on gullible stock holders and voiceless workers who depend on them for their daily bread.

It's sick.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

You're forgetting that we have never been in an actual free market economy here in the US, not at least for the past 60 years. Mo' government mo government mo government.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Introspection/reflection is a good thing that not too many of us do.

We all need to re-eval every year or so and see if we are who we want to be, etc.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't high school teach you that jocks run the world?

Isn't that the way it goes? One sibling gets the brains, the other gets the brawn.

Maybe this has some bearing on the whole "jocks run the world" idea...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/36056
If only the nerds could fraternize with the women's cross-country team... would we get over our fear a little quicker?

I blame my parent for locking me in my room all the time.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

There's one bit of this story that I don't understand: where did you find a company where bosses actually know good workers from bad workers? My experience in corporate America, for ten years now, is that those who deliver are the first ones to go. Wrote a product from scratch, that bagged a pile of money for the company? Here's a nice letter of appreciation, and by the way, you're fired. Landed a valuable patent for the company? Very nice, we'll put your name on the wall, and good luck in your next job.

I've watched this happen consistently, for over a decade. I've done little but stare at my screen thinking "I wish I were dead" for the last six months, and thereby survived two layoffs. All the people who were being productive were let go. I know from things like Dilbert that my experience is far from unusual. So... did you find the one company on Earth with managers that understand good work from bad work? Or did you merely become a good bureaucrat, willing to spend your days on petty politics and byzantine process?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[GalubJamun]

I think both you and the previous poster have great points. I went through this myself after being in the IT field for about 15 years. 2 things happened to change the situation, first I started my own company and at least I control what I do and what I get paid. The second is, and I hesitate to say this on Slashdot, I became a Christian and started to care about people a great deal more. Things have improved.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Alpha830RulZ]

One counter example will serve - Jack Welch. He grew GE enormously, and took a huge amount home. He arguably earned it by creating enormous shareholder wealth. He is possible the exception that validates the rule.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[that IT girl]

I think you and I would get along great. I find small talk maddeningly frustrating (though I do have a fantasy football team. Top of my league so far!)

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Alpha830RulZ]

May I suggest a couple of things? One, read this: on narcissism. I am not saying this to insult you or criticize you - I have this issue myself. But think for a moment about the inherent judgment you are making - that intelligence = worth, and lesser intelligence = lesser worth. How do you expect people to react to you if you project this value system? A conversation need not be stimulating to be pleasant. If you walk away from all conversations that aren't stimulating, the people you are walking away from may not enjoy the experience, which will lead to fewer and less fulfilling conversations in the future.

Second, read Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. This is a pretty good explication of the simple mechanics of how to be likeable. Each of these people you are bored with probably likes at least one thing that you like also (assuming that you like sex ). What kind of restaurants do they like, what hobbies do they have, what are their kids up to? This is the social lubrication of life. When I'm trying to get to know a co-worker, I'll ask them, "What do you like to do for fun?"

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Alpha830RulZ]

Why is it that those with the fewest scruples, the sleazy underhanded salesman, the executive who cheats and lies and tries to sleep with every female in the building, the ones who are selfish and the least committed to the company--why are these the ones who are rewarded and get to live the high life

Because sociopathy is a successful trait as far as obtaining the things you discuss. It doesn't mean they are any happier than you.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[4D6963]

That's utter bullshit. "Jocks" don't run the world, real jocks end up working at an auto plant and become alcoholics by the time they're 35. Hustlers run the world. If you want the world you can't be a sheep. You can't follow the other sheeps and wonder why you're not getting anywhere special.

Look at John D. Rockefeller, that guy was the perfect example of the successful aggressive hustler. From co-owning one refinery he pulled every possible trick to become more competitive than anyone else, eat the competition to get even bigger until he had a complete monopoly and became the richest son of a bitch in the world. No one told him what to do, no one showed him what to do, no one made it easy for him, he didn't follow anyone or complain like a big loser.

At the other end of the spectrum you've got people complaining in this topic that their quasi-janitorial job isn't getting them anywhere. I mean shit, the type of jobs we're talking about here partially consists in making sure people don't have CAPS LOCK turned on when they login in the morning. What the hell did you expect?! No one gets anywhere special by following the safe, pre-designed path that you've borrowed. What you do isn't special, you're probably spending most of your work day typing in some MySQL when you're not typing rants on Slashdot with your Cheetos-scented fingers.

I was just watching the Colbert Report and there was this thing about the university degrees the world's billionaires had. And guess what, a lot of them had none. Steve Jobs had none. Bill Gates had none. John D. Rockefeller had none. And you know what else these guys have in common? They're hustlers, and they got rich as hell. They didn't work for 20 years for some large company waiting to realise their career is shit, they took the bull by the horns, created their own damn company and strived to make it successful.

You don't want to create your own company? You don't have any sort of entrepreneurial spirit? You don't want to quit your day job? Well too bad for you. In life you can only choose two of the following three things : have it easy, do something you like, become rich and respected. You chose the first two, don't complain you'll never see the third.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Billly Gates]

"So now IT is not a cost center, it's a return on investment to the owners. Much like the accountants themselves."

LOL

I like that. Accountants do not bring in revenue and only salespeople and workers bring it in so lets cut costs and outsource and can all the accountants. You would never see this happen but this seems like a strange similiarity.

The problem is reducing costs is difficult to calculate but cutting budgets can easily be shown to increase productivity in a spreadsheet (economic productivity). An accountant can make a decent raise in his salary by screwing the I.T. departments as instant savings can be made. After all I.T. does not make revenue directly.

We have a culture of screwing other employees whenever times get tough and this is what I see happen. Where my wife worked they laid off hundreds of employees and every department got axed but the HR who actually hired more people. They laid people off to justify why they were more important and did the firings in secret without managerial approval. If a manager complains then he or she might be next. Accountants do the same thing and its themselves they care most about.

 

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Capt.DrumkenBum]

I'm thinking about going back to school to become an accountant.

Funny, because I have been thinking the same thing lately. That and that an accountant with a background in IT could rule the world! :)

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

Oh please.

People washed out of the Compsci program made 3.75's and higher in the Business degree programs. Frequently finishing the homework in under a half an hour a day.
You have this illusion that compensation equals difficulty when you are young. It isn't until later that you see on the job that isn't true.

I saw the writing on the wall and left to manage. I see the idiocy of executives who waste enormous amounts of money and succeed mainly by moving the goal posts.

Most upper executive jobs are not open to the general public. You are born into those ranks. Bobby's cousin gets you a job starting at executive v.p. and you move up from there. The college folks mostly start out as leads, then go to supervisors, managers, and if they are lucky/very smart, get promoted to directors. After 22 years, they still are not in the executive ranks that "Biff's" son joined at 26 straight out of college. The way you have a shot of breaking into those ranks is if you get rich, your kids can go to the right schools and network. Not just because they are at the right school- but also because you are rich.

The shareholders have no ability to reign in over payment because the laws have been changed so that the shareholders votes are almost entirely "advisory". I.e. they can all vote "NO" and it changes nothing. The ceo's raise still goes in from his directors who are CEO's at other companies where he is a director.

The current health care system is one of the most effective forms of slavery invented yet. Most people don't even realize they are slaves. It's crazy that the work week was 40-45 hours a week in the 1950's and after 50 years of productivity, people still *must* work 40-45 hour work weeks.

It would be whining if I'd stayed and taken the abuse (best being-- 6 weeks of 72 hour weeks- followed by "take friday after noon off-- Great job" while the manager got a 15% bonus for delivering on time). I left it and advise others to do so a well until the working conditions and compensation equal out.

The funny thing is, most people in IT are not even asbergers syndrom social loners any more. They just got the degree without realizing it requires working on christmas and thanksgiving day (to avoid business downtime) and weekends (same) and 5am and 9pm-- sometimes back to back. And then-- seriously-- pisses me off- after one of my reports works at 4am to 5:30am and then is expected to be in and work from 8am to 5... er.. really 6pm.. and then respond to an emergency that night. Business doesn't even dream of asking accountants for that.

It irritates me the way managers make estimates and commitment dates-- without even bothering to ask an IT person what's possible. "Absolutely, this will be ready in 3 weeks." It's only because they have no respect for their reports that they do this. I would find a way to be very positive and yet hang them out to dry. Because if you succeed, the next time it'll be 2 weeks.

And those lovely charismatic sales people-- who get the account by promising IT will deliver 8 weeks of work in 5 weeks. Who get the bonus. Who get the dinner out. I've always managed that in my personal career by not putting up with it. But I also knew to get out of the front line. I take care of my guys as best as I can. If I was a soulless type like those around me, I'd be more focused uphill. So perhaps I am still being "stupid" in the hardest reckoning.

---

And seriously- those executives... omg. Now that I deal with them directly I can see just how clueless they are. How inconsistent they are. It's amazing. Things happen because they have *power* - not because they are smart. They are absolutely driving our companies into the ground and most of them could be replaced with just about anyone and the outcome would be very similar.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[evil_aar0n]

The first "lords" and "kings" were simply early examples of those who were better at robbing and bludgeoning others, and then putting on airs about it. A deification of thieves, if you will.

All throughout history, one man has tried to better another, and not always through "honest" methods. This is nothing new. It doesn't make it right, by any means, but complaining about it won't fix it.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in that boat too. I don't blame my parents though. Future people will not look back and loath us as they will loath many of the others.
This is an excellent /. story for a change.
I deeply wanted to travel so I got out after only about 21/2 years total in IT - I had manouvered myself into a niche position that didn't offer vertical or indeed horizontal shuffle and was surrounded by 'the dark sarcasm in the classroom' of the other departments where the rest of them engaged in assassinating each others character to get ahead and move to the next level.
It was interesting in that I could observe their behaviour and see for myself just why I didn't want to stay. I moved abroad to teach English in Asia.
Turned out to be a mistake really after 4 years I think but no regrets, as there were some plus sides. I travelled a lot and saw some great things.
If I was in that situation again, and knew I had to travel I would not have gone to Asia though - no way. Actually, I would have gone to the west coast of the good'ol US, maybe Portland Oregon or northern Cali - San Jose or San Fran. I'd been to Chicago before but it was too far from the ocean for me.. But alas it's too late for more adventures and I'm stuck in muddy Ireland for the moment. I'm single with no debts, but only modest savings. I'll leave Ireland again in all likelihood, as I don't want anything to do with this new EU takeover that's coming. Thinking about Chile!

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. 75% of the problem is attitude. Everyone thinks their hot shit, but have the people skills of a cave troll. The reason sales and executives do so well, is that their careers depend on them developing good relationships with other people, mal-indended or not, it keeps you valuable. I work at a datacenter as a sysadmin, and we typically just hang out and wait for someone to come running with a problem. We explain what happened, and offer solutions to alleviate that pain. They love us and shovel in the cash. It's all about servicing the customer, and teaching them to appreciate value. If you offer a better way, they'll pay for it.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

I actually mostly agree with you here. I *would* be a zero-government anarcho-capitalist -- if I believed that the labor side of the labor-vs-management battle would fight effectively enough. In that case, pro-union laws (among others) would be unnecessary and freer competition could prevail.

If only that theoretical equilibrium actually existed.

An 8%-and-dropping unionization rate in the U.S., combined with increasingly-long work weeks (for those of us still employed; yes, I know the "official" number, at about 33h/week currently, continues to decline as more people become unemployed) suggests otherwise.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

Yep... I'm not yet 30; I was born during the Reagan era. But from looking at the different generations of people in IT -- the greybeards who hacked on mainframes, the gen-Xers before me, my gen-Y colleagues, and the hyperactive early-20s kids now -- I see *exactly* these sorts of cultural rings in the IT tree.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

Very well said; the distinction is a good one. IT is a relatively free-market culture because the bulk of its members want it that way, and so we have resisted things like unionization, and have supported things like exemptions from overtime pay.

Well, not we, the laborers of IT -- the managers of IT (actually, I have something of a foot in both camps, professionally, though still largely more in the former). But we the laborers have typically agreed with management on those libertarian policies -- in much the same way that poor white Republicans often oppose government healthcare, even though they would stand as among the greatest beneficiaries of it -- and we are poorer for it. For all our claims towards a rational-actor model, in practice, even the more-rational among us do not always behave in a rationally-self-interested way...

My ideal society is probably anarcho-capitalism. But that has a dependency (among many others) on an assumption of labor-side behavior with a strong will and Hank Rearden-like assertiveness and principle. Unfortunately, that assumption is a very poor one...

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

The assumption you're making is that any laborer can be "indispensable"; that any sysadmin or programmer, if they are really good, could be irreplaceable.

In very tiny, niche roles, that remains true.

But the fact of the matter is global competition; we're not talking about the town blacksmith making you a fine gun to hunt dinner with anymore. If you're irreplaceable, boo fucking hoo - in any major city, another smart guy can be hired for similar premium pay; there's enough of a labor base to support the selection. And if not a smart guy, well, it could be a guy with the social skills to smooth-talk his way into the job. Either way, if you're willing to look more-broadly, you can get cheaper help, e.g. from Russia or India.

The moral of the story: nobody is indispensable - there are far too many other people on this planet willing to do a given job for that special property to arise in practice. Even CxOs replace themselves every few years or so, jumping from one corporate board to the next.

Every one of us, from the janitor to the CEO, is a replaceable cog in our chosen corporate machine. Don't like it? Too bad - remember, in a consumption-driven disposal economy like ours, the squeaky wheel gets replaced, not oiled.

But even in the rare case that somebody is relatively-irreplaceable, will management understand that? That depends on their competence and willingness to think objectively (which rarely happens). I have seen even top-flight developers, people whose knowledge and skill is expensive to replace, from the country's best schools get laid-off because management wants to save a few bucks by working other developers longer hours and not paying for premium talent. Technical quality is irrelevant anymore...

The notion of "IT hero" put on a pedestal was one that died in 2001 with the end of the dot-com boom; only in consulting, where half the job is self-puffery and propagation of mass-delusion for consulting-firm contract sales, does this myth still exist. Today, we are all just "resources" (not even "people"; that we live and breathe rather than running on electricity like a printer or file server goes unrecognized in our project language) in some project manager's work-breakdown structure...

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

Longer than that, really. But you're right.

That said, as another poster noted, IT's culture and business environment is a free market, compared to other professions that raise artificial barriers to entry via licensure (medicine, law, plumbing, etc.).

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Money for Nothin']

Running. Lead pipe. Both ways. :-)

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[jandersen]

where did you find a company where bosses actually know good workers from bad workers?

Hmm, I'm not quite sure how it came about. I think I can disclose without risk that the company I work for is called Informatica - as it is now, I have almost nothing but praise for them, their work culture and ethics. It wasn't like that in the beginning, some 8 years ago, when I joined; it was all "our department against theirs". I think much of it is down to communication from both sides. I don't claim to have made the company change, but I think a large part of the change I perceive is down to a change in my perspective on things and my way of communicating. Before I - and everybody else - would say things like "those idiot managers", "useless salespeople", "clueless bureaucrats in IT" etc; I remember distinctly that I decided to stop and instead talk about pulling in the same direction; instead of calling others idiots, I now say that my department make so and so valuable contribution, when I criticise I try to say things like "I know you are already overloaded with work, but perhaps ...". What I can see is that it is rather infective; nobody wants to be at war, and I suspect that people in the other departments have been feeling the same way that we did.

Perhaps this kind of misery is more common in American companies, simply because American culture puts much more emphasis on individual performance and less on group performance.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[The_Quinn]

Alan Greenspan hasn't been a capitalist since the 60's, any more than Hillary Clinton is (who professed to be a deep fan of Atlas Shrugged).

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

>Somehow, we let them do this to us. When I was getting into the field, we were priest kings in air-conditioned rooms with complete power. But with each passing >year, we underbid each other and passed control over to people who worked us to death.

Fact is YOU were pseudo-kings at that time because there were too few people knowing how those damn machines worked ... I'm not generalizing here, but I met so many IT guys who were acting like divas simply because they knew the company couldn't fire them ... Now that those positions are less critical because obviously there ARE skilled IT guys on the market, I would not hesitate to fire that kind of guy if he acts like a diva again. I'd prefer to pay a f.....ing consultant 2K $ a day rather than keeping an asshole in the company.

Sales guys seem to have a nice life getting those lunches and free drinks etc. but let me tell you :

1) after several years you don't give a shit anymore about getting 4-hours long lunches with shitty clients ;

2) don't forget that you don't need tech guys unless you have CUSTOMERS. Without customers, no company and therefore no job for IT guys. Got that ?

I know both "worlds" because I've been working as a Key Account Manager in several telecom companies, but always did technical things myself in order to help our IT guys when necessary. I understand both worlds, and sometimes that's had to see that IT guys only see sales people as assholes who have it all, and on the contrary, some salespeople often think that IT guys act like divas because they think they have the world in their hands ...

Don't generalize like that ...

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Interoperable]

Right, I agree with all that. I was certainly painting an unnecessarily black and white picture for the sake of argument. I think that the .com bubble saturated the labor market in IT and it's resulted in some hard times as it readjusts; that's compounded by the recession.

I do, in fact, think that a laborer can be indispensable but only once they've reached some type of role where they're using they're intellect; for example, a job-site foreman, head general contractor, etc. Arguably those aren't labor roles, but they are the result of being very talented at labor.

If IT has truly become a labor type job it may be time to seek greener pastures. If the good people in IT find other things to do I suspect that the notion of an IT hero will return as management finds out that "the mystics of muscle" can't administer a system. Who is John Galt?

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so sorry, I honestly didn't realize the original poster I responded to, Maxo-Texas, started out as an orphan in a third world country.

Maxo-Texas, I apologize for my remarks. I had no idea your boss and coworkers treat you the way they do because of your background as an orphan in a third-world country, and not because of the professional choices you have personally made, and continue to make.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

Didn't high school teach you that jocks run the world?

So the current situation is the "Revenge of the Jocks" who couldn't accept the "Revenge of the Nerds" mentality that had prevailed.

It's no longer good to be a geek anymore. The jocks want the cheerleaders back.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

Your missing the point.

First, while your decisions can affect your promotion to some degree, the fast majority of executive class positions are held by people who have upper class parents.

The last hard data I could find quickly is from 1988, which is admittedly pretty dated, but my personal experience in multiple companies
Boone et al, found in 1988 that CEO's in 1986 (p37) that only 18% of CEO's were from lower class backgrounds while 54% of the population met that criteria.
They concluded that "the majority of the nations business leaders come from the relatively privileged class" (1988b, p.37)

A search for more recent information on the first CEO that came to mind quickly turned up this...
"As his father did before him, Hurd attended the Browning School - a prestigious all-boys school where classmate Jamie Dimon, now CEO of J.P. Morgan Chase, remembers seventh-grader Hurd as a good basketball player..."

How about IBM's leader Sam Palmisano... father owned an auto repair shop.. sounds like I might have a shot... oh wait.... "Palmisano was born into an old family that had its roots in eighteenth-century America. Its members had spread their influence across the United States as physicians, politicians, and business leaders."

Starting to get it? The ILLUSION that you have a chance is much greater than the REALITY that you have a chance. I can't find the source but I read the odds were about 50:1. So 1 in 50 people move up these days. We are much less class mobile than we used to be. It's hard. I climbed from lower class to lower upper class. That's about all I'm going to manage and I had to make some brutal choices and I'm reasonably intelligent (now with improved Dale Carnegie charisma too!)

The ILLUSION you have a chance of being rich is heavily promoted by the wealthy who now own basically all media. That's how they get the lower class to vote against their own self-interest and vote to charge lower tax rates to wealthy people that the lower class pay themselves (source on that tax rate bit: warren buffet who stated he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary).

---

Now -- on your reading comprehension of my post.

My bosses took advantage of me *because I was in IT*. I got out of IT and went into management. My recommendation above was, "don't enter IT; get out of IT if you are in it".

In the dark ages of IT in the early 1980's, you worked normal to long hours and you had complete freedom and fairly damn good pay. How good? In the early 1980's you could make the equivalent of about $120k to $140k today. I knew people who would work six months and then take six months off. Languages and hardware lines were stable for long periods of time. You had cobol, fortran, accounting, banking, etc. Any reasonably intelligent person could master a language or operating system in six months.

Now, it's the complete opposite. well almost. You still work long hours but now you have no freedom, and the pay has dropped to fair or poor, and you *frequently* have to work holidays now too. The software becomes obsolete in 24 to 36 months so continuous training on your personal time is required unlike most other jobs on the planet. Training for these marvelous jobs often takes 5 years and is brutal (in my degree program there were *three* "weedout" classes with over 75% failure rates-- the homework for database and assembly language classes were each 20 hours a week-- vs the 2 hours a week the folks who washed out and went to business degrees had).

IT is not a job I would recommend to anyone unless you are certified genius and/or can get a suitable government job. If you like computers, play with them on your spare time. If you are "smart" and a "hard worker" you will do much better, have more family time, have better dating potential, have more free time, and avoid working in the A.M. and on holidays, by choosing a field besides IT.

Don't get me wrong... I do recommend IT over some jobs... say like Alaskan fishing or coal mining.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[dsavage]

Actually, for an accurate accounting of how outsourcing came into being, you should read "The World is Flat." It's a good read, or, if you have a commute, get the audio book and listen to it on the way to work.

And I would feel sorry for the American automobile industry, but I just can't... They brought it on themselves. You can't blame consumers for not buying your product. If there's something wrong with the product, you change the product. And then there's the UAW. My sister is currently laid off from GM, but is going to receive 95% of her pay FOR A YEAR, to sit at home. When I was laid off from a dot-com, I got unemployment and the promise of a good recommendation, (which I never actually got.) My father on the other hand retired from GM, and he gets a monthly stipend from them as a "consultant" on the outdated equipment that he used to repair. He doesn't actually have to do anything, but he gets it anyways. This is on top of his pension and 401k, IRA's and whatnot.

Now, I don't want to be flame-bait, but there isn't any business out there that can handle that kind of overhead and an unwillingness to change their product mix and expect to survive. It's just bad business. -D

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

obviously if Maxo-Texas had thought my very short, extremely sarcastic -- bordering on flamebait -- anonymously submitted comment argued something false, he would have dismissed it as a troll.

instead his 13-paragraph response is proof he considers my argument 100% correct, and so I don't need to dignify his paroxysms above in the slightest.

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Anonymous Coward]

How did it come to this?

What do you mean, come to? Didn't high school teach you that jocks run the world?

Working hard and being useful just means someone else is working less hard, being less useful, and making more money. That's life.

I blame my parents for raising me with morals.

Man....didn't know anybody else felt like this. I actually feel handicapped because I was raised and taught to "do the right thing".

Re:Govt Security, Accounting, Jobs with boots Here

[Maxo-Texas]

Not at all... I could be arguing in my spare time.

Kudos on the use of "paroxysms" in a sentence tho.

Very timely...

[Jon-ZA]

I'm completely jaded with the IT industry after having spent the past 10 years installing toner cartridges and mapping network drives for people that show very little gratitude. I tried my best to move up the corporate ladder, so to speak. I started out at the bottom and slowly worked my way up passed junior admin, helpdesk, and into senior technical support. Then I hit a vertical limit at one company, with no choice for further career progression. I looked around and evaluated my skills, but everything pointed to a horizontal move. With my desire to have a stable, decent paying job, I had inadvertently boxed myself into a position which was going to be almost impossible to get out of. My skills were clearly tailored around supporting users, with some network admin and even lecturing experience. Then, a miracle happened, I got laid off from that job and that's when life started. Suddenly a thousand possibilities entered my head. And that's where I'm at right now. I'm taking 6 months off, I put my condo up for rent and I'm going traveling to Africa! I'm hoping to accomplish quite a few things when I get there, re-focus my efforts and rejuvenate my enthusiasm, when I get back I want to start my own company, I'm tired of working for people. I want to experience owning a company firsthand and seeing my efforts pay off, literally. I'm tired of making shareholders richer and richer with each passing month. So if you skipped all of that here's the sum up. If you don't enjoy what you do, take some time off to figure out what it is that you want to do with yourself. Emphasis on 'time off'. They say that people change careers 5 times in their lives. This change, for me, will be change number 1 and I'm looking forward to it like you cannot believe.

Re:Very timely...

[Krneki]

I did something like this, except it was for a year and half. And it helped me a lot to focus on what I need to do to be happier. Go for it and enjoy it.

Re:Very timely...

[Spazztastic]

Best of luck to you. Glad to see you found a light at the end of the tunnel of cube farms.

Re:Very timely...

[shentino]

Get back to us when your chicks have finally hatched. I wish you the best of luck though.

Keep your guard high, and your hopes even higher.

Re:Very timely...

[that IT girl]

I would love to take time off and do this, but unfortunately I can't. I simply don't have the funds to go for long without an income. How did you manage?

Re:Very timely...

[irving47]

I'm guessing the condo rental depending where it is. I doubt once you get to Africa it's all that expensive. Lions are tasty and bullets are cheap. :)

Re:Very timely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! So are you just taking the sabatical and rejuvenating or are you looking to expand your work elsewhere? I'd be interested.

Re:Very timely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Time off sounds like a great idea... but it would require me to also take a break from eating and sleeping indoors to say nothing of reading /., so I think I'm going to have to pass on that.

Re:Very timely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, well said man.

Your enthusiasm is contagious ;).

Best of luck.

Re:Very timely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now THAT is a great plan. I did something very similar, taking 3 years off from my supposed information security "career" to travel the world. When I returned to the states, I had discovered that all I really wanted to do was to leave again. I am now working again in information security, but my goals and values have completely changed. If I get fired from this job, I absolutely do not care, since that would mean another extended trip. And if you don't care whether or not you get fired, then many work-related worries magically go away. I completely agree with most of the postings here that IT careers really do suck, but that really only matters if you attempting to get something out of it in addition to the money. I used to care about the actual security work. Now it's just a job, and its much better that way. Every paycheck is worth to me about 2 additional months of future travel, and that's good enough.

Re:Very timely...

[twokay]

That sounds awesome, i did something similar a little while ago, quit an (IT) job i was getting bored in. I chose to leave, got a different job with less hours while i planned some time away traveling. Right now is probably not the best time to be quitting a job unless you really feel you have to. But in a situation with more opportunities, people should take the risk.

One of the reasons i quit was "computer overload", i was spending work and spare time thinking about computers; and the job i was in was pretty varied as far as IT jobs go (i wasn't in front of a terminal all day).

I'm looking for a job now, and after having had a break i actually have enthusiasm for IT work again. Hopefully i can find a place at a small business, I've never felt i would get on in a large corporation.

Re:Very timely...

[Anonymous Coward]

To fund my 6 month "find myself" vacation in Sweden, I rented out my BMW and 6 bedroom beach-side cabin.

Yeaaaah..

Re:Very timely...

[Jon-ZA]

Luckily I got a severance package which is going towards this trip, combine that with everything that I have already sold, as in sold everything in my Condo, and you have the makings of some semblance of financial security that will last me at least 6 months. I don't care much for the status that comes with awesome home entertainment equipment like big flat-screens etc When I get back there will be something better to get, as soon as I released my grip on the importance and value of worldly possessions a lot of very good things started happening. For me thing's changed about 2 years ago when my Dad died from Cancer. Suddenly I started putting life into perspective. I realized that it's not worth waiting until I'm 65 to retire and 'enjoy' myself. Rather, I'm going to be taking these 'mini-retirements' throughout life and enjoy as much as I can. This first trip to Africa is going to be trip #1 of many. It's amazing how the world works in your favor as soon as you make a big decision. I feel an absolute ton of gratitude for my place in the world right now and for the experiences I've had thus far that have brought me to this point in life and I'm looking forward to what is yet to come.

Re:Very timely...

[Jon-ZA]

A lot of people don't realize this but taking time off does not equate to being a slacker. It has more in line with providing you with, ultimately, a better set tools to make informed decisions and a better set of rules to live life by. Taking time off is probably one of the most undervalued ideas in this generation and until you're faced with it by consequence of some dire event, such as is my case, you'll never know any better and continue to live life unhappily for the remainder of your days. Going down that path was not on my agenda of things to do so the alternative is, make the choice to actually show up for and live life! Thanks for the well wishes.

Re:Very timely...

[Jon-ZA]

Maybe a bit of both. I'm going to go where the wind blows but I do have a loose set of things I want to accomplish and one of those is to perhaps do some volunteer work not working with or touching computers. My ultimate goal is to actually come back with a fresh outlook on life and my future career aspirations. I would like to, eventually start a company, and be my own boss and experience the highs and lows of that. The sabbatical was the initial idea for this whole thing but as the days have gone on I've added a lot of additional thing's I want to accomplish but whatever it is, the ultimate goal is to rejuvenate, re-energize, and re-focus my life and come back a better person for it. Sounds cheezy but there's more value to this decision than meets the eye. But hey, who knows, maybe I find an incredible job there and I stay! :D

Re:Very timely...

[that IT girl]

That sounds really nice :) I grew up dirt poor, so even now that I am making a little more than I was used to before, my frugal ways are pretty ingrained--I don't have many clothes or gadgets, just a small 20" TV I got at Walmart, etc. (I do have a few more things now due to my very sweet guy... he tends to show affection through gift-giving, plus we're both nerds so he helps fuel my longing for gaming and gadgets so we can play together.) Anyway, I say all that just to make the point that I can get by with little and I've certainly learned that possessions are not what it's all about. I'm really happy to hear about your experiences, it sounds so amazing :D You've given me a bit of hope that I can pull something like that off. People need to learn to really live instead of just existing.

Depends on if you have a degree or not.

[WarJolt]

Some IT guys I know don't have degrees. If you have a bachelor degree in anything it would be a lot easier to change careers. Go to school part time.

Re:Depends on if you have a degree or not.

[Billly Gates]

I got my degree. Didn't help as I am substitute teaching until something pops up. I would wait until the recession leaves first as anyone who changes careers falls in the non-experienced crowd.

Re:Depends on if you have a degree or not.

[Totenglocke]

True. I graduated not too long ago and went into IT because I'm good at it and that's where the job offer came from, even though my degree is in Economics. I've already realized that I don't care for it too much (well, not necessarily IT, but consulting) and am already planning on switching careers and becoming an Actuary. The tests are only done twice a year, so I have to wait for spring to start working on it. However, I'm second guessing doing that now since the US government seems hellbent on running the insurance industry out of business -- doesn't seem like a bright idea to change to a new career in an industry that might not exist in a few years.

Re:Depends on if you have a degree or not.

[irving47]

Interesting. I have considered teaching science or math (or god forbid, computers), but ONLY at a private school (I want to be sure I can beat the kids (kidding)) if I could stomach their religious leanings. But you don't seem to be pursuing that... Money? Or something else?

Re:Depends on if you have a degree or not.

[Billly Gates]

Children test your patience and teaching is a difficult profession. Its like sales in that you have it or you do not. You need to motivate students who hate school to want to learn, make it fun, control classroom, and of course improve scores on No Child Left Behind tests.

I do not like being a prick and I have to do that alot when I am a sub to scare students into shape otherwise I will be run over.

If you work at places like mental wards as a teacher or special schools you can get a trained professional in the classroom who can legally yank kids so you can do your job. I worked at a hospital where the school district had a few classrooms and I tried not to laugh as a student tried to attack me with a pencil and three people came in, grabbed him, and gave him a shot right there. Then he acted like a different person and it was reminiscent of the movies.

If you have a passion to make a difference in someones life, have patience for annoying behavior, and have good people skills you should go for it. A credential takes 2 years and you may have to work for free for a whole semester or year as an intern before you can actually get paid. :-( That depends on your state.

Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[siddesu]

I got out of IT after more than 10 years in the field (and CTO-ing for a public company in my last job) as I finally got fed up with it. After a longish sabbatical, I started a small bakery/coffee shop. I'd say it is as big a change as you can axe for, and I have been pretty happy so far. I still use some of my mad skillz, but since I went the hard way - designed and built my shop and equipment more or less from scratch - I had to learn (and I am still learning) a lot of stuff - from carpentry, construction work and machinery to advanced chemistry. ;)

At the beginning, the money wasn't that good and it was hard work and long hours, but eventually things picked up and now I am better off than I used to be. The biggest benefit outside of the pay is the free time -- now I have a lot of time for side projects. Half are somewhat related to extending the business, the other half are just things I like. I don't push it very hard though, because that was what I was running away from in the first place. Overall, I regret it I didn't run away from the field earlier. That said, I got into IT by accident, and I didn't like it that much.

Good luck.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[evanism]

amen brother. I've been a CTO 4 times now, and I have completely tossed in the towel. Doing a gig with my wife selling kids clothes on the 'tubes.... I used my brainz to do all the internal IT BS, but that was easy... now Im having REAL FUN. Hours are good.

I had someone ask me if they should pursue a career in IT, and I told them to AVOID IT AT ALL COSTS. Im certain some jobs can be fun, but in the majority you are abused, blamed for everything, underresourced, surrounded by people who have no idea and BS hours and late night call outs... PLUS micro managed budgets where you need to justify every blank DVD purchase....

FORGET IT. I have never been happier!!

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[hab136]

I'd say it is as big a change as you can axe for

I really, really hope you used "axe" as a joke.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[siddesu]

Good luck :)

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[siddesu]

Please, never, ever use axe as a joke.

Someone might get hurt, or worse, you may blunt the instrument and make a mess trying to kill yourself.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[jprupp]

"That said, I got into IT by accident, and I didn't like it that much."

...but you're still reading Slashdot, so I don't buy it.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[DeadTOm]

I worked as a LAN support tech in the banking industry for just over seven years. For the first couple of years it was great. The pay was good, the work was satisfying, lots of travel and the company took care of me. Then came the inevitable reorganizations, one a year it seemed like. The new people in charge had no comprehension of what IT people do. As far as they were concerned we're just the people that fix broken stuff. They had no idea of all the things we do in the back ground that never get noticed because it was all working exactly as it was supposed to. They only noticed when things went wrong and in the corporate world you're only as good as your last mistake. They kept moving our offices around to smaller and smaller spaces until it was down to just me tucked away in the far corner of the basement (ala "Office Space", seriously).

First, like someone else said, I had to justify every purchase I made, every drive across town to check out a problem that couldn't be looked at remotely, hell every box of pens I bought. Then for the last few years it became a fight every year to justify my position at all. They finally laid me off this last May. I've spent the summer using what was left of my cashed out 401K to supplement my wife's income to take care of our family and now that is nearly depleted. I've done lots of temp work and interviewed for plenty of IT positions at less than half the pay that I was getting. In fact I just interviewed this last Monday morning with one of my former employer's competitors, doing the same job for a whopping $11.75 an hour. Apparently that's all my degree, certifications and 7 years of experience commands any more. If they offer me the job I'll have no choice but to take it and do my best not to have a chip on my shoulder about it.

I really feel like IT is a dead end industry now. I've also been asked many times if IT is the way to go for a career and I always say no. Very emphatically NO. A janitor gets more appreciation and better pay than a tech here. Maybe that'll be my next career move. Cleaning up after snot nosed 10 year olds at an elementary school. Somehow it doesn't seem all that different than doing tech work for a large corporation.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[GrayCalx]

A very positive read. I live in a small town and while I telecommute and get paid a good wage, I'm entirely burnt out on developing software and configuring off-the-shelf software. I daydream about going out on my own to something similar to your bakery, its very encouraging to me that you've been successful. Congratulations and continued success.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[Anonymous Coward]

Brilliant! That's my secret plan as well (but probably just coffee). It was good to read your comment because I can imagine the long hours and hard work but I had no idea of the potential profit of a store.

Any other gems of advice you'd like to share?

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[Overzeetop]

Really? I can only presume you've graduated to "owner" status and don't work the business(es) any more. Most small shop owners I know who are successful have very little free time outside of the business. Now, owners who have moved on from managing their own shop to "owning" several usually do quite well, but it normally takes quite a while - and a fair bit of business acumen - to get to that point.

Re:Out of the frying pan, and into the fire

[siddesu]

I was the owner of the business from day one, but I haven't "graduated" from the job at all.

While I do use some help from other people, and the really menial stuff is heavily automated (by myself), I still work in the shop, and do a lot of the work.

Seriously thinking about prostitution

[Anonymous Coward]

My current job does not pay enough for me to keep hope for a decent future. I've just become a wage slave.

I might as well begin a second job as a prostitute, that would be sick, but at least I could save a little.

Re:Seriously thinking about prostitution

[syousef]

I might as well begin a second job as a prostitute, that would be sick, but at least I could save a little.

I'm not certain but I don't think there's much of a market for overweight male prostitutes in their mid 30s working out of their mother's basement. Then again, I guess it depends where you live.

I'm joking. But if you're really serious all i can say is it won't be worth it.

Oi

[Turbo_Button]

I'll take your job!

OK how do you get jobs like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you already have IT training? I don't understand how you people get jobs you seemingly are unqualified for.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[neoevans]

IT isn't about training, it's about being able to find answers and solve problems of a technical nature. Development requires training, although the best developers I know are almost entirely self-taught. The best in IT usually come from other backgrounds, and have an aptitude for technology. The "pure techies" don't go very far. Throw in an MBA, CGA or PMO certificate and you are moving up in IT.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[lemox]

The "pure techies" don't go very far.

Why would you say that? (Serious question, just curious).

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[FPhlyer]

My IT Training came from on-the-job. The Navy was still all dumb terminals and MSDOS. My job, as a journalist, eventually required the command provide me with a system for desktop publishing. That meant either Windows 3.1 or MacOS 7. Fearing Mac, they gave me Windows and Aldus PageMaker. When the command began rolling out Windows to the rest of our personnel, I was the only person on-hand who had any knowledge. I became Tech Support. When they began networking the machines together in a workgroup, I assisted with that as well. Not to mention that cabling a ship for closed circuit television is only a few steps removed from cabling 10Base2 ThinNet.
When my ship pulled into Hawaii, I spent my liberty installing Slackware on my personal laptop. By the time I got out of the Navy, I had plenty of experience with Windows, Unix (Linux), and networking. I got a low-level, low-paying job at a financial corporation and quickly worked my way up by proving my ability and obtaining requisite certs, etc.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[mikael_j]

isn't "...moving up in IT." a bit of an oxymoron? From what I've seen "moving up" from a regular IT position generally involves going into management and essentially becoming a non-techie, and if I'll be completely honest I don't consider that being "The best in IT", I consider that being management (just because someone manages geeks doesn't mean this person is a geek him-/herself).

/Mikael

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[iivel]

I find moving up can aslo be attributed to moving 'around' in IT. I started of as a SA (Novell 4), moved into the MS arena (Win NT 4), onto Exchange and mail systems, then hardware, then networking (Cisco and Juniper), worked as an instructor, then DBA (Oracle 9i, 10g), then software development and now primarily IT security. I've found that (on average) 2-3 years is enough time to gain a very solid understanding and level of experience to build on, and that these experiences can keep you motivated and challenged. As long as you stay abreast of current developments (and that is the tricky part) you can certainly remain a geek, while not necessarily being actively geeky at work :) I've been fortunate enough to be in a very large company and move into these positions, excel, and move on. Perhaps one day I'll stop being a techie, but IT Sys Eng. requires (or should) a tremendous depth and breadth of knowledge. I personally enjoy the persuit. I also enjoy being 'the' guy that my division will initial ask if they need someone in a new position. As a more specific reply. My division's Chief Systems Engineer, though a manager, is most definately still a geek. He just doesn't get to play with implementation details as much anymore.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[lastchance_000]

When my ship pulled into Hawaii, I spent my liberty installing Slackware on my personal laptop.

You must be great fun at parties.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moving up in IT = Going from small time network administrator/helpdesk running 4 servers and helpdesk to 20 or 30 people, to senior systems admin with 12 certs only answering to the director of IT. There is a way to move up in IT without going into management...

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[BVis]

Probably because a lot of "pure techies" (NOT ALL, settle down) don't really have such great people skills. Sure, most can get by without making people want to strangle them, but they're notoriously bad at office politics and 'soft' skills which the world has deemed vital to success.

In a meritocracy, based purely on skill and ability, the IT departments would run most companies. We don't live in a meritocracy (probably fortunately in this case), we live in an idiocracy. Mike Judge had it right. Besides, most tech types are far too vital in their roles for management to even CONSIDER promoting them. (That's the management that has a clue. Management that doesn't have a clue figures that since they don't understand what the IT guys do, and all they hear from them is 'No' most of the time ("No, you can't install Crysis on a company computer. No, you can't avoid having to type in your password. No, you can't write down your password on a sticky note and put it on your monitor. etc etc") then what they do isn't meaningful or useful, therefore they don't deserve advancement.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[Alpha830RulZ]

I'm not the OP, but the 'pure techies' that I have seen stalled in IT have the following traits:

1) poor people skills - unable to relate to or communicate well with their customers, perrs and management
2) poor understanding of and alignment with the goals of the employing organization
3) narrow tech focus, often combined with tech fanaticism or bigotry. This includes Windows, Linux, and mac bigots.
4) lack of interest and action towards learning areas that are extensions of what you already know.
5) lack of basic project management capabilities - inability to push an initiative to completion over barriers with little management involvement.

I'm pretty technical, but in every area I'm technical in, there are people around me who are far more skilled. I make twice what they do, and have for close to 20 years, because of the above attributes. In particular, 1,2,and 5 really matter. I'm valuable ( I think) because I'm a good translatoer between the people who can get the point tasks done and the people who need the point tasks done.

I think it's helped me in getting along with the deep technoids that I am fascinated with, and have continued to educate myself in various aspects of technology, including networking, system administration, hardware, and development. This past month, I built a hadoop cluster and am learning Scala, in order to build a prototype of a new application for our division. The driver for this is that our company has a mainframe job for a core product that takes 2 hours to run over a relatively static dataset. My boss would like to demonstrate a new technology approach to solving this problem, that will let us compete better on this product. It would be a bonus if we could replace a $2M/year mainframe charge with a $500k one time expense for building a 100 node cluster. And the side benefit is that it's pretty fucking cool. But I digress.

My point is, the pure techies I know don't have the relationship with their boss to hear about these business problems, the initiative and cross disciplinary understanding to understand how the solution would need to come together, and the organizational skills to push it forward. The pure managers wouldn't know how to approach the problem, figure out how to apply map-reduce to an existing linear computing process, or to build a 10 node apparatus from scavenged near dead equipment. I manage to keep employed because I can bridge this, and perhaps in some small part because I make a point of taking management fishing once or twice a year on my boat.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[EvilBudMan]

My brother got into IT being unqualified. He had an electronics degree and some luck and back then probably the only training you could get was to train yourself.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[Ritchie70]

In part because the "pure techies" are "pure techies" because that's what they wanted to be.

I've been shoved a few feet down the management path and I hate it. Every last little bit of it.

Unfortunately I'm smart and competent so after a few years with a company they do it to me. This is the second or third time it's happened.

Re:OK how do you get jobs like this?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, something tells me half of the guys that were fun at parties back in the slackware days are still sucking wind in the navy pay grades and enjoying their long tours at sea jerking off to porn and getting to know the local goats at Africa's many beautiful ports of call, while Mr. No Fun here is probably enjoying the fruits of his active intellectual life and new career, driving fast cars and knee deep in real pussy.

Life's just a giant head fuck, huh?

From what I've seen...

[benjamindees]

Teaching and working in industrial engineering are popular sideways career moves for IT people. There is still a market in the US for large-scale industrial engineering (heavy machinery, chemical processing, construction). It is typically a similar environment, lots of technical savvy required, not too much customer interaction, but with reasonable hours and less stress than the typical IT position. Teaching is an obvious move, since it is government subsidized, benefits from the recession, has a history of rising prices, and there are still lots of people out there willing to go into debt for the opportunity to learn about the magic of computing. Also, less stressful and typically lower paying than IT.

Re:From what I've seen...

[khakipuce]

15 years ago I left construction for IT, and I can tell you that IT is one hell of a lot less stressful than construction. I now work for a major engineering company (in IT) and the guys supporting the production machinery have a load more hassle than the rest of us.

So I would say don't get out of IT into Engineering environments to avoid stress, but the job satisfaction of building "real" things is higher.

Mechanics

[Anonymous Coward]

I became a performance mechanic, the salary is good, the work is easy, and i still use my problem solving skills from my previous technician job. But now people wont bitch about $250 for a powersupply, harddrive and windows reinstallation, now they'll pay $2500 for something they don't understand and feel good about it.

A Change is as Good as a Rest

[grcumb]

I hit the same point about 2002. The Dot Com thing had soured and I was just tired of the whole game. I did a two year volunteering gig in the South Pacific... and never left.

It's fascinating, because a lot of the stuff I was doing when I first arrived here was the same I'd been doing 10 years before (I mean literally the same technology). Since then I've moved along and now I'm pretty much current with the kind of things I'd likely be doing back in Canada (technical manager for a local university institution). Just this week I submitted patches to a wireless network driver for the latest version of Ubuntu. So what's changed for me? Just this:

IT work in development has taken me to cities, towns and villages in Fiji, the Solomon Islands, East Timor and Vanuatu (where I now live). I'll be off to South Africa in a little over a month.

I have faced crazy demands in the past (Windows activation from a place with no networks and no telephones? Keeping the minutes for a week-long meeting in a town with no power?) I've had malaria and been hospitalised with kidney stones from dehydration. I've shared the room with rats, roaches, fire ants and geckoes. I've slept on cement and eaten more cold rice than I ever thought possible.

But I've also had breakfast in the clouds, been to the brink of volcanoes, rambled in rain forest and snorkeled in coral reefs so often that it's run-of-the-mill, dined with Ministers of state... and helped make people's lives a little more liveable.

The work is engaging, challenging and stretches one's creativity to the limit, trying to figure out how to mesh Internet technologies with cultures largely unchanged in the last 3000 years. It pays a tiny fraction of what I used to make, but the rewards are infinitely greater.

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time like tears in rain. Time to die.

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

How does one connect with this kind of job/lifestyle? I'd be interested and perhaps others would to...

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[Yvanhoe]

What is the name of the organization you work for ?

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[swb311]

Halliburton

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

Try the Peace Corps.

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[freg]

That's quite an inspiring post for me (not that I hadn't thought of doing just that already, it's awesome to hear from those who have done it). As an IT guy who's only been at it for 5 years I'm already starting to see that my previous dream of just finding any local job and keeping it is a little small.. It's a global economy now anyway right? Why shouldn't more of us scrap this American dream thing, travel the world and help out where we're needed. Besides staying here is just padding more wealthy peoples pockets, whether mine or the stockholders, either way it's less beneficial for those who need it most. I'd like to stick with IT, but I'm curious particularly about India, and wondering if any native Westerners have been reassigned there or moved there at will and what your thoughts/experiences concerning your job experience?

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[Kryten107]

How does one connect with this kind of job/lifestyle? I'd be interested and perhaps others would to...

Agreed. I'm graduating in ISDS (information systems + business) in December, and this sounds like a better option for the future than a cubicle farm.

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[Anonymous Coward]

Retard.

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[grcumb]

What is the name of the organization you work for ?

I currently work for the University of the South Pacific (no link, slashdot would kill it).

Most of the ICT4D stuff I did was through VSO (Voluntary Service Overseas). They tend to prefer people with solid industry experience and who have some exposure to cultures other than their own. They recruit throughout Europe, North America and in Kenya, Uganda, India and the Phillippines. In Canada, they recently amalgamated with CUSO. They work in dozens of countries the world over.

There are a ton of organisations seeking talented professionals to do this kind of work. It takes a little time to find the right combination, and some volunteering work is almost always required before you can start contracting your services professionally.

A few good places to start looking:

• The Grameen Foundation - Founded by Nobel Laureate Mohammed Yunus, this micro-finance group does fascinating IT-based work throughout the developing world. Very high standards.
• VSO - One of the best volunteering organisations, in my opinion. They require strong professional skills and experience, and typically provide good in-country support (YMMV from country to country).
• GeekCorps - Founded by Dot Com millionaire Ethan Zuckerman, this group is focused on answering the question of what comes after we've established the basics (e.g. roads, power and water). Interesting work and interesting people.

You give up a lot to do this kind of work, and you need to remember that it's never about you - it's about the people you're working with. But once you stop worrying about career and how to pay for your next Xbox, you'll find the rewards are tremendous.

For my part, just seeing the look in people's eyes when I show them what the Internet can do is enough. Watching them take your work in directions you could never have foreseen is enlightening and humbling. I wouldn't trade this life for the world.

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[slasho81]

Any chance you'd do a Reddit IAMA?

Re:A Change is as Good as a Rest

[grcumb]

Any chance you'd do a Reddit IAMA?

My time online is generally during working hours. The prospect of having to field hundreds of questions is a little intimidating, to be honest.

But much of what I do is public in nature. I write two columns (one IT-related) for our national newspapers. They're collected on my website (see my profile). I also take a lot of photos.

If you're interested in learning still more, I'd suggest taking a membership in the Pacific Islands Chapter of the Internet Society. PICISOC is a pretty active and engaged community, and there's lots of talk about this kind of work. I'm a frequent contributor to the noise.

Lateral moves are sometimes the way to go

[kashani]

I tend to get bored if I stay in the same job too long. Also cash, promotions, and respect are easier to come by when you switch companies. Sad, but true. My progression has been tech support, NOC, Network Engineer, Windows Admin, Network Eng/Sys Admin, Sys Admin/DBA/Network/Developer/IT guy, Application Operations, and finally head Application Engineer which is mostly capacity planning, architecture review, project management, and trying to catch issues before they take the service down. Most of what you learn at one job can be applied at another job. At the very least you'll be that Sys Admin that actually understands routing or the DBA that doesn't blame the network first.

None of the moving around has retarded my career and I'm somewhat sought after these days because I'm a generalist with a 14 years of experience as well as workign at five startups. Moving around like that might not work for everyone, but I recommend it if you're bored to tears with your current bailiwick and actually like the IT field overall.

kashani

Quantitative trading?

[ZmeiGorynych]

How good is your math? If it's reasonably good, then together with those IT skills you can try your hand at quant/algo trading, either from home (risky but fun), or working for some hedge fund or bank (initially as a quant developer, probably). In the latter case you certainly will have a better income than now;) After all the firing of last year, right now there is quite a high demand in finance for experienced IT people.

It is high-stress, of course, but financially quite well-rewarded.

Re:Quantitative trading?

[1s44c]

How good is your math? If it's reasonably good, then together with those IT skills you can try your hand at quant/algo trading, either from home (risky but fun), or working for some hedge fund or bank (initially as a quant developer, probably). In the latter case you certainly will have a better income than now;) After all the firing of last year, right now there is quite a high demand in finance for experienced IT people.

It is high-stress, of course, but financially quite well-rewarded.

It's takes a pretty crooked person to work in investment banking. Most people would have a moral problem with being a parasite on the working world and money really is no compensation.

Re:Quantitative trading?

[endianx]

parasite on the working world

Please explain.

Re:Quantitative trading?

[1s44c]

parasite on the working world

Please explain.

I don't mean parasite as an emotive term, I mean it as a practical assessment of that profession.

The kind of investment banking that involves quants takes money out of stock exchanges without contributing anything. They are gaming the system and don't contribute even the smallest thing back.

Re:Quantitative trading?

[Alpha830RulZ]

Trading != investment banking. Quantitative trading in particular.

Have clients that see the value of your services..

[Anonymous Coward]

I network with many IT Service related companies, having people not appreciate, understand etc has long been a part of this field and any time of customer service type field (when your dealing with clients directly). There are several things you can do to help with this. First a little background, I run an IT Service Company (we provided IT Services for Small Business, we even handle home users). It is clear that your clients are not understanding the value of your services, you probably just need some sales training on how to have your clients relize the value of your services. What you are doing should be saving the companies money (downtime = money) or you should not be there, they need to see you fees as saving them money, it is amazing what a difference this makes with client's attitudes. Think about it everything something breaks they get upset, then ontop of that they have to call you and spend money. Think about if they had a fixed fee and knew what they needed to budget each month, it is amazing how this will change their attitude. You are probably taking it way too personal, I use to have the same issue and sometimes I still do and I have to remind myself that it is not personal.. it is business. I can offer a few quick suggestions. First, have an Service Agreement (contract) that each client signs if they are a business.. it outlines your rates, how quickly your respond, emergency rates, when payments are do etc. This way everything is up front and signed, so if they complain you can simply remind them that if was all detailed in your service agreement. The next thing you have to do is weed out the clients that are always complaining, offer them a service contract for a fixed rate each month so they know their expenses, if they refuse, simply explain that unfortunally you will no longer be able to provide them with services as you are focused on proactivity supporting their computers and network. Start doing this for all your clients (see Managed Service Provider), again remember the Service Agreement. Make sure and focus on your most valuable clients.. have your core client base that pays your bills etc, then come up with guidelines for your perfect clients and only go after and accept those clients. Sign year long contracts. Think about how much more relaxed you will be knowing the checks will be arriving each month. Take a vacation if you can (try and force yourself) .. it is amazing what a difference this will make and how much better everything will seem when you get back. Hire someone to deal with phone calls and requests etc.. this way your not always dealing with "bumber" issues.. but simply focus on fixing things after clients agree to your rates etc. If you would like to chat or talk on the phone about this, send an e-mail to my anonymous e-mail address with your contact info and I'll reply, send some details about what you do etc, e-mail webmail125@gmail.com .

Allow me to summarize

[shashark]

- Skills [read buzzwords] change every few years - Check
- Buzzword compliance resume is more valuable than actual skills - Check
- Your job can be shipped off to India, China or the Next-Offshore-Location any single day - Check
- You make a lot less than what people think you do - and a lot of your staff hates you [esp for Administrators] - Check


Did I miss anything ? So what's there NOT to hate an IT Job ?

Re:Allow me to summarize

[LukeCrawford]

1. the money is pretty good, at least for us UNIX janitors. six figures for a guy who never shows up before 11 and barely made it through highschool (that's me) is hard to beat in most fields. (of course, this is Silicon Valley; you're taking a 30% paycut if you are inland.) I don't know of anything outside sales where being self taught (and obviously good) carries as much respect as it does in IT.

2. standards for dress and social skills are low. My uniform consists of a company T shirt (not the same shirt... I have 7 of them, really!) worn jeans, and heavy boots with a heel grounder. I shave once a month and cut my hair less often. People are okay with me saying things like "the vendor is trying to lock you in so they can screw you" (my favorite luke quote is "If you single-source anything, the company you our buying from has a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to screw you.)

3. the white guy bonus (By which I mean, the premium you get for being on site, and a native speaker of the language. It has more to do with accent and the patience to understand accents than anything else.) is giant. When the boss was born in the Philippians and half the tech staff was born in India or China, being willing to say "what?" and repeating back what people have said so that you actually know what the hell is going on means that you can become massively more valuable than average by just being slightly less racist and taking a few minutes to understand what someone is trying to say. Really, dealing with an accent is much less difficult than dealing with a non-technical, in my mind. Besides the funny talking foreigners make lunch time much more interesting. Like the song says, we're all a little bit racist, but if you can keep it in your pants while you are at work, you are ahead of the game. Most people can't.

4. there is room for both gristled experts who have been doing the same thing since the 70s, and neophiles who get bored after three years. Some things are always changing but some things are the same. (I know guys who have been using UNIX like operating systems longer than I have been drawing breath. Their skills are still relevant.)

Personally, I believe *NIX skills to be much more durable, time-wise, than Microsoft skills, simply because you can follow it down to what is actually happening (something that I believe is difficult to do on a windows system.) and while the interfaces change fairly rapidly both in *NIX and Windows, what the system actually does changes very slowly.

5. Outsourcing is more difficult than you think. One place was trying to outsource all their IT. they were trying the first time I worked for them; I left for greener pastures a year later. A year later, I came back and worked for this company again. It wasn't until I had been working for another year before they got an outsourcing firm that was worth anything at all.

Re:Allow me to summarize

[DoofusOfDeath]

Did I miss anything ? So what's there NOT to hate an IT Job ?

The women!

Oh, wait...

Re:Allow me to summarize

[shashark]

Mod parent up!

Re:Allow me to summarize

[shentino]

My guess is that IT itself is a bubble.

Companies have at least a percieved abundance of people to hire from, so they don't think they can bother treating you with respect.

The minute companies start losing supply, they'll smarten up.

Unfortuantely, employment is just like any other business transaction: All about who has the most bargaining power.

Except for having friends in high places, there is NO SUBSTITUTE for having balls enough to negotiate.

Doubly so if you're in a tanking economy slugging it out with a bazillion other people desperate for work, fighting over jobs being provided by companies who are already pinching pennies as it is.

Re:Allow me to summarize

[that IT girl]

The work itself. I find that 95% of my job dissatisfaction has to do with the interaction with people. Isn't that sad? Some say I'm antisocial, but when people do treat us the way they do, we're undervalued, underpaid, people looking more for buzzwords and bits of paper than actual talent... yeah, I guess maybe I do have a bit of resentment for the people I deal with here. Put me in a room and let me work alone on computers, without dealing with the corporate/political bullshit, and I'd be happy as a clam.

Re:Allow me to summarize

[Anonymous Coward]

i dont know about you but i love my job.
its a great career and its upper managements thinking out of there butt fault if they outsource yours.

Re:Allow me to summarize

[BitZtream]

When you actually do have skills in the field? Theres not a lot to hate compared to other jobs.

When you really aren't qualified to do the job, yes it sucks. So does every other job on the planet you aren't qualified to do.

Re:Allow me to summarize

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't look at me. I've been trying to figure out where to get the fuck out to for about 4 or 5 years now.

Re:Allow me to summarize

[mahadiga]

And

• Elicit Business Requirements
• Design Technical Solutions
• Coordinate Porject Activities

I've gone cold turkey, but...

[blind biker]

I had to do a couple of years in college to redirect my skillset for my new life as a nanoscientist.

It's the best thing I've ever done in my life.

obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions are good someone says..

IT is treated liek crap in this country, someone says...

Wouldnt an IT union be incredibly powerful if it was popular?

I went from

[future assassin]

working for a local ISP for 3 years were I originally was hired to do web page design only/ I ended up doing web page design, billing, sales and answering 100 support calls per day. Yah burnt out pretty good and quit. Two weeks later I got hired at a local hydroponics store. Then after several years I ended up as the manager of that store which was a part of a chain of stores. Seven years at that company I quit over employee bonuses not being paid out and other bullshit and went to a another local smaller hydro store as a manager with the same pay as before.

So now I have the best of both worlds. I get to work at a very relaxed environment get paid better then most people and run a few web sites for my new employer. One of the sites is an e-commerce site and once its set up I get 50% of the profits that come in from on-line sales.

How'd I handle the income change after leaving IT?

[hyades1]

I just started lighting Altadis Behike cigars with $1,000 bills. As long as I smoked at least a couple a week, my income stayed about the same.

QA

[FranTaylor]

I moved from development to QA a few years ago. Pay is similar, much less hassle.

Hey if you have a reputation for being critical and picky, why not get paid for it?

Re:QA

[uncqual]

Hmm... In almost 30 years of systems development at many companies, I've never seen a case where any individual contributor in QA made as much as the top 30% of developers. Perhaps my experience is atypical, but plenty of developers make north of $150K, few QA individual contributors do.

Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[Gopal.V]

Sure, people selling little baggies of things will prosper and grow. But it ain't going to be cheerios.

Honestly, I'm an Indian IT guy who looks like this and is a straight edge vegetarian. But despite all that, twice in Portland, people have stopped me and asked me for some weed.

Now, there's a market which expands during a recession.

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[tomhudson]

It's the hair. No matter how straight-edged you are, you're going to look half-baked :-)

Maybe they wanted it for muffins?

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only twice? Dude, have you looked at your own picture? You look like a desi Jimi Hendrix (and almost every other pothead I knew back in high school).

Don't get me wrong. You should look as you wish and be true to yourself (and Jimi was one of the best guitarists ever) but if you're trying NOT to look like a pothead, you're not succeeding.

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[that IT girl]

I'd believe this. One of my major customers is a retail chain that also owns a dozen or so liquor stores. Guess which stores are the only ones well in the black?

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[elnyka]

Sure, people selling little baggies of things will prosper and grow. But it ain't going to be cheerios.

Honestly, I'm an Indian IT guy who looks like this and is a straight edge vegetarian. But despite all that, twice in Portland, people have stopped me and asked me for some weed.

Now, there's a market which expands during a recession.

You look like Kumar??? :) :) :)

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[msuzio]

Sorry, dude, but you look like a total weed hookup even to my suburban white-boy self. The hair says "this dude probably has some weed". Do you carry a hemp bag? I see a lot of vegans with hemp bags.

Just saying... maybe you should carry some bags of oregano with you and make some money from those seeking your assistance.

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[Anonymous Coward]

But despite all that, twice in Portland, people have stopped me and asked me for some weed.

... but do you have any weed?

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[Rantastic]

But despite all that, twice in Portland, people have stopped me and asked me for some weed.

Might be because you live in Portland and look, at least superficially, like a marijuana enthusiast.

Re:Baggies, yes ... but cheerios?

[jwilson27]

I remember working with you a while ago. You were sent in as a technical consultant.

Gopal is very knowledgeable and a great guy to work with. If I were the "judge a book by its cover" kinda guy, I might not have had the pleasure of working with him.

Gimme a shout next time you are passing by... and don't forget the weed (haha, j/k)

IT started to stink after the bubble burst

[Anonymous Coward]

But I kept on in the industry only to find the people I dealt with become more ignorant and abusive while the industry became flooded and jobs off-shored. All the newcomers had purchased a piece of paper from one institution or another proving they could memorize select parts of select books for a brief period of time. Soon, experienced people were teaching all these papered newcomers how to do what they purchased a piece of paper claiming they already knew and lied about in their interview. In very little time the degrading had slipped to piling on any job possible onto IT personnel and expect them to take a level of abuse that would not be tolerated against any other person. When it started to become difficult to find a job due to the flood of papered memorizers and the start of the depression that cemented my decision to abandon a burning and sinking ship.

I had to figure out what exactly I like to do and how it played into being able to work in IT. I had to consider what natural skills and talents were honed from programming and troubleshooting while finding quick and effective solutions. I chose to go engineering and in the trade industry where they lack quality engineers as the baby boomers retire away and all the youth are still suckered away towards a shrinking IT industry. Honestly, I get more satisfaction from it than I ever did in IT and the pay is solid and steady and better. In time machines and programs will come to replace more elements of the trades but that time is much farther off than the replacement of IT personnel. Vacations are constant as I get paid to go to other countries and paid while I am there. I actually regret having wasted any time in IT when I could have been doing this earlier!

Think about what you like and what you are naturally talented at when considering escape yourself. Many of the everyday disciplines learned in IT can be applied to many other fields when you apply the basic concepts. Cheesy as it sounds, do what you enjoy while playing towards your natural talents.

But i enjoy developing new skills

[grahamsz]

Granted i'm an application developer and slowly morphing into more business practice consulting, but I love learning new things and meeting new challenges.

If i weren't working in new technologies every few years then i think i'd grow tired and want to do other things.

\though if you'd told me when i was 6 that if i learned basic then i'd still have to use it nearly a quarter of a century later, i may never have started

Re:But i enjoy developing new skills

[shashark]

3 Your job can be shipped off to India, China or the Next-Offshore-Location any single day
[Unless you ARE in India - then good for you]

Re:But i enjoy developing new skills

[grahamsz]

It's happened before and probably will again, but at the end of the day I'm confident in my skills and my ability to sell myself.

I'm moving into a role where i work with clients to understand their business and figure out what tools they need to buy/develop to solve the problems they face. I've got a solid track record and am not intimidated by the competition.

Re:But i enjoy developing new skills

[Anonymous Coward]

Companies have already starting moving away from India to even less expensive countries like China and Malissia. Free trade race to the bottom. Soon well all be eating cold rice and living in shacks.

I became a magazine editor for 2 years...

[GrpA]

I did get out of IT entirely for a while. I had been a journalist for about 6 years as a part-time job and found myself suddenly needing to stay at home to help with family problems. About that time a friend knew I was available and asked me to take over a magazine for a few months...

Well months turned into nearly two years.

The pay was very poor - About a third of what I had been earning as an R&D engineer.I lived on instant noodles and even small purchases like $20 items had to be budgeted - some months I didn't even have that!

But I loved the work. I got to meet people and do things I would never have had a chance to otherwise.

But it was only a temporary position and all good things come to an end. About a week after that job finished, another friend heard I was available and asked me if I would consider working part time working for a large ISP as a presales engineer and I got drawn back into IT.

It doesn't matter if it's IT or not - the main thing is enjoy the work your doing. You only get one life. Don't wait until it's too late.

Living like a pauper for two years hurt me financially but I took away the memories of a lifetime. And I got to spend two years working from home and watching my kids grow up... That's something money can't buy.

GrpA

Family?

[corychristison]

Do you have a family? If so, will you be able to continue to support them?

I am expecting my first child any time now (5 days over due date). I am currently self employed and make great money doing it. Especially this time of year, as opposed to the 8 week 'vacation' I have every summer because business dies and income dries right up. Although that is easily manageable with some basic savings and balancing of numbers.

I've been hmming and hauing the thought of finding something more stable and doesn't require me to be on my toes 24/7. There are some openings at [a very large local employer] that I've been considering applying to in the spring.

You always have to weigh the pro's and cons. For me I am actually quite torn but I suppose we'll see what happens when my child is born.

My Pros of current job:
- Flexible. I work when I want and don't when I don't want (it's great when the wife is in and out of false labor all week)
- Good money for the amount of work involved.

My Cons of current job:
- Can be long days if they work out that way.
- No stability in the long run
- Keeping my own accounting for taxes, etc. (trivial, really)

The new job would be a 30% pay decrease, but would be stable all year 'round.
My days would most likely be shorter than what I am pushing myself to do right now.
I would have most benefits and coverage for dental, drugs, etc... which would be handy although i've been fine without it so far! (might change with the baby)

My biggest worry with jumping into a new job would be that I would probably have to ask the wife to go back to work. Which turns into paying for day care, etc. etc..... just a bunch of crap I'd rather not deal with.

So, to the point. If you have family and you are making ends meet no problem right now, stick to it.
If you don't have family and could take a potential pay cut, go for it. Your happiness is worth a lot.

Re:Family?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having a family can be a benefit or hazard in switching careers. More mouths to feed makes it harder, but having another breadwinner can make it so much easier to get through the transition (reason #3267 I regret losing my ex).

Re:Family?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get a job working for someone else man, why not think about taking on a qualified partner or someone you work with so when your busy they can take over and you can do the same for them?

Go law and enjoy life

[Anonymous Coward]

IT was good field, but it was like coal mining or automotive work, where sysadmins are a fungible resource. Want to find a career that you work banker's hours and get twice the pay? Take the LSAT, and get yourself to a law school. For an IT person who generally smart in general, after finishing up law school, the bar exam won't be a problem.

Now, bar membership in hand, you work 1/2 to 1/4 as many hours, work 8-5, and can *never* be unemployed unless you do something stupid and get disbarred. Not every business needs an IT pro. However, every business out there needs an attorney. No, you might not end up as a senior partner of Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe, but law ensures that you will always be able to provide for your family, have a decent car, enjoy real vacations, and sock away savings for retirement.

So, leave the IT stuff for the CV, take law, pass the bar, and actually enjoy life from other than a wage slave perspective. You can always drive by and smirk at your rivals in the IT field in your new BMW 7 series while they are still driving their Kias that they bought before the crash in 2000. An entry level attorney fresh out of a credible law school is guaranteed $75,000 a year, $100,000 if in the bay area.

To hell with Tech, ive gone to Booze.

[Anonymous Coward]

After 20 years of retail sales, service, and corporate planning, i gave up. Ive seen too much change in technology, and no change in my clients. They still think computers work as if they are on Star Trek. Clueless about the machines that help them run their businesses and their lives, so leave them. After all this time Ive decided im in this for me. So now I sell liquor. come hell or high water people buy booze. No one calls that their wine needs to be rebooted. if any one thinks the product is bad, tell them to use more, and then they feel better.

Dude do anything different. Just don't bother with IT anymore, the client base is way too unappreciative

Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes

[Dripdry]

I moved from IT, which i worked on in grade school, high school, college, and after college, into financial advice about 4 years back.
Since I was not professionally in IT for too long (though I performed a number of functions which are considered professional) I may not be the most qualified to answer this, but here goes (forgive the length):

IT for me just became too impersonal and cutthroat. I'm more the type who would rather enjoy my job and take satisfaction in actually doing something meaningful for someone than just collecting a paycheck. If it means less pay, so be it.

The pay cut has been quite significant, but that stems from personal issues with helping immediate family. The pay cut is mostly because I don't (am not charming enough to) wantonly sell insurance, funds, and annuities, but rather good advice. That's not the way to make a fast buck in this business.

Also, my age presents an initial barrier (yours might?) to the instant rapport of those with gray hair (counts for a lot in this business). I say this because experience matters a lot (obviously), so if you've trained your whole life for IT and decide to go elsewhere you may end up with the Catch-22 so many college grads have: You need experience to get the job, but if you don't get the job you can't get the experience.

Speaking of experience, the learning curve was a total mind-fuck and I'm still always trying to keep up. If you're looking for a skill where you can basically fire and forget, finance is not for you. All those details you learned over your career, and the details before that which landed you the job, AND the details that got you INTERESTED in the details that got you the job? Yeah, you have to relearn ALL that stuff, but you're grown-up now, have less time to tinker (most likely), and probably don't absorb things as easily as when you were a kid (if that's when you began learning IT).

In terms of working with people, that's about 50-70% of our job, and we're excessively analytical when it comes to our practice. Regarding other jobs (even VERY scientific/ analytical ones) many of our clients' "normal" jobs have a rather significant social component to them it seems. Many of those skills are somewhat learnable (if that's your concern, no offense meant). Personally, I have mixed emotions about client interaction. It feels wonderful to tell someone how you've ensured that their kid(s) can go to college, or they can retire despite the big downturn we've had, and see the relief on their face. You've just made an enormous difference in their life and that's no small feat. OTOH, sometimes getting people to heed prudent advice, working with them when emotions run high (family death, disability, whatever) or trying to alter old financial habits can be quite frustrating. I've lain awake at night trying to figure out the right questions to ask people to help them realize how critical a piece of advice is.

So, to use a cliche, it's a double-edged sword (the social aspect). It's also not a 9-5 job, you can always do more.

The analytical aspect is great fun IMO and could never have happened without my time spent debugging code from BASIC in 4th grade to assembler and C in college, in addition to the patience gained from troubleshooting hardware/software in person and over the phone. Although most financial "professionals" don't do it, I read prospectuses for insurance contracts, Summary Plan Descriptions, and other docs to ferret out tiny, but often very important details that few other advisors seem to look for or care about. Yes, I enjoy being so analytical. It helps set me apart by leveraging the general skills I learned over many years working with computers.

I'd say the change can be incredibly daunting, however if you find creative ways to leverage your skills (many non-obvious) with your new field you can become an invaluable worker in that field by bringing new perspectives and skillsets that many others might not have.

I'd say it was worth the transition for me, but I'm also not your average bear.

I hope these answers weren't all excessively obvious and they give at least a little bit of direction for whatever you decide to do.

SciOps

[Shag]

I spent about 15 years in IT (programmer, sysadmin, webmaster, web dev, consultant). 5.5 years ago consulting was slow (if you knew my town, you'd know why) so I was looking for a full-time sysadmin gig. Just so happens the biggest local UNIX shops are observatories - the kind with telescopes.

I was applying for sysadmin jobs when a part-time gig operating a small telescope came along. I didn't know a whole lot of astronomy (okay, I knew woefully little, and had never had a single class in it) but the telescope was controlled by UNIX and Linux boxes, and I sure as heck knew those. I had to learn about "right ascension" and "declination." I picked up some other part-time jobs, so my worst year (2005?) ended up only being 80% less than my best dot-com year (2002).

About a year later, I started doing sporadic laser-safety stuff at a couple other observatories. Not in terms of actually working on the lasers, but in terms of making sure they didn't, um, hit any airplanes. :)

A couple years in, some folks who were using the telescope a lot decided that since I was a techie, curious, and actually talked to them (they used an AIM chatroom for communication between collaborators on a couple continents, and all my fellow operators were thoroughly non-instant-messaging sorts), they'd train me to use their data-taking setup (xterms and some custom GUI apps, running in VNCs over an SSH tunnel). So before long I had entries in ADSABS and a .gov email address and life was getting weird.

Last year, after 4 years of being a computer geek surrounded by astronomers, I signed up for an online graduate certificate program in astronomy, in hopes of learning what all those strange words meant. This spring, being in a graduate program weighed in my favor and I got a full-time job as an operator-in-training at a (much larger) telescope, which basically pays enough to live on, here (and has a lot of upside potential).

So... pros and cons of going from IT operations to technical work in science operations...

Cons:
You'll never hear anyone talking about crazy dot-edu or dot-org pay. ;)
The survival of your job depends in part on survival of their funding.
If you're a lone wolf or primadonna, operations is not the place for you.
Work ethic may be different; no foosball table.

Pros:
Science abhors a vacuum between people's ears, so everyone you work with will be smart in some way or another.
Scientists actually recognize and appreciate the fact that You Make Things Work. (egad!)
Hiring authorities often equally happy with a degree in their science, some other science, technology, or engineering.
Stress level can be significantly lower in some cases (like mine).

Oh, and FWIW, science-y places also need electronics engineers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, programmers, sysadmins, builders of instrumentation - all kinds of techies.

Just sayin'.

Re:SciOps

[Anonymous Coward]

I too work in a similar way. I make neutrons in a place toward the south for pure R&D / High Science.
Sadly, there is a downfall here, too. You have to make sure the people for whom you are working are not *purely* theoretical folks. There is a group of these people that will blame the the experiments, the people, and everything else in order to prove that their theoretical model is working. There can be, and often is, a disconnect between math and the real world. This is especially so if you work with very complex systems.

This can be as bad, or worse, than working for a PHB. Usually the PHB will go away if you dazzle with fancy words. These guys don't go away. And then they start to measure things which have errors measured in yards with a micrometer. After years of work and much pain... they discover (or maybe YOU prove to them) that the model was off. Then you hear something like: "But I'm sure we accounted for everything!" and this causes friction. This is even more so if you are dealing with a hefty ego.

In my case, it is a further problem in that we are so HIGHLY regulated that you MUST follow procedure. These type of folk do not believe in following procedure, as they are above any previously written procedure. I think this gets back to the primadonna portion of the previous point.

Mind the people for whom you will be working. In my case a *might* be working for became a working for, and he is just not suited to the position. Good man, but believes that if he thinks it and models it, it *cannot* be in error.

Just be aware of the people, and read their papers.

Re:SciOps

[boristdog]

Science abhors a vacuum between people's ears, so everyone you work with will be smart in some way or another.
Scientists actually recognize and appreciate the fact that You Make Things Work. (egad!)
Hiring authorities often equally happy with a degree in their science, some other science, technology, or engineering.
Stress level can be significantly lower in some cases (like mine).

All true. I worked IT in a research consortium for two years until the (non-technical) execs stole the money (seriously- they actually stole it and ran off) and the place closed down.

But the environment was great and for those of us who are total nerds for new technology, it was awesome. These folks were working on stuff that the rest of the world wouldn't see for 10 years.

Re:SciOps

[EvilBudMan]

--Cons:
You'll never hear anyone talking about crazy dot-edu or dot-org pay. ;)--

How exactly is this a con? Most of the talk about crazy pay, we'll was just crazy.

--The survival of your job depends in part on survival of their funding.--

This one is definitely something to think about but the rest of your cons seem like pros to me.

Re:SciOps

[jcluthe]

I agree with this post. I am not working on telescopes, but I managed to parlay an IT job into a more specific security related job. The security job is not what is important, the important part is that everything is going digital, everything is run by a server of some sort. And sometimes the IT group is not skilled enough for the specific task. Now I am the only IT guy in an organization that is purely security related. I know everything about every PCs and server we have control of, and the chumps in IT that I used to work with now have to maintain my corporate PC. Like shag said, make your knowledge work for you, just sayin'.

Re:SciOps

[Anonymous Coward]

I was a programmer for 8 years, making relative bank (~100K), but constantly felt like it was leeching away my soul. The problem is that I love programming, just not for ungrateful users and incompetent managers. I started taking classes to prepare for a graduate bioinformatics degree. My undergraduate record was good but not great, but I kicked ass in the science classes I took post graduate. Now I'm at UNC and loving it. The problems in genetics are fascinating, and it's eye-opening to see how needed people like you and I are in this field. The amount of data generated by new technologies like Illumina sequencing is staggering. The scientists have great ideas for what to do with it, but they're incapable. I, on the other hand, love these kinds of problems, and I'm quickly learning the science behind it. If you have any interest at all in science, I highly recommend this route. The money right now is crappy (I make $26K and my tuition is covered), but I've discovered that I don't really need that much to live on. And $26K goes far in North Carolina. I just bought a new car, and I share a nice apartment with my girlfriend. As a postdoc, I'll make closer to $40-50K, and after that who knows. Bioinformatics PhDs in industry make bank, academics make less but have more flexibility and the promise of tenure.

Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[assemblerex]

How is it that our field is the only one where the older you get, the more worthless you are perceived as being?
Everyone remembers an encounter with an old mainframe or similar tech guy showing up to install a T1 line or similar.
all those years and he winds up punching wires for the last four years to make it to retirement.

I'd rather cross the street to another career and enjoy the respect and admiration of my peers than endure the snickering of
freshly minted paper certified system admins behind my back.

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[Talisman]

Though I've heard of this phenomenon, and am sure it is true in certain niches of the IT world (such as game coders), I've never seen it in person.

Personally, I *love* seeing the old guy come on the job site, because he'll probably know every little quirk there is to know about the system he's working on, since he's been at it for the last 25 years.

We had to deal with an Alcatel IP phone build-out on a site, and it was new technology at the time, and our saving grace was Bob. Overweight to the point where the impolite would call him fat, gray bearded, thick glasses, unfailingly calm, and was the only person we could find on the planet who knew how to make this system work, and the rest of us weren't IT slouches. Or Sande, the 60-something tech who saved one of our hotels from a complete phone outage, twice, as he was the only person in the city who knew how to work on a Hitachi HCX-5000.

The idea that old guys are of limited value in the IT industry is patently false. You can have the college grads, I'll take the grampas.

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[carolfromoz]

I'm hoping this will change. Yes IT has been perceived as a young person's game but that is just going to have to change as more of us stick around and resist going into management. One of the things I've always really liked about IT is that it's about getting the job done - and as it stands people will accept just about anyone when something needs to be done.

I should know. As a female techie I've endured enough surprised looks over the years, but I've never been shown the door. The best one was when I turned up at a navy base 7 months pregnant to sort something out with a server, and had to ask the guy to move the rack (it was on wheels) because I couldn't fit behind it!

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[d'baba]

Do you know what they do to an engineer when they reach 40?
They take him out and shoot him.
- (joke from Primer)

I was in the computer business (hardware and software) for 30 years until I was 50ish and then came the .com bust. Since then I've: been a waiter, been a cook, moved to the Nevada desert for a warehouse job, moved back to CA because Nevada and the warehouse sucked, couch surfed for a couple years and now I count kibble at a pet supply warehouse.

The effect is real.

When I was laid off in 2001 my manager and the HR people were soooo distraught. The HR drone that did my exit interview cried... (shades of glenn beck) ... until we got to signing the "No I won't sue you for age discrimination" form and I happened to mention that it would take more than 2 guys with white hair (the CEO and VP of Marketing) to save them if somebody really wanted to sue. No more tears.

Think pro sports & the effect is the same. Only the stars (who may or may not be worth the money) remain until they fall apart and can't play anymore.

---
Msot plopee hvae the abilit abiitly to raed ttaol gragabe. The mian sratem mdiea pvreos tihs dlaiy.

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[Anonymous Coward]

In reality, the guy in the back who does ABAP on the old R3 system might be around, but systems change and IT jobs change, and older people who are not able to understand this get punted for people who can. If someone were a sysadmin and took 3-4 years off, they are in essence dinosaurs and end up starting back at entry level. Why? Every production OS has moved forward a notch. A good Windows 2003 admin is useless on Windows 2008 or Windows 2008 R2 unless they get training on it. Same as someone who was a pro at SunOS 4.1.x, now has to run Solaris 10. Essentially they are starting from scratch. So, even if someone had 10+ years of experience, if they have a recent gap in their resume, I'll take someone fresh from college mill who has actually used a recent OS over a fossil without that expertise. They can jaw all they want about the days of Windows 2000, AIX 4, Slackware 4 and the Halloween release of RedHat, but that stuff has no relevance in current production settings. I'd rather have someone who knows the stuff in use today.

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is it that our field is the only one where the older you get, the more worthless you are perceived as being?

IMHO, this will change once the generations that grew up with computers start getting older and graying...

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[marquis111]

That's where being older can be either a curse or a benefit. If you can age but still retain the ability and desire to learn new things, you have the potential of possessing several assets newer workers don't have:
1) A sense of perspective. This problem may be bad, but you've likely seen worse.
2) More emotional maturity. The ability to deal with non-IT types and not lose your cool is invaluable.
3) Deeper troubleshooting senses. Familiar or not, if the device's optical drive doesn't work, you're not likely going to shout "Defrag!".
4) A grasp of the way computer systems in general work. Bits are bits. Directory systems are directory systems. Permissions are permissions. The implementations change, but if you're around long enough, you will have seen something like it before.
5) You've learned that specializing is great for the short term, but if you want to keep it up, that can be a real bear. A CCIE from 1999 won't still be a CCIE in 2009 unless they've been studying for the last decade. But that 1999 CCIE is likely a very good networking tech.

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who says you have to stop learning new things as you get older? Isn't that what makes IT exciting, the chance to do things better/faster/easier as new tools and technologies come along?

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[bpechter]

Having been in IT for 25 years now and looking a lot like the description... Thank you 8-).

The main thing is there are good techies and bad techies. A lot of folks jumped for the high salary without having the skill set needed to troubleshoot or communicate effectively.

I came to IT after a couple of years in Journalism and PR. I retrained after a period of unemployment on my dime becoming an electronics tech and working through from Field Service on minicomputers to Minicomputer Hardware Instructor to Unix Admin and Sys Admin trainer.

The problem is that in the old days the folks that ran IT came up the line from operator to systems programmer/administrator/manager to IT operations head and CIO.

Now the folks running stuff often don't have the technical background and experience or the will to fight the corporate battles with the bean counters who demand instant quick fixes and ROI before the implementation is complete.

Give me an old pre-pc computer type who understands how an ALU works or how software paging and swapping work and I think I've got a better chance of getting something fixed.

There are few professionals out there who can read a crash dump or run with a debugger on an app or even run tcpdump/wireshark and lots of "I reboot and reload the app and server completely" to try to get it up.

--another old greybeard.

>>> B DBA0

Re:Getting old in IT is the kiss of death.

[imakemusic]

How is it that our field is the only one where the older you get, the more worthless you are perceived as being?

It's the same with all the glamorous professions - popstars, pornstars, actors...

Just have a break.

[nickgrieve]

After 10 years in IT I quit and went to Culinary School. I am now back in IT. Cooking for a job sucks. Mornings at your own pace, checking emails with a coffee and a pastry is not that bad. Just take some time off IT, and do something totally not IT.

I scaled back from working all hours in a full on job for a film and TV production studio, everything was mission critical...

Now I am a senior technician in a small town outfit, my skills from past life in a high pressure bleeding edge job help me every day. You'd be surprised at how fulfilling just dropping back a peg or two can be.

If you still want work in 2 years

[CranberryKing]

Better become a blacksmith. All this technology crap will be useless.

In some ways I'm going thru brain death

[ptmartin01]

But that's because IT's advances are now only theory in relation to what I do. My job no longer requires that I keep up with technology and so i keep up only in areas that are enjoyable. I don't code, anything at all.

But the time I have left over I can spend with many many things that have become important - kids, games, spouse. The money was an issue for the first couple of years.

If I had to do it over again, though, I would have trained as a respiratory therapist just so I could be in a field that is still developing while working a job that lets me go home at the end of the day.

Am I the only one left who thinks his pay is okay?

[syousef]

This isn't the easiest job in the world, and there have been some unfortunate changes of late but salary isn't one of them. I'm making a decent living in IT. I'm not going to get rich soon, but my wife doesn't have to work and can raise our 1 year old properly for a couple of years (and the next child that comes along too if nothing goes south). My hours aren't great but they aren't lousy either, and I get a day a month off and only work about 1 weekend in 10. Hardest thing about my job is the shift work - no overnight shifts but getting up early one week then working late the next takes it out of you. Second hardest part is facing the fact that I'll be working for another 25-35 years with lots of accrued leave but few actual breaks taken .... well unless I get ill or die (which is quite possible). But that'd be true in any profession.

I'll have my say on this

[cyberzephyr]

I used to work for Hewlett Packard, Dell, Compaq and Sony in Rancho Bernardo. I have 2 BA's, 1 in computer science and 1 in Restaurant cooking and management.
    Guess which on is going after me in this f-d up economic enviroment?

Do you like to eat?

Got out

[Anonymous Coward]

Went back to school, got a BSME, married another BSME, designed circuits and ran a MEMS lab while putting her through her masters and phd.
Now we both work at WeBuildAirplanes in a rainy washington city, and the only machines I have root on are the ones at home.

Much better money, better benefits, as much stability as you can get in this company, and I still have time for my favorite hobby of collecting skills/

From IT Tech to Slot Tech

[J-Rod_Brown]

I went from IT to working on slot machines... The switch wasn't that difficult as far as troubleshooting, deployment, and repair but its a different world. Instead of cube farms, you get to work on a small army of money making machines. One of the most interesting facets of the job is the customers. They are so varied and odd ball that its a riot. Especially when people think they can scam you out of some money saying a game cheated them on this or that. Its not a huge career move but I love the environment I work in. It is much less stress and you get to walk around a lot and meet many interesting people with many interesting stories. Good luck with the economy in some states, though. Most of the Indian casinos are holding up alright while other Class III facilities (especially Vegas/Lake Tahoe) are struggling (it all has to do with the customer base...).

Left 2 years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

I was in systems engineering job, and left the field 2 years ago for medical research.

Took a 50% pay cut - and haven't regretted it once. In fact, I always thought I was underpaid in engineering compared to the mid-career contractors who milked the system and were HORRIBLE. In research, my only thought has been, "And I get paid for this!??!".

Perks are 4+ weeks of vacation, no more worrying about timecharging, working with people who are much more passionate - and waaaay more technical creativity. I've done more engineering in the past year than I did in my previous "engineering" job. In research, you're doing things that people haven't done before. It's not just learning the "process" and meeting your customer requirements.

Whatever your passion, jump off and do it. It was scary as hell at the time - but best decision I've ever made. What good is extra money if you're spending it to prop up a miserable life? And the crazy thing is that I have way more vacation time, but I enjoy work so much, I hardly ever use it.

Go for it, you'll never look back.

I stayed in IT, but moved WAY down the food chain.

[toygeek]

I worked at a small web hosting firm for 9 years. I started out doing part time tech support. When I had been there 9 years, 2 new owners later, and my colleagues had been fired, and I was the only guy handling 150 web/dns/db/mail servers, and the bulk of tech support, being on call 24/7/365 for 2+ years, and dealing with rude customers I had enough. I hung in there for a while though, but then the new jackass owners messed with my pay and started micromanaging me. *THAT* was the last straw.

I now work as a mobile computer tech helping grandmas and business owners who don't know anything about computers. Guess what? I'm on the road all the time, seeing the world from a windshield instead of a webcam. People are happy to see me (I'm fixing their broken bookmarks, and their printer/scanner/fax, they need me!) and I rarely am the same place twice in a week.

How did I handle the change? Well, I admit, I was forced into it a bit. I quit the server admin job rather abruptly and hadn't planned things out. The mobile tech job was a compromise between getting to work in the field I love and making enough money to pay rent.

I had to move to a much, much smaller home. I went from a 3bdr 2ba condo with a 2 car garage to a 3bdr 2ba apartment with no storage at all. I had to find a new home for my dog. I had to get rid of 2/3 of my belongings. I had to downsize and simplify in ways I never imagined.

The result? I have far more free time to do things that are more important to me than working. I am able to work on my own personality instead of web servers. I actually started writing (fiction) again. I even *gasp* learned to cross stitch (its fun, like making a picture one pixel at a time.)

I went from making $55k/yr to $30k/yr, and it has not been easy. But, its been worth it.

YMMV, standard disclaimers apply.

Office Space - The Topic!

[Anonymous Coward]

In this thread, the horrible realities of IT work after 1995.

I quit IT two years ago and went into teaching.

[Anonymous Coward]

I had been in IT for about 10 years and had had enough. Fortunately I had a master's degree so I was able to get a job teaching at a community college. It's definitely a big pay cut compared to my old IT job, but it's more enjoyable and less stressful. I would never go back to IT. You have to find something you enjoy doing. Life's too short to be spent slaving away in a cubicle for a group of total bastards in a job you hate.

Just find something else.

[Anonymous Coward]

I originally left IT in 2003 to go into Retail Management which lasted two years, then landed me back into IT. In that time I was able to finish my bachelors and master degree and make a decent living now. I went from Microsoft based solutions to completely open source. Which in my opinion has made my job stability situation better, since not many people can work with a complete CLI environment. I help my company run complex data center solutions, and even though the hours suck and not getting a raise for the last three years really blows. I have decided to get another Master degree in health care management and just say so long IT. The whole reason I got into IT was because of the tech toys and because I really enjoy innovating new solutions. But as you said, the disrespect and the pay cuts are getting a little bit much, I went from 85k a year to 23k for the same job, then back to 60k after 6 years, what type of career does that crap. I made 50k in retail management, and I only worked 45 hours a week. My advise to you is just find something you enjoy and don't look back..., don't pull the same mistake I made and try to return, it not worth it, you can make more with another career and not end up spending 20% of your income trying to stay on top of your skills. Companies just expect too much, and no compensation for it.

I have about 8yrs in IT, about 4 as an SE, and 1

[Desmoden]

.5 in Technical Marketing. And if I can survive the politics I think I've found my spot. It's fun always planing with the bleeding edge stuff. I LOVED being an SE (Sales/System Engineer) but life points you in funny directions.

What I've found is there are a TON of "second tier" careers that are kind of like dual-classing in D&D, where you have to be a 8th level unix sysadmin || 10th level Windows admin || xth level Engineer of Foo, and then a 2nd level SE, and then you can apply for 1st level technical marketing engineer or something like that :)

As I said, there are lots of cool options after IT. And all of them are better than getting paged at 2am

Unions/trades

[4eak]

I went from being a network administrator of a small school district (7 schools, 1000 to 1500 computers, just me) to working as a union cable installer.
The good: I work for a small family company. I get to work in a somewhat informal environment with a group of likeable misfits and some people who are just darn good. I show up and work hard and smart (as possible), and I go home feeling like I earned my pay and 'helped out the team.' I take almost none of it home with me. I am off work by 3:30-4:00. We change jobsites sometimes once and sometimes 60 times a year, I find the variety stimulating. YMMV The pay is quite decent, even though we communications guys are lower paid than the union electricians. The work is physical, sometimes you just have to crawl under that frat-house with the cable tied to your belt loop, or something. The plus side of this is how much easier it is to stay reasonably fit. Climbing up and down a ladder all day as well as carrying ladders and materials around can be pretty good exercise. Medical HMO-Style, Dental, Vision.
The bad: Getting to work at 6 to 7 in the morning can be tough until you adjust to it. Sometimes you have to do something downright disgusting or even a little dangerous, but at least these things usually make for good stories. If there isn't enough work to go around, you can be laid off by your employer and in tough times, it can be a while before you get sent to another job. Leading me to the unions. Again, YMMV. I'm told ours is one of the better trade unions to be in, but we have: No paid leave of any kind. You don't work, you don't get paid, and if you're out of work for long enough, your benefits are no longer paid for. I also just get the general impression that Union administrations tend toward barrel-assed, protect-my-cushy-desk-job, pettily corrupt kinds of entities. Not saying they all are, but there's a smell of it about. A great deal depends on which Union, and likely, which Local. Also, most people have to go through an apprenticeship that can last from 3 years (Communication installer) to 5 years (Inside Wireman (Electrician)). During your apprenticeship you will make more like $14 to $20 an hour (depending on the trade, some probably even make more!), instead of the Journeyman rate of around $28 to $45-50 and up.
My verdict: I like my job now. It is a tonic after coming from a fairly hectic and stressful job. But I am in my thirties now. I have very little desire to still be working this hard with my body when I am in my fifties. In the end I think it's better to be paid for your smarts, so you can save your body for the fun stuff. myzerotwo

I jumped ship about six years ago..

[lz2pt]

Long, tedious and boring story cut short, one day I woke up and decided that I no longer enjoyed working in the IT sector.
(after about 20 years of putting up with the various levels of brain death involved in supporting both the machines and their (ab)users..), so jumped.

I'd gotten so sick of the whole game that after I quit my last full time IT job, swore I'd never do it again, and it was almost a year before I touched a computer of any sorts again, and about two before I went back online.

First couple of years readjusting to the (major) cut in salary were pretty nasty, saving grace was that I owned my house outright and had no outstanding debts, even so , financially were tight at times but things have sort of stabilised. Currently working for a charity as a sort of Über-handyman (plumbing,painting,electronics and hardware repair, NC machine programming etc etc - the etc etc including IT work...but for reasons explained below),

To make ends meet, I've been doing things like plumbing, woodwork (joinery mostly), painting and decorating etc, it sort of helped that I'd a family who were involved in these trades so I'd grown up knowing how to do most of it., and honestly, I've been as happy as a member of the genus sus in coprophilous materia..

A cautionary note though, once it is known that you actually know anything about IT in whatever field you jump to, be prepared for what usually happens next. I'm slowly getting dragged back into IT in my current job at the charity, mostly through the electronics related work I'm doing for them (my 'field' before I jumped to the computer/network admin side of things), but also through what I'm seeing as seriously screwed up Network/computer installations within the charity I work for (and others) which they're paying people good money to 'administer' on their behalf.

Even though you swear blind at the start that you'll never do any IT work again, it *will* find you..in my case, I don't mind as it's for a reasonable cause (and I really hate seeing people who've got Noddy MCxxxx and CCxxx bits of paper pretending to know what they're doing and taking the piss in this manner, especially with a charity).

So, be prepared for a drop in living standards based on monies etc, I can't tell you if you'll be any happier. I am, I actually sleep more than a couple of hours a night now (after years of 18-20 hour days, six days a week) and I no longer see reams of 'C' code in my bloody dreams (and I praise the flying spaghetti monster for that, as I do so hate 'C' ) but that's just me, YMMV.

One bit of advice that I can give you from my experiences jumping ship. I can't stress this enough, if you do go through with it, *plan* your exit, know what else you *can* do, and see if you could survive/make a living doing whatever you choose. Plan your exit, don't just jump ship the way I did before you have something else sorted out to go to first.. This lack of forward planning was my only mistake/regret, understandable at the time, as I was seriously pissed off and wasn't quite thinking straight, but this lack of planning probably caused me the most grief the first couple of years.

Like at least one other poster has said, in general it'll help if you have a degree of some sort as well.

and finally if you do jump, then good luck, and hope it works out for you.

Applying economics to job hunting

[adamkennedy]

I hear people complaining about their shitty IT conditions, and I really do sympathise.

I used to be in a similar situation, before I learned a bit more about Economics and applied it to job hunting.

Supply and Demand alone suggest jobs in places like the Games industry (to which most male gamers under the age of about 25 aspire) will be horrible. The massive supply of labour will be chewed up and spat out by the fickle industry, paid low money and treated like crap.

Likewise, many people in IT are on the cost side of the ledger, where a company is always going to be seeking for reductions in cost and increases in efficiency.

My suggestion? Find an industry which is old (and thus has well established work principles), deeply unsexy, and (if you can) look for jobs on the income side of the ledger. And then be the guy that steps up to take responsibility for safe-guarding that income, the guy that can step up and speak truth to power and be taken seriously because it's your job to make sure that $100m, or $1b, or $10b revenue stream never ever ever stops.

In my case, I discovered the logistics industry and found a programming job at the largest company in my country maintaining the codebase responsible for 80% of their sales (and climbing).

Good money, normal 9-5 hours, prohibited from doing overtime, a proper infra team to manage the hardware, a proper ops team to deploy and run our software, and a reasonable ability to requisition just about anything we need, because The Spice Must Flow.

I would imagine that similar jobs to mine exist in all kinds of places that sound really boring, places like power companies and garbage recycling and anywhere else that needs a lot of IT but will never be mentioned on the front page of slashdot.

Re:Applying economics to job hunting

[foniksonik]

The key point here and for any job where you'd like to be treated well... "Get on the Income side of the business".

If you're on the Income side, you deal with people who are moving up, looking for ways to increase revenue, etc. and will appreciate you. If you're on the Cost side you deal with people running in place trying to cut corners, etc.

If you succeed on the Income side - you get a bonus. If you succeed on the Cost side - you get a high five at best ("We're trying to save money here, not spend it on bonuses!").

So whatever job you go looking for, be a part of the business.... not the housekeeping. Housekeepers have always been treated as servants, even if well treated servants.

Re:Applying economics to job hunting

[Overzeetop]

IT worker wasn't cutting it, so...you became a manager.

I'm not being sarcastic...this is usually the way out of the dead end job market for the lucky few who can/will find a parallel career. It takes a certain kind of personality to succeed, though.

Working maintenance at an airport!

[((hristopher _-*-_-*]

I feel more manly, and simple things appeal more now. Although that might have something to do with being only able to afford simple things. Oh well.

In a similar, but stranger situation...

[Talisman]

I no longer love IT work. I've been at it for 14 years now, and the shine is definitely off the apple. That being said, I don't hate it. It's not fulfilling anymore, but I don't dread going to work, either.

My current job allows me to travel a minimum of 8 months per year, often 10 or more, with long stretches at the work site, so it really is enjoyable travel, not the land-getjobdone-boardplane-flytonextjobsite travel that makes for a miserable experience versus a very enjoyable one.

So while I love the framework my job is in, I no longer love the job itself. It's a peculiar place to be, since it's easy to leave miserable situations, but much harder to leave pretty good situations, even though the next stop might be fantastic.

Become a barber

[tomstorey]

I went for a haircut yesterday, this particular barber charges $25/cut. While I was waiting 3 people had their hair cut (thats including of the person already in the chair when I walked in), and another 2 people came in to be served after me. Thats $150 for maybe 1.5 hours work? Moral: become a barber. Seems to be pretty good money, and despite this "financial downturn" etc peoples hair still grows and needs to be cut...

Re:Become a barber

[thatkid_2002]

I noticed the same thing! I wonder if Google can confirm that it really is good money... +1 to tomstorey
You would have competition from older established barbers though. People go out of their way to go to the barber that they know and trust best.

Re:Become a barber

[TheLink]

> Moral: become a barber

Or open a barber shop.

Will be a bit scary at the start since people tend to avoid new barbers - few want a crap haircut even if it's cheap. So may have to do some marketing and promo.

IT is a big wide world

[carolfromoz]

Is it possible that what you need is not actually to leave IT entirely, but to do something different in IT? After 15 years in IT, and having taken some time off for my second baby, I thought I was over it, but then I got into a whole new technical area that excited me again. I learnt lots of new skills, brushed up my CV, moved from internal IT staff to a consultancy firm. I'm now 3 years down the line from that time and I'm loving being a techie more than ever. I've had friends who've left IT and eventually regretted it.

Advice??

[Panaflex]

Firstly, maybe it's just a crap job? Especially in the smaller cities, you don't see a lot of quality job environment for IT folks. Also, the downturn in the economy quickly sours employee moral - it could just be a phase.

My suggestion, if you really love IT, then find a great job working for people you actually like. Don't be afraid to look outside the box - lots of IT jobs in many different industries. The cushy IT jobs are typically in your wealthier industries such as telecom, some medical, banks and the like. Avoid the highly cyclical industries such as manufacturing, retail and most consumer service companies. Development, entertainment and consulting are tough work - but often rewarding as well. Of course, these are pretty loose suggestions, and there are exceptions for every rule. I loved working in retail, hated telecom.

Whatever you do... DO NOT be afraid. Take your time and really find your place, as you don't want to end up moving in 5 years yet again. Interview to see if you like the PEOPLE first, then consider the work, and lastly if you like the pay. Don't be afraid to quietly start hunting, you'll feel better and have some hope.

If you really want to move out of IT, then start meeting people in the field you want to be in. Find out what industry is looking for, jump onto the industry forums and figure out the problems and solutions available. If you're going to start a business, consider doing some market research, meet the local SBA business silverheads and get a feel for what happens locally, which businesses survive the startup and WHY.

You've got a paying job right now - use this time to get to know what you really want to do, research the hell out of it, and know what you're up against. Have a plan, check it over with someone who knows. It's better to spend a few bucks getting advice, than to squander your time (and savings) getting into something much harder than you anticipated.

Re:Advice??

[Anonymous Coward]

The cushy IT jobs are typically in your wealthier industries such as telecom

Telecom??? You've obviously never worked in telecom.

Re:Advice??

[Panaflex]

Actually I have worked at THREE different companies in telecom... compared to manufacturing and retail they are CUSHY AS HELL, LOL...

IT - bus drving - School teacher

[zedsonata]

I was in the IT industry for more than 6 years from when I left high school. I also became sick of the crap involved with the customers within that field of work so I decided to go back to uni to become a teacher. While I was at uni I also trained to become a bus driver (this only took 2 weeks) and was employed straight away as a city bus driver part time. During my 4 years at uni I spent 3 years as a bus driver, but in my last year of uni I had to spend much more time on my course work, so I left bus driving and retrained over my uni break to become a carer of disabled people. This job lasted the whole year I was at uni and I was promoted from a carer to an activities co-ordinator in that time over people who had been carers for 15+ years. I think IT peoples reasoning and logic skills plus the fact that on average we are smarter than the average worker enables us to move very easily in to 'lower' jobs. I found that bus driving and my work with the disabled was extremely enjoyable, and the pay while a bit less than working in IT was very easy to live off, even though I was only a part time worker. Now I am a teacher I have spent 1 year teaching primary school in Australia, and now I have moved to South Korea, home of the stupidly fast internet speeds that I could only ever dream about, and I'm teaching English here. I'll be going back to Australia at the end of this year and continuing to teach in a government primary school. The kids in Australia and Korea love me because I will play computer games with them, also I am teaching them the logic and reasoning skills that most of us IT people (or ex IT people) take for granted so my kids often get test scores noticeably higher than other classes. I really think that moving to the three other jobs, 1 un-skilled, 1 semi-skilled, and finally the last one skilled, has been the greatest thing I have ever done in my life and I would recommend any IT person who is thinking of getting out to just do it! As I said, IT people bring a unique set of skills to any job and no matter what the job I think you will find your self getting promoted much quicker than the average person. 6 years ago if you had of told me I was going to drive buses, look after disabled people, and then become a teacher, I would have thought you where crazy! Today my life is much richer for the interesting people (and not angry smegg heads who just want me to fix their stupid computer NOW) I have met and the new skills that I never thought I could possibly learn.

Why not Farming itself?

[blue_teeth]

I don't know how competitive / tough /expensive is farming in the USA. I've been planning for this i.e., the IT schit to hit the fan. For me, farming means away from city. Healthy & no nonsense life. Not much money tho. People still eat right?

Re:Why not Farming itself?

[rohan972]

I don't know how competitive / tough /expensive is farming in the USA. I've been planning for this i.e., the IT schit to hit the fan. For me, farming means away from city. Healthy & no nonsense life. Not much money tho. People still eat right?

They still eat, but not necessarily pay enough for food to make it worth your while growing it. If you do this, set it up with no debt. If you can feed yourself and have no debt, you don't need to make much money to survive. Also do not assume that farming is an occupation for the clueless. Study the science of whatever you plan to do.

It is the best lifestyle I've had though, although I'm not doing it at the moment. The freedom of having that space has to be experienced to be believed. Want to do your target practice in your backyard? No problem. Want to do nearly anything? Who's going to know?

Re:Why not Farming itself?

[Stupid Crunt]

It's hard work. I spent two weeks working on a sheep farm. 12 hour days, very physical work. Not to mention living in a state of constant sexual exhaustion.

Re:Why not Farming itself?

[intheshelter]

Sexual exhaustion? . . . . Were you pitching or catching?

Re:Why not Farming itself?

[Lunzo]

Now that's what I call job satisfaction!

P.S. Are you from New Zealand?

Back to school myself, but it's not easy

[Knutsi]

I've started studying again after about five years of IT work. Its been a mixed experience, especially the financial side of it, and also to marshal the motivation to keep going at times. I'm on a study project that will take me seven years total, but once done I will (hopefully) have a secure high income job as a medical doctor.

So, I'm moving away from IT to deal MORE with people. I found the most enjoyable part of my old job to be working with the users of the projects we implemented, and especially holding courses and design workshops.

As for dealing with the financial side of going back to school - this is hard. Quite simply hard. But also surprisingly rewarding at times as well. I now find I'm proud I can survive on much less, and also not having access to all the latest kit made me aware of how addictive it can be to buy things. It's almost as if it provides a kind of escapism, always buying a new gadget. Now cannot, and it's okay.

The biggest problem I feel though, is that I can no longer keep up with my girlfriends lifestyle. Her life is more like my old, with more travel, going out with people and buying things. Mine is locked to my studies, and I cannot afford expensive pastimes like going out for dinner allot.

At the same time, to immerse myself in the science courses I'm currently taking can be very rewarding, and its good to have a project in life with a definite goal down the line to work towards.

But have no illusion this is easy - a solid job you know well with a high income is very very comfortable. But sometimes you have to move out of your comfort zone to progress I guess. I'm mostly happy to be away from IT.

I bought a bar

[Derring]

Seven years ago I dropped out of IT and bought a bar (in NZ). There's a long story in there somewhere (that began in Philly), but in the end it's worked out better for me. I'm like most IT folks I think, in that if I'm absorbed in my work in front of a computer, I have no desire to leave, even if there is a great big party somewhere or something that involves human interaction. Bar work gets you out there and it sure as hell beats sitting in a cubicle.

Probably the best thing about the switch is that bar transactions have a beginning and an end. You want a bourbon and coke? Okay, here's your drink, thanks for the money. If they want another drink, it's a new transaction. People don't come back with a drink and say, "you know, this is just great, and what would make it even better is if it had round ice cubes instead of square ones - no, let's make that two square ones and three round ones, and with more synergy." That drove me nuts as a coder.

That being said, I still developed my own touchscreen till system and back-end tools for the bar. And I've got a couple of hobby game dev projects on the side. It's in my blood, I can't get away from it and I really don't want to. It's a nice balance to earn a buck from a social job, and then have a coding hobby.

Although I think I'm at the end of this run and will likely sell the bar within the next year. That's probably my entrepreneurial side that feels that seven years is too long to be doing the same thing. Not too sure what's next, but I've been thinking about bees lately...

Re:I bought a bar

[Anonymous Coward]

That's what I liked about the mall electronics sales job I had between IT jobs: lots of satisfying closure. I had some repeat customers and that was cool, but I didn't have to develop a damn relationship with a bunch of high-maintenance people, like I do now in a tech support department. It was just a series of usually-pleasant one-hour stands, and if I got paired with a bad customer, there'd be another one coming along later, and maybe that one would be cute, laugh at my jokes, and otherwise distract my attention from the fact that I was still single and working in a mall.

IT is the leafblowing of technical jobs

[Anonymous Coward]

All you're doing is making sure the computers are working.

Re:Have clients that see the value of your service

[Anonymous Coward]

and

are your friends - meet them, use them, enjoy them - who knows, someone might actually read your posts then.

US Army

[MindTree]

I joined the US Army as an Infantryman. Can't get much farther away from IT than that. I wasn't trying to move away from IT, it was response to my country at war and the subsequent loss of a friend to insurgent action in Iraq that made my decision for me.

I obviously work with people in an entirely different way than I did in IT. For the record, I was a software engineer with IBM in Pittsburgh on the Websphere Competency Center team. I loved my job and still can't imagine a better group of co-workers and business partners to work with. Maybe I'll get back to tech after my time in the Army, maybe I won't.

In the Army I'm currently a 240B medium machine gun team leader. My age (29 when I joined the Army) and experience (good civilian job, college) earned me a little more flexibility in promotions, but no more respect with my peers. The average age in my company is approximately 21. It's been an uphill battle to compete physically, but it's a challenge I've found fascinating.

As for the money, better make sure you're in a good position before making a move like this. Thanks to my 7 years at IBM, I was, but it would be a nightmare to try to live off lower enlisted salary when you're used to much more.

My previous experience did land me one unfortunate headache, the CO/1SG found out that I was "good with computers" and stuck me in company operations for 10 months. Try to avoid talking about your previous IT experience if you go this route.

Leaving IT?

[JWSmythe]

    I didn't leave IT. IT left me.

    I went from being on top of my game, running a huge network, to drifting through a few pathetic jobs, and now I'm finishing up my 5th month of unemployment. Resumes have been flying out the door, targeted to places I'm perfectly qualified for. The few callbacks I've had were pathetic. "Sorry, we took someone for 10% of what you wanted". "Sorry, you're overqualified.", and my favorite has been headhunters asking me to lie about my credentials. "Can you add a few more certifications on there?", "Can you add a part about your years of ___ administration?" No, I won't lie.

    So I'm doing what I know. IT was a lot of fun. I really (REALLY) enjoyed it. The closest I've gotten to IT in the last year has been maintaining a half ass network, and helping people with their desktops. {sigh}

    For the last 5 months, I've been helping people. In exchange, they give me food, a place to live, and other necessities that I may need (hey can you fill my gas tank). My part of that has been doing auto repairs, home repairs and upgrades, etc, etc. I like working on cars, so that's been good. Since I'm not ASE certified, and can't show my years of working in a "shop", I'm not considered for even changing oil. It's ok, my resume and description of the auto work I've done over the years is in the same stack with kids right out of high school, except the kids are more likely to get the job because the highly qualified IT guy is going to bail as soon as the economy picks up. {sigh} I'm amazed at how many running toilets I've fixed, and other assorted "skilled labor" jobs, yet I can't get steady work in any of them due to lack of experience.

    I've applied for every job that I could possibly do. Loading docks? Sure. Short order cook? Sure. Fast food burger flipper? Sure. Nope, nada.

    When helping people runs out, which I'm sure it will since everyone's broke these days, I may have to turn to more exotic work. Hit man? Sure. Bank robber? Sure. Drug runner? Sure. Cult leader? Now we're talking. We'll see how desperate times get.

    Right now, my advice to anyone is, don't bail on your career, until it bails on you. Right now, the odds are it'll happen soon enough, and you too will be exploring the wonderful world of desperation.

Lose the boss

[arielsom]

I think there are a lot of things being mixed up here. My job in IT sucked. So I left and am now a freelancer doing web related stuff, and working as a teacher, also on IT related subjects. My point: it's having a boss that sucks, not the actual IT. When I come in from the outside and I'm being paid big bucks for it, I get respect that I wouldn't if I were a wage slave. The reason they treat salespeople better is that they know how to market themselves, whereas there is this persistent image of IT people as Rainman types who you can kick around. Unions would help, but just leaving works too. In France we call this "voting with your feet".

Re:Lose the boss

[Anonymous Coward]

Voting with your feet? I thought france voted by having the whole country strike? :)

Re:Lose the boss

[Anonymous Coward]

I tend to agree - people don't leave bad jobs, they leave bad managers.

I guess there's a lot of bad management in IT? Check.

As a rot in the IT field ... I got sickened ...

[freaker_TuC]

I've been working for over 15 years with computers; whereof almost 12 years straight in the company which my business partner and me created before. Somewhere trust has broken, I've been working for over 16hr/day mostly and got paid (almost) nothing. I've tried to launch a lot of projects (wouldn't lie if I'd say a dozen of them) to be able to get possibilities to be paid but, every new idea got rejected; even when I had a proof-of-concept ready and running ...

I was nothing better for him than a webdesigner, programmer and server/security maintainer ONLY when I was needed. My extra professions around programming barely got touched. Needless to say; I resigned from this company where I felt to be part of it and currently I'm searching for a new job. Basically my life got wasted for over almost 12 years .. for what? .. nothing!

Do I feel good with this? I don't know. Dreams are dreams and reality is reality. Still, it's nice to follow your dream and not end up in a nightmare. IT has been sickened over the last 12 years for me, I don't really have ANY motivation left to stay in the field of programming, design and server administration.

Probably I'll program for myself, maybe I'll later pick up a project or two to program for others; but the real motivational drift to program hours and days in a row seems to be sour since I've lost my trust in that one which I worked together with ....

Maybe the best advice I can give; if you are having the same legal system as we got in Belgium; NEVER start a business with TWO; do it either alone or with three or get locked into situations you -so totally- don't want to be in!

Went postal

[HBSorensen]

Hi

I had a brief ( 3-4 years ) where I left the IT business and worked as an independent security contractor.

Now, I'm back in the IT business..

Yeah I left IT for good.

[Anonymous Coward]

I chose to move to a full time position as a welfare recipient.

Gone are the dreams of cars, condos and ties. I now play World of Warcraft nearly full time. Cash in the monthly check and sell a little WoW gold on the side on Ebay.

Fuck this society. I can still pay my cheap rent, eat, and get high-speed internet, plus three bottles of cheap wine a week. No boss anymore. I consider Im not getting such a bad deal.

I kept away a few thousands stashed for an emergency and I can mooch the occasional free meal at my dad's.

We're all gonna die anyway. Im through with trying to be productive in the meantime. Fuck. It. All.

Re:Yeah I left IT for good.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do I send my resume?

error

[Anonymous Coward]

[...] companies and customers that are financially [...] unappreciative. [...] and the money is adequate [...]

I did it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in IT for 10 years and finally feeling the same way you do now I did go completely cold turkey and started over as a floor maintenance technician. The pay was much less than what I was making in IT but I tell you I really loved cleaning carpets stripping and waxing tile and and acid etching concrete etc etc.(seriously it was fun learning a new field) It was back breaking the chemicals made me sick the boss was a dick the people I worked with were complete slackers but you know I didn't once have to answer the phone or try to explain something technical to some stupid user etc etc. I just went in did my work and went home and played WoW. I did it for almost 2 years then got tired of not using my brain anymore and went back into IT. I am no happier now than I was before but the pay helps.

Re:I did it.

[saiha]

Wow, every party of your post sounded terrible. I know jobs are tough to get but if you hate answering stupid users questions I would suggest looking for a job with a small company. A much larger signal to noise ratio in my opinion and if there are a few lusers then you can learn specifically how to deal with them.

Also I read your post in the same voice I read BOFH.

Re:I did it.

[saiha]

s/party/part (sigh)/

Re:I did it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea the problem is I worked in both small companies (locally owned computer store) and large companies(IBM) and they both have lots of downsides(as well as upsides) for IT people. In the small company your overworked and overstressed. In the large company your just a number and the competition is extremely fierce. Don't take my post as being negative I did actually love doing something different than IT for awhile and I do love working in IT. I am not a BOFH in fact when I left the local company to work for IBM the boss offered me anything I wanted to stay, but I was young and wanted the taste of big business, left a rotten taste in my mouth actually I like working in the overworked, overstressed small business MUCH more than working in a fortune 500 company.
The thing with working as a floor technician was that it was COMPLETELY different. It was like learning DOS or a *nix system over again. New, foreign, hard you know a real challenge, but in the end there is only so much to learn reconditioning floors and I got bored real quick. IT has 1 thing that nearly every other business doesn't have, you never run out of new things to learn. Thats why I am back in IT probably for life this time...but you never know :)

Most IT people I know also like to...

[jrozzi]

Cook. Become a chef! It will satisfy your needs.

Stupid title

[sdac]

So stupid title i didnt even read the stupid article

No iteration Planning involved

[Anonymous Coward]

Allow me to ramble. Actually even if you have lot of experience and interest it is becoming impossible to continue in the same company for more that a year or two. Companies have managers and managers don't have planning knowledge. They have not even heard of lean, kanban or scrum or anything like that. Software is released without testing. Managers abuse the technical guys and senior managers turn a blind eye. In some asian countries they make a lot of money by releasing sub-standard software. Even financial software. The funny part is that even big banks buy this software because it is done quickly and cheaply.

What has become of the software industry ? There is just no time to deliver good software. No family life. Worthless managers and people who aspire to be managers shout at and disrespect software developers.

so you're down with cow juice

[Anonymous Coward]

but have you considered road kill?

Take a break first.

[jotaeleemeese]

If you are set on quitting IT save some money and then take a break, if possible arrange with your current employer for a period of unpaid leave, or working part time (I wonder if such things are possible in the good olde US of A)

Then study something you are interested in. You don't need to spend tons of money, get books from the library, attend trade shows and seminars, if you can pay one or two proper courses.

This will give you the chance to clear your head, realize if you really hate IT that much, of if your future is elsewhere.

Something I am personally exploring is to do 3 or 4 different but marginally related things. I will remain on IT but I may do something much simpler instead of administering cutting edge stuff. It seems that Western companies want only people based in Mumbai and Manila (hello guys!) doing any interesting work, so I am happy to do the work that needs a personal touch, even if it pays less.

But at the same time I am learning to be a translator (English speaking people should really get of their asses and learn a second language), a photographer and film maker and dabbling in long term share trading (the bozos managing our money don't really know what they are doing any way, so I can as well trust another economics ignoramus: me) and spread betting (are USians allowed to actually do that? Or is not halal?)

Re:Take a break first.

[NiteShaed]

are USians allowed to actually do that?

Where is this Usia place? Is it nice there? I'm an American myself, but maybe I'd like to visit there someday......

Re:Take a break first.

[Anonymous Coward]

I was able to take a 2-month unpaid leave from my FT job earlier this year. During that time, I worked on a project for another company building a few Android applications, and a server behind the curtain to power them. I had total creative latitude in how to build the app, I worked from home, used tools/equipment of my own choosing, got paid well to do it, and got the project done early and under budget. Working in that way was something I had wanted to do for 15 years. It was great, and I found it almost unbearable to go back to my regular job (government contract work, boring as all hell).

I learned some interesting things doing this: For one, I know I REALLY want to do something like that again. Even though I was working hard the whole time, it was a rejuvenating experience (amazing how working on something creative totally energizes you). For two, a multiplicity of small clients is better than just one (working corp-to-corp with a single external entity is just a full-time job without benefits). Pretty obvious now, but it wasn't to me 3 months ago.

If you can get your employer to agree to such a thing, I highly recommend it. For my part, I'm planning to pay my house off in the next 3-4 months, then I'm going to pursue projects like this exclusively for awhile, while I figure out what I want to do when I grow up.

Leave of absence?

[sandysnowbeard]

I'm 25. After two years in the industry (and about four years of college), I became really disillusioned with computer science. I attempted to quit my job and go hike around Japan. Ultimately, my company gave me a quite generous leave of absence (which I'm still on). I'm still in Japan, now teaching at an elementary school. It's tiring work, but I feel loved and appreciated. My salary is roughly half of what it was before, but my rent has also been halved, I have no car or car insurance, etc., so I live well. As the guy above spoke, you can probably arrange with your company to take a leave of absence. It takes courage, but you can leap blindly and still land on your feet.

Re:Leave of absence?

[that IT girl]

"As the guy above spoke, you can probably arrange with your company to take a leave of absence."

hahahhahahaahaa... sorry, I'm sure some companies might do this, but not the one I work for. They don't value their employees at all, they'd just up and tell me I'm fired. Yeah, I know, I've *got* to find something else.

its like not drinking a beer while being an alcaho

[lord3nd3r]

To put it simply, It is like being an alcoholic that cant drink. I am used to working at data centers, and web hosting companies. As of this moment, I am a server/waiter at a restaurant in my town. (altho I am the IT guy there for all of the staff that has any issues with their machines) The pay is okay, but nothing to what I was getting paid when I was in an actual IT field. anybody need a remote admin? :) I work for cheap :P

I hear you, brother.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think I'm just about ready to up stumps and join the police force. It's something I've often considered during the bad times over the years. But I'm getting the urge even now, during what is a good time for me. Guess I feel I gotta give it a shot before I get too old and start falling apart (even more)..

And I've come to realise that all the fun that I can have at work as a coder, I can still have in my own free time, without all the rubbish that goes on at work.

BUSINESS/IT INTERSECTION

[joapowel]

It seems like the two main unknowns are "What career should I look into?" and "How can I enter?"

A good answer to both of these questions is a graduate business/IS degree. Going back to school will allow you to take classes in areas where you might otherwise not have experience, and it also gives you access to the critical career services offices which will help you get a job in this economy. Additionally, choosing a program that teaches both IT management and business principles will allow you to leverage your existing IT knowledge - meaning better job prospects and a better paycheck.

There are actually relatively few programs that play directly in the intersection of business and IT. One is the Indiana University Kelley School of Business Masters of Science in Information Systems program (Kelley MSIS). Another is Carnegie Mellon's MIS program. At least at the Kelley program, you'll get to take elective MBA classes, placement rates are very high, and faculty are welcoming and personal. Job prospects run the gamut from program management to management consulting.

I personally attended the Kelley MSIS program this past year, and next year I will start for a management consulting firm call Bain & Co.

Moving Away From the IT Field?

[Anonymous Coward]

Heresy!

re: Moving Away From the IT Field?

[dlparker]

I would not recommend my method, but here's what I did (keep in mind that "Life is what happens while we're busy making plans." - unk.):

I got old. As soon as I was eligible to begin receiving benefits from one (relatively meager though not bad considering all company contributions and only 11 years with the company) retirement plan I did it. Once I became eligible for SS I took it. Several years before that (around my 54th or 55th birthday), I went back to my first love: music. I continued my independent IT consultant career, started playing my guitar again, got in some bands, and realized that this is what I should have been doing all along -

RULE #1 - follow your muse

RULE #2 - figure out a way to make money doing it

RULE #3 - pay your bills and be fair to everyone.

RULE #4 - keep following rules 1-3 until they nail the lid shut.

It is hard to compete in the IT field unless

[LukeCrawford]

you are really into it. You are competing with people who are essentially willing to do it for free, either because we are that into it, or because we lack the interpersonal skills to do anything else (sometimes, a little of both)

That said, it sounds like you have a bigger problem with your bosses than with the IT field. there are places in IT that have good bosses, and it makes all the difference in the world. When I was a youngster, I got a bad boss once, and I, too decided I was leaving IT. I took a month off and a road trip to decide what I wanted to do, but when I was done with that, I got another IT job, one with a decent manager.

MBA?

[olesk]

Having spent a little under a decade in IT consulting (AIX/Solaris/Linux) I also ended up wanting to change. Not so much because I was fed up with doing what I was doing (I also felt I made ok money), but because I wanted to try something new. I also wanted to have a career with a higher income potential and more options of taking on quite different roles in the future. I'm a little surprised only two comments suggest what I did: get an MBA!

There are typically two points in your life when employers are less obsessed with only giving you a job that directly fits your background: when you've just graduated from university (where, at least at my university, only about one third accept jobs directly related to their field of study) and upon completing an MBA (where you apply for "MBA positions", many of which do not require any particular background). I really believe the MBA is the hands down best way of performing a radical career change *without* sacrificing salary of career progress - quite on the contrary: on average it will boost both quite nicely. It is also a very intersting study, covering fields I'd always been curious about and it's a great opportunity to meet peolpe from a myriad of backgrounds. The network and friendships I gained from my MBA is really the most valuable thing in the long run (come to think of it, when you're past 30, most of us don't make that many new close friends, but during the MBA I did, which was great).

Trying to get into a ranked MBA, which I really recommend to get some bang for your bucks, might seem quite dauting at first, but in truth it is easier than one might think. There are tons of things you can do to boost your chances to a point where you will be very likely to succeed - most of which Google can dig up for you.

Work on your own start-up

[WindBourne]

It does not matter what in, but make it something that YOU enjoy.

Einstein quote + my take on the problem

[Qbertino]

"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about." - Albert Einstein

Know that your happiness doesn't depend on your salary or wether what you're doing is something you've been doing for 20 years or just 2 months. I'd start cutting it a little thicker. Go part time or reduce your hours and overtime. If you get fired, all the better. You'll have a reason to reorientate. Quite often life needs to kick us in the butt before we get it one with change that is overdue. 2 years ago I was freelance and broke in a dead end in a pointless town. I did my GD, studied CS for 14 weeks (and dropped it again due to a insufficient cost/benefit ratio), did a larger web project that was 60% / 40% idiots all around (a bareable ratio at the time) but in the end it was a dead end. I moved away. Now I got a dayjob in a million in game developement in a company making so much money it's bizar, a fair salary, free breakfast & lunch, smart and nice colleagues that treat me with respect and are gratefull for my experience and advice and lots of fun stuff to do and programm on. And I do something entirely different in my spare time - tango dancing, which is fun and has me catching up on my typical nerdy girl-encounter-deficiency.

And if this life and dayjob becomes a drag one day, I won't take as long to cut lose as last time.

There are countless things out there that are fun to do and to live on. Start trying things out. Now. Wether you're going to be a park ranger, a trucker, a salesman, a freelance IT consultant or an oil rig worker doesn't matter. I personaly have a diploma in performing arts and could even imagine going back to that. You may have something else in your background. Go out and try or put yourself in a situation that either solves your problems in your current occupation or shoves you into the next. Packing up and moving on might be a solution too.

Good Luck.

I don't think IT is the problem - Its the people

[Anonymous Coward]

After working in IT for over 10 years now its become apparent that there are far to many people that are their own worse enemy. When I was working as a permie all we used to bitch about was how much this person gets paid, or how much contractors earnt. I soon realised that better jobs are available but no-one is going to hand them to you on a plate. I starting moving jobs looking for bigger and better challenges. I finally made the move to contracting 3 years ago and I will not be looking back. Sure, there are a lack of jobs at the moment, but if you have the right skills and the right mind set (and don't mind working for peanuts sometimes) you will always find work. I honestly think that too many people are scared to move from their comfy little holes and take a look around and what is actually out there. I lost a lot of friends (or people who I thought were friends) when I started to earn more money and progress up the tree. They didn't like it. I would tell them that if they didn't like their job they should move and find another one, but why should they. Its far easier to sit there and moan about how crap working in IT is. It's no different from any other job. If you don't activley try and improve you skills you wont advance and if you dont advance you'll become stuck in your ways and bitter.

Personally I like working in IT. As soon as I get bored, I will try and find something else to work on that will challenge me. I don't expect to work in IT forever, but it will certainly help me find whatever else I want to do when I decide to stop doing this.

Bottom line, IT is the same as any other job. If you don't work at it you wont get anywhere and if you don't get anywhere you will become bitter about your job and industry.

Outside (kind of) looking in.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been out of IT for a while due to the previous recession. To be honest, I was a carry-over from the old IT bubble and was a bit underqualified as a programmer at the start with but I think I did okay in the long-run. It was programming that gave me the appreciation of being thrown in the deep end and told to swim. A great way to learn, as I see it.
I've since worked in construction for the last several years. The work is a LOT easier than programming and I've gotten to work on several high-profile buildings. It's great being a part of the skyline, if only in a tiny way.
I've been going to school to upgrade my skills because I still love programming. Yeah, at the end of a long day sometimes the last thing I want to do is code, but it's still fun. I've tried getting back into programming work but, frankly, a lot of the jobs I've seen don't offer starting pay comparable to what I'm earning now. It's also a big stigma being out of the "biz" for so long. I'm close to finishing my second degree so we'll see what happens.
I'm of the opinion that anyone who can live out Confucius' saying regarding "doing what you love" and "never really working" are lucky people. I like what I'm doing now, but if you're unhappy there's nothing wrong with trying to remedy that situation. As long as you can still pay the light bill....

Engineering for Fun and Profit

[some old guy]

Believe it or not, you needn't throw the engineering baby out with the unrewarding specialty bathwater. Got a talent for gadgets? Like to tinker with cool toys? Occasionally actually get dirty? Really blow something up once in awhile? Try looking about in the field, see what industries you might enjoy. I've gone from SCADA design to manufacturing automation, chemical process development, and now I do biotech instrumentation design. Sometimes it takes some guts to jump into a new discipline, but as they say, no guts=no glory.

Getting "Down to Earth"

[stereoroid]

I left IT in 2007 to take an Engineering degree - specifically, one in the Structural Engineering field, hence the "down to earth" joke I keep using, because my studies include soils and foundations. My IT career was going nowhere, at least partly because I didn't have any degree before this, but also because I saw no opportunity for advancement within IT. To get anywhere at the (large US) IT company I was at, I would have had to go in to people management, which I did not want to do for different reasons. The managers at the company were no happier either, and I don't think I have the required "people skills" (lying, scapegoating, sucking up, etc). For various personal reasons, including health, I wanted out of the "virtual world" and back in to the "real world", where I could be around real things and real people. (We'll see how that works out!)

Future? What future? The Great Recession has put many in Engineering-related industries out of work, and as for Construction ... fuhgeddabouttit. I'm fortunate in that I saved heavily for years before starting university. I'm a UK citizen living in a country (Ireland) where tuition on first degrees is paid by the govt., though there are other charges. The cost of living in Dublin is no joke either, but I'm managing, and hope to come out debt-free. I should have a B.Sc (Hons) by next June, and will probably stay for two more years for a Master's (which is not free). What else can I do? It's not as if employers are going to need me next year ...

Labour

[bat2k]

I quit my IT job and moved to Alberta. I got my tickets and worked on the oil rigs in the winter and concrete in the summer. During my busiest year I made almost 3x more than IT. It was hard, grueling work, but I loved it. It was amazing to be able to see your work at the end of the day. I was out in Alberta for 3 years. Work dried up and now I'm back home looking for IT work along with starting my own business.

It is better to do something you enjoy

[Anonymous Coward]

I left IT for teaching in 2003 and never looked back. I make less, but I just cut expenses to match. I've got no regrets. I actually like going to work in the morning. It is so much more important to like what you do than to make big bucks. Take it from someone who has had it both ways.

Next Career = Alcohol!

[jkinney3]

Once I've had enough of the IT world (any day now....) my next move will be into the fine world of making beer.

Re:Next Career = Alcohol!

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of what industry you're in, there will be a Michael Jackson in there waiting for you.

Theres a reason for being stuck in a job

[Viol8]

Being stuck in a job you don't like is better than being in no job earning no money and with a mortgage and maybe a family to pay for. Moving into an entirely new career is risky plus theres the added downside of you having to start from the bottom again with the resulting pay cut. Not a problem if you're in your 20s , not so great if you're in your 30s or older.

I don't hate my job but neither do I like it much either , but I just look on it as something I have to do to earn money to live my real life outside work. And it could be worse - I doubt rubbish collectors enjoy their job - at least I have a safe comfy office to sit in even if it is boring work.

Sometimes you just have to put up with the tedium of life - and remember that the grass isn't always greener elsewhere , it may just look that way from a distance.

Re:Theres a reason for being stuck in a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately I'm now in the position of "starting over" in software development, because of my age. Even though I have over 20 years of OO and C++ development, since I didn't have direct years of Java development I had to take a developer's job at 1/2 the rate I had been getting. The problem was I couldn't get the jobs I was qualified for, because I was either too high-priced (in their estimation, I was obviously willing to work for whatever wage) or I was too old. I was told that last directly by the placement person for one job I applied to, where my skills matched every single requirement.

The place I'm at now hired me as an experiment, because they were unable to find enough clearable people with the (theoretical) ability to learn Java and were willing to work in software maintenance. I've actually become more of a CM person on my project, since there doesn't seem to be anyone who really wants to do it, other than installing and using SVN. I also manage to work on the tricky trouble tickets as they come in, using my skills at software analysis and a toolbox of tricks gathered over 30 years of experience.

I'm also looking around at what I can do other than being a software/IT person, since I can't afford to keep taking jobs that pay 1/2 of the previous rate each time...

Re:Theres a reason for being stuck in a job

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt rubbish collectors enjoy their job

There are some benefits to that job. Most are union and have excellent benefits, and unlike IT, the only thing that comes home with you from work is the smell.

Re:Theres a reason for being stuck in a job

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt rubbish collectors enjoy their job

Why do you say that? Seem like they have a pretty good job to me. The work for the gov't so they get good benefits, paid holidays, etc. Plus there will always be a need fro trash collectors. And (I assume) that it is an 8 hour a day M-F job. No working on weekends, no forced 16 hour days without overtime because the mail server crapped out, no SAN's sending you alerts at 3:00AM because one of their disks died.

Garbage collector seems to be a pretty chill and kick back job. Put in a solid 8 hours of hard honest work and when your off you can completely put your job behind you and go live your life. Unlike IT, which worms its way into every facet of every waking and sleeping hour of your life.

The elephant in the room

[Krakadoom]

One of the key points, that is completely ignored in the OP, is do you have any other marketable skills ?? That has a core impact on any of the derived questions you are asking anyway.

Isn't work the same for 90% of us?

[z0mb13e]

I have always assumed that at least 90% of the working population hated their jobs and that those of us working in IT are in the main more analytical and apply that to ourselves more and thus are less content than others who coast through life without thinking about their situation. Yes the shine has well and truly gone off IT. At least for now. Things may improve after the recession, but unless you have an idea of what you want to do or where you want to go, you are like me, in limbo. My career path started in electronics which I figured was a dying art so I went to uni to get a degree in computers/web/multimedia, then to multimedia developer to web developer to sys admin to project manager/pre sales (this last lot all within one company and often at the same time - including the assumption that I was at the end of a phone 24/7/365 regardless of where in the world I was) this was where I had enough and bailed. Only to find there weren't any IT jobs unless you were a kid with fresh IT certs. Worked as a handy man with a massive massive reduction in income (from £30k a year to just about paying all the bills each month) - that hurt but felt strangely right - doing enough to get by seemed a bit more real. To after a year having to take the first IT related job I was offered. It isn't exactly fun, pays £10k a year less, the management aren't exactly employee friendly, no benefits at all, plus the usual expectation that I am at the end of a phone 24/7/365. I really don't know what else to do. I have lots of other interests (snowboarding, restoring old cars, photography, music) and skills (electrics, plumbing, woodwork, plastering etc) but none of them I could (for various reasons) or would want to make into a career. I am good at keeping computers running and I can just about keep my cool with the stupider support calls. I guess until an opportunity presents itself I am stuck... If you can move I would say do it.

Yes, please!

[KGBear]

There's only one reason to be in IT: because you love it. Anything else is the wrong reason. I used to say during the good old days that yes, I was making great money but if I loved poetry that's what I'd be doing instead. Money is just not enough to make up for doing something you don't like every single day. IT requires commitment, willingness to constantly upgrade your skills, a passion for problem-solving, organizational and interpersonal skills. It gives back long hours, unappreciative employers and customers and these days, not a great deal of money. So all of you people who joined the profession during one of the previous booms thinking only about money, yes, please, go find something else to do. Go poison some other field. This will mean I'll get to work with fewer noobs and wannabees who think some stupid acronym certification makes them something they're not. And of course with fewer people in the field the average $$ will go up for those of us who really like this and know what they're doing.

be a CPA for $120 /hr and take over the world

[tomatobasil]

CPAs work with the only thing that management cares about, which is money. As a CPA you'd earn as much or more than a programmer/sysadmin/IT staff. More importantly, knowing both CPA and IT puts you in a position to run your screwed up IT department, get out of your cube in the server room and into board room. If you're halfway smart and shower daily you probably do a better job than most existing managers.

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say, I think this is one of the best comment threads I've ever seen on Slashdot lol. Between the bean sprout farmer, the guy with employees from Gitmo and the Indian guy who looks like Snoop Dog being asked for weed every day, I could barely stop laughing long enough to eat my breakfast... You guys are great :)

Management Honeypots

[TaoPhoenix]

I consider this a really slippery switchover at the core of the economy.

A lot of the authority of a Middle Executive is DeFacto. Let the CEO handle the scary stuff, like federal issues, media relations, new divisions, etc. Next in line is the guy "keeping the operation going". A lot of it is just listening intelligently with a sprinkle of animal savvy, then declaring "Do that option. Make It So." Yes, it requires some good instincts, but honestly folks, it's nowhere as brutal a grind as maintaining 100,000 lines of code or upgrading 3700 mixed-spec machines.

Brilliant managers are a company treasure. The Class B guys are kinda neutral. It's the Grade C filler guys you gotta watch out for.

Back to School

[Anonymous Coward]

One thing many people in IT have in common is their ability to learn new things quickly and fly be the seat of their pants. I am maintaining my IT job while going back to school to make myself more marketable in areas that I want to ultimately spend the rest of my life doing. It can be hard at times to look at the long hours I spend each and every day away from my wife and kid to do this. I sometimes get a little down knowing that I could have done it right the first time through, but everyone's life takes them different places. If I hadn't clusterfarked up my first foray into education I wouldn't have the experience and wife and kid that I have now, nor the wherewithal to truly understand what it is I want to do.

People who can do this are needed, badly

[alispguru]

I work for a NASA contractor. Some of my group's best people have a combination of hard-science and IT/CS experience.

You need both when you're implementing systems to schedule and steer satellite antennas, catch data passes in the hundreds of MB, and push them through layers of processing to create usable data products. A large part of the fun here is taking processing code written by scientists, giving it a consistent interface, and making it behave in an automated system, without changing its semantics. Having a clue about the science is very useful here.

It's similar to working for a university, in that pay is stable and not spectacular, and that at the end of the day you've accomplished something worthwhile. If our group went away for some reason, near-real-time satellite data would get much more expensive or vanish altogether.

Real Estate

[Anonymous Coward]

As crazy as it seems in these times, I'm beginning the process of phasing out my IT Manager career in favor of Real Estate sales. Here is why:
1. Bosses suck.
2. Most super successful people work for themselves.
3. Freedom from the 9 to 5 life.
4. More money.
5. Time to pursue other things.

Right now, the market is tough, many mediocre agents have left, leaving the real pros to work with and learn from. Further, this market is not going to last forever, there will be a return to normal, though not likely the silly boom that occurred pre-recession. With all the mediocre people out of my way, and with time as a part time agent amongst the older pros, I will be positioned to take advantage of the upcoming recovery.

Real estate is not just selling a house down the street, or helping your Aunt buy a condo, it's also selling buildings, and can be taken in an investment direction. Real estate is a large field that a person can take in many directions.

It also gives me time to coach football, even during traditional work hours.

I took a look at what kinds of things blogger do. How the heck does writing some blog make enough money to survive? What I found, not just for bloggers, but lots of other creative entrepreneurs, is that they didn't just do one thing - they wrote a successful blog, and consulted, and did a bunch of things to make money. They were financially comfortable, yet had a variety of money making pursuits, making things interesting and keeping them out of the rut we salary types get into.

If other people can do these things, so can I.

Photography

[intheshelter]

I'm in the middle of a 2 year plan to get the heck out of corporate American. I'm building a photography business from the ground up and I will not only eventually get out of the cattle-call of IT and corporate America, I'll be making 2-3 times as much money and ENJOY myself doing it. I think you are smart to be thinking of a way out of IT (you're generally treated like shit anymore and contract workers from India are going to own that market eventually), but you should also see if you can find a way out of working for someone else and work for yourself instead. Hopefully that's possible for you. I am not there yet, but being part way down the road towards the goal makes me excited for the future.

The problems you're describing

[killmenow]

These problems you're describing are management problems and have little to do with IT as an industry or career choice. Bad management is bad management. The management you describe are also likely mishandling sales, accounting, operations, and human resources.

The fix is not to get out of IT. It's to get out of those types of companies. Believe me, I've worked for company after company and even gave up on working for other companies to start my own. Then I found a customer that became my biggest customer and took up so much of my time I now work for them full time (but still own my consulting company).

This company has competent executive management, unlike the previous eight companies I had struggled with for a few years here and a few years there (three of which are now out of business and one of which is hanging on by a thread *due to terrible management*). Does the CEO still make an occasional wrong decision? He's human, of course he does. But the executive management team values skilled workers, listens to the advice given to it from employees whom it pays well for said advice, and provides all employees with the best tools they can in order to help them be successful at their jobs.

Find a company with competent management and IT is no more difficult a field than any other. In many ways it's better. And no, we're not hiring right now.

From IT to Psych

[DeafScribe]

I did web development from '96 to early 2001. Started as a freelancer in Florida, then temp and perm work in Washington, D.C. Money was good, respect was widespread, temping gave me plenty of time to travel. Good times.

Then the dot.com crash hit. I spent the following year applying to 500 different jobs. Got a few nibbles, a few interviews, but no bites. I threw in the towel and went to work as, basically, an orderly at a psychiatric care center.

We were chronically short-staffed at the outset, so there was all the overtime we could handle and then some. The pay wasn't anywhere near what I made in webdev, but I was too busy to fret about it.

By and by, I move up a notch in position, then become a weekend manager, then help run a new program. It's been nearly eight years now.

I work two full-time jobs, the second one somewhat related to the psychiatric work. 90 hours a week, and earning less than I did doing webdev. I'm not bitter - if anything, I'm thankful that I've got all the work I can handle while some folks are really suffering. My job security is pretty good, because working with psychiatric patients is a specialized skill that requires a certain temperament to do well.

I also write on the side, hence the user name.

Would I go back to webdev? It would require a lot of schooling - much has changed since I left the field - and if I did, I'd do it freelance. A previous poster was right - the problem is not IT, it's the boss.

But working with people definitely has its rewards, or I wouldn't have continued to do it so long. And this field has provided some fascinating insights into human nature, in ways that most folks are never exposed to. It's been an interesting journey all around.

law is glutted even top tier grads begging

[JimmytheGeek]

Do NOT go to law school under any circumstances. The job market is glutted and there is no guarantee of ANY work at all. The salary stats are inflated by bogus reporting, cherry picking from among those who have a job. More than half of recent grads had no job 1 year after graduating. Check out http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/ and http://www.lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

From IT to Electrical

[Anonymous Coward]

I was the only Network Administrator of a small network for a few years, followed by a couple years as a field technician for a small business that offered contract IT solutions. I applied, and was a successful candidate, for an apprenticeship program at a power plant. I'm a full time employee of a huge company doing troubleshooting and maintenance on all kinds of different systems/processes. The job is very rewarding, and the pay is unbelievable (100k base). If you can get into an apprenticeship of some kind in the industrial world, I would certainly encourage you to give it a shot.

more than you know

[Anonymous Coward]

Your employer shows their appreciation for your service every pay day. Get over it.

I jumped to nursing

[Chewbacon]

I went from IT to nursing. While many schools are in high demand and have waiting lists (some longer than the curriculum), you can complete a program in 18-24 months with a 2 year degree. Nursing requires critical and creative thinking, which I had from the IT field. It does require compassion, which some IT people, including myself, may find difficult to develop. You may be able to pull compassion off, but if it's all too difficult, you could to set your nursing career towards the ER. That IT attitude is more appropriate bedside manner in the ER.

I worked 3 part-time jobs while I was in school at 10-15 hours per job per week. They didn't pay much, but the multiple jobs came with pretty flexible hours. As far as income, I had to make sacrifices and changes. No more EVE-online, netflix, dining out, etc. That laptop had to hold out a little bit longer.

With the time I spent in school, about 80-90 a week of my time was occupied. It was difficult, but I was eventually out of school and immediately offered a job at a hospital where I worked one night a week. 6 weeks later (delays due to state licensing), I landed the position as a graduate nurse, after another 4 weeks passed my boards and became an RN.

I'm far from hating my job and I rest easy as every hospital in my town is hiring. The money is decent for my area (but in all honesty, it does suck for nursing), but if you can travel you can make very good money. And becoming a registered nurse is a nearly limitless foundation to build on. Management, practitioner, nurse anesthetist, physician assistant, or jump to MD. Simply put, it was, still is, a great career choice for me.

Complete and Utter Burnout

[overlord412]

I know the trapped feeling. I have a mortgage that's been refinanced twice, 2 car payments, a wife and 2 kids that occasionally need food and shelter to survive, etc. Right before the economy went south, I went from being an $80/hour independent consultant that demanded respect within the IT field at every company I've done work for, to a 5 figure salary low man on the totem pole at a Fortune 500 answering to a boss that sees me as a commodity on a team of 20 people. I have creditors and tax collectors beating down my door every day. I've already taken over 40% in pay cuts in the last 2 years. If you are in a similar position, there's no way out. Any career change would require an additional pay cut that would lead to losing your home, your cars, your COMPUTERS, your way of life. The only way out for would be to liquidate everything, sell off the house and cars, move into a low rent apartment or with a family member and reboot your life. Friends of mine have gotten out early. Here are a few interesting things that they've done: 2 different people went and got their Commercial Driver's Licenses and starting driving the big rigs. 1 former employee of mine moved in with his mother, went to nursing school and now is successful as an RN. 1 person and his brother, both in IT, went and took over their father's plumbing business. 1 interesting person bought a plot of land and went "Green Acres" and built a nature preserve. He eventually came back to IT after taking a break and is the CTO for a fairly successful startup company. My best friend from high school left IT around 2000 and is a successful kitchen and bathroom salesman who claims he's making more money now than ever. Most of my friends who seem to be happy and making enough money to survive are managers and directors for startup companies or universities. They are just above the technical level to avoid the burnout of having to relearn everything you need to know for your career every 4 years, but deep enough into it to provide the right direction for those are constantly studying to stay ahead and compete.

From unappreciated to a corrupt profession?

[Futurepower(R)]

If you go from IT to nursing, you may be going from bad to worse. The medical profession is EXTREMELY corrupt. Here are just two of the many examples:

Rooney On Health Care. His doctor billed $250 just for saying hello, literally for only saying hello. (Short video)

Be skeptical about flu reports. The reports about flu were so flawed I took the time to write my own, using information from The Atlantic magazine and CBS News, among other sources.

If there is extreme corruption, there may be a collapse of some kind, and you could become involved in a way you didn't foresee and don't like. As in the financial industry, the top executives will profit enormously, but the average person may lose his job.

Re:From unappreciated to a corrupt profession?

[artemis67]

Andy Rooney is your source? Serously?

Re:From unappreciated to a corrupt profession?

[rlglende]

Yes : our kid hurt his finger, got a finger splint, the insurance bill was for a full-arm cast.

I spent time in the hospital recently. Medical exam was 30 seconds in the corridor, billed as a full exam. Every hour some new medical specialty came through to 'do an evaluation', none of which I needed and none of which were prescribed by the physicians, so far as I know.

I felt like a pigeon being plucked, not a patient.

This is to be expected : the amount of dishonesty is proportional to the level of gov control. All times and all places.

Re:I stayed in IT, but moved WAY down the food cha

[blackchiney]

Holy Cow, I was just like you at one point. 3 years at a design firm as the web developer. I was getting fed up with the long hours and abnormally low pay. Then one day I quit. To make ends meet I started doing the roving IT support scheme. Only difference was I wasn't very good at asking people for money. I remember I fixed one lady's PC. It took 10 minutes and I charged her $25 for the service. She gave me $50 because I had a long drive ahead of me. The money was alright, but I spent my free time volunteering, going to the parks, and basically just getting some fresh air. I lived in this city for years but didn't get to do or see a lot of things because I spent so much time at work.

and...

[jipn4]

and in what field do you think users would be more "appreciative"?

Unless you already know a field you really care about deeply and that you have wanted to move into for a while, I think switching fields is probably not going to help you.

Tech support hell...

[Anonymous Coward]

When my career tanked after Hurricane Katrina finished off what the shrinking economy started I bummed around for a while before I took a job in tech support for a company that brings satellite tv DIRECT to you if you know what I mean. I thought my familiarity with tv for more than 25 years would make it a breeze. Instead it's having 20-somethings who got promoted on the peter principle as supervisors and managers.

It can be nice some days to help appreciative older people solve their snowy screens when they get their tvs on the wrong input, but otherwise it sucks the soul right out of me not only to deal with the byzantine rules of over the phone tech support. The pay is less than $10 an hour and for this they expect you to handle all calls in less than 750 seconds no matter the problem or the screaming meanies the person is having on the other end of the line.

If I had a good out of this job I would walk in a heartbeat. I feel the social fabric of America unraveling as I listen to people wanting out of their predatory 2-year contracts because they also lost their jobs and having to transfer them to 'save' team who will bombard them with more predatory offers to try to keep them sucking the tv teat.

Aw fuckit, I fear retaliation from Directv so much I'll just post as anonymous coward. That should tell you how weary and beaten I am to hang onto this horrible job that I fear losing it.

The quote at the bottom of the page...

[Anonymous Coward]

...says it all

"The people sensible enough to give good advice are usually sensible enough to give none."

Conductor? Train engineer? Bike shop?

[MrCrassic]

IT is my passion, and I love get my hands wet into new fields related to it. I've done the technician-level roles for a very long time running, and it gets boring really, really quickly. At least for practical purposes, imagination and creativity is mostly absent as a technician, unless your the manager of a delivery team and are responsible for bigger roles. Another thing that I hate about most IT-related jobs is the lack of physical mobility many of them have, so I do consulting on my spare time to get some of that flexibility and become familiar with different fields.

However, what I really want to do when I'm more established (hopefully) is work for the MTA (NYC) as a conductor. I really, really like the idea of conducting, though I can see how it can become tedious very quickly. Trains and subways are a big passion of mine, and it would be awesome to at least try this position once.

If not that, I would love working at or opening up a bike shop. Cycling is another big passion of mine, and I always thought of opening up a small bike shop and getting more intimate with the bicycling industry (which is actually fairly big and very interesting to learn about).

Development works for me

[noahisaac]

I was a Sysadmin and later IT director for almost 10 years. I, too, got really tired of the thankless work, staying up all night fixing broken stuff and having nobody even notice; having people literally yell at me because the copier had another paper jam. I quit life as an employee, and started my own IT support company. That wasn't a whole lot better, and when I started getting requests for websites, I jumped at the chance. I had to learn SQL, but I had most of the requirement of a CS degree, so I already knew C/C++. It was a short jump to PHP and Perl, and I had to brush up on HTML/CSS/Javascript a little. Since I've gotten better at SQL, I've taken on some DBA work, too. The people I work with as a developer actually seem to appreciate what I do, and I'm no longer the on-call IT dude. I do still fill in the gaps with IT work, but it's getting less and less frequent, and I couldn't be happier about that. Good riddance to IT work. I'm much more suited to development. Maybe it would work for you, too.

Re:Development works for me

[Tablizer]

Until the day you are stuck supporting a big ball of mud created by a long-gone bad programmer, and that you are not allowed to overhaul.

Re:Development works for me

[noahisaac]

Fortunately, I am my own boss, and I would never do that. Oy! After a few early mistakes, I decided that I would not take on any jobs where there is not a clear path to completion and payment. Tablizer, it's a trap! Get outta there!

Re:Development works for me

[Tablizer]

Not until the econ improves.

Re:Development works for me

[NickGnome]

I did tech support, SQA, sys admin, data-base analysis and design, and a little web weaving, but it all taught me that it's only software product development (especially scientific and engineering apps, but I'd like the opportunity to work with music/sound, images and video) and maintenance that keeps me energized.

Reading some of the discussions, and looking at some of the BLS stats, I'm surprised (and a little disgusted) at how how many people are content to be body shopped, how much "IT" work (services) there is, and how little software product development employment.

I read a story in the last couple weeks about a guy who quit programming, learned fine furniture-making and now is producing a series of how-to videos. If I were "ept", that sounds like it would be a decent fall-back. I really liked being able to work with CAD/CAM/CAE tools that let even me draw up a design for something and have the milling machines produce it. But then there's another sign of the hollowing out of STEM and related fields in the USA. One of our best machine tools companies now only produces coolants.

university level teaching has been a joy...

[Anonymous Coward]

After 27 years in IT in the private sector, I taught for 10 years in the business school of a very good university. I just retired. But I still miss teaching. It was BY FAR the best job in my life, even though the pay was less than half of what I earned previously. It felt so good to work more for love than money, and know that I was making a difference in my students' lives, helping them to get jobs.

Technology Consulting

[nanobyte123]

If you have the right personality and don't mind traveling, technology consulting can still be a rewarding and lucrative career.

I was fortunate enough to work in Europe for over a year and in South America, all before I was 24. And interacting with C-level executives has been a valuable networking experience. I've spent the last few years working with major companies on a variety of ERP and strategy projects. However, I've been able to do this with a smaller firm. I imagine that the big-5 firms would have more of the "race to the bottom" mentality.

Also, consulting keeps you on the business side of computing and away from the drudgery of hardware and software development, and therefore making you more valuable to your customers. Whenever I hear people complain about the IT industry, I'm not sure that I understand. If you are passionate about what you do and truly talented, you should have plenty of options to get out of stifling environments.

Performance Testing

[pnuema]

I think I really have managed to find the sweetest spot in IT. I make as much as a developer, my work is technically interesting, and best of all, I have absolutely nothing to do with production. Good performance testers are hard to find (mainly due to the high signal to noise ratio from the resume mills over seas), so when you are hired and recognized as such, you have some job security. Best of all, almost no one really understands what you are doing, but everyone understands when the website goes down, we lose $REALLY_BIG_MONEY every hour. If I prevent a single 2 hour production outage on our flagship product, I've paid my salary for the next 20 years. So we don't get shit on like QA testers, but no one is calling me at 3 in the morning either.

The best days of the IT industry are behind us

[jonesxxx]

I have worked in IT for around 30 years. To start with the techies ran everything and we survived by the seat of our pants because we were good at the technical side. DR and testing were not top of the agenda but the industry was great fun.

Later computers became more mainstream and most medium sized companies had a handful of mini computers. The managers knew nothing but just kept out of it.

Today the management consultants have got their claws into IT and so someone who has no experience of IT but has attended a couple of ITIL courses gets put in charge. They have no understanding of the fundamental concepts of IT systems and so they spend all their time on paper shuffling, meetings and politics.

My job today is endless meetings and reporting and going over the same issues time after time without very much progress being made.

The jobs have also become more and more specialised. I remember when I ran the OS, the DBMS and the network. Now there is a team of specialists for each of these. Consequently the specialists have no understanding outside their discipline and fault finding has been replaced by a standard set of question and answers with replace or rebuild as the fallback.

I think that the best days of the IT industry are behind us.

I have heard that this is the trajectory of most new technologies.

When the telegraph was invented there were a few people who could operate the morse code machines and they were paid well. These operators became so good that they could recognise each other by the way they tapped the code out. But eventually telephone replaced telegraph and today a telephone engineer's job is probably no more than board swapping.

We’re stuck in it because we’re good at it and it pays OK. Too late to start on something else and what else has the chaotic energy of a new industry?

I went into aviation

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been in IT for over 15 years now. It's been good to me, but I recently left it for aviation. A few years ago I decided to stop working for money and work for fun. I went and got my A&P license and now I work for a regional airline. I love what I do, I make decent money, and can you say flight benefits??? Aviation is a great career.

I did it, not sure if it was a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I left IT in 2002 and went back into print design. Years later, I am making half the $$ that my IT colleagues make. Although I like my current job moderately more than the one I left, I kick myself twice a month for not sticking it out. I live in America and it's all about the money.

I say find a good psychologist and keep your IT job.

The dream career

[jjphtm]

After being laid off from my sysadmin job, it's been the best thing that ever happened in my 12-year IT career since I was also severely burned out. I'm now back at school studying filmmaking heading to an editing career. The IT skills come in super useful, and I get to do something I've always wanted to do. It's all about what you love, and though I learned that lesson the hard way, I'm glad I have the IT experience to back my new career.

Re:The dream career

[endus]

Good for you dude. Getting out. Living the dream. You're smart to have taken the opportunity. I was sort of praying for a layoff to try and start a photography business myself.

Find a passion

[MhzJnky]

I am in the last year of an MDiv program and moving towards Ordained Ministry in the United Methodist Church. My undergrad was in Comptuer Science and I was a software engeenier and project manager for almost a decade. For me I just couldn't stand being locked in the office all day and started to explore what I found really interesting and rewarding. I was volunteering at my church at the time and decided that I was feeling called to make it my profession.

I would say find that thing that holds your interest, that you'd get great satisfaction out of, and find a way to make it your job. Careers should be about a lot more than money. They should stir something in you which has its own rewards. Yes, you'll not be able to buy as much. Though, ask yourself, do all the things you buy really make your life better or are they just a means to distract yourself from the job you dislike.

We did have to sell our home and move into a small apartment while at school and their won't be any new cars for a long while, but it was well worth it. I've been busier the last three years than I have ever been, yet at the same time happier and more excited about life.

same complaints

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand:

'financially and even verbally unappreciative."
"How did you deal with the income difference, if any? Do you find yourself dealing with people more, and if so, how did that work out?'"

What is it you want? More money and pats on the back without having to deal with people? You are not going to get more money in a different field without a lot of schooling. And you are not going to have any positive interaction with people until you change your mindset of "dealing with people."

Wait, what?

[GameboyRMH]

Plus after civilization collapses in the coming zombie apocalypse, I'll be able to barter my health care skills for survival, while programmers will be a useless load due to the lack of electricity.

You can't be serious. There will be electricity, whether from wind, solar, automotive power inverter, or hacked-together diesel generator, and with Microsoft out of business, Linux devs will be in high demand, plus online social networking will be much more popular since going outside will be inherently unsafe, not to mention how critical communications will be. So C and python devs, web devs, VoIP admins and network admins will be in high demand - bonus points if you can build wind turbines and UPSes from scrap. Health care on the other hand, will be less valuable. Once a zombie bites you, all you can do is put the person out of their misery, or maybe try a very quick field amputation of an affected limb. The only regular work you'll have will be friendly fire, on-the-job accidents, and maybe delivering babies. Of course work in both the IT and medical fields will be sparse until a base is established.

Re:Wait, what?

[ae1294]

You can't be serious. There will be electricity, whether from wind, solar, automotive power inverter, or hacked-together diesel generator

I'll have to agree on this one. Someone is going to need to build and program the gun turrets that keep the zombie hordes at bay and as far as bartering your skills I think you'll find a gun works much better.

Attitude, communication and leadership

[Anonymous Coward]

First, before you try to leave, be sure your attitude and other emotional baggage you carry from your current employer isn't going to hamper your efforts. If you are letting the resentment, anger and hate swell and fester inside you, then it will be very noticeable in future job interviews (whether different industry or the same).

Try the exercise in this Zig Ziglar video.
If conditions are truly bad, it may not help those conditions, but it will help your attitude in REACTING to those conditions. It helped me put my current job in perspective as I work on developing new opportunities for myself.

Second, you need to start mingling, socializing, and communicating with people. Most IT professionals tend to be loners and back-room shadows, so you need to start developing relationships. Outside activities such as clubs and volunteer organizations are a good place to meet people who appreciate you and your time. This will also boost/help your attitude and mental state, and even help you develop a network of people when you start looking for another job. You may also find your relationships with people at your current job improve as well.

Finally, there are some skills/abilities that are in demand everywhere: communication and leadership. A Toastmasters club can help you develop speaking and leadership skills, which will server you very well when it's time to jump ship and go elsewhere. This isn't a Toastmasters commercial, but a personal recommendation.
http://www.toastmasters.org

Good luck in your quest.

How to deal with the pay raise?

[aminorex]

I moved from software engineering to quantitative financial analysis, and my pay scale tripled. Now most of my colleagues have been let go in the past year, and switched to hotel motel restaraunt management or some such, but those of us who are left are still making more than 20 year software engineers. No one is hiring in this area, however.

IT the land of opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

I've felt your pain irving47, however those days are long gone for those working as a contractor for the DoD. Consider looking for jobs in area's where they have a strong military presence. With a few certs to backup your credentials a government contractor will pick you up in a heartbeat. I made the switch 2 years ago and ended up getting a considerable increase in pay because of it. In addition to that I get to use the latest hardware and software with budgets that seem endless.

How old? Mid Life Crisis??

[HycoWhit]

If you are male and between the ages of 38 and 42--make sure you are quiting your job for the right reason. There seems to be a natural urge in men to do one or more of three things: 1) Quit your job 2) Leave your wife, or 3) Buy a sports car. The advice I learned after leaving my job at Bell Labs for a career in real estate was to buy the sports car--it is by far the cheapest option....

I'm glad I did

[Crazy Brian]

February of 2009, I left the IT industry in the gambling sector, and became a Maintenance Mechanic at a grain mill in the small town I live in. I got a $4 an hour raise, and cut my commute costs by about $100 a month, and lost 15 pounds by riding my bicycle to work. I now make the most per hour that I ever have. It's still owned by an evil corporation, but at least the local surpervisors seem decent. I still get my IT fix, by keeping my household up and running, as well as doing computer work on the side. The mill also has me do internal computer work, and they pay me a premium whenever I do it. Their actual IT guy is several hours away. 6 months after I started, I became an Electrical Trainee, with another pay raise. Worked out great for me!

Okay, a little late to thread but...

[jav1231]

I have to say I can't do anything else nor do I want to. When I "retire" I'd like to teach. Other than that, IT is a passion of mine. If I intend to work in a field that I truly enjoy, IT is it. I've been in the field either marginally or full time for nearly 20 years. It's often frustrating and yes one is often unappreciated but rewards of solving major issues and teaching up and coming SA's is a huge draw for me. I'm inclined to think that those who start wishing for another career simply aren't passionate about IT. To them they made a choice much like choosing between a banking job or a management position. IT was not a choice for me. It was in my blood and being able to work in the field is my equivalent to having a hit record.

Am I the only one with a good job?

[Fished]

I've got a great job, working for a Solaris admin group at a Fortune 100 company as a systems architect. Right now, I'm working on building and maintaining the customized Solaris image that the company installs, but in the past I've done everything from troubleshooting to programming to web design to straight sysadmin work. It's interesting work, and a new challenge every day. I'm a single father, but my management has been very understanding of my needs in that department, I get decent pay and very good benefits. Yes, the corporate mergers, takeovers, outsourcing, insourcing, reorganizations, etc. suck, but then again I've had a stable job since 1999 and so far there's no writing on the wall. Prior to 1999, I had no trouble finding jobs from 1993 on. Once, in 2007, I found a very good job after looking for a whole two weeks, then decided to stay with my current employer when they counter-offered.

I hate to sound harsh, but I wonder whether those who complain about IT aren't really suffering from a skills gap. It seems to me that IT's a great place to work for those who are really good at it, and that (as is the case in most fields) the best don't have trouble finding work. If you're having trouble finding work, always getting laid off, etc., maybe that's a sign that IT isn't really where you belong?

Alcoholic parents/self-select for nursing

[wonkavader]

It used to be the case that a phenomenal percentage of nurses had one or more parents who were alcoholics. They were used to taking care of people with little reward.

Now we need more nurses, we pay more, this attracts people with different attributes, and we worry about not getting a self-selected group.

An interesting situation.

Maybe we should lower the pay of nurses, again, remove all taxes from alcohol and lay off a bunch of adults to encourage parental drinking? That would breed a new super-race of patient people with low expectations who'll take shit from doctors all day and still be nice to patients while wiping their butts.

Or we could work on better training for nurse candidates and a lot of role-play early in their education. That's another thought. Maybe not as good, but a possibility.

nice fork bomb

[drenehtsral]

I like your signature.

Commercial Property or Community Management?

[walterbyrd]

My suggestion? Find an industry which is old (and thus has well established work principles), deeply unsexy, and (if you can) look for jobs on the income side of the ledger.

I know a woman, in Denver, who works as property manager for an office building. Basically the job is hiring contractors, collecting rent, paying the bills. The job pays $90K a year, with perks up the wahzoo. She does not know anything about plumbing, electronics, hvac, or anything like that.

If you own the business, community (HOA) management, can be even more lucrative. Seems like it would hard to get started, but if you could get started, you have a very stable income.

Not Quite away from IT..

[knghtrider]

For the past two decades, I've been a VAX SysAdmin/Novell/Windows Network guy. Like the Poster, I've been frustrated by clients/companies who want Angus Filet on a cheeseburger budget. Last year, after my last contract expired I sidestepped over to a company that creates and installs home banking software for Credit Unions. Wow..what a difference. I'm appreciated, and compensated quite adequately. Yes, I work some long hours sometimes, but there are rewards for that. Plus, I get to use my IT skills--but only focused on Web and related networking aspects. I don't have to manage users, I don't do any server upgrades, all I do is install the software. An even bigger perk---I work from home. Even though our company laptops are locked down (I can't run down to the coffee shop and use their Wi-Fi for example), working from home is nice--especially on 'Go Live' days that can be 10-12 hours long. I guess what I'm saying here is that there are IT-related jobs that you can acquire where you don't have to worry about the client's requirements and budgets. If they don't have the gear to run this application, and don't want to pay our hosting fees; then they don't buy it..

Maybe network engineering?

[walterbyrd]

As IT specializations go, this may not be a bad one. Here a few things I like about it:

1) I think it would be one of the more difficult specializations to off-shore. I suppose you could have a local CCNA speaking with an off-shore CCIE, but I'm not sure if even that is practical.

2) Clearly NE is not a specialization that is not done by kids, hobbyists, or other amateurs. I believe it is a mistake to specialize in areas that are commonly done by amateurs, such as web-site development, or desktop admin. An amateur may be able to set up a home, or small business network, but a data center environment is a different sort of beast.

3) Reasonable high barrier to entry. Displaced IT workers like developers, QA testers, data analysts, and the like, will not be able to easily move into this field. Especially at the more advanced levels, this field can not be so easily glutted. I expect to see displaced developers trying to move into sysadmin, dba, and even help-desk jobs.

4) A lot of "hot" technologies are closely related to NE: SANs, VOIP, wireless, information security, and data center architecture. I know Cisco has a certification for practically everything. Of course, I'm not sure how long those specializations will remain "hot."

5) There seem to be some decent programs for learning NE. University of Colorado has a program:
http://xrl.us/csf8h
Also, Cisco is generally considered to have some of the better cert programs. These days, I don't think the entry level CCNA is worth much. But, some of the more advanced and/or specialized certs may be worth-while. With the exception of the CCIE, most Cisco cert exams are inexpensive, and can be passed by self-study. The CCIE, while very difficult and expensive, is also very valuable.

6) Unlike a lot of IT jobs, I think you can advance fairly steadily in NE. I would think the work environment would be stable than many developer positions, where the work load is always boom or bust.

7) Unlike many admin, and developer, NEs jobs do not seem to require those arbitrary, and seemingly endless, lists of products and technologies. For example if you a java developer, you may miss out on a particular job because you don't have professional experience with ColdFusion. If you really know your networking, and Cisco, you can probably find a job and keep it, without having to know every application, development environment, language, operating system, etc. known to man.

8) Salaries are good, although not extraordinary. Seems to me that most salaries in the Denver area are between $70K and $140K. A lack of extraordinary salaries may be a good thing. I think a lot of people want to become developers because they think they are going to get rich, this of course gluts the field.

On the other hand:

1) I don't think there is any critical shortage of NEs.

2) I don't think the need for NEs is growing all that fast.

3) Network admin tools, may decrease the need for NEs.

4) Getting started could be very difficult. Like most jobs in IT, there is practically no such thing as true entry-level. If you don't have experience, you can not get experience.

I have not worked as an NE myself. I would be interested to know what others think.

How about this...

[e-scetic]

I'll start off slightly off topic but there's a point coming.

I always think that anyone who says "with the economy the way it is" doesn't really understand the economy.The economy is always the way it is. For every person who is losing money, there is someone gaining. What's bad for one company is good for another. One industry shrinks, another grows. The price/value of something goes up and down, benefiting and harming someone all of the time. Every winning business idea/plan soon becomes a loser, every successful business that grows, grows to the point of losing control. Every great product is eventually superseded by something better. Every business is based on exploiting something or someone.

The point I'll make is that if this kind of constant chaos and turmoil creates fear and anxiety in you, maybe you need to get out of the economy and go back to a much more basic and rewarding lifestyle. Maybe retire, or join a commune, live in a monastery, or set out on an adventure, hitchhike the world, sail the oceans, climb mountains. Stuff that REALLY matters and nourishes the mind and soul.

Unions....

[Anonymous Coward]

To Xest (935314)Unions make the United States unable to compete. Look at the UAW? How about taking a class in Macro-economics?

"Unions are great"...this's guy's an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

You idiot. Unions are not good for people...they kill competition and therefore kill the ability to complete. It's people like you (who don't understand economics) who are stupid liberal democrats. Go ask a person with an econ degree...you might learn something. Just look at the US car companies and the UAW? US car companies can't compete that's why Honda and Toyota are eating them alive. Do you want to make the rest of US society unable to compete? Go take a college level macro-economics class....idiot.

Re:"Unions are great"...this's guy's an idiot...

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be one of those people over-educated in one of those joke subjects like "economics" which is really just a cut down version of more intelligent subjects like maths designed so that stupid people like you can understand the rough idea, even though as you've shown the rought idea is worthless in the general case.

You see, you've missed the most important point of all; what's good for corporations is not necessarily what's good for people in general, otherewise the RIAA should be able to murder anyone whose ever downloaded an MP3 to remain competitive following your idiot logic of course. US car companies can't compete because they produce inferior shit that is horrificially over sized and over pollutes whilst those of us in Japan understand that you do not need a car that big and do not need a car that pollutes that much.

I don't think he needs an economics course, I think you just need a clue about life... idiot.

Hate this career...

[endus]

Biggest mistake of my life was getting in to this nightmare career. This industry is a fucking joke, the work sucks ass, the management is clueless, the users are stupid and unappreciative...the list goes on.

I am a fairly good photographer and seriously considered fine art photo or photojournalism as a major when I decided Computer Science wasn't for me. Instead I went into Information Technology. Definitely a decision that fucked the rest of my life. I would be broke as an artist, but I could not possibly be any more miserable.

It really is an awful career, I tell everyone who is thinking about going in to it to think again.

Re:Hate this career...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a full time photographer (with degrees and everything!) and I can't tell you how awful it is trying to make money in this business. Absolutely every jackhole with a camera is now a photographer. Stock has been destroyed by Getty. Newspaper and magazine photographers are basically gone...they're all shooting weddings for $1000/pop to try to make ends meet. And weddings are worth crap, anyway, because every 24 year old girl (who naturally has a husband with a real job) has suddenly discovered her "passion for photography" since the digital cameras are so easy to use these days. So, yes, you would be broke, but still miserable, because you would be trying to actually make a living at photography (like I am) where your competition just has to not lose too much. It is an awful, awful, awful career.

Slinky Plan B).

[Goraek]

pft.. I swapped from Physics and IT consulting to medicine..
actually, kinda fell into it.. ~plenty~ of scholarships and funding if you know where to look.
you can do it in 4yrs post-grad. It requires a whole new level of "knowledge density", though the average IT guy has the endurance to put the hours in.

tie in a ~little~ maths, ability to program and medicine... SOOOOO MANY offers for research...
seriously, the offers out there are... astounding. I've only got a Diploma in Electronic Eng, and get offers

In .au you can work 2 half days a week (assisting in surgery, locum, whatever) earn enough to cover living and hobbies..
three mates did that to fund a biotech startup.

plan B). hotties at med conferences. She's a doctor = kept man. she's even keen for me to stay in uni to do a PhD :D

I can't emphasise how exciting and fun med is to study. it's hard work, but just comes down to hours of the day :)

Do what fulfills you. It's that simple.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been in the professional IT field for almost 15 years, and spent the last years working for the big guys in the Valley. I'm frustrated, burnt out, and just tired. At the end of the week I go home, and feel as disconnected as can be; then spend the next two days unwinding and doing stuff I love only to go back to the grind for another week on Monday.

Quit my job in Mai and walked away laughing. Literally! Then I spent the next almost three months traveling the South Pacific and fell in love with it all over again. Always happens when I go there.

Alas, when I came back to the US I started in IT again, having turned down offers to stay in the South Pacific area. Looking back now, I kick myself almost every day for not having listened to myself. The one thing I took away from this summer is that I want to get out and change. But it's important to not blindly throw everything away and risk what I've worked on for so long. So now I'm looking into going back to school (because I want to), I spend more time on my hobbies which I love, and within a year or so I hope to have prepared enough that I can take the plunge. It's a little scare, but it's even more exciting to take charge again.

Bottom line: follow your heart. You owe nothing to your employer; your services for a paycheck, that's how I see it. If you have the feeling that you're wasting your life, change something.

I moved away and haven't looked back...

[gsperling]

I started professionally in the IT industry back in April of 2000. I started out by picking up contracts and short-term work. I was eventually able to land a few full-time positions, and various office politics saw me jumping from company to company for a period of about three years. In December of 2003, I landed a full-time position with a pretty decent company. I penned my own job description, built the IT infrastructure basically from the ground up, and ran a very successful IT department. Then, the parent company started taking over our company, and my position was eliminated due to "re-organization within the department." Rather than look for another IT job where I would eventually become miserable and have to spend thousands of dollars on new certs and learning new technologies, I decided to go to college full time. Seeing as how I dropped out of high school, got my GED, and immediately started working back in 1997, not having a college degree was a hindrance for making better than minimum wage in any other industry. I'm now a full-time student at a 4-year state university, and after I graduate in 2012, I intend to attend law school. I will become a criminal prosecutor, and have no desires of going back to IT. However, and with all of that said, since starting college last year, I have worked in an IT capacity for the university and former clients. It's what I know, what I'm good at, and what pays the bills. After all, school ain't cheap, and neither is rent.

In the process

[swigabyte]

Well, I too have been fed up with corporate mentality for along time. I did web programming as an independent for about 8 years. Then decided to get on board with the my primary client (become an employee). I enjoyed interacting with people more (more social environment) and the regular schedule. But, productivity wise, I felt I was wasting my time. Every other manager, and 3rd party project manager had there own agenda. No one wanted to take responsibility for anything and were not willing to do anything outside of there current tasks. Some of them were even incompetent when it came to their primary job. Anyway, ... I've always had a creative side, dabbling in this and that. So, after about 3 years working there, my wife and I decided to make some changes. I am now working as an independent again (making about half what I was). We're living more simply and paying debt off to allow for less income. I'm still programming. But, my wife and I are working together on doing pottery, with the intent to make it a business. I love programming, and hope to continue to use those skills to sell our stuff online. Learning pottery as a new skill is fun, and I really like that it allows me to be creative too. I wound't recommend switching cold-turkey, cause you may find out your new profession is not for you after much time and energy training. Test out the waters for awhile in your spare time (lol). Make friends with others who are already proficient in that field, they may be able to give in-site to help you decide if the life style is for you.

I'm going to be out in a while also..

[HerculesMO]

My wife is currently studying to be a dentist, and while that will take a while, I am starting to slowly prepare to go to medical school.

I get such a great high of fixing problems in a technical capacity, I imagine the feeling of saving a life would be an amazing feeling as well. I know it's hard work and long hours and all, but not much unlike what I do now, and I'd feel much more accomplished if I came home and had saved a life, rather than saved irrecoverable data or something to that effect.

I am on a 10 year plan or so, so it will be a while before I make headway into that field, but I intend on doing it, and I'm working slowly towards that goal.

Good luck to you.

Re:I'm going to be out in a while also..

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok sounds good, but please don't be under the illusion that you'll save a life every single day or something. It's probably a rare occurrence.

Law

[cfulmer]

After the telecom nuclear winter, I went from being a software developer to being a law student and am now a transactional attorney, dealing largely with technology transactions and startup companies. Drafting contracts uses many of the same root skills as programming does, and I understand the needs of my software and Internet clients much better. Plus, the pay can be a lot better (if you go to a good law school), layoffs are a lot less frequent -- sure, attorneys were laid off in this economy, but they've generally been immune in previous downturns. Also, since becoming a lawyer means 3 years of law school and bar admission, there's a lot less competition for available jobs. Of course, it all depends on getting into a good law school -- there are lots of attorneys out there who graduated from 3rd tier law schools and are making less than they would have had they chosen an IT career. And, being a lawyer is not for everybody -- lawyers have a maxim "the law is a jealous mistress."

Look for a book

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend a book called "Do What you Are" by Paul Tieger.
It does not answer what job should a take, but it focuses your personality to what careers you will be succesfull with.

Re:Look for a book

[bodland]

Oh well...looks like I will be a drag queen after all...

The problems with "following a passion"

[walterbyrd]

I have heard that simplistic advice all my life.

The obvious problem with that advice is: most jobs that people are passionate about, are jobs for one percenters, i.e.: writers, musicians, actors, athletes, etc.

Also, very often, something that is fun to do as an amateur is no fun at all as a professional. I see this all the time: a guy loves playing with his garage band, becomes a professional musician, and absolutely hates every minute of it.

Re:The problems with "following a passion"

[TikiTDO]

Ahh, I would venture to say that the advice is only as simplistic as you make it. In fact, entire novels could be written about the idea. If you take it absolutely literally, then it is certainly idealistic and optimistic, but I would like to highlight the critical difference with a question: Is your goal simply fun, or it is your true passion?

I did not explain the idea very well, but I would not suggest you pick something just because you did it as a hobby in high school. Instead, I say find your true calling; you'll know you got it right if you can overcome any pains to do it. After all, most people are not REALLY passionate about the roles you listed, they just see that those roles are the ones with the most money and power, and figure they should go in there to live the good life. I am saying that you need to overcome this natural desire to gravitate towards the jobs everyone idealizes, and instead move towards the job truly meant for YOU. As someone else brought up in a reply, there are people that might even love hauling trash. I happen to know such people myself.

Your example of the garage band illustrates this perfectly. The guy might enjoy music, and might even convince himself that this is what he wants, but he goes in there, and suffers constantly. What probably happened, is he saw all the media attention, money, and power heaped upon those successful in the business, and thought to himself, "Hey, I have a band. That could be me." In my view, this illustrates that he did not really understand what the job actually entailed, instead he just saw the rosy pastures, and wandered into the field, oblivious of the thorns. In his place, I would first research what it really means to run a successful band. There are plenty of artist testimonials that explain all the pains that come with the job. If that price is something I can afford to pay in order to pursue this passion, then nothing will stop me. On the other hand, if I feel a seed of doubt that it is worth it; if I think to myself, "Well, it sounds like a huge pain, but the money must be nice," then I will know immediately that this is not the job for me. In that case, I can still keep music as a hobby, so that someday, when I have more time and freedom, I may pursue it at my leisure, but when it comes to making a living, I will find something else to do.

Of course, life is not that easy. As many people pointed out, many roles are already filled in our current system, and the dependence on the huge service industry drives skilled people into dead-end jobs. Still, even in those situations you should constantly explore and expand your horizons. Who is to say your passion will not win out over the tedium of your boring life. It is certainly better than accepting that this is all there is to live. To make matters even more complex, your passions may change over the course of your life. Eventually, you may feel that you accomplished everything you wanted in your profession. Hopefully, when that day comes, you will have a small nest egg to allow you time to train yourself, and reach success in a new field.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

I should have never got into the software field. I graduated from engineering in the nineties. I should have gone straight for med school instead of wasting time in IT. Let the past by the past. Since 2000 my jobs have all sucked. Under incompetent management. I feel as if I accomplished little. Now I'm trying to get back into health care which is what I always wanted to do. I have been studying to become a PA. If not then RN or MD. I don't care at this point how long it takes. So who cares I'll be 45 or whatever when I'm done. It is better than IT. Wife has a decent job (non-IT of course) and enough savings that money should not be a big problem. If you are under 50 and not crazy about IT then get out. I am already much happier knowing that my days in IT are numbered and I will be doing something better, more interesting, more fulfilling, more prestige, more respect and most likely more pay. I look at it like a divorce that needs to be done.

As a Student...

[squizzi]

The myriad of fields is why I chose IT as my major. I love computers, I've built them since I was 12 or 13, put Fedora on my laptop when it was first launched, etc. The passion is their for me, especially in the Unix/Linux SysAdmin field (currently taking a RHCE class and taking the exam in January). But, I have things to fall back on, I'm picking up a business minor, I love english and originally wanted a degree in journalism, but I loved computers to much to pass up IT, I LOVE graphic & web design and run a small online design firm myself, I even had hired a coder that I originally outsourced my clients to, and continue to produce PSDs which I sell to clients. My coder, a student as well, dropped off the interwebz when his school life got busy, but it was nice while it lasted. The moneys okay, I'm not known well, but it helps pay for school and I love working for people and hearing their gratitude for a fantastic website design. I'm building my portfolio with a hobby and with that, if IT doesn't go my way I look forward to applying to design firms around my area, I've already submitted portfolios to some firms for internship opportunities and am awaiting word. I've heard the woes of the IT world, working for evil corporations and dealing with jackasses, and I've heard the better side of things with my brother who works on a Cisco VOIP test team with a fun work environment and a beer and cookies day. It's all about loving what you do and enjoying what you do, and if you don't enjoy it then get out FAST.

Er, crap pay and shovelling shit?

[Viol8]

Just a couple of reasons it might be a rubbish (ho ho) job.

Re:Er, crap pay and shovelling shit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Er, crap pay and shovelling shit? Just a couple of reasons it might be a rubbish (ho ho) job.

Here in Phoenix starting wage is $12 an hour which maxes out after a few years at $18 but then you continue to get cost of living increases every year etc. $18 an hour isn't rich but it is not crap pay, especially if you have no college education.

I worked with the trash collectors here (I worked in the motor pool) and most of the actual trash collectors had decent cars, houses in the suburbs, etc. Plus I don't think that they ever had to "shovel shit." They are trash collectors not plumbers.

Re:Am I the only one left who thinks his pay is ok

[rainmaestro]

You're not the only one.

My pay isn't stellar, but for my situation it is good enough. I prefer a simply life, and have low expenses (no kids, my only expensive hobby is golfing, I enjoying cooking so I don't eat out much, etc), so even though I'm possibly the lowest paid person here besides the part-time custodial staff, I still make enough to be comfortably in the black every month.

What really makes it worth it is the job itself. I work for a small IT contracting company that does the IT work for the company I'm physically at. Even though I'm salary exempt like most IT workers, the company bills the client hourly for however many hours I do. As a result, I'm under strict orders *not* to work overtime (they don't want to pay for it, of course). If I do a 10 hour day, I leave two hours early on Friday. I work a staggered shift, coming in around 9:30 and leaving around 6. Works better for me that way.

Officially, I'm a support tech, but as a one-man IT department, I do everything. Networking, server admin, Sharepoint admin, backups, etc. Most of this stuff is a steal for this company for what I'm being paid (ever seen the hourly rate for Sharepoint admins?), but I'm early on in my career, so I get to play with stuff and pad my resume in the process. This month, I'm recoding the company websites with one of the marketing people as well as selecting and deploying a new asset management system for tracking IT assets. My company is paying for my MCSE certifications as well (i'm a Linux guy in an MS shop).

Sure, there are downsides. My budget is precisely $0, I'd have to go through the full purchase order process to get more paperclips right now.

More pay would be nice, but from my perspective, this job provides other benefits that will pay off in the long-term.

been there, done that, stopped looking back

[drteknikal]

I spent two decades as a network/pc tech and a systems administrator. When the time came to look around again, I was depressed by the thought of going through the job search, rolling the dice, settling in, performing triage and rebuilding, and then waiting to see how much management would allow to be done right in the long run. In my mind, it was the prospect of going somewhere else, doing the same things again, and spinning my wheels for a few years while I discovered which ways I'd be thwarted this time.

For background, I started off in the military (US Navy) and then transitioned to military/defense contractor (NAVSEA), then to civilian government contractor (USAID/STATE), and then I went corporate. I worked for a law firm, mistook the frying pan for the fire and jumped into the fire, went to work in a drug lab (a pre-clinical drug-development facility), was treated worse than the lab animals, found a K Street (Washington, DC) law firm with a casual dress code, and went back to working for lawyers. After about 5 years, I realized it was time to leave, and I no longer had much interest. Absent a carte-blanche startup opportunity, I walked away. Not the American Beauty deal, but I got 18 months of COBRA paid for, and continuing retirement plan contributions for the same term.

I bought the farm. Mortgaged my house, bought a 10-acre farm in West Virginia, and renovated. When complete, I sold the old house and decamped. Now, I grow peppers and make hot sauce. I keep bees and pack honey. I do what I want, when I want, and I answer to me. The farm's paid for, living expenses are minimal, and my retirement funds are intact. I'm a packrat, and I have a lifetime of collected stuff that's easily sold on eBay as needed. Even with medical expenses, I still have a positive cash flow.

There are many ways to do it. One of the easiest is to flee the big city for the middle of nowhere. My new place cost 1/4 of the old one, the new house is 20% bigger, and I have 80x more land. The trick may be funding the transition. I was lucky, my old house was paid for and I could borrow against it so the new place wouldn't have a mortgage.

Re:been there, done that, stopped looking back

[Anonymous Coward]

Good job. I'm in IT, been here for 20 yrs. Hate it, want out of it so bad. But chained by wife and kids to the salary, otherwise I'd bail s fast.

In the mean time, I'm learning. I have my first 2 beehives, making my own butter/cheese/bread/jellies/jams. Doing gardening and trying to re-learn how to work on cars. Taking an online class in Solar design/installation.

Who knows where these hobbies will lead. Hopefully out of IT.

For Americans, IT avoidance should be a no-brainer

[walterbyrd]

In the US, IT workers typically have a life of constant turmoil. Rather than building a career, IT workers move from one throw-away job to the next. In most professional career fields (doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher), it is normally expected that you advance and earn more as you get older, and more experienced, in IT it's often just the opposite.

Occam's razor: off-shore labor is a lot cheaper, therefore employers will off-shore every possible job. If you do your job sitting in front of a computer, then your job can probably be off-shored - if not now, then certainly in the near future.

Practically all IT jobs that are not offshored, will be filled by guest workers.

Furthermore, the simple laws of supply and demand dictate that the few jobs that are not off-shored, will have a glut of qualified applicants. The experienced developers who have their jobs off-shored, will clearly try to leverage their existing training and experience into the few remaining IT jobs that can not be easily off-shored. This causes a glut, and drives down wages.

The IT worker glut will be increased even more by improved automation of information system maintenance, standardization of software, and non-IT specialists who are increasingly sophisticated with information technology.

There can be nothing to stop this devastating trend, due to the following:

1) Corrupt USA politicians
2) USA IT workers are not willing to organize
3) Influential corporations have effectively distorted the issues

So there you go, it's as simple as that.

Take a look at this if you don't believe me:

http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:news_and_commentary

re: opening one's own business

[King_TJ]

Truthfully, I think this is the smartest route for a lot of us I.T. types to pursue, as the economy remains this sour.

I'm (thankfully) still employed in corporate I.T. - but our entire company is hanging on by a thread. (We're in steel manufacturing and our sales are tied directly to new home and commercial construction, which isn't going to exactly be "booming" for quite some time.) When you add to that the fact that the owner was really due to retire a couple years ago, and it appears nobody else has the financial means or interest to take over when he does retire -- it means my chance of having a future here are slim, looking a year or two into the future.

I've had a small side business I kept going, doing on-site PC service and consulting work. Basically, that means I offer anything from assistance setting up a basic web site for someone's small business to cleaning spyware off their PC, to doing the research and leg-work to get someone the perfect new notebook computer for their needs. Just last week, I got a doctor's office out of a pinch when their front office computer's motherboard died (in an eMachines tower). They tried a big-box retailer for assistance first, but of course, was informed they'd have to buy a whole new computer first, and then pay hundreds for a tech to transfer all their data off the old PC and onto the new one, AND it would take at least a week to get it finished. (I was able to go in, pick up the broken machine, swap the hard drive into a used Pentium 4 clone mini-tower I had lying around, get Windows XP to work with the different hardware, and return it to them by the next business day - all for a total cost of around $300. Other than the cost of gas for the 2 trips, it was all profit to me since I was getting rid of a clone I got free when I helped a different customer upgrade their old PC to a new one.) Customer was delighted and is now referring me to others.

I've never had to spend anything on advertising, besides about $40 in stamps and paper to send out some letters to strategic people and businesses, when I first started, to let them know I existed. Every regular customer I've gotten has been through word of mouth and referrals. I have no cost for a physical office either, since I go to them. I like keeping it a small, side thing for now -- but if my day job dies off, I think I'm going to gamble on growing it into a full-time business. The era of the "mom and pop computer store" really took a beating and almost died in the 90's with all the mega chain stores and cut-rate pricing on new PCs from giants like Dell and HP. But there's still a void to be filled in the area of providing good SERVICE at a price low enough so it makes sense to do the repairs vs. just buying new and starting over from scratch. This is where the big guys CAN'T compete - because they want each broken PC to result in a NEW computer sale!

Audio Engineering

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been moving slowly over the past 10yrs from IT Engineering to Audio Engineering.
Very similar in their technical joys, esp now that all audio work is 99% based on software/computers.

also, look into film/animation/video games.

working in the arts gives me much more joy then working on keeping someones email up for their snuggy website

Just a question....

[magbottle]

What's IT?

Are you Crazy?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep your job. In fact, Get up early and do something extra for your employer. Stay late and do something even extra-er for them. Give until it hurts and then give even more. We are in a Flippin Nasty recession. We came to teh brink of depression last fall and are still coming to grips with the fallout.

here are the steps:
1. Thank (God, Buddha, Unlimited Consciousness or Darwin) for the fact that you have a freakin job. Many people do not right now.
2. Make sure you *keep* said job.
3. Drastically reduce your consumption and save every cent you can.
4. Simultaneously, decide who you are, DEFINE what your purpose in life is, Decise what to do and become the best in the *Gosh-darn* world at it.
5. send me a royalty check for settin ya straight.

If you feel sad that you don't like your job so much, take a trip to Detroit and do some sightseeing, you will come back psychologically re-adjusted and will find that your job, while a pain in the arse, is the best asset you have right now.

cheers!

Re:Are you Crazy?!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd add two more to this list:

6: Save, save, save. If you are drinking six packs of Sam Adams Utopias, switch to PBR for a bit and sock money away. You can't count on unemployment lasting a while, so it might be good to try to factor in having enough cash to last you a year, perhaps more. The bottom is not in sight for unemployment numbers, and layoffs are an easy fix for company stock woes. (Stockholders love the words, "streamlining" and "rightsizing".)

7: Keep an eye forward on trends, potential trends, and conditions. Potential trends right now are home servers (Apple acknowledged this market with their Mac Mini with two drives and OS X Server). The conditions these days are perfect for the advent for a server in every household with a computer. We have fast, cheap and reasonably secure [1] LAN infrastructures both wired and wireless. This means that there is an untapped market for home servers, and all it takes is some good marketing and just like the iPod, one will see a server in every household. MP3 players used to be considered geek only too, way back when. Keeping abreast of trends means you have a higher chance of another job if you get laid off, and it will help if you want to do a startup.

8: Document everything. What has saved me from the axe in a number of jobs was the fact I didn't just do system changes, but had documentation of what I did, especially when it comes to office politics and other people with the root password. Documentation also helps when you get jumped by a surprise audit.

[1]: I say reasonably secure, especially for products that are for users not well versed in security basics. Of course, one can do better with a machine with a custom OS/firmware for the edge router, a machine to do hub routing (LAN party guests go on one segment, your private boxes go on another segment, you have separate fabrics for normal Internet and backup servers, etc.)

Office Space

[jduhls]

I did the cliche "IT to Construction Worker" maneuver and it was the smartest thing I've ever done. I spent about 4 years remodeling homes (I did the company's website, too). I learned everthing I needed to know about residential construction and quite a bit about fine wood working, too. I lived poor, drank cheap beer, and bitched with the best of them. Made really good friends and met some real characters (some I don't care to ever know again, too). Needless to say, I quit construction and went back into IT so I could afford to buy and remodel my own house. There's nothing more rewarding than building your own awesome fort! No regrets, here. I felt like the construction job was like a college degree in something that was a) worthwhile and b) something I really enjoyed doing. Good luck.

Allow me to explain...

[Petersko]

"WTF are you babbling about? You are a genuine moron."

The post you are replying to isn't actually a statement on its own. Since it is below and to the right of the one above it, the implication is that it's a "reply" - a statement meant to address its "parent". To clarify, your statement is the "parent" to mine.

The purpose of his post becomes clearer when you read its parent.

Don't blame Ayn Rand for this one .....

[King_TJ]

I have to strongly disagree with you. You're making the false assumption that I.T. workers are continually "under-bidding" each other in a "race to the bottom". I'm finding that entire premise really hard to comprehend. I've worked in I.T. for close to 20 years now, straight through the whole .COM rise and fall, the whole Y2K scare, and many other things. What I've seen is more of a case of industry making adjustments to the economic realities of their situation over time.

During the "glory days" of I.T. when people were commanding huge salaries and calling the shots in many businesses, you were also in the heyday of computers and I.T. adding BIG changes to the way things worked. Companies that had never really "computerized" before were suddenly discovering things like "sales force automation software", ERP packages, network and Internet faxing, computer-based training, and were inter-connecting with other businesses over broadband Internet connections which were just becoming "standard issue" for everyone. Given all of that, it was pretty EASY for a manager to show big "returns on investment" with his/her I.T. staff.

After all of that became "standard practice" for everyone though, the competitive edge for introducing it was over. Businesses were largely left paying I.T. people big salaries and waiting for the "next big improvement" they'd bring to the table -- but not really getting one. Everything moved to more of a "maintenance mode", with I.T. staff spending most of their time ensuring the technologies they implemented kept working properly (and often, finding out they didn't work as advertised - meaning more expenses switching them out for other solutions that actually did what they promised!).

I really don't know anyone in I.T. today who is willingly asking for a lower salary than they used to get, simply because they're trying to "out compete" other applicants. It's more of a situation of businesses drawing a line, saying "No way we're paying 6 figures anymore for this type of work! We did that in the late 90's and maybe it made sense then, but I.T. is much more of a "necessary cost of doing business" now, vs. a driver of innovative ways to cut costs." If you keep submitting resumes asking for salary $X and nobody calls you back, you finally give in and try asking for $X - Y, until people start responding.

Revolutionary changes don't happen on a consistent, regular basis .... True for I.T. as well as any other field. I think I.T. is in a more mature, stable part of the business cycle right now.

Re:Don't blame Ayn Rand for this one .....

[Money for Nothin']

Very well said; I agree with much of this. In short, the low-hanging fruit of IT has been picked. We're all still waiting for Google-like improvements to our lives from artificial intelligence, but aside from Google, nobody at this point is holding their breath any longer...

IT has shifted from an innovative industry to a maturing one, and as it does so, the mental void resulting from a lack of excitement is increasingly filled by the fact that IT is ultimately an expense.

Nobody needs another damn WCMS, or accounting application, or spreadsheet...

I do disagree with you strongly though on the point about bidding wars. Have you seen the business side of IT contracting this year? Love it or hate it, the economic theory of competition holds very sound - and the competition is quite fierce; there is plenty of under-bidding, and the process of such bidding wars is a race-to-the-bottom, by definition. ("Bottom" needn't be "zero" - it just has to be low enough that only 1 vendor is willing to provide the product at that lowest-of-all price level.)

Also, many people are taking pay cuts to keep their jobs; where they are not, salary freezes are usually in place -- meanwhile, inflation eats-away at workers' real income, which is essentially a pay cut.

Getting into financial planning and securities

[rcpitt]

My sentiments exactly - I'm taking the Canadian Securities Course - and a course on insurance and getting into the financial sector. If nothing else I'll be able to do some stuff with computers that other such people have no clue about - but I'll be doing it for ME

How in heaven's name...

[Petersko]

"In a meritocracy, based purely on skill and ability, the IT departments would run most companies."

How in heaven's name did you arrive at that conclusion? Please, fill me in. I'd like to know. And simply saying we're business subject matter experts is not enough.

Nursing again

[SgtChaireBourne]

Depends. Do they run M$ products in a hospital? That counts.

become a cop

[Anonymous Coward]

I went from law Enforcement to IT, if not for certain injuries I would go back.
So become a cop, when someone gives you crap about something you can taze or mace them.
If they get really froggy you can shoot them.

Now if we could only shoot frigging stupid users.

It's true...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's true. IT gets no respect these days and for obvious reasons.

First of all, unless you're in the position to FIRE somebody you will never get any respect. We will always be the guys who can program a VCR and to them, it's just something they don't want to take the time to learn. The problem is that they think they CAN learn everything about IT/IS. They all have PCs/Macs at home and they think that because they can browse porn at night and install freeware apps that they know it all.

What they do NOT seem to know is that IT/IS staff are the most powerful people at the company. We control everything that is worth money and that is information. Grant it, entry-level help desk employees do not have this power but upper level IT/IS staff do.

We also have an extremely broad skill set in that we may be the guy who gets called when a case fan is making funny noise or Word is acting up but we're also on call when a SAN has failed or an application server has slowed to a crawl and needs to be fixed. Not to mention, keeping or financial systems up and running/secure.

We run the world and they don't even know it.

Leave in middle of a server upgrade with your middle finger in the air.

Re:It's true...

[Anonymous Coward]

If I didn't value my name or career, that might be a matter of course. However, in a lot of circles, managers talk. They will remember some IT person who ditched on them and make damn sure that their buds at every company they share a tee time with will never hire that person.

There also might be civil/criminal consequences. Leaving a company in a middle of a server upgrade where they are unable to earn income might be grounds for a crushing lawsuit and guarenteed zero unemployment due to gross misconduct.

The worst thing someone can do is confuse the person with the bass drum in the marching band with the person wielding the baton.

Re:It's true...

[walterbyrd]

Where do you get this stuff?

There also might be civil/criminal consequences. Leaving a company in a middle of a server upgrade where they are unable to earn income might be grounds for a crushing lawsuit and guarenteed zero unemployment due to gross misconduct.

A lawsuit would be extremely unlikely. Employment is typically an "at will" arrangement. You can leave whenever you like, employers can fire you whenever they like.

As to unemployment, you don't get unemployment when you quit a job, "misconduct" or not.

Re:How'd I handle the income change after leaving

[Anonymous Coward]

$1,000 bills are not longer printed. ass.

Work environment is also important

[dn15]

Great advice. It's also important to make sure you do it in an environment that you like. I got into tech/IT jobs because computers were my hobby, not my actual field of study in college. But I quickly hated each job I got. Either I felt exploited and unappreciated, or I hated an aspect of my job such as too much time spent doing phone support.

About a year and a half ago I found a job doing IT for a couple technology-heavy K-8 schools. For once I actually enjoy my job -- or at least don't hate getting up in the morning -- because I feel valued and appreciated by the staff and students. And even if I put in unpaid overtime once in a while, at least it feels like it's for a good cause.

So once you've decided what you enjoy doing, you really need to find a tolerable place to do it. Your coworkers and overall work environment can turn an "I like doing this" job into something you hate overnight.

Two sides to every story

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a large engineering firm, and at least 75% of our employees are engineers of one kind or another. Sure there are some dim bulbs in the bunch, even amongst the engineers, but for the most part we're talking about people who are very tech-savvy, and security-conscious. The nature of our work (especially those of us who are software engineers) REQUIRES us to have admin access to our own computers. Ever tried to do any serious software development on a machine you don't have admin access to? It sucks.

Yet, our IT people act as if they're the intellectual elite within the company, and they insist that we should not have admin access to our own machines. Every 2-3 years they make a big push to revoke admin access, and all of the various engineering departments have to plead their case to upper management. The IT guys have not won that fight as of yet, but I DREAD the day that they do.

What do you mean you need to install the latest Platform SDK? What's wrong with the old one? No, you cannot install . It's not on our approved software list. Why can't you just use Notepad? You want to put a Linux box on the company network so you can test out your client/server application? No can do. It's against company policy. What? You want to disconnect your computer from the company network and hook it up to an isolated LAN to test your client/server app, and you need admin access to change the IP address? Nope. Can't do that either. It's against company policy. No, you cannot install . It's not on our approved software list. You'll have to submit a request for approval. The request will have to be submitted to our change board, which meets every other Tuesday. How long does the approval process take? I'm not sure. I've never actually heard of such a request being approved. It's not our fault that your delivery deadline is in 6 weeks. You should have put in the request 6 months ago. What? Your customer just changed the requirements on you last week and there's no way you could have anticipated this 6 months ago? Sorry, that's not our problem.

Re:Two sides to every story

[Grishnakh]

You should just let them revoke admin access. Then you'll run into a wall before long, and won't be able to work any more, and you can just surf all day. Your manager can then point out that your group did nothing for a whole month and it's all IT's fault. During that month of surfing, you can look online for a job at a company that has a clue.

This is all stuff your manager is supposed to be dealing with, not individual engineers. If he's trying, but he's still not getting anywhere because of dumb company policy or whatever, it's time to look for a new job because your department is probably going to be cut pretty soon for not meeting revenue goals. There's simply no way to get around a company having piss-poor upper management; I learned that at my last job, a company in that was in freefall and made every dumb decision possible which resulted in simply giving up on the product our department worked on (and was the industry leader in at first, before management bungled that lead away by laying off the RTL design team to save money before finding out there were bugs in the chip) and finally laying off our department, leaving our customers in a lurch.

Mechanic/technician

[Anonymous Coward]

Automotive/vehicle service/repair seems like a good gamble if you'd rather deal with things than people. Probably better for the squeamish than nursing (if you see any blood, it's probably your own from where you banged your knuckles or snagged on something). And if you you don't care to get all grubby with motor oil or other fluids, go the specialist route such as automotive electrician or body repair. Still you might have to toughen up a bit if you've been on the computers too long (somethings are just heavy or just difficult to work with), but in a few months you should be able to deal with it.

If you're in a quality shop that actually fixes cars or does good maintenance to keep them like new, so called insourcing is much less of a problem. Most of the better dealerships, racing specialty shops, and the better repair shops are like this. This is because you have to know your shit and actually be educated and ASE certified to work at such shops.

But depending on your locale, it still may go the other way. If you don't mind working where the result is a car that runs too loud, too rich, and burns oil, but is "cool" because the paint and stereo are loud - then that definitely falls under a workplace facing the insourcing threat. Required automotive knowledge and skill is probably less at those shops (yet experience still counts), and turnover is likely higher. Also don't be too surprised about a habla espanol requirement so you can actually communcate with the off-book workers and perhaps there being some other shady business practices.

Also don't forget the other wrench turning trades, if prodding about cars just isn't your thing or if your location reduces that particular demand. Aircraft, motorcycles, boats, farm equipment, and small engines also need their mechanics. Those jobs aren't exactly going offshore anytime soon.

Almost 10 years in QA, need to leave

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in QA for a large, stable, and boring company (probably one of the best things is to work for a boring company that is stable)... I don't like drama. I am highly critical, can hack out scripts do just about anything and can break anything so the job is a good match for me. My biggest problem is the lack of vacation. The pay is decent, I don't even have to work that hard most of the time and I don't usually work long hours. But with only 2.5 weeks of vacation a year for the last 10 years I'm starting to feel like a robot. I don't even know if I like this job anymore. And I don't like dreaming in script code all the time. I don't like the feeling of trying to start up a hobby or outside passion but never really have time to be anything but mediocre. I get tire of having to constantly stick to routine. I don't even know what my other possibilities and potentials are with so little time to explore them. So I will try for a 6 month leave of absence. If I don't get it, I will quit. The ten year stint has enable me to completely pay off my home, which makes me idealistically think I could live on a lot less money. I'm thinking of becoming a surf bum somewhere south of the border for a while.

Andy Rooney's medical bill is my source.

[Futurepower(R)]

Andy Rooney's medical bill is my source. In this case, Andy Rooney said is backed by plenty of evidence.

Re:Andy Rooney's medical bill is my source.

[artemis67]

Yeah, I saw it as well, though my thought at the time was, "How do you know how much your doctor did for your if you didn't ask him?" I deal with clients too, and a lot of stuff goes on behind the scene that they may not be aware of.

Rooney took it at face value that the doctor did nothing but compliment his show.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

The salaried positions, taking into account the REAL hours I worked was an income equivalent to a retail job plus a weekend part time job. Total crap. Then I tried consulting. Pay was handsome. But paychecks were slow to come. Sometimes I would have to wait a few months. A few projects I weren't even paid for.

Thats when I got fed up and swore off coding for pay. Its tempting to blame oneself, if one didnt make it to Google or another big name. But you have to remind yourself- if current markets don't want to pay for hard work, its not your fault.

I do in house care-taking now, and its way less stressful. If you dont have a burdening responsibility (ie a family to feed) and IT is not doing it for you, consider taking advantage of your freedom. There are other jobs out there.

Direct link to The Atlantic magazine article

[Futurepower(R)]

Here's a direct link to The Atlantic magazine article, one of the sources for the article I wrote, linked above: Does the Vaccine Matter?.

So much self improvement

[kezzsim]

Well, I wouldn't know myself, But recently my dear old dad was laid off from his crazy Israeli networking start-up... You could tell they weren't going to last long anyway (they couldn't even afford a single copy of air magnet for their surveyors to use!). but since then it seems there's no tech industries around willing to hire the old man... they're busy eating up all the low-pay college kids they can find to fill a cheap void for now. So on the flip side, he's given up hope and is going to night school to become a home inspector.Which I suppose unlike IT is a kind of thing that can't dissolve overnight, after all, everyone needs a place to live, right? ironically, I myself am a college student looking to enter the IT field someday with a degree in programming. Hopefully they'll still be such a thing by the time I graduate...

Dual Class!

[Cedem]

Dual Class! Seriously pick a second line of work that your interested (Marketing, Law, Medical, Engineering, whatever) and, go get a job with a small biz, and do both. One of the main reasons I've been able to avoid the axman is because I balance my Engineering with my IT duties. Small firms cant afford to have a dedicated IT staff, but being able to have an employee that can do their main line of business AND IT is near priceless. And the added perk in my situation is that because I am working with a number of fellow engineers I can avoid most of the helpdesk nightmares because they are all intelligent people. Most of my IT tasks are system admin related.

Wake up!

[Anonymous Coward]

So much pessimism here. I am one of the traditional IT guys too - knee deep in code and staring at shell prompts for years. Outsourcing hit hard, then harder, and soon a bunch of 1/6 my pay hard-to-understand guys took all our work - (well we gave it to them, that was part of the job too)

But the world is still running on IT. The US is primarily moving towards an information economy (manufacturing / etc. is dead with GM/etc.). Most of the people posting or reading here know how to start a web site. Possibly take credit cards online. Sell something, hell thats what we did for years cause we were told to.

Just get your head out of the sand, quit crying, get a website (4$ a month for unlimited everything nowadays?) and start a business. People forget the opportunities they have. One friend of my went into 'handheld data acquisition technologies'. He wrote software for palm pilot-like thingies that fed data to a LAMP. Living very well now. Others just sold their skills - web developers.

Some are just lazy, cry, and gave up... think about it. Things may be tougher but you're likely not living in a 3rd world country, (yet). So suck it up!

Trucking

[FrozenGeek]

I got fed up with IT at one point so I got my commercial driver's licence and did some linehaul (i.e. long distance) trucking. Money was about comparable. Didn't really spend that much more time dealing directly with carbon-based units. Being away from home for an indeterminate amount of time (days to weeks, depending on what's needed where and when) kind of bites.
I found that I missed creating software too much and went back to it. But I still have my licence as a back-up in case ...

Re:How'd I handle the income change after leaving

[hyades1]

They're still in circulation in Canada. My girl friend got one as a Christmas bonus last year.

Fucking moron.

Re:clean up poop

[uslurper]

"You have to clean up poop sometimes, but it's decent money."

And how is that different from IT?

Is the US so drastically different?

[jimicus]

I'm in the UK (my employer, until recently, had an office in the US) and there appears to be a huge cultural difference - our US office closed partly because we simply couldn't avoid hiring empire builders who wanted to spend all the company money hiring people and becoming middle managers of some sort rather than, I don't know, actually producing and selling a product. This was immensely frustrating for anyone in the UK trying to work with them.

I think at the height we had 80 staff over there and 5 layers of management from top to bottom. And then people wonder why the Indians and the Chinese are eating their breakfast.

Moving away from the IT field.

[soundsketcher]

I also felt the same need to leave an IT career which was somewhat unfulfilling and unrewarding. Unappreciative customers were the least of my worries; however your mention of them gives them a place in the top 10 reasons. ITIL driven businesses were one of my biggest reasons to get sick of a career in system administration. Businesses use the ITIL framework in ways which are not justified, and apply certain theories blindly without first considering how to implement them in a low-impact manner. Yes, I'm being very generic here, but only for the sake of holding myself back from an endless rant. Anyways... To answer your question, my method of leaving the hands-on IT world while still remaining of technical value to my employer was to move into Technical Writing. As a profession, I read it was voted in the top 10 least stressful jobs in the United States, and I can confirm that here in Australia the stress levels associated with Tech Writing are relatively low. I find it also satisfies the creative needs of a geek while still paying the bills and leaving enough income for geekdom. Technical Writing is definitely worth a consideration if you have good linguistic skills, and if you enjoy interacting with different teams to harvest and transform data into universal information.

Moving to Psych/Biofeedback

[Anonymous Coward]

I tapered off (not quit cold turkey) from IT a few yrs ago. Since then, I first tried film making. But didnt work out due to long lead time before you can make it. Now Im trying to shift to Psychology, especially biofeedback therapy. Coll thing is, lot of the instrumentation used in this field (EEG, MEG signal processing) and the analysis software (FFT, Wavelet transforms, volumetric visualization software etc.) transfers straignt from my IT background. Its really cool, and VERY cutting edge - some of the traditional MDs only reluctantly believe in it, and some insurance co.s only reluctantly pay for it, thats how cutting edge it is!!

I think Neuroscience is slowly evolving into NeuroEngineering, and thats the place to be, especially if you want to rid the world of evil pharma co.s, insurance co.s and want to make a real contribution to health care.

AND Oh, especially if you dream of inventing a REAL Tricorder

I would put it more tactfully, but honestly, agree

[DRAGONWEEZEL]

If you are up enough in IT (READ: NOT DESKTOP, call center or site lvl networking) You'll know that IT encompases many facets of large organizations. It's project management. It's workflow development and analysis. It's 2nd tier support for an app. It's app development & or deployment.It's comunications. It's business continuity, the glue that makes the rest of the company stick to gether. IT is what it is.

IT is not in the rain, wiping bottoms, or picking up trash. If you apply yourself, and the knowledge you have about one department relate it rationally to other departments, you can do anything you want. It could be tons worse.

The difference between an IT professional and a doctor?
We both work off of "triage documents"
Both cary pagers
We both are told that a fix is needed yesterday.
Everyone want's a magic pill or patch to fix their problem.
Both deal w/ aging (hardware and wetware)
If either of them screw up it could cost tons of money and sometimes cause death.
Take home pay is about the same. (Though Docs tend to gross a little more if not fam practice)
Both take care of people when they are most vulnerable.
Both have a 100% failure rate over long enough time frames.

Doctors just have to deal w/ body fluids (yuk!), have high malpractice insurance, go to school longer, and actually have to talk to people! I know quite a few programmers and an IT guy who went on to be doctors because they saw how easy everything is once you apply a little logic to it. It's a path that I may take myself.... (or teach, I haven't decided yet)

You sound like an employee,not a business partner.

[jotaeleemeese]

If you were a business partner then you would have ensured that your opinion mattered.

Or am I missing something?

It's a challenge to transition

[mikey111111]

I transitioned away from a career in Biology for the exact same reasons you are bringing up. I was underpaid, and under appreciated. I realize it's not the same as moving away from IT, but there are probably some common parts to the experience. I chose to work in upstream oil and gas. It's an industry here, and the strength of my B.Sc. got me a position that paid exactly the same as my biology job. Less than a year later I accepted another position within the company for almost triple that, and I've broken the six figures barrier. The value of my B.Sc. was hard to factor in. Some people in the company understand that a degree means you have the capacity to learn new things faster than most people. It also helps that I'm a keen student of everything that comes my way. I made the transition, I don't like the people as much (oil production rate is tied to day to day stress in a big way), but I have been given the opportunity to learn all kinds of new skills that I didn't as a lab rat. I now deal with a difficult client that has about six levels of hierarchy (I never thought I would be able to be diplomatic to the degree that I am). I've made some new friends that I wouldn't have met any other way, and the compensation is much higher. I just hope my luck holds, and that I keep on the steep learning curve successfully. Best of luck if you choose it. It's a very difficult decision, and I suffered from anxiety for about six months after due to the uncertainty in my new domain.

Be a teacher

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave up programming to become an ICT teacher here in the UK. After 3 years I've just got back to where I was salary-wise, and the hours are far worse (barring the summer holidays - I work in every other holiday and weekend).

That said, I am far happier, I feel a tangible job satisfaction, and (most importantly for me) I deal with people on an every day basis. Also, because I have gone into a field with few IT literate people, I stand out above the rest due to my knowledge of computers and have managed to carve out a niche as "the computer guy" which has helped my career no end. Also, as most IT teachers seem to be failed accountants or ex Maths teachers, I feel like I am really useful to my students.

I still think about going back to programming after a really tough day, but taken as a whole I am glad I left IT.

Wishful thinking.

[jotaeleemeese]

I have more expertise than you do, and have worked in only top 20 or 30 global companies in different countries and continents.

I thought I was also almost irreplaceable, until the day I was introduced "to the new guys from $REMOTE_LOCATION" that "will help you with the workload".

To cut matters short, I was in effect training my replacements. I knew it, my company knew it, the guys in $REMOTE_LOCATION most likely knew it.

And finally I was let go, with a great redundancy package mind you, but still, was let go.

But it was not only me, it was all my team and many other teams who had to pack their boxes and go home. And it was not only our company, many companies collapsed and the ones that didn't let many *very* clever and talented people go.

So now people begin to apply for the very few jobs out there, all with CVs as impressive as yours or mine, and guess what? Companies can pick and choose, after all they have the guys from $REMOTE_LOCATION slaving themselves away in 16 hour shifts for 1/5th of what local people used to earn. If the costumer service suffers (which it does) then apologize, throw two more chaps to the problem and wait for the next complain.

I have been applying for jobs for months, I must be nearing 100 applications (not for the run of the mill jobs mind you, but for the ones that need highly complex skills). No luck. But I am not surprised, one buddy of mine had to take a cut of 35% on his salary, another one had to relocate, some other started their own companies but remains to be seen if the effort will pay off.

In theory, yeah, people that have been there, done that, and got the scars to probe it, should have it easy, but when every job opening receives 100 CVs, 20 of them actually very good, then no amount of wishful thinking will make matters better for the applicants that are not successful.

Are you American?

[jotaeleemeese]

From which country?

Chile, Costa Rica or Canada?

Re:Are you American?

[NiteShaed]

Hmm, lets see.....
Chile, officially known as the Republic of Chile. Citizens known as Chileans.
Costa Rica, officially known as the Republic of Costa Rica. Citizens known as Costa Ricans.
Canada, once officially known as the Dominion of Canada, but now just Canada. Citizens known as Canadians.

It's funny, but I don't actually see the word "America" in any of those countries names. Thinking about it, there's only one country in the world which is commonly referred to as "America", which contains the word "America" in its proper name. Based on those two bits of information, which country do you suppose I'm referring to?

It's also kind of hard to miss that of your examples, none of those people would be referred to as "Americans" based on their continent of origin, considering that Chile and Costa Rica are South American countries, while Canada is most definitely a North American country (Protip: there are two "American" continents, not one).

On the other hand, two countries in North America use the words "United" and "States". That being the case, why do you insist on belittling the United Mexican States, by insinuating that the only "United States" that matters is the one ending in America? Especially when the two names are even more similar in Spanish (Estados Unidos Americanos and Estados Unidos Mexicanos).

Here's a thought. If you'd like to rename a country, rename your own. We're quite happy here with the name we have, but we'll let you know if we need your assistance in coming up with a new one.

Re:Are you American?

[NiteShaed]

I'm sorry, which of those countries has the word "America" in their actual name?

Bonus question, how many countries in North America actually have the words United States in their names. Hint, more than one.

If you're passionate you'll get out of IT

[phocutus]

I've been working on UNIX/SysAdmin/InfoSec/development/DBA since I was 15 back in 95. Dealing with various politics, Good O' Boys club, racism, sexism, budget issues, morons in management, unrealistic deadlines, and pager calls, merges, buy-outs, hacks, and illegal operations of company polices (of some major corporations). I realized I was anti-social, hated what I did, the tech controlled my life, and I felt I lost myself into the world of consumer America. I thus, now treat it as a job and nothing else, I since feel liberated and am expanding my mind. How to adjust with a pay cut? Simple, don't be a techy nerd and flaunt your American cash everywhere. I've embraced being a minimalist. I have one laptop, I reduced my living expenses as minimalistic as possible (I read books & music than pay for T.V.) walk and take public transit. This has made me interact with people more. I realized working 8hrs a day and coming home I didn't need to pay $60 for a constant connection. I thus, use my phone's connection if I needed the net at home (iphone tethering rocks). I have budgeted my money to live close to bare bones with a percentage for going out and having a few luxuries (dinner out, movie rental, etc. money for occasions NOT materialistic items). The remainder? It goes into a 5yr plan that in five years I have enough saved where I can pay myself to go to college full-time to change careers and be introduced into a new circle of people of what I'm interested in. On the other hand, if I wanted to change into another career that saved money would help as a 'buffer'. It just takes dedication and a plan and sticking to both. If you're serious you'll make it happen. As for myself I hope for when I'm 35, I have a new fun filled adventure :) Hopefully one I'm not burnt out on. As another posted pointed out: "You can be good at something, but you may not necessarily like it or be passionate about it anymore"

I did. And I'm happy.

[Reeses]

I gave up an 12 year-old career in IT (check my uid. It's proof). It eventually got to the point where I could see my future, and the future of the industry, and I wasn't that enthused with what I saw. So, I jumped.

Quit my job, enrolled in grad school, and am completely changing careers. I'm finding it's pretty easy to leverage my IT knowledge in another field because I'm able to easily assess what is and isn't possible. There are a lot of industries out there that drank the IT Kool-Aid pretty late in the game, and a number of people who have no idea what it's capable of. Given the current market, anyone who can see through the fog of IT and can suggest actual solutions that make or save money (or both, ideally) can generally make a good go of it.

So, will I miss no longer being in IT, no. Will I always think in IT terms? Probably. I now just apply it in more creative terms.

I don't even miss the money, because I don't think the work/life trade-off was worth whatever supposedly "inflated" salary I had.

I'd be willing to go into more detail, but I don't know what would come of it. I know I'm happier so far.

Enjoy or hate

[Anonymous Coward]

Fairly simple: you either like your job or you don't. If you like doing what you do, you will be happy with outcomes of your work. You don't, then it must be hard for you to actually achieve anything in your line of work.

If you're not happy doing what you do (blame your boss, management, environment, etc), you better pack up quick and find yourself an environment that you fit.

Happy? Continue doing what you do, improve as much as you can and enjoy.

Enjoy.

Hinduism in Software

[Anonymous Coward]

With many Indian software engineers in the global software industry, and most of them being Hindu, this should not come as a surprise!

http://picasaweb.google.com/[my username here snipped for privacy]/UcAsTE?authkey=[generated part of the URL here snipped for privacy]#

catch the "caste" in the middle of the URL! "as in, What's ur caste buddy?"!! - "ucAsTE?!!"

https://mail.google.com/mail/?zx=&shva=1#inbox

catch the "shva" (shiva!) in the middle!

Also, the Google "Chrome" browser has "Om" in the middle! Chr"Om"e!

As a side note, "Google" may also be interpreted as "Good-gle", "God-gle"
So much for the company that wants to do "good things for the world"!

Sales Engineering

[Corporate T00l]

In HS and college, I loved participating in programming competitions. Sales engineering is the first time that I've really duplicated that kind of experience, and gotten paid big bucks for it. The work inherently involves working with people. You are introduced to a constant stream of new businesses and problems to solve. And as far as verbal appreciation goes, sales reps can totally dish that out. If you're able to hack it and your deals are closing, your deeds will be widely acclaimed. There is a downside that if you're deals aren't closing, you'll be out of a job.

You won't regret it!

[Anonymous Coward]

I had previously worked in IT for over 12 years... the last decade with the phone company.
I resigned in May 2009 to re-pursue something I gave up to enter IT, Music.
I am now out of IT completely, and enjoying being a professional musician again.

I don't miss the shenanigans of the phone company, or the massive piles of excrement, once called management initatives.
While the pay was nice ... nobody's called me (or paged) since, and I love it!
I don't run a home laboratory now, and the extra electricity is being happily used by others, I'm sure.

the phone company, can eat my shorts!

Ministry

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's just say it was a God-send and forgive the pun, but I left IT for the ministry. I have been pastoring a rural church now for 2 years after being laid off from my last IT gig. I had 9 years experience working IT when I was let go. Hasn't been a problem though. If the phone's gotta ring at 3 in the morning, I'd much rather it be about someone that's dying than someone's Cisco switch that went bad.

Don't let fear stop you...

[Anonymous Coward]

I walked away from a six-figure IT job at a major software company last year because, frankly, enough was enough. All day working with US colleagues, half the night working with the offshore teams, 7 days a week, and constant, constant churn in the form of products, reorgs, managers, crisis of the day, etc... I got interested in neuroscience a while back, and I started trying to pursue it, but realized that there was absolutely no way I could half-ass that kind of change. Cutting my company loose was the scariest thing I've ever done, especially in this economy. I've gone through all of my savings in the last year keeping my mortgage up while trying to sell my house. The good news is that I have sold it. I close one day before the first mortgage payment I would have missed is due. In the mean time, I've managed to get some preliminaries out of the way at a local community college, and I'm heading off to a major university in the fall to enter their neuroscience program. This has been one of the toughest years of my life, but, I've never been happier. When I solve a tough problem now, I am the beneficiary, not my company. I spend my time pursuing things that interest me, not rescuing someone or something from disaster. I'm getting enough sleep for the first time since I can remember, and I'm cleaning up a lot of things in my life that I never had time to make right. The ONLY thing I miss about my career is the money and benefits, and I'm pretty sure I'll get those back again in the future - a future doing something rewarding.
You are right, changing careers, especially right now, is "iffy", but don't let that stop you. Constantly questioning what you do, your sanity for doing it, etc... is incredibly demoralizing, and you aren't going to like what you've become if you do it long term. Unless you really, really like the working conditions in IT, move on! Let IT solve it's own problems!

I felt like an employee too!

[freaker_TuC]

I've tried multiple times to get my opinion known with dozens of ways, but the result is still I resigned from my own dreams ...

One can be partner on paper, but if there is no serious and professional cooperation .. opinions won't matter at all.

I'm relieved I stopped this madness before I passed a dozen years of hell and non-realistic deadlines.

Whoops!

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting to undo borked moderation.

IT support is IT prostitution

[grantph]

I noticed that the general tone of this thread is around IT support (networking, sysadmin, pc support, etc.)

I've always been good at all of these things and made the mistake of taking on a few IT support clients to supplement my custom development business thinking "this is easy". What a MISTAKE that was! The pay was okay but the money wasn't worth it for the unnecessary stress. IT support is such a mundane and thankless field. It's the same crap day in, day out. Printers don't work, network drives are down, Updates didn't install properly, some moron can't change the toner on a printer, blah blah blah. It's completely reactive and quickly ruined my motivation. Anyhow, it essentially ruined the rest of my IT business for a period.

Thankfully I extracted myself from IT support (hitting a few angry clients along the way) and I can honestly say IT support is simply not worth the money. I've even gone to the point of avoiding friends and family that want any kind of support. Now I act completely oblivious when someone bitches about their IT problem. If you can't fix it yourself, don't look at me! I now liken IT support to prostitution. You're selling your brain at a high price for very little in return (just the cash) and a lot of stress. In fact, you'd probably be better off selling your body because at least most clients would be satisfied!

BUT don't confuse "IT Support" with IT in general. IT is just a tool. There are plenty of other aspects to IT other than support that can be rewarding. The trick is to find new and exciting industries and apply that IT tool in creative ways. Personally, I'm currently applying that tool to child care and having a hell of a lot of fun doing it.

http://www.criticalyears.com/

Just avoid the support side of IT at all costs!

Your outside life may contain your exit path

[beachdog]

Your life outside of computers may suggest a career for you.

My switch from IT to special ed aide is partly for a retirement benefit and partly based on 18 years as parent of a special ed kid and partly due to no more hiring pull from the computer field.

I was laid off (or fired) from a low level web site monitor job and I wasn't getting much interest in my resume. So I took the opportunity to begin working as a special education aide or Paraeducator. My 18 years of home experience with my daughter was my preparation for this career change.

While the pay is modest, I have the prospect of vesting for a very small pension (If I avoid physical injury from lifting kids, etc.) as this is a Union Position. That is better than any of the numerous temporary IT jobs I held.

I think a feature of this career switch is everyday I work with absolutely individual unique kids. Every one of them reveals another aspect of what it is to be human and how learning takes place. Norbert Weiner, Piaget, operational amplifiers, missing feedback loops, language processing, visual processing. So many subtle things one can see every day.

While I am just an aide, the kids you meet in this work are really interesting in a way that is parallel to how computers are really interesting machines.

I'd also mention

• Shop Class as Soul Craft

by Matthew Crawford as interesting philosophy. I got a copy by book reserve from the local county public library.

Now I sell Shaved Ice..

[TombGuard]

I used to be in IT field.. most of my job dealt with problems. So I quit and opened a Shaved Ice stand 6 years ago.. best move ever. First few years were tough as I worked every day. Now I'm off on weekends and half day Fridays! People are always happy to see me and the hours are set. (IT field can have you working at night and weekends)

Tech Writing is a Great Opportunity

[wvh]

I already had an undergrad degree in writing before I got my CS degree, and enjoyed IT/sysadmin/sys-programmer work for years. However, I truly "found myself" by combining my CS/IT knowledge with writing about it. Most software companies "need" a writer (whether they know it or not), and being a techie is an asset across the board. Documenting software for end-users is often viewed as a non-critical effort, but customers seem to like it ;-) I've also ended up doing product management work for various companies due to my user/product focus - it's a great space to be in. Similarly, I've also written a bunch of nerd books on various topics as a sideline. Feel free to contact me oofline for more verbose info, and some xrefs.

A real ITer?

[TheMaTrIxBEL]

Leave, please do, if you can see yourself not doing IT, your not a real ITer (don't get me wrong, you might be skilled and good at it) but in the beginning, there was Geeks, geeks became ITers, they were few. Golden times for the geeks, they didn't care to much about the money, they just loved their work. Then, others saw money was to be made and an influx of people, who don't give a hoot about anything IT but the money that could be made, and were smart enough to learn some skills, started entering the industrie en masse. Golden days of IT were over, corporate bullshit took over, because these fake ITers took every chance they could take to climb the management ladder, creating management jobs if there weren't any, while the real geeks were left doing what they love doing, now getting bugged and annoyed by IT managers that shouldn't even exist. Now that there isn't as much money to be made in IT, only the real ones will remain, a real ITer, a real geek, is incapable of doing anything else, and would never change jobs for more money. They might change to go from unemployment to something else, but if they can then switch back to IT, even for less money, they will. Question now, are you a real ITer that has lost or forgotten his inner geek. Or are you one of the fake money wolves that ruined the business, and now that managed to ruin it, wants to leave for another industrie to ruin.

now buy Creative Recreation Mid Male Shoes

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.tntshoes.com

real question: can you live on £16k to &poun

[vaporland]

I agree that both unions and corporations abuse their power - absolute power corrupts absolutely. At the same time, what do you say to someone trying to survive on £16k to £18k a year in the UK or $25-$45k a year in the USA?

Re:real question: can you live on £16k to &a

[Xest]

You can survive on that, although you're certainly not going to live an extravagant lifestyle- you wouldn't expect a nice detached house or annual holidays. Surely though that's the price paid for never bothering to learn any skills other than the absolute basic minimum?

For reference the average wage of a graduate is £25,000 in the UK- I don't really think that's out of touch for the additional 3 to 6 years additional education they may have done and hence the higher level of ability they will have likely achieved. There's an argument the poor can't afford education, but that's certainly not the case in the UK, if you're on that wage and don't have a degree you can get financial support to do an entire degree with the Open University. There are also a lot of shorter free courses for people in that situation too. Effectively, being low skilled and hence low paid is a choice these people make as there are options to change that if they wish.

Oh, because IT people have GREAT people skills.

[gosand]

The medical field need serious help... but not from ex-IT people. Unless of course you were one of those people who jumped on the IT bandwagon 10 years ago because you heard you could make good money at it. If that's the case, then you didn't belong here anyway. Believe me, I've thought about getting out of it too, sometimes it just isn't fun anymore. But I think it could be a lot worse elsewhere, so I'm staying put.

Actually, I've strayed from my pure IT roots in my job - I'm a manager now. I manage a testing team. It has taken me a while to develop the skills at it, and to NOT see everything as a technical problem... but it's been good. I went from Unix shell scripting right out of college ('93) to system testing, then a few other technical testing roles, learning about process improvement, management, etc. etc. The money situation kind of took care of itself a few years ago when the economy nosedived. I'm making less now than I was 5 years ago. But I am very happy with my job, and I have stayed true to my tech roots... Linux has been my OS of choice at home for 10 years now.

But in the end - do what YOU want. Sometimes taking a huge leap is a great thing, and can change your life.

Re:real question: can you live on £16k to &a

[vaporland]

I guess I was thinking more of the person just starting out in their career - until you log some experience, you'll be working lower level jobs making lower level pay. Granted, not everyone is going to be rocketing to the top of the org chart, but even here in the US, people just out of college and looking for jobs are scraping the bottom of the salary barrel.

And they still have to pay their college loans...

Shift!

[ResidentSourcerer]

I'm starting my third career.

I started as a school teacher. Got burned out after a decade.

Went to work as a lab tech at the University physics dept,
just in time to be there for the transition of vax + dos running terminal programs to unix boxen.

Did that for 15 years.

Now I'm a tree farmer.

That doesn't make me a living yet, but this year we sold about
$20K worth of trees with operating expenses about half that.

In winter I do some web work and freelance photoshop.

My wife supports me -- she's a freelance editor.
The house is paid for. The truck is paid for. The car is
paid for next spring. We have no debt on the tree farm. (One of the things we agreed to when I started it.)

We're not hurtin' but we aren't maxing out our RRSP's either. It will be a few years yet before we do the kitchen reno. I'll probably do the bathroom reno after Christmas. Did
the bedroom and converted a half bath to full bath last
year.

So: My advice to you:

* Figure out what your new income is going to be.
* Set up an automatic withdrawal on your bank account
to transfer to savings enough money to make your present IT
salary the same as your projected salary.
* Live on this for 6 months. Meanwhile this builds up a
cushion account, which if you are like me is a huge stress reliever.

If you are going to need retraining for your new career:
Ask your boss if you can go part time. If you are a 24/7
business they may be quite happy to allow this especially
if you are willing to take the crap shifts that most people
don't want. They also may give you your walking papers the
same day, so don't do this until a month before your training
starts.

Re:real question: can you live on £16k to &a

[Xest]

I think that's another area where students are quite fortunate in the UK, whilst they complain about student fees the majority of their degree is still subsidised. The average student debt is around £15,000 but they don't have to start paying it back until they earn a decent wage.

What most students seem to miss though is that even if they worked part time they could actually come out of uni with zero debt by paying off their loan whilst they do their degree- unfortunately that means less partying and more hard work and most of them would rather just party lots, work little and then moan about the loan afterwards when they have no choice to pay it back!

It's always hard at first, but as I say even then in the UK the average national starting salary for a graduate is £25,000 which is above the national average wage which IIRC is around £21k to £23k so students oddly aren't actually the worst of in the UK at least. I don't know how the stats compare for average graduate starting wages vs. national average wages in the US though, any idea if it's quite different? Is the average graduate starting salary below the national average wage over there?

Re:real question: can you live on £16k to &a

[vaporland]

Maybe not so good. Quoting this link:

Graduates of the college Class of 2009 may not be as lucky as previous grads when it comes to finding jobs after graduation. Due to the current economic recession, stock prices are plummeting and the unemployment rate has soared to a high of 7.2 percent. Consumers have curbed their spending habits, resulting in a reduction in demand for goods and services.

Earlier this academic year, employers ... reported that hiring for new graduates will remain flat compared to last year. This ... suggests that average starting salary offers will be flat as well. Last year at this time, the average starting salary to all bachelor's degree graduates was $49,300, representing a 4 percent increase from the previous year.

And there's this:

Two-thirds of bachelor's degree recipients last year graduated with an average debt of about $23,000, according to Finaid.org, a financial aid website.

Total debt for borrowers with graduate or professional degrees ranges from $30,000 to $120,000, Finaid.org says. New graduates face an even more unforgiving job market. Employers expect to hire 22% fewer graduates from the class of 2009 than they hired from the class of 2008, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers.

Change ...

[twoHats]

You must change your mind grasshopper - I suggest LSD...

Leave the country and downsize your life

[Anonymous Coward]

After 13 high pressure years at a major university and 3 more years in an IT executive position, At 37, I had had enough of it all. I sold my house, quit my job, liquidated most of what I owned and moved to Costa Rica. Life is relatively cheap but if I did it again, I'd move to Nicaragua where the costs are 1/3 of Costa Rica. Anyhow...the point is, don't let your job run your life. Work to live don't live to work. I still do a little consulting remotely. It earns enough to put beer in the fridge and pay the bills. It is a drastic step but considering the direction the government and the economy are heading, I'd rather be watching the disintegration from the sidelines than getting sucked down with the ship when it sinks.

IT may be shrinking but the tech is changing

[Anonymous Coward]

The biggest problem with IT is that alot of people in it have and overinflated sense of professional worth. Not everyone but this question makes me think of all the difficult tools I've worked with. Overweight or socially inept in some way, defensive and abrasive, sarcastic but not in a funny way.
As server, storage and even networking technologies consolidate there is less of a need for a tech guru who can build a server from scratch or maintain a legacy system since even as those continue to exist they just die.
It is becoming more of a service industry and the skill set demands this in order to impart expectations to your customers. If you don't learn that here. You're just going to have to learn it the hard way in a field you don't understand with more dynamic people who aren't going to put up with your garbage.

IT to blue collar

[Schrambo]

up untill about 2 years ago I was heavily pushing my career into IT, thinking that it was all I wanted to do. starting off as just PC repairs, Help Desk and stepping up to an Administration role I soon realised that it wasn't really for me. I always had the passion for IT and still do but did not enjoy the stress and pressures the job and further training always added. Not to mention having to do particular things that I did not enjoy particuarly how I only ever wanted to do was *nix based work but unfortunately it was very difficult to find positions that suited me. Since then I have swapped to a more blue collar / white collar job working for RFD Australia where I work alot with my hands doing much more physical work. Feeling much happier and more of a sence of accomplishment at the end of the day I am actually now making slightly more money now in a traineeship role than I was in my last IT job.

unions

[phorm]

"Similarly, unions have a habit of protecting people at work regardless of the merit of that."

Overly high wages and other such things have never really been a problem in most of the unions I've known, the pay rates for most positions was less than a similar private sector.
Being un-firable, however, was a major issue. The whole system resolves around seniority, so being around longer means more perks. You tend to get higher pay and are less able to be fired. The good part of this is that you can't take somebody who's dedicated his/her life to the company and shitcan them because you've decided to replace them with some guy from out-of-country at 20% of the wage. The bad part is when you get those that are just hanging around your last few years waiting for retirement - or that are obviously working below their capabilities - and have some fairly major personality issues, yet there's not glaringly apparent reason to fire them.

Guess what though, this happens in the private non-union sector too. I had a positions where the lead programmer was an egocentric asshole - even the boss admitted as much - but he had entrenched himself with code that others couldn't easily maintain and nobody could work with him long enough to figure all his little $secrets. We had techs/admins that were not bad workers, but got loaded with so much drop-by shit that they got overloaded and made mistakes. There was also plenty of nepotism or hiring-of-friends, back-patting, and favours to go around. One thing that didn't tend to happen as much in the union jobs though, is getting screwed with constant (unpaid) OT because the company decided to save bucks by cheaping out in some fashion or another.

So when I think of whatever might be bad in a union job, there's the same crap for non-union jobs, and sometimes worse. It might just be a little less visible. No job is always rosy. Overall though, I've found that people tend to be a bit nicer and/or happier in union environments. Not because of pay, or even because they're hassle-free, but because of the little things that tend to make life a bit more bearable.

Do your best to enjoy the good little things, and to ignore the other bad little things, and try not to be like the people that drive you crazy. Seriously, some of the people I know that complain the most about others are in turn the biggest jerks to those under them

8 more months until I'm a Doctor.

[Anonymous Coward]

Over 5 years ago I quit IT as 3rd line NT & Solaris server admin. Begin a student again is difficult with family considerations, but I had always wanted to become a doctor and decided to give it a shot. Luckily I was accepted as a mature age student (32y) and in only a few short months I shall graduate (hopefully) with the M.D. degree (no more white coats - infection risk.) :-(

To anyone who wants to persue a dream. Get off your butt, prepare and just do it. You will always find a way to take care of the basics (food / shelter / clothing). Sorry if it sounds a bit harsh but sometimes it just needs to be said. You only have 1 life so go out and live it.

I opened a cybercafe

[h00manist]

Well I tried just being broke and doing very little freelance work for a while, which I kind of liked. I moved to Sao Paulo. I tried doing translating, which was OK too. I taught English, which I didn't really like too much. Now I opened a cybercafe. It's OK, but this branch of business is going away as Internet-access hardware is just appearing everywhere, so I need some additions to increase the income. I do sell coffee and cake and sweets. I'm starting to help kids put up videos, photos, websites. Perhaps I'll start doing pc tech stuff a little again, or teaching internet-use classes.

HFT

[mahadiga]

Have you considering making a career in High Frequency Trading