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The Gospel According to Neo
Xel writes "Josh Burek, writer for The Christian Science Monitor and A.K.A. the guy who sits 4 cubicles from me, has written an excellent essay on religion in The Matrix: The Gospel According to Neo. Sure, this topic has been covered ad nauseum, but it's refreshing to see such a thoughful examination aimed not at geeks alone but a broader, more traditional, and more traditionally religious audience. It also has a nice little glossary at the end where even pasty-faced and vinyl-clad Matrix worshippers may find some easter eggs they didnt know."
A new take on a wonderful movie(or a summary of all the "takes" I haven't seen around before). It's funny, today in my Comp Repair (A/Net+) class we've been watching The Matrix all day..
I really have no idea what I am talking about.
the render farms rested, for their caches were full, and their disks bore the fruit of long labors.
The geek shall inherit the earth.
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I believe that there's symbolism in the film, but come on, that's stretching it just a bit. You can find non-existant messages in anything if you look hard enough. Just like assassination predictions in Moby Dick.
All this time... I thought it was just a really good movie...
Soemtimes I think people just get stuck in the "willing suspension of disbelief" and forget that its just a movie... im not looking for a religious revolution, I just want to see Neo kick some machine ass...
But I will be watching on opening day... I already have tickets...
Fire in the hands of the village idiot is no tool, but a weapon of mass destruction
Ooops.
Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
Score: -1 100% Flamebait
It seems odd to me that the most common criticism for Battlefield Earth was the religious views of some of the people involved. I'm not defending the film, and perhaps its mostly lemmings spouting such criticism, but it seems an odd contrast compared to the religious parralels in films like Star Wars and The Matrix that people just eat up.
There's also a fair amount of Buddhism mixed in the Matrix ... more specifically the idea that the world is not real, and that anybody can find enlightenment through belief. But I guess since we don't have a "Buddhist Science Monitor" in this country we get a lot more observations on Christian "Wester Religion" themes. There's a good essay about Buddhism, Gnosticism and Christianity on the Matrix website...
Take the word "matrix" and take the numbers that add them together.
13+ 1+ 20+ 18+ 9+ 24=85
Subtract the number of apostles
You get 73.
If the holy number is expressed as a trinity like so:
7*(7+7)
You get 98.
Multiply the two numbers:
98*73
Which gives 7154
That spells out the word God.
Coincidence?
I think not!
I like the bit where Neo fights the agent.
Every time that someone says "God" in the movie, Trinity (if she is present) responds as if she was being addressed. This happens at least twice.
Whether she is actually responding is always left kind of pseudoambiguous:But, while it could be coincidence, I'm guessing that it just means that Trinity has a healthy amount of self-esteem. If you were a leather-clad female trapped in a hovercraft with a bunch of antisocial geeks, you'd probably start to think you were God too.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Sometimes if you see something weird in your dreams, it might not mean anything, you could have just been dreaming something you might have seen on the TV or something.
All this armwaving about "hidden meanings" is just making a fun movie more than it really is: a fun movie.
Can't we just enjoy the fucking movie without looking for bullshit hidden ideologies and messages?
.....well...probably not....
FWIW, I bet I can take a transcript of any John Ashcroft speech and "find" references to Satan Worship. Does that mean it's really in there,
Sigh..........
And some critics said "E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial" relied heavily on the account of Christ's passion - a suggestion that director Steven Spielberg, who is Jewish, rejected.
I got as far as the line above and had to stop reading. I dont remember ET whipping out a hammer or saw during the movie to do a bit of carpentry and if I remember correctly he goes back to his buddies in the end without being crucified to death.
Its a movie. Turn your brain off for a couple of hours and enjoy the spectacle
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Switching gears... In an interview released today over at Coming Soon, Lawrence Fishburne gives a pretty detailed account of (some of) his experience with The Matrix and playing Morpheus.
WARNING: The interview may spoil some minor plot details near the bottom -- the first six paragraphs are safe. When it gets to "Early audiences are already getting a different sense...", you might consider waiting a day or two to see the movie and then catch up on what he had to say about his character.1) It does not auctomatically make him successful.
2) It does not make the film have a plot. (And before the sheep come out, I understood what they thought the plot was [It didn't "go over my head."], but it was not internally consistent or logical enough to warrant a suspension of disbelief.)
Because when I think of eastern religion and Christianity (as in its core teachings and not as practiced), I think of a casual disregard for human life and mindless slaughter.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
this is a movie that ... captures people's intellectual imagination.
With dialog like "Noone can be told what the Matrix is", "Woah", and "I know Kung Fu" it's no wonder everyone's in an intellectual tiffy over it. And let us not forget that whole brilliant monologue on weather chicken tastes like chicken.
The Matrix rocks, but it's a silly sci fi super action movie-not some kind of brilliantly thought out metaphor for reality. I'm reminded of my English teach in HS telling me how every noun in every book is a symbol for humanity and her struggles. Come on people, the people who wrote that script were just making a good movie, not sending us a message. That said, I still have opening day tickets.
"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." -Philips
going downhill or something? i'd expect a better article from them, if anyone. the 101/303 lost me the article but honestly...of the thousands of relevant matrix/philosophy ideas...why those? either they have been paid off or something...but this is a waste. i think it's interesting how you can find those, like me who thought it was too christian the first time[and only the first time] i saw it...and then there are others who will think it's too atheistic. that i found neet.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
There is no Gospel......
RoseColor red={0, 0xffff, 0x0000, 0x0000};VioletColour blue={0, 0x0000, 0x0000, 0xffff};find / -name *mybase*|chown you
See exclusive MATRIX REVOLUTIONS screenshot here. :)
--- Frantisek Fuka (Yes, that's my real name and you have no idea how it's pronounced)
Matrix's storyline which projects the world as a simulation is very similar to what Eastern philosophies say. Eastern religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism treat the world as Mayajaal or web of deceit/temptation/unreal things. To realise one's true potential a person needs to only break mental barriers is also theorised by Eastern philosophies.
Numerology: Neo's apartment number is 101, suggesting that he's "the one." Neo is shot in apartment number 303, and after 72 seconds (72 hours = 3 days), he rises again.
I'd love to meet the first guy who thought to time that. I can see the tinfoil hat now.
Also, as a physics major, it hurts my eyes to see 72 seconds = 72 hours = 3 days. I guess no one bothered to teach the numerologists unit conversions.
And some critics said "E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial" relied heavily on the account of Christ's passion - a suggestion that director Steven Spielberg, who is Jewish, rejected.
"E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial" wasn't a remake of a religious passion play. It was a remake of those Disney films from the 50's and 60's where the kids would go hunting or camping and bring home a racoon, or an otter, or a crow (or whatever). Mayhem and maddness would ensue, and the new found animal friend would eventually be returned home.
E.T. follows the old Disney plot lines perfectly. Why re-invent the wheel?
Sure there's Christian symbolism all over the place in The Matrix. Take Neo's name for example:
Neo Anderson
Neo = New
Ander = Man
Which translates to 'New Son of Man'.
What did Christ call himself? The Son of Man.
But then again, there's also Bhuddist imagry and as was mentioned the main theme is based on Plato's Cave.
BTW: My wife attended a talk by Leonard Sweet several months back and he claimed that he is one of the spiritual consultants for The Matrix movies. That would explain where the Christian imagry came from.
Despite the name of the publication, it should be understood that the Christian Science Monitor is not an intensely religious newspaper. In fact, it is one of the most objective and well-written news publications in national circulation. The CSM is often cited by debaters, etc. as a reputable and impartial source of journalism (much more integrity and journalistic value than the likes of CNN, for example).
and Matrix hype...
More about the CS Monitor's origin and purpose
the bulk of his book meditations on first philosophy deals with the idea that we can never truely know if reality exists as we percieve it. one of the possible realities he throws out is that we are constantly being decieved by some all powerful evil being who's goal is to make us believe everything that is not true. what descartes concludes is that even if everything he believes is false, he can still convince himself that he exists, because of the fact that he can convince himself (i think therefore i am). Descartes was one of the first christian philosophers to actually try to find other explanations for the way things worked other than "God willed it that way" so i'm surprised he didn't get brought up. maybe it has something to do with his whole "machines will never be able to think" theory ;)
I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you
thats one of the best trolls ive heard around here for a while.
i sell illegal drugs
Is there just a possibility that they are reading too much in to this? When I was in school, I often wondered if shakespeare would have wanted students to analyze him or if he would have preferred we sit back and enjoy the plot for what it is.
No one can be told what the Matrix icon represents, you must experience the Matrix icon for yourself
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
The whole concept of a savior and other ideas mentioned in the article are universal themes, of which both Jesus and Neo are examples. It only seems to Christians like Neo is "Christ like" because they were first exposed to these universal themes through the Jesus example. If Christians whorshipped, for example, Moses instead of Jesus, this article would have been all about how Neo was "Moses like".
have you read any of the documents we base our government on? not to say theyre right, but bush is by far not the first to want that. our nation was founded by protestants. at least try to hide your stupidity
i sell illegal drugs
Any TRUE disciple knows you need to ROT13 first.
hSIL?
Another symbol for Allah?
The number of angels that can dance on a pin?
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Did the guy sit there with a stopwatch, timing all the important events in the film? I think this just shows that it is possible to read more into something than is actually there.
Anyway, according to the Bible, Jesus was dead for two days, not three ("on the third day" = "after two days")
... if somehow you were able to convince the masses there was / is no God. A lot of people simply can't imagine a life with no higher power as being positive, good, or worth living. Others who see the existence of God as keeping them in check would suddenly feel free to break all 10 commandments and enjoy it. So all these people would likely become depressed, suicidal, putting a huge burden on our healthcare system. Or, they might just go bonkers and start killing people, stealing, looting, pillaging, and practising all sorts of heathenous behaviors. Of course, once all these deluded people passed on we could get down to business, but there'd be about a hundred years of rough times. Religion has a purpose in society, even if it has none to you. Largely, it's to make an unbearable life worth living and as universal policeman. And if only for those reasons alone, I tolerate it. I just don't practice it myself.
If you want to completely miss out on the deeper meaning of the movie, then go right ahead, stare at the pretty pictures that flash by your eyes when you're at the movie theater... the rest of us like to do some thinking now and again about what it is we're looking at, and what we can learn from it.
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Getting a "more traditionally religious" view of Christian things from an entity associated with Christian Science is sort of like getting a "traditional Mexican dinner" from Taco Bell. Christian Science is a contemporary "religion" (though some prefer to use the term "tax evasion scam") and has about as much in common with mainstream Christianity as the Backstreet Boys have with Beethoven--alliteration.
I guess it's somewhat interesting, but there are other popular movies out there that make better examples of the "Christian story" than the Matrix. In the realm of sci-fi, we have ET, 2001: A Space Odyssey, and of course Star Wars. If you want some really overt symbolism try watching Cool Hand Luke.
The Wajahowski brothers(can't spell names) also took some visuals from
Dragonballz(look at the twins when they power up) also look at NEO flying. Dragonballz is everywhere in this film.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
It is official; Warner Bros. now confirms: Trinity is dying
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered Matrix fanboy community when the Warshowski Bros. confirmed that Trinity's wank appeal has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all geek porn. Coming on the heels of a recent Natalie Portman survey which plainly states that Trinity has lost more market share of masturbatory fantasies, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. Trinity is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by dead last in the recent "Who do I think of while jerking off" test.
You don't need to be a pasty-faced, anti-social computer nerd to predict Trinity's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Trinity faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for Trinity because Trinity is dying. Things are looking very bad for Trinity. As many of us are already aware, Trinity dies in the end of "Matrix Reloaded." Red blood flows like a river of blood. From her. When she dies.
Nude Trinity is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of her erotic potential. The mannish and unpleasant physique of long time Trinity actress Carrie-Ann Moss only serves to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: Trinity is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
Trinity sycophant Michael states that he has written 7000 fanscripts featuring Trinity. How many people who give a shit about Trinity are there? Let's see. The number of Galadirel versus trinity posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 Trinity fanboys. Trinity in vinyl images on Usenet are about half of the volume of picuters of women shitting on themselves. Therefore there are about 700 losers who fantasize about Trinity being their girlfriend. A recent article put Trinity at about 80 percent of the "jerking off to pictures of distended anuses" market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 total losers still reading at this point. This is consistent with the number of Trinity Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Hollywood, abysmal acting and so on, Trinity was killed off at the end of "Matrix Reloaded" and the role was taken over by a small beagle puppy who conveys emotion better than Moss. Now Trinity is dead, her corpse turned over to the Matrix to be liquified and fed to unsupecting batteries.
All major surveys show that Trinity looks like a post-operative male-female transsexual. Trinity is very hideous and her long term wankability prospects are very dim. If Trinity is to survive at all it will be among Matrix geeks who bought the first one on DVD. Trinity continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save her at this point in time. For all practical purposes, Trinity is dead.
Fact: Trinity is dying at the end of "Matrix Reloaded."
This is kind of of-topic, but what does the Matrix topic icon represents?
one pill
two pill
red pill
blue pill
(Sorry, Dr Seuse)
Finkployd
This is kind of of-topic, but what does the Matrix topic icon represents?
I have looked at it several times and still don't get it.
red and blue pills
How people who initially disagree with something(The Matrix) that chatises their way of life(Organized Religion) do their best to make it seem their way is actually confirmed through it.
If I had time, I could write a equally definitive argument that the Matrix is about personal spirituality and questioning authority and what other's tell you you're perceiving.
But I guess that's what art's about, and sometimes narrowminded people aren't going to change no matter what you show them.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
Seems to me that the history of the 20th century suggests that the most dangerous thing in the world is people who think they have the key to making life for everybody a little slice of heaven.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Why do you keep calling me "Jesus" .. do I look Puerto Rican to you? He didn't say "Jesus", he said "Hey, Zeus." My name is Zeus. You know, Mount Olympus, father of Apollo, don't fuck with me or I'll shove a lightning bolt up your ass, Zeus! You got a problem with that?
I attended a Catholic high school, and as such, I had to take religion classes. Sometimes, we would watch movies in those classes and try to compare & contrast with Catholicism. Unfortunately, the movies we watched included "Man Without a Face" and "Fern Gully". I would much rather have watched "The Matrix" instead.
"If you can see a way through those things and really pick out the good stuff ... any Christian could apply those things to life and grow from it."
Comments like these really make me wonder how a lot of these people think. To observe in this fashion is like looking at reality through a polarized lense polarized to your own personal tastes. Reality consists of many things and to interpret it without recognizing the whole is futile.
Furthermore, it's interesting to note that one of the central messages in The Matrix is that you're living a lie if you refuse to see what's right in front of you just because it doesn't fall within the perceived framework of your reality. "Picking out the good" and only growing from "the good" is what people still jacked in do.
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Um... maybe Trinity thought that it was just an exclamation, and wondered what it was in reference to? Replace "Jesus!" with "Wow!" or "Damn!" and it really doesn't change her reaction much. I'll bet if you go back, you might even find her responding to "Shit!". She doesn't thing she's a pile of excrement, does she?
In fact, you probably do the same thing. If you're somewhere with a person who says "Jesus!", do you think
a) Hey! They mean me!
b) The second coming? Already?
or
c) What would cause them to say that now?
R: That voice. Where have I heard that voice before? B: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
There was the Butlerian Jihad.
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." -The Orange Catholic Bible
Everything else, IMHO is getting bogged down in the details. I see no basic difference between Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Protestants, Southern Baptists, although each would give you a litany of reasons why they're not "real" Catholics or why they're better than the other. Does it really matter? Not to most non-religious people.
dave += sizeof(tool);
7154, eh?
Sigh. At least you didn't go for the obvious 666.
Having read the CSM sporadically over the past few years, they definitely have more "family" oriented articles and the occasional "do the right thing" article which to me, at least (your run of the mill liberal agnostic minority) find preachy and annoying. I guess it's just relative.
The Wajahowski brothers(can't spell names) also took some visuals from
Dragonballz(look at the twins when they power up)
I think your confusing Matrix visuals with Cartman visuals when he is battling Saddam at the end of the Southpark movie.
If at all movie-viewers are looking for a profound message in this movie, which is first and
... any
foremost a highly entertaining, but still just an entertainment nevertheless, one can push and
pull the plots, the names, the numbers and everything else to fit their personal beliefs.
I expected something beyond this in this article and I was deeply disappointed.
Firstly the article just touches upon other interpretations of Matrix other than
that of christianity. Secodnly there is a desparate attempt at bending and mending
the movie to make it fit into Christian dogmas. Even in this, most comments are of the
type "If you can see a way through those things and really pick out the good stuff
Christian could apply those things to life and grow from it." rather than saying what the
profound connection between the movie and christianity except for Nostradamus like
interpretations of Bible which can be made to fit any situation.
I think the biggest thing the author forgot to mention was that the basic theme in itself
conveys the most non-christian message. Since the whole world that we live in is
depicted as a unreal computer program, the concept of God, the evil, good etc in this
world is completely irrelevant since its all just dreamy images. Everything a religion preaches
pales into non-entities in front of the machines who are the real masters of the human race.
DO NOT PANIC
+5, Insightful
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Actually, though the people who came over here were protestants, the actual founding fathers of America were Deists or Atheists. They were attempting to form a non-religious system of government, escaping the tyranny of a faith-based monarchy. Although the words "creator" and whatnot are mentioned within the Declaration, it by no means says anything about having to have this country ruled by christians only...*shudder*. That would be a scary day...oh wait...the Bush cabinet...
~~ Everyone run! All has been found out!
That was one kickass movie
Posting useless rant since 2003.
It seems like the people who think that The Matrix has some revolutionary or revealing philosophy are always the same ones who deride me whenever I mention that they might enjoy reading some of the classic works of philosophy from Plato, Aristotle, Nietzsche, etc. These, and many other philosophers, were the basis for the main ideas presented in The Matrix and delve into the topics in a much more in depth fashion.
Could it just be the typical geek fashion to write off something as worthless if it is not exciting or doesn't have any practical application? I don't know, but I encourage any of you who have shrugged off philosophy but find interest in the philosophy found in The Matrix to try out reading some real philosophy. Philosophy may change the way you view the world and--more importantly--make you think about the world.
Besides the philosophy in The Matrix, there are other geek appealing topics in philosophy. For example, you can find AI in philosophy, and I don't mean from some research paper written by some cognative scientist at MIT. What it means 'to think' and to 'be conscience' have been thought about by some of the most profound thinkers in human history thousands of years ago.
If you are in college, I would recommend taking an introductory survey course in philosophy. If taking courses is not your thing, try reading some of the philosophy books put out by Penguin Classics. Their books generally have understandable translations, provide historical context where needed, and have explainations for the more difficult readings.
And your point? There are way too damned many people as it is anyway...
It would suck for several years, but the long term gains would be worth it...
I can say that with every part of my body that this whole point of view is bullsh-- what's that? My ass has something to say.
My Ass: Actually, I'm not convinced that this kind of thinking is totally without merrit.
Me: Explain
My Ass: Well, the way I see it, part of what makes SciFi films so enjoyable is emersing yourself in their world. By discussing possible parallels with reality, religion, philosophy, and other like issues, you create a greater mood and level of enjoyment.
Me: Yeah, but what about the extemist jerks, like the guy who wrote the article?
My Ass: Well, it's hard to judge someone who writes for a living. He has to be constantly filling up pages with ideas-- I'm sure a lot of them come out as more meaningful sounding then his own opinion of the matter, he can't exactly say "isn't it cool to think about it this way, even though it's kind of silly". Anyway, a lot of these people don't really think through what they're writing, they just put it on paper.
Me: You make a good point. I still don't condone serious debate without satire on issues like this, but I at least understand it better. I can understand where these ideas come from, but the jerks who peddle them as intellectual debate instead of just having fun are ass-- I mean dickheads.
My Ass: Yeah, that's what your mom said.
Me: Look, that doesn't even make any sense.
. . .
"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." -Philips
Sure, the Matrix is blasphemously co-opting Christ's passion to sell cherry pepsi and black trenchcoats.
However, this is nothing new.
Seriously, the similarities between this CSM article and the joke pieces at landover baptist are stunning. Satire is rendered irrelevant.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
Thanks,
...
BTW, somehow to my eyes they look like a couple of donuts more than anything else
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.
So, you are saying that religion is the real-life Matrix? "Designed to keep us under control...". Damn, I think I just figured out the REAL meaning behind the movie!
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Someboday say with me:
"promotional material touted as news"
"an apology to the Matrix analyses on the web touted as having something that we have missed before"
"sell out"
That "sell out" includes Moderators also -- I see not more than one comment that indicates outrage at the news-worthlessness of this or its lameness.
You may know about Jesus (real or not) but the majority of the human race is not christian and it seems rather egocentric to imply such.
So, that's supposed to be a well hidden subtext?
The symbolism is about as subtle as a sledgehammer hitting a fly, not that this makes it a bad movie. (The messiah symbolism in Dune is also not a "hidden subtext.")
Neo is more like David than Jesus, if you look at the Bible, anyway.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
"Battlefield Earth" that led to it's criticism. It was the "This is so bad I want to place bricks in front of my eyes and ears to ensure that no more of this phenomenally stupid, boring, ugly, painful, moronic, failed attempt at filmmaking will infect me further." nature of the film that led to most of the criticism. Talk about WMDs!
Most of the posts I have read have been either making fun of the article, making fun of the concept of God, or making fun of the people who believe in God. Why?
Secondly, why is it so difficult to believe in God? Science has not proven anything in the Bible to be untrue. In fact, when outrageous attempts are made to prove the Bible wrong, they end up proving it correct. An example of this is the great flood of Noah. When they discovered there actually was a layer of underwater "silt" around the period the story comes from, and when they discovered similar stories in other cultures, they only showed that the Bible was correct.
Thirdly, people say the Big Bang Theory proves God doesn't exist. How? Scientists will tell you that the theory only explains what happened from 2 seconds after the blast and forward, but does not explain what happened within that first 2 seconds... or even before that two seconds. Also, the theory believes that the universe was created by some atoms rubbing together which caused the explosion? Where did these atoms come from if there was *nothing* before the Big Bang? Finally, on this note, theories are not laws. Theories are ideas which sound plausable, but have not been proven.
Forthly, whether or not the creators of the Matrix intended for the movie to mimic any religious text or story, the fact is that anyone who writes or directs gets ideas about the story from their own life. If religion was a great part of the writers' lives growing up, it would make sense that there would be religious themes in the movie.
Fifthly (and finally)... mod me down, since it'll probably happen anyway.
Christian groups like to talk about "The Matrix" and "The Lord of the Rings" because they're very popular movies that include a lot of religious symbolism and draw on theology for their themes and stories. This is well and good. It's always hard to get people to talk about religion when they're not in the habit of it, especially when they're not very informed on the facts of Christianity or any other major religion.
What I have problems with is when people hold up these films as proof of their creators' intentions to promote particular religions. The "Star Wars" films have been accused, off and on, of promoting "New Age" religion and spirituality. "The Matrix" relies on Buddhist beliefs and themes as much as Christian ones, if not more. And I still can't understand why the Christian right touts "The Lord of the Rings" as a brilliantly disguised retelling of the Gospels (which it wasn't) while the "Harry Potter" books are vilified for encouraging witchcraft and occult interests (which they aren't).
All of these are works of fiction, not of faith. They use a variety of religious themes together to make their story more interesting to viewers, often in ways that's not immediately obvious. But religious sorts should be careful to take these stories as they are and not assume too much about the creators' intents.
I thought god was 31337
Some of them were protestants. Some of them were deists. It would be inaccurate to suggest that there was any sort of religous unanimity among them.
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Unfortunately, you leave yourself as closed minded, if not more so, than the people you are chastising. There may be a god (lowercase), but since he/she/it is intangible by the classic definition of tangibility, for now some people choose to take a knowledge of him/her/it on faith. For the majority of people, though, they misinterpret a belief in God (uppercase) as knowledge that, gosh darn it, he's real! Exceptions go out to those people who have had close encounters of the divine kind, whom we may choose to believe or not.
I think to truly discover a faith in some higher power, you must code a MUD. After having completed that task, you will have a much better understanding of how difficult it must have been to create the intermingling rules of the REAL universe.
--trb
Neo is just his persona, and as Neo he has no last name.
"Damn near every problem in the world today can be traced back to a belief in a higher power."
No, but people have often used religion as an EXCUSE for what they do. Often the conflicts over religion are really about economic or other social issues. Without religion, people would generally do the same things they do now, but with different justifications (political beliefs for instance)
Incidentally, the affirmation that there couldn't possibly be a god is a statement of faith. Despite the fact that you have no way of knowing this, you devoutly believe it and prostletize others that they may be saved. Enjoy your religion!
You can find interesting articles about The Matrix's philosophic and religious background right on the official site. Enjoy.
Prescriptive grammar:linguistics
I guess we'll have to watch Thursday and find out. But seriously, it's possible this could be another interpretation of the trilogy. It just depends on if Neo really is the One or if it is exposed as a sham. Needless to say I'd be pretty happy if at the end of Revolutions we find out all the prophecy and "one" stuff was a giant crock.
if you want "No More Hiroshimas" then I say "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."
Linus is a god, but not the God.
Nal GEHR qvfpvcyr xabjf lbh arrq gb EBG13 svefg.
BS pbhefr, gung znxrf ab qvssrerapr ba ahzoref...
Tom Anderson was the old guy who lived next to Beavis & Butthead.
Help me. I'm replying to messags on Slashdot. Once I start down this dark path, forever will it dominate my destiny... :-)
I'd posit that calling oneself "Christian" means three things:
1) Belief that Christ is the son of God;
2) Belief that not only is Christ the son of God, but that he also IS God;
3) Belief that only by recognizing oneself as a sinner and accepting Christ's sacrifice on one's behalf can one be saved
Any definition of Christianity that has "Jesus is the son of God" without the other two is incomplete. If you just define it that way, without the other two, then you include religions like Mormonism, which is very much NOT a Christian religion (Jesus and God are a literal father/son pair and are not two aspects of the same being; and most everyone except a few blatant heretics gets to experience the heavenly afterlife).
You might want to read this and this before making a claim like that. The highlights are:
- "The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma." - Abraham Lincoln
- "As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity. " - Benjamin Franklin
- "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." - Thomas Jefferson
- "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." - Thomas Paine
The truth is that the USA was founded as a secular nation. That's why the treaty of tripoli that we signed explicitly states that revisionist history by fundamentalist Christians doesn't change the truth"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
Opiate of the masses, according to Marx.
Rhapsody in Numbers
yes you would but how can we progress if *everything* we do is based in general on a society that believes in what is essentially a lie ? is it worthwhile to have a brief period of anarchy compensate for stupid restrictions on research (like banning cloning or stem cell research...as if nature doesnt clone already with twins or use stem cells for generating organs) ?
and realistically for those of us who don't believe in god or a higher power (like you, me and a large majority of slashdot and the scientific community) is life really that unbearable ? even if we dont believe in souls, afterlife or any of that bullshit and believe the human brains disintegrates and death is permanent, i dont see anyone here slashing their wrists or going beserk anytime soon. if youre intelligent enough to accept it, you can live with it.
knowledge should be shared. educating the average joe that religion is a sham is a worthwhile endeavor IMHO. even if we do get a hundred years of chaos, science will progress at a much faster rate than it does now and the average person's level of intelligence will rise as they become more interested in real progress rather than the buy-the-new-flashy-toy-you-mindless-sheeple model. lowest common denominator will only carry you so far....eventually the human race will *have* to grow up and become mature...or become extinct either way, like all the other civilizations before us (mayans, sumerians, etc etc).
Besides, the Matrix borrows more from easter religions than it does from western ones, comparisons between Neo and Jesus notwithstanding (OK, and now I feel soiled).
This paragraph shows everything that is wrong with the close-mindedness of traditional organized religion:
... any Christian could apply those things to life and grow from it."
The film's bullet-laden violence and strong language, along with Eastern religious influences, she acknowledges, are unsettling to some Christians. But she has high hopes for the sequels. "If you can see a way through those things and really pick out the good stuff
Right, because a Christian applying so Buddhist ideals to life would help them grow at all, right? C'mon, open your damn minds already.
_sig_ is away
I see a lot more in common with all these difference sects of Christianity than differences. That's all I am saying. I see no point in getting all hot and heavy with another Christian group just because they think abortion is okay or women should be ministers. I simply don't think that's worth getting all annoyed about.
I do it because I'm afraid of the law and more importantly because looting, raping and killing is just plain wrong!
"Yes, but why is it wrong," they'll say. "Because God said so," is one answer. Another is Scalable Behaviors. Just ask youself, "what would happen if everybody ______," filling in the questionable behavior. Let's take looting, one of your examples.
What would happen if everybody looted? Well, every shop would be quickly destroyed, and it would be impossible to have shops. So, if everybody looted, commerce would crumble, and everybody would be unable to purchase what they needed. OK, put a check in the 'Bad' column next to looting - it's not a scalable behavior. Continue on down your list.
You can pretty much derive the last nine commandments, the golden rule, the sane parts of criminal law, etc. from this one simple test. You can build a society on it and you don't necessarily need a religion to keep people in order. Of course, the prerequsite for people being able to live according to this test is an educated populous, schooled in the ways of logical analysis, but we're pretty much there, and only for the first time in history.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Christian nor Science
I wonder if this is part of the reason behind the use of the name Nebuchadnezzar in the story. The mixture of humans (clay) and machines (iron) is certainly reminiscent of his dream.
"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." -- G. K. Chesterton
I guess I missed that Gospel where Jesus talks about "Guns, lots of guns".
this amy be true, but reducing the number of people will cause more problems than it solves. Look at what happened during the 14th century in europe: Plague killed off ~20 % of the population. People starved to death because they were too sick to plow the field, and there werent enough well people to make up the difference. Entire towns died, the economy collapsed etc, etc. Similar thing is beginning to happen in africa today with aids. People are too sick to work, too sick to farm, and so they are literally starving to death because they cant do anything to get food. Even given all that, declining populations cant support growing ecconomies without miraculous increases in productivity, and increases in productivity arent as likely because there are simply less people to be innovative and come up with new ideas. What if thomas edison had died in a riot at age 10? What if newton had been killed by the plague? Yes there are risks of having a large and growing population, overuse of land, overuse of resources, etc but ultimately, if somone is running out of something,, this gives a large incentive to come up with a way to either xtend the resource or find a new resource to do the same thing. We dont use beavers for coats and hats anymore, we dont use whale oil for lamps anymore etc. Neccesity is the mother of invention.
I say if you read into something you'll always find what you want to find.
In my eyes it sugests that we all rebel and over throw the powers to be, with kung-fu.
-makoffee
There is method to your madness... If god is all good and all powerful/perfect, how the hell did the evil snake get into the garden of eden?! It was a reference point to create a duality.
... at least that's one explanation.
God needed night and day, right and wrong.
--------
Free your mind.
That's only because they were raised that way.
You could just as well see some polytheist saying the same thing about people forgoing all thier complementary Gods for just one.
I think what you mean is that human beings tend to need something to cling to - we like the idea of faith, and we need some sort of concience enhancer. Some people choose God, others choose science, still others choose ideals about humanity, etc. But the idea that the only way to reap these benefits with with a God is cultural arrogrance (or the result of cultural blinders).
_sig_ is away
What, as opposed to the happy shiny people that are running around now?
Disclaimer: MINAA (Mummy! I'm Not An Animal!)
Does Matrix ripoff other movies like DarkCity
Did Dark City rip off an old role-playing supplement called Flight 13? I know its a stretch, but if you ever play this GURPS adventure it is quite similar to Dark City, right down to the final twist. So, who did Flight 13 ripoff? Where does it end?
... getting back to the film, and what you said, think about this: Is living in the Matrix worth it if it's all a lie? compared to: Is believing in a higher power, a religion, worth it if it's all a lie? If it makes you a better person? Who cares if it's all a sham, ultimately, if it makes you be nice and not lie, steal, kill etc? Or would we be better off in a world where nobody believed any lies and just did whatever the heck they wanted and maybe they would rise to believe in something else and just do things out of some innate human decency ... not because some priest told them to. In other words, in the absence of religion, would humanity descend into absolute chaos / anarchy and die? My cynical nature says it would. Granted, I see living "a lie" and having religion still produces a fair amount of killing and stupid crap because of religion, but I see it as the lesser of two evil. And, to conclude, would I rather be living in the Matrix, eating the steak that tastes like steak but I know it's not steak ... you know, compared with the crappy post apocalyptic no sky people living in bathtubs world ... give me the matrix any day.
Yknow, I'm half serious about this, but take a look at paxil or prozac. Maybe someone can make a mood enhancer drug that gives you the capacity to be okay with life in the absence of God.
And no, I'm not talking about a red or blue pill ... or am I?
Most movies cover basic themes: "who are we?", "where are we going?", "how do we overcome that problem?", "do these pants make my ass look too fat?". Themes that are common to most religions. Themes that are so engrained into us via our cuilture that they are universal. Because of this anyone of any faith can read into these movies what they want.
Added to this is that most of us are so steeped in our own belief systems/faiths that we have a very hard time NOT seeing the world around us through the filters of our beliefs. Every tree and flower is proof of God's power to a Chrsitian and proof of the complexity and subtlety of nature to an Athiest. Same flower and tree, different filter.
Combine these to factors with a movie that does not make a "this film is about religion X" statement and anyone can use said film project their own faith and glean meaning from it. If you REALLY want to see examples of this, look up some writings about "The Shawshank Redemption".
Is this wrong? I don't know. I find it silly, bit I can't really say that finding wisdom, no matter how unintended, in a film is wrong. I mean, a very good friend of mine found the wisdom to give up wishing for success and actively started to persue his dream after watching "Harold and Maude". Was this silly? Not for him.
As a strugling (and frsutrated writer) I have had people glean meanings from my work that I know damned well I didn't put in.
I did have a point when I started this post...
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
This has always been the most dangerous thing, and it has gone all the way back to the ancient Greeks... they called it hubris, thinking you're better than god.
Improve the world, make life better, etc and you usually fall from the extreme arrgoance.
--------
Free your mind.
... if they see themselves as Christians or not. I'm sure the answer will amuse you.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0503/matrixrelo aded.html
Choice quotes:
Before transforming into Satan, Reeves' character was named Thomas Anderson to reflect his status as a "Doubting Thomas," someone skeptical of the Lord's Word.
[...]
Upon becoming the Devil, he is renamed "Neo," which literally means "new" and is a prefix for words that reflect new ideas, another attack on Christian thinking.
"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
The word "christian" in the title of a true journalisitic product may actually be a hidden "blessing"...
The name provides constant reminder to follow the straight and narrow path of journalism, simply from the standpoint that from the very name, one *expects* it NOT to be real journalism.
Clever insight? or clever mistake? You decide.
(Taken from evilfinder.)
From the Mormon website: Question: Are you Christians? Answer: Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said: "We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. So y'know, who's right, you or the Mormons? Pardon me while I get out of the way ...
I just read a fascinating (but somewhat heavy going for the layperson) paper by a professor of Philosophy inspired by the Matrix - I think someone actually linked to it from a previous /. Matrix story. There are lots of similar hypotheses to the idea that we are all brains in vats (or bits in a computer simulation.) For instance, if the god-botherers are right after all and there's a big guy with a white beard and we're all just figments of his imagination, how is this different from the Matrix? What about the Wolfram cellular automata work (and other less well-known work in the same field)? What about advances in cosmology and physics?
/.ers to similar material received with thanks :)
Any pointers from
See also http://www.simulation-argument.com.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
...had many religous overtones.
The most obvious was, of course, the Hasidic Jews (sp?) trying to translate the Koran, but there were many others.
Tai Chi is performed in the park during an early scene.
The processor Max Cohen obtained was called a "mean mecca".
A restated assumption: "Mathmatics is the language of nature" implies that math itself is a religon or meta-religon
Prolly some other religous references that I missed or forgot.
Pi is a good low-budget movie for those that like math, with a good soundtrack for those that like techno. Yeah - I'm waaay offtopic. Sorry
Oh please. ET was Old Yeller except that this time Old Yeller doesn't really die.
red pill, blue pill
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
Witnessing death, experiencing loss, loosing friends, disappointment, illness and injury, war, violence, abuse, injustice, failure, deprivation, loneliness. In short - life.
Life may be easy for you, but its very hard for others, so try not to be so dismissive when talking about how they cope with it.
While a strong belief in a god creates a false sense of security, the belief that a god does not exist serves to reject outright that false sense.
I can't speak for the parent poster, but I personally don't believe there is a god. I don't much care one way or the other, but until there is some proof available about a god, I'll go on assuming there isn't one because I think that's the safest approach.
If proof was found that no god exists (pretend that is possible :-), religious people everywhere would be going crazy and committing suicide and all sorts of bad things.
If proof was found that a god does exist, non-religious people everywhere would say something to the affect of 'huh... whadya know about that!'
Big difference!
I think that's the big reason. If you read the Bible literally there's a lot of dry stuff. Insane family trees, people living till 400, who's being flogged, who begat whom, where you can spill your seed etc. There isn't a whole lot of Britney Spears, Playstation 2 or NBA going on in there. So it seems so much of Christianity today is trying to prove (and sometimes grasping at straws) as to why this story from hundreds of years ago has any relevance to today. Or, why people should be spending their Sundays in Church instead of rushing out to see the Matrix for the fifth time.
it's kind of like a video game, if you always have godmode on it's never really as fun as it is when you've got a set of rules to work with. maybe God wanted to do things the hard way because it's more rewarding.
I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you
Don't confuse ethics with religious dogma. There are plenty of occurrences of murder, theft, looting and rape that are *motivated* by religious beliefs. It can make peoples lives unbearable, as much as giving others hope. Many other people (most athiests in fact) will continue to make decisions based on an ethical framework with the good of the individual and society in mind. With no need for deities.
Have you deified your own karma?
Why didn't you start the post as yourself?
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
You mean, people usally prefer the blue pill. I have to agree with this.
No, it's Stan. Fucking dyslexics...
I don't know why you think an affirmation is only a statement of logic. That certainly isn't the sense in which I used the word. Beyond that, if it is a statement of logic, it must be based on premises, which may be incorrect. Or are you saying that its a tautology?
Amen to that!
So...religion is, like, the opiate of the masses or something.
--
bachiatari na torisetsu o yome!
All I'm saying, is, as far as I'm concerned, everyone who claims to "Christian" be they Mormon, Protestant, what have you, believe that Christ was a very important person and what he said is worth believing in. That's all. Tell me how this line of logic is wrong. Do you not believe Christ was a good person? The son of god? Everything else you write about Catholic, Orthodox, personal relationship makes no difference to me. I don't think believeing whether or not Christ is the son of god or if he rose from the dead is important. That's just a niggling detail as far as I'm concerned (and most agnostics would agree, I hate to tell you).
And I do take issue with your last paragraph. I do think a Canadian might be offended if he were called an American, but only if he holds this fact: He does not think highly of Americans. So if a Catholic gets offended if a Mormon is called a Christian, then it's because he doesn't think very highly of Mormons. And THAT superiority complex is something that bugs me to no end.
More recent films, from "Signs" to "Contact" have used a sci-fi setting to discuss serious questions of faith.
Why is this true? Because science and religion are closely entwined--if not the same thing. They are both the search for the truth. There is a reason so many scientific discoveries were made by priests and monks
At some point, the major religions lost the bit about the search, and decided the truth had been found. I think science, as Contact points out, must also acknowledge that not everything is knowable.
This is what is what's is so disturbing about "the origin of the species through evolution" and "creationism" debate where it seems each considers the other "blasphemous". They aren't really so mutually exclusive.
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
The serpent was a temp employee and has been dealt with accordingly. Sorry for the mistake... ;)
and the village voice just came out with an article in a similar vein today:
;-P
Hacking the 'Matrix' Master Code
favorite quote:
Consider the messianic thread of "The One." As much as we all like a good Christian allegory, 'The Matrix' doesn't decode like 'The Old Man and the C Drive'. When I asked Laurence Fishburne, who plays Morpheus, if he followed the first flick's philosophy, he announced he'd mused plenty in his life about "all that, you know, spiritual fucking voodoo fucking mumbo jumbo kind of shit."
lol
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I mean, come on. There are plenty of people who do not believe in God who seem to believe that Not Believing in God is the One True Path, and that everyone else is a poor sheep who have strayed from the Truth. I see this as no different from someone who believes in a God and that all others should come and see the Truth. The atheist believes in nothing, while the other believes in a supernatural being. It's still belief, and it's still invoking a suggestion of superiority due to that belief, as well as making the assumption that what is true for you must be true for everyone.
Let people believe what they want as long as they do not interfere with others abilities to believe what they want. What someone believes, in the end, is not important. Only the actions taken based on that belief. Attack poor actions - not beliefs.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
And you are a loser for doing so, proving that you are an unitelligent seed plugged into the destructible Matrix. Your days are numbered fiend.
This is the second story from a "Christian Science" author I've see in a week here on Slashdot.
I would love to know what relevance articles on religious philosophy have to a technology and geek news site. Some people may find this stuff interesting, but Slashdot shouldn't be posting "Christian science" articles on the frontpage while meanwhile rejecting far more relevant and substantive article submissions.
Moderator hint: a comment is neither "Flamebait" nor "Troll" if it is true.
I myself am an agnostic. Smug athiests alwasy get a rise out of me because they have the same sense of certainty that the religious have.
;)
"I don't much care one way or the other, but until there is some proof available about a god, I'll go on assuming there isn't one because I think that's the safest approach."
Familiar with Pascal's Wager? Sorry, just being a devil's advocate...err god's advocate.
" If proof was found that a god does exist, non-religious people everywhere would say something to the affect of 'huh... whadya know about that!'"
Depends. If the proof was in the form of angry dieties, fiery lakes etc I doubt they'd be so circumspect
I might be feeding the trolls here, but since some reasonable people have said variants on this theme, let's try a variant or two...
"If you are trying to learn from a book designed for entertainment, then..."
Holy crap! There goes literature. Whoops, so much for high school english classes reading the classics.
"If you are trying to learn from a piece of music designed for entertainment, then..."
Well, hell. I guess I can't learn anything about musical styles and chording from anything other than example pieces specifically designed for music theory classes.
Any creative work is going to have the potential for underlying deeper meanings. And if you enjoy finding them, more power to yah. If you don't, and just like being spoon-fed, that's fine too. But quit flaming the people who like a bit of depth, even if they have to make it themselves.
"America has done some terrible things. But I know that Americans don't cheer when innocents die." -Dave Barry
Is RMS behind this?
"Next we have the sexual criminals... (stuff cut) ...No, not those people. The rapists and child molesters... those hopeless romantics. We could just ban religion, and those crimes would go away in a generation or two, but we don't have time for rational solutions"
I'm not shy, I'm stalking my prey
Did you know that the Reloaded movie can be seen on Wednesday the 14th (10:00 PM) in some theatres? I got my tickets in advance for that show
New year Resolution: Don't change sig this year
Personally, I am impressed by the themes and symbols interwoven in slashdot. For instance, look at the name itself. "Slash"--in ancient Latin this implies a decrease and "dot"---Greek for really small. This implies the quest for the ever smaller, to look beyond minutia with a trained eye. Buddhist if I ever saw it. Then, there is all the bad spelling and grammer, even found in this post. This is the Post-modern idea that we live in an imperfect world, and there is nothing we can do to fix it. But, oh, the Christian irony since spell checkers do exist and we can be saved if only you take the effort to love what is beyond yourself. Oh, I could go on. And, if I was an English major, I would. But to suffice it to say, if you have a million philosophers look at something for a million hours, they will find it to be profound, no matter what it is. As Frued could have said, "Sometimes a posting is just a posting." -Iowa
"He who laughs last, didn't get the joke."-Cap
Balance this possible outcome with the reality of how many people religious beliefs kill and it looks pretty good even in the short term.
I agree with this to the degree that some people do read too much into these things. And trust me, I'm not proposing that people take the "philospohy" of The Matrix as their rules to live by, but many people are only watching half the movie if they refuse to see that their is some symbolic meaning to what is happening on screen.
Does that new Matrix icon look like a blue mouth sticking it's tongue out at you?
If your bitterest enemies are people who hack the heads off civilians, then I would say you're doing something right.
I love Sherlock Holmes, I can almost name the story for any quote, well almost ... and I can understand amusing oneself trying to put the stories in chronologial order, figure out the named but unwritten mysteries, etc., but the Baker Street Irregulars take it so far as to be obsessed into thinking that inconsistencies are intentional by Watson to throw readers off the track, to postulate printer errors, etc. You've got to know where to draw the line.
Infuriate left and right
if(JesusExists)
Christian Science = !Biology
Else
TheJewsWereRight = true;
Vonal Declosion
There is nothing either cultist or ritualistic about Christian Science practice. Perhaps an investigation into the faith would better help you understand why they call it a science -- and help you save face in the process...
And that is exactly my point. Who am I to say that just because I didn't put a spark of wisdom in my work that people can not find wisdom there? Yeah, it bugged the crap out of me when a class full of other writing students found religious wisdom in a grand farce I wrote, but who am I to tell them they can't enrich themselves?
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
That's what the author of that article is. Numerology?? For pity's sake! There is a point where you should stop looking for easter eggs and hidden meaning and enjoy the show.
Eat at Joe's.
Blaise Pascal (the Pascal that the language was named for, so yes, this is a "nerd post" :-) asked centuries ago, "Are you better off if you act as if there is a God, whether or not there actually is?"
This question is generally called Pascal's Wager, and the answer he came to was, "Yes."
-Dejaffa
There is no 'i' in team, but there is in fiasco...
There are other, older movies than The Lord of the Rings and The Matrix that can map to Christian symbolism.
Examples:
In the first Conan the Barbarian movie, Conan is tied to a tree (crucified), dies, and then rises from the dead.
In ET, ET performs various miracles, dies (or seems dead, I haven't seen it in a while) and then Ascends into the heavens. Before he leaves he says to Eliot that he would be with him always in Eliot's heart (soul).
Also there were the adds for the movie which are imitations of Michalangelo's Creation of Adam where God gives Adam life by touching his outstretched finger.
Another little one is in some versions of Blade Runner (depends on which cut of the movie you see), at the end Roy, the last replicant, is malfunctioning, his muscles are locking up. He takes a big, ugly looking nail and shoves it through his palm to get his hands working again. This is meant to remind you of the crucification and make you feel that his death is unfair.
Roy also releases a dove when he dies. A dove is the symbol for the Holy Spirit, it could represent the idea that he has a soul, which,as a replicant he is not supposed to have, or it could mean that he is a Christ figure.
Anyway, this sort of thing is common in all entertainment, especially with the kind you can watch more than once. Each time you watch it you pick up another level of meaning (only some of which may be religious).
First Slashdot Post, I had to do it
Step 1: You surf the web and gather info about The Matrix, then write a story on it.
Step 2: I'll submit it to slashdot
Step 3: Profit!!
...and it was Extreme and Fresh, Dog.
Have you seen MTV's adds for MTV? It does a fair amount of preaching to the converted.
The message they offer kids isn't only, "Get your entertainment here! Hurry, while it's hot." They preach that the kids can not only make a difference, but that the future lies in their hands. Maybe a glowing box telling kids that they're the chosen people isn't as religious as a burning bush without endorsments, but it appeals to the same aspect of humanity: A hope for a better tomorrow.
That's not really necessary. If they describe themselves as a religion, that's all I need to know.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
You first. I'll off myself if you do.
Really.
Trust me.
As regards parent posts: you're willing to off some immense portion of humanity - let's be very conservative, and say at least 50% - just to get rid of religious belief? You really need to pause and re-think your moral system.
Funny, the allegory I saw in the Matrix was capitalism. The humans in their pods are the wage slaves and the machines living off them are the capitalist elite. The matrix is the corporate media working to hide the true nature of their situation from slaves and keep them distracted and entertained. The agents are the police using violence to control those you question the system. This all works on many levels since the "reality" that the matrix is simulating is a capitalist society itself.
While it is likely that this allegory is "probably inadvertent" seeing as Hollywood is part of the Matrix of the real world and not prone to spreading such thoughtcrime, it may be that the original idea came from someone who had this allegory in mind and some of it has survived in the Wachowski brothers script.
In addition the all the religious conections the film also seems to appeal to fans of Nietzsche, so perhaps in the end the reason for its popularity is that it has something for everyone in it and it is subtle enough not to push any of its possible messages down anyones throat.
So when you screw up how many "continues" do you have? ;)
--------
Free your mind.
Let's not rely on the author's math abilities. If he's in apartment 101, I don't take it to mean he "the one", I take it to mean he's "the five".
This is about as in depth as I go with the religious aspect of it. I think any religious undertones are meant solely to confuse those who think that they are on the 'inside track' when it comes to finding 'truth' and 'the word of god' working in 'mysterious ways.' come on people, any similarity to events or characters real or ficitional is purely to suck the money out of your wallet. I'm sure it's intentional, and there is no official reference to any particular religion because that way, you might be dumb enough to think that they are talking about YOUR religion, and that finally someone in hollywood is doing the 'right thing' for good reasons other than money. Get real.
Speak for yourself.
Of course, the one true religion is the Presleyite Disciples, or "Elvites." I was dissapointed that there was nothing at all in The Matrix about Elvis.
How ya like dat?
Neo reluctantly accepts his mission to free the human race.
Ooooh. If only i could I would fly out of this godsforsaken cubicle on the 39th floor and free the rats of downtown areas everywhere!
Then proceed to toture my boss...
Maybe I'll just stick to entreprenuership.
Be an atheist, I don't care. Just don't try and pretend you're superior to non-atheists because of your beliefs, or that you're somehow morally superior because of it.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
...
7154: Prophet!
Campbell's thesis is not particularly religious, but rather that groups of people create similar myths. Campbell, like Jung, arrives at this conclusion through comparative mythology.
That the same archetypes should emerge in the dominant storytelling medium of the day--sci fi movies--is not surprising. Believe it or not, Hollywood draws heavily on Joe Campbell, all the time . Even the fact that Hollywood stories are so formulaic is evidence of this: there's always The Hero, The Trickster, The Seductress, The Higher Power, etc. It's the very familiarity of these archetypes that make these modern-day myths so compelling.
Most Hollywood movies, however, stay within the conventions of the archetypes and their stories, rather than raising questions about art, artifice, consciousness, myth and reality. Hollywood movies work within dramatic and myth-making conventions, whereas The Matrix is about getting behind and beyond the masks, which is what is so fascinating about it. The Matrix chooses Gnostic Christian forms for its own mask, rather than the forms we're more familiar with from schul , catechism class, Sunday School, etc. The choice of gnostic forms allows them to get much closer to eastern philosophies, while dodging doctrinal disputes. Skillful means, grasshopper.
One thing I was surprised to see undiscussed in the CSM article was really the central theme of the Matrix, and also the unifying principle in all religions: compassion. The AI simulacra, The Smiths, lack compassion, and his is what makes them, and the artificial world they have constructed, so inhuman, so terrifying and so inhumane.
The "is it live, or is it Memorex" debate is begging the question, really. It duss jusn't matter. Also, I wish that they'd used Peter Gabriel's song Mercy Street just once.
You're completely wrong, it's utterly Evil!
**** THE PROOF THAT The Matrix IS EVIL ****
T H E M A T R I X
84 72 69 77 65 84 82 73 88 - as ASCII values
3 9 6 5 2 3 1 1 7 - digits added
\_____/ \_____/ \_____/ \_____/ \_/
3 2 5 2 7 - digits added
Thus, "The Matrix" is 32527.
Turn the number backwards, and add 11 - the symbol of judgment and disorder. The number is now 72534.
Divide the number by 002 - this is the symbol of greed, backwards. It gives 36267.
Subtract 1789, the year of French Revolution, a bloody farce engineered by the Illuminati. The result will be 34478.
Subtract 9291 from the number - this is the year Bingo was invented, taking many lives in years to come, written backwards. It gives 25187.
Subtract 1977, the year Elvis left the planet. The result will be 23210.
This, when read backwards, gives 01232. This is 666 in octal, the number of the Beast...
Evil, QED.
Courtesy of the Evil Finder at http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/evilfinder/
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
That's quite possibly the lamest thing I've ever heard. Why follow the teachings of some guy? Are you so weak and stupid you can't figure out right and wrong yourself?
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
Think, write, think, edit, think...then post.
It takes a good man to acknowledge what works best for himself.
It takes an even greater man to acknowledge that there are more solutions to a problem than his own.
I'm an Atheist, and while I laugh at the truly insane (that is, those that will believe in anything to support their viewpoints) I certainly think there is room for religion in the life of others, without it making them silly.
I had a good time explaining this to the last set of Jehovah's Witnesses that came a-knocking. I guess they were surprised that an atheist could appreciate a reasonable approach to religion, and that an Atheist would say the bible, on the whole, is a decent guide to life (however, I do feel it has its mistakes).
I guess what I'm trying to say is "Don't knock other religions before you see the results of most people practicing them".
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
"Those who hold beliefs based on observations and deduction do not see it as faith. That is one of the points made in the Matrix (Sorry to wander back on topic.)"
When you're speaking of things beyond the realm of observation, you can't make any deductions. It may be that there is nothing beyond the realm of observation, but that unknowable by definition.
Following you back onto the topic however, I have to disagree that thats one of the points of the movie. Trusting observation (ie the senses) is what keeps you in the matrix. Those who escape the matrix are following a vague feeling of discontent...listening to their intuition. Its suggesting a reality beyond appearances.
Yes, but that in and of itself is short sighted. Im saying that large percentages of the human population dying would cause a dark age of indetermanite length (probably ~1000 years) If the price of avoiding a thousand years of human misery is thinking up new ways to protect the environment or cure aids or SARS or Ebola while allowing population to increase, than thats what weve got to do.
And even if every human on earth died would that really be so bad?
You go first. ;-)
Damn..where are all my mod points when I really need them...
Neo, I think, is just an anagram of 'One'... as in He Is The One.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newletter.
why run from Vincenzo?
Or you could just think that some guy got it right...
Did you derive every thing you believe for yourself, or did you follow the teachings of others?
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
My redhat cluster
cluter alias matrix
[root@trinity root]# uptime
2:49pm up 10 days, 23:10, 1 user, load average: 0.02, 0.01, 0.00
[root@neo root]# uptime
2:47pm up 8 days, 4:15, 1 user, load average: 0.11, 0.11, 0.09
Got Code?
This is a case of Matrix overloaded and short circuit in the writer's brain.
"Lofty Metaphysics"??
Puh-lease! Lofty if you're a precious 16 year old!
Oh way, this is the work of a matrix fan, nevermind...
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
Well, yeah, the WHY is all about philosophy - the intangibles.
But I see no reason why that must be wrapped into an organized religion, let alone an organized theist religion.
For instance, a Christian might thing that they must live a virtuous life to get into heaven. A humanist might believe in the inherent goodness in humanity and that to make thier life worthwhile, they must do enough good things for others that their legacy will be a better world. A scientist might view the discovery of knowledge as an end in and of itself. A capitalist might think the same thing about money. And Frank The Village Nut might spend his whole life tending after the dandelions in the park because he thinks they are beautiful and must be protected - who knows.
But in all those cases - organized, religious, spiritual, or very personal (ala Frank), that person would have the potential to live a useful, productive life with a meaning that "did it" for them.
That at least answers the WHY question in terms of "what purposeful pursuit should I use to guide me life, and why?". The aspect of the question "What has caused our existence and conciousness to come about" - that aspect I would argue has no bearing on actually living your life. I have strong, personal, always evolving ideas about how and why to live my life (culled from different philosophies, religions, life experiences, examples of people I love and respect, etc), but I couldn't give a shit WHY we're all here - I'll never know even close to conclusivly, and it really has no bearing on what I do with my life.
_sig_ is away
No mention of how Neo popping Agent Smith at the end in the article!
Let God into your heart in and evil gets vanquished. Poof.
I'm also surprised that there's no mention of Neo (as well as all the other Matrixians) being an immaculate conception. Presumably, everyone in the Matrix is born without the original sin, right?
-- Dossy
Dossy's Blog
So, you are afraid of losing your karma? What is with you? Did you not have faith in mankind to save your karma? People make me sick here. If you have something to say, say it with who you are. Stand up and be counted. Do not let the world tell you what to believe.
Or cower behind an AC post, making pot shots at others.
Norris/Palin 2012
Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
Searching for this book on Google gave this:
I can heartily recommend the book (having only read the German translation, alas) and definitely the 1973 TV-serialization (well, two parts, total duration 205 minutes according to imdb) if you can find it. This is one book I would not be surprised if I opened it one day to reread it, only to find all text has disappeared - deleted.
As for the Matrix (reloaded or not), I don't think I will bother. No amount of Kung Foo can be a match for the psychological mindbending acting by Klaus Loewitsch under Fassbinder's direction.
With ID4 being a remake of the 1950'es movie version of WotW, itself being a mediocre US-centric movie-rendition of H.G. Wells' classic, and so on and so forth, I am coming to the conclusion that good sf has not really been made since the 70'es.
By all means, prove me false.
-Lasse
What did the author mean by
explain the author's use of metaphor in
What symbolism was the author invoking with
He says that he had no answer to more than half the questions.
In my world:
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
I built my own set of moral standards... Now I can't say that I'm the first person to come up with the idea of not killing people, but that doesn't mean I'm following the teachings of someone in particular. It's perfectly OK to adopt a moral standard from someone else if you find it fits your framework and believe it's good. That's not the same as following the teachings of someone. Jesus said some good things, they're not terribly original things, but some of them are good nonethless. However, Jesus also ate times said some things that could be construed as being racist and not very tolerant. So am I supposed to follow those as well? Following the teachings of any one person is just stupid. Especially teachings that are 2000 years old.
you should be taking the good things, ignoring the bad and building your own moral code, and then allow everyone else to do the same.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
If the shortest passage in the Christian Bible is "Jesus Wept", would that make the shortest passage in the "Bible of Neo be "Whoa"?
Just wondering.
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
Firstly, disease spreads faster in densely populated areas.
Secondly, 20% is a ratio, it doesn't matter how big the population is. Less living = less mouths to feed.
As for the fields: It is wise to keep emergency supplies. Plus a private veggie garden shouldn't be too much hassle to maintain.
Even given all that, declining populations cant support growing ecconomies without miraculous increases in productivity, and increases in productivity arent as likely because there are simply less people to be innovative and come up with new ideas.
Why would the economy need to grow while the population declines? A plagued country is not in a position to sell goods anyway.
New ideas are not necessary for an increase in productivity. Doing things in bulk isn't new.
Why did GEAR crush RDP?
The christina science moniter gets many award for journalism for its accuracy and being non biased. And if any of you actually research christian science a little, you'll find it is very much christina and science, in that it brings the two together.
they're called alternate universes :)
I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you
the matrix was more synonymous of capitalist society than religion. Most of the population except the few that took psychedelic drugs were oblivious to the facts that they were living in a dream work constructed to make them live out their lives, working, keeping busy, but never knowing the truth.
In our society we try to make more jobs, more work, for people to do. This is so they can eat, right? Wrong. We have the technology to automate the production of food. Meaning if we put the thought, time and resources behind it we could give everyone the food they need to live without asking for money in return.
Do most people do productive jobs or are they some psychology major sitting in some marketting department thinking up new ways to get people to spend their money?
I think the message in The Matrix is society doesn't have to be a complex matrix of propoganda designed to keep us independant and greedy. Society could be anything we want to make of it.
Is it logical to raise cows so every human can eat a steak? No. But some people would rather live in a society that would destroy our environment so they could eat steak everynight, blissfully ignorant of reality.
Alright, I have read plenty of articles of people looking for deeper meanings in clouds and burning homes and even in mashed potatoes (ok, so that may have been a movie). My point is that no matter where a, and I quote a zealot looks, they will most certainly find a "deeper" meaning. I've heard one of my (bless her heart, as my g-ma would say) good friends who just happens to worship the ground G-d walks on (or doesn't) say that she has seen Jesus while she was riding her bike to school. It's a funny thing how humans find a need for that kind of thing. I don't buy the idea that the Matrix holds deeper meaning for Christianity or Buddhism or whatever. I do feel, however that there is a basic need to feel needed and important. One can look at ancient stories from pre-christianity that describe the same type of events. Come on, look at the Egyptian stories!
"Numerology: Neo's apartment number is 101, suggesting that he's "the one"."
Funny, I always thought it meant he was the five.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
and so freedom becomes the right to eat steak everynight but not the right to take psychedelic drugs.
I am not an atheist for jesus, or whatever that was, I am just an atheist...
I just don't think that it was extremely lame as you posted...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
idiot
I've got a startling essay from a film expert who gets into some of the "deeper meaning" of the Matrix films, and trust me, it has nothing to do with spirituality:
50 Reasons to Avoid The Matrix
I don't agree with every point made, but I've heard from a lot of fans, and have seen a lot of changed minds. He's got a petition going, and I think Warner Bros. is in for a serious surprise when they get it.
Phallic Symbols in LOTR
So, if everybody looted, commerce would crumble, and everybody would be unable to purchase what they needed. OK, put a check in the 'Bad' column next to looting - it's not a scalable behavior.
So why is a world where commerce crumbles bad? If you say that, you're imposing a particular set of values arbitrarily. And to decide that one value is objectively better that another requires something akin to faith.
So we all have some kind of religion. We just disagree about which one is best or most true.
Peace be with you,
-jimbo
XML Tools for Mac OS X
Mom? Is that you? ;)
I wouldn't say I'm a bad gambler but the last time I went to Vegas I even lost a buck on the soda machine.
I remember seeing an article on how Bender from 'Futurama' was a metaphor for the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Dolemite
______________________
Save the World! Use a Quote!
Or the 101st depending on your point of view
I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of a ruling class. Especially since I rule. -Randal, Clerks
That spells out the word God.
Coincidence?
I think not!
Louis Farakhan, is that you?!
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
http://www.dance-of-ecstasy.net/dance/0302.html
No, that's not true. We know God exists from philosophy (Aquinas, Descartes, etc.), and also from miracles. The Pope just canonized a few twentieth-century saints during his visit to Spain a few days ago. Miracles (which can't be explained other than supernaturally) happen all the time.
Tell me how following the teachings of one man is any different that following the teachings of one god? It isn't. If you were to do that you're just moving your spirituality from one thing to another.
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
NEO rearranged is ONE, as in "The ONE"... blah blah, there are tons of these, don't get worked up over it.
so uhm... all art is dreck, huh...
Your life must be full of wonderful, happy things.
IAALS.
Aside from the fact that I'm not sure what your hybdrid "Neo-chadnezzar" name is really supposed to mean, there's two inherent thing wrong with your new name.
1) The obvious: Neo literally means new, not one. Take the next step and your name now becomes "new protects the crown".
2) Not so obvious: Both words/name meanings are derived from completely different languages. "Nebuchadnezzar" is Akkadian in origin and "Neo" is Greek in origin.
I don't know how many of the Founding Fathers were Protestants, deists, atheists, or whatever else, but at least one of them, John Carroll, who signed the Declaration of Independance, was a Catholic.
Sorry, I meant Charles Carroll. John Carroll was related to him.
They did get
Neo == Jesus
But somehow they missed
Morpheus == God the Father
Trinity == The Holy Spirit
If you look at their roles in the movies these fall out pretty obviously, but if people reply and ask for supporting evidence I suppose I'll post it.
the matrix was more synonymous of capitalist society than religion.
You're not the only one to think that
I believe you got it wrong...
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26
a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
7 - g
15 - o
4 - d
It's not ASCII, its the freakin' alphabet, try using your own link before discounting the geekablity of others...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Does this group even promote following the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus alone? I really doubt it, even most (read non-fanatical/somewhat open minded) Christians don't follow the teachings of Jesus exclusively. And since you have to be pretty open minded to come up with the idea of an atheist for Jesus, I sincerely doubt that they follow Jesus exclusively.
If I am wrong, then I am sorry and they are lame as you proclaimed...
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
STFM
>Any TRUE disciple knows you need to ROT13 first.
I have a pattent pending on the use of "rotation" of a list of elements to enact encryption "rot-n encryption" and I find you to be in violation of that patent. Please make a check payable to me for $1,000,000 at your earliest convenience
Sitting Walrus Blog
Isn't that how Scientology started? L Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer who was taken just a bit too seriously. Kinda like the whole Jedi thing and now Matrix too.
We know God exists from philosophy (Aquinas, Descartes, etc.)
Your appeal to authority is weak. There are plenty of philosophers who believe god does not exist as well (Neitze, Voltaire, etc.). And anyone who is currently studying philosophy will tell you that the existance of god is still a hot topic...
Miracles (which can't be explained other than supernaturally) happen all the time.
I would say that that events which can not be explained yet happen all the time. It was not that long ago that the orbit of the planet mercury or even the daily rising and setting of the sun would have been considered a miracle by this standard.
I am not saying that there is or is not a god, but the reasons you laid out prove nothing.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
So why is a world where commerce crumbles bad? If you say that, you're imposing a particular set of values arbitrarily. And to decide that one value is objectively better that another requires something akin to faith.
:)
That's true, I'm assuming the value of human life is significant. If you don't have commerce, you either don't have division of labor or you have a socialist dictatorship of some sort.
Dictatorships tend to kill lots of people just to maintain power, so we can rule that one out.
If you don't have division of labor, you don't get medicine, for example, which saves millions of lives a year. You also wind up with a polluted environment since everybody has to provide their own power, mostly by burning forests. It may have been managable with lower population levels, but not today. Unless you want to get rid of a few billion people.
Commerce has sprung up in every human civilization, even those that sought to supress it. I think there's enough evidence to say it's human nature. I guess I'm assuming civilization is a good thing. It would be ironic for someone using Slashdot and the complex set of systems that make it possible to argue against civilization, though.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I wasn't making an appeal to authority as such, but rather an appeal to the philosophical arguments by those authorities. Of course, some would not agree with those arguments, but the fact is that the Bible isn't (theoretically) the sole means through which we can learn of the existence of God.
I would say that that events which can not be explained yet happen all the time. It was not that long ago that the orbit of the planet mercury or even the daily rising and setting of the sun would have been considered a miracle by this standard.
There's a difference between something being not scientifically explainable, and it being scientifically impossible (and yet happening anyway). I see what you're saying here, but then by your standards, it would be impossible for God to prove His existence. If He were to pick up Australia and drop it into the Atlantic Ocean, you could say, "There's a perfectly logical scientific explanation for this, we just don't know what it is yet." Sometimes, though, Occam's Razor points to God as the cause of certain things that happen...
The Matrix isn't based on any real philosophy---the writers just happened to stumble onto some material that, when taken in hindsight, is ambigious enough to be reinterpreted into Plato's Theory of the Forms, Descartes' evil demon, Nietzsche's overman (heh, try *that one* on for size :), and of course the crusifixion of Christ. *That* is how vague the movie is on philosophical grounds. This leads me to believe that the writers of the first movie have little to no clue what it is that they stumbled upon and all them people who leave the movie "Whoa, whodathunk?" are in serious need for real philosophy :)
It gets far more wacky than anything you will find on the Matrix. Neo confused a pot hole for a rabbit hole.
Some authors recognize that and succeed; others don't and fail.
Bah! If people think The Matrix has Christian parallels, they should check out Chrono Trigger (an old SNES RPG, IMHO one of the best RPGs ever). Or at least look at this site: The Chrono Trigger Testament.
#include "sig.h"
I know something about Dianetics & Scientology, & I looked for any sign of these inventions of Hubbard in the movie, & I could not see any. Unless achieving ``Clear" somehow involves having a bad haircut.
FWIW, the most common criticism I've encountered of Battlefield Earth was that it strained the viewer's credulity too many times.
Geoff
I think I see a trend here. Maybe for them it really would be easier to muzzle the entire internet than to produce p
Tell that to those that read the bible... It's just a book, right?
I wasn't making an appeal to authority as such, but rather an appeal to the philosophical arguments by those authorities. Of course, some would not agree with those arguments, but the fact is that the Bible isn't (theoretically) the sole means through which we can learn of the existence of God.
Fine you were appealing to their arguments, but the arguments have not passed the burden of review by their peers who are also experts in philosophy. The teachings of religion are the only non-debated source of proof of the existence of a god. So are you trying to argue that there could be a god, or to prove that there is a god?
There's a difference between something being not scientifically explainable, and it being scientifically impossible (and yet happening anyway).
Something being scientifically impossible and happening anyway is proof of only one thing, science not yet perfected. Go to any large, reputable university and find the physics department, you will find many people who devote their life to refining and improving science.
Sometimes, though, Occam's Razor points to God as the cause of certain things that happen...
I would hardly call the existence of a higher power a simple explanation.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
1) The obvious: Neo literally means new, not one. Take the next step and your name now becomes "new protects the crown".
If trying to defend my previous thesis to the teeth, I'd be inclined to say that the name would then translate as "new protector (holder?) of the crown".
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
BUT! there is only one morality in The Matrix: Might makes right. Even in a complex world where they are supposed to be just thought, the question of who determines the future of the universe is still only who can kick the most ass.
I found the glossary in TFA to speak more about the ability of humans to see patterns where none exist. While there is no doubt that film makers like to sneak "cool shit" into their films, I think the author reads too much into Matrix. (That or he wants to justify watching the film)
I'll be convinced if in the next film the Oracle gives Neo a Torilla with the face of Jesus toasted on it.
Oh yeah, and part of good art is the ability to leave open ended symbolism that deeply connects with people. You don't need to understand why something works, only be able to spot and use such elements effectively.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Please enlighten me with your examples of "racist" things Jesus taught.
The problem here is that you're assuming as a "fact" that God doesn't exist, and then interpreting the data in light of that assumption. So even if a voice called out from heaven saying, "God will now drop Australia into the Atlantic Ocean", and then Australia did drop into the Atlantic, you would ignore the possibility that a miracle had occurred, since as far as you're concerned that would be absolutely impossible.
I would hardly call the existence of a higher power a simple explanation.
Well, that would depend on the particular miracle. The miracles that the Vatican uses as evidence for sainthood generally involve an "impossible" cure (as far as modern medecine is concerned), preceded by someone asking a particular candidate for sainthood to ask God for the healing in question. They do make a strong effort to find a possible scientific explanation for any such miracle. If no such explanation can be found, it is deemed a miracle. To become a saint, one needs more than one such miracle, so that even if one miracle ascribed to a saint is actually natural in origin (although the odds of this are very low), the chance that all the miracles ascribed to a saint are naturally-caused would be infinitessimally low.
Of course, if one has one's heart set against the possibility of miracles, no such evidence would ever be sufficient.
And I will never be the same again... My life would be ten times better if I hadn't. I've managed to not click on it several times but it was too long.
Hmmm... Pie...
The movie industry would make much better movies if they paid closer attention to the language and themes of the ancient Greek tragedies because these stories hit upon some major archetypes.
our dream world is the image of the perfect life, the perfect body, and the utopian world which will will live if we buy this product for $99.95
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
So even if a voice called out from heaven saying, "God will now drop Australia into the Atlantic Ocean", and then Australia did drop into the Atlantic, you would ignore the possibility that a miracle had occurred, since as far as you're concerned that would be absolutely impossible.
I think that might convince me...
The miracles that the Vatican uses as evidence for sainthood generally involve an "impossible" cure (as far as modern medecine is concerned), preceded by someone asking a particular candidate for sainthood to ask God for the healing in question.
Modern medicine is FAR from a perfect science. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand it (My father is a medical school professor...) but one thing that is well known is that the mind can have amaizing effects on the body. If a patient believes that someone is coming to heal them can perform miracles, then the belief can effect the healing.
Even this is a more simple explanation than a god.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Why must we always cloak our guilty pleasures in layers of "meaning?" (Probably something to do with our Judaeo-Christian mores, but I'll leave that to the armchair theologians and film-makers to posit upon...)
You just reminded me of something that happened to me in highschool. We were doing yet another unit in English class on popular culture (yes, the highschools here in the US are really that bad) and the teacher was asking us what shows we liked. I replied that I liked Knight Rider and she asked me why. I was like "it's fun to just sit there and watch it". She was like "so, do you identify with Michael Knight" to which I replied "no, I wouldn't want to be him. He's always getting shot at and stuff". Perhaps thinking I was missing the point, she pressed on, asking something along the line of "do you like to imagine you're the hero" and I replied--I swear I'm not making this up--"no, it's just a TV show. It's fun to veg out, shut my brain off for a while and watch it".
The other students laughed; I think they were laughing at me for admitting this, but I think they probably all knew it was true.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Don't you dare treat us like uninformed children - just because slashdot has more people of a similar belief to yours (atheism I assume) does not mean you can patronise us. You are alone in the world not believing in God. Almost every wise or intelligent man around the world believes in God. Where do you stand?
You think I haven't spent time to research what I believe? To be sure of these things that I'm not believing a lie? You think that your position is so secure? Religion is NOT just to keep people sane and controlled.
I think you are quite proud to believe that you are wise enough to have stumbled on a truth that your ancestors had neglected to see. I'm guessing here - but just because your encounter with religious types has resulted in confirming your intelligence does not mean that there isn't someone out there who could stand up to you. I think, I learn, I understand. I respect pure logic, reason. I want to know the truth.
At any rate: these comments of yours are pure pride and fantasy.
To athiests, religion is a search for what helps you and makes life easier for you, because to them, there is no god, so all religions are equally wrong.
To those who believe in a god, religion is a search for the truth. (Is there a god?, what is he like?, what has he done?, what is his will for people?)
Until athiests understand this, they will always have a misunderstanding of what "resonable religions" are and of what tolerance means. I always hear atheists say that Christians are intolerent because they think their was is the only way. If religion is about feeling fulfilled, then yeah, there may be several ways, but if it is about the truth, then there is only one way, because there is only one truth.
Maybe certain athiests are right, maybe Christians are right, maybe Muslims are right, or maybe no one has discovered the complete truth yet.
Of course, we still need to appreciate those who don't agree with us, whether it involves religion, politics or emacs vs. vi debates. However, when it comes to matters involving the question, "What is the truth?", there is only one correct answer.
>I always hear atheists say that Christians are intolerent because they think their was is the only way.
:^)
:)
Only Christians that take the bible literally are intolerant. In the bible various passages encourage poor treatment of women, and in the extreme, murdering gays.
Most Christians are willing to overlook these things because they know that intolerance without reason is a sign of insanity (well, that and I'm sure it says somewhere in the bible how tolerance is a virtue or something.)
>If religion is about feeling fulfilled, then yeah, there may be several ways, but if it is about the truth, then there is only one way, because there is only one truth.
Why does there have to be only one truth? In fact, there's a whole "religion" to itself about that point, agnosticism. While, to a certain degree, I've made my choice (and it'll take some hard scientific evidence to change it), I wouldn't suggest that there is only one "truth". Just as in science, new ideas are highly debateable, and there are many solutions to the same problem (take, for example, high school physics and the discussion of how light is both a particle and a wave), there is room for more than one religion to be correct, IMHO.
I don't think someone who has decided that there _is_ a God is wrong, I simply think they've come to a different decision than my own.
Real truth is ever changing as more facts and ideas come about. And _that's_ where I draw the line. When a sect of a religion decides they will no longer face facts, and decide they won't change for any reason at all, that's when that religion is insane and wrong. And usually we call these people "Fundamentalists", or, if you are GWB, "Terrorists".
>Maybe certain athiests are right, maybe Christians are right, maybe Muslims are right, or maybe no one has discovered the complete truth yet.
This, this I agree with.
But when it comes to religion, I really do think there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Well, that and I think the best way to change someone's mind is through understanding, acceptance, and tolerance. You aren't going to win anyone over by telling them they're going to burn in hell for the rest of their lives if they don't do as you ask.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Wow, you people are driving me nuts!! How you interperet the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with how tolerent you are!! For crying out loud, listen to yourself -- Anyone who interperets the Bible figuratively is alright, but if you happen to interperet it more literally (ie. maybe, just maybe Jesus really meant it when he said "No on can enter the Father except through me.") then I don't like you and I am going to call you intolerent, a bigot, and 10 other things. No, I think you show pretty well what intolerence looks like.
Yeap, and 303 is HTTP 303 "See Other" -- Neo has to go to that hotel room because the phone Trinity and Morpheus used was destroyed...in a way a redirect :P
I tend to believe that everyone "psyches" themselves out in order to function properly in the world - humans are highly adaptable. Some chose or are taught to believe in god others reject belief in god and instead turn to "just trying to live the best life i can" or "try to make the world a better place for the children" or "devote themselves to scientific progress" or even the silly idea of karma (popular for some reason with "intellectuals"). I think everyone does this as a survival mechanism - the alternative is just too damn dreary.
I've given this some thought, and maybe i am just an aweful person, but if when you die that's really the end, then quite frankly i don't give a rats ass about any of you suckers. Why would i care? I no longer exist. A big freaken meteor can come and destroy the planet and i am not bothered one bit by this - because i no longer exist. I might help science along for what it can get me (fame, money, power, sex, whatever), but why would i care if my chidren live happier, longer lives? because of some internal desire to see the human race continue on after i am gone? where is this desire manufactured? is it merely the remnants of some deep animal instinct for survival of the pack? how is belief in "humanity" any less silly than, say, "religion". it is pure fantasy to think that you're going to somehow benefit from your work once your dead...yet many "intellectuals" admit that they do what they do for the "greater good"...what a crock...
no doubt many will misinterpret what i an saying. i am not saying we need religion in order to live moral/ethical lives. I am saying humans need something - if not religion, then something else. religion may be opiate for the masses, but the intellectual minority has their own opiates, and just like the religious, they do not enjoy having this fact pointed out.
I'll state for the record that I didn't write a damn thing.
"The Matrix" made $170 million domestic and $270 million international up to this point. Now that people have tasted the fruits of the Wachowski brothers of Chicago (sweet home) "Reloaded" will top that mark. Personally I think I am making a bold statement because it is impossible to make a sequel to the first movie, depicting the birth of the hero (Messianic as it is), which can be as insightful and fuel the creation of 1100 fan sites across the world.
/. Some of those (like room 101) I would never have figured out. (101 in George Orwell's 1984 is also the room in which resides the "worst thing in the world").
But I believe the followers will cause the sequel to break the initial record because they all know, as do you, that you cannot see everything in a Wachowski movie the first time around. They are too smart. Take for example the references fromthe aarticle posted here at
...if not, tell him I killed some people because of his "50 Reasons to Avoid The Matrix" paper and see what he has to say.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
A great example of this message are loads of money invested in the two Matrix sequels in order to gain even more than $450 milion WB got from the first film.
The real test of impartiality for Christian Science must be their position on Evolution vs Creationism; it sounds like a Creationist BS to me.
Enjoy it Stu and avoid the Anon Coward flamers and trolls.
I'll admit that modern Christianity is a major leap forward from all that, but why should it be the end of all progress?
As civilisation matures, we have less and less need for superstitions. Everyone's entitled to them, just realise that many of us left that behind a long time ago.
You are alone in the world not believing in God. Almost every wise or intelligent man around the world believes in God. Where do you stand?
Care to back that up with facts? Pretty difficult, I'd say. The fact is that the wise and intelligent men of the world have a whole array of beliefs, most of which would not entirely match with yours. And still the world turns.
"If Christians whorshipped, for example, Moses instead of Jesus, this article would have been all about how Neo was "Moses like"."
You know you might be on to something there. Neo as a jesus never quite clicked for me, but Moses makes a bit of sense. While the focus of the Jesus story is divine revelation and, divine sacrifice the Moses story is about escaping slavery and finding a new home for the chosen people.
I still think the Christian model isn't really appropriate for analysing the film. Biblical hero's are generally agents of the divine and all of their "powers" stem from an outside source rather than within. Exceptions like Samson are chastised for their hubris and still have to fall back on the divine in the end.
When I first watched the film it felt much more like story of Gottam Buddha - Young Prince (35) is exposed to the fact that the word is a bad place by his charioteer (Sri Krishna/Morpheus), and becomes and aesthetic, Fails in the established methods, accepts a bowl of rice (kiss from Trinity?) and then rises up from beneath the Bodi Tree with True Enlightenment.
THe author of the article brings up Gnosticism which honestly now seems like the best model for looking at the film in a relgious context. In this case the Prophet/Trinity would take the role of the Sophia spirit that has gone into the flawed creation of the Mad God to help humanity find its own spark of divinity.
Turning down the pretentious crap, I have to agree with some of the earlier posts - it was just a fun flashy movie given a bit more depth by some smart but vauge philisophical/relgious implications. BTW Am I the only one who would have found the flick even more compelling if Morpheus had turned out to be the "one" rather than Neo? There would have been something very satisfying about the seeker being the thing he sought. Would have been a great scene - Morpheus drugged and chained breaks his bonds and realizes his own nature, Neo gets capped, becoming the sacrificial lamb and Morpheus wreaks wrath and vengence on the agents. Lord of Dreams makes a lot of since for someone with power in the matrix than "the new guy". Oh well...
Even if you do learn to speak correct English, whom are you going to speak it to?
Even if one does learn to speak English correctly, to whom is one going to speak?
P.S. I ain't a student of English, but I am and English student
My spelling isn't bad, I'm evolving the language
Another comp sci reference is the "Construct", the loading program. In Java and no doubt other languages, a method that loads a class is called a "constructor".
Sadly, I've seen a lot of "The Matrix is nothing but a cool action movie". Well, what could be closer to the movie's distinction between those in the Matrix, asleep, looking for easy creature comfort, and those awake, trying to ask hard questions about what reality really is? Those looking deeper are at least trying to break free; they should be admired.
Unfortunately, the movie does an injustice by suggesting that getting out of the Matrix is as easy as taking a pill. The truth is that people in modern societies are too overworked and concerned about avoiding future pain to put in the effort to get out of their own Matrix.
My two cents:
* Stop watching any commercial TV or radio.
* Vote your conscience.
* Use some of your free time to create a positive reflection of yourself in the physical world.
On the last point, start small. Write words, draw pictures, make something with your hands. Of course, if you're a programmer, write some code. It will increase your sense of individual power, that you can make a difference. You really can reach out and do something amazing.
Then you will truly have broken free of the Matrix.
We have the technology to automate the production of food. Meaning if we put the thought, time and resources behind it we could give everyone the food they need to live without asking for money in return.
Which we do. But if you want to eat food of a higher quality then the baseline food shipped to homeless shelters or overseas to countries where the government steals the food but some makes it through, you're going to have to pay. Rice is free, if you're willing to go down to the shelters to eat it. Lobsters are not.
Work is now a means of obtaining and doing other things, such as better then the baseline shelter you can also obtain for free in this country. For instance, why did you bother posting? Some people work for the same reason. There are lazy slobs who wouldn't work even if you put a gun to their heads, but there are also people who would do their work even if you didn't pay them. Part of the key of a robust economy is making sure the latter group is allowed to do so as well as possible, especially the engineer types who love to build things.
(To the extent possible, we try to make food and shelter free or easily accessible in other countries, too, but it's not always possible due to the government of the other country.)
Before I'd be inclined to pay much attention to your criticisms of society, and the many other times I've read virtually identical posts, I'd have to see more evidence that you actually understand society, instead of subscribing to a trite and trendy among angsty teenagers view of society.
The complex matrix of propoganda certainly exists, but it is far from the whole story and it's not as successful as many would like to think; witness the failure of the overwhelming "matrix" of propoganda pushing the viewpoint that the war in Iraq was morally wrong to convince the American public, vs. the much smaller and quieter justification for it. Damn near the entire media, both TV and newspaper, the entire entertainment industry, and the entire rest of the world were trying to convince us how wrong it was, vs. basically just the President and a few odd-man-out commentators trying to convince us it was a good idea. Extremely lopsided, but majority propoganda lost, and is still losing. Regardless of how you feel about that issue, that's a great example of when "the matrix of propoganda" almost completely broke down, and demonstrated that to truly understand society you need a much deeper comprehension then blaming everything on "propoganda". As a model of reality, it is extremely inaccurate.
That's just it. I don't think any individual human understand society completely. But I think a lot of us have a clear perception of the small parts of society we have experienced through our lives. Our collective perception and communication on the topic, I think, can help us educate eachother about the right way to do things.
For example your idea that there are a bunch of engineers who just love to build things makes sense. I knew when I was a kid that all I wanted to do when I grew up was program computers. You couldn't make me go outside and play when I was a kid. I would spend the whole weekend locked up along in my dark room hacking on my C128. But nobody offerred to give me a computer when I moved away from home. Nobody offerred to teach me or even provide me the free materials to learn. Instead I was told that I had equal opportunity like everybody else.
What I am saying is that is not enough. We need to give these people computers and books and teachers who know the material for free so they can do what they love to do. Provide us with cool software and maybe one day free food.
And there's a difference between majority propoganda and the major news networks. If they support the President its rather difficult for any indi media to reach that audience. Everyone can be saying its wrong, but if the only thing people see when they flip to CNN on their TV sets is that its for freedom, justice and the American way they'll buy into that just as easily. But even today with the facts that Halburton got those contracts does anyone question their choices? And if they did would it make a difference?
It all just makes me want to go watch Wag the Dog again and smoke a bowl.
>How you interperet the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with how tolerent you are!!
So, let's see, if we take the bible as a literal guide to life:
Mudering abusers is just.
Murdering brat children is such a good idea, God does it for you.
You should harm others at least as much as they harm you.
Do God a favour and kill all the gays so he doesn't have to.
Don't forget the furries too!
Let's not forget about the wiccans! Goddam hippies!
Everyone in Canada needs to commit suicide, now.
And that's only TWO books! What is that, 5% of the bible? Want more examples? There's literally hundreds, if not THOUSANDS more!
But, if you don't take those ideas literally, and simply take them as warnings, such as "Swearing at dad isn't a good thing", then it's fine (although, still intolerant, but as long as you're not going to force your religion on me, so be it).
But taking the bible literally is a call to anarchy, and most wouldn't consider that sane. Of course, if you think it's sane to murder people for being offensive, well, go right ahead (well, on second thought, please don't). I'm pretty sure they call that type of behaviour "psychotic", though.
>No, I think you show pretty well what intolerence looks like.
It looks like this. That's intolerance. On both sides.
I'm neither. You're free to preach the ways of wickedness against homosexuals, but I'm free to say you're nuts for doing so.
The bible is ONLY a good book if it is read carefully, and NOT interpreted literally. Otherwise it is a prelude to all out anarchy and war.
>but if you happen to interperet it more literally (ie. maybe, just maybe Jesus really meant it when he said "No on can enter the Father except through me.") then I don't like you and I am going to call you intolerent, a bigot, and 10 other things
Oh, no, that John 14:6 is perfectly fine with me, even if it is a confusing piece of the bible, it's relatively inoffensive.
I just have problems with the whole "Kill people because they are bad" thing, you know. I suppose you are right, I'm intolerant of people who have murder on their mind. Maybe that makes me a horrible sinful person.
Tolerance? You say a literal of interpretation of the Bible preaches tolerance? LOL!
But, thou shalt not kill, right?
That and the whole animal sacrifices thing, that disturbs me as well.
I HATE MURDERERS! SMITE ME! I'M AN INTOLERANT SOB (Aren't I supposed to be killed for that as well? Or at least smited for life!)
Hey, you asked for me to show you what I'm talking about. Which reminds me... I need to print out this post for the Jehovah's Witnesses next time they come by -- they did ask me what I had trouble with in the bible! Might as well be honest! That is a virtue... not something I'll be killed for... right?
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Neither is the story of Christ. It is a very different kind of story and a very different kind of message.
The offing of humanity en masse was in JDevers' post, not yours. That's why I said "in ref to parents..."
There is a sf short story to the effect that a physics prof brings various people forward in time, including Shakespeare. Wil takes a modern class about his own writings, but has to go back to his own time.... he was horribly humiliated because he had flunked...
Everyone looks at the world through some kind of personal filter, not only christians. It's called your world view. Sounds like that's what you mean in your 3rd paragraph when you say the "perceived framework of your reality." You have one too, you may just not be as conscious of it or have consciously thought about why you accept certain premises as a part of it. FWIW, the matrix certainly shows this in that neo's entire understanding of the world is radically changed... he has to decide whether to accept that or not though.... and Cypher is willing to suspend belief and opt to live the comfortable lie. World views are pretty deeply felt and often not thought-out. And people can refuse to accept information that doesn't fit in theirs, or that makes them reassess their world view.
This was the dominant attitude in Europe from the fall of Rome (5th century) to the economic revival 7 centuries later. Needless to say, not a lot of scientific or social advancement occured during this period.
I'd be disturbed by the way The Matrix parrots this concept, except for two things. First, it seems to celebrate the illusion. Neo spends most of his time in the Matrix/Mayajaal/Satan's realm, fighting illusory enemies. Hardly an enlightened approach!
Second, this is all just plain stupid. A massive VR that can't be distinguished from reality? All for the sole purpose of stealling humanity's body heat? Except for the pseudo-mysticism, this is Tom Clancy territory! Anybody who takes it seriously spends too much time on the couch.
Though I think that would be best be compared with Paradise Lost...
Some interesting religious symbolism... or maybe plagurism if you are a neurotic English professor.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling