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Help Wire Remote Laos Villages
rODbegbie writes "Lee Felsenstein is appealing for donations to help provide Internet access to remote Laos villages. The New York Times considered the idea one of the best in 2002, but they need to raise $25,000 to get this in place before monsoon season. Donations can be made using Paypal (mention that it's for "Remote IT")."
Would be more then happy to send them a bunch of CD's if that helps.
I very much believe there were/are still guys left over there from the Vietnam War era. If we're gonna wire Laos, then I want to make sure they finally get an email address and a chance to use it!!!
Do they have lots of dinero to commit to global commerce? Or lots of programmers willing to work cheap?
I can't even afford my wired connection, let alone anone else's wireless conection!
Sorry to be stingey, but I need to read
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Do they really want to do this before monsoon season? I'd suggest after myself...less damage to the wires...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
People need food and shelter before they can worry about getting online. I know that it's stupid to say that they should be donating something else, but...it just seems like there's a huge push to get underdeveloped areas on the 'net instead of taking care of necessities first.
This sounds interesting, but what is the total value proposition for internet usage to a bunch of village farmers?
--------
Free your mind.
So why Laos ? What makes them a better canidate for internet access than most of the first world ? How many substance farmers surf the web ? Charlie Don't Surf!
I don't think that Laos needs free Internet connections. I think what they need is houses, and a literacy rate above 60%. How do expect a small village, only 60% literate, to know how to use the Internet? In a country where the phones to people ratio is well over 1:100, I doubt that the Internet will be of must use.
I'll repeat what I said about India regarding the Simputer: there are more important things than the Internet. You know, food, water, shelter during the monsoon season
I am really impressed... It is quite rare to see such a dumb idea.
- try to destroy country and most people in it
- wait 30 years
- get buddy-buddy with said country despite uncountable POW/MIA presence and the fact that we only 30 years ago wanted them gone
It would make more sense if America could hold an opinion for more than 5 years.Most people in Laos don't have computers or even a need for one. Why would internet connections be "one of the best ideas of 2002"??
Is it going to tear down the newly paid internet access and require more donations?
Hack PayPal instead?
Actually, I think that the internet has an amazing ability to educate the natives and cause them to leave for Europe or America leaving their own countries with less of a workforce. If we are to help them we need to find a more permanent solution instead of a shiny one that looks good on paper.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Is this project at the behest of the villages or an outside person assuming only positive things will result? Cultures have been quickly torn apart by ideas which seemed positive to outside initiators.
One of my Linux boxes replaced a router could I send it?? Of course the little tag says (Avoid Moisture)... Maybee I should wait till After the monsoons....... dumb ass idea anyway
My mother in law is worse than yours...and yes I will trade!
We wanted them gone when? the war over there was fough at the request of THEM to fight the communists. Right or wrong thats what happened.
At no point was there any ethnic cleansing or even the remote idea of whiping out a country. Why don't you form an educated opinion before smearing a country with your allegations.
This is just rediculous. Couldn't we focus on giving them something a little more practical like, you know, food, clean water, and medical supplies?
I'm just sick of the techno-fetishism that's taking the place of true humanitarian efforts and generosity. These people don't need cell phones and microwaves, they need basic living supplies. Let them establish some hygenic standards and bring the infant mortality rate down, and we can worry about convenience later. Never mind that the health effects of wireless networks have not yet been studied in great detail. For heaven's sake, we could be sending these people to their graves with invisible radiation!
The PayPal thing is just insult upon injury. I'll make my donations by check, thanks, so none of my money goes to line the pockets of some hokey e-business that can't even protect its own databases (and doesn't claim to!).
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
The NYT article then explains that the villagers are powering their computers using pedal-power. I wonder how long it'll be before they use pedal-power to power their cell-phones and pda's?
And I wonder if the amish will start using technology like this? I know they are (mostly) strictly against electricity, but this could be a loophole.
Sex - Find It
I just came back from a small village in Mexico about the size of this one. They have internet access now, but I have to ask: Do these people really need it?
These people have gotten along fine without computers, why do they need them now?
Sure, it is a nice convenience for tourists when they travel to these areas, but you can't tell me indiginious people, such as these, truely need internet access or computer usage.
It is human nature to take shortcuts in thinking.
Remote Laos villages?
Sorry but speaking as an American, I'm more worried about wiring remote US villages and schools.
Geez, I hope that PayPal doesn't freeze their funds on them.
Wow this is quite nice! However, wouldn't Laos benefit moreso from something that will help the poor instead of luxurize the rich? I may be wrong here, but Laos doesn't have the best living conditions. Why not help them with food, or provide them with housing, or even just send a few people over to decide what happens with the money?
Pls No Negative Modding!
Great idea, my aunt is from there, and they are a very poor country. Just what they fucking need, they can look up recipies that they don't have the ingredients to cook, look at movies they won't be able to afford. This country has been ravaged by poor leadership and poverty for years, and we send them fucking wireless internet access???
I didn't realize that Henry Blodgett was now at the New York Times!
I am getting really fed up with these appeals to make the general population of either our nation or the world PAY for internet access for others. Internet access is *NOT* equivalent to food or health care.
I realize we all feel the internet is a miraculous invention that is "setting people free." I generally hold this view as well. But it is not a necessity!
This reminds me of all of the extra fees on your telephone bill that were put there by Al Gore. Yes, the "creating of the internet" that Al Gore takes credit for is largely the sneaky tax increases he jammed through Congress by adding numerous fees to your phone bill. That money is then used as welfare to (supposedly) give free internet access to low income folks. That is *NOT* the proper role of government.
Similarly, bringing internet access to the jungles of Southeast asia is *NOT* the role of charitable organizations and it is certainly not the type of project that should be gobbling up the limited funds charitable people have to donate to causes in the world.
Internet access is a part of a nation's technological and industrial infrastructure that needs to evolve organically along with the rest of its culture. You cannot take a country that is 50+ years behind the western industrialized world and plop down mondern internet technology. It makes no sense and it is a huge waste. If you want to help these countries economically, you need to help them get a basic economic infrastructure in place so they can actually grow in a normal fashion.
This kind of crap is frivilous, back-patting BS being done by people who want to feel like they are "making the world a better place." In truth, they are accomplishing nothing.
If you want to help out people in the 3rd world, join the Peace Corps.
-Michael
Threshold RPG
Two months ago I was buying a Radeon 9700 at Circuit City. The manager wanted $211.99 it. I informed him that I had just bought just such a card the previous week at a competing store for $111.59. I also told him that some day I would be able to buy a ATI card over the Internet for $399. He turned with a twinkle in his eye that caught me off my usual gaurd, laughed and said, "LOL, Remote Laos Village".
Pointless.
The first "A typhoon is coming!" warning message will get flooded out by all the Kazaa traffic. Thousands will die.
Trolling is a art,
Read an interview here. /there/ during the genesis of the personal computer revolution.
Lee was involved in getting public access terminals deployed in the early 70's in San Francisco, created the Pop 'Tronics "Penny Whistle Modem" project, and the highly collectible SOL-20 personal computer, member Honbrew Computer Club - this guy was
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
Flame Baiting Troll!!!!!
.... we don't like trolls!
OVER RATED!!!!
In America, we have kept one opinion constant for more than 5 years
And of course ... more of my opinion on the post ...
Like I said to mandrake (a company) and many before on the slashdot donation network, NO ... the only thing that I donate to is things I can directly control. IE scholarships, trusts, etc. I wanna know who I'm benifiting not the well dressed president of the NON-PROFIT organization. I still can't believe the black-tie events I've been invited to in the name of "Charity" ... I love the fact that "feeding children" requires a fucking charity dinner ... how about this ... invite everyone to a charity dinner and then don't have one, make them see what it's like to be hungry.
As far as internet in Laos ... laughable ... I would really like to see the benifit of this ... not from the begging for money site too. Plus ... $25,000 because grants won't come in time ... pretty optimistic about those grants coming in.
You all really have money to burn after the holliday season? Why dontcha look at what's happening in your own backyard. Call your old college and tell them you want to start a scholarship (they won't mind really). Education is the key to it all, don't care what you say.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
I live in a large US city, 20,000 ft from the CO. My only option is dialup.
If I move to a grass hut in Laos, I get high speed wireless.
Yeah.....
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Wilma!
I want one of them flat screen TVs and you don't see me begging for other people to help.
that said, just post up if you want to donate money to my cause.
Damn Laotians.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
The article, after you get through the condescending crap about the primitive villagers and their pedal-powered computers, tells us that the "remote village" in question is nine miles from a Laotian city. Nine miles is remote?
It's been over 35 years since I was last in a truly remote Laotian village, but I can assure you that (at least then) there wasn't anything approaching a 60% literacy rate; that they got weather reports, market information (and horrible music) by commercial radio; and that they needed clean water, sanitation, medical care, roads, electricity, etc. much more than the needed the internet.
Why wouldn't providing internet access give some inspiration and guidance to budding third-world entrepreneurs. It is only through the stimulus of local commercial activity that living standards will ultimately be increased in these locales.
Remember that standard of living is not really defined by dollars, but by what the currency will buy you in necessities and comforts. The reason Laos has such a low standard of living is more complicated than simple lack of production, but providing internet access and free flow of ideas (even porn spam) cannot help but to improve things.
Perhaps better, more representative government will result from exposure to new ideas. Enterpreneurial spirit. Greater literacy.
Why not, after all?
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Are any safeguards in place, such as installing servers with closed relays and a truely-enforced AUP?
another fine democrat/liberal contradiction brought t o you by the fine liberals at the nyt.
I thought that the industrialiazed world was evil and that that subsistance agrarian farmers were the ideal and that evil modern technology would ruin the idealic farmer's lifestyle.
Wiring them for internet would bring that modern evil capitalistic high tech in to destroy their perfect lifestyle.
From snopes.com (www.snopes.com/spoons/felsenstein.html):
So, you see, it's an urban legend.You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
I say, why not? If the thing works, I suspect it will be useful, for the reasons described by others on this thread.
sulli
RTFJ.
People who live in primitive (by our standards) tend to be informed by the local leaders. In many cases whom which by idiology are very hostile to the 1st world. Either because of economics or religion. To be able to get a foot hold in these places and give a voice to these people, alot of unfiltered info can be passes back and forth. The result hopefully is fewer trips abroad of our troops to have to go blow up foreigners.
This reminds me of the verizon commercial where the guys is walking hip deep in the swamp still having signal. All of us have experienced dead zones near our own neck of the woods yet that damn swamp has connection. Forget Laos I cannot get access except satellite anywhere near my house. Lets get America hooked up then we can worry about somebody that probably wont use it anyway!!!!
Here is a project that probably has a little more impact. The one good thing about the wireless access project might be that volunteers such as this would have better access to resources they need while they are there. Email is a great thing when you are communicating with people in a vastly different time zone.
I've spoken out before that this is just a bad idea. Laos is a land with almost universal illiteracy, poor health care and few utilities like electricity and sewers, and now Felsenstein wants to set up internet for the elite ruling classes. I doubt that your average Laotian rice farmer will see much benefit from the internet, he's too busy farming when he has time to spare from caring for his malaria-riddled children. He'd probably prefer something more useful like some mosquito nets or a refrigerator. Most of these people are living in Stone Age conditions and people expect computers will improve their lives? They'd be happy to just move up into the Bronze Age, let alone the Computer Age.
r asia/l ao.htm
Send your money where it will do the most good. Laos needs many things before it needs the Internet. Here are some charities that spend their money directly on real-world projects like improving literacy through education, better sanitation and health care, care for orphans, landmine removal, etc.
Darunee Fund for Education in Asia (Laos)
http://www.daruneefund.org/asiamerica.htm
Project Happy Child Laos
http://www.happychild.org.uk/nvs/appeals/eu
CARE
http://www.care.org
UNICEF
http://www.unicef.org/
Of course, these are URLS from just a few minutes of googling, after weeding out the religious nutcase missionaries. Give your money where it will do the most good, where it can save a life. Forget computers and the Internet. They'll come to Laos when the Laotians are ready.
Internet is like fortune cookie without rest of meal.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Maybe it might be easiest to get the money from the local opium lords--they're the only ones with $$ for wireless computers.
Maybe this would help the next sleeper Al Quada cell communicate with the other cells.
I think the last thing the "third world" needs is one more technological advance that shows them just how far below US "standard of living" they really are. Don't make them want to "purify" their state of "infidels"--they might blow something up when they get tired of endless pop-ups and SPAM.
Let's work on the sanitary living infrastructure first. Maybe the Peace Corps or other humanitarian organizations might be able to use a wireless network in a "remote Laos village" but Joe Villager wouldn't give a rat's ass what the internet is. He wouldn't be able to sit still long enough between the explosive bloody diarrhea and the constant reboots from the random power brown-outs.--but what the hell do I know.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
I find it really annoying that while I'm stuck out here one one of the five computers in town that have internet (all of which run on the same 28.8k connection) these people will probably be getting 56k or better. Damn I'm jealous.
Sig
Cabling is a bit premature and NOT doing them a great favor.
Apart from the need to address the lack of food, shelter, clothing, education, uh, "somebody stop the shooting please," telephones that actually work, telephone lines that can actually carry a signal, a country side as rugged as it is lovely, swampy as it is drowned by occasional monsoons, rats the size of corgis, insulation eating cockroaches the size of Norwegian browns and a host of other disadvantages.
Its not a good long term solution. WiFi is better.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Some people argued here that Internet in Lao
Villages won't make sense. There are still some reasons why Internet actually makes a lot of sense
there:
- price discrepancies are big in Laos. With
an Internet connection farmers can look up
the prices on the market without travelling
two days to see that they are down.
- there is no normal chance to communicate
for farmers to share information about
planting methods, fertilisers or whatever.
- maybe in villages there are very basic
schools, but teachers have also no chance to
lookup information or communicate.
- due to the general lack of information
infrastructure it's also simply impossible
for people to see whats going on or just get
a weather report for the next week
For all this reasons Internet makes sense in
Laos in a way which is more about an Intranet
for Laos to provide only most rudamental
informations, then reading the New York Times.
When it comes to nutrition or clean water the
situation is as far as I know better then
anticipated by the other comments, not at least
due to the massive help from outside. But this
comes down to the question if you wanna give
a fish to somebody or show him how to catch one.
BTW: It's called Lao Villages and not Laos
Villages.
This is not offtopic. Moderate correctly or abstain from doing a bad work.
This post reveals great bad taste and possibly idiocy from the poster; but it is not offtopic.
Maybe it's time to create a -2 category.
try coming up with a non-self-contradicting rant next time.
Its a commentary on the dependablility of the information found on the internet.
Without a corresponding web of trust...
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
into the discussions of people who didn't bother to follow up the links, but, here's a little snip:
"Of course, there'll always be someone who'll argue that providing this kind of technology to the least developed countries of the world is missing the point: that we should, as Bill Gates said recently, be spending our money instead on medical and food projects. And, of course, everyone involved in the Jhai project suggests we should do that too. But it's notable that it was the rural villagers themselves who asked for ways to communicate and gain knowledge, not the foundation."
There's a certain first world reverse snobbery going on when you send them a bag of rice, they say "Thank you, but what we really, really want right now is some effective means of communication," and you reply, "Well you upitty little pajama wearing dirt farmers. After all we've done for you already. Here's another bag of rice. Now shut up and be greatful."
Please note that this project was founded by a person who participated in the bombing of Laos in the 60's and now wishes to do what he can to make up for it. So let's all ridicule the hell out of him, ok? What the hell would he know about what they really need anyway, just because he's out there in the jungle with them?
Beyond that this is one of the most seriously cool hacks I've ever heard of, by one of the most seriously cool hackers ever, who was creating underground network hacks before most Slashdot readers had diapers to piss in and invented the portable computer.
They're not just buying some shit from Dell and shipping it over. They're scratch building it to meet local conditions, including the computer and power source.
If I had the money I'd be delighted to give them the whole wad, and deliver it in person to Laos, just to be able to help with this puppy.
KFG
But something's not adding up here.
...if you read the article, it says that "This year, they're living in the 19th century; next year, they'll be in the 21st," meaning that they're doing this right now with pencil and paper, or by oral arrangement. Why a pressing need to move them into the 21st century?
1) We're delivering internet access to a remote country to remote villages in a far-east Asian country. Villages in that area (Laos, Vietnam, Thailand) consist mostly of small farmers and laborers who have probably never heard of the internet, let alone a computer.
2) The reasons the villagers need computers are (taken from the article):
a: a way to make phone calls so that they could communicate with relatives overseas
b: to secure local crop pricing information.
c: the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing so that they could bid on things like construction jobs.
A sounds understandable. B...that would work as an excuse here in America, but it doesn't make sense for Laos. Remembering some old cultural information, most farms there are very small-scale (a few acres at the most), meaning that farmers wouldn't own silos. Along with the lack of huge harvests, there's seems to be no necessary need for them to periodically check up on crop pricing. And option C?
3) Expenses (again, from the webpage):
a: $1,000 One RT US-Laos Trip for One Technical Consultant
Why are we paying a "consultant" to set up a single computer system in a remote village? Typically, someone who volunteers the time and energy to undertake such an adventure finds ways of appealing to travel agencies to cut expenses so that volunteered dollars go further.
b: $1,500 One Complete Jhai Computer
Why in the world are they paying $1,500 for a computer system for "the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing"? Sure, many readers might think they're just buying a "new computer" without knowing how to get cheaper deals elsewhere. But the supposed letter has some very detailed information: "...interconnected by Wi-Fi (802.11b) digital data links and coupled to the local phone system several miles away. Through this system VOIP (digital telephone) calls could be placed to the local phone lines..." If they have that technical knowledge, they should know very well how to set up a cheaper computer system (As cheap as $400 for a new Lindows system including monitor, etc) that will accomplish the same thing.
c: $2,500 One Complete Village Set-up
What the hell is this? "Complete Village Set-up?" I didn't know that we were turning this into a profitable business when it involves volunteered donations! I mean, seriously, look at this supposed "line-item" description of what the project costs:
$10 20 lbs. shipping costs
$25 Keyboard
$50 Headset
$75 Antenna
$100 Battery
$250 Bicycle Powered Generator
$450 CPU or Mountain Top Solar Panel
$850 Base Station
$1,000 One RT US-Laos Trip for One Technical Consultant
$1,500 One Complete Jhai Computer
$2,500 One Complete Village Set-up
$3,000 Relay Station
$25,000 The Full 5 Village System
This sure doesn't add up to $25,000! And why does the village need a solar panel if they're going to generate electricity with a bicycle generator?
This list keeps getting longer and longer. Why are they setting up a wi-fi network when much of Laos is mountainous and forest? That kind of terrain will eat up any 802.11 communication!
On top of it all, how are they asking for donations? Through PayPal. A slick way of getting easy money, and an easy way to bag and run.
Now, I could be completely wrong, and all this might be an actual true organization with good intentions. But as I said before, something just isn't adding up.
With their pie-in-the-sky beliefs. Lets go give some Laotians Internet access! Nevermind the fact that there is no health care, no sanitation system, little education, diseases and very little food. Grow up.
Those peace loving Japanese (the ones that did not rape innocents, use prisoners for sword practice or the focus of dog fights, or swing infants by their feet against trees, rocks and buildings) were only protecting themselves against the evil Westerners (who's attacks were planned while talks of peace waged). How dare the US target a civilian population (that would have died anyway) with no military value (except for strategic location and direct support of the military machine (i.e. logistics)) when it should have been the Marines and Army of the Allies to die (disregarding those that already had and of course disregarding the fact that those soldiers should have been farming and working in factories instead of fighting in the war started by you-know-who). It is a travesty that so many died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki (disregarding the fact that Japan was too egotistical to admit defeat after Hiroshima and disregarding the fact that a regular invasion would have cost many more Japanese lives especially based on how the Japanese subjects [civilians] were instructed to use any instrument necessary to kill Allies, then kill their family before finally falling upon their own chosen instrument of death). The NVA, viet-cong and Chinese were peace loving folk who just wanted to live the lives of their choice (by violently forcing that way of life on others, thus the philosophical debate of, "who is the monster the one who fights to protect freedom of choice or the one who fights to bring all others under the iron heel of THEIR particular choice?"). Lets all dance around and sing our unrealistic songs of joy and peace brought about by words and rhetoric not actions and deeds. I shall not stop that rapist from going after my wife, even if I know he will slit her throught and then work on my daughter. Instead I will open my mouth and sing to him and then we can all do drugs, have an orgy and be so "enlightened."
Since I can at best get 18k connections to the net and those usually d/c?
help these people? So they can scream how bad America is on the net?
(http://web.media.mit.edu/~nicholas/Wired/WIRED
To be fair, Negroponte got the 'how' wrong (he thought satellites would provide cheap internet access), but the why is spot on. People talk about how you can't leapfrog 50-200 years of development to catch up to the industrialized world
We talk about helping the poor in the US or in Europe
--I'm involved as a major hobby/avocation in my life with survival/preparedness issues. The internet has a wealth of information that these people can put to practical use in a "low tech" lifestyle. As pointed out in the articles, they can get better quality weather information, and seek out better markets for their produce and handicrafts. Perhaps better resources to find better seeds or better hand tools, lotsa stuff. How about plans to make home made solar cookers? And even getting an extra buck here and there from selling their stuff more efficiently means a lot to them. They can also find out better ways to get clean water, better and cheaper building techniques, they can use the net as a remote school for their children, they can find new alternative energy sources and techniques,etc,etc. Folks from those regions who are now living abroad can now maybe communicate cheaper via chat and email to the folks "back home", another plus. It's part of the need for better transportation and better communication that everyone needs-not just already "civilised" people. You can't advance as a people-at least economically- without more modern transportation and communications, it's hardly possible, and a "start" has a "beginning" to it, this looks like one of those "beginnings" to me.
All in all it's a "good thing". I'm also in favor of helping various people around the world in so called "third world" and "second world" areas make a better living for themselves at home so they are less inclined to emigrate to the US, and the good will garnered by them knowing they received a little help and notice from rank and file joe sixpack "rich americans" might help to offset this growing mistrust and hate they are developing-at least they can "see" on the net what's going on around the world and not be forced to "guess" or only know what the local fatcat exploiters tell them. If all ya got is the local warlord giving you info, "something else" might help out-maybe anyway.
What would be kinda neat is one year from now, some guy in one of these villages gets an account here and drops a story about what happened, how it helped his village, etc.
Studies are starting to show that computers are not helping in education. In fact, they might be harmful.
If I think about it, instead of figuring something out for myself, I just do a google search for what I am looking for...
This does not make me smarter, just lazier.
It's hard for me to see what is insightful about this posting. Of course there are huge disparities within the US, but the resources available to the average American are hardly comparable to what poor people in South East Asia have to get by on.
It's fine that you worry about US schools - hope you're doing something about it, too. Don't deride others for trying to do get a higher return per donated dollar.
As a Norwegian, I hope to leverage experience from the progress of the Skolelinux project in Norwegian schools to make a difference in other countries, too.
I see so many here complaining how this project is useless. The Internet represents the largest library of human knowledge and experience we have. Why would you want anyone cut off from this? In my opinion, everyone should have the chance to get Internet access, to provide them the opportunity to grow. - Knowledge Is Power.
Why don't we just send them some of our
abundant fiber optic cable buried across the USA?
Are there any other trappings of western culture that those poor Laotians do not have? Poor things.
As a volunteer for the Jhai Foundation myself (the Jhai Foundation is the organization trying to put this together), I know personally how important this is, and how it might help poor people living in these remote villages to help themselves.
A little background on Jhai: The Jhai Foundation was founded by Lee Thorn, a Vietnam War veteran who, during his service in the US Navy, loaded bombs onto bombers that devastated Laos. Some of that ordnance is still unexploded and lying around the Plain of Jars. Lee started the Jhai Foundation (which means, "hearts and minds working together" in Lao) in order to reconcile himself as well as his country with the people that the US formerly bombed. Lee works out of his basement coordinating over 100 volunteers on a shoestring budget. It is his passion and his life.
The point of this project is not simply to hook up the wealthy people in Laos. I doubt there are very many people there at all that could be considered very wealthy. It is also not to simply allow them to download porn or shop at the Gap. The main idea is to connect the people of Laos with each other and with the world. Here's an example. Let's say you are a rice farmer in a remote village in Laos. You have just harvested your latest rice crop, and are getting ready to take it to the market to sell. But, the market in town is two days away by horse drawn cart. You need to know if there is anyone there buying rice at that time, and if so, what the prices are. You might find that there is a glut of rice in that market at that time, but there is another village in the other direction that has a shortage. With a few keytrokes, you have saved yourself several days effort. Or, you may find that rice is not in demand anywhere nearby. In that case, you might decide to store the rice for later, or for your own consumption.
There are many, many, other uses for such a wireless network. Let's say that a boy in a remote village becomes ill. The hospital, which is very far away can be contacted and asked for advice. A doctor can be sent for, or medicine delivered.
And then there are all of the even harder to predict uses that a community may make of such a communications tool. When people can share information with each other, they become more efficient, and this improves their quality of life significantly. Also, children will obviously begin to use the computers and the network themselves and build it into something even more powerful, much as many of us here on /. have done with various other networks we participate in.
In addition, this is only one facet of what the Jhai Foundation does in Laos to help. They also deliver medical supplies, help to set up hospitals, dig wells, work to eliminate unexploded ordnance, and help farmers to raise crops and compete globally. The list goes on.
Yes, there are lots of other charitable organizations out there right now doing good work. It is never easy to know where to send donations (especially these days). But, Jhai is doing something in Laos that no one else is doing, that personally, I think is fascinating. The wireless, no-moving-parts, human-powered computer that Lee Felsentstein has contributed is definitely cool, even from a strictly techno point of view. But, it will also be fascinating to see if this tool can help the Laotian people to help themselves. Personally, I can't wait to see what they manage to accomplish with the network. The Laotian people have suffered so much in the past at the hands of governments like the United States. I am glad to have been a part of this effort.
For people who are really interested in donating, but are feeling the economic pinch, Jhai also has a program for selling Laotian coffee, in the Newman's Own fashion. The coffee is all grown by Laotian farmers, and all profits go towards the important work that Jhai is doing. You can buy the coffee online at: jhaicoffee.com
Remote Laos villages get broadband before my suburbs. Come on I don't live THAT far out of town. :(
how about we wire up our own first before wireing up everybody else
As a Norwegian, I must say the plight of Laotian villagers in need of basic communication lines with the outside world somehow strikes me as more poignant than this plea from the rural US. Not all /. readers or others who find the Net useful are from "this country"
Unless I can be proven otherwise, I will assume that those technological resources will only end up going to the rich and powerful of those remote villages. I was raised in a poor remote area of Europe and I have traveled extensively throughout poor areas of developing countries and typically -- this is what I've witnessed.
Fuck Laos. Who the hell cares about Laos?
How about we wire the remote village of Houtzdale, Pennsylvania for broadband? Or any of the many towns and hamlets throughout the United States that don't have anything but dial-up (or aren't even that lucky thanks to no local servers)? Let's get our own nation connected first. They we'll worry about some third world country that needs online.
And hey, before we do that, let's solve some other problems here at home. Let's get the homeless off the streets so we can give them internet access. Let's stop hunger within our borders, so that kids can have something to snack on when we give them internet access. After we've taken care of OUR problems first, THEN we can worry about other little countries and their problems.
We've gotta get our own act together, first, people. We need to take care of our own. Then and only then should we try and help those less fortunate around the world. Chances are they've been suffering for decades. They can wait another year or two, they'll still be there.
Blog Prophyts - Right On, Man
A man is arrested for killing someone in cold blood. Case closed... Well looking back we find that he was in fact defending himself against someone who had demonstrated the intent and the will (follow through on threats) to kill this man and his family due to a sucessful attempt earlier. Hmmm, but wait... we look back and see that the man "murdered" was in reality being stalked by the entire family after walking out of a relationship with the youngest daughter (19 at the time) and who had been physically and emotionally beaten over a period of 2 years yet the cops did nothing. In fact, what happened was he attempted to meet with the daughter to try and work the situation out rationally when he was jumped by the older brother who had a knife. Hmmm... but wait there's more! We also discover that the family had a history of such activity with everyone from former boy/girlfriends, coworkers, neighbors, teachers, etc. In fact we find that the father is a lawyer with powerful connections who would allow (or himself do this) the violent actions on others including hiding them in his house and threatening to shoot anyone coming near. (picture a hit and run attack where a 16 year old kid beats another kid up for days, then one day takes a baseball bat after him... yet on that day the father sees this and chases down Mr. Slugger only to be confronted by a parent with a gun and no intention of stopping or disciplining Mr. Slugger. Also imagine that the father of the victim has a "no protection zone" to where other victims cannot be protected even during the violent act. Sorta like firing weapons FROM another border and using it as a safety zone). War has never been a situation where both sides are "innocent," thus is the nature of war and why it should be avoided. Yet when people take an unrealistic view of it and selectively apply certain criteria for "wrong and right" you only end up muddying (or rather "bloddying") the water further. Truth backed by vigilence and conviction are the tools to stop this, not rhetoric and political agendas, not groupthink, not that liberal sociology teacher, and definitely NOT THE APOLOGISTS!
What's the literacy rate in Laos, and exactly how many web sites are available written in Lao? Sure, they could find crop reports, etc., but are they planning to teach them english so they can actually make use of them?
"Want in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first." - My Dad
Have a look at David Cavallo's thesis, or do a search for Project Lighthouse.
Funny that you mention the Peace Corps...I have a good friend who just ended his Peace Corps tour in rural Thailand (about two hours from the Laos border). One of the main projects he worked on was writing grant proposals to fund a similar wireless infrastructure for hilltribe villages. In this case, it was mainly for use as an intranet. Having quick communication is basic economic infrastructure.
I'll add that all of this was initiated by the hilltribes themselves. They see the benefits of technology and will probably use them in ways we don't expect, probably in ways a lot more useful than our websurfing.
Yeah, it makes sense to be concerned about who is running a charity. The reason I got interested in this particular project is because Lee Felsenstein is running it.
Felsenstein's already got quite the track record:
He ran the Homebrew Computer Club, and helped kickstart the PC revolution. His framework let Woz and Jobs sharpen the ideas for the Apple in front of a community of peers. His framework for the club emphasises open architecture rather than competition between inventors, something that you still see in the PC world. Basically, he's doing for Lhaos what he and a few others managed to pull off for the United States a few decades back. Oh yeah, and I remember the folk who said that putting a computer in your home was "laughable", and he asked to "really see the benifit of [that]".
Felsenstein also invented the first cheap modem, the first portable computer, and the first community network.He wrote presciently about the "Commons of Information", years before most of us had even thought about these issues.
I reckon I owe him ten bucks in just paying my backdues for the improvements he's already given my life. If he said he was doing the same for the Invisible Underground Mole People, I'd give him the time of the day.
But he's not. He's doing it for Laotians. The guy who runs the Jhai Foundation, Lee Thorn, is an old Nam vet. In case you don't know this bit of American history, the US dropped more bombs on Laos than the Allies did on Germany and Japan combined. They're still trying to clean up the munitions and put their country back together again. Thinking about it, I probably owe them at least a buck, too.
You rant about going to black-tie events, but when somebody asks you for cash via a thirdy-party Website run out of a DSL line, you're suspicious. Too suspicious, even, to do some basic research on the implications.
Damnit, boy, that's why they do those fancy dinners. So that touchy guys like you can be reassured that this a proper "above board" appeal without you having to bother doing any original thinking. You think your local college spends money more wisely, just because it's a college? You think that the banker at your trust knows what's being done in your name? How much money do you think they wasted getting you to think this way?
And it's apparently quite a popular sentiment based on the moderation. We are fucking doomed.
How about sending some god damn humanitarian aid?? You think people who are starving give a damn about internet access? My respect for Slashdot has, well, been serious slashed as of when I hit "Submit."
when the worst killing disease in the world is malaria, which is curable, and we only need to pay people to carry dirt to the swamp to kill the mosquitos, why would we pay for internet access in the third world? why do we organize dumb things like this? does laos need internet, or medecines? some heavy machinery would be more useful to them than slashdot. DUMB.
"Other bands play, but Manowar KILLS"
I didn't say give to a college, I said give to a scholarship. Aid a student who is trying to better themselves through an education.
A trust in the name of the owner can't just be moved by the banker? That money is yours or the person who owns it's account to do with as they please, 9 times out of 10 to help someone or something.
I never said I gave to black tie events either. I think you completely missed my point so I'm not going to hide them in vague sentences of explanation.
1. Make a difference in your own backyard. Increase the level of living for your next door neighbors in turn making your level of living higher (push pull action). Don't blindly give to some project for a country that is poor because of poor decisions of the past (remember how young even america is).
2. Don't come to slashdot looking for money, historically slashdot has refrained from making itself into a pledge drive, but low-and-behold a new trend is starting
3. Screw LAOS ... I think we as Americans have done enough in that part of Asia as far as lives spent and money as well. I know who was on what side, but I think it's time that we as Americans give it a rest in that part of the world.
4. I'm a greedy bastard who worked for his money and I know that all you have to do to make as much if not more than me is get off your ass and try.
Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
If this is step one of some grand scheme to get hot Laotian girls webcams I wish they'd say so directly, I'll bet they'd get a lot more donations.
I agree that surfing slashdot is a poor substitute for food, shelter and medical care.
But consider that access to the net can help with many of the basic things. You may not have a doctor, but you can find medical info on the web. You can learn new and better ways to grow food and build shelter rather than whatever your grandfather was taught by his grandfather.
And not least, by knowing about what goes on in the world, you can become a better informed citizen and less of a clueless and easily manipulated pawn of whoever is in charge.
HUH!??! so people in rural Loas get broadband b4 me in rural iowa?-lol
Look at there proposals they submitted to "IDRC" (?? part of world bank I think) and "SIDA":
http://www.jhai.org/jhai_remoteIT.html
Why do they need our money too??
and education before we hook them on the web ??
I really think the digital divide concept just goes to show how little the politico's actually understand or care about the real world average working joe. Kids are starving on the streets without medical care and we are worried about email access ? Granted some of these problems can be partially address via electronic education but the fundamental problems cannot be solved by web access.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
From snopes.com (www.snopes.com/spoons/felsenstein.html):
For those who may be deceived, this is not, in fact, on snopes.com. For those who missed it, it is moderated as "Funny" (at least, as I write this), and it may be somewhat amusing. Also, the fact that the URL for the article was shown, but not linked, might be another indication of this. (Searches on snopes.com for "Felsenstein" also come up blank.)
Doubt is a good thing, but it is taken advantage of just as easily as gullibility.
n/t
Didn't Nixon and Kissinger already drop a few million dollars worth of technology on cambodia??? I suppose a little more might actually help!
This is as ridiculous as wiring up those towns in Africa. For godsake, these chaps don't even have basic food, clothing and shelter, leave alone electricity. Now we want to give them internet access? Give me a break. Get yer priorities right. If we want to help them, send food, money, clothes and books.
I used to live in Laos -- for 5 years -- and still keep in touch. A few things of note:
n tries/4ee7b6bde2d950f6802568f20055293f?OpenDocumen t)
1. It is still a communist country -- the Internet is monitored (much like China, albeit on a less sophisticated scale). The area being networked has a lot of political clout in Laos as a number of the ruling elite have family there.
2. There have been many crop failures in recent years due to floods and droughts. Many farmers in Laos have been surviving only on aid. Internet access is not going to do anything to help that.
3. The level of Internet use in Laos is increasing but it is out of the reach of the vast majority of people in the cities -- and it is viewed as suspicious (by the government) to use it. People still disappear in Laos (http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/cou
4. The area being networked is not what I'd call remote -- it's only 100km from the capital city, about 10 km from the main highway north (which is in good condition).
Having just read Frank Abegnale's "Art of the Steal," I would be highly surprised if this was actually legitimate. They're hoping to get money from us geeks and pocket the balance via PayPal. I hope PayPal freezes their account, since this stinks highly of an old-fashioned scam.
Think about it. They are already in monsoon season, and why the rush? Scams intentionally try to get you to "act now," and as anyone can put up a web page and get a PayPal account, why trust this bozo with your money? If you already donated to this "cause," you've been scammed by a con artist.
... I now know where to send some of the $30 MILLION DOLLARS that my dear friend Mr. Mboto of Nigeria will be wiring to my account very shortly.
Tuus crepidae innexilis sunt.
I'm being a drag, yeah, but there ARE more important things that WiFi in Chong Mek.
And to be selfish for a moment (I am an American after all), how about cheap high speed access for ME? South Korea has 8Mbps for $38 a month. I get 768/128kbps for $50. Thanks Telecommunications Reform Act! (And yeah, I voted for the guy that signed that one into law...)
jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
My God, if they live in a monsoon area, wouldn't it better for them TO MOVE WHERE IT FUCKING DOESN'T FLOOD AND DROWN YOU??!?!?!? I would think flotation devices, rather than connectivity, would be a better purchase.
How about helping down-and-out US programmers who lost jobs due to globalism and economics?
I had no idea Bill was funding those now.
Education is a key...not the key.
There are substantial problems at present within Laos as better educated youth come to the realization that Lao PDR will provide a comparatively limiting future for them individually, and thus simply up and leave (often for Thailand). This generates a massive and often unassailable gap in the production capacity of their families.
Why not spend the money to wire rural areas in the US? I have no broadband and further up the hill (Sierra Nevada's, California) they do not even have lan lines for a simple telephone call.
Urgo: "I want to live. I want to experience the universe and I want to eat pie!"
Jack: "Who doesn't??"
I want to start an organization to get rural Kansas broadband. If someone brings up satellite I will hunt them down and kill them, satellite sucks...period. I just want to be able to connect over 24kbs, like 46kbs or something. Damn phone companys and their multiplexing, damn them.
I'm done with my dail-up rant now...I feel better.
Surely there's better things to be done for the Laotians than bringing them the joys of spam and on-demand smut.
A decent DJ would be a start.....
F*ck Hotel California in the eye with a red hot poker.
Just what I need. More non english speaking kids who can insult me or say the same annoying line, repeatedly (Diablo 2: Wug? Wf? gf? soj?...ack, no thanks!
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
From my friend in the Peace Corps:
... But the internet will no doubt speed up the process. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
I am the Peace Corps volunteer mentioned a few threads earlier. I have lived in northern Thailand four years working for the Mirror Art Group (http://www.mirrorartgroup.org), an organization that employs technology in development projects for hilltribe people. I live in a bamboo hut at our center adjacent to an Akha hilltribe village. I have high-speed access to the internet. There are no phones in our sub-district. Our center and some villages have electricity, but most of the villages charge car batteries so that they can watch TV or have lights at night.
Though I've never visited the Jhai project, but I know a lot about the situation, so I am going to give my input.
Scrolling through, I've been reading a lot about how Laos needs this and that before they should have internet. These discussions, which seem logical and valid to most people also sum up one of the biggest problems in the development world. That is, the people with the money and the say-so don't really know the all the factors in the situation.
I see a lot of concerns about housing and water. Why are you concerned about water? Laos must have more renewable water per capita than any country in the world. It also has relatively little use of pesticides and no industry, so why wouldn't the water be clean? This is not Africa we are talking about. Laos is lush. Have you been to Laos?
Bamboo huts are perfect for where these people live. They are cool, cheap and easily maintained. I have lived in a bamboo hut for a year. It's not bad. I would choose a bamboo hut over a cement house any day and twice on Monk's Day. Cement houses are like ovens. Is that what you want, poor Asians living in ovens?
You see, just because something is good for the people and the (meteorological and political) climate of America, doesn't mean that it is good for Southeast Asians. You would think that would be a lesson already learned.
What about medical care and infrastructure? These are very important areas in which Laos is truly lacking. But, you know what? These are the responsibility of the government. And you know what else? Governments in Southeast Asia, especially Communist governments, are corrupt. $25,000 wouldn't make it past the third level of the hierarchy there. Why throw your money away on road-building projects where roads don't get built? And I think we can admit to ourselves that if we want to promote the American agenda (and we do, don't we?) the internet is perfect because it would allow people to stumble upon webpages about democracy, Brittany Spears and Coca-Cola while doing research on how to cure goiter and learn English.
What I think is that the Jhai Foundation has exactly what the NY Times has said: a good idea.
Concerns:
1) Literacy. I'm not worried about literacy. Who cares if 40% of the country is illiterate? Sixty percent of the country comes from ethnicities that have no written language and only oral traditions! Why _wouldn't_ they be illiterate? And with crappy schools, why would they learn to write Lao if they are never going to leave their village? Also, there aren't many books in Lao. Lao websites are even fewer.
The key here is, however, is Thai. Laos can learn to read Thai easily because all of their television programming and karaoke machines are in Thai. Many college textbooks are in Thai and there are many, many Thai websites. That's a lot of information that Laos can use at least until they reach an IT critical mass of their own.
A lesson that people working in development should learn: People will learn to do anything (read and write, in this case) if there is a good reason for them to do it. Among Southeast Asians, masters of practicality, the inverse, converse and contrapositive also seem valid.
2) Knowledge of agricultural prices important?. So important. It is so important for farmers to know how much crops are selling for. Again, you don't know because you have never been in a village when the ginger truck rolls in and says that ginger is selling for 20 cents per kg and then you go to the market in the city 30 miles away and see that it is selling there for 40 cents per kilo. The villagers got taken...because they didn't know the current price.
3) Erosion of culture/values. That's a legitimate concern. Lao and tribal cultures are not big and don't have the inertia of, say, Thai and Vietnamese, so a little erosion of culture is very damaging. I mean, it will happen anyway what with TV, globalization, yadda, yadda, yadda,
[Incidentally, not having cake at all--that is getting all foreigners out of Laos--is not the worst strategy in the world. Cake makes you fat. Then again, the world would never agree to leaving a country alone.]
4) Rural exodus. I don't know about Laos, but it is a huge problem in Thailand. Entire villages and towns are devoid of the 18-35 year-old age group, because there are no jobs in the village and there are many more farmers than land to farm. Children start leaving, usually voluntarily, but often tricked, as early as 11-12. Once in a city, anything can happen to these kids and they have no recourse. They just have to take it. It's not good and it's not safe.
Because our organization makes a portion of our operating expenses from designing websites and we have local villagers help with that work, there is no reason to assume that web-site design and other telecommuting is not a viable option to counter the rural exodus.
The internet would also make it easier to register births of people in remote areas (read: most of Laos and northern Thailand). In N. Thailand this would put an end to the enormous problem of deciding who should rightfully have Thai citizenship because they were born in Thailand and who shouldn't because they just came over from Burma last year. You didn't think about that application of the internet, did you? Why would you have? Citizenship is an issue that doesn't get the attention of clean water, education, etc., but if you ask any tribal villager in Thailand what the most important issue for his village is, he will answer Thai citizenship for his villagers. Of course, because without citizenship, the villager doesn't get education or health care anyway.
In general, with the internet what you have is a cheap means of leap-frogging all of the system that holds poor people in poverty. It's got a lot of up-side which many people don't see because they don't understand all the factors at play. I hope this helps explain some of them.
Lee Felsenstein has most definitely earned his chops, and has yet to sell out. Why complain about soliciting donations for good works, much less complain about black tie bene dinners? What's up with that? Have you been invited to one? If so, so what? What's it got to do with this?
t ml
t m
Just google Lee Felsenstein, and draw your own conclusions on the results. His seminal work in the industry, BEFORE there even was an industry built on microcomputing, served to build the foundation on which we all play now. If not for the Homebrew Computing Club, it's possible that micros might not have taken off at all.
Chew on these:
Here, just check this out:
http://www.cpsr.org/am/bio/felsenstein.html
And this, for an example of other good stuff he's working on now:
http://blogs.salon.com/0001323/2002/09/03.h
Here's one where he's working on cheap de-mining tech:
http://maic.jmu.edu/journal/4.1/actuator.h
Hey, check out his resume even, and note that even though he's been proximate to the billions, he is to this day not a rich man. He's not greedy, see:
http://198.144.193.35/Resume-current.html
This guy is a mench and you'd be privileged to have an opportunity to help out one of his projects, imho. Want control over the use of the donated funds? Try getting involved in the project. You could, you know?
I live in a rural area of Indiana just 8 miles from a city. No broadband (except very expensive satellite - of which one provider is shutting down: DirectTV satellite internet) and no prospect for such in the future. How about spending a little in the USA to bring access up to even UK standards? The UK seems particularly adept among Western countries in working to get broadband access to its citizens (despite problems with BT). In this country (USA) there is no drive at all to the point that it is a nonstarter for the most part.
How about the country that created the internet get on the ball and provide access to its own citizens to at least the point of Western Europe? I wont even mention Asian countries like Japan and S. Korea (and Taiwan?) which put all Western countries to shame with their incredibly high level of high speed connectivity.
I WANT BROADBAND, DAMNIT! Sprint USED to have a wireless service available that I would have gone with but they aborted at takeoff.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
What these people need is sustainable agriculture, transportation, infrastructure and a descent economy.
What's the use of internet access if most of these villages don't even have roads, water or electricity?
You really fucked over that village. "White hippie" comes in and suddenly the village decides it needs to upgrade its image for the world, and wastes its money on TVs and toilets. Maybe you should have taught them medicine or farming.
Your example of Nepal is perfect. I remember reading about the people that tried to bring the Internet to Nepal about 8 or 9 years ago. They tried to find a local english-speaking contact to work as liason, but every person they located refused to help. They all said they were too busy working with foreign companies installing electricity and sewers.
Sure water, food and electricity matter. Given the current circumstances, whether they matter more or less is an abstract debate. Only the receipent can tell.
Humans do not live on food alone. The fact that internet exists is known - even in corners of Laos. What is wrong with giving them a taste of it ? Give food and you feed someone for a while. Trigger a dream and you might have planted something more meaningful and lasting.
We all live for a while and then die. Where we are born and therefore nationality (by birth) is not of our making. It could very well have been one of us in Laos.
Putting myself in receipent place - given a choice between food assistance and internet access I am not sure what I would choose. Sure food would help but its an endless cycle sooner or later I will have same problem - have survived this far will survive this shortage as well - if thats my fate.
Internet fuels dreams, opens possibilities. An escape at worst. Its all about the power of an idea/s. Is that not what separates America from rest of the world ? What better gift to pass along ??
You know what, as a Lao overseas we are constantly asked for money by our relatives in Laos. We understand that they are poorer and a few dollars go a long way. I'm just thinking that they will use the telephone call up their relatives to ask for money....If the purpose of the project is to help the villagers live sustainably, then the IT team might have accomplish their goals--that is live sustainably with the money from overseas...
The only happiness lies in reason; all the rest of the world is dismal.
The highest reason, however, I see in the work of the artist, and he may
experience it as such. Happiness lies in the swiftness of feeling and
thinking: all the rest of the world is slow, gradual and stupid. Whoever
could feel the course of a light ray would be very happy, for it is very
swift. Thinking of oneself gives little happiness. If, however, one feels
much happiness in this, it is because at bottom one is not thinking of
oneself but of one's ideal. This is far, and only the swift shall reach
it and are delighted.
-- Nietzsche
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