Slashdot Mirror
Congress to Make PATRIOT Act Permanent
955301 writes "As if it was unexpected, the New York Times (free reg...) has an article on attempts by our Congressional Republicans to eliminate the expiration of the Patriot Act. Everyone may thank Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah for getting this 9/11 snowball rolling, and the general population for our current leadership." There's another story in the SF Chronicle.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'm glad I'm Canadian.
that one day, when the patriot act is finally challenged in the supreme court it will be destroyed.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
This is not a joke, just a question. What is wrong with the patriot act. Not crazy leftwing ideas but real examples of how this is so bad that any reward in stopping criminal acts is NOT worth the costs.
I have no opinion on it yet but look forward to reading yours.
%subject
Yeah, a few possible terrorists are caught at the tiny expense of the freedom and rights of 250+ million innocent people.
...
How are they going to stop you? Throw you in jail and not let you see a lawyer?
Oh wait...
and the general population for our current leadership.
The general population? Or the justices of the Supreme Court?
That said, to get back more on topic, I hope some lawyer somewhere will have the balls to run with a case against the PATRIOT Act, and run far with it, taking it to the Supreme Court. By that time, hopefully, there will be some new court members in and maybe, just maybe, the general population will see how badly the act is fucking them over, and with popular support, something could be done.
It is, after all, a nice dream.
SecondPageMedia - Wha
That chilling effect you feel is not your lack of trousers...
I wear pants.
Can you back this up? Can you document how many terrorists have now been caught that wouldn't have been caught without it? Kindly provide links.
Seems to me that an act like this indicates one of two things:
1. The government knows damn well the "war on terrorism" is a total flop and will never achieve its goals.
or
2. The "war on terrorism" is a ploy to promote and sustain the government's move to seize more power.
All things being equal, I'd say the first is more likely, especially since I can offer no theory of motive for the second. In either case, if ever the government did something that clearly demonstrates foul intent, this is it. Imagine the impossibility of the PATRIOT Act's effects ever getting nullified by ammendments.
And don't forget what's on the horizon for the United States. It just keeps going downhill, doesn't it?
Join Tor today!
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase
a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin
And how many years before 9/11 did we go without a terrorist act? And how many years before that were we hit by a terrorist act enacted by people who are not American citizens?
So how do you come to the conclusion that the Patriot Act works?
Sweet tap dancing Christ!
I have a rock that keeps tigers away. I haven't seen any tigers lately, so it must be working fairly well.
- A real programmer uses $ cat > a.out
His support for this is neither a surprise or unexpected. Look for him to sponsor if not introduce Partiot II in the next year.
He has been named several times as a possible replacement for any of the retiring Justices. He now has to prove himself conservative enough to ensure his legacy and a possible shot at the Chief Justice's seat.
Riiight. So you will only speak on the condition of anonymity but all ordinary citizens are expected to forfeit that right? I'm sure the irony of that situation will go unchecked.
"My fingers Emit sparks of fire in Expectation of my future labours." William Blake
You haven't picked up your copy of the 9th edition of Newspeak, have you?
SecondPageMedia - Wha
What could you do if the FBI put a wiretap on your phone? They didn't even need permission from the courts. Well?
...
Oh, wait. I said WAI......
You could've hired me.
"A year and a half without a terrorist act. Either the Patriot Act works or the terrorists have been in a good mood lately. My guess is the former."
Remind me, how many terrorist acts on American soil were there in the few years before 9/11?
...join in the ACLU.
--Bruce F.
There are no giant squids within a thousand miles of here. Either my anti-squid paperweight works or the squids have been in a good mood lately. My guess is the former.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
How much more dilluted could this person possibly be?
Anyone remember the last Star Wars movie? The part where the Chancelor (I think) was given supreme power to build a clone army and he said afterwards he would step down. Isn't it sad when power is meant to be instituted upon an individual or group for a limited time, but when that individual or group gains that power they suddenly realize "hey I like this, I wanna keep it." The power of corruption with those in power is amazingly strong. Even worse fact is that those in power don't really think that what they are doing is wrong. We can't allow them to just extend an Act because they feel it is right. The people I'm sure don't feel like it is right.
Question everything.
Simply linking to someone else's work and putting a spin on it is NOT journalism!
So we've had the patriot act for about a year and a half now. The best justification I read in the article was that it MIGHT have "allowed the F.B.I. to get a warrant against Zacarias Moussaoui." There's a big difference between MIGHT have and definately would have.
Somehow I don't feel any safer.
----
Squirrel
But didn't the general population vote for Gore?
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
A: Hitler was elected fair and square.
jj
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
The parent asks for a specific example, and you respond with a quote. The question remains, what liberties are you referring to? Or can you name none?
Um, no. Everyone may thank five citizens and an obsolete and outmoded Consitutional body for the current leadership. See what you get when you let democracy break down, people?
So by this argument, and the discussion that will follow, upon the next act of terrorism on US soil that succeeds without prior detection will prove this Act misguided?
I doubt it. This thing is here to stay. Until some progressive leadership realizes our immigrant population is dwindling because of harassment. "Thank God" the nationalists cry. But lets not forget, these are the people are outrank us in any tests of the maths and sciences, and they include some of the best entrepreneurs we have.
Why not outsource then? If I can pay for the same skills overseas, I'll take it. Not all skills are outsourcable, I've commented on this already. What a great help to the EU and Asia! We're going to pump more corporate dollars overseas, meanwhile we try to shut down the surreptitious church funds and money transfer shops. Ironic.
We're closing ours doors through fear. The effects are going to be subtle and long-felt. There's a marketing aspect here. Each time, regardless of usage, the Ashcrofts of the administration argue for "war time infrigements", we're fueling a isolationist platform. History has proven these moves to be limiting to only growth, and not much good otherwise.
mug
freedom fries? patriot act? cant the (stupid) americans come up with NORMAL names for their stuff? i see 3rd Reich #2 not too far ahead...
Uhh.. wouldn't that make it the er.. 4th Reich?
I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
I'll second Keeper.
And make a few observations of my own.
We (meaning the U.S., Britain and allies) are in the process of defeating a country that tightly controlled its people. We did the same to the late Soviet Union -- another nation that practiced tight control of its citizens.
Many historians argue that the Roman empire fell because it moved from a laissez faire model -- we don't care what you do as long as you don't try to sack Rome -- to trying to run peoples' lives.
Tyranny works -- briefly. Then it destroys.
"Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- B. Franklin
If any bias, I see more Libertarian bias than anything else. Don't confuse being against the war or against the current administration with being pro-Saddam or pro-Dem.
I just became a card carrying member. What about you guys? I am sure most of us can spare $35 dollars.
Join Tor today!
So then you believe that despite numerous calls to jihad from Bin Laden that Al Queda is taking a vacation and isn't attempting further acts of terror?
Oh dear. I hope you are not counting on the kinds of judges that the current administration seems to favor. If Bush gets re-elected into a second term (probable), you can kiss a balanced court, and probably most kinds of abortion, good-bye for another generation.
------
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Please let this be sarcasm, please let this be sarcasm, pleeeaaassseeee.
Visit www.seriouslythough.com
..unfortunately, the whole Gore/Bush thing is already done. Try again in a year or so.
What they're talking about is Congressional. You know, the guys who actually *write* the laws?
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
People complain about how nothing ever changes, yet they continue to vote for the same candidates. Elect Freedom.
www.lp.org
$u(k 1t!!!!11!
Dude, you just referenced two liberal rags claiming the Republicans are pulling the sky down.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
recently i got the chance to visit japan for two months. while i was there (august 30th - november 4th) i got a different look at the US. i heard the hubbub around the snipers from a completely different angle, and watched as the patriot act was passed.
when i entered japan, the things important enough to be mentioned in english were: no firearms, drugs, intoxicants or pornographic articles. going back into america i had to take my compass out of my math bookbag, empty my tolietries kit and get rid of my scissors. it's completely ridiculous to do things like this to 13-14 year olds that only want to get back home. i decided then and there that something wasn't right. when i got home and raised the alarm, people accepted it mutely, almost like sheep. no one seemed to care that they could be taken away without any trial if the government wanted to, or that their isp could be forced to reveal weblogs or ip traffic from their account.
i figure, since im already going to school where there are mostly 13 year old sheep, new zealand won't be much of a change..
At least the war on the environment is going well
Maybe they're just assuming all geeks are intelligent?
I remember when legal used to mean lawful, now it means some kind of loophole. - Leo Kessler
Seems that glrotate came to the conclusion via post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Wait a minute, though. Isn't that a logical fallacy?
and do the following:
s/communism/terrorism;
s/USSR/Al Qaeda;
s/Russia/Iraq;
and you will see what the United States is about to become again.
Doing the Right Thing should not be preempted by making a buck.
It's much easier for our government to protect our freedoms if you're willing to give up all but a few, so that they need only concentrate on protecting those few.
Guess those thousand or so "terrorists" being held without being charged for any crime and without any sort of due process will be in jail for a long time to come. Worse yet if the Patriot Act is continued there will probably be thousands of more "terrorists" locked up just because some dumbass thinks they may have some relation to terrorists. Gotta love the stuff this country does somethimes.
The Patriot Act is unconstitutional. Period!
... and things like this will only lead to the same end ...
... and if laws like this are not repealed, then other laws with similar or worse implications will slowly be approved. The people simply won't tollorate it!
... Patriot Act III: The gov't has the right to put cameras on every street corner, business, and suspected terrorist's home???
.... so if you don't report your USE tax (state taxes for purchasing items on the internet w/o paying taxes at the time of purchase), then you're going to jail for atleast 5 years since the purchase was made encrypted and, if you fils your taxes online, that was encrypted as well! Also (I don't want to protect hax0rs, but ...) if you break into a server using SSH, there is 5 years as well!!
... yet another reason the US "system" is in need of serious reform ... to prevent businesses from "funding" politicians to get these kind of crazy laws passed!
Seriously, it was another "Act" that was passed by King George all those years ago that severely limited our freedoms that caused a revolution in this country
As soon as this terrorist thing cools off a bit, this "Act" will be revisitied and decalred unconstitutional.
Any "law" that gives the government the right to spy on people will not last
I understand the need for security, but this has gone too far! What is next
Now I know this is a bit off topic, but this "Patriot Act" series has to come to a screeching halt! PA II, not yet passed, allows the US government the right to add 5 years onto a jail sentence just for using encryption when commiting a "crime"
These "patriot" acts are just another example of big business paying off politicians to get rediculous laws into place that will protect their interests (even though it may LOOK like they are protecting the people).
To the US gov't: Stop wasting time on this kind of stuff and go find bin Laden!
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
The PATRIOT is our most anti-constitutional act to date that most people can name. By nature of the erosion of liberties contained within it becomes quite possible to violate several aspects of the 4th amendment (among many others) to the point that they may as well negate it. Our government seems hell-bent on amassing as much power as it possibly can. With Ashcroft et al. in charge of defending our liberties, I can only hope that someone in government will wake up and propose a counter-act to this. That we stand by and have allowed this to occur is miserable, that government continues to exploit it borders on criminal. Laws are not always inherently moral, and this law is among the greatest examples of how ethics and law do not always correlate. How many "terrorists" this law has caught may never be known since the government has not authorized release of information of the people involved. Secret trials, evidence allowed based on word-of-mouth and witness testimony only, and imprisonment without due process are against the Constitution but allowed under the PATRIOT act. This fascist law must be eliminated to protect our nation's freedoms and prevent our overbearing, paternal government from becoming merely a Big Brother.
We cannot allow this to continue. I will be writing my Congressmen and saking others to do the same. Laws like this are how Hitler, Mussolini, and numerous other dictators got started. Law is built on precedence, so if we allow this to continue the envelope will be pushed until new even more intrusive laws are allowed. Seriously, if we are allowed to treat non-citizens like lawbreakers without reprisal, how long will it be before we are allowed to treat citizens like lawbreakers mere for speaking against the government? Oregon is already proposing legislature that would allow peace protestors to be arrested on terrorism charges. How long before this is carried nationwide?
Our rights are under serious threat from a government led by certain people that thirst for power. If we don't act now, it may well be illegal to act later. Call your reps and senators, spread the word, and let's try to kill this thing now before it becomes permanent law.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
Homer: "Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm."
Lisa: "That's specious reasoning, Dad."
Homer: "Thank you, dear."
Lisa: "By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away."
Homer: "Oh, how does it work?"
Lisa: "It doesn't work."
Homer: "Uh-huh."
Lisa: "It's just a stupid rock."
Homer: "Uh-huh."
Lisa: "But I don't see any tigers around, do you?"
Homer: "Lisa, I want to buy your rock."
</obSimpsonsReference>
Too late to be known as Bush the First, he's sure to be known as Bush the Worst.
Sir, I want to buy this rock you speak of. Here is my right arm as payment. While you're at it I also want this sweet tap dancing Christ you speak of.
Visit www.seriouslythough.com
dilluted
I don't know. How much water did you soak him in?
The Patriot Act is a tax on civil liberties. Perhaps it is necessary. But we must demand at least as much proof of its necessity and review of its impact as we would a new tax. To require cost benefit analyses is *not* saying that it should be abolished, unless it cannot withstand scrutiny. And if it can't, why have it? If you're going take civil liberties out of my constitutional wallet, you better be ready to tell me where you're spending them and how well you're doing.
For these reviews or cost benefit analyses, a minimum step would be to require them to meet the requirements from this well-written report:
"...I have suggested that any [proposed new law] must meet a four-part test:
Is anyone surprised at the news that the Bush Administration will use its popularity following the victory in Iraq to expand the police state? Thanks, warmongers.
Should have used preview. there was supposed to be a at the end of that.
Change the 'www' in the link to 'archive' so people don't have to register to read the story. Modified link
Everyone who voted for Bush, plus everyone who didn't vote, plus everyone who voted for a legislator who voted to pass the act in the first place, plus everyone who voted for a legislator who will vote to eliminate the expiration of the act.
It's all their fault.
The Supreme Court just keeps us from having to have a civil war everytime election results are contested.
paintball
Al Queda attackes have occured, on average, every 18 months since Gulf War I. This includes attacks on other countries such as the one recently in Australia.
Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
You are not alone
I also have a rock that keeps tigers away. I've been using it for years and haven't encountered one tiger. You can buy it for a small sum, if you'd like...
$ make love
make: don't know how to make love. Stop
I love how these types of post are always Anonymous. If you love this country so much, why post Anonymously?
I'm not worried about my privacy in this case because I'm not a criminal and I don't do anything that would attract the FBI's attention. If they want to tap my phone, I may be a little pissed that they are wasting tax dollars and their time on me, but that's it.
How is it that one careless match can start a forest fire, but it takes a whole box to start a campfire?
It's odd that Hatch would sponsor this. He's a conservative asshole, and a strange guy to boot, but he's always been well behind privacy rights in the past.
Using that exact same logic --
Ever since I started playing Starcraft, my house hasn't been burglarized. Therefore I can conclude that playing Starcraft scared away burglars.
Christian Churches were banned because they were breeders of Terrorists.
White Men with short haircuts were interviewed by the CIA to determine their Official Level of Loyalty.
The military was disbanded because it gave Would-be-Terrorists skills and training to do their work.
???
.sig
Oh wait, back in Reality, Totalitarianism and Fear Mongering only works when the boogie-man is OUTSIDE the borders and easily picked-out...
America has always loved to rally in hate against an Enemy, how lucky this new one is so Evil(tm). Read my
"Congress to Make PATRIOT Act Permanent"
Well that's not at all accurate.
It's not been voted on. Hell all the articles about this story state clearly "the move is likely to touch off strong objections from many Democrats and even some Republicans in Congress." Or that "Congressional Republicans, working with the Bush administration, are maneuvering to make permanent."
Where are we at in this process? Is the President signing it? Hell no it's being discussed. Discussed, not being voted on as we speak, discussed.
The best part is down at the bottom of the SF Gate piece.
"But political jockeying over separate, bipartisan legislation sponsored by Sens. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., and Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., appears to have given Hatch the chance to move on the issue much earlier than expected. The Kyl-Schumer measure would eliminate the need for federal agents seeking secret surveillance warrants to show that a suspect is affiliated with a foreign power or agent, such as a terrorist group."
Oceania has always been at war with East Asia!
Listen, friend. I voted for a Republican, a Democrat and a Green in the 2000 elections. It has nothing to do with your indoctrinated misconstruction of what "liberalism" is and everything to do with the government put the screws to liberty. I'd rather pay 2x the taxes, get a good education for it and be able to say, do, and think as I feel and please. Get your head out of the FoxNews warnography peep show and into what is going on.
You aren't alone. There are millions of people who'd rather be able to drive their SUV using cheap gas to their chipboard mansions in the suburbs, all the while, thinking that Big Corporation contrivance equals freedom. The irony is: we are "liberating" Iraq, but Bush, Cheney, Karl (Goebbels without the whimsy) Rove, et al. are using the memory of all those people who were killed at the WTC, in Afghanistan and, now Iraq, to set up their own control of your totality.
I repeat: Oceania has always been at war with East Asia!
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
That doesn't matter. Now the U.S. can legislate more and catch those ones! And when they run out of those, more legislation!
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
This is perhaps the most intelligent post in response to the article. No partisan propaganda, just a logical, well thought-out idea.
What about that nut who shot up the Airport in CA last July 4?
What about the DC sniper?? Those dudes ran around a highly populated metro for nearly a month before they got nabbed on a lucky break.
Neither was prevented by this act that was SPECIFICALLY designed to combat this type of "lone wolf" terrorists.
And, BTW, I don't care what the media calls them; these two examples are terrorist acts.
CNN? The Clinton News Network? Yeah... they're not biased at all... *sarcasm* Are you serious? Get a life and forget about world issues entirely? My god. You're actually advocating a dictatorship by saying that. Think about it. If everybody "forgot about world issues", then nobody would care what the government did, and a dictatorship would eventually arise, like it always does when nobody stops them. The only way to change things for the better is to NOT forget about issues.
"It's better to have a gun and not need it than need a gun and not have it." ~ Christian Slater, True Romance
While I agree that too much government involvement in our lives is not a good thing, what do you, the /. community think is a good solution to provide the government with tools to be able to combat terrorists? Obviously, we can't have it both ways, or can we? What do you think?
My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
Let's see:
September 2001 - WTC and Pentagon bombings.
August 1998 - US Embassy Bombings.
April 1995 - Oklahoma City Bombing (US Citizen).
February 1993 - First World Trade Center Bombing.
That doesn't include the various hijackings over that involved Americans. I also don't see the point in distinguishing between US citizens and foreigner attackers. It doesn't matter to those who die.
Just because you are an ignorant child doesn't mean that we all are.
What? You don't want your name attached with the fact you are happy about spying on people. Shocker.
I'm not drunk, I just have a speech impediment. And a stomach virus. And an inner ear infection.
Rediculous!
The Sun Never Sets on the American Empire.
Why should it set on Her acts?
Another secret warrant law, this one to help speed the capture of "lone wolves," that is, terrorists who work without affiliation to a terrorist group. See the problem here? This is all about targeting individuals and making it even more secretive than it already is.
The decent into madness continues, unabated.
------
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Well, the FBI seems to have found a new form of crack with those "secret warrants" -- which of course prevent anyone witnessing their being carried out from disclosing they were carried out and subjects the parties to such warrants to being jailed indefinantly under secret charges.
Can we say "police state"?
So, who's surprised that these "temporary losses of freedom" are now on the fast track to being the new mandate to lead to farther reaching Federal policies?
Sure now it's terrorists, but then becomes a model for dealing with "potential" murderers, rapists,drug dealers...
I strongly urge every one here who is a US citizen to write email and/or snail mail to their state senators TODAY.
Forward the links to everyone you know and urge them to do the same.
that Gore wouldn't have done the same thing, had he won.
I mean, come on, California has as many senators as South Dakota. No disrespect meant for South Dakota, but 34 million people ought to get more senators than 750K. Since electoral votes are allocated by Representatives + Senators, there is something severely wrong here.
sulli
RTFJ.
socialism and communism have never (and will never) worked, but the "inteligent" liberals of this Earth keep pushing for them? Denying concrete evidence is not a sign of inteligence, it is ignorance at its highest levels.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Yeah, I think you are alone. When ever I read Slashdot, it sounds like most of the people are either conservatives or libertarians. It seems like there's very little liberal bias here. At least to this liberal, you all seem awfully damn conservative.
Another gutless AC. Tell me-- are you a typical "brave american"?
Acquiescence leads to obliteration
Image is available here, conveniently sized at 1280x960.
It may damage your screen, though, and you may be forced to go to the library to check out a book.
For those who don't have time/inclination to read the article: Congress is not making the PATRIOT act permanent. The article says that Orrin Hatch is attempting to make the act permanent. Many Congressmen agree; many disagree. Let your representatives know what you think. But know that this is not in the works already. This article's title is horribly misleading.
At the risk of my karma:
Liberal bias in Slashdot. Bah. Set up another straw man, I'm tired of hearing about liberal bias. Have you looked out the window recently? This country is so far right, we can't see left from here.
If it's really a burden for you, there are plenty of sources for you. I would recomend FOX and CNN for starters. They are very right-friendly, and you will feel very comfy there. No one will question government motives, no one will ask embarrasing questions about corporations. You can safely dream that this is the same country portrayed in "Leave it To Beaver."
Thanks for stopping by, and sorry for making all this liberal noise about rights & privacy. I mean really, what were we thinking?
As a final note, I'd caution you about the internet, it's a rough neighborhood, and you may bump into some ideas that aren't the same as yours. I wouldn't worry though, It'll all be cleaned up in a couple of years. I hear Disney's buying it.
What were you expecting?
ladies and gentlemen, the terrorists have won.
At least it's legal this time, old J. Edgar Hoover did this stuff under the table years ago.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
They act as if sunset provisions = not caring about the law. Quite the opposite, I think. Sunset provisions mean that a law is so important that it is worth coming back to, over and over again. Is it such a hard thing to ask that Congress spend at least as much time on "Review of Changes to Civil Liberties and Constitutional Rights in Response to Terrorism" once a year as they do to "What Shall We Call Deep Fried Potato Strips In Our Cafeteria?"? Or that they spend as much time each year reviewing it as they did in passing it in the first place? (which was, unfortunately, just a few hours as I recall: Congresspersons didn't even get a chance to read it, not all 300+ pages)
..the home of the free will be in Iraq?
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Do the phone tapper detector things work?
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
As it happens, when I view the story, I see this advertising image. Interesting message, I think: Don't be afraid, be a PATRIOT.
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
So what does it take for a current US citizen to emigrate and become a Canadian citizen in those territories?
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
But a few terrorists with WMD can kill millions...
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
You're mistaking Slashdot for a news site. Slashdot isn't a news site, it's a discussion board. If you want news, go to the AP.
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
Welcome to /., Mr. Ray-gun!
I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
It's way too early for you to say the "war on terrorism" is a total flop. So far it's driven the Taliban out of Afghanistan and taken control of Iraq. This is in only about 15 months.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Actually, if I were in Al Queda, I would not attack the USA now. Outside - yes, and that still happens, but I'd let America destroy itself from within.
Without attacks this was bound to happen. Sooner or later someone would get the idea "This works! Less civil rights = more safety!". This is already a win for terrorists. Now, whether they wait patiently as your representatives take away your rights, effectively weakening (!) the system and losing public support (not just yet, totalitarism creeps in slowly), or just wait until you are already very concerned, but most "normal people" feel safer than ever and _then_ strike - it's just a matter of choice. Both actions will be devastating.
Face it, the terrorists have won. The Patriot Act is a proof and it won't stop here. I'm glad I'm not american. Unfortunately my country "follows Americas lead" in everything, so it won't be long...
Good luck guys. If America doesn't wake up before it's too late, we're all doomed. I was born in communism and I really don't want to see it again as "antiterrorism" in umpteen years.
Muslim clerics have been calling for Jihad since the late 1970's to no avail. Members of Al Qaeda commit terrorist acts because they're terrorists, not because they're Muslim.
This is my sig.
This legislation can be stopped. It only takes 40 Senators to filibuster a bill, and if the Democrats are willing to show some guts, there might be enough pro-civil liberties Republicans to shoot it down there, too.
Immediately go the ACLU's action page where you can send a free fax to your representatives. It'll take you all of 15 seconds.
Next, call both of your Senators and your representative. Politely but firmly demand that they vote against this. Make clear that how your senator votes on civil liberties issues is very important to you.
If you haven't already done so, Register to Vote (PDF document).
Write a letter to the editor of your local paper. Doesn't have to be a great work of prose, just give an example or two of how the PATRIOT Act threatens the constitution. Give the Ben Franklin quote. Letters to the Editor is one of the most read sections of the newspaper, and politicos read it closely.
Tell your friends. Sure, some people get irritated when politics gets brought up, but that's a small price to pay for the future of American democracy.
Lastly, act on your belief when election time comes around. Donate, volunteer, and vote for candidates who are on record supporting constitutional liberties.
Red All Over: Rambling Missives from an Aspiring Revolutionary
The simple fact is that had the public really had a strong preference one way or another, there wouldn't have been a Supreme Court case to decide the issue. The general population's indifference brought us to where we are today.
This holds true for the current occupant of the White House and for the existence of USA PATRIOT: an unrelated travesty, since Congress passed it--not the President. Do you honestly believe that things would be so much better if a different man were in the White House? How would that have changed USA PATRIOT?
Your last sentence is the only insightful one. "See what you get when you let democracy break down, people?"
Blaming the current state of affairs on the Supreme Court or the system (the rules to which all partipants agreed beforehand) is a red herring.
Here's a history lesson for all of us to read. "On March 2, Hitler was asked by a corespondent of the Daily Express whether the suspension of liberties was permanent. He answered in the negative saying that full rights would be restored as soon as the Communist danger was over. The reality was that the decree of February 28th established what would become the normal order of things under National Socialism - arrest on suspicion, imprisonment without trial, the horrors of the concentration camps. This condition would persist until the end of the Third Reich."
Someone, please shake me from this wide-awake nightmare.
You should learn from europe. We had our own internal "terrorist groups" to deal with, but we never stoped being a somewhat carefree society, oposed to the current state of North-American paranoia. Try visiting europe *preferably with a Canadian passport right now*, and you can feel the lack of fear in the air, other than the concern about the current US administration. We dont give more importance to any "terrorist" than we would give to "organized crime" and "serial killers".
The difference is pretty moot.
Idiots.
Way too many blithering idiots on this site.
Karma: NaN
Patriot
2
Basically, if the government declares you an enemy combatant (which it can do
for any reason without any due process), you can be stripped of your
citizenship under Patriot 2!!!!!! (no current law exists anywhere in the US
which can strip citizenship)
Suicide Booth: You are now dead! Thank you for using Stop and Drop, America's favorite since 2008.
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
Thanks to our moderately socialist government, you actually get paid to live in those territories ... but I don't know if emigrants get that. You could start looking at the Government Canada website, if you want.
Hatch is a Mormon and Mormon's believe that one day the Constitution of the US will "hang by a thread."
In that day, the Mormon belief goes, the Elders of the Mormon church will rush in to rescue it.
I wonder if Hatch believes he is rescuing the Constitution here or if he is trying to hurry it's demise so that the Mormon Elders can come in to rescue it.
Remember, this is the same guy who wants a Constitutional ammendment to prohibit flag burning.
(Note: Before you flame me for being a Mormon basher, please note that I myself am a Mormon and my views on Senator Hatch have nothing to do with my views on my religion.)
Read any good sonnets lately?
Write and email your senators and representatives, stop the madness, save our constitutional rights. MM
He was appointed by a coalition of right wing parties whose leaders though that they would have control over him.
hehe according GWB he undoubtedly is
The coup was successful. All that remained was to make his war powers permanant.
I found the submission extremely biased and full of rhetoric. Congressional Republicans? Give me a break. I don't see Democrats fighting for my rights any more than Republicans. Look for yourself, Democrats passed the Patriot Act too. Remember we can get screwed from both sides of the isle.
And finally, please do not just complain and Slashdot, write a letter to a Congresscritter, inform others, and vote. The system will not fix itself.
Slashdot comments can be accurate, highly modded, or posted quickly. Pick two.
...and if you were in touch with the American electorial process, you'd see that Bush was too....which has nothing to do with anything...
*cough*..hint...popular vote DOES NOT elect the president! Period!
what if there is another terrorist attack? what rights will we have left for them to take? these laws need to pace themselves....
The time to act is now folks. Here is how to contact your representative/s.
Actually, I was told that if you grind up all your money and mix it with some salt, anywhere you pour that, bad guys will stay away... Really, it'll keep all the bad guys away.
Defence Budgets
~ kjrose
But as a starting analogy I think it is powerful, because it links in with some politicians' (Republicans especially) stated desires to demand accountability and cost benefit analyses for new regulations or current taxes. A permanent change to our civil liberties should demand as much review as a new regulation on air quality and pollution control equipment, no? And we should review it as much as we do regulations to make sure we're not mandating outdated technologies or trying to fix a problem that no longer exists?
Shut up you goddamn hippy. All you people every spout is corporate this and corporate that. If you want to start a revolution KEEP going to work and just fuck everything up there for as long as you can. Eventually it will collapse in on itself from failure.
That's how the revolution will be fought, not with guns but with intelligence.
Hammer of Truth
You just have to ask nicely and have lots of money.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
As usual, everyone is convinced that the government is going to swoop into your house and arrest you for doing a web search for porn. Relax. Get a grip.
The government also has the right to buy you property against your wishes as long as they give you fair compensation for it, which they could deem as being a dollar, but they haven't done that have they?
So if this act allows them to monitor people who are extensively searching for bomb making instructions and using hotmail to contact afghanistan...so be it.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
Isn't it time that US people start voting for a change? you might surprice yourselfs in the effect... People who let these law's made deserve no freedom...
Reading the story made me remember two words that ran shivers down my spine... "Gleichschaltung" and "Ermächtigungsgesetz".
Don't get me wrong, I do not wish to compare the Patriot act to those horrors of the past, or imply that the American Democracy is at stake.
And still, making an act permanent, that radically cuts civil rights for (the citicens' or the states'?) safety summoned those two horrors up.
And thus I must agree with another poster's Benjamin Franklin quote:
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
Of course, the US could never do anything so monstrous. No! Never! Trust George Bush. "We are fighting evil. And this will take a long time." "The war against terror could take a very long time."
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
WTF is this modded "informative"? Maybe you should all go to "how stuff works" and find out how the Electoral College works. Then consider whether the practice of assigning at least one house rep per state is fair. After all, that gives Alaska a lot more represenation per person than, say, New Mexico.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
...gets you nowhere. There's a reason why the government is like it is today, and it isn't the application of money - the fact that the government isn't skewed even more Republican has to do with personally wealthy Senate candidates the last few elections throwing their fortunes into the race. Instead of a 52-47 split you might be seeing 56 or 58 Republicans there. Think Jon Corzine or that woman in Washington State. Or even resurrecting the dead like Frank Lautenberg in NJ - if not for him, that seat would be an R too.
For a long time the Democratic party has been shooting itself in the foot and in this latest rush to war they have continued to do so, with ill-timed antiwar remarks as well as completely spineless repudiation of the same remarks, at inopportune moments. Make up your freaking minds already, or have a strategy!
How about turning that funeral in Minnesota into a political rally? Paul Wellstone and his family might not have been bothered, but the undecided public certainly was. Insert foot in mouth again.
Opposing the tax cut in 2001 wasn't very inspired either. How do you oppose a strongly presented tax cut without alienating voters? Pretty much impossible.
The Gore persistence in the 2000 election claims cost them big - there is no question about that. The Democrats came out looking like the bad guys there, no matter what the "appointed president" wackos care to spout off about. Gore was the whiner, Bush was laid back about the whole thing, and this came off clearly to people. The real battle is in the court of public opinion, represented by those who aren't committed to one party or another. The zealots all have their particular axe to grind.
The people running the Democratic party are all Clinton-sponsored and brought up in the hubris of the aforementioned administration. This was the same administration that weathered the President getting a hummer in the Oval Office closet, the murder of one of their close associates in very suspicious circumstances (Vince Foster, of course), $200 haircuts on the LAX takeoff queue, holding up traffic a couple hours, 8 years of investigation due to their shady '80s business dealings, and i'm barely scratching the surface. Yet, Clinton survived.
Too bad none of the current Democrat leaders have the ability to manipulate public opinion at that level. They must think they do, however, because they continue to operate as if they can explain away any stupid transgression or idiotic point of view they might espouse. That power belonged (and belongs) to Bill Clinton himself.
Of course, we could look beyond Clinton himself and point at the House Post Office and House Bank scandals to show the idiocy of the Democrats. They _had_ to know that this kind of thing would have come out eventually, but they waited for it to bite them in the ass. These are politicians? That garbage went a long way to losing the House and Senate for them in '94.
In short, looking back on the last 10 years and how the power shifted (remember that in 1993 the House, Senate, and the White House were Democrat), one can only blame the Democrats for their own woes. I don't see them as providing an adequate counterpoise to Republican domination of America. Until the leadership is completely dismantled and replaced with competent politicians, you can expect this situation to persist, at extreme cost to our civil liberties.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
"Dancing on the streets of Washington as Arab coalition forces liberate the people of America!"
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Enjoy the result:
SENATOR JOSEPH McBUSH
Speech at Wheeling, West Virginia
February 9, 1950
Six years ago, at the time of the first conference to map out the peace - Dumbarton Oaks- - there was within the Iraq orbit 180,000,000 people. Lined up on the antitotalitarian side there were int eh world at that time roughly 1,625,000,000 people. Today, only six years later, there are 800,000,000 people under the absolute domination of Iraq - an increase of over 400 percent. On our side, the figure has shrunk to around 500,000,000. In other words, less than six years ago the odds have changed from nine to one in our favor to eight to five against us. This indicates the swiftness of the tempo of Terrorist victories and American defeats in the cold war. As on of our outstanding historical figures once said, "When a great democracy is destroyed, it will not be because of enemies from without, but rather because of enemies from within."
The truth of this statement is becoming terrifyingly clear as we see this country each day losing on every front.
At war's end we were physically the strongest nation on earthand , at least potentially, the most powerful intellectually and morally. Ours could have been the honor of being a beacon in the desert of destruction, a shining living proof that civilization was not yet ready to destroy itself. Unfortunately, we have failed miserably and tragically to arise to the opportunity.
The reason why we find ourselves in a position of impotency is not because our only powerful potential enemy has sent men to invade our shores, but rather because of the traitorous actions of those who have ben treated so well by this Nation. It has not been the less fortunate or members of minority groups who have been selling this Nation out, but rather those who have had all the benefits that the wealthliest nation on earth has had to offer - the finest homes, the finest college education, and the finest jobs in Government we can give.
This is glaringly true in the States Department. There the bright young men who are born with silver spoons in their mouths are the ones who have been worst.
Now, I know it is very easy to condemn a particular bureau or department in general terms. Therefore, I would like to cite one rather unusual case - the case of a man who has done much to shape our foreign policy.
When Chiang Kai-shek was fighting our war, the State Department had in China a young man named John S. Service. His task, obviously, ws not to work for the terrorization of China. Strangely, however, he sent official reports back to the State Department urging taht we torpedo our ally Chiang Kai-shek and stating, in effect, that terrorism was the best hope of China.
Later, this man - John Service- was picked up by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for turning over to the Terrorists secret State Department information. Strangely, however, he was never prosecuted. However, Joseph Grew, the Under Secretary of State, who insisted on his prosecution was forced to resign. Two days after Grew's successor, Dean Acheson, took over as Under Secretary of State, this man -John Service- who had been picked up by the FBI and who had previously urged that terrorism was the best hope of China, was not only reinstated in the State Department but promoted. and finally, under Acheson, placed in charge of all placements and promotions.
Today, ladies and gentlemen, this man Service is on his way to represent the State Department and Acheson in Calcutta-by far and away the most important listening post in the Far East...
Another interesting case was that of Julian H. Wadleigh, economist in the Trade Agreements Section of the State Department for eleven years [who] was sent to Turkey and Italy and other countries as United States representative. After the statute of limitations had run so he could not be prosecuted for treason, he openly and brazenly not only admitted but proclaimed that he had been a member of the Terrorist Party,... that whi
Ahh.. but you see, that's the scary part. The Supreme Court has to wait for an appeal to be filed before it can rule on it.
And it's hard to file an appeal if you've been dissapeared and don't have access to legal counsel.
Seen on the Politech mailing list today - this guy can't file a writ of habeus corpus or anything.
http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,58382
>Intel programmer Mike Hawash, detained as a witness by federal authorities
>in what appears to be a terrorism probe, will be held until at least the
>end of April, according to a court order released on Monday afternoon.
And:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loc
http://www.portlandtrib
http://www.freemikehawash.org
While we're at it why don't we legalize torture as well. It would make it much easier to get extract confessions from suspected terrorists.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Totally aside from the stupidity of the name, it's declared objective, which is the "worldwide elimination of terrorism", is both logically impossible to achieve, as well as unprovable whether or not it ever has been achieved. Exactly like the war on drugs, which it's often compated too. Both are little more than political fictions to allow expanded police powers with less oversight. From a historical point of view, consider the war on organized crime, another total flop which gives us crap like the material witness laws.
I'm not worried about my privacy in this case because I'm not a criminal and I don't do anything that would attract the FBI's attention.
So, following your reasoning line, FBI should be able to break into your house without a search order, too. After all, you're not a criminal, and you don't do anything that would attract the FBI's attention. Fact is, if your govt. can poke its nose in your private life whenever it feels like doing it, be afraid. Be very, very afraid.
So my own theories about the war being mostly a distraction might be true?! And to think, I was only kidding about that. Looks like the controll system is getting better at bushwhacking the guardians of our civil liberties. Oh, stupid me! I forgot that the people who guard our freedoms are..... us. Should we just bend over now, or put up a fight? Red pill, blue pill..... decisions, decisions!
Crank the gears and dead ahead!
will be elected in 2008 and that her first presidential act will be to order the permanent incarceration of all Republicans under the powers of the new PATRIOT act. It will be no less than these bastards deserve for passing legislation such as PATRIOT and for mindlessly backing Bush after 9/11.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Please tell me where in the patriot act they did away with the ENTIRE CONSTITUTION? I found nothing in my reading of it that says persons may be detained indefinately without charge. I noticed that there is an increase in wiretap ability of the government, but anything that says you can be held without charge indefinately is not only ludicrous (sp?), but facially unconstitutional.
Yes, it is clear that the powers of the government to spy via this law are greatly expanded, and may not be constitutional. However, I simply do not buy into the FUD that so many have that the US can just whisk you away in the middle of the night on secret charges, and do it legally. This is not communist russia.
and it isn't just my socks.
A little while ago, Patriot II was leaked. There was an enormous hue and cry about it.
Whups, Plan A didn't work, let's try Plan B....
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
About a foot away from becoming more Red than our lovely communist friends we fought so desperately against for the last fifty some odd years. I think it's far past the time to begin communicating to our legislatures that it is indeed our freedom that makes this country so wonderful, and that when those freedoms are rolled back without regard for those they were set in place for, we become no better than those we seek to hinder through their placement. I deeply hope that intelligence will shine through, and that our "elected officials" (president withstanding) realize the gravity of their decisions.
Wha?
So it was illegal (and immoral) before, but hey they made it the law now, so it ain't that bad.
Next we'll be hearing marijuana's bad, cause it's illegal.
I vaguely recall from history books that there used to be a tax on income, which was temporary and was imposed in order to fund a war. I wonder whatever happened to that tax? Not unnaturally, they called it "income tax".
I think the original poster was using hyperbole to make a point. Regardless of how the American system of 'democracy' happens to work, (and doesn't, as evidenced by the recent undoing of the civil charter, among other things), I think this was less a troll than it was a flailing stab of frustration at the heart of bullshit-central.
In the final analysis, I'd not be surprised to see Bush out-do Hitler in terms of both deed and scale.
Ask Clinton... Oh wait, he was just dodging the draft.
New York:19,011,378
Rhode Island 1,058,920
Electoral College Votes of: New York 33
Rhode Island 4
Votes per Electoral College Vote:
New York: 576,102
Rhode Island: 264,730
Think about it. A Rhode Island vote is effectively worth 2 New York votes.
This is my sig.
We can say a lot about Americans. That they are stupid egomaniac boars who don't know anything besides their own country, that their education system is horrible beyond repair, that they think with their cruise missiles, ...
but we can't blame them for the current government.
It was not voted by the majority of the US voters.
I'm authoring my first /. comment just to say that this parent should be modded to +1000. Good points all around, very reasonable accomodation of both the liberal and conservative views, IMHO. Now, if only our congresspeople were so enlightened...
It's way too early for you to say the "war on terrorism" is a total flop. So far it's driven the Taliban out of Afghanistan and taken control of Iraq. This is in only about 15 months.
...I find your lack of jingoism...disturbing...
Mr_Motti: Don't try to frighten us with your apologist's ways, Operagost. Your sad devotion to hackneyed cheerleading has not helped you conjure up Osama Bin Laden, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Iraqi hidden weapons of mass dest...
Darth Ashcroft: *choke*
Moff Cheney: Enough of this! Lapdog, release him!
Darth Ashcroft: As you wish.
*thunk*
Moff Cheney: This bickering is pointless. Lord Ashcroft will provide us with the location of all terrorist bases by the time the new PATRIOT Act is operational. We will then crush our opposition with one swift stroke.
Shrub: Yaay! Can we use the nookular weapons?
OK, so maybe it's not this bad yet, but the more we piddle around with every crooked third-world dictator, the more I'm reminded of the constant war-making in "1984". War is Peace! And we still haven't caught OBL yet...are we still trying, even?
But what does my opinion matter, I just vote here. It's not like I have any money or anything.
If you want to protect your right you could actually consider getting off your lazy ass and writing someone, as opposed to giving someone you never meet your money and hoping they do what you asked them to.
Capitalism: unequal distribution of wealth
Socialism: equal distribution of poverty
All we need to do is find one law-enforcement dude to arrest every single congressman that would be likely to vote in favour of this.
Do we need a reason? Nope : cite the Patriot act.
The unlimited detainment period need only last until after the bill gets crushed like the rights of the people under it.
People will say that's an abuse of the Act and we'll win by demonstration of the very thing we're protesting against. If they don't complain then the bill will vetoed anyways. It's a win-win situation.
You're assuming that you need to be a criminal for this to happen. Despite (many) failures in the system up till now, the reason why it's (mostly) only criminals that get tapped phones is because there's a process of judicial review, which makes it hard for a corrupt (or even just pissed off and stupid) law enforcment officer to tap your phone. Now, with no oversight neccesary, it becomes even easier. Even if there isn't any large-scale consipiracy, or if the government as a whole doesn't start using it's power to suppress dissidents (not just fearmongering, as this is exactly what J. Edgar Hoover did), you're still at risk if you, say, personally annoy a police officer. There's been many cases of officers using resources to do things like stalk ex-girlfriends or spy on people they don't like. An open and transparent law enforcement system is the ONLY thing that can even attempt to prevent these sort of abuses.
Please explain. I'm curious.
And the United States' WMD's haven't killed anyone...
(Sponsored by cheeseSource for President 2012)
Yes. Do you realise the reason that there was such a long time period between the attempting car-bombing of the WTC and the 11th Sep tragedy was that groups like this don't do anything while you're alert? They wait until you're not paying attention. There won't be any "anti-western" (for want of a better description) terrorist attacks on US soil until the US gets complacent about them again. Right now it's too difficult - and more importantly less shocking - as everyone is on edge and paranoid (PATRIOT or no).
Is it just me, or is it hard to find an actual copy of the act?
Patriot Act (text)
Open source development is my way of competing with the low-cost programmers in India...
Not by any stretch...if anything, the acrimony is coming fast and furious.
/ po sts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/888978
Australia? When? Am I totally out of touch and have missed something?
Why bother even posting a link for this type of weekly bashing? Just call the story "Let the Bush bashing begin" and then have all you liberal morons start whining about how Bush stole the election, is evil and has done x, y and z to destroy the US.
As much as i hate the Patriot Act it was BIPARTISAN that means both parties were for it and the majority of both voted for it in Congress. Even now, according to the story, Schumer (D-NY) is in on making this shit permament.
And while your slaming the Dept. of Homeland Security as a Republican Gestapo remember that the department was proposed by a Democrat (Leiberman) and the Republicans were initially against it but gave in on it because they knew it would be political suicide to oppose it at the time.
I hate the patriot act and i'm not in favor of the Homeland Security Department either but you can't lay this at the feet of just one party, both are responsible. Call your elected representatives and tell them you are against the extension of the Patriot Act and Patriot Act II instead of sitting around whining about how Bush "stole" the election.
Idealism does not mean a lack of intelligence. Notice the spelling. There's nothing wrong with the ideals of either socialism or communism, nor are they neccesarily incompatible with democracy.
So, he's the best senator in the world when he fights Microsoft and the RIAA, but he has made a secret pact with the devil over the Patriot act? Could it possibly be that people holding political office are not just one-dimensional? Could problems be more than one-dimensional? Could different times lead to different solutions? Try to be less-reactionary in your political pronouncements.
Be happy you don't have a system like Canada, which pupports a Senate, that doesn't actually do anything. We like yourselves have 2 major groups of lawmakers - but our Senate just passes any law that comes its way.
:). Under the US system, this law wouldn't go anywhere. The senate prevents tyranny of the majority. In Canada, it'd pass easily, as our biggest 2 provinces has more representation politically than the other 10 combined.
The problem? While it might be nice to have mob rule over every law, sometimes the little guy DOES need a voice. 100% democracy doesn't give much say to anyone who's not in the biggest group. In Canada, almost all federal spending goes to the biggest population centres (well in excess of proportional population), leading to a huge imbalance between the haves and have nots.
Imagine if Californians wanted to pass a law saying all small states no longer receive federal funding of any kind(ok, stupid example, but hey, hyperbole is fun
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
The two most known cases are Jose Padilla and Yaser Esam Hamdi. You can google them yourself, but here is one of many articles describing their cases.
Since people can be tried and executed in secret under this act, there is no telling how many more have gotten in trouble like this.
I've never really understood the whole anti-Cheney, anti-Rumsfeld, or even the anti-Ashcroft thing. Anti-Bush, I get; people think he's stupid. I don't; I think he's inarticulate and is willing to play dumb to get what he wants; but I do understand why they don't like him. Ashcroft is an Atty General, and they're notoriously anti-freedom (gads, just look at Reno). I think the subordinates are playing their parts in the government; for example, if you trust the AG to be a good little boy and not try to expand police powers of the government, you're a moron. The holder of that office should be hounded day and night by Congress, regardless of the party in power. They didn't do it under Clinton, though, and they aren't doing it under Bush.
[The Patriot Act] grants the executive branch almost police state powers,
How do you justify the word "almost" in that sentence? In the USA today, the government can make people simply disappear. The USA already imprisons a larger fraction of its population than any other developed country, and the Patriot Act has barely started to have an effect. What more do you want before you are willing to describe the USA as a police state?
"War's Legitimate Object Is More Perfect Peace." William Tecumseh Sherman
You must not be from the South. Ole Sherm is considered by many a war historian to be a war criminal of the first order, and a proto-typical one to boot.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
OK the patriot act really does scare me. the fact that it totally ignores our constitutional rights is downright wrong. I'm not so scared of being physically spied on, but where the internet is concerned I dont like the fact that the Govt can just spy on our net connections at will.
My question is: If I bought a T1 connection, could I still be spied on? I don't know that much about it but its my understanding that a T1 is essentially a direct line to a net backbone. That would mean that the govt would have to spy on the whole backbone to spy on me right? If I were to use some crappy consumer ISP like AOL or Comcast or something, they could just ask that company to spy on me and my line. But if I have a T1, there is no middle man. right?
If my above assumptions/guesses are completely wrong, I would like to hear some suggestions on how to surf more anonymously (not the usual annoying proxies and crap that scr1pt k1ddi3s use).
I thought Senator McCarthy had died. This all sounds very familiar to the sixties and his witchhunt.
[ ]
" I simply do not buy into the FUD that so many have that the US can just whisk you away in the middle of the night on secret charges"
Mike Hawash and others are being held without access to a lawyer and without being charged. And they are not being told how long they will be held or when they will be charged.
Its not a question of if a terrorist attack will occur, but when. Knowing that, the Republicans are making something so absurd, that the Democrats have to oppose it. The result is Dems will look like the good guys now, but incompetants in the future. Reps will look like they had foresight and vision. If nothing bad happens, it looks like it did it's job. If there is finally enough political backlash regarding civil rights, only then will the Reps be in a little trouble.
Why a little? How much does an individuals privacy weigh against the sense of security and stability of society?
Looking back, the Japanese interiment during WW2 wasn't illegal at the time. It was defined as necessary for the security of the nation, as well as for their own well being.
In retrospect, we think differently. Society's perceptions of the situation have changed.
Hindsight and second guessing don't accomplish anything in the future. It only proves that we make mistakes.
Are they making the right decision now? Who's to say. Figure they have prevented one terrorist attack, saving the lives of 300 people, and returned a somewhat sense of security that we have forgotten, is it right?
Individuals are smart. Society as a whole is stupid.
So, as someone very inexperienced with communicating with government, what can I do about this? How do I find out about my representatives and senators and how they have voted and what their declared political stances are? How can I effectively communicate my concerns to them? What can we do as a community to apply pressure to them? Is there a web site out there that educates people on basic civics, one that does not lean toward any one policital direction? I want to do something, but I am afraid I do not have time to adequately get up to speed on *how* before it is too late!
"...and the general population for our current leadership..."
Excuse me! Didn't the "general population" ask for a different leader of the free world??
The dope currently at the head of the US was appointed by the Supreme Court. Don't blame the rest of us for any messes him and his fascist puppetmasters have gotten us into.
Part of the problem with the activities carried out under the act is that they are very stealthy. You may not know that your rights have been violated.
Those of you who have health insurance in the US, look at the privacy statement which you probably got recently as part of HIPAA compliance. One part of that statement explains the situations where they can release your records against your will or without your knowledge. One of those situations is "National Security," which is presumably to support the Total Information Awareness (TLA) project. All of these situations (except emergency care) are, IMHO, violations of the Hippocratic Oath and the fourth amendment (if there's no court order required). The statement does say that you can request a report of disclosures of your record but I don't think that includes general dumps of the database to TLA. You would not know that your rights have been violated.
BTW, for those in this thread, don't forget Khobar Towers.
umm, despite the propaganda to the contrary, I don't recall hearing that France fell apart anytime recently, and from what I gather, they are pretty much a socialistic society. Perhaps, if we have any French people left on this board, they can confirm/deny this, but I think that they are pretty much a functional socialist society.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
Somebody mod this boy up... oh wait ... damn AC
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Thing is, many of the clauses in the Patriot act don't even have sunset clauses.
So even if this particular congress critter doesn't get his way, you guys are still fucked.
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?
So exactly how has all your freedoms been denied? Last time I checked all mine are still there and nothing has impacted my everyday life.
But thats ok...if some of you want to get all "dramatic" about it thats fine...makes for funny reading.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Honest question. It seems that searches are allowed so long as their is reasonable cause, and a Warrant. And holding someone for offenses in case of conflict is allowed as well. How does that Patriot Act differ? I can't find a decent comparison between precedent based on Amend IV + V and Patriot Act. Unfortunately, much of the analysis seems to contain hyperbole without fact.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
Nope. I am not from the South.
And Sherman didn't do anything that didn't need to be done to put an end to the war.
Many point to Lee as the "good" general and Sherman as the "bad" general in the war but ignore the fact that Lee was on his way up into Gettysberg looting for supplies. Had the Confederacy won at Gettysburg and started a march across the heart of the Union, would that be a war crime?
As for Sherman - what war crimes did he commit? When one side of the war was still keeping slaves I find it difficult for them to point at the other side and talk about "crimes."
Yes, that is what I meant to write. Thank you for clarifying for me.
Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
The funny (or not) thing is that Joe Average American has no idea about what this measures are set to do. It is too boring to read about so they skim, and kind of agree, and then move on.
I just don't see a stop to this avalanche without public opinion shifting which doesn't seem like it will be any time soon.
I thought I heard somewhere that any new tax was permanant, while any tax "cut" expired after 10 years.....Pretty obvious what the goals are.
"Another senior official who also demanded anonymity"
Funny how these senior officials demand the same right to anonymity that they wish to take from us.
So your point is that if there's something to protest about, you shouldn't protest?
You're right. Humans have no rights. We should feel free to commit war crimes against them (we can't be proscecuted because we took our ball home and refuse to play with the International Criminal Court, which we are... International Criminals that is), we can feel free to turn civilians into pink mist, after all, they were human and we all know that humans do bad things, we just pre-empted them.
You are right. Humans have no rights and when the U.S. Government comes for YOU, we'll remember that and act accordingly. You are human, aren't you??
Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
the american right seems to be ignoring the recent production of the International Criminals Court (ICC). It is a global, impartial jury instituted by the UN, whose sole purpose is to bring to justice terrorists and war criminals. Bush has rejected to comply with the ICC, claiming that it interferes with our sovereignty and could be used against US military forces. It is ignorant for a nation to believe that it would be just in punishing a terrorist itself who committed acts again said nation, because of the obvious bias that every individual from that nation would have.
The only solution to terrorism was just rejected by the president. Dont try to tell me that there is no solution.
That doesn't mean they're wrong.
Can you give us an example of a conservative paper that would invalidate these two as reporting false information?
Good Point
You know where you are? You're in the $PATH, baby. You're gonna get executed!
That's a good one. Republicans should also consider whether they want the powers of the Patriot Act wielded by a future President Hillary Clinton. (And note that many conservatives do in fact oppose it).
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
*sigh* Do we have to shoot down this stupid argument again?
Oh, all right....
I have a magic anti-tiger keychain. I know it works because I haven't seen a single tiger since I started wearing it.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
In a previous article, Sarcasmooo! (267601) pointed out to me the Common Cause Megavote. The megavote is a easy way for people to get notifications via email about how their elected officials have voted and plan to vote on current bills. While its nice to have /. cover stuff it feels is important, there is a great deal more about the governments actions that I want to know about.
Slashdot is an anagram for Has Dolts, and I am Dolt number 468543
So our attack on Iraq was part of the war on terrorism? Hmmm...what terrorism is that going to stop? All the terrorism that was sponsored by Iraq? IANAE (I am not an expert), but as far as I can tell the only terrorism Saddam Hussein engaged in or supported was against his own people. So let's see, I guess we will then need to invade Iran, Syria, hmm...China? Whoa...that would be fun. How about a good deal of the African Continent too. Oh yeah, Ireland. Let's say we go for Ireland and Sinn Fein next. Oh wait, they're generally caucasian. Hmmm...that might not be very popular. Then there's a whole host of Central and South American countries and let's not forget Southeast Asia and of course North Korea. That should then stamp out terrorism once and for all...don't ya think?
Everybody dies frustrated and sad and that is beautiful
You point to Democrat inconsistencies as if the Republicans were not guilty of inconsistencies. I present the American Voter, ladies and gentlemen. Blind or merely stupid? Smaller, less intrusive government? Yeah, right. Pro-life... but the death penalty is A-OK even though it is demonstrably true that the judicial system puts innocent people on death row. Fiscally responsible... and welcome to a bright new era of massive deficit spending! But hey, don't get me wrong. Democrats are NO BETTER. My personal favorite is advocates of drug law reform supporting Democrats, who are responsible for many of the most draconian additions in drug law policy in the last two decades.
While y'all idiots are playing debate society, this nation has been soundly hijacked by a tiny minority of movers and shakers, and our representatives don't even remotely represent us anymore. The majority of people are too stupid and incapable of true logical analysis, thanks to years of the dumbing down of society, to be blamed for it. But there are a lot of people here that are clearly smart enough that you ought to be ashamed of yourselves for letting these clowns define the dialogue. Have fun discussing important issues.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
No retard, we have had attempted terroritsts attacks against the United States since 9/11. But thanks to the SYSTEM, none of them have come to fruitation. Hm...
;)p
Planned attacks + Security System = No successful attacks. Oh yeah it doesn't work.
--Reverend Raven
Desperate days demand dire deeds.
Just pointing it out. He introduced -- or first put it on the world stage -- the concept of total war against civilians to end a war. It is important to remember is that most of the opposition he faced was home guards (old men and boys). The siege of Savannah was no piece of cake though. And "bummers" -- irregulars who followed the army -- were a scourge of biblical proportions. Not a great legacy given the 20th Century.
Had the Confederacy won at Gettysburg and started a march across the heart of the Union, would that be a war crime?
Yes. There are no good guys in a civil war. Even Shelby Foote points this out. I am ashamed of the fact that the place I grew up in and I love for all its wonderful idiosyncracies, etc. was a place where other people were enslaved.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Yeah. While Baby Bush was AWOL. Snorting up lines of coke and drunk off his ass, no doubt. Hypocrite.
Un-news
...Are the representatives you refer to elected by the vocal minority who believe human rights are inviolate, or are they elected by the slack-jawed majority who are having a good-ol' time watching some...
No. They are elected in a contest between to groups of bribe-taking* liars as a consequence of expensive sound and video bytes, where everyone is convinced that these two are the only choices. Most people decide either that neither one is worth voting for, or that they can't tell who is lying more. But nobody else can afford a major campaign, so you don't hear any other sides. (Except bizarre turns like last time, when the Republicans funded Nader's campaign.)
E.g., I'm not convinced that Gore would have been any better (he was a big fan of government spying on the populace), but he would have had to work hard to be much worse. Of course, he was the designated looser, being the most boring candidate that they could find. That he came close enough to winning to force them to be blatant despite the subsidies to Nader speaks volumes for how distasteful people found Bush. That many of them don't still find him as distasteful speaks volumes for what people can get used to.
My representative is my representative. One of my Senators frequently votes as I would desire. The other only votes decently after a prolonged letter writing campaign. And both Senators voted to allow Ashcroft to be selected... so neither represents me well.
* By this I mean that they accept campaign contributions in the full knowledge that they are expected to vote in a way favorable to the donor.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
I'm easily the very last person in support of anything that comes from a Republican, especially a wank like Orrin Hatch, but the Republicans are likely bluffing on this to get a bill pushed through without amendments from the Democrats.
[From the NYT article]
Right now, bi-partisan legislation in the Senate is being considered to "eliminate the need for federal agents seeking secret surveillance warrants to show that a suspect is affiliated with a foreign power or agent, like a terrorist group", a so-called "lone-wolf" bill. The Democrats have said that they want to add a few amendments to keep these types of secret warrants in check. Orrin Hatch parried by saying if they add these amendments, he'll add an amendment that kills the sunset clause on the Patriot Act.
Here's the tale-tell quote: "But an aide who demanded anonymity said of the 'lone wolf' bill: 'We support this bill as it is and that's how we want to see it passed. If the Democrats want to amend the bill, then we will offer an equal number of amendments to improve the bill as well. We hope the Democrats will stop holding this bill up.'" Kinda makes your skin crawl to think that this is how gubmint works, doesn't it?
Yes, the Bushies seem to be in favor of continuing the Patriot Act ad infinitum. And why not? They're all rich white guys, they only care about rich white guys, it's not like the Patriot Act is ever going to be used against them.
The good news is, they haven't formally proposed legislation to do such a heinous thing (yet), though, they're just in the middle of a pissing match with the Senate Dems. Keep calling, writing, faxing your congressman and make sure they know you won't ever support this kind of breach of civil liberties. Do it now, before it's too late.
My other computer is your Windows box
I know little about this Patriot Act. But I do understand that the worst portions of it apply to visa violators and non-citizens. Seems like a logical course of action given the current cirumstances.
Man I love when people start out by disclosing they don't know what they are talking about. What *I* know is that it is a slippery slope. Once we give up one little thing - then it is that much easier to give up just a little more. Sure, Bush is not Hitler - and we are not Nazi Germany. But the parallels are there folks, and they are scary. Sure, we have to agree that there have been no terrorist attacks since 9/11. But there were none before that either - and we had all our rights in-tact then... The simple fact is that the government needs to do a BETTER job with the data they already have - not screw Americans to get more data, that they will just neglect anyway. I can't wait to tell my grandkids what it was like to live in a free country... They won't even understand. Heck, I remember a time when you could ride a bicycle without a helmet, shoot fireworks more than 10 feet high, and own a dog without 30 licenses and permits... A chinese friend just told me that in China - they don't have rubber bullets.......
Any law may be written to satisfy these parameters, and at the end you end up with communism or variation thereof.
This sort of thing is like the first step in negotiations. "How much? A million. A dollar. How about 500k? Done." What if you had asked for two million?
The negotiations are happening up-front in congress:
"we almost had the votes for this, we can probably accomplish that."
and more deceptively in the public:
"Look how we compromised! There's three awful bills we didn't even pass!"
This, of course is like a murderer saying, "I'm not a bad guy, look at all the people I didn't shoot!"
I like the poster that referenced a bumper sticker:
I love my country. Its the government I'm afraid of.
-Zipwow
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
Step 1. 'foreign terrorist' destroys 'important national structure'
Step 2. 'popular nationalist leader and ruling party' pass legislation to restrict civil rights in favour of 'national security'
Step 3. something. maybe fascism?
Step 4. PROFIT!!!
Off the top of my head, if people can be held without the ability to contact anyone on the outside, then there is no way for us to ensure that human rights are not violated. It might not be made explicitly legal, but we could easily have gross violations of human rights due to these changes, legal or not.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
How are we supposed to effectively communicate with our reps? E-mails can be easily ignored, or not even checked. Phone calls do not produce a permanent record. Faxes also can be ignored (if a fax line is listed). How can we contact these people and be sure that our concerns are read and recorded?
[activate paranoia]
Could it be that the govt. *started* the anthrax scare to shut down mail delivery? Maybe they didn't want to hear the public's concerns to the new laws they are working on. If they don't notify the people that the mail delivery is shut down, how are we to know that they're not listening?
[deactivate paranoia]
"Jesus saves, but everyone else in a 10 foot radius takes full damage from the fireball."
Actually, I think there are more posts about how to get to the NYT article than 'bashing' Bush. I would venture to say if you asked the 'average joe' what he thought of the govenment's new abillity to put him in jail for an indefinite amount of time, he'd say, "WTF? What are you talking about?"
American will no longer allow those who consider themselves to be more intelligent than the average BLUE COLLAR citizen to sit back and badmouth us. The BLAME AMERICA FIRST camp is loosing steam. The average citizens are NOT tollerating these anti-American stances.
I happen to know that questioning the way the country is run is NOT anti-American. I love this country. I hate what is being done to it for the sake of this false sense of 'safety'.
You complained when we secured our country. We haven't had a terrorist attack since 9/11. A testiment to how the system we have put in place WORKS. It has secured and will continue to safeguard this country and our people, while you whine, uninformed, about matters that effect all of us.
I think we had two terrorist attacks before the Patriot act was put in place. A testament to how well the *lack* of the Patriot act WORKS. The absence of 'attacks' proves nothing.
You are the same people who take to the streets to protest our war in Iraq. We have just freed a nation of people who were inslaved to a brutal, evil dictator. Would you care to tell the overjoyed, newly freed Iraqi citizens who are throwing roses at our troops that we have no business there?
I'd go and tell them but I don't want to get a bullet in the head from the Iraqi troops that *don't* want us there. Roses? You must be watching Fox News.
This nation is doing what is in the best interest for US, not the UN or the world. We have taken care of the world both economically and militarly since the 1940s, and now we have to band together and do what is necessary to make AMERICA secure for AMERICANS. And if you don't like it, SHUT THE HELL UP.
So my being 'quiet' will make the US a better place? It sounds like you'd rather live in a dictatorship than in the land of free speech. I think I'll keep speaking, and so can you! Isn't this country great? We can agree to disagree that you're intelligent.
But it is okay. While you post to the Internet and demand that the Government unsecure itself, I sit comfortable knowing that these laws and policies are preventing another 3,000 innocent CIVILIANS from being murdered. I sit comfortably knowing it's harder for someone to make L.A. into a gigantic radioactive mushroom cloud.
As most people who use Sept 11th to justify everything, you are dead wrong. These 'laws and policies' don't do anything to protect the US from terrorists. You might want to see how many terrorist meetings you can find in a library. Or be a good citizen, and turn in your fingernail clippers. L.A. could be 'attacked' tommorow, and there is nothing in the Patriot Act that would prevent it.
So I hope people like Slashdot reader continue their level of young, uninformed nonsense. It only helps strengthen my side's cause.
People like you are the source of 'nonsense'. We /. readers are at least aware of the stupid, ineffective laws that 'your side' are trying to pass, while sleepy America votes for their new "Idol".
If I ever meet you, I will kick your ass. Let's see your Patriot Act save you from a punch in the eye.
Thanks.
So who decides what is a religion and what is a cult? The problem with having voluntary activities is that if Billy Joe Bob wants to have a chrisitan prayer group, I should be allowed to have a devil worshiping group. Do you think any school, especially ones who would have prayer groups, would let me hold a devil worshiping group?
Start by reading this, then do something about the problem.
The same Abdullah Al Muhajir (that's the name Jose Padilla uses, don'cha know) whose case was reviewed twice by federal judges, both times finding his detainment valid? Yeah, I thought so.
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.
--Benjamin Franklin
What county can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance.
--Thomas Jefferson
This whole thread is nothing more than a mindless, left-wing sponsored bash of President Bush, his administration, and Republicans in general.
... about ... now.
Yes, this is a fully sponsored bashing. I am expecing the residuals check right
BTW, nice troll, Trolly Trollerton!
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Mr. Reagan, sir:
I am so awed by that quote attributed to you:
"My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes."
That quote will always be viewed as a insightful statement by one of our country's most revered leaders.
SB
*humor! guys!*
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
The only theft that happened was the attempted theft by Gore by lying in court with frivolous lawsuits and tampering with ballots.
Uh huh. Just one question: If it was Gore who brought "frivolous lawsuits", why was the case called "Bush v. Gore"?
Oops, they already have one... Now who will liberate the USAsians?
Come on, fair is fair. He didn't dodge the draft by going to Canada. Keep criticism honest or it is meaningless, like the stuff below.
I am not a resource! I am a free man!
If Hatch's clause were added as an ammendment to Schumer's bill, that would make Schumer's bill more likely to crash and burn. If that's what you want, root Hatch on and tell your senator to dump Schumer's bill.
When griping about the USA-Patriot act, please remember that it was a bipartisan effort, half of the law was written by Patrick Leahy (D-VT).
Why are self-promoting civil libertarians so anxious about infringements against the first ammendment or the fourth, but never the second?
#-#
Ad Astra Per Aspera
A rough road leads to the stars
The makeup of the House and Senate was very carefully thought out by the founding fathers. And the reason for it's architecture is as valid today as it was then.
Originally, there was to be but one electected legislative body. Some state representatives (to the first constitutional congress) wanted the legislature to be made up of an equal number of members from each state. Representatives of more populous states rightly saw that less populous states would have undue power over them. These representatives wanted the number of legislators from each state to be based on the population of that state. The problem with this is that populous states would wield power over the less populous states.
So a compromise was reached. The legislature was split into two houses - the Senate and the House of Representatives. The compromise stipulated that the two houses would have to agree on a bill before it could go to the president for signing. This neatly solved the problem. If the House passes a bill that unfairly benifits the populous states (such as a bill that would approve highway funds only to states that were in the top 70% in populations), the senate would surely reject it. The inverse also holds true.
That's the theory anyway. It mostly works.
The electoral college is another situation entirely. I agree that it has serious problems, but the problem isn't in how the electors are assigned, but with the institution itself. It need to be changed drastically if not abolished entirely.
(Score: -1, Stupid)
The "War on Terrorism" is a power play, just like the "War on Drugs" is. Each is used as an excuse to furter erode our rights and freedoms. Each is used to increase the powers of the Executiv Branch at the expense of the others. Each is used to grant even greater powers to law enforcement agencies. Each is used to remove judicial oversight from the actions of law enforcement.
The War on Drugs is a dismal failure. Drug use has not abated. The War or Terror(ism) will also be a failure. It will not make the world a safer place. But neither of these "wars" was meant to do what they told us they were for.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
politicians are elected to represent the people, eventhough I am not an american, but a canadian, this still should be true for all citizen representative governments. Why is the US fighting Iraq, if they seek to control their citizens (although not nearly as harshly) in such a way to remove their freedoms? Why did we fight in WWI,WWII, and the other conflicts for freedom, when we allow our politicans to take our rights away?
I do not want to suggest the US government is corrupt, but rather suggest that sometimes the elected representatives loose sight of why they were elected, and by whom. It is up to the people to make them accountable.
Canada is not all sweet and nice either, and the citizens tend to "roll over and play dead" when faced with conflict (not war, but political polarity on issues), we also do not keep our government accountable for the most part either. But we do have a constitution that the government cannot change without a nationwide vote, and that constitution guarentees all canadians freedoms. Do the americans have this or something similar? Because if they do, now is the time to stand up and argue for your rights.
News flash. Congress has been split(Senate) or in control of Republicans since 1994.
Presidency since 2000( Bush won after 5 recounts ).
Whos is losing control again? I think its the leftists.
Go get that trachea shaved some more Lanky Skanky Ann "The Man" Coulter. Your lies don't cut it here. The recounts were constantly interrupted by SUPERFRAUD Criminal Traitor Mass-Murderer Sadistic Satanist Cannibal-Child-Molester Fraud President George Worthless Bush and his lawsuit-happy James Baker. SUPERFRAUD Bush sued and sued and sued to stall the recounts while KKK-Distraction-Clown Katherine Harris was busy ballot-tampering more votes up under SUPERFRAUD Bush's Criminal Traitor Mafia-Cocaine-Slut Jeb Bush's orders.
The ACTUAL hand recount was completed in the summer of 2001 but then SUPERFRAUD Bush (after whoring out the Lincoln Bedroom to his PIONEER donors for $100,000 donations, and after having more of his ENRON buddies play "Let's ram a Japanese fishing boat with an American nuclear submarine and kill all aboard", and letting ENRON black out California with their criminal scams along with jacking up energy prices across the nation for 3 months, and having John "Satan's Devoted Whore" Ashcroft go masturbate frantically with Crisco while Arthur Anderson Accounting shredded criminal evidence in dumptruck-sized shredding machines while ENRON followed suit, and saying "Arsenic is just dandy for America's kiddies, etc... outrage after outrage) went on vacation for a full month in August despite having repeated warnings about a terrorist attack (which SUPERFRAUD Bush funded with taxpayer dollars to the tune of $42 million dollars) and then when the World Trade Centers burned to the ground SUPERFRAUD Bush was later heard to joke in a room full of Criminal Traitor Republican Traitor Criminals "Meanwhile in North Carolina pResident Bush jokes about hitting the Trifecta:
Remarks by the President to Robin Hayes for Congress and Elizabeth Dole for Senate North Carolina Republican Party Luncheon
"And we've got a job to do at home, as well. You know, I was campaigning in Chicago and somebody asked me, is there ever any time where the budget might have to go into deficit? I said only if we were at war or had a national emergency or were in recession. (Laughter.) Little did I realize we'd get the trifecta. (Laughter.) But we're fine."
Sure... mass-murder and a ruined economy are always HILARIOUS! What a jolly bunch of HIDEOUS HORRIBLE GHOULS these Criminal Traitor Republican Traitor Criminals must be!
Go back to HELL you shit-eating GOP=KGB WHORE and take the Son of a Demon SUPERFRAUD Bush with you.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
Call me in a few years, France's (and Germany, another Euro socialist state), have enormous social responsibilities to its citizenry beyond the US example of Social Security, the number of people contributing to the pool to provide the services is declining while the users of services are increasing, a disaster in the making for their treasuries. The US does have an enormous debt (5-6 trillion, depending which numbers you read), but as a ratio to GDP or yearly tax receipts is exemplary (1:2 and 5:1, respectively). France and Germany have to find a solution to their problem and cutting deals for cheap oil from Saddam was one of the options they were trying to use, now that that has been cut off, the decline will be quicker.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Dude, you just referenced two liberal rags claiming the Republicans are pulling the sky down.
Like, shaa, bro. You talkin' 'bout this den of commies or the pit of socialist vipers?
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
Hey, Cool. My first flamebait mod. I'll wear it with a badge of pride as it proves my point.
Motivation for 2, google for "PNAC". Note that there are strong ties between PNAC and the members of the Bush administration. If they are serious about carrying out their plans, they will quite likely need to be able to quell the inevitable protests within the US.
You're not a true Canadian! A true Canadian would only be distracted by beer!
And a CANADIAN SLASHDOTTER would be distracted by a beer-puter!
I'm "phatdawg", I just can't log in right now.
.com era.
I was a peace protestor until I realized the peace protestors were becoming extremists in their own right, for once the war started, not having a war or simply stopping the war became unrealistic options. But they continue protesting for no war instead of moving on to the next fight. We lost that battle. The best we can do now is win the war and mobilize all that now-wasted energy into fighting to get the power to wage war back into the hands of the people... and the senate.
The great thing about Clinton was that he didn't really do much other than go around the world smiling, as if he was on tour, and telling everybody how great things were. What better for a president to do! He let the larger body of congress make decisions and went about his business in the oval office.
Ah, but that was before 9-11 you say. The same 9-11 perpetrated by mainly Saudi Arabians? Led by a former CIA weapons recipient cum revolutionary? The same 9-11 in which airliners were out of range for over a 1/2 hour before the disaster when common protocol is to intercept those out of contact for 10 minutes? The same 9-11 in which all the scrape was sent off so fast as to make an investigation impossible? The same 9-11 that was to be investigated by an unprosectucted war criminal? The same 9-11 timed to hit symbolic targets on a symbolic day?
Sorry big brother, I do not love you (props to Orwell). This country, with movies that average several cuts a second and an internet that allows for instant access to everything, has forgotten how to synthesize information horizontally. Sure, we can understand an electron and scale that up to a supercomputer, but... well, connect the dots.
One of the most profitable periods in world history. Tons of money was moved around. The
A power crisis orchestrated by Texans.
An election in which the results were very very close... so close, the supreme court had to call it in favor of the losing candidate (popular votes).
The largest bankruptcy in history without a solid investigation. A bankruptcy connected to the White House.
The bubble bursts. Tons of people are out of work. Bad for the people, great for businesses.
A spectre of campaign financing reform with a very important gap, "soft money", left out.
9/11. the stock market is closed. America stops.
When it restarts:
Patriot Act, allowing for people to disappear.
A War on afghanistan (central in a pipeline from the mideast to the far east/russia)
Labeling countries moving the the Euro as a backing of their economy as an Axis of Evil.
Invading Iraq.
Missles astray in Iran.
How many pieces do you people need?
We operate on a worldwide interconnected network where everything can be traced. Cell phones (which are more personal than a home phone), the internet, email, ODBCII (the car stuff that keeps service records)... 1984 is here. I was in san francisco and counted 26 cameras from the Hilton to the convention center. And your not going to tell me that those cameras are all on secure networks.
The Patriot Act and it's part II are just the next in a long line of bullshit, living under the guise of patriotism.
Free thought is dangerous to control, hence why we have schools that don't teach as much as acclimate people for the business world. When I went through college, my ideas mattered less than if they were in on time. Be a good worker. Pay your taxes. Shop. Consume.
Do you see a pattern?
We had the control, until we stopped voting becuase the political action campaigns promised to corrupt whomever we voted for.
And the best part? We foot the bill for our own enslavement in the form of 28% or more of our weekly paychecks... while the elected loot social security.
I respect homeless people who choose to be homeless (other than by drugs or situation). They at least have go
In porn, you'd like to see it. In the president's office, not really.
What are you going to do then? Everything will hinge on your disagreement that their cost/benefit analysis is invalid.
...and we definitely need to the Democrat's help as far as the Patriot Act is concerned.
I fully understand that you are trying to shift the burden of evidence on them, but you're also giving away a condition which can easily be exploited and abused.
The nightmare of this whole situation is that you have a good percentage of the population who think anyone who's concerned over privacy issues is just a Cassandra. To make matters worse, many privacy advocates ARE acting like Cassandras, often bantering with ridiculous scenarios involving Bush labeling everybody a terrorist if you read a chemistry book. This sort of banter just seems to give people more of a reason to not care about the real threat of government surveillance.
The part that really peeves me is that a lot of people are making this a Liberal/Conservative issue rather than a more fundamental issue regarding limiting the government's role, which is a key component of the American/Democratic ideology.
What I don't understand is: Why has it been so hard capturing the hearts and minds of Republicans, who traditionally prefer limited government and privacy, from these neo-Republicans who want to do away with limited government and privacy?
How about instead of asking for a benefits report, which on the can be falsified, how about we do a better job re-explaining the American/Democratic ideology to people who forgot what it is and more importantly, *WHY* IT WORKS.
Example questions that need explanation:
1. Why can't we trust law enforcement to not abuse their power? (Look to the 3rd world for answers)
2. How does the limiting of government involvement in regulating industry (Think DMCA and other laws which protect business models) help the economy?
Again, why aren't we trying to get both Republicans and Democrats to align with us? Aren't we non-partison, anti-industry-regulation, limited government group?
Both parties hurt our causes. The Democrats opened the flood gates for lawyers to infiltrate our industry with all sorts of rediculous Intellectual Property schemes, while the Republicans aim to do away with privacy via the Patriot Act.
Republicans generally hate lawyer infestation, so let's try to exploit that while they're in power.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
what does it take for a current US citizen to emigrate and become a Canadian citizen
Usually what it takes is an unpopular war to which the US citizen in question is opposed.
I'm an American, spent a semester at a Canadian school and took a class that was taught by an expatriate American professor.
Vietnam sparked one exodus of Americans to Canada about 30 years ago.
It will be interesting to see how the United States' Middle East venture in Iraq plays out over the long run; there's still plenty of opportunity for it, too, to spark a similar migration of Americans to Canada.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
We are a Constitutional Democracy occupied by a Capitalist Republic.
The new "Jim Crow" model disenfranchises citizens on the rule of financial/class value.
Citizen Equality is non-existent, Justice is purchased, and human dignity determined by Capital value not character.
OldHawk777
Reality is a self-induced hallucination.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
OMG...
With that logic, I can well say that Microsoft says that Linux is bad, and I'm gonna guess that Microsoft has a better idea about server software than you do.
That's very skewed logic, my friend. I see why you posted that as an AC.
-- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
They caught terrorists before the "patriot" act - remember the guy caught at the BC border? They acquired sufficient evidence to catch the 9/11 hijackers without the "patriot" act - the FBI just blew the follow-through. How is it you think that this execrable act accomplished anything?
"I once preached peaceful coexistence with Windows. You may laugh at my expense - I deserve it." Be's Jean-Louis Gass
...And I'll be there. Seriously. Let's get say, 3 million geeks/nerds/technophobes together, and fight this! If we all overrun downtown DC, think about the problems. They'd hear us, alright.
Peaceful protest, a sit-in in the capitol. Or the judiciary building. I've been out there before. Spring break, 2001. Fun place. 'Cept for the World Bank protesters, that shut down about 25% of the city for a few days. Couldn't go that way.
I'm ready to stand up for my rights, but by myself noone will listen. (Or at least really care to listen)
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
How dare you spit on the graves of the millions who died so that you can post on this site. How dare you spit on the grave of the millions of jews who were massacred by the Germans. How dare you spit on the graves of the millions who sacrificed everything they had to support this country during the war.
Comparing Bush to Hitler is a disgusting display of your ignorance of history. I demand an apology on behalf of all those you ungraciously insulted and demeaned.
Aren't you the most pathetic little PSYOPS GOP=KGB WHOREBOY yet? Perhaps a comparison between SUPERFRAUD Bush and IDI AMIN is more too your liking. Both are regarded as being dead from the neck up and both distracted their opponents by being the buffoon long enough to slit the laughing person's throat. Both are really ignorant and have played that ignorance up to hideous levels so as to distract and disarm the force of their opponent's willpower.
However, the USA-PATRIOT-DEATHCAMP-ENABLING-ACT duplicates absolutely the horrible laws of the Nazi murder & steal movement. Here is a statement that any sane person will recognize, "Hitler did not televise the DEATHCAMPS on TV. He knew that doing so would offend the useful fools that supported him unquestioningly up to now." SUPERFRAUD Bush would not televise the DEATHCAMPS of today either and the GOP=KGB WHORE MEDIA would also refuse to tell the truth to the public either.
We are a BIG NATION. An entire city of people can be slaughtered in a day with no one the wiser. If then the people that question what happened to the slaughtered town show up, the USA-PATRIOT-DEATHCAMP-ENABLING-ACT empowers the GOP=KGB WHORES to seize the questioners under "anti-terrorist" reasons quietly and execute them secretly. Remember that the Attorney General can deny ever American their citizenship instantly now, kidnap anyone, execute that person in complete secrecy, and dispose of the body ALL LEGALLY RIGHT NOW. Does anyone reading this here think John "Satan's Devoted Whore" Ashcroft is above abusing that power when he has gladly abused every power given him before?
The logical conclusion is that YES there are DEATHCAMPS operating RIGHT NOW and kidnapping innocents and murdering them RIGHT NOW because that is what the GOP=KGB WHORES want so they can rob America's National Treasury under the illusion of war, forcefully bankrupt the nation entirely, and seize the property of all Americans at whim while executing the owners of said property.
Know your murderers America.
Are they the "tree-hugging" Liberals or the "make everyone into a criminal" Criminal Traitor Republican Traitor Criminals?
Who will imprison you unjustly and steal your property? The "Save the Whales" crowd or the "Lock and Load" GOP-KGB WHORES?
Who is more nuts? The "Recycle your Bottles" Liberals or the "Ronnie ROTTEN Reagan was right in smuggling cocaine into America so we could smuggle guns to the Contras and use George H.W. Opium/Cocaine/BCCI/Money-Laundering Bush to fund the GOP=KGB rise to power"?
I see the most crooked, evil, sinister, rotten, lousy, shameful, horrible, lying, stealing, whoring, insane, inbred, bunch of sub-human trash currently occupying the White House and GOP-KGB WHORES like you cheer them on with your dim-witted hands clapping like flippers on a seal.
Go back to HELL and take your Son-of-Moloch SUPERFRAUD Bush demon-baby with you.
"Face it, a nation that maintains a 72% approval rating on George W. Bush is a nation with a very loose grip on reality.
I would say that the Romans introduced total war a long time before Sherman did.
Of course he had to live off the land, 62,000 troops, 14,500 horses, 19,500 mules, 5,500 cattle and 2,500 wagons cut off from supply trains. Confederate soldiers in the field were no better than Sherman and his 'total war."
"I hope to God he (Wheeler) will never get back to Georgia." - CSA Secretary of State Toombs to CSA Vice-President Stephens.
"Private homes are visted, carpets, blankets and other furniture they can lay thier hands on are taken by force in the presence of the owner" - Charleston Mercury on Wheeler's men.
It is also important to remeber that Sherman didn't just face "old men and boys" in Georgia. Wheeler had 3,000 cavalry against Sherman's 2,000 under Kilpatrick. 10,000 regulars sat in barracks down in Augusta. And Bell had 40,000 regulars heading towards Thomas's Army of Tennessee.
If Sherman when faced those old men and boys, it's not because the South was weak, but because the South didn't send it's regulars to fight him. If Hardee, Wheeler and Bragg had hooked up and entrenched slowing down even a part of Sherman's army, then all might have been lost.
"General Sherman ought to have been totally defeated and ruined, but the sad fact will be handed down to posterity that while Sherman's minions were devastating the country with fire and committing outrages against defenseless women, the men of Georgia staid at home, or at least a portion of them, trying to save what they had." - Texas trooper with Wheeler.
"Now that war has come home to you, you feel very different. You deprecate its horrors, but did not feel them when you sent carloads of soldiers and ammunition, and moulded shells and shot, to carry war to Kentuckey and Tennessee to desolate the homes of hundreds and thousands of good people who only asked to live in peace at thier old homes, and under the Government of thier inheritance. But these comparisons are idle. I want peace, and believe it can only be reached through union and war, and I will ever conduct war with a view to perfect and early success." - Sherman to the mayor of Atlanta.
Eben if they do, they won't find anything bad, so why the fuck should I care?
"The Patriot Act has been an extremely useful tool, a demonstrated success, and we don't want that to expire on us,"
My ass! Demonstratable to who? Everything the agencies do under the act is a secret and the public has no lawful way to find out how/why they are using/abusing their powers. If they can't demonstrate the usefullness to the public, then in my opinion it needs to be stopped.
Would you care to tell the overjoyed, newly freed Iraqi citizens who are throwing roses at our troops that we have no business there?
No, but I'd tell them that even though they may think this new freedom means they can finally say anything they want without fear of persecution from Mr. Saddam Hussein, they'll still have to deal with people like you telling them to "SHUT THE HELL UP" when they try to exercise their new found right to criticize the government.
Great reply. Thanks.
I would say that the Romans introduced total war a long time before Sherman did.
Well, Josephus points out that the Romans usually made the offer of "look, surrender and submit or we're putting everyone to the sword." A great deal of Roman conquests were made on the back of this tactic. Of course, old Josephus was a bit of a toady....
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
HAH! I voted for Harry Browne in 2000... Not my goddamn fault, you stupid bastards.
/me starts hitchhiking to Canada
Enjoy the new regieme....
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!
I propose we all stop referring to this bill as the "Patriot" act. That cheapens the word Patriot.
Patriots fought and died for freedom. This bill kills freedom.
America is the land of the Free and the home of the Brave. This anti-freedom bill was passed by cowards so scared to death of terrorists they can't trust the people who elected them.
Bush says the terrorists hate our freedom and attacked it. By that definition, those who voted for this bill are terrorists.
This bill is counter to the fundamental rights America originally broke away from Britain over.
I propose we refer to it as the Benedict Arnold bill from now on, as it is an act of treason against our principles.
I was thinking of the Second and Third Punic Wars and what the Romans did to Carthage.
The Huns and other Mongol advances across Asia and Europe are also pretty total war-ish.
I agree! An armed society is a polite society, and I'd much rather be shot by anyone other than the police, or at least, anyone doing it for reasons that are theirs, not because they were told to do it! If you have a personal motivation to shoot me, I can at least respect that! I'd rather deal with terrorists than the police any day!
Cheers, Joshua
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
I must say that I am against the Patriot Act. While invasion of privacy went on before it, now it is just to dang easy for them to invade our privacy.
That being said, what makes you think that privacy is really an "essential liberty"? I mean, the only people who get real privacy are the ones with enough money to afford a place to live. Homeless people do not have the luxury, yet we all act like it is an inaliable right on par with freedom of speech or freedom of religion. There is nothing about freedom of privacy in the bill of rights. People quote the the 9th, but I just don't see it as being as important as those specifically stated. Why do people get so bent out of shape about stuff like the Patriot Act, but not so much when other basic rights are being challenged?
It's an interesting indicator on how creepy things are getting when a comment like this is modded "insightful" rather than "funny". Satire is dying.
It's much easier for our government to protect our freedoms if you're willing to give up all but a few, so that they need only concentrate on protecting those few.
Completely unrelated (or is it?) but did anybody else play Missile Command like this?
You know, where you let all but one of the cities die as soon as the game becomes difficult, so that it's easy to keep playing?
I'll let you derive your own thoughts about how this may be happening to us...
"There are people who do not love their fellow human being, and I _hate_ people like that!" - Tom Lehrer
It really does!
S.113
This looks like the right bill. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Again, according to the article, Senator Hatch (a co-sponsor) may attempt to attach a repeal of the sunset provision of PATRIOT to the above bill.
I'm not worried about my privacy in this case because I'm not a criminal and I don't do anything that would attract the FBI's attention. If they want to tap my phone, I may be a little pissed that they are wasting tax dollars and their time on me, but that's it.
Have you ever picked up and read a US history book? Do you really think that Frank Sinatra did anything worthy of the FBI's attention? Yet they kept (and still have, i presume) detailed accounts of his sex life.
See topic...
Tibbon
tibbon.com
What have you got against liberals anyhow? The American Heritage Dictionary via yahoo reference defines liberalism thus:
Is that really something you are opposed to? Or do you listen to too many talking heads on the Teevee telling you that liberals are bad, dumb, and out to take your money?- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
No, I believe that they'll continue to do what they've always done. Al Queda didn't just pop into existance. They've been around for a lone time, committing many terrorists acts abroad.
The law enforcement branches in this country have all of the power they need to get their job done. It's been shown that law enforcement agencies had all of the informationed needed to stop the events of 9/11, except it didn't get the attention it needed (ie: a process problem, not a "laws keep us from doing what needs to be done" problem).
yeah, which few? The right to consume and be sheep?
Once we started the war on drugs. We got more drugs in this country.
Now that we have the war on terror we will have more terror.
Why? Because it pays, and makes people powerful.
While I "agree" with you about the "Patriot" act and the need for "reform," I must point out that "overuse" of "quotes" makes you sound like a "whacko."
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Riight... it's obvious which glass of cool-aid YOU drank. If you really believe that, ask yourself where your last two presedents were when the country was calling for them. If serving in the forces and fighting in far off lands is such an act of patriotism, why do all the successful americans (ie: the rich ones) avoid it like the plague? Shouldn't they be proud to serve their country and pay back for all it gave them?
Cliche or not, it's exactly what's happening right now. I'm not enough of a nut to think someone knew about 9/11 and allowed it, but most certianly, unelected members of govt. used 9/11 to pass laws using good intensions and fear that normally never would have been considred. [remember "Patriot" was tried several times and never made it out of committe before 9/11!] Now George wants a war, and has made no indication of backing away from Iraq after we're done or of stopping the war machine from fighting another "enemy"!
We're now at war, and that makes us a legitimate target for our opponents--that's not terrorism, it's just war! In wars innocent people die--That's why many people didn't want one! BUT, Should one more "terrorist" act happen [I wouldn't put the next one past a conspiricy theory!] I forsee one more press conference telling us George is taking control during wartime--I'm sure he'll give it back too!
A week, a month, a year--expect it to be comming or get up and vote/impeach these guys out of office!
fyi, go to the linked URL, then edit out the first web addr and change the www to archive and then you'll be able to read the article without that STOOPID registration crap!
ie, change this url:
old url
to this:
new url
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
There are no giant squids within a thousand miles of here. Either my anti-squid paperweight works or the squids have been in a good mood lately. My guess is the former.
My guess would be that the squids were a little disheartened by the enormous backfiring of their little plan to promote the removal of U.S. troops from Squidland.
I said our current leadership, not "it's the Republicans' fault". The title I submitted was a little less inflamatory as well. And it's the article's reference to the "Congressional Republicans" to which I referred in my article posting.
I personally believe the party system is way off course from what utility it used to bring to the table. That's all parties, btw. Not just any one. party.
I'm unaffiliated.
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
Great. Getting advice on legislation from the Chronicle and the Times.
Best advice. Read those left leaning rags, then read some right leaning rags. Read the right and left blogs.
Then decide.
Don't get your news from one side or the other. You're not going to get the whole story.
Left or Right or Wrong, it doesn't matter. Okay, so Republicans ultimately favore life over liberty, and Democrats ultimately favor liberty over life (this is an oversimplified generalization given the comments I've read here so far). Neither is more admirable than the other, and the constant bickering between the two sides is exactly what our system of government is designed to facilitate.
The result is a continuous national awareness of threats to both our lives and liberties, and therefore the best possible protection of either given assaults on the other. Sure, the balance fluctuates, but it is exactly that flucuation that keeps us aware of our political discontents. Isn't this exactly what we want?
Though, I was really expecteding to be modded down as off-topic, troll. I am as shocked as you are.
You could've hired me.
Has nobody else thought that Iraqis celebrating the arrival of U.S. troops are just trying to look pro-American, to improve their chances of not being killed by U.S. forces?
Let's see how ordinary Iraqis feel about whether or not we have any business there after Saddam's been removed, and the war proper declared over...
Totally aside from the stupidity of the name, it's declared objective, which is the "worldwide elimination of terrorism", is both logically impossible to achieve, as well as unprovable whether or not it ever has been achieved.
It's also logically impossible to eliminate crime on the streets; therefore, we must let all criminals go free.
Exactly my point. Without the patriot act it took 8 years to commit a subsequent terrorist act on US soil. So how after less than a few years can anyone conclude that the Patriot Act is doing anything?
Isn't this a very good working tactic - i.e. a "salami tactic"?
You introduce a bill over and over again, and if it does not work, you make some "adjustments", let it pass and several month/years later, you implement more of your "goal"?!
He doesn't take a crap without checking with the Mormon church on what toilet paper to use. They command and he obeys. Welcome to the new christian america.
Bad by your definition, or theirs? The problem with the PATRIOT act is its excessive potential for abuse. And people will abuse it, if they have not already.
Life sucks, but death doesn't put out at all....
--Thomas J. Kopp
It's possible to apply the definition of terrorism to George W. Bush, Al Gore, or any other elected official if you can prove that they sped on the highway, because it's a violation of state law attempting to coerce the civilian population.
The Patriot Act] grants the executive branch almost police state powers,
How do you justify the word "almost" in that sentence?
If you are telling me that 49% of the people should go to jail because it's a law made by a democraticly elected set of representatives, where you assume such things as "guilty until innocent" "right to fair trial" and all the other things normally granted by to a person on trail, I find that acceptable. Wierd but acceptable.
If 0,1% of the population disappear as "suspected terrorists", are held without charges, lawyer and trialed in secret or not at all, not by the people, or held indefinately, I find that unacceptable. Am I the only one?
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I've never seen this bias on CNN. Could you provide some examples, as it seems like moderate corporate news to me. It certainly doesn't rub off as liberal.
Everyone may thank [...] the general population for our current leadership.
Uhm, last I checked, the general population DIDN'T vote for our current leadership...
Granted, your example concerning Taney and the SCOTUS of 1861 bears hearing out given their pro-slavery stance. Unfortunately most Americans can't tell Roger Taney from James Buchanan from Adelai Stevenson etc. I'd say the Alien and Sedition Acts rank up there for some of our worst anti-Constitutional legislation as well, perhaps the flurry of anti-Communist legislation bears major anti-Constitution violations as well. But your example is quite valid.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
http://www.FuckTheVote.org/
Peace and love, y'all
I know that my Senator is opposed to extension of the Patriot Act and that the guy who ran against my representative last term was a sacrifical lamb (he barely got 20% of the vote). There are those of us who ardently oppose this legislation and whose voting districts are heavily controlled by one party or another that their voice is never really heard anyway (Republicans in Massachusetts, Democrats in parts of the South, etc.). For some of us, the SCOTUS is the only shot we have to get our voices heard and to see our ideals of this nation given a chance. Some of us got out there to register voters and see if we could make a change from the ground up. Heck, I still have questions about the Florida situation because of personal experience with one county's political situation and the fact that it was in the hands of the brother of one of the candidates.
I have written to my representative to try to get things done and get the word out concerning laws of interest to my profession. There's no way in heck he's going to lose in this district and the senator that just got elected barely won, and that was only because el presidente came down and went on the stump for him. Neither of these guys is likely to vote against the Patriot extension if it comes up for a vote, but I want to see it gone anyway, so I hope the SCOTUS intervenes.
Elections these days only concern that 5% of the people who both vote and who don't always vote with the same party. If you can control that sway vote you can win almost any given election. And in some districts (like mine) the straight-ticket voters of one party dominate so heavily that the same party has controlled the same positions in the area for years. In short, for at least a few million of us the SCOTUS us our only real shot at seeing some legislature we don't like getting eliminated. Our representatives don't always represent our interests, but their party more than anything else since they know that they will get re-elected as long as the party is kept happy.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. This is just another example.
I'm officially embarrassed to associate myself with the US Military....
I'm gonna run a NAVPERS 1336/3 Special Request/Authorization Chit. R/R PERMISSION TO DESERT AND DEFECT TO CANADA...
Ummm, err, say what, now?
When I read what is possible under this act...
.
I just get very very scared...
It seems as if the moment you elect an official, they join the government in order to stop the rights of its citizens.
Surely there is a reason why I should not be this scared-out-my-ass. .
Please. If you can say "They are just blowing it out of proportion because..." please do. I need to feel a bit more safe at the moment.
I dont care about moderation, just please reply. This has unnerved me quite a bit.
Defeat the Act now or accept that your grandchildren will know of democracy only through history books.
Flame or troll, I'll bite. This thread is neither mindless, nor left wing. First of all, there is no real left wing in America. Go and look up your definition of left wing if you don't believe me. Second of all, go and read the literature. It has been observed over and over again that the centerists (which is what I would call most people posting to slashdot) are more epistemologically sophisticated and make sounder, more reasoned arguments than right wingers such as yourself. And indeed it is the case. Go and read what people have posted. YOU are the one which is uninformed. You have not cited ANY evidence, but instead have resorted to causal stories (note I did not say "casual") which is noted in cognitive psychology as a "reasoning bias" (A more famous example is the gamblers fallacy). Moreover you reveal your complete lack of intellingence by spelling "enslaved", "inslaved". Which in turn leads me to believe that you probably do not understand what "epistemology" is, let alone a causal story. Ah well, a little rant makes me feel better anyway. Who cares if you cannot understand. And by the way: No one here doubts that Saddam was a brutal dictator. Being against a war in Iraq does not mean that I support Saddam at all. I am NOT sorry to seem him gone and Iraqi's have all the right to be happy. I feel however that the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians is an unacceptable way to go about removing him.
A car is speeding towards a tree. Someone calls out "That car is going to hit the tree!" You object that because bumper hasn't yet met bark, it won't? Extremely powerful and influential elements are at work to remove a minor part - the Sunset Clause - of a very large Act. Judging by the almost complete apathy of the American puplic to its passing, it looks to me to be a cakewalk. Claiming it's not going to happen is far more misleading that saying it is.
Much as I agree with all of you, I must say that it seems you are all overreacting a bit. The Article Heading says "ongress to Make PATRIOT Act Permanent". Stricly speaking, this is not possible. Any future Congress can repeal the act. However, that doesn't excuse the criminality of the matter.
Even if the PATRIOT Act becomes semi-permanent, I suppose we can only hope that it does get repealed relatively soon.
-Dae
"Alle reden vom wetter. Wir nicht." - SDS Sozialistischer Deutscher Studentenbund.
j00 4r3 3n73r1ng l337 w0r1d.
This scares the living hell out of me. I'm not worried that the Patriot Act has given "the government too much power to spy on Americans". Rather, I am worried that the government has (and will have) too much control over our actions. The current situation with Mike Hawash (and I'm sure there are many others) is simply unacceptable. There is no situation that comes to mind that would warrant such an infringement upon an American citizen's rights. I am afraid, deathly afraid, that this is only the beginning. Really now, lets get some progress... or maybe just abandon Ship.
P.S. really, we have the electoral congress to thank for the current leadership
... the "liberation" of Iraq wasn't about oil or WMDs (did anyone ever believe this?) but to bring DEMOCRACY to Iraq so you Americans can flee your police state. Now that's clever.
Free as in mason.
While you're all arguing about the role of the courts, the spirit of america, or the source of freedom... consider a few things.
;)
The much revered founding fathers did not create the american version of freedom for all people, in fact they specifically did so in a deal to alleviate the tax burden imposed on them by the british... but this is nothing new.
The document from which freedom as a legal concept originates is the magna carta... a document signed at knifepoint for the sole purpose of giving tax breaks and executive powers to the venitian merchants who settled in england after being thrown out of europe. Freedom for the people was merely a by-product of legal autonomy for the oligarchy.
The wording of such documents are always for the benefit of those who draft them, and as such "legal terminology" has led to centuries of deception by those who understand it against those who don't. To you and I, a citizen is an individual, with rights, freedoms and perhaps even a soul. To the legal profession (at least those in the know), a citizen is a possesion of a corporation... did you really think the oligarchies would just give up their posessions?
To the naked eye, the current world stage has uncle sam out front leading the charge, with the uk bulldog panting in the background doing its master's bidding... however LEGALLY, this is not the state of affairs. The chain of ownership goes all the way back to the crown, a corporation wholly independant of the english monarchy born in the 15th century. You know these entities as BANKS.
Constitutions are flimsy, but title deeds are rigid. The almighty american dollar and the US federal reserve are private assets owned by the crown, and in terms of their legal obligation to state, they have none because they are literally soverign in their own right (think... vatican).
The manouvre to exclude public debate from the legislative process, even so far as to exclude the will of the people from the electoral process is an ancient slight of hand, although the slight of hand was not in the revoking freedom, but in the granting of it in the first place.
It is far easier to control the will of 5 supreme court judges, than it is to control several billion voters.
To what extent will corporations go to to protect their interests, and who exactly owns your judges?... check out Bob Kolody's adventures in the 9th circuit.
To determine their diabolical purpose... let your paranoia be your guide
Did they know the charity was engaged in supporting terrorists? If so, then yes, they are responsible.
When you're voting for a candidate, you should check to see if that candidate is going to vote to trample your rights when they get into office.
paintball
In case you needed a reminder...you don't own your body.
Sound like something you could hear in Soviet russia (to paraphrase a signature I read on slashdot) and CERTAINLY sound like somehting my DDR friend told me when I visited DDR long ago.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
The Patriot Act is harmless. I seriously doubt the majority of posters on this board have even read it, or understand the changes it actually makes compared to what we have had forever.
The spying ability everybody is paranoid about is simply common-sense stuff, hardly a serious invasion of the average joe's privacy by any stretch of the imagination. I suspect most people are simply repeating the misinformation they heard the last time the subject came up.
The government can't simply spy on anybody, they have to get a warrant. The problem with the old scheme was that they had to share classified intelligence information with an open-court in order to justify the warrant, a process that by its very nature screwed things up. The new scheme simply allows them to deal with a court that has been given security clearences and keeps the proceedings secret in order to obtain the warrant. The same checks and balances are in place. This hardly effects the average joe, as the only reason the government would even use this special court is if the proof for getting the warrant were classified.
Then there are a few other things like roaming wire taps that everybody cries about. Boo hoo, so they have a warrant to tap your phone, but if you walk across the street and use the pay-phone, they can't tap that???? How is that an invasion of privacy (remember, they have already justified a wire-tap on every phone they think you might use). It's only common sense that once you get a warrant to tap a particular person that the tap should be on the person (and follow that person) as opposed to being on a particular phone they might use.
I'm sure there are few other clauses that many would find objectionable, but the vast majority of them are common-sense and trivial changes to systems already in place.
The problem is, groups like the ACLU see any movement no matter how minor in giving the government power as a massive power-grab and infringement of the constitution.
Slashdot readers should educate themselves...the American public may certainly be sheep, but slashdot readers are no better, they just have a different shepherd.
Screw the constitution!
The constitution also says that you can have guns, as well as keep several wives;
The problem is the constituition was made up by a bunch of rebellious millionaires (much like Osama Bin Ladin) 300 years ago! This is the 21st century for christs sakes!
I don't give a fuck about terrorists free speech or any other of their rights, they're terrorists and therefore they HAVE NO RIGHTS. If the constitution gives them rights then it's the constitution that is wrong!
The patriot acts protects us from terrorists, plain and simple; if our government didn't put it in place, image how many hundreds of thousands would have died.
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
www.freemikehawash.org
/ 19 0223&mode=thread&tid=103
:(
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/04
whos going to make my Intel cpu's now?
My brother, 13, recently went to a mock UN conference for middle school students. The question under debate was biased reporting in the media about Islam. The suggested resolution that a committe of several dozen of these young teens came to was that some limited censorship of the media by the UN would be an acceptable price to pay to get rid of bias in the media. These were all intelligent kids, who know far more about the political world (they still remember their American history classes and like learning about international subjects) than most adults. They're all well-meaning, idealistic young people. Yet, the still made a very stupid resolution. My point is that it does not take dumb people with evil intentions to make bad laws. Rather, it takes exeptional people with the noblest of intentions to make good ones. Something important like the Patriot act should not be written under duress. Decisions about how long it should last should not be made in the middle of a patriotic frenzy during a war. The rather low-caliber individuals already in Congress are barely qualified as it is to write something this important. Having them do it, under these conditions is a sure recepie for disaster. If we need any law right now, we need one that prevents the government from making permanent legislation during times of war.
In summary: the Constitution is hard to amend because the founding fathers realized that few of their sucessors would be up to the task of changing such an important document. Only those that can convience not only a majority that voted for them, but most of those that didn't as well, should be able to make such a change. Only those people are qualified enough to do so.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
It's great how Sci-Fi becomes reality! :)
Way to go Orson Wells!
Ideally yes... however, I'm glad to see that this is proving that the system is working to some extent. Even though the original idea was to create the laws the people wanted first, it's nice to know that the system of checks and balances is working fairly well even so many centuries from its inception.
"he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
These are scarry times. Hate creates more hate. Destruction, lies and threats increase tone every day. Please US citizens -- get rid of this guy.
What about the IRA which was funded by the USA?
If i was an American i would begin to watch very very carefully to what my gov is doing. Right now in America if you say "terrorist" you can do anything to anyone. .... and so on. Then they came after me, and I had no one to help me"
There was a priest in Germany during the Nazis. I dont know exacltly what he said but it was something like this:
"First they came after the jews, then they came after the, protestants, then they after
This may sound exagerated, but if the Patriot Act becomes effective...
Agree completely. I have often wanted to point this out to politicians when they are considering passing similar laws. I would just love to ask them in their street interviews "Would you trust the opposition with these powers ?" , and of course if they say "no" then ... well "then how can we trust you with them ?"
Bitter and proud of it.
It happened before. Russia, Germany, you name it. Remember, "1984" was inspired from real life!
Bite my shiny metal... oops... Nevermind!
Homer: "Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm."
Lisa: "That's specious reasoning, Dad."
Homer: "Why thank you, honey."
Lisa: "By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away."
Homer: "Oh, how does it work?"
Lisa: "It doesn't work."
Homer: "Uh-huh."
Lisa: "It's just a stupid rock."
Homer: "Uh-huh."
Lisa: "But I don't see any tigers around, do you?"
Homer: "Lisa, I want to buy your rock."
</obsimpsons>
--
Disclaimer: The above statement probably includes half-truths, because real truth is too complicated.
As usual with articles on New York Times, you can swap out 'www' to 'archive' and no reg is required.
Or do you listen to too many talking heads on the Teevee telling you that liberals are bad, dumb, and out to take your money?
Please get it right, us liberals want to take your money and give it to the crackhead welfare mother in the ghetto, put your children in foster care, make you take public transit, take away your house and make you live in public housing, ban eating meat, teach peganism in the schools, ban christianity, and turn all women into lesbians.
Did I forget anything comrades?
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
You know, people like to say this, but they don't really mean it. What do you mean by "won't tollorate[sic] it"? What will they do? Nothing. They'll drive their fat fucking ass to McDonalds in their SUV, while talking on their phone to their spouse that they hate, asking if they want the super-size or the super-fucking-duper size freedom fries.
People will tolerate it. All you might see is a Fox News report about it, in between the reports on the latest revolutionary diet and the current Hollywood scandal. The American public doesn't care about what their government is doing, because if they do care all of the local sheep will bleat at them "liiiiibbberaaaaal". And it isn't limited to our public, even our officials were ignorant enough stage a "protest" by renaming food with the word French in it, even though french fries are Belgian, and french toast was created in New York.
Americans are happy in their ignorance. Shortly after 9/11, there was true compassion and solidarity. But it waned very quickly, and soon there were towel-head slurs, T-shirts with Bin Laden on them with a crosshairs on his face, and business as usual. And if you think I am un-American, you are wrong. I love this country for all of the good, but I want to see it change for the better. I don't like the way it is turning out, it needs to change. We are a joke in other countries for good reason, and if you react to that with defensive attitudes like "Fuck them, we are the USA" then YOU are part of the problem. And it doesn't matter if GWB was right about Iraq and the weapons of mass destruction, the way he went about it was wrong. Liberate Iraq my ass. Yes, it is good that they are liberated, but it is funny how the same people who make the towel-head jokes are suddenly the ones supporting the so-called liberation. When this is all over, I am betting that it will be a matter of weeks before I hear my first deragatory joke around the office about the Iraqi people.
Bush is part of the fucking problem. The Patriot Act is part of the problem, and most likely if you live in the USA YOU are part of the problem. And I don't have any easy answers, so don't ask for them. Whey does everything have to be an easy answer? If everyone would just wake up and see the problem, the real problem, then they could start to change. If you can't see that, then you are a short-sighted sheep, just waiting to be led to the slaughter.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
My bad...deluded
Sorry about all the quotes .... just trying to make a point ...
The so called patriot acts, in my opinion, aren't too patriotic, at least in the sence that most people think of when they think of what the USA was founded upon.
I only use quotes like that when I am ranting and raving about somethig that really pisses me off (and when I'm trying not to use any vulgar words that may make me look a witless fool).
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
... and you lack any type of long term vision. That much is obvious. This is the kind of law that just doesn't restrict the rights of terrorists, but of the masses. Besdies, who's definition of terrorist are we using, and who makes that determination? Bottom line: This law is VERY frightning!
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
Great post!
HallmarkOrnaments.Com
trying to attaching it to another antiterrorism bill that would make it easier for the government to use secret surveillance warrants against "lone wolf" terrorism suspects.
Lone wolf, better known as "common criminal".
Opps, correction: Lone wolf suspect, better known as a suspect. For any given crime you gererally have several suspects. Therefore most suspects are in fact innocent. Also note that they they are particularly interested in targeting people in advance of a crime that may or may not occure at some point in the future.
The primary effect of the antiterrorism bill would be to make it easier for the government to use secret surveillance warrants against innocent people.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Your implication is that there is a difference between govt and corporations. Not with this administration.
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
It goes further than that - any such legislation expires after five years, and can't override certain rights.
Elsewhere, the rights are stated as not absolute, but subject to such limits as are necessary in a free and democratic society. Libel and slander, for example, but also hate speech is also a crime (in principle - convictions are exceedingly rare).
And so on. It's a complex legal document. The upshot is, that:
- Yes, freedom of expression (not just "speech") is guaranteed in the Canadian constitution, and
- Yes, it is binding on the government - in fact, it is the document which created the Government of Canada and gives it all authority it has, as passed by the British parliament, before amendment rights were turned over to the governments (federal and provincial) of Canada.
This also means the courts get to decide what "necessary" restrictions are, and the people get to decide whether to allow their rights to be overridden. In Quebec, "La loi 101" (the language law) limits the use of English in business signs, and because it overrides freedom of expression, must be renewed every five years. When the population elects a government that doesn't want to renew it, it will disappear.The courts have filed down the edges of the law as well into its present form.
No. I'm saying think first, form your own opinion based on knowledge, and then spread the word. I went to an anti-war protest rally, and asked three questions.
Why are you here?
What is the worst part about war?
What is the largest risk a post-war Iraq faces when Saddam's regime falls?
You'd be amazed at what I heard. 1)Why are you here? because someone else wanted to go and I'm with them. 2)What is the worst part about war? People dying. 3) Post war Iraq? Uh... Finding a new leader.
People had no clue about Iraq.. and I bet a few of them could find it on a map. If I brought a globe with me I would have asked.
So? We could have nuked Baghdad but we didn't, we did it the hard way to save lives all around, open your mind just a little bit, just because we nuked Japan is no reason to take the threat of terrorists with nukes, chemical weapons, or biological weapons lightly. The future - VOIP, Code Morphing, and 802.11!
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
What I don't understand is that when the government wants to collect data on gun owners, conservatives unite & claim constitutional rights to arms, infringement of privacy and the like and shut the measures down. But when the government wants to collect unspecified data on potentially anybody in the US, conservatives jump on the patriotism bandwagon.
If a group were interested in stopping this legislation, a step in the right direction might be getting the conservative movement to understand that citizens' rights, including those to keep and bear arms, are at risk.
The War on Terror will not be a failure, it will inspire a whole new generation of terrorists to provide ample justification of Patriot act II and III
Fifteen hundredth post!
...
Hehe, sorry I went for the cheap shot about the use of quotes, I'm not usually a grammer-nazi. The patriot act is one of the most unpatriotic things this country has done in a long while. Lack of oversite and official secrecy always lead to bad things. We are moving closer and closer to totalitarianism every day. People think that because we have a democracy and consititutionally protected civil liberties, we are immune to fascism and totalitarianism. We have been the proverbial frogs in the pot for some time now: as those that seek power have slowly turned up the heat, the people have barely squirmed. My only hope is that in their hubris they will over reach themselves and show the world what they truely are.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
As opposed to conservatives, who want to take your money and give it to coke-head CEOs in Texas, kill off public transit and make you drive an SUV, take away your house for growing medical marijuana and make you live in jail, ban vegetables in school lunches (hey, ketchup is a vegetable, right?) teach people how to burn pagans at the stake, make christianity mandatory, and turn all women into baby factories.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
As an example, the Canadian anti-terrorist bill was blocked by the Senate and sent back to tbe Commons because of many concerns that civil rights violations were being rammed through due to popular demand, leading to extensive revisions before it was finally passed.
In practice, it's often used for political maneuvering as well. As an example of that, when the Supreme Court struck down abortion restriction laws, the Conservative governmnet passed new legislation to satisfy its conservative constituents amid loud, public debate. In the Senate, it was quietly killed unnoticed - the best of both worlds, satisfy the constituents, and avoid further legal controversy.
The senate also reviews policy - reports on deciminalizing marijuana, as well as the Kirby report on medicare have been very well researched and influential. The former is a topic that elected officials don't want to touch, but unelected Senators are free to address. The second gives additional weight to the Romanow report, by coming to basically the same conclusions independently.
Canadian politics is rarely as simple as what meets the eye. I don't think it could function without the Senate - though I would like to see Senators elected, I wouldn't want to see them worry about re-election, because that would hinder a large part of their function.
Hello - I've been living under a rock for the past few months, plus I'm Australian so I haven't been paying too much attention to this, but can someone explain in plain English what the PATRIOT act actually means, or allows?
Thankyou.
I set you in charge of cleaning up the depleted uranium. Put your ideals where your mouth is.
That's how Bushism works.
--- "pero toda poesía es hostil al capitalismo"
Depends on how the line is being tapped.
Most of those detectors just show a change in the resistance of the phone loop.
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
Just out of curiosity, but how many forign terrorists have use nukes, bilogical or chemical weapons in attacks on the US?
So far except for one domestic terrorist AFAIK there have only been conventional means used to attack us, I dont see this as having changed significantly.
I'm not saying terrorists are nice people, but for the most part they dont need to get all fancy, and it's so much easyer to do the suicide bomb thing.
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
Logans Run movie?
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
Well, it was the law that allowed Hitler to get his final grip on the power.
It allowed him to pass down laws without requirement for the parlament or other legeslative organs, effectively concentrating all the power on him.
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
Or we can say a lot about you, who obviously has an ego and thinks that they know more about other countries than everyone else. It might be true in many respects that the US educational system has many follies, but it is revered by many, including the japanese (whom seem to many as the paragon of education), as an amazingly supportive system that fosters creativity. The sheer amount of inventions and ideas coming from the United States far outsells the physical exports from the US. Sure there are problems with our educational system, but why then are we the only nation that exports more services than physical goods.
Oh, but now you'll say that's my ego, but I'm not saying we're better because of that. I'm just trying to say look at things before you form such an opinion. Things aren't so black and white.