Slashdot Mirror
One Year After September 11
One year ago today, at 9:12 eastern, we posted
World Trade Towers and Pentagon Attacked amidst the events of that day. Since Slashdot is really just a discussion site, I felt the most appropriate way to handle this anniversary is to simply do just that. I hadn't read those stories since the day it happened, and I really am at a loss for words. But I'm sure many of you won't be. And thanks to OSDN for turning banner ads off for the day.
As America Remembers 9/11/2001, we must remember that we live in a country based on freedom. Those freedoms are being threatened right now because of America's reaction to 9/11, and we have to be careful about that.
:-)
So please, as you mourn, see your friends and family, or watch TV all day (which I hope you don't do), try to remember what it is that we're fighting for in the first place, ok?
Without those freedoms in tact.. there's nothing left to fight for.
I love you guys, tho, and I'm glad it wasn't any of you who were lost a year ago
They just lowered the two flags outside my office window to half mast. The US flag and the NJ state flag. I didn't expect that. I just keep trying very hard not to cry, and that's making it harder. Technology seems very trivial this morning.
we speak the way we breathe --Fugazi
Anyone else feel that it is wrong for the media to cover this story so in depth, and ultimately make money on those that died and their families. I have decided not to watch any coverage. I remember very well what happened. Is any station doing coverage without any comercials? Or at least, is there one that is donating the amount they're making above what they usually do?
Some thoughts on this day of "rememberance" ca be found here and here. Another interesting thing is that all the major networks have decided to not show advertisements out of "respect". The truth is that they can't sell the time so they put a nice spin on it.
This is a question I hear around the office all day long. How does the american public at large, or in this case, the slashdot community, feel about the response America has had to the attack on september 11th?
I personally feel we are continuing to provoke such things through our economic agenda, and that what bush's policy has been shortsighted and really retro-active. Others feel that the world climate is changing for the worst, and we simply need to start protecting ourselves more. What do you think?
Why stick up for big business?
Right, my comment is off-topic when I reply directly to a statement made in the story.
And thanks to OSDN for turning banner ads off for the day.
Mods on crack.
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
I like big cars, big guns, big motorcycles, and big tits. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some mid-level governmental functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts squeezing out babies.
I don't care about appearing compassionate. I think playing with guns doesn't make you a killer. I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason. I think I'm better than the homeless. I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I don't care if you call me a racist, a homophobe or a misogynist. I am not tolerant of others just because they are different.
I know that no matter how big Jennifer Lopez's ass gets, I'll still want to see it. I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you do it in English. I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular opinions or actions.
I want to know when MTV became such crap. I think getting a hummer is sex, and every man is entitled to at least one extremely sloppy one per month.
I know what the definition of lying is. I think Oprah's eyes are way too far apart. I didn't take the initiative in inventing the Internet.
I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks.
I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osborne, Ice-T or Marilyn Manson sang. I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster.
I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite or fat-free on the package. I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God or gods, and they can do it in their schools. I think the Clippers should play in the WNBA.
My heroes are John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Norman Schwartzkopf, Colin Powell and whoever canceled Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman. I think creative violence and useless nudity and sex makes Iraqis deader and movies more interesting.
I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. I know wrestling is fake, but I still think The Rock could kick my butt. I think global warming is junk science. I've never owned or was a slave, I didn't wander forty years in the desert after getting chased out of Egypt, I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you, so shut-the-fuck-up already.
Rocky and Bullwinkle still makes me laugh. I think you can respect and admire women while mentally undressing them. I believe a self-righteous liberal with a cause is more dangerous than a Play Station.
I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jesse Jackson preaches. I think explosions are cool. I don't care where Ellen DeGeneres puts her tongue. I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if you're running from them. I thought Spinal Tap was great, but Rob Reiner can still kiss my ass.
I worry about dying before I get even.
I like the convenience of buying oranges while I'm waiting at a stoplight, and I'm pretty sure the Latina midget selling them to me is glad she no longer lives in a refrigerator packing carton outside Ensenada.
I figured out Bruce Willis was dead midway through The Sixth Sense but enjoyed it anyway. I think turkey bacon sucks. I want somebody to explain to me exactly why it's wrong to point out that when I watch a freeway chase, I know the losers the police eventually pull out of the car are gonna be gang-banging homies or hispanics.
I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes a parent. I think tattoos and piercings are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement and not a fad. I like hard women, hard liquor and a hard bowel movement first thing in the morning.
I believe you don't have to speak with a lisp to pick out a couch for your living room.
I'll admit that the only movies that ever made me cry was Sands of Iwo Jima and Ole Yeller. I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I had a kid. I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebody's feelings. Making love is fine, but sometimes I just wanna get laid.
I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised, no matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to believe otherwise.
YES, I'm a BAD American.... >:-)
Remembering 9/11 and what happened is important, and will continue to be important. However, the media in general seems to be back to it's same old self. Tons of 'tribute' and 'what happened' shows that won't do any justice to the events. Pick your own way to respect those past.
Feel free to mark your calendar for the other months besides September.
January 28, (1986) The Challenger Accident
February 13, (2001) San Salvador, El Salvador 6.1 Earthquake
March 24, (1989) Exxon Valdez
March 28, (1979) 3 Mile Island
April 18, (1906) The San Francisco Earthquake
April 19, (1995) The Oklahoma City Bombing
April 14, (1912) The Titanic
May 6th (1937) The Hindenburg Disaster
June 6th, (1944) D-Day
July 25, (1956) The Andrea Doria sinking.
August 6, (1945) Hiroshima Bombed
August 16 - 28 (1992) Hurricane Andrew
October 8, 9, and 10, (1871) The Great Chicago Fire
October 17, (1989) Loma Prieta earthquake
October 23-29, (1929) Stock Market Crash
November 17-18, (1978) Jonestown
November 22, (1963) Kennedy Assaination
December (1984) Union Carbide Bhopal Disaster
December 7, (1941) Pearl Harbour
December 21, (1988) Pan Am Flight 103 Lockerbie bombing
I will not forget Edward Earhart, 26, transferred to the National Ice Center last December after serving a three-year stint at Pearl Harbor. He, too, died during the Pentagon attack. Following in the Navy footsteps of his father and grandfather, Ed made meteorology a career -- his family talks about how Ed always relished tracking weather. Early this month, on his last visit home, Ed captured the curiosity of preschoolers by talking about clouds and weather in his cousin's classroom. Just as his friend Matthew Flocco, Ed earned high respect for his unflinching willingness to get a job done right. He talked often about his close family, their farm in Kentucky, and the Detroit Lions. He loved computers and was about to learn golf. In his memory, Ed's family has created a fund to help build a veterans' memorial.
projects @ http://spectechnologies.net
Welcome to the rest of the world. The UK and lots of other countries have been suffering at the hands of terrorism for years. The fact that the USA joined this sad list last year doesn't really change much.
Yes it hurts, but it hurts the victims friends and families more than it effects the man-on-the-street. Let them grieve in peace.
...I found express what I feel quite nicely. The first article was found through Kuro5hin. The second article is from The Onion. The scary thing about The Onion article is how close to the truth they came this time while still maintaining the parody. I guess the only thing that dies on 9/11 is irony. Go figure.
As the Associated Press summarizes them:
Overview of Changes to Legal Rights
By The Associated Press
September 5, 2002, 11:44 AM EDT
Some of the fundamental changes to Americans' legal rights by the Bush administration and the USA Patriot Act following the terror attacks:
* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.
* FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records requests.
* FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
* RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
* FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
* RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
* RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
Copyright © 2002, The Associated Press
Yay for liberty and freedom! We are Americans! Look how free we are!
September 11th, 2001:
I was consulting at a company in Rockville, a few miles outside the district. I heard the first plane had hit while I was listening to WGMS, DC's classical station; figured it for a Cessna or something. After I hit my desk I knew something was wrong when I couldn't hit a major news site for confirmation of the story.
We switched the news on; we had a big TV with DirecTV on it in the company kitchen. I had stepped away to try and get word to friends about what had happened, using instant messenging apps, when the second plane hit.
The people in our kitchen reached the instantaneous conclusion that this was not accidental. We watched as the towers burned, saw them fall, heard about the Pentagon being hit. My company employed 65 people there; were they okay?
Workers left to take their children home. I left around 1pm, with F16s and helicopters covering the sky of the DC metro area.
I called my family. They were trying to reach me but couldn't get through due to circuits being jammed. They were terrified that I was there; too many rumors, too little verification that day for us all.
September 11th, 2002:
Last November, my company deployed me to the Pentagon. It started out as one of those "for a week" things, but I wound up involved in a COOP project - Continuity of Operations - directly related to making sure a second 9/11 cannot cripple our nation's defense infrastructure. I'm sitting at my desk, thinking of how much the last year has affected my life (too much work, constant stress, a divorce..) and knowing that the majority of the things that have happened to me of late can be directly traced back to 9/11; were it not for that attack, I would not be where I am now.
I do not know if things are for the better. All I know is that I have been called on to use my meager technical skills to help my country when it was sorely needed. I'm doing my part to make sure we make it through.
Would that we all could do the same.
However I'm glad you raised the point about the freedoms that have been lost. The US has become a little more like the non-free countries it is fighting with the government exploiting the opportunity to help hide its own inadequacies.
Naturally, the whole world needed a chance to vent about 9/11/01 in the days afterward. I find it interesting that 9/11/02 threads have also popped on my own board. I guess people need to vent about the remebrance, forced compliance to remembrance, or just a need to get away from all of the remembrance.
After seeing that it would be a nice, pretty day, I left the TV on. I was watching when they broke into the Today Show to report a fire at the WTC. I stayed glued to the TV as they showed the second airplane crashing into the other tower, and the fires raging, and people jumping out of windows, and the towers collapsing, and the resulting images are forever graven into my mind.
Early on, I dialed up with my laptop. I wasn't one of the folks besieging Slashdot, but I did stay on IRC for hours, talking about what I saw. That turned out to be my only reliable communications channel. My cellphone was completely useless. I got more than a few phone calls from anxious relatives that I couldn't return because the lines were jammed. I finally asked a friend to call my parents in Houston and let them know I was fine and several miles away.
This past July 4 weekend, a friend and I visited Mount Rushmore. At the end of the day, we went to one of the Western dinner theater places out there. Most of the way through the show, they sang a song, "Where Were You When the World Changed?", about that day. I wound up having to leave in tears, as it brought back memories of that day, and how I couldn't get in touch with anyone except over the net. I don't know who wrote it (I asked, but have since forgotten the name - it was some country star), but he did a great job of capturing the feeling for the rest of us.
Disinfect the GNU General Public Virus!
Lets us also mourn the freedoms lost to the average law abiding citizen around the world.
The net is sufficiently clobbered again today.
You'd like to believe that since the 9/11 events of last year that the major news carriers would have learned that during a huge event like this that people are going to try to find out news and information as frequently as possible, and that having the infrastructure to handle the traffic would be worth their while. But it seems that this hasn't happened quite yet.
Of course, the amount of people coming online every year increases probably faster than the infrastructure can keep up, but it seems some things never change...
Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
For that matter, they didn't run commercials for two or three days after the attacks.
Best Slashdot Co
Despite this site slowing to a crawl itself, thanks for posting the news early and allowing those not near a television to follow the tragic events.
---
interested in inventions?
So, it's a year later and still we don't know where Osama bin Laden is, it seems we've forgotten about Afghanistan and now Bush is getting ready to pre-emptively attack Iraq. From what I've read about Saddam Hussein he doesn't just sit around in one place either, so what happens when they can't find him?
:) And remember, opinions are like arseholes - we all are one. Err, have one ;)
What is it with all these stories coming out now about how Iraq could have nuclear weapons in like 30-40 seconds? Seriously though, a few months ago they were saying "2-3 years", now it's down to "6 months" or less. Are they making excuses to attack Iraq? Can't it be argued that the US is also a country with weapons of mass destruction and a warmongering leader?
It is a shame that civilians died in the terrorist attacks, but what about the civilians the US has killed in Afghanistan, like that wedding - they excuse it by saying some collateral damage is to be expeced. Why do they say that the 'terrorist' attacks were "cowardly"? It'd take a fairly brave and strong willed person to willingly fly themselves into a building. If they were cowardly they'd just talk about how they were going to attack America but do nothing about it.
What is it with removing all images of the WTC from movies etc in the last year?! It happened, we all know it happened. Removing the WTC from media I would think is an insult to the victims, it's as if they're saying that the buildings never existed.
Enough typing for me, flame away
However, I do think it is worth as this point reflecting on the foreign policy of sucessive US governments, that is the governments that have helped create Saddam's milirary might, backed the Talibans rise to power, backed Israel and other Pro-American Arab reigems which suppress their own people and finally (especially for us Brits) helped fund the IRA - who have been systimatically blowing up and killing people in both the UK and Ireland for well over 20 years.
George Bush stated that last year was when the world rose up to fight against terrorism. In fact, the world has been rising up and fighting terrorism for over 20 years and had it not been for September 11th, the US would still have not been involved.
I'm not using these points as an excuse for what the Taliban did. Any group that carries out such a thing are despicable - but I believe that the US Goverment should stand back and reflect all the possible concequences of what their policy of meddling in (and funding of) hardline groups of individuals in other countries could bring about.
I observed a minutes silence today, both for the innocent victims of September 11th and for the innocent victims of the future who will suffer when the US seeks to take revenge.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
I just want to say that I know there are going to be stupid, childish, disrespectful comments here and everywhere else any of us decide to look today but I just want to remind every /. reader that it may infuriate, frustrate and maybe even hurt you to see these "Anonymous Coward"'s do this but remember that this is precisely what makes this country great. Better than to be in China where you can be sure that every post has been moderated by your government and that names are being taken down. The freedom to be an idiot and insensitive is just as integral to every other part of our freedoms. Dont' let it get you mad (as it did me at first) just be thankful that we can even have a /. to say all of this at. And corporate or not I appreciate OSDN's gesture today and personally think the coverage in other media is appropriate. WOuld they do this in other countries that aren't as free as ours? I not sure they would.
.. disabling the banners.
God Bless America
Live web cams
Why did these people carry out this act?
We need to create a world where people don't believe the way to move forward is through acts of terror or oppression.
My thoughts are with those who have died through terror or oppression over the centuries. We must find a better way forward.
We're one year on from the indefensible murder of several thousand civilians in New York. No right minded person can have anything but condemnation for that act of pure evil.
We should remember however, that the pain and sense of loss from the destruction of an innocent life is the same all over the world and for those of all religions.
The lasting legacy of the WTC attack should not be war nor more death and suffering.
Reginald Molehusband. Edinburgh, Scotland
The whole point of the matter is that no one deserves death, even those who take up arms against you.
You may not want to mourn the deaths of those who make war, but you should mourn there decision to make war in the first place.
It is the idea that people deserve death for there actions, no matter what those actions are, that has gotten us into this whole mess.
Honor those who fell on 9/11/2001 by striving for peace and harmony. Don't wish death even on your enemies. Pity them for their mis-guided rage, but don't wish death on them.
Whether you are christian, muslim, jew or otherwise, the common thread is that man does not determine who lives and dies, god does. Think about that.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
I think that the most troubling thing coming into the first anniversary of the attack is some of the stuff purportedly being done in the names of those who died, and (just as importantly) what isn't being done.
All the legislation passed supposedly to further the cause of the "war on terror", with the amount of true freedom that was taken away with it (or has the potential to be taken away)...the sheer audacity of our leaders sometimes reminds me of kids loose in a candy store (my best friend compares it to Lord of the Flies)...
How soon we all went back to our divisive bickering over our differences, be the difference ethnicity or religion or income level...
The outcry over attempts to educate our younger generation about the Muslim world...while I agree that such teachings should not be mandated without equal consideration being given to all sides (so, for example, a required reading assignment of a history of Muslim culture should be accompanied by texts on Christian-Muslim, Jewish-Muslim, and Christian-Jewish relations through history), the mere idea that this is pushing some sort of agenda is a telling indicator that many of us still don't have a clue...
I will be respectful, I will honor the dead, but I won't do anything stupidly symbolic.
I work for a major telecom company based in Washington. As I'm about to submit this, at this time last year, we were about 15 minutes away from evacuating our headquarters and moving our critical 24/7 operations to our backup facility. My biggest regret was not calling the one I loved most and telling her that I was okay, even if it was just a voice mail message -- she didn't hear from me for hours. For all she knew, I was hopelessly trapped in traffic or spun out in a ditch somewhere in my attempt to flee the District and get to the backup site.
I sincerely honor the dead. It's too much to ask, but I wish the rest of us would do the same.
We can believe in you for 3 minutes, but beyond that, even the King of All Cosmos can't be expected to wait.
A co-worker had a friend who worked at Cantor-Fitzgerald.
Another friend knew someone who was killed at the Pentagon.
Seeing a CAP over my hometown was surreal.
Best Slashdot Co
United We Stand...
Today more than ever should be a day where we realize that united we stand, divided we fall.
Not as a nation, not as a religious group, not as a terrorist organization.
Today we need to stand together as human beings.
We all live on this planet together and if we can learn to live together in peace, man to man, woman to woman, country to country, religion to religion, then there is nothing that we can't achieve.
We are one house and a house divided cannot stand.
42 - So long and thanks for all the fish.
Some colleagues rescued the Post 9/11 domain from some squatters who were doing something crass.
They've set up a site on some free servers (so don't expect top-notch performance) with some discussion boards and plan to continue what's essentially a post-9/11 blog to news, analysis and other resources about how the world has changed for all of us in the last year.
I guess each of us deal with those events in different ways. Some do it positively, others not so much so. I'm just glad the squatters dont get the last word on this one.
I do not feel that the US goverment is trying to achieve anything out of this other than the mid-term elections. Quietly and cynically using this to cover up the fact various characters in the current administration have been associated with some very bad practices. None of them have served in the US forces that they want to send to Iraq.
Edward (Ted) R. Hennessy Jr. 1966-2001
belmont high class of 1984
Harvard class of 88 (Cum Laude)
Kellog School of Business 93 (MBA)(Computer Science award)
Partner and Principal Consultant, Emergence Consulting, Lincoln Ma.
Ted was a member of the Hasty Pudding and co-wrote "Whiskey
Business", their show in 1989.
He was the musical coordinator for the "Special-K Review" at Kellog during his
time there.
Wife Melanie (My Sister)
Children Rachel, 6 and Matthew, almost 4
Parents Edward and Geraldine (Big Ted and Gerry) Hennessy (Belmont)
Sisters Sue and Kathy
Nephews and Nieces Sharon, 10, Megan (my Daughter), 10, Jimmy, 8, Timmy, 4 and
Patrick, 18 Mos.
Ted was smart, funny, honest, friendly, bald and allergic to cats.
Ted played Guitar (and bass and 12 string). he had a small home recording
studio in his office where he would compose and record original music.
At family get togethers, he would gather the kids and play "Wild Thing" while
the kids sang along.
His and My Sister's favorite movie to watch together was "The Princess Bride"
He was a Geek. Just last week he setup DSL and 802.11b networking in his house.
He travelled 3 days a week, and to compensate for being away so much he devoted
all of his remaining time to his family.
every friday was date night with my sister.
every saturday was spent with the kids at a museum, aquarium, zoo or nature
park.
My Sister always dreamed of marrying Prince Charming and being a stay-at-home
mommy.
until one year ago today, all her dreams had come true.
The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
One year ago today the United States of America, or as we call it here in Canada, "The States," was attacked. The U.S. response was reasoned, intelligent, and graceful. Hats off to you.
The U.S. is often likened to a schoolyard bully, and nobody likes a bully. But what kind of bully only acts when provoked? What kind of bully sits on an offender just long enough to make them say "Uncle Sam," then picks them up, dusts them off, wipes their noses, and sends them on their way with an admonition to "play nice from now on."
No shoolyard bully that I know acts that way. That sounds more like a teacher.
Mike van Lammeren
It will challenge your head, your brain, and your mind.
Like our buddy George W. is really looking out for the civil liberties of Americans. About a year ago, I got laid off and remember watching the CNN coverage as the second plane hit the WTC. The first thought that popped into my head was not about the horror of the event or even those who dies but rather a disturbed feeling that this is the start of a long erosion of everyone's rights.
Today, we have secret courts used to judge people, the FBI/CIA is allowed to perform surveillance on anyone and everyone and the key to the equation...no one is liable or reporting to freedom's biggest driver - us. Before we start bashing a political party, just understand that the old and true parties need to take the blame for the lack of freedom today.
The scoundreles that inflicted so much pain cannot hurt us any more, but we must find it in our hearts to forgive them. We will never forget 9/11/01, but holding a grudge against a people is counter productive if we are really trying for World Peace
Sure. World Peace. After the last one of them is erased.
Vacuum cleaners suck. Kings rule.
I'm fairly sure that the President was a fighter pilot.
The rest of your comment is equally fact-free.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Some of you may have noticed the satellite photos of the smoke and "other stuff" that streamed south from Ground Zero. I live in Brooklyn and was right under that cloud. There was a fine white-grey powder that fell for about 20 minutes. I'm a stay-at-home Dad. I How can I explain the feeling when my kids asked why it was snowing. They were upset that it wasn't real snow and I wouldn't let them outside to play as I swept up. I just told them that it was dirt that had blown down from Manhattan. My wife works a whole 3 blocks from Ground Zero but was home taking my school-age daughter to her first day a school. I'll go to my grave remembering the feeling that I was sweeping out a crematoria in front of my house.
You forget that the only sure "proof" of Saddam building/having weapons of mass destruction is USING those weapons. With Iraq's track record, they are not trustworthy.
I would rather get rid of him now than wait 5 years when a missile is in the air and we all say, "damn, I guess he really did have a nuke."
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
I happened to be in one of the towers on 9/11. I'm sick of hearing it; I think anyone in the towers at the time are sick of hearing about this. We'd like to move on, I'm watching CNN now and I'm just disgusted, this whole thing disgusts me. Nothing but leeches, money grubbers and people trying to take away my rights dwell on 9.11
I don't want a moment of silence; I'd like silence on the subject for a while; completely.
At least until the next time.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
For your best media coverage in the US, please turn to listener supported NPR. Here in Austin, TX, I have the impression that Clearchannel is taking a day to build a brand name. NPR is doing what they always do, trying to represent as best as they can the events that happen.
Save bandwidth. Listen to the radio. Or, if you're at work and can't get radio reception (like me), their live program stream is available in Quicktime, Real, or Windows Media. Politics aside, most people's computers can handle one of those programs.
Their online coverage is available here, and their program schedule is here. Please note that all times are in Eastern time.
Those freedoms are being threatened by terrorist and domestic liberalism. Get your facts straight!
Really? When did we elect Bin Laden as President ? I didn't think he signed the US Patriot Act into Law, I thought GW Bush did. Terrorists can't take away our freedom, short of a full scale invasion, only our government can. As I recall, Bush is a conservative, if he is bent on protecting our freedom, why did he sign the US Patroit Act (which guts the constitution) ? Why is his administration holding American citizens without charging them with anything, without access to a lawyer, without any trial, let alone a speedy trial with a jury of peers ? I suspect you need to rethink that statement.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
>for the future iraq victims >for everyone that has ever died through the >hands of injustice, opression, agression and >that old capitalist tool: imperialism.
Darnit, why does everyone on Slashdot feel like they always have to pile on the political rhetoric thick and high no matter what the occasion. Can't we just take one day to drop the Right vs. Left crap and mourn for the dead?
I'm ashamed at this site sometimes, especially looking back at many of the high scoring posts from 9/11 that basically said we got what we deserved. Those women and men, mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, just trying to mind their own business and go to work did not deserve to die a fiery death that day. Nor do they deserve to have their rememberance used as a launching point for cheap political attacks.
Brian EllenbergerDon't think that someone didn't think of creating a World Trade Center plush toy. The people pretending to be WTC victims were bad enough.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
After 9/11 last year I heard a lot of families all saying the same thing. They all wanted just one more day with their deceased family members so they can let them know how much they were loved. So, I came to a decision. I'm not going to be glued to the television to see any memorial services. In fact, I decided that today I will not turn on the television or radio at all. I will not be attending any local memorial services either. In what will become a family tradition, I am having my whole family over tonight, because I have the time now, the time that so many families would just love to have back. I am going to spend the day appreciating and thanking God for what I have, rather than lamenting over what "we" have lost. If you have kids, turn off the tv and spend some quality time with them (seeing planes flying into buildings isn't really helping them anyway).I think we all should take this day to get in touch with our loved ones and let them know how we feel right now, because, if nothing else, 9/11 taught us that we could lose everything we love in a single moment.
I'm sure lots of people will do different things today as a reaction to what happened, but this is just my opinion. I'm not saying it's for everybody.
Larry Miller wrote a great article for the Weekly Standard a while back, and I found it to be a refreshing read.
He's also written another article dated today to discuss 9/11.
Enjoy.
$0.02 (CDN)
Thanks OSDN
Your Servant, B. Baggins
Yeah, I was just talking at the problem presented by the parent poster.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
As much as a terrible thing that 9/11 was, I can't help but be much more concerned for those 250 people that die each day because of Iraq sanctions, of the millions starving around the world because we rich people are too unwilling to solve it, because of the abusive and dominative policies we western nations place on other countries, and the many more greater evils that we are responsible for.
The terrorist attacks on 9/11 seem to have been a response to many of these problems. They targeted pentagon - a symbol of military power, and the world trade center - a symbol of capitalism.
Revenge seems unjustified to me unless those who were affected can look at themselves first and say "Is there anything that I am guilty of that would make it injust for me to seek revenge?" I think that unless the western nations look at their faults, which are much more grevious than what the terrorists have done, we are even more guilty than they.
We need to look at ourselves and clean ourselves so that we are without excuse. Only then can we justly say "We did you no wrong, and this is how you repay us?"
Right now many peoples and countries have the right to complain against western evils, and we are certainly far from being without fault.
Mourn on this day, but don't look past the facts that the problem will not be solved by war - it will only be increased. Attacking Afghanistan has solved nothing, and attacking Iraq will solve nothing also.
The solution is with ourselves - recognising and mourning all those evil qualities we all possess, and all those actions we are guilty of. Otherwise how can one murderer say to another "what you did was disgusting and you deserve to die" without saying the same thing to themself?
It saddens me that 9/11 could have been used as a catalyst to produce lasting change in people's hearts. Instead, we are now on the road to war with Iraq which seems to be against the wishes of almost every nation, with worldwide warnings of disastrous consequences.
The solution is at home.
I felt like a zombie for the next few days. All of Slashdot's team worked together to update stories and struggle against traffic that spiked to 3 times our usual peaks. Spare boxes were stolen for the cause and brought online. Meanwhile we did our best to make sense of what was happening along with everyone else.
I'm still very proud of how we handled our tiny share of that day and the aftermath. I know that what we did helped some. And I seriously feel honored that I was able to help.
I've actually been on edge all week knowing that this story was going to be posted on Slashdot. It forced me to reread much of our original coverage. It forced me to relive those frantic first minutes, and the hours, days, and weeks that followed it.
I hope this story manages to help some others too. It has already helped me.
Pants are still optional, but recommended for you.
Let's say that I've changed for the bad. I'm more paranoid now, and I look at every Middle Eastern person I see and wonder if I should call the authorities. Is this the kind of person I want to be? Would this really be a change to be proud of? Or, as we've heard said so many times, would this mean that "the terrorists win"? Would I find it funny now to send white powder to my enemies? Or spraypaint graffiti on a mosque? So no, I'd prefer to think that I have not changed for the worse.
Ok, then, maybe I've changed for the better. Maybe I'm one of these people like I read about in the paper this morning that says stuff like "After 9/11 I decided to not let the small stuff bother me anymore. I wouldn't shove my way off the subway, or flip off the guy that runs the red light when I'm trying to cross the street." My response to this? What in God's name made the tragic death of 3000 people the reason that you suddenly decided to become a nice person? Shouldn't you have ALWAYS been like this? Couldn't I have gotten up any morning of the year and said "I'm going to be a nice person today"?? And perhaps more importantly, does it make you feel better to really *do* it, or just to say it? This morning somebody ran a red light while I was trying to cross the street. I flipped him off. I'm no hypocrite - I never claimed I wouldn't do that, because I never expected it would be a promise I could keep. Meanwhile there really is a column in today's paper from a woman apologizing for "giving a guy a nasty look" on the subway. Well, at least she recognized her own hypocrisy and tried to make amends.
Maybe you really have changed. Maybe you are a model citizen these days. You said it, you meant it, you're proving it every day. So now you're in a position where you've got the terrorists to thank. Isn't that special. Don't try to debate it -- you've just admitted that it took a terrorist act to smack you upside the head and make you wake up to your influence on the world around you. So sorry that 3000 people died, but at least you got something out of it. How long is it going to last? Are you a good person forever, or has your attention already gone on to other things? What did you promise yourself on 9/12? Have you checked up on that list lately?
Maybe you were a good person all along. You regularly do charity work, and donate your time and money, and think about your fellow man. Then I expect that 9/11 didn't change you at all. It just gave you an opportunity to feel that your good deeds actually make a difference in the world.
"September 11 changed me" is not something to be proud of. It should be an admission that you needed a wakeup call, and it took a tragedy of such magnitude to make it happen. The best possible outcome you can hope for? Now that you're awake -- STAY THAT WAY. Ask yourself every day if you're really awake to the world around you and your place (and influence) in it. Because if you're not, then who knows what the next tragedy is going to be to make you *really* wake up.
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
I purchased a red/white/blue ribbon from a fireman at a stoplight just a few days after the attack, and it is still on my car antenna, albeit a bit dirtier now. I don't need to wear red white and blue to work today, even though it was "suggested". I don't need some kind of mandated or suggested sign of solidarity.
I was really surprised at how soon Americans went back to their daily lives. Saddened, really. It wasn't long before I heard my first Bin Laden joke, or was emailed pictures of him with a building going up his butt, or saw a Tshirt with a target on his face. I was amazed, but not really surprised, at how quickly good ol' Americans returned to their stupid, over the top, to the EXTREME! ways. It was nice to see a flag on everyone's car. It was sad to see some cars with 30 flags on them. It was nice to see sentiments of freedom, sad to see such bravado and machismo. I kid you not, someone near where I work painted their house red, white, and blue, with big hand painted letters phrase "Justice will prevail".
Sometimes I am very proud to be an American, but sadly sometimes I am a little embarassed. Today, I am going to be proud. Proud of the fact that we do enjoy freedoms in this country. That we try to offer it to everyone. Even if it means that you can act like an ass sometimes. That we have clean water to drink, and plenty of food to eat. That I have a beautiful wife of 3 months. Sad that corporations are so greedy and controlling, and that money is such a driving force. Sad that so many people lost their lives because of ignorance and fear. Hope - that we can all get beyond what happened a year ago, and what atrocities happen every single day on this planet. If there is a God, may she bless us all.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Than Almitra spoke, saying, "We would ask now of Death."
And he said:
You would know the secret of death.
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.
In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond;
And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.
Is the sheered not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?
And what is to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?
Only when you drink form the river of silence shall you indeed sing.
And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.
Rapid Nirvana
My photos are here
also Here is New York has many good photos as well.
I mean, other than atomizing the whole region.
Not flame-bait, just asking. In a year, did anyone come up with a way of solving that 50+ year old problem?
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
...know what's good for others. To prove it, we've been living the good life for quite some time.
As for oil, we pay for it.
As for internation courts, well, let me just point out that Libya is now, with French connivance, heading up the U.N Commission on Human Rights.
Totalitarianism is in the hands that have always held it, and people like you are the silent co-conspirators.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
It's weird, I don't consider myself squeamish and I used to eat lunch while me and an old boss were checking out the latest additions to Rotten.com's gallery. But I swear to god everytime I see the footage of the planes hitting the towers I get this weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. I've never had that happen before where some image has an adverse reaction on me and I cant even begin to explain it.
And I said it last year and I'll say it again this year... I'm still really pissed off about those palistineans dancing in the streets with joy while downtown Manhattan was busy getting covered in 2 inches of soot.
BOSTON SUCKS!
One year has passed since the United States faced the attacks that will be associated with this date, 11 September, for a great many years to come.
It would seem appropriate at this time to look back to see how America has changed, specifically in its relationship with other countries.
Why do religious extremists justify attacking America? What is it that makes citizens of foreign countries hate America? And is America doing anything to counteract this problem?
If the outer shell of the Pentagon was completed.
I know they set an ambitious date to have the outer corridor fixed by today. Did they make it?
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
I believe all the major networks are running special programming and are commercial free for the entire day today. I have a a schedule of the major US TV networks up at the WorldTradeAftermath.com website.
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
but I've had a rush of emotions daily ever since September 11th of last year, the images of the planes crashing into the towers, the billowing smoke of the pentagon, and the crater left in Pennsylvania have had a very lasting impression on me.
One thing that I don't like which has come out of this is how President Bush is pushing his agenda on regime change in Iraq. He has not stepped forward with any kind of reassurance which will lead me to believe that a regime change should be possible. Is President Bush not worried about "blowback", which is what happened when we helped the mujahadeen in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Russian army. I can easily see some major "blowback" happening to the United States in the coming future if we are not careful and think ahead.
Never Forget.
Life
Don't forget this when you go out and cry, "My civil rights are diminished...."
Life means, we have a right to be secure. It's the job of our govt. to enforce this right.
Liberty is second to life but above all others. What kind of liberty does a dead-man enjoy?
Happiness is third. I can't be that happy if I have to worry about terrorism killing a loved one and I'm not free (liberated).
All the other Civil Rights pale in comparison Life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. They are merely derived from these three. They're hardly even honorable mentions compared to these three, but I'll mention some of them, (Privacy, Speech, Association, Expression, Religion).
That's what I'm thinking about and I'm also reflecting on this question.
What am I willing to die for?
Not much as I'm a coward (though not anonymous).
I think, however, I'm willing to die for my family. Hopefully, I'll never have the chance to prove this.
With that said, I'm in awe at our armed servicemen. I find in inconceivable that they are willing to die for me. They deserve my greatest respect.
I was at work, wondering when my boss would get to the punchline.. "A plane crashed into the WTC.." "And??"
All of this memorial stuff is getting very overdone though...
Where were you on Jan 26, 2001? Do you remember any news that happened that day at all?
On that date, an earthquake hit India, leaving 13,000 people dead.
thirteen thousand. More than four times the amount killed in the World Trade Center. Think about that for a minute. How much coverage of it did you see on CNN? Maybe a day?
We've been hearing about this same story (Even giving it a catchy title) for an entire year now. How about a sense of perspective, folks?
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
It may have escaped your notice, but we're at war.
In such circumstances, the Constitution gets suspended so it can't be used against us.
As soon as we've established freedom in the Arab world, we'll go back to where we were.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
The history of the United States is punctuated by times when its people were underestimated:
1. The American Revolution - England underestimates the ability of a rag-tag militia made up mostly of civilians to free the peoples of the colonies.
2. WWII - Japan delivers what they thought would be a cripling blow (the bombing of Pearl Harbor), underestimating America's ability to recover and fight back.
3. Desert Storm - Iraq underestimates America's ability to mobilize a world force to take back Kuwait.
4. September 11, 2001 - Terrorists turn four commercial airliners into weapons, killing thousands. America unites and fights back.
I think America is underestimated because outsiders view freedom of religion, freedom of speech, tolerance of different opinions, and open debate as a sign of disunity. Americans agree to disagree, and are passionate about defending the freedoms that allow such diversity.
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
--Gandalf
before they nuke us. Saddam own mistress believes they are working on nuclear weapons. What would have happened if we had just let Hitler sit back and develop an arsenal of mass destruction?
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
Sunday, I was watching the history channel and saw a special on 9/11 One year later. It gave details to how all the events played out. Things that happened months later, And while I truly appreciate them only showing the buildings on fire once, It still brought chills over my body, and almost tears to my eyes, as SO many people became only memories on that day. I remember sitting in my office (computer helpdesk for law firm) and having one of our attorney's from the NY office on the phone with me and she said "did you hear, a plane just hit one of the trade towers". At that point, I didn't honestly believe it. I was in more of a bit of shock then anything else. So as the true geek in me, I message my boss and apparently inform him of it for the first time as well, at the same time open up a web browser to the NYtimes and there it was a picture of the burning building. It still didn't look real as if it was something in a movie. This was about ten minutes after the first plane hit. Our team (helpdesk) was not sure what to do/think- Accident, terrorism/ real/fake ( although we all knew it was real, just hard to believe) shortly after the second plane hit, we were all watching TV at this time ( computer connections to the websites were well Slow) we all saw the second plane, and (hard to type) [ devastation ]. We then shortly heard there after about the Pentigon and it was really hitting close to home as the office is about 3 to 4 miles from it. There was an office staff meeting, and it was still not apparent as to just HOW serious this was. There was a Muslim guy in there, and jokingly said "I promise, I have nothing to do with it" America under attack. Finally the towers collapsed, and I have seen that video so many times, I honestly wish to NEVER see it again, it is awful to believe and imagine that SO Many good people died on that day. My thoughts and prayers out to the not just the victims, or their families and friends, but to the entire world, because on that day as the entire world was affected, Not just the USA. What was the point of this post, It started because of the drive with your lights on, on 9/11 thread. Maybe I just want to remember all those that lost their lives on that day, and to those that lost loved ones on that day. No comments or words will ever bring that loved one back, but you can always cherish their memories and remember the good times with them.
www.oobersworld.com - For those that ride.
Did anyone see Jim McKay's "They don't want revenge, they wanna be loved" speech during Monday Night Football? Peter Jennings must have written this for him. I for one want revenge. It's the responsibility of the government to protect and distribute justice. They should pay with their lives and all who chanted in support of them should pay with them. They stand united, so should we. ABC TV would have us believe that we should "understand" them better to come to reason. They hate us, they attacked us, they should die. >
Have you posted your story on wherewereyou.org?
I discovered the site about a month and a half ago, and the posts are mostly interesting glimpses of other people's lives as feces met fan blades on America's Bad Day. I revisit the site every few days to read the newest posts, and found that posting my own account of where I was and what I did and felt, was oddly therapeutic.
~Philly
First, thank you very much to Slashdot for being one of the few news sources last year that had the bandwidth to be useful during a crisis.
Second, I wrote a rant earlier today that I think everyone should think about very carefully (though the slashdot crowd is less guilty than most):
Third. Speaking of missing the point. Rather than trying to understand WHY people find it necessary to blow up our shit, the American people and their politicians are having a deplorable reaction. I won't repeat the lists of freedoms taken away, or the liberty/safety quotes. You all know the story by now.
Fourth, if you want to make a difference, let your representatives in government know that your freedom is more important to you than anything else. Remember, us mp3 "pirates" could be considered terrorists before too long. I'm serious.
Fifth, I'm not asking you to give up your SUV. But support alternatives to petroleum. Mention that to your representative. Petroleum products send a lot of money to people I'm really not interested in -- if we want to buy stuff from them it doesn't bother me... but with that money goes Western culture and ideals. That's why they want to blow up our shit. If someone told me I couldn't drink or date, I might start blowing up their shit. That doesn't make it right, but it's better to think of things in terms of cause and effect rather than effect and reaction.
-brian
As a Turkish citizen, the country which runs the peace force at Afghanistan now and the only true muslim (as I am not) ally doesn't play games with USA, I have saw those in 1 year, I was called those:
a) Towelhead
b) Go back to your cave, what you do on our (site,chat etc)
c) Nuke the mideast
d) You stink
Also protecting my rights and trying to tell the truth, I got banned in favour of americans.
any many more. As I don't consider myself muslim, and tell about my habits like beer drinking, bars etc... I really started to wonder what a "real" muslim would feel.
Bin Laden's plot was exactly that. To make people discriminated, to start a civilization war...
He... Susceeded...
RIP to 3000 people who died in WTC. RIP to millions of them if this evil plan works good (!). Don't forget, the suckers who crashed planes into WTC&Pentagon were uneducated ones, they were brainwashed to ignore the most powerful insict even, life. Why act like them?
My eyes are watering as I type this - it's coming back a little too clearly. I'll never forget that day, though, when I learned exactly how big our community is, and how close it can be.
God bless all of you today. Hug someone today and tell them that you love them. Be with family. Live to post another day.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
There are a lot of events going on in New York City through Sunday to commemorate the attacks on 9/11. I have posted a schedule
on the WorldTradeAftermath.com site.
Best wishes to you and yours, today and throughout the week.
Regards,
John
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
No, Iraq hasn't. But have you forgotten what Saddam is capable of? Do you remember what he did to spur our response a few years ago? He hasn't let weapons inspectors in, and is hiding things. Iraq in the near future will be the supermarket for terrorism.
And I don't like Saudi Arabia either.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
Here's a quote from the transcript of the Larry King show on CNN:
KING: Do you agree, though, with the all-day coverage? Every network seems to be doing...
CRONKITE: No, I think we're going to get very weary, as tragic as are the stories, as heartrending as are the stories, as tear- jerking as are the stories, I think we're going to get very tired of hearing them over and over again over a period of two or three days or more. I think it's going to be overdone.
I agree with Walter...
Well, as an American citizen, I really shouldn't, because our "leaders" have told us in no uncertain terms that if we try to blame America, we'll be classified as terrorists. So not only does the corporate media ignore the real explanations, but a serious attempt has been made to intimidate Americans who might be able to explain it all.
If you want to know, you should check out the many things that have been written by the citizens of the poorer parts of the world. There is no shortage of explanations for why someone would want to do such things. There is a lot of documentation on the behavior of American government and corporations over the past century. It's hardly secret. And it's not restricted to Americans; Europeans share the blame about equally. Terrorism is nothing new. If you don't understand, you just haven't been paying attention.
One nice thing about the Internet is that it's difficult for the authorities in the relatively open countries to censor news and history. The information is out there; go look for it.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
sorry about that
here Is New York.org
August 8, (1995) Windows 95 Release Date
I remember you posting this LAST YEAR! You, sir, have a very wierd SK Death Fetish.
geeks are cats who dig a certain kind of cool
Imperialism isn't a capitalist tool, its an authoritative tool. True free-market capitalists get HURT with authoritative regimes such as ours. No capitalist wants regulations, tariffs, or subsidies. Only the authoritative business leaders desire those.
Don't confuse media's definition of capitalism with the true definition of capitalism...
For what it's worth, I posted the following at work this morning:
No, there's no American flag in my cubicle.
It's not that I don't share your grief, your pain,
even your lasting anger on this anniversary--I do.
It's not that I don't love my country or appreciate
all she offers--I do.
There are few other places
in all the world
I feel I could enjoy living.
But I've never felt that the best response to killing,
however brutal and undeserved,
is more killing,
and I'm still naive enough to believe
that God will show us another way,
if only we stop hating long enough to listen,
so I choose to express my dissent by not waiving the flag.
And in a country where I've watched some of the things
for which I love her most
eroded,
where it's accepted as a given that security and freedom
are unavoidably opposed,
where 69% of Americans believe the Freedom of Information Act
should be sacrificed to protect our government,
where 48%, almost a majority, believe the First Amendment
goes too far in the freedoms it grants,
and where those who have expressed unpopular opinions
over the last year
have been met with anger, fear, and hatred,
"America, love it or leave it,"
I choose not to pledge an allegiance I no longer feel.
How can we be one nation, indivisible,
when those of us who disagree are asked to depart?
How can there be liberty and justice for all
when American citizens, let alone foreign nationals,
are held in military custody without trial, jury, or even counsel?
I do love it; I won't leave it;
but the sense of solidarity most Americans gained
on that dreadful day a year ago
still escapes me,
and so I choose not to overtly participate in the commemoration,
not out of any disrespect for those who died
or those who survived--
I grieve for them all more deeply than I can say--
but out of respect
for what I think we could become
if only we tried a little harder
or looked a little deeper.
Shawn Menninga
September 11, 2002
SMQ 90AE4B2BC4F6BEAF7340F0B40BA2DEF7340F6BC2D0392
Your a troll at least post a to back up your argument
like this one or this one that knock you down
Lets see, the US has a mild terrorist? attach, some buildings collapsed because they where build on the cheap. and forget about the pentigon i might be a ligitimate millarty target.
So the US kicked ten-tones out of shit agains a muslim country... the US has a worse track record than anyone else.
I'm not shaving today, to remember the muslims that got killed
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Go to your library and read about IRA terrorist attacks on British soil and the subsequent responses from the super power. And that's only the first example that comes to mind.
for everyone that has ever died through the hands of injustice, opression, agression and that old capitalist tool: imperialism.
Ironically, if American was actually as imperialistic as its critics say, it wouldn't have these problems, because it could have flattened all opposition over the past decade.
Really, terrorists and bullshit middle-east (and african) governments exist only because the Western world tolerates their existence. The bullshit governments are responsible for tens or hundreds of millions of deaths and the continued daily suffering of a large portion of the world's population. Terrorism is a symptom of this poverty. Perhaps America should become imperialistic. And bludgeon its victims with freedom and rights and prosperity.
It was an excellent call to present the log of Sept. 11, 2001 today so readers could recall not only what happened but how they came to know what was happening that day. But this would be a good time for Slashdot to re-think its policy on leaving the year off posts in its archive. As time goes by, the years blur together, and a 9/11/01 post becomes indistinguishable from 9/11/99 or 9/11/02.
I won't ask that you put aside your political differences in this time of national mourning. I'm not.
I won't ask that you give up your rights quietly because 9/11 shows that those rights will be our downfall if we continue to have them. I won't and I don't buy that.
I won't ask that you give up fighting because 9/11 shows that nothing can be solved by war, and that only peace will succeed in making the world a safer place. Far better and more righteous people than I have tried to end war and have failed miserably.
I won't ask you to rise up against the US government for its brutality and evil around the world that caused us to be attacked. Every other nation is just as evil, and has just as horrifying skeletons in their closet. America is just happening now. No amount of wrong done excuses what the hijackers, and those who helped plan and fund the hijacking did.
I won't ask you to condemn or absolve Muslims as a group for the actions and beliefs of some that called themselves Muslim.
I won't try to convince you that the lives of those murdered were in any way more or less important than the lives of Israelis killed in suicide bombings, the lives of Palestinians killed by Israeli solders and civillians, the lives of Vietnamese women and children murdered by American soldiers at the Mi Lai Massacre, those that died when nuclear weapons were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, those that died at the Battle of Pearl Harbor, or any other life lost. They aren't. A life is a life, whomever's it is.
All I ask is that you remember the dead. In the end, that's the best any of us can hope for after we die in this world. No amount of war or peace will bring them back to life. Whatever existence is or isn't waiting after life ends, memory is all that is left of the person in this world. Remember the dead, and be glad you are alive, because it could have been you on those planes, in the World Trade Towers, or the Pentagon. Remember the families and friends and their loss, because it could have been your friend, or brother, or sister, or mother, or father who died that day. Remember their loss and throw a party, and hang out, get drunk, play touch football, talk until the wee hours, play video games, watch movies, argue, or whatever you enjoy doing with them, because most of us will die before we're tired of this life.
In the end, what you do and what you believe doesn't matter to me, and I expect you feel the same about me. Just remember for those people, that went out of this life in a way few of us would choose to, and don't forget that we're all lucky to be alive.
That's it, I guess...
some people were bitching about how osdn is using this "sacrifice" as a way to become a commercial hero. quite frankly, i think it is a nice gesture. what do people expect? them to save the world?
If you're reading this, chances are you're busy hacking away on your *nix workstation. I ask you to take a brief moment and step away from the cyber world, look outside and remember the tragedies that took place only one year ago. Never before in my lifetime have I witnessed an event that affected the entire planet in the way that 9-11 has. It doesn't matter what country you reside in or what your nationality is, most will remember the precise moment they first were made aware of what happened that tragic day. Our day to day struggles seem so small all of a sudden as we realize just how lucky we are to be living a life the way we choose to. History has shown just how precious freedom is and it is something we should never take for granted. No doubt life after 9-11 has changed but at the same time we should not let those few soulless beings who try to take our freedom away from us and then have the audacity to justify their horrific actions in the name of their own warped sense of religion, change the way we choose to lead our lives. In the grand scheme of things, our existence is a mere blip on the radar screen of the reality we live in, be sure that blip counts for something.
Peace
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
He didn't become a pot smoking (but not inhaling), draft dodging rapist who organized pro-communist teach-ins from the safety of Oxford.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I thought 9/11/01 was going to be a typical day for me at the time. I was a recent college graduate with a CS degree and no job. Employers were turning me down because the jobs I was applying for require either experience or additional knowledge beyond a college degree (i.e. certification).
/., I learned that the receptionist wasn't making up stuff about the WTC and Pentagon. It was right around this time that Cleveland mayor Michael White announced a press conference, announcing what the City of Cleveland would be doing to keep its citizens safe (some of you may recall that United Flight 93 was in Cleveland airspace and turned around in the Cleveland area before crashing in PA). I knew that I wouldn't be able to continue my job search until this whole mess straightens itself out. While driving home, I had to make a couple more stops. One of which was to the Mentor Chamber of Commerce office. After leaving the Chamber office, I walked past another office where the receptionist had a TV going with a broadcast of CNN. I decided to stop in and watched the disaster for about 30 minutes before departing for home. Only thing I could think of was that with airplanes grounded, they better be airborne very soon, because I had a business trip to go on later in the month.
I started out the morning, leaving my house right around the time the first plane hit the WTC. When I arrived at one company that I was going to interview with that day, I learned from the receptionist that the WTC was hit. I didn't believe her at first. After wrapping up the interview (I didn't get the job because they were looking for a VBasic programmer, and I had little knowledge of VB), I asked for directions to the nearest public library. I then drove over there, tried to get into every major news site, and could only get into Slasdot. After viewing the headlines on
In the back of my mind, I was wondering if the FAA would take George Carlin a little more seriously. On one of his comedy specials, Carlin did a routine on airport security, and he specifically mentioned passengers being allowed to take knives on board a plane. Anyone hear if the FAA also banned glass bottles and knitting needles as well?
That wasn't an explanation. That was an knee-jerk accusation masquerading as wisdom.
Go back to your Chmosky.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
I'm looking at the whole thing a bit differently:
1 year ago, a group of people showed the whole world, that nothing is impossible...
To your first paragraph: there's a lot of "Hate America First" liberal academics doing just what you claim to be afraid of doing.
To your second paragrsph: America may have made mistakes, but America has done more to improve the world than any other country in history. Bar none. What's actually happening is that foreign kleptocracies pump out anti-Amrican propaganda to keep their masses distracted. Apparently, more suggestible Americans are also susceptible.
To your third paragraph: I'm well-informed.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
Last time the "sleeping giant" was wakened was WWII, and we came out and did the Right Thing, during and shortly after. Non-punitive postwar policies in both Europe and the Far East were some of our finest moments.
After the Cold War, the US sort of began dozing off, again. We still had our fingers in other pies, but the level of engagement was lowering. At times it looked like the world was going to do quite happily without *any* superpowers, eventually.
On 9/11, I knew that the sleeping giant was awakened, again. But this time I had an ugly feeling that the sleeper was going to be *very* grumpy, and not so 'polite' as last time. This seems to be happening, unfortunately. Part of the Al Qaida purpose was to drive a wedge between the West and the Moslem world. Especially with the recent Iraq noise, we seem to be playing into their hands, giving them greater success by driving a wedge between the US and the rest of the world, not just the Moslems.
IMHO there is a key distinction to be made here about fundamentalist Moslem terrorists: They don't believe in modern society. They share beliefs with a Moslem subset that would like to see the world taken back to the year AD 700, when the Prophet lived. Think Afghanistan during Taliban rule, except that during the times of the Prophet, society was much more enlightened with respect to women. Generally in a war, you have two societies fighting for dominance, with the implicit assumption that one society will force its will on the other, but that both will remain essentially intact, one changed. The current War on Terror is different, because Al Qaida's objective is not to change our society but to eliminate it. They currently participate in modern society, in order to remove it in favor of their Utopian vision of the times of the Prophet. (Though again it's a vision that may not truly square with the reality back then.)
It's noteworthy that as naughty as he may be, Saddam Hussain heads a nation, and it acts like a nation. Perhaps a naughty nation, but still a nation. That's fundamentally different from Al Qaida. I guess they'd really like to destroy the society and nation of Israel, and that's not good, but that's a far cry from rejection/destruction of modern society.
IMHO the greatest problem facing the world today is overpopulation and its attendant resource/environmental effects. The greatest factor in dropping the birthrate around the world is the education and empowerment of women. Moslem fundamentalism is a grave danger to the entire world, precisely in its disempowerment of women. The US is not blameless here, with its blind-spot on "reproductive issues" in foreign policy, but at least we don't advocate burkasn.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
I do believe if he was still around today, this is what he would say. The first time that I read it (one year ago), it brought a tear to the eye.
I have little patience for those who say that those who live under a regime so oppressive and brutal to their own people are "innocent" when they are killed in an attack on that regime. They are either supporting the regime, or they are aiding and abetting by not opposing the regime.
This is why there is so much immigration to the US and other western democracies. The west has created a free and open society (yes, we may bitch about the DMCA and RIAA, and rightly so, but we're quite free) which rather than serve as a model has come to serve as a haven for those who will not stay home and liberate their own homelands. We allow people in at such a rate that they feel no pressing need to fix what's wrong where they started out in the first place. Many of our forebears paid a heavy toll to bring us freedom (and I don't single out the US, but most of western culture), they should be staying at home earning their own.
Anyone else feel that it is wrong for the media to cover this story so in depth, and ultimately make money on those that died and their families. I have decided not to watch any coverage. I remember very well what happened.
I've been watching less and less television as they day approaches, but have caught some of the coverage despite that. Partly because I know someone who died, and partly because I am sick to death of our wallowing in self pity. Some of the coverage has been quite tasteful (though distasteful to me personally simply because the quantity of coverage is too much), while other coverage (Fox, for example) has been positively disgusting. Then there was the "let's relive the moment" crap (I don't recall the channel, as I switched rather quickly), a blow by blow retelling of events, as if going through the trauma wasn't bad enough the first time.
PBS (Frontline, McNeal-Lehrer, etc.) in contrast has been very tasteful (though it is all still too goddamn much, which makes even the most tasteful coverage distasteful. A week lead in for crying out loud!?! Give me a f*cking break).
That having been said, I think it should be pointed out that over 50,000 people have died in car accidents in the United States in the last year. The damage done by the subhuman Al Q'aida vermin, in terms of human losses, was relatively modest (though no less tragic for that). Most of the impact was architectural (a few missing buildings) and pyschological (the horror). The latter we have in no small part the media to thank for (the events were bad enough, but that didn't seem to slow them down any in hyping even that, something they haven't stopped doing over the last year), which I think is one of the most despicable aspects, outside of the despicable act itself, to this whole affair.
Then there is Ashcroft's and the FBI's blatent power grab in the wake of the tragedy, which was almost inhuman (subhuman? certainly inhumane) in its cynical manipulation of the events.
So while the coverage is annoying, the lack of perspective (3k dead v. 50k dead on our highways, etc.) and its resulting fear (you're not afraid of your car, are you?), the ongoing media hype, the unprecedented power grab by the executive branch of the federal government and resultant shredding of most of our constitution are far more disgusting, and the consiquences of that particular form of collective stupidity is something we are likely to live with for a generation or more.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
It is the right thing to do, though. Over the past few days, on TV and elsewhere, I have seen many "tributes" to the people who died on that day. TV shows commemorating the heroism of the New York emergency personell, the heroism of the people on the flight that did not crash into a building, etc. I even "half watched" a cople of these, mostly because I was too lazy to quit coding long enough to find a remote to change the channel. On every single one of these specials, I saw something that made me lose all respect for what they were trying to do: Commercials. If you think about it for a moment, TV stations are still charging for that advertising, and since they know that a sentimental American public will be watching those advertisements, I would imagine that they are charging a boatload more for that airtime. At that point, to me at least, these specials become less about "honoring the dead" and "remembering the tragedy" than they are about shameless and blatant corporate profiteering off of a tragedy. This simple action has placed Slashdot and OSDN a cut above the rest in my eyes, and I salute their action. /-Dan
I still feel the same emotions, albeit quite a bit lessened. Not anger, not rage, not fear, not terror. Just sadness for the people who died. That is all. A year ago, I was openly crying in front of a TV in the office lobby. This morning, my wife and I just watched the ceremonies, and again just feel plain sad for the families. That's it. Still no anger, no fear, just sadness.
And the people who want to drive me into some kind of jingoist frenzy can forget it. The list of names included a "Hussein", several "Changs" and a number of "Garcias". The only thing that united them was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And woe be to the politicians who wage revenge in my name, because I don't want revenge. I want peace.
It's time to stop allowing the Iraqi people to starve and die from malnutrition and treatable disease, simply because we don't like their dictator. I don't remember reading many sagas of human rights violations in Iraq prior to the Gulf War. But in any case, whomever is right, whomever is wrong, we need to get those innocent people some food and medicine, instead of keeping it from them.
If we want to punish Saddam for whatever reason, send in the snipers and get it over with. All we are doing now is starving, and by inaction murdering, the Iraqi people. I'm sure Saddam has food, wine, and medicine, regardless of what the US does. In any case waging another war in the area in the name of "revenge" for Sep-11 is a farce. The Taliban was a truly evil regime, stoning women to death for not wearing the correct clothing, or for being raped. Where are the tales of Iraqi atrocities, other than the invasion of Kuwait?
Ah, yes, the Kurds. Indeed, Saddam is a genocidal terrorist. So why isn't the rest of the world gearing up to be alongside the US? No answers.
And Palestinians are a terrorized people, just as much as the Israeli people are terrorized. That's just a bad, bad situation. The only solution is a permanent, enforced Palestinian state. Just give them the West Bank and/or Gaza Strip and be DONE with it. Neither side is right, no matter what either side will tell you.
Damn, I started ranting. Ridiculous thing to do, when what we should be doing is simply remembering the lives that were lost on Sep-11 and get on with ours.
But one final word: the embargo on Iraq is being carried out in our names, by our power. Thus each and every one of us is responsible for the deaths of thousands of children. Saying, "but I'm just a citizen" is no excuse.
Elections are in November. Find candidates who are against the embargo and elect them. If everyone convinced 2 people who didn't vote last term, and convince them to vote this term, the entire face of politics would be changed over night.
MORTAR COMBAT!
I wrote a comment to this, but to save space on this server I will only post a link to it. I don't agree with the above poster. But I will let the details of this be presented by my diary entry. Comments welcome here or there.
Bully or Teacher
Kalen D'arrie
Isn't blaming America kind of like blaming the abused wife for "making" her husband beat her?
Though I suppose that analogy could go both ways considering the way the US has abused almost every country on the globe... Maybe it would be a better analogy to compare the US to the abusive husband whose wife finally decides to shoot him... Either way, the behaviour of the US does not justify the destruction caused. The reason behind it was, in my opinion, purely religious. No jealousy of freedom or wealth or anything like that, simply the burning hatred of a bunch of decadent, hedonistic, infidels.
Kintanon
Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
Destroying the environment? Pshaw... How many two mile thick clouds of smog that occlude 10% of the sun's light hang over the US? Oh that's right, it's over southeast asia, not the US... /.
The US may of been guilty of environmental disasters in the past, but US industries are amongst the cleanest in the world. You can't even kill yourself in your garage w/ a car that meets CURRENT emission standards (not the insane ones that some people would like to impose)
And what EXACTLY is wrong w/ genetically modified food? In the case of Argentina, it was a patent issue (which is the subject of a whole other argument and a whole other rant) and not the fact that it was genetically modified food...
Oops, wait, I'm at work... shouldn't be ranting on
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
Comment removed based on user account deletion
During the Gulf War, Iraq had chemical weapons. Did they use them? No...
Uhh, yes they did...
Read this document. The US had its own crummy reasons for saying Iraq didn't use those weapons. Both acts are horrible.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
At least the OSDN banner link is really tasteful.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
It seemed to me that some executive stood on some moral high ground and decided to 'protect' everyone from emotions that might well up when listening to John Lennon's 'Imagine' or S & G's "Bridge Over Troubled Water. Dumb. Another example of how out of touch with *people* corporations are.
The only reason I think of this is because I happened to be listening to Ben Kweller's "Falling". (great tune) Hmm.
a so-called "war" on Afghanistan, despite no real proof's ever coming out that Afghanistan was really involved in the Sept. 11th attacks;
a looming "war" with Iraq, for no apparent reason other than that GWB doesn't like Saddam Hussein;
a $50B increase in military spending in the US, an increase which by itself alone is more than the military budget of any other country in the world;
a steady erosion of US civil liberties and rights, including the imprisonment without due process of two American citizens on spurious charges (Lindh and Padilla) as "enemy combatants";
an extraterritorial concentration camp for unfortunate POWs in Guantanamo Bay;
the odious phrase "regime change" and a resurgence in the belief that the US has the right to effect such changes worldwide by dictatorial fiat, military force, or covert operations;
a steadily worsening situation in the Middle East, particularly involving Israel, Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, possibly because of the eschatological beliefs of the US government's three major players;
a "perpetual war for perpetual peace" bred out of (as far as I can see) a revenge mentality and a refusal to accept the last death. (As Martin Luther King said, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.");
the US's disregard for international criminal courts (such as the ICC, to which the US is opposed) and the rule of law shifting from tacit assumption to formal policy, making explicit the seeming belief of US policy-makers that there are two sets of rules: one for the US and one for everyone else.
Well, if these are the results of a reasoned, intelligent, and graceful response, I'd hate to see the results if they just decided to act out of nationalistic fury...
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
Liberals? Last I checked, Bush & Ashcroft & co. are all conservatives. Did I miss their defection to the Democratic party?
One year ago today, US soil was attacked. I expect to hear a lot about it in the news. I expect to see a lot of ribbons. I expect to see a show of security.
...that they are going to attack where you specifically work and live over better targets? ...and what is the cost you're paying.
That's why I'm not going to watch the news, wear a ribbon, but will make a comment on security.
You see, a lot of American have already mourned and come to emotional terms with what happened. A day of remembrance is nothing more than a day of television ratings. Fair-weather patriots bother me even more; too many people just wear a ribbon to call attention to themselves more than to silently commemorate. The loss of Jim Henson, Gene Roddenberry, and George Burns seemed far more sincere by Americans on many accounts. Perhaps that's because we knew them more intimately, and we know we're supposed to feel bad, but just don't have the connection. I feel it's more important to be honest about your emotional state than to follow the trend of buying a $10 flag for your car and taking a company mandated minute of silence during your lunch break. Is it true loss felt, or more of the desire to just fit in because of peer pressure?
Air travel will be particularly light as American's fear to board a plane this anniversary. We've got scud missiles pointed at the clouds. NIH is checking every single car that passes through its gates. Many US citizens tremble in not being able to leave Northern Virginia fast enough, wanting as much distance as possible between them and the District of Columbia.
It just seems like society doesn't have common sense anymore. Everyone thinks the terrorists are out to get him or her specifically. At SAIC when the planes were falling from the skies, they locked down their parking lots and you had to show a badge. If you're a terrorist, and you've got scare resources of hijacked planes, where are you most likely going to put it... some place of specific military importance or of high political interest, or one of hundreds of SAIC buildings spread over the country? Hmm. Let's think.
GEIS did the same thing for things like the Gulf War or threats from Iraq, and at times even took the GE meatball logo off the building. Security by obscurity just gives a false sense of safety. It's like covering your eyes so the monsters under the bed don't get you.
We know for a fact that the terrorists we're dealing with are patient. They'll sit low for 10 years or more just planning. You think somewhere along the way they'd have access to a phone book with a street address. I'm sorry, but many of us just aren't that important enough to be attacked: what we do or produce can quickly be picked up somewhere else by someone else. Such an attack is wasted, and the terrorists know that.
I understand the publicly stated reasoning behind it all: "we deal with government," "we make parts used in missiles," "we deal with the stock market." The reality is employees who don't understand risk analysis feel scared, and making a show of activity is creates the illusion they're protected. This way they'll go back to being productive and making money for the company.
Take the anthrax scare. The day it came out, the very day, near the very hour of the news report, SAIC had to call in the HAZMAT team because someone reported seeing a white substance in the stall of the women's bathroom. When this happens, every call must be taken seriously. It's expensive, it's inconvenient, and it shuts the place down. It places a taxing burden on emergency response units, and those who seriously need it don't get the on-demand service required for a real emergency. Consider this, Bin Laden himself sneaks past dozens of guards and automated systems, by passes the lobby, conference rooms filled with military, skips over a great biological target like the cafeteria, and goes up half a dozen or so floors, sneaks into the women's bathroom, and drops a white substance overtly on the floor to be seen and recognized by the untrained. Great plan, or irrational panic? I'd argue that more financial damage was done by Americans who did a knee-jerk reaction without asking "come on, is this a likely target of benefit" than the planes themselves. Naturally, hours later the lab reports it's dust from the toilet paper rolls. Go figure. And to be fair, other companies were doing the exact same thing. What did security do? They passed out handy-wipe packets, the kind you get to wipe your fingers after a BBQ dinner, to everyone... yeah, that'll stop Anthrax.
Let's get real, should a terrorist want to breach any of these facilities, do they have the resources to fake a badge? Sure do. But why go through that trouble, when you can point a machine gun at a minimum wage security guard. I once asked an AOL guard what he'd do if a gunman came in demanding to pass. The answer: "Hand him my keys and resign."
Countries are always ready to re-fight the last war, never the current one. We assume that the tactics used will be the ones used again. That's not how wars are fought. Look at how the Red-Coats expected the engagement -- let's point guns at each other, you fire at me, I fire at you, we reload, and go till no one's left to drop. Change tactics, boom. Fast forward to present day, we've got all our defenses set up so that we can address a missile-flying and world-war-II threats. Duh, hasn't anyone realized the enemy is already on our land, has been for years, and has access to deploy from within our borders? Crippling a country has become so much easier now that people won't defend themselves and we rely on supply chains and lack the knowledge of basic survival skills.
I loathe the airport and NIH security policies. First of all, ask yourself, if you were going to conduct another attack, would you be doing it on a day the Americans were waiting for it? The element of surprise just worked so well last time. So, where will todays stepped up security measures be tomorrow? Why weren't they in place yesterday? This is the same issue I take with holiday-only patriots -- where was your pride of country before this event, and why did it fade so quickly?
What's worse is that even if we had all the security policies in place, all the time, even back in 2001, it would not have prevented the attacks. Even the US government admits that. So, I ask, why if we've just declared the procedure benefit-less do we engage in doing it, especially at such cost? The answer: because if we don't do something, people will says "you're not doing anything" -- and that looks politically bad for those holding public office.
It doesn't take half a mind to fashion a decent weapon real-time on an aircraft from readily available supplies. There are so many ways to bypass security that even 60 Minutes got past airport security with a gun on national television.
I'm surprised at how panicked Americans get, too. Two planes barely put a dent in the real face of New York. One plane damaged only a section segment of one wall at the Pentagon. Yet, people were acting like DC had been flattened and the shock wave was traveling hundreds of miles. That's movie special effects, not reality. I thought other countries had a problem with conceptualizing the size of the United States, apparently it's own citizens do as well. If something really bad is happening, please leave the public utilities and transportation means open to emergency units. News will still travel.
The problem with current security policies is two fold. Number one, we don't take into account that the attacker is willing to trade their life for their goal. This one is hard to combat, because the common set of deterrents don't work. Number two, we don't take a pro-active stance; we believe the world thinks like us, shares our views, embraces diversity, and as a whole wants to get along. People, we're the ignorant ones.
What this attack has shown is how unprepared we are, and more importantly, were. We can't want the government to protect our borders and at the same time deny them the means to provide that defense. Defense doesn't equate to war. And each time a country has been completely subdued by force, peace results, and usually good relations after the fact. Each time we let the politicians dictate how, we still have skirmishes and we've lost. Think Japan. Think Korea.
Because we're in a panic, many Americans are willing to trade privacy, freedoms, and liberties for security. I shake my head at this behavior. Safety does not have to come at the expenditure of these things, and more importantly, shouldn't. Plus, the "security" we're getting is illusionary; it's not the real kind that gets the job done. It's a show.
Let's wise up and start asking the right questions. What is the realistic probability that terrorists are going to attack today?
As the old joke goes, "elephants are excellent at hiding in trees." "What do you mean, I've never seen one before." "My point exactly." Before you allow fear and stress to ruin your emotional state and you've tossed every principle being an American is about out the window, ask yourself if those guys protecting trees from having elephants climb in them are actually providing value, and while you're at it, find out how many elephants they've personally been able to stop in the past.
Several interesting follow-up points:
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
It's not about death as revenge or justice as far as I'm concerned, it's about death because there's literaelly nothing else to do with these people. There's no way that human law can possibly carry out a "just" punishment against these people no matter what you do.
We're talking about people who think it's OK to kill thousands of civillians and actively seek to do so. This isn't just "misguided," it's just plain wrong, but these people have all but been programmed to think this way.
What would we do with them? Could we capture them and try to "de-program" them? Not very likely. When you're cheering the death of thousands of unwitting civillians, I'm tempted to say you're too far gone for rehabilitation.
And what if it were possible? Would you enjoy living another 50-60 years knowing you did so utterly reprehensible and wrong? Normal people in the US prison system have to go through counseling when they take part in an execution, and that's just one person. How much counseling would you have to go through for 2000+?
The only other "alternative" is to lock them up in a cell somewhere for the rest of their lives. And as far as I'm concerned, captial punishment is more humane than life in prison with no chance of parole. Nothing but you, the four walls around you, and your thoughts.
These people are too far gone to even try to set straight. We'd be doing everybody a favor (including them) by killing them.
Holy Crap, do you even see what is wrong with this statement? You have just crammed YOUR religious beliefs into a sentence that is supposedly about letting people believe what they want to believe. YOU need to think about the fact that not everyone believes in God, let along YOUR god. Not everyone has the same views, you need to respect that.
But I do agree with you about peace and harmony. The real problem here is that sometimes you cannot hug someone and make it all better. You need to accept the fact that there are people out there whose beliefs and actions threaten others. Changing your beliefs will not necessarily change theirs. Even if you strive for peace, they may not. What do you do then? Palastine/Israel is a prime example. There is no clear right or wrong in that situation, if there was then the outcome would be obvious. It is not. I think the source of a lot of the world's conflicts can't be solved by organized religion because they are CAUSED by the beliefs that organized religion perpetuates. A lot of the most horrific things that the human race has done have been in the name of religion. So I agree that we should all pursue peace. But do it for the sake of peace, not under the guise of religion.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Having sampled much of the "anniversary" rubbish currently being run instead of news in papers, on website and on television, I've noticed the most important *new* story has been missed.
...
That is, the massive public backlash against this over-wrought, corporatized, media-hyped grieving period. Everyone I know, even people who usually suck at their various media feeds like a crack pipe, are one and all rejecting the media hype surrounding this "event", and doing their own thing to remember in a dignified fashion.
I've never seen anything quite like it, such a broad rejection of mass-media values and corporate mandated "feelings time" - and of course there's not one mention of "people expressing disdain for media exploitation of grief" anywhere to be found on the "news"
That in over 50 years since Israel was founded, their enemies still don't recognize them enough to even put them on their maps.
That Palestinian children are so brainwashed into hating Israel, scores of them have strapped bombs on themselves in order to blow themselves up as well as many Israeli citizens as they can take out.
That Iraq is able to scoff at international law, kicking out the U.N inspectors and rebuilding their weapons of mass destruction while the rest of the world(except the U.S.) turns a blind eye.
The really sad thing is that when all is said and done, Palestine will end up with no more than they were already promised before the start of the infitada. The Taliban is gone, Al-Qaeda has been scattered to the wind, and Iraq will undoubtedly see a regime change. All that vehement hatred directed toward the U.S. and Israel, and what is it going to get them? Nothing, if not less than what they had before.
That is truly sad.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
The whole point of the matter is that no one deserves death, even those who take up arms against you.
.Someone that by choices TARGETS innocent civilians for mass murder *deserves* to die.
It is so sad that you think this is true.
There are VERY few people in this world that I wish death upon. They didn't accidentally have a stray bullet hit someone.
If you wanted to debate WHO the actual killers were, fine. Maybe the mastermind is the only person left who should go down, some might say that anyone who EVER heard even a whisper of a possibility of the plot and did not act is subject to death as well.
But to make a broad, generalizatation that NO ONE deserves death is just too much.
I WILL WISH DEATH UPON THEM. I do NOT pity them beyond the sad choice that have made, and their crass indifference to the impact their childish rage has brought.
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
I will watch some of the programming, as a way of keeping the incident fresh in my memory; but I do object to some of the tone of the programming. Perhaps the best way to show our strength is to appear less wounded.
We've done a great deal of healing since the attack; and if I felt we had a statement for Bin Laden, it would be that we are not nearly as wounded as he might think we are.
Please understand that I'm not minimizing any of the hurt or loss; but look at us. We're arguing over what to rebuild at the site. We're flocking to the movies on weekends. We're gonna put Martha Stewart in the hoosgow. We're still driving from state to state without papers, and even still teaching people how to fly. Bin Laden failed to be as big a hazard as even traffic accidents last year; but look at what he and his organization have suffered. Outside of radical Islamic circles, he has lost any credibility he had. He's far from being ineffective; but his work is in fact very restricted compared to a year ago. Overall, he's a failure.
So perhaps we should advertise our healing as well as our pain.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
Alright, this might annoy some people, but I'll go for it because I'm frankly sick of all this.
I live in New York. Last week I got an email from an old acquaintence ("Old aquaintance" translates to "sends me chain letters and won't stop") asking everyone on the list to pray for the dead and those who have lost. She also suggested that everyone drive with their headlights on today (Twin beams of light! Get it?!?). I normally ignore her, but on this one I snapped. Like a good portion of people in New York (I assume), the attacks affected me for two weeks. It was horrible to see the city shut down for a week - it seemed impossible. But life went on. I didn't lose anyone. I didn't didn't lose my job.
But people refused to let go - the media and politicians, specifically, as well as Americans who now use this as a way of explaining who we are as a nation. It's not denial on my part or anything - the actual attacks haven't affected me in any way, emotional or otherwise, in a little under a year.
The things that have affected me are things like the US PATRIOT act, Bush's rampant power-grab. So I emailed my friend back and told her to give $50 to the ACLU or the EFF. You want to help, fine, but prayer does absolutely nothing, and driving with your lights on is stupid. It's...painless. You're not pinching your budget, you're not donating time. Do something substantial.
I think our attitude (ok, mine) is summed up perfectly as this: We don't ever want to forget, but we don't want to be constantly reminded either.
It's not online yet but there's a wonderful article voicing this opinion much better than I can in this month's Harper's. I suggest you pick up a copy.
Triv
You left out the worst natural disaster in U.S. history. The Galveston Hurricane of 1902 killed over 6,000 people.
My other sig is extremely clever...
Ok just off the top of my head, I'll give you some clues
WIPO, think all the prople who die because of patents on drugs and the WIPO trying to wipe out clone productions.
BUSH, I've got my finger on the button and it's twitching. enough said.
RIAA,WIPO, There effectivly introducting a world where everything is licensed there fucking up contract laws and there probably lobying for hellish privicy laws the RIAA and WIPO are turning the world into a corporate state. fuck napster i can hum the songs if i want to copythem.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
My mind is constantly justifying its rejection of racisim to itself lately it seems. The same goes for most of our freedoms, e.g. do we really need, why do we allow, etc. I can't stand that I am now forced to do these things, espeically since I was raised in an enviroment where racisim and prejudice were intolerable. It makes me hate what happened more than any other element.
I thought hard, and only made one promise last September, and that was to live each day to its fullest. I think I've succeeded so far, this last year I went from an apartment dweller with a girlfriend to a homeowner with a fiance, two new cars, and a dog. I like to think I'm trying to live the life so many others didn't have a chance to. That is the american way, afterall.
I don't know that it took a terrorist act to force me to wake up, in fact, my outlook on the world is much dimmer than most. I know there are alot of high tensions in the world, mainly resulting out of what ammounts to jealousy and greed, and in the end, lots of things ammount to jealousy and greed, including the reasons behind why the US is what the US is today.
During the presidental election, I was forced into voting for Bush over Gore, because I was afraid Gore might ruin my career (as a computer programmer), at least more than Bush is capable of doing in ignorance. As an afterthought, I'm still not sure what I would do. Does anyone really beleive Gore would've handle this situation in a more graceful way? I don't think so.
So, mabye I'm awake, mabye I'm not. Mabye what I really want is someone to go ahead, and make the irrational decision that ends this problem one way or another. All things considered, that's the only way its going to happen anyway.
Yeah, it was bad. I mourn that day when so many died by so few who felt that was the only way to make a statement or exact revenge or push some political agenda or whatever.
A life, any life, is a precious thing that once taken, can never be returned. How can we protect our lives? How can we be safe? Freedom is inherently unsafe. Yet, between safety and freedom, I'll always choose freedom.
My hats off to the couragous crew and passengers of the 4th airliner. If there were a civilian version of the Medal of Honor and if anyone truely deserved it, the people of that 4th airliner certainly do. Good job, thank-you and God bless.
I remember the The Onion's Bob Seigel saying that Irony was dead, a bit premature I think. When they came back, their 9/11 coverage was excellent.
Ridiculopathy.com's 9/11 year in review also seems worth the read. Some of the stuff, quite dated by subsequent events, reads like a time capsule of topical humor immediately following that horrible day.
I wrote a comment to this, but to save space on this server I will only post a link to it. I don't agree with the above poster. But I will let the details of this be presented by my diary entry. Comments welcome here or there.
I believe that your efforts to "save space" on this server are really just a ploy to profit from this tragedy by drumming up hits for your own site, so I choose not to follow your link. I might look tomorrow.
Mike van Lammeren
It will challenge your head, your brain, and your mind.
exactly. neither in the ad, nor on the linked to page, does it say, "OSDN rocks, we are doing this for blah blah blah". a simple, tasteful campaign, and I'm for one glad they did it.
MORTAR COMBAT!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
OK, so don't ever watch any specials about Hiroshima or the Bombing of Dresden either (which both had a LOT more casualties, almost all civilian). Oh, but these were Americans that were killed, so this is different...
Yes it is different, but not for the asinine racist or bigoted reasons you so disingenuously imply.
First, the insinuation that it is somehow common for Americans to value American lives over other lives is false and disingenuous. Media coverage does not equal people's attitudes. When I lived in Germany, the national news emphesized which Germans had been killed in such and such an event, just as American media emphesizes which Americans are killed in such and such an event. Ditto for the time I spent in Japan, in the UK, in Hong Kong, and in France. The Media always emphesizes the number of 'locals' killed in dramatic events, irrespective of whether those 'locals' are Americans, French, Germans, Chinese, or Japanese.
However, none of the Germans I knew were any less horrified at the loss of non-German lives than they were with the German lives lost (remember the Concord?). Ditto for the UK, France, etc., and ditto for the United States
Secondly, you are equating battles which took place against already belligerent enemies engaged in all out, no-holds barred world war, versus unprovoked attacks (by any reasonable definition, all "blame the victim" nonsense aside) during peacetime, such as Pearl Harbor and most especially the events of 9/11. This doesn't make the destruction of Heroshima, Nagasaki (forgot about them, didn't you?), and Dresden any less tragic or terrible, but it does mean they were fudamentally different in their nature and their context than the events of 9/11.
So, while the civilian deaths of Heroshima and Dresden were terrible, that was war, waged against countries which were engaged in active hostilities against us and who, by the way, started the fucking thing to begin with. The World Trade Center, in contrast, was not. Equating the two, and drawing asinine conclusions like "Americans are bigots who care only for themselves" is fallicious both logically and ethically, and frankly you should be ashamed.
The vast majority of us (aside from some fringe elements, of which every country has its fair share I might add) are horrified whenever we see death, be it American or otherwise. Why do you think we give so much of our money to try and alleviate famine, pestilence, and the ravages of wars we aren't even involved in in so many distant lands. Because, irrespective of our media or our government's behavior, we as a people do care about human life and are saddened by human suffering, irrespective of whether the people affected are American or not.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
How many more people are going to die.
. htm
s ia _sr42_fy02.html
7 02 63.stm
By the Taleban, who wants the world to return the late 14th century. Wants Christians, Homosexuals, Hindu's, moderate Islamics, and anyone who disagrees with sharia to be put to death?
What were the predictions of death before the US went in there due to starvation in Afganistan (irregardless of US bombs?) 7,500,000. People forget that we immediatly started food shipments as well into afganistan (and had already been providing more then a 3 million in aid even with Bin Ladin in sactuary in Afganistan).
source: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2001/afg159.doc
Will we save them all? Probably not. Did we save most of them? Yes. That alone is a major step up.
We have invested 689 Million dollors just into relief efforts.
In general, if there is one criticism to be made in general from the Afgani war is that we did not take a active enough approach to it, and accidently killed people that the warlords "mis-identified".
http://www.usaid.gov/hum_response/ofda/centrala
Many millions more are going to the governments directly as well. Imagine how much worse it could have been if we had not gotten involved when we did.
By Al-Qeda
Al-Qeda has called for the re-establishment of a Celiphate as their main rallying call. In addition, Bin Ladin wants the relativly (anything is relative compared to Iran/Iraq/Syria) moderate government blodily overthrown.
Al-Qeda contains many other organizations. On top of this list is the Lashkar Jihad which has been attempting to "purify" Indonesia by exterminating the Christians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7
3000 or more have died.
Aceh Merdeka is responsible for more then 2000 deaths in Indonesia
Want more? Go Here:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/
These groups will kill simply on the basis of ethnic, religous or political differences.
Today they are being challanged.
Hussain stands with Hitler as the only dictator to use WMDs against his own population (gassing). He has killed hudreds of thousands of political dissidents, and invaded two nearby countries in the last twenty years. He is activly persuing biological, nukes, and chemical weapons. Deployed WMD's for strike against Isreal in the Desert War in the early 90's but was dissuaded when the US government informed him that the response would be of "biblical proportions" should any WMD be used. Known to believe that Isreal's annilihation would be the key to unifying the Middle east.
How many will die? Depends on weither we stop him before he nukes someone.
I remember that morning.. was on my wat to work in Westchester NY and was on 9A which parallells the Hudson for a bit... I dont remember the order of things, but I know I saw a plane swoop down kinda low,.. wobble back and forth a few times, and then go off at an odd angle... a plane never caught my attention like that as I was driving before, and since they did follow the Hudson as a guide, I just kinda have a feeling that it was one of them.. Was listening to Howard Stern that morning too... and when he broke in with the story, I remember the whole road came to a stop. I got to work and pictures and video were already flying through the network.. couldnt get a phone line for anything.. military jets and helecoptors just screamed over the area... days like that arent easy to forget, and they shouldnt be forgotten anyway.
Ok just off the top of my head, I'll give you some clues
WIPO, think all the prople who die because of patents on drugs and the WIPO trying to wipe out clone productions.
BUSH, I've got my finger on the button and it's twitching. enough said.
RIAA,WIPO, There effectivly introducting a world where everything is licensed there fucking up contract laws and there probably lobying for hellish privicy laws the RIAA and WIPO are turning the world into a corporate state. fuck napster i can hum the songs if i want to copythem.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
* The US provides military hardware to Israel in its 50 year crusade to ethnically cleanse the "holy land" of Muslims and make that area a Jewish state with Jerusalem as it's capital. (This is called Zionism)
Uhuh. Allegations aside, we keep our treaties. Doubtless we'd be a far better country if we ignored all our treaties we entered into with other contries.
Why shouldn't the Jews have the city THEY founded thousands of years ago, that was originally their capital, as their capital?
* The US has troops on Saudi soil, land that is holy to Muslims.
Yep, and we were invited their by the Saudi government.
* Because we are so much more powerful militarily they can't attack us head-on.
That *was* a head-on attack. There was no difference between what they did, and if they had launched a couple cruise missiles at us.
It's important for Americans to understand what this is really about.
I'll tell you what it's all about: It's about borders, language, and culture.
The islamic extremists want to kill us because we do not worship Allah in the way they say is right.
They want to kill us because of our language.
They want to kill us because we let our women walk around with their faces, and *OMG* skin exposed.
They want to kill us simply because we exist in our own way.
They want to kill us because we uphold our promise to Israel that we made half a century ago.
This has nothing to do with our generalized foreign policy. They don't want us to change that, they want us to die.
Do you really think that if we cut off Israel from our aid, that the islamic extremists would simply stop?
Maybe they would, after all of America converted to islamic extremists.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Taking an isolated event out of historical context and...you have an excellent point to use during a debate.
Look at the same point in context of WHO attacked who and your point suffers miserably...
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
WWII, WWI had definite ends (surrender of Germany and Japan), the fighting was basically over at Appomatox (sp?) in the Civil War which lead to capitulation of the South (hold outs like Jesse James became outlaws), in Vietnam we gave up and pulled out. Korea is a fuzzy case, but the truce is still holding.
THe problem with terrorism is the same as that of software bugs; how do you PROVE they have been completely defeated? How do we know what our political leaders and intelligence services are telling us about terrorism is correct, and not just a political ploy to get funding or win elections (or suspend or steal elections)?
This is a scary position the US is in. I personally would take the extra risk and be a little less 'secure' from terrorists to keep a tight leash on the gov't.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
[sarcasm]
I totally support that point of view:
Let's kill all the people who we think could kill someone in the future, then we'll be safe.
[/sarcasm]
One shall speak only if what one has to say is more beautiful than silence
Today at our school is read-white-blue day. Well, I'm wearing my libertarian T-Shirt of the bill of rights (Void where prohibited by law).
My classes are starting to read the Crucible (by Arthur Miller.) Many see it as an over-hyped play about the salem witch trials. However, it is a chronicle of how our country (always) seems to over-react to things that may be contrary: Witches, Africans, Commies, Aids Victims/Gays, Terorists, [insert other items here].
The discussions so far today (I'm having my prep period now -- Probably I'll get reprimanded by the administration for using the computer for personal use. Side note: The district has gone Big Brother with computers and cameras (we are a small district in a town of 1500 people), and yes, big brother is here watching.) As I was saying...
The discussions today have been remarkable. Students don't seem (at least by their comments - We're talking Juniors in high school here.) to want to live in a society that the government seems to be pushing us.
Take Miller's Comment in the text of his play: And throw in this AP story Anyway, I'm a bastard for talking bad about america at this moment. Hopefully, I'll still have a job tomorrow.
al
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
Three air raids on Iraqi air defense installations in /one/ week? Including an unusually large one that, reportedly, involved over twenty American and British airplanes? The stockpiling of munitions in the region has also been noted.
/possibly/ imply.
If I were Saddam, I would probably have at least a twitching in my eye at this point, and would probably be looking for ways to stall.
Way 1 -- "negotiate" about weapons inspectors. First, allow reporters, politicians, and other non-experts there, and lead them around on a leash. Then, say that _in principle_ they could be let in, but then there's the sovereignty issue so the palaces should be off-limits, and for logistics reasons the inspectors need to first present a schedule, and then there's the demand for showing good faith via a promise to lift the sanctions and drop the war talk. Then stall further. Mistakes are made, inspectors get denied access at times, renovations block areas...
Way 2 -- Remind Bush that Ariel Sharon is Israel's head of state, that Sharon has nukes despite the official Israeli denials, and that Sharon isn't the type of guy to hold back just because Bush says so. And then Bush can use his imagination as to what that could
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
The Widow Beemer has copywrited all words having to do with this event formerly known as nineeleven
It's a fundamental fact that the US seems to have missed entirely. Bush just doesn't get it at all, I guess that's why he's now after Iraq, it's a real country that can be defeated by the military, I suppose it's something he can understand, nevermind that it won't have any effect on terrorist networks other than to stir them up.
He's sent in the B52s, the marines, the helicopter gunships, the fighter bombers, the cruise missiles and to give them their dues, they did blow up some $50 tents.
Like sand in the wind, they vanished. But Al Quaeda still exists, still infiltrating countries, still making plans, stockpiling weapons, pushing it's agenda, inspiring the faithful.
Terrorists work from within their target populations. They are the guy down the street. The military is the wrong tool to deal with him and you can't make war on your population.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
The emphasis on religion instead of spirituality is fairly strong evidence of your narrow-mindedness. IMO, religion as such is totally meaningless. It exists solely to support spirituality. And I do consider atheism a form of spirituality, but I suppose that's debatable. As for stating who lives or dies, I don't necessarily agree with you. I mean obviously it can't be totally arbitrary, but I believe that God understands that we can't just allow people to get away with murdering almost three thousand people. God takes care of His/Her house; we take care of ours.
-Perrin.
Now I want you to go in that bag and find my lightsaber. It's the one that says bad mother-fscker on it.
Terrorism is any act designed to cause fear or terror in a given group of people. It doesn't even have to be a violent motion, the simple act of waving a grenade arround in a crowd is an act of terrorism.
The WTC attacks were acts of terrorism. And unlike a single plane crashing in tokyo (which one would assume is not being piloted by terrorists) the WTC attacks involved 4 planes intentionaly flown off course.
As for millitary vs terrorism, even if you buy your definitions, what about all the civilians on the planes themselves? Or the civilians in the streets below? Are those also legitamte military targets?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
To some it may appear that way,
US shot down passenger plane
There's a lot of good stuff on plane hijacking and the locaby bombing.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Both.
When I was a small child, I was taught to not approach the cute little bear cubs that would sometimes wander close to my parent's vacation home in the spring time. Yes, it was our property, and yes, bears can be destructive, but the cub was doing what cubs do, which, in and of itself, was not harming anything. Mama bear, of course, was expected to be close behind.
So it is when dealing with the affairs of others. OBL attacked the U.S. ostensibly because of American presence in Saudi Arabia, which he repeatedly denounced.
Executive Summary: When your government, put in place either through your winning electoral choice, or your acceptance of a democratic process pisses someone off, you increase your risk of dying.
Right or wrong, heinous or noble, justified or not -- such words vulnerable to the winds of propaganda matter didly squat to your corpse rotting at the bottom of a pile of rubble.
So, you must chose carefully, those acts in which you, or your representatives engage, for you will be faced with the burden of defending against their consequences. This does not mean that one should cower and hide in the face of those who disagree with what you believe are your rights, but it does mean you should pick wisely when chosing what's worth risking death at the hands of those you enrage.
Somehow, I have a hard time believing any sane American who values his or her freedoms would accept that U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia were worth the loss of some 3000 lives or the liberty-suspending measures purported to to be able to prevent such a loss in the future.
Sometimes, it IS better to let the bully have his corner of the sandbox -- if you're willing to fight him lest he cross some arbitrary line in the dirt, let him pick the line and see if it is all that unreasonable. Then you can defend both your turf and the moral high ground.
P.S. You know, as an aside, I chuckle about the semantic hack OBL pulled: the U.S. can't declare "war" war against an individual, only a nation, and so can't legally muster the "war-mode" enabling powers it otherwise could. Yet it clearly faces a situation that any sane person would clearly interpret as an "act of war". Heh, doublespeak bites the usual government mouthpiece on the ass. I'll leave it to the gentle reader to decide whether that's adding insult to injury or poetic justice, dripping in bloody irony.
You could've hired me.
May 4, 1970: US National Guard troops open-fire on unarmed college students, killing four. Not a natural disaster or engineering malfunction. This was mass-murder.
Since no one else has stepped forward yet, let me be the first to say thank you for your efforts.
Even though your servers are often used to express opinions that you disagree with, or even find revolting.
Even though there are probably many times when it doesn't seem worth the effort.
Even though you and your staff sometimes seem to be the most criticized people on here, after Bill Gates anyways.
Keep up the good work. We all appreciate it, even if it isn't said very often.
At least mafia-owned pizzarias make excellent pizza. Compare to Bill Gates.
As the events that happened shocked the world, and as most of us were to stunned to do anything productive, the /. staff busted there backs to keep us informed. /. readers and posters, loaded there system with posts of sorrow, rage, and confusion, they found ways to get around the technicall problems, to keep us updated.
/., but I will always remember who kept me informed.
/., I salute you.
While we, the
I, like many readers, have had my issues with
To the staff at
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You know, Muslims are supposed to tolerate other religions. Muhammad forbade anyone to attack Christians and Jews, unless in Self-defense.
Look at the via dolarosa. Thousands of Christians go and walk the path that Jesus was said to have walked. It goes straight through the Muslim part of town, and I haven't heard of any problems.
The Saudis, Iranians, and the Afghanis are a poor example of Islam. A real Islamic government is expected to treat minority religious groups fairly. Any oppression, of women or other religions is plainly wrong, which is why the governments aren't considered Islamic.
What exactly are some of the nasty things the Muslims of the area do?
I understand your point. I, too, think sometimes memorials can be overdone. There's one thing to remember here. Even though you were one of the ones most directly affected, you are not alone. Everyone in the country was affected by the loss of innocence that results from being attacked for the first time on the soil of the contiguous states. Thousands of people lost family members. Millions (probably) lost friends and neighbors and co-workers. That kind of pain does not go away lightly.
There are always going to be jerks who try to profit off the emotions of others. Live with it. That doesn't mean that the memorials are worthless. It's a milestone for us to examine how the event changed us and decide if we like what we find.
Ben
Am I the only one who gets that feeling in their stomach every time slashdot is down or is slow to respond. I mean, besides that fact that it's delaying my fix, but that there could be a lot of sudden traffic that could be indicative of another major event? Every time I click to load or reload slashdot and it is delayed, I get a little worried. Am I the only one who does this?
mp3's are only for those with bad memories
I'm amazed at the yellow-bellied reposnses I see here today. You're desperately hoping that if you just extend an olive branch to these people that they'll leave you alone.
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the flag icon for this subject only has 12 stripes?
People seem to have an amazing amount of trouble with this... I've seen several flag stickers on cards that have 14 stripes, have the stripes in the wrong order, have a totally tweaked aspect ratio, and so on.
Sorry, I am not going to fall for your little tactic. You originally said
"Whether you are christian, muslim, jew or otherwise, the common thread is that man does not determine who lives and dies, god does.".
First of all, "otherwise" means everything else, which doesn't necessarily mean religion. You should be more clear.
Second, I don't know of any religion that says "man decides who lives and dies", nor one that says "god decides who lives and dies". So by posing a false question, you are assured to get the answer you want. You are putting the ideals of religions into your own words, to suit your own purposes. But don't feel bad, it has been done for generation upon generation, you aren't the first. You have PRECISELY illustrated my point. Thank you.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I plan on doing two things today:
1. Not turning on the TV for any reason whatsoever
2. Giving some cash to the EFF
I may make those actions my annual observance of "Patriot Day". Someone's got to look out for the public -- they don't even know they are under attack by their own government.
You're not the only one sick of the knee-jerk, draconian jingoism which is destroying our liberties. It's just an unpopular thing to say. The worst part? Last night it dawned on me that the terrorists have already won: we're a scared nation, attacking our own citizenry by way of "defense".
Anyway, I'm sad about what happened but enough is enough. I'm as proud as anyone to be American, and I love my country dearly, but something actually constructive needs to be done. And if I hear the word "Homeland" one more goddam time...
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
Very true. In the same light, let's look at the issue at hand - Bin Ladin and his pyromaniac fremen did not just decide to set alight the World Trade Centers, you know. We take your advice, look at the context, and see that the reason why they are attacking the US might have something to do with the fact that their whole lives and those of their friends, family and everyone they have ever met has been affected for the worse because of American policies in the region where they live.
I look at the issue objectively, and this is what I see. Not that I care one bit for the Arabs and their "causes" to kill thousands of civilians. Neither do I care for Americans who had to kill thousands of Afghan civilians because they got hit by the terrorism they had been funding and lashing onto other nations for so long.
Sorry if this is a little harsh on the day of remembering the people who perished. I feel for them as I feel for the people of Hiroshima and Bosnia, as I feel for those who died in Nazi concentration camps. Still, you guys need to wake up from this "they are evil, we are good" crap and realize that it's your state's own clumsy meddling in international politics that turned to bite you this time. Yes, I agree completely that things need to be seen in their context. And this is the context created by the USA, with its merits and its perils.
Summary of evidence against Osama bin Laden in 9/11 terror attacks
Chronology of Tuesday, September 11, 2001
Last 20? Try the last few thousand.
Start with Alexander the Great circa 300 BC and move forward. Scythians, White Huns, Turks, Arabs and Persians all took the place over at one time or another. And that was just in the first thousand years or so. Add to that a guy named Mahmud of Ghazni and Genghis Kahn. Then there were some petty warlords. Then the Brits. Then the Russians (not once, not twice, but at least three major times).
This area is the crossroads of Asia. It's pretty much been shit on throughout human history.
Now, what they really need is a few decades of peace to get their feet under them, build a stable tradition of government and society with the help of (but not the control of) other, more powerful nations. I don't think this is going to happen -- Bush might have had Karzi over for the State of the Union, but it looks like we're already about done with our "rebuilding" effort and are getting ready to go bomb another Arab state.
Afghanistan could be the US's great ally in the region. We could provide modern construction equipment to rebuild their infrastructure and help from development advisors. We could give full-ride scholarships to five thousand prospective Afghani teachers each year. We could help them without trying to dictate a culture or a market or a way of life.
If we could pay attention and help them out the way, say, we helped Isreal in the last 60 years, there's a pretty good chance we'd seem like less of an evil bully and more a helpful neighbor. The dirty secret, of course, is that's how you stop terrorists -- you take away their appeal to the common people so they look more like Ted Kazinskis than George Washingtons to those they're trying to persuade.
Instead, it looks like we're already searching for another anthill to kick over. Bombing the fuck out of vastly inferior militaries might be fun in the short run, but it's counterproductive over a longer term.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
To the people who lost loved ones: all the best and I hope you'll find the strength to move on.
That aside, the whole thing is getting on my nerves. I'm living in The Netherlands, Europe and our press tends to show us different news than what's just on CNN. And there is a lot more to tell than the 'We are the best' stuff, aired on CNN and other patriotic channels.
- Widows of foreign workers who died in the massacre on 9/11/2001, will be deported out of the country. Because they were allowed to stay in the USA due to their husbands job, because that husband is dead now, the widows have to leave... pronto. Excuse me?
- Remember all the innocent people still in jail, ONE YEAR after the disaster, without a trial. At least 500 men are still held in custody without a trial or accusation that they committed a crime and that they will be trialed at a later date. Nothing, they are just held into custody. No offence, but isn't that the same system 3rd world dictators use to keep the people doing what they want? It's definitely NOT part of any reasonable definition of 'democracy' and 'freedom'.
- The CIA hasn't found any evidence against Saddam Hussein concerning Al Quayda. Remember: the laws the USA government pushed through congress after Sept. 11th, were for the war on terror (which is understandable). However, using these same laws, the current USA government is trying to use sept.11th and the results of that horrible crime to go after Saddam. You might think: "I don't care what reason they use", but that's the beginning of the end: if a certain government with a lot of guns (the USA) starts to dislike another government, it shouldn't result in instant war, there should be a certain control in place. That's now gone, due to the US PATRIOT act and other shabby laws.
There are a lot of countries where people suffer due to the crimes committed by the governments of these countries, however the USA doesn't do a damn thing about THAT, like a lot of countries in Africa. (except selling guns of course). Let sept.11 be a landmark of how bad foreign policy can turn out and let it be a starting point to work on a solid WORLD where people understand eachother, instead of just kill whatever isn't compatible to a certain christian-right-wing policy cooked up in the white-house.
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Screw world peace. What the hell is world peace worth when radicals feel free to attack innocent civilians? Justice, si, not peace, is what is needed. Without justice, there can be no peace.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
Well, there's no way to know for sure, now is there? If they keep someone locked up in secret with no trial or legal representation, how would we (the public) ever find out if they were a terrorist or not?
Here's a piece of an article I found. Just follow the link to read the rest and the comments people have made.
~enjoy
OSAMA BIN LADEN WAS BAD APPLE,
JUST LIKE JIM JONES
http://www.odwyerpr.com/0905osama.htm
Saudi Arabia says it is a full partner in President Bush's "war on terror," and a victim of terrorism, according to a document that Patton Boggs has distributed to staffers on Capitol Hill.
The Embassy's "Background FAQ" deals with "hot button" issues such as "Saudi Support for Osama bin Laden," "Alleged Saudi Funding for Terrorism," "Saudi Freezing of Assets," "Saudi Education System and Anti-Americanism," "Saudi Arabia and Suicide Bombers," and "Stability in Saudi Arabia."
Here are highlights:
Re: bin Laden. "Osama bin Laden is a dissenter who has taken the side of evil. His citizenship was revoked in the early 1990s on account of his irresponsible acts and he remains unpopular among our citizens. As a nation, we are horrified by his actions and we reject what he and his followers stand for. They are deviants and criminals whose actions we strongly reject. People must understand that we are also victims of Osama bin Laden's terrorist acts."
Re: terror funding. "The Crown Prince has said unequivocallyâ"âNo honorable man would accept terrorism.' Saudi Arabia does not support or contribute to terrorism. We never have, and we never will. Terrorism is against our religion and culture, and we have been victims of it for the past four decades. We monitor all financial transactions to ensure that no money goes to evildoers."
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
In my opinion, this is a bit myopic and shouldn't be given such a high score.
We're talking about people who think it's OK to kill thousands of civilians and actively seek to do so. This isn't just "misguided," it's just plain wrong, but these people have all but been programmed to think this way.
I'm not trying to start something nasty here, but there have been over a thousand Civilian deaths in Afganistan so far, and some reports say up to three thousand.
You keep mentioning "these people" and how they all deserve death for "cheering" others death... Do you, in retrospect, also deserve death for cheering their death? One has to be very careful not to become just what they are fighting agasint.
Not to mention, if the US armies sweep across the globe, killing all leaders that bush sees as "evil", we're going to make a lot more people hate us.. childen whos parents have died in anti-terrorist operations, civilians that got in the way.. etc. Its a perfect way to ensure future terrorists. Personally I'd like to know real reasons on why the USA is so hated by so many people across the globe, and don't tell me its becasue "they hate our freedom", its a wonder every time i see GWB say that with a straight face.
I think this whole issue is a Lot more complex than having a simple "kill them all" solution. If we are supposed to be the most advanced and cultured society in the history of the earth, i'm sure we can do better than that.
I may be modded down for this by some who think a second opinion is a bad thing, but i can't help but post this here. This is what i feel and i beleive its valid.
On the anniversary of September, 11
2001, I want to talk about the difference between the victims onboard
the first three airliners and the heroes onboard flight 93. What was
the difference? Why did the people on flight 93 fight back? Why did
the people on the other planes just sit and die?
The answer comes down to communication and how knowledge forced the
passengers to change their survival strategy. Everyone wants to
live. Until 9/11/01 the best known strategy for surviving an airline
hijacking was to sit in your seat, cooperate with the hijackers, and
wait it out. That strategy worked because until 9/11/01 hijackers were
trying to get hostages to trade for concessions and publicity. But,
that changed on 9/11/01. On that day the hijackers wanted airliners to
use as weapons. And, they counted on the passengers sitting in their
seats and being cooperative to allow the plan to work.
On flight 93, the passengers fought back. Why? Because they knew that
three other hijacked airliners had been used as weapons and everyone
on board them had died. When they knew they were onboard a weapon
their survival strategy changed and the scope of their survival
strategy also changed. Their choices no longer affected only their own
lives. Now, theei actions also affected the lives of hundreds or thousands
of people on the ground.
Given the choice of sitting quietly in their seats and waiting for
death or fighting and having a chance to live, they chose to fight for
their lives and the lives of the people on the ground. They knew that
if they won they would live and so would an unknown number of people
on the ground who were targeted by the weapon they were flying on. They
also knew that they could die and still save people on the ground. At
that point the correct thing to do, the moral thing to do, the action
that saved the most lives, was to fight. They fought.
We that given the same choice many people through
out history chose to do nothing and died as cowards and victims. Those
who chose to fight we deservedly call heroes.
But all that misses the whole point. The reason that the heroes of
flight 93 fought is that they knew they had to fight or die. They knew
because there was an air to ground phone on the back of the chair in
front of them and they used them to find out what was going on. It was
free, unregulated, communication that made the difference. It was that
basic freedom to communicate that let them know they needed to
fight. It was that same that let us know they did fight. It was their right to be
informed that let them become heroes.
As people who use the Internet, the most free and open communication
media every developed, we are honor bound to fight. To fight any
attempt to reduce the freedom to communicate. To fight to spread the
right of freedom of information and communication to everyone in the
world.
Flight 93 proved to the world that free people given accurate
knowledge of their situation will make heroic choices and take heroic
actions. Are we heroes who can make the same choices? Will we fight to
protect and extend the right to communicate that allowed the heroes of
flight 93 to become heroes?
I hope so. I believe so. Let's roll.
Stonewolf
And you're worried about being humane why?
The only reason I oppose the death penalty is because it's hypocritical to say "don't kill people or we'll kill you". That is the government putting themselves in the place of god, and personally I don't have any need for god to begin with, in holy or governmental form.
On the other hand, "don't kill people or we'll remove you from society" is a completely fair thing to do, and not at all hypocritical. Of course the counter-argument is that we lock people up for kidnapping and detaining people "unlawfully" but hey, you have to do something with them, and if one of the basic arguments is that killing people is wrong, it seems ridiculous to kill people as punishment.
I don't think you necessarily have to put them in a cell by themselves for the rest of their lives, but you do have to lock them up for the rest of their lives. If you kill them, you give them surcease; My vote is to put them in a big cage surrounded (At a distance) by video walls displaying scenes of the suffering 24/7.
If you're feeling humane, unlike the offenders, you can turn the sound off at night.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Write on!
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
You think your "objectivity" grants you license to illuminate the real reasons for the attacks on Sept. 11. You suggest that American foreign policy is so nefarious, so wicked that two gigantic stuctures and thousands of innocent civilians should die as some sort of repayment.
Remember that you're living in a nation run by imperfect humans who make diplomatic decisions every day. Where are you from anyway? Think about your largest city, and the two largest buildings in that city. Now, in your mind, bring those buildings down and crush the thousands working there, one by one, in the process. Think about all the funerals for the EMS workers, all the unknown heroes who will perish in that single act of "justice". Now, remember, you deserved it. Go down to ground zero wearing a plaquard reading "Our Own Foreign Policy Did This. It's Our Fault." I have no doubt your fellow countrymen would give you more than a black eye.
Any suggestion that unknown or plainly obvious foreign policy decisions led to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, and that these attacks were somehow justified because of such corrupt foreign policy, is completely assanine.
Don't be too eager to deal out death, but do it if you have to. Gandalf deals out his share of death.
The Moore-Murphy Law: The number of things that will go wrong will double every 2 years.
Seems to be the point of the poster was that Japan had a long history of agressive & atrocious behavior which stopped soon after some very firm and significant pressure was applied in the form of several megatons of explosives.
It's a good point to note: tit for tat leads to ongoing conflict, while massive retaliation generally gets the message across more succinctly and saves lives in the long run.
Frightening, yes, but historically accurate.
New Hampshire State motto.
One of the few states that remember that small government is better, and what the constitution is all about (though Vermont has us beat.)
You are a coward. Better to die a free man than live as a slave.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Please, stop telling that America is so great. America is every bit as stupid, selfish, jealous, paranoid and incompetant as any other country. And it's considerable more brutal, repressive and intolerant than many.
I am so tired of this bullshit. The USA is by far the best behaved super power the world has ever known. Anyone who claims any different is blinding themselves to the real truths of history. You tell me one world power, who at their prime, was better behaved than the USA? Not one other country comes even remotely close. No it isn't a perfect country and yes many of its policies suck ass, but your claim is completely without merit.
We has a world have come a long ways in the last 50 years... a long ways. We still have a long ways to go.
--- I do not moderate.
No time to track down a link now (sorry), but it turned out that the journalist was giving out treats to the crowd in exchange for getting them to "celebrate."
If you don't have the link, then you are trolling.
The footage of the Palestinians celebrating was not disputed even by the Palestinian representatives in Rammalah. One of them was trying to tell us that "they didn't really know about the victims." I didn't buy it then, I still don't buy it...
By your same reasoning, President Bush is also privileged, elite, and college-educated. Does that make him the least bit intelligent?
September 11 (1973) US-backed coup overturns democratically elected government in Chile, leading to thousands of deaths, tortures and "disappearances"
My father was there. He was listening to the radio as democratically elected Aliende prepared to defend his country with his life. Even knowing that he had no chance, he armed himself and stood in front of the seat of the govenrment to fend off the coup with his own hands.
Would Bush have done the same? Would any recent U.S.president?
If some foreign force invaded DC, would any recent president -- knowing it would be certain death -- have the cojones to deffend his nation? Or would he run and hide?
My parents were both in Brazil durring the U.S.-backed military dictatorship there. My father got a first-hand look at just how involved the U.S. was in that affair.
My father and I now work to change U.S. policy so that maybe someday the rest of the world won't have a reason to hate us. Patriotism is loving your country enough to see its faults -- and try and fix them.
t'nera semordnilap
First I'd like to say I abhor the racism that you have experienced. Thank you for sharing your experiences, its very widespread and something that most Americans don't acknowledge.
A friend just related a story to me the other day about going through a toll booth and the attendant saying "We're going to get you and your friends."
I am curious about the statement you made:
the only true muslim (as I am not) ally doesn't play games with USA
This doesn't seem to be the case as far as I can see, I'd love to hear your feedback. Turkey has and will continue to use its strategic location with respect to Iraq and as a path for a pipeline for Caspian oil to gain US support and silence for its suppression of the Kurds. It is very clear that a condition of use of bases in Turkey to remove the Iraqi regime is that a Kurdish state not be formed from northern Iraq.
People are passionate about their beliefs. Beliefs often define who a person is and what their culture/society stands for. If you don't share their beliefs, you are in essence telling them that they are wrong and ignorant and that their culture has little or no value. At best, since you don't "convert" you are saying your way is superior.
The United States is the strongest military power in the world, bar none. We've budgeted more $$ for defense in 2003 than countries 2-16 combined! Our culture is pervasive. Go to Taiwan and you'll see a Starbucks and McDonalds on almost every corner. Levi's, Coca Cola and Disney are mega-sellers in almost every country with an economy. It is nothing to see people in Europe and the Middle East bitching about "Americans" while swilling a Coke and sitting in a pair of Western jeans.
Mao Tse Tung called them "Sugar Coated Bullets" -- American cultural icons like Disney and Coke spreading thru China. Like the Playboy store in ShangHai.
France, during the 80s, refused to ratify the GATT treaty until there were restrictions (quotas) put on American movies, television and music imports. France is especially sensative of their culture and diminished global influence.
In short (too late!), American culture is taking over the world. We aren't forcing it, people choosed what they like. Other cultures are getting forced out and feel threatened. The resulting fear turns to hatred of America and Americans. We are a "corrupting" influence. And we do take for granted freedoms and benefits others can only dream of.
Many European politicians are not defined by their beliefs -- they simply pick the opposite side of what America chooses, regardless.
In closing, for those that would argue to live and let live, that only works if EVERYONE does it and regardless of what direction America takes, we will piss off SOMEONE.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Here is the link that should have been in the above article, to snopes urban legend site.
http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/cnn.htm
To try it again as a referenced link, go
here .
make world, not war
Here's how it works
gerry adams (who many belive to be political) was in Eira and the UK government wanted to put him on trial in the UK because of a nail bombing in brixton. because Sien Fain? in terrorist and he's the leader of Sien Fain.
You refuse because but say he can goto another catholic country to be tried.
The UK government says your not playing fair and that the your goverment is allied with gerry adams and also terrorist, they then bomb the fuck out of your country.
Now this would have to have happened a few years ago but it's not that far from what the US have done.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
"The U.S.'s war in Afghanistan has killed thousands of civilians. War against Iraq would probably kill an order of magnitude more Iraqis. Where does that fall on your moral scale?"
We're not the ones actively targeting civillians. We're not the ones hiding behind civillians. Hell, we're the ones actively trying to find genuine military targets to strike.
We've invaded Afghanistan. Unlike the previous regime, we're not actively raping and pillaging our enemy civillian populations. We're not forcing our moral system on others (note that Afghanistan probably won't have anything resembling the First Amendment in the forseeable future).
Are the civillian deaths regrettable? Yes. Should we try to avoid them whenever we can. Yes. But, unlike our enemies, we do regret the civillian deaths (instead of cheering them) and we do try to avoid killing them whenever we can (instead of making sure they're in the cross-fire).
I fail to see how current US military actions fall into the same catetory.
This whole discussion reminds me of something Orwell once brought up: Freedom of speech hinders the war efforts of democratic societies and ultimately aid their non-democaratic enemies. And before you jump to conclusions, I'm not saying "do away with freedom of speech for the war effort," I'm just trying to point out that a year ago, if you publicly spoke out against al Qaeda and Taliban actions against civillians in Afghanistan, you'd be long dead by now. Maybe you should consider that before you start lumping us all together in one category next time.
(I am now predicting at least three responses to this post mentioning the name "Aschroft")
How about: How many /.'s will rethink the competence
of the CIA and NSA covert SIGINT after 9/11?
From rossz (link to article):
The biggest casualty will probably be our Constitution. Whenever a tragedy likes this occurs, the government always announces a get tough on terrorists policy that will have no effect on the psychopaths who do this, but will severely limit our rights.Hole in One, rossz!
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
Well, if we live in constant fear of being killed, and therefore cannot travel, work or even leave our homes...can you truly call that Freedom?
Cold as it may sound, I would consider this a personal choice and/or problem. There are many places in the world were terrorism is a daily occurance, and yet they manage to leave thier houses to goto work, go on vacations and generally live thier lives.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
- "We" (the giant corporate military industrial complex of the "west",
including the world bank, IMF, WTO, etc.) systematically oppress,
murder and enslave entire countries full of innocent people.
- We install our own dictatorships in these countries (e.g. Indonesia,
Iraq, etc.) while parcelling up their resources among 1st-world
megacorporations, many of which have larger operating budgets than
entire countries.
- We force these countries to accept "free trade", meaning we make
them remove all import tarriffs, and then flood their economy with
cheap products and staple foods. Just like when a Wal-Mart moves in
next door, the local artisans/farmers cannot compete, and they and
their children must give up the farm and move into the city to work
for subsistence wages under inhumane conditions in factories for
Gap, Nike, etc.
- Anyone who tries to resist this is called a "communist" (or maybe
now they'll be called an "Al Qaeda sympathizer") and is subject to
imprisonment, torture, and murder. These are people who've somehow
gotten the crazy idea that a country's natural resources might
actually be used to benefit its *own* citizens. They don't realize
that their lot in life is to shut up and be cheap labor.
- We force these countries to take out massive loans to buy our
imported goods--loans they will never be able to repay.
- In addition to providing the capital for the loans, U.S. taxpayers
money goes into "aid packages" for these now destitute countries.
The aid packages are earmarked for buying food and goods from
western megacorporations. This is another way in which the system
works to channel our money to the corporations.
- If anyone gets out of line, we don't have a problem using weapons of
mass distruction against their citizens (a million people have died
radiation-related deaths in Iraq since 1991 because we rained
thousands of tons of depleted uranium bombs and shells over the
whole southern half of the country). After all, making us
taxpayers support a massive military system (of historically
unprecented size) is another major way in which the system feeds our
money to the industrial complex.
- On 9/11, some assholes out there (we don't have the monopoly on
evil) manage to succeed in attacking the monetary system that rules
the world. Over 3000 "collateral" casualties also result.
- The response? Use this as a great excuse to (a) remove some more
civil liberties from us (an educated, free-thinking populace is the
*real* enemy of tyranny), and also (b) channel more of our money
into our military machine.
- Anyone who tries to point out any of the above is basically called a
traitor. After all, "you're either with us or against us". As if
even trying to understand what's going on is treasonous!
If you are intrigued by any of this and want to investigate for
yourself (don't believe me--I'm just regurgitating this stuff), you
might like to look at John Pilger's new book "The New Rulers of the
World", or any of his earlier stuff. Also, the copious writings of
Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and even Gore Vidal are great places to
start.
If you are unwilling to open your eyes, you'll probably just call me a
"communist" or an "Al Queda sympathizer" (I am neither). While it
shouldn't be necessary, I nevertheless feel compelled to stress that I
do not condone the 9/11 attacks, nor do I think the people killed on
that day "deserved to die", or that the terrorists were justified in
doing it. I also think that it was counterproductive to their cause,
as all violence is. I just wish people would be willing to see that
we ourselves have been, and are again contemplating, waging extended
campaigns of violence in the world that dwarf the events of 9/11. We
still have a chance to change our ways.
"One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, or something like that."
Yes, there are infinite shades of gray in between, but there is an absolute black and absolute white in the world. That's the basis for ideas like the Geneva Conventions and Hague Accords (two things that al Qaeda have actively sought to violate). After all, Hitler was just liberating the Fatherland from the Jewish scourge...
"You are not doing them a favour by killing them."
Yes, I am. That was my whole argument. Death by legal injection is likely the only humane solution to them.
"How many old enemies are now willing to go that much further because of it?"
Depends on the potential new enemies and how you kill them. Thought experiment: What if we happen to capture bin Laden alive? What if we put him on trial and then broadcast the trial live over Voice of America?
I wonder if there would be so many anti-American zealots in the Islamic world today if their government-controlled media outlets let them, say, learn about how the US courts are bending over backwards to give Moussaoui a fair trial. If this were the Saudi legal system, he'd probably have been beheadded months ago.
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/2002/09/05_S tepford.html
September 5, 2002
Stepford Citizen Syndrome: Top 10 Signs Your Neighbor is Brainwashed
by Maureen Farrell
Though much of the world is convinced the 2000 election was a coup d'etat, and many believe we're being lied to regarding 9/11, we Americans are unaware of how numb we seem. Not only are we being coerced into World War III, but at this very moment, unnamed souls are secretly locked away, the Army's drafted plans for civilian detention camps and there's a shadow government buzzing beneath our streets. And yet, we continue to ignore the oily elephant in the living room.
The administration's Iraq war dance is likewise baffling, particularly when Dick Cheney says Saddam can't be trusted -- even though, not too long ago, he was trusted to the tune of $73 million during Halliburton/Iraq transactions. Moreover, newly discovered memos reveal that Cheney was also involved in a 1975 cover-up involving the CIA's mind-control experiment, MK-ULTRA. Back then, the government paid $750,000 restitution to Army biochemist Dr. Frank Olson's family, after admitting the CIA slipped Dr. Olson LSD days before his 1953 fall from a New York City building. When the Ford administration finally came clean, they promised they'd revealed everything. Yet according to an article in the "Mercury News," (Scientist's death haunts family, August 8, 2002) key officials, including White House aides Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld pushed to continue to conceal information.
But not only has the government tried to control people's minds, they've copped to controlling the media, too. Operation Mockingbird, the CIA's plan to infiltrate America's newsrooms, was such a success that former CIA director William Colby boasted, "the Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any major significance in the major media." Carl Bernstein substantiated this, revealing that hundreds of journalists and news organizations were involved in this subversion. And though officials have admitted to planting fabrications in the past, it seems they're still at it. Remember the story about the terrorist's passport surviving the fiery crash into the World Trade Center? What could that be but government-issued pabulum? And what else but full-scale public brainwashing accounts for the rash of Stepford Citizen Syndrome spreading throughout the country?
Which brings us to the case in point. Researchers have identified the following symptoms. If you overhear anyone making the following statements, assume they've been brainwashed and intervene immediately:
1) "George Bush is a decent man."
Abraham Lincoln once said, "[I]f you want to test a man's character, give him power." If he steals power, however, the nature of his character is no longer in question. This week's out of court settlement with the NAACP over Florida's foray into election fraud confirms BBC's Greg Palast's report that the election was rigged. Yet pundits ignore this travesty, while referring to Dubya's decency in much the same way our ancestors spoke of Earth's flatness. Overlooking our thrice-arrested president's blatant disregard for civil rights, human rights and the environment, they continue to downplay scandals and downgrade their role as protectors of the public trust. But with oft-repeated quips like, "lucky me, I hit the trifecta" and "if this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier," G.W. offers a glimpse at his indecent inner frat boy. Especially revealing was a Talk Magazine interview, in which he mimicked death row inmate Karla Faye Tucker. "Please," Bush whimpered, mocking Tucker's plea for clemency, "don't kill me." Gallows humor is only funny when those telling jokes don't have the power to save people from the gallows.
2) "I have faith in our system of checks and balances."
Certainly, the uproar over Operation TIPs and recent court decisions on FBI abuses and secret deportation hearings are healthy signs. Except, of course, that controversial findings against Ashcroft's Justice Department will most likely be appealed before the same felonious five who handed down the 2000 selection. Chief Justice Rehnquist has already warned that, "in times of war, the laws are silent." Then, too, though the Constitution grants Congress the sole right to declare war, since 1948, America has been involved in approximately 250 military incursions without one single declaration of war. The Bush regime has already said they don't need Congress' approval on Iraq. So much for checks and balances.
3) "We have to defend ourselves, and the war on terrorism is the only way to do that."
Anyone who believes this war is simply a drive to eradicate terrorism must be brainwashed. The U.S. has been building military bases along proposed oil pipeline routes, and has its eye on the oil and gas reserves in the Caspian Sea region. All anyone need do is read Zbigniew Brzezinski's "The Grand Chessboard" or brush up on the Wolfowitz Doctrine to understand the not-so-hidden agenda behind U.S foreign policy. In a recent appearance on Crossfire, Insight Magazine's Jamie Dettmer deftly addressed America's aim to control the oil fields in Iraq. "Nobody has suggested the United States is going into Iraq to control the oil," Tucker Carlson asserted, leaving some to wonder if Tucker's bow tie isn't too tight. "Let's not be unsophisticated about this," Dettmer replied, warning that, "in the end, if America doesn't restrain itself, [it's] going to provoke groupings of countries which will restrain America instead."
4) "Since September 11, George Bush has shown strong leaderships skills."
Since September 11, George Bush has led us away from progressive policies and alienated us from the rest of the world. British papers describe the biggest rift between Europe and the U.S. in more than 50 years, 85 percent of Germans no longer trust America, and veteran reporter Helen Thomas bemoans how, "friends and allies wonder what's happened to the United States." Our $7 trillion surplus has followed the president's example and gone AWOL, while unemployment, crime and intellectual numbness are on the rise. Under Bush's "leadership," the U.S. Has become the kid who picks his nose in class. Those of us who love America are embarrassed; others are repulsed.
5) "Europeans don't agree with us because they're effete appeasers."
Europeans don't agree with us because we're wrong. They understand the geopolitical motivations behind this war, as their press isn't as censored. In America, however, stories about Enron's involvement in the proposed oil and gas pipeline though Afghanistan were squashed, and if you wanted to know about the Taliban's trip to Texas, you had to learn about it in the National Enquirer rather than on Meet the Press.
6) "George Bush's administration is filled with solid, foreign policy pros."
Aside from Colin Powell, George Bush's cabinet is swarming with neo-conservative ideologues who'd be clamoring for an attack on Iraq even if the atrocities of 9/11 hadn't occurred. Despite the chorus of countries opposed, Dick Cheney unilaterally forges ahead, while Donald Rumsfeld says he's certain America will receive backing from the international community. Meanwhile, the international community scratches its head and wonders what's become of our once great nation.
7) "George Bush is doing an excellent job in the war on terror."
Given limited media coverage, how would anyone know? Unless one digs through foreign press and alternative media reports, there's little to go by. When one reads reports from journalists like Seymour Hersh, however, a different picture emerges. Stability in Afghanistan is but a myth, warlords carry out atrocities without intervention, and the State Department is forced to guard President Karzai. Meanwhile, many warn that Bush's plans for Iraq could lead to Armageddon. Yet "Bush is doing an excellent job in the war on terror?" How?
8) "People who say the Bush administration 'let 9/11 happen' are conspiracy nuts."
Forget the president's odd behavior on September 11. Ignore that jets weren't scrambled from Andrews Airforce base, or that the FBI reportedly thwarted investigations. Pretend there are no connections between the Bushes, bin Ladens and the Saudis or that Bush #41 doesn't profit from this war through his connections with the Carlyle Group. Imagine, for a moment, it doesn't matter that those heading the closed-door investigation into 9/11 met twice with the former Pakistan intelligence chief, who reportedly helped finance Mohammed Atta. And never mind that, despite warnings, only 14 planes were defending our mainland on September 11. These oddities could be explained through coincidence and incompetence rather than complicity.
That said, remember this: After World War II, the CIA recruited Nazi scientists to share information later used in the aforementioned MK-Ultra program. In the '60s, the Pentagon drafted plans to kill American citizens and blame it on Castro as a pretext for war with Cuba. And Army-based concentration camps aren't merely a gleam in Ashcroft's eye. The brainwashed are conditioned to hear "conspiracy" and shut down, however, immediately deducing information isn't true and the messenger is daft. But even Bill Clinton reportedly asked Webster Hubbell to find answers to two questions: "One, who killed JFK? And, two, are there UFOs? " He never found out. And odds are we won't either. Even so, it's not crazy to demand an independent investigation into 9/11. Nor is it nuts to wonder why the administration is doing everything in its power to make certain we never uncover what went wrong.
9) "The media is liberal."
Ann Coulter complains about the liberal media through the "liberal media," where she's regularly given a forum, yet Michael Moore has appeared on less than a handful of shows, though his book's been a bestseller for six months. During the election, the corporately-controlled media portrayed Al Gore in a negative light, while touting Bush's phony ranch-hand charm, and according to a report in F.A.I.R (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting), 75% of the dominant sources of opinion on all three major networks are Republican. Yet the brainwashed continue to believe the media has a liberal bias. Go figure.
10) "Saddam has weapons of mass destruction!"
This phrase has replaced, "Saddam gassed his own people!" as the #1 mantra of war-mongering dittoheads. But despite former weapons' inspector Scott Ritter's assertion that there's no proof Hussein has amassed weapons of mass destruction, Dick Cheney says there's "no doubt" he's got them and plans to use them. During the Cuban missile crisis, John F. Kennedy relayed photographic evidence proving the Soviet Union was up to no good. Where's the proof now? Why hasn't the administration won over our allies? Why do so many doubt there is "no doubt?"
Latest polls indicate that nearly half of all Americans believe the First Amendment "goes too far," proving that Stepford Citizen Syndrome is now a national crisis. We have an obligation to rouse our loved ones out of their stupor. If we don't, the thugs who've stolen America will steam-roll right over us. And if you can't see that, chances are, you're brainwashed.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Does anyone know why the terrorists chose September 11? I haven't seen it discussed anywhere. I really don't think it is to do with the emergency phone number. I also don't think it had to be that day for logistical reasons. The date is likely to have religious significance. I have my own theory, Read verses "9-11" revelations chapter 14. http://www.awitness.org/biblehtm/re/re14.htm I'll summarise it. "Any who worship the beast will be tormented by fire...and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" Now read this http://www.lis.net.au/~dbird/ifanyworshipbeast.htm
Note that the website was created before 09/11/2001, it explains that "the land of the beast" can be interpreted as the USA.
I just find this all too much of a coincidence. No other group of verses in the revelations fit as perfectly as 9-11.
btw I am not religious at all I just decided to do some research into the significance of the date and came up with the above.
finally, a worthwhile comment on /. now how do i give out mod points?
Tajikistan(?) will probably beat out Iraq once Unocal gets its pipeline through Afghanistan built. (You should also look into Karzai's former executive work and Armitage's former consulting work for *tahdah* Unocal.)
Just heard on the radio that someone where I work (I am off today) wore a T-shirt with GW Bush's make no mistake quote as their tribute to 9/11. They were asked to take it off. My employer denies it, yet the person who wore the T-shirt is on the radio. First off, this is AMERICA! You CANNOT do that! If you ask your emplyees to dress patriotically, to some, it's easier ot go get a t-shirt. That's what they did. This is a totally PC move on their part and stupid beyond belief. I remember on the 12th I had brought some flags to stick on my monitor and my boss asked me why I brought them in (DUH!). AT the time I worked wiht a co-worker who was Islamic. I told him why and he told me I shouldn't have brought them in. I had a discussion with him an dhe realized that he had made a mistake Basically, I said I could take to HR about it if you want....he decided to be quite...that and the multitudes of stupid employers that were doing this were being riducled on the news and talk radio circuit. Funny thing was the muslim I worked with was not offended at all by it and she appreciated me bringing them in. People people people. We need to KILL politacally correctness. It's tearing the country apart. Noone is wrong because they hold a view different than yours and noone's opinion should be supressed. This is America and we have the right to say anything we damn well want! Be it print, a T-shirt, your car or truck or whatever.
Gorkman
"What luck for the rulers that men do not think."
"The victor will never be asked if he told the truth."
"Strength lies not in defence but in attack."
"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."
"The great masses of the people... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one."
It is an exercise to the reader to compare the some of the more prominant ideals in this "All-American" rant to the ideals of the man who made these statements I've quoted here.
And unlike the original poster, I am not a coward.
Why bother.
The reason Japan has not had any agression since WWII is not the pounding they got, it is because of the MARSHAL PLAN.
Some history. After WWI, Germany was pounded into submission, millions killed, all infrastructure destroyed. Internaltional punishment was delt to them. They were oppressed. Germany was reviled, Their people hated world wide. Extremely horrible economic and emotional conditions.
Question: Did that prevent them from starting another war?
Answer: NO!
After WWII, The Marshal plan was implemented in both Germany and Japan. This plan prevented either from building an Army. But it did help both rebuild their economies, their industries, their schools and hospitals. The US and allies spent millions of dollars rebuilding Germany and Japan into modern, capable and respected countries. No oppression. No punishment.
Since then, neither has had any aggression of the type in WWII.
So, by your logic, Germany should have been stopped after WWI. But they weren't, were they. The difference? Rebuild them, respect them. Don't give them an emotional reason to go to war.
Now a question for you. If someone were to beat the crap out of you, a school yard bully (assuming you weren't the school yard bully). Would you sit and cower and pray he goes away, or would you plot vengence? Do you believe other people think any differently that you do on subjects like that?
Learn some history. Learn some psychology. Become a better person.
Peace be with you.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
yes, but at least he didn't whine about it.
MORTAR COMBAT!
how about one second of silence for the one person they missed.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
You keep mentioning "these people" and how they all deserve death for "cheering" others death... Do you, in retrospect, also deserve death for cheering their death? One has to be very careful not to become just what they are fighting agasint.
I think that you are missing one small but important point on this.
Intent.
There is a large gap between targeting a military complex and catching a few innocent people and directly targeting innocent people, who have no military value. While I will grant that the death of a non-military target civilian is sad, it is sometimes unavoidable in war.
And please don't give me that crap about how we shouldn't be fighting wars, and there are no reasons for wars, that is bullshit. Because there are those humans that will try and subjigate others around them, it sometimes becomes necessary to take up arms and defend your soverigenty/freedom. I will grant that this is often taken too far, and that many wars are fought for some pretty bad reasons, but war is a necessity at times. If you are truly that against war, might I suggest that you go back to living your life as a serf for the Queen of England, and allow royalty to have full control over your life. Not I, thank you very much, I feel a lot of gratitude to the men and women that fought and died in the American Revolution.
As for the death of non-military target civilians in a war, this should be avoided as much as possible. In case you missed it, the US military does a lot of work to this end. Its actually a side effect of good military tactics. First, there is the military intellegence, jokes about this being an oxymoron aside, consider the number of bombs that are dropped that do hit valid military targets, its a large number. The only ones that get press though are the ones that either miss, or were mis-directed. The people in MI are human, they screw up, but at least they are trying. Second, dropping bombs on non-miltary targets is a waste of ordanace, it costs money. Not to mention the obvious poilitical ramifications. If the US didn't care about minimizing civilian casualties it would have given up on expensive Laser/TV/IR guided bombs. We can mass produce 500lbs bombs, load up B-52's and carpet bomb a good sized country out of existance. But its not done.
Am I cheering the deaths of the people that our military kills? No, I think its sad that mothers are losing thier sons. However, I am cheering the destruction of the organizations that they are fighting for. If there was an efficent way to bring this all to an end, and not have to kill anyone, I would be all for it. But, I haven't seen one. War, while undesirable, is often the quickest means to peace. If you have a better solution, post it. Diplomacy isn't working. Not getting involved in the Middle East? A nice idea, afterall the Kurds are of no concern to us, better to let the different tribes in the Middle East kill each other off, and then we can deal with the winners. Along the same lines, we should never have gotten involved in the war in Europe. We should have stood by the sidelines waited for the dust to settle, and then started working out trade agreements with the Third Riech. Isolationism, that's the ticket, the US says, "screw the rest of the world, we're not getting involved."
Personally I'd like to know real reasons on why the USA is so hated by so many people across the globe, and don't tell me its becasue "they hate our freedom", its a wonder every time i see GWB say that with a straight face.
I agree that the "they hate our freedom" excues is BS. If you're interested KFI AM640 actually interviewed a top member of a British group that is celebrating the positive outcomes of the 9/11 attacks today. It really was rather enlightening. According to the person interviewed, its not the US, freedom or any other such ideal that is under attack, but instead its any system of law created by man, and not god given. They usually keep some of thier stuff online for a while, and the interview may be there. Listening to this guy was really interesting, he was well spoken, and polite, he wasn't a screaming idiot.
I think this whole issue is a Lot more complex than having a simple "kill them all" solution. If we are supposed to be the most advanced and cultured society in the history of the earth, i'm sure we can do better than that.
Why is it that everyone seems to have this "Star Trek" view of what an 'advanced' society should be? Sometimes the old way of doing things is still the best. I would like to have a better solution than "kill them all", and I think there might be one, but I'm not for standing by and getting beaten up while trying to figure it out. Go back to the 80's the US was being attacked relentlessly by terrorists under Kadafi. It was decided that enough was enough and a couple of strike aircraft went to visit Kadafi's home. Shortly after that the attacks on US soil abated. It was brutal, but it stopped the attacks in a very short time span.
War has its place, and no amount of whining that we should be an 'advanced', ala "Star Trek", society is going to change that. If you aren't willing to fight for your rights, then you deserve to be a slave. I agree that a non-violent solution would be wonderful, but I haven't seen someone put one forward yet that has a snowball's chance in hell of succeding. If you can prove me wrong, please do so. I don't like violence, but I do feel that when it comes time to use it, it should be as efficent as possible. The only deterent I have ever seen to a war is a strong show of force. Both the US and the USSR won in the cold war, neither side suffered the massive destruction that nuclear weapons promised. And that was because both sides knew that the other side was too well armed to attack. So for now, the only thing I can see that has a possibility of stopping the terrorist attacks on the US is to make it obvious that attacking the US is just going to get you killed. Especially the leaders and planners of the attacks. They are the ones that need to be killed. Most of the people that carry out the suicide attacks do not have the means to plan, and execute them on thier own, they have to rely on the people that sit in the background and send them to thier deaths.
Yes, I am all for targeted assassinations of terrorist leaders. In the end its a very percise way of dealing with a military threat. Will it occasionally get the wrong person? Yes, that is a fact of war, it sucks, but its part of this whole war thing. But, it still beats the hell out of an all out war, it comes down to numbers at that point. In an all out war you are going to have pretty high non-military civilian casualties, in a bungled assassination, you will have only a handful.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
A year ago I was on a boat in the Al Jafad dry dock in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. We'd just gone up to the bridge to use the cell phone (better reception up there). One of the guys, Walt, was talking to his wife when she said that a plane had hit the world trade center. She had no other information, we just assumed some Cessna pilot got lost or flew too close, and we were not too worried. A few minutes later we went downstairs to the mess for dinner and turned on the TV. That's when we saw the second plane hit, and we knew we were in deep shit.
Quite frankly I was very worried about our safety. We stayed on the boat for about two days. The US consulate was closed, so there was no where for us to go to if we got in trouble. We sat for hours in the mess watching CNN with the sound off. We later found out that the sound was off because the government of the UAE was censoring the broadcast. This was a new experience to me, but not to the guys on the boat. I was outraged, but they would say "Mr. Mike, they do this to protect us. Obviously the people are telling lies or speaking bad about Islam, otherwise they would be allowed to speak." And they were serious. Luckily CNN was running text along the bottom of the screen, so we were able to get a decent idea of what was going on.
We saw on CNN the joyous celebrations all over the world, so when we did finally leave the boat I made sure I had a flare gun (I stole one from the bridge) and a 6 inch chefs knife from the kitchen with me, in addition to my usual pocketknives (a Bob Lum Spyderco and a Leatherman Side Clip). I also made sure that the other guys were armed with knives as well (mostly 4 inch Opinels). Non-citizens are not allowed to own/possess guns, stun guns, or pepper spray in the UAE, so knives were all we could carry legally to protect ourselves should the need arise.
It felt odd when we'd go out. Even before the attacks we stood out as we were all taller than the vast majority of the population and we were obviously foreigners, both in dress and face. For two months after the attacks, up until the time we went into Afganistan, people would come up to me on the street and ask if I was an American. At first I did not know what to say, so that first day I said I was a Texan. Most people did not know what a Texan was, but assumed I was not American, so they would then go on about how terrible the attacks were and there was an urgency when they spoke when they'd tell me that Islam was not the cause, that the men who did this were madmen. One very nice older Arabic man had been to Texas, and when I told him I was Texan he hugged me and cried, it was very touching. He and most people I met were outraged at the attacks, furious that men did it in the name of Islam, and worried that the US would destroy the world in retribution. Everyone asked if I knew anyone lost in the attacks, and asked about my family.
Of course, many people I met, including all of the Arabs on the boat with us, were convinced that it was an Israeli attack. As one crewman put it, "It is against Islam to murder innocents, therefore no Muslim could do this. It must be the Jews." I was shocked at this attitude but did not know how to respond to it. Later on when it became more clear that it was indeed Bin Laden's group, the same guys said, "It is too difficult, what they did. Only a nation could do this, not one man or a few men. It must have been Mossad or China, no Arab could plan this." This was kinda funny, because all the Arabs on the boat were lazy fucks, and I certainly could not see any of them planing a good meal let alone a simultaneous hijacking. However, this was not proof, yet they accepted it as such. They firmly believed that if they could not do it, then no other Arab could. This was an attitude that I would find not only on the boat but all over, and is one that still perplexes me.
When US troops went into Afganistan, I became real worried. No longer did people smile and stop me on the street to express their condolences over the attacks. Instead I got angry glares and scowls. I went back to carrying the flare gun and chefs knife in my backpack we I went out. Several people spat at me. Luckily nothing happened, although I did have one Afghani challenge me to a duel. He had a sword, which he had drawn, but I had just purchased a very large Pakastani meat cleaver. It weighs about 10 pounds and is huge. (I figured it'd be good for dressing game) So I took the cleaver out of my pack and said, "Ok." His sword was a crappy one, like one of those you'd see in a sharper image catalog for $40, so I wasn't too worried. I figured I'd whack him upside the head with the flat of the blade and knock some sense into him. A large crowd had gathered, and luckily nothing happened. We agreed to be friends even though our countries might not be. I tried to explain, and I think I did get through to him, that the US was not pissed at Afghanis, that we were after Bin Laden and the Taliban was protecting him. If the Taliban gave him up we'd leave Afghanistan alone. He did not like the Taliban, that's why he was in Dubai and not Kabul, but he had family back home and was worried. The whole situation got better a few days later when it was announced that the US was dropping food and supplies all over Afghanistan, but still the scowls and frowns remained.
After visiting the middle east, I realize how much better off most Americans are than the rest of the world. Especially in the stuff we take for granted, like freedom of religion and of the press. I was not allowed to hear certain things nor was I allowed to say anything bad or even remotely construed as being negative about the government in the UAE. Not just, "don't say that," but the police would come and take me away. The secret police are everywhere and you never know who is listening. My entertainment was censored. Books, newspapers, magazines, CDs, video games, and movies are all censored before they are allowed to be released (for example the whole subplot about the arab arms dealer in the brad Pit movie Spy Game was removed). I was not allowed to practice my religion. I was forbidden to bring a bible in to the country, or to wear a cross around my neck, and there are only about 4 or 5 churches in the entire country (and just try finding a taxi that'll drive you to one of them). I was not allowed to eat what I wanted, nor drink what I wanted. Not that I'm a big drinker or a big pork eater, but after a few months I really wanted to sit down, watch an American Football game, drink a beer, and eat a plate of bacon.
Anyway, now here I am a year later, back in the states. Every flight I've taken since last September I've been searched by hand, my luggage has been searched by hand, and once in Amsterdam our flight was delayed while they pulled out my luggage and made me go through it while a bunch of nervous guys with MP5s and Glocks watched. I gotta tell you, though, that all that did not make me feel safer, in fact it made me feel less safe. I can't help but think that a semi-determined terrorist/hijacker could still very easily get a weapon on board, but I, and most of the other passengers, would be completely disarmed as we are law-abiding, and this would make it much more difficult to stop the hijacking. A sharpened piece of glass, plastic, or stone will not be detected by any metal detector, but it would be a very effective cutting instrument.
So what am I doing a year later? Not much. I watched some of the ceremony in New York and Washington. Here at the office I've been listening to NPR all day. I took off early for lunch and went to a memorial service at my church. I'm usually not big on songs, mainly as my voice just sucks, but today we sang one I don't remember ever singing before. #437 in the Methodist hymnal, "This is My Song." I thought the words were very nice, and appropriate, and well, here they are.
This is My Song
Lyrics: Lloyd Stone
Music: Jean Sibelius
This is my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams my holy shrine;
but other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the Nations,
a song of peace for their land and for mine.
After work I plan on stopping by the indoor gun range and putting a lot of holes into a bin laden target (http://www.reloadbench.com/photo/obl8x11.jpg). I went to an outdoor range this past Saturday but didn't get to spend much time shooting. Then I'll go home, hug my family, call the ones I can't hug, maybe go get a beer with some friends.
-Gandalf23
---*every* religion believes in a god,---
Buzz... no. Buddhism is a religion. So is Taoism. Neither necessarily involve any gods. And indeed, that religions have gods doesn't mean that they think their gods rightfuly determine who lives and who dies. Pantheists don't even necessarily think their god (existence) even has a mind.
---btw, I don't consider atheism a religon. That's like calling anarchy a form of government---
Agreed: but I like this one better: "it's like calling bald a hair color."
I was fortunate.
I did not live in New York.
I did not live in D.C.
I did not lose anyone that day.
At least, anyone I personally knew.
I did, however, lose many people that I did not know. These people were not just all Americans. They were from all over the world. These people represented different ethnicities, religions, regions, businesses, families, etc.
I lost joy in seeing family member after family member holding pictures of their loved ones, wondering if anyone has seen them.
I felt helpless seeing the building collapse, knowing that all I could do is whisper a simple prayer.
I felt torn between my thought of religious tolerence and a new feeling of hatred towards the people who did this in the name of religion.
Yes, I was fortunate.
I married my wife two months and twenty-two days early because her father had been called to active duty. She wanted to make sure that Daddy could see her walk down the aisle.
I help my wife night after night while she cried. We both worried together about my father-in-law. World events left us unsure about what he would really be doing on his mission.
But I was fortunate.
I remember sitting in my home office when an email came from my mother. Something terrible had happened. I rushed to the living room, turned on CNN, and watched as the world seemingly crumbled around us.
I remember my class being cancelled by the professor. My friends and I headed for a dorm room to watch the unfolding events.
I remember the moment of silence in my next class.
I remember the solemn faces of my peers in my last class of the day.
I remember the tribute our university band did for the fallen that next Saturday. I remember being a part of that ensemble.
Yet, I was fortunate.
I renewed my relationship to God. I put my family first. I no longer found material things worth my time. Instead, I found life and the lives of those around being worth my time. I found that love and being loved was the most wonderful feeling in the world. How easy it is to forget this when one is busy.
Yes, I was fortunate. 9-11 opened my eyes, my heart, and my life. It changed me, forced me to do more, and made me be a better person.
Mourning the loss of life,
MunITioN
"A mind is a terrible thing to lose"
I remember then, as I watched the towers being hit and then tumbling down, thousands of candles being snuffed out, screams swallowed by the roar of concrete shattering, and I ran to this site, to read what others like me were feeling, the outrage, the sadness, the joy that no one we knew were affected, knowing how puny we really are yet find that hard to believe, no matter how different we all seem to be. I felt at home here with all of you, knowing that my fears, my tears, my joy, my sorrow were all being shared with the rest of us.
I decided today not to watch TV and just let the day go as usual. But I felt that I should come back here, to read, to understand, to discuss, to reflect, to contemplate the thousands of souls who lost their lives here and abroad. I mourn the deaths of every single person who died that day and I mourn with their families and the families of the young men who believed they were making a point. I would never want my son, my brother or my father to be in that position and my heart goes out to their families too.
I am glad that we all made it here today.
God Bless.
Rapid Nirvana
The Ku Klux Klan engaged in terrorism in the 50's and 60's because they felt they had no alternative. Should the US have made the KKK feel secure? Should the US have given the KKK a way to exist without desparation? It's a moot point now. The US decided to take the opposite approach. They made the KKK not only feel insecure, but feel utterly hopeless. And thus KKK terrorism stopped. I prefer that approach to yours.
Only 600 posts to go.
If voting were effective, it would be illegal by now.
Hint #1: the war in Afghanistan was not a "so-called" war. It was, and is a war. "So-called" isn't a phrase to be casually added to things you don't like. Hint #2: if you think there was no evidence giving cause to this war, you clearly have not been keeping up with the news. Hint #3: the state of war with Iraq begun in 1991 never ended. There is still a war on. No need for the scare quotes. And W's main reason for wanting it done is to get it over with beore Saddam ets some new toys. Hint #4: The legalities behind Lindh and Padilla's handling are indeed controversial. But the charges are not at all spurious. Hint #5: Nothing wrong with Guantanamo. The inmates live more comfortably than their guards there. Hint #6: The US has as much right to effect regime changes as every other country that has set out to do such things. It's a jungle out there. Hint #7: the Middle East is actually improving right now. It's been a while since the last suicide bombing, and Hamas is almost defunct. Then again, in your view that might be a worsening. Hint #8: if as far as you can see, this war effort is motivated by revenge, then you are quite myopic. Hint #9: those international criminal courts have are lacking in the same constitutional safeguards whose erosion you complained about earlier. The US is right to oppose them.
In short (too late!), American culture is taking over the world. We aren't forcing it, people choosed what they like. Other cultures are getting forced out and feel threatened. The resulting fear turns to hatred of America and Americans. We are a "corrupting" influence. And we do take for granted freedoms and benefits others can only dream of.
We aren't forcing it at gunpoint, we're forcing it through much subtler means of economic pressure.
Also, many European countries who consider American culture a corrupting influence have freedoms and benefits that Americans can only dream of: Freedom to drink at any ago, freedom for gays, universally available quality healthcare and education... US is not the only country with a powerful constitution, it's merely the most powerful country around.
-Lars
This reminds me of: The Joe Canadian Rant:
Hey, I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader....
I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dogsled....
and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from Canada,
although I'm certain they're really really nice.
I have a Prime Minister, not a president.
I speak English and French, not American.
And I pronounce it 'about', not 'a boot'.
I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack.
I believe in peace keeping, not policing,
diversity, not assimilation,
and that the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal.
A toque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch,
and it is pronounced 'zed' not 'zee', 'zed' !!!!
Canada is the second largest landmass!
The first nation of hockey!
and the best part of North America
My name is Joe,
and I am Canadian!!!
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
He can't sign something that guts the Constitution, unless it is also upheld by the Supreme Court. It also seems like everyone is forgetting that it was first passed by overwhelming margins in both the Senate -- 98-1 -- and the House of Representatives -- 356-66. I don't like the Patriot Act any more than you do, but it's not entirely the work of GW Bush.
Every point you made here is absolutly true and only goes to prove that the Government as whole is the largest threat to our freedom, not just "Terrorists" and "Liberials" as the idiot who I was responding to said.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
Wrong wrong wrong. Check out what your law enforcement agency in charge of terrorism says. You'll note that it explicitly says 'the unlawful use of force and violence'. Waving a grenade around is not terrorism; it is threatening , will promote fear in the crowd, and probably illegal, but it is not terrorism. Now if they were to pull out the pin, throw it into the crowd, and claim to be doing it to promote a some agenda, then yes that would be terrorism. It doesn't become terrorism until a violent or forceful act takes place.
The pentagon and camp David are obviously legitimate military targets for a militant group.
Fine... Semantics. Then they are merely war criminals and just as reprehensible.
It is therefore possible to view the world trade centre as a legitimate military target and the employees as agents of the state. the attacks then become military not terrorist.
By this argument EVERYONE is an "Agent of the state" and a military target. Since there are no civillians in your accounting you would be fine if we stopped trying to avoid "civillian" deaths in war zones. I think the US should continue to try to avoid civilian deaths in war but it is good to see that you at least won't be protesting the occasional accident since there are no "civillians"
Forget the spelling, your point is well made!!!!
There are hundreds of images in there that have never made it to the media, images that were passed to me on irc the day it happened, from people in NY with cameras, out of their apartments, from their dorms, everywhere. There's a few gruesome pictures of human parts falling from the buildings, as well as images of "jumpers".
To those we have lost, we mourn you, and to those who remain, we feel your pain.
We are wired, we are strong, and we are pissed!
Am I the only one who's completely tired of the 'news' coverage of this event? I mean, for over a year now I've had people telling me I need to 'remember' and 'pay tribute' to our 'fallen heroes.' Almost invariably, the best way to do so is by buying some memento which they're conventiently selling for the low price of $19.99.
I think I'll spend the day commemorating with one of the over 150 books written about 9/11. Which one should I choose? Maybe 'Let's Roll' or 'Above Hallowed Ground.' Or there's the ones featuring children's art, or the impact of terrorist attacks on the gay community. At last check there are some 911 books on amazon.com dealing with the subject.
When I tire of reading a book I can browse some of the thousands of pictures taken that day, or perhaps just kick back with the 'special edition' of any given newspaper filled with pages of 'stories' which are little more than people complaining and wondering what rationale there is for such an attack. Or I could watch the six-hour special today show, or check out Barbara Walters as she sits in on grief conseling sessions with the families. If that's not enough I can check out the Spike Lee special with films 'inspired' by the events of 9/11. As if the normally anti-establishment Spike Lee getting in on the action isn't enough, even ESPN is trying their hand at news and covering 9/11 with a documentary about flight 93.
In short, I'm sick of the sensationalist propoganda surrounding what was certainly one of the nation's worst tragedies in history. I'm tired of people hawking 9/11 commemorative pins as if a pin will make a difference. I don't need an FDNY t-shirt, thank you. I refuse to take part in a 'moment of silence' or wear red white and blue to work. I refuse to purchase any publication with any sort of special edition or expanded coverage. I will not watch people crying on TV over their lost loved ones. I won't look at pictures of the orphaned babies who are somehow more worthy of our attention than the thousands of others orphaned in the year since 9/11. I will not let terrorism change my life as it has apparently changed everyone else's for the past year. I won't give in to the pressures of a society which is apparently hated by a good portion of the world.
We allow our capitalism to destroy the message of what really happened and why, and then the next time we'll wonder why anyone could despise us so greatly. Ratings, Money, Stock prices, these are our Gods. The tragedy of what happened is only a means through which we come closer to them. What kind of people would take part in an attack on innocent civilians? Clearly evil ones. What kind of people will spend a year making money off that in an orgy of patriotism and memorial gone wrong? I'll leave that to you to decide.
This really is a holy war, but maybe it's less about Allah and more about Dollahs.
(end rant)
It is possible to do the right thing in an oppressive situation, take for example, Oskar Schindler, but it isn't easy to be a saint. If you want to leave, who is going to accept you. There are already documented accounts where political dissidents were sent back from the UK to Africa to torture.
The US brand of freedom is a wonderful thing, but perhaps it would be nice if some persons din't exploit it.
It's the fact that american citizens don't give a damn about what are doing outside the USA their goverment or corporations. Sweatshops? Well, they are better than without work, isn't it? Puppet goverments and dictators in the middle east or Latin America? Well but they are our allies, aren't they? Oh! they are killing people! well, they must be killing comunist or terrorist freaks, rigth?
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
and finally (especially for us Brits) helped fund the IRA - who have been systimatically blowing up and killing people in both the UK and Ireland for well over 20 years.
I don't think many people agree with the IRAs methods. But its worth pointing out the IRA wouldn't have existed had Britain not invaded the country, starved its inhabitants to death, burned down people's homes, stopped people from speaking their native language, violently discriminated against those who didn't adopt a foreign religion, and started transplanting people from other countries into areas cleared of natives in an attempt to Anglicise the country.
Killing innocents is wrong. Both sides of that war are guilty, and could be classified as terrorists.
I thought so.
So in your opinion it was ok for Al Quada to attack that US destroyer and Pentagon?
From a military stand-point, yes.
Both of those are valid military targets. While I don't like the idea of our soldiers being killed, in a war-time situation those are acceptable targets. Mind you, the use of a civilian plane, with civilians on-board is questionable as a vaild way to perform an attack. Though I will grant that under the logic of what is a blatant attack on civilians and what is collateral damage, the civilans on the plane could be viewed as collateral damage. Though in counter-argument to that conclusion there would be the question of, could the goal have feseably been acheived without the substantial loss of civilian life? If the goal was simply to create terror, then that answer is no, and thus the use of the airliner was a blatant attack on civilians. Again, it comes down to intent. What was the goal of the attack, and why were the methods choosen?
Let us go out on a limb for a second and assume that the goal of the attack on the Pentagon was intended to disrupt the US Military Command and Control, and prevent a quick response. Further we have to accept the, probably false, assumption that the loss of the Pentagon would cripple US Military C&C. So, what were the options? An air strike was out, the likelyhood of a bomber penetrating US airspace and getting inside the DC area is low, it would have been perceived as a threat and shot down by the time it got over the land. A land based bomb might have stood a better chance, but it would have been too small to do any real damage. Flying an airliner into the Pentagon is a pretty attractive choice at this point, if its fuel tanks are full it might cause a lot of damage, not to mention that its unlikely to be perceived as a threat until far too late. Only downside to this is the high civilian casualties, if you don't care about this problem, this is where you might stop thinking. But there was another option that they missed. Ok, they have accepted that the pilot is going to be lost, and they want to cause a good sized explosion. Buy a small jet, pack it with explosives and fly that into the target. It would have had the same benifit of suprise, and might have provided for a bigger bang, plus fewer civilians killed.
So in the end, yes, I think that the two attacks you put forward were valid military targets, though the method of attack choosen on the Pentagon was invalid. Though keep in mind, one shouldn't be suprised when the US military turns around and opens a can of whoop-ass on them.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
I am sorry if I can't be so beligerent as some people seem to be. Although I have political differences with the powers that be I must remember today as the day the terrorists killed my only brother. Jonathan J. Uman was only 34, recently married and just had his second child. He worked for eSpeed on the 105th floor of the 1st tower of the WTC. I live in the San Francisco bay area, and woke up to the news. My father called me to tell me my brother was confirmed to be in the building at the time of the impact. This news was devastating to both my mother and my father, and his wife and children.
All contempt aside, this day is a day which our country, the United States has never seen the likes of before. This is an historic event, and when they read my brothers name at the cerimonies today I was reminded that me and my family will forever be reminded of his death, and his life. I look at those people who take this event and mock it, those who are 'tired' of the commercialization of the event. I am tired of that too, but there is more to this, a human quality which extends beyond that capitalistic desire. I am tired of all the flag waving, but 2,800 some odd people perished in a couple of moments.... That is quite tragic, and nothing they did would make them deserve the death they received. It was a horrible, horrible death... Burning and falling, screaming and being crushed. I have pictured the event over and over, and have to watch it over and over while watching the news.
I believe in a future where mankind lives in peace and prosperity. In my speech for my brothers memorial I mentioned my desire to live like Roddenberry depicted in Star Trek, a world without hunger and a world where people strive to make things better. This is an optimistic goal, and one which I have begun to question as I believe that human nature is possibly more ugly than I wanted to admit.
I don't want my brothers death to cause more unwarranted death in the world. I want to make things better by looking at the problems we have, analyzing them, and making educated decisions. I don't believe the administration is doing that at this time. But that is another story...
Thank you,
Michael A. Uman
Sr Software Engineer
softwaremagic.net
That our capacity to suffer fools isn't limitless, for example.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
On flight 93, the passengers fought back.
There are several glaring omissions from the official record of the final minutes of FLight 93. The anomalous debris pattern and the apparent loss of all onboard recording equipment means that an accurate record can not be made. Instead, what we have is mythmaking.
Several ground-based observers have described a large explosion on-board. Several passengers phoned to say one of the hijackers was wearing what looked like an explosive vest.
Also, it's important to note that only the flight cockpit hijackers knew they were on a suicide mission -- and their identities are still suspect. At least three of them appear to have used identity theft to hide their real identities. They were mercenaries, professional Islamist soldiers. Most of the rest of the hijackers were dupes, simple goon muscle lied to by their masters and convinced they were on a standard hijacking mission.
It's at least as likely that they were the ones who struggled onboard Flight 93 to regain control. After all, they were armed.
Da Blog
Theories
The whole Bible, Nostrodamus and Emergency Phone trip is hysterical.
Let's try to look at this rationally.
A group of people take flying lessons that include steering, no take-offs, no landings. As such, they have no ability to fly by intruments alone so they have to fly on a clear day; literally so they can look out the window. 09.11 a VERY clear day, 09.10 a little over cast.
Mystery Solved
Pathetic Whimpers
This is just sad geekdom:
"I want to live the way Rodenberry wrote about Star Trek... where people try to make things better."
Carl Sagan said...
One time during a Dungeons and Dragons campaign...
We must strive for peace or we are doomed to Ender's Game.
Kirk was right when he said....
A passage in the Hobbit...
In The Matrix...
Holy shit folks those are make believe. In fact, without the "scary" over commercialized, over hyped, mass marketed United States _most_ of those things wouldn't exist. There is no utopia. Every place has evil/bad in it. Some more than others. If you think there is a better place to live on this planet or any other you are free to leave the US.
Now I don't mean that antagonistically, I mean it literally. You can leave the US anytime you like (unless you are in jail or serving the military, etc.) This is a GREAT thing about the US. You can come and go as you wish. If you think Canada or France will do you better go. I mean why not? If you think that life on Quark 5621 is going to afford you a "harmonious" life, hop on the next flight to fantasyland and go.
Sure we'll miss your 33% but we'll get by. Oddly despite the fact that the US is a horrible, war mongering place humans continue to flock on our shores, leagally and otherwise. As of yet, no mass exodus...
Humans kill eachother all the time. Sometimes they do it for fun. You think we're better than animals because we can move our thumb? Because we made up some religions? Because we communicate in a way _we_ understand? Get real.
Humans have been offing one another forever. Zug thinks you poached on his land you and your whole fucking tribe are dead. Christians think you're defiling their Holy Land, they raise a fucking army to kill you off. World Economy going to shit, people using Deutsch Marks to write on instead of paper, got a glut of 20-somethings? Germany waltzes through Belgium and takes over France. "Hey what the fuck," America says and jumps in while everything is all hot and bothered. Think there's a coincidence that 21 years passed between WWI and WWII? The world just need to grow more army men to finish off the war.
Humans love to hate. Deal with it.
Traitors
You live in the United States. Your are actually bound to defend this country. Literally, legally. It is part of the deal when you live here.
People that complain that we had this coming, we deserve this, this is a good thing are pretty much, fucking traitors. I know you hate Republicans and all that, but if you honestly believe that Pedro Ruiz who was working at Windows On The World for 4.25USD an hour deserved to die becuase the US backs some country, you're a traitor. You should be tried and convicted as such. You are evil, callous and certainly anti-American.
Now I realize a lot of you are youngish and in College or lower and believe the stuff your teachers are telling you. 93% of Accredited College/University Professors who chose to answer the recent USA Today poll said they were registered Democrats and 78% of them described themselves as Liberals. I don't have a personal Limbaugh/Hannity/Gingrich type agenda against any of these folks I just know that once I got out of College and started getting heavily taxed I began to think that maybe the Republicans were right and the Democrats wanted to tax me too much because they liked big government. Of course even later I know they are all scumbags.
But I digress...
You, who would claim you are a Black person before you are American, and as such find the flying of The American Flag offensive (Newsday 09.11.02) I find you offensive. I find you traitorous. I think you should leave and go someplace where they _really_ treat blacks inhumanely.
You who pledge allegiance to your Italian Flag over your American Flag, despite the fact that you have never been to Italy, you too are a Traitor!
It is a privilege, an honor, A GIFT to live in the United States of America. You who wish evil upon the US as you live here. You who wish for the come-uppance of the US, you who hate your own country are Traitors.
Do not quote Civil Disobedience, do not believe that Thoreau was calling for the destruction of the United States, even as HE was opposed The Mexican War. Do not recount the evils of the US WITHOUT recounting the overwhelming GOOD the US has done.
---
Those of you outside the US who hate us, do what thou wilt but be warned that action against the US often leads to the destruction of the those that would harm us. Yeah we'll eventually rebuild you and then you'll give us back massages and make our fucking TVs.
Thanks... Rant over.
This
I don't buy it either. If I were a Palestinian, you couldn't stop me from dancing in the streets.
-no broken link
Yeah, shouldn't he be dead at 55 by now?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The Jews in World War II were in the same situation as the passeners and crew on the first three hijacked planes. They didn't know the real fate intended for them. The Jews thought they were going to work camps, the passengers thought they were going to be held as hostages for a while. If they had known exactly what awaited them their reaction would probably have been somewhat different.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Seems like you don't understand the meaning of the words "Freedom of Association". You are still allowed to associate with whoever you want. There's nothing wrong with the government monitoring you while you're doing so - your freedom is not threatened.
However, it certainly does provide an incentive *not* to exercise your constitutional rights.
Do you like German cars?
Let me put it like this, you may be willing to throw away your constitutional rights for some vague sense of security, but I am not. The US Patriot Act is the single worst result of 9/11. Lets go over some of the rights this act stripped from me:
Freedom of association: The government may monitor religious and political groups without evidence of criminal activity.
Right to liberty: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
Freedom from unreasonable searches: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to aid terrorism investigation.
Freedom of speech: The government may prosecute librarians, telecommunication company officials and anyone else who reveals they have received a subpoena for records related to the terrorism investigation.
Right to legal representation: The government may monitor penal communications between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
Right to a speedy and public trial: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
Freedom of information: The government has closed once-public immigration hearings, secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist requests for public records under the Freedom of Information Act.
How can any of this be viewed as a "Good Thing"
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
If you don't want to die , don't work in a building or for a company that represents oppression to 2/3 of the world.
How this is different from saying "if you don't want to die don't profess belief in a religion that represents terrorism to 2/3 of the world"? Besides, the hijackers weren't exactly oppressed, they were a bunch of basically middle class or outright wealthy fascists who aren't against oppression as such, they're just frustrated that they aren't the ones doing it. I think a banker that wants to be repaid with interest on a loan YOU ASKED FOR is less oppressive than a Mullah who wants to subject everyone to sharia law relegating anyone who disagrees to dhimmitude.
Havn't you watched fight club latley?
Yes, I have. Interesting ENTERTAINMENT but a little unsatisfying (and shallow) as a political manifesto for anyone other than psychotics or dimwits that mistake it's psychotic rants for some kind of deep thought.
They are bad people who distort the true Islam.
Would you say those Christians who:
Bomb abortion clinics
Picket funerals of gays
Burn crosses in front of Black people's homes
Blow up the Oaklahoma city building
Are good examples of Christianity? No! Therefore I'm not going to generalize an entire religion just because of some people, I suggest you do the same with Islam.
History of Islam (briefly):
Before Mohammad, Arabia was inhabited by Bedouins. Arabs were polytheists, and they worshipped a host of idols in the Ka'aba at Mecca. They had a number of unsavoury habits such as continual tribal warfare, and the burying alive of unwanted infant girls.
Mohammed was born in 571 to a middle-class family. He was known as Al-Ameen, "the trustworthy" because of his spotless reputation. He was illiterate. In 610, Mohammad was sitting in a cave, and the angel Gabriel gave him a message from Allah. He was commanded to memorize all of his visions, as he was illiterate he could not write them down. He did so, and he began to gain followers by the force and quality of the words he recited. By 615, he had developed a large following in Mecca. His basic message was one of tolerance, kindness, belief in one God, respect for morality above and beyond tribal links, and prayer.
As the ranks of his followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes, especially the Quraysh his own tribe whose responsibility it was to look after the Kaaba, which at this time was home to the several thousand idols that people worshipped as gods. As Mohammed preached against this pantheon he became deeply unpopular with the rulers and his followers suffered from repeated attacks to person and property. Eventually there was an assassination attempt, and he was forced to flee Mecca.
Muhammad left the city, and emmigrated with many of his followers to the city of Medina. He declared a welfare state, collected taxes for the needy, organised town defences against numerous raiding parties from Mecca and beyond, and agreed numerous trade agreements. He built mosques, and established a religous culture based on personal respect for other religions (the town also contained Christians and Jews).
After the repeated raid attempts on the town, Mohammad and his followers began to raid the raiders' caravans in retaliation and he distributed the treasure equally amongst his followers. By 627, Mohammad had united Medina under Islam with protected privileges for the Jews and Christians who lived there. Word of the new religion, with the peace and prosperity it brought spread by trade. The Bedouin became keenly interested in this new religion; they saw its potential to bring peace and plenty to their wandering tribes, and after much negotiation they became allies with Mohammed and after much contact with the town and muslims they gradually converted. At this stage the revelations that had been coming to Mohammed were almost complete, and he was told that he was to return to Mecca and reclaim the Kaaba. With negotiation and assent of the elders of the Quraysh he made an unarmed pilgrimage to the Kaba. This continued for a while but then the agreement broke down, and war was declared. But there was no bloodshed.In 630, 20 years after being forced to flee, Mohammad marched with an army of 10,000 followers back to Mecca, and the Meccans surrendered without a fight. He became a religious and political leader of the city. He destroyed all the idols in the Kaaba, and gave a general amnesty to all his enemies in the town.
When Mohammad died in 622, he did not name a successor and left no sons. His advisors took over, and the next four leaders of Islam are known as the Four Rightly Guided Caliphs.
My points:
1. Islam is NOT spread by the sword. That myth was spread in the Middle Ages during the crusades. There are other legitimate ways to worship God, like Christianity and Judaism, so the "people of the book" are left alone. Forced conversion is strictly forbidden in the Koran.
2. Conquered Christians and Jews lived side by side Muslims, with no problems. Look at the Moors in Spain. They were the Muslim rulers from 700-1400AD, and in that time, all three groups lived in peace and harmony; so much that the time is known as the "Golden Age of Judaism." The only thing the Muslims asked their fellow monotheists was to pay a tax, because the Islamic government collects taxes from all Muslims that go to welfare, and everyone else must do the same. To compensate, non-Muslims are exempt from any draft.
3. For most of the last thousand years, the Muslim world was the forefront of science and arts, while Europe struggled with serfdom. Science, Math, architecture, and Medicine all grew. Free public hospitals, universities, even paved roads were common in Muslim lands.
4. The Islamic political structure began as something akin to a representative democracy. Over time, as the empire crumbled through a few corrupt leaders and Mongol invasions. The crusades didn't help any, either.
Now, let's address those verses from the Koran.
The verse you used appears in numerous places in the Koran. You need to look at the verse in context; the other commandments and the rest of the Koran. No scholar would ever take one verse as guidance without making sure it's supported by the rest of the message. The rest of the Koran says to respect and tolerate fellow human beings and LOVE one another. I've given you a better verse to look at. It means don't make friends with atheists OVER friends with Muslims. If you're doing business, which person would you trust? The one concerned with only personal gain and no qualms about cheating you, or the person who lives by a moral code, and believes that God sees you doing something wrong? You didn't read the verse after what you quoted. Muslims believe that the religion of Islam is the truth, with scientific proof supporting it. Now if you aren't born a Muslim, that's OK. If you're Christian or Jewish, that's fine. If you live and die never hearing about Islam, then you're innocent. But if you convert to Islam, then later on convert to some religion with idols or Hinduism, then you're doing something wrong. Why would a person swear that he believes in ONE God and Muhammad's message, then go join some polytheistic religion? (Hinduism technically IS monotheistic, but there are bigger differences) God helps everyone if you believe in Him and you pray. What the verse is telling you is that God isn't going to help you or guide you in any way if you turn away from him and start praying to Zeus. This verse was revealed at a time when the Muslims were under serious attack by the Jewish tribes and pagans of the area. It was a necessary step that had to be taken as these groups were creating chaos in the Muslim world. When they were defeated they surrendered to avoid punishment, but when left alone they broke treaties and tried to assassinate Muhammad. This verse does not apply to the "people of the Book" (those who pray to the same God, like Jews and Christians). Like I said before, the Muslims in the government tolerate other religions. (Ignore Iran and Afghanistan, they follow a radical interpretation, and the rest of the Muslim world disagrees with them) You are pulling sentences out of context. Shame on you for not including the rest of the verse, which makes it much more positive and forgiving than what you implied. Read the bolded part that you left out, or better yet, the entire chapter. First, the Muslims were commanded to fight against those infidels who violated the pledges and treaties and acted treacherously. Many people pretended to convert to Islam, just to get inside and cause havoc by trying to topple the religious leaders. Many scholars don't give this verse much weight, it was meant for the time when Islam was under attack in its early years. However, the verse isn't as violent if you look at the verses I'll show you after my rebuttal. Man, who did you copy these from? This is completely out of context. What angers me is that you took this single fragment of a verse from a continent worth of peaceful verses. Let me correct you by including the entire section: Do you see where this is leading? It says in many other places to never fight except in self-defense. Don't start fights, but end them if you have to. If you have to fight in self-defense, then do it! Don't just stand there and wait for the other cheek to get slapped, try to prevent the first slap. BUT don't go over the limits and use that as an excuse to invade or attack. Islam has been about fighting for what's right, doing it with honor, and not hurting innocent people. Anyone who breaks that rule is committing a horrifying sin, including Osama Bin Laden. What can I say? Of course fighting is bad. Even if you hate it, sometimes you still have to do it. Islam is pacifist when it's right, but also smart enough to know when it's an obligation. Look at World War II, can you give me any reason why the US shouldn't have fought against Hitler?In conclusion, Islam is a religion that promotes family, tolerance, peace, respect of other religions, and love of one another. God loves you more than any parent could, so don't go against what He told you to do. Muslims are supposed to follow Jesus too, so love thy neighbor.
No, she was nine.
I know, it sounds sorta gross from our 21st century Western Philosohpy, but at the time it was quite common practice. People got married when they hit puberty. Religion doesn't try to set an age limit on when marriage is permissible.
Plus, he did it for political reasons. Aishah was the daughter of Abu Bakr, a close friend of Muhammad and part of a strong family in the area. She willingly consented to the marriage (forced marriage is forbidden in Islam), and Muhammad said an angel told him that she was the one.
Each of Muhammad's marriages was done either for political reasons, to strengthen the ties of kinship or to help a woman in need.
Islamic History and hadith reports them as having a very happy marriage, where they set an example on how a good marriage should work. They set an example of having no domestic violence and respect for each other.
After the submission of Mecca, two of the tribes were subdued by force, the Thaqif and Hawazin. To Mohammed's credit though, the surviving people of these tribes were treated well, and as a result eventually converted to Islam.
The Quran may say it's forbidden, but there has been plenty of forced conversion to Islam. The Umayyad Empire spread Islam from North Africa to Central Asia largely through the use of force.
Their treatment in Spain was very different than in the Middle East under the Umayyad Empire.
The tax, called the dhimmi, was much higher than any other people were taxed. Of course, they always gave the option of avoiding the dhimmi if you converted to Islam. For more information, see The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam by Bat Ye'Or.
Also, there wasn't really a draft as we understand the term. Most armies of the Islamic kingdoms and empires were basically mercenary armies of Turkic peoples like the Seljuks or Mamluks.
Today the situation is much worse. Almost all Muslim-majority countries have little to no religious freedom and non-Muslims are heavily persecuted (usually government sanctioned or at least condoned).
During the Dark Ages in Europe, the Muslim world was at the forefront of science and philosophy, including the discovery and preservation of many original Greek manusripts and artifacts.
However, Europe surpassed the Muslim world in the Renaissance and never looked back. Since then, the Muslim world has been a backwater, and is actually regressing in some areas. Any technology and development that exists there now is a product of the West. No major scientific or technological advances have come out of the Muslim world since the Middle Ages. (Muslims have come up with advances, but only while living in Western countries.) For more on this phenomenon see What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response, an excellent book by Bernard Lewis.
There wasn't a Muslim-majority country with any sort of democratic government until after their colonizers left. For all its damage, colonization had some positive effects: they left in place modern infrastructure, technology, and institutions. Areas that weren't colonized, like the interior of the Arabian peninsula, were only developed with Western money after oil was discovered there.
Besides, the fact they crumbled because of a few corrupt rulers demonstrates their system of government didn't work in the first place. The US has endured countless corrupt politicians and we're still the most powerful, prosperous, free nation in history. The reason for our resilience is a 200 some odd year old document called the US Constitution.
You can not fight an ism. Just like the whole "War on Terrorism" is pointless, so is a war on capitalism. An ism is an ideal, you can not fight an ideal
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
For starters, you might use that money to pay for the computer you're using, and the bandwidth you are depriving others of. Not to mention the cloths you're wearing, the food you've eaten today, the education you have and all other worldly possesions
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
Yes Different, but not for reason you state.
The fire bombing of Dresden was carried out by RAF Bomber Command, not by the American Air Force and was in retaliation for the Luftwaffe bombing (flattening) of Coventry. Which was carried out in response to previous Bombing by the allies; all the way back until the now known to be accidental (by navigation rrror) bombing (actually dumping) of London in Aug 1940.
And there lies the difference. These terrorists had no reason to escalate, US Forces conducted no similar actions on Saudi or Afghanistan. Indeed the US aided both these states in the recent past against outside aggression.
Could it be because just as the US goes to war with Germany, Japan convieniently declares war on the US?
Except this is factually incorrect.
Japan attacked the US *then* Hitler declared war on the US, not visa-versa; believing Japan had delivered a knockout sucker punch. The US never declared war on either.
ANyone here know the Billy Joel song "Miami 2017: Seen the Lights Go Out On Broadway"? For the two weeks following the attack I walked around the city (mostly around 5th ave and 59th - I was working in the GM building) singing that song. It was...cathartic. Sums up my opinion on the whole thing quite nicely. The lyrics are reprinted below without any permission whatsoever.
Miami 2017 (Seen the Lights Go Out on Broadway)
I've seen the lights go out on Broadway
I saw the Empire State laid low.
And life went on beyond the Palisades,
They all bought Cadillacs
And left there long ago.
We held a concert out in Brooklyn
To watch the Island bridges blow.
They turned our power down,
And drove us underground
But we went right on with the show
I've seen the lights go out on Broadway
I saw the ruins at my feet,
You know we almost didn't notice it
We'd see it all the time on Forty-Second Street.
They burned the churches up in Harlem
Like in that Spanish Civil War
The flames were everywhere,
But no one really cared
It always burned up there before
I saw the lights go out on Broadway
I watched the mighty skyline fall.
The boats were waiting at the Battery,
The union went on strike
They never sailed at all.
They sent a carrier out from Norfolk
And picked the Yankees up for free.
They said that Queens could stay,
They blew the Bronx away
And sank Manhattan out to sea
You know those lights were bright on Broadway
But that was so many years ago
Before we all lived here in Florida
Before the Mafia took over Mexico.
There are not many who remember
They say a handful still survive
To tell the world about the way the lights went out,
And keep the memory alive
Triv
Muslim doesn't represent terrorism to 2/3 of the world, only the US and the Jewish states (oh that includes the US i think).
And New Yorker stock analysts don't represent oppression to 2/3 of the world, only Marxists (speaking of REAL knock on the door in the middle of the night jackbooted, "workers paradise" gulag opression) and Klansmen/Nazi's (ditto) Ever notice how close either extreme really are to each other? Either way the state will MAKE you be what it wants you to be and all your problems are caused by "The international Banking Conspicary" not your own irresponsible decisions or the failings (corruption, oppression, etc) of your own government.
I won't argue that *some* banks and corporations aren't complicit in oppression around the world but it is governments that are DOING the oppression - gulags, "dissapearances", murders, genocides etc. The argument against those businessmen is NOT generally that the oppress anyone themselves but that they are willing to do business with or aid or seek the aid of those who are. But just as most Arabs are NOT terrorist most businessmen (and certainly most of their employees) are NOT oppresing anyone outside of the fantasies of losers like the KKK (& their islamic equivalent) or other sad little extremists that are upset they are not the ones that get to do the oppressing.
As for Arabs & Muslims not having a reputation outside of the US and the Jewish states (aside from Israel which other state(s) are jewish?) I think you could find a few Pakistani's Indians Filipinos Indonesians, Susanese, Kenyans & Tanzanians, Germans, Brits, Egyptians, Turks, Swedes, French, Austrians, Romanians, etc. etc. etc. that have fairly sound reasons to disagree with you. The point is not that Muslim==Terrorist but that SOME muslims are and the argument you made that because SOME businessmen (or Muslims) are guilty of oppression (or terrorism) that means ALL businessmen (or Muslims) are guilty and deserve to have a plane flown into their office (or drop bombs on their village). If your argument is collective guilt fine - but it is a two-way street and you have no basis if you adhere to it to protest even *intentional* civillian deaths.
BTW what would I want with a loan?
I don't know, I didn't suggets that you did. Just that not getting one, or having to pay it back if you DID get one is not being oppressed. Two contradictory reasons bankers are often accused of "oppressing" people.
No they are NOT. Drug patent owners may be acting in an uncompassionate way but they are not OPRESSING anyone. There is no excersice of power, no one is being forced to do anything. Nobody is any worse off than they were before the patent was issued. The people who feel "oppressed" are complaining that someone else doesn't sacrifice to benefit them NOT that anyone is actively working to their detriment. Are you any less guilty than that drug company? Unless you are currently working as a volunteer in a non-profit drug research lab you have made a choice just as the patent holder has NOT to benefit the poor souls in the third world by giving them free drugs. Is your choice better than a for-profit pharmacutical company? The patent holders actions even with their mixed motives will have incredible benefits for many millions of people. Do your actions benefit more than a few hunderd at most? (I am assuming you volunteer the bulk of your time and money to charity since that is the moral standard you demand from other people)
and more over by cultural oppression (re musslims)
Again 9/10ths of the "cultural oppression" protested by conservative muslims is not that anyone is using POWER to FORCE their beliefs on them but the fact that others of their own people CHOOSE to adopt western culture - watch TV, eat at McDonalds, Drink Coke etc. Offering the fruits of your culture to someone else is not opression even if that culture is in fact inferior. A Talib using a GUN to FORCE you to make the choice he decides IS!
I believe that Kenya, Tanzania Turky, Eygipt etc... were all countries that adopted islam
Well if being given the choice between conversion and death or slavery is "adopting" you are right.
9/10 individuals who get credit are oppressed
The only think opressing them is their own stupidity. Being offered a choice even if it is a bad choice and is enticingly offered is not OPRESSION.
I would never get a loan for morral reasons
I aplaud your financial wisdom. But you prove my point - You are FREE to make a CHOICE. No one is using POWER to FORCE you to do anything. Try making the same choice to abstain from paying taxes
Let me clarify my position. In all these cases I am not arguing that western companies & governments are morally pure. They are often guilty of a lack of compassion, dishonesty, and they often encourage people to make poor choices. BUT BEING OFFERED A CHOICE IS NEVER OPPRESSION! Even if it is a bad choice, even if it is a bad choice offered seductively. Having that choice made for you usually IS opression. Being forbidden to own a TV, or eat a burger, or smoke a cigarette is in most cases oppression. Being offered the oppurtunity to do those things is not. YOU may not be happy with the choices your fellow citizens have made. You are probably RIGHT about the wisdom of those choices. BUT if you take it upon yourself to "protect" them from what you (rightly) percieve as their stupidity and act to make the choice for them - YOU are the oppressor!
18. Was Islam spread by the sword?
According to the Quran, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256), thus, no one can be forced to become a Muslim.
Did some Muslims force religion? Yes. Did some Catholics force religion? Of course. The point is, there are bad followers, don't let them stain the religion.
While it is true that in many places where Muslim armies went to liberate people or the land, they did carry the sword as that was the weapon used at that time. However, Islam did not spread by force because in many places where there are Muslims now, in the Far East like Indonesia, in China, and many parts of Africa, there are no records of any Muslim armies going there. To say that Islam was spread by the sword would be to say that Christianity was spread by guns, F-16's and atomic bombs, etc., which is not true.
Christianity spread by the missionary works of Christians. Ten-percent of all Arabs are Christians. The "Sword of Islam" could not convert all the non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled for 700 years, they are still a minority. In the U.S.A., Islam is the fastest growing religion and has 8 million followers here without anyone forcing them to be.