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Off Grid Via Slow Moving River?
einstein writes "I live out in the middle of nowhere, and I lose power at the drop of a hat. My house is right next to the Susquehanna river, and all the kinetic energy going past my house makes just want to go off grid. Most homebuilt hydro power is lower volume/high speed. What would be a good, unobtrusive way to generate electricity from a high volume/low speed body of water? I'm between two large hydro dams, so the water level is fairly constant, but does tend to fluctuate 4-6ft in the winter due to ice floes and melting snow. I think maybe a miniature version of one of the recent submerged tidal generators might work... Does anyone have some suggestions on how I might go about this project?" More than a few people have done this before.
did something similar, they had a line of floating grain mills across the Tiber (no ice there though) in the late empire period. Find a good high current area and build a paddlewheel boat basically with the drive attached to a generator and use anchors in the riverbed. It might not generate a steady high elec current so you might want to put in a bank of batteries and converter for peak demand. Since the paddlewheel is in the back the boat draft would break up at least thin ice. With underwater turbines your talking alot of cost both in construction and maintainance. Hers another option http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/hydromauro.html
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
If you manage to generate your own power (wind, water, solar, whatever), stay on the grid because YOU can feed the grid, and the power company (usually) has to credit you. Yes, keep some of your own power stored up in batteries, but sell the excess and pay off the costs of setting this up.
Didn't anyone ever tell you that water and electricity don't mix? That's good enough for me.
Doesn't everybody have there own anti-matter reactor?
I'm a big fan of Home Power magazine. They focus more on solar solutions, but you'll catch an occasional article on hydro. Best part is you can download the current issue for free (after registration).
imagine a beowulf cluster of micro turbines....
I generate my power using a quantum singularity.
You woudn't happen to wear a 50's era bifocals and live in a van down by the river?
What would be a good, unobtrusive way to generate electricity from a high volume/low speed body of water?
You'll need township approval before even thinking of constructing something that could possibly damn or slow down the flow of water.
I've noticed while wearing socks and walking on carpet, I often generate static electricity. Is there any way to harness this electricity to power my home, rather than shock me when I touch metal objects? In a related question, could I somehow generate power by rubbing balloons against my hair?
I bet you could build a low-speed, high-torque paddle wheel (it would need to have a lot of surface area being pushed on by the river). Then, using gear ratios, you can convert that to high-speed, low-torque that may be needed by your generator. Not being a mechanical engineer, I'll leave it at that. :-)
The basic idea behind hydro power is that you take the potential energy of water falling a vertical distance, and convert it to electrical energy. You will have trouble with that in your area. The fact that the river is slow movign tells me that the gradient in the area is very gradual, so it will be difficult to rig up a system where the water is able to travel a vertical distance. Basically you would have to build a dam to block the flow of water so it rises on one side.
I don't think tidal power would work unless the river level fluctuates daily (tidal generators produce power only during a level change).
My suggestion: forget hydro power, and build a windmill!
ok, say this person puts in a paddle-boat or what-not which drives a generator. Does this remove energy from the river? will the downstream hydro-electric plant have less energy?
You'll probably have to divert some water through a small sluice, but you'll have to find out if you legally can do this. You can emphasize that it will be 100% conservative, ie., no water will be consumed. A turbine in the sluice can be geared to drive an generator at higher speed. Will no doubt have to play with the size of the sluice and the gearing etc, since you will have essentially no head to play with.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" -- Dr. Strangelove
But then I saw that you were in England
Have you considered gas powered generators at all? They're likely to be cheaper, easier to maintain, more powerful, and reliable.
What are your electricity needs?
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
I'm not an expert on this but I believe you would also get wind off the river. So you could combine water turbines and windmills.
"Simple words such as 'better' or 'faster' are best used by simpletons. Life [...] is more complicated." - TMC
For all practical purposes I would say this is far too expensive. Where do you live?
Traditionally, the old grain mills used a big water wheel, which turned at a low rpm, to drive the mill stones.
An undershot wheel, where the water goes under the wheel would work, if you can force the water under, and not around it.
From there, simple gearing will give you what ever speed you need.
Why not just use humans? Just make a computer based reality world to keep them happy, and harness the energy.
There is a huge amount of material from the 19th century on mill design, and how to get the most out of river power. Try doing some research in a major library.
We need government approval to think? Damn. That's worse than 198
[MESSAGE CENSORED FOR YOUR PROTECTION]
You may need to rethink that idea if you have any sort of state regulations like we do here in Wisconsin. Here you cannot make any sort of man made diversion, dam etc without drawing a serious amount of heat. It is quite likely you will run into the same sort of problems where you live as well.
Got Code?
You either need water moving at a good velocity (kinetic) or some sort of height difference (potential) to generate a reasonable amount of power. (assuming you don't want a enormous paddle) I doubt you'll be able to dam the river in any way yourself without getting some sort of permit, because dams can have serious environmental impacts.
The only method would be to build a flume and a waterwheel. Start the flume high up-river and then direct it to a waterwheel. That would give you enough flow to get the waterwheel turning.
Of course, I don't see why couldn't just make a waterwheel that could lift enough water to keep it turning without any additional water.
In some places, as long as you don't completely block the flow, just about anything goes. It may be inconsiderate, but if it is, then you've got more than a few neighbors downstream to contend with when they find out it's you!
Common sense, fairness, and respect go a long way in the country. That's why it rules so fucking much!
Years ago my family spent a few years trying to get a 30' fix pier (that others on our street could use for free) built by our property. Between the hassles of the town, state and MEPA we gave up. Strangely a few years later a neighbor (and state senator) who opposed to our project build his own from our prints 100' away. I guess we didn't grease the right gears.
My advice, make it small, discrete, quite and easily removable. Be forward that running your own generator over a long period is probable cause for the DEA to search your house as a suspected grow-op. It sounds crazy but again it's all about politics.
Bonne Chance.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
... but there exists a tow-behind your sailboat generator I have seen. Looks like a dinky torpedo that is trailed behind, the little props spin, you get juice. It would do what you are looking for, easy to install, some power. Legalities of tying it directly to some point out in the stream-no idea, plus the safety factor of someone smacking into it.
found it
http://www.salt-systems.com/marine-wind.htm
with that said, unless a stream goes entirely through your property, ie you can control both sides of the bank and build a proper dam etc, which is a ton of hassle and permits and whatnot usually, I would recommend doing the normal tried and true approach of wind/solar/fuel genny hybrid as an adjunct to your grid power. Re arrange where you put your money into first which of the first two works better for your locale. You usually want all four for true backup solution in most places. that is a generalization, but mostly true. It's really a variable, it has to be customized to your location and needs. Site survey maps exist on the web that will show mean average sun shiney hours and mean average winds for your area that will help you make a determination of which method gets priority. the reason why the "hybrid" approach is so good is that usually most places in the US get a lot of wind in the winter, but less wind but more sun in the summer. but that just depends, some places it's so windy all the time wind alone with the fuel genny backup is good, other places solar is better,etc--just depends..
me = grid, some solar, backup aero-marine wind genny, two fuel gennys
good luck! Once you get your rig up and working, you'll ask yourself "why the heck didn't I do this years ago?" It's really comforting knowing you always have SOME power no matter what, and even better to OWN it.
Let me ask a follow-up question to this. If one were to generate power this way and stay on the grid to try to feed back power and mak some income (as well as have power if your system greaks down), how do you keep your river driven system in sync with the 60 cycle grid (which obviously must be done if you plan on feeding the frid)?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
what about building some kind of water-wing that, when placed in the water, oscillates from low position in the water to high position in the water - then somehow pull energy in off of that.
well here goes -- move
-- everyones not everybody and neither is everybody like everyone.
One thing that you can do is use a small hydraluc ram to move water up a hill. Once in a small, resivoir you then allow gravity to do its work. Nice thing about this approach, is that if you use a big enough pipe/ram, you can pump up enough water for using on other projects such as irrigation or a simple open flowing water stream.
And for many here, the ram does not use electricity.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The Susquehanna river is located in the Eastern USA, namely Pennsylvania, and it might also start in NY and end up in Delaware and Maryland. (New)Jersey may even see part of it.
..........FULL STOP.
Unfortunately, making a long-term sealed generator and submersible it is probably not a home project. I suppose it also depends on what sort of stuff coming down the river might eventually plug the rotors. But at least it would be submerged and hidden. As long as it does not impact river navigability (and you don't chew up a few swimmers with the blades, ha ha) who's going to notice and complain?
If you don't actually have a drop, the usual waterwheel, dam, etc. solutions won't work. You could try that Roman trick, if you are allowed to moor a barge in the river; put a big paddlewheel in the barge; hook it to a bunch of auto alternators, and get some power inverters?
If you had the paddlewheels mounted in the center of the barge and enclosed in an insulated deckhouse and turning all the time, probably (?) they would not freeze. (Just HOW cold does it get there? Flowing water, of course is never below zero...)
Check your local library's collection of 70's Back-to-the-land books. I know there are some principles laid out in one or more of the Foxfire books. A good book if you can find it is called "Making Do". There are great diagrams in there for elegant and simple, lo-tech solutions to issues like hydro-power, cooking, etc.
Mother's run dozens of articles on the subject through the years. Do they have a CDROM/DVD archive yet, anybody? That would friggin rock..
Real Goods catalog sells a generator that looks like a boat trolling motor or a minisub thruster, only with a bigger propeller. You anchor it in the river, and it uses the large volume of water flowing past it. I believe the river still needs to be moving at several feet per second, and has to be at least 2 feet deep- we're not talking mountain stream here. Needs to be a -river-.
The other way is to lay pipe along the river for quite some distance, to as low a point as possible. You need quite a bit of "head"(vertical delta) or a lot of waterflow; Real Goods' other generator system uses a turbine, with a customizable configuration of nozzles.
As for selling electricity back to the grid (aka intertie systems)- you can't always do that(ie, "sell" the electricity back), and even if you can, there are often limits on how much electricity can be generated. The power companies also get pretty pissy about people powering the grid, because if there's an outage, and a lineman goes to work on the lines he thinks are dead...well...fried lineman. Most inverters these days designed for intertie(which is what we're talking about) have safety features to prevent it from powering a grid by itself, but power companies still like to make excuses and may demand one of their engineers check out the system(at your cost of course).
Please help metamoderate.
just ignore me.. THe parent has some good insight. Why bother to reinvent the wheel, there is a reason that many people used water powered wheels on slow moving rivers.
..........FULL STOP.
Sneak out and clamp 12 to 120 volt convertors on passing motorboats, with wires going back to your house. The wires had better be long
Stand on the shore with a big shotgun, and demand that passersby pay you a toll in killowatt hours in order to pass.
Provide all the catfish with treadmills connected to generators.
Per Max Screck of Batman 2, set up your own power plant and connect to the nearby hydro plants. Provide a lot of paperwork that no one reads, that includes the part that says that your power plant actually drains power from the grid instead of adding to it.
Power hot air turbines from meetings of the Susquehanna River Basin Commission.
If all else fails, I'm sure that the orgone writings of Reich, the magic energy fields of Tesla, or the spoonbending force of Uri Gellar will give you an answer.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Instead of generating electricity use to water to bathe in. Once you have developed a stronger immune system you can move on to using the river for drinking water. Just leave the lights on
Seriously, almost any solution will cost more than conservation. Not only can you have a smaller generator, but you won't need as many batteries to store energy for peak periods.
Check out real goods and other suppliers. Good lighting, gas-powered hot water heaters, fridges and cooking... there are lots of nice appliances that can reduce your reliance on electricity.
As for generation- keep your options open. It may not be legal for you to install a micro-hydro generator, and solar or wind might be cheaper.
Information: "I want to be anthropomorphized"
... there are a lot of very interesting, new ways to place impellers, and energy transferance devices into the waterflow, which, just being moved by the motion of the river, will power a turbine... ???? .... profit, er, I mean, electricity.
/. right? theres got to be something cool in the archive about innovative hydrodynamic power systems.
the need to divert a water flow seems really really labor intensive, and also, very 19th century.
This is
do they sell at the same rate they buy from? depends on the state..
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
"Rumsfeld Lying Through His Teeth [moveon.org] "
Of course they would say that. Moveon.org is a branch of the Democratic Party campaign apparatus. They would claim that Rumsfield is a dirty rotten scoundrel whether or not he lied: just because Rumsfeld is in the other party.
It is like having a sig saying "Clinton is a Slick Scoundrel [rushlimbaugh.com]." That someone says bad things about their foe like this is neither newsworthy or proufound.
This thing is the only applicable product that I've ever seen.
Only in a Slashdot fantasy can a Slackware install turn into several hours of sex . . . . .
However, there would be many potential problems, especially the difficulty and cost of fixing a large overhung wheel with an asymmetric load over a river with fluctuating height (the wheel axis is going to need to rise and fall) and the regulatory problems: I guess you would need a license and it might be hard to obtain.
Another solution might be a hydraulic ram. There is the remains of one near where I live, that could raise water nearly 200ft. without an external power source, and was very simple and reliable. I guess some sort of license would be needed, but they are unobtrusive- there is nothing to see above water level but the exit pipe and the compression tank. Once the water is in a storage tank at high level, it can power a conventional turbine or an overshot wheel (more efficient than undershot), and the output can be adjusted to give fairly constant generator rpm regardless of load. Hydraulic rams can be noisy.
However, I wouldn't recommend going down either of these routes unless you are a qualified mechanical or civil (structural) engineer or both, and have good contacts in other disciplines.
The smallest hydro generator I have seen working, by the way, is at the end of the River Lyn in England. It's way bigger than you are likely to want ( I think I recall it's about 100KW) but when I was there in the early 90s it was still working. It attracts a lot of visitors from the US, and the whole place (including the water powered gravity railway) is a wonderful example of English quaintness.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
On the positive side, if everyone by a river did build one of these things, there would be less need for coal powerplants - THOSE are destructive to the environment.
No. You're an idiot.
Did you even bother clicking the link in the grandparent's post? The map linked to clearly shows that along with many cities labeled that happen to share names with cities in England...
Oh yes.. Mother Earth News CDROM archive. Glee. No word on what the 2400 articles contain, though..
Jack Rabbit Submersible Hydro Generator neat stuff
... does he use?
One of the weird things about enron is, they actually had at least one decent product. they made whopper wind gennys. GE bought them at fire sale prices and are still making them, last I knew. I actually tried to get some rich dudes to buy them out as soon as I heard of enrons troubles, but no see gar there sad to say. I think it's an excellent way to actually pay for a nice spread out in the country, make all your loot + pay for property + have oodles of free juice to play with. If I had the VC I'd do it/organize it, but never really tried anything that ambitious before. It gets quickly into 7 figures though for the whopper systems.
Split the river, so next to the original you have a very very low gradient river channel, carrying the water down-stream with little loss of height, then let it out of a small channel, a lower volume of higher speed water, sutable for driving small generators, there's a old water-mill by a village near here which uses the system, wheels gone, but the jet of water is still there squirting out into the lower part of the river.
You have Federal, State, and local regs you need to check out.
First, Federal. The Corps of Engineers handles 404 permits. You need this to discharge dredged or fill material into waters of the United States - fill material includes structures as well. You might be exempt (usually if you affect under 1/10 acre you will be), but you need to make sure. If you are going to affect any Federal Endangered/Threatened species (are any in/near the river?) you will need clearance through the US Fish and Wildlife Department and or National Marine Fisheries Service. This is usually coordinated through the Section 7 process of your 404 permit, but if you DON'T qualify for a 404 permit and there are endangered species, you have to do your own Habitat Conservation Plan and prepare a document under the National Environmental Quality Act (NEPA).
Second, State. The Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission regulates fish movements. "No dams, ponds, or other devices which prevent free migration of fish shall be erected or placed by a person licensed to propagate and sell fish in a stream flowing over the person's property".
I am sure you also have some type of dam safety office as well, if you go that route. Also, I don't know how water rights work in your state, but you need to check into that as well. You also might have a state version of NEPA (many states do).
Third, local. Check your local Planning department for applicable rules and regs.
I would do just as the parent says, some of this research will be invaluable. There are things which you probably haven't thought of like
filtering: stopping debris getting in
anti-fouling: preventing the buildup of algae and weed
governing: stopping the wheel going too fast in a storm
There is doubless a lot of 'lost knowledge' about - people have been doing this for hundreds of years and most likely the best solution is low tech rather than high tech.
They have all ready done that. Have you heard of Everquest? Star Wars Galaxy's? or Dark Age of Cammalot? All of those and i'm sure there are more are virtual reality that people spend alot of time doing. . . So the question is who is the genious who will figure out how to use the energy?
This is an inane request. Instead of going into cardiac arrest when the power goes out, learn to live without your computer. Candles and a gas stove are cheaper than the lawyers it'd take you to get the permits to do something like this, and they cause far less ecological damage than someone who has essentially no clue would stand to cause digging around a river.
If you have a legit reason why you need power(think dialysis machine that you'll die without, not internet you'll go into withdrawl without), some combination of your town and power company will give you a generator.
... as it would give /. editors and -bots another useful target to tilt at.
PS. Michael, you're a goat-pleasuring son of a one-eyed whore. Happy Easter, bitches!
The map also contains state names like New York, Pennsylvania and Maryland indicating pretty clearly that it's the United States.
Most companies that sell wind generators and such have equipment for generating 60 cycle AC current. Check with the power company for two way meters. They allow you flow power back into the grid and keep track of whether you are providing more than you are taking. You may not get much money per watt for what you are selling back but the big thing is you don't need battery back up. A huge savings and far less maintence. You'll need an electrician to do the hook up and sync you to the grid.
From the make-sure-you-have-plenty-of-candles dept.
How very optimistic of you Michael
-Colin
Because of the frequency, living along high-current streams and rivers may fuck with your DNA. I would suggest the use of a tinfoil field dampener if you are planning on living near any EMF generating bodies of water. Lakes and ponds are cool though.
Mod the parent back at least to 0, for the love of god.
I had a discussion about this sort of idea with the owner of a hotel I stayed at in Zambia last year (http://www.naturalmysticlodge.com) Its right on the banks of the Zambezi and we were discussing the options for making use either the solar or water power available. One of the snags with stuff like floating waterwheels tho was the local wildlife. Theres a hippo who comes by pretty much every evening to snack on the lawns, and having something that large bump your homebuilt water wheel could really mess with it.
I would suggest that hydro power is not the best way to go for an off grid home power system. You really need high volume/high head water source to harvest any appreciable energy; from what you've described, there is no appreciable head (vertical drop) to the river near you. As well, as others have pointed out, building anything in the water entails a lot of bureaucratic red tape.
I would say that solar or wind power is more feasible for most people. Solar is cheap in maintenance costs but expensive to set up, and you really need a lot of panel area to hope to supply your needs. Wind power is cheaper up front, but more maintenance is required because of moving parts, and noise from the rotors can be annoying.
Either solution will require a battery bank to store power to use when the plant is not producing, plus a good inverter to supply consistent 120v 60Hz power. If all you are looking for is protection from outages, the battery bank with a generator may be ideal from a cost/benefit perspective. The payback time of most alternative energy projects is in excess of 50 years, so think carefully before you invest.
LOL. Of course its legal.
Have you any idea what a waterwheel even IS.
Its a round shaped piece of WOOD.
At one time every mill in England was powered this way - it was only when the industrial revolution brought cheap mined coal that the environment started to go to shit.
I think you are wondering 'how could it be legal for someone to get FREE electricity?'
Well the strange news for city dwellers is that you can get pretty much anything Nature provides for free outside Metropolis - free clean water, free electricity, free natural gas, free fuel. You know you can even grow your own food and its LEGAL to eat it. We have a wood burning stove and guess what its LEGAL to put sticks on it, we have never had a lawsuit from the trees.
Its kind of sad that people are so cloistered and urbanised that when someone mentions doing what man has been doing for 2000+ years you ask 'Is it Legal?' Not everything in life must be by appeal to authourity, some people just LIVE, the way they want to with what is available, most often this is a better balance with nature than an industrialisded approach and has minimal impact on the environment. You don't shit on your own doorstep in the wild.
"My house is right next to the Susquehanna river"
Susquehanna hat company???
It's on bagel street!Where's bagel street?I don't know we'll ask somebody...
Please forgive me, this is about the only Susquehanna references that I'll see this year and somebody has to do it....Okay it's pretty f/n stupid, going to A/C this one
I have a lot of experience maintaining a large bank of rolls/surrettes and some trojans ( and others). One, they'll last a lot longer than 5-6 years, especially is you install a desulphator on the battery bank. They *work* as advertised, I highly recommend them. I've actually rejuvenated some marginally rank batts with them. neat stuff, the gov and some industries use them a lot to, to keep starter batteries "fresh" for long unused storage conditions with vehicles that only get occassional use.
On the batts, the rolls are definetly good, and definetly expensive, along with the crowns. I have found cost comparing, it might be useful to check out local forklift companies and get a battery bank from them. These are deep cycle "traction" batteries in steel boxes. Whoppers, and with batts, it's the lead, the size, bigger is better more or less. You can get a 12 volt bank for around 6-800$ that will hold twice (roughly) as many amp hours as the equivalent-in-money rolls batts. Plus, if you are near any big city with the foirklift dealer, you can go get the thing yourself,(heavy, be prepared for some egyptian engineering to get them in place with levers and ramps and dollies and whatnot) usually rolls batts need to be shipped in,too, kinda spensive...
the forklift batts come 12/24/ 36 / 48 volt so you can pick your voltage requirements. Most home systems are 24 or 12 volt at the storage, depends on how far away your panels are, and how much thick expensive copper wire you want to run. You can (if you really want to) CAREFULLY cut the welded busbars on the top of the forklift batts and do your own custom series/parallel wiring as well,to get whatever voltage you want (say knocking down the 48 to a 24) but I'd recommend just sizing for your needs and purchasing appropriately.
Good luck!
Most undershot watermills would not handle a 4-6' change in operating level
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
If you can get access to both sides of the river, you could try rigging up a floating power generator. They seem easier to home-brew than a turbine, and are probably accordingly less efficient.
e nergy/
There is a company in britaing that specializes in this kind of generator - one application that it lends itself to is water pumping from bodies that have a deep draft and a large amount of excess flow.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/thropton
I know that these are available from other places as well, and I'd be surprised if you couldn't make something like this yourself if you have a little motivation...
+++ ATH0 +++
" it was only when the industrial revolution brought cheap mined coal that the environment started to go to shit."
Yeah. Before that, someone in (let's say) 1850s London could drink from the Themes with no worries. Everything was so clean.
Assuming you mean the Susquehana River in Pennsylvania, you have to deal with DEP permits. A quick glance at the regs indicated you'd need
a) Dam Permit - application fee of $1500-$3000
b) Environmental Assessment Approval - free
c) Limited Power Permit for Hydroelectric - $5 application fee and $10-10000 annual fee (depending on capacity)
Not to mention any local or federal regulations (did you check the EPA yet?) or the permits you'll need for construction, etc.
There's also a 30-day public comment period before the DEP rules, and they estimate it will take 220 days or so to complete the paperwork.
Reference is from the massive PDF found at Department of Enviromental Protection
In short, you probably don't want to build a dam.
If you know of references that rebut the standard historical theory (wouldn't be the first time), please post links or titles. I'd want to read them
Anyway, it's my understanding that water mills began serious development during the "Middle Ages". Modern Western culture is descended from the great cultural renaissance of the 15th century, and we've inherited their prejudice against the "Middle Ages", that 1000-year period after the fall of Rome where Western progress supposedly ground to a halt. But this period was when people started playing with technology seriously, and thinking about ways to use it to make life easier -- and to get rich. In short, it was the period that gave birth to the techno-geek!
"...water pumping from bodies that have a deep draft and a large amount of excess flow."
Just when I thought I had that awful image out of my head, you go and mention it again.
In some British rivers, we have 'fish-ladders' that salmon & trout can climb up, so that they can still ascend the rivers to breed. These consist of a series of mini-waterfalls and deep pools. The fish think it's all great fun.
Stream Engine via Google - the top link (for me) is an owner's manual
The AC you replied to clearly acknowledged that when they wrote The map linked to clearly shows that...
This is what I like to call progress.
... is to build an aquarium with a couple of Electric eels. They sure don't cost much, and they can produce upto 600 volts of electricity. How's that for a solution ?
PS: Possessing Electric eels is illegal in Queensland. Not sure about the US.
But what happens when the cats over-eat, get fat and die?
Then you get dogs to eat the cats. If these become a problem, you get gorillas to eat the dogs. The gorillas won't be a problem, because, come winter, they will freeze to death.
I don't think the cats will be a problem, however. Garfield has been over-eating and very fat for 30 or so years now, and I still see his sarcastic face in the funny papers every morning.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
do cats know to keep the fish out? And do they work in shifts or what??
Some work in shifts. A few work in loincloths, but most wear the catsuits they were born with.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Yes, because windmills big enough to generate usable electricity never chop little birdies in half. Solar panels don't cause microclimate changes.
Not that I'm against him building a small hyrdro plant of some sort, but the nutcase manner in which you comment implies that you'd be against this, no matter how he planned on generating electricity.
I remember a mechanism that converts a lot of low pressure water into a little high pressure water.
Its a device called a 'water ram'.
I haven't really looked into hydro-electric power generation, but if most designs are for low-flow/high-pressure there might be a reason.
Were you aware that there is a region in the US that was colonized by folks from England? In fact they named it New England, and proceded to name many of the cities after cities in Englad. Maybe this could be the source of your confusion.
Step 1: Get a whole bunch of beavers and bring them up to your house.
... you get where I'm going with this.
Step 2: Introduce them to each other, let the sparks fly.
Step 3: Get a hydroelectric turbine and a post hole borer.
Direct away from face when opening.
If you are on the grid already, you would likely be nuts to go off it. Almost no homebuilt generator solution will ever pay for itself. YMMV according to your exact situation. Usually the thing that makes it practical (cheaper) to generate your own power is the cost of running power lines a couple of miles in from the road.
The posters who suggest conservation are right. It's a good idea anyway. Normally, a dollar spent on conservation earns itself back way faster than a dollar spent on power generation.
If I understand correctly, your problem is that the power goes off unpredictably. The solution to this is to store energy in batteries and use an inverter to convert to AC.
If all you are running is lights, such a system is really cheap. However, if you are running something with a motor in it (like a refrigerator), there is a gotcha. To start a motor, you need three times the watts that it takes to run it.
Example: Your main load is a 500 watt refrigerator. You have a few hundred watt light bulbs. You, of course, have a computer.
1 - The minimum size of inverter is 1500 watts to start your refrigerator. These inverters are available at automotive stores for people with RVs and big rigs.
2 - Use deep cycle batteries. These are sometimes called marine batteries. Ordinary car batteries are damaged by running them down too often. The deep cycle batteries don't cost any more for the same amp-hours. Regard a hundred amp-hour battery as being able to supply a kilowatt for an hour. Unless it is really hot out, your refrigerator doesn't run all the time. One battery should run your 'frig. for a few hours.
3 - Replace the hundred watt bulbs with the new energy saving florescent bulbs with built-in ballasts. You use them the same way you use the regular bulbs. They are now cheap enough that they pay for themselves.
4 - You can buy a powerful laptop with a dead battery for cheap. Mine uses 75 watts.
5 - Don't try to hook the inverter into hour house wiring. Have a separate circuit for emergency power. You need a changeover switch so the inverter and the power company can't be hooked to the circuit at the same time. If you know somebody with an RV or a big truck get them to show you how their system works.
The whole setup should only cost a couple of hundred dollars. You won't be able to approach this cost with a generator system.
I too live near the susquehanna river.
I have thought about this problem a lot over the last two years. My solution is low-cost, durable, and effective I believe, but does not work when the river is frozen. Use a small paddle wheel surrounded by square styrofoam floatation device. have the floataton device and a rod that functions like a broom handle connect to the paddle wheel at the axis point. As the water level changes the wheel will stay at a constant distace from the water as it rises and falls with the styrofoam around it. have the paddle wheel connect to an alternator using a rubber belt. Use the broom handle to maintain the tension between them. Attach the far end of the broom handle to a wire strung between two trees on each bank. Float 20 or 30 of these across the river and you can get some good amps. Gotta go help cook easter dinner, fill in the rest with your imagination... lol
Would a big submerged horizontal funnel act as a current transformer? I'm picturing a slow flow into the wide end and a fast flow out of the narrow end. If that works, you'd be in a better position to use regular equipment.
A couple of details:
You have received this message in error.
The money you would spend in getting Federal, State, and local permits would offset any savings you would incur from being off grid.
Since you said you are in the middle of nowhere I'll assume you are closer to NY than MD. Not that it matters, I'm just trying to think of a place that is in the middle of nowhere on the Susquehanna.
The conventional wisdom is that unless you harness a shitload of water (big construction here) and get houndreds of cubic meters per second then the kinetic energy is essentially worthless.
Commercial powerplants use the potential energy and since you live between to powerplant then smart money says they squezed all the juice out where you live. Lots of flow, zero energy.
Try playing with solar power instead...
TCAP-Abort
Who are you? John Connor or something? haven't you seen the films? Going off grid is all very well, but it doesn't change the outcome, and all the trees and plants you save with your off-grid power will die in the nuclear war... sheesh!
The Intermediate Technology Development Group (www.itdg.org) have an interesting factsheet (http://www.itdg.org/html/technical_enquiries/docs /micro_hydro_power.pdf) on "micro-hydropower", which gives a quick overview of some of the issues you should think about.
They're also a charity that's well worth supporting - they train and support people in the application of simple but effective technologies appropriate to their situation.
The world has changed and we all have become metal men.
This parent needs to be seen by the beauracratic hand-wringers and assorted whiners. If there's any red tape set up to prevent this, it needs to be cut RIGHT NOW. Of course, feeding into the grid is an entirely different story. And there is no way in hell anybody should attempt this project without spending three months in the library. Three years if you're going to tap into the grid.
I thought the point was that the shape of the colored areas of the map looks sorta like a distorted version of England. But I could be wrong.
Toodle Pip!
Of course, none of Pennsylvania, New York, nor Maryland are in New England...
I would recommend Google to help for lack of knowledge in Physics, Math or Sciences.
Will lead to a good first post
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Might be a solution. Here are a couple of links:P S/LUREG/ activities/LHHindex.aspc s/Low-Head%20background.p df
http://www.engineering.lancs.ac.uk/REGROU
http://www.itcltd.com/do
" an incontrovertibly brilliant physician who brought the full flower of Moral Management treatment to Williamsburg"
From The Galt Figures. He was a major figure in American mental health history.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Just found this
Energy fact sheet.
It's good some good details on permits and selling the power etc.
Wow, no shit Sherlock. Thanks for pointing that out cause all of us who somehow mananged to sleep through elementary school level history classes did not know that. The cities on the map have the same names as English cities, the colored area looks roughly like England, hence the original poster's joke...
you can power your entire house with something like this: http://www.japan.com/technology/index.php
I know most here think you need either a significant drop or a fast moving body of water. But wouldn't simply increasing the intake of your plumbing solve this? Suppose you would use the entire width of the river, say 10 meters, by placing a series of intakes in parallel, about 20 cm high, with enough plumbing to lead it all to one central tube next to the river, say 10 meters downstream. This would mean a 45 degree diagonal from the outermost intake to the central tube. I have no idea how fast this river is flowing, but lets say 1 meter per minute. (that's pretty conservative, isn't it?) That amounts to about 2 cubic meters of water per minute. Thats 2000 liters/min, or something like 500 gallons/minute. Acoording to realgoods.com, that could power up to a 20 nozzle system generating a lot of juice! A 20cm rise on the bottom would probably even go unnoticed. Sure, a lot of plumbing, but then clogging would be less of a problem. Any thoughts/reality checks?
Old grain mills were always built by the side of a river and hill. A bit of water would be diverted from a stream, to slew gate. It would then flow to the top of a 30 foot paddle wheel with buckets to keep the water in. The wheel turned a shaft that was then geared down to turning the mill wheel. If you have seen the movie 'The Princess Bride', they have something similar in there where they are torturing the main hero. The buckets are important as they keep the water in until they are horizontal, getting the most out of gravity. Something similar should be possible if you have a hill near you. If you can get a picture of the mill at Appomatix Court House you should be set.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
There are fuel cells providing power today... even yesterday.
I believe the famous example is an Alaskan US Post Office that runs completely on fuel cells provided by UTC www.utcfuelcells.com
I'm not sure about the economics of running your own power plant, but you could probably power a little community with one block http://www.utcfuelcells.com/commercial/index.shtm
I'm not sure about the reliability of your own power plant, but I understand it is much more efficient, better for the environment, and possibly cheaper than the grid system we use today.
Somehow I doubt you'll be able to pump any power into the grid unless you manage to generate it at exactly 60Hz and permanently stay in phase with the grid. Doesn't sound like an easy task at all.
Buy one of these power plants from UTC and sell off power to your neighbors...
t m
http://www.utcfuelcells.com/commercial/index.sh
Be a self sustaining community and stick it to the bastards in Big Energy.
these It's been awhile since I've seen one, but commercially made units are also available. Basically you trade off volume for head.
C|N>K
"It's been awhile since I've seen one, but commercially made units are also available. Basically you trade off volume for head."
That was part of the Clinton administration energy plan. It never got far beyond initial investigations in the Oval Office.
Whit if, however you decide to get the power (wind, solar, hydro, etc...) you use some of the electricity you gather, to pump water up into a storage tank or a small pond that is at a higher grade? Then, when you need it, you let it fall back down into the river, and generate some power on its way.
There will obviously be some loss but, if you use power that you do not need / are not able to sell back to the grid anyway, you are not really loosing anything.
Eliminating some batteries would also eliminate some of the environmental impact that old batteries have when they are EOL.
I think they did something like this on the Columbia River (perhaps a bit bigger scale than you are looking for, but the idea is the same.) James -- Want to be your own boss? 1) Drink Bawls 2) turn the emptys into lamps and drinking glasses 3) ? 4) Profit!!
ITPower say they "successfully installed the world's first commercial scale marine current turbine" off Lynmouth in Devon in June 2003:
"Seaflow - a 300 kW Marine Current Turbine. IT Power heads a consortium which has piloted the development and demonstration of the world's first commercial scale marine current turbine. IT Power experts were involved in the conceptualisation and design of a prototype 300 kW pile-mounted turbine that captures energy utilising marine currents (tidal stream). Currently, the prototype is being tested in the Bristol Channel at Lynmouth, North Devon, England."
Overshot Water Wheels for Small Streams
r re ncy=2&page=49513&category=1,46096,46100
edited by Leonard G. Lee
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccu
Build a floating dock. Very common for people living on the river. Make it as wide as you can manage without drawing attention. Eight feet would be good. If you have a lot of river frontage, you could even build two or three docks. The velocity is low, so you need to capture a lot of mass. This is kinetic energy, proportional to the mass and the square of the velocity.
Put a paddlewheel across the downstream width of the dock, maybe five feet in diameter, with two feet submerged. Nothing high tech is required. This doesn't need the optimal vane shape of a high pressure hydroelectric turbine. I'd use a shape that sheds debris to minimize maintenance.
Use a large belt around the outer diameter of the paddlewheel to drive an automotive alternator (very large gear ratio) with an external voltage regulator. This will cost about $20 at a scrap yard. Adjust the voltage regulator to produce 14V at the batteries to null the loss in the long wires, which should be at least 10 AWG. Use a circuit breaker at the batteries and the alternator. A charge controller will prevent overcharging if the regulator fails.
Charge a parallel bank of 12 V deep cycle discharge batteries, as used in golf carts, small boats or RVs. These are available for a decent price locally. Sealed batteries are good. Low maintenance, and no worry about explosive hydrogen offgassing. Keep the batteries warm, but vented to the outside air.
Use a power inverter to create 120 VAC. You can buy one that syncs to the power grid if you you want to sell power back to the utility, but I wouldn't bother. I'd cut the cord completely. You can buy inverters on eBay. Trace makes good inverters.
An alarm should monitor battery voltage and possibly charge rate. If river debris jammed the paddlewheel, you'd want to know sooner rather than later. A true geek would have it email if there was a problem.
I'd build a big cover over the paddlewheel assembly and maybe make it look like a barbeque grill or storage locker. I wouldn't go out of my way to inquire with the authorities. Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. "Gee, I didn't know I couldn't generate my own power."
You'll be surprised by how much energy you get from a small & slow moving paddlewheel. Unlike sun or wind, water power is 24/7, so your battery bank can be a lot smaller with a hydro power system. For about $500 initially and battery replacements and alternator brushes every few years, you can be off the grid. Most of us don't have a river and need to use solar.
>> My ultraviolent Linux switch video.
Ok, this really got me enthousiastic. This guy is truly a hydroelectric hacker. Check out those system charts, amazing!
One advantage of the ram approach is that whatever tank you store the water in (maybe just an above ground swimming pool?) will also provide you with a storage system, which means no batteries. (You will have to buy an hydraulic regulator of some kind though).
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
In fact, I have seen people rig up homebrewed windmills fairly easily with bicycle parts to transfer the energy and to experiment with different gear ratios. Bike parts are tough, cheap, plentiful and easy to work on. It seems to me that you could build a paddlewheel boat fairly easily and link the paddlewheel to a generator with some old beater bike sprockets. Go with steel, aluminum wears to fast for constant use. Instead of lubing the chain with oil, use grease. A nickel plated chain will resist corrosion as well.
there exists a tow-behind your sailboat generator I have seen. Looks like a dinky torpedo that is trailed behind, the little props spin, you get juice.
:-/
Hey.... maybe you could use the electricity to run a large fan which would blow in the sails and keep your sailboat moving even when there's no wind. Why hasn't anyone else thought of this before?
Freedom: "I won't!"
...is a doctor. He has a friend - also a doctor - who has the pasttime of collecting (!) small to medium sized hydro electric plants and steam engines. And this is in germany (Sauerland and the surroundings).
Here the rights to use hydroelectricity are bound to the plant itself.
I've read here that you need a permit and have to pay lots of money. I suggest you get the local politicians interessted in this and have the county join in on a project - just to save you some hassle with the work and paperwork.
Otherwise I'd suggest you find out if a wind generator costs any fee and is feasable or you take solar right from the start.
These hydroplants are very difficult to build and require experience and massive building (damming the river, lots of concrete, and all that).
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Here's something that sounds just like what you're looking for:
In the east channel of the East River, next to Roosevelt Island and in the shadow of the largest power plant in NY State, Verdant Power has been deploying a small farm of low speed turbines to tap the force of the tidal stream that flows back and forth in the channel.
In the scale you're interested in, a ten foot turbine can power 25 homes.
There is an article about it at the Roosevelt Island Wire website.
that link just describes the setup of the poster. big slow-flowing river where he can moor a boat in. HAve a big propellor-like turbine being towed behind it (2 metres across) and gear-up the rpms to drive an alternator. Shoulndt cost more than 5000 if you design and build your own turbine from fibreglass/GRP. (if it is not fast turning, you have a lot of leeway wrt inaccuracies with building it)
Too bad you don't have high voltage lines running across your property. If you did, then you could do like a farmer who roofed his barn in copper and got "free" power via induction from the overhead HV lines. I recall that the power company didn't like it, but the court ruled in the farmer's favor.
I've discovered a remarkable proof, but this margin is too small to contain it...
Static Generator
"the year the Government are"
That is more properly: "The Government is"
"actively PAY YOU TO DO THIS SORT OF THING"
This is just part of how Kerry plans to greatly increase the the defecit with more waste spending. If you thought it was bad under Bush....
" The hill thing
is basically what will give you your hydro head."
some of us relay on mermaids.
- http://www.wjffradio.org/
for them to be able to render him any assistance or inspiration. WJFF is a public radio station that is run entirely off a hydro generator(water conditions permitting). It makes a nice little case study for those who say it can't be done, or for those who do not live in a state that has net metering laws, or one with intolerably cumbersome restrictions.What's wrong with the classic European-style water wheel used in mills?
-psy
A sling pump doesn't use electricity to pump, rather the stored energy of the moving water. So use that to fill a tank at higher elevation feeding a small turbine. With a sling pump you just have to moor it (or tie it off to a dock) on a body of moving water. Check out Rife Ram for an example. I suppose if you were really industrious, you could use the runoff from the turbine to feed a hydraulic ram pump to fill the tank back up or another tank to, say, water the garden and lawn.
Do what my uncle did for one of his shops. It really *was* in the middle of nowhere. (I don't think you're within 1500 miles of "nowhere" if you're that close to NY, MD, PA, or OH. Anyway, he had a type 1 vw engine set to run both a sawmill and a generator. You set the idle way low, it just runs at a single speed, it's fairly quiet, and while gas ain't cheap, it's still a reasonable fuel.
While it may not be practical to buy from them, they may be able to offer pointers to someone more local or suggestions as to what you can practically do.
The biggest problem with sailboat generators is they're designed to be used when the boat is travelling at least 5-6 knots. That's very fast for a river, and nothing like the Susquehanna that I've seen. So they're definately not the low-velocity, high-torque units you seek. Secondly, they generally produce less than 1kW -- enough for lighting and electronics aboard a sailboat, but not enough for a home. Finally, they're expensive, suffering from low-volume production, and the "yachtsman's discount."
hahahahahahaha
perpetual sail motion! Why naught??? No probs you CAN get a patent from the US patent office!
They DO make "dynamic" sailors , they use the turbosails design developed by jacques cousteau, used on his ship the alcyone. Nifty stuff. I've also seen some plans but have not seen any examples of using savonius vertical axis rotors with sailing. They have made a lot of low speed high torgue electrical generators out of them though, the most common backyard cobjob using cut in half steel drums that are welded together in a "ying yang" shape that revolves around a vertical axis and uses reduction gearing (ususally an old truck rear end) to turn a genny or alternator. Sorta like your little home anemometer on steroids looking things.
Look, small personal power plants are not only legal, they're encouraged. I've been researching "Alternative Power" myself, and one site that I've found that is helpful is www.fieldlines.com
They have lots of useful information for creating electricity from various forms of generators, including hydro, solar and wind among other things.
As far as I know, if the structure doesn't alter the flow of water, there's no need for permits, rules, regulations... And ya know what? I wouldn't care if there were.
If I were to do something like this, and it didn't release anything into the environment and posed no risk to anyone or anything... Then hey, I'd do it -- We're taxed enough already, why ASK for more taxation?
Hey, isn't that what the whole "Boston Tea Party" was about? Seems to me we need another party.
-Phyre
"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thom
Wish I had noticed this story sooner, doubt anyone will notice this post now.
I was researching renewable energy quite a bit a few years back. I can't recall the site that I saw that had a lot of these, but they sound quite useful. they're basically alternators stuck in a prop, you put two decent sized rocks in the water to create sort of a jet of water (like when you use your thumb on a water hose), then put one of these in that.
here's one
The paddelwheel method is the way to go but actually putting it in the river would not be.
.15 of inch drop every 100 feet to move..and that is slow moving water.
More than likely this would be an illegal to do and dangerous as well. A better way to go would be a diversion channel that diverts a small amount of water from the river. At the top of the project or head would be a simple weir or gate to control the flow of water during the changing levels of the river. Depending on the amount of drop between the head and the wheel might give you higher speeds than the river itself could create. After the wheel you simply channel the water back to the river. The channeling back may be the hardest part of the project. As changing river levels might be harder to control and water may back up into the system. It depends on your situation. You may be able to gain a little elevation by using a shallower slope than the river has. Water needs at least a
In any case, you would need to survey the job and use an optical level or a laser level to determine the drop between where you pull the water out and where you put it back in. This could be a costly project depending of the generating needs and your state laws, county laws..etc. But the way stated above is probably the only way to do it legally.
You're probably also looking to miniaturise the cost of that recently reported snail -- $9m+ doesn't quite have it at the home-user (or even, dare I say it, prosumer) level!
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp =1200&sd=1201&ts=1017104
They sell a product called the Jackrabbit. Orginally it was used for oil survey sleds that were towed. This way you could mount them without having to build anything elaborate to change the water flow. This should work nicely for what you are wanting.
They hadn't yet put a tax on sunlight / gravity.
Better keep it quiet - we'll only give them ideas
Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
I believe the book you are talking about is this one, which I found just by Googling for the title...it was written in 1917, so it's a bit newer than you were thinking, though.
It's part one of a two-book set, apparently: "The Theory of Machines" is the whole thing, then broken into "Part I The Principles of Mechanism" and "Part II Elementary Mechanics of Machines."
Seems fairly interesting, although I'm not going to run right out and buy a copy (sorry, I'm broke) but if anyone does, and finds that it's beyond copyright, perhaps they'd like to scan some pages for us? Those old mechanical engineering books are fascinating, to me at least. I love the old pen-and-ink illustrations especially.
OT: Anyone who is similarly interested might also want to check out a book called "Steam" published by the Babcock and Wilcox boiler company. It was published annually starting I believe in the 1930s, although my edition is from the very early 50s. It's pretty much everything you ever wanted to know about making steam from burning stuff. (No, not exactly environmentally friendly, but it does work.)
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
LOL, it might help if you had some idea what you were talking about. The Sesquehanna is a navigable waterway, and 33 USC 403 seems to be of the opinion that you need the permission of the federal government to construct anything, such as the poster's waterwheel, which would obstruct that waterway.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
If you google for "micro hydel iit" you'll find
interesting hits on this topic. NOTE: Hydel is
the Indian-English term for Hydro power.
When I was working at IIT Delhi I interviewed
a young woman who had just completed a research
assistantship during which she and her professor
developed a generating unit that would fit your
requirements. They used a type of rotary pump
that is mass-produced cheaply in India (used it in
reverse of course), and they got good results.
Unfortunately I wasn't able to hire the young
woman, and I don't have any references for you.
I don't know what the average flow of the Susquehanna is but I doubt it's really a slow river. I do know the Mississippi is typically moving about 4 knots and it is considered by boatmen to be an absolute bear to travel upstream. Recreational boating in the main Mississippi channel is near zero because the current's just too strong. I'm betting your river is faster.
A sailboat (monohull recreational boat big enough to have a galley) is making fair time if he averages six knots. Six knots is enough to generate a helluva lot of electricity using a water generator (they call them "spinners" and some of them will convert to wind generators if you get the urge). These things are not even that expensive.
Contrary to some of the alarmist nonsense being posted here, as long as you are not messing around in a wetland (swampy, boggy marshy place) and you don't propose to do any dredging, the Corps of Engineers presumes that all docks and piers for small boats will be approved for riparian use on ALL navigable waterways as long as you don't interfere with navigation. Possibly you have stronger local regulations, but get your COE permit and I think everything else will fall into place pretty easily. Sink a couple pilings, hang the spinners deep enough to keep from freezing and I expect you're in business.
rent you a pair of nice copper bars for a reasonable price...
Done deal.
Look on page 125 of "Home Power", April/May issue.
(downloadable from www.homepower.com)
Lower right hand corner of that page, look for the ad titled "No-Hassle Water Power".
Though no web site is given, a google for the company shows it's a manufacturer of marine equipment and the device they are selling was originally designed for generating electricity on sailboats under sail power.
Some people build what's known as "microcentrals", which are esentially rotary water pumps working backwards. They make water flow into the pump so it turns the turbine and makes the engine act as a generator. I guess some modification is required to stabilize and clean the resulting current, but it shouldn't be too difficult to do. But no matter what system you're going to use, if you want a steady, reliable electric production you're going to need a water and some supplementary infrastructure (pipeline, energy dissipators, etc). That's where the city and environmental agency folks come in, and that's where it gets bumpy.
hydro systems Has some low profile, low head units.
Might want to think about a combo system, depending on how much wattage you're after.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Don't use the masturbation power station. Too much power.
Do not use that username/password.
Home Power is a very small grassroot-ish site. I've been dowloading their current issue for a couple of years now. A few months back they stopped just having a link to the issue on the front page and went to registration. The reason they need the registration is to prove how many unique visitors download and read the mag for their advertising rates on ads inside the magazine. If they can't prove their readership size, their ad rates fall. And they're not some big megacorp, they're already on a shoe-string budget. If you want to read it, sign up. They've never abused my info, and the magazine is awesome for the depth of info provided.
True story:
My neighbor wanted to take down his tree. It was 150 feet tall. The city only allows licensed tree cutters, which wanted in excess of 500$ to do so.
So... we took it down. Six guys and a 1987 GM pickup truck.
Mind you it took 5 hours, and had I not removed the gutters from my roof to work on the soffits, the top of the tree would have removed them for me (and probably much faster with less trepidation).
So the city makes a drive by midweek... and he gets a phone call and a citation for a whopping fine for not having used a licensed tree removal service. Convincing them that 6 guys and a pickup truck actually did the work took some time, but eventually he won.
He was then cited for not having replanted a tree within 10 feet of the road within 1 week (another ordinance) and fined 150$.
Face it- the government can and will spank you if someone gets their panties in a big of enough twist.
There are probably a lot of regulations to get through, but also keep in mind that in nearly all states, water ways are public modes of transportation. So if a craft can navigate it, it's officially public (up to mean high level mark) unless challenged.
l ity.htm
There are currently a few states with high-profile challenges going on, where a river runs through a persons property, so they own both sides of the river. Will be extremely interesting how these turn out.
Some good info:
Navigability:
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/access/navigabi
access issues:
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/access/
J
Back in the old EE days in college we tried to set up some wind powered electrical generators. The EPA wanted us to do an environmental impact study before granting us a permit.
If a well funded college could not afford it, I doubt an average joe can.
Good luck though. It seems like an interesting project.
-ted
Middle Ages: ~500 C.E. to ~1500 C.E.
Renaissance: mid 1300's C.E. to mid 1700's C.E.
The Dark Ages are rightly named. The late Middle Ages is when civilization reversed its deteriorating trend.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
If you have a hill or can build a tower with a tank on top (like the old wind mill towers), you could then set up multiple ram pumps (enough for the volume you need, with the head you have from that tank elevation) to place water into the tank, then the gravity feed from the tank will run your pelton wheel or whatever type you desire!
Make a big stink in city hall, and if the charges are not dropped, work for the opposition candidate and get rid of everyone in city hall and change the rules. Most cities are small enough that if you really work it yourself you can get rid of everyone in charge. (Not the big ones, but even then the suburbs are small enough that you can get rid of the current console if you spend your time knocking on doors every night)
Though as my dad says "You should never watch laws or sausage being made, for the same reasons". Still you can make a difference.
OK.. I grew up along the Susquehanna and have lived near it all my life. The stupidest things you can think of can be illegal for reasons you never thought of before, so it isn't as easy as saying "of course its legal." It sounds to me from his description that he's located somewhere below Rock Bottom Dam, after the Chenango River joins it. The river can have some wild fluctuations in level, has a tremendous high volume of water (second only to the Hudson) for NY, and anything you build is going to have to deal with the hazards that come along with that: ie your "power station" being flooded over or completely washed away, entire trees washing down river and turning wooden structures to floatsam, etc. You want to anchor a dock in the river, better be prepared to lose your water wheel. You want to make a dock/mill wheel that floats and is on firm footings in the river so it doesn't get lost? Better talk to the DEC and the Fish and Wildlife comission: they have a LOT to say about anything more than a few wooden pilings put into the river. The posters best bet would be a simple water wheel put on a wooden dock that was floated on plastic drums. Two concrete dead-men on the bank to anchor it into place and skip the batteries just in case he lost the whole contraption to the river. A better suggestion still would be to get out of this god-awful high tax, high energy cost, high pain in the gluteus maximus place (I worked rebuilding a bridge over that river once where the project was delayed two months just in case we might have disturbed the walleye from spawning) and get somewhere that he doesn't mind paying his electric bill. 10.55 a kilowatt here baby, we all love NYSEG.
You're in either Pennsylvania or New York. And you're on a river that has been actively dammed and controlled for over two hundred years. Which means that your property either has deeded mill rights, or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, you have no legal right to divert the water in the river to power a generator. Which is to say, attempting to divert river flow to generate electricity could get you in a world of trouble.
What about in-river systems?
Good question--and I'm sure that your state environmental agency will tell you. And I'd bet money their first answer will be "no." Bureaucrats are bureaucrats--and anything that is likely to cause them additional work is almost certain to be turned down.
This doesn't mean you're dead
What you can do to help grease the skids with your state authorities is to contact your local state legislator. If you're in Pennsylvania you'll find that a lot of legislators are extremely interested in "constituent service." Call the legislator's district office, and explain where you live (make sure you live in that legislator's district) and what you're trying to do. You want to know if the state has any information on the subject, and how you can go about finding out. You will be talking to an intern--a breathless, endlessly enthusiastic young person who is just itching to find answers. You may find it astonishing how quickly you will get answers--and since the question came from Rep. Stuffedshirt's office, the answer is far more likely to be "yes."
Visit the county courthouse
If your property at the river's edge shows any kind of swale or evidence of an old channel, go to your county courthouse and ask for the Recorder of Deeds office. Ask for help in searching for mill rights--and whether or not your property ever had mill rights assigned, or was subdivided from property that had mill rights. If the answer is yes, you should ask your county bar association for a referral to an attorney with experience in real estate law--what you're looking to do is assert that you want to take advantage of mill rights that were deeded with the property years ago.
On the off chance that mill rights were awarded to your property years ago, you may be able to do this. In the more likely event that you do not already have mill rights, you'll have to do some design work, get a registered professional civil engineer, and go through a planning process that will include the state environment regulators, the utility company that owns the hydro dam downstream (most likely PP&L), and probably the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. And unless you have a very long stretch of shoreline, you'll have to get permission from your neighbors to dig a mill race upstream, and a tail race downstream. (This, of course, means that you'll be providing them with free electricity too.)
But what about a floating generator in midstream?
If you're in Pennsylvania, good luck. The Susquehanna is full of boaters and fishermen, and the state is going to regulate you to death with concerns about who might hit it, how you'll secure it during the winter, and whether you have adequate insurance coverage for any possible liability.
In short--I think you'll find that the licensing, permitting, and assorted legal folderol will make the project economically infeasible.
einstein, I would suggest checking with your local city or county office before giving too much thought to your plan.
Considering you are downstream of a hydro-electric dam, it is likely the power company or the county has some kind of easement on the water way. I don't know how kindly they would take to someone building a structure on their property.
Jack Rabbit Submersible Hydro Generator
No Pipes or Dams! Power from any Fast-Running Stream or Tidal Flow!
The Jack Rabbit is a special low-speed alternator mounted in a heavy-duty, oil-filled, cast aluminum housing with triple shaft seals. Orginally designed for towing behind seismic sleds for oil exploration, this marine-duty unit is ideal for home power generation near a reasonably fast-moving stream. In a 9 mph stream (slow jog) the Jack Rabbit produces about 2,400 watt-hours daily. Ina 6 mph stream (brisk walk) it produces over 1,500 watt-hours. The 12.5" propeller requires 13" of water depth. A rock or timber venturi can often be constructed to increase stream speed and power output.
How's my programming? Call 1-800-DEV-NULL
Irrigation canals in Brazil used a venitian blind loop for local power. 20 odd years ago at least.
like little wings on a pulley set up
vertically in the canal.
We create our society every time we interact with each other. What kind of society did you create today?
Um, you might want to ask the good folks up/down river (since you said middle of nowhere, i'm guessing down) at Three Mile Island for a few pointers first.
Good luck. And remember, you can always evacuate a 10-mile radius when things don't go as planned.
you could stop dropping your hat on the power switch...
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I seem to recall a news report back in the Bosnia conflict, showing people who were desperate for electrical power building thier own generators from the scrap around them.
A simple wooden raft tethered to a bridge, secured to that raft the rear axel from a car with paddle wheels attatched to each wheel. The drive shaft was then secured into the back of an old washing machine.
Water turn wheels, wheels turn drive shaft, drive shaft turn motor inside washing machine, produce power.
You'd be better off buying an actuall generator, rather than the far less efficient moter-method, but the rest is easy enough for someone with basic woodworking skills and an old rear-wheel drive car laying around.
There are mainly 3 types of hydro turbines: Kaplan, Francis and Pelton. They are used for different volume/pressure combinations. Your case seems to need a Kaplan turbine but you will have to have at least 1 to 3 meters of water level difference.
Here in Brazil nearly 90% of all the eletric power in the country is hydro generated so we have some courses on hydro generators on undergrad mechanical engineer schools.
If you are serious about doing this I suggest contacting a engineering company or to buy a complete solution from G&E or similar company. It won't come cheap thought. A rule of thumb for hydro power is the bigger the installation, the more efficient it is, so I'm unaware of any off-the-self solutions.
If you are only trying to play with energy generation or does not care about efficiency, you can try to use a medieval-kind water-mill (there should be lots of photos on the net), but attaching a generator to axle. Remember that it would move slow, so you will probably need a gear box to archieve the 60/50Hz speed needed by the AC generator. (I have no idea of how can you keep the speed constant using a similar "low-tech" way thought)
all the men came out and couldn't help but watch ... and then volunteer their help. Heh. Fortunately we had ourselves a monkey that works on bridges, and he decided to climb alot where he needed to. The rest was taken care of with ropes thrown over the tallest branches and strategic cuts to make it fall away from the houses.
:)
OK maybe it was 5 hours... but it was most of the afternoon. And still rather fun
That's dirt cheep around here. My neighbor got quoted US$4000 for a tree less than 50 foot tall, in the Washington, DC area.
He went with the lowest bid (one of his wife's clients), for $2500. I've been helping him cut and split wood almost every weekend since they dropped it, almost two months ago, but he got a citation from the county for having a dead tree or its products on his property not even two weeks after it was dropped. [we're assuming they were citing him for the downed tree, and not mulch, or the wood frame of his house].
Of course, the folks who dropped it let it lay on the ground for the better part of a week before they cut it into segments, and even then, it was too big for us to feed through a splitter.
And so, we've found the most valuable lesson when getting a tree dropped -- when people say 'sure, I'll take some firewood', they're lying.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Can the wheel be encased in eg. a steel rod cage? Something that water can flow through freely but dense enough to screen out the hippos, gators, and floating logs?
He says he's between 2 damns on a slow-moving (almost no-moving?) river? The only way a tidal system would work would be to have an incredibly large tank (impractical) or damn up some cove for the water to flow in and out of. That would also require a large rate of fluctuation in river level to keep the water moving in and out of it and 4-6 feet over the course of even daily wouldn't cut it. From what he describes, it wouldn't seem like the river flows fast enough to keep a paddle-wheel going. Basicly, put a 2x6 plank in the water.. if you can hold it in-place just give that idea up because you'd need some ridiculously large paddle-wheel.
Darrin and Andie (see their Alternative Energy House adn System pages)
While the source isn't hydro, the info on control, etc might be very useful to you, from someone who has actually done it, just just read about doing it.
Check out THIS STORE. Click on the "hydropower" link to the left. They have high flow-low head, low flow-high head, and low volume-low flow hydro-turbines for "home use". I didn't see anyone else post this place but if they have feel free to mod me redundant:P
There are some very interesting possibilities offered by combining tesla bladeless turbines with schauberger vortex turbine designs... the following link offers some ideas for the adventurous:
http://www.frank.germano.com
http://www.homepower.com/
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
Could someone come and claim, that you are stealing the power from the power company(ies) -- or whatever organization(s), that built the two dams?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Here's my suggestion. Feel free to ask for details by emailing [cyrus at 80d dot org].
I have a very rough idea here. Buy or make some sea anchors. Sea anchors are very high drag in the water and are used to limit boat drifting in windy conditions. They are basically a large tapered piece of cloth (like a bucket) with a hole in the bottom. They collect water in a big hole and make it flow through a small hole at the other end. This is just drag in the water. The trick is to make one so that it can be converted between a high-drag and a low-drag state. Pull on one line (at the big opening, via a few connection points) and it's high drag. If you pull the small opening through the middle and release tension on the big opening connection, the material can be forced inside out and will then hopefully offer little resistance. You could also somehow have it move sideways through the water, offering little resistance.
What you then need to do is have one on each side of a pully type gear mechanism. As the water pulls on the high-drag anchor, you get a chance to make some electricity (ratio gear drive to a generator) while you reel the other one in. Switch modes, put your gear drive in "reverse" and have the other pulled out. This will reel in the opposite anchor as you drive your generator. Rinse and repeat.
Another option would be to attach a number of these "underwater sails" to a loop. Configure so they pull on one side and are collapsed on the other. This would give you continuous power.
The anchors should be positioned to be in the highest flow possible. If they float to the top or sink too much you could attach a float or weight (or both) to properly position them under the water.
All that's left is implementation. I'd be glad to help further with design. This could even work in the winter underneath an icy cover.
If not to power a generator, you could perhaps power a water pump that would raise the water to a high enough head that you could power a paddle wheel at high velocity. This could be attached to an alternator. You can find plans for these with home power people. Be sure to raise your voltage as high as possible before transmitting it any distance and use the largest diameter cable you can afford. Vdrop at 12 or 24 volts can be very large (relatively), wasting much of your effort.
Best of luck! Cool project!
I had my leg go numb when struck by a little 3.5cm acorn knocked free of a tree by a pesky little squirrel.
I've seen a little kid nearly knocked unconcious, bleeding, from a scalp would from another acorn.
And don't even get me started as to what acorns do to sheetmetal of your vehicle from that height (not to mention squirrles that sometimes do fall).
It was a hazard... and a very, very painful one at that.
You neglected to factor in the cost of running the grid out to your house. It can easily be $30,000. Many off-grid systems aren't off-grid because people want to save money; they're set up because there's no way to get the grid to them. For example, in the mountains a mile up a road where there's no other houses. You think the power company runs the line all the way up to your house for free? Hah.
Further, a good system balances more than just one source- for example, solar is great until it rains, or night-time. A device like this is perfect for reducing the number of batteries needed to keep the house powered overnight(and big storage batteries are pretty expensive and have to be replaced every few years).
Please help metamoderate.
grew up in the southern tier.
the DEC will eat you alive for what you are thinking.
do a sling pump, water tower, with a "little otto".