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Governmental ID System in Japan
Kaan writes: "Japan just launched a mandatory, nationwide ID system whereby every citizen is assigned an 11-digit identification number. The database stores personal data (name, address, date of birth, gender, possibly more data) for each person. At least five municipalities are refusing to join the system, which accounts for ~4 million of the 127 million total. While some Japanese folks are refusing to cooperate, most are going along with it. Is this the beginning of the end of privacy in Japan? How much longer until we see something like that in the U.S.?"
Ahhh, don't we have something like that already known as a social security number?
a Social Insurance number? ;-)
Mmmm......sacrelicious.
This sort of thing has been in place in many countries for quite some time. In Sweden, for example, every resident has a "personnummer" (personal number) that you use for identification purposes. It consists of your birthdate followed by another four-digit number. And the US has their Social Security number.
So what I'm interested in is, what's the problem?
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When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is no longer our friend.
Tell me, how does Japan's ID plan affect their privacy any more than the US social security number system affect ours (in the US)?
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
I am as much for privacy as the next guy, but is this really that big of a deal?
We all have a 9 digit social security number in the states; and if you want to be able to function in society you have some form of official state ID (Drivers licence, or plain ID card) which has your address, date of birth, and so on, as well as your SSN (associated in the database, if not explicity printed on the card).
Or I could be completely wrong...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
We only have a 9 digit number instead...
Seriously though, why all the fuss about a national ID? We have it at the State level already and you don't see people screaming big brother about that. Here in Ohio, we have drivers licenses but you can also get a "State ID" card which looks like it only it says "non driver" if for some reason you can't drive (say, due to age).
Granted its just yet another card I'll have to carry about with me, unless maybe they strike a deal with states to combine the ID with drivers licenses as well as using them as just standard ID's (for non drivers).
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
This should be a very good thing to watch, to see if rights are violated, if it really does help people, and does everything it is designed to do. Also, who's gonna be the first to hack that DB? It's only a matter of time, you know..
An 11 digit number is exremely easy to fake, or to guess based on toher peoples ID. If you want to steal somebodies identity, all you need to do is hack into their computers, change the picture to one of yourself and the address to a P.O. Box, and ask for an ID card, passport, and driving licence to be sent to your new address.
Suddenly I'm a high ranking diplomat with diplomatic immunity in most nations, and can do anything.
Governments already have information on you, and they use your name to get to it.
Same system, but the number is now in place of your name. Doesn't seem like a problem to me.
It's all good.
I wouldn't care if everything about me was public, assuming people can not use that information to pretend to be me. I do care when my privacy is being taken away by a government that itself requires privacy. Privacy is for hiding mistakes and trying to patch flawed systems (social security numbers, credit cards).
Cool, Ashcroft got Japan to run his Beta Testing for him.
We already have such a number: your SSN. Although it isn't "supposed" to be such, it is the de facto national ID number. And when some shmuck in SoCal declared bankruptcy using mine, it would have been most convenient for the magistrate there to be able to look the number up in a dbase and say, "Well, Mr. Huang, are you sure you are a 40 something white male living on the East Coast?"
I know, I hate the idea of gummint having a file on me, but the big credit agencies have one already.
I'd rather everyone get their own lifelong email address and URL at birth. Now that would be handy.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
...and see what a dictature they live in ! Now not only does the state know people's gender, they know people's AGE too ! This is ludacris ! Before you'll know, they will keep people's ADRESS too ! Ludacris !
You don't need a SSN to work in the US. It is a lot of paperwork to wade through, you usually have to educate your employer that one is not necessary, and fill out a million forms to get a job, but you don't actually have to have one to work.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
*thick german accent* "Papers?"
... in this case, however, I think it is the governments who brought them to mind, not me.
You know, somebody once said that a rational argument is over as soon as somebody mentions nazis
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
"How much longer until we see something like that in the U.S.?"
What do you mean, "when"? It's called the Social Security Number, or more accurately these days, "Taxpayer Identification Number". And besides just name, address, date of birth and gender, it's tied to your employment history (in governemnt databases), credit history, medical history, and tons more (in "private" databases).
Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself.
I know that it sounds like a troll, but seriously this is the kind of thing that made me a Libertarian. My towns congressmen , both Dem. and Rep, have all pledged to fight government invasion of privacy, but they keep voteing us closer to this kind of thing.
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We already have this. Check your wallet. It is called a Driver's License. If you don't drive and you are over the age of 18, you most likely have an "ID Card" issued from your DMV. You also have a MANDATORY social security number.
Last I checked, the "government" could get at these records any time they choose already.
Our CPR (Central Person Registry) stores your CPR-number. Mine looks like this:
130477-1235 (no, this is not my real CPR-number)
This indicates that my birthdate is the 13th day of the 04th month of the 77th year.
1235 is the "checksum" and gender-marker; even numbers for women, uneven for men. I think they use X for women and Y for men without a permanet citizen ship (refugees and the like).
Also, the entire number has to pass some kind of test, but I can't remember how it's used.
The CPR also has the current address of each person along with an opt out feature for commercial mail targeted at you, which is nice, because all companies in Denmark have to comply by that setting, but they only have access to the address through CPR.
You can read a lot more about the system here.
I am a proponent of personal privacy, and I don't have a problem with this system - probably because I can't think of a single intrusion into my privacy caused by it.
I think it comes down to "trust", and so far I haven't had a reason not to trust the CPR.
We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
It's just easier this way.
Don't call my crazy, that's what they called me back in the home!
Denmark has had this since the 1970's, which is also the reason why the Danish population is very popular amongst researchers. All health care information is available through this central computer system, and this makes researchers able to find correlations quickly. All tax information is provided this way, too. You cannot open a bank account without telling your 10-digit identification number, which the bank will use to report to the state.
It is extremely convenient - when moving, you only have to tell it once, and then all banks, insurance companies, the army (if you are reserve), your doctor etc. know your new address.
There are some security concerns and there is a very strict legislation about how to handle this system, but the economical benefits are huge and it does benefit society a lot.
Having lived in both in Denmark where everybody has an ID-number (but no ID-cards), and in Germany, where everybody has an ID-card (but no ID-number), I clearly prefer the Danish system.
Dybdahl.
...already have identification numbers, be they for ID cards, social security or both. In most cases, the only centralized information is in the number itself, linked to the name. I haven't heard of any widespread falsification through hacking. Of course, if the number itself isn't directly based on the info, which is instead stored in a database, things could get awry... Yet, it's weird people would complain about getting such a unique id number when database cross-referencing is already common practice.
From the article:
"the new ID numbers -- for each of Japan's 126 million citizens...."
Three paragraphs later:
"About four million of Japan's 127 million people...."
At that rate of population explosion, how long till they run out of number combos?
Then all the Japanese will adopt it without any fuss at all.
Its hard to avoid such ID cards given that most places require driver's licenses. Unless you want to walk everywhere.
Just draw the line at putting some sort of probe up ya arse I say...especially if it is of alien origin.
I believe a unique ID per person in essential in a world with computers. It is very funny that a country so big as the US has to "Abuse" the social security number , since it is the only UNIQE Id you can associate with an individual. ID numbers are very logical , and their value surpresses by far their non-existent privacy problems.
have any of you ever been to japan? the idea of privacy is silly. they never had any, what would they be giving away exactly?
I actually think this is a good idea.
People in the U.S. gripe about identity theft left and right. Part of the reason it's so easy to perform identity theft is that while a social security number is tied to a person, it's only tied by the fact it was assigned. Remember, we recycle these stupid numbers.
I have a Finnish ID number as well, since I lived there for quite some time. That one actually makes sense. It's my birthday in DDMMYY form, plus three digits and a letter. That identifies where I was born, when I was born, and my gender. It's not exactly easy to steal from people, since it really is tied to the person, not simply assigned.
Technically in Finland, you don't have to give out the number, but in reality you use it for a number of things. The cool part is that they write down the last part (the three digits and letter) when checking credit cards, lessening credit card fraud. Anyone remember when they used to check stuff here in the U.S.?
<example_id>040463-395F</example_id>
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
Go ahead. Take a look around.
Look at all the different ways you are tagged to numbers.
Social Security.
Drivers License.
Date of Birth.
Bank Cards.
Credit Cards.
Phone Number.
There are more, but I can't really think since I've been on a bender all weekend.
It would be a lot nicer if just a single number could tie all these other numbers together...
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The GOVERMENT WILL KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE!
How scary is that, they know where you work, they know how much you earn, they know how old you are, they know your gender, they know how many kids you have, they know who your parents are.
This is so scary, and even worse every few years they let you put a poxy "X" on a piece of paper to say you agree with it.
This has to be the biggest non-story of the year, almost every country already does this. You pay taxes, the goverment knows who you are... avoiding taxes then you are a criminal.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Is this the beginning of the end of privacy in Japan?
Why is it 'the end of privacy' if the government wants to know who its citizens are?
As a belgian citizen, I've been living with a mandatory national ID card for all my life (well, from age 12 anyway). This card holds my names, adress, name of wife and kids, a national ID number (birth date + some digits) and a picture. Is that national ID card an infringement on my privacy? NO!
I use the card to identify with state services such as when I want a copy of an official document, when I go vote, etc.; when requested by the police, for banking purposes: I have to show my ID card before doing a withdrawal at the bank, to create a new bank account, ... But NOTHING besides that.
Does my governement keep all this data in a database. Sure they do. What do they do with that? Most certainly nothing.
I fail to understand how you all people see this as an end to privacy. It's your government after all, they're supposed to know who's living where, who voted (voting is mandatory here). There's no pretending you're someone else than you, because that ID card is mandatory and there's a picture of you on it. So you can't pose as someone else (and someone can't pose as you).
Do you remember the story of that wife who kept being arrested because she shared the same name as a wanted criminal? That could never happen with a national ID card, because all she'd have to do was present it and be left alone.
National ID cards are GOOD, not bad.
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
How much longer until we see something like that in the U.S.?" ... Dude, what country do you live in? You can't do ANYTHING in the USA without a SSN. Credit cards have ID#'s, bank accounts have ID#'s, drivers' licenses. Fuck, you even need an ID# to post on slashdot! It's the end of Privacy!
I think that instead of 11-digit identification number, they should be given each person an IPv6 address.
OK, we've still got privacy problems, but at least we are one step closer to some real use of IPv6 technology.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
And frankly, I don't see anything wrong with it. After all, it's just a primary key to the civil DB...
I, too, have a gut reaction against government involvement in my personal life. But I don't actually know how "identification", "authentication", "authorization", and "privacy" (to mention four security buzzwords) interact.
Can someone point me to some useful background material that will help me make judgements on issues such as a national ID card and privacy?
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If it isn't true, don't say it. If it isn't helpful, don't say it. If it's true and helpful, wait for the right time.
Sorry to reply to my own post, but this is the kind of thing that a national ID card would prevent.
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
Portuguese laws forbid different entities from cross-referencing their databases, without explicit approval of the citizens. The way it is written, it even affects different departments of the state -- leading to a social security number, a tax ID number, etc.
I think it is a lot worse the way its done in the US, where everyone and their dog knows your SS#. It is very easy to cross-reference the DBs. At least here, they'd need to do some data mining...
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you
Japan, and many other countries in Asia already had a "family registry" system in place. Taiwan has one too, although their system has always been a national system. It's not particularly unusual. The only thing that's different here than the system already in place is that the information gathered is slightly more, and better tracked on a national scale.
One thing I find rather amusing about this whole affair is that the fact Japan is standardizing what local municipalities have been doing is causing a ruckus, and that the whole "mandatory" aspect of it is trumped up. Japanese citizenship is particularly restrictive already, and given the heavy government involvement in the nationalized school system, etc. it should be no surprise that something such as an identity number should make such a big deal.
Having the information of who lives where is not harmful in of itself, as long as there are severe checks in place as to who can access it and under what circumstances one can access that information. Understandably many in this forum perhaps distrust anyone with this sort of information, but at some level there needs to be some standard of information for every individual in order to do anomaly detection (read: finding terrorists).
I think those of us in countries with a very heavy emphasis on "individual rights" as opposed to "group rights" have a rather strong tendency to look at everything in the view of "self over society" as opposed to particularly respecting other nation-systems and such. Given that it seems the legislation passed, I doubt that the majority does not support this action.
That being said, the United States could not (at this time anyway) pass anything resembling that... people are way too enamored with states rights for anything to ever become nationalized.
-k
yours,
kbs
Although the U.S. are limiting privacy more and more, and this Japanese system is certainly also a very likely invasion of privacy, there is a big difference to keep in mind. The U.S. have a long tradition of privacy, to say the least. It is (was?) one of the fundamental values of this nation. In traditional Japanese culture privacy is an alien concept (just like "right"). Western people think of themselves as individuals in a society, wereas Japanees think in the first place of society and their duties towards it. In this light it is easier to understand why there isn't a larger group of people having problems with this system. The people who *do* have a problem are most likely western oriented. I sure do hope the U.S. or the E.U. (I am Dutch) will not use this system as an example. Perhaps a Japanese reader who can tell something more about this?
In a country where video rental stores routinely demand your social security number before they allow you to rent tapes (and it takes a minimum 30-minute argument with 3 managers to convince them that's an illegal requirement), most or all of the harms of universal ID number are already here. Let's get some of the benefits. With a national ID number and national ID card,
1. Voter registration can be eliminated: Along with all the civil rights battles that entails. Anyone old enough can simply show up at a polling place on election day and vote. This eliminates a whole level of exclusionism.
2. Driver's Licenses can be just for drivers: So, so many Americans who can't drive (for reasons including age, disability, etc.) fight to maintain their driver's licenses because it's HARD to participate in society and commerce without one. A national ID card would provide all persons with an ID that merchants wouldn't question -- and no need for a driving test. Furthermore, people who know that they're unsafe, incapable drivers would have an alternative to keeping their licenses. This would allow them to avoid the temptation to drive.
"We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
If the Government chooses to keep such information about you, that's fine. I for one would find life much easier if my health records were accessible to every doctor's surgery - when I come home from uni, I have to re-register if I want a doctor's appointment.
Far, far more important that the storage of such data is who is allowed to retrieve it. For example, if there were to be a medical study, you might expect that your health records (relevant parts thereof), gender, age, region and the kind of conurbation you live in (village/town/city etc) were made available, but no personal identifiers.
I find it far more of an invasion of privacy that my telephone and e-mail contacts are abused by people or companies wanting to sell their wares for me. The only reason we might be afraid of a centralised data repository is that it could be hacked. I would contend that, providing appropriate measures are taken, and that photographs are not stored on the database, there is nothing to be afraid of.
Like car accidents, most hardware problems are due to driver error.
A recent survey in the Netherlands however showed some cases where is not used enough. A simple coupling of some databases showed that some ID's were used by up to 100 illegal workers and that some ID holders were being treated in three hospitals simultaneously.
karma police: arrest this man, he talks in maths; he buzzes like a fridge, he's like a detuned radio. [radiohead]
Do you mean they don't take your SSN at the application time, or it just isn't on the card?
The former would be news to me, the later, I am used to (Illinois, and Connecticut)
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
But we also have fairly good regulation on who, when and what can use it. Its not crossreferenced all over so as of today its hard to misuse it. Mostly its used in small database islands that connects their data to the Personal ID, not the other way around. If it does connect the ID to all sorts of data like health, crime, taxes etc then its Orville alright. When used like in sweden its rather harmless unless someone gets access to all the different databases and does an own crossreference..
HTTP/1.1 400
I think that the main threat these systems pose to privacy is not how much data becomes accessible to the government, but how much data becomes accessible to private entities. I remember seeing a story (on CNN?) about a bar somewhere in the US that required everybody who entered to have their drivers license scanned. Through some system the owner could then extract details such as name, gender and address to profile his customers.
I think that these systems pose a far bigger threat to the privacy of the average citizen as the desire of some government to give everybody a unique number to be able to normalize some databases that are only for internal use.
since I'm the Antipop, my number should be 666. Long as they get it right, I'm cool.
... it's about the data. yes, the US has Social Security Numbers. most countries have something similar, if they've managed to stop the killing in the streets. it's just too handy ...
... but in theory, this is supposed to somehow prevent your privacy from being totally breached. bah. it's the government. it already owns you from birth anyway ... if you can't escape laws, why escape identification? ...
... most places would have to rely on a hash of your name (spelling, order, chunks) and birthday (just make sure you give it to them in mm/dd/yyyy if you're in the states, or dd/mm/yyyy elsewhere.) it's already bad enough in databases as it is ... do you -really- want DBA's who don't know what they're doing setting up those constraints?
... and leave a signed slip of paper, often containing your full 16-digit account number -and- expiration date on the table? for one thing, if someone walks off with it ... the restaurant is pissed at you for not paying. and then ... well ... that random person can now buy online, under your name (unless the site happens to required the 3 (sometimes 4?) digit number on the back of the card) or checks your shipping address vociferally.)
... does the lack of numeric primary keys -really- lead to a lack of privacy? i'd say no. if anything, it leads to privacy. with HIPAA (government-enforced medical privacy act) you -may- release information from your medical database to random parties, so long as it is impossible for those random parties to link the data back to actual people. you are allowed, however, to include your own information with it, to help -you- link it back to the original individual if necessary. sequentially-numbered primary keys work quite well for that, and users usually don't even have to notice that records aren't linked by a concatenation of 16 fields involving all sorts of text fields (yes, i had to replace a DB built by an idiot) ... in fact, my users quite enjoyed it! (what? you mean i can change info ... and it won't get confused! oh my!)
... but not the biggest. you should be worried about where that information goes, and who has it ... and why. consider, for example, something you (arguably) have less control over than your records with the U.S. federal government: your credit history. hard to see, hard to interpret ... and a pain to do anything about. why? because they can. and there, it's about money ... (okay, so taxes are money too -- but there's gotta be a difference somewhere ... right?) ... what are you doing that you need privacy for? you make me suspicious ... maybe i should stick some extra cameras on your house. and watch you.
a) in the united states, i believe there is a law the prevents (in theory) different branches of the government from centralizing all of the data they have about you. not that any of you have been checking recently to make -sure- they're not
b) without the use of id numbers guaranteed by the government to be semi-unique (SSN's are not actually unique -- there have been quite a few reported cases of the same SSN being assigned to multiple physical beings at once, even while both were alive. that wasn't supposed to happen, but it did)
c) theft of the id number is a problem. but that's not exactly your government's fault -- the main cases i've known of involve the use of an SSN in the credit arena -- registering for new credit cards, etc. my roommate has, so far, had i think 5 different cases of people opening bank accounts in his name. the dork, however, didn't realize that the bank might use the address linked to the SSN in order to verify the information. the banks called him, and he was able to shutdown the operation before it got expensive.
d) consider theft of other id -- credit card number? doesn't it make you somewhat ancy when you pay with a credit card at a restaurant
so then
so really, grow up. identification is one thing to worry about
there is a way to give back your ssn, ill have to look up the code, but i did infact just read it yesterday. my father is a paralegal and specializes in taxes and social security. Not only can you give back your ssn, he opened a bank account without one. he bought his home without giving a ssn and also has home and auto insurance without a ssn attached to them. http://taxliberator.net is his site, tho not done yet it will be soon, with all of this info on it.
oh yea, and if you dont have an ssn, you arent allowed to pay "income tax" because thats one of the main reasons a SSN is used for.
(It's "quite common to feel uneasy" about being rounded up in railway cars, too, big fellah. Just to let you know.)
Man, we need to get some advice from the government of Japan. A totally secure system. Impressive.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
I have read several posts from people residing in other countries. It seems that, for the most, part all have national ID systems in place. Most have also claimed that this is a workable system and not an invasion of privacy.
My question would be how of these countries have strict laws prohibiting the sale or release of the national ID system information? Most of my concern over a national ID is not with the identification per se, but what could be done with the information later.
The US has had many, many historical abuses of privacy and private information (McCarthy-ism, Hoover's FBI) that raises concerns to the public. These abuses are not long in the past for the US, and make US citizens think twice about the government holding all that information.
And when a Senator is "puchased" by a rich lobby, how long will it be before the information is "for sale" because of legislation?
Give 'em a few years, they'll need more than that...
Secondly, the public ID system in Sweden and Finland works very well because the cultural values are quite different than the U.S. The number itself is public and in general openness is much more valued and abuse of the number will be relatively quickly discovered and dealt with. A specific example would be tax info. For such a system to work in the U.S. tax info would have to enter the public domain like in Sweden. Too many have way too much to hide to allow that to happen.
To go off on a tangent to illustrate the openness, a lot of EU material is ordered from Sweden from UK citizens because freedom of information is part of the culture, having been written as separate article, Offentlighetsprincipen, of the constitution back in 1766. It makes the U.S. freedom of information act look pretty small and pale and tax records are not included. The UK and France have everything default to being closed for 30 years. Given that the life of magnetic tape (not to address the data format) is generally less than 10 years even under optimal storage conditions, this has a lot of ramifications.
Offentlighetsprincipen could have saved the EU quite a lot of embarassement and expenses.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
So, that'd be 100,000,000,000. 100 Billion. They have plenty of room for just a few generations until they either expand or just recycle the numbers.
your name would be for example:
37912331 of 99999999999
1 big happy family
As mentioned in previous (and surely following) posts, this kind of PIN (as in Personal Identification Number) already exists in some form or another in many countries. In fact, I doubt that any country with a social security system can do without such a number.
The danger of these primary keys are not their existence, but the amount of data you can obtain when knowing them. For instance, how much a problem can it be is the social security file contains only your name/birthdate/gender?
Now imagine that you could (and at least here in France, it's technically impossible: even the social security services can't find their way in their own files!) correlate with a given PK the whole life of a person: from is medical history to his credit card log? Here is the real danger!
Fortunatly for us, such a thing is far from achievable for three reasons:
- the different databases are not interconnected, making a correlation a pain in the cheek
- access to some of these databases is restricted, as in "please show me sufficient proof of your identity to access your own information". You'll certainly have more information from news papers archives
- the PK mentionned above is only used in just a few files, all the others mainly indexed on your firstname/lastname. Yeah, regularly someone "dies" in place of someone else...
Add to this the cluelessness of government services regarding technology as a whole, and before they come to know anything about relationnal databases, we'll all be far more controled and filed by RIAA/MPAA and affiliates.
--
Arkan
When I lived there I had an ID card made up with my photo and thumbprint on it, and was supposed to have that with me at all times.
I never heard anyone question those 'foreigner cards'.
Ha Ha Hee Hee Ho Ho
to the funny farm where everthing is beautiful
Get over it, you people have helped to advance this kind of thing.
Just listen to yourselves sometime.
babies
In Nazi Germany, I believe the numbers were tatooed (at least in some cases) on the prisoners. How will these Japanese be "marked" with their number? I didn't see anything in the article about that. But if this number is mandatory and so critical, I wouldn't be suprised to see some sort of "permanent" marking, such as a microchip or barcode.
And if that's the case.. (not to get anyone in a panic or anything) take a look at Revalation chapter 12. Could this be a predecessor? Interesting.
the new system in japan is more than just a number. For as long as i am aware of, people living in japan have had to register with city hall or the local police whenever they move into a city or even move within the same city. City Hall keeps track of this on people's family register -- which includes marriages and births in addition to addresses.
This is true for Japanese as well as foreigners (sort of -- foreigners generally don't get added to family registers in the same way as japanese).
The new computer network includes this personal info plus social insurance (like the US's social security) and national health insurance info. So it is much more than just giving everyone a number -- the network is making a lot of personal info available to bureaucrats all over the country for no really good reason that i can see.
Also, there doesn't seem to have been much discussion at all about it. It was just suddenly in the paper one day that starting in two weeks the new system would start. They try to raise the amount that people pay when they go to the doctor or try to raise the tax on cigarettes, and it is all over the news and everyone complains or at least talks about it. Introduce a system making everyone's private information available on a nationwide network, and no one notices until 2 weeks before it starts. Very weird.
Not until about 1990 or so. But forget a 1099 or W2 and you'll hear from them. (States seem o be faster at this.)
this thing usually comes about when a more detailed picture of what individual citizens do, possibly expanding this to where you go, what you buy...
i wonder who profits from this kind of information...
The problem is of course not the fact that your national government keeps your identity in a database in order to be able to issue passports and drivers licenses and to collect taxes and social insurances.
And neither would I consider it a problem that credit companies decide to share a database containing people with bad debts, as long as there are some good laws governing access to it (e.g. the organization maintaining the database is not allowed to share it with companies that do not have a banking license, and there must be an expiry date).
The problem is that the government's ID number is much too "convenient" for commercial purposes if no restrictions are put on its use, because the state guarantees unicity and life-long validity.
So, the shared use of such a number is the problem, because suddenly all kinds of commercial entities have a means to match their user databases. And if the same unique key can be used on a number of databases, then those databases effectively form a single database.
To prevent that, any democratic government should explicitly forbid the use of national IDs in commercial applications, forcing commercial entities to keep their own databases.
Commercial entities should also be prohibited to share any personal information (that is, anyting uniquely linked to a person) with other entities without explicit, prior consent, where you'd indicate exclusively what information you allow to be shared. That's the only way to prevent them from simply teaming up to set up a private version of the social security number, mandating it for every transaction.
I see no reason why the public would want to help companies to track a person's identity and share it with others. If the government does, it's simply not acting on behalf of the public.
We've got to start giving some counter pressure to those "mark of the beast" plans that are perverted commercial interests masquerading as ways to fight terrorism.
All generalizations are false, including this one. (Mark Twain)
From what I read on the Japanese news sites, the problem is that this is a single nationwide database that will be available online, similar to the one that has been discussed in the recent past in the U.S. There's a great deal of concern about network hacking and identity theft.
From an article on the issue: People say "Well, the US already has this in their Social Security number"... but a SS# is only part of the formula. To really do damage to someone the way the U.S. system operates, you need a few more pieces of information, like a driver's license number, bank account information, etc. Thankfully, the "American way" is to build your own system if you don't like someone else's (or even if you do like it, but want the credit for yourself), so there's a lot of gridlock and problems with getting data from one point to another between various state and national gov't agencies.
Imagine how much identity theft would occur in the U.S. if there was one single database available online with all of this information, considering what OS the gov't would likely use to run such a database.
Also, Japanese citizens already carry "resident cards". Ths is a similar concept to someone from the U.S. already having a SS# - why would they want or need ANOTHER government sponsored ID card? It's just another system where personal information can be stored and possibly accessed by someone that's not supposed to have it. Add to that the natural reluctance to having any government agency "keeping an eye" on them, and you can see the reason for the concern.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
i've got moderator privileges ... can i not mark this entire article as trollbait (-1)? damn it ...
This is the major trick for "eliminating debt" if you ever click-though those spam mails. Credit companies "lose you" when the number is changed.
> name, address, date of birth, gender
What does it have to do with privacy?
On a paranoia side I could see the risks. Given that now they are implementing this system with all the abundant technology out there to exploit it. When our- the American system was made there where not so many intense DB's and the sort out there. Hell most government agencies can't talk to each other let alone track some one decently. I think the trouble will be with a powerful DB already up and ready to use this information which should also make data mining a bit easier than now.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
One example of how it used differently is in credit bureaux (which is where I came across it when we were developing one for a Kuwaiti bank). In the UK, when you apply for a loan, you give them your name and address, and this information is sent to the credit bureau to attempt to find your details. In Kuwait, you give them your PACI number, and the credit bureau will connect into the PACI database to retrieve any information that is wanted.
Any system that wants to uniquely identify someone can just store this number, and rely on the PACI system to get the person's current address.
In normal use, this is very sensible thing. You need to tell one place that you've moved. Everyone else's system will automatically be updated. However, when Kuwait was invaded, it became an extremely useful tool to track down anyone that the Iraqis were after.
Someone might have tapped into this earlier, but identity theft flurishes here in the U.S. because our SSN is arbitrarily assigned and is used for everything. How can something so insecure control so much? We allowed it. The SSN was originally meant to be just a number to be used exclusively by the social security administration. In fact, it was illegal to use it for anything else. As time passed, the restriction was lifted. The military started using it for ID, and financial sector started using the SSN for more that social security reasons. Yet, the fundemental flaw still exists.
If the U.S. is to have a national ID, it must be tied to the person better than simple assignment. Biometrics seem to be the way to go. Even a simple encoding of a person's physical properties is much better than no security at all. However, for ultimate security, stuff like fingerprints and retinal information, is necessary. Even though I do have the privacy concerns, the SSN is not much better in protecting my privacy.
All in all, if the U.S. is going to do it, I'd rather have them do it right the first time.
Coderz 4 Life
I'm living in the UK where there is currently a massive stink about proposed national ID schemes. It got me thinking about South Africa's 'ID numbers'
For as long as I can remember, every SA citizen has an ID number and an ID book containing photo-ID. It is not compulsory to carry it, except that it used to have your drivers license in it and it was compulsory to carry your license when driving.
Now that card-licenses have been introduced, this is not a requirement.
The ID book must be presented when doing things like opening bank accounts, applying for jobs, passports, renting an apartment etc. The number must be quoted on most offical correspondence.
This has not resulted in massive abuses of privacy - all it does is ensure legitimate identification when necessary without resorting to the laborious UK system of 'bring in a photo ID like a staff card or something plus 2 or more bills containing your name and permanent address' when trying to do something as simple as open a bank account.
So if there is an error in your records, you have to do all the work to correct it.
If the bank, doctor, insurance company, supermarket thinks something bad about you, you have to find out about it, find out how to complain, explain your reasons for complaining etc.
Most people don't do this unless its a serious matter like being refused credit. But in fact the price you are quoted by a vendor can be affected by what they know, or think they know. Having the ability to recognise you by a unique ID gives a lot of power to companies and they are not slow to use it. This is probably not illegal, or even immoral, but if I am forced to negotiate with someone for purchase of a product or service, I don't want them to have an armlock on me before I start.
I would like to decide how much I tell them about myself, and when to tell it, not the other way round.
[...]
Now this is the beginning of activation for Japan's national ID systems: 11
digit number national ID, networked resident record system based on the ID
numbers, and national ID card that based on contactless radio transaction
smartcard, with 32 bit CPU and co-processor supposed to handle crypto and
digital signature, which will be issued from 2003.
This status makes computer security specialists worried. If organized
crimes or foreign spy agents get access to one of these, that could be a
disaster. Clear and present danger is here now. World class crackers might
be difficult to ignore temptations to try their penetration skills on this
network because it is built on Windows NT/2000 servers and possibly MS SQL.
You got the idea?
[...]
my bold emphasis (as if you needed it)
Taken from Politech.
Amazing ay?
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
In South Africa we've had an ID system running ever since I can remember. Where ever any form of identification is required, loan applications, age verification etc. you have to produce your ID document. In the past your drivers license was in this same ID book, forcing you to carry the thing with you the whole time, what a schlep!
Luckilly a couple of years ago they implemented Drivers License Cards (Credit Card like) which makes carrying it with you the whole time a lot easier.
Japan Launches ID Network Amid 'Big Brother' Angst
They have that crappy TV show in Japan too?
Firstly, we have a National Insurance (NI) Number which is equivalent to the US SSN and is used to track your income tax and NI (payroll tax) payments. You don't need one to work, but it makes employed life a lot easier.
Getting an NI number if you're not born here can be difficult. My girlfriend is an EU citizen living in the UK (nearly 2 years) now and stil can't persaude the social security people to give her one. She recently had a letter from the Inland Revenue (IRS-equiv) asking her for her NI number so they can make sure her income tax and NI is correctly accounted for.
<sigh> well at least it shows that Big Brother will always be defeated by good old fashioned British incompetence.
The other ID number we have is the National Health Service (NHS) number. This you get at birth or, if you're not British-born but legally resident, on registration with your local doctor. My girlfriend had no trouble at all getting one - she just presented her EU passport at the surgery and stated that she was living in the area and wanted to register with a doctor, they wrote down the passport details and her new NHS card turned up with mine (you get a new one whenever you change doctor).
Originally a continuation of the old wartime ID card number scheme (ID cards were abolished in 1952) they appear to have changed the NHS numbers recently to a new series - when we moved to London two years ago I got a brand new NHS number in a new format. It appears to bear no relation to my NI number and the govt doesn't, yet, officially do data matching between the two.
I guess that is a fair fear, given that from what you hear from US citizens, the US is, for all the talk about the land of the free, one of the most non-free, controlled countries apart from actual dictatorships. I don't know if that is so, but it sure sounds like it when they talk about it.
Well, anyhow, if you live in fear of your own government, isn't it time to do something about it?
I can assure you, that at least over here, citizens and business both almost only benefit from being registered, as many other have pointed out. The only thing that is bad for you that I can come up with, is that businesses and landlords etc. will know if you are a fuck-up with lots of debts, which if you think of it, also really is a good thing for the most part. Meaning that ppl that pay their way get to rent the apts and buy the stereos, and stores have less problem getting their cash for the things they sell. It is possible they are a bit too harsh though on that part (one strike and you are gone for a few years, economically - that sucks), and need to lighten up - but the thought is, I guess, good.
If you are a citizen of a country wouldn't the goverment of that country have the right to keep track of it's citizens??
If you don't want the goverment you elected (hopefully) to know who you are what right do you have to be a citizen??
Like another post a live in Sweden where everybody have a unique ID given to them at birth. But I guess if you don't want the goverment to know how you are then you got something to hide. Or? If you don't trust your goverment then elect a new one. You all live in democraties right?
I mean this is something that could make so much of life easier. There are people you want to know who you are and to only have one number or card to present that is in the same format in my home state as it is when I visit another, damn! And think of writing software. No more screwing with 50 different formats for a drivers license. Ya'll get too worried about this like this is a nazi state. It aint. It may be fast approaching a socialist state due to Democrat plans, but... As long as it isn't abuse, it would be great. The gov't could regulate it's use.
OMG!! The MAN knows my name! The people who issued me a social security number and a birth certificate and whom I pay taxes to!
The birth certificate of course already includes my name, gender and date of birth.
The tax form, of course, involves giving them my address.
So, now they've taken a bunch of information I was already giving them and put it in a central repository and assigned a number (called a KEY! sound scary, doesn't it!) to each record.
So, now I can use that number.
OMG! What is they find me! What if the government that is run by and for the people that I take part in in this great democracy knows my name and address! Maybe they'll come for me next!!
Get a grip people,
Justin Dubs
Yes, this is almost as frightening as the v-chip! also suspect that the UN is trying to invade US with Russian troops (hidden under Detroit), with alien assistance.
These are really serious matters.
The real question is, Is this going to affect my ability to purchase spicy tuna rolls?
Every time someone mentions identity numbers, the YRO group gets up and slits their wrists. Why? Like it or not, you are identified every day but several numbers that you don't argue about, and probably have less control over.
Let's start with the basics. Every country needs a central population register. If it doesn't have one, it can't recognise its citizens and afford them their rights; or take action to protect itself against illegal immigrants; or issue you with a passport. At the very least that system has your legal name (at birth) and your date of birth. Without an entry in that system you can't prove your age or citizenship.
Now, as every database expert should know, full name and birth date do not have to be unique within a population. Therefore this "database" will include a unique number for every person. Even if its not given to you or used somewhere, you still have an identity number.
Now let's look at the implications of using that number outside the system. First, you have a card which can be used for identification purposes. This has good and bad points. It can be used to secure your transactions (prevent fraud against you), but also to link you with a transaction (reducing privacy). The better the security system of the card, the more difficult it is to forge, and the better the trade-off.
The ID card also serves to verify age. This is pretty important. How do you *know* she is 16? How does a bank know you are old enough to have a credit card? Many establishments that require age verification use a credit card or driver's license, but just because you are of the legal age to obtain one of these doesn't mean you actually have one. Not to mention that the legal age for driving is different in various parts of the world, and in many places you can get a credit card at any age if your parents sign surety.
What about SSNs? They are commonly used for a variety of identification purposes, but are a very poor choice for this! Knowing an SSN is a direct route to being able to abuse an SSN (in most countries) -- it is a number you NEED to keep private, but the lack of a unified identification system often prevents that from happening.
The lack of an ID card doesn't prevent the linking up of various disparate systems. In fact, most of these systems have poor design from a privacy standpoint, as they never had it in mind. You bank WILL know your SSN, drivers license, name, home address, and preferred make of condoms if it wants to. An ID system does not make this any more or less difficult.
So what's the BAD part about mandatory ID cards? The government and/or industry may enact policies that require positive identification at a time when such identification should not be needed. And that is what privacy legislation is there to ensure does not happen.
I, for one, like the fact that I have an identity card which is REQUIRED (by law) to be produced in any interactions with the government for the purposes obtaining passports, etc, or when opening accounts with a bank. It requires a fair amount of effort to fraudulently open an account in my name or otherwise impersonate me, and electronically secured (i.e. digitally signed) ID cards will make that more difficult in the future.
On the other hand, I don't give my ID number out to people or institutions who don't require it. I am aware of the privacy implications of having that number, even if there is no publically accessible means of misusing it.
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
In Iceland a unique ID system has been in operation for decades. First we had a SSN a'la US ( eight digits 1234-5678 ) which was discontinued in the eighties because the checksums didn't allow for enough combinations to fill the quota of 250.000 inhabitants. Numbers were re-assigned too soon after someone died. Todays system is based on the system the scandinavian countries are using. ddmmyy-ccga ( a child born today could get 050802-ccg0, where c1 is a checksum filler, and c2 is the mod 11 remainder. g is the gender, but also a part of the checksum system. Odd number = male, even = female ). Coupled into this is a national database, storing ID, name, your registered address, your marital status, who are your parents, who are your children, wether this information may be used for snail-spam ( we have a legal opt-out system ) and probably lots of other information. The banking system has its own database with all and every financial information on a persion that ever could be informative or important to the banks. Big brother will be watching ? Nah.. he's already watching :)
I'm more than used to the idea of an ID system...all Military members and dependents (myself) have an Identification card used to get on Post, buy things at the Commissary, get a job, etc. I haven't found it to be annoying, sometimes it's nice to just show one ID that has pretty much any info someone could want, like my SSN, Date of Birth, Age, Weight, my photo, etc. I think it'd be great to expand the system nationwide, and so far the gov't has failed to abuse the fact that they already have me ID'd.
They numbers do provide a convenient way to check someones identity. But, of course, you could argue that someone (Big Brother) could use this number to get all sorts of information about a individual. And as many of the swedish government records are public this is not very hard to do.
But generally this it not considered a problem and the numbers provide so many benefits that people are willing to accept this system even though it could be a potential threat to personal integrity.
Maybe the reason swedish citizens don't object to this system is that we have been registered for centurys by the church. You can go back as a far as the 17th century (most records still exists and have been microfilmed) and look up information such as date and place of birth, siblings and ancestors.
By the way, our 'personal numbers' are made up by your birth year, birth month and day of birth. Then you have a control number. So in my case it's 821215-xxxx
Other than the fact that its about a national ID card, this is Japan we are talking about. The fact that municipalities are holding out is interesting. From a sociological point though Japanese people will avoid conflict/standing out. I doubt the minority will hold out very long. In other societies this will be a very different, I really hope at least.
My anon. cowardly 2 cents...
(or am I to lazy to reg)
What's important to Americans isn't privacy.
It's the illusion of privacy.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that between names, addresses, social security numbers, credit cards, drivers licenses, and hosts of other identification methods, tracking someone isn't very difficult. You match up the information on their tax forms with the information from their credit card purchases with the information at various country offices and you're pretty much good to go.
It's like the lock on your car door. People lock their car doors because it makes them feel secure. But if they lock the keys in their car, they know they can call a locksmith and he'll have that door open in 60 seconds. What they don't think about (and what they don't want to think about) is that if a locksmith can open it up in 60 seconds then a good theif can do it in half the time, especially as the code required to make a new key is right there in plain sight.
For now Americans have the illusion of privacy. It makes them happy and it makes the job of those people who would gather information about them easier.
No Zen is good zen
But who's accessing to my numbers and for what purposes.
We already have id cards, tax codes, social security numbers etc.
I would not be scared if my government (I'm not Japanese nor American, but my govt too is on the way) adds one more number to identify me, but I'd really be pissed of if someone used it to harm me.
From my point of view a government doesn't deserve more trust than the people it's made of. - Men fail.
Thus the real questions should be: Are we able to prevent wrong accesses to our personal data?
If no, is complaining about identification adoption the right thing, or should we rather do something to give power only to trustworthy people?
I'm seeing quite a few threads about Americans being "paranoid" about the whole identified by a number thing.
Well, old habits die hard. Look at the courts in any Western country and you'll see influences (and often everyday terms) that are thousands of years old (Rome anyone?).
To be direct, America was founded by Protestants. It may not reflect that today (I'm about as far from Puritan as you can get) the undercurrent still permeates the culture. There's a nasty stigma on pornography, the "Protestant work ethic" is still alive and well, and--due to some passages in Revelations--people object with religious fervor to being identified by a "number of the beast" if you will; even if they don't realise why...
I think Mauve has the most RAM. --PHB (Dilbert Comic)
Everything starts out somewhat justifiably, but when the laws are passed to give those in government that power, you see the true color of those people in power. Yes, there are potential advantages to such a system - all activities will then be monitored. But this is also a *VERY* risky thing to just sign off on.
The problem comes in when the government starts requiring that number for essential livelihood, and monitoring all activities pertaining to every person in every activity. That gives them too much power. Power corrupts. Trust me. Look at history. Someday, when they make laws that are unfair, or against the rights of the individual (and trust me again, there are many that ARE out to get you, and are lobbying the government heavily to do so), enforcing these laws will become trivial, and attempting to reject them will be life-threatening. It would be naive to think that there isn't a lot to protect or lose, a lot of liberty in jeopardy, when the most powerful forces are so desperate to push such legislation. And it would be naive to think that the government is always working in the interest of the common man, and always on your side. (This is probably the most important point - That government itself is frequently untrustworthy.)
Take it or leave it. The future itself is in jeopardy. Beware what you are complacent about, who you vote for, and what you sign off on. A word is enough for the wise.
A single number won't cut it. I will need my own class C subnet for all the implants I'll have by the time it passes through congress. I guess my nanobots can be behind a masquarading firewall. :)
They should be fine with 11 digits for awhile...they just have to use positive and negative numbers...
Wake up, the CPR or Central Personal Number has been around a long time In Denmark we got the system in the 70, with the help of IBM, funny story About that was that tapes was send to the US every week to be sorted, no computer System in Denmark was able to do the Job. My comment, Oh, yes you don't loose You privacy because of a number, but if there is no gov. control and its all up to The trustworthy big bizz of the US, or other country's to set the rules you might Opt for not getting the number
The post was "tongue in cheek" but since the point was raised, let's say 5 minutes for three paragraphs. 1 million people every 5 minutes.
That's 288,000,000 people per day.
In 347.2 days there would be 100,000,000,000.
I hold a US passport. Why can't that be a national ID?
A user posted above that his kids were "required" to have a social security number when they were born. They are NOT. You have to tell them "no" THREE times and they will no longer try to con you into participating in the social security program. The only people REQUIRED to have a social security number (income tax) are foriegn citizens (ie people with green cards) and people with income coming from a foriegn country.
e y/. mindspring.com/freedom/g roup/DanMeador/
Here are some links for you:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PersonalOdyss
http://www.cjmciver.org/
http://bradbva.home
http://groups.yahoo.com/
so your health records are linked to it too?
are there protections in place to stop companies obtaining this information? insurance companies, for instance. or how about, your prospective employer does a search on this information. sees, for instance, that you are HIV positive. and denies you the job on this ground.
The problem is that any _new_ system of this type is exactly that, new, and it is better to be vigilant when this sort of thing comes along. Who makes the rules? What is their motive?
If done well, it can be a good system. if done badly, it can be a huge threat to personal freedom, and perhaps unwilling and uncontrollable discolsure of sensitive information.
david
The "big deal" w.r.t. national IDs is not that the government uses it for tax and census purposes. The problem is when commercial entities are allowed free and unrestricted use of such numbers for their internal records. Even the government can't require you to provide your SSN, because it wasn't originally designed for authentication purposes. (Check out the SSN faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/privacy/ssn-faq/index.htm l)
If commercial entities can be guaranteed unique identification of every person in the US, and can be virtually guaranteed correlation of that ID to the wealth of free information in the public record, then it will only be months - a few years maybe - before commercial entites can have total access to your entire life and purchase history. Imagine calling up Time Warner to complain about your cable bill, and knowing that the lady on the other end can see every grocery and gas station purchase you've ever made at the press of a button.
A bit extreme, perhaps, but i have no doubt that given the opportunity, corporations will not hesitate to make use of the information if it benefits them in even the slightest way.
Seriously, let's say the MIBs wanted a database of everyone who lives in the US.
I can safely assume that:
1. They have access to all FBI databases
2. They have access to all driver license databases
3. They have access to all voter reg databases
4. They probably can get access to all credit card and credit bureau databases, either whitehat or blackhat.
That right there should already cover a large chunk of american people. And, best of all, they wouldn't have to tell anyone.
Maybe it's better for this whole thing to be out in the open, where you can review it and there is accountability.
Finally, I may be missing the point, but why do people feel so upset about a national id? I mean, we already have a SSN which identifies us uniquely nationally. If I were to get the national ID and in the process give up my SS card and Driver License, that's one less piece of paper I need to worry about. I don't see myself as losing or gaining anything.
Someone please mod this parent up. It summarizes the whole issue perfectly.
The problem (or potental problem) is that how do you assure that 1)the information is safe (from hackers,crackers,id thieves, goverment officals), 2)that it won't be used for evil (for example Nazis or the Soviet Union) and 3)that only the proper (read: legally held responsible ones) people have access to your data. I feel fear everytime I hear about this crap (even though it is currently in place anyway), because I don't want my local librarian or grocery store, knowing if I have an STD or I'm gay or I'm a smoker, or I'm a buddist or I'm a Christian or I'm overdrawn or I'm divorced, etc etc.
Americans for all their bitching, know that freedom is easy to lose (even though they passed the Goddamned USAPA). And even harder to get back. And you are also talking about some of the more enlightened ones (those that read slashdot), as they think about these things and understand the technology involved.
I have some questions for those in countries with national ids....Would you feel safe if you we in the Unpopular minority of your country? Do you think that that national registry, would protect you if they suddenly declared all (insert your favorite minority here) to be evil and must be cleansed from the earth for the good of your country?.....people rarely want to think scary thoughts.
Secure multi-mediation is the future of all webbing...
Except DLs are state and not national. In SC out licenses have our info printed on then and then on the magnetic strip and in a barcode type thing for good measure. They're trying to add fingerprint too.
This is all standard. What isn't is that they tried (a couple of years ago) to sell the whole database to an company from another state. It was supposed to be used in some sort of uber fraud prevention system. The outcry was so great that the plan was scrapped, but there's no telling how much info got released before then. Even more interesting was the "donation" this company had recieved from the NSA.Even if the govt doesnt cross reference all that info out there themselves, there's plenty of companies that would gladly get into that business if allowed. I'm more concerned about the privacy implications of these people than the government themselves.
Who doesn't know someone who has been screwed by one of these spy *cough*, I mean, credit bureaus? It will only get worse. There is little hope for privacy or any other freedoms in this decade.Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
In Canada you have to have a SIN number to work.
It is used to track taxes, however unless someone pays you money they are basically not permitted to even ask for the number.
Side point is that they are starting to use tax records to help keep the voting lists up to date.
ID != !Privacy
When will USA folks understand that they have some of the worst society wrt. privacy, while some countries with mandatory (or close to mandatory) IDs manage to offer privacy to their citizens ?
There is an underlying hate of all things government-related that is counter-productive. Instead of corrupt governments (something that advanced countries do fight against), you get ruled by companies (which are corrupt by law).
In Iceland this is nothing new. We call it kennitala, which means the same as identification number. Before that we had a system similar to SSN where each citizen had an eight digit number assigned to him. The new number scheme is simple, you have a 10 digit code, where the first 6 digits are your birthdate, and the last four are randomly assigned to you, to prevent any two from having the same kennitala. Works wonders here, and I wouldn't like to go back to the old scheme...
They take baths. In public. With strangers.
;-)
Do the Japanese really have any expectation of privacy after that?
Japan is no longer a democracy.
Japan's government said that the Revised Basic Resident Register Law
becomes effective only if the Privacy Protection Law is established.
But Governmental ID System is launched, although the law havn't been
established yet.
Anyway, the Privacy-Protection legislation is, in fact, just the
contrary. The legislation gives Japan's government to use personal
information with no restriction.
To make things worse, Shintaro Ishihara, the last fascist in Japan,
is considered to become Japan's next prime minister. He believes
that World War II was Japan's holy war, distorts historical facts
and denies their war responsibility and democracy.
must ... have ... video ...
Several South American countries have already used a national ID system for decades..it's called "Cedula de Identidad" which basically translates to "Identification Card". As far as I know, no one seems to think these ID cards are a threat or problem.
Well, we all know that this kind of ID already exists in many countries, and is called SS#.
Alright.
Now here's some food for thought:
In some countries (well, only one that I know of), storing personal information in a database is strictly regulated: among other things, you are NOT allowed to use a person's SS# as a database key.
And it works. Banks, insurance companies, etc, can drool over people SS#, but they just plain can't use it (unless they want to be in a lot of trouble -- that country seems to be less bigcorp-friendly than the U.S.).
This may or may not work in the U.S., but it's still an interesting thing to ponder, I think.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
Considering that the Danish CPR is operated by a foreign company (according to some, usually untrustworthy sources, actually a NSA subsidiary) there are limits to my trust in the CPR. But as long as you are aware of which data are stored in the register and what it is possible (not necessarily legal) to do with it, you should be able to live with it.
And I don't know if I really trust the Faroese counterpart to CPR more, even though it is operated by a company, which is partially owned by the government.
Atheism is a non-prophet organisation.
In .dk, we've had a national ID for a long time now. Just like the SSN, it's being used as an ID number for a number of other things. However, instead of saying "You don't *have* to have an ID", we have strict laws on what the government and companies can do with databases, in particular restricting merging of dbs. Which model do you think is better at preventing abuse?
-Lars
> are there protections in place to stop
> companies obtaining this information?
Yep: it's just plain illegal. In a country where bigcorps don't have it as easy as in the U.S., it works very well.
I've lived in Denmark a while back, and they're socially well ahead of most other countries. It could be extremely profitable to admit that we're lagging behind, and try and see what they do well, and how. Instead of, say, assuming that because they don't do like us, it is 'bad'.
-- B.
This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
OK, I'm going to show my ignorance here...
Are public keys unique? Could we not have a system where people's ID numbers are actually their public keys?
flame away for my lack of knowledge about encryption technology...
He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send your fingerprints off to Washington."
National IDs are a great idea. It's inevidble that the government is going to put us in databases, so why not have a little bit of organization. SSNs are terrbile, because there's only one layer of protection, somthing you know. For a system to be secure, you should have:
- Something you know (a PIN #)
- Something you have (smartcards would be good)
- Something you are (biometrics...iris/fingerprint scans)
If we could have that, then at least the government would be spying on me, instead of someone pretending to be me.
Americans are a funny breed. They get up in arms about national ID numbers, when they've already had them for generations: just try getting a job without a Soc. Security number, and *technically* a landlord can't ask for it, but if you refuse the landlord will find some other tenant more 'suitable.'
Back when there was the big bru-ha-ha about Goldberg breaking the Netscape https encryption, I related the story to a friend in England and he laughed. "Why on Earth do you people in North America care about 56bit or 128bit encryption for your ecommerce, when you are quite willing to give your credit card number over the telephone to order a pizza?"
I have lived in Japan for more than a decade. When I got my residence status I was fingerprinted and issued an Alien Registration card (known amongst expats at the gaijin card). It has number on it tied into the immigration database. The gaijin card is the foreigners' equivalent for the the Japanese koseki, or family register.
The koseki is kept at the local city hall but it might as well be a national ID because tax records and residency are all tied to it. Basically it is impossible to take up residence, change your address, open a bank account, file a tax return, get national health insurance, or get a full-time job without your koseki (or, if you are a foreigner, your gaijin card).
The police routinely call door-to-door collecting census-like information on every individual in the household because legally, the don't have access to the koseki. These police dossiers are filled with all kinds of tidbits about residents in their precincts, such as the the times that they put out the garbage outside of the designated two-hour window (6:30 to 8:30 am). Or the neighbors' descriptions of that woman that was seen going into Mr. Tanaka's apartment at 8 PM and coming out the next morning. Remember? the woman says to the police officer That was when his wife was away with the kids visiting her parents.
Laws notwithstanding, the police routinely (but informally) get access to koseki data when they have a specific agenda. Actually, anyone can get that information. A private investigator can get you a photocopy of anyone's koseki in 24 hours. And it is a booming business. Ditto for foreign registration.
When I filed my foreign registration I read something in English that said that the information supplied was confidential and that the police did not have access to it without a warrant. Moot! Such laws are seldom (if ever) enforced and often broken. I have firsthand experience with this. The police came to my door asking about a criminal suspect (another foreigner). The had found my business card in his personal belongings when they arrested him so I had to go to the police station to make a statement. At the station I saw my own dossier. It was almost 2 cm thick and included a copy my alien registration, mug-shot and finger print I had supplied to the foreign registration office. It also contains photocopies of my credit cards, health-insurance, hospital registration cards, passport and a handful of business cards of people I had met. They managed to get all this the time I lost my handbag which was later turned in to the police.
Now I know you are thinking that I must be some kind of trouble maker, but I assure you that I am only atypical in the fact that I lead a lower profile than many foreigners. I am carefully about not making too much noise and disturbing the neighbors and I am courteous to both the police and to immigration authorities. I basically give them what they ask for when they ask for it. I have never been arrested and I have never been a criminal suspect (to my knowledge). In this particular case of my being asked to make a statement, my only crime was possible associate of the accused. At any rate, I have heard several firsthand accounts by other foreigners about them seeing their own dossiers. They report essentially the same thing. In those cases, the most common reason for being at the police station is that they were spot-checked and found not to be carrying their gaijin card (which we must do by law). (I have been spot-checked once but I had my card.)
Now, the routine fingerprinting of foreigner has been abolished and the records supposedly destroyed, but that law only applies to city hall records. That law doesn't cover my dossier because officially it doesn't exist.
So does all this lack of privacy bother me? No, because I have a good life in Japan and I am treated well by the police, immigration and the people in my community. It doesn't bother the average Japanese either. They grew up with the police routinely coming to the door for an update on their own household and to hear the latest gossip on the neighbors. To them, it is just the police doing their job. True, I have to be careful not to break any serious laws and I have to be discreet about females coming and going from my home (not because of the police but because of the gossip value in the neighborhood).
So is the national ID number going to hurt privacy? The rhetorical question is what privacy? Most Japanese don't have the same conception of privacy that westerners do, anyway. The ones that protest the national ID system don't really understand it. Least of all they don't understand that such a system isn't going to replace the koseki system. Karel van Wolveren calls Japan a police state. The average citizen simply accepts it as another means for the authorities to serve and protect.
Of course most Americans don't have a clue how few rights they have either, let alone the right to privacy. They only difference between Japan and The United States is the measuring stick. And there is also a difference between having privacy and having a right to any of it.
This is not a big deal. Its when they tag us like wild animals and track our movements that I will resist.
More important than invading your privacy, the ID number is used as a tax identification number. Tax avoidance and evasion cost welfare states money and in turn cost the politicians votes. Most European countries have a far higher degree of socialism than the U.S. and thus do whatever they can to keep track of their citizens' financial dealings. The U.S. has been playing catchup for quite some time. In the U.S. the national ID will be sold to us as a way to prevent terrorism. In reality it will be a way to collect more tax.
Stuart Eichert
It seems like most slashdotters are programmers that don't know much about privacy except few ones like Guppy06.
Each department/company/organisation should identify you with a different number/tag, because this makes more difficult to trace everything you've done, without causing problems to normal activities.
If it is not NECESSARY, it should not be.
You know, it doesn't have to be this way. We could fund the national government with a sales tax instead of an income tax. They could just collect all that money anyway, without having to know where we live, work, how much we make, our marital status, etc. etc.
I mean, if you're going to go through an upheaval, you may as well, er, upheave in the freedom direction ...
have had national ID cards for ages!
might I mention that those using modern languages and runtime environments don't need to release memory
Might I mention that on limited hardware designed to be inexpensive and run off batteries (such as a PDA or a handheld game console), just starting such runtime environments would cause an "out of memory" error?
(realizes he has potentially strayed into an offtopic flamewar about garbage collection, and makes a pitiful attempt to bring it back on topic)
Well, do you really need a national ID card just to get curbside trash collection service?
Will I retire or break 10K?
This story and most comments seem to equate 'privacy' with 'anonymity'. That is not the case, however. In fact, the distinction between them is a true measure of privacy. In the US, companies are using your personal information for their own purposes and it is hard to stop them sometimes. With all the credit cards, SSN, taxpayer ID number, drivers license etc etc information out there leaving a trail of you, Americans should be more concerned about how that information is used. The companies or the govn't have little trouble identifying you uniquely as it is, it just takes them some time. Having a single unique ID#, would facilitate this necessary process. Americans should concentrate on legislation on how personal information can be used and accessed.
For instance, like mentioned elsewhere, Sweden has had a unique ID for quite some time (50+ years). But there is also a very strict legislation on how this data can be used. You can always request to see your own records from all databases, save the security police (CIA). The government cannot use the data to find out who lives on social welfare but still drives expensive cars and boats, and thus might be receiving welfare on the wrong basis.
I'm certain that it is more crucial that legislation regarding our personal data is crucial for privacy, rather than obstructing a single unique ID over the plethora of IDs we now have in America.
Oh, I can't help quoting you because everything that you said rings true
Even Japaneese have finally realized that they need a personal ID. Them japs all look the same damnit!
My problem with all ideas like this is that there's a great tradition, at least in America, of the fresh start. Since the first Puritans hit the shore after longstanding poor relationships with their previous neighbors in England, we've been a group of people who've always felt that if we'd completely made a fool of ourselves where we were we could always pick up & go somewhere else. Give it another go without all the baggage of history.
Of course, I'm not talking about dodging your bad credit or anything illegal -- just going off to somewhere like Seattle, where the weather's different, the names of the streets are strange, nobody knows who you are or where you're from, and you can be, not who you'd like to pretend to be, but who you really are because you're unencumbered of the weight of your past transgressions. What's wrong with that?
Well, I guess for some in gov't, quite a bit. If we ever get an ID here, I think by far the worst aspect of it would be the destruction of this element in American life. Everything you've done -- every traffic ticket, every place you've lived, every bad job you quit after a few months -- will be easily available to anyone with a decent excuse for looking. You'll no longer be able to erase all that history if you like -- you'll have to carry it around with you, with all of us. I believe it'll drag on us and make us a less vital, less industrial country where your past is examined in detail before decisions are made about you. And eventually it's back to the old days of 18th century Europe, where you were denied a position or place amongst friends because of who your family is, or was.
All in all, the fact that we forget things and fragments of history get lost in the swirl of day-to-day living -- that's a good thing. It lets us live now, not 20 years ago when we were young & irresponsible. I'd really like to keep that part of our lives.
The only tool you've got against psychosis is experience.
Of course the people will need to have this number tattood on their body or implanted in a chip. Heaven forbit they should use the incredibly advanced technology called printing and force people to walk around having a *gasp* CARD on them.
the cable TV has enough channels, the
house has enough rooms and the
neighborhood has enough McDs...
Considered harmful.
The URL you gave [to a site about the Danish Central Person Registry] is ASP hosted on IIS. Additionally, I was unable to access the website using NetScape.
That's funny; I had no problem with Mozilla build 2002070908, which is nearly the same codebase as Netscape 7.0. I looked at the JavaScript code, and it looked like it tested for document.layers (NS4), document.all (IE4), and document.getElementByID (IE5.5/Mozilla) and built a workaround layer above all three APIs.
Will I retire or break 10K?
- EU-member-state-X has had a national ID system in effect for years. The government has the ability to know where I am, what I'm doing there and who I'm doing it with.
- I have no complains and I haven't heard of any either
My God! Don't you see the possible relation between those two statements? Are you that blind? Here, let me pull up an analogy that's sure to piss you off enough to get your attention:- The German government established an identification system for all Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc. so that they could know where they are, what they're doing there and who they're doing it with
- Nobody knew of any complaints
Before you can make a complaint about something you need to be in a situation where you are comfortable to make that complaint. And you just can't make a complaint when you have to fight to be heard over the din of "Four legs good, two legs bad!"Do you think my little Orwellian metaphor is too harsh? Take a look at all the posts here that have been modded up to 5 that are in support of the ID system. You'll see words like "ridiculous," "ludicrous," "silly," "short-sighted," and any number of other words and phrases that indicate just how little credence the authors of those posts are giving to the system's detractors.
I could go on and on about the numerous policies and practices in the EU that scare me, but instead I'll just leave you with this thought: French voters handily abandoned their individual choices for the French president to support a man like Chirac (a man that can make Berlusconi seem downright respectable), all becuase some right-wing looney managed to scrape together a mere 20% of the vote. A victory for a democratic Europe, or a victory of the majority in crushing minority dissidence?
UK! You're the last bastion of sanity over there! Get out while you still can!
The beginning end of privacy in Japan started the day the first human set foot there.
"Except DLs are state and not national." That is where the problem comes from. It's the same here in Canada, drivers licenses are provinvial. The problem is that when you move to a different province and get a new DL, it isn't linked to the old one. No big deal most of the time, but I moved to a different province for the summer and had to change my license so they could do a criminal records check. They use your drivers license to do this, and it has to be a license with your local address on it. So I get the new license and go get the CRC done. But since they use the DL, and it wasn't linked to the old one, the CRC is completely useless. I don't have anything to hide, but if I was? With a national ID system, it would be impossible for these situations to occur.
You see, the system is in a large underground cave, surrounded by orange goo and protected by three hulking humanoid cybernetic robots.
And they have a penguin.
Government Personal Info. and Commercial Personal Info. are two seperate things. Your Government personal info. shows up on a Govt. screen when you are paying taxes, buying licenses, accessing govt. resources, during census data analysis and when you are breaking the law. Your Commercial Personal Info is accessed every time you make a transaction or someone want to make some money of you or your info.
:)
Worrying about the Govt. misusing your data is like worrying about asteroids hitting your house. Very long odds (in most of the world, anyway), but it could and has happened. Worrying about the Commercial world misusing your data is like worrying your next car crash. You can do a lot to deter and defer it, but It's coming; you just don't know when. I think most of you guys are worrying about the *wrong* Big Bro'.
Just don't spend any money and you'll be fine.
Thank you!
-Fantastic Lad
Hair: black
Eyes: dark brown
Light build, thin eyes. May be carrying cell phones and a variety of cameras and camcorders.
A little quiet, very polite.
Good with math.
zapfie? Is that [derived from] your name? Just wondering, because my last name is Zapf.
DNI (Documento nacional de identidad, or national identification document) has been used in spain for more than 40 years (and maybe more).
It has an 8-digit number followed by a letter (calculated with a very simple algorithm). It contains your name, 1st and 2nd surname. Date and place of birth, parent's name and your last known adress. Its mandatory to everybody older than 14.
You use your id-number for SS (Seguridad Social), passport, voting, driver's license, bank account etc... And travelling to some countries you dont need to carry your passport, just your DNI (smaller).
Here you can find some pics of it (i found them using google's image searcher):
front
rear
Yes, I realize that the whole citizen registration database doesn't really bother you sophisticated Europeans and Canadians. But it bothers Americans because of our thoroughly untrustworthy, chaotic and incompetent government.
Here are my two not-so-unique experiences:
1. I knew a woman employed as a government worker for a social service program look up her friends and neighbors in the social welfare database that she administered. Not so bad, right? Except that she then got enterprising and began selling the data to Private Investigators, ID Thieves, violent husbands looking for where their wives are secretly sheltered, and a host of other people with unknown motives and backgrounds. Think of the potential for blackmail, extortion, job discrimmination, stalkers, etc.
It's not that our government is evil, its that they don't take our personal privacy seriously enough to secure it properly and responsibly.
Did this woman have authorized access to this database? No, she was just a low-level database administrator who got access because the password was never changed and everyone in the office knew it. Citizen privacy was completely disregarded.
2. Ever been stalked or had your ID stolen? How about losing a job prospect because of the ID theft and its resulting effect on your credit report? Background checks suck because no one believes you when you explain the identity theft.
3. Everything looks worse on paper. And when you combine a universal ID# to a permanent personal record of your life and a government who can't be trusted with securing your private data, you get screwed. You aren't allowed to make a mistake and you won't have a chance to explain a misunderstanding.
I got caught in the act of pulling a really cool technical prank in college and was arrested for vandalism. If I hadn't been caught, it would have been a clever hack with no lasting damage. People would have talked about it for years. The engineering faculty would have praised my skills.
A fair judge kindly expunged my record so I wouldn't be haunted by a simple college prank.
But there it is everytime I apply for a job. Sure the government doesn't have a record of it but the commercial employee background checking companies have it in their database.
My lawyers say there is nothing I can do because my arrest was a public record. Sure, I can call the background checking people up and have them note an expungement and dismissal but the arrest is still there.
Now, I have a record that makes getting jobs difficult. Corporate security profilers don't look at the explanation or appreciate the humor. They just see that I must be a violent person. They just see a vandal.
Consider this. What happens when you want to protest something and get arrested? What happens if you need to stand up to our government with civil disobedience like they did in the sixties? Ten years later, despite the good intentions, you won't have a chance to explain yourself, you'll just have a record that shows that your were disturbing the peace and potential employers will form their own conclusions as to your character.
Given these scenarios, consider the consequences of a National ID system.
Duh - The UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT has been doing
the 9 DIGIT IDENTIFICATION THING for OVER 50 YEARS!!!
IT'S CALLED A SOCIAL SECURITY NIMBER...
DUH...
I really did feel a shiver of apprehension run through my body when I realized yet again that most people are so ignorant on these sorts of issues that they are actually willing to give deluded twits like the one above the Good Nod.
-Fantastic Lad
My thoughts exactly. All that information and more (like being an Organ Donor) is stored by the DMV. And yes, they are ALL now netowrked across the states. No more hiding from those tickets in another state. Hell, if you've rented a car in the last few years, the agencies have more info on you than you realize. It's pretty fucking scary.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
"Is this the beginning of the end of privacy in Japan?"
Don't you mean:
"Is this the beginning of the end of anonymity in Japan?"
One out of 2000 people are born with ambiguious genitalia, either through misdevelopment or chromosome ambiguity. About one in 200 people psychologically dont agree with their physical gender.
The growing consensus is to let the ambiguous child select their own gender as they grow older, rather than to assign one at birth. Assignment fails in half of the cases.
Part of the reason that imposters, such as a third of the 9-11 terrorists and illegal immigrants, get away with fake SS#, back accounts, jobs, theft, etc. is that SS often are not verified. Checking obtains the simple biometrics of age, sex, and birth place. More sophisticated biometrics could be attached to the ID too. Of course, everything could be gotten around, but these simple measures would catch most of the current problems.
that many Americans currently pay at or near 50% of their salaries to the government: federal taxes, state taxes, local municipality taxes, special assessments and property taxes, sales taxes, smog fees, auto registration and license fees
The 50% is questionable.
Most of the additional taxes you mentioned are - shock - tax deductible. I own a home, so I pay property taxes. I also own a car, so I pay ad valorem/licensing fees. And come tax time, I itemize and deduct both of them from my federal and state taxes.
No, you can't deduct sales tax, or several others, so that does add to your overall tax burdon. But it isn't 50% unless you're in one of the highest brackets already, or live in certain areas where you have to pay local income taxes as well (I'd seriously reconsider working in such an area, but telling people to just move isn't a realistic answer). Pre-tax deductions like 401k's and medical savings plans are a wonderful way to decrease your tax burdon and increase your realized income.
Other than that, yeah... a federal healthcare system would probably be a disaster. Most (not all, but most) countries that have tried have created fairly dismal failures -- the plan covers the bare minimums, costs a boatload, and those who can afford better healthcare do so -- even if they have to go to another country and pay full price. As with many things, the free market does a better median job than the government does.
They all look alike!
(I'm kidding)
I guess that is a fair fear, given that from what you hear from US citizens, the US is, for all the talk about the land of the free, one of the most non-free, controlled countries apart from actual dictatorships. I don't know if that is so, but it sure sounds like it when they talk about it.
It's not what we have, but what we're paranoid it might become. We're used to (or, at least, recall once) having far more freedoms than many Europeans expect, such as largely unfettered private gun ownership or the ability to live in utter anonymity; when we see these freedoms (which you don't even expect to have) taken away, we react as strongly as you would likely react were a freedom which you do have (and thus presently value) were removed.
This is perhaps for the best -- if a sufficiently effective response continues to follow the removal of even the least necessary freedom we have, then the larger ones are hopefully quite well-protected so long as this course is vigillantly followed.
Read the comments. The Europeans say, "we've had this for years, what's the problem?" We Americans say, fuck this! I'm not going to let the government track me like sheep."
We Americans tend to be distrustful of governments. I think this is a good thing. When you start trusting the government too much, you let them get away with too much.
Look at the U.K. They trusted too much. Now they have cameras everywhere, a complete ban on guns (although the criminals have no problem finding them), and it is virtually illegal to defend yourself. As a result, violent crime is spiraling out of control. Of course, their solution is even more control of the subjects, further erosion of rights, and another step (or two) to the perfectly controlled society.
Meanwhile, we paranoid Yanks get pissed every time the government suggests national I.D.s or tries to implement gun control. The violent crime rate has been falling for several decades.
-- Will program for bandwidth
In the UK everyone has a nine digit national insurance number, which I guess is similar to the social security numbers you have in the US. The only real difference I can see is that it has some letters as well as numbers in the form AB 12 34 56 C
The hospital would like you to think it is, but My wife,I and our new baby boy Dennis, just walked out of a Kaiser hospital without filling out the forms. Naturally the doctor and the admin were not happy and still following me jamming things under my nose but we just got in the car and drove away :)
I'm not as scared of the idea that the government wants to give me a number,
.sig
as I am by the idea that the government will track me without needing a number.
-- this is not a
The U.S. government has a history of abusing its citizens based on itentity as:
- Viet-nam war protesters
- Communist Sympathizers
- Descendants of Japanese immigrants
- Not being "caucasian"
That's just off-the-cuff by someone who didn't pay much attention in high-school history.
If you look around European history, you'll find times and places where people were put on a list and rounded up, ostensibly for the common good, but actually to be made victims of crimes against humanity. And I'm not talking just about Naziism.
Just because the key database doesn't have certain personal facts in it doesn't protect you. Once the identifier is created, it's all of the _other_ databases that can start to be kept. Who your parents are, what your religion is, what your political party is, what diseases you have, whether you vote.
A government that protects it's people from abuses could provide assurances that this would not get out of hand. However, some of us live in countries where the government has been the abuser, not the protecter
Naturally, in such countries, we're skeptical about whether we're ready to have a handy-dandy identifier so people can index all sorts of interesting "facts" about us.
So? The US has had registers of Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc. as well. This was particularly popular in the US between the 1930's and 1960's, complete with government-sponsored blackmail and employment discrimination. The US had no problems putting Japanese-Americans into camps in WWII without a national ID system. And a century earlier, the US had no problem tracking down American Indians.
The simple fact is that having a national ID system has little to do with privacy or lack thereof. Privacy legislation has to do with privacy. And what protects your from government abuse of power is not the ability to hide in some hole somewhere, it is creating a democratic and responsible government. By the time you have to hide in some hole somewhere (probably toting a gun), hiding from your government, it's already too late.
What should really scare you is the US. The US government is becoming increasingly corrupt and undemocratic. And Americans blissfully and ignorantly throw away their civil rights and privacy rights because the US government manipulates them into a hysteria about terrorism (it used to be the cold war; maybe it will be space aliens next year).
That is something we need to do something about. If it comes down to whether Ashcroft's goons can find you to make you disappear in some government holding cell without due process, you have already lost, ID card or not.
You should also worry about privacy violations by US companies, which are largely unregulated. They can wreck your life with various forms of discrimination, and you are nearly powerless to get the data, let alone challenge it.
Europeans understand privacy and totalitarianism much better than Americans--Europeans have lived through it. It's the Americans that are at risk of repeating the European mistakes because Americans are so blissfully ignorant of it all and think that it just can't happen here.
this doesn't seem to be much different from our social security number, which keeps track of our credit, our personal criminal history, etc... It's already here... haven't you filed for a student loan lately?
If you don't trust your governement, maybe is it a sign that you need another one...
EOM
what is far more frigtening than the nationalization of our id system (which is already pretty damn draconian, i've known several people who have been arrested because they were unable to prove who they were at the time), is the fact that there is already legislation in place currently that says that if states don't adopt biometric information into their driver's liscences by i believe 2006, they lose their federal highway money. sure wish i could remember a citation here, but IANAL.
This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
I don't know about Japan, but I was just required to give a thumb print today to cash a cheque right here in the US of A. If you go to the bank and branch a check is drawn on, they require a thumb print in addition to two other forms of ID or they won't give you your money.
So you have to give up access to pretty much your whole life and a biometric just to get YOUR money.
I told them to keep it, the guy who wrote me the check will be giving me cash instead.
The problem, for you Europeans, is not the giving of a simple thumb print, or even the compilation of a cross referenced database. It is who's going to use it and to do what?
The problem is twofold. First, you are assuming honesty and honour on the part of government employees which is stupid on its face, and you are assuming the government itself will not misuse the information. Let us say by identifying all Members of a certain race and deporting, jailing and/or shooting them. Or all members of a certain political party, or whatever the excuse du jour is.
The second problem is creeping demand for security. If there is no objection to a thumb print, then a whole handprint is ok. IF a whole hand, why not a retinal scan too? If that's ok, let's go for a cheek swab! You gave them that, why not a blood sample? Hair sample? Skin sample? Urine sample? Just to be sure, you know.
I quite frankly do not want to do business with a company that demands a fucking thumb print for a simple transaction involving a small sum of money. Lucky me, I don't have to, I can tell them to shove it, and did.
The difference between a bank and a government is that you can tell the bank to shove it at no cost. Telling the government to shove it is potentially fatal, depending completely on who's in charge this week.
All you Euroweenies who think National ID cards are so great, ask some East Germans over the age of 30 how they liked the Stazi number system. Or a Russian, Yugoslavian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian... you get the idea.
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and that is some shit I just don't want to live through.
Too bad japan is full of a bunch of pussies now, after shogun fell everything went to shit. people being banned from carrying swords an all. well maybe the next /. article we'll see is "samurai fight back against corrupt government, cutting down national id's" LMAO
The faintest whiff of a YRO article, and there is Fantastic Lad. Spouting uniformed, paranoid nonsense like some delusional sheep.
Baaaa... Fantastic Lad, Baaaa.....
Go adjust your tin foil hat, there's a good Slashbot.
I've been reading the arguments for and against a national ID card and came to the conclusion that the Europeans and Americans don't understand each others standpoint because Europeans simply trust their government more than Americans ever will. Seriously, being an American, I trust my government to do nothing but take my money and fill my life with meaningless laws and forms. Americans might seem a bit upitty about defending every little bit of our liberties because the government scares the living bejesus out of us. Granted, im not saying that America is on the verge on anarchy, Its just the way the system works.
My love for you is ticking clock, BESERKER.
I apologize for the caps. I was just trying to emphasize how some people think over here in the bible belt where I'm from. Personally, I'm not worried about a national ID, but it scares the shit of of my parents because they feel its the first step on the way to having the mark of the beast.
For those of you who might not know, According to the bible during the end times of the world a symbol or number that is printed on eith your hand or forehead is required to do business. It's denoted as '666' in the bible. The mark of the beast isn't literally going to be 666, but 666 is used because ancient Greeks assigned meanings to their numbers and 6 and the designation for evil. Repeating words or symbols in succession was one of the ways ancient Greeks expressed emphasis in their written language. So literally 666 just means 'evil times three'. It is also written in the bible that anyone with the mark of the beast will not make it into heaven. Add the fact that the vast majority of Americans calls themselves Christians and the table is set for some problems.
You still might not make the connection between the mark of the beast and the national ID system. Being blessed with especially fervent and pious parents, I've heard the logic over and over so here it goes:
1. Population becomes too large and the government decides to assign everyone a number.
2. The ID works out and the government decides that the national ID should be printed in card form to facilitate business transactions.
3. ID card theft becomes rampant and the government steps in and mandates pictures on all ID cards, effectively putting you on the ID
4. ID card theft drops after the addition of pictures to the cards but begins to climb again after ID counterfeiting methods improve, so the government steps in again and mandates that all the ID must be tattooed, impanted, basically permanently attached to the person it belongs to.
And there you have it. I know the above events probably won't come to pass or if they do, probably not in the same way as written. Personally I feel its a bit extreme view to take on this matter but it is the way a lot of people feel about it over here.
My love for you is ticking clock, BESERKER.
The point of having a discussion board is that everyone can express himself. As long as your comment brings something to the discussion at hand, you will get moderated up. People who flame or who post pointless ideas without anything to back up their "facts" or who, more simply, do not contribute anything to the discussion are modded down.
You may consider my reasons for having a national ID "simple-minded", but at least I do have an argument and defend it in a way that (can) make other people think or counter my arguments with other arguments. That's why I got modded up (I'm already at max karma, so I don't really care btw).
The fact that other comments than mine bring different points (be they opposite or identical to mine) is what makes discussion and progress possible. I have clear ideas on the subject, being a citizen who benefits from the possession of a national ID card. I would have appreciated you actually answering my arguments instead of declaring them "simple-minded" and pointing the readers to other posts in the thread (they already do read other posts, no need to point them at them).
If you feel that it is so important to make people aware of the issues, then express your thoughts in a well organized manner instead of sounding like a whining 12 year old kid.
Enough time spent, please share your throughts on the issue, instead of just saying how wrong I am without saying why.
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
The Really Transparent Society: I'm looking forward to ultrawideband localizers. I'll wear one in exchange for an allowance, to be paid by the minute as electronic deposits to my checking account. It would cut down on crime, since would-be criminals would have an income source, and wouldn't commit crimes while wearing it. Ultimately, each tracker could be an e-wallet, passport, drivers license, and biomonitor. This would be interesting, since instead of the wearer *paying* taxes, the government would actually be paying *them* an allowance, as a compensation for surrendering a degree of privacy. Maybe instead of there being a great centralized global x,y,z database, you could have local agencies that administer the tracking and payments. My local city police department is pretty libertarian and tolerant, so I'd let them have my coordinates. If ever you choose to opt out, you just stop using it and go back to working for a living.
Everyone seems to be concerned with the privacy of their personal data when the real potential threat is beyond that. Privacy is a secondary concern in the face of losing your freedoms.
For example, in China, where you are allowed to travel, live and work are controlled by the government and enforced. Imagine if you were not allowed to travel freely within your country. Perhaps someone currently living in China would care to elaborate?
I have a problem with this line: "Europe managed to get rid of many of those families by shipping over here (can't blame you). Those are the same groups in the US with the large drug abuse and crime problems, which adds significantly to the infant/maternal mortality rates."
You probably have no idea how difficult it is to get into the United States now. We were lucky in 1990 to get visas to come out; now I know someone who can't bring his mother out because they won't give her a visitation visa. The difficulty of getting out usually means that only the wealthier and more educated are granted visas, so I would not agree that Europe managed to ship out their "poor, sick, tired, huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." It may have been that way at one point or another, but now it's more like, "Send me your rich, healthy, vigorous, educated elite yearning to make a living in the land of the priviliged."
From my experience, by the way, it doesn't matter where you come from: across any categories that you can think of (race, class, heritage, so on) there are drug problems, and it may surprise you who's really doing what.
Do you actually know -- I mean, have you looked at studies? -- who the groups with the big drug problems are? Have you actually sat down and studied the causes of infant and maternity mortality rates?
Hailing from Europe as I do, let me clear up something else: "Remember that there is a vast difference between those people and the average United States citizen...the inner-city masses are the ones I always saw on European programs who could not find France on a map. There seems to be a strong desire in Europe to find some uneducated jerk and put them on television to make the US look bad. Either that or they put on an American pop star, which is just as bad."
Not only is there really no such thing as the average American citizen, but the people you are probably thinking of are not necessarily a part of the inner-city masses. I've seen more than my share of people in this world -- all over the world, in fact -- who are well-to-do, "acceptably" educated, and didn't even know where Hungary is on a map. Hell, some of them don't even know it exists!
I think I've met two born-and-raised American citizens who knew where Hungary was and what language is spoken there (Hungarian, thanks), and one of them was a cashier in Walmart. Would she have been a part of your inner-city masses?
By the way, it's not difficult to find uneducated jerks from America or anywhere in the world, so this isn't much of a point. It's really just entertainment that the American social ethic would frown on.
Pop stars, interestingly or sadly, are mostly idolized in Europe. The last time I was in Germany, Eminem had mostly the same fans that he has here: 12 year-old boys.
Could this be .NIP?
What's wrong with that? Do I really care if the government is spying me? Unless I'm being dis-honest, NO.
What's wrong with that? Why USA is SOOOO obcessed with privacy? Define privacy. What will this prevent you from doing in your everyday boring life? Will you stop buying your playboy and surf porn?
I don't think so. I think it's time to wake up and get with one of those programs while the bad guys are freely walking the streets.
It's kinda boring.. I got the idea from a font when I was like 13.. it kinda stuck. Zapf is taken in most places, so this is what I gots. Zapf is a cool last name, though.
slashdot!=valid HTML
Given that the government expects over 1/3 of my salary, I think that a governrmental database containing my name, address, and gender is hardly worth getting upset about in comparison.
Vote for Pedro
Oh, please. You clearly don't have the brain power or personal charisma to enter into an interesting or useful discussion to save your life. Don't waste my time by flatulating into cyberspace about proper conversational conduct.
Grumble grumble. (In a grumpy mood today.)
You know, the problems related to privacy and personal freedoms have all been discussed at great length by me and others, both on this board and others similar. Today I just don't have the patience to bother with it; the endless parade of ignorance here requires a state of mind which I just don't have today. Sorry. However, it is not beyond my ability to be stunned by the level of ignorance in that parade.
My own fault really. I'm an idealist. I try too hard perhaps to live in a nice world. Every now and again, I get to thinking that people in general might really not be through juvenile naivete heading for such an ugly, ugly fall. But then posts like yours get attention, praise and support. Good lord, man! If you can't figure out why and how you've been misled and misguided with each of the items you listed, then your eyes and ears must be glue-gunned shut.
Pardon me for building walls here; I know your back is up against one big-time by this point. Miles away from listening to reason thanks to my mean-ass attacks and total lack of supporting evidence. (I still say, go find your own before spewing such dumb-ass opinions!!!) But the fact of the matter is this:
What you believe makes no difference to me. The only people who place any value on what you believe are exactly the same people who benefit from your support. So believe what you want and get screwed. Go register yourself. Go wave a flag. Whatever. The fact that you were able to post such an asenine comment after supposedly reading through all the pros & cons regarding National I.D. cards on this Slashdot story means you either, A) didn't actually read or evaluate any of the posts, B) Did, but had your, "I'm right and nothing nobody says. . ." filters set to kill, or C) Genuinely didn't understand what you read.
In all three cases, you end up ranking pretty poorly on the Hope scale. --As in, there ain't much for you.
And now I've wasted my time blowing hot air into a class-B twit balloon.
-Fantastic Lad --God, I'm feeling pissy today!
Ah. You again, the uber-prolific Anonymous Coward, (cool handle BTW), my apparently schizophrenic supporter/detractor for these recent years.
I am beside myself with joy to see that a writer of your calibre, who is so brave and well-posted, (if entirely chaotic), is taking note of my few humble scriblings. A true honour indeed! I only wish I knew your secret. . .
And see? Like you, wherever there is ignorance and the whif of an old but sadly, never dead topic, (over 500 posts on this one), there you will find me handing out pamphlets in the overwhelming rain of ignorance with my tinfoil hat set neatly upon my Fantastic head. Ahhh, but life is sweet, is it not?
Yours, A huge fan,
--Fantastic Lad
There have been a lot of references to Scandinavian ID# so I looked for the source *cough* and found this:
http://www.rsv.se/broschyrer/711b/index.html
This should more or less apply to Finnish and Norwegian systems as well.
Hip hop hippity to the bang bang boogie, to the
hip-hop boogity bee..
I was in Borders here in Greensboro a few days ago looking for the Summer 2600. According to their periodicals list, they do still carry it, but they were supposedly out by the time I got there. Good to know that the B&N carries 'em. Thanks.
I've been protesting this National ID since September last year and have found that it is quite difficult to understand. (This is on purpose so it is difficult to attack.) Let me describe briefly the main points that are a problem.
1) The 11 digit number will be widely used in government databases and there are plans already to use it in a variety of databases much more widely than the SS#. There is no privacy law or privacy commissioner watching the central government and their use of these databases for profiling, etc. The Japanese government is notorious for leaking information and it is likely that things such as the whistle-blower list, the FOIA requesters list, genetic information, medical records, arrest records, subscribers to radical newsletters (this list is regularly leaked to HR departments of big companies), etc. will be leaked with people's numbers.
2) The number will be on an ID card that will be used widely and will proliferate more quickly that the SS#.
3) Unlike the US, the Japanese citizen registry is based on a multi-generation record at the local government level and is a very strong identifier and much harder to change/move. For instance, our family has been living in the same house for 27 generations and our gravestone and family records can be traced back and possibly used against us.
I think that they should dump the national ID and use separate identifiers for different databases, hopefully non-human readable things such as hashes or digital signatures.
I am currently on the inquiry commission re-writing the consumer protection law and I am trying to build in pseudonymity and anonymity and hope that, for instance, whistle-blowers will be able to prove that they work for a company without identifying themselves and ending up on the whistle-blower list, which is how it is today.
I think privacy underpins democracy and it appears that the Japanese government has no intention of protecting privacy. This national ID is just a symptom of a basic lack of understanding on the part of the government. I am pushing to freeze the system until we can involve experts and also have a public debate.
Finally people know about it because of the last minute media attention, but in March 85% of Japanese surveyed didn't even know the bill had passed!
We have a web site in Japanese detailing the protest movement. http://kokuminbango.hantai.jp/
CPSR, EPIC, Crypto Rights Foundation, Privacy International and others have been very supportive.
http://joi.ito.com/ http://www.neoteny.com/
The National ID Card: It's Baaack! by Stephen Moore
The ID card is hardly a novel idea. The concept once surfaced in a Reagan cabinet meeting in 1981. Then-Attorney General William French Smith argued that a perfectly harmless ID card system would be necessary to reduce illegal immigration. A second cabinet member asked: why not tattoo a number on each American's forearm? According to Martin Anderson, the White House domestic policy adviser at the time, Reagan blurted out "My god, that's the mark of the beast." As Anderson wrote, "that was the end of the national identification card" during the Reagan years. H.R. 231 is proof that bad ideas never die in Washington; they just wait for another day.
> It would be a lot nicer if just a single number could tie all these other numbers together...
All of the above identification numbers are fully cross indexed en-mass. I expect none of the above list exists without at least one other number on the list in the same record.
Well, except DOB but that isn't an id.
Had anyone noticed that around the world passports are becoming digital, with bar codes and that stuff? Why do you think is this happening?
I'll give you a clue, terrorism prevention.
Almost the rest of the 'civilization' uses some kind of 'tagging' system and we are, in fact, unificating our passports systems.
The thing is, ID serves for THAT: ID, and no matter how paranoid you united statians are, as someone else pointed out, you are already tagged by your government somehow.
In my country (Panamá) when you are born you are assigned a number, that number has a meaning, the first neumber is your province, the second (3 characters) is the tome book in wich was written that you were born, and the last number (up to 4 characters) is your exact entry in this book. (Of course, actually those books have become digital ones.)
And we use our ID for the same things you use your ss# or your drivers card.
Only that we don't have to GET one of those, we have one as a right.
The last project in my country was actually to unify this number with the ss# and the driver card #.
Just sharing my expirience.
cheers
Since Denmark is one of the countries with the smallest amount of cash around, because we all use electronic cards when shopping in supermarket, paying for parking the car etc., there is actually information about what products we buy, stored electronically.
If all the databases in Denmark were linked together, they could find out, how many people that bought a specific toothbrush in 1992, bought hearth attack medicine in 1996. The CPR-number uniquely identifies the population and immigrants. We store:
- Acquisition of strong medicine is registered centrally with your CPR-number.
- General shopping is registered at the shopping centers with timestamp and location. Your payment is stored at the banks with timestamp and location, hooked up to your CPR-number.
- Family trouble that involves social authorities are registered at their place with CPR-number. If your child's institution get a suspicion that you have family problems, this is also stored here.
- All the address you have lived a couple of years back.
- Your family relations.
- Insurances.
- Health expenses at doctors, hospitals (if they apply - normally visiting doctors and hospitals is free around here) is stored centrally.
- Your relationship with army etc. is stored at the army, with your cpr-number.
- Your workplace is registered with cpr. The company tells the authorities how much you earn, and then the authorities can do things like holding back your wage if you owe money to the state. The state also tells the employers how much tax they should hold back from the employee (in Denmark, the employee does the tax declaration - not the employer)
- All your tax information is stored centrally.
- A few video rent chains once required you to give them their cpr-number. This is no longer the case.
- The police stores everything based on CPR-number.
- Your cars license plate is stored with your CPR-number.
So - everything is digital and automatic. This reduces costs a lot. Going this way is inevitable if you want an effective society. Denying digitalization of public administration is like not wanting cars on the roads. The trick is to handle it well - and I believe that this is the case here.
Currently I hold:
1) European Union (UK) Passport (20+ chars)
2) National Insurance (NI) (9 chars)
3) NHS Identification (used to be 7 now 15?)
4) Drivers Licence (20+ ?)
5) 3rd party 'Proof of Age'
6) Three company/building ID's (am a contractor)
7) various bits of financial plastic (Visa/MC)
8) four different store loyalty cards
I can already be tracked/traced and monitored.
Whats the problem?
--- This meme is memory intensive
Do you hear me? I am not going to take it anymore!
The thought of using a number instead of a name is morally repugnant, and should not be tolerated!
#466702
(for the humor impaired, it's funny. Laugh.)
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
With one dressed up to look like a computer and another as Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, the demonstrators danced and put on a short sketch to illustrate their objections to the system.
:)
Maybe we just need to have more effective demonstrations like this one
Place sig here.
Well, I'd say we won't see a system in place like this until atleast Roosevelt's "New Deal" passes and issues all working people those quote-unquote Social Security numbers.
Pretty soon there will be a war on foreign soil that will be an "Ongoing Struggle against those who threaten our way of life--or israel," which will cost an endless supply of young US lives. Information supplied by the government will be little to none, not because they want a 1984 scenario, but because they just don't know anything.
Let's face a few things here:
1) We all have a thousand pieces of ID registered to us anyway. Licences, Health Cards, Credit Cards, Bank Cards, Video Rental cards, and everything are. Consolodation would be convenient in terms of reducing the clutter in our wallets
2) If the government really wants to track you, they will. Your ownership of a specific card won't make it that much easier.
3) Much of the argument here is slippery slope "they could store excessive personal info on here and use this to spy on us!". Don't argue what they *might* do, argue about what they *are* doing!
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one " -Albert Einstein
One thing I never explained...what I was referring to by "shipped" was the tendancy for upper-class European (usually British) families to ship "problem children" (illegitimate, retarded, criminal, big jerk) to the United States so they would not give the family a bad name. This was mainly in the 18th and 19th centuries.
I suspect that this is the reason for a higher-than-normal problems in some groups in the US and Australia. I don't know if this is some sort of a genetic issue, or--as I suspect--a case of children acting like their parents.
One of my ancestors was an illegitimate child of a British duke, so I know what I am talking about here...he was a "problem" they got rid of by shipping him to the US.
When your SS# is used to identify you, it serves merely as the equivalent of your name. However, many institutions inappropriately use it as a password. This is the problem.
Governments do need to know who you are and occasionally where. And I don't care if they have a more unique way of identifying me than by my name (which is quite common). But nobody should accept my SS# in lieu of my permission.
For a good contrarian view of privacy issues like this one, check out David Brin's The Transparent Society.