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Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel
Reality Master 101 writes "Saw an interesting post on the Experimental Rocket Propulsion Society BBS from John Carmack, who is working on an X-prize vehicle. Apparently he is having a lot of trouble getting Peroxide from the major suppliers, and is possibly thinking of helping someone set up a company to produce peroxide. With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry. But how can it happen when the suppliers won't even sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams? Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"
Sorry for the ignorance. What kind of peroxide is necessary for something like this?
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
I'm guessing getting all the hair salons to chip in a gallon or two won't help here will it. Worth a shot I guess.
I wonder how much that has to do with the material possibly being labled as bomb making material. I could be way off base. Anyone in the industry want to enlighten us?
I've got a bottle at home he can have if he's looking to start taking donations. =)
Perhaps there are justified reasons not to let the general public have "peroxide". (H2O2?)
Beep. Boop. Beep. You have questions. I have answers and your home address.
Lets talk about Jon Carmack. Jon is the legendary programmer of such classic PC games as Wolfenstein, Doom, Duke nukem 3d, Quake 1, 2, and 3, unreal, and the upcoming doom3. Jon has single handedly created the genre known as the first-person-shooter. He has also popularized the Direct3d 3d format over Microsoft's competing Opengl format, as well as caused public interest in 3d cards when he first released accelerated quake for the s3 virge chipset. Jon carmack has redefined gaming on PC's.
Now stop for a moment and think, What would have happened if Albert Einstein had worked creating amazing pinball games instead of creating the theory of relativity? Humanity would suffer! Jon carmack is unfortunately doing JUST THIS, using his gifts at computer coding to create games instead of furthering the knowledge of humanity. Carmack could have been working for NASA or the US military, but instead he simply sits around coding violent computer games.
Is this a waste of a special and rare talent? Sadly, the answer is yes.
Unfortunately, it doesn't stop there. Not only is Jon carmack not contributing to society, he is causing it's downfall. What was the main reason for the mass murder of dozens of people in columbine? Doom. It's always the same story: Troubled youth plays doom or quake, he arms himself to the teeth, he kills his classmates. This has happened hundreds of times in the US alone. Carmack is not only wasting his talents and intelligence; he is single-handedly causing the deaths of many young men and women. How does he sleep at night?
Carmack is a classic example of a very talented and intelligent human being that is bent on total world destruction. Incredibly, he has made millions of dollars getting people hooked on psychotic games where they compete on the internet to see who can dismember the most people. I believe there is something morally wrong when millions of people have computerized murder fantasies, and we have Jon Carmack to thank. Carmack has used his superior intellect to create mayhem in society. Many people play games such as quake so much that their minds are permanently warped. A cousin of mine has been in therapy for 6 months after he lost a 'death match' and became catatonic.
It is unfortunate that most people do not realize how much this man has damaged all the things we have worked hard for in America. Jon has wasted his intelligence, caused the deaths of innocent children, and warped this country forever. To top it off, he got rich in the process and is revered by millions of computer users worldwide. Perhaps one day the US government will see the light and confine Jon Carmack somewhere with no computers so he can no longer use his intelligence to wreak havoc on society.
Well, John's got money, perhaps he should talk to their board members and CEO. As much as I hate to say it, sometimes you gotta bribe to get stuff done.
Offer to make a donation, or figure out how to become a registered peroxide buyer(?)
Then again, there might always be other forces working against him. but I'm too tired to go into conspiracy theories:)
Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I can do the job! Just watch!
Me: Scientist bob, we need 40 barrels of the stuff by June so Carmack can launch!
Scientist bob: Uhh sir our plants total capacity is only 1 barrell a month!
Me: You fscking Idiot I didn't ask you what our capacity was! I gave you an order!
See you can tell, i'm leaps and bounds better than any other slashdotter here! Pick me Pick me John! Look i'll even put caps on your name!
but peroxide only refers to a cat-ion of oxygen with an oxidation of -1 instead of the normal -2. If you just produced peroxide it would be very unstable as it would try to combine with an an-ion immediately. Is Carmack perhaps looking for a specific peroxide compound (i.e hydrogen peroxide or nitrogen peroxide) or just any compound that has oxygen with -1 oxidation numbers?
Date: Tue Feb 4 22:02:01 2003
List-archive: http://lists.erps.org/archives/erps-list/
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
What? Do you want California to suddenly go brunette? Think of the repercussions!
1) With the tragic destruction of the Columbia the other day, I fear that NASA will be even further from the America's popular eye, and so if technological development slows down on NASA's end, the X-Prize will become even more crucial to keep flight progess moving in a forward direction.
2) The idea of distributed computing and processing has been around for a while now, but has anyone ever thought about taking that idea and applying it to physical goods? The possibilities are endless, especially if we ever see "food replicator"-like machines, or even computer-driven tools in the home.
Frankly it is. In fact, if you read up on what killed the Kursk, they say it was indeed an innocuous little substance that looks like water- Peroxide. The stuff reacts with practically every metal to form Oxygen (great for burning fuel). If it can form a high enough pressure to rupture sealed torpedo housings and create a fire hot enough to detonate every single torpedo on a submarine, it can do a bit of damage while being transported.
And no, I'm not being melodramatic. To be useful it needs to be 100%... but you typically won't find it available over 35%. It's a great oxidizer- add a little to your next charcoal fire and enjoy the fumes! (ok, you'd need a catalyst like Manganese Dioxide to do it, but still...).
Manufacture it onsite and hope you don't have an accident with your 100 gallon teflon vessels.... and please do it somewhere away from where I live.
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
They're dying to invest and create industries that aren't commercial avaitation related.
They would love to have other sources of cash to fall back on in case their commercial airplane division bottoms out again (which is about every 10-15 years).
Dolemite
Save the World! Use a Quote!
This isn't just some 'general public'. It's someone who has made a -very public- investment into a legitimate use of such materials, and who stands to be governed by more than sufficient safety precautions in these circumstances.
What this is, is a market opportunity. H2O2 rocketry is *worth* the investment.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I think you're being a bit overly dramatic about this.
Yes, it's a hazardous material.
Industry works with hazardous materials day in and day out.
From reading the thread, one of the annoyances John is working within is that they only sell by the RAIL CAR. Sounds to me like this stuff gets used in volume, regularly, and is shipped normally.
Also, when you say "you won't find it available over 35%" - do you mean for consumer purchase, or for industrial purchase? You can get nasty, extremely powerful chemicals at very strong concentrations - so long as you buy in industrial size bulk lots.
25 bucks and a bottle of peroxide!
Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!
This is the same stuff you can buy at the local drugstore in 3% dilute solution to disinfect wounds, bleach hair, etc. At very high concentration (I think for rockets they use 90+%), they can use a catalyst to initiate a very rapid exothermic decomposition of the H202 to H20 (as steam) and O2. This provides thrust, without need of a 2-part fuel/oxidizer combo.
I know of at least 2 outfits starting out with hydrogen peroxide rockets - Armadillo Aerospace (Carmack's outfit) and the infamous Rocket Guy (the toy inventor turned spaceman.)
Research into hydrogen peroxide rockets was done in during WWII, and actually made it into some experimental applications, I believe...
This is what happens when you sign the chit 'Abdul Al Carmack'...
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
We all gots problems.
Carmack should just tell the companies he has one giant skinned knee. That'll get him all the peroxide he needs.
No, you said, it's just a game - exposure to this sort of thing won't inspire people to build rocket launchers in real life.
Just you wait for the railguns and plasma weapons. Then you'll be sorry.
Or to be even more cynical, it violates something I consider to be one of Life's Universal Rules, which is this: You should never threaten to cost someone more money than it would cost them to have you killed.
For instance, suppose there's a market need for 20 commercial/military/ISS flights per year, and the government's willing to pay $500M per launch. That's $500M x 20 = $10B a year in pork to use the shuttle and our current unmanned vehicle capabilities. Against that, nobody is gonna build cheap launch capability, because it'll soon be a better business strategy to simply eliminate anyone who comes close.
For instance, suppose Armadillo Aerospace develops tech that enables them to launch a satellite for $1M. With reduced costs, there might be a market for 100 launches a year versus 20. NASA space scientists are elated, because they can finally send an army of cheap probes to every planet, comet, and moon that tickles their fancy. And geeks (myself included!) will rejoice because we can finally read about all the cool science while we're vacationing at the Space Hilton.
The big problem with this lovely picture is that as soon as Armadillo announces its $1M-to-orbit vehicle, $BIG_CONTRACTOR realizes that even if they buy Armadillo outright, the $10B/year gravy train (20 comm/spy satellites at $500M each) is gonna come up $9.9B short (20 comm/spysats, plus 80 space probes and Space Hilton modules, at $1M per launch). Someone will realize that you can hire a lot of assassins and saboteurs for $9.9B.
Congressmen, upon realizing that Armadillo's success will soon mean $9.9B less pork to distribute to their districts, will conclude that a major campaign contributor has discovered an "intriguing" solution to both their respective problems.
Both groups will publicly lament the "accident" at Armadillo that resulted in the flash-combustion of all personnel, and bemoan their sysadmins for the fact that all the offsite backup tapes containing design and technical data were unreadable, and use the "accident" to remind the voting and taxpaying public that space still isn't quite ready for private sector involvement.
I wish Carmack and anyone else trying to provide cheap access to space the best of luck, but I fear for anyone who comes close to achieving the dream.
Vote Quimby.
I'd hate to be whoever has to clean up the gibs... :P
"Blondes...... In...... Spaaaaaaaaaace!"
That's ills and idiotic man... ;)
Is he trying to launch a rocket or or blonde? Does he think he has to look like Lance Bass to get into space?
I would assume it is hydrogen peroxide(H2O2) because rocket fuel is made up of liquid hydrogen (H) and liquid oxygen (O). Burning them together is gread, and can produce water.
Someone put Carmack in touch with Ryan Seacrest, host of American Idol. He seems to have plenty of peroxide to donate.
I'm guessing getting all the hair salons to chip in a gallon or two won't help here will it. Worth a shot I guess. (:
If NASA can't launch a shuttle safely, why should we as citizens be attempting it?
I bet a big part is litigation. If this craft blows up (this happens on occasion with spacecraft), relatives are too likely to sue any and all suppliers of equipment and materials that went into it. (I'd check the article to see if this is mentioned, but the thing is already /.ed)
"The stuff reacts with practically every metal to form Oxygen (great for burning fuel)." So would that mean that you'd have to have this stuff only come into contact with say...plastic tubing instead of metal pipe? How durable would something like this be?
Isn't John already a blonde?
I wear pants.
Wouldn't a bunch of journalists needing and wanting fame and fortune trump up a bunch of charges against such an adventure? Whats the safety aspects involved in peroxide manufacture?
StarTux
Funny - my buddy's dad is being forced to retire from a 30-year career because the peroxide plant he works for in West Virginia is closing. They claimed "oversupply", obsolete equipment and processes, and bad market conditions.
Hunh.
I love vegetarians - some of my favorite foods are vegetarians.
How much peroxide would $100k get you? That's a lot of money, and I'd expect a smaller company that just starts so as to make and sell peroxide would be able to either produce a lot more or a lot less peroxide for the same dollar.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
Carmack needs to look into the latest technology for rockets, candle wax: purified (oilless) paraffin, with some additives. He could then get either gaseous or liquid oxygen from just about any welding supply house.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
"Hi My name is John Carmack and I'd.....yes the same guy that worked on doom and quake.......yeah I'd like to order several thousand gallons of....yes those games are violent, lots of blowing stuff up.....anyhow I'd like to order several thousand gallons of highly explosive and caustic peroxide in order to...Hello? Hello? damn."
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Dude, hydrogen peroxide is like 79 cents at the drug store on my street.
The best stuff they make is their "Technical Grade" which is only 50%. Not good enough.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
"If we examine the realities of rocket science, we come across a rather unusual and interesting fact. While some might disagree with me, the shape of a rocket was specifically designed to resemble the human male sexual organ - the penis. Morover, it, no doubt, has a homosexual tilt to it. Therefore we might conclude that rocket science, like linux, *bsd and other silly silly things, is gay."
Unbeknownst to many people, including YOUR ignorant ass, is that the first missiles and rockets WERE shaped like the female human vagina. After many aerodynamic tests, the shape was molded back to the shape we have today, which is actually the remaining clitoris.
Therefore, if you have a problem with the shape of rockets, YOU, my friend, have unconscious issues with females, and ergo, you are the homosexual.
The problem with anything like this is that you will immediately have the damn BATF, FBI goons breathing down your neck. 90% pure hydrogen peroxide is a oxidizer, it could be used for bad things (bombs) or hybrid rocket research by private citizens. The problem is that the gubment will target you as a hostile terrorist first. I wanted to do private rocket research on using thermite as a hybrid rocket propellant. This would require the purchase of aluminum powder, guaranteed visit by the BATF. I found that it just was not worth the possible hassle.
Got Code?
Carmack, noted chemist that he is, just wants to start up a company to make peroxide. Where's he going to put the factory? Most towns don't want it, and even then it'll take a while to build. How's he going to get the permits? The EPA, not to mention whatever local authorities exist, won't be too happy about you just setting up a heavy chemical shop. Setting up a major chemical supply business is a major undertaking. This isn't the sort of thing richboys can do on a whim. Even his offer to do a guaranteed $100,000 a year isn't going to cover the startup costs. Sorry, guy, try again.
Hydrogen peroxide is available from any common drug store. Why would the suppliers have a problem selling it to these guys?
Even if they cant get it directly from the suppliers, surely it's available in bulk through retail channels?
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
I am not a rocket scientist
;-)
Hey, but we ARE talking rocket science here
Acutally one of the real issues here is that rocket fuel needs to be low explosive (i.e. an oxidizer and a fuel, rather than a high explosive where these are integrated into the same molecule). So there is not a whole lot of difference between what you might buy if you wanted to make a rocket and if you wanted to make a very large, low explosive bomb (think fertilizer/oil, gunpowder, etc).
My suggestion is go liquid fuel-- you can get liquid oxygen without too much hassle (needed for everything from medical to welding) and the fuel could consist of anything from kerosene to acetylene.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
Or, he could lobby Saddam to give him some. Instead of producing nerve gas, they can make peroxide!
You do realize I'm kidding right? Right moderators? Have mercy...
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
If they'd just use Methane, I'd be set... ;)
:)
Seriously, though, have they tried the hair salons? Seems to be plethora of blondes that I distinctly recall being brunettes last year running around...
Yeah yeah.
Har har.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
I'm sure she's got enough lying around to handle any independant's needs.
In fact, her consumption may be the reason supplier's are loath to part with what they've got. You wouldn't want to stiff your best customer just becasue someone wanted to waste this stuff as rocket fuel, now would you?
KFG
I just have one word for you: peroxides
See charts for twitter trends on Trendistic
Hydrogen Peroxide at a ~90%95% concentration was the key component for the X-15 rocket plane that was used to develop a large portion of the hypersonic flight and planetary reentry data for the first steps of the space program. The X-15 achieved mach 6.7 and 354.200ft altitude. With The theoretical 'edge of space' set at 62 miles (327360 ft), Peroxide should work. (Quite a bit about the X-15 can be read at this NASA SITE http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Newsroom/FactSheets/FS-05 2-DFRC.html ) Other versions of the x-15 used Oxygen and ammonia. Maybe they could be fuel alternatives.
If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
I wish I made Slashdot every time I had an engineering problem. Now granted I'm not plunking down $100k every day on raw ingredients, but still... If you were Carmack, wouldn't it be a little expected and wouldn't you think it's a little over-the-top that random posts about very very specific things make slashdot (eg. concentrator machines).
From what I understand about hydrogen peroxide, (my chemistry is rusty) it's not possible to have a 100% solution of it; the oxygen radical is too reactive. But it's still some really strong shit, in any case.
See "pond scum" here.
Why can't we get a microbe to produce H2O2 as a metabolic byproduct. I have always felt that biological metabolism and bioremediation are two of the largest untapped resources on planet.
If you're starting a peroxide business, make sure it's unionized from the beginning. We don't want that bubbly, fizzy mess that comes when peroxide touches scabs.
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
We know why he really wants all this peroxide: he's tired of his rep as a programming genius and has decided to spend the rest of his life as a dumb blonde.
The suppliers may not want the possible legal liability of selling such a dangerous material to non-industrial customers. Many chemical supply companies refuse to sell anything to private citizens for this reason.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
As I recall, Rocket Guy is planing to make his own. Maybe he could tighten John up a bit.
"Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"
Might as well be translated as:
"Does anyone want to start a business that will have its customer database searched routinely under the Patriot Act?"
-- "The reward of suffering is experience." - Aeschylus
Slashdot posts are in reruns again... when does the new season start? :)
-UF
Perhaps Carmack has a bigger problem: Pimples.
I'll be at radio76.com if you need me.
I wasn't aware that peroxide was a controlled substance...
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security
Out of curiousity, has Carmack created a working rocket or achieved flight at least? Because some companies are already off the terra firma... http://xcor.com/
I used to read the ERPS-list in the mid-90's - they had resorted to distilling their own h2o2 (taking commercial h2o2 93% up to >97% purity, as I recall), after dealing with several problems in which additives made it hard to distill.
:)
They ran the still in a trailer on the rocket ranch, and a pressure release valve failed. The resulting explosion left a sizeable hole in the trailer, and drew some attention from inquisitive government officials.
So, John, the moral of the story is to make sure your still is in proper operating condition before using it in your home.
--Just the place for a snark!
Well duh..has anybody called any hair salons??? (yes, I am joking ;)
I believe the Rocket Guy (http://www.rocketguy.com) is producing his own peroxide for his rocket. Might he be willing to double the output for some cash?
A little off topic, but peroxide seems like it is a clean fuel, whats stopping car makers from using this instead of gasoline to power cars?
Excuse the confusion, is peroxide a restricted material in USA now, much as some types of knowledge is already?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Lab grade qualities of each. Had a nasty tendency to dissolve the pilot if the fuel bladder ruptured.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Because the suppliers won't just sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams, who may be a cover for a terrorist organization.
Lars T.
To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck
Hell, he can have all my mouthwash, if he wants. I'll check at Wally World to see how much, but IIRC it's only 40 cents a bottle. Pssh. n00b.
-theGreater moron.
I mean hell, I haven't almost been killed by my faulty stove in over a week, let me start brewing up highly reactive rocket fuel in my sink now.
A man's reach must exceed his grasp, or what's an erection for?
In the New World Order ordinary citizens will not be allowed to have the capability to build rockets unless they are part of the state-approved aeronautics industry. The Homeland Security issues alone will cause most personal heavy rocket experimentation to cease.
There are the liability issues as well if any chemical company ever sells stocks innocently to any terrorists. In a risk-adverse environment, most companies will not take that risk.
Besides, you've seen those Carmack games. They are violent! He creates violence in our children! We must protect our children!!!
________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
First he gets all fussy over Slashdot's reporting of the leak of beta of Doom III, then he wants us to give him rocket fuel???
Oh wait...
~~~
Click here, you know you wanna!
[ERPS] Peroxide production
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* Date: Tue Feb 4 22:02:01 2003
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We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
o/~ Join us now and share the software
Site was mostly hosed when I tried to visit. Telnet got this for me:
-
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be inter ested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Gee whiz John, you've designed thousands of rocket launchers in Quake and Doom, why not use the power of these devices to get you into space.
:)
Duh!
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
started a peroxide company, do you really think you would be able to ignore the regulations these companies work under?
I doubt they don't want to sell. It's probably they need to abide by some regulation that is preventing them from selling.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
...I am traveling backwards and forwards in time, or Slashdot is messed up. If it's that first one, I wish I'd paid more attention in history class, or at least could remember my phone # back in Wisconsin so I could call myself to unload that RedHat stock back when it was above $100....
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I wouldn't put it past Carmack to construct a huge bomb. Everyone knows about his disturbing obsession with the occult (why else would he have made the Doom series like it is?) and his propensity for watching violence, so it's not at all outside the realm of possibility. There are many studies available that prove beyond a doubt that casual use of ultra-violent video games provokes violent behavior in children and adults alike.
Just imagine, if you will, what a person who is exposed to these influences for 12 hours or more per day, and becoming intimately familiar with them, is going to become. Exploring space? Ha! Not likely. But, with large amounts of peroxide that he is trying to procure, he could build a pretty damn deadly explosive device. And who better to do it than the guy who invented exit wounds and exploding body parts in PC gaming? I think the Department of Homeland Security should keep a very close eye on Mr. Carmack - Timothy McVeigh was able to do more with less, and he wasn't nearly as well funded.
--sdem
I'm thinking about starting up a Hydrogen Peroxide business. Forget the moon, I just need a date.
I think the ERPS webpage is about to gag and die. Please excuse the Karma whoring, Carmack's post follows below:
* Subject: [ERPS] Peroxide production
* From: John Carmack
* Date: Tue Feb 4 22:02:01 2003
* List-id: ERPS discussion list
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems. I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Overrated Moderation: This posts sucks... because.
a working business model
1. oxidate some alkylhydroanthraquinones and electrolysis of some ammonium bisulfate.
OR
create a reaction of that store of barium peroxide in your backyard along with some sulfuric acid and prepare (with acetone) by oxidation of isopropanol.
2. sell to Carmack
3. Profit!!!
I ate my sig.
The good stuff, rocket grade H2O2, can dissolve a human. Happened enough in WWII (ME-163 Komet pilots) to know it wasn't a fluke.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Purdue University is doing lots of work with Peroxide based rockets. Armadillo should contact the Aero /Astro dept. there to get some tips on how to aquire the stuff. Just call the number on their web page.
I think they couldn't get stuff above 80% because of transportation concerns... I believe that they were able to distill the 80% stuff up to higher concentrations. They've also developed catalysts that can be mixed with the peroxide as a colloid to get better performance.
Purdue has just rehabilitated an Apollo-era test facility to do some engine tests. When they get up to full swing, they'll probably have the best facility at a University. Armadillo might want to contact them about using their facility for tests.
If the Armadillo guys have halfway decent designs, I'm sure the Purdue people would love an excuse to light up a new engine.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
You know, I wonder. AFAIK, John Carmack was one of the ones at iD who was against growing the company too much (and this was one of the reasons Romero wanted to leave). I wonder if getting into all this rocket stuff would make him change his mind. Cars are one thing, but this stuff has to be expensive. A larger company would give him more money to spend on rocketry.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I've always been sceptical of the RocketGuy, but at least he has this part down and is distilling his own peroxide fuel (to 90% purity).
Of course he does have to buy it (at 50% purity), so maybe that's a problem now too.
He could try Hydrogen/Floride reaction to produce similare results. He could go with a hybrid engine to to take advantage of relaxed chemical handling rules that he seems to be hitting. Peroxide is way too dangerous for Carmak to handle. Serriously! The version of peroxide he needs is very pure. The stuff you get at the pharmacy is like 2% or less of peroxide. The stuff he wants is so volitile that it cannot ever come in contact with any other substance, including air, or else you might have an explosion. Most of the time pereoxide is used as a catalist in the overall reaction. The best place to go for x-price feul is the local welders supply. If carmak were highly motivated, he could simply mix his own peroxide. But that would involve containment, and nobody wants to worry about that.
There is several rules for handling the stuff, like you cannot have it within 1000 yards from train tracks (because of electro-static coming down the rails), and obviously a no smoking facility. Thats not all, pure peroxide needs to be incased in a layered cylinder where some type of innert matterial is in between the outside, and the inter peroxide tank. So getting pereoxide is hard, for good reasons. There is very few commercial applications of the stuff.
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
I sure wouldn't sell him peroxide! He blows up, I get sued! NO WAY.
I can just see him trying to make his own, too. EPA and OSHA would be all over him in a HURRY. That stuff is dangerous.
Half the peroxide would go to my ex-girlfriend. Half would go to Carmack.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
I think all you need to get peroxide is some baking soda, baby shampoo, and some yellow #5. I saw this on the discovery channel. Can't believe JC doesn't have the info on that one.
;)
I cannot keep solving all your problems, people, seriously I've got better things to do. Now, where should it rain tommorrow...
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
Talk to these guys
"Oh, you hate your job? There's a support group for that, it's called everyone, they meet at the bar."
The now defunct Beal Aerospace made TONS of the stuff for their booster testing. I have some names of the folks that use to worked there. Beal sold all of his equipment in a big auction about a year ago. I think the manufactering equipment may still be down a McGregor, TX which is just out side Waco, TX. Remember gentlemen this is highly explosive stuff, so equipment is installed at a munitions plant. Maybe somebody will give me a hint on how to contact John Carmack. I can't figure out how to get through all tha identity hiding and the links look that kind of hackerish. Maybe this is all the hints he needs.
My favorite experiment was the sulfuric acid mixed with sugar. I thought it was so cool that I quickly used up all the acid and made my Dad go out and find a big bottle of it.
With all the regulations for liability now along with terrorist worries, it is probably impossible to even get half that stuff. No more ice cream made from liquid nitrogen now that I'm out of college.
1. score some peroxide
2. place in rocket
3. burn up on re-entry?
not much room for profit.
Movies like October Sky nonwithstanding, most of the public doesn't see the value in private experimentation and exploration. 'Space' is something for crewcut jocks and military guys who'll plant a flag on Mars. Enthusiastic third parties who want to expand human knowledge (and do fun stuff along the way) are more likely to be seen as oddball eccentrics than contributors to space exploration.
/. post. I'm not sure if I should be amused, or ashamed.
Sadly, in the wake of the Columbia disaster, they might be seen as a threat as well. Space Shuttle debris scattered across Texas could have spread toxins at random. If that happens with a privately funded craft, I think it's more likely to be seen as an act of dangerous tomfoolery than a tragic setback.
Wow. I just used the word 'tomfoolery' in a
In any case, I think what Carmack and others are doing is great, but expecting cooperation from the public, or industry, is probably a little too optimistic for now.
--v
What an awesome substance hydrogen peroxide is... dilute it can clean a cut, slightly more concentrated could bleach your hair... and at full potency could be a great rocket fuel! And it's cheap too... that is if you can get it...
:-p
Anyone up for a trip to the grocery store? It coulnt be THAT many bottles to boil down and get rocket fuel...
I'd use solid hydrogen, you insensitive clods.
Is there any money in it?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry.
If you thought NASA had reliability problems, wait until a bunch of ex-dot-com starry-eyed MBAs and incompetent engineers hit the space scene. The stock market will be the least of our crashes.
I don't think they are getting ignored because they are "being mistreated". I think they are being ignored because they aren't spending money in the volumes that the peroxide companies would like. In many industries $100,000 is not alot.
I deal with this situtation everyday as an electrical engineer in the aerospace industry. We ask for something and we get ignored because the amount we are willing to spend or the quantity we want is not worth their effort.
It isn't personal, it is just economics. Money Paid - Product Cost - Product Overhead = Profit. In a chemical business, the margins are typically small, so they need to make it up in volume.
I say it's about time that Carmack stops screwing around with those darn video games (you know, the stuff that pays for his toys) and get serious about starting a full-fledged rocketry company. Sure he's rich, but what has he really done for the world? Advances in low-cost rocketry stand to help us out a lot more than Doom III, yes? At 100K a year for peroxide, it sounds to me like he might be (gasp!) serious?
I think that there was a MASSIVE spurt of postings... One moment, I was getting 4 posts.. then next I had over 100. Problems with the slash engine, or just a bunch of over-eager slashdot readers? You tell me.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Hydrogen peroxide as propellent needs to be very pure, and is pretty nasty stuff. The methods to produce the pure stuff are more expensive than average, and are patented and controlled by only one or two companies if I recall correctly.
. htm
h tml
Linkage as follows:
How Stuff Works article on peroxide rockets
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question159
Peroxide FAQ
http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/FAQs/FAQ.
-Z
Look in David Bowie's Hair, there is plenty hidden there.
-You're wasting your time. Alfador only likes me.
Are we really sure that we want the guy who has spent is whole life working on games about blowning sh%t up to be building a giant rocket?
Gotta love when people get way out of their element. This guy really needs to get over his persecution complex. FMC and Degussa likely aren't "jerking you around" for shits and giggles. There is a pretty substantial liability issue with fun stuff like peroxide, and even legitimate buyers likely have a whack of paperwork to wade through. I used to run through some of the paperwork to buy chlorine gas for water treatment plants. Chemical companies kinda want to know who you are before they go selling you potential weapons of mass destruction.
Plus, $100K worth of peroxide may not be a big order to these guys. Small order means that they don't care as much about you, especially if you want some custom spec on it.
What would be better for him to consider is a really experienced procurement specialist, who knows the market and can source things properly. Much better use of money than building your own production facility. Hire someone already in the chemical brokering business to handle the paperwork and pay them a fee for it. Way safer than some enlightened amatuer thinking that it can't be too tough to purify peroxide.
Laugh while you can, monkey boy!
Its hard to know from the post who is exactly to blame. is the peroxide company to blame, or did the rocket team not fully anticipate whats involved in buying large amounts of volatile chemicals? since i don't know, i can't say.
Logic, macros, and more
Carmack really just wants to abuse John Romero's hair.
:)
"Suck it down, Bitch."
Man, I would PAY to see Carmack knock Romero down and dye his hair blonde.
Great!! I've been looking for a way to convert my drug- er- chemicals production facility into a more viable business model! Sign me up! Just one thing, how much peroxide can one get per tanker stolen from farmers?
-jokerghost
...I mean, who needs the government when individual citizens are encouraged to spy on each other. Everyone should be concerned with your business...."why would you possibly need 250 gallons of specially formulated peroxide? What could you possibly be doing with that? Are you a terrorist?"
I guess I can kinda see where you wouldn't want any Joe to walk into your shop with an empty 5-gal. jerry can asking for explosive oxidizers, but If you are a legit. operation and you've got your papers in order, then "these arn't the droids you're looking for.." should be an acceptable answer.
I've read some of the follow up replies too, and it sounds like the economy of the failed drug war will be opened to the custom chemical makers too...by that I mean decentralization of production by creating lots of little specialty shops instead of one easy to monitor monster shop (FMC). In the past, closing of the border only created lots of small producers state-side. Looks like this may happen with chemicals too.
Good luck to our rocket boys....and remember the warning on CNN..."these chemicals can be dangerous...do not touch anything and call the authorities immediatly".......
Aha! Now we now the requirements for running Doom3!
That can be bought and sold, it's just a group of hobbyists.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
What is the world coming to when companies which usually sell explosives to the government won't sell explosives to the guy who programmed Quake or anyone else who is competing for a PRIZE for that matter! Competing for a PRIZE! It RADIATES CREDIBILITY!
Much worse than this post are the posts which follow it. You know, the ones which say "This is the level of intellectual conversation which can be found on slashdot."
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Nasty, nasty, stuff, if I remember my chemistry class.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Here's a quick primer on why peroxide is needed:
His rocket sprays high concentration hydrogen peroxide across a silver catalyst. When hydrogen peroxide touches silver, it breaks apart and converts into heat and water (in the form of steam). The conversion ratio is something like 600 to 1 at 100% concentration, so it's a pretty violent stuff.
The advantages of using a hydrogen peroxide rocket is that it is simple. You turn on a single valve, and peroxide is pumped/forced into the chamber and voila, you get thrust. No flames, no complicated ratios, etc.
The disadvantages are that it's not as efficient as flaming rocket fuels. The ISP (a measurement of thrust and efficiency) is much, much lower for this monopropellent then, say, the liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen main engines on the shuttle.
Peroxide is used by many space programs to get ships off the ground. It is used as follows:
1. Take a big breasted brunette stripper.
2. Use peroxide to bleach hair to an unnatural blonde.
3. Use said stripper to wine and dine (and other fun activities) accountants into signing even LARGER checks... or to blackmail certain 2-4 stars in the Air Force.
4. Use checks to purchase great parties, fantastic houses, and fast cars.
5. Use left over peroxide and a catalyst to launch rocket... or use the left over change to buy a solid fuel rocket, or a hydrogen/oxygen rocket.
Now you understand the wonderful world of peroxide use in modern rocketry.
meh
Um, you can't get 100% hydrogen peroxide. It exists in equilibrium with water; above a certain critical point it spontaneously (and slowly) decomposes to produce water and dissolved oxygen.
In fact, peroxide is a really great rocket fuel. It's cheap. It's easy to handle. It's environmentally friendly. It can be used in monoprop and biprop engines, depending on what you do with it. It's hypergolic, which means it's trivial to build restartable engines (the shuttle's engines aren't restartable; they can only start with assistance from the ground). It's safe, too --- much safer than hydrazine, the most common hypergolic fuel, which is horribly poisonous, carcinogenic and can be unstable, to boot.
Yes, hydrogen peroxide can be nasty. It's a rocket fuel, for gods' sake --- it's supposed to decompose violently. You just have to be careful, and it's a hell of a lot easier to manage than stuff like liquid oxygen. Now, that stuff really is painful to handle.
Peroxide isn't the best fuel; it's got a specific impulse of only about 160-190 seconds when used as a monoprop, but so does hydrazine. And, if you use it as a biprop with kerosene, it goes up to 200-230, which means your ship can have one small tank of kerosene for the main engines and one large tank of peroxide which runs the main engines plus the thrusters. Compare with the shuttle, which uses loads of different fuel types, each with their own storage and delivery systems.
(The best fuels on the referenced page are in the region of 300 to 385. Hydrogen and flourine. Ack!)
But hydrogen peroxide is the perfect choice for a small setup like Armadillo. All you need are a few simple safety precautions --- bleeder valves, non-reactive storage facilities, some basic technical expertise in handling the stuff --- and you're fine.
How easy is it to ship?
How volatile is it in storage?
How long does a batch remain "usable"?
Is this a material subject to any new and expanding anti-terror reporting reqiurements?
How much would it cost to set up a plant? (space, money, staff, hours per staffer)
Are there other salable compounds that can be made with the same setup?
What are the production waste products?
What are various peroxide formulations and how easy is it to switch from making one to making another?
Are any other X-Prize teams using the same formulation?
Does making this stuff require the consumption of lots of electricity and/or water?
If water, then in what ways, if any, does it have to be pre-treated?
Could a plant be made mobile, or at least "luggable" by building it into a large truck and bringing it onsite?
Is this something that your average chem graduate student would be willing to make on a micro scale?
Are there any vendors who might be willing to sell off their more marginal (small capacity, finicky, etc.) production equipment?
Would this be doable by a department at a school like Carnegie-Mellon or Stevens that likes to show off their process engineering chops?
If so, then could grant money be obtained?
And, most importantly, does the whole staff end up blond? :-)
The truth is, I think that I already know the answers to some of these, but years of project management has taught me never to assume.
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
... this guy, Al Kayda, asked me the same thing. And some very nice gentlemen from the FBI want to chat.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
Rocket-grade peroxide is pretty hairy stuff. The stuff you buy at the local corner store is mostly water (like maybe 3% peroxide). For propulsion you want concentrations of more like 90% - 95%. In these concentrations peroxide will consume just about anything which can be oxidized; it's particularly fond of organic material, such as people... No surprise he's having trouble getting it.
Here's a decent FAQ on peroxide, with some stuff on rocketry uses included.
Tell all those fake blondes you know to lay off for a bit...
Gawd knows, there doesn't seem like there's ANYTHING they can't find in Iraq.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
let him scrape a knee and go crying to grandma. Lord knows she was never stingy with it.
If you get an error, type "OVERRIDE" or "SECURITY OVERRIDE" and then try the optimize command again.
come on /., it's only been a few hours!
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
--you can get agricultural grade peroxide at 35% with no problems whatsoever, by the barrel for that matter, some folks use it in place of a bleach chemical for their swimming pools.
Now, if he can get that, how hard is it to make it twice as concentrated? Back yard chemist in the house?
Tell him I'll trade for an advance copy of Doom 3 and a Radeon 9700 Pro.
It's kind of ironic the author of Quake is going to try and rocket-jump to outer space.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Anyway, on to the topic at hand:
We know a few things about this fuel. First, it works really well. Second, it burns like a.. well, you know. Why are we not able to use something that works just as well yet is much safer? I thought the fuel of the future was supposed to be hydrogen with the only byproduct being water? I keep reading about how great it is, how some cars are using it or are going to start in the next couple years, how it's completey renewable, etc., etc., etc. So why is peroxide being studied and tested if hydrogen is so great?
I think one thing we need to keep in mind is the safety factor. If a tank of peroxide explodes during a rocket launch, will any of the liquid make it back to the ground, or will there be any harmful residue that will make it to the ground? I'm assuming that most of the liquid would be burned and would not reach the ground but there could be a toxic cloud and/or harmful residue.
How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
I think he should steal some Plutonium from Lybian terrorists... or invent Mr Fusion
how unusial! as a foreigner i as partially jealous and envious at the oppotunities that americans
have that kiwis (dont laugh...) dont have.
has he ever thought of making H2O2 himself?
Once again this comes as a bit of a shock...
Here is the article, cause it's already slashdotted...
"We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack"
I think from Aldrich. Maybe Sigma. Can't remember.
1. Contact chick on right
2. Extract Peroxide from hair
3. ???
4. Profit!!!
As a bonus, we'll throw in the smurf on the left
Live web cams
Doesn't it seem a little backwards that a company doesn't want to see its product? Especially that much of it??
I agree with some comments that this isn't exactly general interest news.
I am not interested in hearing from every chem major that is interested in starting a business (already heard from a couple, that's how I found out about the slashdot story). However, if anyone here does happen to have a brother-in-law that is a VP at FMC or some such, a little nudge wouldn't hurt.
The full story:
Rocket grade peroxide is stabilizer free, and 85% - 100% concentrated, as opposed to drug store peroxide at about 3% concentration. You can get up to 70% peroxide reasonably easily, but the high concentration stuff is a specialty item.
When we started our development work a bit over two years ago, we were doing some concentration of the peroxide ourselves, which is fine for making small test batches, but you really don't want to be making drums of the stuff, or you wind up spending as much time messing with that as you do building rockets.
We had some initial discussions with FMC about that time, but they weren't terribly encouraging. Shortly thereafter, we made contact with X-L Space Systems, a small company that was producing 98% concentration peroxide and selling it reasonably to several small outfits, as well as NASA and the USAF. I wound up buying a dozen or so drums from X-L, and everything was going well.
The owner of X-L was having such a hard time getting the government to pay their bills on time (he never had complaints about his small commercial customers) that he finally decided it just wasn't worth the headache, and he closed the company down. I was in discussion with him to make a large enough order to justify keeping production open, but we wouldn't need all that much peroxide for nearly eight months, so the storage logistics were looking troublesome. In hindsight, I should have worked something out, even if it was expensive or difficult.
About six months ago, we started contacting FMC again. The details haven't been very pleasant, largely because we keep thinking we are almost there, and it keeps not being the case. If they would just tell me exactly what I have to buy to make them happy, I would gladly do it, but they keep finding new things. That is the "stringing us along" part. They are mumbling again about lawyers and liability at the moment, which we thought had been worked through previously.
We have also spoken to Degussa about production, but they won't sell in drums, only large storage tanks (they supposedly have some drums in the US, but they are "promised to" NASA, and they won't sell them to us). We could live with that, but we broke off contact with them a while ago because FMC was sounding reasonable, but insisting that they be our sole supplier.
This is one of the unfortunate tradeoffs in modern society -- in the 70's, FMC would just ship drums of peroxide to the guys doing rocket powered dragsters without any hassles (one of them sent me a scan of some of his old shipping invoices). Today, fears of liability are larger than basic business drives like making money with your product. I'm not a "back in the good old days" sort, I fully recognize that the other advantages of modern society outweigh the nanny-state disadvantages, but one can always hope for across-the-board improvements.
Other than being almost out of peroxide, things are going very well for Armadillo. We rescheduled a lot of our development now that the X-Prize is fully funded, so we are parallel tracking full scale vehicle development with subscale flight testing.
John Carmack
In Soviet Russia, Rockets John Carmack Builds!
Wait a minute....
I need to some rocket fuel as well, for purely "extra curricular" purposes, could the /. readership help me out too ?
I won't even go into the whole "doom and quake caused columbine" thing. What those two psychos did four or five years ago was heinous and evil. I wont debate that. But why do you (and so many others, for that matter) attribute their actions to a computer game? Sure, its violent and gory, but I and countless others play such games and have no compulsion to commit a mass murder. NONE!
OK, so perhaps those games could have contributed to the deaths of 20 or so innocent people at columbine high school, but chances are that would have happened whether or not those 2 kids had played quake or UT. that simply cannot be the sole reason for that crime, so you simply cannot unfairly blame those games for that terrible act, and especially not Jon Carmack.
alright, so i went into the whole "doom and quake caused columbine" thing. sue me. but you're wrong. dead wrong. i just cant believe some people are that dull-witted.
I just found out where it all went
Modest doubt is called the beacon of the wise. - William Shakespeare
"...there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry"
Attention: Please resist the urge to post the obvious "If MS made a rocket, it'd crash, herrr herr herr" joke. It's about as funny as a Windows user making USB support jokes about Linux. Thank you.
[political sarcasm]
I'm sorry, but anyone who wants to buy peroxide for rocketry is a terrorist. G.W. will back me up on that.
[/political sarcasm]
Peroxide (high concentration stuff) is actually really hard to get and quite dangerous...I don't think many people will be signing up to make peroxide
There's a reason they won't sell. The shit is INCREDIBLY dangerous. Rocket fuel is either extremely volatile, explosive, poisinous, or all of the above.
Some of the stuff nasa uses on the shuttle is lethal in microscopic amounts; I remember reading that maintenance on certain components(despite being unpressurized/offline) is done in full, sealed isolation suits. That's one reason NASA told everyone to keep the hell away from debris. You could literally pick up something and be dead minutes later.
Probably also helped, at least a little, to keep people from scavenging.
I hear they help people find good chemicals. Heh.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Would YOU give peroxide to someone responsible for Doom and Quake?
For great justice.
Ratt
Motley Crue
Warrent
Whitesnake
David Lee Roth
Poison
Firehouse
etc...
I bet they have tonnes to spare.
I feel like I'm missing something.. I just checked drugstore.com.. 99 cents for 16oz. Ok, I realize buying 50,000 bottles from a drugstore isnt realistic, but this stuff is clearly regularly available. He seems to be complaining that he tried one place and they gave him the run around.
We all know John makes engines for the future, but I think he's really outdoing himself this time...
To make a pun demonstrates the highest understanding of a language
Walgreens, in the hair care section.
Bowie J. Poag
And contribute to the blonde population? I don't think so!
Trolls lurk everywhere. Mod them down.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
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We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
Here I was thinking that John Carmack was going to perfect the art of Rocketing Jumping...
Well, whatever Carmack does, tell him he's wasting his time if he asks for help from the UN Weapons Inspectors. Those guys couldn't find rocket fuel if you shot one up their collective ass.
Move to Canada. Apparently, it's somewhat more easy to get your hands on H202, particularily on the west coast because of the high concentration of industrial plants working in the pulp industry.
A simple google search found a few distributers dealing in > 60% concentrations of the stuff.
The world was not created by Carmack.
Flip-flop the OpenGL and Direct3d and you have it right. Jon has promoted OpenGL to the detriment (though not too much) of MS's Direct3D.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Now, there is some minor concern that someone might use this to blow up someone else, but I think that worry is disproportionate. There are lots of cheaper and simpler ways of blowing things up (fertilizer, for example).
With this kind of insane nannying by the government and courts, it's no wonder that people don't go into engineering and the sciences as much anymore. You can still crash on your motorcycle, roll yourself over in your insanely imbalanced SUV, kill yourself rock climbing, or even have yourself blown up in a rocket for billions of dollars courtesy of the US tax payer, but if you want to do something stupid with chemicals at home, the lawsuits start flying and everybody gets very protective.
That could use some help getting off the ground.
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...Whether or not my brother in law is the CEO of FMC may depend on whether or not you can give me an FTP site with the latest build of Doom3... ;)
Click here to read too much about my personal life
They used nitromethane as a monopropellant previously... Why not again?
Aside from being much safer (safer than gasoline or alcohol - 25 percent of the heat energy in gasoline) to transport, it contains nearly 50 percent oxygen, by weight.
Sounds like a winner to me.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
And all he wanted to do was rescue some Marines stranded on Phobos. Damned insensitive peroxide dealers....
Solve FMCs problem to get the order? How? Gee I don;t know purchase liability insurance and show him the policy?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
"I deal with this situtation everyday as an electrical engineer in the aerospace industry. We ask for something and we get ignored because the amount we are willing to spend or the quantity we want is not worth their effort."
Depending upon what you need, you might consider looking to get it in Canada. Canada is a much smaller market (only 10% as large as the USA) so Canadian manufacturers have had to become very good at small production runs and custom orders.
The North American Free Trade Agreement makes it relatively painless to get things across the border and $1.00 US gets you about $1.50 Canadian, so you typically get more for your money, too.
If you can't find what you want on your own, check us out at www.ProjectsDoneRight.com
We have contacts that may be able to help.
Morris
that I'll trade for a beta of Doom. It's in a little bottle in my bathroom right now.
Erris has it right here. You seem to have stumbled upon a fairly well-known engine design for torpedoes that's been around since the 60s I believe. Unfortunately, high concentration H2O2 is a very dangerous oxidizer that can do quite nasty things if not treated VERY carefully. The russian sub Kursk was sunk when one of these torpedoes caused an explosion in the forward torpedo room and blew out the front side of the hull.
For What It's Worth;
:(
In my college some guys were trying to get a less powerful (solid) fuel for their toy rocket but it's use is restricted by the militaries because it could be used to create misiles or bombs for terrorists.
I bet he feels silly over having left all those peroxide drums laying around when writing DOOM.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
It may be easier to get, but man, I sure as hell don't want the spaceship flying overhead to be spewing out hydrogen floride.
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Doesnt rockets to space translate to ballastic delivery vechile
(and so I dont spell check)
lick the cancle button (at least thats what our Chinese QA says)
Well Tecnologia Aeroespacial Mexicana sells hydrogen peroxide distillation stills made entirely in borosilicate glass _image_ that merely removes the excess water. $5900 USD for a 20L unit.
They also sell a special catalyst _image _ made of Rhodium, Palladium, Platinum, Gold and Silver.
They also build rocket engines for satelites and jet packs. They also race jet cars and jet bikes. A link to some people that do this sort of thing....
Some info from the site...
The hydrogen peroxide rocket engines are in fact steam rockets, but this steam is produced by a violent exothermic reaction of the peroxide. When passed through a catalyst pack, it decomposes into superheated steam and oxygen. This steam and oxygen at high pressure is expelled supersonically through a DeLaval nozzle, which produces thrust.
For each volume of liquid injected at the catalyst, after the reaction you get 600 times this volume expelled at the nozzle.
The most important part of these rockets are the catalyst pack, other elements of the system are a stainless steel pressure tank to hold the peroxide, a pressure tank to store nitrogen to pressurize the peroxide, a pressure regulator, a flow regulator, valves, lines and gauges.
The nitrogen is used to pressurize the peroxide tank and push the peroxide outside the tank. When a flow valve is opened the peroxide is injected into the injection plate of the rocket.
The catalyst is made of many silver screens that in the reaction converts the liquid hydrogen peroxide into very hot steam and oxygen at a high pressure, this jet of gas is used to impulse the vehicle.
This kind of rocket together with steam or a hot water rocket is the safest of all the rocket engines. This rocket does not produce flame and between the rocket is considered a cool rocket that doesn't need cooling and can be made of stainless steel.
The Hydrogen Peroxide is the same product used as antiseptic, but in space and rockets it is used at 80% to 98% strength, I use it at 90% and I produce my own peroxide.
The Hydrogen Peroxide is the only product used in the reaction, this places it in the monopropellant liquid rocket fuel classification.
The Hydrogen Peroxide contrary to many false information I read in the web, is a clear liquid, non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product that looks like water but with a great amount of oxygen, thats why in many languages its name is "oxygenated water", this product has a slight biting odor and a little bit irritating for the eyes, at the contact with the skin and the eyes it produces oxidation burns, so you must always wear rubber gloves and a face mask to cover your eyes.
This product increase its stability with concentration, yes!, the more pure and concentrated, the more stable!.
The 90% hydrogen peroxide must be stored in special 5254 aluminum alloy containers with vented caps in shaded or fresh rooms preferably, the product is safer to store than gasoline!, but you must store it in approved containers for hydrogen peroxide service.
The hydrogen peroxide is unstable only if it is contaminated and decomposes easily with almost any impurity, the heavy metals, some strong alkalis and the permanganates decompose it instantaneous liberating a great amount of energy in the form of very hot steam and oxygen.
At this strength the hydrogen peroxide is a very strong oxidizer and upon contact with organic mater it is burned, for instance if you soak a cotton rag with 90% hydrogen peroxide it burns very fast, also it can react in a hypergolic way if mixed with other chemicals.
...producing 98% concentration peroxide and selling it reasonably to several small outfits, as well as NASA and the USAF. I wound up buying a dozen or so drums from X-L, and everything was going well.....
:)
You didn't happen to conveniently place those drums next to the people guarding your facility, did you?
-Greg
According to this article peroxide is ~$0.40 /lb
u t= articleWebzine&articleid=CA120248
http://www.manufacturing.net/pur/index.asp?layo
Strive to make your client happy, not necessarly give them what they ask for
Hence my comments about safety and refusal to work with said substance. If you'd like I'd be happy to put you in contact with the people that review (Safety review) all of our procedures. Wanna guess which ones cause the most grief?
You got to be fucking kidding..
"What was the main reason for the mass murder of dozens of people in columbine? Doom. It's always the same story..."
I've been playing violent games since my early youth, first pirate games/police (what the hell was that called?), then pac man and when wolfenstein came that was the thing - scared the living crap out of me and my friends (age 7-8 I think) but was funny as hell also. Since I've moved on to almost every good shoot-em-up game there is - and guess what - I havent gone balistic in some school nor killed off a few fellow citizens. This is not the games at fault, it is society at fault. You can judge your society by the guys in prison. Here in Denmark every murder hits the front page on national newspapers (doesnt happen that much around here). And instead of blaming every one else for your misery try looking in the mirror... By the way, didn't US just have a guy commiting suicide on live webcam? now that is one fucked up country.. and we let them have nuke's...
Serriously!
I was wondering if anybody would counter my point with the subject you mentioned. Actually Hydrogen/Oxygen would be ideal.... but hydro-floride is cheap, and easy to produce. Hydrogen-peroxide is expesive, and hard to produce. Even harder than oxy/hydro impulse power. I thik that Carmak is going to have the exact same problem I had getting fuel.
You see, I'm a member of the trippoly association. We gateher at the black rock desert every year for high altitude launches of out rockets. Yes, i used to be into high powered amature rocketry, like Carmak is into now. I know about all the goverment restrictions, and the difficulties in getting certain matterials. Carmak will nver get his peroxide. It is simply too dangerous to handle for the civilian public. Especially in his biz park colocation facility. In Mesqite texas, 5 miles from my residence.
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
No, he's saying that hydrogen and fluorine could be used as a propellant system, and that they'd make a darn good combination, at least in comparison with other chemical propellants. It all boils down to producing an intensely exothermic redox reaction. Fluorine is the most electronegative element, and thus rapidly oxidizes most substances- you can "burn" asbestos in a fluorine atmosphere. The more energetic the redox reaction, the more energy you get from the same amount of fuel (higher specific impulse).
It's great in theory, but I believe you've already grasped why this system is not used in practice, at least by anyone I've ever heard of- the clouds of hydrofluoric acid. Plus, it's not like elemental fluorine is inexpensive, or easy to handle, or anything like that- there isn't enough of a performance advantage to choose it over liquid hydrogen/LOX or hydrazine/dinitrogen tetroxide, and the prospect of producing acid rain that can etch glass and melt bones pretty much strikes it from the list.
"FDA staff reviewers expressed concern about the number of patients who were left out of the study because they died."
What's H20? (Water, right?) Then what's H204? ...
;-)
H20 is 4 drinking.
Daniel
These government shenanigans remind me of another dumb joke.
Before they built the chunnel they had put the project up for bid. Everyone was bidding multiple billions of dollars but then one guy comes up and says he can do it for a flat $1million.
Did he win the contract? No. Because the next guy goes to the beuracrat in charge and says he'd do it for $2billion + $1million. $1billion for guy #2. $1billion for the government guy's private bank account and the leftover million goes to pay the first bidder to do the actual work.
and vice-versa if you take the Bible as
Look no further... Come to New Jersey where the hair is big, and the hair is blonde... bleached. We've got enough peroxide you can strain from all the Guma's around here (watch any episode of Sopranos and you can see proof). Heh.
-Christopher Wu
http://www.christopherwu.net/
That people (and suppliers) wont start taking these teams and start up companies seriously until they have some major sponsors.(UPS and FedEx come to mind.)
I'm curious what kind of Public Relations would a large shipping company like UPS or FedEx would get from sponsoring such a thing. It would at least be a great marketing gimmick.
Very pure aluminum (3000 series I think) is used for storage tanks. The aluminum forms a self repairing oxide layer. Organics are a no-no around powerful oxidizers.
Since iodine catalytically breaks down peroxide, it is relatively harmless if it lands in the ocean. The halflife would be quite short.
As for reasons for using peroxide, liquids are denser than compressed gasses. It really is that simple.
Hardware, software, and blinking lights!
Have you considered Flourine?
They make it in large quantities for etching glass and flouridating water supplies. It's all over the place. Shouldn't be too hard to get your hands on some.
In fact, if you read up on what killed the Kursk, they say it was indeed an innocuous little substance that looks like water- Peroxide.
They say what killed the Kursk was starting a torpedo motor in air. It was designed to run in water, so it quickly overheated in air, and that's what ruptured the tank. The peroxide hit the copper fittings in the torpedo room, underwent an oxidising reaction, and the pressure lew out the hull (subs are built to withstand external pressure, no-one was worried about internal pressure).
If you have the leaked Doom 3 alpha (of course you don't, I don't have it either because I'm loyal to id Software), look at the cardboard boxes in the second map. You'll find that there's a warning sign with the number 3293, which is the hazard number for hydrazine (a kind of rocket fuel). Any ideas from where they got those boxes? =P
I'm afraid you are a little behind the times..
Not only is LH/LF tested as a rocket propellant in the 1960s (the X430 and RD350 motors) in both the USA and USSR.
FLOX (30 and 70), a particularly nice mixture of liquid fluoring and oxygen, was used in the atlas rocket and tested in a number of applications (the newer saturn V would have used it, had they ever been built..)
It is assumed that FLOX was also tested in some early ICBM and standoff military systems, however they soon realised that solid fuel was the only answer here..
Since H202 can be used to make rocket fuel, some one could use for less scruplous purposes than the X-prize. I imagine that companies are getting parnoid (maybe even harassed) about selling H202 to anyone but the government. Companies may be even be afraid of getting sued (in the US anyways) if it turns out their products were used in the "commission of a crime".
I rember reading somwhere that an inventer made a rocket fule from apoxy resin, gear oil and oxygen. The oxigen was bubbeled through the oil apoxy mixture with micro bubbles and then given a gentle rotation to move more bubles to the bubles to the center to create a more sturdy exteria and a more oxigen rich core. This fule was cheap stable and almost as powerfull as the nasa booster rocket fule. AERO as in the chocklate bar sponsored the invention (it looked like the chockolate too. This all from the memory of reading an article years ago so correct me if you can
I seem to remember reading that Fluorine-Diborane was about the best, but the impulse thing only works if the combustion chamber contains the reaction and shoots out the combustion product through the expansion nozzle.
The ( i admit never actually tried by me ) process is the same as used in the olden days to make applejack out of fermented apple cider.
Alcohol ( and I believe H202 as well ) freezes at a lower temp than water. By filling a barrel with apple cider( or hair bleach ) and nailing it to an oak tree in the winter you cause ice crystals to form around the outside of the barrel. The wind blows and rattles the barrel around and soon the alcohol or H2O2 drains from between them into the center of the barrel. Then another cold spell and more of the water freezes and sticks to the outside of the barrel. By the end of the winter, the cold and wind have caused most of the water to freeze around a ball of concentrated alcohol/H2O2 by drilling a hole in the hollow ice, you can drain it out.
Of course you can distill alcohol, but this doesn't work for H2O2 since it would decompose under the heat. So you have to concentrate it by freezing.
Eat at Joe's.
Buying an exotic chemical like H2O2 would make it easy for the cops to trace it right to you. Though gunpowder is sold in every Wal*Mart, you could make large quantities yourself even less tracably. Just go down to Home Depot or any other Hardware Store or Agway and pick up either Potassium or Sodium Nitrate fertilizer. Sulfur is available for $2.00/lb at most Agways as fungicide ( though my local one seems to sell copper sulfate for that now you might have to look ) but even if you can't find sulfur, and mix in powdered charcoal briquettes, you can mix confectioner's sugar directly with KNO3 or NaNO3 to make something that will explode. Completely untracable as long as you wait a year or so after purchasing or buy it somewhere far away. You could have your own Keg of gunpowder like on Bugs Bunny & Yosemite Sam for 30 bucks.
Or you could easily make nitroglycerine from stuff from Wal*Mart/Home Depot and use it to set off a charge of Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer ala Tim MicVeigh ( tho he had commercial primacord that is not something most people have access to so homemade Nitro Glycerine would have to be used ) If you don't want to blow your head off making Nitroglycerine, there are tons of other High explosives you can make easy: Mercury Fulminate for instance, Or Silver Fulminate, or that stuff the palestinian suicide bombers strap to themselves to blow up israelis. That stuff is made with hair bleach and other stuff from the grocery hardware store though I forgot what it is. THe recipe is on totse.com . You need a refrigerator to make it or it is WAY too unstable to use/store.
Eat at Joe's.
Yeah hydrogen IS the fule of the future, however in cars and stuff you have air to use in the reaction. In rockets and in space you need to supply the Oxygen for it as well. So you mix the two.....H2O2....wait....it's hydrogen peroxide........:)
That's probably why they moved away from peroxide in the 60's. Liquid hydrogen might be producable from home-made components. Merely electrolyze water and refrigerate it with several stages of liquid nitrogen and compression.
I call troll!
Isn't is sad when you make an intelligent joke, only to have people call you a "dumbass" because of a misunderstanding? I guess you just have to laugh at the irony.
Not that it's pure or cheap, but the stuff sold by art supply houses as "bronzing powder" is, in some colors, basically powdered aluminum. I used that a few years back for some experiments of my own. (My, that stuff is exothermic!)
When I was thinking of using the stuff on a larger scale my plan was to buy big hunks of aluminum and grind them down to powder myself, then use the same sorts of techniques gold prospectors use (settling tanks, long channels, curved sections to use centrifigal force, etc.) to separate the powder by composition and size. Primitive, but cheap and can be made more precise over time.
And, yes, I did consider using various light oils or other fluids as the transport medium.
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
Not that I should be responding to such an obvious troll but here goes.
1.) Nobody personally has ALL the skills to build rockets. It's a safe bet that John C. has more of them then you. Or most managers at NASA for that matter.
2.) Location? I'ld say either rural Texas, where nobody much cares and land is cheap, or the nearest good spot near the Oklahoma Space Port, where they've already committed to this sort of thing.
3.)"Major undertaking"? Duh. Nobody is claiming otherwise. Right above this post are fifty or more going into how and why. But, ya know what? people set up chemical plants every day in America. Jewelers also routinely use mercury, figurine makers melt lead by the ton, and chip makers use solvents that would evaporate your eyeballs just from the fumes. Only a troll would think that anybody, let alone space activists needs to be informed by the likes of you that building rockets is risky business.
Sorry, twit. Try again. Somewhere far from here.
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
Also, you ger faily small (light) combustion products, which also helps Isp.
Even better than pure fluorine is the fabled super-oxidizer ClF5. It is more reactive than pure fluorine (since it's a liquid at sea level, more or less.), and much more dense, which means you need less tankage.
It's so reactive that it pretty much can't be stored in anything for a longer period of time, and it's hypergolic with all firefighting agents commonly in use (including sand).
It is very scary stuff, google for it to find some good stories.
"An object declared as type _Bool is large enough to store the values 0 and 1." -- 6.1.2.5, C99 standard.
The aluminum normally gives you white smoke.
"An object declared as type _Bool is large enough to store the values 0 and 1." -- 6.1.2.5, C99 standard.
Somebody modded that flamebait? For Christ's sake, it's a joke. Sheesh. Do I really have to explain it to you? Obviously the AC didn't get it... Guess I'll have to cross my fingers and hope an intelligent soul out there meta-mods the schmuck.
-FF
SQUEAK, the Death of Rats explained.
Barring things like The Imaculate Conception (one known case) and in-vitro fertilization (only slightly more common), no kinds of motherhood have nothing to do with sex.
That having been said, any kind of (hetrosexual) sex can lead to motherood (for the mother, at least).
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
hope you were joking
No? You are a big douche bag,
Give Euthanasia.