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A Public Library's Linux Success Story
Joe Barr writes "What with the spate of professionally PR-generated FUD coming out of Redmond about Linux not being open source, or Windows having a lower TCO, and - believe it or not - even a claim that Windows is more reliable, it's good to read about some real world, grass-root results of successful migrations from Windows to Linux. This story at NewsForge takes a look at the Howard County (Maryland) Public Library's roll-out of over 200 public-use PCs, which used to run on Windows and now run on a custom Linux distribution called Lumix."
I was getting tired of all the Microsoft advertisements - 'bout time we heard something from the 'competition'...
what was the FUD about Linux NOT being open source!? i missed that somewhere.... that sounds like MS desperately grasping at straws
link please?
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.
Using LFS as a starting point, Luis and Mike were able to build a minimal Linux kernel that included only the functionality required by the "kiosk style" machines. They added the Gnome desktop environment, the Mozilla browser, and OpenOffice.org to complete the picture.
If you don't need much more than websurfing and wordprocessing functionality, it doesn't make much sense to keep up with the Joneses running Windows.
Windows is a very capable OS with many features for many tasks. Most of those features, however, are wholly unsuited for a kiosk and totally extraneous.
Linux, OTOH, is able to step in at these places and fill just enough of the hole left by the Windows uninstallation with Windows software clones that the average kiosk user can hardly tell the difference.
I have been pwned because my
Library management is happy because of the money it is saving. Those savings come from reduced administration costs and from hardware savings.
9 7;fp;2;fpid;1
Bout time someone actually tested the fact that the admin costs are cheaper. I agree. But many others dont:
http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;3838698
http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/41485
And much more...
-Imidazole2
Some of us don't even have libraries you insensitive clod!
The article states that some of the PCs upgraded to Linux were running Windows 98. The decision to move to Linux sounds like a major no-brainer to me, even if you remove the Microsoft vs F/OSS debate.
In all the zest and zeal to give away free software through libraries (see previous /. stories), maybe the next step is to now entice libraries themselves with an initiative to install this on all of their machines. For free...
Lumix.org is great
Am I the only one unable to find anything about a Lumix named linux distribution? The only thing I could figure out is that Panasonic makes a camera called "Lumix" that is Linux compatible.
Casual Games/Downloads
Microsoft has just announced software to compete directly with the Howard County Public Library. It's called PowerBrary and seeks to offer more functionality and better security than your common book.
Due out FY07.
Most libraries are stuck with Windows simply because they don't have enough money to move away (it does COST money to get everything working with linux) or because they're required to stay with Microsoft because their systems were donated by Microsoft or one of the related foundations. Lots of libraries are very, very tight on budget and simply can't afford the initial cost of the switchover.
Geoffeg
I've been trying to get Libraries and School Systems to integrate linux for years, and nobody ever listens to me. In my limited experience, the upper-level staff at Schools and Libraries can be so afraid of change, or afraid of "impending doom", that they can't let go of the Windows security blanket. They don't care that Linux can make their systems more reliable and save money -- They are just worried about not having a number to call. It's refreshing to see that this isn't always the case.
I mean, Balmer wouldn't lie to us about the GPL virus, would he?
You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
"Math in a song is good."-Linford
The local public library (somewhere in Mass.) here has an iMac sitting in the front lobby, with the iTunes application running - for people to browse through their library of songs.
I went and asked the librarian(s) about the machine and they said Apple had donated it. Interesting concept - free advertising and people think the company's being Good (TM) by donating to the public library. Not very useful for downloading songs though, given the DRM restrictions on downloads. All the other machines running the Catalog app are Windows though.
Just thought it was interesting enough to post here on /. ... pardon the OTness.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
My university library is a bit sillier. They have brand-spanking-new IBM machines worth several grand, I'm sure, and all they're doing is running kiosk-mode Internet Explorer to their card catalog site (one that is easily bypassed by Win+R, by the way).
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
This site alone still generates to much Anti-Microsoft drivel that's based solely on hate and jealousy. "640K should be enough for everybody" still gets tossed around even though it's proven that Bill Gates never said it. BSOD jokes that are 4 years out of date. Baseless claims that Windows or Office breaks compatibility. Any of these ring a bell?
That's only the tip of the iceberg. You people shouldn't be throwing stones in this glass house.
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
Lumix info is here
This sounds like a perfect fit to me. Given that budgets for libraries the country over are systematically being cut, not having to add the cost of software licensing to a collection of public access PC's is a great boon. Considering that the majority of computer use in the library is limitied to the internet and word processing the availability of suitable open source alternatives for these two activities also fits well. All in all I'd be surprised if we don't hear of more institutions moving to this as money becomes tight.
I know many years ago I donated a collection of 486 and early pentiums to a shop in brooklynn that refurbished them and distributed them to inner city workshops that taught kids how to work on computers. I can only imagine how much of a boon to this program it would have been had linux then been up to the level that it is today.
Sir, there is a dragon outside with an armful of armor. He's inquiring if we offer free refills.
Here in Silicon Valley, Sunnyvale and the new Santa
Clara library are totally on Windows. I havn't yet
been to the new MLK in San Jose -- scary thing is
I see people using public computers and IE to do
online transactions.
Thank goodness I read the rest of that; I thought you were talking about the Microsoft ads on Slashdot.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I live in Howard County, but hadn't heard anything about this before now. It's kindof exciting though -- I'll be taking a trip to the library later today to test drive this setup.
Way to go HCPL!
StrategyTalk.com, PC Game Forums
Using LFS as a starting point, Luis and Mike were able to build a minimal Linux kernel that included only the functionality required by the "kiosk style" machines. They added the Gnome desktop environment, the Mozilla browser, and OpenOffice.org to complete the picture.
Windows is a very capable OS. It has features that are designed to ease the many disparate tasks that different users will expect to handle. It is precisely because of this that Windows is unsuitable for a kiosk-like system. It is simply too powerful.
Linux, OTOH, is entirely suitable. It is free, and does not have built into the kernel all the extra luggage that Windows niceties bring with them. Providing websurfing and wordprocessing capabilities with Linux is pretty damn good and more than one would expect from an OS developed in the OSS manner. Users can use Lumix (the MD system's name) and have barely an inkling that something is amiss, that their Windows systems have been replaced with Linux (with flavor crystals).
Linux triumphs again, not by taking on Windows on the desktop, but by stepping into niches where smaller, less feature-filled operating systems are needed.
I have been pwned because my
it's about time for some good news.
I wonder how this is going to be affected by the government-mandated filters for sex information, science, art, and other governmentally-defined "objectionable material"?
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
The turning point came when Dynix, a major vendor of library software, began to offer a new version of PAC, which enables public access to library catalogues. PAC can be used on any platform with a Web browser. Auger saw it as an opportunity to escape the Windows cash crunch.
What's that? Universally readable data? But, but, what about DRM?
Universally readable AND free. What will those criminal open source people think of next?
Power to the people, and may the Source be with us!
Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
screaming in panic. If enough public libraries realize it's cheaper to run OSS software MS is lost. How long do you think it's going to take before these librarians receive a visit from the local MS sales force and "Free" WindowsXP and Office2003 CD's arriving in their mail for "promotional perposes"?
In Soviet Russia, articles before post read *you*!
I finally got my friend John (a HARDCORE XP nerd btw) to try Linux for his corporate desktop machine. I chose FC1 and KDE 3.2.2. As I sat there with him, he is saying things like WOW! THAT'S SWEET! After I told him the cost of implementation (and let's face it guys, it's never zero) he was aghast. "So we can outfit an entire office for the cost of one Windows server license?"
... if I ever go back to Windows ... "
:-)
As for the "higher cost of training" fud, thats utter bullshit. Within two hours he was just as productive as he was in XP. He's using Kontact (he actually liked it better than evolution), Mozilla, Open Office, etc.
Towards the end of the day, he said, "
On a side-note, he asked me why everything starts with K. I told him about KDE's naming scheme. He called me up a while later and said, "How do I find my ip address? Is it kipconfig?"
bash: rtfm: command not found
What with the spate of professionally PR-generated FUD coming out of Redmond about Linux not being open source, or Windows having a lower TCO, and - believe it or not - even a claim that Windows is more reliable,...
Is there any reason at all to include this statement in the headline of this submission? Does it seriously achieve anything other than reflect negatively on (particularly) the poster and, unfortunately (once again), the entire linux/os community? This submission is interesting in it's own right, it doesn't need to be put up in the fight against the Great Big Evil (TM).
In fact, for all you moderators, it perfectly illustrates the difference between (+1, interesting) and (-1, troll).
"Because it's there." - George Mallory, when asked why he wanted to climb Mt Everest, March 18, 1923 (New York Times)
... which side the librarians will come down on when Micro$oft sics their SCO biatches on the public libraries with demands that SCO be compensated for the libraries use of a Linux-derived OS...
"The Internet is made of cats."
Both stories backed up with loud exclamations of "TAKE THAT, M$ PR PEOPLE!!!" that suggest he spends far more time thinking about them than they do about Linux.
This library adoption is great. There is absolutely no reason to use Windows in this context and it's good to see Linux being used. (I'm curious to hear how the proposed switch to Open Office goes, but it will probably be fine, also.) But after five years of LINUX IS READY FOR THE DESKTOP!!!, the level of spraying seems a bit excessive for these two stories.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
They mentioned that they had trouble locking down the system. I am surprised that they didn't use KDE and its kiosk mode. It allows you to specify any setting in any kde application and lock it down so users can't change it. There is even a GUI tool in beta right now that lets set and lock the settings.
-Benjamin Meyer
Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
This is a perfect example of an application where Linux is ideal (as opposed to "main stream desktop OS"). The puters are used for surfing the net and searching though library catalogs. Both these tasks are performed gracefully by Linux and Linux offers a lot better control for the sys admin to lock down the OS (relative WinXP for example). The only person who need any REAL computer knowledge is the sys admin, the users never touch anything other than the two or three applications they're supposed to use.
Better control for the sys admin, ease of use for the n00bs, increased stability and security, and lower TCO for the library. Could it be any better?
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
I wonder what would happen if a library that was given a couple dozen PC's by Bill Gates turned around and starting running Linux on them........
My roommate and I noticed something the other day at CompUSA. Most people don't have anything against Linux and open source per se, they're just uninformed.
;^)
There was a gentleman about to purchase some software. I forget exactly what, but it was something that most certainly existed for Linux free as in both speech and beer. Scott stopped him and explained very simply about Linux and how he doesn't actually need to pay one red cent for most software. By the end of the conversation, he was all ready to run home and boot a Knoppix CD to try it out. Even his wife was interested.
It wasn't that they were afraid to try something new, it was just that they didn't realize there are alternatives to Windows.
Now, corporations have another problem: the Sunken Cost Fallacy. Managers don't seem to understand that, for most business uses of a computer, there is no real reason to use Windows. They furthermore believe that, since they've already paid for a Windows environment, they'd lose that investment if they switched, and thus continue to pay.
I've found in my professional life that most office workers need very little to do their job. Office Suite, Web Browser, Calendar/Collaboration Software, Email, File Sharing, and maybe a simple Database: that's it.
Granted, there are some applications professionals use that don't currently exist in usable form on Linux, but those users can remain on Windows for the time being. (Or WINE, if they're adventurous). The first step is switching over all the office drones and secretaries who, quite frankly, don't need much software to do their job.
Heh... We're seriously considering standing outside of CompUSA one day and handing out Knoppix CDs and pamphlets. Spread the word. Vive la revolution! Blah blah blah....
You get my point
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
I know that every year there's about a two or three month period when everyone starts to think that 'linux' (gnu/linux) is finally staking a claim on the computing world at large, and then all the fanboys (linux, MS, & Apple) start duking it out in the forums.
And i'm a natural skeptic, i am... but something about this time around feels good. We're hearing about adoption in the public and private sector. Companies are including OSS in their IT road maps. Microsoft is FUD-foaming at the mouth every day, scrambling to patent everything about an OS that's not coming out for probably at least two years.
What does everyone else think? Am i alone in this feeling that the wind has changed?
Obviously there's a lot of work ahead, and i don't think that we've gotten past even the worst of the danger. But the last few months have been... well, positive.
~dijjnn
"The only sites they can't reach are those that require Internet Explorer. And while they can't play Shockwave games..."
Why not? there is a shockwave plugin avilable that works with Mozilla and Konqueror (that I know of). Granted the plugin sucks royal ass and runs about half the speed it would on a comparable Windows box, that is shockwave's fault, however. But it still works.
Also a little useragent tweaking should get most of those "IE required" sites working too.
I am glad to see this. It seems libraries are having enough trouble these days with budget cuts without having to worry about how they are going to pay expensive software licenses.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
No worries about anything with Ninnle!
Most other patrons don't notice the OS change at all, except that they don't crash or get hit with popups/malware/etc, which is an excellent endorsement for Linux in public terminals.
I hope the library has a good remote method for updates though. As much as I dislike Windows, SUS is A Good Thing. Also, they really ought to jump to Firefox when it hits 1.0.2 or so.until average joe can operate it easier,better,more intuitivly than he can a windows/mac OS the road is uphill, MS/Mac spend a barrow load of cash on comp science and UI studies, so instead of moaning from the sidelines, take notes, learn and make sure that Linux has better science behind it (it already has the passion) and if people think Linux really is better they will use it
Well, it migth be coz in San Jose many people speak Spanish. No news that they won't use a Linux distribution that in Spanish sounds like "harlotx" or "bitchx" (in Spanish, "lumis" is a name for bad reputation women).
I'm suprised that they didn't just install the plug ins for flash and java...
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
So many people become inured to the nuisances of MS Software that they don't realize that there's an alternative. Also, they don't realize that those alternatives are as good as Microsoft's or better and
Now, if they could only get that patron to download Firefox at home...
Every library would like to have a couple of Linux Luminaries on their staff. So now these guys go off and form their own company and sell their services back to the library. (Of course even the Google cache of Lumixtech is /.ed)
They should have used ltsp (linux terminal server project) for all this. They seem to like taking the long hard(er) way....
We just had our monthly Systems meeting this morning and one of the topics the director had was how we were going to upgrade/continue our open access public web terminals. Unfortunately we are shackled in with a MS only print solution now...and I have my doubts that we will be allowed to migrate to a Redmond-free solution.
We don't have any share holders to apease (as a group I realize some distros do)
I'd say 90% of IT managers don't care what the ad says so much as their smart underlings
Would you like to pay for it?
English speakers use an IRC client called BitchX though...
"Hello, my name is Luis Salazar and i pronounce "Lumix." loo-mix".
Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind. -- Mark Harrold
They might also want to consider changing the server software. OpenBiblio looks like a pretty nice system. I'm not sure how adequate it would be though considering I have only used library software a few times lately.
I have been asked to help setup a kiosk like structure for a library is a small town of less than 500 people. Most of the computer patrons will be the children and the elderly. It will consist of a few Pentium II machines and an old hplj-4 printer. I was thinking that something like Knoppix would be a good choice but because of the fact that the computers are old, I would like to avoid KDE and Gnome as much as possible. While a few small window managers come with Knoppix (like WM and ICE), they don't load by default and I haven't played around with Knoppix enough to figure out how to set new defaults. Any suggestions on lightweight but effective CD-rom based distributions.
Also, while I know it is a hot topic around here, does anyone know of good software to prevent access to porn sites and what not for linux?
Exactly.
Actually, despite the average poster's contrary views, Microsoft lost the so-called "browser war".
Netscape is destroyed, but Microsoft failed to destroy the Internet (and they did try to do exactly that with their at the time proprietary, incompatible MSN in the early 90's, which even got an icon in the default Windows 95 installation) and now they are scared because computers are connected with TCP/IP, HTTP, HTML, FTP, etc. all invented (or "innovated") in the OSS community, all open, all free and most importantly, all available on non-MS platforms.
Even the most rabid winlots won't be able to claim with a straight face that a browser-only setup is cheaper with Windows. With more and more specialized and in-house software being developed web-based (mostly because of easier maintanance), Microsoft's lock on many desktops has weakened or even disappeared.
There are FANTASTIC Linux drivers for most modern cards, a lot better than Windows for many of them.
>Most libraries are stuck with Windows simply because they don't have enough money to move away (it does COST money to get everything working with linux)
As geoffeg also notes, libraries are extremely crunched for money. They love volunteers for that reason. If a local linux users group worked out a long-term volunteer agreement with their local public library to help with their catalogue and IS systems, I'm sure it could result in switching their systems over to linux. It would take a bit of time and energy to earn trust and to help the librarians see the value, but I'm sure it could be a great way to help your local library and expose more people to linux at the same time.Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
This story really brightened my day especially since we are still in the middle of patching our fscking Windows servers. It's great to see a success story like this. I think I'll forward a link to the major news outlets. You never know who might pick it up.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
http://de.samba.org/samba/docs/man/howto/samba-
Samba-3 is capable of acting as a Backup Domain Controller (BDC) to another Samba Primary Domain Controller (PDC). A Samba-3 PDC can operate with an LDAP Account backend. The LDAP backend can be either a common master LDAP server, or a slave server. The use of a slave LDAP server has the benefit that when the master is down, clients may still be able to log onto the network. This effectively gives Samba a high degree of scalability and is an effective solution for large organizations. If you use an LDAP slave server for a PDC, you will need to ensure the master's continued availability - if the slave finds it's master down at the wrong time, you will have stability and operational problems.
Many LUGs even meet at libraries. I'm sure an arrangement could be made. It would serve as an excellent opportunity for a LUG to train its less clued members and to accomplish something to help their community library at the same time.
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.
I just moved to Howard County about a month ago. I can practically spit on the HCPL Center from my house. I've been meaning to check it out, and free wi-Fi is sealing the deal for me.
And it really is refreshing to see library IT people being able to use Linux to breathe new life into perfectly good old PCs. I stopped off at the Prince George's County Library (also in MD) last night, and their web-based card catalog system is access through IE3 on Win95 Gateway machines, and they're still so slow to be practically unusable.
-- get on Freenet!
Luis and Mike, however, are offering additional assistance for those who require it. They can be reached at the LumixTech Web site.
Ouch. You gotta feel sorry for their mailserver and webserver now that this has been brought to the attention of"The Howard County Public Library burned to the ground today when several computers burst into flames, touching off the conflagration."....
The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain
Each PC runs a script twice a day to check for any configuration changes or patches, so they no longer have to visit each machine individually in order to roll out new functionality or upgrades.
Someone should've shown these guys "VNC.
It's still tedious, but so is logging on to each linux box to patch it. Luckily that won't happen as often.
One of the biggest issues I've had with M$ is with each successive version, the hardware requirements just increasing above and beyond.
I mean really, with the cost to upgrade to XP, plus the cost of hardware upgrades, where the Linux route cost virtually nothing.
If you look closely at a lot of the TCO advertisements and such, they are compared between a mainframe, and a dual-processer Xeon Intel box. Hmmmmm, I wonder where the majority of the TCO is comming from? Hmmmmm. Could it be the HARDWARE? Tell me why they aren't comparing the Linix solution on a dual Xeon Intel box??
Because **IF** the underlying hardware is the same, there is no real comparison for the OS. (Couple thousand vs free) Hmmmmmm. How can one even compare to the other.
It's like putting a leather steering wheel cover on a Kia, and one on a Porsche, and saying that the Kia has the lower TCO. Well, uhhh, DUH!!! The KIA has the lower TCO with out the leather cover also. So does the steering wheel cover really affect the TCO?
These TCO comparisons should be made on the SAME hardware, rather than the vastly different hardware.
---
No matter what happens, act like you meant it to happen!
Oh wait...
It's funny that the Winlots generally use "some anonymous posters" of course without any actual references to prove that the OSS-community is evil, but seem to purposely forget the things Microsoft TOP MANAGEMENT (and NOT some random nameless posters who don't count anyway) said.
If they need volenteers, I'd be willing to help my local library, and I'm sure there are others out there.
If you were an MCP in those categories and was lost using XP, you are either a fucking liar or a useless "paper" MCP.
XP is 2000 with skins, and not too much more.
I didn't see any indication that they were making it clear to the Library patrons that they were using Linux and not Windows. I think that's a massive lost opportunity.
Seriously. It's great that Linux can seamlessly replace Windows in such a high-traffic environment. It would be even greater if there were signs near the kiosks reading something like:
Our kiosks run Linux, the free alternative to Microsoft Windows. We have made this switch to keep costs down as well as reduce virus problems and computer crashes.
Slowly, but surely, the patrons -- or other librarians, or visiting school teachers -- will notice -- it may not matter then, but later...
For example, six months later, a secretary who has been using the library is switched to Linux at work. Now, instead of freaking out when I.T. Guy he's removing Windows from her/his machine, (s)he thinks, "Oh! They run that at the library. I can do that."
Or better yet, perhaps (s)he, having gotten hit with yet another virus, starts telling her supervisor, "Why don't we switch to Linux? It's free and has fewer viruses, and I know how to use it."
Will it happen fast? No. But floods start with a trickle. HoCo is to be commended for making the switch -- now they should toss in a little marketing, too.
BSOD's are nowhere near 4 years out of date. -- last time I booted into windows (XP pro) I got one. I don't really think that 640k comments can qualify as fud. -- I'd say that's more of a comentary on paradigms. Anybody who says windows doesn't break compatibility has never read the documentation for samba, or the book "Implementing CIFS", and have never heard of embrace and extend, AKA copy and break. I'm not saying that linux is completely without FUD -- ceartainly slashdot is rife with misinformed zealots, but telling the truth isn't FUD, it's a dialgue about problems with the system and a way to market.
Can I be a Luddite too?
My brand new Dell laptop running WinXP still suffers from them. Microsoft has not cured the BSOD.
Yes this site is full of MS hate. That's 'cos they have done a lot to make people dislike them. Whereas Linux is made by "some of our own" and seems to have no agenda, and is not just there to suck people's wallets.
Good troll though, I'll wait for the flamebait mods to flood in...
...my Ex-University's library has been using Linux/Mozilla since 2001 (yes, pre-1.0). They are dumb terminals only designed to search the library database and download/print articles though, no other OSS apps.
:)
Oh and if any of you admins there read this: You didn't lock it down well enough, I still managed to read slashdot even though you disabled editing the address bar & most of the copy-paste functionality
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
It is just a name for their custom Linux From Scratch compile.
That isn't what the article says...
Lumix is open source, and if you're interested in getting a CD containing Lumix, just send them a request for it by e-mail.
You can also visit their website. (pretty slow right now...)
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
In the sense that Linux is the result of an open source project, and linux != open source.
Because if that was true, then mozilla = linux.
So it's the same thing as a Ford rep saying "Cars are not Corvettes". Because then, A Ford Focus would be a Corvette.
And no matter how much you pray at night, your Ford Focus won't turn into a corvette.
-asoap
Treat me like a marketing stat, and I'll treat your movie like a series of ones and zeros
I have dual-boot, so I can compare a bit:
Games:
XP: Lots, some older 98 games broken
Linux: Less, some windows games work via Wine, increasing support (Doom3, HL2) expected
Internet:
XP: Firefox/IE
Linux: Firefox
Email:
XP: Thunderbird
Linux: Thunderbird
Media:
XP: Winamp, WMP
Linux: XMMS/MPlayer (DVD's sometimes an issue)
P2P:
XP: KazaaLite, Emule
Linux: Emule
IM:
XP: MSN 6.1, GAIM
Linux: GAIM
Office:
XP: MS/OpenOffice
Linux: OpenOffice
CD Burning:
XP: Nero, lots of others
Linux: MKCD, lots of others
DVD Burning:
XP: Many suck, currently testing ULead DVD Workshop 2 (awesome)
Linux: Experimenting (suggestions welcome)
Those are my regular activities. Some of the other stuff may or may not work in linux
Let's just revel in the fact that Slashdot will pounce on it, and we'll likely get an article later today about it.
Facts? Bah. it's all about anti-"M$" propaganda today.
There's all that, and the most important point. Working with what you HAVE. Why go to all the trouble of specing, and buying a new server (with the associated buocracy)? The clients certainly are powerful enough for their solution.
Also someone else mentioned the KDE kiosk mode, however they need to RTFA, and keep in mind that they were basically rolling their own distro. That's security for the whole OS, not just the desktop.
And yes all the DE's can be locked down if you know what your doing.
Windows is a very capable OS [...] [Linux,] does not have built into the kernel all the extra luggage that Windows niceties bring with them.
You're comparing a whole OS to a single kernel?
Your assessment is wrong. Linux (as an OS) has more features than Windows - there are tons of things that Linux can do that on Windows would require purchasing applications, or simply cannot be done at all.
One of the features that Linux has is the ability to remove stuff you don't need. This is what was done here.
Linux triumphs again, not by taking on Windows on the desktop
Wrong, this is precisely what happened - Linux desktops have replaced Windows desktops, because Windows is unsuitable. It's pretty clear.
I live next to this Library, they do have linux on all the boxes there, not sure about the front desk checkout though. But the search catalogs and all those boxes are loaded with linux.
Im famous! Come to savage library and meet me for an autograph.
This supports what I have been saying for a long time, now. Microsoft has priced themselves out of the market.
And it has nothing to do with the Windows purchase price; it has everything to do with the constant patching, tweaking, fixing, re-installing, etc, etc. that accompanies Windows. They could give Windows away initially and it would still cost too much!
On that note, OpenBiblio seems like it has a fairly large range of basic features (circulation, overdue notices, everything web based), but is lacking in a lot of features that librarians (especially head librarians) need. The statistics produced by OpenBiblio seem to be lacking all but the most basic information, Z 3 of 9 support is missing (aka Z3950 searching), card printing is non-functional, images can't be attached to patrons, users, or items (books, videos, etc), multiple collection libraries (ie a library with multiple branches) can't interconnect, it doesn't currently export (in any format), patron status is harcoded to either Adult or Juvenile (what about for K-12 libraries?), item status seems marginal at best, and finally the report functionalities are just bad.
Without these basic needs that every commercial library automation software provides, how can they expect to actually serve a running library? What about advanced features that college libraries need? There's no interlibrary-loan, checkout polices, SIP2 support (alarm protocol), and the fine structure is too weak to handle complex situations.
Maybe in 5 years OpenBiblio will be caught up to where commercial library automation is now. At least it's not chasing a moving target. The library automation market is very stagnant. New useful features are few and far between. Follet, for example, hasn't updated their software in over a year, they've fired their development team, and are continuing to sell the same product at the same price with plenty of success. Dynix, up until about 2 years ago, was still running all of their client machines on dumb terminals with those green/black screens in text-mode only. And guess what? it worked just fine for everyone.
Good luck OpenBiblio.
><));>
Who would have thought that the Microsoft would be contributing to the state of the art of philosophy.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I live in Howard County. After a semester in college, I spent my winter break living at home. When I went to the library, I noticed that the library was running linux on their terminals. They've done a very good job setting up their computers to suit everyone's needs. The free wifi is a great service, too.
~The log of the limit is equal to the limit of the log.
What I want to know, is how they plan to administer security updates. If it were Debian or Fedora etc, an auto-update system wouldn't be hard to implement. But, being LFS, they could put into place any number of methods for security updates (or, they could omit it -- which is what I would suspect.) It wouldn't look so good if next week we see this story again, except all the 200 machines were hacked and had to be shut down til they can fix it.
It was the cost of upgrading, not the cost of Windows but the cost of upgrading.
RTFA before commenting, it would help. Now where did these moderators come to make this Insightfull?
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Wister285 suggested:
>
> They might also want to consider changing the server software.
> OpenBiblio looks like a pretty nice system.
>
They probably can't, as the software is frequently run by a whole consortium of libraries.
Here in Rhode Island, the group is called CLAN and they share the same centralized Dynix system for catalogs & requests. If my library in Cumberland got a Free Software Bee in their bonnet, they'd need to cut themselves out of that whole system, and deny any ILL requests, inbound and outbound. I just can't see that happening.
Now, I use the CLAN catalog weekly or daily by visiting the www.cumberlandlibrary.org web site and starting a search. It's *exactly* the same interface on an XP Pro system at work, on the crummy WIn 2000 (or whatever) beige boxes in the library proper, or my OS X iMac at home. And when a request comes in to the local branch, it dials my phone number and leaves me a message!
The nice older lady who runs the circulation desk grouses to me about it, oh, once or twice a year when it's down for maintenance -- and yet they can continue checking books in & out locally (they just can't check on requests pending at other librarues).
So you raise a good point, but many libraries aren't islands.
I know what you mean... The administration staff I spoke to never actually dialed any number but mine when something was broken and needed to be fixed. So my argument was, "It doesn't matter if you have a number to call or not, because you only ever call me to fix it". I don't put much faith in the fact that MS products have "Official Vendor" support. But many administration personnel at Schools and Libraries do... Which is why this article is good news.
Getting "Linux triumphs again, ..., by stepping into niches where smaller, less feature-filled operating systems are needed." modded up as insightful was pretty damn good.
Getting "Providing websurfing and wordprocessing capabilities with Linux is pretty damn good and more than one would expect from an OS developed in the OSS manner." modded up was even better.
It's a good thing not too many people bit.
All bow to his Noodliness!! His Noodle Appendage has touched me!
"Take note of Mono now and start writing Mono WinForms apps. When the Mono people get smart-client technology working, you will see a surge in linux based departmental applications."
c h_ internet_apps/">What RIA is
I disagree that MONO is the ONLY solution to that problem. Try typing this into Google, and you'll see that things like FLEX, and the equivalent is were business is headed, for Internet, and Intranets. The difference between MS technologies and FLEX, is that FLEX is here, and MS is somewere down the road. Plus they aren't the only two with "solutions". So while things are still fresh, let's not propagate the Monopoly into another application space.
This,
or this,
or this
The standards argument being made
check out the demo
In Dutch, sorry
http://www.macromedia.com/resources/business/ri
Forgot to add that "Slashdot is part of OSDN" since the story is from NewsForge.
The proper way to account for sunk costs is to ignore them.
Today I have windows, costs paid so far are irrelevant.
To move to Linux will cost $XXX over T years.
To keep up to date with Windows will cost $YYY over T years.
Cost of lost/gained functionality by moving to Linux is $ZZZ over T years
If ((XXX + ZZZ) YYY):
Move to Linux
Else:
Stay with Windows
Welcome to Management Science 121.
Why are you here?
I really love these "axe to grind" kind of posts. You've really captured the feeling and the flavor of a spurned member of a mailing list (I've seen numerous examples of that).
My suggestion: build your own site and post the kind of stories you want and see if anyone shows up. Hell when you're ready you could even advertise your new pro-MS, pro-RIAA, and dare I say it pro-SCO (your comments about their situation were profoundly amusing) site here and see if anyone joins you.
Otherwise, just save your breath....
I'm a programmer for a library automation software provider. The switch to Linux for many libraries just isn't practical. Of course the desktop licenses for Microsoft aren't cheap, but even more expensive are the licenses from the ILS (integrated library system) providers. Of course, most of the viable solutions are Microsoft only and the cost of switching to a Linux or cross platform solution, like the one developed here, is just not feasible. The initial costs of one of these systems can be very expensive; remember that many libraries interact in 'consortia', trading books and data in many ways to reduce cost. To change software vendors is a very expensive project indeed, one that can cost many hundreds of thousands of dollars, plus, of course, the yearly service contracts for support, bugfixes, upgrades.. The company that I work for uses client side Java and C on the server side. Most of our libraries use Windows on the client side, but some use Mac and the use of Linux is on the rise. The server also runs on Linux, but HP and Sun currently see almost all of the action here, but I suspect this will change especially as some of the libraries that have switched to Linux on the server report of their success (cross your fingers) and cost savings. The biggest use of our cross-platform capability to this point has definitely been by our marketing department. I do suspect however that this ability is attractive to those wiley librarians, who are skeptical of most things and especially so of Microsoft. I suspect that as the cost of library software increases the attraction of Linux will also increase. And yes, there are Open Source efforts in the library automation domain (see http://www.ala.org/ala/lita/litapublications/ital/ volume21no1.htm#anchor338989
for an overview) but from what I've seen and read, they've got a long way to go before they are a viable solution for anything other than the simplest library. This is one programmer that won't be spending their time contributing to an open source library system.. 40hrs a week is plenty for me. :)
The state library in Stuttgart Germany also uses Linux. A locked down suse iirc. http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/
One patron asked Dave as he was walking by one day if he had anything to do with the computers. Dave said yes, and the user thanked him for stopping the pop-up ads.
Yeah whatever... most users of that knowledge level get upset if you move their shortcut from the top of the screen to the bottom... you're not honestly going to try and tell me that this guy didn't notice an entire OS being switched on him?
I'm all for linux and getting as many people on it as possible, but to suggest that users won't even notice is FUD of the highest order itself.
BTW, if you hate everything about Slashdot so much, you can simply leave. Easy as that.
"* Linux rules the desktop, when in reality: Windows = 91%; Mac = 4%; Linux = 1%"
I think it will be interesting to compare those numbers to searches related to the Sasser worm once the next 'Top Searches' list comes out.
With Windows, they are locked out of doing this by the EULA and copyright restrictions. They can't build a custom Windows installation to provide potential customers. They would have to provide a high-touch solution of going to each computer and customize the installation. The customization is limitted. For example, they wouldn't be able to remove the LSASS service that leaves the computer vulnerable to attack and provides no end-user benefit for a Kiosk.
Linux is great for capitalism. Customers get a lower cost solution that addresses their specific needs. Entrepenuers can start their own businesses and compete in an open market.
Ironically, the Gates Foundation has been on a dedicated mission to put more computers in libraries. Wouldn't it be great if we could take the machines Bill gave to the community over to Free (no quotes) software?
"Den som vover mister Fodfaeste et Oieblik; den som ikke vover mister Livet." -Soren Kierkegaard
Yawn... more lies from a frightened liar. Try again jackjob. I think your meter ran out of quarters during the fifth stroke in your masturbation session.
Not one thing that you posted in your comment was anywhere close to reality. Just more lies from someone who apparently knows very little about computers.
My library still uses dumb terminals...no really! For the web comptuers though, this makes alot of sense. I just hope that CLUELESS web designers start to design pages that DO NOT exclude ANY browsers that are not IE. Just because I am using Safari or Mozilla doesn't mean that your crappy website won't work on it!
Gorkman
Can't possibly think why, irssi is *far* superior if you want a console client (ssl, ipv6, silc, decent scripting).
now pretty much equal since the features have been in them for a few releases).
I've successfully used both, incidentally also in a public library setting.
The Vaasa Public Library in Finland has a network of ~100 public access computers running Debian GNU/Linux with GNOME 2.2 as the desktop environment. We have been very successful in building a restricted environment. Since the introducing GNU/Linux in 2001 we've never had any significant problems with users being able to fool around with the system.
Just read the article. Why didn't they simply walk around from machine to machine popping in a Knoppix CD? Computer acting up, just reboot it.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Quoting parent...
The Royal Spanish Academy doesn't register this word in its Dictionary of the Spanish Language. (KDE Users: to check this, type rae:lumis on the Konqueror location bar.)
And speaking for myself, a native Spanish speaker from South America, I didn't know about the word before reading this article.
Someone mod parent down, please.
-- Look to the Rose that blows about us--"Lo, Laughing," she says, "into the World I blow..."
Install
OpenOffice.Org
Mozilla
VideoLAN
7-Zip
WinGimp
Open AntiVirus
Then see if the users can use them and get used to them. Then maybe when you do switch to Linux, they will be using the same apps, but under Linux. With maybe the exception of 7-Zip, no Linux port yet?
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
At the 2004 WinHEC, Allchin demonstrated an alpha version of Longhorn that played six high-resolution videos at the same time while playing Quake III in the background.
After reading this post, I was compelled. On Redhat 9 2.4Ghz with 256 MB (yeah yeah, more ram. guess what I DONT NEED IT!), I ran 5 videos, azureus (if you dont know, thats a java prog thats a bitch on resources), xchat, evolution, xmms, gaim.
If you want a screenshot, I'll send you one.
What I'd like to know is what hardware the Longhorn demonstration used
Try ClamAV instead.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Probably a dual-core CPU running at 4GHz, 2 gigs of RAM, a terabyte of storage, a 1 Gbit, built-in, Ethernet-wired port and an 802.11g wireless link, and a graphics processor that runs three times faster than those on the market today. (See here)
There are a number of interesting Library projects using Linux. Beauregard Parish Public Library helped develop its own distro of linux called Whitebox . There's also oss4lib which focuses on Open Source Projects in libraries.
The problem is spyware. Windows users one way or another, sooner or later will execute binaries from the internet and install spyware. If we also count ie bugs and corrupted mpeg streams that overflow RealPlayer and execute code, it's 100% that a public terminat windows machine will be spywared in less than a month. Any password typed on this machine is send to z0b33rzz.haxorz.hu. Every credit card number, e-mail address, every homework assignment.
Do this test. Install windows on a public terminal but over VMware or Qemu. log the packets.
(Or am I spreading misinformation, last time I checked the LFS folks were thinking of creating a script that will do all of that for you.)
This is different to Knoppix which has everything and need about 2.5 GB of space. Some of the PCs might not even have that much.
LFS also lacks (afaik) a package manager, so it can be annoying if you play around; you end up not knowing what you've installed and what files you don't need.
But, Gnome, OpenOffice.org and Mozilla should be all the patrons need. Perhaps the staff can offer a CD-burning-service for the customers who need OpenOffice for use at home. I doubt it's in the budget for the library, so the best way to do it would be to ask the customers to bring their own CD-R's.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
When I tried to check it out, I was told that you couldn't actually check out software, but you could run it on "that one over there" (librarian points at a Gateway P5/60). "I'm not sure you understand," I said, "this is something you'd use instead of Windows, and you have to install it on your own computer to really use it." She looked at me in horror: "we do not condone piracy at this school!"
A second trip a few days later got a slightly better reaction: "Well, we don't have a system for checking out software CDs, but you can copy it to a floppy and take it home if you want. We even sell them if you don't have one with you." I replied that I was going to need, oh, about 500 of them, and could I put the cost on my student loan account?
It's nice to see that at least some people in some libraries are a little more knowledgeable now.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
The last time I looked on www.macromedia.com , there was a Linux Shockwave plugin. But, it was 2 or 3 versions behind the windows plugin. Many of the kid's sites require the latest shockwave plugin (as my daughter found out with her Linux laptop).
j.
Though blocking the port at the firewall can help, it wouldn't have stopped a laptop inside the LAN from spreading Sasser. It's generally better to stop all services that aren't being used. This should be a standard procedure for creating a stable Kiosk with minimal support costs.
Of course, we've all patched our systems so worms like this won't ever be a problem again. :+/
Wow. thats all I can say. thats retarded. Are they even bringing anything new to computing in general to warrant that my MOM have that hardware?
Frequently Utilized Disinformation? Fscked Up Diatribe? Fantastically Understated Danger? Inquiring minds want to know.
-- kortex "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"
"The software savings are negligible because, as Auger points out, it's almost impossible to buy a new PC without getting Windows on it."
WTF? Does that mean they are buying PCs with windows and throwing out the Windows (out the window)? There are ample place to buy computers without windows. To buy one with Windows is a waste of money and worse, blind support of the MS empire. It says they are buying 35 more PCs. That 35 more copies of Windows sold and flushed? I wish I could make money that easily.
Having assembled several white box PCs, it's obviously possible to do that way. I assume there are white box companies out there you can buy from and avoid the Microsoft tax, but I've never checked. Can anyone comment/confirm?
As a Library Systems Manager in the UK who uses Dynix products (specficially Horizon and HIP), I was tempted to run iPac (the Dynix web catalogue) under a non-IE browser on our public access PCs because IE is such a dog to secure - if I could only have a pound for each time someone's right clicked an image and chosen "set as desktop item"! :-D
Sadly the developers at Dynix have fallen into the old trap of designing it specifically for IE (in fact, it should really have a "this site works best with IE" sticker on it) - to get it looking half decent with Mozilla you need to do a huge amount of XSL and CSS hacking. That wouldn't be too bad if the updates to iPac didn't nuke all the changes you'd made!
It's also obvious from the iPac bug list that they've only checked the iPac JavaScript with IE, and for a long time it didn't even work with Opera.
...but you simply do not use LFS for anything other than hobby purposes.
Don't get me wrong: LFS is an awesome project and definitely has its uses, but certainly not here. Compiling everything (lack of a package system), all the hand-tweaking, and the potential maintenance nightmare will bite them later. If/when these guys move on, the next administrators will be a quagmire of this custom-rolled Linux distribution. In all likelihood, that could trigger a move back to Windows.
There's nothing being done here that couldn't have been done with existing distributions (Debian for instance). And worse, this article serves to emphasize how difficult it can be to tweak F/OSS to your needs. Bad move. People who advocat LFS for production environments should be shot.
Join Tor today!
They're not the only ones which begs the question: If EULAs are legal how could the GPL be illegal? Both put limits on how and what the recipient can do with what they've received so where's the difference that would make one illegal and the other not? After all, they're both contracts.
I hate putting the two in the same catagory since the GPL clearly protects the user while EULAs have mostly been used to oppress the user but legally I don't see the difference.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
The article made no mention of streaming audio and video. What do they use for Real Audio and Windows Media format files? I hope they didn't leave users in the lurch.
Every watch Larry King? When's the last time he had a hard news story, and the caller's comments and questions were able to keep your interest? It's never happened for me.
Considering the rose colored glasses thing, well, try posting a critical sounding question to any of the apple.slashdot stories. There's a big group with Rose Colored glasses. I see more balance in the comments than the stories - but I read Slashdot for the commentary. If I want "news" I'll go to NewsForge or BBC.
This may not be a good example of it, but why not embrace FUD? Redmond is very good at it, why not counter FUD with FUD?
A library is running Liunx now! Prepare for the revolution!
I currently live in Howard County, Maryland, and have been a patron of the library system here for over ten years. Several years ago, they replaced all of the vt100 terminals running a text-based catalog with PCs running Windows and a web catalog. Suffice it to say, the first thing I would do when using one of these 'new and improved' machines was to enter the url telnet://howard.howa.lib.md.us/ into Internet Explorer opening a telnet window to the old catalog interface. My reason being that the text interface responded instantly to my queries, whereas the web interface took at least 5-10 seconds to load each graphics-ridden page. The web client also seemed buggy, sporadically not responding to requests. I've continued to use the text interface up until a few months ago when apparently it was taken down for good. I haven't been to the library since the Linux migration, but hopefully it will address many of the slowness and buggyness problems inherent with the Windows web clients (I know that on older machines, Linux definietly feels a lot faster than Windows 98). I will have to stop by the library on the way home tonight and check it out!
There are just some questions that should never be answered.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
It's all of the same versions of the same packages of all of the RedHat ES version 3 packages without the copyright RedHat name, logo or "ShadowMan" insignia (RedHat's protected trademarks).
Also, if you go to RedHat's FTP servers, all of the SRPMs for ES3 are available, you just can't get the compiled versions without a subscription to Enterprise Linux support services.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
Libraries don't work that way.
And what happens when the patron steals the Knoppix CD?
Libraries don't have time for Mickey Mouse systems - it's a huge job running a library. They need a system that works, doesn't need to be fussed with - and especially as the article clearly states, does not need to be patched every time a virus hits.
I'd be more interested if their Linux system was running the library instead of Dynix, but there are open source ILS (Integrated Library Systems) out there.
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Actually it is that simple.
You are correct that the common mistake is wrongly assumed values. But if you guess wrong, any analysis based on that data will also be flawed.
That is why these management decisions should be done properly. It is also one reason why people complain about bad management, they just don't know the numbers going into the equation.
I wonder if any of the 200 computers came from a grant from Bill and Melinda? Gates Foundation
Please someone explain to me what is insightful about this comment...
The parent post is 100% content free. I don't even know what point it's trying to make. Maybe his point is "people that use Linux shouldn't get excited when others get on board and start using Linux too".
Who does it hurt when us Linux folk get excited about seeing our favorite OS being successfully deployed?
Wait, I know the answer... stories like this hurt people that have a religious dedication to Microsoft products. Linux has the potential to hurt Microsoft bad, and it just hurts every time someone successfully implements Linux instead of MS Windows.
Please, quit trying to rain on our parade all you MS people.
but I'm making one.
It has driven me up a tree that simple admin tasks leap around like spastic marmoset as the OS evolves. Some major tasks were easier in NT 3.51
I don't do XP at work (got it at home on the wife's laptop, not on mine, which is RH. Setting the xp thing to 2000 mode was a happy moment), we're resisting 2003. Just ick.
Or perhaps some slashdotters are pro-end user. They really don't like the way M$ has been treating non-technical folks, but they've seen the linux community treating them just as badly. Being against the way that linux is currently doing things does not make one pro-Microsoft.
I've seen a lot of Slashdotters (and Free Software developers in general) yell "Desktop world domination" or "Our software is just as easy to use as Windows" or "Lobby your government to replace Windows with Linux" one second and then the next start beating up someone for daring to criticize (often justifiably) the usability of Linux, telling them "quit whining about what you get for free" or "go code it youself" or "you're engaging in the mental destruction of Free Software developers."
Evil is evil, and I don't give a damn whether its outfit du jour is a Windows logo or a cute penguin.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
Specifically, adversarial marketing.
Linux: Slashdot article linking to story about how a public library switched to Linux
Mac: smarmy, self-satisfied TV ads with the word/sentence/slogan "Switch."
Microsoft: Magazine ads yammering about TCO and pointing to suspicious studies
Draw your own conclusions.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Of course BeOS achieved this parlour trick with considerably less hardware.
This doesn't demonstrate any inherent superiority of Longhorn. It just demonstrates that Moore's law has finally caught up to Microsoft.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Are you sure HL2 will be supported on Linux? I thought it was DX9 only.
"Please tell me who they would call for service/support on Windows 98 or NT in the year 2004? "
God, and heaven. As in "Oh, God! Our server is down again!" Or "Heaven, help us! Outlook's database just screwed up, again!"
" takes a look at the Howard County (Maryland) Public Library's"
I belive you're referring to Haard Canny.
of how to save money by using F/OSS software instead of COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) softare.
I am doing F/OSS research for a company I may form in 2006 when I graduate from college. I hope to offer F/OSS packages and support for companies wanting to move away from COTS software and reduce their costs. I need more research like that artcle to prove my point.
I also need to do more research to prove that F/OSS development can be profitable.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
bicho means "bug" in S.A., but "penis" in Puerto Rico.
sure looks like the truth, no surprise the ms-hater bandwagon kiddies that rule /. are to immature to care...they will mod you down, all you a troll...it is easier then admitting that they are liers, thieves, and spreaders of FUD.
NO i rule in the linux world. But i know my tablet is better i have that new linux .the special hacker version. and that new java 8.0 version C.
For my personal use? Of course. For my friends and interested colleagues? Sure, I'll install it. But for deployment to the public? Mozilla.org says Firefox isn't 1.0-worthy yet, and I respect their QA.
That, my friend, is the smell of Linux.
I personally haven't bothered with IE (firefox=awesome) in a long time, but I seem to remember hearing that you can run IE in linux using either Crossover office or Wine (not sure which it was).
Allowing regular users to run as root is like sticking a driver with a class 5 license in the pilot seat of a 747 - phorm
Pain is merely failure leaving the body