Slashdot Mirror
id Software Announces Development Of Doom III
Stab writes: "John Carmack updated his .plan file with the startling news that id has had a bit of political infighting recently. In response to an ultimatum laid down to Kevin and Adrian regarding starting a new DOOM sequel, they fired Paul Steed! Read the full story in JC's .plan update." The important news here is that they're working on Doom III, but the decision to do so was a rough one for the company, not the developers. Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool.
Multiplayer in a darkened office with the sound of *your* chainsaw, pumping out of your Colleague's speakers. Looking across the desl at the panic in his face as the sound gets louder and louder; then silence as you switch to the double barrel... memories are made of this...
This is pathetic.
Carmack's original rational for creating quake to begin with was "because I don't want to do DOOM III".
Further, he announced ID was going to do something decidedly different after Q3A. Rehashing DOOM is something new? Give me a break. As if 'Return to Wolfenstein' isn't bad enough.
The first-person shooter genre is tiring and unoriginal. Why can't these bozo's come up with something NEW? Christ, the only company that ever did this was Looking Glass, and thanks to EIDOS/Shit Storm, they are gone.
Well keep in mind that you're just hearing one side of the story.
Doom 1/2 did not have dynamic music....it was just a midi file that looped throughout the entire level. it wasnt all that great to me, Quake 1 had better mood music.
Stock is not id's most significant asset. Technical brainpower is. And Carmack is the majority holder of that particular asset, at id. Thus, he makes the decisions.
So the majority stock holders can certainly go and move the company in another direction, if they want, and Carmack leaves. Somehow I don't think all that stock is going to be as good at writing code as Carmack is, though.
Its called "Final Doom" because Paul Steed, who looks and acts like Conan the Barbarian in a whorehouse, is going to sue id for every speck of ferrari red they own.
It aint right.
Even though doom was a "run around and shoot everything" it was the first game I think we (I'm guessing) felt had "atmosphere".
:)
In reality it had a thin story and a simple find-key-shoot-things philosophy, but the game did have soul. I personally am sad that Paul was fired over this (love you man) but I'm also looking forward to a game with (hopefully) the same feel but with updated and awsome graphics.
My question is about the new technology he mentioned. Does this mean that they won't be simply using the q3 engine and making a new game around it but instead will be starting from the ground up? Friggin' programmers!
This will be interesting to see how things go anyway.
Carmack will never be booted. He may decide to leave (a la Zoid leaving iD), but *any* company would be a fool to fire him.
Lets face it, the man rocks as a coder. I've heard that his code isn't the most beautiful, but lets face it, id has been at the forefront of the FPS/graphics/etc industry due a LOT to JCs code.
And IMHO id (or any company for that matter) would be fools to kick him out. Course, if they did Carmack would most likely start a company of his own so that he could do what he loves doing.
I think you're right to an extent about the graphics - although MK 3D, sorry, Quake III has some nice environmental detail - but the big differenece for me between the early FPS games that I remember fondly (Doom II, Marathon) and the later games is sound.
Everyone at games companies seems so obsessed with flashier graphics, sound seems to have taken a back seat, but the noises in a game of Doom give more atmosphere than any number of polygons can give the Quake series.
Uh, only the guy who ported Doom to Linux, among other things. He's at Transmeta now.
:wq
Boy does that sound familiar. At my office we must spend half our day playing counterstrike... :)
:)
DOOM was a great, and honestly, with the exception of SP Shogo and SP Half-Life (and CS of course) it still rules. These games have depth and atmosphere that no other games can touch - they're just clones. Yes, even Quake3, which I purchased, end up playing for 20 minutes and thinking "god this sucks", and then quitting, going to planetquake and checking to see if there are any mods in release soon. I'd like to work on one myself, but I have not the time to learn everything under the sun about Q3, i've had enough fun with just map editing thank you.
I just pray that JC actually uses his talent to produce more than glitter this time. It's nice to see Q3, but not very fun to play... If I wanted a game like that, "whack a mole" provides just about the same level of intelligence, and I get a good geek workout as well.
-Erik-
For those of you needing to fill the urge now, I strongly suggest you check out counterstrike, a modification for Half-Life. It's a shooter, but the object is terrorism/counterterrorism.
:)
:)
CS currently has more servers than UT and Q3 COMBINED, and Valve is literally helping the modification developers with the actual process themselves. This week Valve is developing brand new networking code for a game that is TWO YEARS OLD, mostly revolving around this game. (although they'd like to say it's TFC
There's nothing like silently walking around, walking through a door and getting shot THROUGH the door, in the head, by a M4A1 Carbine, then proceeding to see the blood trail hit the wall next to the door.
Think of it as Shogo meets Die Hard (movie) meets Action Quake meets the terror factor of Half Life and Hexen II. I've never fallen out of my chair playing Quake because I was so frightened, this game solves that problem.
Sorry for the ad, but this game is truly Something Different - it deserves the fanbase it has.
-Erik-
I mean, I'd love to play a nice OpenGL version Commander Keen.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
In fact, if I had opportunity and a decent proposal, I'd work for somebody like id even without job security. That is, if they'd allow me to do real stuff. id is The Name, and they do cool stuff. OK, they'll fire you. So you go to next one and say "I worked for id and I did Doom that you are playing at evening" and get twice as much and be looked on as Man From ID :)
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
You wanna real realism? Join US Army or UN corps or whoever is hiring guns. You'll get it all 100%-realistic. You wouldn't even need 3D accelerator, no computer, no OS requirements. Cool, ain't it?
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Quake 2 sure looked like Doom on a Quake engine. We had space marines, similar guns, kind of similar bad guys. The only difference was that instead of going to hell and back, they went to another planet that was pointing a really BFG at earth. Yawn. I think I'll stick to Half Life or Rogue Spear.
"What are the three words guaranteed to humiliate men everywhere?
In Republican America phones tap you.
Never mind Marathon. (II, Infinity).
.
Halo. .
I just remembered this old Metallica song. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
It'd be pretty stupid, though. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say the id would quickly cease to exist without Carmack.
Absolutely. That's not to say that Carmack's the only talent at id, but he's the sort of guy that people change companies to work with (seems like to me, anyway.)
Make me aerodynamic in the evening air
Straight Face? do you see any such thing here ?
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I must be delusional but isn't Quake 1, DOOM 3 ?
Sure it has a different storyline and you are fighting different creatures but the fact is the actual game play isn't much different.
One thing I really miss in DOOM was the sophisticated pozle aspects. You could get all the weapons and make yourself invulnerable with the "secret" codes but it would still be difficult to get all the keys and find the exit.
Appart from that it's just shoot everything that moves or refuses to move and Never mind if you suffer motion sickness, get dizzy or loose your lunch ( And it's not splattering body parts which cause the latter ).
One thing we really need in Doom 3 is something bigger than the BFG9000. I haven't figured out what it should be yet but it could maybe blow holes in walls the way real industrial strength weapons do.
Also, how about making you go slower if your health decreases and blurring your vision when it gets really low?
One thing I like about this dude though. He is strong. Imagine the weight of a Rocket Launcher, a chain saw and 5 other guns. Including 2 pump action rifles and a full machine gun with rotating barrels. This goy runs around carrying all of them with ammunition to match even when he is seriously wounded.
Talk about strong.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Shadowgate was this cool RPG game from Icom Simulations- originally on the Mac. I wasted many an hour (and it cost me many an "A" in college) on that game in the computer lab...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
We play DOOM at work every afternoon. DOOM, not Quake. We might sometimes play Counterstrike, but most of the guys at work don't want to learn anything new, so we stick to the stuff everyone knows and loves, and that stuff is DOOM.
I think Doom being the next project is a fantastic idea, but I won't comment on that.
Now why was Paul Steed fired? What was the exact reason because I'm a little unclear on this. Was it just (mainly) because Kevin & Adrian were mad? If so, that's plain bullshit. Even Carmack was trying to object to his firing. Now if Steed did something really stupid, then I could understand, but I don't see/read anything about him doing someting bad.
Yeah, but that's different than "Doom III" -- which was my point.
Not that it matters...
id didn't announce anything. johnc@idsoftware.com updated his .plan file. That's all.
.plan; it's not there.
Grep for "Doom III" in the
Too bad there's dirty laundry to air, and really too bad that we air it under yet another totally inaccurate title on the Slashdot article.
*sigh*
I agree with the previous poster that Quake II feels like Doom III...always seemed obvious to me.
Or uh... so I've heard.
--
Does narcissism count as a hobby? --Shawn Latimer
[idsoftware.com]
- -------------------------------
Welcome to id Software's Finger Service V1.5!
Name: Kevin Cloud
Email: kevinc@idsoftware.com
Description: Artist
Project: Quake 3 Arena
Last Updated: 06/02/2000 11:40:12 (Central Standard Time)
-----------------------------------------------
It seems like every id game is marked with some great conflict.
Paul Steed is one of the most vocal and controversial people in
gaming. Therefore, it is not surprising that his departure from
id would also be controversial.
John and I have strongly disagreed in the past. We have worked
out our disagreements and we will do so again. In the end we are
all excited about working on DOOM and committed to making a great
game.
Although Adrian and I alone made the decision to fire Paul, it
is the general opinion among the rest of id that we made the right
decision. Paul was not fired as a result of his support for DOOM.
Other people at id supported DOOM in the exact same manner. For
several reasons it was time for id software and Paul Steed to
part company.
This should have no reflection on Paul's talent as an artist.
It goes without saying that he is one of the best modeler/animators
in the gaming business.
As owners of this company, it is our responsibility to make these
types of difficult decisions. Adrian and I made the decision we
believe is in the best interest of the company.
John and I have agreed to disagree, put our differences behind us
and move on to make DOOM the best game we can make it.
Well, I never seriously played Team Fortress (I think I tried an early version once and thought "Man, this sucks!"). But anyways, Doom wasn't strategyless. The maps were classic and pretty well thought out for DM or Co-op games (both of which were fun).
I know your mind is already made up ("Nothing will ever top that. NOTHING. "), but Doom offered great multiplayer fun and there was a fair amount of strategy involved. I think the reason you found it boring is because you are boring.
If they control more than 50%, could they fire Carmack?
Well, yeah, they could probably get him pushed out the door if they really wanted to.
It'd be pretty stupid, though. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say the id would quickly cease to exist without Carmack.
While it's definitely uncool, at the same time you have consider that idSoftware is a fairly high-strung pressure cooker of personalities. At least, it would seem that way from all that I've seen of their history. I'm sure anyone who has worked there for any length of time is not hurting for money, and can probably find a decent job anywhere else based on their talents.
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
This is why i participate in Live Action Role Playing (LARP). I play in a fantasy game that meets a few times a month, and is based on boffer combat (padded weapons) noone gets hurt, if you "die" you can be raised (there is a magic system) and its possible to lose yourself in the character, especially at night, when you are with your small band of friends, and your being attacked by people in goblin masks, only its too dark to see that they are masks.
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology
Again, I say... umm, what's the difference?
He was still a developer. Not of software, but of the content. That makes him a game developer.
I have to say if Paul Steed got fired I'm sure it wasn't purely political; they probably disliked him to boot. I doubt either of the other two principals would cut off their noses just to spite their own faces.
Someday we'll all be negroes
The Sherman Project is yet another Half-Life mod under development, but unlike many, this one looks pretty good. It looks like it's trying to be ultra-realistic, with a damage model that makes Counter-Strike look forgiving, as well as a 'fatigue meter'.
:-)
Sounds pretty good, if you like realism.
Ford Prefect
Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
So what are the clans to do? Sure Doom 3 (single player, as noted in .plan) will include rich environment, and I know it will be an awesome game (because Carmack is working on it). But where does that leave multiplayer clans? Will we be chatting on our message boards about how to beat the level boss? I think thats a bunch of crap. Come on, ID has really paved the way for multiplayer clans, and they have created a Quaking society, but a single player game will leave us in the dust.
Elijah Chancey www.elijahsadventure.com nomadic IT consultant, bicycling across america "all that you touch / and all
Since the site is slashdotted, here's the .plan update (I finally got it after several tries):
- ----------------------------- .plan update.
Name: John Carmack
Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
Description: Programmer
Project: Quake 3 Arena
-------------------------------------------------
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated
explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM
as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill
to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea
that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the
mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan,
the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what
we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and
more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was
important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed,
new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a
new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand
new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to
say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We
will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving
misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be
one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you
have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider
yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
Looks like Adrian and Kevin cut off their own noses to spite their face. Throwing a monkey wrench into the new Doom effort isn't going to help their company at all, and doing it in such a manner certainly isn't going to inspire the best talent to flock to their company.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Steed did models and animations -- not software development.
signal, noise, to me it's all the same.
I noticed "single-player" was specifically mentioned. Unfortunately,(in my opinion, anyway) FPS games these days seem to be more often focussed on purely Deathmatch scenarios than on cooperative multiplayer or single player. (Cooperative multiplayer was always a favorite of mine). When I tried out the Quake demo long ago, I also really missed "Deathmatch with monsters" (randomly respawning monsters make a nice mild deterrent to "camping", in my opinion).
In short, I'd LOVE to see a remake of "doom classic" with modern technology, putting back cooperative multiplayer and "deathmatch with monsters".
(Of course, it doesn't hurt that, coincidentally, I've just 're-discovered' DooM in the last week or so, downloading and playing with lsdldoom and related programs...)
Joe Sixpack is dead!
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
kevin and adrian have been with id since it's inception. they are "rogue" employees, they are just quiet as far as the public is concerned.
b
I'd love to work for a company called Fukatron!
paul steed isn't a developer, he's an animator/modeler.
--
blue
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
There is an OpenGL patch called GLDoom, which someone hacked together. I don't have any links, but I played with it and aside from freezing occasionally, it worked great.
I like music
Half-Life, TFC, and CounterStrike. The three best games in existence and two of them are free (as long as you have halflife).
Marathon was OK but it was not the same as Doom ... Doom had this dark, very belivable athmosphere and gameplay was simply faster and better.
Alternative .plan link, being as bluesnews has exploded!
Half life is based upon quake II, y'know.
It's reasonable to assume that without John Carmack, Hook, etc. Half-Life would be not as good or would be much delayed.
That does not seem to be entirely correct. Try playing Counter Strike using only handguns.
"I've heard that his code isn't the most beautiful, "
:)
It is. Take a look at the Quake source. It's beautiful.
Wasn't that Quake2?
Alone in the Dark 4 is under development for the Dreamcast. I imagine it'll come out for PCs as well. They had screen shots up at dc.ign.com a few months back.
[idsoftware.com]
- ------------------------------- .plan update.
Welcome to id Software's Finger Service V1.5!
Name: John Carmack
Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
Description: Programmer
Project: Quake 3 Arena
Last Updated: 06/01/2000 02:51:45 (Central Standard Time)
-----------------------------------------------
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan, the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company): We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed, new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
Yea, but you can't select QUIT when you want to go to bed and you generally can't start a new "game" when you get shot..
Sometimes the real world is too real..
Geoff
Doom III? Come on, give us a break. Isn't the FPS thing done to death by now?
Totally, just like the RTS thing, the RPG thing, flight games, sim games, sports games and hunting games. Honestly, I don't know why all these game comapnies put out hundereds of these titles a year, you'd think people bought them or something.
Innovate. Just goes to show that no matter how talented the id Software developers are, their talent doesn't make up for originality.
And what would you suggest they do, oh armchair game developer?
Raise your hand if you're sick of running around blasting everything in sight?
Maybe thats why they have things like involving missions a la Rainbow Six and good plots like Half Life or SOF?
I was really looking forward to something other than another FPS from id, even if it's Doom III.
They do what they're good at. And why not? Id makes very flexible engines that fans can use for free and commecial developers can license so they can spend their time on other parts of the game and not worry about the engine.
There *is* a new wolfenstein coming out. It's being released by grey matter studios (formerly xatrix), under license from id. There were some early screenshots released at e3, and the atmosphere looks really amazing. From what I understand, they're trying to stay very faithful to the original wolfenstein, but in a 3-d quake iii based environment.
Doom also had something Quake and its successors never got: Zillions Of Enemies coming to kill you all at once. You don't get that in any shooters these days; I guess it would just be too taxing on the computer to have 100 monsters in 3D at the same time.
This really is a shame. Way back when Quake came out, I was pissed that fighting the monsters was like chainsawing a sperm whale: all dem bluddy critters had a billion hit points since there were less of them. Killng them was slow and often boring. Not like Doom, where you could blow things away with a single blast from your shotgun but since your enemies were a legion, you didn't feel any safer. One demon, piece of cake. 10 demons, time to worry. 25 demons - run.
Wish id found some way to do hundreds of critters in Doom 3.
You're thinking about Ultimate Doom, which was DOOM 1 with the extra episode "Thy Flesh Consumed". You could actually get DOOM 1.9 sans Ultimate DOOM, although Ultimate DOOM was actually free and the patch from 1.9 to Ultimate was and still is freely available from id's ftp site.
Final DOOM was two 32 level sets - "TNT: Evilution" and "The Plutonia Experiment" done by Team TNT for id.
(A lot of people think Final DOOM is only Plutonia, since some warez kiddies decided that Plutonia == Final DOOM and released it on its own.)
[idsoftware.com]
- ------------------------------- .plan update.
Welcome to id Software's Finger Service V1.5!
Name: John Carmack
Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
Description: Programmer
Project: Quake 3 Arena
Last Updated: 06/01/2000 02:51:45 (Central Standard Time)
-----------------------------------------------
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated
explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM
as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill
to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea
that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the
mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan,
the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what
we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and
more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was
important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed,
new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a
new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand
new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to
say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We
will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving
misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be
one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you
have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider
yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
BilldaCat
I remember some time ago that id promised another game based on the Q3 engine (or some of the new research carmack had) but WOULD NOT be a first person shooter type game. I for one, would like to see such a beastie come to light. I'm tired of the FPS type games and want to see some better use of the technology.
some examples would be a cool racing game with different tracks (could be car racing, motocross, jeep, doesn't matter), a cool dog fight (as in arial combat) type game (yesthis is technically a FPS but no guts and gore, etc), stuff like that.
At any rate I just hope DOOM III doesn't bump the other promised game into oblivion.
-- DuckWing
You probably aren't enough of an FPS junkie to follow plan updates, but if you look for a finger archive (http://finger.planetquake.com/company.asp?id=1 might be useful) you may find some of his thoughts about Apple taking consumer level 3D hardware and games in general more seriously.
License: By reading this you are agreeing that you agree with me.
All we know is what JC posted in his .plan. Paul could have told both owners to fsck themselves for all we know. JC also alluded that there had been previous instances where Steed could have been fired.
We don't know the whole story, it's no use trying to figure out their work climate. Maybe they're all happy to see him go? Who knows?
This isn't that big of a deal. Arguments happen in most companies, and people get fired/leave. At high-profile companies like id, arguments and staff changes are "news".
What about when Romero left id, due to differences of opinion over the direction of the projects? id has been fine.
Just another line in the gaming industry soap opera.
Most of these net play versions seem to focus on dweebs at home fragging their buddies across the net. Give me a world where I get to shoot the baddies, discover levels and fight to survive. An a believable reason for doing so.
Two words: System Shock.
And a word of advice: don't play it alone in a dark room. You'll have nightmares.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
STAY OFF THE HORSE!
I try not to judge others, but that is the gayest thing I have EVER heard. Grow a pair and stop hiding from failure. I get my ass kicked online frequently, but I continue to go back out there, because it's fun. I'm done throwing stones...
-- Jabber: Get the Message @ http://www.jabbercentral.com/
Good point! That's job security for you! Who would want to work there now if they can easily be fired for doing no wrong?
In most states, unless you are under an employment contract of some sort, you can be fired for good cause, bad cause, or no cause (basically for any reason the person doing the firing wants).
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Yet Another Post Consisting Only Of Unicode Characters.
Really its the same as all the other posts here, couldn't you come up with A NEW IDEA?
Hell, and these "books" these days, they've all got the same damn words in em....
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
I don't own a single FPS except Doom...which came with Linux.
I DO own:
The Incredible Machine
Civilization
A few Sim games
A bunch of non-commercial puzzle type games
A couple of non-comm non-puzzles (like XScorch)
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
I'm just glad Paul "fucking" Steed is no longer out there to show up on fan sites, berating the Internet for being a place where people can express opinions.
The guy is unbelievable. I mean IMHO no one can deny his model work. But he was a thorn in id's side for a long long time. Practically every time he posted to some message board I bet owner's cringed.
Keep in mind he's done many things in the past year that I personally would have fired him for if I ran the company. Those who would berate the rather silent partners at id (Cloud and Adrian Carmack) keep in mind all the times Steed pissed off the community with his statements about the fans of the game. Measure that against how many times you ever heard Adrian Carmack complain about the fans' opinions publicly.
All in all, a new Doom represents a hefty challenge for id. But I think they need a challenge, and I'm completely pumped about their focus on single player. The only bad part is like Dan Quayle, Bob Dole, and the entire cast of Battlefield Earth, we won't have him around to kick anymore.
S.
http://www.stepto.com
'to enhance "realism"'
Quake3 is in no way at all pushing to enhance "realism", and if you'd actually played it then you would know that. The game itself is very abstract and I would say "cartoony". This is by design, and it isn't intended to be realistic at all. In my opinion (and millions of others) it is a very fun game to play.
Some people like games that tend toward realism. If thats what you want play something like Counterstrike.
Why do you seem to think that a game is supposed to be realistic to be fun? What a stupid idea.
Of course rocket jumps are entirely unrealistic, of course you can't fire a real rocket launcher into the ground underneath you without killing yourself. But they do add to the game.
I don't see you accusing Pacman (one of the most popular games of all time) of not being realistic, why is that?
Move along folks, no conspiracy here.
OF COURSE he is looking to hire. If you just lost a wonderful 3D Artist, wouldn't you want to get another one right away?
My point was that that description isn't
exactly conducive to making people want to work
there. Of course, this is id, and many
people would probably give their right arm
to work there.
Kinda makes you wonder though. If they
control more than 50%, could they fire Carmack?
There's a thought. Will the new doom be able
to read current DOOM PWAD files?
*DROOL*
It is my feeling that id software has lost their innovative edge. I mean, their games really aren't that great anymore. The new innovative ideas and risks that they took with wolf3d, doom, and quake made them really shine above the rest. But it seems to me that after Quake, the innovation gasped it's last breath.
:)
Wolf3d: A completely new type of game and cool theme.
Doom: Amazing graphics at the time. Amazing story and theme. Multiplayer over the phone line.
Quake: 3D world. Multiplayer anytime with up to 16 players via internet. Part of the source released. Water
Quake 2: Opening cinematic.
Quake 3: cd-keys. built-in server browser. A big prayer that the mod community can save this shit game from the depths of BOREDOM.
iD better have some pretty good tricks up their sleeves to save Doom 3 from the train of complete failure. I don't think that backpedalling to single player is gonna do it either. Co-op type game makes more sense to me, or both. Maybe I'll be surprised. But from what I've seen over the last few years, I just don't think it's gonna happen.
This is kinda the writing on the wall isn't it? John Carmack is to high profile for them to just get rid of - without him, id is less than nothing, and I'm sure they know that. Hopefully, they'll get a clue, but I wouldn't bet on it. Most of the people I know in business don't care what other people think - espically if they are doing well and making money.
Hey Rob, Thanks for that tarball!
Scott
"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion." - Jed Babbin
What if Kevin and Adrian said they can work on Doom 3 if they get to fire one person. Would that have been more fair?
.plan file. I was hoping for more from him... maybe not a strike, but *something*.
There's a difference in being prepared to be fired as a group and being the only person fired. As a group, you rely on all the members being one powerful force.
What makes it worse is that Carmack DOES have the power to do more than just say 'Hey! Don't fire him!' Instead he gets back in line with no more than his
err, he did give a reason. Something to do with the new OS...
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
This sounds like Adrian and Kevin said to themselves: "Well, OK, we'll work on Doom III if that's what John really wants. But we aren't going to do it with that jerk Paul around, at least." If they've been wanting to get rid of him anyway, then doing so at the outset of the project is probably better than doing it in the middle. Maybe it isn't the fatal political bomb that it at first appears.
Nobody cares about the "story line", anyway.
Well, you'd think so, wouldn't you? Yet Quake I (for example) was consistently criticized (by the press at least) for having "no plot." Some people do care, but I agree it doesn't make much sense.
"Man, I can't believe you kissed a girl! That is SO gay!"
-Jimbo Jones
On the contrary, the storyline was why I was so fond of the Marathon series of games. They weren't necesarily graphicly advanced for their time, but the plot was engaging.
"But we do."
"But we don't."
"But we do!"
"Well, fine then, you can have your game, but you must sacrifice one of your own for it!"
(At this point, the outspoken one among them walks the plank for the sake of creative freedom, and falls into the icy depths...)
And so goes the sad tale of Id softwares creative team, versus the corporate junkies.
There is in fact now a version of doom that supports client/server based internet play. The source code to the original doom games was released a few years ago now but it's taken this long for someone to come up with a proper c/s implementation. There is, however, some contention about this in the doom community as the author refuses to release the source code in full. The doom source was originally released under its own license which would have allowed this, but has since changed to GPL. Anyway you can judge for yourself at http://csdoom.sourceforge.net.
JohnC is anything but "one employee in a company".
Apart from *owning* a large slice of id he is also it's reason for existence. There is no id without JohnC, he is their chief developer (the other coders do debug and support systems such as vendor specific opengl tuning and gui rendering...) as well as "the man with the vision". To fire him would be like shooting the goose that lays the ($30mil-a-year) golden eggs..
...
Yes, I know I ramble and my spelling isn't quite up to scratch. If you wish to complain,
...so true, so highly rated, yet so few replies!
But you're right... Doom has been done, and so much of what made it great can't be redone at this point.
First Looking Glass closes down, now this news: it seems a depressing trend is starting.
Bold original new PC games (maybe console games too) are too risky. The financial backing tends to suffer... just see Interplay's and Acclaims potential delisting from NASDAQ.
Id had the money to do new original stuff, but they're reverting to the old school. How unfortunate.
Oxryly
Gotta disagree with you there. Q3 is a pure multiplayer game, so there is no need for a plot. But Half-Life had a very interesting and well-presented storyline that kept me curious all the way through. The ending sucked, but that's a separate issue. :) I cared very much about the story line in that game, specifically wanting to find out who the hell the Agent-looking guys with the suits and sunglasses were.
- Rev.Go figure. I liked him. He told it like it was. Honesty is a rare thing these days. Especially mass-media-public-honesty. Course, if you'd rather hear only what you want to hear, go right ahead.
Me, I'll mourn the loss of Mr. Steed from my second favourite video game company (Loki being the first). Not just because of the artistic talents that leave with him, but because he had actual opinions and feelings. Gee, he wasn't just a corporate PR robot. Good for him. Do we really need more of those? I don't think so.
Random and weird software I've written.
I remember(fond) many years ago playing Doom and the 'sequels', downloading the huge amount of .wad files from the internet and enjoying every minute...
especially when the action becomes really frenetic (opening a door to a room and discovering it full of monsters - heart-stopping stuff!)
Since then, I hav not played any similar games that had the same atmosphere...
Quake(I, II, III, XXVVII!) had plenty of atmosphere but lacked the 'intensity' of the Doom games.
As long as the new Doom game does not become a 'high concept' (bugger all substance!) - like a certain other game that spring to mind...
I'll wait and see before I get too excited!
http://finger.planetquake.com/ plan.asp?userid=johnc
> I completely agree. Characters make the heart
> and soul of game, not the engine. Paul provided
> that heart and soul.
If Paul provided the heart and soul of id games, maybe he ought to have been fired. id games always seemed a bit dull to me, especially single player. Half life was much better for single player.
Ryan
When is id gonna drop the whole "space marine" bit that they've been using for 10 years now? It's time for something NEW.
I'd love to see a redone keen. And actually, there was some mention awhile back of making Keen on the color gameboy.
-- Superlame http://catpro.dragonfire.net/joshua/
how my post got to "Insightful" I have no idea...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I was hoping that this month was April, and that tomorrow id would say something like 'June Fools!' and promise us they'd never fight again.
However, I think most posters lately have been unnecessarily dismissive of id as 'just another game company' who produces the same game over and over and over again. Do these folks not understand that Doom and its successors spawned uniquely enormous gaming communities unrivaled in their game genre? id is in the serious business of nurturing these fans, thereby guaranteeing loyalty to their brand of products. Perhaps only Blizzard produces a similar effect with their games and the communities built up around them.
id's new game is more than 'just another first-person shooter.' Fans look forward to more than just another mindless opportunity to blow computer-generated monsters to pieces. If it were just that it wouldn't be fun for anybody anymore.
For everybody running unix based boxen, all you need to do is run .plan without going through Blue's terribly /.ed finger script...
finger johnc@idsoftware.com
and you get the
Andrew
They were Team TNT: www.teamtnt.com
We may only be hearing from Carmack thus far, but..
.plan updates for years now. And, though I may have disagreed with him on some occasions ("Apple sucks" comes to mind, tho he sure seems to have changed his opinion there), I've never had reason to suspect that he was being untruthful or deceitful. If you'll forgive the cliches, he seems to be a "shoot from the hip, call it like he sees it" kind of guy.
I've been following his
And he's also a kick-ass programmer in every imaginable way.
All things considered, I'm more inclined *BY FAR* to beleive John Carmack than a couple of anal-retentive suits, and their PR/marketing drones.
john
Imagine all the people...
Half Life and Kingpin blow Q2 out of the water. I'm tired of the run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot and run and shoot gameplay of id games.
Then you might be pleasantly surprised by Doom III. According to what John has said, it will be designed to give a completely immersive single-player experience--which strongly suggests that it will be very different from the Quake series, which were all designed with multiplayer in mind. Indeed, if I had to guess I'd say it will be most like...well, Half Life. (Of course, with its mods HL has some pretty badass online play too.)
Yeah, but they get really perturbed when you start firing at cohorts on the firing range.
The cake is a pie
Diablo had one of the best soundtracks I've ever heard. It is one of the few games where I never turned it off.
The cake is a pie
I now have this image in my head of a FPS version of "Commander Keen". Shooting slugs with stun-rays in modern, Quake-style graphics.
(Though I suspect the screen wobble caused by the pogo stick will just make people hurl.)
The cake is a pie
You are the CEO and has to kill all your employees, the ones working on free software give bonus points !!
'We are working on a new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand new technology in almost every aspect of it. '
I was expecting them to come up with a title even more strongly focused on online gaming (see evolution of Quake series). Their networking code is second to none.
Pity, I would've liked to see what id would've made of the Metaverse.
Great games
> I always though the neto-o polygon graphics were worse than the bit maps.
:)
For looks yes. BITMAPS will continue to look FAR better then poly models for some time.
> Polygons may work fine for angular things like robots but when your trying to do curvies like humans they still come out jaggy.
This is EXACTLY the one big problem with polys. Curved surfaces have to be appoximated, which means more polys need to look decent, which lowers the frame rate.
> The next big push in gaming is overcoming the jaggy problem.
The "technical" names are "poly count" and "triangle throughput." (Low poly modelling is an ART.) With cards like the GeForce being able to draw 15 million texture tris / second, we are slowly getting there. But 3D games won't look as good as 2D games until the graphic cards can push 100 million texture triangles per second.
Look at Baldur's Gate to see just how beautifull 2d looks
> Honestly, he can bias the entire teenage-20 male world against evil microsoft at the drop of a hat
Have you ever used OpenGL, or even programmed?
Microsoft shoved Direct3D down our game programmers throats whether we wanted it or not, when a BETTER 3d rendering API was available.
I think that was pretty sad of id to retaliate like that, but we are only hearing one side of the issue of course... I know I will be modded down for being off-topic, but I really want to find the Heroes of Doom/Doom II .wads. They were completely badass collections that had extremely fun opportunities for co-op games. Used to be on PC Gamer's web site back in 96 or so. Anyone know where I can find them?
"It is a far better thing that I do, than that I have ever done..." "It is a far better thing that I do
Running all the time would increase your heartrate, and eventually you'd lower your health by having a little red `siezure'.
Stimpacks would lower your heart rate. Adrenalin Packs would raise it but increase the viciousness of hand held weaponry.
> BTW, who are you?
Diamond Dave Taylor. Currently of Transmeta, Formerly ID [Doom era] and Crack.com [Abuse].
When you did the map cheat in doom, and typed IDDT, it stood for iD Dave Taylor.
I completely agree. Characters make the heart and soul of game, not the engine. Paul provided that heart and soul.
I agree that this will cast a cloud on Doom 3. I'm not really looking forward to it, unless they do something REALLY revolutionary. Tell you the truth, I'm getting tired of this "run around and shoot at anything that moves" type of game, and would much rather devote my time to something with more thought behind it, such as Half-life, or the many very interesting and different mods that are out for it. THEY are the true inventors...
I sig, therefore I am.
But thats what driving the emotions, nostalgia. You are remembering the first time you played this revolutionary game. However, now that this type of stuff is pretty commonplace now, no one will get the spark that the first games of this genre created. (Crap, I remember almost pissing myself during Wolfenstein late at night when a Nazi dog came out of nowhere and killed me.)
I'm not discounting id yet... but they need to do something different.
I sig, therefore I am.
(Little off topic, I know, but...) I can't comment on the quake source code, but the SDK source code that comes with quake3 is certainly far from beautiful. It's inconsistent, incoherent and at times purely irrational. Big, obscure important portions are left uncommented; meaningless and obvious stuff is commented all to hell; sometimes the comments make less sense than the actual source code itself! Sometimes he uses switch statements. Sometimes he uses tons of if/else statements. What's worst are these large, bizarre, obscure (uncommented!) optimizations. I've also noticed that when I code for quake3, I don't bother to be anything but sloppy - seems like a waste to make neat, orderly islands in a sea of chaos. Of course, I have no doubts that Carmack is ten times the coder I am, and can afford to be lazy and sloppy. But that's the problem; I can't! Developing for UT, based on my limited experience, has been a sheer pleasure. The code is neat and easily extendable, because it's object oriented. Quake3's code is C, for christ's sake, and UT still manages to run better on my old hardware.
(slightly more on topic) I certainly don't think that ID is at the forefront of ingenuity in the FPS realm, and I'm certainly not surprised that all the best mods are being developed for UT. But my friends love quake3, and I love them both, so our mod is gonna be done in quake3 after all. Kind of a shame; if we had developed it for UT, we might already be done.
(actually on topic) It's sad to see Paul go, though. He'll certainly be missed, though I'm sure we'll see him at another gaming company soon enough. Maybe Epic! Oooooh. Maybe Valve!
It's just a game. I mean come on, this can't be all that they are fighting about. If so, everyone in the company is being extremely childish. I mean, it's just a game, that isn't something that should break up friendship. I think that all the employee's should take a step back and forget their passionate ideas for a minute and look at just what is causing so much trouble. IT IS JUST A GAME!!! A string of 0's and 1's. Common guys, look at what you are doing.
Shaun Jamieson
Actually it would be gay (or hermaphroditic -sp?) if I actually did "grow a pair" since I am also my sister's sister. Unfortunately my anecdote is true, so it is pretty lame (although I was looking for a couple laughs by posting it...) I think my sister is some sort of freak of nature though since she has played Catz/Dogz on the computer for years and still isn't sick of it. She also learned HTML basics in a couple hours on a weekend when she was 10 (now she is almost 12). I should actually watch what I say about her on /. she will probably become a reader soon and see my archived posts about her...
Of course. They need to fire people to get a power source for the engine.
:-P
Get it?
nuclear cia fbi spy password code encrypt president bomb
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
Are you still doing that enhanced linux Q2 port? I think myself, and many others would appreciate this a lot as the current version is a little hacky ( _windowed_mouse [0|1] et al.)
thx.
Timbo.
http://www.gamezone.com/gamesell/p14324.asp
Only link I could find anymore...
Later.
Since the plan seems to be slashdotted, try this link
y'all have got to be kidding me. this is something to get excited about? more important, this is something to get Paul Steed fired about?
i've played Doom 1, Doom 2, and Final Doom, and i must confess i thought they all sucked. the same repetitive gameplay over and over and over... find gold key to open gold door. compensate for tougher enemies by shooting them with a bigger gun. when you get bored with that, engage in twitchy, strategyless deathmatch with friends. no storyline to speak of, no challenging AI, and butt-ugly levels.
i realize that this game essentially created the FPS genre (yeah, there was Wolfenstein before, but Doom definitely eclipsed it). i'm all for giving historically important games their due, but do we really have to sit through YA-Doom? (yes, i know i don't have to buy it. but i will be deprived of whatever game id would have been creating while they were wasting their time on Doom 3.)
then again, it's possible that Doom looks so shabby to me because my first FPS was Marathon. i suppose if you didn't know any better, Doom looked kinda cool. wow! we can have rooms that aren't perfect rectangular solids!
bah. such a loss, for so little potential gain.
-steve
--- "We also were guided by the unlikelihood that anyone would face supernatural evil armed only with technology."
I think the thing about Doom that kept me on the edge of my seat was the storyline. A sci-fi story that leads (literally) straight to Hell is just awesome.
Did anyone actually even pay attention to the storyline for Quake? Just wondering...
oh my word. reading this post made me feel ill.
WHAT STORYLINE??!? kill some demons. kill some more demons. damn, the demons are getting bigger and meaner - must be getting near Hell! oh yeah, and there was some vague mention of a moonbase or something.
have you ever played Half-Life? have you ever played any of the Marathon series? Pathways into Darkness? hell, have you ever played one of the Tomb Raider games?
Doom lives on in my mind as the shining example of a game entirely devoid of storyline. id discovered that this lack failed to deter people from buying it, and they haven't looked back since (except for maybe Quake 2, kinda sorta).
-steve
--- "We also were guided by the unlikelihood that anyone would face supernatural evil armed only with technology."
Given the choice between Q3A and UT, I'll take UT. It's even more polished than Q3A, IMHO.
i tend to agree with you. i find UT's bots to be more challenging opponents than Q3A's, for when there's nobody to DM against.
my only complaint with UT is that i've never successfully managed to play an Internet game that wasn't lagged to the point of unplayability (and i'm connecting over a cable modem). has anyone else had this problem? i'm running the most recent version of UT for Mac.
on the other hand, UT does have my favorite sniper weapon of all time, bar none.
-steve
--- "We also were guided by the unlikelihood that anyone would face supernatural evil armed only with technology."
the market is over saturated as it is. Why make yet another shooter? borrrrrinngg. I think in one of the .plans sombody said something about not having a rocket launcher in their next game... how they gonna pull that off with doomIII bad marketing plan. bad.
-= Briareos =-
Hey Zoid, you should check out the Generations Arena project that we got going at Wirehead... It's not exactly like the old Generations project for Q2 (in as much as this one is legal and doesn't cover any SP aspects at all)... We could use some doom styled CTF maps (Kiltron is currently working on a custom texture pack for us 'in the style of' Doom)
:-)
Take a look and see what you think
-Amphetamine
Please inster the disc marked "Psychotic Episode"
Actually, if you read the post again, you'll note the line:
when you get bored with that, engage in twitchy, strategyless deathmatch with friends.
I am a Quake fan, so your "Quack" remark already put you on rough ground with me. I have played some multiplayer Doom, and it sucks. It sucks REALLY REALLY HARD. Quake 1 made multiplayer FPS gaming what it is today, even if Doom had the option somewhere in its menus.
In my opinion, multiplayer gaming perfection is Quake 1 with the TeamFortress mod. Nothing will ever top that. NOTHING.
Did anyone actually even pay attention to the storyline for Quake? Just wondering...
I believe it was identical to the story in Doom, only less Hell and more Aliens.
The network code for Doom1 is the culprit there. A number of companies banned doom because of the first version's network code. By Doom2, the code had been optimized so that it no longer flooded the network with useless packets. In any case, network code has progressed quite a bit since the days of doom, they'd be insane to even consider using the original code.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
I agree in general, but I think that it's entirely possible that a shake up is potentially the desired result. If you've got >50% of the controlling interest against an arguably good idea then there need to be some changes. Either Carmack will be booted out or he won't. Either way he'll land on his feet. If he stays, he's exposed the controlling interest for what they are thus causing them to lose face, if he goes then he will probably pull all the talent away from Id to make a new company.
Actually, I would say this is a particularly smart move on Carmack's part. I strongly suspect that they'll end up firing him and that Carmack will pull all the Id talent away with him to work on something similarly "doomish". Id's reputation will then be shot to hell and they'll be forced to fade into obscurity or make some major changes in order to get people to even consider working for them.
Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
I agree, I was responding to the "will we ever get beyond 1st person shooters" and saying that what Looking Glass did went a long way toward evolving a new type of game based in the 1st person shooter model (IIRC they called it a 1st person sneaker).
Not how they were forced out of business.
-------- This space intentionally left blank --------
His reason for not liking MacOS were purely technical ones (and really, do you blaim him). It is well known that Carmack has been a long time NeXT fan, which (I think) Steve Jobs used to run. Apple are getting rid of MacOS. JC is behind them and confident that MacOSX will be good.
No, I think that's absolutely wrong. The people who do the work should decide what they want to do. It's the drive for profits and appeasing share holders that make companies like Time Warner and Microsoft. It should be about the people who do the work and the people who benefit from the work, not about the money/profits. Idealistic thinking, yes... but so is having all software Open Source. It will probably never happen, but that's the way it should be.
all-new engine using brand-new technology?
:)
Well, yes, it would be hard to make a single-player game out of the Q3A engine, as it's so optimized for deathmatch. Just gimme Doom running an engine on the same level of Q3A, Halflife, or Unreal, and I'll be _very_ happy.
I look forward to the next Doom. The atmosphere in the original (Doom I episode I in particular) was just EERIE. Updated graphics and a new engine will be amazing.
:)
Indeed. I've always prefered single-player games (Doom/Doom II, Freespace/Freespace2, and many console games) to multiplayer stuff. Especially the first Doom. I remember 2 of my brothers and myself playing marathon games, all 3 episodes, straight through (switching off every level or so).
I didn't like Quake very much (I mean it was OK, but I never even played it the whole way through), but Quake II really brought back some of Doom atomosphere for me. Also variety - I really liked the level when you set up the airstrike on the fuel bunker, stuff like that.
Hopefully Doom III will deliver a Doom-like experience with Q3A technology.
When was Romero ever a useful part of id or any other company... He just combs his hair all day and denies the truth that Daikatana is a flop...
Welcome to id Software's Finger Service V1.5!
Name: John Carmack
Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
Description: Programmer
Project: Quake 3 Arena
Last Updated: 06/01/2000 02:51:45 (Central Standard Time)
-------------------------------------------------
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting .plan update.
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan, the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company): We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed, new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
----this is my sig----
B1ood
Note to self: pasty-skinned programmers ought not stand in the Mojave desert for multiple hours. -- John Carmack
John Carmack just happens to be the most visible.
After I beat Doom2 on its hardest level, I would go back in in God-mode, and incite fights between the various monsters, stand back and watch them fight like Gladiators. Oh such fun the Doom AI. Doom, Doom 2, Heretic, and Hexen were the only 1st person shoot'ems that I ever loved.
He never said he had a problem with the GUI or anything. It seems to me that a lot of Mac enthusiasts believe the GUI is the OS (and Apple isn't really helping that notion).
MacOS X fixes the problems that JohnC was specifically complaining about, and therefore decided to support it.
Did anyone actually even pay attention to the storyline for Quake? Just wondering...
I believe it went something like this: The Government (tm) were developing a method for interdimensional travel (like you do), involving jumping from so-called slipgate to slipgate, and then this big nasty, codenamed Quake (boo, hiss) suddenly got their hands on all of them and started doing, like, evil stuff. About halfways through the game we learn Quake's true identity (Shub-Niggurath) and the hunt for the Great Jelly-Like One continues from there.
Jesus it was pathetic! Still the best multiplayer game bar none though, IMHO.
The conclusion of your syllogism, I said lightly, is fallacious, being based on licensed premises
Doom3 will only be cool if we can create another Barney Wad. Ohh But update it this time. Since Microsoft makes talking barneys Barney will have to be covered in MS logos. oh and how fun would a Teletubbie Wad be? *pulls out his BFG* take that lala! And a BillGates Borg Wad would friggen rock also.
--------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
Alone in the Dark is being redone with modern tech. I don't have the URL handy. It looked rather nice.
-- Chapman's Observation #1: Nothing is ever simple
But not sad enough to hold back from fragging you when we play Doom III online. I think I speak for most Doom and Quake players when I voice my apathy with the offline flesh world. These last years of playing Doom and Quake have finally stripped myself of any compassion or empathy, and I'm finally reaping the rewards of that! Yeah!! Die!!!
It is generally a sign of deterioration when a company brings its fights public...especially among senior management. ID makes great games. Paul Steed may be a great programmer, but it takes more than that to succeed. ID might replace him with the most talented person in the world, but it will take more than that to succeed. John Carmack might be the ultimate "Game God", but even that isn't enough to ensure success. Basic business must prevail. Provide your customers with what they want and more at a price that's equal to or less than they expect to pay. If ID focuses on that, great. Otherwise...can someone play Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust"?
What the hell is this? I mean, I'm literally shaking. I can't believe that the people at Id would ever do such a thing. True, I only knew them through their interviews and, of course, games, they seemed so dedicated to, and only to, making good games that this seems impossible. I mean, Paul Steed...Paul fucking Steed! Pardon my language, but shit man! As an artist....the best things that came out of the games were the characters! Lifelike to the extreme, thanks to Paul. And all this infighting.... I simply can't believe it. "Doom 3 or fire us?" I'd glady take a different game than Doom, with Steed working on it, than Doom remade without Steed anyday. Not to say I oppose a new Doom, it sounds awesome, but shit man... Did it have to go down this way? As I read the .plan, all I could do was say "what the fuck" over and over. First Looking Glass, now Id is going down the crapper. Ok, it's not that extreme yet, but everything has a first step. And what about the new pack? Did they just decide they didn't need him for that? Was his work done? How can they replace him? It won't be the same man, it just can't. Can anyone think of anything , short of boycott to get him back?
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
-Henrik Ib
Check the Blues News archives from the past few days, Zoid. Someone just made a program that would allow Doom DM to run in a client/server manner. :)
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
-Henrik Ib
To quote:
....
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
It's kind of right there that he did stand up and fight for him. Although John would have left over not being able to make Doom3, he wouldn't, and shouldn't leave, go on strike, or anything that drastic over Steed. I hate to see Steed go. He'd be able to do amazing things with a new engine. He's done amazing things in the past. But don't diss JohnnyC for not doing something he did. He couldn't really do anything. The men who control the company, well, cotrol the company. It's as simple as that. And remember, almost *all* of them were willing to be fired. If they made it out with only one casualty(sp?), that's worth it. I still wish we could somehow get Sted back though
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
-Henrik Ib
His firing hurts so much more because, as I was reading the .plan, I was installing Q3A in the background....
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
"You should never have your best trousers on when you turn out to fight for freedom and truth."
-Henrik Ib
Okay. Seriously. I _loved_ Q3, and UT... I was just as hooked on those as anyone else, believe me.
;-)
My request to Mr. C, and the whole ID team, is to _please_ do not make Doom 3 a deathmatch only game like Q3 and UT. It kind of feels like a ripoff to have to pay ~40-50 bucks for what, to me, is only 1/2 of a game.
Whatever happened to the games that had multiplayer as an extra feature, but concentrated on the plot? Remember Heretic, Hexen, etc... Hell, even Half Life had an awesome plot, as well as Opposing Force.
Before I start to receive all the flames, yes, I know Q3 and UT both have singleplayer mode, but it's just deathmatch vs. bots, and there's not a plot, or levels to clear, or a final boss, or a princess to save
-M
Sure, I have a thankless job. That's okay. I have a lot of (non
I mean, they could all go work on getting a worthwhile Daikatana out the door.
t
I too expect a big implosion. Look at the fallout from the termoil at Ion Storm. Even the termoil at Blizzard and Cedant have caused Diablo 2 to be two years late and not as impressive. Id already lost their #2 programmer earlier to work on an Everquest sequel. I would imagine Doom III will come out years late and uninspired.
He promised some lovely shades of yellow and maybe even some washed out red and blue. Look for an overall theme of brown though.
there wouldn't be a chance of a zoid map-pack?
Timothy J. Agen -- The University of Minnesota, Morris
one reason for low poly chars in the dark engine games was because of the other computing happening. LGS gave AI and the such a bigger chunk of the available computer power. That is why their games were special.
Timothy J. Agen -- The University of Minnesota, Morris
no biggie. most modern games have dynamic sndtrks. i remember that it was one of Unreal's selling points. Even Baldur's Gate had a dynamic sndtrk.
in regards to the simple quality of the sndtrk, i think that there is a very noticable switch back to mood music of doom and quake (quake 1). Note the music of thief(2), and soldier of fortune.. no techno there. ya dig?
Timothy J. Agen -- The University of Minnesota, Morris
In the UK an employer must follow legal dissmisal proccedures that designed to ensure fairness in the workplace. These proccedures where not followed. This permited me to sue for unlawfull dismissal. I also sued for wrongfull selection. What that means is that under the ussumption that the company did nead to cut staff that I was better qualified than those retained.
This kind of dispute is normally settled in whats known as an Industrial Tribunal, but it didn't get that far. The case was so clear cut that it was settled out of court.
PS Look at my user info ... :)
Thad
Thad
Mental note to self: No job security in America.
Thad
Thad
I realize that everyone reading this story gets a hardon when you say the word "Doom" and so I can kiss karma goodbye
/. karma.
Take your [incorrect] generalizations somewhere else. There is a part of this story that involves someone being fired which I found interesting, even though I couldn't care less about Doom. And commenting about losing karma only makes you look like you are trying to protect it. Grow up, there are more important things than
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
You hit the nail square on the head. It's sad when someone participates in the very activity they condemn so vehemently and so often....hope Zico has enough maturity to see when he's wrong.
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
You shouldn't hold back your opinion in fear of "bad /. karma" Say what you are gonna say, and let people flame or praise you for it.
/. karma is going to fall at the bottom of the list almost every time. "So what?" you ask...well, my point here is don't sweat the small stuff. Your property is important, take care of it. Karma is small, don't sweat it....and go back to my first point. Sheesh yourself
By the way, your analogy is poor at best. We could aruge all day about "x is more important than y". These things are on a continuum of importance. But protecting your computer is a lot more important than protecting you karma. In fact, when you look at the big picture,
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
You make statements and twist them! I NEVER said computers (property) was important, YOU DID!. I used your words to further make my point /. karma IS unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but if you want to live in your little world, fine. I'm done wasting my time making statements you twist on me and then fail to grasp....good bye
--------
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
Remember that alot of 17 and 18 year olds today were only 9 or 10 when doom came out and probably weren't allowed to play it at there age. They will look at doom and scratch there heads and wonder what the big deal is.
Oh, I remeber all right, Doom II scared the shit out of me, but I managed to play through the whole game (I had to use cheats on the last two levels though =).
I also remember the first game I ever played on a PC - Commander Keen 6
Mikael Jacobson
Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
LAG is funny when you see someone your about to frag and notice the person can't move or is stuck running in place. Easy frag.
LAG is sad when it's you that's getting fragged because of lag. (shazbot!)
Lag, everyone loves lag. What pisses you off when you cannot run? It's lag, lag, lag. What limits your packets and makes you yell "damn it!" It's lag, lag, lag.
-- to code or not to code
www.doom2000.com has been registered to id for the past 6+ months. Doom III?
http://siokaos.org/
I've played UT online via cable modem on a PC and it works fine... not as good as a LAN but very playable.
Which sniper weapon? The rifle or the instagib?
Given the choice between Q3A and UT, I'll take UT. It's even more polished than Q3A, IMHO.
Looks like they'll become just another game corp. It's time for someone elseto do the innovations now.
You forget that John Carmack is a technological god. He defines the bleeding edge.
Doom III? Come on, give us a break. Isn't the FPS thing done to death by now? Innovate. Just goes to show that no matter how talented the id Software developers are, their talent doesn't make up for originality. These guys are simply running out of steam. Raise your hand if you're sick of running around blasting everything in sight? The FPS game reached a peak with games such as UT and Q3A. We're going into the zone of diminishing returns, if we're not already there. I was really looking forward to something other than another FPS from id, even if it's Doom III. The firing of Paul Steed under these circumstances is just unprofessional and bad practice and certainly reflects poorly on the company as a whole, not only Kevin and Adrian. And you'd think that John Carmack would stand up for Paul Steed, as Steed probably did in forcing id to pursue Doom III. Hook left, then Cash, now Steed too? Looks like id will end up just being another game company if survives the weight of its egos. Let's see more stuff on Epic games and Tim Sweeney... they look like they're up and coming. --e!- ---
-------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------
Unix _is_ user friendly, it's just particular about who its friends
While reading the .plan referenced by this topic, I stumbled on the 3/27/00 entry. If you didn't notice it the first time, you might find it worth your while to go back in and give it a look.
Even better, he needs TWO designers to replace Paul Steed.
since he owns 33.3% of the company.
*** SIGNATURE WANTED. BIG REWARD. It's name is "Bubba"
~
~
:wq
Lets just hope this game doesn't end up being some other brainless monster killing fest like ID are known to make. It would be quite a change to see them make a shooter with some sense of a purpose beyond killing the end boss. Besides, the maket is not what it was when the other dooms came out. Today, ID are far from the unly company making 3D shooter and the most notable inovations are not from the graphic engine department. Just look at how Half Life was talked about. No one cared about the technology in it because it had other aspects that are way more important to what makes a great game these days.
Is there any basis to the supposition that Doom II ripped Pantera off?
--Fesh
--Fesh
Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
Man, that's really really pathetic ;)
On a side note, your sister must be some kind of a natural... I tried teaching my 10 year old cousin how to play, and he could barely move around, let alone actually kill something...
-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.
you have obviously never played DOOM in deathmatch.
It's lightyears better in deathmatch then all the quack games together, single play is a bit tedious too, but that's sine it's so much more to blast your friends in pieces then some semi dumb ai...
We don't know the whole situation here, but I'd surmise that a whole lot of Carmack's plan is targetted towards making the other's look bad, and making steed look like victim here, so he can find another job more easily. Don't overlook the fact that he says Steed has done things worthy of firing in the past, and now that Q3 and the mission packs are done, it's the logical time to let him go anyway, since you don't want to change staff in the middle of a project.
True, very true - however, reguardless if it's just JC blowing off steam, or trying to make is a snap for Paul Steed to got another job, it does reflect very poorly on the work situation at Id (ID, iD - whatever ;-), especially for anyone who's seriously looking at working there.
I'd be happy to work at id, too bad they are only accepting people with talent.
True - and I resemble that ;-) (See .sig for most current game - it definitely wouldn't get my hired at id! ;-)
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
One of the things that somewhat make me chuckle in John's .plan was telling the story of the next Doom game, Paul Steed getting fired (sheesh - iD's loss on that one!), and then... a job offer for two more possisions at iD Software. Yeeks - I'm not real sure after having just read that tale that it's that good of a job offer. Not many people really want to work at a place where you could be fired for no more reason than just pure spite of management being faced down by it's employees. Of course, well, it is that way with quite a few companys... *SIGH*
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
I think Final Doom was just new levels using the Doom II extras (new monsters, guns, etc), only released on consoles (PSX and N64 i think, maybe Saturn). There was also Ultimate Doom, which was Doom #1 with an extra episode. It was pretty good, actually, if you hadn't already bought Doom.
I totally agree. The various "spiky bits" were one of the primary elements that made Doom/Doom II the great games they were. Although what Quake lost in not having all those sprites, it made up in having true 3d and better lighting.
Quake 2 is cool while watching the opening movie (which does btw, kick ass), it makes you think the game has a cool storyline, when in actuality it's the same old thing. But hell, you don't play a first person shooter for the storyline. (unless you're playing Marathon, but that's something else again)
when senior people are criticising other senior people in public you don't have a team any more. Await implosion.
I guess this is what Graeme Divine was hired for. He's the head of the team, it's his job to keep things going smoothly and making sure communication is going and everyone is clear on what they're doing and working together towards some cohesive design goal.
Besides, Carmack is coding, and Adrian and Kevin are doing art. Once they decide on a project, I don't think that they'll butt into each other much. Carmack just puts his head down and codes, I don't think he meddles with many of the art decisions.
-Erik
Definitely a renaissance of gaming titles coming up, with Wolfenstein in the works and now DOOM III it will be interesting to see how the projects come out. I agree though, having DOOM in a Quake setting will not work. The original feel, and fear, of DOOM will have to be rebuilt using the newer technologies without looking like a Half-Life wanna-be.
John Carmack may be an employee, but he is also an owner. As such, his release of internal information is entirely different than if a disgruntled employee had posted such information.
I noticed a few people have mentioned the storyline (comma lack of) in the Doom series. Well whilst that's true for the game, there were 4 books brought out (fanfics if you like) that brought a storyline into Doom. They are by Dafydd Ab Hugh and Brad Linaweaver, and are really good storylines - with the exception of the third book, which IMHO is utterly boring. They even give the main character a name (gasp!) - Flynn "Fly" Taggart. My only complaint is they tried to turn it into a religion-pushing thing - they mention the religious standing of almost every character that ever appears in the series :) You are still left with a gripping story if you ignore all that though. Oh, and there was the useless ending. Huh, useless endings seem to be the 'in' thing at the moment with authors! Maybe with Doom III, they will finally answer the last words "The End...?" with a new book :)
Quake 3 was developed simultaneously for Mac OS, Windows, and Linux. All previous id games were ported by various Mac porting houses. Apparently Apple persuaded JC to develop Quake3 for classic Mac OS in exchange for some advice on their game strategy. In fact, I do believe that Quake 3 was first publicly demoed at the summer MacWorld NY in 98 (or was it the January SF one in 99?). As you mention, Carmack was a big fan of NeXTStep though, and since OS X's Cocoa API's are derived from them, all future id games will run on the Mac using OS X's Cocoa API only. (In fact, he's hinted at switching from NT to OS X as his primary development system... Pretty cool IMHO.)
My English teacher once told me that two positives don't make a negative. Two words for her: Yeah, right.
Looking at your .sig there, I can see that you're a Marathon fan... IMHO, even Marathon walked all over doom in terms of gameplay, I'm somewhat surprised you didn't mention it. I played Marathon first though, that may have spoiled it... :)
My English teacher once told me that two positives don't make a negative. Two words for her: Yeah, right.
Huh? I don't get what you mean at all. They could very easily just use the Q3 engine... there's three games that I can think of off the top of my head that'll use the Q3 engine and be single player (Return to Castle Wolfenstine, Heavy Metal FAKK2, and that Star Trek game), plus I believe there are several community-made single-player games in the works... Probally just a matter of coding a mod correctly. (And level design, of course.)
My English teacher once told me that two positives don't make a negative. Two words for her: Yeah, right.
May I be the first to point out to you that Doom III is going to have an all-new engine using brand-new technology?
It's gonna rock. :)
My English teacher once told me that two positives don't make a negative. Two words for her: Yeah, right.
Anyone here remember the low-poly love doll competition? Challenge: using 1k triangles or less, build a ... um ... female love doll model: an unabashedly sexist objectification. All the entries were anonymous until voting was finished, and voting was on posed models alone - no skins.
Some of the entries (about 60, IIRC) were wretched, and many were from professionals, but Paul Steed's model won with 801 votes, compared with 344 for 2nd place. After reviewing the other entries, his looks all the more amazing. Have any of you ever tried to build a believable wire-frame from scratch? My god, it's hard.
The fact that id fired Steed for (ostensibly) political reasons (or any reason at all other than, say, keying John's F50) does not speak well of them. I know, I know, Kevin and Adrian own the company and they can do whatever the fsck they want; I also know that you need to work with people you like and "personality conflicts" are regularly cited as dismissal reasons.
None of that overshadows the fact that they fired one of the most amazing low-poly modeler/animators in the business. Their future games will suffer for it, and that makes me sad.
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
I have to say, I have just lost a lot of respect for id software now. Firing a talented employee just because he supports an opposing view is not cool. I am surprised that John allowed this to happen. I am sure there is more to this story that what is being said publicly, but it is starting to seem that id software isn't the geek nirvana it was once thought of. *Egos* are a bad thing for a company. Just look at Ion Storm. Jeffrey Paul
Is everyone here aware of what happened at Ion Storm a while back (if you don't remember who Ion Storm is, it was a company founded by Romero after he got kicked from ID)? If not, let me refresh you. A group of people who didn't care about coding, just about being famous and making a lot of money gathered together, borrowed a lot of money, and sat around fighting, kicking each other out, lowering moralle and causing several massive walkouts from employees; their game, Daikatana, kept getting pushed back (over a year and a half from its scheduled release date), and their exxagerations about how good it would be to the company they got the major advances from kept increasing. But, the internal squabbles were the worst i've ever seen.. read about it some time, its a rather interesting story of a corporation gone wrong.
- Rei
Trump's plan to get rid of Mueller appears to be 'be so guilty of so many things that Mueller works himself to death.'
Quick search reveals that it means "If you can read this, you are overeducated" Enjoy!
Right Now, our government is doing things you think only other governments do.
It was slashdotted. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Eh...
Hey, I read it, and my questions were still pretty valid. Smoke it again.
Eh...
And of course, they'll never fire Carmack since whatever company he went to would get all of his fan's loyalty.
Eh...
However, I can't help but get this sinking feeling about id ...
Cage
In the past, id has been strictly a one game at a time development house, unlike several other companies out there (but also like several others).
Anyway, if they could just decide to work more than one game at a time I think some of their internal strife would lessen. Because they have to choose one and only one, you get the infighting that has just been witnessed.
Their "clarity of focus" may get watered down, but their talent level wouldn't. Plus, we as consumers would get potentially more great games at the price of potentially longer development times.
Praying for the end of your wide-awake nightmare.
They are't rogue employees, I belive both Adrian and Kevin were co-founders of id (correct me if I'm wrong about that) with John Carmack and John Romero.
Adrian yes, but Kevin came later. The original guys from Softdisk were J. Carmack, A. Carmack, Tom Hall, and John Romero.
Segfault
segfault@bellatlantic.net
Since everything is slashdotted right now, here's Carmack's plan update:
- ----------------------------- .plan update.
- -----------------------------
Welcome to id Software's Finger Service V1.5!
Name: John Carmack
Email: johnc@idsoftware.com
Description: Programmer
Project: Quake 3 Arena
Last Updated: 06/01/2000 02:51:45 (Central Standard Time)
-------------------------------------------------
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan, the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company): We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed, new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
-------------------------------------------------
There you have it.
Segfault
segfault@bellatlantic.net
But I can also honestly say that Doom doesn't hold a candle to games available in today's market. Half-Life, Quake3 and Unreal Tournament pretty much walk all over it in terms of gameplay (it would be unfair to compare graphics).
Considering, in addition, that id Software's last single player game (Quake 2) had such a poorly developed game, I don't have much expectations for a new Doom game, unless they invite someone in to design the game's single player content.
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
***JUMP PAD ACTIVATION INITIATION START***
***TRANSPORT WHEN READY***
It's hard to say which is more sad, infighting at Id or another FPS from Id.
and it sounds like they've been hanging around with the likes of Lars Ulrich too!
Carmack and Steed are Game GODS! Firing Steed over a developmental arguement is petty at best.
[Connection closed by foreign host]
I always though the neto-o polygon graphics were worse than the bit maps. Polygons may work fine for angular things like robots but when your trying to do curvies like humans they still come out jaggy. And then theres all the reduction in polygon counts which justs ups the jaggyness. The next big push in gaming is overcoming the jaggy problem.
At the end of the .plan file his sig says:
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
what does that mean? I'm kinda curious.......
Why win9x really sucks
I kinda disagree that the fact that a new version of Doom being released is more important than Paul Steed, or anyone for that matter, being fired just out of what is supposedly spite or retaliation. Just my $.02. *shrugs*
"fire walk with me"
"2 points for honesty, it must make you sad to know, nobody cares at all.." -Guster
"Design is law"-- John Romero
Bad troll. No biscuit!
I'd like to know how exactly you got your hands on the Doom source in December 1993, considering that they didn't release it publicly until December 1998.
People seem to forget that, behind closed doors, things are always a bit more involved than they seem from the outside.
No gaming company out there is the utopia you may think it ought to be. Every company has people, and where there are people there are politics and differences and power struggles and egos. id Software is no exception. Don't fool yourself into thinking things are simple, or that you always have The Big Picture; there's always a lot more going on under the covers than what's apparent on the surface.
People get fired for good reasons, for bad reasons, and (most of the time) for a bit of both. I doubt Steed's case was any different.
-sq
>> BTW, who are you?
>Diamond Dave Taylor. Currently of Transmeta,
>Formerly ID [Doom era] and Crack.com [Abuse].
>
>When you did the map cheat in doom, and typed
>IDDT, it stood for iD Dave Taylor.
Aha! He's a cheater, eh?
*G*
--
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
First off, I would have to say that firing key people in a company is no way to embark on a major project, especially one that involves older projects in the company. Second, the .plan is slashdotted, but from what I can tell from this story, it looks like id is definitely not a good company to start working for now. Looks like they'll become just another game corp. It's time for someone elseto do the innovations now.
It's good that we're getting Doom 3. I've been dreaming of this one for a long time. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the best of circumstances to do it under. The basics are, Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud, who between them own a majority in id, didn't want to do it. Everybody else did. So in order to get it done, they threatened to quit, including John Carmack, without whom, id simply wouldn't be id. Doom 3 is getting made, but in response, Paul Steed got fired. This cannot end pleasantly. Period. If it's come to firing employees out of spite, the conflict'll never die down enough to get actual work done. I see Adrian and/or Kevin selling off their stake in id to John Carmack or somebody else, and leaving. You don't want people working on a game they didn't want to make. It's hard enough to make a quality game when the drive *IS* there. The fact that politics involving the product are this thick so soon, simply spells doom (no pun intended) for the project already. Paul Steed's modeling skills IMHO were a large part of Quake 3, and suddenly id's out a major asset. John Carmack can not make Doom 3 by himself, no matter how outstanding an engine he writes. Do we really want id Software to make another Doom game? The original pushed the envelope of technology, and went somewhere only id had gone before. But times have changed, and the expectations of Doom 3 are ones they might not be able to meet. Would Doom have been as outstanding had it not been a groundbreaker of technology? Can id make a single-player game that'd be as good as Half-Life or System Shock 2? Check the credits for the original Doom. Compare that to who's at id now. The original Doom was written by friends, people who shared a common vision, wanted to see it get done. They played AD&D together in their spare time. This isn't the same people making Doom 3, this is a split company, with agendas being pushed, and major players already telling their tale to the public. In their credit, I'm certain id doesn't hire no-skill jobbers to fill their positions. You don't make games like Doom and Quake consistently without making sure you have the damned best talent you can have. John Carmack's firm grasp of knowing what technology can and cannot do has helped keep them steady, something John Romero learned the hard way. Other people at id also have incredible talent, but we simply don't hear about them because they're not "The Coder" or whatnot. This is all speculation though. I don't work at id, none of us do, and this is based on one man's .plan update, viewed from the context of a paranoid, over-analytical geek (me). So far as I know, politics are always this bad, with this much infighting, but we simply never hear about it. Remember, I'm ignorant of the matter at large, and speculation is 99% to amuse myself.
It's been my experience that the age old excuse of 'not fitting into (insert company name) corporate environment' as reasons for dismissals or departures is more a matter of management looking for a scapegoat when something goes wrong. Who's the first to go? The person who middle management liked the least--competent or not.
I'll agree with others here; airing corporate dirty laundry in public can often kill a company. Employee bitching isn't good for business. That said though, I think it's fair to clear the air if someone's let go unreasonably. When I left my last company I made bloody sure the people I knew in the industry knew that I wasn't fired or let go for any reason other than the company sucked, and was on it's way into bankruptcy. Those of us who have reputations we'd like to keep unsullied need to watch out for that reputation. That's far more important that the company we last worked for, or the reason's we were dismissed.
BOL Steed!
Beware the Whyte Wolf...
Beware the White Wolf...
Off through the new day's mist I run
Beware the Whyte Wolf.
With a gun barrel between your teeth, you speak only in vowels...
I can't wait for it. Id is, in my opinion, one of the best game companies out there. I can't wait to see what they will do with doom! Perhaps I will experience that complete awe as I did when the original doom was shown in all its glory on my computer screen.
You're nothing; like me.
With FPS, there are just two variables -- plot and graphics, and nobody seems to concerned with the former. King and Ferrari have several more variables to consider...
--
--
fat lenny's gonna lick your brain today.
>Did anyone actually even pay attention to the storyline for Quake? Just wondering...
Funny thing was, it wasn't until I got to the end and defeated the final boss-creature that I started to scratch my head wondering what this was all about.
For me, single player was just something to do when I wasn't deathmatching. I know someone will probably flame me saying that deathmatch is stupid because it is just running around mindlessly killing everyone else. Others will flame back saying single player is just running linearly through mazes, killing monsters in your way, and collecting keys to open doors.
Personally, it's about whatever holds your interest. I like a good single-player game with an interesting plot like half-life or Jedi Knight as much as a fast-paced DM-style game of Q3A or UT. Sue me.
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Hmmm I think it is that he should be respected for his actions regarding the Mac OS.
s html
For the work id was doing, the Mac was substandard. The OpenGL and a host of other subsystems were poor, and lets face it most of the FPS developers were either not developing for the Mac or worse were just giving the Mac user base second had castoff ports. John called it like it was. Then he was given a look at OS X and he had a change of heart.
OS X was what made a difference in his opinion. Why you ask? Simple it addressed his numerous previously stated problems with the Apple platform. Everything from hardware, OS fundamentals and the portability issues. The platform changed and his views changed. In the interim Apple made some changes as well.
If we all took stances like yours, no other non mainstream OS's would get support. As for "good reason for his change of heart" one needs only to look.
http://www.maccentral.com/news/0005/23.osxgame.
docGui
Even better -- Quake (or at least Q1) (as well as Doom, now that I think of it) is open-source. Carmack's got them coming and going -- if they lose him, not only do they shoot themselves in the foot, Quake forks.
And then, we find out if trademarks still matter in the Open Source world.
/Brian
And the thing was that when PPC came down the pike, all of us Mac junkies (or ex-Mac junkies as the case may be; I still like Macs alot but I'm a Linux loyalist these days) were saying, "Cool! Decent game hardware!"
It was; the hardware was never the problem, and a lot of game developers were going to sign on pretty early. But nothing ever really came of it until well after the advent of the iMac because a) Copland crashed and burned when Apple engineers couldn't quite figure out when to stop adding things (and a bloody shame too; I rather wish Apple would release the source code for posterity because what I saw of Copland was pretty damn cool) and b) Apple *almost* crashed and burned under the listless leadership of Michael Spindler cost them their first shot at a unified MacOS/Unix system (the long-forgotten failed Sun merger).
To be honest, I don't really blame John Carmack for being anti-Mac. To this day the MacOS is best thought of as a cluttered attic -- it may in fact be organized, but it's not the best situation and it's long past time to junk it and rebuild from scratch. That's Rhapsody and Carbon.
/Brian
"Return to Wolfenstein" is already under developement by Gray Matter Studios (Ex Xatrix, developers of King Pin). Their homepage is empty but you can find screenshots here
.plan is that Carmack is basically starting a fight with the other two owners of id. That cant be good - can it?
What bothers me about the
--
Hank! White!
More important than the fact that doom was IPX (though I seem to recall something about a dos TCP/IP stack?) is that doom used broadcast traffic, so even in a switched environment (rarer in those days) everyone got every packet that anyone playing network doom sent out. Anyway, that got fixed later.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
First of all, I don't recall seeing anything saying that there would be no network play. Incidentally, if a FPS doesn't have network play, I'm not interested. Count me out. Period.
Also, if id comes out with yet another game with no co-op mode that ships with it, I'm going to stop buying id games. Not that I bought Q3 Arena, because (though I risk starting Yet Another Holy War) I think that while the gameplay is good, there is absolutely zero depth to the game. I mean, sure the networking code is tight, but the weapons are now boring and the graphics are, as well.
In any case, deathmatching is here to stay, single player is still dramatically important, and any FPS needs both elements. If they use the Q3A engine to do a worthwhile Doom3, then the result will be a beautiful game (with lousy fog, though) which has amazingly fast and clean networking with few latency problems.
Additional sidenote: Quakeworld had the best networking, ever. :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Amusingly the game is now also present on Game Boy and Amiga, at least.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I think it's more embarrassing to get your ass kicked at Tekken 3 while using Eddy and your Girlfriend is using Nina, but it's pretty cool to take a civic three door and beat her when she's using an NSX in GT2.
What this subthread has to do with Doom3 I don't know, but what the heck, I'm on the off-topic topic.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Wasn't "Final Doom" just a regurgitated Doom II? I actually thought it was just Doom II with a "cooler" name for the videogame consoles. But, maybe it was just Doom II with some extra features -- either way, at first glance it looked just like Doom II to me...
add 5 years of updated tech and you still got.... brown. 30 bits of brown and 2 bits of red.
It's called 'Doing what you do well'. id makes great FPS games.
Stephen King writes horror.
Ferrari builds fast cars.
id makes First Person Shooters.
I dont see a problem here.
D
The first, last, and only tech news site on the net
I guess Dave's our first candidate to someday write "iD: behind closed doors" (or "True confessions of an iD software developer" or maybe some clever title involving "iD" and "ego", or whatever).
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Actually, there is a 3DS that has fatigue for carrying your weapons. Soldier Of Fortune has this as an option for multi-player. My friends and I tried it out, and if you've got say, a rocket launcher, you can't make it accross a room without slowing to a crawl. At first we thought it was pretty cool...but after about 20 minutes of playing while wondering if you should be running or walking with that shotgun and body armer, we decided to go back to just run all the time. The other nice option is realistic damage, which means if you get shot in the head, you die...armor or no. Anyway, I had a point...yes, the realism can be somewhat fun, but really the most fun (IMHO) comes from running around with a lot of guns killing as many people as possible until you can't straighten your fingers.
Karma: Non-existant. Due mostly to the fact that you smell funny and nobody likes you.
>>> I guess I agree that Doom didn't have much story, but how can you say that Doom's only strongpoint was technology? >> DOOM could have been made by any of a dozen developers at that time. Oh really! Like who? Oh wait, you didn't say that, did you! -- see what it's like to have a completely idiot misquote you. You don't like it when the table turns. ;-) Scott
It's funny to think that Kevin and Adrian would fire John Carmack, because that would be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Id wouldn't be id without John. Id and Carmack are one and the same, and if John is fired and starts a new game developer, then that might as well be called New-id, and the original id would be better called id-iots for firing their leader, visionary and easy ticket to continued success. Having known John since he entered the industry (I got id started, in fact), I know first-hand the real and only reason behind id's success, and his name is John. All others there are replaceable, as has been proven time and time again. -- Scott Miller
One of the main (and IMHO, the best) features of DOOM and DOOM2 were the sheer number of monsters you had to fight. Walk into a room, you'd be likely to find anywhere from 5 to a few dozen baddies, with about 45 health and 12 shotgun shells. Uh, can you say, Run? ;)
Today, however, with the emphasis on higher-quality graphics, it's tough to pack that many objects in one place without seeing a performance hit. The result is fewer monsters who simply have more hit points and guns (Half-Life), or worse yet, no monsters at all (Quake3, Unreal Tournament).
Don't get me wrong, Half-Life and Q3 are great games, but their gameplay emphasis is on limited-number encounters and multiplayer, respectively. Here's hoping Doom3 can bring us back to the glory days of mowing down legions of Imps with reckless abandon. Between this and the new Wolfenstien coming out, it's starting to pay to be an old-school gamer!
. I want a NEW GAME. I don't want to play the SAME GAME except for the requirement of a NEW VIDEO CARD.
Then go buy Alpha Centauri or The Sims.
id does one thing very well: produce First Person Shooters. It can be argued that others are now doing it better (Valve, whoever makes Unreal), but it's undeniable that id still produces quality FPS's.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with sticking to one genre of games. Microprose used to dominate the turn-based strategy field with games like X-Com and Master of Orion. EA is the undisputed king of sports games. You want variety, buy from someone else. But don't demand that a game company produce something different simply for the sake of being different.
When I get in a programming mode
Compile and run
It is so much fun
"If I were to ask you a hypothetical question, what would you like it to be about?"
I think it'd be cool if they made this DOOM remake compatible with the original doom---that way you could play network games with doom players on 486's as well as doom players on P3 600mHz systems with heafty 3D acceleration. . . :)
Now, when're they going to make a 3D version of Commander Keen---that's what I'd like to know. :)
When I get in a programming mode
Compile and run
It is so much fun
"If I were to ask you a hypothetical question, what would you like it to be about?"
When I get in a programming mode
Compile and run
It is so much fun
"If I were to ask you a hypothetical question, what would you like it to be about?"
I'm sure people like him and Jon Katz think that it's "cool," in that trite I-wanna-be-a-rebel way, when a subordinate makes ultimata to the people running the show, but it's really not amusing in the least. Oh well, maybe his pals in the unemployment line will enjoy the tales of his tough-guy antics.
Well, as I understand it, John Carmack was a founder of id with (I believe) Adrian Carmack, John Romero and Kevin Cloud. John Carmack owns a large chunk of the company, as well as being the main developer of the engines which make id's games run. I believe that would imply that he, as well as Kevin and Adrian, "runs the show" and is not just a "subordinate". So if John Carmack wants to make a demand, such as "we will make Doom 3 or I will leave the company", then it seems like that's within his rights. It also seems like it was successful, seeing that they are making Doom 3. And I doubt he (or Paul Steed, for that matter) will be on any unemployment lines soon. Forgoing the fact that he is a multimillionaire, he is also one of the world's most famous and accomplished programmers. (And I'm sure Steed will have a high-paying job within days, or start his own company.)
Josh Sisk
Question: Can DooM 3 even live up to the hype? I mean, let's face it - DooM and DooM 2 were some of the best games ever created. I just hope this doesn't turn into some sort of Phantom Menace thing...
Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
Good record. The only criticism I could try (and probably fail) to level would be that if the market for new and original games was made up of people with similar lists, it doesn't sound like there would be much money in that market. Of course, there are a host of reasons why that's very unconvincing line of reasoning...
:-)
(BTW - I whimiscally chose to take your post as a challenge, I'm not at all suggesting that you have no one else to blame
I might lose karma for this, but when wondering who is responsible, please take a long, honest look in the mirror. Developers often find that what gamers say they want, and what they _actually_ enjoy (and purchase) when they're offered it are different things. You may be blameless (though I'm not), perhaps you do search for games that are breaking the mould, purchase "indie" games, and so on, but even so, let me paint some of the other side of the picture.
I was involved in the development of a 3d game that introduced some new stuff. Took it to E3, and was horrified by the nature of some of the feedback coming from gamers - the controls were not quite like Quake (which tends to happen when you're not making a Quake clone - the game was different and desired some differences in control), and this was a terminal shortfall for a significant number of gamers. It wasn't just the controls either.
With so many games to choose from, a _lot_ of gamers will not take the time to learn a "new" game, and this is understandable - why risk spending two hours learning new concepts, or working through some tutorials, or learning a new approach to X, Y, and Z, only to discover that the game isn't your cup of tea anyway? Quicker, safer, and easier to get something you _know_ you'll like - even if it isn't quite the revolutionary game you hope to play someday, it is an even better version of something you know and love.
Thus many (myself included) choose games that they already know how to play, but also want something "new", not realising that there is a serious conflict here. The result? Games are made with as much "new" stuff as is possible before a learning curve appears. Cooler graphics, new monsters and weapons, jump pads, and so on.
Games that are as "New" as gamers will let them be are out there. Find them (don't expect them to come to you) and support them. See if the registration card is soley for marketing purposes, or whether there are some questions that give info to developers (eg your hardware specs, game preferences, and so on). If so, fill it out and have your say - since no-one actually fills out their registration cards, you'll be speaking with disproportionate influence.
Make a commitment to give games a fair go - it's easy to look at a game and think "What a load of sh-t. Who designed this crap?", but think also "People poured blood, sweat, and tears into this thing for two years of their life - perhaps I haven't clicked on to what they were trying to do?". Some games _are_ crap, but some only look like crap because you stereotype them as "just another X-style game" when a lot of the work went into the non-X-style aspects, and that's where the game really shines - if only you would take the time to learn it and discover this.
Spread the word - gamers can be an unnecessary extra obstacle to "new" games, and if we want new stuff, the least we can do is make sure we're not part of the problem. I think most gamers are completely unaware that they could pose an obstacle to "new" stuff because they support the idea of "new" stuff, but don't connect their actions with the impact it has on "new" stuff.
I'm not saying it's all our fault, I'm saying that one of the biggest problems is one that _we_ can address. We have the power. The price is convenience.
>Every company has fights, but when senior people are criticising other senior people in public you don't have a team any more.
>Await implosion.
I put $10 on whichever side Carmack happens to be.
>And commenting about losing karma only makes you look like you are trying to protect it. Grow up, there are more important /. karma.
>things than
There are more important things than my computer, but I don't think it immature to take steps to prevent its loss. Sheesh, if someone wants to protect their karma so much that they'll even contemplate the enormous effort of adding some words to their post (oh the sacrifice!) in the hopes of achieving this, what's the big deal?
So Carmack describes how Kevin fires a programmer out of spite because he lost an argument/power play and then in the next bloody paragraph he says please send resumes to Kevin. What kind of dumb fuck shit is that? "our boss is an egotistical fuck. if you too want to work for him, send your resume."
I wish Paul was still with Id, I'd love to see his models for Doom III.
Everything in this post is false.
My impression is that johnc was not the driving force behind the Doom Rebellion. From reading his plan, I get the feeling that he was simply the only co-owner that happened to favor Doom 3. JC simply happened to realize that "hey, we can make a proper 3D engine that can render the DooM atmosphere, and it'll be cooler than using it for " In light of the fact that basically everybody else wanted to do Doom 3, he was willing to throw his support behind it. I've always felt that JC has only a passing interest in game design. The game design simply showcases his engines. I don't think that Carmack was one of the "Doom or bust" people. If you closely read his plan file, he doesn't say "I issued an ultimatum..." but rather "an ultimatum was issued." To me, it looks like the Doom Rebellion was led by the designers and artists, not by JC, who merely happened to think they had the right idea.
I love the company and their games, but do they have some kind of gamers block? It's bad enough that they release a SDK for Quake III but don't support it, because the "community" of Quake fans will figure it out. Well, that's crap.
Why can't they learn from Unreal Turnament? Create new game types, support your community and actively seek out new amateur developers. Quake III Arena had a definite air of a rushed project. They seem to think that slapping the id logo on something makes it an instant hit, they can always put in the missing pieces with a mission pack.
id defined the FPS genre. They are some of the most creative programmers and artists in the game industry. Show some of that creativity and make something NEW instead of just putting prettier pictures on the same old concepts.
Yeah, I caught the Puppets thing. I also heard E2M1 - AC/DC..
I thought that Doom (and other 2D FPS, like Duke 3D and Hexen) had a better atmosphere, too. In fact I believe the reason that it had a better atmosphere is because of a graphics limitation of the newer, polygonal FPS.
Do you remember in Doom all of the little bitmap objects that you ran across in the game that didn't have anything to do with the game itself, but that were part of the location you were in? There were things like the impaled marines, torches, candles, extraneous body parts, trees, bones, corpses, statues and etc. In Doom, you could fill a scene with little stuff like that without slowing the game down too much, but in Quake objects like these might added a non-trivial number of polygons to a scene, which hurt performance.
I'll admit that there are scenes in the newer games which have these little objects, but usually you won't find a scene with more than two or three of them. The end result for the polygonal FPS is a bunch of map locations with a bit of an empty feel to them.
Of course, Doom had other factors going for it. It had a coherent story line and a cool enemy (the Legions of Hell), which allowed for a lot of atmospheric creativity.
-----
Obviousness is always the enemy of correctness. -- Bertrand Russell
If you can't, then you will just have to find some guys in the Mafia to help solve your problems. I can already hear the thick Italian accents... {=
When the pack animals stampede, it's time to soak the ground with blood to save the world. We fight, we die, we break our cursed bonds.
Chris 'coldacid' Charabaruk Meldstar Entertainment
How many other doomsters had trouble completing the final screen on Doom II (without cheating)? I bet I was one of the first in the world, but I have no evidence of this.
Now wouldn't that be nice.... if they returned to their roots, released DOOM III as shareware, with at least one third of the game available for download...
*sigh*
Those were the days.
I think the thing about Doom that kept me on the edge of my seat was the storyline. A sci-fi story that leads (literally) straight to Hell is just awesome.
Did anyone actually even pay attention to the storyline for Quake? Just wondering...
This news is sweet. I can't wait to see the results. I hope the infighting doesn't harm production though.
rusty haskell,
/mnt/c/windows
Code Ninja, Java Assassin, Linux Newbie
fuzzcat@yahoo.com
Nine Finger Monarchy
[root@SavageGarden] root# rm -r
"The further I get from the things that I care about, the less I care about how much further away I get." -Robert Smith
Since blue's .plan service seems to be slashdotted, why don't you guys go slashdot www.stomped.com's .plan service instead... ;)
There are two types of dirt: One dark kind that sticks to light objects and one light kind that sticks to dark objec
Trinity was never a project, it was John Carmacks name for his reseach, taken from Intels (I think) way of naming their current reseach after a nearby river.
Yeah, I noticed that too. The music for e1m1 of the original Doom was a modified version of the main riff from Metallica's Master of Puppets, and the music from the DoomII level "Monster Condo" (level 27) is from Pantera's This Love.. quite cool if you ask me. :)
Oh, and you can hear some of these over at Bobby Prince's web page here
-subtraho
I stated that I played it again last August. Unless I'm stuck in a time warp, that wasn't my first time playing.
-subtraho
I would'nt worry about JC raisin a lil kain. If you think about it where would ID be if JC left the company? Maybe it's a good thing that he's standing up. Becuse you know there is no way that they would think of "letting him go as a programer". Plus he's 50% owner. And as far as steed goes I'm not to sure of the details as to why he was let go. But I'm sure that it's more then we will ever know....
if ($name eq "Mike"); {
print "laters, Mike";
}else{
if ($name eq "Mike"); {
print "laters, Mike";
}else{
print "who are you and how did you get in her
How about Doom for the Java Platform ?
Cedric Balthazar Rotherwood
Sun Certified Programmer for the Java Platform +
System Admin. for Solaris
Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I happen to think that majority stock holders should be able to decide what a company does and doesn't do. id is no exception, no matter how cool a new DOOM sounds like -- after all, we can't be sure what the other development alternatives are.
Perhaps. And maybe they should fire JC for bucking the system. But the laws do protect minority share-holders as well. So, not only are you old-fashioned, but you are legally on thin ice with such a broad assertion: a company has a legal obligation to look after stock value, even if the majority share-holders want to take a hit on stock value to maintain control; selling shares under any other pretence would amount to fraud. To protect value of shares held by all share-holders, you have to please customers. If /. wants to apply pressure, maybe id should listen. I'm sure I'm old-fashioned, but dealing with potentially critical consumer views in a way that doesn't defraud minority shareholders sounds like a free and fair market to me.
This seems to be a good and bad thing.
good: id has long been a fantastic technology company, but for several games now has been criticised for lack of quality content. I think they brought this around a bit with Q3A, but it does seem now that they are actually going after *good games* as well has good-looking ones. Doom was great, and scary, and I can't wait to see an Arch-vile again after all these years...
bad: From an outsider's point of view, it does seem that Paul Steed was instrumental in adding atmosphere to the games that id made. Plus political infighting does not bode well for the future of one of the most important pc game houses around.
Of course, this is all based on John Carmack's plan update, and so it'll take a while for the whole story to emerge, if it ever does. But I look forward to what iD do next - the question is whether they'll stay a cohesive unit long enough to do it.
Gingko
i don't do sigs. oops.
I personally bought this CD and it rocks. :o)
-X
Yeah, that was map 23. Of course, Mr. Prince shortened the chorus.
Wasn't it IPX/SPX or something un-TCP/IP like.
Their code is obviously a bit more scalable now. Modem play could transfer 15MB each way on my 56K under Q2 in a couple of hours. Playing on the LAN probably a lot more. We used to have up to 12 of use playing Q2 at the end of the day at work over 100Mbs ethernet. It did cause slow-downs, but our sub-net was isolated from the rest of the company, so that was no big deal really.
Except it WAS "iD".
Carmack did have no respect for the MacOS. Rightly. But what you've forgotten is Carmack's legendary woody for NEXTSTEP. Doom was, in fact, developed on NEXTSTEP (I run it all the time on my NeXTStation TurboColor), and he has repeatedly and enthusiastically plugged its development model.
JC's renewed enthusiasm for Apple is easy to understand, now that Jobs and the NeXT crew are running Apple, and OS X is basically NEXTSTEP 5.x
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
Hey, lots of cool games involve running through tunnels killing things...
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
Commander Keen was cool...neato side scroller, nifty little alien buggers...
Check the Blues News archives from the past few days, Zoid. Someone just made a program that would allow Doom DM to run in a client/server manner. :)
That's pretty cool. It's still rather far from the same experience. No player prediction and its still got a log of bugs.
I was also meaning the mulitplayer experience with the new DOOM game would be great. Adding a server based multiplayer to old DOOM is cool and all, but I drool at playing a new DOOM with a new Carmack enhanced engine over the 'net.
/// Zoid.
there wouldn't be a chance of a zoid map-pack?
:)
No promises.
/// Zoid.
I hope they don't use the original networking code from DOOM. I saw a game where the LAN went down because too many people were firing chain guns. :)
Hopefully this won't be a stupid Q3A type thing. Single player mode is also quite a bit of fun, plus it gives those of us with slow connections something to do between lan parties.
I saw Paul Steed do a talk on modeling at a Quake-con a while back. He really knows his stuff... I can't wait to see who is lucky enough to get him next!
Apple is no more getting rid of MacOS than Microsoft is getting rid of windows9x. They're keeping the best parts and replacing the worst parts to make MacOS X.(Why not call it Mac OS 10 if we're supposed to pronounce it that way?)
Steve was the boss at NeXT when he was ousted from Apple.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Carmack's change of heart came within months after Apple scrapped Copeland and announced Rhapsody. Everyone was expecting Apple to snap up Be and incorporate BeOS into the MacOS, but instead they grabbed NeXT. Within a year Rhapsody (later to become MacOS X) was announced. Shortly thereafter is when Carmack changed his mind.
What do I care anyway? I'm done buying id games anyway. DeathMatch Du Jour with nothing new but spiffed up graphics isn't groundreaking or even noteworthy.
Quake like type games are more innovative than the originals. Half-Life for example was far more original than Q2 or Q3. Carmack and id are just living off of the hype from previous successes.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
The MacOS is not a fixed entity. System 1 that shipped back in 1984 is completely unrecognizeable compared to MacOS 9.0.4, there is a process by which it has evolved. The MacOS is, by definition, the OS that Apple makes for Macs.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Win 9x has no preemptive multitasking. Win 9x has no protected memory. Where was Carmack's lack of respect there?
Want to lock up a Win 95 box tight?
#include
main(){
here: goto here;
return 0;}
The task scheduler will choke die if you run a program that wants only CPU and no memory or disk access.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I lost all respect for him long ago. I remember once he said that he had "No respect for the MacOS" and that he wouldn't do any development for that platform. Yet after a few minutes with Steve Jobs he's all gung ho apple.
Although I was disappointed because at the time I was an apple enthusiast. I would have had more respect for Carmack if he had either stuck to his guns or given a good reason for his change of heart.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I'm curious what Emmett's idea of a "cool" way of running a business is. Seeing as Slashdot/VA_Linux is losing money hand-over-fist, I really don't think he's qualified. I'm sure people like him and Jon Katz think that it's "cool," in that trite I-wanna-be-a-rebel way, when a subordinate makes ultimata to the people running the show, but it's really not amusing in the least. Oh well, maybe his pals in the unemployment line will enjoy the tales of his tough-guy antics.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Kinda blows the point. I play games because they are games. If I want realism, I run around the block carrying bricks until I get tired and pass out.
Linux O Muerte!
IIRC wasn't the music done by Bobby Prince, didn't he sell a CD with the Doom music played on a high end Roland synth? I have MIDI recordings of the Doom and Descent soundtracks, they rock on my GUS. Music really can make a game, I look forward to what they create. BTW: What ever happended to the Wolfenstein 2000 project?
-- Remember: Wherever you go, there you are!
Doom is still one of the best FPS's around, both in single and multiplayer mode. The sounds are just amazing, Doom is the only game where the music and monster sounds have ever scared me. Sure, the graphics are bit dated, but engines like glDoom and Doom3D, it doesn't look bad at all. I still play Doom occasionally and let me tell you: the game is just as good now as it was five years ago.
http://finger.planetqu ake.com/plan.asp?userid=johnc&id=14425
From a technical standpoint, MacOS is all but dead. The only remnant is the compatibility layer, Blue Box or whatever it's called, to allow the older Mac software to run under MacOS X.
The UI has changed; refined, reworked, upgraded, facelifted, whatever. It's not the MacOS anymore, any more or less than Windows98 is MacOS
The OS/kernal/core/system itself is different. Mach Kernel with BSD atop that, with NeXTisms atop that. Nothing in common with the traditional MacOS.
So the analogy with M$ is Apple is getting rid of MacOS to make MacOS X in the same way that M$ got rid of Windows9x to make WindowsNT or WindowsCE. There are compatibility layers for both, but it's underlying OS is non compatibile and unsimilar.
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
So(prolly cuz I'm browsing high level and all ^^) I'm not seeing any comments on what would make DoomIII rock...
Lots of monsters on screen at once!
Monsters that don't get along...
Monsters that do get along...
Real time lighting and shadow. Seeing monsters moving in the darkness
Better directional sound! Immersion here!
Squadron tactics. Wiping out of demons as a team!
Voice over Network... JC always talks about it, lets hear it for real!
Of course we need tactically useful music...
Gadgets: Cloaking suits, night vision goggles, holographic decoys, etc.
Anything else?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
I always thought John had *control* of id, now it's obvious that he does not.
He controls the technology side, but there's a lot more to producing a game than making great engines.
If two rogue employees hold more than 50%
They are't rogue employees, I belive both Adrian and Kevin were co-founders of id (correct me if I'm wrong about that) with John Carmack and John Romero.
What's next, Carmack is fired because he wants to use reflective light sources that Kevin and Adrian are totally against?
Carmack has the last word on anything having to do with engine technology. Kevin (I belive) does the art for the games and Adrian is more on the business side (again, correct me if I'm wrong.)
Romero did a lot on game design, which IMHO is why the atmosphere of Doom and Quake kicked ass while the atmosphere of Quake 3 and especially Quake 2 blows nuts.....
Deathmatch is simply old and boring now and co-op is where it's at, at least for me and my friends when we do LAN parties.
Good for you, but I don't expect them to spend a lot of time on it because multiplayer is where its really at for most gammers. Get tired of deathmatch, try CTF or team fortress or one of the zillions of mods comming out for Quake 3, along with all the ones available for Quakes 1 and 2.
Not suprisingly, many of you guys are hoping that DOOM 3 will stay true to the original and not just be Quake 4. While I agree with this, I'm not so sure id will stay true to the original very far.
.plan (about DOOM 3) was that he said it would focus on single player gameplay, which contradicts what I originally suspected he'd be working on.
As you know, JC has recently been in "research" mode, and I'm sure JC is well-aware of the "yet another FPS" complaints. For these 2 reasons, it leads me to believe that DOOM 3 will take a different direction than previous DOOMs. The most suprising part of his
What other direction can a FPS-series take? I'm not sure, but I really suspect we're in for a surprise. The people at id seemed to reject Adrian's request for DOOM 3 for the same reasons some of you guys would probably, and I'm sure they took that into consideration.
A few years back, I purchased the id Anthology boxed set, which included Quake, All the Dooms (including the supposed "Final Doom"), and everything made before (Such as all the Commander Keens, Wolfenstein's, etc.) Now, I love doom, so I'm not really mad that they're making more dooms after the final doom, but I am kind of afraid that they'll bring back Commander Keen...
Yeah, there were at least two things in DOOM that scared me more than any other game so far.
1: The first time you meet one of the "invisible" versions of the pink demons. I freaked - shooting the shotgun off at random all over the place, thinking Sh*t sh*t it's invisible!!! ARRGH!
2: The first time you meet the CyberDemon. You start in this little room in the middle of the level, and you hear this roaring and stomping of an enemy you haven't met before... it was hard to go out and face him.
Ahh. Memories.
Too bad about the political infighting at ID though. You have to wonder what it's going to be like working there for John, Adrian, and Kevin, now that they've had such a nasty, public disagreement.
I honestly wonder if the company will stick together long enough to finish the game. It would not surprise me if the bad feelings escalate - after all, I bet Adrian and Kevin didn't expect John to post all the details of Paul Steed's firing in his plan.
Oh well. I suppose John, Graeme, Paul, and the rest could just leave and form a new company.
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
Well, I can personally testify that PS was an asshole, in any circumstance I had to correspond with him he ended up being rude. No idea if he was always that way or the job stress did it, but yes, he was very rude.
But an idiot? Nah, that must have been some other guy. I'm not gonna testify that PS was some incredible genius who left everyone except Carmack in the dust or anything, but he was plenty bright, enough to make good leaps of intuition... he wasn't the type who had to show his work to be able to get from A to B, and being hacker-ish myself, that's the kind of intelligence I respect.
I wouldn't want him to marry my sister, but I don't think he's at all stupid.
I haven't seen any Quake source, actual engine stuff, but I agree with your opinion of the .qc files and the q2 source, both seem like they should have been planned better from the start and then that the writing of the actual code changes from genius to barely capable from one routine to the next...
My guess is that JC wrote some of the more complex routines, especially where things have to use engine features (traces and such) in complex ways, then left everything else to the other programmers. No need to waste the engine coder on writing movement code for some stupid monster.
Exactly. I don't think coders are more important than artists or designers, or vice versa, without any group the game flops (if it ever gets made). But JC is world class talent and not only that, he's one of the best inovators out there. He's the guy who wrote the book, in many ways. Sure Adrian and Kevin are usefull, and so is the rest of id, but I'd say that of any one person, Carmack is the most talented. And the one most likely to still be the most talented in five or ten years. He hasn't gone the way of the dodo, insisiting we don't need 3d cards just because he's great at ASM optimization or anything, he's instead updated his skill set until he's not only a great coder in the new area but also an expert in the hardware accelerators.
Rarely can someone make the shift in focus so smoothly and he's done a wonderful job of it. He's also the identity of the company. Even after the egos of Romero, Hook, and Steed, he's what people identify with id, and with successful game developers, quiet unassuming guys who pull successes out of the hat, one after another. If he leaves, he might as well take the name, 'cause he *is* id.
Actually, Kevin and Adrian aren't management, they're part owners (thirds, with JC). Management is under them. id's CEO was a later hire when they realized a bunch of geeks should do geek stuff, not push paper. id's management could counsel on a certain decision, but being as how it's the owners who were disagreeing, management wouldn't have a say in it.
This was owner vs owners, not management / employees. Some employees did get caught up in it, but it was a higher level fight.
About a year ago, it looked more and more like id is just going to become a technology company.
Then Q3A came out, and that changed. Q3A was an extremely polished game; one of the most polished I have ever played. The whole thing had a wonderful feel and looked and played consistently. There was a single goal, one driving vision behind the game: provide the best serious, hard-core deathmatch possible. I think it delivered spectacularly.
I look forward to the next Doom. The atmosphere in the original (Doom I episode I in particular) was just EERIE. Updated graphics and a new engine will be amazing.
Given the choice between Q3A and UT, I'll take UT. It's even more polished than Q3A, IMHO.
I find it hard to play UT in a serious setting. The weapons just have have the same feel as Q3A's; by that I mean, they seem much more like a collection of toys that you use to just blast away the player. But Q3A just seems so much more serious and down-to-the-core of deathmatching, you know?
UT's Team Play is arguably better, but only because it includes more gameplay styles out-of-the-box. Q3:Team Arena should fix that. But I still enjoy CTF in Q3A more; the sniper rifle in UT is just painful. Too, too many games turn into boring snipe fests. I find Q3A tends to be a lot more fast-paced, without sacrificing the teamplay aspects.
But still, even after all these years, my all-time favorite deathmatch is Doom II. The addition of the double barrel shotgun was enough to add some speed and flavor to the game without breaking the balance (I think it actually improved upon the balance, as short range kills were now feasible against a skilled BFG user.) The speed was just insane; play Doom II DeathMatch for hours on end and you'll feel like you are high on some illegal substance. I haven't had that same adrenaline rush since...newer games are just too slow.
I hope id brings back the frantic pace in the new Doom.
Wolfenstein 2001 IS being worked on; it's called Return to Castle Wolfenstein, being developed by Gray Matter Interactive Studios, which is made up of the former employees of Xatrix (makers of Kingpin.)
So let's see:
He describes how a developer got canned
for political reasons and then in the same post
says that id is looking to hire.
Hmmm.....
I always thought John had *control* of id, now it's obvious that he does not. If two rogue employees hold more than 50% of the company, they can basically clean house if they want to ... including John Carmack.
I'm trying to figure out how someone as extremely intelligent as John let a company that he built from the ground up get into the hands of two obviously spiteful people.
What's next, Carmack is fired because he wants to use reflective light sources that Kevin and Adrian are totally against?
This could spell the beginning of the end for id I'm afraid.
As far as DooM III goes, I'm all for it *if* they do co-op play the way it was in DooM II. Deathmatch is simply old and boring now and co-op is where it's at, at least for me and my friends when we do LAN parties. For instance, last time we had a LAN party we spent 6 hours playing Rainbow Six co-op and about 20 minutes playing Quake III deathmatch. And even that was too long.
Begin rant;
I'm usually not this harsh, but this time I think I can make an exception.
I hated Doom. The FPS genre wasn't really worth playing until somewhere about the release of Duke3d.
Doom was much like all of ID's games. Too dark, and completely without any sort of personality.
Duke3d was a brilliant game, because it was fun to play. Your character had a personality.
At the time of Dooms original release I was still using my Amiga, and for the life of me I really couldn't see what all the fuss was about. You walked around with a gun in this poorly lit environment, unable to jump, taking hits from chunky looking baddies using a character with all the charisma of Sly Stallone.
Coming from a platform where fluid movement, and fun to control characters were the norm, I found doom one of the most boring experiences ever.
Doom II was no better. Then there was Quake, a game that had less different textures than I have fingers to count them on. That's if you could see them at all, it was so dark.
QuakeII, however, even though it looked a bit samey throughout was a good engine, and not a bad game.
Then came QuakeIII. A brilliant engine which was sadly lacking the game.
I can only hope that Duke Forever materialises to remind everyone what a truly fun game is like. But, in the same way Billy Corgan said it was hard to compete with the Britney Spears' of the world, it's really hard to compete with the Doom rehashes of the world!
End rant.
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
"How much truth can advertising buy?" - iNsuRge - AK47
For some reason I can't access the .plan to read the details. Could someone please post it? That said, the trend in the industry seems to be targeting net play. Since across the board high bandwidth net access is years away, picking up an old game, updating the graphics and scenes, and adapting it to low/56k net play probably isn't a bad idea. Especially in cases like Doom where the sheer number of existant levels is large.
Net play is fine, but what attracts me to a game is a well developed plot. Most of these net play versions seem to focus on dweebs at home fragging their buddies across the net. Give me a world where I get to shoot the baddies, discover levels and fight to survive. An a believable reason for doing so.
Without knowing much about the inner workings of game programs, I wonder how hard it would be to use some sort of interpolator like they use in scanneres and digital cameras to "upgrade" levels between different game versions by adding approximate detail geometry?
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I happen to think that majority stock holders should be able to decide what a company does and doesn't do. id is no exception, no matter how cool a new DOOM sounds like -- after all, we can't be sure what the other development alternatives are.
Marko Karppinen
Bottom line, who doesn't believe that if John Carmack left ID tomorrow he would be able to continue working on what he wants
Well...considering he's just stated that what he wants to be working on is Doom III, me; Doom is of course id's intellectual property. On the other hand, from a technical standpoint--which is what JC does anyways--your point still stands. Besides, assuming his leaving was mutual and relatively amicable, Kevin and Adrian might let John's new company use the Doom name anyways (like they're letting Xatrix make a new Wolfenstein).
I'm glad to hear somebody else feels this way! I really am tired of the "heavy-metal-bang-your-head-until-your-ears-bleed
www.eFax.com are spammers
"Without the only man who keeps this company alive, Id goes under."
..
John Carmack is good. John Carmack is not god.
To work at iD software, you have to be the "best of the best" -- and be proven at what you do. Not just any joe-schmoe walks off the street and gets in because "the company can rely on the one guy who does all the work"
John does engine work with 2 other programmers. There are also 3 level mappers and 3 character animators. This is a balanced company, even if one of the guys happens to be so skilled at one thing he does that he is revered as a god.
---
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Hmmm! During DOOM days, I made a few DOOM maps, and mods. hehe.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I play a lot of Counterstrike (the most popular mod for Halflife online), and while it does slow you down when you are carrying a lot of stuff, its based on what weapon you have in your hand, not what you are carrying, so switching to the knife means you can run faster with a heavy weapon and lots of ammo. Kinda lame in the reality sense.
I do see any reason why they could not add a "fatigue meter" which reflects how much exertion you are putting out, slows down your reactions when high, and cycles down when you rest. I think this would add a bit of realism to games without taking away the fun factor of being able to haul around heavy weapons and loads of ammo. It would also equalize things for the poor schmuck who only has a pistol when you have an AK47. If you just ran a long ways and your aim and speed were affected while he has been at rest the entire time, then he might be able to pop you when you meet.
While not realistic overall, I think CS is probably better than most games out there for the balancing realism vs gameplay. Except for the stupid leaping maneuver to avoid being shot which I think they should eliminate.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
Looking Glass Studios did this with the Theif series and look what happened to them. :(
-------- This space intentionally left blank --------
BTW, who are you?
When I first read this article on some other site, I somehow understood it as news that they were going to rerelease the original version, but with updated tech. That would have been awesome! Oh, well. A geek's gotta dream....
Now, if only someone would get started on Wolfenstein 2001, we'd have it made!
Got Rhinos?
Gamespot did a feature on the top ten games which should be remade. Doom finished third for atmosphere. A link is here.
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
It sounds like unfair dismissal to me. I don't know about US law, but the UK you can sue if an employer does this. I know, because it's happened to me, and I did, and I won.
Any questions?
Thad
Thad
Perhaps JC is throwing down his own gauntlet.....fire me if you dare! As a part owner of ID he is not invulnerable, but as the guru of ID he is invaluable to them. His statement that the firing was against him simply shows that he is using this forum to spit on his employers for their stupidity, maybe to get them to grovel back to Steed, maybe just to show them that he regards many things as more important than ID software and that one of them is loyalty to the people who have brought the success.
Bottom line, who doesn't believe that if John Carmack left ID tomorrow he would be able to continue working on what he wants, the only question is if he stays with ID can he work with who he wants? It is a power struggle between the developers whose products bring the sales and the owners who reap the rewards with Carmack saying that he ain't going to take no fscking tihs.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
UT and QA:3 are good games in my opinon - if you really like shooting your friends over and over for hours on end :-) I do - we host lan parties at my house from time to time, and it's a blast!
But the basic game? Doom / Doom 2 are better games. I don't know how many hours of gameplay I've put into those two, but, it probably amounts to much more than I put into QI, QII, Q3:A, Unreal, and UT together for each of them. Doom was truely adictive!
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Ohh, they can make a new DOOM all they want, it just won't be the same as the original! Hey, I mean, look at what they just WON'T be able to re-create:
- No more hassle loading half-working IPX packet drivers in DOS. I really enjoyed spending hours trying to get extremely bad coded TSRs to work for Multiplayer DOOM!
- No more sluggish, horrible mouse control where you had to mess with the mouse driver's sensitivity to make it any usable, so that it would give you an unfair edge in the game.
- No more "visual" weapons, like the BFG. (Ha, my shot hit the wall, but then, who cares, I was looking at you, so now you're getting torn into little pieces anyway!)
- No more "Hey! That's unfair, my keyboard buffer was full, it just kept beeping while I stood there silly! You're taking unfair advantage, YOU SUCK!!"
- And finally, no "global sound" allowing you to know exactly where the others are, just by hearing the sound of a swith pulled on the other side of the map.
So you see? I just won't be it. I don't care if they call it DOOM, it won't be MY DOOM. How sad. (Wet eyes, *SNIFF*)
Religion is the best example of mass psychosis
Tribes, for example. Team-based, mostly outdoors (the maps seem to be at least a kilometer across), and reasonably tactical (winning has nothing to do with how many times you kill or get killed, even though you'll do lots of both).
As far as upcoming games go, there's always Halo, although there'll probably be lots of shooting in that one too, so maybe it's not such a great example.
. . . but then there's the various massively-multiplayer games, which I personally haven't played (paying $50 for a game, and then another $10/month for the privilege of continuing to play strikes me as somewhat offensive, even if I do understand the financial argument behind it). I'm led to believe that it's possible to have a grand old time just wandering around and meeting people, but I could be wrong on that.
Of course, if we set aside the entire genre of "shooters" then there's all sorts of bizarro gaming available -- 3D Trophy Bass Fishing, anyone? Lots of racing/sports games, and plenty of puzzlers too.
However, you do make a good point -- much of the innovation in the shooter market is simply upping the graphics requirements. But don't forget, there are other genres available . . .
Well, I'm not sure if I really have a point here, except to say that there's lots of variety, even in the shooter market.
I have no
Read what he writes will you, its a REMAKE of Doom.
--
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Maybe running through tunnels on search and destroy missions is your bag, but it certainly is not mine. When will id come up with (ahem) A NEW IDEA?
--
--
fat lenny's gonna lick your brain today.
I've always thought that the stupid little story lines that go with these games should end with something like "You finish what is possibly the last bottle of Scotch in the universe, make sure your electric wheelchair is fully charged, and start into the tunnel."
Seriously, if a level is named "chemical plant" or "spacecraft hanger" it should look like one, and not just another mass of anonymous tunnels.
Nobody cares about the "story line", anyway.
Welcome to the Turing Tarpit, where everything is possible but nothing interesting is easy.
In this case, iD is in Texas. Though it may be a Delaware corporation, I'll bet dollars to donuts that its employment contracts have a 'Choice of Law' clause that specifies Texas Law to be used to settle disputes.
Texas is an "At Will" employment law state. That means either party can terminate an employment contract "at will." That means you do not have to give reasons, beyond some minimum guarantees that the decision was not unconstitutionally discriminatory, i.e., based on race, gender, etc.
Some states do have "Right To Work" employment laws, but I believe they're in the minority.
So in "At Will" states, even if you do an excellent job, that "You're fired!" that comes out of the blue is perfectly legal.
Hack The Law. (.com coming soon I hope)
The official home page for gldoom is www.frag.com/doom
Don't forget all you've seen so far is Carmack's side of the story. While it may be accurate he has by his own admission taken a 'side' on the issue which is against the other owners so it stands to reason that they are being portrayed in a not-so-good light. As far as what the development staff want to do - how do we know what they want to do? It could have been just Carmack and Steed that were that adamant about working on DOOM for all we know (although granted it was likely more than just those two). It'll be interesting to see how this shakes down - I wouldn't want to be a new hire coming into id right now. Look at all the people who have left recently, Hook, Cash, James, etc. - it must be one helluva work environment! Now the owners are fighting and pitching ultimatums - could be the beginning of the end for idsoftware...
The also need to have MANY creatures swaming you. Everyone remembers the rooms with 20-30 soldiers in them all swarming you, only to be blown to bits by a BFG. The most creatures the Quake series had on screen was maybe 5 creatures. We got the horsepower here folks, lets use it. It was a hallmark of the Doom series. TONS AND TONS of creatures on the screen at once. A huge gorefest with the plasma gun and BFG. It's what made the game FUN.
Outdoor areas. We need HUGE ones, throw in fog if you gotta, but the levels need to be HUGE. Giant outdoor areas with huge scifi buildings in the middle.None of this Quake stuff where a level LOOKED big, then you got filtered into a building via a tunnel to hide the flaws of the engine. We need Jedi Knight type areas with Quake Technology.
We need all the weapons back, and maybe 5-10 more.
I hate to say it, but get Romero back in the gang. After Diakatana the guy has proven he can't work outside of id software. I really think he had an awesome role with the Doom series. I know he was around for Quake .. And that was ALMOST cool.. But they were too limited to technology back then.. Maybe they dont need him, im not sure..
As for firing Steed, dunno what to say. It just sounds like a lame thing to do. I sure wouldnt want a job there after reading that mess. Screw that!
Personally, if I were Carmack, i'd leave the company and go work for Verant on Everquest 2 or something..
I eat the flesh off the living, and I vote!
Oh...my...God! What a dork! Do you have to roll 20-sided dice on the pine needles to figure out if you hit the goblins? You probably lose a lot of dice this way, what with it being too dark to tell if your friends are really goblins or not. I thought Civil War reenactments were stupid. And isn't "magic" spelled "magick"? Do you guys pour hot grits down each other's pants when you want to "raise" each other?
First, Graeme Devine is on the id team. He was the developer of The 7th Guest and The 11th Hour - full motion video, puzzle-oriented games. Devine has said he was hired specifically to design and develop the next game. Hence, don't assume at all that the next Doom (not necessarily Doom III) will be an FPS in the purest sense. I suspect it may have more aspects of an adventure game - maybe even more than Half-Life.
Second, and this is the Bad Mojo ... Steed may be gone, but Adrian Carmack and Kevin Cloud remain. They are essentially being told they are going to work on a game they don't believe in. What kind of workplace scenario is that? Carmack, Carmack and Cloud all work together in the same big room, or at least they did when I last visited. I suspect that's a pretty tense workspace.
It will get worse before it gets better.
--
C'mon, baby, kiss The King.
Site seems to be slashdotted, so here's the copy:
.plan update.
6/1/00
------
Well, this is going to be an interesting
Most of this is not really public business, but if some things aren't stated
explicitly, it will reflect unfairly on someone.
As many people have heard discussed, there was quite a desire to remake DOOM
as our next project after Q3. Discussing it brought an almost palpable thrill
to most of the employees, but Adrian had a strong enough dislike for the idea
that it was shot down over and over again.
Design work on an alternate game has been going on in parallel with the
mission pack development and my research work.
Several factors, including a general lack of enthusiasm for the proposed plan,
the warmth that Wolfenstien was met with at E3, and excitement about what
we can do with the latest rendering technology were making it seem more and
more like we weren't going down the right path.
I discussed it with some of the other guys, and we decided that it was
important enough to drag the company through an unpleasant fight over it.
An ultimatum was issued to Kevin and Adrian(who control >50% of the company):
We are working on DOOM for the next project unless you fire us.
Obviously no fun for anyone involved, but the project direction was changed,
new hires have been expedited, and the design work has begun.
It wasn't planned to announce this soon, but here it is: We are working on a
new DOOM game, focusing on the single player game experience, and using brand
new technology in almost every aspect of it. That is all we are prepared to
say about the game for quite some time, so don't push for interviews. We
will talk about it when things are actually built, to avoid giving
misleading comments.
It went smoother than expected, but the other shoe dropped yesterday.
Kevin and Adrian fired Paul Steed in retaliation, over my opposition.
Paul has certainly done things in the past that could be grounds for
dismissal, but this was retaliatory for him being among the "conspirators".
I happen to think Paul was damn good at his job, and that he was going to be
one of the most valuable contributors to DOOM.
We need to hire two new modeler/animator/cinematic director types. If you
have a significant commercial track record in all three areas, and consider
yourself at the top of your field, send your resume to Kevin Cloud.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
The site is
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Ok, go read the .plan update! Then come back and finish reading. Carmack explains things to a certain degree in the .plan file.
Basically, so far, is seems Kevin Cloud and Adrian Carmack (no relation) have had a fit over J. Carmack and gang wanting to work on a Doom remake. No matter what game id cranks out, it's going to sell at least marginally well. I can see no justification for two guys to fire Paul Steed just to get back at Carmack for doing what he and the development staff WANT to work on.
It reeks of arrogance so far and I really hope Steed gets back on the project. While he's known to be an asshole, I think he's the right guy to work on Doom 2000 models and animations. And in the end, I trust J. Carmack over Adrian and Kevin when it comes to what is a good game and who is good for the job.
And many people have been giving Carmack shit for exposing this publically. Well, good. I like to know why Steed is gone and what kind of position Carmack is in. I hope I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but Carmack seems to be the kind of guy who just wants to be left alone to do his own thing and not deal with politcal business crap.
Until Kevin and Adrian have some kind of rational other than, "we don't want to do D2K", shame on them!
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
Dunno why, but I still think Doom is spookier and more enthralling than Quake and its sequels. Somehow, there's a greater feeling of fear when going round the corner knowing there could be a whole horde of bad guys, instead of just one or two, and I think the lower quality music, which reminds me of John Carpenter movies for some reason, paradoxically added to the aura the game just radiates.
Problem I can see is, how would Doom 3 build on the earlier Doom games ? I suspect better resolution bad guys may paradoxically lower the creepiness factor.
For fun and sillyness, I think cooperative multiplayer Nightmare Doom, with monsters, has a lot to recommend it. Seems to get to the point where all the monsters are congregating round the resurrection points and you can't get anywhere....
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I still remember back when BBS's were the thing and DOOM had just come out. My friend Karl who was working doing some really high-power computer stuff (i think he was working on something for 3d studio) that required him to have a 486dx-50, 40 meg of ram, and a 21 inch monitor. He used to have these parties called "geekfests" where all the local BBS geeks would get to gether and hang out.
In any case, the one where i first experienced DOOM in it's fullness was there, in a darkened room, with the 21" in front of me, and his sound card hooked up to the stereo. That feeling of your heart racing as you creep down a darkened passageway and have one of those ugly pink buggers with the lumpy heads come loking up on you is just unbeatable. Only a couple games ever gave me that feeling. It would be the following: Alien Breed (on the Amiga. Basicly a gauntlet knock off, but with Alien dudes, and _awesome_ sound), DOOM, and Alone In The Dark, which i wish somebody would remake for modern 3D technology. AITD was basicly like that old nintendo game "shadowgate" but realtime 3rd person 3d. Cool =:-)
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
Well, yet again we will probably see another round of 3D-technology pushing to enhance "realism" in a game where you can run full speed carrying hundreds of pounds of weapons and never get tired.
Death, where is thy sting?
- Possibility number 1: Adrian and Kevin undermine the entire development of Doom III to prove their point. If they were willing to fire an employee IN RETALIATION, they have the guts to kill a product simply out of spite. Expected result: Id goes under.
- Possibility number 2: Company relations go down the shitter faster than they did at Ion Storm. John Carmack says "fuck this" and leaves. Without the only man who keeps this company alive, Id goes under.
- Possibility number 3: John Carmack and, say, Activision try to buy back A & K's shares. They won't sell, and the company goes under.
When company owners disagree violently on the direction their business is taking, there are two possible outcomes: someone leaves, or the place fights until it's out of money.Goodbye ID. Thanks for all the fish.
"The advance of technology is a problem for us"
-------------------------
"After Careful Consideration, Bush Recommends Oil Drilling" - The Onion
What'd they threaten John with? The BFG-9000?
If Steed was in fact fired because of Carmack and crew were rebelling, and if he really wanted to avoid the political atmosphere of the office, he should leave id. I wouldn't want to work in a place that would fire someone else to get back at me, instead that would say I'm good enough to leave and do some good work somewhere else. (I'd have to watch the ego, though...)
Seriously, take the loyal talent and start somewhere else. This would be the perfect time to leave before getting into the middle of the next project. Sure, it wouldn't be doom, but you know it would be something nifty and fun, right?
It just seems wrong that the people who made id aren't the people who get a say in what it does. There's a whole group of talented people possibly going to go to waste here... who's next to be fired? Who would want to work there based on this kind of display? Isn't it hard to be creative when you're watching your back or fighting just to get your job done?
I just can't imagine sitting at a desk working on Doom 3 and accepting that I got my wish and it only cost one guy his job. That's bad karma, man.
Carmack, you've got the talent to make it work. Do the right thing. A lot of people are looking up to you...
I just have to say this rox my sox off.
;)
I always thought Doom had a much more believable environment, atmosphere...even though it didn't have neat-o polygon graphics. Doom (hey, and even Wolf3d) kept me on the edge of my seat a lot more than Quake or Quake 2 did. I hope id is returning to spending a lot of time creating a rich atmosphere instead of just throwing more graphics on the screen at a faster rate (which I agree is itself a great accomplishment that has taken a tremendous amount of skill and effort).
I can't wait to get back to that good ole double barrel shotgun
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
I've always said that Doom and Doom II were better than the newer games, for the simple reason that they were just so much more immersive. I can only hope that Doom III lives up to their high standards of atmosphere and mood.
:) I Still think they're pretty damn scary for an image on a screen.. they just have this aura of "ultimate badass" that makes you run at full speed away..
Call it nostalgia, whatever, but there was some magic in firing up Doom shareware for the first time on my old 486-66 w/ 4MB RAM, and just playing for hours, completely immersed in the game. When I got Doom II, I couldn't put it down for weeks, it just drew me into it.. no other game before or since, except Diablo, has ever had that effect on me.
I used to have nightmares about cyberdemons
Last August, a friend of mine and I decided, on a whim, to relive past glories and play some Doom II deathmatches again.. well, we did that, and it was still as fun as it ever had been (fancy 3d graphics be damned! gameplay is still king *grin*).. so fun, in fact, that we then played through all 33 levels cooperatively.. I can't remember the last time I had so much pure enjoyment from any game. It was bliss.
-subtraho
Well, I'm not surprised that he (and others there) would like to make another DOOM. DOOM was a very successful product and an incredible game. Capturing its spirit will be a challenge since a lot of DOOM's factors were in its ability to give you such an impending sense of danger and power:
But there are some issues--when DOOM came out, people were new to the first person shooter genre and one of the reasons DOOM was such a fun game was as you learned how to play you started being able to kill monsters better. These days I (and most experienced players) can run rings around a Cyberdemon and toy with him. DOOM taught me how to strafe, dammit.
It's a shame to see Paul let go. He was certainly one who didn't have any problem expressing his opinions. But he could sure pound out some amazing 3D models. His work in Quake2 and Quake3 was outstanding--it's sad to see his art won't be in the new DOOM.
A part of me is upset with my own disassocation with id. I would have loved working on DOOM CTF levels.
In any case, I can't wait to see what id can come up with in a new DOOM. I want to be scared all over again.
/// Zoid.
Firstly, for Paul Steed to have been hired by id no doubt implies that he was a very talented employee.
.plan is the voice of one employee in a company. A lot of posts seem to revere his words as the gospel truth. I'm sure management has their side of the story. I greatly respect JC's opinion when it comes to the tech side of things and performing sacriligious surgery on ferrari engines but for internal company politics his voice should be weighed as heavily as any other id employee.
Remember that JC's
My suspicion is that Steed's firing must have been a result of more than just this one incident. It may have been the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I don't think management would draw sticks or do the poisoned donut routine to determine who-gets-the-shaft-so-we-can-get-back-at-cormack. There must have been some reasoning behind their move.
Making a soap opera of id's internal politics may be entertaining for us, but personally I don't think it is any of our business. How many companies would allow employees to publically release information about internal politics like JC did?
It's a shame when any skilled employee has to leave a company because of social reasons and not because of lack of proficiency. I hope Steed's career goes well (I'm sure it will), and that life at id will continue normally (not likely).
My sympathies to Steed and id.
remember... it's just a game.
- j
Zoid's a sweetie, but he's understating things just a tad.
I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but id's politics have always been incredibly severe. It's sort of a treehouse/boy's club atmosphere, very charged with adrenaline, egos, and testosterone. I loved it and contributed to it. It's an infectious behavior. Romero and Kevin, in particular, would use their 18 Charismas to make the politics fun. Don't ask me how that's possible. You'd have to be there. It's very colourful. You forgive the atmosphere pretty quickly when they start plopping multiple 5- and 6-figure bonuses in your lap.
But it's actually nice to see John put that in his plan file. It's more truthful advertising if the prospective employees know what's going on behind the curtain. These same kind of politics affect your bonuses, your workload, and frankly your general health if you're prone to stress-related problems like ulcers, skin problems, or gum disease. You guys would be pretty shocked to hear the real stories of how several of id's talented people left the company, but it's never a binary, "He humped a farm animal on company time."
This is definitely not the sign of an id implosion. Kevin and Adrian won't be pleased about John's plan file, but they're fundamentally level-headed businessmen and will probably get over it. John won't stop coding. Everything he does is fun to work with, and if they fire John, the daily miracles that time the id engine will simply move elsewhere.
I do ABSOLUTELY recommend if you're a talented artist to apply for the position. It's an adventure unlike anything you'll embark. You'll make grievous wads of cash. You'll gape at the bizarre effects of instant media focus. You'll get to watch and learn from some of the industry's finest talent. You'll fear for your mortal soul if you get a ride from John to work. You'll have access to almost any software tool or piece of hardware you want to get your hands on.
It's a growth experience.
John:
Please, for the love of god, don't make this one brown.
Pope
Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
"Note to Kevin and Adrian: Firing developers out of spite ain't cool. "
Assuming that one person's comments sum up the objective truth of a matter also ain't cool. 9)
-Ed
Doom III? Will it be as good as Bill and Ted's II, Back to the Future III and Rocky XXXIV?
I realize that everyone reading this story gets a hardon when you say the word "Doom" and so I can kiss karma goodbye, but come on! Wolfenstein was revolutionary. Doom was "advanced". Everything since then is "copycat". Yes, even the stuff from id.
Will we ever get beyond 1st person shooters? Don't give me crap about "Quake is revolutionary, some of the monsters are green" either. I want a NEW GAME. I don't want to play the SAME GAME except for the requirement of a NEW VIDEO CARD.
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
In every company I've been in, if the fighting's got so bad that you let it leak out to potential customers, the company is finished. Dead. Kaput. Every company has fights, but when senior people are criticising other senior people in public you don't have a team any more. Await implosion.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
I have to say, I played Doom only once, and played it against my (then) 8 yr old sister (I was 20) and she beat me really really bad. I haven't had any desire to play those kinds of games ever since. I still have not lived down that kind of humiliation.
This is great... But will it be the same Doom that we all know and love? Or will it be Quake in a Doom setting?
-- Dr. Eldarion --
It's not what it is, it's something else.
Actually, there are already quite a few versions of Doom with some updated technology in them. OpenGL implementations are a good example (though the first GLDoom didn't get finished, unluckly :-( ) There are hacks that add better handling of sectors for more advanced maps, hacks that add the look up / look down, all sorts of stuff.
Depending on what you mean by Doom with 'updated tech', just adding better graphics won't bring it up to par with Quake3 or Unreal Tournament. Doom uses 2D sprites, which only leaves 8 positions that the bad guys can be viewed from (on the up side - that's also the reason why you can have tons and tons of enemies on screen without major slowdowns!) Look up / Down is highly problematic (partialy because of the 2D sprite issue), the maps are "2.5 D" maps - while they have a height setting, areas cannot cross over each other, etc., etc., etc.
Doom is pretty old tech... Damn I love Doom still! Just upgrading the tech isn't quite enough, however, it would require a complete re-write, and everyone would end up bitching about some of the failings of Doom if they didn't. I do hope they do the next Doom correct - a nice scary atmosphere, tons of monsters, etc.
Meanwhile - go look at some of the current modified Doom engines out there:
Doom Legacy offers quite a few extended things from Doom, including 32 player multi-player games
DoomWorld is a good site for tracking down all the other Doom source ports and modifications, plus news of things like Doom for Daikatana (why?), Doom for QA3, etc.
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
I don't think so. Perhaps the reason that there was a huge fight inside ID about this (and we've only heard one side of it, remember) is that the company's owners know what the phrase "One Trick Pony" means.
I remember playing Doom for the first time as vividly as anyone. But what all the Doom-nostalgics out there don't seem to realise is that it is impossible for you to re-live the experience you had when when you first played Doom. You can't pretend you've never played a game like it before. You can't roll the clock back. Read Proust and see for yourself. That's what being nostalgic means, and why nostalgia is related to melancholy. You're want to relive a past experience but you can't.
The only thing that's going to produce a similar experience --- that "Oh my God I'm completely absorbed by this amazing new thing" feeling --- is a wholly new kind of game, and sadly Doom III ain't going to be it, by definition. By embarking on this project, Id are starting to look like the Microsoft of gaming: Doom, Doom 95, Doom 2000... and I bet that's why Kevin and Adrian made such a fuss over the project.
In the gaming industry, the developers are generally representative of the consumer base. The excitement that the development team brought to a project could certainly be an indicator of how well the product would sell and it is foolish for management to ignore it.
.plan file. Given the situation surrounding the firing of Steed, a new employee is likely to be confronted with a somewhat hostile work environment when he arrives.
That being said, I cannot understand why anybody would respond to the request for applications that was posted in that
The firing of Steed casts a cloud around the eventual release of Doom III and the need to train another employee at this time could delay or reduce the quality of the product. id's behavior in this case is very unprofessional and management clearly did not consider the best interests of the company or the consumers.
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.