In-Flight Wi-Fi Makes its Debut

mindless4210 writes "German airline Lufthansa will become the first carrier to provide Boeing's Connexion service to its passengers. The service will be unveiled on May 17 on non-stop flights from Munich to Los Angeles, with plans to outfit their entire fleet over the next year. Passengers will be able to purchase access using their credit cards and Wi-Fi enabled laptops. The cost is set at $30 for the entire flight or $10 for 30 minutes."

Comments

Whole new world..

[baudilus]

mid-air LAN party!!

Re:Whole new world..

[Otto]

I really don't want people yelling out "Look out for the rocket!" during my flights, personally.

Re:Whole new world..

[Anonymous Coward]

..mile high LAN party ;)

Re:Whole new world..

[frenetic3]

Anyone know what the latency (ping times) would be on the Connexion service? Would it be like satellite (hundreds of ms?) (I know parent was referring to the plane's LAN in which latency is negligible, but what about communications to the rest of the world?)

-fren

Re:Whole new world..

[NanoGator]

"mid-air LAN party!!"

Finally! Geeks can join the Mile High club! Too bad it won't have the same significance...

Re:Whole new world..

[baudilus]

from the CBB FAQ (currently /.ed):

What is the Connexion by Boeing service infrastructure?
* Airborne system: airborne antennas, airborne servers, routers, and associated wiring.
* Ground system: network operations center, associated satellite uplink and downlink equipment, and business operation center.
* Space system: leased satellite transponders.

It looks like they do use satellites, but they also seem to have ground NOC's and antennae. They don't say which is used for what, but it's safe to assume that it won't be as fast as my optonline connection :D

Re:Whole new world..

[Anonymous Coward]

It is satellite so I am guessing that it will be just like satellite. I guess the latency would be ever so slightly less since you will be at least 30,000 ft closer to the satellite.

Re:Whole new world..

[Short Circuit]

Surely you're referencing this.

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

mid-air LAN party!!

I'm sure your just joking around to get your +5 funny FP but in all seriousness why would you pay Lufthansa $30 to have a mid-air LAN party? If you wanted to have a LAN party (not a bad idea on a eight hour+ flight -- I'd do it if I had a few friends tagging along with me) and they allow Wi-Fi on the plane then why not setup your own Ad-Hoc network that doesn't cost you anything? Unless you need access to the Internet (which you won't for a LAN Party) why give them the money?

That's a pretty interesting idea too. If they are going to allow you to broadcast in the 2.4Ghz range on the airplane then they can't refuse to let you do this. Could be interesting on those long flights. Now your only problem is how long your battery will last :)

Another (slightly evil) idea would be to have one person buy the Internet access and then share it with the rest of his buddies using a second wireless NIC and the aforementioned ad-hoc network. I wonder if they'd get peeved if you did this? Kinda doubt they'd find out but what's the worst they could do? Boot you off? Something tells me that the crew has better things to do then monitor the Wi-Fi network to make sure you aren't sharing it.

Re:Whole new world..

[Lord Kano]

I really don't want people yelling out "Look out for the rocket!" during my flights, personally.

Someone would get their ass kicked. Remember the "shoe bomber" those passengers stomped his ass. Imagine some poor hapless, socially inept geek getting manhandled by the honestly terrified passengers around him.

LK

Re:Whole new world..

[Lord Kano]

Finally! Geeks can join the Mile High club! Too bad it won't have the same significance...

W00 h00, w3 just a55rap3d j00!

w00t, bitches!

LK

Re:Whole new world..

[Frizzle Fry]

If they are going to allow you to broadcast in the 2.4Ghz range on the airplane then they can't refuse to let you do this

Yes they can.

Re:Whole new world..

[paul248]

LAN parties are much easier on a train. It's common for every seat to have an electrical outlet, and there's a lot more space. I was in a 3-player Starcraft game on a train heading for Chicago a few years ago.

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

Yes they can.

Alright then genius explain to me how they will enforce it? They don't prohibit you from using your laptop if you haven't paid for the Wi-Fi service -- how are they going to know that you have an Ad-Hoc network setup? Are they going to walk around using spectrum analyzers and packet sniffers? Something tells me they have better things to do.

Re:Whole new world..

[paul248]

A NOC on the ground is completely unnecessary. They just have to copy the Internet onto the satellites before launching them.

Re:Whole new world..

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a 128kbit satellite connection, to be upgraded eventually.

Re:Whole new world..

[Frizzle Fry]

Nothing you say has anything to do with what I wrote. I kept my response to three words, hoping that would avoid confusion, but it didn't. It's their airplane and if they want to outlaw wi-fi setups other than theirs, they can easily make that rule. You claimed that they wouldn't refuse to let you setup your own, and I strongly disagree. They will refuse to allow this. None of your discussion of enforcability is relevant to what I said, as I didn't make any claims about how or if they would enforce this rule. I'm pretty sure that setting up your own wi-fi network on a plane would not be allowed, so I don't see why them having their own network would change this.

Re:Whole new world..

[netsharc]

Something tells me that the crew has better things to do then monitor the Wi-Fi network to make sure you aren't sharing it.

LOL, that would be some funny job, network admin for trans-continental flights. Where can I apply? You get to fly to exotic places and meet cute stewardesses. ;-)

Re:Whole new world..

[g-san]

Probably better than a terrestrial link via satellite.

Ground Link w/satellite uplink:
ground->satellite->ground (and back)

This service:
plane->satellite->ground (and back)

Since the plane is already closer to the satellite, your first 'hop' will have a lower delay. Geostationary orbit= 36k meters, cruising altitude=10k meters, so you are 1 third closer = 1/3 less latency. Latency from earth to ground is about 500ms so RTT is at least a second, from the plane you get your RTT down to 834ms, not counting terrestrial network latency.

If you are looking to not get fragged, 834ms is a long time. :)

Re:Whole new world..

[potifar]

Geostationary orbit is about 36,000 km (not 36,000 m...), and as you said cruising altitude is about 1 km, so I would imagine that the difference in latency is hardly worth mentioning.

Re:Whole new world..

[g-doo]

Lufthansa's business class and first class seats have power outlets that you can plug into.

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

They will refuse to allow this. None of your discussion of enforcability is relevant to what I said, as I didn't make any claims about how or if they would enforce this rule. I'm pretty sure that setting up your own wi-fi network on a plane would not be allowed, so I don't see why them having their own network would change this.

I wouldn't mind hearing why they refuse to allow this. I only responded so quickly because you made a one line comment of "Yes they can" without anything to back it up. What reason would they have to _not_ allow you to do this? What would be next? Refusing to allow people sitting next to each other to use a crossover cable or IR-link? What possible reason would they have to do this other then pure greed?

Besides my whole point all along was that you don't need to be associated to their AP to play LAN games. It's not "setting up your own wi-fi network" -- you aren't bringing an AP to the party and plugging it in. I don't see why they would refuse to allow you to do this (obviously the RF isn't a factor if they have Wi-Fi in the first place) or how such a rule could be enforced given that many laptops have internal wi-fi systems and there would be no obvious indication that an ad-hoc network was actually functional.

Re:Whole new world..

[cerberus4696]

Not to be too incredibly nitpicky (but, after all, this is slashdot...), but 30,000 feet = 9,144 meters = 9.144 km. According to this, satellite ping times for a two-way link run about 690-1150ms (call it around a second). So, if the distance to the satellite is now 27,000 km, you're probably going to have some difference, but as you say, probably not enough to matter. Plus, you're probably going to loose whatever small latency advantage you get from the fact that the sat antenna has to reorient itself anytime the aircraft makes a course adjustment.

Re:Whole new world..

[Lanzaa]

Or 1/3 slower sat earth plane

Re:Whole new world..

[cerberus4696]

One reason might be that they want to charge anyone using wireless $30. There's no good reson for airlines that show rent-a-headset movies to disallow passengers to use personal headsets, but I've been on flights that do just that (Although I haven't run into that in a while; airlines seem disinclined to piss off their customer base in this market).

Re:Whole new world..

[Anonymous Coward]

"pure greed" Oh God, here we go, money is the root of all evil... Get a life.

It's their plane, they get to say what is and is not allowed...

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

It's their plane, they get to say what is and is not allowed...

Sorry but I think you'll find that society as a whole gets to trump what they (and any private business) can do with "their plane". For example I don't think they'd get away with telling a breastfeeding mother that she couldn't nurse her child.

Not that I'm comparing that to setting up an ad-hoc wi-fi network but if you are going to go and make a blanket statement like "they get to say what is and is not allowed" (while ignoring the point of my post -- did I say money was evil?) then I'm going to call BS on you.

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

One reason might be that they want to charge anyone using wireless $30. There's no good reson for airlines that show rent-a-headset movies to disallow passengers to use personal headsets, but I've been on flights that do just that (Although I haven't run into that in a while; airlines seem disinclined to piss off their customer base in this market).

Airliners seem disinclined to piss off their customer base for good reason -- upstart low-fare airlines are murdering them. I find it highly unlikely that an airline would refuse to let you setup an ad-hoc wireless network just because they have their own. Nor will they (or can they) prohibit you from bringing your own food or drink onboard -- nor can they prohibit you from watching a DVD on your laptop and avoiding the "rent-a-headset" movie charge.

Hell, I've BYOB'd (bring your own booze) on airline flights before and not been called or questioned on it. If they are going to look the other way when you do that do you really think they will give a rats ass if you play some lan-games (as long as you aren't disrupting the other passengers) via ad-hoc wi-fi or ir-link with your buddy in the next row?

Re:Whole new world..

[Frizzle Fry]

Today, they don't let you use electronics during takeoff and landing. What possible reason do they have not to let me use my gameboy or my discman? None. But they don't want to deal with certifying every possible piece of electronics that might or might not be safe because it's not worth the trouble and the risk of being wrong is so high. Similarly, anything involving broadcasting over radio frequencies is going to make them uncomfortable, unless it's the specific application they've set up.

My objection was to the original claim was that they "can't refuse to let you do this", as if this were some innate right that they were incapable of denying you. Which is why I said needed to point out that they of course can deny it if they want.

As for "What possible reason would they have to do this other then pure greed?" Isn't "pure greed" enough? They are providing you a way to have wireless that they have set up and verified is safe. You are trying to get around paying for it in a way that they are not confident is safe. They aren't going to like that.

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

Today, they don't let you use electronics during takeoff and landing. What possible reason do they have not to let me use my gameboy or my discman? None. But they don't want to deal with certifying every possible piece of electronics that might or might not be safe because it's not worth the trouble and the risk of being wrong is so high. Similarly, anything involving broadcasting over radio frequencies is going to make them uncomfortable, unless it's the specific application they've set up.

Understood but you still aren't answering the question of how are they going to know you are doing this. I wasn't suggesting that you hack their internet access -- I was suggesting that you setup a private ad-hoc network to communicate with your buddies on the plane. There is simply no way they are going to know that you are doing this.

As for "What possible reason would they have to do this other then pure greed?" Isn't "pure greed" enough? They are providing you a way to have wireless that they have set up and verified is safe. You are trying to get around paying for it in a way that they are not confident is safe. They aren't going to like that.

What am I trying to get around paying for? They are selling me Internet Access. What if I only want to be able to send ICMP echos to my friend in 6B? It's still a moot point as I maintain that there is no way they could tell that you were doing this. If they start allowing wi-fi on the plane do you really think they will notice if somebody sets up a little ad-hoc network? If they are allowing wi-fi in the first place it's obviously safe.

Re:Whole new world..

[Frizzle Fry]

Understood but you still aren't answering the question of how are they going to know you are doing this.

That's because I never said they are going to know if you do this. I'm not saying the rule is enforcable, just that's one that they can and will make. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were serious penalties for breaking it if you were caught.

Re:Whole new world..

[Shakrai]

That's because I never said they are going to know if you do this. I'm not saying the rule is enforcable, just that's one that they can and will make. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were serious penalties for breaking it if you were caught.

And I question that they will actually make this rule. I suppose time will tell. Would you care to explain just what kind of penalties they could impose? They aren't the Government -- they can't fine you or lock you up. If they ask you to stop and you refuse then you could be charged with interfering with a flight crew (a pretty serious Federal crime in the United States) but that's about it. If by some slim chance in hell they found out what you were doing and asked you to stop and you did then that would be the end of it. They can't impose punishments or fines.

Re:Whole new world..

[Anonymous Coward]

36000-9=35991, not 27000.

Re:Whole new world..

[Frizzle Fry]

I would be very very surprised if it weren't already the case that you as a passenger are prohibitted from doing any sort of unauthorized broadcasting while on a plane by federal law, as well as airline regulations. The airlines will now be setting up this wireless access for passengers, which is nice, but I really doubt that that means that someone is going to change the existing rules for doing your own unapproved broadcasting.

Wink wink

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean that us nerds can now join the "mile high club"?

Re:Wink wink

[F13]

yeah, the "mile high solo club"

Re:Wink wink

[josh3736]

I don't believe your own right hand counts for admission to the mile high club.

Re:Wink wink

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure it does! Just the Solo Aviator Division.

Re:Wink wink

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't be a palm pilot until you solo.

Re:Wink wink

[Anonymous Coward]

Only on /. does this get modded Informative.

Plane 2 Plane

[SirChris]

Any use for plane to plane communications? quickly sending your vital stats, etc. or just as a log of who you have passed.

Re:Plane 2 Plane

[Anonymous Coward]

I really, really, really hope that at no point while flying will my plane be close enough to another plain to do any communication via WiFi.

Re:Plane 2 Plane

[NanoGator]

"Any use for plane to plane communications? quickly sending your vital stats, etc. or just as a log of who you have passed. "

Incoming Message from user NanoGator
___________________________________

If u can recieve dis message, UR 2 FRICKEN CLOSE!!!!!!

Re:Plane 2 Plane

[shnarez]

Brings new meaning to the term P2P...

Re:Plane 2 Plane

[Captain Stoichiometr]

If somebody can find me an Airbus to borrow, I'm up for some wardriving (warflying?) Or I guess I could just sit outside the airport and point my pringles can into the sky.

Interesting...

[Sv-Manowar]

Can't wait till someone acidentally starts controlling the plane with MS Flight simulator
"Pull up!, Pull up!"

Re:Interesting...

[Soko]

Captain: Ummm... Where did you say we were?
Navigator: My instruments read that we're over LAX.
Captain: Then why the FUCK are we over Hawaii?
Navigation Screen: *LOL, d00dz! U R too dumb t00 n0t uze W1|\|d0z3 on ur navsystems!! hanhan, surfs up!!!*

Soko

Re:Interesting...

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

Can't wait till someone acidentally starts controlling the plane with MS Flight simulator

You mean *Crashing* the plane don't you

Either

• Microsoft Flight Simulator has encountered errors and needs to close
• or...
• Microsoft Windows XP has detected a new device (plane) and is unable to find a driver for it

Re:Interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

This reminds me of a bluetooth joke:
Link
I'm sure you get the joke without translation :D

Re:Interesting...

[docbrown42]

Can't wait till someone acidentally starts controlling the plane with MS Flight simulator
You mean *Crashing* the plane don't you

Microsoft Windows XP has detected a new device (plane) and is unable to find a driver for it

That's simple to fix. Just click the "Check airport bar" radio button.
Even XP should be able to find a driver/pilot in there!

feels strange

[Chuck Bucket]

I used to look forward to flights because it gave me time to get lost in a book while sipping some whiskey. now I'll be answering (and dealing with) crap from work? I'm not sure if I'll do this; some times you just can't reach me (this is why all of my phones are off when I'm asleep).

CVS

Re:feels strange

[mirror_dude]

Here here...
I got really annoyed when they started putting sat phones on the planes (fortunitly they sor dam expensive that no one used them).
The article doesnt mention what they use for the down link so you might not have to worry about your working getting in touch with you (IE everyone could be sharring a 128k link which cuts out every so often).

Re:feels strange

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, I agree with your comment if we're discussing shorter flights. On 10-14 hour international flights, however, it really would be nice to have internet access for a portion of the flight.

Re:feels strange

[TopShelf]

Sad days, indeed. Instead of the old, "coffee, tea, or me?" it's become "coffee, tea, or 802.11b?"

It would seem our priorities are getting seriously out of whack.

Re:feels strange

[Anonymous Coward]

Enough to send/receive e-mails. You are not supposed to host a site on the plane that will survive a slashdotting.

Re:feels strange

[Mateito]

I used to look forward to flights because it gave me time to get lost in a book while sipping some whiskey.

First time I ever flew overseas company paid (Sydney, Australia to Denver, CO) I got stuck into the Jack Daniels. By the time I arrived in LA I had 15 of those little plastic bottles (empty) in my the sick bag, and I was starting to feel a bit ordinary. (No. I have no idea why hanging on to them seemed like a good idea).

Going through LA immigration sux at the best of times, but when coming done into a jetlagged hangover, its even worse.

On my connecting flight to Denver, I got stuck next to two Beverly Hills brats who were going on a Skiing holiday in Vale with Mummy and Daddy. We hit turbulance crossing the rockies and...

well. Lets just say they stank pretty bad when they got off the plane.

Note. I don't drink on flights anymore. Honest :)

Re:feels strange

[nettdata]

I'm not sure if I _CAN_ do this... I can't remember the last time I was able to open up my laptop so that I could use it when I last flew coach... there just wasn't the room.

Re:feels strange

[Mycroft_VIII]

I just had a horrible concept hit me, combine the above post with the earlier one about accidently controlling the plane with a Flight simulater prog..... shudders...
Slashdoting an airplane controll system....

Mycroft

Re:feels strange

[Anonymous Coward]

All of your cell phones?

Re:feels strange

[devilspgd]

Either lose weight, or get a smaller laptop.

I'm overweight (Okay, I'm posting on slashdot, that's redundant) and I have a 15.7" display on a Gateway 600XLb...

That's one bigass laptop (desktop replacement), and I managed to watch movines on my last couple flights.

That being said, I don't think I could game without more elbow room.

Re:feels strange

[nettdata]

Size (of me or the laptop) has nothing to do with it... it's the lack of space between the seats on the flights.

It was less than 8 inches between my nose and the seat in front of me on my last flight (2 weeks ago from Vancouver, BC to New Orleans, on Northwest).

The flights these days are such cattle runs that there's not much room for a book, never mind a laptop.

But in the end, it comes down to the airline and the run.

On my trip back, for instance, they bumped me up to first class, and believe me, there was PLENTY of room to watch DVD's on my 15" PowerBook.

Re:feels strange

[devilspgd]

Maybe I've just lucked out, but I fly from Calgary to Texas and back again a few times a year, and I've always had room to open my laptop up, get some work done, watch a movie, whatever.

Truthfully the edge of the laptop is resting against me, but that's because I'm fat (No, not big boned, not a glandular problem, not an eating disorder).

Re:feels strange

[Chuck Bucket]

Yeah, if you're going to LA, being tip'd is a good idea.

As for me, I flew Quatas from LA -> Sydney and loved it, I remember downing as much red wine as i could after dinner so we could sleep through the day (that was really the night by AU time!).

Oh, and that BRIDGECLIMB rocked!

CVSDB

How long will it be....

[Anonymous Coward]

...before we start hearing horror stories about sitting next to sketchy guys who are checking out pr0n on the plane?

Re:How long will it be....

[Gr33nNight]

You dont need the internet to check put porn on a website. Why do you think people have 6 120-gig hard drives on their PC? Not that I am saying I have 6 120-gig hard drives on my computer full of Jenna Jameson DIVX, organized by year or anything.

Re:How long will it be....

[Neil Blender]

...before we start hearing horror stories about sitting next to sketchy guys who are checking out pr0n on the plane?

May 17th.

Re:How long will it be....

[Gr33nNight]

Alright, thats what I get when I dont PREVIEW , but what I meant to say was :

You dont need the internet to check out porn on a laptop, etc etc etc

Re:How long will it be....

[Dark Lord Seth]

Uh, we're talking about airplanes here? Unless you happen to drag around a 1m tower case everywhere you go, along with monitor, keyboard, mouse, generator, fuel for generator and wanking glove, ( We ARE talking about porn after all... ) then 6x 120gb HD is not an option... Maybe a stack of external cases, but they usually still require external adapters...

Or you could get 6x 2,5 inch casings which can run on USB power. Granted, it will burn a hole in your laptop battery and wallet at the same time. This is clearly a no-win situation... :(

Re:How long will it be....

[dindi]

wohhohoo ... maybe I should host XXX and warez on my laptop and receive paypal from the passengers anonymously :)

than I can just hop from plane to plane and travel the world with a 5-DVD server in my backpack and a hotspot :)

but more seriously: $30 bucks for the flight is
outrageous !
I wonder how they give you access. Check my macaddress? give me a password for wep or a proxy gateway ?

Time for web cracking password logging with my handheld linux?

I hate airline companies, on an international flight they stuff you in a sardinia can for $1000... and demand $30 for a connection while they play "family safe 100 yearold crap and even charge for the headphones?" (tip: lufthansa has a special jack that converts to normal audio jack, have one and movies are free :)

1 year ago I found myself sleeping at Amsterdam airoport *ON MY WEDDING SUIT CARRYING BAG* where Martinair left me after I missed their flight because they took off in the middle of a storm and we "emergency landed in an other city".... I had an IPAQ+charger, a creditcard (which did not work at the airport), and $20 ....
sure it's better than recent airline events, but it still sucks for a $800 ticket ..

Re:How long will it be....

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, with any decent airline, the flight attendants WILL ask the porn-reader to stop if they do it in a way that will bother other passengers.

I do know that the CBB/Lufthansa project took all such things into account; Porn is pretty much one of the harmless issues that cropped up. I'd love to tell you some interesting anecdotes but I am basically under an NDA, sorry :-(

Re:How long will it be....

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd love to tell you some interesting anecdotes but I am basically under an NDA, sorry :-(

I call bullshit...

Re:How long will it be....

[nzkbuk]

Well you can get 100GB laptop drives and firewire cases for them. I have a 60GB one for my TiBook.

Agreed the disks are too pricy right now, but more and more and putting power all over the plane to the only problem now comes with all the cables

Re:How long will it be....

[devilspgd]

but more seriously: $30 bucks for the flight is
outrageous

How much do you think the infrastructure costs?

Re:How long will it be....

[dindi]

i think it costs nothing compared to the price of the main infrastructure (plane+crew+airport crew+ coms + airport + security ... etc etc ...)

I suspect they already have communications to earth and satellit stations, so stuffing 2 APs onto a plane, and give some shaped access (I mean limited bw) with the overpriced tickets would probably give a nice reputation to the company ...

Even if the infrastructure is expensive, I do not think they will make it on that $30....

I would not pay that fee unless it is absolutely necessary (meaning, I am forced) ... but maybe i'm just a different person, or a lucky one, who can switch his phone off for a week and disappear to nowhere with a no-net-access-laptop-or-pda ...

cheers .dindi

How long

[Progman3K]

before someone finds a way to hack this Wifi security and EVERYONE flying uses it without cost?

Re:How long

[drinkypoo]

put two wifi cards in your laptop and run an open "ap", and everyone with you (or optionally, everyone) can use the service for the price of just you.

Re:How long

[DNS-and-BIND]

I've never seen a laptop with two expansion slots.

Re:How long

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone please explain this post to me? I never seen Paris but I am pretty sure it exists. If it makes you feel better my Thinkpad has two slots. You might also be surprised to learn that some laptops come with WiFi built in and still have an expansion slot.

I just don't understand why you posted. Is that the new trolling trend? Posting really stupid comments. In that case here is mine - I like Grapes.

Re:How long

[proverbialcow]

Just a little bit before the company discovers they're not making any money, and closes shop.

$30 seems a bit pricey, but you've got to figure that a large chunk of it goes to the airline to install and maintain their equipment and give them exclusive rights to the captive audience, then the cost of the technology itself, and then the bloated profit margins everyone seems to expect from WiFi. What kind of content can I get that justifies $10 per half-hour?

What I'd like to see is the landline ISPs and 3G carriers get into the WiFi game and have competition drive prices and services - "Buy our (DSL|cable|mobile phone) service and get access to our nationwide WiFi network (dirt cheap|at no additional charge)."

Re:How long

[proverbialcow]

And another thing:

How long before someone who never used the service sues Lufthansa over exposing them to microwave radiation?
"I was boiled alive all the way from Munich to LA in their aluminum tube!"

Don't believe me? Fall asleep with a laptop with an 802.11g connection next to you on your bed, and tell me you don't wake up with a headache...

Re:How long

[damiangerous]

I've never seen a laptop without two "expansion slots" (by which I assume you mean PCMCIA/Cardbus bays) and I supported corporate systems for 7 years through 486 Thinkpads to PII Dells Latitudes with some Compaq Armadas and HPs in there too. And while I haven't done it in a while so maybe one bay is the rule now, I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone with any IT experience at all has never seen what was the de facto standard hardware configuration throughout the 90's.

Re:How long

[Pfhor]

I got a built in airport card on my powerbook, and a PC Card expansion slot, so that works.

Or just get a USB wireless adapter, flaky, but hey, it should do its job for what is needed.

Re:How long

[LucidityZero]

If you're in Linux you should be able to clone a second virtual wireless interface. Then just spoof a MAC ont he second, and you're good to go. You can do it on one card. You don't even need to use anything besides the built-in functionality of ifconfig.

Re:How long

[njfuzzy]

You need two wireless cards for that?

Re:How long

[Progman3K]

I believe you totally, proverbialcow.

Also, have you considered what you'd actually be PAYING for?

The bandwidth can't be infinite... So everyone on the plane will be sharing the same outbound channel at what, 3KB ?

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me...

Then again, the airlines used to offer phone service on planes, and that cost some incredible amount too...

Re:How long

[drinkypoo]

The vast majority of laptops have one type III PCMCIA slot, which will also perform as type type II PCMCIA slots. The problem there is that the vast majority of wifi pc cards have a fat antenna module directly connected to the card. Not all of them share this problem, though I don't know how well it would work to have two of those antenna right next to one another.

Re:How long

[Mycroft_VIII]

Then again, the airlines used to offer phone service on planes, and that cost some incredible amount too...

Very expensive. My dad was flying home from visiting relatives in another state his sister (A travel agent so he got good ticket prices at least) with him on till the connectecting flight.
Well he uses the phone to talk this pretty lady he'd met and after a couple of minute my aunt starts waving the little info brochure at hime and says somthing like "that's getting to be an expensive phone call".
My Dad kinda brushes her off saying somthing like "I know" and spends 20+minutes on the air-phone with my aunt giving more and more incredulous looks.
No he figures it's gonna cost alot, like 35-45 dollars. My aunt says somthing like "she must have made some kind of impression". He "replies oh $45 or so isn't That much" that's when she shows him the price/minute in the brochure. It's not good to shock a man that badly when he's already had one heart attack. The bill was over $300.
Moral of the story, when someone who knows how much your spending looks at you like your crazy, find out why!

Mycroft

Re:How long

[another_henry]

I've fallen asleep every night (more or less) for the last six months since I got 802.11g with my laptop right next to my head on my bedside table. I don't wake up with a headache.

Microwaves do not cause biological damage unless you have hundreds of watts of them, and that's just heat.

It's really not physically possible. The frequency is too low to cause any ionising effects, leaving the only possible effect as heating, and I think that you get much more heating from say the hard drive in your laptop than you do from the 1W WiFi.

Re:How long

[Anonymous Coward]

I like Grapes also, but eating too many gives me explosive diarrhea.

Re:How long

[devilspgd]

You haven't seen many, have you?

With the exception of my dad's Compaq, I've never seen a laptop that doesn't have a type 3 PCMCIA slot other then some mini laptops (that are closer to large PDAs in size)

Incidentally, a type 3 slot can be used for 2 type 2 cards.

Beyond that, most laptops these days have Mini-PCI, or wireless onboard.

Worst case, use USB.

Re:How long

[timbck2]

I've never seen a laptop without two "expansion slots" (by which I assume you mean PCMCIA/Cardbus bays)

My iBook has no PC Card slots. Doesn't need 'em.

Connection speed???

[molarmass192]

Doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere and the Boeing site appears to be dead. I'm assuming it's better than dial-up.

Re:Connection speed???

[Anonymous Coward]

Boeing site loads very quickly for me. It is high-speed satellite internet access. It doesn't give specific speed but I am sure it is good enough for surfing purposes.

Re:Connection speed???

[deutschemonte]

The only reference to speed I can find is some sort of "ueber schnell" protocol.

Re:Connection speed???

[Pranjal]

The site mentions that it will be over a broadband connection. But the website also mentions that they will using 802.11b so that's a maximum bandwith of 11Mbps shared among atleast 15-20 users at the very minimum. Factoring the satellite connection lag I'm pretty sure it will go down to a crawl. Just check your emails and get along with it.

Re:Connection speed???

[Anonymous Coward]

How can a post that doesn't actually state anything except that the site is down (which is not true) be modded informative? What exactly is he informing you about?

Re:Connection speed???

[omahajim]

Connexion provides 1 Mbps of upstream and at least 5 Mbps of downstream via satellite

That's a lot better than Starband and Direcway in my experience.

Re:Connection speed???

[molarmass192]

Ok ... so it beats the tar out of dial-up ... well worth 30 bucks for a transatlantic flight!

Re:Connection speed???

[devilspgd]

Do you need to IM or email faster then 128K?

If you're really desperate, download your pron before you leave...

Re:Connection speed???

[devilspgd]

Well, since nobody reads articles on /. the post is informative... It gives me an excuse for not reading the article

Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

$30 bucks for a 9ish hour flight. Not horrible, but a tad bit pricey. Then again, non stop tickets run about $3400, so what's another $30 going to hurt?

Re:Pricey

[krisp]

You still don't have an electrical outlet. Lets hope you have 9 hours of battery life to get your money worth!

Re:Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm assuming that planes that carry this services are also the type of planes that have power outlets. Of course, how sketchy this power may be I don't know.

Re:Pricey

[rekoil]

Actually, most airlines now have low-voltage power ports (much like car cigarette lighter jacks) in the armrests, at least in the First and Business classes. Some have it in coach as well. But you'll need the correct adapter to use them on your laptop...

Re:Pricey

[SteelX]

I'll happily pay $30 rather than be bored for 9 hours.

Re:Pricey

[jo_ham]

I have an iBook - I can get 6 hours, easy (although I'm not sure with the Airport card powered up - I usually turn it off in flight, I mean, what am I going to connect to up there until now?)

An extra battery and I have enough for 10 or so hours easy, even adding for frivolous power waste, like increasing the screen brightness or listening to a CD rather than mp3.

Re:Pricey

[rsborg]

You still don't have an electrical outlet. Lets hope you have 9 hours of battery life to get your money worth!

Someone please mod parent up!
When I was consulting, and traveling frequently (in coach class, company would *not* buy business class tix), I had to either

• Bring extra batteries (heavy, expensive, & wear out)
• Buy an external mega-battery (again, expensive)
• Make all my long flights have stop-overs so that I could *hopefully* find a spare outlet to charge up my laptop on the stop-over

• • All of this while running at the lowest power setting, praying my P4 lap-heater would last until I got my work/game done. Forget anything like compiling or playing even starcraft... stick with editing files, typeing email/doc, and nethack.

    Add wifi access, and all I'd be doing is browsing, not anything meaningful... and wifi lowers your battery faster, too :-(

Re:Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

How about simply sleeping for 9 hours?

Re:Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

How about simply sleeping for 9 hours?

How about 8? Two xanax an hour before the flight, three scotches on the flight. That spells lights out for me.

Re:Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't even have sockets to charge in airports. When I had a long stop over, I had to feel like I was breaking a rule by sitting in a corner, crawling under seats and removing outlet covers to plug my laptop in. Was really amazing.

Re:Pricey

[spagiola]

You still don't have an electrical outlet.

Ah, but you do. In business class, at least, Lufthansa has electric outlets on every seat. And unlike many other airlines, which offer an outlet that only works with special adapters, the outlets on Luftansa just use your regular power cord and plug.

Re:Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why you bring along your cigarette-lighter adapter!

Re:Pricey

[Dausha]

You still don't have an electrical outlet. Lets hope you have 9 hours of battery life to get your money worth!

First, I believe laptops have electrical power available. So, you just need the upgrade. But, in trying to research my answer, I found this:

JUNE 18, 2001 American Airlines Inc., United Air Lines Inc. and Delta Air Lines Inc. last week announced plans to launch broadband airborne Internet service on 1,500 aircraft, with initial service slated to start in the second half of next year. . . and United has a hard time getting its laptop power ports to work."

Connexion by Boeing is owned and operated by a joint venture created by Boeing and its three airline partners, with each company sharing in revenues. Scott declined to detail the terms of the revenue-sharing agreement.

Article

So, this is not an entirely new story. Looks like the 9/11 terrorist attack managed to stall broadband-on-aircraft by a couple of years.

Re:Pricey

[paul248]

I guess that means that a lamp cord is now a terrorist weapon.

Re:Pricey

[Anonymous Coward]

So, this is not an entirely new story. Looks like the 9/11 terrorist attack managed to stall broadband-on-aircraft by a couple of years.

Only as a side-effect of the business downturn resulting from everyone not wanting to fly.

Of course, we were also heading into (already in?) a recession at that point... so demand would've been in the crapper anyway.

The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[linzeal]

Will have a moving target now, this ought to be fun. Maybe we will see cessnas darting in and out of 747 flight paths to get free internet access, right?

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[drinkypoo]

Maybe you could just follow behind them and just below their slipstream off to the sides like geese. You'd get an improvement in efficiency and free WiFi.

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[BillLeeLee]

I was about to say who of you were extreme enough to go warplaning.

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we will see cessnas darting in and out of 747 flight paths to get free internet access, right?

Yeah, except it isn't free, moron.

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[DJStealth]

Actually, I was thinking.. People could turn on Internet Connection Sharing, or NAT or whatever equivalent after purchasing their connection and resell it to others on the flight for cost recovery.

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[Penguinshit]

Speaking as someone who has piloted a Cessna through the slipstream of a heavy (it was a military transport), I can tell you unequivocally that this is a BAD idea...

Do a little research on wake turbulence then come back and talk to me.

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[drinkypoo]

I'm familiar with the idea, and the fact that current avionics and control systems are not up to the job. However, that won't likely be the case forever.

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[Penguinshit]

Without getting into an argument, the wake turbulence coming off of a heavy jet is enough to put a small civilian private craft completely out of control (if not destroy it by snapping the wings due to the sudden and uncontrolled aerobatics). I got super-lucky in that I knew what was going on and was actively trying to avoid the WT while on final. Just the little taste I got was enough to make me pull out and radio for a go-around.

Anyway, your small prop-driven craft couldn't even keep up with a passenger jet (even if said passenger jet were flying just above stall speed and you were at max power).

Re:The guys doing flyovers for wifi hotspots.

[ryanwright]

Only on /. can two people named "Penguinshit" and "drinkypoo" have a meaningful, intelligent conversation about the flight characteristics of aircraft, air turbulance and subsequent problems associated with navigating a larger craft's slipstream.

On the positive side....

[icekillis]

On the positive side... it beats playing solitaire.

Re:On the positive side....

[DR SoB]

Haha, good one..

And what's with the $10 for an hour or $30 for the whole flight? 99% of laptops don't have more then a 2 hour battery life, and I have met maybe 3 people that actually carry spare batteries so what good is the $30??

Re:On the positive side....

[Anonymous Coward]

> 2 hour battery

Well, thanks for *someone* bringing this up. So, they selling *power* with this hookup too or if my batt dies 2 hrs into the 6hr flight it's just too bad for me?

Interference

[RobPiano]

I would love to have wifi on a long flight and $30 isn't completely unreasonable for a flight from Germany to California. This is all fine, but can someone explain to me if we can have wifi on a flight, why can't I have my CD player turned on when the plane first takes off? I've never understood how a CD player could mess with their equipment very much, but I can imagine wifi being a bit of a problem...

Re:Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never understood how a CD player could mess with their equipment very much

Neither does anyone else, friend. Frankly, if someone could crack on a CD player and screw with the instrumentation, I don't want to be on that plane.

Re:Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

Its much easier to explain to the general populus that NO electronics can be used during take off, as opposed to explaining a whole list of items that can't be used.

Re:Interference

[UrgleHoth]

I get around this restriction by bringing aboard my trusty old victrola.

Re:Interference

[nacturation]

Luckily I wasn't holding my coffee cup when I read that one!

mod up!

Re:Interference

[morcheeba]

The CD player will have some sort of CPU, and that CPU is driven by some sort of clock. They are worried that that clock, or some harmonic of it, will interefere with a frequency that the pilots need. Two things to note:

- the cd player isn't an intentional transmitter, but it'll probably leak RF noise (especially if it has a plastic case)
- a lot of the frequencies planes use are older and lower-frequency. AM radios are at 1.6 MHz, FM radios are at 100 MHz -- all exotic frequencies for processors 30 years, but now totally surpassed by normal electronics. Even my 2.4GHz phone uses a lower frequency than my desktop.

Re:Interference

[zakezuke]

Its much easier to explain to the general populus that NO electronics can be used during take off, as opposed to explaining a whole list of items that can't be used.

Except those people who ask how to turn off their digital watch.

Re:Interference

[tipsymonkey]

I was actually on the connexion for a project that I was working on. Even on boeing's own test plane any hardware that was going to be turned on had to be flight certified. If the hardware was flight certified then it could be on while the plane was landing/taking off. It was crazy. Even if you got a machine flight certified if you installed a new piece of software on it then it had to be re-certified.

Re:Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

well, enough BS answers here, so why don't I try to add some more.

I've actually designed In-Flight Entertainment systems.

The main reason is EMI; ElectroMagnetic Interference. Any electronics that are installed on the airplane have to be certified as per DO-160 which includes stringent EMI checks, especially at frequencies that can affect the avionics. It's very similar to the FCC certification, except that the 'sensitive' frequencies are different.

The actual frequencies used by WiFi equipment don't really bother the avionics much.

However, in lab enviroments it was found that CD(ROM) drives tend to emit quite a bit of EMI, especially in the range that MAY affect avionics. I think this is more due to the motors (one for spin, one for laser position) then anything else, but I may be wrong here.

There are quite a few incident reports that suggest that EMI caused by electronics brought on-board by passengers may have been the problem. There's ton's of people denying this, but I've read quite a few of these reports and I'm not so sure that I'd take the risk.

I also read about a test they did with different laptops. They would use the exact same laptop, do an EMI test. Then drop the laptop and do the test again. In some cases, the drop had apparantly severly changed the EMI characteristics (possibly by cracks in the shielding) and some laptops definitely were way over what normally would be considered acceptable.

Anyways, apparently the CD drive can be a significant enough cause of EMI for the airlines to play it safe.

btw. most of the more modern aircraft (or more precisely, avionics) is far less susceptable to induced EMI and it really is not that big of an issue.

As far as all the conspiracy theories go, there are none. These rules are pretty much entirely based on what the FAA mandates. The FAA mandates this because of the numerous incident reports.

Re:Interference

[Dausha]

Its much easier to explain to the general populus that NO electronics can be used during take off, as opposed to explaining a whole list of items that can't be used.

And, that's why major airlines tell you to look at the entire list of approved electronic devices in their airline magazine. They don't waste all their time telling you what you can and can't use. They just tell you a couple of popular items then send you to the magazine.

Re:Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

I just plug the in-flight headphones into the iPod in my pocket. The FAs think I am listening to their announcements.

Re:Interference

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to forget all you know about normal regulations. If there is one industry, one type of transportation where people take things seriously then it's aviation. The laws, regulations and technical specs can only be described as anal. Here's an example. You know those glow stripes on the floor that show you the emergency exit? They used to use little lightbulbs for that. If one of those bulbs was defective, the plane was not allowed to take off.

There's a reason why air travel is so safe.

The reason they ban electronics is quite simple. First of all, they prohibit them just to make sure. Sometimes, some devices may actually have an influence on on-board electronics, but even so it won't be serious (insta-planecrash). They're playing it safe. And take-off and landing are the two "critical" phases of a flight. If something happens during cruise, the plane won't it the ground for a while and might yet be saved. But when you approach the runway and something goes wrong, then your chances of smacking into the ground at a high speed are pretty good.

Now, the wifi for the cbb/lufthansa project underwent extremely rigid testing. The gov't departments responsible for it basically tested the stuff way beyond specification (one quote was, "with enough transmitting power that the wifi would have burned out the CPUs"). And their conclusion was: it's safe.

I do trust that. I wish I could trust all things in this world as much as I can trust airtravel :)

stealing the connection

[jridley]

I can see people who don't want to pay for the connection sniffing someone's traffic, then cloning their MAC address and surfing for free after the guy switches off.

Re:stealing the connection

[Progman3K]

What about proxying?

If you're flying with office mates, one buys service time, and proxies the other(s).

Re:stealing the connection

[morcheeba]

I could see that first guy clicking "share this connection" with his other wireless card.

Oh yeah, that first guy would be me :)

Re:stealing the connection

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be quite simple to limit the bandwidth per subscriber to something reasonable (8k/s). If you're going to use only email and IM, you could still share a connection, but webbrowsing would be a pain unless you agree to take turns.

Re:stealing the connection

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're travelling with friends or colleagues, why would you do that? You're practically begging for (harsher) bandwidth restrictions and higher prices. The service has to be paid for. If almost nobody uses it (because there's always one who shares the connection), it will not be sustained.

Re:stealing the connection

[ChrisN79]

I can see people who don't want to pay for the connection sniffing someone's traffic, then cloning their MAC address and surfing for free after the guy switches off.

Considering that like 1 out of a 1000 people might know how to do that, I am sure Lufthansa is just going to say "more power to you, pal" -- this is really aimed at business travelers... they'll take their chances with the random geek who manages to snag free access.

pr0n!

[joda]

wohee, now i don't need to wait for the hotspots in arrivals ...

Re:pr0n!

[nacturation]

What protocol do they use in arrivals? 802.36DD?

Reasonable...

[baudilus]

It sounds like a reasonable price, especially if it aids productivity, but what I'd really like to know is (1) how much the service costs the airline versus how much they stand to make from consumers and (2) how fast will it be (802.11b? g?)

I didn't expect to be able to find the pricing, but I did expect to find some sort of speed rating, which I haven't been able to locate.

Re:Reasonable...

[eggboard]

Boeing charges from $500,000 to $1,000,000 per plane. They also spend $300M/year to lease transponder space on satellites.

VoIP

[Chairboy]

What are the odds that VoIP ports are either blocked or the latency makes it unusable? The airline industry has put quite a bit of effort into explaining why Airphone is The Only Right Way to talk from a plane.

"Ladies and gentlemen, we must ask that you not use your laptop as a phone over the internet as it... may cause cancer."

Re:VoIP

[Anonymous Coward]

What are the odds that VoIP ports are either blocked or the latency makes it unusable?

19% with a margin of error of +/- 3%.

Re:VoIP

[razmaspaz]

Yeah, but at first, try explaining this to a flight attendant.
Me: No I am not talking on my cell...I am using my laptop to talk to my kids.
Flight Attendant: Uh huh. Sir please take off the handsfree and turn off your cell phone.
Me: No really its my computer!?

Re:VoIP

[lukewarmfusion]

VoIP over port 80. Unless they're monitoring traffic for specific packets (not just blocking ports)... then again, I have a feeling that these planes won't also be equipped with a sysadmin and Packeteer. Then again... that would explain the costs.

Re:VoIP

[dr_dank]

What about bandwidth concerns? I'm sure whatever satellite pipe they're using wouldn't support every user on the plane on Vonage, Kazaa or someother such bandwidth-hogging service.

Re:VoIP

[Anonymous Coward]

It's satellite internet connection with a latency of at least (2*36000km)/(300000km/s)=240ms -- just for the signal to travel the distance. Add to that the delay caused by the satellite uplink equipment, the time packets travel through the internet (including the latency of the other "last mile") and codec latency. Under these circumstances VoIP doesn't look awfully attractive.

Re:VoIP

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can equip a plane with a network (and uplink) which provides internet access to 200 people and operate that network for less than $30 per person and (10 hour) flight, DO IT. Even most earth-bound internet cafes have similar per hour rates.

Re:VoIP

[mjh]

I vote for unusable latency. According to the boeing FAQ the service is provided over satellite internet. Which means unusable latancy for VoIP.

Porn? Warez?

[Golgafrinchan]

Is this going to be a totally free service, or will certain sites be "blocked off"? I expect to see a marked increase in the number of passengers arrested for indecent exposure. Or even better, over the loudspeaker: "Passenger in seat 17E: Keep it in your pants. Thank you."

Re:Porn? Warez?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Please return your laptop and tray to the original non-upright position" ?

New Chat Opening Line

[ZephyrTheBreeze]

Hey honey... guess where I'm connecting from...

How long...

[Kegster]

before someone hacks the fucker so they don't have to pay

And I really hope Boeing have had the good sense to isolate the system from everything remotely critical, else it could out a whole new spin on War-flying

Re:How long...

[Brobock]

Do you think they would be so stupid as to integrate the system into vital components of the plane? There is no reason for the rest of the plane to connect to a wifi network.

Re:How long...

[Kegster]

Agreed, it would be a really bad idea, but when has that ever stopped anyone before?

That said, Boeing definitely aren't stupid, and the systems are, I suspect, unlikely to be able to talk to one another anyway.

That doesn't stop someone in marketting thinking that it would be a super whizbang idea though

Hiring Security techs

[Anonymous Coward]

Just interviewed there about 2 months ago for an IDS system. It was currently put on hold (after the interview process btw), but from what I hear they have an IDS guy leaving or switching roles. If you live in seattle and don't mind working down by boeing field, would be a cool company to work for. Usually they're looking for CISSP / GIAC's. From what they told me, this should be rolled out to a huge consortum of airlines by the end of 2004. Will be interesting to see how this roles out, as another company in Seattle is there largest competitor, who rolled out the service previously.

Flash vs. no Flash

[Big Nothing]

A Flash-free website with information on Boeing Connexion can be found here.

How much does it cost to fly Lufthansa though?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd rather take the charter flights with no internet access thanks.

Re:How much does it cost to fly Lufthansa though?

[Anonymous Coward]

This system isn't designed for you, it's designed for business travellers who do not mind paying a little extra to arrive comfortably and be productive on the way. Why do they pay for business class? Contrary to what you might think, it has nothing (well, little) to do with status. Business travellers will usually leave the train, and go to whatever their job is at their destination. Meetings, whatnot. Business class, with its spacious seats etc lets them arrive much less stressed etc.

Doesn't this interfere with

[Power Everywhere]

their electornics? One is typically told to turn off all music players, laptops, and mobile phones before the flight begins, and only laptops and music players are safe to use in-flight.

Can someone explain to me how Wi-Fi is going to be a safe bet to use throughout the flight?

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe because they built it into the plane and tested it. There is also some doubt has to how mucht these things really do intefere with the navigation of the plane.

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[clichekiller]

No more then then the electromagnetic radiation already pouring through the aircraft. The concern with electronic devices is not that they will cause interference, just that they could. That is why they limit the use of electronic devices specifically during take-off and landing, because those are the most critical moments of any flight. Other devices are limited during the entire flight because of their increased likelihood of causing problems, ie. they use more power.

Also, your cell phone uses considerable more power in sending out and receiving signals then does your average wi-fi card. When was that last time you could get more then five hundred feet from your access point. In reality I'm chained to within a few dozen of feet away. We're talking extremely low power. Additionally they control the service so it will presumeably be disabled during take-off and landings, something you shouldn't be able to verify as your laptop should be stowed at the time. Maybe if you had one of those Belkin Wi-Fi detectors you could see.

Additionally, and this may be presuming much, the FAA and airlines have conducted a significant amount of reasearch into this and are aware, given that Boeing build both the aircraft and sponsors the Wi-Fi, know how the two will interact.

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[thrillseeker]

Can someone explain to me how Wi-Fi is going to be a safe bet to use throughout the flight?

It's a question of certification for the purpose, not whether it's necessarily actually a threat to the aircraft systems or not - it's that in this case the appropriate efforts have been taken to see that use of these particular electronics specifically do not cause problems and that the process is now certified for use in flight.

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[f0urtyfive]

I believe the reason for not allowing mobile phones (is an FCC restriction btw) stems from problems that they had "in the begginining" where several hundred cell towers would "see" your cell phone and begin try to transfer you arround to the one with the best signal... since you were moving so rapidly, and in view of so many towers, it would cause a "DoS" style attack on the towers... Or maybe I'm making that up... not sure ;)

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[mindstrm]

It's also a poeple management issue.
The other agenda is making sure people aren't too distracted during critical moments.. it's the same reason most airlines ask you to raise all window shades during landing.. it's so that in case something happens, you aren't sitting there wearing your walkman, not able to hear anything.

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[kencurry]

Can someone explain to me how Wi-Fi is going to be a safe bet to use throughout the flight?

1) they control the access point, so they could only power it up when they decide it's okay to do so; e.g., avoiding takeoff and landings
2) They spec/own/validate the access point to satisfy their own (and insurers) concerns.

Re:Doesn't this interfere with

[ryanwright]

When was that last time you could get more then five hundred feet from your access point.

When I used a coat hanger, pringles can, home-made drive circuit and powered by a 12v deep cycle marine battery. I can't /wait/ to bring that on the plane! "Haha, you wussies, I've got a clear signal from the plane all the way back here at the security checkpoint! Yeah, I rock, you all.. hey, wait a minute. No no, let me go! GAH! MY LAPTOP! NO NO DON'T PUT THE LATEX GLOVES ON AGAIN!! HEEELLPPP!!!"

pr0n everywhere!

[Anonymous Coward]

The places on this planet that you can't access pr0n are rapidly diminishing. This is among the final steps to the ultimate victory of civilization.

Hmm...

[James A. O. Joyce]

$10 for half an hour...that's about six pounds. Wow! A fifth of a penny per minute! That's about three or four times cheaper than we get normal landline service with BT over here in Britain!

Why are the airlines able to give us ultra-highspeed Internet access thirty thousand feet from any phone lines for next to nothing. and yet the biggest phone company in Europe is unable to get me freakin' 56K for more than two pence a minute?

Re:Hmm...

[Vario]

$10 for 30 minutes -> 33 cents per minute

So you have to pay about 20 pence per minute. I usually get two ads per week from NTL for cable. They offer here in Coventry a 1000 kbit/s line for about 30 pounds per month.

Ripoff

[Space_Soldier]

Common, this is pure ripoff. Most ISPs charge $30 for a month of Internet access service.

Re:Ripoff

[tpconcannon]

And how much does the Telco charge you to make the call to your ISP? Add the amount you are charged for dialing up to your figure there, and the cost goes up considerably.

Re:Ripoff

[Space_Soldier]

I was talking about broadband DSL in United States.

Re:Ripoff

[steveb964]

I would suspect that they are charging $30 for the value aspect, and not primarily for the actual bandwidth usage.

Just my opinion.

Not long..

[baudilus]

They do it now with magazines. At least now you'll be able to hear the sounds too...

fragging the crap out of other passenger

[Anonymous Coward]

And screaming from first class: "I own you!!! lousy coach tourist."

Why you can't listen on takeoff & landing

[k2dbk]

I've never understood how a CD player could mess with their equipment very much...

I once asked why, and was told that they don't want you to not be able to hear any announcement that might be made during those "critical" times.

politically incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Would I still keep watching my nazi and neo-nazi web blogs while on a Lufthansa flight? else I'll wait for virgin to kick their nuts with a better offer as always.

And for the _realy_ hardcore geek

[DrLZRDMN]

WAR flying

Airport panic

[InternationalCow]

I myself am used to editing my talks while on the plane and in flight access to the databases that I use will be of great help. Can't wait to get this. Something else though - I'm wondering about in flight information. You can usually get really up-to-date weather info and so on during the flight. I can imagine a scenario where flyers with wi-fi access will know of bad weather and, possibly, impending disaster before it's being announced by the captain (who usually won't announce impending disaster anyway). We could get a new kind of panic - Airport panic (capitalization is intentional :)).

Re:Airport panic

[Anonymous Coward]

You are the king of redundancy.

"I myself" - How about just I. Is there more than just one "I" that we should know about? Is there an I Bob?

"really up-to-date" - Up-to-date is up-to-date. That is like saying that something is really full or really perfect. Absolutes can't be modified like that.

And what type of disaster are you anticipating that will be available on the internet (aside from weather which you mentioned)? Is there a website - misslesheadingforplanes.com? Or do you speak Arabic and have a secret website that terrorists use?

Good news everyone!

[Paulrothrock]

It's Mac Compatible.PDF, sorry. (Unfortunately, there is a step 3.)

A bit too expensive?

[FunWithKnives]

"The cost is set at $30 for the entire flight or $10 for 30 minutes."

Is it just me, or does 30 bucks for around four or five hours of internet access seem a bit excessive? That's just about what I pay for a month's worth right now...

Don't use that bathroom

[Anonymous Coward]

With the load of flight by p0rn I wouldnt use those airplane bathrooms at all unless you would like to get pregnant.

Being a flight attendant wouldn't get worse :(

Good way for the airlines to make more money

[strictnein]

I see this as a good way for airlines to make more money. Having recently flown Frontier and enjoyed the 22 (or so) channel satellite TV service (that I paid a nominal $5 charge for - and was free until after take off) I welcome many options like this for the airlines. I do admit that $30 is pretty steep for something like this. I'm not a penny pincher by any means, but I would find it tough to cough up the cash for this. I would, however, easily plunk down $15 for this service.

I'm also happy the airlines have been increasingly moving towards charging for inflight meals as it's something I've thought they should have done long again. Instead of everyone, no matter if you're hungry or not, getting plain awful food, those who wish to pay a reasonable price actually get good food.

Re:Good way for the airlines to make more money

[strictnein]

service will be unveiled on May 17 on non-stop flights from Munich to Los Angeles,

Missed the length of the flight. $30 for that flight is a good deal. $10 for 30 minutes on the other hand... that's pretty steep.

Re:Good way for the airlines to make more money

[nacturation]

$30 isn't unreasonable at all, even if you discount the length of the flight. When you think about it, nobody really *needs* to surf the web or check their email in-flight. For those that really do need to due to business reasons, etc. the $30 is simply the cost of doing business. Or if you need to arrange a time to meet with family or arrange transportation, the $10 for 30 minutes option will save everyone tons of time and is certainly worth it as well.

From a consumer perspective, $30 is equal to a full month of high-speed access, and $10 gets you a full month of unlimited dialup. But that doesn't take into account the additional infrastructure necessary -- satellite connection, safe in-flight wireless, equipment maintenance (sure to be higher for a bumpy aircraft), etc. This is very much comparable to many of the tourist-priced internet cafe places. I think it's a bargain!

Re:Good way for the airlines to make more money

[strictnein]

holy fuck my grammar is going way down hill
that's embarassing to read

blah

Re:Good way for the airlines to make more money

[raygundan]

Unless you're at the back of the plane, and they run out of everything except the basket o' candy, as has happened to me on the last two flights I took. I *would* have paid, but all i could get was a basket of potato chips and candy bars. Not sure how to fix that-- it's an inventory issue that can't be solved unless they carry enough of every choice for everybody, which probably isn't feasible.

I'll take the old method any day, where the food sucked unless you were smart enough to call ahead and ask for the vegetarian meal.

Re:Good way for the airlines to make more money

[rizzo420]

$30 is very reasonable considering what you pay for drinks and plane tickets anyways...

$10 for 30 minutes is very steep though. if you're on a 6 hour flight, that would be $120... the only time paying for half an hour is if you're on a short flight (that's under 90 min), but they might not even offer it on those flights. Also, they will probably restrict use during take-off and landing the same way the restrict cd player use. and how does it work with layovers and switching planes?

i guess it all depends on how much you need the internet.

$30?

[sulli]

Who will be the first to set up his laptop as an access point as well as a client, to share it?

Re:$30?

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is it will be some pasty white pear shaped loser like you that doesn't have any friends to share it with anyway.

Or...

[digitalamish]

Someone brings a wireless router of their own, and makes themselves a hub. Brings new meaning to Warflying...

Trip.com

[Roger W Moore]

One nice feature of it will be being able to go to trip.com and find out where you actually are. Of course this is only uselful on planes which don't have the in seat displays where you can select the inflight map anytime you want to.

duty free wi-fi cards

[Anonymous Coward]

not a bad idea unless they only sell netgear.

They also implemented a lesser known feature

[Anonymous Coward]

it's pretty dangerous

Why Not

[Anonymous Coward]

Just so long as the guy is in front of his laptop and not looking out the window.

If he is looking out the window, THEN it is time to start worrying.

Re:Why Not

[Lord Kano]

Just so long as the guy is in front of his laptop and not looking out the window.

Do you plan to run out of the airplaine lavatory with your trousers around your ankles every time someone opens up a can of whoop ass on the n00b in the game?

"Don't mind me, I just had to know if it was a real or CG rocket."

LK

Finally an application for Ad-Hoc networks

[Anonymous Coward]

With $30 the entire flight can surf!!!

new quake taunts

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm on my way to europe to give you a real beating!!!!!

Re:Great

[Trurl's Machine]

I look forward to crapflooding from international airspace.

To begin with, it won't be from international airspace. You will be bound by the law of the respective carrier and the in-flight Internet Service Provider, that will most likely be the CBB - Connexion By Boeing. Obviously, every nerd worth this proud name, must at least consider the idea of hosting a "screw DMCA!" warez server on his laptop traveling across the Atlantic, but actually connecting to the Net via CBB is just like connecting from Seattle, even if your signal goes to this beautiful city through a fairly sophisticated satellite network. So when you are posting from a German plane through a Seattle-based provider, you can't claim freedom from DMCA/Euro-DMCA. But you can crapflood from the sky since quite a long time - Lufthansa already offers in-flight broadband. The only thing that is new this time is the Wi-Fi. Actually, I don't think it's a good idea - Wi-Fi consumes more power than cable ethernet connection, and if you don't fly business/first, you try to save every zilch of energy on your laptop.

Other airlines?

[ASquare]

Anyone know of any definite plans for other airlines to introduce this service? I'd love it on my next flight over the Pacific!

Re:Other airlines?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scandinavian Airlines are doing this on all their intercontinental flights by Q1 2005.
Actually according to this Scandinavian were scheduled to start deploying this in February and thus beating Lufthansa to be the first, but I don't know if that actually happened.

If i downloaded a movie

[Open Council]

whilst the plane is in mid-atlantic, under which country's laws would the RIAA prosecute me ?

Re:If i downloaded a movie

[saderax]

the answer: the RIAA would find no fault with you downloading a movie over international waters...

However, the MPAA would rip you a new one when you touched down at $AIRPORT.

Re:If i downloaded a movie

[Anonymous Coward]

The law of originating country is the law that is valid on board airliners; much like it is on ships.

30$? you've got to be kidding me.

[Dystopias]

it seems to me that an airline should follow the trend of more and more coffee shops/hotels every day who offer their WiFi for FREE to their customers. It should be part of the airfare, which on any flight is ample.

Probably a long while for me

[Anonymous Coward]

Normally the boss flies 1st class, while I'm stuck in coach.

Have you ever used an Airphone

[grahamsz]

I had to make a call on one once, because my flight couldn't land at the destination airpot and I didn't want my fiancee to try driving through the snowstorm to pick me up.

It took about 10 attempts to get it to work, the instructions were inaccurate, when something went wrong it just produced a random tone... when i actually got it to work the call was so noisy I could hardly make out a word she said.

Worst $10 call ever... fortunately that was a lufthansa flight, so next time i'll just email.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[nacturation]

It took about 10 attempts to get it to work, the instructions were inaccurate, when something went wrong it just produced a random tone... when i actually got it to work the call was so noisy I could hardly make out a word she said.

Worst $10 call ever...

Next time that happens, call your credit card company and reverse the charges due to "service not as advertised". Lufthansa (or whoever provides the service) will then have to eat the cost of the call. If more and more people do this, it'll force them to either drop the service (due to chargeback costs) or improve the quality.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[DNS-and-BIND]

then a note goes on your credit card history that you disputed the charge, and you can never order anything online again due to the fact that people tend to do this sort of thing over and over.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell are you talking about? Disputed charges don't go on your credit history. And even if it did when was the last time Amazon did a credit check before letting you buy something. That is the second post by you that just shows how stupid you are. Read this and then follow the instructions:

Life's short and hard like a body building elf
so save the planet and kill yourself.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[nacturation]

then a note goes on your credit card history that you disputed the charge...

Does it? I'm not aware of that. But anyway, the point isn't that you keep using the in-flight phone and disputing the charge, the point is that if you felt you were ripped off because of service that wasn't even close to usable (dropping 10 calls in a row certainly qualifies) then you shouldn't have to pay for such crap. Or, instead of disputing the charge with your bank/credit card company, write to the airline and ask for a refund and explain the circumstances. You'd be surprised what you'd get out of it. Then, until the airline announces improved service, you shouldn't use the phone again unless you're a real glutton for punishment.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[grahamsz]

That's true, but i was very impressed with how Lufthansa handled the situation.

They took off from frankfurt in full knowledge that denver airport was closed, speculating that it'd probably be open again in 9 hours time. Most airlines would just put you up in a hotel and try again the next day.

When it was closed they rerouted us to dallas, paid for a very nice hotel, i asked for wifi access and they provided it free, they provided us with silly amounts of money to buy dinner (so i could give the delivery girl a $20 tip).

OTOH british airways caused a 12 hour delay for me because they had a borked plane. They knew it was broken 4 hours before it even came in, but didn't think to try and locate the tools to fix it until it arrived. It took them 10 hours to do that + 2 hours to fix the plane. For that they gave me a $5 meal voucher, which at denver airport buys you a single big mac, or half a quizno's sub.

They didn't even have the courtesy to reschedule my connecting flights. I bitched and bitched to them but ultimately got a $40 gift certificate for their on flight duty free.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[Anonymous Coward]

Got a surprise for you: Airphone is on the way OUT. Why? Because nobody EVER uses it, the system is a loss. I could tell you what it'll be replaced with, but I operate under NDA. You CAN guess it though.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[nacturation]

Got a surprise for you: Airphone is on the way OUT.

And good riddance.

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[rhekman]

Next time that happens, call your credit card company and reverse the charges due to "service not as advertised". Lufthansa (or whoever provides the service) will then have to eat the cost of the call.

Actually, no it won't. I've worked for a bank in credit card customer service, and small transaction amounts (less than $10-$30) will get written off by the bank and never charged back to the merchant as long as it's not too suspicious.

Also, to dispel another myth in this thread, card declines or referrals are not triggered by dispute history. Declines or referrals are triggered by either account status and limits, or suspicious activity - defined by locality, type of merchant, transaction type, transaction velocity (amount over time) and other factors.

The only thing that disputing the transaction on your credit card does is raise interest rates and fees for the rest of us. There's no substitute for complaining to the merchant or service provider and voicing your opinion with consumer protection groups. The dispute process is there to protect cardholders when they're being screwed by a merchant and they can't get a hold of the company or haven't gotten a resolution. In that regard, credit cards are safer than checks or cash. It is not, however, a substitute for complaining to who provides the service. Just disputing something rarely has the effect you say it does.

Regards,
Reid

Re:Have you ever used an Airphone

[mi]

YMMV. My mother's luggage got stuck in Frankfurt (Lufthansa's main hub) for 3 days. When they delivered it to her home in Boston, on of the bags was 10 pounds lighter! After three ignored phone calls to Lufthansa's office in Boston's airport (Logan) and a two month correspondence, she got a $50 gift certificate for their inflight duty free -- for about $150 worth of stuff stolen by them.

Old news?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't this already covered? Here on Slashdot

Re:Old news?

[genzil]

Ahh, I knew I'd heard this some where before.

I actually read posting my a guy made during the first trail while some where over the Atlantic.

make money while you fly

[Anonymous Coward]

Change your card config to ap and relay traffic, sell the access prior the flight and you'll end your trip with some dollars to spend.

Exceptions

[Brobock]

It's funny how they tell you that you are not allowed to use anything that transmits a radio frequency but they will make an exception when they can profit off of it.

Re:Exceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

Because wifi onboard was rigorously tested during this project. And it's safe. Which they can not say about any other random electronic device you may bring, and hence they ban it. Simple enough?

Re:Exceptions

[nick0909]

Yeah beacuse they make so much money from those navaid and air to air/ground comm transmissions. When the airlines control the device they can get it certified that it will not screw with the onboard navaids and comms. Have you ever tried to put anything on an aircraft? The cost triples because of all the certifications it must go through. I am surprised they would bother to get wifi certified, but I guess they think it will be profitable in the end.

Re:I would pay for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, 9 hour flight? I'd spend the last hour getting the subnet permanently banned from slashdot.

0.2p / min ???

[ed_g2s]

.... which spectacular maths leaves your answer out by the small factor of 100! $10 ~ 5.50, 5.50 / 30mins ~ 18p/min. I think that pretty much answers your question.

Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[fastdecade]

Old skool airlines price for business first - the passengers out back are there to make the numbers.
30 bucks is negligible for business travellers. Especially those who spend half their time in the air.

Everyone here is looking at it as whether it's worth 30 bucks. More to the point, easy net access reduces a major barrier to business travel. Workers are more productive, can respond to stuff as it happens, and managers can be more confident they're actually working rather than catching up on the latest blockbusters.

Less barriers, more flights. That's what the industry desperately needs right now.

Now if only the whole industry could get its act together and reduce the waiting times at either end of the trip ...

Re:Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[pyser]

30 bucks is negligible for business travellers.

Unless your company won't reimburse you for what it considers such "frills". My company won't pay for minibar usage or in-room movies, and they probably won't pay for inflight net access either.

Re:Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[Anonymous Coward]

Sucks for you. My company pays for internet access in the hotel so I am guessing they would pay for it on the plane. Mini-bar is fine as long as you put it against your per-diem and in-room movies I think you get one or two.

Re:Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[fastdecade]

My company won't pay for minibar usage or in-room movies, and they probably won't pay for inflight net access either.

Sucks on both of the first counts, but any company that won't pay for a professional's net access needs to look at its books. When you add up salary, airline ticket, accommodation, living expenses, company overheads, $30 is bloody negligible.

Having said that, I can see most companies saynig the same thing, as most companies need to take a serious look at their books!

Re:Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[ZorinLynx]

Isn't it kind of silly to make the employees work on the plane? I mean, if an employee can catch up on work while on the flight, that's great... but to actually require them to do work is a bit over the top, especially since airplanes aren't really a comfortable working environment. (At least in my opinion)

-Z

Re:Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[ryanwright]

My company won't pay for minibar usage or in-room movies

Funny stuff, my last company wouldn't pay for in-room movies, but if we actually went out to a movie it was covered. Never did figure that one out.

Re:Better Service - Creates Demand For Flying

[fastdecade]

Agree they're not comfortable. And even worse, the air pressure makes your head light, whic hcauses loss of concentration.

For people who spend a lot of time travelling, though, there's not much option.

Two reasons

[Sycraft-fu]

1) They want you paying attention since takeoff and landing are the most likely times for a problem. If there is one, they want you to hear instructions.

2) Just to be extra safe. A properly operating CD player should generate basically no EM field, but why take the chance? Maybe someone has a jacked up unit. I can't think how you'd do it but rather than worry about it and try to make a list of exceptions, they just ban them all and are done with it.

Across the country for $200 you have to be kidding

[razmaspaz]

the airfare, which on any flight is ample

You can cross the country for ~$200. That's cheap by any standard. Seriously. how can you say that airlines are overcharging and should be adding services for free. The idea that you can get from New York to LA in 6 hours. That is madness. Tell that to the pioneers that took 6 months and spent hundreds of dollars (in 1850's money) and they would shit a brick.

If anything you should get free airplane flights with your starbucks. They are the ones overcharging. $2-3 for a cup of coffee. At that price it better come with some pr0n.

please don't tease any arab guy while online

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember those guys have ground-air missiles which can blow up your flight so keep your teasing low.

PPP multilink over Air phones

[Danathar]

Bah...

I'm getting decent speeds by taking three airphones (three seat wide section) and using a uunet dialup account to bind all three together using ppp multilink. I just charge the airtime back to my company!

I tried to use more phones from the passengers seats infront and behind me....but the cords are too short! DAMN!!

Re:PPP multilink over Air phones

[Red Leader.]

Can you give a little more detail how exactly you did this? I'm curious, but not knowlegeable enough about the "uunet dialup acct" and "ppp multilink." Did you have a device with multiple RJ11 connectors?

Re:30$? you've got to be kidding me.

[Brobock]

They most likely have to purchase satellite time from another company.

Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[Angostura]

Given that each seat already has a myriad of cabling going to it, I simply can't see why they've opted for WiFi connectivity - other than as a gimmic.

After all I guess 90% of laptops have Ethernet ports, and what - 40% have Wifi?

So they have a smaller potential audience, plus the issues of RF engineering, interference, security, contention etc.

So gimmic it is, unless anyone has some better ideas.

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[mean pun]

Given that each seat already has a myriad of cabling going to it, I simply can't see why they've opted for WiFi connectivity - other than as a gimmic.

Two good reasons are weight and maintenance. All that extra wiring may be a small fraction of total takeof weight, but why waste it, when you can get paid for air freight or burn less fuel? Also, keeping all those connectors functioning is much harder than keeping a wireless access point running.

Oh, and installing all that wiring would require a lot of expensive maintenance time, whereas installing a wireless access point is fairly simple.

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[mph]

Also, keeping all those connectors functioning is much harder than keeping a wireless access point running.

So your headphone jack never works either, huh?

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[Have Blue]

Those issues are probably miniscule compared to the cost of running Ethernet to every seat in the airplane (this is being retrofitted into existing planes, not brand-new ones).

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[Anonymous Coward]

The trend has been clearly moving towards WiFi. Why would they invest in something that most laptops will not support in the future? Yeah, you'll always be able to get an ethernet card, but more and more laptops are shipping with integrated WiFi which is fine by me since I value my laptop for portability and don't want cables running everywhere. It's hardly a gimmic.

No insult intended, but I'm gonna guess that you hate java and use vi as your primary editor too. There are too many slashdotters who just have this mindset of sticking with the tried and true instead of seeking more efficient approaches.

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Business class gets ethernet jacks and power sockets. I don't remember if economy class gets ethernet jacks; but eco definitely doesn't get power sockets.

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[SuiteSisterMary]

Your headphone jack doesn't have eight slender contact points, idiots trying to plug in their phone cord, lock tabs breaking off, and so on.

Re:Entirely bizarre - why not Ethernet?

[Angostura]

Having read the replies. Yup, you're right, I'm wrong. Should have thought of that stuff.

Some answers

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in support for these guys last year while they were in beta with BA and Lufthansa - very, very cool setup let me tell you.

A few of the questions I can answer, mind you these may not be the most current stats:
- speed is like broadband, but they will not specify the exact bandwidth. feedback from 'consumers' was positive, they said it was like home dsl or cable
- VoIP worked. It was done between passengers on the plan itself as well as to/from the ground. Say goodby to $10/min airtime!
- no ports were blocked during the trial, people were running all kinds of things

As far as hacking and what not: only a handful of people per plane will use this service. It won't be too hard - if they care - for them to walk around a little and see who paid and who didn't.

Lastly, the whole interference issue is, inmho, complete bs. The regulations vary widely on international carriers in terms of what you can use and what you can't. If it were a real safety issue, there would be consensus and a blanket ban on all electronics, or all rf electronics. There isn't. It's fine. Just relax.

Oh, one other thing: this will not be used for any type of data transfer to/from the cockpit for obvious reasons. There are systems in place for that, and Boeing is not looking to use this system to replace those any time in the near future.

To save 30 bucks after spending $900 on tickets?

[tempshill]

I don't think spoofing is a very great concern. The point of Lufthansa installing this is that business customers will fly Lufthansa and not BA. It's not to get thirty bucks.

Analysis

[wowbagger]

OK, to do security one must think like the bad guys. So let us put on our black hats for a moment.

Only fairly well off people will fork over $30 to feed their Internet addiction - most of all the super-type-A types who cannot tell the difference between "being busy" and "being productive".

Most of those people will be running Windows, probably Win98 or WinXP.

So, if I just sit back, wait for them to get their mail, sniff the password they use for email, and then use that password in an attempt to access their computer, I will probably get right in.

Then I can Trojan their machines (for later access to the inside of whatever corporate network they use), download their My Documents folder and desktop, and see what I can dig up.

The beautiful thing about this is that I have every excuse to be close to these people for extended period times, then I get off the plane and go my own way, never to cross the guys path again. /me removes black hat

Gosh, I am SO glad I am not in IT management....

That's cool!

[Lispy]

I work for the company that worked as the technologypartner for Lufthansa (Burda Digital) and it's great to see that this is literally taking off finally. I wasn't directly affected to it but still it makes me proud that this story made it to Slashdot. ;-)

10$ for 30 mins?

[nurb432]

Isn't that a bit high? Seems like its expensive to just check your spam, err email..

Because

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

They can't charge you for your CD player

countermeasure

[morcheeba]

Every webpage they serve will be in a frame, with all the credit card info of the person who paid for the service at the top.

Ok, I made that up, but it would be a good deterence.

Re:countermeasure

[devilspgd]

Sure... At least until you sue them for violating your privacy. I'm not sure about the US, but in Canada and most of Europe we have privacy laws that forbid this (In Canada it applies to telecommunications companies, but I'm fairly confident it would apply to an airline if they offered a telecommunications service)

Worst case, I block port 80, put up a caching proxy with an ad-blocker feature, and block my credit card number.

so much for disabling your wireless

[jzuska]

You may only use your laptop if you can disable your wireless connection.

I call bs, good thing i never turn off my wireless or my cell phone.

Re:so much for disabling your wireless

[Anonymous Coward]

I hope you know what you're doing; you ARE endangering people's lives with that cellular phone as well as violating the law. It could get seriously expensive if they catch you.

I call BS on your post...

Re:Why you can't listen on takeoff & landing

[nacturation]

I once asked why, and was told that they don't want you to not be able to hear any announcement that might be made during those "critical" times.

This makes sense. The airline-provided in-flight headphones can be turned off when broadcasting a message, or even have the message piped through the earphones. No such luck for a personal item blaring in someone's ears.

RF Safety Concerns...

[bobdobbs3]

...Addressed with Corporate Revenue Enhancement Technology (TM)

Glad to see the outrageous hazard cellphones and other RF transmissions pose to airplane avionics is handily mitigated by the application of cash.

Re:RF Safety Concerns...

[skzbass]

More like Corporate Revenue Augmentation Procedures (TM) aka CRAP

BIG problem

[adam613]

Check the Luftansa timetable... there's only one nonstop from MUC to LAX each day, and it's on an Airbus A340.

Re:BIG problem

[halk]

What exactly is the problem? A340 is by far the most comfortable long-haul plane. Quiter cabin than in Boeing planes. No middle seats in business. Only four abreast in economy (vs. five in 747 and 777). And yes, I have tried them all.

Re:BIG problem

[adam613]

I've got nothing whatsoever against the A340. But the wireless technology in question is made by Boeing. That's a problem.

Re:BIG problem

[halk]

Ok, I misunderstood.

Anyway, they are offering the service in both Airbus and Boeing planes. Boeing apparently sells the service for all planes. See http://cms.lufthansa.com/fly/ca/en/inf/0,4969,0-0- 1180835,00.html

Re:BIG problem

[adam613]

Interesting. It isn't like Boeing or Airbus to be so interoperative.

Re:BIG problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Lufthansa uses both types of planes, as do many airlines.

Boeing pretty much didn't get a choice in the matter.

"debut" of something that was there last year?

[the big v]

Last year, my partner took a flight from DC to Frankfurt on Lufthansa. The were testing IP connections then, and he was able to borrow a laptop from the plane's stash to try it out. It was suitable for doing email (yahoo web based email), but not yahoo! chat, because those ports were blocked. we were able to hold a pretty good conversation via email though. Web surfing was passable.

He was told that if he had his own laptop, he could connect to the office VPN and then have unrestricted access anywhere via that connection.

Two months ago when he took the trip again, Lufthansa told him they were no longer offering that service, so he left his laptop at home...

I'm glad to see they're offering it again. Perhaps the next trip (if they offer it on the DC->Frankfurt leg) he'll take his laptop again.

I hardly see this as a "debut" given that he was using it over a year ago.

Re:"debut" of something that was there last year?

[Anonymous Coward]

your partner doesnt happen to then disappear to colgne on these trips to germany, because the timeframe is right for the same trips I took, and that would mean I know them.

If they go to cologne, is it to sing, or conduct at the philharmonie?

LH long-hauls have seat power

[winkydink]

even for the poor slobs in the back

What's the point?

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Wouldn't 100baseT be more appropriate? A single cat5 jack in the backs of the seats, and no worry that if someone switches to 802.11g instead of 802.11b that the plane's navsystem will hiccup.

Wireless is for me sitting out in the backyard and websurfing, or walking around the worksite with my iPaq. It's not that great of a replacement for wires, it's for doing what wires never could. Duh.

Re:What's the point?

[ashot]

you would have to pay for all of the jacks and tearing up the plane to wire it..

E-mail loved ones before you crash

[Anonymous Coward]

If your plane is about to go down, you can email your final wishes to loved ones.

RIAA vs. MPAA

[tepples]

Actually, wouldn't the RIAA care as well because RIAA member labels own copyright in the soundtracks?

Add Voice Over IP...

[cacheMan]

and you've got the cheapest solution yet for calling home from mid-air.

That's why ISPs require secure POP3

[tepples]

So, if I just sit back, wait for them to get their mail, sniff the password they use for email, and then use that password in an attempt to access their computer, I will probably get right in.

Not if they're running POP3 over SSL, which many ISPs require for connections from outside their network.

Re:That's why ISPs require secure POP3

[Mr. McGibby]

I'm just curious to know if your mother knows you're a pedantic idiot?

He was just trying to prove a point.

Great for International Flights

[tarsi210]

I'm just waiting for Qantas (crash free since...well...forever) gets this on their 747-438 Longreach crafts. They're already putting in AC and PC power outlets for business class and progressively moving them backwards to accomodate your myriad of consumer electronics. Since my wife is Australian, when we fly back and forth it'd be great to have Wi-Fi to pass the time. The first 4 hours of the flight are interesting, but somewhere around hour 12 of the 14.5 to 15 hour flight to Sydney, you really think about opening a window for entertainment value.

Cross country I can see just wanting to have some booze and relax, but after that, it'd be nice to do something constructive.

Re:To save 30 bucks after spending $900 on tickets

[Pranjal]

Yeah almost all of the 30 bucks is actually going to boeing if you see boeing's pricing webpage. The airlines are just doing this to provide more services to the business users.

But your comment about BA not offering this is not true, sure lufthanasa is the first one but BA is also in line to start offering these services
It will not much of a differentiator once all the airlines start offering the service as the ISP would be the same in all the cases(Boeing).

MOST. INSIGHTFUL. POST. EVER. -- MOD PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

nuff said.

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[Anonymous Coward]

or a blowjob from the mental pygmy wannabe actress behind the register...

On the cabin speakers is heard....

[defishguy]

On left side of the plane....

Shit Bill... look at the tits on her!

Qantas has had crashes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Qantas (crash free since...well...forever)

Damn Rainman...

Qantas has had crashes. They've never had any *fatalities*, but they have had crashes.

Just a minor pet peeve of mine. :)

These days, no.

[chadjg]

You might stab the pilot with the stylus 200 times.

We're all mad.

+5 Interesting!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bravo, mods. I'm sure this guy was absolutely serious.

Re:+5 Interesting!?

[Danathar]

HAHAHA

It's hilarious that people ACTUALLY thought I'm doing this...

Now it IS feasable....

I suppose you could do 1) Internal modem and then try to use other modems via USB...but how would you power them?....I thought I'd get a "funny" rating!

On a serious note.... I HAVE done PPP multilink using a uunet account at home when I moved into a new house and was waiting on the installation of my cable modem. I bound three phone lines together.

Latency sucked!
Often it took multiple tries because each modem had to be connected to a modem bank that was on the same router. AND I was charged triple...a connect time for each modem connected.

Was it worth it...probably not...was it cool to see it work. Yep!

I can see why they charge so much

[Open Council]

This service is only provided with Boeing aircraft and only from Munich yet Lufhansa's non-stop Munich to LA service is operated by Airbus aircraft.

So obviously they are going to have to fly a Boeing alongside the Airbus (within 300metres). I can't see how they are going to cover the Boeing's costs from 10 people paying $30 each.

Maybe they could use one of those Boeing air-tankers and extend the service range to australia non-stop?

Or maybe the Boeing is a stealth flight flying in the Airbus's radar shadow? Black Boeing being met at LA by black helicopters ??

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[wpiman]

Airlines don't overcharge- far from it. They undercharge and then stick the feds with a multi billion dollar "bailout" bill. Makes Amtrack look like a bargain.

This and the price they pay for fuel is a steal.

Basically, we subsidize the crap out of this industry.

But do they provide AC plug-in...

[JGski]

This sounds like great a geat service (I'd pay for it) but do they provide AC plug-in so I don't have to run off battery (with the inevitable "battery low" warnings only a few hours in)? My new Pentium 4 laptop is such a pig on power that just when I'd get on a roll online, I'd end up needing to shut down already.

Might make a bigger debut with a better name

[t_allardyce]

I know its off topic, but what crack-head marketing team keeps coming up with these stupid names?! Connexion??? WTF?! just call it "In-flight Wi-Fi" its not like anyone knows what connexion means but they are much more likely to know what in-flight wi-fi is and less likely to think your product is a pretentious piece of marketing BS. Oh and PS please stop changing fucking company names! "Warner Village" is not VUE! "Fuck-face Incorporated" is not "Punnani (tm)"

Lufthansa need it

[pixel-fodder]

Flown Lufthansa from SFO to Munich a few times and they really do have the worst in-flight entertainment and the worst economy class seats so this will give you something to do for the 11 hrs or so of restless discomfort. Seems very strange that they are pioneering this when the rest of their service is 4 years behind Virgin and BA.

No second wi-fi card required with tibook

[SimonDorfman.com]

In answer to the long held question, can a TiBook with one Wifi card act as a repeater and relay access to everyone else in the room without them having to pay, the answer it turns out is yes. How do we do this? Well, first turn off the built-in Apache installation on the OSX machine that is online. Edit httpd.conf to load mod_proxy (there are about 20 or so lines to uncomment). Turn Apache back on. Go to network prefs, and find out your assigned IP address. Write it on a piece of paper, and pass it around the room, telling them to set it as their web proxy.

more info in the comments of the page.

Where piece of paper == iChat via rendezvous.

--

Re:No second wi-fi card required with tibook

[Progman3K]

Actually, I wasn't looking for a recipe, I was simply stating the inevitable.

It's at once the whole crux of the problem AND the whole solution:

Access should be available to all, yes, but there ARE legitimate uses for secure communications.

In fact, if the airlines really want to capitalize, they should grant access to all, do it right, complete with cacheing or even mirroring of the most popular "downloads"

The two are not dissociative; increased use of WiFi will certainly make the skies seem "friendlier" to the average traveler,

And for the client with greater security needs, a public/private key session with the airline's router.

It could work this way; the airline gives you their key, you use it with your credit-card and they charge you $ to get the packets out of the plane undecipherable.

Coupled with a computer-locked tight-beam connection to earthstation microwave receivers if you want.

Most people won't want to bother with something like that and risk getting hacked from other machines in the plane and whoever else is in range on whatever un-secure medium they use for the unencrypted WiFi.

It'll be sold like flight-insurance! Just need to change the forms a bit...

The speed is 20Mbps down, 1Mb up, probably

[zmcnulty]

According to this Japanese article reporting on a Mitsubishi R&D event back that I translated back in February, Mitsubishi's dish can download at 20Mbps and 1Mbps.
There's a couple assumptions that go along with my statement though - first of all, this assumes Lufthansa is actually using the Mitsubishi dish for the Connexion service. It also assumes that the actual connection speed is going to be the same as the experimental connection speed, because that's the only figures Mitsubishi provided. Either way, 20Mbps for a plane full of people probably won't be too fast. And I'm sure the pilot won't hesitate to turn it off if there are conditions in which the plane may need power redirected to other systems.

How about giving people power outlets ?

[phoxix]

'nuff said

Sunny Dubey

Re:How about giving people power outlets ?

[phoxix]

I guess I should clarify
Most airlines don't give people power-plugs unless they are in First/Business Class. Secondly, in order to use the plug, you have to get a special adapter for your plug (Targus makes these)

price vs value

[Anonymous Coward]

A fair and reasonable price for this service would be...
FREE!

In-flight Counter-Strike!

[Trejkaz]

Now you can play as a terrorist without alerting the authorities! Just don't stand up in the middle of the flight and shout "WOOT! TERRORISTS WIN!!!"

AC Outlets in Airplanes?

[complexmath]

Since the battery life in laptops is typically far shorter than the average planeflight I have to wonder how far off this is. Battery life is currently the largest obstacle for me when I try to work in transit, and even in power saving mode the laptop won't last through a typical flight. Is such a thing as AC power even feasible?

Re:AC Outlets in Airplanes?

[doktor-hladnjak]

Actually, something like this already exists on some of the aircraft of several airlines (especially in business and first class, although I've seen it in coach). You need some sort of specialized adapter though to make it work.

I wonder if we'll see an Apple promotion...

[rune2]

About their "Airport" wireless accessories... I bet their marketing department would love that..

You can still ignore crap from work

[complexmath]

Since this is time spent out of the office you have no obligation to be available. Same as if you were telecommuting and got a phonecall after business hours--you're free to tell them to call you tomorrow. It's the belief that ease of communications fosters an obligation to be available that causes problems, not the means of communication themselves.

Personally, I'm mostly interested in this because it offers a greater range of entertainment options. You won't miss a single Slashdot story! Play web games. Send stupid "hey I'm in an airplane" email to friends. Play Unreal Tournament online. Listen to a Shoutcast radio station while you write limericks, etc.

Re:You can still ignore crap from work

[devilspgd]

Since this is time spent out of the office you have no obligation to be available. Same as if you were telecommuting and got a phonecall after business hours--you're free to tell them to call you tomorrow.

When I fly on business, I count the hours as hours worked -- At least, the hours actually on the plane.

Last time my girlfriend flew, per company policy her hours started the moment the cab arrived in the front door, and ended when she arrived at the hotel. On the reverse trip, the reverse was true.

Personally, I think it's reasonably fair -- If a company wants to fly me somewhere, I can't use the flight time to my personal benefit, so it's reasonable to get paid for the time. However, I also spent the time working, until I ran out of work -- then I watched a movie.

This could really be great, IF...

[KC7GR]

...And only IF they allow VPN traffic to go through.

Permit me to expand on this. While several libraries, bookstore/coffee places, and even a few hotels have installed WAPs for the benefit of their patrons, and said WAPs work perfectly well for generic web surfing, I've yet to find a single one that allows VPN traffic to pass through.

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. What good is a wireless LAN connection if you can't use it to attach to your home or office LAN via secure tunnel?

When queried about the outright blocking of VPN traffic, the folks at the library gave some nebulous excuse about "security issues" that prevented them from offering the feature, but that they expected to have it available "within a year or so." Considering that, at least for PPTP, all one has to do is open a bidirectional path for port 1723 on the firewall, this excuse seems weak at best.

As for Borders, finding anyone who even knows anything about the WAP beyond "Yes, it's available, how much time would you like to purchase?" is hopeless.

With that in mind: I would be VERY interested in hearing from anyone who happens to take advantage of this feature on a Lufthansa flight AND is able to link to their home LAN via a VPN tunnel through it.

I would also be interested in hearing from those who have tried using VPN through other public WAPs in their area, and what kind of success (or failure) you've had.

Keep the peace(es).

Re:This could really be great, IF...

[Anonymous Coward]

VPNs are supported according to their customer care center

Restrictions?

[jonwil]

Are they going to block or restrict anything (any specific ports?)

Why not hardwired RJ45 connectors?

[MtViewGuy]

I'm actually a little disappointed that the Boeing Connexion system is a Wi-Fi wireless connection.

Given that most modern laptops have RJ45 connectors for hardwired Ethernet connections, I was hoping that the Lufthansa planes will use RJ45 connectors for the Connexion setup--maybe offer a 1-2 feet long Category 5 cable.

Wallet or Battery

[icebike]

The cost is set at $30 for the entire flight or $10 for 30 minutes."

Its hard to know which will expire first, my wallet or my Battery.

How does one open a lap top in those cramped seats anyway?

The guy in front decides to recline and your screen needs replacement. The only defense is to recline first. Ok troups, back to front reclining ONLY. And don't even THINK about getting up to go to the head.

You'r now free to move around the internet.

Re:Wallet or Battery

[Anonymous Coward]

Good grief, just what airline are you flying one? Or are you just that overweight? Put down the fork!

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[rozz]

You can cross the country for ~$200. That's cheap by any standard. Seriously. how can you say that airlines are overcharging and should be adding services for free. The idea that you can get from New York to LA in 6 hours. That is madness. Tell that to the pioneers that took 6 months and spent hundreds of dollars (in 1850's money) and they would shit a brick.

that's a totally irrelevant comparison ... i don't know exact prices, but OS-es probably costed hundreds of thousands of dollars just 40-50 years ago ... now Windows costs 1-200 $ and /. people still bitch about the price the whole day!!!

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[razmaspaz]

That's what I'm saying.

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[razmaspaz]

that's a totally irrelevant comparison

First, I am not sure at all how operating systems are relavant.
Second I am comparing the cost of traveling across the country now to a long time ago. I am pointing out that it got cheaper. Of course it was more expensive to make an OS 50 years ago. Of course it was more expensive to get across the country. My point is that this guy is complaining that not only should they get him across the country for less they should give him all sorts of free crap along with it. Like the seat, the free drink, and the *cough* security *cough*, aren't enough free stuff. Not to mention magazines to read, free pillows and blankets and the occasional cute flight attendant to enjoy along the way. Sheesh!

No thats not enough we need free Internet access on our planes too.

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[razmaspaz]

It took me forever to figure out what the hell you were talking about, but that's funny stuff.

What about the MPAA...

[bingbong]

This would drive them crazy.. you start your "crime" in the EU, then fly over greenland, and canada and then finally the US....

War-chalking the aisle

[Doctor Crocodile]

"The captain has requested that all passengers return to their seats..... sir, please put down the chalk"

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[rozz]

people ALWAYS want more free stuff .. doesn't matter how much they get, they just demand more ... and even more, it looks like the bigger the free-stuff-basket gets, the stronger is the demand for more free-stuff!

and i think my comparison was 100% relevant ... people have OS-es like Windows for 1/1000(or so) from an OS price 40 years ago, people have Linux for free, people have almost EVERY needed piece of software for free, but they still ask for more free software and for lower prices for comercial OS-es ... and the same is valid for ANY product out there ... i chose this OS comparison, because the price reduction scale is quite similar to that of airline tickets(if not bigger) ... and i can't see anything irrelevant about it!

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[razmaspaz]

I think you and I are making the same point here.

Re:Across the country for $200 you have to be kidd

[rozz]

yep .. it's called defending your ideeas :)