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Michelin to Include RFID Transmitter in Every Tire
An anonymous reader writes "According to the RFID Journal, Michelin (the tire manufacturer) has announced that it is planning on embedding RFID transmitters into every tire. The article states that 'the microchip stores the tire's unique ID, which can be associated with the vehicle identification number.' Let the privacy invasion begin!" If they're going to embed electronics in tires, I wish they'd start with tiny pressure gauges. (See also this story from a few days ago about the coming surge in RFID tags.)
Find a friend with the same car, and swap boots.
(first post?)
stock up on retreads from south of the border
new technology
If they link the purchaser to the tire via credit card number, they can know who you online and track you anywhere in the real world with RFID readers. In other words, someone from slashdot can steal your car.
good question...but is YRO interpreted as:
1. category all about your "online rights"
2. category about ALL your rights...just happens that the forum is online
No, sorry you have lost me.
funny, as a consumer who actually buys the tires, I don't remember ever asking for this.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
If they can put those things in tires, they can
put them in condoms, too.
"Sir, I just don't understand how you could have recieved puncture damage in the exact same spot on all 4 tires."
or,
"Why does the rubber on this tire appear melted?"
Brings new meaning to the phrase burning rubber....
"You now have a lot more riding on your tires, so don't do anything stupid 'cause we're watchin' your ass, bitch."
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
I'm just curious...how are the planning on justifying this? The article has already been /.'ed, so if anyone read it, please do explain. I, for one, can't imagine any benefit that would justify Michelin implanting essentially a tracking device in my car tires.
"The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it." - G.B. Shaw
They'll make you put an identification tag on your bumper
my corvette has pressure guages in the wheels, uses an RF transmitter to the dash. I suspect this feature will become a lot more common after the explorer roller fiasco.
The tire makers are just trying to comply with the law! The TREAD (Transportation, Recall, Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation) Act requires tire makers to track all of their tires in case they need to recall them. Blame Congress, not the tire makers.
Oh, and to respond to the editors comment about how they should make tired that track tire pressure instead, they already do! (Is it okay for me to tell the editor to RTFA?
So when do the commercial EMP devices come out so we can fry these little suckers?
One of the first products I can see coming out of this event is little EMP generators that allow you to detect, then blow the living daylight out of the RF circuitry in these things. Remember... any good transmitter is a good receiver, too... find the resonant frequency of this receiver, and you can pump enough energy into it to melt the traces.
Instant privacy.
So, are we going to start seeing people swap tires with each other? I'd read the article but it's already dead. Is swaping tires going to become illegal without re-registering them with the new vehicle? It'd be pretty cool to have whoever is tracking this see most vehicles in four different places at once.
Apparently, of the rich, by the rich, for the rich.
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
If Firestone does it, they'll be sure to include this code:
...
Tire leftFrontTire = new Tire(props);
if(leftFrontTire.pressure > randomVar) {
leftFrontTire.implode();
}
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
If they're going to embed electronics in tires, I wish they'd start with tiny pressure gauges
Several cars already have tire low pressure warning systems. I know the Chevy Corvette has had such a system for the past decade, at least.
--Mythos
The manufacturer already knows which VIN goes to who. The bank knows the VIN of the car since it issues the loan. Your state government knows the VIN of your car when you register it. Your insurance company knows your VIN and everything about your car from it. Everytime you bring your car to the dealer they they note the work done by your VIN so the manufacturer can notice any major problems. So how is this going to take away from your privacy?
Inventory tracking? Quality Assurance? Big Brother? I'm sure this is the dawn of a new era and I welcome it with hope, fear.
The best use I could think of for this would be for those drive-through beer and liquor stores. Every time a car drove through, you could record the ids' of its tires. Then, if the customer bought cigarettes, you could store the tire ids in a database of cigarette buyers. You could sell this database to health insurance companies for a fortune so they could bust people who made fraudulent claims about being a nonsmoker on their health insurance and deny them benefits.
Man, this is a terriffic idea.
Yes, new form of invasion of privacy. They're good in theory, bad in practice. That's all I need to do is to be catalogged, tagged, numbered, and ID'd. Yeah, sure. I just need everyone to know where I am, my every step, everything I do, seeing if I wiped my nose, showered daily, ate properly. I hope these die quickly and people wake up to the fact that these aren't convinence items. They're F'ing invasion of privacy and another way to strip away what last few shreads of freedom we have. F'ing losers.
Just use an icepick to perforate the chip. :)
This decision was mentioned a few days ago in the Times I think, and the intent to transmit tire pressures was specified. As for privacy problems, I think it's a little premature. Anyone close enough to scan your "tire chips" could just write down or photograph your license plate anyway (thouse red light cameras come pretty close), and soon enough with OCR traffic cameras will be able to record your passing. So anonymity in public is a fleeting thing anyway, and the Fourth Amendment won't stop it.
Also, it is easy enough to buy tires anonymously by using the green stuff.
To protect privacy, campaigning has to focus on the weak leak: The government. That the administration would even propose TIA reflects a serious problem already; privacy is the orphan right.
but I sure as hell would like to know how they're planning to embed miniature electronic devices in rubber.
Things I'd like to know are;
1) How is this thing powered?
2) Assuming it's battery powered, how long will it last?
3) What will happen when the power supply runs out?
5) What's the point of the device in the first place? Can I find back my stolen wheels by reporting the theft to Michelin and the Authorities?
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
Seriously, what's to say, after EVERYTHING is tagged, that the masses could not also be tagged themselves? The Government tells women what they can and can't do with their own bodies all the time (abortion). Extend that control to men's bodies as well, and add human-chip implants.
You can already buy pressure monitors for your tires. It's not as cool as an embedded pressure gauge, but it does the job and it's wireless so you can get realtime data.
a rt ire_all.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/smartire/sm
And that is because I have nothing to hide.
Currently we rely on positioning techniques such as cell cite triangulation for solving murders and the like. Imagine if we could identify everyone who was close to the scene of a murder or rape?
Surely the privacy implications should be balanced with the crime fighting implications?
There was a similar story posted on OSNews around 2 weeks ago, here : http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2545
-------------
anjotoes
I would buy these in an instant, if it came with a portable reciever, at reasonable cost, of course. Ideally, it would be conntected to a pressure sensor, allowing me to instantly read current tyre pressure. Even knowing the recommended PSI and date of manufacture, as stated in the article, would be useful information to have.
If the only people able to easily read these tags are the manufacturer and the government, then I'm not really interested.Other than that, Michelin do make great tyres.
-My Karma ran over your Dogma
That I can see three "Your Rights Online" stories on the /. front page.
However, Firestone and others are quite capable of using this as a marketing advantage. Like other such privacy concerns, its a matter of how many manufacturers jump on board.
"the kingdom of heaven must be taken by storm."
Actually, they're working on automatic tire gauges as well as automagically pumping up your tires while you drive.
clancey
I'm sure that's a misdemeanor in most states.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
It's not uncommon for Tire stores to hang on to some tires that still had some good tread on them, as a result of a customer saying replace all my tires, even when all four don't really need replacing.
Sooo, when it comes to tracking.....kinda pointless
and they actually use spread-spectrum radio to communicate the level back to the driver in real time.
Cost a lot more then RFID tags, I'm sure.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If you car is "suddenly" equipt with five (don't forget the spare) transmitters that each broadcast a unique serial number in response to a promiscuously broadcasted request, well, that is "bad" from a privacy standpoint.
Now associate those numbers with your VIN (Vehicle Identification Number) which uniquely identifies your car.
Your VIN is already connected to things like your name, address, insurance carrier and so on.
So now you are driving down a street and any number of automated systems can know it is you (well, your car at least). So you have essentially been tagged like a spring buck.
Worse, but more interesting, a well equipt "ring" of duck-and-squat or similar con artists can now "interview" your car to see if you've got good rip-off potential.
Authorities can target and track you. Who needs racial profiling? The cop is asleep in his car when an alarm goes off to tell him someone meeting his favorite criteria is driving by. How about "that car is owned by a white person" listing getting your black roomate killed for borrowing your car?
Far worse than that, the piece in question is easily accessable.
If systems (toll booths etc?) start using this data for any purpose then I could "swap out" one of your tires and drive around "as you", possibly for days. When was the last time you *really* looked at your passenger side rear wheel? How about your spare?
In even legitimate cases ("Sure Clem, you can borrow my snow tires for the weekend...") of transfer you could become identity-entangled with who knows what...
Being made "trackable" is always a rights issue.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
Umm what? RFID tags have a range of about 5 meters and are powered via induction from the tag reader.
None of the things he mentioned are possible.
How on earth did this get +2 insightful?
There are talking of adding RF monitors of temperature and preasure. All we need is some way to disable the unique ID transmission.
Fight Spammers!
Coming Soon! Condoms with RFIDs, for those annoying paternity suits!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
now tires can be identified as stolin just by a cop pointing an instument at them.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
just microwave your tires on the high setting for 60 seconds
My friend, you are very true. I, being Christian (call me religious or whatever you want to), have no doubt that this verse in the Bible will come true very soon :
Revelation 13:
16 -> He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to recieve a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17 -> so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Mark these words... The technology for such a mark is being developed rapidly these days, and the complete invasion of privacy is inevitable IMO.
---insignia----
I'd be all for this if it were Firestone. That way, when my tire goes, they'll be able to identify my body.
What I would like to see, is an RFID in a tire, along with a small amount of explosive and an RF detonator. That way, when someone acts like a nitwit in traffic, you can blow their tires. If you like, you can even warn them before you do it.
As this type of technology becomes cheaper you are going to see a lot of this type of stuff. Not because corporations give a shit about where you drove your Michelins, but rather as protection against piracy and theft of items that get knocked off or stolen with great frequency. Piracy (not trading MP3s or warez, but counterfeit goods) is a huge business that a lot of companies are looking to counter in some way.
Seems like we give up personal freedoms and anonymity for the sake of convenience these days. Next will come the cashless society where every purchase can be tracked.
When millions disappear from earth, it's not aliens, it's the rapture.
Last I checked every car had a lisence plate that was pretty easy to read - via automated cameras and relatively simple OCR software - this is nothing new. If they really want to know you went through the toll booth they can already find out (Canada has highways that operate this way, billing users by scanning their plates and sending them a periodic bill in the mail)
Not that Canada is exactly a bastion of liberty - but the point is that this doesn't really enable any new privacy "problems"
David
How is an RFID in your tire an invasion of privacy? First, it's a serial number, period. Even IF the serial is associated with a VIN, still, how is it an invasion of privacy? How does this challenge your rights to privacy?
Oooh, someone is going to walk up to your car and KNOW what the serial number of the Michelin tire you bought is.
Seriously, I see this as GOOD. If there is an association of VIN to serial number then the police can track YOUR stolen car when the thieves strip it.
People need to get off the RFID kick. My CAT has an RFID. By itself it's nothing, but because that RFID serial is linked to my name in the issuer's database, I will get my cat back if he gets lost.
People need people need to understand RFID != privacy invasion.
For the folks who are posting about tire pressure monitors: as has been said, they're already available in some cars.
Generally, but AFAIK not exclusively, this is done on cars that come stock with run-flat tires. It's possible to have a run-flat go flat and not notice it at all, especially if cruising on the highway. Running on a flat run-flat for extended lengths of time will destroy them.
Therefore, on cars with runflats you get tire pressure monitoring systems. Not paying the $150 for it isn't an option, unless you want to stand a good risk of messing up your (expensive) tires should you ever get a flat.
You can also buy a stand-alone kit from Tire Rack, as someone else on this thread linked to.
I don't think you know what RFID is. RFID is a very small chip with no power source of its own. When it comes close to a specialized broadcaster, the chip will be powered via. induction and broadcast a small tiny ID signal back. Your Range Rover probably has a commercial satelite service called OnStar, which is a very different thing than RFID.
Maybe this way I could track down the bastard that jacked my girlfriends rims...
I found an article that discusses this technology in depth on scientific america. Heres a snipped url. VERY interesting!
http://snurl.com/mm7
The uses planned for some aspects of this technology are frightning.
"The Government tells women what they can and can't do with their own bodies all the time (abortion)"
That is a very different (and pro abortion viewpoint) issue.
The government involvement with abortion is whether or not that governing body recognises the baby as a seperate entity or not.
In which case we have:
Pro Abortion: It is a part of the mother's body and she can do as she wishes. (No restriction on what the person does to their own body)
Against Abortion: The baby is a seperate entity from the mother. The mother is given all rights due to a guardian (Which does not include killing them).(No restriction on what the person does to their own body)
The point of this is that you will find that laws governing what you can do to your own body (eg: mandatory tagging) are a seperate issue.
Since a lot of ppl are asking a lot of the same questions about RFID devices, I thought I'd answer some here.
More information can be had from Microchip, a leading manufacturer of RFID devices. A lot of this information is coming from their RFID Design Guide
1. What is an RFID tag?
An RFID tag is a very small microcontroller and radio transmitter/receiver. They typically consist of a single chip and a single coil which behaves as an antenna.
2. What does an RFID tag transmit?
Most RFID tags transmit a single large integer number, unique to that individual tag. A serial number, if you will. Some RF tags also have a very small amount of ROM/EEPROM, and so could transmit a little more info and can even be reprogrammed by the "reader".
3. How are they powered?
The RFID "reader" device emits RF energy. The RFID tag receives this energy and uses it to power itself. It's a lot like an old AM crystal radio. The device transmits its number over and over at a very high bps for a high level of data redundancy.
There is a whole shitload more technical modulation theory and stuff that goes on here which I'm leaving out. If you aren't a ham or other radio type person it would probably be meaningless. Again if you would like more info, look here.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
...who want to give privacy a close shave. check out Gillette
OK, this is retarded. There's nothing to worry about. ALL tire companies are required to do this, up until now, it's been done with paper. Michelin is switching to this new RFID system because they are less dificult to put on, last the life of the tire, and other information can be stored on it. Also, this only applies to OE tires, there are no plans to include this on replacement tires. About privacy concerns, why the hell would anyone be worried about tacking where tires have been? It would be extremely difficult, expensive, require the colaboration of many different people, and be completely useless to anyone--yeah, I bet toll road owners are rushing to install this. Michelin is switching because it is an easier way to comply with the law. All tire companies have been after this--a RFID tag which can be cured in rubber--and I expect to see all tire companies (Good Year, and Firestone included) switch to these RFID tags very soon. See? Nothing to worry about.
since u don't know shit about what you are driving, can I have your RR?
Unless you run out of gas on a highway running through your dealers garage, your SOL.
RFID != Onstar, or any other sat service.
Jesus
count me in.
First of all, privacy's not really a big issue in this instance A good portion of driving happens on public roadways already -- where one is obligated to have the car's license plates plainly visible (which can, all by themselves, be used as identifying information). This coupled with the necessity of the ability to produce a valid drivers license and vehicle registration where circumstances warrant shows that a person doesn't really have much right to privacy while driving anyways.
Secondly, identifying arbitrary individuals with this would be like finding a needle in a haystack (more specifically, like getting one particular needle out of a haystack made of almost identical needles).
Besides... the usefulness that technology like this would have for being able to track stolen vehicles is obvious.
Oh, I do agree with the original poster on the point that embedding tire gauges into tires would be a really cool feature.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I found an article that discusses this technology in depth on scientific america. Heres a snipped url. VERY interesting! article here The uses planned for some aspects of this technology are frightning.
Only three kinds of people will let this change their behavior:
1. The truly paranoid
2. The truly criminal
3. People whose self-esteem rests on believing that everyone but them is crooked and evil.
People can surveil you anywhere you go, your car can be identified in commercial satellite imagery, the grocery knows what you buy, the phone company knows who you call, the cable company knows what TV programs you watch, and your ISP knows what web sites you visit and who gets your email.....and now you're upset?
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Changing more than 3 tires will change your vehicle's license number, and you will have to reinsure your vehicle.
Wonder if they're only on automobile tires. I'll be damned if I'm going to give up the Pilot Sports. Best motorcycle tire by far. Even if they did implant RFIDs in them, they'd probably go haywire at 150+ MPH when I ride with my friends.
It seems to me that RFID tags are like GPS: They are a voluntary technology. GPS is easily jammed, and RFID tags are easily destroyed by overloading them with energy at their resonant frequency.
So, if they present a privacy invasion, they will simply be destroyed.
RFID tags could be jammed, also. Your Honda could be rigged to say it has 34 tires purchased in Brazil.
It would also make automating speeding tickets a lot easier. Just calcualate the time and distance between sensors and automatically generate a speeding ticket.
can you imagine if the car scanned/logged the tires also. Imagine the car not starting if you have mismached tires. Or if the car would not go over the max rated speed of the tire. Or even the car not starting at all if there was a recall (Think onstar for net connectivty) on the tires you currently are driving on. Or the car turining you in for speeding. This is all looking out for _your_ safty. (ha, heavy scarsim) C'mon, Im a grown up. I handle myself. You dont wory about me. can we stop this monitoring crap , now I have to carry around a GPS jammer and a RFID jammer. America home of the free.
At most major intersections these days they lay wires in the pavement. You can see the grooves they cut for them. Do you think they REALLY turn the light green? It would be relatively inexpensive for a city to use those wires (or similar wires) to read the RFID tag in EVERY SINGLE TIRE THAT GOES THROUGH THAT INTERSECTION, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. You think someone is just going to write those all down?
They could place scanners every 1/4 mile along the interstate and read the tag as your car drives by at 80mph. You're telling me someone could just read your plate in THAT situation?
Any place where there's pavement they could embed readers in it. You're tires are closer than 24 inches to the ground most of the time.
Maybe at tollbooths they could just read your plate, but if they use tollbooths to read your plate AND corrolate it to your tire IDs, then they can track you almost anywhere anytime. Of course many tollbooths ALREADY are equipped with EZPasses. There's voluntary tracking for you.
To everyone who said "if they're close enough to scan your tires they could just read your plate", think harder.
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Could this be used to pop tires?
Ya, I know someone close enough could just knife 'em, but for some reason I'm envisioning a whole bunch going at once, perhaps the result of military testing like what was setting off those car alarms...
"There are people who do not love their fellow human being, and I _hate_ people like that!" - Tom Lehrer
This is primarily being taken up by the material handling industry as a means of stock/inventory movement and control. Its primary purpose is finished once the tyre is installed in your car. (Return visits to the manufacturer or an agent not withstanding). Any usage whilst the product is attached to your car is just a bonus (or a problem depending upon your point of view). In the next few years you should expect to see RFID chips in anything that currently displays a barcode including clothes, shoes underwear etc etc. Gillette has ordered half a million of these chips - if it's cheap enough to slap on a razor, it's cheap enough to slap on just about anything. As another thought, one of the primary VCs of "Alien Technology" (I'm too lazy to track down the URL) - the firm that's leading the pack here and incidentally the firm used by Gillette - is one of the worlds largest barcoding and labeling companies. Food for thought. (Hey, even those annoying individual stickers on apples could have a chip in them - that really is food for thought)
And then, in about three decades:
"Capricorn 14. Year of The City 2040. Carousel begins..."
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
so i don't need to scan your damn tires
I took a week-long root cause analysis class which centered itself around the Firestone/Ford issue. Mind you, I'm not going to repeat the whole procedure here; you can look it up yourself.
Our class' conclusion (mind you, obviously biased) that a combination of things was at fault. While Firestone took the fallout, it was possibly Ford (or both) with the blame.
Interesting things to note (pardon me if I screw up some of these):
That's all I'll say on the topic. IANACE (Car Expert), so I'll leave the nitty-gritty details to the professionals. The only humorous thing I'll mention is that shop dealers tell me it is the richest people who tend to ask for the cheapest tires; "What do you mean my $40,000+ super-expensive convertable requires a $300+ set of tires?"
What a time to have to go back to Firestones..
3000 dead over past 2 years, still no free Palestinians, still
I just bought some new tires. Anybody here who can tell me how to get my slackware install to work? I need a new microkernel for a PIC 16F877. I don't need any X-windows since I can't seem to find any display other than these letters on the sidewall. I just need a little help from the TireBox Linux crowd- would Mandrake be a better choice? I've got that on my Toast-R-Oven.
everything that has been written in various prophecies or ancient rumours and hopi, inka, mayan and other stuff is falling into places...
when will people start to see the big picture...
this world cant escape whats been foreseen...
Dear Mr Bloggs
Our records indicate that you have neglected to rotate your tyres in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. As this is in violation with state safety requirements, your second credit card (1253-2653-7533-6643) has been debited the standard fee of $200.00.
As a complimentary service, we have not deited your first credit card (5633-1343-5544-2342) as your recent purchase of sex toys from BigBum Emporium last thursday has taken you close to your credit limit on that card.
Also note that your listening to an auauthorised track from 'Eminem's Greatest Hits' last thursday night has been noted and forwarded to out appropriate department.
As a regular user of our infringement services, we would like to offer you membership of our elite Gold Violater's Club. Membership has many benefits for the frequent offender, as outlined in the brochures currently deposited in your three email accounts.
I guess my days of buying road hazard insurance for only one tire is gone...
oh great, they can use to track speeding.
This is just another step towards them trying to stop people from speeding. First they have cops on patrol. Then they have air tracking. Then they check times with EZPass. Next they time the amount of time it takes to go througha security camara. And now this! They have gone too far in trying to keep people from speeding! This is the last straw... AGAIN!
Live life to the fullest. It's not that life is short, but that you are dead for so long.
My parents live in a rather hoity-toity neighborhood, where access is tightly controlled. Each non-manned entry gate is equipped with inductive loops embedded in the street. These read a device which is magnetically attached underneath a resident's vehicle by the homeowner's association. The device is a hard plastic capsule that is riveted to a metal backing. There are two VERY strong magnets (like the type found in hard disk acutators) that keep this contraption stuck to the bottom of the car. When a resident drives their car up to the gate, it opens automatically.
There is a computer within the security center that logs entries and exits and can also be used to revoke access (say someone steals the device/car/etc.).
Recently, the City of San Diego embarked on a major project to "upgrade" the traffic sensor loops at controlled intersections. There are now additional loops about 50 yards before each intersection, which are typically run into a 4-ft. cabinet at the side of the road.
These have also been mysteriously installed on some roads where there are no traffic signals. Yes, I realize the primary purpose of these devices would most likely be to meter traffic speed and flow, but imagine if the police wanted to keep tabs on a certain individual and thus placed one of these devices on a suspect's car, allowing them to be traced at every intersection, freeway on/off ramp, and even along smaller highways.
Definitely interesting stuff.
Some points:
First, I've never heard of police cars being equipped with live OCR equipment. First you'd have to be able to single out the license plate text from that of the neighboring car, or a road sign, or even a piece of litter tumbling across your Line-of-Sight.
Second, the only reason to have such live OCR would be for aid in automating vehicle tracking. While the ACLU (or international counterparts) would be quick to try to plaster attention over this, people already consider it common.
Third, searches through public databases take time. It's not like they'll be able to identify you the moment their computer gets a lock on your identifying characteristic. Local caching would be prohibitively expensive for your average police department, no matter what the size of the city.
Fourth, there's really no range limit on how far away you could detect these things. Your effective range depends on the power being broadcasted at, and the sensitivity of your instruments. It being a digital signal makes the matter a heck of a lot easier.
Fifth, it might be possible to fry the RFID device by feeding it so much RF power that its circuitry melts. (I know I'd certainly try if I had tires or clothing that had these devices. I'd go park next to a high-power radio tower for a few hours.) There'd certainly be a market in devices capable of high-power directional transmissions. The devices are probably already illegal.
Sixth, the government is going to have a hell of a time passing laws prohibiting unlicensed transfer of RFID-enabled devices. And I can tell you that laws regulating the sales and transfers of something so common as tires (and, later, clothing, shoes, etc.).
Seventh, if you need an alibi, intentionally broadcast one of your RFIDs at, say, forty watts. (Talk about getting around a lot!) Or just send someone driving around with your RFID clothing, or driving around in your car.
Eighth, 1984 should have been titled 2005. People don't take it seriously because the things it predicted didn't happen by 1984.
What's this Submit thingy do?
From the article: Michelin (the tire manufacturer) has announced that it is planning on embedding RFID transmitters into every tire. The article states that 'the microchip stores the tire's unique ID, which can be associated with the vehicle identification number.' Let the privacy invasion begin!
Ken Thompson who we all know and love from UNIX lore has written Reflections on Trusting Trust which describes just this problem.
Imagine that you insert a backdoor into a compiler, so that everything the compiler compiles is trojaned. If the compiler detects that it is recompiling itself, it quietly reinserts the trojan code. The actual source code to the trojan might be wiped out, but as long as you are running infected binaries, it will keep popping up again and again.
From the paper: "First we compile the modified source with the normal C compiler to produce a bugged binary. We install this binary as the official C. We can now remove the bugs from the source of the compiler and the new binary will reinsert the bugs whenever it is compiled. Of course, the login command will remain bugged with no trace in source anywhere."
A very interesting read.
RFID tags are passive devices; they're powered by an inductive coil in an electromagnetic field. That means that their maximum range is about two meters, so there's no easy way that they could be used to track someone.
Call me crazy, but wouldn't it be relatively easy to create a signal (RF, microwave, etc) powerful enough to destroy such chips?
When someone might yell at me, it has to be OpenBSD.
At the end of the article there's a link with info about a chip that measures pressure and temperature of the tires: ./ed :( anyone got more info about it?
http://www.rfidjournal.com/article/view/93/1/1/
That enables the driver to know when the pressure of one particular tire drops below a certain level
Note: at the time of posting this the page seems
I'm a chainsmokin' alcoholic sociopath, so-ci-o-path
guess I'm gonna have to start making everything by hand using materials from my backyard.
I know a great many people see this as nothing to worry about. If you're not doing anything wrong what will all this tagging and tracking really mean? But! I don't want anyone tracking shit about me. Its none of their damn business. Imagine this. when was the last time you were having a private conversation and someone was standing by staring at you? Imagine being stared at all the time by people you can't see and don't even know that they know what style of underwear you have on. All of this tagging of shit, its none of your fucking business. get out of my pants!
-
I've got to assume there's some way to fry the imbedded RFID tags. No doubt if you send the right signal at them (eg, too strong), or x-ray them or something you can burn out the circuits. Who's going to be first to post schematics?
plan to sell tinfoil coated tires as an upgrade?
Michelin already uses barcodes to track every tire they manufacture. Just look on the sidewall of any Michelin tire to see the barcode strip. The tires are usually install with the barcodes facing towards the inside of the wheel well.
I worked in the tire retail channel (consumer & commercial) for 5 years. Every tire already has a unique id...this is just an improvement on the process.
This will allow for improved tracking of products and product defects/hazards. Nothing new in terms of associating a tire with a car or owner. In fact, if someone steals your tires/wheels, you just might stand a better chance of recovery.
The black helicopters already have enough means to track you...they don't need help from the tire industry.
Have sesnors that read the rfid tags of the the
car in each parking space. Then use the info collected to create a list of empty parking
spaces. Then transmit the gps cordinates of each
empty space on a predfined frequency. That way I
could have my cars navigation system direct me to
the nearest available parking spot.
That way I don't have to drive around for an hour to find a spot.
There is several flaws with this Idea, but atleast
it is not a nother there goes my privacy post.
Cars already have unique identifiers (license plates), but those have to be visually read and interpreted by a human being... THAT'S the difference.
It's the work of 2 minutes to swap plates with a similar-appearing car in some parking lot... but a bit harder to swap out tires; most people keep the same set for years... 50-60K miles is 3-4+ years of driving for the average american. If implanting microchips in the human body hits a roadblock (privacy concerns, "number-of-the-beast" arguments), then why not track the vehicle? It's practically the same thing.
Vehicles are used mostly by single individuals, or single households with driving-age teenagers. Knowing where a vehicle goes is knowing what the household does. Marketing types have feverish dreams about the kind of demographic data you could gather with this.
This could also be useful for law enforcement, but not in the immediate future. What the law-enforcement-as-big-brother scenario lacks is a network of tranmitter/receiver modules embedded in the roads and curbs. Once those are commonplace, automated tracking of a vehicle becomes a piece of cake.
Most people don't realize just how labor-intensive a good surveillance operation can be. You need multiple teams, several different vehicles, and personnel skilled in the art of being unobtrusive. Visually surveiling someone requires manpower, training, and can be difficult under the best of circumstances (let alone at night, or in bad weather). GPS units are being used for this, but planting them can be a challenge, and a technically saavy target could detect or jam the transmission. Unique IDs in the tires and a network of readers might not give up-to-the-second velocity and position data, but they might be good enough...
Car 1: "I got caught at the traffic light... lost 'im"
Dispatcher: "He just took 131st street west... Car 2, turn right and pick him up at the next cross-street"
Car 2: "got it"
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I used to work for a software firm, who were based in a large building and with multiple tennants. To control access to our part of the building we were issued with contactless swipe cards. Which are a sort of crude, low power RFID system.
We thought they were purely for access control, but we were in for a surprise. The management had fitted special sensors at the toilet and cafe doors as well as at the drinks machines and smoking rooms. We had no idea management had done this, we just though new heating control thermometers were being fitted.
Once our bi-monthly productivity appraisals came round we were presented with a detailed breakdown of our movement round the building. I was asked why I made 12 visits to the coffee machine in one day (all drinks were free) and why I once spent more than 10 minutes in the toilet,
What management had done was turn the securty cards in to tracking devices. Basically if we went within 4 feet of these sensors, it was logged. We had always assumed that the cards had to be within 2 inches of a sensor to be recognised, not so aparently. This whole setup was implemented to try and achieve productivity gains, in fact it did the opposite. A lot of people spent more and more time on the toilet for some reason and other people developed a habit of forgetting their cards and having to get security to release the doors remotely.
The moral of the story is what started as a innocent security system, turned in to a tracking system which caused people serious stress. I know my employers are allowed to know what I do on their time, but having to justify my toilet habits is my idea of how such technology as RFID systems can be misused. Incidentally, the system was switched off after the unions got on the case.
If RFID tags where in everything, and the govt. had RFID readers everywhere, then I might be a little concerned. However, even if RFIDs where that pervasive, it would still be easy to become invisible to all those RFID scanners. Just microwave all your clothes. As small as ther are I cannot imagine an RFID tag being able to remain intact when hit with a large EM field. Tracking down and disabling RFIDs in your vehicle shouldn't be that difficult either.
Recalls are not driving this. It would be cheaper to do this another way and unique IDs are not needed for recalls.
Does anyone think it's cheaper to "invest" in all new equipment than it is to use established bar codes? Tell me why the company can't paint a nice little white bar coded serial number on the side of the tire? Everyone's got barcode readers and they would be more practical. How is a tire shop going to check the serial number of a single tire, when every tire in range answers?
RFIDs are only useful for others who have nothing to do with tire recalls. Does anyone really expect to be told that their tires are recalled? Most recalls are silent, you either find out about them on your own from paid advertisements or you don't. While it would be very nice for Michalin to contact me if my particular lot of tires is bum, I don't see what that has to do with someone being able to ID my car from a distance. If tire lot is all you need, why the unique number? Won't unique serial numbers actually impeed lot recognition? When tires are sold at a shop all the information the company needs to meet the stated goal is collected. After that, no one else needs to know who you are.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Though I suspect that given the distances I drive here in Australia, it's unlikely to ever be a problem.
After all, they can't even maintain mobile phone coverage without a fairly hefty power input.
Speaking of built-in pressure gates in tires, when I was 7 I gave my father for father's day 4 screw caps with built-in pressure gates that I got from a catalog. He put them on and the next morning all 4 tires were flat. I found one of them in a box when I visited him over Christmas...I guess he kept it.
I've seen a picture of one of these tires in some other article. Michelin is so proud of solving the technical challenges, they are putting stickers on the side of the tires. Two years from now, if you want to know if its in your tire, look for the sticker. After all, the "technicians" changing your oil need to be able to tell if they can use the new-fangled tire reader on your tires or not.
Big Business is watched by YOU!
Oh, wait, I have the winner: Kia! ;-)
Oh, wait, the winner is GM.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Free turkeys for the entire month of November and free ham the entire month of december.
And 20% off coupons every other day.
sounds like a great idea to me.
I'm in.
(510) THE-SCAM is my phone number too.
That's (510) 843-7226.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
The police here in Australia (well Victoria but I believe that all the other states use it as well) use speed camera and red light cameras. The pictures are processed automatically by computer to read your number plate and automatically send out the bill. The process is nearly entirely automated. In fact the camera operators are now private companies rather than tying up police watching a camera in a car.
Go out and get sailing!
>The Government tells women what they can and can't do with their own bodies all the time (abortion).
Hmmm, an abortion troll: I'll bite.
Eric Cartman of South P, didn't your mother try to have you aborted at the 40th trimester? Stop telling your mother what to do with her body and get yourself aborted already! I mean, she asked for it and the government refused to do it! Go ahead and support your mother!
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
See. i wasn't nuts..
damn i wish i was wrong about this stuff once in a while..
Cant everyone see what is happening? We are loosing all our rights and freedoms and privacy at an alarmingly increasing rate..
Its time to fight back.. once and for all. Its time for the revolution people.. Its time.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
That's too rich, suggesting people put an ice pick into their tire then mispelling link as leak. What a clever devil you must think you are.
Also, it is easy enough to buy tires anonymously by using the green stuff.
They plan to collect VID numbers, which are attached to you by legally requried (in most states) insurance, and perhaps you automobile loan. Some people who have enough of the green stuff to buy whole automobiles can also just put it in a company name and spare themselves the imediate identification on toll roads and anywhere else the govenment cares to track your whereabouts.
So now it will be that anonymous travel is dead. It was already dead in the air. Now your comming and going from towns can be tracked. This is evil indeed as it is expensive and not needed. Total Information Awareness for Homeland Security will make you free, no? Knowledge is Power? You bet it is, power over you.
As you think privacy is so dead and the fourth amendment is so useless, do you mind if we cand I search your house a few times to harass you? After we confirm a patern of suspicious travel and cash usage, that is. Let's see, you must be a terrorist to:
"No, it's not true!," cries MacAndrew, as he's hauled away for his beating. "I've been a good citezen, I swear, NOOOoooooo, I did not ask anyone to thwart the will of congress by sticking ice picks into tires!"
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Imagine a beowulf cluster of these....
if they put them in condoms, imagine the possibilities:
"Don't fuck without homeland security!"
"Keeping your borders safe from viral terrorists!"
"Total Information Awareness: Buddy, you don't need the 'large' condoms"
"TIA: For HER pleasure"
Why not use a system that charges the unit by the rotation of the tire, storing the energy in a capacitor? It seem to me like that would be the ideal way to power such a system.
Can you document this?
I just purchased a Range Rover (2003) and saw nothing of the sort mentioned anywhere in the sales literature, technical documentation, or owners manuals.
It will match the ones in your twenty dollar bills now ! BUY Tin foil shares. I should start my own spam company and profit !
Why is this a problem? You probably think they want to see what kind of tires are on the road at any given time.
How about theft of wheels & tires? There's a lot of that out there and finding the stolen goods can be valuable.
What if it has gps capability and can track where they are? Well.. if that's the case, even better. The tire company can track how many miles particular tires are running and the conditions.
If tire pressure guages were included, that would just rock - and even add quite a value to the manfuacturer when those SUV rollover claims are made.
EZPASS is the mark of the beast
SUV's support terrorism !
Lots of lamenting about privacy here - and I totally agree.
But - does anybody know how to simply/effectively fuck these things up?
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
All newborns will be protected with a tiny chip installed under their skin in the palm of their hand
Doh! cant fix that one with the microwave
SUV's support terrorism !
New slogan:
"Michelin - We know what's riding on your tires."
Walk places.
Take the fucking bus.
Ride around on your banned Segway.
"When pogo-sticks get outlawed, only outlaws will bounce around and not be tracked by the Feds."
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders!
Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.
A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFid chips embedded in the tire).
Yup. My brother works on them.
Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.
Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.
I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].
It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.
Photos of chips before molded into tires:
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01
(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertess usually into the url above to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)
You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.
Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.htm
but the fact is... YOU PROBABLY ALREADY HAVE A RADIO TRANSPONDER not counting your digital cell phone which is routinely silently pulsed in CA bay area each rush hour morning unless turned off (consult Wired Magazine Expose article). Those data point pulses are used by NSA on occasions.
The us FBI with NRO/NSA blessings, has requested us gov make this tire scanning information as secret as the information regarding all us inkjet printers sold in usa in the last 3 years using "yellow" GUID barcode under dark ink regions to serialize printouts to thwart counterfeiting of 20 dollar bills. (30 to 40 percent of ALL California counterfeiting is done using cheap Epson inkjet printers, most purchased with credit cards foolishly). Luckily court dockets divulge the existence of the Epson serial numbers on your printouts... but nobody except a handful of people know about this Tire scanning upgrade to big brother's arsenal.
YOU MUST BUY NEUTRALIZED OR FOREIGN TIRES!!!!! Soon such tires will become illegal to import or manufacture, just as Gasoline must have "Taggants" added or gasoline is illegal, as are non-self-aging 9 mm bullets.
It is currently VERY illegal to buy or disable the "911 help" GPS emitter in digital cell phones in the US or ship a modified phone across state borders, but it is still legal to turn off your cell phone in your car while travelling. As you should. And you should be wary of your tires now too. : http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:TAQIKjBI01gC
Alternatively you could illegally build jamming devices at : 13.56 MHz, + 1,356 MHz +- many freqs (TI-RFid) and a few others. If microwave is ever employed you might not be able to effectively jam but your brain would possibly cook over time, as it now known as of this year that the three harmonic resonances of water are not the only chemical actions harming human tissue at gigaherz frequencies. Jammers would be illegal and violators easy to locate. Tire removal is the only option.
RFIDs have been covertly used and sold by TI for over ten years are in many many products... and now your tires are being read by the us gov as you drive at speeds of up to 100 Mph on primary US interstate corridors. (Actually 160 km/h).
Those same US interstate corridors have radiation detectors too, but a small layer of stacks of interlocked graphite blocks those from detecting stealthy deliveries. Graphite blocks are IDEAL for shipping "dirty bomb" components, I believe.
Anyway, regarding tire radio transmitters: the sokymat LOGI 160, and sokymat LOGI 120) are just SOME of the transponders found in modern tires. The earliest tire radio spy chips had only 64 bit serial numbers but they have rapidly evolved post Sept 11 bombings: LOGI 160 LOGI 120 has 224 bit R/W memory (sokymat.ch) to be marked using external hand help injectors with "salt" info when the fbi tags your parked car.
Basically the FBI "marks your car" without touching it physically, thus eliminating a "warrant" to put a locater on your vehicle. Just as the FBI can listen to you while you are at home by LEGALLY bouncing an infrared beam off your vibrating window pane and modulating the signal, the US Gov can LEGALLY inject (program) a saltable read-write sokymat LOGI eeprom tire chip (and other brands of tire transponders)
Using these chips to track people while they drive is actually the idea of the us gov, and current chips CANNOT BE DISABLED or removed. They hope ALL tires will have these chips in 5 years and hope people have a very hard time finding non-chipped tires. Removing the chips is near impossible without destroying the tire as the chips were designed with that DARPA design goal.
They are hardened against removal or heat damage or easy eye detection and can be almost ANYWHERE in the new "big brother" tires. In fact in current models they are integrated early and deep into the substrate of the tire as per US FBI request.
Our freedom of travel are going away in 2003, because now there is an international STANDARD for all tire transponder RFID chips and in 2004 nearly ALL USA cars will have them. Refer to AIAG B-11 ADC, (B-11 is coincidentally Post Sept 11 fastrack initiative by US Gov to speed up tire chip standardization to one read-back standard for highway usage).
The AIAG is "The Automotive Industry Action Group"
The non proprietary (non-sokymat controlled) standard is the AIAG B-11 standard is the "Tire Label and Radio Frequency Identification" standard
"ADC" stands for "Automatic Data Collection"
The "AIDCW" is the US gov manipulated "Automatic Identification Data Collection Work Group"
The standard was started and finished rapidly in less than a year as a direct consequence of the Sep 11 attacks by Saudi nationals.
I believe detection of the AIAG B-11 radio chips (RFIS serial number transponders) in the upgraded car tracking http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html is currently secret knowledge. Another reason to leave "finger print on Driver license" California, but Ohio gets it next, as will every other state eventually.
The AIAG is claiming the chips reduce car theft, assist in tracking defects, and assists error-proofing the tire assembly process. But the real secret is that these 5 cent devices are a us government backed initiative to track citizens travel without their consent or ability to disable the transponders in any way.
All tire manufacturers are forced to comply AIAG B-11 3.0 Radio Tire tracking standard by the 2004 model year.
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:-qJPsZjkMA
Viewing b11 synopsis is free, downloads from that are $10 and tracked by the FBI. Use the google cache to avoid leaving breadcrumbs.
A huge (28 megabyte compressed zip) video of a tire being scanned remotely is at http://mows.aiag.org/ScriptContent/videos/ (the file is "video Aiagb-11.zip"). I would use a proxie when touching it. The FBI is monitoring the "curious" hackers.
And just as showerheads are now illegal to import into the USA from Canada or mexico, as are drums of industrial Freon, and standard size toilets are illegal to import for home use, soon car tires without radio transponders will be illegal to bring across state borders.
The US gov is getting away with this. You read it here first.
Learn and read.
I broke this story 5 months ago here and a few times after that. Each time, the FBI or Gov employees modded me down to -1. But if moderation WORKED, then you would have known all this 4 or 5 months ago instead of in 2003, when all tires have us gov mandated chips in them to track you on the highway (after they learn your GUID of course).
This will just make it easier for the police to give speeding tickets. When EZ-Pass was first implemented there was musing about checking average speed between toll booths using the EZ-Pass and sending tickets automatically, it was killed because EZ-Pass is a voluntary system so this would have been seen as a major drawback, now if these RFID tags become universal and are associated with your VIN it will be easy to implement a similar system. Another even more creepy use is to monitor a large number of peoples movement throughout a city, simply have rfid readers at every traffic light and you have one of the simplest most intrusive monitoring networks ever conceived. Just because it sounds paranoid doesn't mean it's not potentially correct, if I can think of it so can some power freak in government and I don't think anyone is going to challenge it. Look at the US Patriot Act, it allows several breaches of the most fundamental right of due process and yet no one has even started a court challenge.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
If they're going to embed electronics in tires, I wish they'd start with tiny pressure gauges.
Hey, Timothy, you fucktard, read the article:
Philips and Texas Instruments have also developed pressure and temperature sensors that use battery-powered RFID tags to communicate with a reader in the dashboard. That enables the driver to know when the pressure of one particular tire drops below a certain level (see RFID Chip To Monitor Tire Pressure).
Jeez...
/.'ers need to quit bitching about this shit. If you don't want the stuff in your tires, don't buy them. Despite all of the rampant anti-americanism that plagues the forums of /., you still have a damned choice (tires, country to go live in). At least be thankful for that if you can't be thankful for anything else.
Get a grip. They are just putting a damn chip in your tire. Who cares? So what if "they" know that I have Michelin tires on my Toyota. I couldn't care less. What are they going to do with that information? Track me down? Harass my family? I seriously doubt it.
I work on a RFID project and I am told that eventually the industry wants a unique RFID on every product in the world. Just think, every Coke bottle will have it's own name.
Who needs DNA testing when you have RFID?
So I guess if you see a car parked outside of your building on those pathetic little spare tires they put in cars you should run the other way =P
From what I know of RFID chips, they use a tuned tank circuit to power the return pulse. A relatively strong signal close to the device should easily be able to reduce this circuit to a ruin without hurting anything. I think this is similar to how the tags get disabled that they put on clothes to prevent shoplifting.
If these are in my next $1600cdn set of Michelin Pilot Sports, I'll have a circuit to disable them on the net in the summer. I didn't buy those tires 'cause I like driving 55mph.
..don't panic
http://www.uq.edu.au/education/extra/all.html
magnanomous.
Chip this, chip that, glamorize GPS...
Barcode and chip, the mark of the beast technology is one step closer to reality.
"Why not take the mark of the beast?" some may argue, "everything you own is already chipped anyway!"
Just say NO to this type of technology.
Those cameras are proliferating in the States -- they turn out to be wonderful moneymakers -- and are fairly controversial. There has even been some question whether they improve safety, because motorists who know the cameras are there sometimes behave recklessly to beat the red light or slam on the brakes. I'm waiting to see statistics.
Anyway, I'm almost certain the images are still processed by humans. I'm sure there will be some reluctance to handing is over to a computer, but I was just speculating it would happen. And apparently is has. Now, with a system like that -- plenty of cameras already installed -- why bother with tire chips?
Here is an example of what you describe, I think. I also see via Google various reference to these systems being used in the U.S. -- going back a couple of years! But I'm sure I haven't read about them, only the human mediated system used by Lockheed, which runs the cameras in our area by contract.
Who the hell shoplifts tires?
So, are we going to start seeing people swap tires with each other?
They already do.
Park your car in a garage in New York City. See if you have the same tires when you get it back.
B-)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
If your company had such talented people they could track everyone's visits to the toilet and coffee machine, they could do such wonderful things that productivity loss due to a toilet visit would be so insignificant...
4. From how far away can the tag be read?
The typical range is a few feet, a la Mobil SpeedPass or tollbooth EZPass. Think about how often you come within a few feet of something that could secretly house an RFID tag reader... The THEORETICAL range limit is a few feet PLUS line-of-sight. A high gain antenna on the reader could read tags from a great distance away, just like your Pringles can 802.11 antenna.
Incorrect. RFID tags are powered by the reader, it is possible to intercept the tags response to a reader using a high gain antenna, but at the power levels a RFID tag transmits at, it is unlikely you could pick up a RFID response from more than 50m away, even with a large dish.
To illicit a response without overhearing an exchange, you would need an extremely directional antenna, and even then you are likely to get multiple responses, which makes it useless.
Yeah, why shouldn't women have the right to neutralize the living human inside their fetus?
I used to work for a software firm [...] To control access to our part of the building we were issued with contactless swipe cards.
[...] The management had fitted special sensors at the toilet and cafe doors as well as at the drinks machines and smoking rooms. [...]
Once our bi-monthly productivity appraisals came round we were presented with a detailed breakdown of our movement round the building. I was asked why I made 12 visits to the coffee machine in one day (all drinks were free) and why I once spent more than 10 minutes in the toilet [...]
[...] This whole setup was implemented to try and achieve productivity gains, in fact it did the opposite. [...]
AND, no doubt, led to the resignation of some of the company's best talent (perhaps including yourself).
Please post the name of the company (if it still exists) and any management who were involved with either the decision to deploy this added "feature" or who used its output in performance reviews.
Any executive who is misusing his time and the company's resources in such a fashion should be fired. If he is not immediately fired, his manager's competency is also suspect, as is the competency of HIS manger if HE is retained, and so on.
Further, the board and stockholders have a right to know how their company and investment are being mismanaged.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
You know I usually write off some of the more extream paranoia, but what does this do OTHER than violate your privacy etc. There are a dozens of other ways to uniquly identify tires and other stolen property. Besides wouldnt a thief just use some kind of emp and fry the thing, just jerk the microwave generator out of your microwave, point and click (yes i know it would take a little more work but not much).
The issue is not of them harassing you right now, but of them BEING ABLE TO harass you and your family for any reason 'they' would like to.
exactly... we are aproaching the end of days...
I worked for Michelin for seventeen years, so I might be a resource on this. Michelin management is basically a bunch of Nazi's disguised as french. And that is just the little Napoleon's running around (You know who you are Camille), American management is worse than the french, basically bloodsucking leaches that will steal any idea for their own personal gain (Hi Jim!). These aren't pointy heads, but pointy horned bosses. I use to say buy Michelin for the quality, but if you buy Michelin, you are supporting human rights abuses.
If the RFID tags hit all high price merchandise I have a feeling targeted advertising will LOVE it.
Imagine vans cruising neighborhood after neighborhood pinging the RFID tags at every house and creating a crossreferenced database of where you live and what you buy.
Hell, with regular updates they can even guesstimate your rate of spending on certain products.
So what's the legal situation with doing this?
There is none.. it's too new, and that means the wolves will get to it a year before the laws.
Electronic Tire Pressure Monitors
Several things are different between the license plate, the actual VIN, and having a series of RFID tags put in your tires.
1) The official nmbers are issued and controlled by an official process, not my local mechanic.
2) The tag number and VIN are singular to their purposes. That is, there aren't five and more of these numbers to each veichle at the same time.
3) They (the real numbers) don't transfer between vheciles wihtout official process.
4) They (the real numbers) don't broadcast information beyond line of sight. (This is significant for the same reasons that [legally] "you can not trespass with the eyes" because seeing and being seen are orthogonal operations. If you don't understand this, consider that you can photograph or video people wihtout sound, in public, for any legal purpose, but recording sound or radio is verboten.)
5) RFID tags are actively/electrically "interrogated" and that interrogative action begs to be tied into a larger system.
6) Who will control the concordance of these comercial numbers with the governmental information?
7) Who will see that old or inaccurate information is properly expurgated? (When I take my license plates from the DMV it starts a chain of possession with clear boundries and requirements. If my plates are stolen, there is a clear means to propigate that chain of information. If I recycle my tires when I buy a new set, and Clem "recycles" them by putting them on his trans-am, how do I know and what are my options to separate him from me?
8) "everyone knows" they have license plates and a VIN. How many people will know "automatically" that they are being tracked by their tires?
9) What if the installer transposes the numbers while recording the numbers when installing your tires and now you are the infamous burglar or child molester down the block?
In short, being arbitrarily branded with numbers that will be broadcast in response to all sorts of random queries by unlimited numbers of people is A BAD IDEA.
Rob.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
People are saying who cares:
1) You have to be 2 feet from the tire.
2) You already have license plates
3) This just IDs the tire, not you
4) No one cares about you
Now I'm not a paranoid freak, but these are just stupid arguments as I'll demonstrate.
1) When you pull through the drive through at McD's and the Bank, you are less than 2 feet and sit there for quite some time. McD's might like to now that VIN #12345 always orders a BigMac, and by linking your VIN to you, they know what you like.
2) Yes, but license plates can not be read without direct line of site, by a computer, for little or no cost.
3) This ties the tires to the VIN of your car, which IDs you.
4) The government may not be trying to track me down, but companies would love to have a way to track their customers.
Let's all not get too paranoid, but at least think things through.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
It should be really easy to make a device that emits a mild EMP to fry all RFID devices in range... these things get their power from the transmitter, so they will pick up an EMP more easily than ordinary chips.
I know there are designs for limited-range directed EMP devices out there... you don't need a nuke!
Somebody is going to make good $$$ selling EMP devices... I for one will buy one and run all newly bought tires, clothing, etc., past it.
Why do so many of you define yourselves only as "consumers"? Are you only what you buy? Sad.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Why is everytime a nice idea comes out, everyone has to bash about privacy? This could eventually lead to finding stolen cars, escapees, kidnapings, etc. If bridges and major intersections were equipped with sensors, it would help police locate cars. It could also eliminate high speed chases as polices would simply have to pinpoint the car (as long as it drives where sensors are located)
Now for 99.9% of us, who cares? What's wrong with someone else knowing where you are driving? Are you guys *THAT* paranoid? I don't see anything wrong with this and I think it's a great idea.
-- Leeeter than leet
Man, it's like I'm being tracked day and night. When I think about it, someone knows where I am all the time, and probably why I'm there.
But enough about married life. What's this about tires? The site's slashdotted.
So, if you have the tires installed on your car, they can identify those tires with your vin number, if scanned somehow. Unlike XP, where the OS identifies itself with a particular motherboard, etc., you can move the tires to another vehicle, and they will still hold air. Perhaps you then have to "log on" to the tire makers website, and "change" your tire/vin combination. Apparently, you'll get a username and password when you buy the tires. problem for repair shops, dealers, etc. is the cost of the scanner to find mismatched installations. XP, however, just won't boot in a swapped motherboard situation, unless you call Microsoft and 'splain what happened.
I was shocked to discover that babies are not allowed to leave the hospital until they have been assigned Social Security Numbers!
Talk about Big Brother!
Lesson learned on the manufacturer's part. Now, the devices have current limiting circuitry that disconnects the chip from the antenna when there's a power surge. When the surge dies down, the chip reattaches and the RFID is back in business. These ain't your Momma's RFIDs any more. The new RFIDs can be sewn into clothing and dried in microwave ovens with no ill effect to the chip.
Have you ever bought cheap used tires? Then ask yourself who sold them and why he did so.
I once had to hit the pavement/sidewalk at about 50 km/h to avoid a collision. I guess one tire got hidden structual damage, so i exchanged it. I did the same with a spare tire that lived 10 years in my trunk because i haven't got a flat. Both times i felt very unconfortable paying my recycling fee, because the tires looked still quite good. What if someone, instead of burning the tires, sold those HR tires to some poor soul als used ones? I would have felt much better if there would have been some sort of database where i could put some kind of warning. (I thought about putting a knife in the tire, but it is not as easy as seen on TV)
Tracking security-relevant parts is in my opinion a good idea, just think of cheap pirated spare parts. It is common in aviation industrie, and some cars definitly go faster than small planes.
This is no loss of privacy (think of the license plate), but a great gain of security.
Now, the devices have current limiting circuitry that disconnects the chip from the antenna when there's a power surge. The new RFIDs can be sewn into clothing and dried in microwave ovens with no ill effect to the chip.
WEll, yes they might do that for shoplifters, but no one is going to shoplift tires, and anything that isn't necessary is going to add cost to the tire. So when it comes to added money in the tire, I'm going to take the safe bet and assume that corporate America is going to take the cheapest route with the RFIDs. So, you could probably fry them, unless it is cost negligable to make them tamper proof.
I guess the only good news of this is that soon no one can just go dumping and throw old tires out on the side of the highway anymore. They're gonna know it is you that did it, or at least the tire company when they come to talk to you.
Look at all the uproar over living next to power lines, genetically modified foods, cancer-causing cell phones, and so on.
Some sort of ailment (real or imagined) should be linked to something or other with these tags and technology. People will go insane, have Congressional hearings, ban companies who use them, ad nauseum.
Don't look towards jamming devices, microwaves, et al. We have to get subversive about this kind of privacy-infringing crap.
I've seen many, many posts about people wondering how to disable RFID devices. What I would really like to know is how easy is it to manufacture them? Wouldn't it be equally effective to flood the marketplace, workplace and public places with bogus and distracting RFIDs? Too much information equals no information, that sort of thing?
How are unique ID's not needed for recalls? Model number alone will not specify "all tires manufactured at the Aurora plant on Jan 14, 2003 from 3:00am to 4:50am"
Most tires come with barcodes printed on the side. They last about a month.
The range for the proposed devices seems to be something like two or three feet. I'm sure you could easily test whether a tire is recalled when the car comes in for rotation. It's not like a car has all four tires within a radius of four feet.
Furthermore, unique serial numbers do not need to be random. Stamping a tire with the model number, production run number, plant, assembly unit, date and time of manufacture is simultaneously unique and useful.
Yet we have a cocaine-sniffing, semi-retarded, alcoholic, AWOL president who 'chokes on pretzels' and doesn't have enough brain power left to use words that actually exist.
So there's hope for even the biggest fuck-up! You too can be president!
Please listen to the State of the Union address coming soon. You'll get to hear Our Nation's Crackhead try and bite some of Kennedy's vibe with the, "Put a man on Mars" crap. Why has that become so important all of a sudden? Could it have something to do with his ever-dropping approval rating (52%, down from 85%)
Hmm. Take the minds of the US citizenry off how shitty its gotten.
I've got a better idea. Legalize drugs. Then no one will care what the fuck you do, Super-Prez!
(BTW - I agree with you when I'm not ranting ;)
Summer street, winter street, track. They get switched around, traded with friends, etc...
I couldn't care less if they mark them... not a car in the world under $150,000 comes with decent tires, and I'd run tires that came with the car just long enough to get real tires on there.
I've never had a roomate, of any color. But I have had several roommates.
Please don't destroy the English language.
Not to ignore the significant privacy issues to the commoner, but once these things are in tires, they can be used by criminals to watch for police... or discover if an undercover cop is driving up...
Here's how:
1) Acquire a reader.
2) Go to a location where there's lots of cop or cop-related vehicles (police station parking lot, police academy parking lot, streets right in front of cop shops, favorite cop hangouts, donut shops, etc.) and scan the tires... Capture the IDs.
To allay suspicion - have some 10-12 year old kids play hide-n-seek around the vehicles while they wear goofy looking backpacks... Inside the backpacks are the readers... If the kids are caught it's "ummm...sorry officer... we're just playing hide n seek!"...
3) Install readers in the street around your "compound"...
4) When cars pass over that match the ID's you've captured, trigger a camera, an alert, heavy duty bolts to lock the doors and windows, whatever...
5) If you're doin' a buy on the sly, you can set up a portable reader with a wi-fi link on it to see if the car pulling up is a cop car or not... If it is, take appropriate action...
And for those of you who think that the cops just won't use it - that's OK too... If the consumers are mandated to use it and the cops aren't, then there's information in the lack of information ya know... (gotta love inference controls eh?)
Yep... this is great... hope the feds like it...
then maybe I could find my stolen wheels and tires !
I have blog like everyone else
In a practical sense, yes. You'll notice I used the word "theoretical".
Incorrect. Page 7 of http://www.microchip.com/download/lit/pline/rfid/
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
Save one life? Gimme a break. Is cliche' the new troll tactic to look stupid enough not to appear to be trolling?
And Ford is short for Ford Motor Company. So what? Typing GM would have got the point across, particularly when the poster listed GM, Fiat ... and then said Kia was the winner.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Hmmm... since you really don't care for privacy...
I'm a nice guy. I have a supply of a few hundred clear plastic baggies. If I sent them to you, free of charge, would you use them instead of paper evelopes to send your mail?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
"Information can be updated with a handheld reader."
Who is going to be the first to lay down a strip on a major metro street with some little wires in it that updates everyone's tires as they drive by with stuff like "0wnzored" and "Michelin Sux!"
I can't possibly see them putting this into every tire... It would raise the cost too much making them uncompetitive.
I could *maybe* see them putting this into the highest of high performance tires as security devices.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), with your company or your own name on it. Cross-referenced with your new RFID in your tire, the VID number leads to your location being tracked at anyplace anyone wants to set up a monitor.
Duuuuhhhhhh, you were saying something?
So one guy mentions OCR and everyones jargon meter gets pegged. HELLO! it was in jest. OCR = Optical Character Recognition. Meaning, SOMEONE WHAT CAN READ. duh.
I love how instantly the first reaction is, well there goes my rights, my privacy, my freedom, and oh yeah the sky is falling.
Have you guys even thought once about the benifits? Think about how many people drive around on bald tires, or what about theft? Something with this could maybe help both of those aspects.
Imagine this scenario, contract with Mobile, now every time I get fuel, a sensor can check my tires and my cars mileage and remind me if I should have them checked out, or rotated.
As for theft, well that is easy. Tires can't be on a car that they shouldn't be.
Seriously, with the audience, this site supposidly draws, I would hope that the creativity would be a little higher, then, "whoa, big brother is after my tire usage"
Let the flames begin. =}
And if it becomes illegal to disable the tags? Is it legal to disable your social security number? Drivers license number?
These things are not for your benefit and are not meant to be under your control. Saying they're OK because they can be disabled is an appeal to powers you do not posses.
Every time something bad happen, there is eather a new law or new invention.
Well... Maybe if I had a computer in the car....
Didn't they say the same thing about licence plates when they came out?
It's a slippery slope. Michelin might not want to track tires to cars...but if the capability is there, what's to prevent someone else from doing the same thing? This RFID gizmo is a friggin computer fer heaven sakes. And do you think that kook with the total awareness program isn't thinking of this? Ways to track citiz^H^H^Hpersons of interest...
Seems to me that there are at least two devices that could wreak havoc with any RFID chip. First, a simple bulk magnetic tape eraser. They generate one heck of a 60Hz AC magnetic field that should be strong enough to permanently fry the chip.
;-)
Second option: One of those high-voltage contact stun-guns that you can get from security or cop-supply outfits. Fire that up, pass it all over the tire. The rubber won't be bothered by the arc, since rubber's a darn good insulator, but I'd wager it'd turn the RFID chip into silicon toast.
If product manufacturers get it through their heads that consumers won't put up with this kind of crap, they might just give up.
Any other ideas for chip-zapping, besides a microwave oven? (And I can just see someone trying to stuff a steel-belted radial into a microwave).
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
I worked on RFID technology in the area of security hardning. and there was one weakness that could not be overcome. ALL rfid tags are suceptable to high intensity RF Fields. Because they rely on the RF field to energise them they can be effectivly fried by subjecting them to an intense field.. There are hardened tags that are more resistant but in the end even they are distructable as well as being much more expensive. I suspect tire manufactures are going to buy the cheapest tag possable.. Sounds like a good market for tag disablers
Knowing what tires are on my car is a far cry in comparison to airing my personal information through a plastic baggie. People, please get a clue. Yes, i do care for privacy. I don't want the 8 dollar an hour postman getting my SSN or my banking information through a plastic baggie, that is why I use those security envelopes. However, I could give a shit if a tire company knows that i have their tires on my car.
The thing about slashdotters is that many of you see in black and white. There is no gray. If I accept this chip in my tire, that must mean that I have no regard for privacy whatsoever and that I would be interested in your afformentioned offer of plastic baggies. NEWSFLASH::Well guess what, there is a gray area!::NEWSFLASH I love my privacy. I cherish my privacy. I love the fact that I can go home, get laid, drink a beer, and watch my semi-right-winged evening news (O'Reilly Factor and Hannity and Colmes!!!) without anyone looking, caring, or questioning me. But to get nervous about an itty-bitty microchip in my tire is just ridiculous.
What I am trying to say is this: There are some areas of privacy that I am concerned about such as mail transactions, credit card numbers, my SSN (for credit purposes), my banking information, and how much I get paid at my job. However I don't care about a company or a government having knowlegde of my particular car or the tires that are on it. If i have to worry about that, I must be doing something shady and probably deserve to get caught.
Put down your copy of 1984 for just a minute and come back to the reality that no one cares unless you are doing something illegal.
God damn YRO articles are annoying, they're always full of paranoid geeks that know nothing of the new technology, but insist it is bad for their privacy.
a little less time geekin and you would realize that tire pressure info is a feature on some cars.
Similar to the chips being in some tires.
Drama queens
..I find this whole 'my rights online' and the associated paranoia hilarious.
Pretty much every excuse ever given for not having measures like this introduced into products, relates to not getting caught breaking the law!
Not only that, but it is extreme paranoia.. for example, how do you go from talking about RFID tags in tyres, right up to saying that people will be able to view on the internet whose house you parked at, or which garages you were filling up at? It just wouldn't happen.
But what about the plus sides? Could RFID tags in all of your tyres, if matched to your VIN number (and consequently your name and address) be useful in tracking stolen cars? Considering the apparent breach of 'my rights', I think that is a pretty useful advantage.
As far as I see it, in all of these cases if you dont break the law then you have nothing to lose. I am not saying that I dont break the law (who can honestly say they never have) but never to the point where I have risked going to jail, and never to the extreme that I am worried about getting caught.
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"
24 inches
Look, why cant you just read what the article says. It does not say 'the serial number will be linked to the vehicles VIN', it says 'the serial number *can* be linked to the vehicles VIN'.
:P
When you buy tyres ask the garage not to enter your VIN on the form that i assume will come with the tyres. Failing that, go and buy the tyres, and give fake details when you buy them.
You cant assume just because they could do it, that they will do it.
And anyhow, if you have nothing to hide, then why should you be worried
until they start embedding them in tyres as well.
I don't see what that has to do with someone being able to ID my car from a distance.
It is technically very difficult to talk to an RFID tag which is zooming by on the highway. It would be much easier to use OCR to read license plates, since you can read them from much greater distances.
I have owned several motorbikes and have peppered them all with RFIDs with my own fair hands.
The product is called "DataTag" and consists of a pack of differing sized/shaped chips and glue/tools to fit them.
Most of them were small plastic "asprins" that you could cover in glue and then drop into a hole in the frame, insert into the wheel etc.
My favorite though was a transparent "matchstick" that came with a syringe style applicator to insert into the seat foam, it was totally invisible once fitted.
The hand scanners cost arout £600 5 years ago, and are probably much cheaper now.
It did occur to me at the time how easy it would be to "tag" something or someone else.
As it turned out I was proved right but in a different context. An article in a UK paper had a case of an interesting "practical joke": An employee in a shop "borrowed" an item of a co-workers clothing (possibly jeans) and carefully stitched in security tag in the hem.
Everytime he went in or out of the shop (and many others) all the alarms went off. How aggravationg is that?!?!
especially when KIA is short for Killed In Action
Given that the commercial motivation, I think that it is highly likely that we won't be able to stop the implementation of devices like these.
Our only protection is to be aware where the RD Tags are (i.e. in our tyres) and when we are being scanned by someone/something.
Solution:
An Opensource project to build a handheld scanner, which can also detect when another scanner is operating in our local area.
When enough people are aware that this scanning is taking place there will be a civil uprising....
These tags are a good thing from a production stand point. Ford is required to record which plant a tire came from, when that tire was produced, and which car it's being installed on. Right now, this is a manual process and fairly costly. The embedded tags will make it an automatic process and less prone to errors. The requirement to record this information evolved from the Explorer/Firestone troubles.
The tags will also stop a rather disturbing problem in the rental car business. People sometimes rent a car, exchange the good tires for bad, and return the car to the agency. Without the tags, there's no traceability.
A similar process exists for airbags and ignition keys. These databases are NOT available to anyone including the dealers, so I fail to see how privacy is an issue.
BTW: The tires installed by Ford are of a higher quaility then the same exact tire available after market. They are produced to tighter specifications. Believe it or not.
Where do they say that they register _who_ buys each tyre?
Sure the tyres have a RFID, it's just like a big barcode on them, they can be tracked during manufacture and sale.
When was the last time your VIN was checked when you bought a new set of tyres?
Specialist Mac support for creative pros, Melbourne
Not that I really care either way.
(Disclaimer: I don't know a damn.)
Such barcodes would not be aesthetically pleasing. Also, the tires have the tendency to get dirty, and barcodes are read optically. So, to read the big ugly barcode, you'd need to bring a water hose, but RFIDs can be read through the muck. Also, the RFID tag can be embedded in the material, but the barcode needs to be *painted* on the surface, meaning it can (theoretically) be worn off.
Yes, barcodes might work, but RFIDs would be theoretically more hadly messed and would probably be a little bit more convinient to use.
In a months time, they will track all cars going in and out of central London, and send bills to those who haven't paid the congestion charge. This is a large scale use of video cameras and OCR and databases.
This is very much like somebody waving a wand over your tire and informing you that you should consider changing your tires due to (recall, treadwear, insert reason here) not because the man is tracking your every move. Until technology gets to the point that GPS is tied to RFDs and is downloaded to a master computer big enough to track the millions upon millions of movements every day. This is not a big deal.
I worry more about my local supermarket tracking my purchases via my discount card than this issue.
My 2 cents.
I'd just like to point out that, my own posting included, the total number of words wasted through using the name Ford in order to save keystrokes is 179 (see whole thread).
Thanks for your attention.
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
According to the article, pressure monitoring is actually one of the functions of this thing. As for the Big Brother aspect, I am willing to bet that your typical neighborhood tire shop owner will have no problem with accidentally overlooking the data update when changing your tires.
Will go live in February... The signs and cameras are up already.
o n/ congestion.html
http://www.cclondon.com/
and some of the resistance which is beginning.
http://www.btinternet.com/~robert.hinkley/opini
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
http://www.geocities.com/congestioncharge/freel
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Yeah, but then readers would be required nation-wide which is costly to say the least. The resaon 'automated roads' have been back-burnered is the astronomical expense of implementing it in any large scale.
Well go to traffic.com and you can see up to the minute traffic info for most of the US metro areas. They have installed sensors every 1/4 to 2 miles in damn near all freeways and a number of streets. Just 1000 feet away from me right now is one of those things in the street to trigger the new traffic signal "for better traffic flow" and monitoring by the city. It would take very little to add 1 more sensor for RFID data to be passed back over the same system...
Funny or not, but the worst thing that gathering data from these devices, unlike from numberplates, can be trivially automated.
Police checkpoints that may glance on your numberplate is one thing, but tight country-wide network of sensors on earch crossroad makes a perfect Big Brother.
Lisp is the Tengwar of programming languages.
...don't forget that cars are usually made of metal. It should be specially dificult to read an RFID passive tag that's rounded by all that metallic stuff because the most power of the antena will be lost before it could feed the RFID device.
This is simply an alarmist issue from/for those whose has very limited knowledgement about RFID.
Excuse my poor english.
AND, no doubt, led to the resignation of some of the company's best talent (perhaps including yourself).
I went off to University, thankfully! Most of the people working here came thrugh a training scheme run by the company owner. He was being given money by the government to train these people (all 16-17 year olds) and then he was given a subsidy to employ them! No wonder the only programming language used was Visual Basic.
The company was called Barr IT Services, run and owned by a very shrewd local businessman called Pete Barr. He sold the business to a crowd based in Belfast called Sx3 just before the dot.com bust for a significant sum (they had branched out in to web development previously). The new owners have a great reputation and aparently since being assimilated in to Sx3 the company has become a much fancied place to work in.
Pete Barr still runs lots of local businesses here in Derry, he has a horrendous reputaion locally. There is little that could be done to hurt him. As if you would want to, he spent several years in prison in the 70's for directing terrorism, he's a real tough nut.
"I must be doing something shady and probably deserve to get caught"
Well, that is the point. You might be chased and hunted down one day, say for 'simple' matters such as downloading a copyrighted MP3. The fact that these things are on tires, means that soon, I WON'T BE ABLE TO GO ANYWHERE WITHOUT PEOPLE KNOWING WHERE I AM.
Several issues are ignored here...
1.) Its illegal to distribute personal information (I'm fairly certain) without your consent, so michelin will not be giving out these RFIDS
2.) Even if its not illegal to distribute it certainaly is unethical and will/can killl a business... odds are they wouldn't attempt it
3.) Many everyday things already have RFID placed in them, such as car keys and some credit cards etc.
4.) RFID must be scanned from within a few feet (on a good day), simply driving down the road they cannot be scanned in a reasonable manner. Not to mention that a 'good' scanner will not read at rates above 50 mph or so.
5.) RFID will make it far easier and cheaper to track a tire from assembly line to junk yard, it will help the company improve its product acheive better efficiency.
Its rediculis to think that your losing rights here... it takes ignorance to believe that.
I wonder if it will hamper my traction?
Ed Wedig
Graphic design services
docbrown.net
How long will it be before the car authenticates the chip in the tire so you can only use authorized brands of tires? If a third party makes a compatible tire, the car manufacturer can sue them for "hacking into our Tire Management System"....
Sheesh, if the Air Force can use microwaves to fry computers, why can we? Pick up a 5Ghz or better microwave radio link, and point it at your tires for a few. Ever put metal in the microwave?
"Most recalls are silent"
For safety recalls, the owner gets letters. They send the letter repeatedly if you don't respond.
Performance recalls get tech service bulletins posted for the shop mechanics. That's a completely different deal.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
If you don't do anything wrong, why worry about illegal searches? Why seal envelopes when you mail them? Why EVER use PGP? Why encrypt, period? What are you trying to hide criminal?
Never EVER use any iteration of the phrase, "If you don't do anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about." That is the road to zero civil liberties. That is the road to Police State.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
I'm guessing that the intent of the tags is not to invade your privacy, but to just make it simpler for the car companies and their suppliers to collect data about things like tire wear (did the tires last as long as they should), theft (were these tires reported stolen from another vehicle), and warranty abuse (was this tire returned after it was in an accident). Doesn't sound like an invasion of privacy for its own sake, rather, data collection for determining quality and cost cutting opportunities.
I've got more than enough to think about already in the area of privacy concerns (identity theft, etc.). I'm not worried about RF tags in my tires.
science is a religion
Well from now on I'll use Michelin tires for burn out compo on car show. They even can make a new compo. Burn your tires without frying the chip.
try insurance benefit. I see this as no different than VIN #'s etched in the window glass.
What would be cool is if your driveway could have a sensor in it that reads the RFID on your tire and automatically open the garage door for you. No more worrying who has the remote.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
1. What is the range of these RFIDs? In my experience, they tend to be maybe 50 yards max.
2. You VIN is written on your dashboard such that it can be easily read from the outside through the windshield.
This would certainly make stealing tires or selling tires second hand a bit more difficult though.
VOS/Interreality project: www.interreality.org
I bet you never noticed that though... you have to roll them down pretty far.
Sure they can--three methods already in use:
1) liscense plate + video camera + OCR software
2) toll transponder tag
3) cell phone (not as geographically accurate for now, but E-911 is changing this, give them time...)
and, as an added bonus for the tinfoil hat crowd, in Massachusetts there have been issues with bars scanning the mag strip on drivers liscenses...
> The tire maker has begun testing a UHF
> transponder that it adapted for use inside
> rubber sidewalls.
Damn. That explains why my TV's been changing channels by itself every time a car goes by...
Well, at least we have some good information coming out of this forum. Having lived a sheltered life, I always figured that tires and tyres were the same thing and somebody was just using king's english to be funny. It would now appear that there are significant differences in that most new tires in the U.S. come with a 40,000 to 60,000 mile warranty whereas tyres are only good for 15,000 miles. Could you just imagine the problems we would be encountering if we had tyre dumps fill of these chips instead of tire dumps full? Some poor cop driving by could concieveably suffer serious information overload. Another good point - with the problems they've been having would Firestone want to install these. Imagine the problems if people had tire ID readers and wouldn't car pool with a Firestone equipped car or Johnny's mom wouldn't let him ride to little league..... With tyres we could conceiveably be on the hook for larger potential fines. If they ever get to be considered hazardous waste the guy who took that $3.00 disposal fee when you got new tyres just dumped them instead of registering them into the national tyre disposal database and using a federally approved tyre disposal site. You now have 4 times the potential fine. Finally, I'd need two sets of tyres a year on that gas guzzling SUV I drive and it would be like "change the tyres and see if it needs gas" No, better they stick to putting chips in tires and leave the tyre issue alone. Can you imagine the stigma at the country club if you showed up in your #50,000 SUV and had a cheap set of Peerless tyres show up on a scanner instead of a $1100 set of Michelins. And they say we Americans just stick our heads in the sand (or somewhere else) and look for oil.
Oh yeah, and the only tires I've ever had "go off" were on a tire changer. I can't speak for what happens with tyres.
Interesting how this article now appears on the same page as a story about a military EMP weapon which destroys electronics with microwave pulses. I predict a rise in business specializing in the "sanitization" of items which have embedded RF tx devices.
> However, I could give a shit if a tire company knows that i have their tires on my car.
Neither could I, but the technology to read these tags isn't only something the tire manufacturers have access to, is it?
So, let's see how I could get that precious SSN, credit card numbers, and other goodies from your tire ID:
I set up a covert tire reading station beside the road. I make it look like one of those cable boxes you see at the end of many people's properties. I get your tire ID.
Now, of course, (insert gas company here) has your tire ID for easier billing. I get on the phone with an agent who is less than awake, and con him into giving me your info (phone number, street address, name, DOB). If you don't think that's possible, ask Kevin Mitnick.
Now I have enough to ask for a history of your car, for crashes and liens. I just tell them I'm interested in buying it. No problem. On there, I get your VIN tag and license plate number. Now, with all that official info, all I need is someone a little crooked at the DMV, and bingo! I've got an SSN and License. From there I can get anything I want about you, credit reports, credit card numbers, heck, I bet I could get the deeds to your house screwed up if I was nasty enough!
Sure, I could have walked up to your car and written the plate number and VIN down, but it wouldn't take long for my suspicious activity to be reported, whereas a tire ID tag reader will never be noticed, and even if it was, I doubt there'd be complaints.
Hope that helps explain it to you.
>Put down your copy of 1984 for just a minute and come back to the reality that no one cares unless you are doing something illegal.
Let me bring you back to reality. It ain't just the government you need to worry about. But I suppose you'll consider that a load of bunk. Well, go ahead. It's your life. Live it as you will.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Further to the posts about many cars having tyre pressure monitors, I read an article about a year ago about BMW testing out tyre /traction/ sensors. The RF sensors in the tyre walls detected the tyre deformation. These worked along with the ABS wheel speed sensors so that the ABS could predict /when/ a wheel was going to lose traction (in existing ABS systems this is just a function of wheel speed and pedal pressure... which doesn't compensate for road condition).
I've tried to find this, but haven't come up with anything. It was probably a print article.
A friend of mine has a grocery store card and a credit card, incidentally, in the name of his SCA persona. Scary thing is...Lord So-and-So has better credit than he does -- and more grocery store points -- and he never gets telemarketing calls... (Name changed to protect the devious, of course.) Now how does one take that lesson and apply it to tires?
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
For all those guys who are going to doubt that license plate readers are feasible: in Bavaria, employing automatic scanners at the czech-german border is currently being discussed. ( http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,224854,0 0.html if you speak german). Employing the scanners for traffic and speed control is also planned.
Michelin Tyre pressure monitors are already mounted on Renault cars. (Renault cars are sold everywhere in the world expect USA) see : http://www.renault.com/gb/produits/laguna2.htm
First of all remember a RFID tag is useless without a reader. No reader in range, no ID. Second, the scan range is somewhat limited. It's going to be difficult to scan the tags from anywhere other than inside the vehicle when it's moving.
This has some advantages for the consumer beyond the inventory and supply chain management improvements for Michelin.
For one it will be easier to spot counterfit Michelin tires. Before you scoff be aware this is a big problem for Michelin and some other high end tire makers. It is not uncommon to buy a brand name tire and get a phony tire made overseas or a re-tread sold as new.
Another application would be to embed multiple tags to indicate tire wear. When certain tags wear away you will know the tire needs to be replaced.
Imaging the RFID tags were combined with pressure and temprature gauges. This would allow you to know this from inside the car while it was moving.
I doubt the "Man" is going to go around installing RFID readers everywhere just because one tire maker with a small slice of the market starts putting tags in their tires. Besides all you get when you get when you read a RFID tag is a number. A unique number to be sure, but without a lookup to the various supply chain databases a fairly meaningless number.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
How is a tire shop going to check the serial number of a single tire, when every tire in range answers?
Easy, make the range only a few inches.
You have a license plate on your car, and there's an etched VIN on your dashboard. You register both numbers in the local motor vehicle database. I don't understand how you would use these RFID tags for anything but recall or warranty information. They certainly aren't a privacy issue, because you won't have your name or any identification associated with the ID in any database, especially if you happen to install the tires yourself.
IT IS REAL - EVERYTHING HE POSTED WAS REAL - damnit, mod this up, as informative!
I can't believe how many people here are saying "what is the big deal", "this won't affect you", and "think of how this could help the children (eh, words to that effect)" - WE KNOW THIS WON'T BE THE CASE, THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY WILL BE USED *AGAINST* THE CITIZENS!!!
How loud must I say it? How many times must this be repeated? How much more will people take? Why do you (for some reason) enjoy being ass-raped by corporate and governmental PIGS? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING?
I am so SICK of hearing about this abuse, and that abuse, and corporate scandals - yet not seeing any action, not seeing any resolution - when we all know if any one of *US* pulled the same shit at our job or in our personal lives, the shaft would be so long and go so deep we would speared and sliding FOREVER - yet we nary give pause, and in some case, hearty slaps on the backs - to those who hold positions of power and prestige.
Sometimes I pray for one good sized asteroid to hit, just to stop the insanity we have come to live with every day...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
I recently bought a coat, and stuck on the zipper was a clip w. an rdif tag embedded. The clip had "please remove this tag before wearing the article". Why? Because there's no reliable way to kill some types of rdif tags and make sure they STAY dead. They are simple, el cheapo passive devices with no moving parts. Much harder to kill than, say, your monitor.
Don't worry because.. soon every spare component in your car from windshield to brake pedal will come with embedded RFID tags which cost only a few cents each.
If you look closely on your tires, they're likely already stamped with a unique ID. I bought some last year that had an ID the clerk at the store had to record, ostensibly for recall purposes.
If not all cars, most cars have the VIN displayed in a sticker at the very front of the dash, next to the A-pillar. You can read it through the windshield. Many also have a barcode of it there.
Want to steal a car easily? Go peek in the front window, get the VIN number, and find a minimum-wage kid in a dealer parts department and give him fifty bucks to cut you a key for it. There's only 20-30 keys for a given car model -- they may have one in stock anyway, and they know which key you have based on your VIN number.
VIN numbers are totally public info.
That will quite simply lead to abuses, and yes you can probably learn a lot of what you want from these data cds
But an active RF technology would mean a bug in every car.
Maybe the idea of an adboard on a freeway is insane
What we need to do it think about how this technology will affect us in the future, especialy given the current corporate big idea of synergising databases, and decide how we are going to deal with it.
These data lists on CDs might tell you that I subscribe to Private Eye magazine and you could imagine that I might like to buy your satirical magazine also and ring me to tell me so, but they dont tell you that I spent 30 minutes last week reading lastminute.com looking for a flight to new york or that I browsed bushmaster arms website and two months ago downloaded a copy of the anarchists cookbook. Taken altogether it could paint a picture of somone with some nasty ideas, and could possibly save some lives, it could also lead to me recieving emails or phone calls from 7 different flight booking agencies each trying to undercut the other, and insurance sales guys, then when I finaly get to New York, and the RF transmitter in my shoes allows the police to remotely monitor me, and guide agents to give me a special full body cavity check, a thief acting on information his cracker friend got from breaking into the police databank robs my house.
Thanks by the way for the backhanded compliment, its nice to see that you at least found it creative in some way :)
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69
Maybe this is what those $150.00 directed energy devices are good for.
come now, I want to put a amplifer on every intersection on the way to my work, so I can tell when that officer is heading to his favorite speed trap.
I always wanted a easy way to identify a officer with his radio and radar gun off.
Cheap RFID tags
I had no idea they were so cheap. I did some research and found the above link.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Seems to me this would work just like a
cookie. All it would take is one cross
reference to tie you to the tire, either
the initial purchase, a visit to ATM
or whatever.
Bear in mind that federal law makes driver's
license information available to toll collectors,
law enforcement and "security" businesses.
This IDs you and tracks you better than a cell
phone. I'd worry about the government of
course, but first to take advantage of this
will be the clickshare equivalents embedding
scanners in every drive through. But they
wouldn't sell or use this information.
Of course, if you have nothing to hide,
then who needs privacy.
Anyway, how hard would it be to remove the device?
HI, MY NAME IS ISAAC.