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DeCSS Author Arrested
TyFoN sent us a link to a CNN story where you can read that the author of DeCSS was arrested for violating copyright law. If anyone can find something in English, I'd really appreciate it... the usual translation engines seem to be less then enchanted with norwegian. Update: here's an English version of said story.
This is truly a sad day.
"Being alive is a crock of shit." --Kilgore Trout
Am I wrong or is this simply a pseudo-repeat of the article 2 or 3 ones down which is from the guy's mouth.... or is this the actual author this time? Why is this article not psoed on the english CNN?
was he/she arrested in his/her native country or here is the US?
His father was arrested because he owns the site on which DeCSS was posted. A mobile phone and two computers were also taken.
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
The article has a reader feedback poll. Could someone make a stab at translating it, I want to know which way to vote.
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Open mind, insert foot.
Could anyone give me a URL to a good translator please. I would really like to read this article.
Well, things are starting to get a bit out of hand. Before I mumble on about real issues I would like to ask a question. What is the best way to protect your personal possessions from theft, 1) Buy good locks for your doors and windows, or 2) Leave the door open and sue anyone who steals anything.
This is no longer about Jon Johansen, or the cracking of DeCSS, this is about Abuse of privilege. In any country the legal system is paid for by the people and is there to protect the people and other legal entities (including corporations). The legal system is not there to replace adequate safe guards, do we complain when prisoners start law suits at the publics expense because they got the wrong kind of peanut butter? Do we complain when able-bodied people call an ambulance to take them for a checkup? The answer to this is yes (I hope) because it's abuse of the system. In the same way we should protest that entities like the MPAA think they can throw their weight around at the public's expense due to little more then their own failings, yes I know they pay for their own lawyers but the courts etc. all come from the taxpayer.
The issues surrounding the right to access legal acquired information etc. have been covered in other posts, but I would like to bring to people's attention another abuse of the CSS system. The CSS system is there to protect against piracy and to enforce the region coding system. I am angered by the abuse of the region coding system, a DVD disk costs about twice as much in the UK as it does in the US, and quite often does not have as many added extras (interviews, clips etc..). The region coding system forces us to buy often inferior products at always exaggerated prices. Naturally a booming market in imported DVD's and 'chipped' players sprung up but the MPAA lobbied the British government into a large scale crackdown of the 'Grey imports'. Once again taxpayer money wasted in support of big business screwing over the overage joe.
For these reasons I will continue to host a mirror at http://www.exaflop.org and urge other mirror owners to email me and pass on their URLs to aid in the construction of a larger list of mirrors. The MPAA and it's members need to learn three lessons, 1) Attempting to control legal use of a legally purchased product is futile, 2) They cannot continue to abuse privilege, 3) There is no putting of the baby back into the womb once it has been born.
Yes, behold the power of greedy corparte america and its deep pockets and lawyers with no conscience.
Ok, what i'm gonna propose
is to organize a meeting in norway,
the maxmimum number of person should come,
to discuss what we can do,
and do it...
I'm personnaly living in france,
and i'm ready to come.
Here's a link for more information (free login required)
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I was always under the impression that Norway did not do this kind of stuff. They seemed (do they still?) to have a very open stance on crypto and other such issues and have been rated highly by people who monitor 'internet rights' as I could no-so-eloquently put it.
This seems to be an about turn over what Norway has been doing in the past, which AFAIK has been almost nothing to regulate computer and internet use.
One wonders how much pressure the Norwegian Government has received to do this, if any at all, and if they have, then from who? The US Government? The MPAA?
Folks, the first article was about his house being raided by the pigs. This article is about his actual arrest. Although I can't read Norwegian, the Slashdot header seems to indicate that Jon is currently imprisoned for writing code.
I just heard on Norwegian radio news that Jon will not be held economically responsible, which must be a great relief. As for the Norwegian CNN article, it doesn't hold much more new information. It does though, as most other Norwegian media today, "point out" that the main use of DeCSS is to copy DVD discs illegally (of course it never mentions the price of blank DVD disks, the price of burners, and the size of the actual movies).
:)
I also completely understand it if "outsiders" get the idea that most Linux users are ruthless piracy freaks, after reading all the mindless articles around.
Jon is even on the front page of the largest (I think) norwegian tabloid paper today. Our "economic crime" police division (ØKOKRIM) shows it's pathetic servile attitude in doing anything that the mighty Americans tell them to. One can only hope that this tragic case opens the eyes of people to what a fight for people's rights it really is!
A norwegian Linux related page runs a petition for Jon, and it seems to be going really well. The wheels are in motion!
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
The point is: the guy didn't do anything illegal. He just created a program which could be used for something illegal. If he's arrested for copyright violation, then all manufacturers of any kind of weapons should be arrested for murder.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
The article in question says just about the same as the VG story already translated in the previous /. article. Here's a translation of the poll, asking "Should cracking protection codes be punishable?"
"Ja, det er derfor kodene er der" = "Yes, that's why the codes are there"
"Nei, mediegigantene overbeskytter seg" = "No, the media giants are being overly protective"
"Bare hvis det utnyttes kommersielt" = "Only if it's used commercially".
--
--
"It's natural to expect there might be people doing stupid things with computers." - Michael Vatis, NIPC/FBI
of the movie Rollerball with James Caan.
In that movie, corporations ran entire cities/countries. They were the government.
The more stories like this, the more that the movie is somewhat prophetic.
Jon and his father have not been arrested. They've "simply" had charges placed on them. Even if Norway is probably the closest Europe comes to communism, we still don't arrest people without a fair trial (except for temporary periods, which often lasts for months or years.. humm... I'll probably be shot by government droids now :)
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
I thought the agreement was that he would be immune from prosecution as long as he stopped developing DeCSS? Did I miss something?
Who am I?
Why am here?
Where is the chocolate?
What is your Slash Rating?
I'll be wearing mine proudly come next casual day :-).
And I think it's time to add links to those Court documents pointed-out here recently :-).
This shouldn't have been posted as a new separate story, it's really just an update to the original "Jon Johansen Indicted..." one IMHO.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
CNet: Court blocks online publishing of DVD decryption tool... yes.. a truly sad day.
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
I, for one, didn't read the other article and found this post useful. Since I don't have time to read everyt article I don't see where an occasional cross/repost is harmful (barring spam-level proportions)
Ok so this guy is being prosecuted in Norway, but this action no doubt was prompted to influence the case(s) in the US.
If it is decided that DECSS is illegal due to being illegally reversed engineered, the reason being the person doing the reverse engineering clicked on a licence agreement, well will it not effect the whole of the shrink wrap software industry.
How does company A get thier software to write the file format of company B. Well by reverse engineering it of course. This is one example, but there must be hundreds of precidents of reverse engineering of software and hardware with the standard shrink wrap licence.
So does this mean for example Microsoft can be sued by the makers of Word Perfect as to use the software they must have clicked on the licence agreement first. Or Microsoft can then sue anyone that tries to write software that can write thier file formats, or interface to thier protocols.
It makes you wonder, doesn't it, replace the words DECSS and the two parties names by any large company and any peice of software and you can see the simularity.
Maybe the software industry will realise this and rally behind us.
Or maybe they would like to see application barriers to entry being backed by the legal system. In the short term this is great for the corporations but in the long term it will hurt them and also the consumer looses out totally.
Ice Tiger
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
If I woke up as CmdrTaco and found this news I would post it too before having seen that it was already posted during the night. Its an emotional issue, probably the most important one ever to have the Linux and Slashdot communities at the center. This fight is about our right to be who we are, and persecution 16 year old - for no other reason then that he and his friends were smarter than a multi-billion dollar industry - must never be forgotten.
The article from Norwegian CNN looks like the same one that was linked from the last thread from Norwegian newspaper VG. Someone posted a translation here. It is a pretty good article, and includes Jon correction that DeCSS is not "a crack that allows copying of DVDs", but "a crack that allows _playing_ of DVDs". We have to continue to spread that message whenever we talk the press. This is not, and was never, about piracy.
This does mean war people, and it is just the beginning. The Information society _cannot_ both preserve the flows of information and enforce the appropriation of it, and as long as industry and government continues to kling to this contradiction, the costs to freedom will be without limit. As of yet, these are only a few paranoid associations who have not yet been actually threatened to the life: and yet they are ready to take it to the level of abusing the rights of a 16 year old. When the shit truly hits the fan, everything we love here stands to be lost.
I'm very afraid that when the overhyped overpriced Internet companies of today cannot live up to the growth and revenue they have promised, we will become the scapegoats. If your information company is loosing money, blame piracy and try to get the punishments lifted. If your Internet company is loosing money, blame cacheing, deep linking, and the use of Agents until it becomes illegal to link to a page on the WWW without permission (a violation of the very idea behind the media, not to speak of Freedom). If your tech company isn't making money, try to increase the already outdated patent laws beyond any possible rhyme and reason.
Can they win? Of course not. The genie is out of the bottle, and now that we have had glimpse of Freedom, we will never be giving up. The question is how much damage they can do to the world on the way down, and the answer is frightening.
-
We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
The poll on the right asks: "Do you think that it ought to be a criminal offence to crack protection codes?" The options are: (1) "Yes, that's why they're there." (2) "No, the media giants are over-protecting themselves." (3) "Only if it is exploited commercially."
The police has confiscated two of his computers and his cellular phone, and he has given his passwords to the police.
We really need to fight this!
The Question:
Should it be punishable to break
copy protection?
the voting options:
1. Yes, it should be punishable
2. No, the mediagigants are overprotective
3. Only if used commercially
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(Disclaimer: I'm Swedish so I might have gotten the exact wording wrong)
--
M-x all-hail-emacs RET
I have thus far held off on buying a DVD drive for my system because it would be next to useless on it. In the environment that makes this whole decss flap possible, I've decided that the only real way to avoid trouble is just to never buy any product that incorporates copy protection of this nature. If the industry wants to offer me the choice of watching it in Windows or not at all, I'll choose not at all, thanks, and go with content created by independent authors posted on the Internet. I will never buy an encrypted DVD or DVD-CD, I will never buy a DVD device and because I question the morality of anyone who could work for a group like the RIAA in the face of shit like this, I will never hire anyone who worked for them.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
No offense to Norwegian readers, but don't the Norwegian authorities regret their collaboration/alliance with Nazi Germany?
Haven't they learnt from history that individuals are not supposed to be supressed? The UN & EC (member?) Charter of Rights, an probably the Norwegian constitution all guarantee freedom of speech.
It is highly contentious that anti-cracking laws (if they even apply) could override freedom-of-speech. And dangerous too.
I will hope the Norwegian authorities treat him decently (after a 6 hour interrogation?) and release him on his own recognizance. Charitably, I will hope they are just doing this for a test-case.
-- Robert
Oh come off it already. Karma is not the dick measuring contest you think it is, despite your best efforts. I'm not sure if you know this, but other users can't even see your karma. The only people that "fish" for karma are the morons that troll around pointing it out, as well. So either post things of substance or don't post at all.
--
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
original article: http://www.cnn.no/TEKNOLOGI/IT/0001/25/5838915.htm l
CNN NORWAY -- 16-year lod Jon Johansen broke the codes which protect DVD-disks. Now mediagiants like Sony, Warner and Disney want to punish the norwegian. Monday he spent 7 hours in police questioning.
"We have filed charges against Jon and Per Johansen on behalf of MPA and DVD CCA", confirms lawyer Espen Tøndel from Simons Musæus to Verdens Gang.
Motion Picture Association (MPA) is the organisation representing the interests of USA's seven largest movie producers: Walt Disney, Sony Pictures, MGM, Paramount Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studio and Warner Bros.
DVD CCA controlls and protects copyrights on DVD products.
Jon and his father are charged with violating copyrights and penalcodes [sic!] after the 16-year old participated in an international ring that developed and distributed the program DeCSS. The program makes it possible to copy DVD movies.
"The charges are invalid. The codes on DVD disks do not provide copy protection, but play-back protection. All that we've done is to make it possible to play back DVD on our computers", Johansen told Verdens Gang after being released from questioning monday evening.
The "agency to combat economic crimes" also searched the home of pupil Jon Johansen (16) from Steinsholt in Vestfold.
Johansen were forced to hand over his mobile phone, computers, a number of CD's and the passwords to the computers.
The District Attorney Inger Marie Sunde from the "agency to combat economic crimes" confirms to the Evening Post that a search warrant was obtained for searching the home of Jon Johansen.
Sunde says the agency takes a serious view of the type of crime that the 16-year has been charged with.
Johansen became known in computing circles last year when it became public knowledge that he had participated in the group MoRE that broke the codes which protect DVD movies
Already at that time, when Jon Johansen was 15, was he contacted by the firm Simonsen Musæus which asked him to remove the information about DeCSS.
Last week, MPA's view was supported in an american court of law, so that links to DeCSS had to be removed from several american webpages.
So far, they are the only ones in the world against whom charges have been filed, after MPA last week had their view confirmed in an american court that all internet-links to DeCSS had to be removed. But he does not regret that he came forward in full view after the news about DeCSS became known.
"Somebody has to fight this fight", he says and prepares for a long night.
Johansen has posted his version of the Agency's action on the website www.slashdot.org
CNN Norway has written this article with contributions from Verdens Gang.
The poll asks "Should it be illegal to break the protection codes?" and the three options are (from top to bottom):
-Yes, that's why the codes are there.
-No, the movie producers are overprotective
-Only if it is used for commercial purposes.
http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran
Does a passable job on norwegian.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
Second, the film industry is reneging on it's deal with the DeCSS people. The letter (published on Slashdot) made it clear no action would be taken against people who removed the source code from their site. This is sheer naked hostility, far beyond anything DeCSS could possibly warrant.
Third, IMHO, this is because of the Californian judge ruling against the trade secret motion by the film industry. I think they wanted blood, and went where they could get some. In short, it's legalised revenge for loosing in court. (I think this is what we should fear the most. It means that they believe themselves outside the law, and will seek revenge for every defeat they suffer in the courts.)
Lastly, this goes waaaay beyond DeCSS, the potental for piracy, or anything else. This is Corporate Government. Those who fear the "New World Order" of a World-wide government should open their eyes. It's here, but it's not the UN, the EU, or the NSA. It's Microsoft, Hollywood, AOL, and the other multinational giants. THEY are your "New World Order", not some dweeb in a suit who got voted in for that afternoon. By fearing Big Government, people put power into the large multinational, faceless Corporations. And they have become more powerful than any elected Government has ever been. What's more, you can't vote them out. Your representitives can't vote for impeachment. You are powerless. And the amusing thing? This was all possible, because people were scared of a few jelly-bean addicted nuts, stuck in an oval office with nothing to do but make prank calls on the radio.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This is going to be a landmark fight...this will help choose between a dark, corp. based planet, or one that an indivigual's rights are balanced against national and corp. rights. We loose this, and the people on this planet are screwed blue.
It sounds dramatic, but it really is.
ttyl
Farrell
CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
DeCSS is not illegal. No one has passed any law which this software breaks. This is just a bunch of unethical, profiteering gluttons flexing their "legal" muscles in an effort to scare him off. If that doesn't work and they actually try to bring him to crominal court, their case will deflate quickly because he hasn't broken the law.
This site DeCSS Central, has some very good information and insight into the DeCSS hoopla.
Plus some good Linux DVD related links.
-d9
If you're going to say that it's well established that an ISP cannot be held liable for content, it's wise to ask "In what country?" Besides, if they police themselves at all, then I think that changes the entire story. (Because they then could have policed themselves and removed the content they're in trouble for.)
Why am I suddenly reminded of the movie "Hackers"? ;)
:D
"Hack the planeeeet!!"
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
This might have been suggested before.
In the cases where the law can do nothing to help us (perhaps even inhibit us) with our own internet rights, the only action the internet user is capable of generating against corporate bullies is to raise awareness.
In the same way that we boycot spammers with the RBL and the UDP, a list of websites owned by communities who infringe the rights of net users that could be accessed by all net users could benefit. How many people actually KNOW about Amazon/Etoy/MPAA/etc? Probably the population of slashdot readers. How it should be implemented would have to be described, but if web proxy software could pop up "warning, you are about to enter a website of a known abuser of peoples rights, click here for the reason why", it would certainly gain attention.
Corporations are making more and more progress every year towards becoming more powerful than the governments that were put in place to stop them and other no goodnicks from hurting the people. It is about time that the federal government and the state governments bring the movie and music industries (and possibly closed-source software industry too) to justice for their abuse of individuals' rights. It is time for the people to put the corporations in their place. Individual rights and personal liberty are more important than the success of corporations/governments. I certainly hope that DeCSS will now be used by as many people to pirate as many dvd movies as possible to show the movie industry what happens when they step on people's rights.
When they ask me for my reason for returning it, I'll simply say, "They threw a Norwegian kid in jail for figuring out how one of these works. I'm not going to subsidize their lawsuits, so I'm boycotting DVDs and DVD players."
I really, really hate not having a cool toy like a DVD player, but screw it--I despise the behavior of these companies and I will not endorse their behavior by paying them for this technology.
I wonder what all else I'll have to stop using or buying, and I doubt I can make a difference, but so what? I'm not going to pay these companies to "protect" me from this kid.
--
This is not my sandwich.
Eh? You should really read some more history. Norway was INVADED by germany. Norway shot and sunk the german warship "blucher" when it was coming in the Oslo fjord.
The problem was that norway didn't have very much defence in those days. There were some cannons shooting at boats, and a pretty nifty resistance-movement, but except for that - nothing.
But - the government never ever supported nazi germany. The government the nazi instantiated of course did - it was lead by Quisling - who was executed after the war ended.
--
"Rune Kristian Viken" - arcade@kvine-nospam.sdal.com - arcade@efnet
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
I merely found it interesting that he posted the exact same messge in two separate threads. Did you know, there's this feature whereby you can embed html tags in your comments? I mean, I've even seen people use it to link to other relevent posts they may have written. The cross-post wouldn't have stood out so much if it wasn't a relatively long comment that I had just seen at the top of the thread a couple of stories down.
PS: If I believed that karma was a "dick measuring contest" as you point out, would I have posted a comment that was sure to be moderated down?
The Norway Post has a (very) short article in English.
The National Authority of Fraud Investigation(ØKOKRIM) yesterday searched the home of a 16-year old student in Vestfold.
Two personal computers were confiscated.
Both Jon Johnsen and his father were taken in for questioning last night, after they had been reported to the police by several large US multimedia companies.
Jon Johnsen became internationally known, after he cracked the code for copying DVD-films just before Christmas.
Both father and son are charged with violating the copyright laws, and could face up to 2-3 years in jail, according to VG.
Jon Johnsen was questioned for eight hours, and had to turn in his mobile phone, his pass words and several discettes.
He claimss that the charges are wrong. -The DVD codes are not copy-protection, but replay-protection, he says, claiming the companies are trying to infringe on his right to fredom of expression.
This really pisses me off.
Seems like if you have enough money, you can get whoever pisses you off a little bit arrested these days... People in general accusing others of next, it will be rich girls who wanna get revenge on their ex-boyfriends.
Eh...
This really pisses me off.
Seems like if you have enough money, you can get whoever pisses you off a little bit arrested these days... People in general accusing others of next, it will be girls who want to get revenge on their ex-boyfriends.
Eh...
This is getting way out of hand. The next thing we know it's going to be illegal to own a debugger and listen to your friends CDs that you borrow.
Here is a link to the Petition for Jon
http://linuxguiden.dhs.org/protest.php
Anyone capable of reading Norwegian, (or not) should sign up.
The difference between you and the major number
of slashdot poster is that they aren't politized.
and they aren't idiot
unfortunnaly you are.
The whole CNN story details the awful consequences that await you if you "hack your way through the codes meant to protect the products from downloading" (clueless, ain't it?) It presents NO arguments for the other side, it just describes the might of the recording companies who go for the boy, his father and everybody else in the freaking universe. I'm not normally paranoid, but this story might be a part of the same campaign it describes. Remember what CNN is and who it belongs to. Go figure.
Sorry for my sometimes bad english, but here goes:
- start of article -
Media giant threatens 16 year old computer genius
CNN Norway -- 16 year old Jon Johansen cracked the codes that protect the DVD discs. Now, mediagiants like Sony, Warner and Disney wants to punish the norwegian. This Monday he sat 7 hours in police interrigation.
- We have sued Jon and Per Johansen on behalf of MPA and DVD CCA, confirms Espen Tøndel, a lawyer at the lawfirm Simonsen Musæus.
Motion Picture Association (MPA) is the assocation
that preserves the interests of the 7 largest movie companies in the US; Walt Disney, Sony Pictures, MGM, Paramount Pictures, 20th Century Fox. Universal Studios and Warner Bros.
DVD CCA is the association that controls and protects the copyrights on DVD products.
Jon and his father is charged with violation of the copyright law, and the "punishment law", since
the 16 year old has participated in an internation ring that developed and distributed the program DeCSS. The program makes it possible to copy DVD-movies.
- The charges is wrong. The code on the DVD discs is not a copyprotection, but a playing protection.
We only made it possible to play DVD movies on our own computers, said Johansen to VG after he was released from the interrogation monday night.
Økokrim also searched the home of the 16 year old
school pupil, from Steinsholt in Vestfold.
Johansen had to give up his cell. phone, computers, CD's and all the passwords on his computers.
The State Attorney in Økokrim, Inger Marie Sunde,
confirms to Aftenposten
that the interrogation courts has given the police
it's permission for them to search the home of Jon Johansen.
Sunde says that Økokrim takes crime like Jon has been charged for, very seriously.
Johansen became a celebrity in the computer circles when it was learned that last year he had been a member of the group MoRE, that cracked the
protection codes to the DVD movies.
Already at that time, when Jon Johansen was 15, he
was contacted by the firm Simonsen Musæus, who asked him to remove the information regarding DeCSS.
Last week, the MPA got an approval in an American
court to remove all links to DeCSS from all American sites.
They (Jon and his dad) are the only ones in the world that have been charged, since the MPA got an approval from an American court to remove all Internet links to DeCSS. But he doesn't regret that he came out with his full name after the news
about DeCSS was known.
- Somebody has to fight this, he says, and prepares for a long night.
Johansen has posted his version about the Økokrim
actions on the website Slashdot.org
CNN Norway has written this article with the help of Verdens Gang.
- end of article -
(The top box contains some information about DVD,
while the second box ask your opinion on this case; Should it be a crime to crack protection codes; (top choice) yes, thats why the codes are there (2nd choice)no, the mediagiants are protecting themselves, (3rd choice) only if it is used commercially.
I'm just curious. Aren't the number of lines on british TVs greater than on american TVs? (Pal vs NTSC). So are British DVDs having more data and a better picture? The country code is an annoyance.
I agree this whole DSS is getting well out of hand.
I just took a look at the Norweigan article...at the bottom is a link back to the slashdot article:
h tml
;)
/their/ link back to the article, as an Anonymous Coward, the posts are all in flat mode at threshold 0. Consequently, of course the first posts I see are Anonymous Cowards posting people's email addresses and web sites and proclaiming that we should all "e-mail bomb" these people. I think that is the last thing we want to present to the public at large. Perhaps you could change the default Anonymous Coward threshhold to something like 2, to avoid presenting ourselves as wackos to the casual reader/public?
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/01/24/2024233.s
So apparently we have slashdotting reporters in our ranks
Anyway, when I follow
Jazilla.org - the Java Mozilla
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
This has me very very pissed off. I am boycotting all companies involved. I am going to "spam" them with letters. Note, not email. Handwritten! emails are rarely read. When you hand write mail, put it in an envelope, stamp it and post it. It takes effort. I am going to mail as much people as I can, the companies involved, law makers and what not. Surely, one person alone cannot make an impact, but if everyone can freaking speak with ACTIONS instead of typing away here. Maybe, something will happen. If nothing happens, at least it will be nice for them to know that they have a few thousand angry people at them. GAwd, If only I could be God for an hour.
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
I reckon the petition is meant for Norwegians only. It won't stand stronger when signed by hundreds of foreigners unable to understand what they've signed!
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
I followed Mitnick for years, but I still found it chuckle-able :)
------- What exactly is real?
PAL DVD: 702*576 24fps
When played, you get NTSC at 29.97 fps (inserting duplicate fields) but PAL at 25 fps by speeding everything up (yes, it's true :)
Now, judging from this, PAL DVDs are a lot better ... but. Often, the region 1 versions have higher bitrate and more content. Region 2 DVDs just have a lot of languages and subtitles ... and since bitrate is very important, I do import all my DVDs from DVD Boxoffice
it's in my head
By far, the easiest way to stop these people from ripping their CDs is to distribute MP3s. Just the popular songs, the ones they give out to radios. Would that be hard? And I don't understand why ripping DVDs is wrong. How many people are able to upload a DVD to their server? It seems that everyone has a web page, even little mom and pop stores that they use to make more money. Where are the audio and video distributors?
Cryptanalysis is a well established, time honored activity. Be afraid, be very afraid. Next time they'll outlaw electronics, because somebody can use the knowledge and build a radio receiver to intercept broadcasts of (horrors!) copyrighted material.
Moderate this down (-1, You Are Not A Cryptanalyst)
--
Industrial space for lease in Flatlandia.
Not having tried myself, I've heard the DVD players scramble the out signal so that you can't record a DVD movie into a VCR. So it may not be that simple :)
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
Then don't read them.
And the only karma you should be worrying about is your own.
the post should read "alleged author", should it not?
#include "sig.h"
Its obvious those that create movies do not want it togo the way of MP3s with hundreds of ftp servers serving up illegal MP3s. There reaction is total perdicatable, they want to nip this in the bud.
//+" and "Disc Muncher" all programs that were for sale that allowed you to make copies of apple //e flopies, even those that were copy protected. I don't think we need to go back to that era where each disc had its own copy protection which made them more likely to crash and made it more necessary to back them up. Those copy programs were for sale and legal. How was that different? (besides apple program writers didn't have a strong lobby?)
That being said, I think they're being ridiculous in there attemt to stop DeCSS.
I think back to the old days of "locksmith" and "Copy
That being said, stop pirating MP3s. Although tempting, it makes it way worse when anyone looks at the potential for piracy for a new medium and may be why the Riaa is totally overreacting. Now we have lawsuits and someone in jail..
Not buying DVDs wouldn't hurt either, but the picture is so good and the sound....
nothing easy.
Does anyone know if a legal defense fund for this programmer has been set up, or if this incident is being looked at by the EFF? if you aren't a member already then I would suggest joining.
But we will win the war. Here's how...
1) Start a new project, the "CSS Documentation Project" (or CDP for short) This project's stated goal is to document the techniques used by DeCSS for playing DVD's on Linux. Where will it get its information? The DeCSS source, of course. But not just any copy of the DeCSS source. You see, when DVD-CCA filed its nice little lawsuit against DeCSS, it included the DeCSS source in its filing. The court has to release that filing to the public, and did so. That filing, and everything in it, are now in the public domain, if I am not mistaken. What an excellent little loophole to slip through...
2) Now, this is very important: no actual code can appear in the documentation that the CDP creates. This is just to make sure MPAA and DVD-CCA can't do a damn thing about it.
3) Using the CDP's documentation, a new piece of software is written. It should probably pay homage to the original DeCSS in some manner or another. The point is, it should fill in the two holes which MPAA exploited:
That would be a constructive way of fighting the DVD-CCA. Of course legal funds for the DeCSS author are also good, and should continue to be pursued; he shouldn't have to suffer when he's committed no crime. But we need to work on this as well; a new version of the software that can't be attacked like DeCSS has.
Now, all we need is a real start for the project. Any vounteers?
First they attack people in America using the DMCA and the Trade Secret Act, using the fact that this kind of case hasn't been tried in Norvegian court up to now and with the help of a norvegian law expert, and when they manage to have a restraining order against us they attack the guy back home and they can point out that the American Justice is "supporting them".
I know that a restraining order is far from being a definite judgement, it just says that it may be illegal and it may harm the CCA so while waiting for the end of the trial you must not redistribute it, BUT the problem is that everybody don't know that and are therefore more easily manipulated into thinking the American law said it was criminal.
They really are vicious.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
We're almost there in the US. Gun makers are being sued into oblivion by city and state governments on the premise that they are responsible for violent crime and are liable for the government's costs in dealing with such crimes.
With that current precident, I'm not surprised that people making & distributing DeCSS and the like are being treated as pirates.
Here's the link: http://www.cnn.no/TEKNOLOGI/IT/ 0001/25/1505441.html
Talks of support being given by the EFF and Linux users worldwide.
Posted from a hillside in Herefordshire, England.
Watch what you say, in america they are trying to hold the gun manufacturers responsible for the killing that is caused by their guns.
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
The kid is definitely too young to be prosecuted in an American court. Unfortunately, I'm too old to get away with these things without prosecution. I'm also no longer under the free legal protection and dependancy status that college students enjoy. Yet I've integrated decryption and decoding in one step.
.c file but distributing any of the decoder without that one file violates the GPL. Perhaps we could get a consensus on allowing a binary form of the decoder to be distributed with decryption. The we could agree on distributing the source code of everything but the one .c file.
DVD playback is only possible if you decrypt and decode in one step. You can't decrypt the entire DVD and play the files off your hard drive because it's too slow. You can't cat the decrypted data through UNIX pipes because this doesn't allow seeking.
So what I've done is integrated decryption in the DVD decoder but I'm not allowed to distribute it because that would violate the GPL and I'm too old to avoid prosecution. The only way for a person like me to distribute it is as a binary.
The decryption engine is just one
In other words. DVD playback is only possible if you build the decryption into the decoder. We can have a tarball containing everything but one decryption file and a binary player which decrypts on the fly but we need to resolve the GPL issue.
Everyone reading Slasjdot should write polite letters to the editor(s) of any site carrying this story, and correct them. Get our point of view out there. I've noticed, for example, that Cnet's news.com seems to be more open to this sort of thing than most.
They need to know this is not about piracy or copying movies. This is about the freedom to find out how a piece of software works.
But if you do write, please do not flame the editors. That does more harm than not writing at all.
Don't throw your computer out the window, throw the Windows out of your computer!
Why arrest his father though ?
I don't know how it works in Norway, but if the hacker's a minor there in the eyes of the courts, arresting the father gives them someone who can face charges as an adult. Prosecutors could use this against the son to get him to plead guilty in exchange for charges being dropped against his dad.
It's a proud day when the megacorporations that make up the Motion Picture Association can use government officials to arrest a teen-ager for making them look bad.
Rogers Cadenhead (Web: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench)
Ok so what happens if this case is lost, and it is deemed illegal to reverse engineer anything because you must have had to click an agreement saying not to to install the thing right.
Now how software in the recent past have had these licences and how much software have had thier file formats and protocols reverse engineered recently. Now this does not just effect Open Source projects but any company, for example Microsoft vs AOL for the instant message protocol. Now suddenly the only thing they can do is agressively sue and couter sue each other just to survive. You would only be left with a monopoly in the US software industry that cannot be touched as they have application barriers to entry that are backed by the courts no less.
Open source will be ok as the projects can move offshore very easily, but US companies will be hamstrung and unable to compete with Internation software firms as thier laws will prevent them.
It is the same story with the bill being pushed through that says software companies cannot be held liable for thier products. It will create an industry in the US that does not care about quality, hence International and Open Source competition will prevail.
The US software and media industry should be careful what it asks for as it may just get it.
Ice Tiger
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
You will probably find that the US police, or the CIA or someone, contacted the Norwegian Police and asked them to arrest him for the crime, which they did. Depending on Norwegian Extradition treaties with the States, he may or may not be sent on trial. From what I read in the article, he was questioned and then let go again. I assume his equipment is still being held. However, again, I would say that the equipment will remain in Norway. It is just International Diplomacy.
Something similar happened here in Ireland when a college student sent a death threat to the President of the US. The CIA contanted the Gardai (Irish Police Force) and asked them to arrest and question him. I believe the CIA were in Ireland too in that case. Anyway, once it was explained that it was a joke (very funny!), the charges were dropped.
T.
I am, just like most people in the Open Source community, outraged by what happened. There has to be something we can do to help. Jon Johansen & his dad could sure use some. We must show the suits they are NOT above the law just because they have money.
/. does not count).
My question is, what would be the most effective thing to do? We must act quickly or else it will be too late! (and no, ranting on
___
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
This is a very important phrase (if our translation is accurate). I only think that any of this (DVDs,MP3s) is a problem when you try and *profit* from the use of protected media. The only time you are violating the agreement is when you do it for cash. I just don't think, given the Internet and all, that we need to have such onerous protections. Cracking down on the *selling* of protected media is fine, but not for stuff like this. A potential sale is to a real sale as my sperm is to my children. (I have no kids).
+&x
I find it interesting that the same companies who region code discs and do their best to prevent consumers from buying product in low cost markets rather than in high cost local markets are the same ones who get very upset about any talk of 'region coding' employment so that they can't have products produced where labor is cheap to sell where products are expensive. Fair is fair!
Enough is enough!
:) You said in your story after the IPO that you had most of what you needed, how about contributing a small Carribean island in international waters to protect the Bazaar?
It's time that those of us interested in freedom pool our resources and purchase an island somewhere in international waters. It's sole purpose would be to provide an extranational haven for information such as this which is acquired legally, but still prosecuted in this manner.
The only thing resembling a police force on the island would be that which is there to prevent other countries from agressing against us and attempting to confiscate our physical posessions and/or data. No cooperation with any other country on prosecution of someone placing data on the servers would be allowed by it's charter.
There is a great need for a physical space which is truly out of the reach of over-reaching, intrusive and confiscatory corporations and nations.
Come on folks, let's put our resources to work. I have read posts in this forum from what seem to be some of the most educated and intelligent individuals with which it is my pleasure to read and associate. In addition to our techie orientation, we come from all walks of life and backgrounds. I have seen people post who are lawyers, nuclear physicists, and doctors. Even with those who are not in these occupations, we are the cream of the crop, we are, collectively, a highly intelligent entity. And we have a tendency to be in the upper scale of income.
Let's put that intelligence, creativity and dollars to work to protect our freedom. Churches function on the premise that the members donate/tithe for the common good. The entire free software movement is based on contributing to the whole. And some of us have even had massive windfalls recently through the major IPO's. Not me, of course, but I am still willing to contribute time, what dollars I can, etc. to insuring that my freedom remains. Many of our predecessors have fought physically and died for this, we can throw a little money at it.
How about it ESR?
And while Eric (or any other individual) may choose to make a significant contribution of this type, all of us must make a effort to protect what we hold dear. I realize this is a massive concept and project, but we are a powerful force. If we feel impotent to affect the outcome of these legalistic events, how about we behave like the net we love and 'route around the damage' by creating a physical place free from that damage.
Whattya think folks? Good idea, or am I just talking through my hat?
Russ
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. - George Orwell or George Bush?
Don't give in!
If you ever read the Masters of Reverse Engineering text file about The Truth about DVD CSS cracking by MoRE and [dEZZY/DoD] that came with DeCSS and that can be found on:
www.lemuria.org/DeCSS/dvdtruth.txt
You can read the following very interesting statement:
Lately, Jon Johansen of MoRE has been pretty much all over the news in Norway, though he had NOTHING to do with the actual cracking of the DVD CSS protection. Yes, it was MoRE who did DeCSS, but the actual crack was not a team effort, MoRE didn't even exist back when the anonymous German (who is now a MoRE member) cracked it...
If today's suit of monopoly protection laws and licenses had been operational twenty years ago, Compaq's engineers would have been jailed for reverse engineering the IBM PC bios. Suddenly software could be run - and yes, copied - on non-IBM-made computer systems. Did the markets collapse? Were consumers hurt? No way. This was the beginning of the cutthroat competition in the computer hardware sector that brought down prices at the same time as improving on every quantitative measure. Such were the halcyon days of the legacy market-democratic system that has now been replaced by the plutocracy of monopolistic companies and trusts.
-cjr
OK, the fact, as I see them, are that at the moment, to view a (legally bought) DVD rom, you need one of
(a) A DVD player and a TV
(b) An x86 computer running Windows 95/98/NT with a licenced copy of DVD player software or
(c) A mac running MacOS with a licenced copy of DVD player software.
Which means that people who wish to watch their DVDs (in Ireland, anyway) are forking out a couple of hundred quid for software, even if they already have a computer with a DVD drive. So Linux, FreeBSd, etc users are SOL.
So *our* argument, as I see it, is that under fair use, we are entitled to decode the DVDs so that we can watch our disks on our computers. Grand. We know that, the press doesn't. *Their* argument isn't really about writing copies of DVDs at all, and that's something people are ignoring completely.
The reason the film industry is chasing so hard to keep DVDs under their control is the same reason the music industry is afraid of mp3s. If people crack DVDs to get raw mp2s, then those files will end up as ubiquitous web-wide as mp3s are for music...you'll have warez sites cropping up all over the place to distribute the latest movies fresh off the DVDs. *That's* the cracking/copying they're complaining about.
And the fact is that the only shot they *had* at stalling that was by nipping DeCSS in the bud. Sure, these guys are entitled to do what they did, but if the industry lets the opportunity slip while things are still this centralised, they'll be in a world of shit in a couple of years.
Now, I'm not advocating their actions, but when people say this has *nothing* to do with copying and illegally distributing DVDs, it gets up my wick. The case has two facets. The first is fair use, the second is the indusry's right to defend against illegal distribution. If they're to do it by the book, they'll have to wait until sites start cropping up and sue them one by one. And we all know where that got the music industry.
Long and short of it is, hate these guys for what they're doing to people, but understand where they're coming from, and remember it if you ever have the chance to download illegal mp2s.
Dave Neary.
I've seen lotsa comments saying they can't kill it as long as the code is out, but I'm afraid that might not be true. The real problem (i think) is that they will go after the developers. I don't know how livid is on the people at the moment, but if they need someone with a little coding experiencee and no dvd drive, I'd love to help. But if you've got a dvd drive and more coding experience, you'd probably be more usefull. Even if they don't need people, develope some on your own, and distribute the changes!
So, my questions for those who know more about the relevent laws:
--
"But, Mulder, the new millennium doesn't begin until January 2001."
send all spam to theotherwhitemeat@ropine.com
The reason this is no overstatement is that laws about burglarious tools, cracking, and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in particular, are vague. The boundary between test tools and crime is one that can be drawn by private organizations like the MPA. In other words, you can get thrown in jail for pissing off a cartel, or even an single corporation. This is very very bad.
To correct this situation, the response must be in depth and comprehensive. Be creative. Sure, write to your legislator, but more effective means might be to: Find out the individuals involved in action against the DeCSS authors and make them object of controversy. If the lawyers find their other clients abandoning them because they do not want to do business with controversial lawyers, that is a concrete consequence.
Can you make a difference against "media giants?" Yes. Compare what a movie grosses to a high-tech IPO. These media giants no longer look so tall. The record industry establishment is in real danger of extinction from MP3s. In two or three years it will be possible to store digital movies at full fidelity on hard disks, and perhaps on removable media. It will be possible to transcode them into general purpose and unprotected multimedia formats. It will be the MP3 story again. It is very important that this future prevail, because the alternative is very very bad.
The only way that establishment media companies can maintain their lock on distribution of content is to make certain activities with your PC illegal. In other words, they must criminalize certain software, which they have already done with the DMCA, and they must make your private activities with your PC subject to their interpretation of the law and they must make law enforcement agencies into their private police force for this purpose. Bad! And of you think, that once this camel's nose is under the tent, such infringements on rights will end there, well...
Such antique sentiments that one should be secure in one's documents are not the obsolete thoughts of dead white men. They are a very applicable warning to us all that, in the name of protecting a movie, our fundamental human rights are endangered. Fight back. Fight hard.
I wrote parts of this stuff
You should put some of those funds you have lying around to good work and take out a full-page ad in the New York Times detailing the situation for the general public. Explain that the monster corporation (joe blow dislikes corporate bullies as much as we do) is trying to take away THEIR right to watch DVDs that THEY OWN. Outline the facts in an easy to read format. Easy enough for simple-minded journalists minds, even =)
If slashdot and andover don't want to spend the funds for the ad(s! find other major media!) but would be willing to donate ADMINISTATIVE HELP, putting together a fund would be most useful. I for one would send in my $10 to pay for a television spot or a newspaper ad.
Respectfully,
James Blachly
I support the freedom of publishing code, 1st Amendment. I support the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms, 2d Amendment. I doubt very seriously that any 'socialst liberal' would come to one of my IPSC matches with me or would care to borrow one of my Glocks to use for a compeitition. I am very surprised you go on like that without finding out what type of people you are speaking to. "Geeks with Guns" is an active shooting group. A VA Linux board member started it in California. He also wrote about "I will give to pro-gun-rights organizations" in his press release about what he plans on doing now that he's a millionare (on paper at least.) I doubt Sarah Brady will take him under her wing as a fellow 'socialist liberal.' Please research a bit more before making such sweeping statements. HerrGlock
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
I think perhaps the authorities in Norway didn't want an international incident involving very large, very powerful American companies and just decided to take the kid right away. I think it's scary to be honest.
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
As I mentioned in a thread below, I'm boycotting all big media -CDs, movies, DVDs, all of it, as long as this nonsense continues. I spend literally thousands of dollars a year on entertainment products, but not one more penny of my money is going to support these actions. I've had it. This is completely unacceptable. I understand fear of the future, but change or die people.
Harry Caul
Well, I don't know how old you have to be i Norway to be a minor.
But if he *is* a minor, they probably wanted to arrest someone who they could throw into jail, even if he has *nothing* at all to to with creating the nonillegal software in question.
"And we should arrest people who make cars, for they can be used to kill people. An a pen can be used to poke someones eyes out, so let's arrest people who make pens too. And you can choke on food! Let's arrest people who make foodstuff!"
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
Bear Island (74d 30m 10s N - 19d 00m 05s E) in the arctic circle - impossible to land for 10/11 months of the year and the lease is up for the Norwegian government soon so we just need to persuade the hard-up Russian government to part company with it :)
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
Can you imagine the commercial viability of an independent data haven site? There's some serious problems in setting the whole thing up, like getting recongnition of other countries, getting power from sufficient numbers of sources such that no one coalition could shut us out (buy from US, Mexico, Canada and Cuba, perchance??)
But wow. Imagine the possibilities of servers hosted there, with some powerful ssh/ssl interfaces, a few anonymous remailers and liberal use of Zero-Knowledge's Freedom or similar products and some hard-drive wipers (PGP has one, IIRC, as does SynCrypt).
It could charge an arm and a leg for commercial hosting, and provide a few dedicated servers for free use for open-source projects--especially those that don't fall under the 'retail' or 'fully-open-source' categories in the new US crypto-export regs.
We could even tap Neal Stephenson and Bruce Sterling and Gibson for venture capital, as they've all mentioned the idea at one time or the other. Or maybe they'd like to buy homes there...
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
Maybe I'm just not awake yet, but I'm having a hard time figuring out what ease of acquisition should have to do with whether or not something is illegal.
Should a crime be less punishable simply because it requires more effort to prepare to commit it?
Or are you just advocating background checks and a 5-day waiting period for software downloads?
>As an example the Region 1 disc of The Matrix has additional sound tracks and a follow the white rabbit interactive element
:(
>which are not included on the Region 2 disk
Hmmm. *My* region 2 Matrix on DVD has got the follow the white rabbit feature - which works remarkably well, so the above poster must have got a review copy of the disk - my copy was bought on the release date of the DVD. I don't know which additional sound tracks the Region 1 has, and I must admit I haven't looked for any on my region 2 disc, but I'd assume they were there, just simply because you (the original poster) got the white rabbit bit wrong...
I've also read in an entertainment magazine (reputable review mag - and *only* one because I don't buy that sort of mag regularly) that some region 2 discs are also getting extra features that region 1 discs didn't get. I don't have the mag with me at work, though
I do, however, agree with the BBFC comment at the end of the article. Sometimes, they are just *too* draconian in their cutting room.
Caffeine fault: operator dumped
We're almost there in the US. ---- What is so completely strange is how this could happen in Norway. Uncle Sam has a long arm...
Does anyone know if the new public Linux corporations (ie RH, VA, Andover, etc.) have said/are going to say anything official about this situation? It would be greatly appreciated by the community if the companies which have gotten rich off the OS movement would show some support in the media for the real issues behind this abuse of governmental power. It would really give more weight to the truth in the court of public opinion if they would say something.
"Life is tough but we're tougher. You only get what you give, so give all that you've got." --Tony LaRussa
In Norway, you can be held responsible for criminal acts from the age of 15.
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
right now i am pretty happy *not* having a dvd player--might eventually get one, but only for another region (how ridiculous) or built into a computer.
dvd has momentum (and some cool features), but i am contemplating a personal boycott. great films are being released on dvd, but owning a player and discs means buying into an ugly system. kuma
In addition to the many other positive approaches I have read here, I propose that we begin making changes in habit that will eviscerate the pocketbooks of the DVD Forum's members.
I suggest a renaissance of Fireside chats, book readings over beer and pizza, out loud with friends or family, and evenings out at the theater, comedy club, or ameteur venues. If we eliminate television and movies from our lives and replace them with alternative forms of entertainment instead, the DVD Forum will lose allot of money. I suggest doing this as part of a political movement to fight what the DVD Forum members are doing. We may not win back our government from Corporate Earth, but we can punish them for what they have done and take back a third of our lives from their clutches. If you MUST watch movies, limit yourself to independent studios not a part of the MPAA or the DVD Forum, though I believe elimitating the entire entertainment genre from our lives would do much more to scare these corporations than a simple boycott of their particular brand-name would, as it would represent a fundamental shift in our behavior that even and end to their activities might not stop.
I am not suggesting we make a major sacrifice, removing entertainment from the leisure portion of our lives, but rather substitute one form of benign entertainment for a malignant one, and to do so in a social context that encourages others to do the same.
Throw a party for friends, in which you tell each other stories or read a book aloud together over, beer, wine, or whatever poison is your choice, and let your friends know exactly why you are doing this. Encourage your friends and family to do the same. If your TV, satelite, or cable hardware supports it, turn off the ability to select channes owned by Time Warner et al. If you feel strongly enough, unplug your TV, or better yet, sell it on ebay. Use the printed media or net exlusively for your news and, if you simply can't live without it, "media" entertainment.
It isn't as important that the DVD Forum members or MPAA know why you are doing this as it is that your family and friends be well informed as to why you are doing this. I am basically proposing a grass roots movement we as individuals take part in, designed to remove the MPAA and DVD Forum from our social and ecominic lives, as a way of both freeing ourselves and punishing those that perpetrated this evil.
I say this as someone who owns thousands of dollars in Laserdisk and hundreds of dollars in DVDs that I, regrettably, bought before discovering how malignant the DVD Forum is.
I encourage others to brainstorm and post other novel, positive ways we can take back control of our own lives from these jerks and hit them in the pocketbook at the same time. We are smarter than these people. Rather than reacting emotionally and throwing stones, let's react intelligently and put them out of business.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
But that's kinda outside the point. The real point here is that we want to stand up for this guy's right to reverse engineer DeCSS. There are dozens of posts here emphasizing how incredibly important this case could be. Well the industry and life have blessed me with some cash that I would love to put to good use defending this kid. I realize that joining the EFF here in America is a great way to support the fight against the MPAA and to press our rights to use DVD technology on the operating system of our choice and our right to understand and reverse engineer technology that we buy and use every day.
My point is, does anybody have an address I can send a US dollar denominated check to to support this case in Norway?
It's a dangerous road to travel, where we claim to fight for freedom, but we become censors.
Who determines who the bullies are? I agree that MPAA should be slapped around for their actions. But then the other side will say,
Or in my case with Mattel people have said,We have to educate some of these people and companies that they can't do the this to people. We can't lower ourselfs to these levels.
What we have to do to the companies that use these tactics:
Fight Spammers!
Funny, seems like they (cnn.no) had a poll asking "Do oyu trust the security of microsoft products" earlier.
h bs?id=257
71% of the norwegians don't trust ms.
http://cnn.vg.no/interaktiv/hva_mener_du/index.
It should not be just us users and the OS community backing this but any of the companies that make money by OS.
Think about it RedHat, what happens when anything that is reversed engineered after a person clicked on the agreement might be declared illegal, what happens to your distro when lots of open source software gets banned?
Of course every software player in the IS industry should back this, but then I don't think they get what this means for them yet.
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
Where I live, if you break into my home or assault me with a deadly weapon, I can legally shoot you I could also shoot you if you were committing a violent felony such as rape, murder or arson.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Well its pretty clear that the government and the press are swallowing the megacorps' allegations hook line and sinker, while having little consideration for our side. I do think its a shame we don't hear more from RedHat or VA on this issue.
The everyday commonman is only hearing one side of the story. He should hear both. I think it's time for another web blackout to draw attention to this corporatism run amok.
Slashdot, would a spell-checker for posting be too much to ask? It's not rocket science!
I would like to know what law he broke, did he make a program that copies DVD's or breaks the copyright protection. If it copies the CD's then yea, maybe its a bad thing. But even in doing that, can't we make copies of a DVD that we own, for lets say "Backup reasons".
Now lets say his program source simply broke the encryption to just allow the data to be read, and another program, or function in the program could copy the information to say, a hard drive. Isn't the DVD yours to begin with? Even though there is copyright protection, you do own the DVD, since when do we buy things that we don't totally own.
The wool has been pulled over our eyes somewhere along the line. If i buy a CD, and i want to smash it, i can right? If i want to listen to it i can, right? What if i want to copy it and make copies for myself? is that illegal? What if i give these copies away to friends. It is my CD after all. And if it was a toothpick or something it would be ok, but this media is different. We no longer own it. We just own the rights to listen to it. If i pay for it, i want all my rights too it.
Doesn't anyone else agree?
----
eclip5e
eclip5e@ccs.neu.edu
ICQ #2567792
"Charging a man with murder in this place is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500" -Apocalypse No
Brrr. Reading a story like this makes me only want top copy movies & music in the future.
Personally I've money enough to buy them, and it is more convenient than copying. But I can't stand the idea that my money goes to such immoral companies trying to sue a 16 year old. Everyone has the right to research protection schemes or whatever. If it breaks, than they should have made it better and it's completely their fault.
Do you know what this actually reminds me of? The scientology case. The "secret" OT materials were filed as evidence in a court case in Sweden, which according to Swedish law makes them public documents, so journalists and private citizens can study the evidence. Sweden takes freedom of information seriously. But the ultra rich scientology cult doesn't like to get their dirty secrets exposed, so they whispered into the ears of American politics, who in turn put pressure on Sweden to remove the documents, calling it a case of religious discrimination. Eventually they got their will through. And now this, ultrarich, ultrapowerful American film companies bribe^h^h^h^h^h^h sorry "lobby" American politicians, and soon the police are raiding a 16 year old boy. Deja vu.
I ask you - who are the fascists now?
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Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
Maybe they have gone to far by arresting Jon? We now have a person at the focus of this fiasco. This could very well force more of us into action than ever before. Martyrs are wonderful for strengthening a movement...
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
it's in my head
Here are my mirrors.. Remember to mirror early and often. Spread it far and wide! The best way to help is to mirror the software and join the EFF today!
Join the EFF to help fight this! http://www.eff.org
New Mirrors:
http://www.securityinsight.com
http://hiway1.exit109.com/~malice/
Fight for your rights!
As has been pointed out many times, one of the big arguments in the lawsuits, and perhaps the criminal investigation as well, is whether the reverse engineering was done legally. Let's kill that argument by having a second version done according to the well-know cleanroom reverse engineering techniques that worked so well for Phoenix when they cloned the IBM PC rom. It has to be unarguably legal reverse engineering, done strictly for the purpose of cross-platform support. We not only have to have the moral high ground, but be seen to have it. Do the work, and keep records of how it was done.
Will this help the current cases? No - those cases still have to be fought hard, and maybe somebody will have to beat a strategic retreat. But it will help prevent us from losing the war.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Again a young person with real skills is persecuted for his application of knowledge. He did not steal, cheat or harm anyone. Okay so he hacked. But it was the kind of hacking we should promote not stomp into the dirt of ignorance. Taking clocks apart to see what makes them tick. Building cool things out of legos. This is where it all starts. Where would the world be without people like this? What if Isaac Newton hadn't discovered gravity where would we all be?? I'll tell ya...probably on the moon or just floating around (on the plus side we could jump really high). This boy obviously has a decent understanding of the processes involved, give him a job. You shouldn't prosecute him for non-malicous code that he's already written. Ridiculous.
That doesn't change anything. Regardless, we're getting the source from a public document, authored by DVD-CCA.
The code is GPL'd. Therefore, to comply with the GPL, the document must also be distributable under the terms of the GPL. I believe that's what the Open-Content License is for.
So it's still possible. I didn't choode my words very well when I talked about the public-domain bit. But the idea still works.
That doesn't change anything. Regardless, we're getting the source from a public document, authored by DVD-CCA.
The code is GPL'd. Therefore, to comply with the GPL, the document must also be distributable under the terms of the GPL. I believe that's what the Open-Content License is for.
So it's still possible. I didn't choose my words very well when I talked about the public-domain bit. But the idea still works.
I believe that this is a decission by the state attorney (Ms Inger Marie Sunde) that a crime might have been committed.
If Inger Sunde isthe person who made the decision to attack us like this, then we need to crucify her. Many attorney's in the US are elected (or at appointed directly by elected officials) so they are sensitive to public opinion. If you live in Norway you should probable be calling Ms. Sunde office to complain and explain the truth.
Also, it is worth pointing out that it is in Norway's interest that people can use systems like Linux since Norway should not want to be too dependant on US software (i.e. Microsoft). Hell, if I was a citizen I would be calling her a traitor unless she drops the case. I wonder how useful this "anti-Linux == treason" meme would be in the non-US world.. it might win us some support from some segments of the populatin which really don't know anyhting about computers.
We should make a point to remember public officials like this who make anti-Linux/OSS policies. If she sticks to this decision I would be willing to chip in some money to run commercials explaining why she is a traitor to her country on Norway's TV at election time.
I would love to see somoene who knows about the politics of this sort of thing in Norway explain the bezt course of action for communicating our message.. forcefully.
Jeff
BTW> Generally, we should be tring harder to apply our zelotness and looking for people like this to crusify. It might help the movement quite a bit to kill the career of an anti-Linux, anti-OSS, or anti-reverse engenering government official or two.. as other government officials will sit up and take notice.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Maybe you should have, *sigh*, read the answers to these many questions you refer to and perhaps memorized them too.
"It sounds like you are saying that the MPAA is choosing option number 2, but it's not!. It would seem to me that the CSS system is an attempt to put good locks on the doors and windows."
The CSS system is a form of crytography, the level of which doesn't even rate as 'week'. I was in no way attempting to suggest that it is ok to crack something that was protected.
What I was attempting to say however that if you have something valuable and don't protect it very well you can more expect it to be stolen, wrong it may be but badly protected valuables get stolen.
You have to remember here that the MPAA is quoting potential loss figures that dwarf the insurance value of the English Crown Jewels, the Crown Jewls are stord in huge vault below ground inside a fort. The Css system was protected with a system in crytography terms equivlenet to a spring catch on a balsa wood door.
The core of my argument (on this point) is that expecting the tax-payer to pick up a large chunk of the bill for damage-control on secret a secret that was not very well protected is not entirely fair. Yes it's wrong to steal secrets but I would like the law changed to say:
If you want the taxpayer funded courts to help defend you secrets you need to provide adacuate protection for them yourselves.
You have some very interesting ideas. We need to do things to push these sorts of ideas on the general public. I guess you could write a manifesto and get it posted all over the internet.
I encourage others to brainstorm and post other novel, positive ways we can take back control of our own lives from these jerks and hit them in the pocketbook at the same time. We are smarter than these people. Rather than reacting emotionally and throwing stones, let's react intelligently and put them out of business.
First, it would be nice if someone would post ways to contribute to the guy's legal defence (this post asked before me).
Second, we need the support of the general population, so we may need emotional campaigns. Specifically, we should politically attack the government officials who do this kind of shit. It could be really useful to the community to kill the carear of an anti-Linux / anti-fair use politician or two (I discuss this further in my other post)
It is worth mentioning that non-US countries should not want to be dependent on a US company (Microsoft) so "anti-Linux == treason" is a useful meme which the general population can understand. I think the community should take what happens in the rest of the world very seriously.. to the point of remembering anti-Linux politicians (like Ms Inger Marie Sunde (state attorney in Norway) and donating money to see them removed from office. We could run a web site which lists the anti-Linux politicians who are currently running for office and allows people to contribute to campaigns opposing them. People could contribute small amounts of money, but it would be scary to politicians since it draws money from all over the world.
Jeff
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
It isn't Uncle Sam that has the long arm, it's the corporations.
Corporate statism, here we come!
--
--
The Internet is the Suppository of All Knowledge. You get it in the end.
So, when Jon committed the aledged crime he was only 15 years old. In the UK this would make him a minor and would affect the way in which his case was processed (e.g. a juvenile rather than adult court). I am fairly certain that in the UK someone who is 15 cannot be a party to a contract, and this would presumably include a contract-o-matic (i.e. they cannot be held to the terms of any contract which they sign). Does anyone know if similar rules exist in Norway? Would peopler care to speculate if this may become relevant to the case?
An earlier DVD CSS discussion contained several comments that there already are DVD data extraction programs for MS-Windows. The existing licensed DVD drivers for MS are already being used to get the video data. DeCSS is not needed if one wants to extract the video data. DeCSS is only needed by Linux users who want to be able to buy DVDs.
Ok, I admit I am the typical spineless, apathetic individual who reads these things with interest, but never does anything about it.
... if so, why are they arresting him?
I thought I had been keeping up with what was happening with DeCSS (Mmmm... my unused copy of the source is staying safe with me) but apparently I have missed something dire.
WTF happened between the court case here and this kid getting arrested? Has he not complied with what they wanted done (stop distributing the source or trade secrets, right?)
This is just absolutly ludicrous. While I believe myself to be informed on this topic and support this kid 100%, I know most of my readers on my websites are less than technical and probably haven't even heard of this.
I would like to make them aware of the situation and what can be done. My problem is I appear to be out of date, and all the info I've looked up/read conforms with what I *THOUHT* I knew about the case.
Can someone sum up the chain of events that lead up to this, in as concise and compact a form as possible that I can link to for my users. I would try to put this together, but would be afraid of missing something important. Once a site like this is together for the general potato(e) public, lots of sites that have non-technical readers could link to it, for a quick overview on what's happened, why it needs to stop and what we can do.
I hope this makes sense. I am willing to help in any way I can.
Thanks,
-NW
Email
And that's not always a bad thing! Shooting someone in self-defense is a hell of a lot better than being killed. Handguns are the easiest form to store, since a shotgun would most times be a little unwieldy, so handguns are the obvious choice. I'm not a gun freak, either. In fact, I can count the number of times I've actually held a gun on my left hand. But I understand that the right to own a gun is an important freedom, and taking that away would be more dangerous than it is now. If you outlaw guns, than only outlaws will own them--how would that solve the problem? It would basically neuter our ability to protect outselves.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
Although you made some good points, Jon didn't write the software, he only distributed it.
Here ! .. .I have translated it for you.
- ---
Jazz.
-----------------------------------------------
MEDIA GIANTS THREATEN 16 YEAR OLD COMPUTER WHIZZ.
CNN NORWAY -- 16 year old Jon Johansen cracked the codes that protect DVD
discs.
Now, media giants, such as Sony, Warner og Disney wish to punish the
Norwegian.
On Monday he was police-interviewed for seven hours.
- We have reported Jon & Per Johansen to the police on MPA and DVD CCA's
behalf,
attorney Espen Trøndel confirms to VG.
Motion Picture Association (MPA) is the organisation which collectively
watches out
for the interests of USA's seven largest movie corporations: Walt Disney,
Sony Pictures,
MGM, Paramount Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studio and Warner Bros.
DVD CCA controls and protects the copyright of DVD products.
Jon and his father er charged with violating the copyright law as well as
the criminal law
after the 16 year old participated with an international ring who developed
and distributed
the program DeCSS. This program makes it possible to copy DVD movies.
- The charge is erroneous. The keys on DVD-discs are not a copy-protection,
but a playback-
protection. All we have done is make it possible to play back DVD on our
computers, Johansen
said to VG after being released from questioning Saturday evening.
Økokrim (Division of Norewegian police, investigating financial issues)
searched Jon Johansen's
home on Monday.
Johansen had to surrender his mobile phone, computers, a number of CD's and
all the passwords
to his computers.
The District Attorney of Økokrim, Inger Marie Sunde confirms to Aftenposten
that the police
have been authorised to search Johansen's home. Sunde says that Økokrim
treat this sort of
violations very seriously.
Johansen became somewhat of a celebrity in the computer community last year,
when it became
known that he had been a member of the group MoRE. This group cracked the
protection key
for DVD movies.
Even back then, when Johansen was 15 years old, he was contacted by the
company Simonsen Musæus,
who requested he removed the information on DeCSS.
Last week, the MPA received support from US courts, so that links to DeCSS
must be removed from US sites. At this moment in time, they are the only people who
have been charged. However, Johansen has no regrets for coming forward with his full
name after the DeCSS news broke.
- 'Someone has to fight this fight', he laughs, and prepares himself for a long night.
Johansen has posted his versjon av on the Internet sight slashdot.org
CNN Norway has written this article with contributions from Verdens Gang.
Translated to English for you by Jazzman.
Norwegian law firm Simonsen & Musaeus said it had reported Johansen and his father to the police on behalf of the Motion Picture Association (MBA), a lobby group for seven major Hollywood studios.
Here's an old Livi d-dev article from Johansen which mentions that law firm.
Let's face some facts. The movie industry are not creating all this fuss to put the genie back into the bottle. They know, just as we do, that this is impossible. BUT, they hope that if they can bankrupt and few people and better still get one or two thrown into jail then when they finally release DVD2 (plus other schemes which rely on encryption to protect interlectual property such as purchasing music to download) everyone will be too scared to try and crack it and they will be able to stitch the consumer up however they like.
Now, we are not going to be able to fight this sort of thing through the courts (although that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try in the current cases) because:
a) The movie industry can afford lots of very good lawyers.
b) If the laws are not adequate they have enough money to pay polititions to change them.
Plus, we are not going to be able to get enough public support to get the few non-corrupt polititions to help because:
a) Very few people are going to be able to understand the issues (try explaining this case to your mother and see how you get on!).
b) The general media are unlikely to report the cases accurately.
c) There are an awful lot of "important" issues (economy, violent crime, environment) which the vast majority of the public care about far more than they are ever going to care about these (to them) obscure technical issues.
So, as in a military campaign we have to see what can be done about moving the fight to areas where we can play to our strengths. What is that area? Well obviously it is the INTERNET.
Most goverments would dearly like to remove child porn from the internet, yet huge quantities still slosh around every day. How is this achieved? Simple, the images are anonymously posted at regular intervals to usenet newsgroups. Do we have a newsgroup where such postings regularly occur? Perhaps we had better start one and make sure that everyone knows where it is.
The other solution has been suggested by others so I shall not labour the point. We need a server in a "free" country (e.g. China, Cayman Islands etc) through which software authors can establish an anonymous internet presence. Unfortunately, I doubt that I am living in a "free" country (UK) and my software skills are not up to the job, so I can only propose and support the idea, but at the end of the day, this is what we are going to HAVE to do.
-Legion
No, it's called the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. (I think.) The point of it being, reverse engineering can be illegal if it can be used illegaly (or words to that effect.)
The main use for this code is not to pirate DVDs, but to allow for them to be played under Linux. Otherwise, an open source player would not be possible, since A) someone writing software for free isn't going to want to pay for a license and B) they wouldn't be able to distribute the source due to the MPAA's restrictions. To justify using an open source, reverse-engineered DVD player is in no way saying it's perfectly justifiable to saying it's ok to pick the lock to my front door and steal my stuff. The proper analogy would be: What if I were to be locked out of my house? Should I not be able to call a locksmith and have him circumvent the lock?
Let's not forget who owns the vast majority of the media outlets, including two of the three major American networks. Yup, member conglomerates of the MPAA and DVD Forum. It is possible, even likely, that the same is true of most of the media in Europe as well.
Don't expect to get the whole truth on this from traditional media -- their hands and minds are hardly free of ill intent. In fact, don't expect to even get a reasonable portion of the truth from those sources.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
on the web encoded with a simple algorithm (rot13? :) without any informations on how to read it in clear?
... well, boys, we can sue him for unauthorized decoding of informations.
For many of us (if not all) it will be very easy to find the encoding scheme but legally the code is not public because of encoding, so nobody can sue us.
If some lawyer thinks there is some DeCSS code inside our pages
The severity of this situation is unbelievable.
/.) would be the only ones boycotting, we dont make up a high percentage of the dvd purchasing public. Not only that, these companies have a tight grip over the "knowledge" of the public. If CNN tells them the 15 year old boy illegally hacked something, they will belive it. Their power to control the distribution channels of information is the most difficult thing to compete. The best I can do is wear my DVDCSS tshirt and inform people on the severity of the situation. (Although most people think its a joke. It really annoys me)
A boycott of DVDs would be pointless. The individuals who are concerned and well informed on this issue (people reading
We are fighting a losing battle. Now I'm not saying we should give up, far from it. I think the best thing we can do is aggresivly continue the LiViD project, and finish it before the case is out of court. Although it would piss of the Big Evil Companies something feirce, it seems to be our only alternative.
Boycotting wont do much except give yourself a sense of satisfication. They already have, for arguments sake, an infinite amount of monetary recourses. They can throw their money around and sick packs of angry rabid lawyers at us, and win. Since when have the people "in power" -ever- listened to the geeks.
I guess this is to be expected. Free media is part of the nature of the internet. The people who make their living controlling the media distribution want to keep the old ways because they have it figured out to a science. Rather then figure out something new they would rather defend their old antiquated system, and will do everything they can to hold on to it for as long as possible.
Never underestimate the ignorance of the populace.
no
Does it seem ironic to anyone else that the "crime" he is accused of basically boils down to figuring out the "passwords" (encryption keys) that DVD's use, and then when the police take him in for questioning, they not only seized his equipment, but they required him to give them his passwords?
Evil Evil Evil.
Pound! Bang! Bin! Bash! is this a shell script or a Batman comic?
Indeed. Here, as I see it, is why they're after Johansen:
The CSS licensing is not about money, it's about control. (In fact, as I understand it, the licenses are free.) As long as one has to sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the information needed to build a DVD drive that handles CSS-protected discs, the DVD CCA has some degree of control over DVD drive manufacturers. I'm sure that the licensing contract prevents manufacturers from selling consumer-priced unrestricted hardware (i.e. drives that happily ignore region coding and can do bit-for-bit writes). Currently, all such drives are well out of the price range of the casual consumer (though not the serious, professional pirate).
But now, thanks to DeCSS, all the information needed to build a DVD drive is out in the open. Anyone who wants to can put together an unrestricted drive and sell it for $200, if that price point is profitable for them.
The DVD CCA faced a tough choice when it came to CSS. They had to choose whether to patent the system (assuming this was possible - probably, giving the current state of patents), or keep it a trade secret. Both choices have advantages and disadvantages:
The CCA chose the second option, and it has backfired on them. Now they're trying to save themselves via the court system. This is why the reverse engineering issue is probably far more important to them than the DMCA issue. If they succeed in nailing Johansen, they'll probably have frightened off anyone who was thinking of reverse-engineering the system themselves (or using the DeCSS-derived information now on the web) in order to build a player.
Note that if this happens, the CCA will have effectively aquired the same rights as if they'd patented the system - but without ever formally disclosing how the system works, as a patent would normally require. So this case could set a rather dangerous precedent: The whole point of patents is to enhance technological development, by encouraging disclosure. And the carrot used to encourage disclosure is a government-guaranteed monopoly for a limited period of time. Putting reverse engineering on legally shaky ground means that companies have a better chance of keeping a monopoly on a technology that has trade secret status.
Right now, when companies are deciding whether or not to patent something, they have to ask themselves the question: "How long before someone will be able to re-create this technology without spying on us?" If the answer is over a certain threshold, it's probably better to keep it a trade secret. If reverse engineering becomes de-facto illegal, then the question becomes "How long before someone will be able to re-create this technology without spying on us or reverse-engineering our product?" Obviously, the answer to the second question will often be greater (and never less) than the answer to the first, and thus is more likely to be over the magic threshold where patenting becomes a bad idea.
And when you consider that the question isn't really whether or not someone resorted to spying (or reverse engineering), but rather whether or not you can convince a court of this, it's even worse - making a case for reverse engineering is probably a good bit easier, if the judge doesn't understand technology well enough to understand what reverse engineering is all about. So we may even see companies trying to convince judges that a competitor illegally reverse-engineered their product when in fact no such thing took place.
Finally, it should also be noted that while this may prevent companies from going for some patents, it won't prevent them from going after most stupid ones, like the Amazon one-click, because the ability to legally reverse engineer doesn't do much to help you figure out most such 'technologies', anyways.
The only thing this will lead to is that future
hacks/cracks will be posted anonymously, for sure...
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
Is there a legal fund yet? I got 20 bucks in my pocket that is headed north if someone can setup a legal fund.
I'm still working on a clever footer.
A boycott is certainly in order. [...] It should also have a defined starting date -- how about Feb. 10, 2000?
...
If you are going to stop consuming the RIAA, MPAA and DVD Forum's products, start TODAY. A delayed boycott is no boycott at all.
Why do you want to wait? Is there a particular movie you want to see first? What makes you think there won't be another one just as appealing in three weeks?
If a complete boycott is too draconian for you, scale down your efforts. For example, limit your TV viewing to a couple of hours a week or less if zero is too difficult. Rent instead of buying or attending the cinema, if not watching movies at all is too difficult. It is far better for you to significantly reduce the flow of cash from your pocket to the RIAA, MPAA and DVD Forum immediately, than to put off a complete boycott until a later date, only to have it slip away altogether. A complete boycott is of course preferable, but every little bit helps and it is far better to do something limited in scope that still has some impact rather than nothing at all. Too often we end up thinking such things are an all or nothing thing, which doesn't have to be the case. Ten million people cutting their TV and movie consumption by 50% can have more of an impact that fifty thousand eliminating it altogether. The two together, plus others elsewhere on the spectrum, combine to be a mighty economic force indeed. Even if I stand alone, the cost to these jerks over the next year can be measured in thousands of US dollars, and from all appearances here and elsewhere, I hardly stand alone.
As I noted in another post, I will be removing the MPAA and DVD Forum from my life altogether, and using the time and money I would have spent consuming their products on alternative forms of entertainment instead. Remember, giving up movies and/or television doesn't have to mean that you are suddenly bored with nothing to do
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Lets dress up like indians and dump DVD's into the ocean! WHEEEEEEEEEEE!
The usual media coverage of something that might interest the /. community... 'A hacker broke the copy protection on something, he's being sued for it.' Nothing about how it might be LEGALLY useful... and about how totally INFEASIBLE it is to pirate dvd's... phh what morons.
--
linuxisgood:~$ man woman
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
Don't mail-bomb them, but you can ask questions to th law-firm in norway acting on behalf of the movie-studioes. You can also tell them what you think of their way of acting. But If you mail bomb them, most of the mail will probably be sent to dev0, so be serious. this is their web page: http://www.simu.no/english.html And this is the mail address simonsen.musaeus@simu.no P.S. English is not my native Language!
1. This is a classic saga: The morning after AOL-Time-Warner-EMI a 15 year old kid takes on the New World Order. There's something seriously wrong if you're not reading about this off-Slashdot and being briefed by your Granny. Even more important than mirroring the source is mirroring the truth.
2. Who unplugged ESR and RMS and (insert 3-letter guru here)? For once, I'd like to know what they think. The media listens to them. They command influence. Typical: when you need them they're as silent as lambs.
3. ThinkGeek, where's the DeCSS t-shirt? Something like this, but without the acid-casualty background. Memorize it and grafitti it on movie posters. Mugs. Tatoos. Stickers. Screensavers. Flyers. BeerMats. The only cure for the discontents of commodification are more commodities.
4. The human spirit views censorship as damage and routes around it.
Perhaps a boycott would actually work in their favor (if it really seriously caught on). DVD encryption is broken, and there's no way to fix it... no way to prevent people from copying DVDs... unless nobody wants DVDs anymore.
The only way for MPAA to bury this is to destroy DVD and replace it with something new, shockingly similar, and better encrypted. And I think it would be a PR nightmare to pull a very popular standard and replace it with something incompatible, so they really need it to fail commercially (like minidisks) to have a good reason to pull it.
But they'd lose all that money! Nope. Everyone with a DVD player will just have to buy a brand new ??? player to play ??? disks.
How's that for a conspiracy theory?
- StaticLimit
Linux users and members of the EFF worldwide are gving massive support to the DVD arrested Jan Johanssen for Vestfold. Many people are talking of launching an E-mail campaign against the Prime Minister.
Monday, Johanssen and his father were interrogated and arrested for crimes against copyright and criminal law. After seven hours in interrogation at the Economic Crimes Division, he was allowed to notify his liasons at slashdot.org of what had happened.
I haven't eaten
"I've barely got back, I haven't eaten, and someone is clearly going to pay for this. I've already takled to my lawyer. Did someone say countersuit?", he writes.
The reactions came immediately. For the following hours declarations of support and suggestions for countermeasures were pouring in.
Countersuit
Many want to help, some want to send money, and there is a call for an E-mail campaign against the Norweigan government. One of the debaters even suggest litagating against the Norweigan government.
"Send E-mail to theis man" (Bondevik), says one of the many supporters of Jan Johansen on website slashdot.org (knows as ./ among its users).
Before long, Johansen's cyber-friends had found the E-mail addresses of Kjell Magne Bondevik, the film industry's lawyer in Norway, Espen Tøndel, and the Economic Crimes Division.
In additions, pointers to norge.no/english, okokrim.no, and Bondevik's home page are distributed.
"The good die first." "Most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying patterns." --- MST3K
CNN link
I don't know how they
can get away with it. As the report says,
they are owned by Warner.
(CNN) -- Police on Monday
raided the home of Jon
Johansen, the Norwegian
programmer who
reverse-engineered the DVD
Content Scrambling System
(CSS) to allow DVD playback
on computers running the
Linux operating system.
In a new article on vg.no, professor Jon Bing at the Norwegian Research Center for Computers and Law has some interesting comments.
/. news for nerds as an example of a site where hundreds of nerds.
The 16-year old has probably thought that he was playing around with innocent things when he broke the DVD code. But as the entertainment industry sees this, he has driven an 18-wheeler up to the front of a record store, and said "Now I'm emptying the store!"
Bing thinks that even though the intention was never to create a copy of the DVD, there are still copyright laws and laws that can be used against Jon Johansen and his father Per.
Bing continues: American courts can also claim juristiction in this matter, as the plaintiff can say that they have been hurt in their home market.
The article goes on to show the "nerd support", and cite
-- -mogsie-
hmmm..... maybe that's what Gold and Appel
are really up to. Anderson and Celine are
just floating the "resort" idea to confuse
the rubes.
You'd have to buy it from the russians outright
to remove their sovreignity but think about it.
Satellite access to anyone that points a dish
at it - no lines to cut.
garyr
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
When I read this quote, it really bothered me, because it essentially states that whether we "win" or "lose" on this one, it seems like we still lose. I mean, I'd love to propose a boycott of all the companies involved in this, but would it work?
After all, if the DVD content creators win, it'll be a signal to them that ownership of media has changed. We won't own DVDs anymore, we'll own the right to use them under certain conditions stated by the DVD CSS (i.e. we must watch them under MacOS/Windows/Licensed Set-Top Box), but they won't really be our property. On the other hand, if they lose, they'll be crying all the way to the bank, and thinking "well, we got close, we'll manage it next time."
Can a boycott work? And a boycott of what I wonder?
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
I hope somebody knowledgeable reads this before we have 2000 comments, because I'd really like to know the answer.
What law is this guy accused of violating?
If he was selling pirated copies of Windows 98, then I would be satisfied by vague justifications like "violation of copyright." But this is not a straightforward case. I know that in the U.S., the DMCA explicitly makes it illegal to "crack" copy protection (under some circumstances), but that law was only passed recently, and I'm not aware of any corresponding laws outside the U.S. So what's the deal?
MSK
If I remember right, DeCSS is released under GPL. If it is, then publishing the sources as part of the case documents still falls under the GPL's legalize; nothing in DeCSS has changed because the sources were published in a legal document.
IANAL and all that, but I don't think this analysis makes sense. Slapping the GPL on a piece of software is meaningless if you don't have the right to license it in the first place.
This case is all about determining who has the legal right to write, reverse engineer, or distribute CSS code. If the courts determine that reverse engineering CSS was a violation of the DVD user license, I believe that would make DeCSS the property of DVD-CCA even though the code was written by Jon Johansen. That, in turn, would mean that no one else, including Jon Johansen, has the right to license the code, making the version that appeared under the GPL null and void.
Ergo, we cannot safely assume that DeCSS is a GPLed document just because it says it is. The legal status of DeCSS is exactly what is at stake here.
I note that the MPAA site www.mpaa.org is curiously lacking in contact information, even if it lists tons of officers (which makes me fear that they may have troops too). I found one address however: hotline@mpaa.org which is intended for snitches and I would be most surprised if the recipient or webmaster@mpaa.org, postmaster@mpaa.org, hostmaster@mpaa.org and domain administartive contact pegge@mpaa.org wouldn't be kind enough to forward greetings to Jack Valenti, capo de tutti capi of MPAA. Better safe than sorry so send your opinions to Don Valenti to all these addresses.
Heh, they should add:
D. No, that's why the codes are there.
That's exactly the right answer. Copy protection mechanisms have (or should have) no legal status whatsoever, since they simply serve to make the act of copying more difficult. Bootlegging (remember, don't call it "piracy") the content, i.e., violating the copyright by making and distributing unauthorized copies, is already illegal. The act of copying is not necessarily equivalent to bootlegging, because it can be done for legitimate reasons, such as a backup copy under "fair use", and the mere act of breaking the codes is certainly not even equivalent to that, since legitimate reasons include a desire for a DVD player under Linux, or simply a geek's "because it's there" response to an interesting challenge.
Having the ability to commit a crime is not the same as actually committing it. Copy protection mechanisms are an attempt by the content providers to prevent people from having the ability to copy content, and breaking the codes is a way to regain that ability, which is not illegal -- only using it is, and even that only if the use violates the copyright. Punishing someone for "having the ability to copy DVDs" simply because he has broken the code, regardless of whether or not he has actually copied any DVDs, would be like punishing someone for "having the ability to commit murder" simply because he owns a gun (or any deadly weapon, such as a kitchen knife, baseball bat, or even his bare hands), regardless of whether or not anyone has actually been killed.
David Gould
David Gould
main(i){putchar(340056100>>(i-1)*5&31|!!(i<6)<< 6)&&main(++i);}
I watched a debate program on Norway's national broadcasting channel.Here it didn't take long to get the impression that the "økokrim"(dealing with economical crime), didn't understand excactly what he was sue'd for, only what paragraf.They compared it with another case, who the defendant was prosecuted for crime of prosit. He MADE and sold, copies of parabol code cards.He got 8 months in jail, and confiscation of the profit from sales.NO WAY, johansen will get even close to this. DONT WORRY... he will probably win, and most certaintly not jailed.
Why was my last post about this rejected ? Was it a mistake, or am I censored ?
In this CNN story, they get the facts correct. The only mainstream news story I've seen that gets it correct.
John Lapeyre lapeyre@debian.org
Mr. Cracker X cracks the encryption of Corporate Product Y and hacks an app to exploit it. Cracker X then compiles a web site dedicated to the source code but does not present it as a crack utility.
In actuality, he states that he has written a story in the c language about foo and his adventures in bar, and posts the source on the same page.
This next part is trivial, but say he then adds as a later note that someone who enjoyed the adventures of foo attempted to compile it and realized that a.out can be applied to crack the encryption of Corporate Product Y.
Where does freedom of speech come into play here? All Cracker X claimed to do was put sequences of characters on a web page to be read as a story (this may sound rediculous, but I'm sure many of you have read the parody written in c posted here on slashdot, IIRC)
I have had no experience with the app of topic and I am not even sure if this is relevent. But if he had presented the source as text rather than as a binary, would he still be liable?
I apologize if this has already been debated on /. before as I haven't the time to sift through the archives. Please redirect me if so.
ZEN is a prime number in base-36
Um. What he said.
EFF has offered to cover the legal expenses in the case of a lawsuit. EFN (eff's sister organization in norway, www.efn.no) has also offered to cover an eventual fine.
If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
Get a job at any of the DVD CCA member corporations and do a really bad job. Take the paychecks and tithe to EFF.. :)
Seriously though:
We have the ability to defeat CSS for our viewing pleasure and that will _NEVER_ change. We are fighting for the individuals who are being targeted legally. This is very uncomfortable for all of them and we need to do whatever we can to help them... They have done so much for us.
What's the big deal about some Linux hacker playing a DVD on his PC?
I mean, to do it, you've got to buy the DVD player (which is produced
under license, as I understand it) to play a DVD, it's economically
impractical to copy a DVD (you can buy them much cheaper than copying
them), so what's the rub?
The only objection that I can see is that one can play a DVD without
having to have the player, but that seems a bit extreme to me. In order
to do so, one would have to download an entire DVD onto their hard drive
from the net, no small feat even at T-1 or better speeds. I'd much
rather just go out and buy a DVD player (they're getting cheaper by the
day) and play a DVD on my Linux box.
Again, I am entirely missing the point of the nonsense that the MPAA and
the DVD industry is putting out. They derive their money from the sale
of players and DVDs, right? How many people are going to download
pirated movies off the net? Not many - they're just too big! So,
people are going to continue to buy players and DVDs and watch them on
their Linux boxes. Where does the DVD industry lose money? I just
don't get it.
-- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc@pobox.com PGP KeyID: 0x0BD32C9B What I'm up to: http://intuitives.mine.nu
Good article, somebody moderate it up.
It's the closest I've heard the media admit to being afraid of "hackers." Of course they're not really afraid, they're simply preying upon public fears. It makes news.
Oh, and the article shows how this Slashdot thread is slightly blown out of proportion.
Here is the address of the English Version of the Letter. linuxguiden.linpro.no/protesteng.php
the following text was included along with the DeCSS "distribution" i had downloaded:
- ------------
- The Truth about DVD CSS cracking by MoRE and [dEZZY/DoD] -
-----------------------------------------------
Date: 4th of November 1999.
By: [dEZZY/DoD], [MultiAGP & German dood of MoRE]
This document is written cooperatively by the two groups
that independently and simultaneously cracked the DVD Content
Scrambling System, in order to straighten out mass media
confusion.
DoD -> Drink or Die: "warez bearz from Russia and Beyond"
MoRE -> Masters of Reverse Engineering
[dEZZY/DoD] alone is the author of DoD DVD Speed Ripper.
MoRE is a new group and they are the authors of DeCSS.
Lately, Jon Johansen of MoRE has been pretty much all over
the news in Norway, though he had NOTHING to do with the actual
cracking of the DVD CSS protection. Yes, it was MoRE who did
DeCSS, but the actual crack was not a team effort, MoRE didn't
even exist back when the anonymous German (who is now a MoRE
member) cracked it...
Most of the papers chose a headline very similar to this:
"15-year old Norwegian cracked the DVD-code".
They probably did this because they wanted to make a big
Norwegian "Wooohoooo" out of it. This was also pretty much
the contents of the TV show "Vestfold-sendingen" where they
brought up matters from Vestfold, Norway where Jon Johansen
lives.
In most newspapers they vagely included the name MoRE, and
that DeCSS was a team effort, but neither MoRE nor DoD liked
the headlines. Jon's comment on this matter is:
"I never told the media that I had cracked the dvd encryption.
What I told them, was that we (MoRE) had made an app called
DeCSS which would decrypt dvd movies and let them be played
off your hd, or off dvdrs if you have a dvd burner. I always
used _we_ and _MoRE_ when talking to them. I never said anything
about me or my position in the group.
Now that the storm is over, I see that all they were after,
was to get a big story. They even included some of "my" quotes,
which I never said. When media starts making up stuff, it's really
sad. I know that this has been done before in Norwegian media,
regarding the cooperation between a computer group at my school
and the school people in charge of the network. All I can say is
that I'm very sorry that the media twisted my words, and even lied,
to make it appear as I had done the cracking myself. I'm pretty
sure that I will do everything to avoid the media in the future,
but if I'm forced to talk with them, I'll have to get them to
sign an agreement. Again, I apologize on the behalf of Norwegian
press, and I hope that this document will make everything clear.
The truth shall set you free."
DoD DVD Speed Ripper was developed by [dEZZY/DoD] at the
same time as DeCSS. The first release of DoD's app (which
came out a couple of weeks before the first release of DeCSS)
did not work with all (WB) titles, like The Matrix. This was
known by [dEZZY/DoD] at the time of his release. MoRE decided
to wait until they could fix this. In short time, [dEZZY/DoD]
solved the problem and MoRE's top coder/disassembler from
Germany used that information to get DeCSS working with every
movie before they released it, along with a GUI. DeCSS was then
the first application which decrypted ALL dvd titles, since DoD
had not released a new version to the public. How MoRE got
their hands on the information by [dEZZY/DoD], seems to have
something to do with the Linux community...
Why Drink or Die didn't want to release a new version so soon,
was because warez sites nuke programs that are too close in
release (minimum 2-3 weeks). Meanwhile when DeCSS came out, it
caused DoD to delay any Windows release until a GUI version of
their Speed Ripper was done. However, they released a Linux
version of their ripper late October 1999. As for the new Windows
version of the Speed Ripper, [dEZZY/DoD] has been very busy with
his education and hence the ripper is extremely delayed.
[dEZZY/DoD] already got the idea of reverse engineering a DVD
player for the CSS code back in late summer 1998. He was not able
to do it at the time since he did not have access to a DVDROM. In
the beginning of 1999, MoRE's German member also got the idea.
[dEZZY/DoD] and MoRE's German member got CSS decryption code
working at the same time (middle of September 1999), without
having shared info (although they knew about each other). After
[dEZZY/DoD] solved "the problem", MoRE's German member, as stated
above, implemented these changes and added them to DeCSS for
release.
Before DeCSS was developed and released, MoRE had already sent
the source for the decryption to their contact in the Linux DVD
community, Derek Fawcus . This is the reason
why one of Wired's news reporters was put on the case.
[dEZZY/DoD] also had relations in the Linux DVD community (who
does not want to be mentioned), but decided not to release the
source code publicly (at least not for the moment).
Enjoy the software!
- Jon Johansen [MoRE]
- anonymous German cracker [MoRE]
- [dEZZY/DoD]
http://linuxguiden.linpro.no/protesteng .php
What is this whole thing about the Slashdot readers being powerless. Every time there is a DVD CCA article posted, I hear this we need to take a stand BS.
PEOPLE STOP TALKING AND START STANDING.
It may take a bulldozer to push a bolder off a hill, but one it gets rolling that bulldozer won't be able to stop it. Its time for action, we, the public need to start standing up and shouting.
In April of 1775, the first shot of the American Revolutionary war was fired. Let this be hailed as the first shot of a new revolution, a revolution of right against wrong, freedom against oppression. History shows that we can be sucssful.
The way I see it, we are not the body that is going to make them change, we are the body that needs to tell the masses that there is a change, that there is a wrong, and that this wrong needs to be righted, the change needs to be made.
One voice, united in nonviolent protest, for a cause is a strong force. Martin Luther King showed this. He was but a man, his actions simple and streight forward, the results changed a society. WE are many, our actions are not complicated, we must each stand up and say "NO MORE".
If every slashdot reader didnt buy a new DVD player, or that new movie on DVD, what would happen? NOTHING. We, alone, do not have the power to change the practices of a corporation, or a group of corporations. But we have to power to inform.
I propose this, start writing your local news papers, tell them the truth, get them to publish your side, more people will learn about this injustice. Write any technical or science magazines you scribe to and explain to them what the facts are, when they publish it still more will learn about this injustice. Have a firend, tell them, and tell them to tell their firends.
WE, the slashdot readers are the ones that need to make a change. WE are the ones that need to start informing people that action is needed, not the ones that need to make the problem seem insrumountable.
P.S. Someone, with better internet skills than I have should start a site deticated to this cause (sort of like Microsoft's Freedom To Innovate Network) so that our ideas, are achievments, and our plans, can be exchanged.
Nazisme har ingenting med frihet å gjøre. Dere er en jævla fare for friheten. / Nazi's do not support freedom. Nazi's will kill whats left of our freedom! Our rigth to speak and think do not meen anything 4 them... So do not let them tell us abovt freedom.
Everybody is going on and on about big multinational corporations. There are several things that most slashdot readers are forgetting.
1. It is not necessary for any corporation or citizen to ask for fair things in any American court.
2. It is necessary for a judge (Esp. since John Marshall expanded Judicial powers) to make fair rulings.
3. If coporations are paying off Judges then the crime is bribery not the lawsuit.
4. Corporations do not have the power to enforce - only the local police and federal police agencies (FBI,ATF, etc.) have this ability.
5. See number 3 about payola to police.
6. Any US Corporation has strong international powers if and only if the governments in the Non-American country supports the whims of the American corporation or union. This is up to the people (unless the company is a dictatorship - but that is a different issue)
Remember governments need to be watched more that corporations.
NOOO!!!! You'll bring out all the gun nuts, and the whole discussion will disappear in a mass of raging flame and gunfire!!
Probably due in large part to the open dvd site, CNN's story actually correctly states DeCSS is for watching DVDs under linux, rather than a copying mechanism as my local papers have been claiming.
Unexpected, but, "way to go" CNN.
This could mean that we need to use Specific Operating Systems to use DVDs. Such as Microsoft Windows, or others with few choices..
I don't think we could all agree to not buy DVDs altogether, However, we could possibly do this for a certain period, and use that as a scaling to see if it could be done, and maybe for longer on other occasions..
Say, set a week, in the near future, and get the word out.. Asking, that for the better of all, that no-one buy/rent DVDs, DVD players, and related items. Could this work?
I think so. I'm sure everyone wouldn't, though if enough to cost their industry some money (in lost revenew), I'm sure they'd at least look.. Might even put them a bit in check, via the medium that helps feed their greed. That's what this is all about..
It's about time we speak up for ourselves. It's obvious that the people we elected for this purpose won't.
Personally, I am currently building a couple of decent systems, and neither will have DVD considering the industry behind it could care less about me, and my ability to use this technology. Even though I feed them Fsck'ers along with many others.
Eric A. Griff <eric@cfpower.com>
Take the power back
I even said that legal defense funds for him should continue. There's no way I would sell this guy out, or advocate that anyone else do so. What I was saying is that the DVD-CCA, scumbags though they are, will probably win this round, so we need to take steps to ensure that even if they do we aren't set back tremendously.
By the way, does the DMCA apply in Norway? Last I checked that was a US law.
Possibly Samuel Sheinbein? His father was born in Palestine in the 40s (note the date!), then left before 48. Sheinbein the younger and a friend butchered another young gent, then mutilated the body to try to hide the evidence of what they had done. Their motive was apparently practice - it seems they were planning on killing someone else, wanted to make sure that they could get away with it and carry it out. Mr. Tello was just a convenient victim. So when Sheinbein, his father, and his brother all fled the U.S. (making the father and brother felons in the U.S. for helping the accused flee the police despite the fact that they knew he was wanted for murder), Israel did nothing. Extradite? No, they are going to lock this evil, vicious bastard away for a few years. It is my sincere wish that Samuel Sheinbein returns to the U.S. at some point, is arrested, and returned to the state of Maryland, so he can be removed from the human race. He is a serious contaminant in the gene pool.
itachi the bloodthirsty...
I can see the wave of Hacktivists from a mile away...
I think some suits have really done themselves in this time.
daft_punk
...are definately the answer. Better yet, one could be built such that the data could be stored and retrieved without knowing where the data is going to or coming from. Consider this: a system gives you a list of files available and you send out a mobile agent to search for one. The file would be stored on multiple, redundant, randomly dispersed servers. Once the agent found the file it would travel to a few random servers to prevent any direct tracking, and would return to the source server of the query. (possibly dropping it's data package somewhere along the way, ensuring that highly queried data would be better distributed...)
The data retrieval process would be slow, but it would be completely anonymous and very fault tolerant...
Because with a serious handgun like a .454 magnum or such, you do go hunting. Bear (for the rill brave and/or stupid), deer, etc. Relatively large game. And given the inherent lesser accuracy and shorter range of handguns, it is more of a challenge to hunt with a handgun. A handgun hunter has to get closer to the animal and/or shoot more accurately. I suppose you could also hunt small game with much smaller bore handguns, though it doesn't seem as common. And of course, for the literature fans, you can always go after that most dangerous prey - man (or law enforcement agents, if you think you're G. Gordon Liddy). I don't hunt, I don't own guns, but I believe in the second amendment.
itachi the increasingly offtopic
There is one VERY big flaw with your hypothesis. The lousy 5.00 t-shirt he 'stole' from the open safe was one he previously purchased, he didn't steel it, he simply retrieved his own property. As for impact on decryption of personal data by government, no implications, as the government doesn't OWN my personal data. Valenti and his cronies are nothing but an old west lynchmob.
Using a similar hypothetical, I leave my t-shirt in a friends car. It's unlocked. I open the door and retrieve it. I don't think I'd get arrested. If it's locked I ask for the key. If I'm told 'no, you can only have your t-shirt when I say you can', he is holding my t-shirt hostage. It's a little like the MPAA seeling me a DVD then telling me they'll hold it hostage to be played when and where upon their conditions.
I'll look, but does a DVD itself state that it can ONLY be played on official CCA licensed players? Is there any license I'm agreeing to when I PURCHASE a DVD stating that? I sure don't remember seeing anything to that effect. Maybe some lawyers should come from that direction??
http://www.mpaa.org/iisadmin/
and you can't be held responsible for this baseless slander, because you posted as an Anonymous Coward. But watch out, Rob has your IP address. And now, crawl back into your hole, nazi!
The fuss being raised over this breaking of DVD encryption raises a rather curious point. Why did they not provide some Linux drivers in the first place? The coding effort to create the drivers would seem to be much less than sending in the legal dogs to squash all the fuss this has created. Anyone with any computer sense should know that something like this was inevitable if they didn't provide at least closed source drivers to DVD for Linux. I mean, think about it. Linux, the one community of users that has more fundamental knowledge of how to work with computers than any other user group. Are these guys actually clueless enough to think that someone wouldn't eventually do this, or do they think it's worth all this effort just to make a statement? For heaven's sake, write the driver and be done with it! Those guys invented the encoding scheme for the DVD; they must have known it would be defeatable. Why did they deliberately exclude Linux? I would think the potential user base, while small compared to the Windows users, would be sufficient to justify the creation of a Linux driver. Why ignore the market, and create an environment ripe for the breaking of the encryption? Did they just not think about it, do they think it's worth all this just to defend an encoding scheme which does not protect DVDs even if not broken, or is there some other compelling reason to avoid Linux? Even now, when it has to be blindingly obvious that the Open Source community is interested in using DVD, they make no attempt to avoid all the fuss of people digging into the code by providing a driver. Even if the public believes the encryption is necessary for the pirating of DVD, they HAVE to know that it doesn't. It's their own industry! How could they not know that? The genie is already out of the bottle as far as illegal activity is concerned, anyway. The only activity that can be stopped now by all this effort is the use of the software in a Linux driver, or some other open use. Underground activity, whatever the heck it is they are worried about, will occur anyway. All the court rulings in the world couldn't stop anything now except use of the code to create drivers or other players. Why don't they make it a non-issue and write the driver? Any ideas? Another question. If a small group in Norway could break it, what's to prevent a determined group with actual illegal intentions to do the same thing? AND if illegal use was the intent, just about the dumbest thing I can think of to do would be to put it in open view on the internet. Just one more point. If a few spare time programmers are able to break this thing, and if there was any advantage to doing so, wouldn't it have been done long since by people who were intent on making illegal money off of illegal DVDs? Realistically, what are the chances that that Norway group performed an encryption-breaking feat that no other group of actually warped, pirating techies out there could have done? And a lot sooner, if there was any incentive? Helllllppp! Common sense, plese!
"I object to doing things that computers can do." -- Olin Shivers, lispers.org
Cases like this seem to come down to who can win the publicity war.
What if action groups were to pick on an organisation (such as the BBC) and were to email a department, or individual reporter with their story/complaints.
If their attention can be raised, especially were there appears to be a juicy conflict, then perhaps "news" can be made. Facts pro/con can be presented and if a case has merit, then it could have a good chance.
Since the DVD companies are motivated by commercial pressures and value their reputation, then adverse publicity could seriously limit their bullying tactics.
While at it, a list of contact emails could be created for use in cases like this. Why only limit the protest to only one organisation?
Mark.
Of course bullshit laws have a long and honorable tradition...
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
Itachi dun said:
I've seen two people on this thread mention hunting deer with handguns...I'd be really interested in knowing exactly in which states this is legal. (Believe it or not, folks, hunting laws vary--often considerably--from state to state. For example, bear hunting is illegal in Kentucky (because the fact that bears are in Kentucky wasn't even officially recognised by the Department of Fish and Wildlife until a bear made a visit to a rest area on I-75, and they are still considered a threatened species here) whilst Tennessee has a bear season.)
At least in Kentucky, hunting deer with handguns is actually illegal (the only weapons one IS permitted to use are long-rifles (such as 30.06, etc.), muskets (during "black powder" season--yes, we actually have a musket-loader season :), shotguns using solid slug (yes, irony of ironies, buckshot is actually illegal to use in hunting bucks in Kentucky :), longbows, and crossbows). If the DF&W catch you hunting deer with a .44 Magnum, it's safe to assume that you will be paying a large fine at least and will probably be shitlisted from getting a hunting license or deer tags in Kentucky ever again.
Conversely, for small game (basically, everything smaller than deer besides birds--rabbits and squirrels for the most part, but raccoons and possums too) it is actually illegal to use anything BESIDES a small-caliber long rifle (like a .22 rifle), shotputs, musket-loaders (DF&W really promotes primitive weapons here :), blowguns (I think), falconry and...handguns. Yes, if you're hunting bunnies or squirrels, you almost HAVE to do it with a handgun in Kentucky to keep it legal! :)
Tennessee, which is really the only other state with which I'm familiar with their hunting laws, has very similar laws to Kentucky (except there, you can also use semiautomatic weapons like the legal versions of AK-47s for large game--no, I swear I am not making this up) and there is a bear season (which is probably why AK-47s are legal for hunting there ;).
Oh, and in case anyone is curious--if memory serves, the only things legal for hunting fowl (like ducks and doves) are crossbows, falcons, and shotguns containing steel shot (this is just about the only use in Kentucky for buckshot)...not sure on Tennessee's laws re duck hunting. Also, shooting fish is now illegal :) and bullfrogs and snapping turtles may either be shot or fished (depends on whether you've a hunting or fishing license). :)
Caveat--my main interest in this is with friends who do hunt. Therefore I keep up with the laws and all that. ;) Suffice it to say that I've had wild game before and like it (through squirrel chili truly sucks because squirrel is entirely TOO fatty and gamey... :P) This is not necessarily to condone hunting, though--seriously, please don't unless you're going to use as much of the animal as you can; it's doing right both by the animal and by others who DO hunt (a sizable portion of Kentucky's population still hunts for food, for example). If you must trophy-hunt deer or turkey, get in contact with hunting groups that donate game-meat to the hungry so that the meat won't go to waste (you'd be doing good by the deer or turkey, and also by people who really DO need the meat).
-Windigo The Feral (NYAR!)
http://linuxguiden.linpro.no/protesteng.php
What the...? I think I saw a penguin...
Who want to play their DVDs, you mean. The MPAA and DVD-CCA don't mind at all if Linux users want to buy DVDs and put money in their pockets... Actually using them is another matter.
Their explicit position is that Linux users have no right to view their legally-purchased DVDs unless the DVD-CCA allows them to. Read the words of John Hoy, president of DVD-CCA:
One of the most frequent argument for why DeCSS is a Good Thing is that Linux people have no DVD decoder available.
Several people have said that reverse engineering is legal in Norway.
So: reverse engineering the Xing decoder to make and distribute DeCSS is not allowed in Norwegian copyright law (for a full text of the law concerning computerprograms and databases look at Lovdata's page.Now, before a bunch of other laymans lawyers like me pounce on me and say that you have to reverse engineer the Xing Decoder to ensure functional compilance with their DVD player under Linux: The law is about functioning with the program you reverse engineer. Thus I can reverse engineer Word to obtain the knowledge to make a program that functions with Word. Not to make another Word processor.
Jon Johansen did not write the decoding part for DeCSS, therefore they have nothing on him.
The Norwegian goverment is suing JJ on it's own.
Let me finish by saying that I think it stinks that you can't use DVD's on Linux, but this is because no one bothered to develop one legaly.
If someone want to chew me out for this they can either respond here or send an email to DVD@henriksen.no (last alternative ensures the quickest reply)
- Glenn
I am happy to tell that the #"#"arrest of Jon Johansen has been debate in Norway too, belive it or not.... Today a Member of the Parliament,- Eirik Solheim, asked the minister of culture about the governments thought of WWW......the answer was puzzling...... Give your vote to: The dept. that raided Jon Johansen: Økokrim Økokrim Postboks 8193 Dep 0034 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22865400 Fax: +47 22865499 Email: okokrim@okokrim.no Email comp.crime unit: datakrim@okokrim.no Prime minister of Norway: Kjell Magne Bondevik Statsministerens kontor Postboks 8001 Dep 0030 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22249090 Fax: +47 22249500 Email: statsministeren@smk.dep.telemax.no The lawyer representing MPA: Espen Tøndel Simonsen Musæus DA Postboks 727 Sentrum 0105 Oslo Norway Phone: +47 22936500 Fax: +47 22936550 Email: etondel@simu.no
Is Disney one of the culprits? I ask because I own some Disney stock. I'll dump it if Disney is one of the bad guys here. I don't want to be part-owner of one of the comanies doing this.
You are correct. It was a slip of the mind. (perhaps it was the mind washing of the anti-gun campaign)
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
They don't respect a little citizen with a gun, they just send the SWAT team to blow his brain out. One less IQ-deficient person in the world.
Dealing with the "big corporations" and government "invading" or inhibiting the freedom of the commmon man is often quite simply because the common man overstepped the bounds of society. Of cource the "big guys" overreact and abuse their power, especially in the US it seems, but the other alternative is total anarchy. Some leeway has to be given in both respects, but ofcource one should do whatever one can to correct a mistake, within the bounds of society, once it is apparent. Grabbing a gun and shooting people is not "within the bounds of society", at least not the kind of society I want to live in.
Paul Currie
Just a wild stab. I won't touch anything that isn't digital. Yes, I make an exception for vga.
If one said company does not want their product 'raped' for all its worth, then that company should not proliferate that 'technologicly' advanced product. If they are going to 'advance society' and bring the ubiquitous us to a greater luxury level because that product can get it done better or more conveniantly then MAKE IT MORE SECURE!!!! in terms of our (USA's) export laws, they are designed to protect, but like most things the government does, it hurts some one. It just so happens that our trade laws would hurt some rich, overly capitalistic loser's walet. Or they comprimise themselves and leave their product open for a full ~overhaul~ by some gifted intelectual who wants to further the technology of the commen individual who wants stability AND security through the OPEN and ~free~ environment inwhich some of us wish to exist.
Yet another person who doesn't Get It.
Well, I'm Norwegain, so sorry if I don't think American.
Dealing with the "big corporations" and government "invading" or inhibiting the freedom of the commmon man is often quite simply because the common man overstepped the bounds of society.
GMAFB! How did I "overstep the bounds of society" so that DoubleClick can track my every move?
I said usually, not always. Letting anyone track you everywere is bad, but someone is going to try to do it and keep on doing it until they get a hard slap on the wrist. You don't need guns to do that, you just need a legal/political system that works.
When did I "overstep the bounds of society" so that I can be arrested and punished for simply having a piece on code on my computers that the companies don't like?
What kind of code? DeCss or something more "sinister"?
DeCss is bad in the sence that it jeopardises the intellectual rights of the people who make the contents of a DVD disc. They might even feel so threatened that they stop releasing DVD altogether. Would that make you feel better if you knew that the reason we can't have DVDs is because people abuse the trust placed in them by the movie companies? When DeCss was released they (the movie companies) felt that trust was broken.
I have never had anything to do with illegal drugs, so when did I "overstep the bounds of society" so that my home can be invaded, my property confiscated, and my life endangered just because the government thinks I might have drugs there.
When society (which is guarded by the goverment and its policing force) suspect that a crime has been comitted they can investigate. What is it about Americans and "invading my privacy/home etc" that gets them totally on edge? If there had been a crime in my neighborhood and the police came to my door and showed me a search warrant I wouldn't complain, I would let them do their job. They might be wrong, but they might be right. I would gladly suffer the inconvenice of having my house searched if that means they can do the same to the people who actually have comitted a crime. That doesn't mean I would want them to do it though, and if they are wrong too often then need to get better at it. Fast.
It seems to me that I'm not the one who has been "overstepping the bounds of society". So how do you intend to stop those who actually are?
Let the police do their job. Its not a job I envy them to be quite frank. The media shouting police brutality if someone stubs a toe when being arrested for a murder etc. etc. Frankly the media in the US disgust me. And what is more frightening is that Norwegian tv channels are starting to broadcast show like "Americas wildest police shootouts" etc. Once that hits the TV screens you know that something is seriously wrong with a society.
Of cource the "big guys" overreact and abuse their power, especially in the US it seems, but the other alternative is total anarchy.
Since when is an empowerd populace "total anarchy"? That's just the big lie told to people to keep them from exercising their power. I guess to some people order and peace are much more importand than liberty, justice, and equality. And it was for those people that Hitler got the trains to run on time.
So as soon as the goverment denies an action to a citicen it is facist? Unless people grow up and take responsibility for their actions the government will have impose restrictions. Why is it illegal to kill people (not in self defence)? Because someone did at one point or another, and that means that person abused his freedom. You cannot have freedom without responsibility, and when people won't be responsible for their actions (even if we are talking about 0.001% of the populace) the government has to force it upon them. And it can not afford anyone to get away, since that would undermine the very reason for the government (and its police force) to exist.
Grabbing a gun and shooting people is not "within the bounds of society", at least not the kind of society I want to live in.
Helloooo??? Did I ever say "start shooting people"? Pay attention! The point of an empowered and armed populace is not that they will start shooting people.
The reason for having guns is to wave them around an not use them? Wouldn't that make them inefficient as a display of force, since you are not willing to shoot people anyway? And you will have to shoot people if you choose that road, because a building isn't a governing body, the people inside are.
The point is that the don't shoot but instead choose to settle their issues at the ballot box. Then the government has to honor the vote of the people because the people have the power to enforce their vote and remove their government if necessary. It's an issue of the people having guns and not shooting, but retaining the possibility should government abuse the power granted to it.
I.e. shooting people. The way to bring out the worst in a person is to put a gun to his head and screm at him. Why would you threaten to do that to people who are supposed to govern you? Civil disobedience (strikes etc.) work remarkably well, since a government can't work without its supporting infrastructure. Do you really think that a peaceful strike could be broken up in a western country with police force? Look at France, they have had massive strikes by truckes that has paralysed the country for days. Now considering the tough policy France has on terrorism, why weren't the strikers sent to internment camp or shot or whatever? Because a "civilised" country has to rely on a police force, which so far is made up of ordinary citicens, and they will have a concience about what if wrong and what is right. This is where nazi germany got its power to do what it did (IMO). Anonymizing the police force and segmenting (mentally) the police force from the people it was supposed to protect.
I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, having grown up with images of weapons always being used, but please make the effort to think about it. Violence is never the best solution, but the potential for violence prevents a lot of problems. It's called "deterrance".
And most of the time threatening an animal with its back against the wall will make it lash out. I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, having grown up in a big city with people who elegantly step over a homeless person. This is where the main problem is, the "if it doesn't concern me, I don't care." mentality.
BTW: Afraid to put your name on those viewpoints?
Paul Currie
Well, I'm Norwegain, so sorry if I don't think American.
Well that's obvious. Norway still has a king, doesn't it? I guess Norwegians can't be blamed for thinking like subjects rather than as a free people. They suffer the taint of monarchy. Also, there are more countries on the american continent than just the US.
Yes we have a king (notice the small k). A king with theoretical political power, a king who can walk down the street and sit down with his friends and have a beer at an outdoor resturant and not be surrounded by bodyguards. We are a monrchy since we have a king, but he does absolutely nothing when it comes to government, he is merely a figurehead. Get your facts strait. And the US suffers from an equally bad problem (IMO), a two-party system.
And yes, I know that there are other countries in North America. I assumed (incorrectly?) that you live in the US.
But where have those "slaps on the wrist" been lately? Wouldn't we bee seeing more "slaps on the wrist" is we had "a legal/political system that works". And what do you mean by "works"?
Works as in one that slaps the wrists. Didn't that come out clearly enough? If they don't do their duty and slap wrists, then they don't work...
Do you mean one that achieves justice, or merely keeps order?
Both, if possible.
Lately, whenever an individual "oversteps the bounds of society", he can expect punishment, imprisonment, or even death. When a corporation does it though, it gets a slap on the back, not the wrist, and a hearty congratulation for strengthening the economy. Yet you seem to think that a "legal/political system that works" actually exists.
I hope it does. If not, then what is the point? If humans can't live and work together then what does that say for our future?
Well, political systems are subject to entropic effects like any other system. Unless there is something to prevent it, all political systems degrade into tyrrany. And merely voting won't remove tyrants. That's part of the definition of a tyranny.
Voting won't remove the tyrant, but as an individual with a vote, its your responsibility to use that vote so that the tyrant doesn't get there in the first place.
DeCss is bad in the sence that it jeopardises the intellectual rights of the people who make the contents of a DVD disc.
BUT DeCSS is good in the sense that it allows millions of Linux users to exercise their right to view the DVD's they have lawfully purchased. You are falling into the trap that gets many fuzzy thinkers. Technology like DeCSS or firearms are neither good or bad. The concepts of good and bad are simply inapplicable to inanimate objects or technologies. Only human actions and uses of technology can be defined as good or bad. There are no good or bad programs, only good or bad people.
Ofcource, since guns and programs cannot act on their own. But some programs and guns are not made for any use other than bad. An GAU-8 is made for one thing only, and therefore it is not available to the public. Why not? Its a gun, so let the user decide, since he decieds if it is used for good or bad. You still can't buy it though..... Now why is that? Because the government has decided that it is not in its or its populaces interest that such weapons are available to them. If you really want a government that is not opposing personal freedom, then go to your local gun shop and insist on buying a nuke. Why? Well, because you want one. Its not like you are going to use it.
The issue lies in where the line is drawn between what a government will and will not let an individual have the opportunity to do. I am more inclined to give the govenment a chance, whereas in your eyes they have used up most of their goodwill.
They might even feel so threatened that they stop releasing DVD altogether. Would that make you feel better if you knew that the reason we can't have DVDs is because people abuse the trust placed in them by the movie companies? When DeCss was released they (the movie companies) felt that trust was broken.
You do realize you're speaking like a serf, don't you? You make it sound like we only get DVD's though the gracious indulgence of higher authorities like the MPAA. Let me remind you they are not "releasing" movies on DVD. They are selling them.
Serf just because I can see things from two idfferent sides? A serf because I am not ultra anti-corporation?
If their cost profits are jeopardized on this medium more than another they might just drop the one with the least payoff. Basic economics.
When I pay my money that I earned myself for a DVD, I have the right to do anything I want with that DVD and the material stored on it with the one single exception of reselling or distributing that material. The current MPAA lawsuits and legislation like the DMCA exist solely to take these rights as a lawful purchaser away from me. And there is no issue of trust here regardless. If the MPAA trusted anybody, then why the hell didn't they release DVD's unencrypted from the beginning? They are not engaged in their current lawsuits because we broke their trust in us. There never was any trust there to begin with. Instead, through their CSS technology, they attempted to deny us our rights as legal purchasers of DVD's. Now that their technology has been defeated, they are using the tax funded courts and armed police as a blunt instrument to continue denying us our rights as legal purchasers.
Just one thing. DeCss does not enable you to view movies on your computer. It enables you unlimited access to the digital information on the DVD. The difference here might be quite large. If they wanted DeCss to be only for playing DVDs, they would have included a play button, they would have removed the possibility for copying the data from the DVD to the harddisk, and they would definetly NOT have released a windows version, because there are players for windows. The software in itself is not bad or good, but what about the actual use. Are enough people "abusing" the software so that the only way for the government to protect the interests on the companies (which is also part of the job of a government) is to remove/hinder the use of the program? Time will show if our elected politicians act the way we want them to, i.e. do they have enough backbone to put their foot down when they see injustice?
What is it about Americans and "invading my privacy/home etc" that gets them totally on edge?
Well, not being a free person yourself, I can't expect you to understand what freedom means.
I'll comment this one further down...
"Let them do their job?" What about when the police themselves don't want to do their job? What about when they find search warrants too inconvenient?
Then its time to get a police force that works. Do you need physical force to change the way the police force works, or do you need political force? Do you need political force to make the politicians listen to such grevious problems? Then why the heck are they in power if they won't listen?
What about when they find their job made difficult by the rights of the people they supposedly protect and serve? Remember that not breaking into your home and shooting you is part of their job. And you say when they are wrong too often they need to get better. Well, Mr. Unarmed-Norwegian, how do you propose to make them?
Not by standing on my lawn with a gun on my hip anyway. Opposing the police with force is stupid. They are trained to deal with such events, and they will not hesitate to bring more force to bear than you can counter. The police need to be regulated like everything else, and its the politicians responsibility to make sure they don't do stuff like that. If the politicians can't do that because they are too lazy or whatever, then its time to kick that butt out of there and get a politician who will take responsibility. But do you need guns to do that?
Oh, right, blame the media. Look to the symptoms, but keep the causes. Tell me, is there real freedom of expression in Norway?
As long as I'm willing to take responsibility for what I'm saying, yes. I can walk out on a street and shout at the top of my lungs "I hate the King. The King is a bastard." without fearing arrest. Organising a neo-nazi singalong with ritual etnic bashing is permitted as well. Just as long as violence is not incited, I can do it.
God forbid a police force should suffer under any form of scrutiny. They're so much more "effective" when they can do whatever they want with total impunity, regardless of whether they are right, justice is served, or they respect the rights of the people. After all, what's another stubbed toe, false imprisonment, or murdered peasant for that matter, so long as "good order" is maintained.
What I was implying here was not to overlook police brutality, but the senseless pursuit of "poor underdog" everywhere by the media and lawyers.
- Your honor, I demand this case be dropped against my client since the police brutally savaged by client during the aprehension.
- What is your evidence of there accusations?
- My client was walking on his own lawn carrying a shotgun. He repeatedly told the police to go away, because him killing his uncle was "None of your damned business, y'hear". The stubbed toe contracted at the aprehension when the SWAT team tackled and handcuffed him.
- Okay. The defendant is free to go. (to the police) Get a grip you guys. Police brutality destroys the entire case.
This is pretty extreme, I hope you agree. A clearly guilty suspect (he can even admit it) can have the case against him dropped due to insignificant technical blunders/accidents by the police. And a case cannot, under US law, be filed against the defendant for the same crime. No wonder the police are frustrated and angry. Not that it entitles them to not go "by the book", but this isn't a black and white issue, there are a lot of grays inbetween."60 minutes" etc. are great programs, but no matter how you look at it "Americas wildest police shootouts" have no place on a TV screen. It glorifies the horrible use of force and makes it into entertainment for the masses. Bread and Circus anyone?
When government denies perfectly reasonable actions from all the people just because a limited few might do those actions in a manner that harms others, that government is a tyrrany. Whether or not it is fascist is another matter. Once again, I cannot expect you to understand what a tyrranny is (or fascism for that matter).
By your own words a US person who clams that owning a nuke is okay (he won't use it for anything) lives in a tyranny. The government has plenty lying around, but would they let this guy have one? I think not.
Wasn't Norway an axis power? Of course I cannot really blame that on the Norwegians. Being an unarmed subject people, they never had the guns or choice to prevent fascist tyrrany.
We did have guns ans such, but we didn't have enough. The smaller state will always get screwed militarily by the bigger nations. Do you seriously think that Norway could stand up against the US no matter how much we spent on arms? There are only 4.3 million Norwegians in the world, not much more than a US suburb.
Ah. Here we start seeing evidence of your psychology and why you think the way you do. Like most people with your views, you assume that people are naturally irresponsible and untrustworthy. You don't trust, and instead you fear your fellow human beings, just because they might cause you harm.
Do you really think carrying a gun makes me fear you less? And why do you insist on having the right to own a gun? Because you don't trust either, maybe? To me owning a gun (not for hunting) signals a frightened individual who feels the need to protect himself by any means possible. But that is probably because I'm not used to guns since they are thankfully fairly scarce in Norway.
And frankly by looking around there are many, many, many trustworth and decent people. But they are not that all of the time, some more than others. What should we do when the "bad" crops up? Don't make the mistake of thinking this doesn't happen to everyone sooner or later. Do you think all people are born with a sence or right and wrong, or is it learned throughout life?
You don't truly beleive in the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". You believe in punishing everyone beforehand in the vain hope that it might prevent the wrongful actions of a few individuals. You believe in holding all the people as guilty just because a small few might not be innocent. It's to difficult to simply punish the specific people who do harm, but it's so much easier to just punish everyone, guilty or not. You would deny people their freedom and their choices just because they might make the wrong ones. You prefer comfort and order to freedom and justice.
What I believe in is the nessesity for a police force to be able to jail someone during an investigation. The simple reality of the world we live in doesn't allow the goverment to magically spot the bad ones and prune them out as soon as they do a bad thing. Not to mention that once the action has taken place its kinda late to do anything about it. Often only a suspision is all they've got, and getting from there to a conviction is by no means a trivial matter. There are so many ways a "bad person" could mess up evidence etc. that they have to take someone into custody during an investigation. He is still "innocent until proven guilty", but he has his freedom removed. I agree that it is not an ideal solution by far, but what else is there? Without it maybe as much as 95% of the criminals might go free compared to today. Would you not suffer an inconvenient house search if that meant they could get the serial murderer off the streets? The system is in no ways perfect, but unfortunately its the best we've got.
I don't want total freedom, because that would remove all comfort. A balance has to be made, and to be quite frank it isn't bad to live in Norway, not by far. This is because a lot of things are simply not permitted. Our freedom suffers because as a species we are not mature enough to handle the power we are granted through technology. As individuals 99.9% of us are, but the 0.1% can easily mess up everything for the remainder of us. As we progress in technology (or we mature) we might be able to allow more freedom on an individual basis, but currently granting total freedom simply isn't practically possible.
You are not paying attention (or thinking). Did I say "wave them around"? The purpose of having an armed population is NOT to "wave them around". The purpose is to simply have them, so that, should all other possible means of removing a tyrrany fail, the people still have the ultimate means available to them. And you're right, that does mean possibly shooting people but only after all other possible means of maintaining justice have failed.
The main purpose of guns then is to kill people. They serve secondary purposes, but the main one is still to kill. Having guns as a last way out in a dispute is understandable, but it should no be nessesary. If it actually is, then its about time all guns were put into use and a new government put in its place where such extreme measures are not nessesary to make things happen.
When armed revolution is a possibility, governments actually put effort into resolving problems by acceptable means.
They do that if you can threaten their powerbase. A western society today have a lot more weak points that overthrowing the ruler by sheer physical might.
The problem you have is that you think that an armed public is a "threat".
Yes, I see them as a threat to themselves and the rest of society. The cost of having people with guns on "every corner" is one I'm (as an individual) not willing to pay. They might in an extreme case be used to overthrow the goverment and install a new one, but that happens once in a blue moon. The added problems of guns in daily life (accidental shootings, "though guys" with guns, worse working conditions for the police, etc.) outweigh (IMO) the benefits (armed revolution when needed).
You automatically assume that gun is a threat just as you assume that software like DeCSS is bad. You don't understand that an armed people aren't a threat to tyrrany, but the strongest deterrant to it. Do you understand the difference between a threat and a deterrant? From your posts, I get the impression that you don't.
Yes, I do.
Deterrance = discourage from doing something.
Threat = discourage from doing something by intention of punishment (if not compliant).
When you say "change blabla" to a politician and you "deter" with guns you are quite boldly stating and "or else we'll put a bullet through your head". What else can the gun be used for but shooting bullets? It's not like you are offering him a favour like cutting his lawn, you are actually threatening his life.
Also, where the hell do "buildings" come into this? Are you actually reading before replying?
My intention of this statement was that to overthrow a government you have to threaten to shoot people, and when they call your bluff you actually have to go through with it. This was because I thought that your stance on gun usage during a revolution was "not to be used against people". This was clearified further up in the thead when you said you might have to shoot people as a last resort.
Please do me the respect of at least trying to comprehend what I am saying. Only after all other possible means of resolving injustice and removing tyrrany have failed should the final option of armed revolution be exercised. But when armed revolution (and yes, shooting tyrants) is not an option, there is no incentive for a government to resolve such issues by any means, acceptable or otherwise.
Heck, it works over here...
I think your problem is that you find even the potential of violence (not actual violence) to be so unpalatable that you actually (and cowardly) prefer the peace and order of tyrrany to the responsibilities and uncertainty of freedom.
No, what I find unpalatable is that guns are only valid for one purpose, armed revolution, and that is supposed to end any gun control arguments. There are som many bad things connected to guns in daily life that I can't justify all that hurt and pain it causes people by saying "well, at least we can have an armed revolution". I'm sorry, but I just can't.
And if people were serious when it comes to armed revoltuion you would get an assault rifle or a sub machine gun. A handgun would be pathetically less effective in such a senario. Just a thought...
It doesn't seem to me that it's been the people who have been pointing the guns and screaming. It seems to me that it's been the police and government who have been pointing guns at the people and screaming. Apart from that, when the government stops governing and starts behaving like a tyrrany, then it it necessary to remove that tyrrany by any means necessary.
I can'treally agree that the citizes have been completely inert when it comes to escalating violece either. In my eyes both are at fault. But I agree that once a tyranny is in place, it has to go, and most often that can only happen by armed conflict.
Also, here's a little information for you: I, myself, own a gun. I have had it for several decades. You may find this shocking and surprising, but in all the time I have had this gun, not once have I ever "pointed it at someone's head and screamed at them". Nor have any of my gun-owning friends ever pointed their guns at anyone's head and screamed.
Which is why I'm continuing this discussion. If you had not been a sensible and thinking individual, your reply would have been much more discardable.
However, because we are all armed, government and police will have to think twice before they put guns to our heads and scream at us. That is what is meant by an armed people being "a deterrant to tyrranny".
Consider this. A police officer tries to apprehend a suspect of purse snatching or something equally trivial and gets shot dead. What do you think any other police officer will react the next time? They will have to react in such a way that if the suspect has a gun, he doesn't get to use it. Who do they do that? More force than before. Do you see the problem? The very fact that my neighbour has a gun and can potentionally use it against the police will make them behave more brutally towards me as well the next time we encounter each other, even though I might be innocent, since they don't know how much of a threat I pose so they suspect the worst. In this senario you want a gun so you can protect yourself form the (possible) police abuse, whereas I want the neighbour to give up his so that I don't have to protect myself. Isn't my neighbour infringing on my freedom by forcing me to protect myself from his indirect actions?
When civil disobedience has failed to correct injustice, what can an unarmed people do?
They can get weapons. Its not difficult to get weapons, so they don't have to be stacked in your closet (I know, a tad reckless) for you to get your hands on some. Every weaponproducing country will compete to sell arms to either side of an armed revolution. Guns will be plentiful in such a senario.
Ever heard of Kent State? What about the recent police abuses in Seattle? Are you aware that the police in Seattle only began to curb their abuses after the local militia warned them that it was considering involving itself on the side of the protestors? Suddenly, the police began to behave and the militia found that it didn't have to act at all.
I'm unfamiliar with Kent State, but the Seattle thing was very well boradcast over the globe. And to be frank the police when way over the line. The militia was an important display of force, and they quietend down quite fast. But would it have been more effective if politicians had heaps of angry mothers and fathers complaining about police brutality and how the defenceless and peaceful demonstrators were abused? Honestly I don't know, but that might have been just as efficient in the long run.
Simple. It's because the truckers in France already have a large amount of political power to begin with. Congratulations! You have recognized a case of people exercising the political power they already have. But have you ever seen what happens to a people who have no power whatsoever when they try the same thing? They are labeled criminals and crushed completely.
The same people could hardly lead an effective revolution quite simply because if the majority of people think they are wrong they will pick up their guns against the rebels. The people would no automatically get behind any and every revolution that crops up. If the cause is legitimate they might, but don't count on it.
But you are incorrectly assuming that "civilized" countries stay civilized with nothing keeping them that way. Civilization does not happen in a vaccuum. It's also strange to me how you can trust governments to be "civilized" and posess firearms, but not your own neighbors. You seem to think that police will have a concience and know right from wrong. Well what keeps them that way? It sure would be nice to live in a world where police have concience and know right from wrong, but from what I've seen, that's not how the world actually is.
The you and I have experienced two differnet worlds. The police I have been in contact with have all been professional and curteous. And why should we punish the 99% of good police personell when only a few are bad. Here I can turn your own argument against you, why should we punish 99% of police officers just because one or two might do something wrong? Granted we all see that they do wrong to tv, but so do ordinary citizens.
You are also assuming that the police are currently ordinary citizens and that they will stay that way. They haven't been. Since you haven't bothered to read and pay attention to my posts, I guess I can't expect that you've been paying attention to what's been going on in the world around you.
Yes I have. My world. The one in Norway where things are quiet and police don't walk around armed because everyone else might be. My world is nice and peaceful. I really hope the rest of the world will be able to experience the same society I've got, because its absolutely great compared to the stuff that goes on in other parts of the world.
What is it that makes the police not a part of society? Are they actually untouchable by the laws they enforce? If so, you have really got a problem that must be delt with as soon as possible.
In the past several years there has been a concerted shift among "civilized" countries to make their police more than ordinary citizens and merge them with the military. One of the many signs of this, in the US at least, is the current proliferation of 'gun control' laws. Many of these laws have special exemptions for police and other government officials. Now surely, if the police were truly supposed to be "ordinary citizens", they would be subject to exactly the same laws and restrictions as the rest of the public.
Thankfully that has not happened over here. There are some nuts trying to get the police armed, but they also want to stop immigration. Police officers must not be like efveryone else, but they must have the respect of the people they police. When they are excluded from certain laws it is probably not possible to gain the respect nessesary for them to get their job done. Sounds bad, but who let things get that bad? Politicians again? Why would that happen when you have guns to deter such stupidity?
No offense, but your opinion is wrong. The Nazi's in Germany got their power because people like you, who value peace, order, and a strong economy more than freedom, justice, and equality, elected them. And once the Nazi's gained power, they made sure they kept their power by confiscating all firearms from the hands of the people. And people like you, who trust your government to hold a gun to your head more than you trust your neighbors to have a gun in their pockets, applauded this move. Only later did the world see what becomes of this sort of mistake. Unfortunately, if your posts are any evidence, the lesson did not stick.
Why, thank you for that vote of confidence. Nice to know my entire world view and personal character has been dissected on the basis of two or three posts on slashdot.
Please go to a dictionary and look up the definition of what a "threat" is. Then look up what a "deterrant" is. They are not the same thing. I never said "threaten". What I said was "deter".
Well, threatening is deterrance with an intent of punsihment if you do not comply. When you have the means to punish, the deterrance becomes a threat. Look it up.
I know this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp, having grown up in a big city with people who elegantly step over a homeless person. This is where the main problem is, the "if it doesn't concern me, I don't care." mentality.
I know it's difficult, but please try to stay relevant to the topic. However, since you've added the subject of homelessness to this discussion, you shall now reap my response:
HOW DARE YOU SO ACCUSE ME!
I do not accuse you, read it again. I said people, implying "the average man". Do you dispute that the average man does not care for a homeless person or that most people in your country grow up in a big city (50.000+ inhabitants)? I was hoping to bring up the fact that people in todays society care nothing about a subject unless it touches their daily life, and I used homeless persons as an example, since not many people care about them. I guess from your response you have seen the look on peoples faces when they walk by or over a homeless person, so you know what I'm talking about.
You have absolutely no idea of who I am. This comment of yours is completely typical of the arrogance of those who form opinions in the absence of learning anything about the subject. First of all, I did not grow up in a city. Secondly, my own brother, who I love very much, is also homeless. How dare you accuse me of not having concern for his plight or that of other homeless people. But like most people with your views, you have no idea of what homelessness means or anything else about how the world actually works.
And I suppose you have not made assumptions about me, my country or my "way of life"?
You have no idea of who I am either. At least I post this message in my own name and not hiding behind an anonymous handle. How do you expect me to know who you are when you keep it hidden? I don't even know which country you live in, how old you are or if you are a man or a woman. Of cource I don't know you, this is the first time I've ever conversed with you. What do you expect?
Judging from your reply this is a rather sensitive personal matter, and if you feel hurt by my remark, I'm sorry, that was not my intention.
This discussion is getting very long, and way of topic. If you feel the need to continue the discussion feel free to reply by e-mail. If not we can agree to disagree and let this part of the thread die.
BTW: Wow. 3 hours. I haven't written this intensely since I was in school.
Paul Currie
Don't fall into the movie industry's propaganda and think that every raid involves blackclad men with machineguns ropejumping though windows :-)
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Glenn
I withdraw my prior statements
Well, I'm glad somebody understands how this place works.
Somewhat of an oversimplification, don't you think? My dad used to own a gun, no-one ever labeled him a terrorist. I'd hazard a guess there are millions like him.
I read this whole series of posts and I have something to say on the matter. As we write responses to eachothers comments, we become argumentative about things that we can't change. Energy is needlessly expended on a conflict in ideologys. I haven't seen an ideology change in my lifetime. Once they are created, they are usually set in concrete and there is no hope for change. Once a mind is closed, it is the breeding ground for arguments. This is a waste of time and energy for us all. I hope that we as a world society can find a way to resolve our differences in ideology with tolleration and compassion. Without a basic tolerance for others, we can't get along. These things pit Man against Man. From this Man can't survive while fighting himself. Guns aren't necessairy in a perfect world. I am a highschool student in Colorado, the sight of the Columbine High School Massacre, and I have friends who go to columbine. I have witnessed the effects of guns and I don't like them. Although the application of guns is done entirely by people, there is no chance for people to get shot if there are no guns. The reason the US has the freedom to bare arms is because several hundred years ago there was a need for them. I believe that I would be better off if guns weren't around me. There are other, more efficent ways to keep tabs on the government. To the Norweigen, I commend you for your love of peace. To the American, I commend you for your devotion to your ideals, even though I disagree with them. I also feel that you two need to commend eachother for believing what you do and understanding that there is no standard that an idea can live up to in two different cultures. I hope that you find a way to resolve your differences without adding insults to your posts.
Brandon Smith
Believe in the power of one.
Believe in the power of one.