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Control-Alt-Recycle
klevin writes "Grist magazine's running an article on what to look for when the old PC's running out of gas and you want to avoid trashing the environment even further. Their suggestions include: upgrade instead of replacing, go for LCD monitors instead of CRTs and, if replacing, reuse the old one as an MP3 server on your home network."
...right here.
Or, if you're on the other end, you can also apply for a used computer.
The Army reading list
Of course, then there is always the issue of older machines being less power efficient; Perhaps reusing them could be considered not green at all :)
She loves me: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 She loves me not: 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688BF
Not only is it better for the enviroment to upgrade, it also saves you money :)
(hey, I can still use this case, etc etc)
This is the sig that says NI (again)
The thing that stops me from recycling an old machine as an MP3 server would be power consumption.
Do I want a higher electricity bill and waste resources like this?
... send your old computers to me, I wouldn't mind having something to hack around on, I could install Linux/BSD(not dying!) and the people would rejoice!
Until I can have someone pick up my machine (or find a reasonable place to drop it off) and have it recycled, my machines are going in the trash.
I'm not going to keep a bunch of useless parts around.
You could setup a beowolf cluster of CRT's.
Imagine the possibilities.
Donate them to a charity. An MP3 server is really a waste of energy. I mean, come on... why not simply donate the pc to some charity that can give them to those less fortunate folks who could use them, and who don't need a P4 3.4ghz system to use email, do homework, and balance their checkbook...
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
I have one, its called a stereo. Really, for the 99.99% of the population that doesn't read Slashdot, who is going to actually do this? Nobody in the iPod generation for sure.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
i wonder. what is the environmental impact of throwing out a PC, versus the envrionmental impact of keeping an extra PC around and having it consume power all day and night? i'm not sure it is more environmentally friendly to keep an old PC around instead of throwing it out.
Since Linux is so darn lightweight and easy to use I took my old laptop, removed the broken screen, installed base SuSE Linux (no X) and networked it. With an installation of rsync I've got an instant backup server for all the machines in our place.
Sure that machine's processor is only 750Mhz, but a laptop with no screen and a large hard drive makes a nice "blade server" sitting on the shelf and with a core operating system running the CPU load is never high.
John.
turn them into smoothwalls for your friends and neighbors.
Seriously... I've recycled a bunch of old pentium-class machines that were headed for the landfill by setting up a "smoothie" and giving them away to ppl.
Doing my part to stamp out worms and viruses.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I certainly don't have a better solution admitedly, but I'm pretty sure this needs some work.
Paul Lenhart writes words!
A few years back (sorry, can't find the link) UPS had an offer going. Send them $30, and they send you a prepaid shipping label. You put all the crap you don't want into a box, slap on the shipping label, and UPS takes care of properly recycling and parting out your old crap. A good, cheap way to clean all that antique hardware out of your basement and do it properly.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
...my local council collects electronic compenents for recycling every fortnight.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
It may even be a equally evil choice, more toxic trash in the dump if you chuck the 'puter, or more toxic crap in the air from using extra electricity.
..........FULL STOP.
goodwil has computer centers where they take your trash computers and build systems for the less privelidged...or..just the cheap for that matter. I've gone into their center to buy parts for my older machines before.
So, instead of tossing that old computer, I should set it up as an mp3 | print | file | firewall | game | whatever server. That way instead of poluting the environment I can waste more electricity!
reuse the old one as an MP3 server on your home network
If your network is then compromised and your MP3 server becomes visible to the outside, even in a limited capacity, do you then get zapped for sharing your MP3s? That would suck if you didn't even know it was happening and suddenly you get a summons.
Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
Computer re-use is the best option. Use 'em until they can't even pull firewalling duty.
...letting it go. Stop buying new CRTs now, folks.
The big culprits, however, are CRTs. Manufacturing those things is awful. My father's company once contracted with (Sony, I think) a Singapore manufacturer to remove and purify all the water from their industrial runoff from CRT manufacturing. Dad's company had been working on an ultrapure water system for the Shuttle, so they knew they could do it. However, the final product (a sludge) was so toxic that it would have cost more to dispose of than just diluting the wastewater and
I've wiped disks clean, installed new distros and open office, tweaked it to avoid glitches and then donated the resultant computers to a local homeless shelter. They use them as typewriters for the most part.
I hate to see perfectly good equipment go to waste. (Especially just because I wanted the latest and greatest!)
They'll have nothing of consumers actually upgrading PCs. PCs are to be sealed by magic tape and preserved for 1-3 years at which point it's your civic duty to purchase a new one.
FWIW
My dad works for the local middle school back home. Used computers come to him all the time, mostly through the government and defense contractors.
They've come in very useful, and with the new Dells the school bought, the computer to classroom ratio is about 7:1.
That school is lucky due to the location. If you want a decent write-off go dump your computer off at some public school, maybe one that isn't so well off. The tech will trickle down and we'll all be better off for it.
bah.
At a certain point, old computers just aren't worth keeping around. My limit right now is about a 200MHz Pentium-MMX. Any older and slower and it just isn't worth keeping around for me. I recently got rid of a 133MHz Pentium that did a halfway decent job at being a firewall, but doing anything else with it took forever. Plus, you have to realize that the computing power per kWH just isn't worth it at that point when less then 10% of the computing power of one of your newer boxes can accomplish the same tasks.
In other news, the EPA reports that keeping all of your trash in your house significantly reduces the amount of landfills needed.
Get real at some point you have to get rid of it.
*MY* old PCs are a bunch of pentiums... usually socket 5's even. Does this guy even remember the state of MP3's in the days of these machines? The ONLY player that would be able to play an MP3 in realtime, on "my old machines" would be winplay3 (yes... ugh)... at that would still be dodgy.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Well, I've always wondered what to do with my aging P Pro 180....
Maybe a small part of the recycling fee added to a new computer should be refunded when the old computer is taken for recycling. This gives a recycling fee + a non-recycling penalty.
Not everyone returns empty bottles, but the refund makes the bottle returns worth the hassle.
i use an old 133MHz PI w/ 128MB ram for a RH9 firewall on cable modem. The workload hardly *ever* gets near 1 at all. There are many, many uses for old PC's.
Hell, i hooked up a USB cam w/ motion detect software (check sourceforge) to catch which one of our cats was crapping on the couch! Worked like a dream. Plenty of apps for those old beasts.
...to someone who won't know the difference. (i.e. that little old lady down the street that just needs to check her email, or... you know... MOM n' DAD, punkass little brother, etc)
:-)
All of this is, of course, in theory... not that I've really done that yet. All my 'preciouses' are with me still...
But how many MP3 servers can one person use? I have a Mac II, 2 386s, 2 486s, 1 100 MHz, 1 133 MHz, 1 233 MHz, 1 Pentium 400 MHz, 1 Pentium 500 Mhz, and an Athlon 900 MHz all sitting around. I don't need 11 computers sitting around serving stuff up. I only have them all still because I haven't decided to throw some of them out in the trash yet (and I've been harvesting small components off of the older ones). Although I am using 1 as an OpenBSD router, and the 400, 500, and 900 machines are still good for other people to surf the internet.
The recent announcment where Intel is building greener chips is an example of reduce...as is simplified packaging, reusable containers, using your own coffee mug instead of a disposable cup etc.
The next best thing is Reuse. I recently turned my old box into a file server for example. The downside is this machine is always on (i.e. I have two heaters in my basement instead of one). I can reduce my power consumption a bit by clocking it down...but not eliminate that electrical demand completely.
All in all I think a general awareness of the "Total Cost of Ownership" on a global scale will hopefully lead to more enlightened decision making. That some of the big players are taking part is a good sign.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Keeping old machines in service is fine, but I'm not so sure about finding new uses for them for the sake of not switching them off..
On a similar note, new PC purchases. The library at my Uni has got a whole bunch of new Pentium 4s with WinXP in the library, for running a web client for searching through book records... nearby, the bank of ~20 monocrhome Wyse text-mode dumb terminals are still ticking away after something like 15 years? Meanwhile I'm running simulations on sub-800MHz PIIIs in the labs!
Ahh bureaucracy...
- Paul
All these slashdotters complaining about how old machines use power. Why not hack together an environmentally benign power source for them? Sheesh.
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
You can donate your stuff to http://www.usedpccanada.com - enterprises can also get rid of pallets of old pc's too.
"...a generation of kids has grown up thinking Trance is the shittiest music since country and western." - Paul van Dyk
What the RIAA or there international equivalents will think of this...
Raid everyone with a Pentium 2 or less to see if they have illegal music on them...?
:-)
I've never shoed a horse, but I once told a donkey to piss off!
While I'm all for using old machines, I also wish to note that the old machines many times use more power for the re-purposed task than a new box.
You get to pay one way or another folks.
If you are recycling an old machine as a linux box of whatever flavour can anyone recommend any sites or documents with guidance as to what would be good distros, windows managers etc to install on older hardware?
I'm in the process of refurbishing all the computers in the physician's library at my hospital... all the old machines will be put to work doing something other than leaching toxins into the groundwater.
One will become a new firewall... one a fileserver... the possibilities are endless.
I don't know about you, but most of my colleagues just throw old computers away... I rescued 3 or 4 out of a colleague's garage a few months ago. Most physicians are NOT computer saavy, and might be open to assistance from a computer-saavy doc like yourself... just my observation.
Besides, there's the possibility of making "clean" electricity... there's almost no possibility of rendering lead/PCBs/mercury "clean."
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I noticed from reading the Article that every manufacturer listed has a recycling program in Japan, but the U.S. we would just rather toss in a dump somewhere.
How typical.
No wonder most of the world can't stand us.
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
Don't forget re-use... a lot of people like turning old macs in to aquariums
I'd Like to see my old 17-inch monitor that is Officially Dead swimming with a few goldfish. The next time family comes to visit: "Wow, that screensaver keeps getting better and better!"
to someone else who will use it...
and use the identical amount of energy...
--- Ban humanity.
But there must be some space out there for sites specialising in hardware re-use.....maybe offering e-stores for hard to get parts or "adapters".
Links anybody :-)
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
LCDs are harder on the eyes than an available CRT counterpart. This is true of even the best LCDs.
Also in my experience they are more fragile (owing possibly to their smaller size and weight) and prone to failure than CRTs. If you have to replace an LCD 3 times over a 6-year period vs a CRT's never, is it really a better choice for the environment to go with LCDs?
Unfortunately LCDs still suck ass at anything design/graphics related, theres no way to see the true colour or brightness of a pixel. So give your CRT's to your local graphics geek!
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
if replacing, reuse the old one as an MP3 server o
I think this is questionable environmental (as well as economic) advice. A computer, even without a monitor, will probably be eating sixty watts or so, while using a docked iPod or similiar runs maybe five watts. That's 55*24*365 = 481 kWh per year of electricity, which in most cases comes from burning fossil fuels (that in turn needed to be explored, mined/drilled, transported), compared to the production of a new device.
I am far from convinced which is better...
I have an old Dimension 166 running in my garage, it's currently acting as the mp3/ogg player, and internet radio streamer. I'm planning on getting a larger hardrive for it and make it backup all boxes on the network each night. It's running a Netgear wireless card too, so no wiring was needed.
The constant utility uses of Linux never cease to amaze me.
CVB
free ipod and free gmail!
True it might be better to use a LCD. But I have saved a lot money as of lately by acquiring CRTs that would have been trashed.
For instance, my company did some downsizing in the past few years. This means they had extra CRTs that they were going to trash. I took some home.
Isn't it better that I use used CRTs that still have life rather than buying a new LCD?
"... released a ... report on the environmental impact of computers, from production through USE and disposal." (emPHAsis mine)
A friend of mine just measured his power consumption on a 24/7 P166 MP3 server machine and concluded it costs 52.3 kwh/month ($6.14/month for him). Even if the monitor were constantly in use (~double the above numbers) he'd have to save $150 a year with NEW equipment (cost to make/buy + (cost to dispose x2) VS cost to run) to justify trashing the old. If he used a clever timer system so it was only on when needed, then he'd save lots more and REALLY have to work hard to justify new equipment.
The math seems very in favor of careful reutilization in most cases. You have to have something really sucky to justify getting a new thing and THROWING OUT the old thing. The materials almost always cost more to deal with than the energy consumed for use, apparently.
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
I have quite a few old pc's around now not all work all the time but they come in handy for tinkering around with and stuff. I think that a file server or small webserver woulc run great onone of these old machines. If the problem is with the power consumption didn't these old PC's have like 200W power supplies and the new ones have around 400?
this sig intentionally left blank
Here is something I've wondered for a while now. I have a fileserver on my network that I use for housing MP3s. When I want to listen to them, I just point my player at the files over the network.
.wavs ripped from CD.
This can be problematic if I'm doing other network intensive stuff clogging the pipe.. or listening to raw
Is there MP3 server software with a client that supports streaming with cache or something similar to whats used over the web to even out the hiccups?
I figured the beowulf clustering folks would be out and about talking about joining the machines together to make the next supercomputer from spare parts.
t ml
Ok so here is a link so its not too far off topic. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.12/beowulf.h
There are a lot of limitations on what I can do with old computer equipment. True, CRTs contain all sorts of horrible stuff, but LCDs contain a lot of mercury, so they too will need to be reclaimed in a responsible way. It's not enough to put it on the curb with the correct sticker and claim that you are "recycling." It is likely that the thing is still going into a landfill, maybe a lined one, maybe not.
As for donations, the schools in my area won't accept anything less than a Pentium III, so the whole "the only need an old P75" isn't going to work anymore.
Recycling never takes off until the law says it has to. Until real recycling is a requirement, it just is not profitable enough to build that infrastructure.
Does anyone even know the costs associated with manufacturing an LCD compared to a CRT!? I'll bet a million dollars that the LCD production for both R&D and manufacturing is more hazardous to the environment and requires more power consumption than CRTs! Yeah, so what if LCD's are lower power, they take a whole shitload of power to make!
And the tax write off is a lot higher then the actual value of the machine! Get some of your fed dollars back during tax season :)
-A
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
Recycling old computer equipment here at the mission is a huge problem. We have a growing pile of old monitors and other computer equipment. This stuff comes to us through donations to our thrift store.
Unfortunately, most of the computer equipment that comes to us is useless. We don't sell it through our thrift store: we've found that no matter what we say, people expect technical support after buying a computer. For the most part we don't use the computers ourselves. We could start declining donations of computer equipment, but even that can be difficult to enforce... stuff has a way of slipping in anyway.
So for the time being, the equipment, especially the monitors, just keeps piling up. I've worked hard to convince my coworkers that it's wrong to just dump the monitors in the trash. Happily, this is a place where ethical concerns do count.
One idea I've had is to strip out the electronics from all the equipment and ship just the electronics to a recycler. We would trash the plastic cases. The idea is that we would drastically reduce the volume and weight of the material, thereby reducing shipping costs to something that might be profitable. Labor would be free: the addiction recovery program includes working full time at an assignment in the mission, and most of the guys are plenty handy with screwdrivers and other tools.
Has anybody has any experience with something like this? I think I could sell the idea if we even just broke even. Is there any hope for Preprocessing for Fun and Profit (especially profit)?
I've found that my posts don't format quite right w/o a sig.
if replacing, reuse the old one as an MP3 server on your home network
You're just postponing the eventual landfill anyway, and in the meantime, consuming 200W or so of electricity 24/7. Where I live, electricity comes from coal, which among other things, causes acid rain.
A much better idea would be to donate the PC to a school or a nonprofit charity.
EOM
Just look on eBay for Computer parts
Dogma - "let's just say we'd like to avoid any empirical entanglements."
Pentium systems are fantastic as firewalls. It is more processing power than you need, and they are quiet. Mine doesn't even have a CPU or case fan, just the power supply. The only disadvantage is that they are usually kind of big. Other than that, they are perfect. If you use a bootable firewall (or customize your own CD) then you can get rid of the hard drive too.
You can also use a Pentium class machine to run a good ol' Quake MegaTF server. You can get those as bootable CDs too. :-)
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
One issue I see with choosing LCD panels over CRT displays is that of lifespan. It's not uncommon for a CRT to outlive it's "useful" lifespan. I've acquired several older CRTs this way from my previous employer.
15" CRTs that were deemed too small for desktop use, old-skool 21" CRTs that had too much screen curvature and were simply too big compared to newer 19" and 21" CRTs (that were also a fraction of the cost). All of these CRTs are four to eight years old and still functioning.
Comparing this with what my experience has been with LCD panels is that they have failure rates higher than that of CRTs. I've seen this mostly with notebook screens. This comparision isn't entirely fair, as notebooks receive considerablly more abuse than a desktop+CRT. However, LCD panels have backlights (usually a miniature florescent bulb) that will burn out eventually. On notebooks, these backlights are integrated into the panel itself and are not replaceable parts by themselves. I don't know if this is the case with desktop LCD panels, but I suspect it is.
So the question is, how does using LCD panels vs. CRTs really impact the environment considering failure rates and manufacturing defects?
Oooh, so Mother Nature needs a favor?!
. ht ml
Well maybe she should have thought of that when she was besetting us with droughts and floods and poison monkeys! Nature started the fight for survival, and now she wants to quit because she's losing.
Well I say, hard cheese.
http://www.internet-guide.co.uk/simpsons-quotes
I wasn't one of those people, but I'll try to explain it anyway.
You have a few scenarios:
1. You set up a new machine and trash the old one. You use one PC's worth of power, and it's more than enough to handle serving your mp3s while you do other things. Downside, you trashed the old one and released the toxic badness.
2. You set up a new machine and keep the old one for mp3s. Same as #1, but uses twice the power.
3. You set up a new machine and donate the old one to someone else who will use it. Same as #2, except twice the number of people are using PCs at the same energy use.
So, which is more efficient in your mind? One person using two PCs, or two people using two PCs? Seems like twice the use is being obtained with no net energy increase. So, yes, the same amount of energy is being used, but that doesn't seem to be the point.
But, I used this to my advantage -- when the Linux server recently took up smoking as a new hobby, instead of fixing it, I was able to get approval to spend money on a G4 on the condition that I get rid of both the Linux server and the Smurfy G3. Imagine: buying new hardware will actually make my wife happy!
Average joe gets your old computer. The computer at this point is fine for word processing/web surfing/mail/etc. Joe proceeds to go online, clicks on everything that says free, pron, installs 3 different P2p apps, never patches, clicks on attachments, etc. Within weeks the machine is lucky if it can boot. Sudenly their complaining the computer they got from you is a defectives POS. Granted this happens with new computers, but with old machines its easier for Joe to sum it up as a lemon rather than user misuse. The sad part is the above seems to happen to Average Joe constantly and isn't an exageration.
Even if you clean the machine for them little seems to be learned, they'll just do it again and again because they don't see their own responsibility as part of the process. To them it's an appliance and if something happens its an outside factor. With cars, we at least try to make sure people understand basic driver responsibility and maitanance.... I'll stop here -_-!!
I'm currently doing volunteer work at the local PC recycling center*, and in a lot of cases I we simply end up pulling apart the crap that comes our way.
There is a whole pit full of monitors, arranged as if they were balls in a ball pit. One of the guys there tried taking one out and ended up destroying a whole bunch of them when the whole stack collapsed. Oops. A lot of monitors also fail the day long soak test too.
At least we can get something useful out of old stuff. We have two boxes full of copper from monitor deguassing coils which supposedly could score us $100 AUD, and boxes full of metals. Sad part comes when I end up pulling old 386's and 486's that fail to meet minimum requirements (100MHz Pentiums, 32MB's of RAM minimum. Must run OpenOffice.org on Win95 or Linux).
If you want to know what stuff ends up in the frag bin, I demolished two boxes full of old Colorado Memory Systems tape drives and 33k modems within two hours. It's just a simple flat head screwdriver job: Wack the plastic cover off, remove PCB and dump it, remove metals and place in recycling bin.
* Yes, it's the one that got fucked over by M$ for licensing. We currently put Linux on a few systems, but unfortunately, we end up scrambling for copies of Windoze because the recipients want to run f**king Macromedia Director based "educational" programs.
A local non-profit had a bunch of old Pentium IIs sitting around and one decent 1.7Ghz Athlon. I set up the slow machines as thin clients. You could save money by investing in a good home network and only upgrading your server. Give everybody in the house that needs one a thin client.
... the major vendors made their desktops even easier to upgrade for people. If it was as easy as pop a few snaps, lift out the mobo and reinstall a new one, with the vendor taking back the old one, that might help. Yews, this is most doable for anyone on slashdot, blah blah, but for this typical/mythical "joe user" out there it is too intimidating by far.
It is also a shame it'sso hard to find legacy ram, with all it's randomness in config, and the expense. there are zillions of PCs out there that could be easily used several years longer if they were able to easily find/purchase/install the ram to it's max config, without having to shell out more than what a new lightweight system costs now. I've got a nice roomful of older machines, hardly any of them will run a modern linux with a gui desktop. the processor speed is adequate, it's the ram that makes it difficult. I'm on a 1996 IBM right now (FC1 OS), and it was only possible to make this functional-enough by installing a lot more ram. Yes, you can go online, use various vendors configurators, then get sticker shocked back to reality. And most people out there just don't bother,lack the skills, and it's hard to do for a lot of people, they are forced to upgrade their entire machine almost. This is inefficient to a large degree. I realise that is changing, and again, I am not referring to your typical slashdot reader here, but it's still a pain for most people. I know that the older machines I build to give away to local farm kids get given with older win OS (usually a fresh clean install of whichever was on the machine, usually 95 or 98 obviously) because I can't afford the utterly ridiculous prices that the RAM vendors charge, so I can't put a modern linux GUI system on them. And the prices are ridiculous in the first place BECAUSE the vendors are so freaking cheap, leaving the RAM slots unfilled in the vast bulk of PCs that have shipped over the years.
Perhaps if the (major) vendors only shipped machines with the maximum amount of RAM possible already installed as a universal industry default, this might help, machines would last longer as practical tools. That is as easy as "stroke of the pen, law of the land" action there. And if they all did it, the price ratios would still be the same, albeit higher, but, overall prices have dropped so much from even 10 years ago I don't see this as a problem.
This is really something local governments need to handle. If there was a local recycling center I would be more than happy to drop my computer off there. But at is stands there is nothing anywhere near here so my only option is to pay to ship it somewhere, which can be quite expensive.
//m
A Watt is a unit of power, not of energy. Saying a server uses 300 Watts of power per second is like saying a car drives at "300 miles per hour per second!"
Besides, the steady-state power a typical computer uses is far less than 300 Watts, even the new P4 beasts. The reason the supplies are rated as high as they are is to provide the peak power required -- you know, if your CD drive, hard drive, graphics card, and CPU are all drawing lots of power at the same time. If you have an MP3 server on the network, don't attach a monitor to it (and don't have some silly 3d screensaver going while the monitor isn't even attached) and don't use the cd or hard drives in unusual ways, your steady-state power usage is likely to be 100W or less. That's one bright incandescent lightbulb.
As far as I know, not much people know about this, but if you plan on using your old machine as a server this will probably come in handy. http://www.gnu.org/software/gnump3d/
I just heard some sad news on talk radio -- Radio Talk Show host Rush Limbaugh was found dead in his New York home last night. The coroner has not yet officially ruled it a suicide, but apparently that's what it's going to be ruled.
I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will mourn his passing -- even if you didn't agree with him, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an American icon.
"...go for LCD monitors instead of CRTs and, if replacing, reuse the old one as an MP3 server on your home network."
Does he mean use the CRT monitor as an MP3 server or use it to monitor an MP3 server?
Can we please get some editors for this stuff?
No sig for you!!
If you own stock in a computer company, consider submitting a stockholder resolution encouraging the company to take responsibility for its products at the end of their useful lives. Companies are increasingly responsive to measures like these.
Dear Mr. Gates & Mr. Ballmer,
Please stop generating bloated software that requires ridiculous computing power to perform basic tasks such as word processing, email and spreadsheet analysis. Your actions are causing widespread damage to the environment, as users are forced to buy new machines to keep up with your latest service pack's requirements.
In the meantime, our company will be switching to Linux and Open Office. It runs just fine on our older Pentium II's and III's.
Thank You,
Your Shareholders
Ruby on Rails Screencast
We collect old/outdated computers, set them up to run Knoppix, and then send them to destitute schools in Peru. Everybody wins.
Fnord.
Serious request for information. I've got a few computers. Being in the 200 to 500 Mhz range, and not having hard drives, CD ROM and so on, The two donation areas I know of in the area won't take them.
Cambridge Chamber of Commerce
and
TechChange
Are the ones I know about.
Any other places I can donate these barebones systems, or any users looking for parts?
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
For the last 7 years or so, my wife and (more recently) kids have used a P166 Windows box for casual home use -- web, email, word processing, etc. Over the years I've added more memory, a second hard drive, CD burner, etc. Despite this, I finally broke down and bought a new computer (kids want something that will run new games).
As for the old PC, I'm reluctant to throw out a perfectly good machine. I'd like to install Linux on it, but I'm not sure if it's worthwhile for a PC this old. Can anyone suggest particular Linux distros or configurations that might be more friendly to a slower old PC such as this?
From the article:
Even after buying a new machine you might want to hang onto the old one instead of tossing it. Consider networking the two computers, or use the old computer to play MP3s or serve some other specialized function, such as acting as a Linux platform.
whether or not to run an old computer or recycle it should include an environmental and economic cost decision on how much electricity it consumes a month if left on for mp3/ftp/etc service.
California will add a recycling fee to the cost of new computers and televisions starting July 2004,...
Might I suggest that anyone seeking to purchase a computer in California after July 2004, to instead jump in the car and drive north to Oregon to make the purchase?
We have no idiot fees here and NO SALES TAX for anyone, on anything, at anytime. There are several well-stocked and knowledgeable PC stores in Medford just across the border. The trip is about 400 miles each way.
The drive from the Bay Area is beautiful on the Hwy 101 route (same highway number, but not the demon road of Silicon Valley) and goes through one of the most beautiful places on Earth, the Redwood National Park. There are interesting and inexpensive hostels to stay at in both Kalmath (1 mile north of Trees Of Mystery) and Ashland.
Even with high gasoline prices, the savings from not paying the idiot California sales tax and the new recycling fees make the trip worthwhile. Plus the beautiful scenery is rejuvenating experience for those who spend far too much time staring at symbols on a PC monitor.
If there is anyone in the Sacramento area that is giving away free computers or parts email me... i am trying to build a computer for school, and my small student budget doesn't quite cover the cost of building a computer. so if you are feeling generous and have some parts to spare email me and let me know. bullring23@yahoo.com
Bullring
Let her count the TiVo. I think you're gonna win no matter what. "Living Organisms?" Toilet bacteria alone are going to allow you to buy thousands and thousands of PCs. Never mind your intestinal bacteria, houseplants, and any pets you may have. To be fair, she could also legitimately count the dozens of embedded computers in everything from your microwave to your alarm clock, but she'll never come close to that household bacteria number.
Seems NeonFrog mentioned my recent study :), that I joking titled "Electric Power Consumption at a Duplex". I was trying to figure out why I pay $65/month for electricity, for 2 people in a ~900 square foot duplex. I had a good idea why...
4 400/P4400-CE.html
I used a borrowed power meter (neonfrog) to measure the consumption. I recorded 2 items, length of time the data was recorded, and kWh consumed during that time. I only went after my chief suspects. Other appliances in use but not measured for the curious: washer/dryer, stove, lamps. Propane heat/hot water.
Power Meter Info: KILL A WATT (tm) Model: P4400 KILL A WATT Http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P
GE Refrigerator (old, not ancient, not huge) @118 hours: 32 kwh
Computer, on all the time,Win95, Cyrix 166+ processor, 200W power supply. @98.5 hours: 7.24 kwh
Monitor, 19" Princeton, on all the time. 25 hours: 1.5 kwh
Estimated Usage/Month (30 day) Cost(Rate:11.74 cent/kWh)
Refrigerator: 195.3 kwh/month $22.93/month
Computer: 52.3 kwh/month $6.14/month
Monitor: 43.2 kwh/month $5.07/month
I'm trying to figure out how to let my landlord know that replacing the refrigerator is a good idea. If my landlord spends $750 or more for a refrigerator, then I could save $15/month. Rent might rise, but my month costs will remain the same. The only motivation is environmental conscience...I will be leaving this duplex in 3 months. I have an idea that the electric company might have some program to motivate people to upgrade to new appliances. cheers, Bollux
Reminds me of a story a customer told me. They had a crap load of old 486 machines that were old PoS machines, he needed to get rid of them so he threw them all in a dumpster behind his condo, a neighbour saw him and looked at the computers, which had a very clear label "Property of XXXX" (his company), well the guy called the cops, next thing the IT director knows, he's being arrested for theft of computers, HIS computers... So before you throw out your crap, make sure your neighbour isn't watching!!
Mod +5 Drunk
Portland, Oregon is home to "Free Geek," a really neat PC recycling / refurb effort:
http://freegeek.org/
They charge $5 to recycle a PC or monitor. If it has usable parts, they strip them out and use them to build Linux-loaded PCs for schools, nonprofits, and the like.
Labor comes from volunteers. They will give you a PC for every six you build / refurb.
Stefan
You may find much more tips and tricks how to use a computer with ecological awareness in the Linux-Ecology-HOWTO, which is also available at the The Linux Documentation Project - TLDP and in Japanese.
...I think this might be the most useful and informative /. article of the year!
I do that all the time. I'd much rather donate my time to a cause I believe in than pay taxes to support bombing the shit of a bunch of poverty stricken brown people I never met.
yah the quality sucks, the lifetime SUCKS, the refresh and video rates suck, they COST twice as much but yeah help the F'n vendors push useless crap by buying an inferior product so they don't have to work at making CRT's enviro friendly. Personally I've noticed there IS NOT AN LCD manufacturing plant in the WESTERN WORLD. So let's all buy a foreign made electronic device to help the environment, whomever wrote this article is getting a kickback or just plain works for the LCD companies.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I have lived rural for a long time,sevreral places, and have a lot of different dial up modems (and various boxes of course).(I build old systems and give them away as well) The older modems work MUCH better on staticy noisy rural phone lines than the newer ones, there's no comparison. I currently use a USR 33 sporster faxmodem external, because it works better (throughput, reliability, ability to stay online) than any of the 56k modems I have. they sit in a box, I have given up on them and won't purchase another. And just setting baud rate doesn't help the newer modems, for some reason they are much flakier and tempermental. And when it's storming out, I can drop down even further to a 14.4 and consisitently stay online, when even a 28 or 33 modem will click off and lose connection all the time.
I'm not an engineer with these things, but that is my anecdotal observation. I am assuming it is line noise. Ask folks where they live maybe, if they are in an area with dismal phone lines, those 33's might be the ticket, and could be used more effectively for the purpose intended.
I also have an extremely hard time putting any functional linux system on these old pen 1s I give away, I just posted on it elsewhere's, the problem I have is legacy ram, lack thereof, too expensive to track down and purchase, etc, so I slap 95 or 98 back on them after a nice format to remove whatever accumulated BS I inherited with the box. I boot to see what's on it, then erase it and start fresh. I WISH there was a gui linux that would work *without* being a guru and jumping through hoops on these older machines. I'm not about to try and setup some exotic combo of arcane stuff that would make me the tech support person forever, so heck with it, back MS goes on those boxes with their 16 or 32 megs of ram. And knoppix won't, either, tried it. You really need around 128 it appears for it to work adequately, at least when I have tried it, last release from a coupla months ago. It works well for me on 128 and up machines, 64 megs gave me fits. So that's not an option, neither was morphix, tried that, too. If someone has (is aware of) a distro on a CD that will graphically install(or sanely and easily text install for any newbie), run a decent GUI desktop once installed, has a lot of decent normal "joe surfer and do some text stuff and a little media action" apps, all on 16 megs minimum machine of at least pent 1 class of say 100 mghz,with the caveat they are barely 2 gig machines, usually even less, some under 1 gig hard drive, let me know. It has to be no harder to install than 95 or 98, and be useable by NON gurus. I'm not a guru, just a hobbyist, not much command line expertise. Some, not a lot..
Help mother nature by leaving a 250-300W device running 24x7 and consuming electricity. And to produce this electricity, let's burn shitloads of coal and oil byproducts. Now that's a lot cleaner than an ounce of lead sitting somewhere in landfill.
Yea. Lets all reuse our old slow computers and waste more electricity. The problem is when people set up "MP3 Servers" and what not they leave the machine running 24/7. That wastes a lot of electricity. Do you leave the lights on in your home all the time?
There are places that you can take equipment to be disassembled and the metals, glass and plastics be extracted.
Donatations to Computer Recycling Center is one example of getting rid of an old PC. But if the parts are too old they will want money for disposal. There are many places like this. It is a far better solution than using old PCs as "servers".
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
... take it with you when you move. Lot of decent low energy fridges out there. Last place I lived (as an estate cartaker) we used mostly solar, the owners of the place got a sunfrost fridge and a freezer that I used. Significantly better than what was in the house when they bought it. I'm sure there are others, the slickest ones I think are both low energy AND dual fuel, usually an option like electric/propane or electric/kerosene. Helps when the power goes out...... The one in my RV camper is electric/propane, works well, doesn't even have a compressor, uses that ammonia absorption stuff.
If the PCs are enough to run something such as a terminal client, or even linux or win 98..... Donate them to a church, or a school, or some non-profit support group in your area.
There is no need to trash a somewhat current computer.. there is always someone that can use it that has nothing now..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I loved freeboxen; it was great having a place to give away or trade systems, bits and pieces of hardware, etc. in a geek-to-geek fashion. I passed along some spare bits I had lying around that way. I've tried giving hardware away on craigslist but no takers thus far.
Heck, I'd be willing to host such a site; anyone know of a software package that would be good to use for such a function? It's been a few years so I don't quite recall how the posting/claiming of hardware worked, but it seems to me it was customized for the purpose.
- Leo
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
Posting this subject to Slashdot.
This is the same set of people who want to go to the moon and to mars just because they feel like it would be okay to trash those two beautiful heavonly bodies since we've already trashed the earth.
Second, find local recyclers that will take the old computers or pieces. My impression is that recyclers specialize so you may need to disassemble them.
Third, there are programs like FreeGeek in Portland that take donated computers, rebuild them, and give them away. That would be another useful program.
Thou shalt not throw ANYTHING away!! EVER!!
http://www.systemrecycler.com
Older is better....
If you don't want it, I probably do..
Yeah!
You could take that old P75 with it's 300MB hard drive and... well... you could put like 5 or 6 CDs on it.
Ok, so you buy a new hard drive and video card to replace the ones you gutted out of it for your new PC, a network card since the old PC only had a modem, and by the time you've spent all that money your neighbor has an iPod one tenth the size that does the job way better!
I've got a PILE of old computer stuff I'd love to do something with, but it's so obsolete it's not worth it.
I just don't have the heart to throw away that old 300 baud modem!
I'm not so sure, as I'm still running a K6/500 with Windows98. Each year, the tax software (TaxCut) seems to run more slowly. This year's has really nice-looking graphics, but the rendering is definitely sluggish. It's also kind of buggy, and makes me wonder if they're using OpenGL or DirectX.
The software that came with last year's scanner also has fancy shaped windows and buttons, but runs like a dog.
I take my old hardware and push them to the side table and install US Agent on them and let them do more work in the last two years of their life than they did in the first two. Machines I considered unstable typically stay up more than 8 months at a stretch, with their CPUs maxed-out virtually the entire time.
I also run it as a background process on my current machine. Keep the priority below the normal process priority and it's totally transparent to any other operation.
A few non profit organisation accept old computers (Pentium II's/Power PC's and upwards) check if they work then send them off to people who need them (Africa etc) even though the PC's are junk in our world they can be used for 10-15 more years (who needs a GF4 card and 120 GB HDD to write documents in Word 95? Nobody)
So, please donate them to charity. (Tax deduction!)
True for your house, yes. But not necessarily for the total amount of energy. If you heat your house with oil, almost all chemical energy in the oil is used to heat the house.
Yeah... if you have an efficient furnace.
I'm currently in Ottawa, Canada - either the coldest or second coldest world capital. I'm renting, 'cause there ain't no way in hell that I plan on living here permanently. And the house I'm renting has a 35-year-old oil furnace.
Estimating its efficiency at 70%, I did some calculations based on my best oil quote. I looked up the BTUs of heat per gallon of heating oil, and compared it to the BTUs of heat per kWh of electricity. Since electricity here was fixed at 4.3 cents/kWh (up to 4.7 cents/kWh as of April 1), it was cheaper to heat by electricity. The situation would have been different if I were using a newer oil or gas furnace.
Remember, all electricity consumed inside the house, in one way or another, heats the house - the exceptions being the small amounts of light, sound and RF energy which escape. My roommates loved it - "Go ahead, leave the lights on, but close the blinds first!"
Therefore, I heated my house with electricity. I'd been planning on running a stack of Pentium-I class machines doing SETI@Home work units - at least the energy gets used for something productive on its way to becoming heat - but didn't have time to build the rack to hold all these machines, nor to duct them into the cold air return on the furnace. So instead I picked up a few $20 ceramic heaters and threw them into a big steel box ducted to the furnace and controlled by the thermostat. My electric bill from January to March was $425 - and that includes heating, lighting, the dryer, etc. - very impressively low!
But if you use electricity (be it through the computer or whatever), it takes much more energy to produce the same amount of (electric) energy, if it's produced in a fossile fuel power plant. A coal plant that only produces electricity has, what, 50% efficiency maximum(?). The rest of the energy is wasted in the process. If the electricity is produced in, say, a hydro plant, that's another storyVery true. Most people who think electric cars are a good idea, simply don't understand anything about electrical generation and distribution systems (like, how many coal and nuclear plants are gonna have to be built when 10,000,000 Los Angeles commuters start plugging in their electric cars every night?). It was even rampant in my electrical engineering courses in university!
In Eastern Ontario, given our proximity to Quebec, I'd assume that most of our energy is imported from their hydroelectric dams. But either way, my rationale is cost. Generally, saving money is the most powerful incentive to cut use of resources.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Yes, you can hit OfficeMax, or Fry's, or Best Buy... and as you do, yet another computer goes into the landfill. Go ahead... purchase whatever black box you can buy the cheapest... but that's not what this article is about.
Also, I'll wager the uber-cheap router you just purchased doesn't have any IDS capability (like Snort), or a cacheing proxy, or eye-candy graphs, or remote management via SSH, or any of the other nifty features that smoothwall offers.
Yes, your hardware might not last... but the point is this: It still works. If you could keep it as a useful tool instead of turning it into a groundwater-polluting hazard, why wouldn't you?
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
When they're taking them apart, becareful of the capacitors. I assume you're already aware, but they can hold a few hundred volts for quite some time. An old guy with a heart problem might have a bad day.
Yes, you pay more for the same performance in a notebook PC, but the cost difference has narrowed a lot. The reduced electricity consumption does help offset the difference in price to a small degree (maybe $30 per year).
I keep my notebook PC for five years. That's tough for a nerd to do, but I believe in reducing consumption, even in the face of Moore's Law.
I hate waiting for a PC to boot. Linux is great because it doesn't need to be rebooted daily. I leave my PC running 24/7 (NOT ecofriendly), but it recycles unused clock cycles doing SETI@home research when I'm not using it, at least until Linux is better about suspending my computer and almost instantly restoring it.
Eco tip -> Turn off your laser printer any time it's not in use. Power saving modes help, but laser printers usually suck more power than large desktop PCs.
>> My ultraviolent Linux switch video.
If you can provide your or your charity's contact information, I'll pay to ship you a couple of systems with Linux pre-installed. Just tell me what flavor, give any config details, and I'll do the rest. Happy to see working hardware go to a worthy cause.
- Leo
You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right.
I take older machines, turn them into development stations or rebuilds or servers for my own whims.
I use my computers until they're useless in almost every way.
http://freshmeat.net/projects/edna/
Edna makes a great mp3 server , easy to setup too. Runs on python so it works for almost any OS.
I just add another node to the cluster! Seriously, an iBook with it's RAM maxed out has no further upgrade capabilities. (or any apple for that matter) Thats one of my biggest complaints (Mr. Jobs! pay attention.) about apple hardware. Why not design a more modular component based system? Maybe because it costs more, profits less? I think apple could make an upgradable model profitable. (Ok, nobody makes laptops very upgradable becase the chips are all hardwired to the board. At least they could make CPU upgrades for the tower systems)
TallGreen CMS hosting
it's a delaying tactic... but it's a worthy one.
But say the average install of SmoothWall is on a Pentium 100 machine, and it lasts for 3 years before being replaced because of failed capacitors in the power supply or a dead CMOS battery or a blown hard drive. All you've done is divert the machine from the landfill for three years.
Or you could replace the fan in that power supply to prevent its death... or replace the power supply entirely, or even the hard drive (if you're really cheap, ebay should provide plenty of old parts). Why replace the entire box for the failure of a single part?
The longer we can make a product's life cycle last, the longer people hold onto it, the less of a throwaway item a computer becomes. I'd love to see computers become more of a "durable good."
What it's really all about is making use of old hardware by running a specialized, task-specific, lightweight OS that doesn't require XP's resources. You understand what I'm talking about... linux in general is great for things like this.
Now, you'll never game on such a machine (one of the things that's driving bigger/faster computers), but you'll save it from an early death.. and the more times we can do that, the slower our landfills will overflow. It also might make people understand that they can do useful things with the computing power they already have, and that they don't need to buy company "X"'s marketing hype that they NEED a 3ghz computer to do websurfing and word-processing..
I'm not an environmentalist, but it makes sense to me.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I refuse to buy one of those overpriced LCD displays with their crappy refresh rates. Also you have to look at them from the right angle, or they turn all funky colored.
Please flee in terror in an orderly manner.
A bump or scratch of the glass on an old monitor CRT can cause an implosion, with bits of flying glass and toxic phosphor dust flying everywhere. The CRT itself also acts as a capacitor, and can hold a charge of thousands of volts for months at a time.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Stripping the computers to reduce the waste is very useful. Monitors, not so much, given the danger.
I recently moved and had to pare down my garage full of no-longer-useful computers (about 25 computers & 10 monitors). I first set a cutoff of 17" for monitors, anything smaller had to be gotten rid of. Thankfully there was a local recycling center that would accept them for free (California, USA).
As for the computers, I kept a couple, about 10 went to the same recycling center as the monitors and the rest I stripped down to the metal chassis. The stripping turned 30-40 cubic feet of junk into just two boxes of motherboards, hard drives, riser cards, etc. The remaining pile of steel and plastic was slated for recycling but ended up being trashed. The boxes of non-disposable stuff ended up moving with me and sits around waiting to go to the hazmat recycling center.
Did taking the useful parts make the safe disposal of the rest of these computers my responsibility?
By taking the memory and hard drives I turned two of those computers to something that someone else could get working with the addition of no further parts to complete junk.
I said they had not erased the hard drives? Well whoever was responsible for the disposal of these computers had sprayed them with fluorescent orange paint.
So, does putting the computer to the curb relieve you of the responsibility of disposing of the toxic waste, if someone takes them away? It might merely mean that a cheapskate has grabbed them, put them in their car, taken them somewhere, to examine them, and determine if they held anything of value. And then put them right back on the curb when they determined there wasn't anything they wanted...
You'll have to explain to me how an older machine as an MP3 server burning electricity 24/7 is better on the environment than just taking the old hard drive out and putting it in your new machine and using IT to store MP3s.
:)
If you really want to save the environment, give the old computer to a local youth. Youths like getting free computers. Especially with games. And SNES emulators.
Yeah! Breaking copyright law to save the world!(at least the chinese world where most of this stuff ends up, but shh!) It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!
It's been a long time.
You wouldn't conserve much space by stripping the monitors. The inside is filled up almost completely by the tube. You might save a bit of weight by ditching the plastic case. I'd roughly guess 20% of the weight is the case.
I know you said you no longer sold the computers, but why not sell just the monitors? I doubt many people would want technical support for just a monitor. And selling them for reuse would be much better than recycling. I guess it's probably a rare person who wants a monitor without a CPU. You might also consider selling computers and monitors over eBay. It's unlikely the buyer would want technical support then.
I ordered mine from here (no affiliation, just happened to find it.)
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.