Apple Delays New iMac

An anonymous reader writes "Reuters is running a story that Apple has delayed the release of the new iMac until September and has stopped taking orders for the current models."

Comments

Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Must...save...money.

Re:Good

[Junior J. Junior III]

Really, this is good for a lot of people. Sure, they can't get an iMac right now, BUT, this will also save them the agony of "I bought an iMac 2 months ago, and now it's a discontinued piece of obsolescense! Thanks a lot, Steve!" syndrome.

Re:Good

[SilentChris]

For what? An iMac? You're Slashdot: the technological elite. Pity those who have mere iMacs! I myself have a Cray from the 1990s I bought from eBay (sure, it's about as slow as my Pocket PC, but it was featured in Jurassic Park!)

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

"I bought an iMac 2 and a half months ago, and now it's a discontinued piece of obsolescence! Thanks a lot, Steve!"

Re:Good

[DChristensen]

I know this...this is UNIX!

Re:Good

[geoffspear]

Well, a good Cray does make a better piece of furniture than an iMac, but considering the space they take up I think the iMac still wins out as an interior design element.

Re:Good

[Gilmoure]

I bought an iMac 3 days ago and now it's a discontinued piece of obsolescence!? Oh well, it's not mine. I just purchase what the user wants. Still, wouldn't mind having one at home, for the wife to use (for the internet, you sick pervs!).

I like my women like my beer, stored in the cellar until needed.

Re:Good

[KarmaMB84]

I believe the quote was "This is a Unix system! I know this!" :P

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Good market research Paco.

Re:Good

[the gnat]

I was waiting to order one until I could be sure it wasn't going to be immediately obsoleted. Now, however, I have to wait till September, and my lab needs a new computer now. This is seriously bad news for me - we don't need to spend twice as much on a G5 tower that'll only be used for email and word processing. And we'll buy a Windows machine over my dead body.

Re:Good

[jrockway]

eMac... get a freaking eMac

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need to spend thrice as much buying an iMac as a building a Linux box, if you're just going to email and process words...

Re:Good

[Melantha_Bacchae]

Look again. The JP computers were SGIs and Macs. The GUI our little vegetarian hacker used was an SGI demo of a 3D file system interface. You can find it here:

http://www.sgi.com/fun/freeware/3d_navigator.htm l

A G4 iMac gives you the UNIX capability and graphics of an SGI machine (I worked with them around 1990) with the ease of use of a Mac. Plus it is more powerful than your old Cray. JP today could be done on iMacs.

Considering that the SGI machine that I worked with cost as much as a house back then, and Macs were much more expensive, the iMac is a real bargain. You can also pick up the iMac and smack a raptor with it, which you can't do with the other computers used in JP very easily.

A pity we can't get a port of the game "Jurassic Park: Operation Genesis" for the Mac. I really, really love that game! It would be so cool to control my parks on a real iMac.

"Oh yeah: 'Oooh!' 'Aaah!'; that's how it always starts, but then later there's running and um.. screaming."
Ian Malcolm, The Lost World: Jurassic Park

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

New Year 2010, looking at my old iMac from October'04: "Dam you, Steve. You should discontinue iMacs for at least 5 years. Now I could afford and have sex with your new OS XXX model..."

Re:Good

[SecretAsianMan]

It was UNIX. I think that graphical thing you saw in the movie was a little-known file manager for IRIX.

Re:Good

[Benley]

And I believe it was an SGI Crimson (with RealityEngine, of course), and not a Cray.

Re:Good

[atheken]

you're referring to the "value." Cost does not detract from the machine's performance, or features, just from those not willing to pay for it. The value is in all the foward technology, i.e. built in bluetooth, wireless, microphone, firewire 400/800, usb 2.0, DVI... Now, as a note, Macs don't have the "Ghz" game won, but then again, neither does AMD, but they are still capable. All the Giga-whatever talk asside, you need to consider one other thing, it uses another OS, which is optimized for a specific group of machines. I bought a mac about a year ago, it was not "cutting-edge" for more than 3 months, but it's still as capable as the day I bought it, actually, the newer OS runs faster than the last. The machines probably have a slower "turn-over" than x86, you just don't notice because so many vendors are out there releasing the newer, faster stuff everyday. The iMac is great, but they do have to release a new rev every once in awhile to keep the PC switchers and Ghz-geeks happy. I have a lot of friends happily using 3-4 year old macs with OS X... can you do that on x86?

Re:Good

[atheken]

listing of most annoying "computer programs/OSes" from movies will begin now....

1. Anything from "Hackers"

Re:Good

[atheken]

oh, I almost forgot "They're attacking the kernel" Let the hacking using a joystick begin!

Re:Good

[Myuu]

You can also pick up the iMac and smack a raptor with it, which you can't do with the other computers used in JP very easil

Damn that was funny, were are the mod points when I want them...

Re:Good

[lamz]

There are also about a dozen Mac LC 475s scattered around that room.

Re:Good

[antic]

Damn that was funny, were are the mod points when I want them...

Right here: Score -1, Nerd drivel!

;)

Re:Good

[SecretAsianMan]

I Just watched the movie ... and also noticed that all the Macs in the control room were Quadra 700s running A/UX! So indeed, it was all UNIX.

Re:Good

[dbIII]

I myself have a Cray from the 1990s

Must ..

not ...

buy ...

SGI O2 ...

for $110 with no monitor. Must remember when I lusted after that cute little rubbish bin shaped box it was a long time ago, and the SGI Powerchallenge it was connected to was doing all the real work. An original iMac probably has more grunt and is just as cute.

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

There are lots of iMacs left in the supply pipeline. Buy one from somebody other than Apple, it's not hard.

Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Sad Loser]

This may have more to do with clearing old inventory in retail channels ahead of the traditional educational back to school computer bonanza.
A well timed announcement of a really sexy new iMac in August will get everyone excited, without cannibalising sales of the present generation of stock.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Biotech9]

RTFA, or at least think about it, how can they be trying to clear stock by STOPPING SALES. there is no stock, you cannot buy an iMac from Apple.

This is a fuck-up on Apples part, I assume due to the engineering problems of getting a G5 into an iMac case.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

But the new iMacs are announced for September, which is really too late to catch the school sales.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

I assume due to the engineering problems of getting a G5 into an iMac case.

Do us a favor, and don't assume anything...

It would be trivial to get a G5 in an iMac case. About the only challenge I can imagine would be if they are determined to continue with the "fanless" approach, and even that would be workable.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure. A "Legitimate Sales Tactic" that gets shared down 6%.

(Btw, your user name is very well choosen)

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[NeedleSurfer]

imacs have fan now, they have fan since the advent of the firewire iMac...

my 2 unnescessary !

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[martingunnarsson]

The flatpanel iMac isn't fanless. It's got at least one fan.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[builderbob_nz]

A well timed announcement of a really sexy new iMac in August

If this is so, I wonder if Apple have considered the southern hemisphere? The 3rd quarter always seems to be the slowest here in NZ and to not have anything to sell until the new systems come out has got to hurt.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[HRH King Lerxst]

My original Rev. A Bondi Blue iMac has a fan...

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[jimbolaya]

Well, sure, putting a G5 in an iMac case is trivial. Heck, you could put on in a Dell case or a pair of jogging shorts, for that matter. But to actually make the G5 do something without generating an excessive amount of heat, well, that's a bit more than trivial.

In hindsight, I'm sure Apple would have hired you to work out the "trivial" details, in which case the new iMac would already be shipping. But the rest of us, many not versed in designing computer systems and not privy to the new iMac case design, have to give Apple the benefit of the doubt and assuming they ran into some difficulties, either with design, demand forecasting, manufacturing, or some combination of these factors.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be trivial to get a G5 in an iMac case. About the only challenge I can imagine would be if they are determined to continue with the "fanless" approach, and even that would be workable.

Well, for about 5.6 seconds until the G5 warms up and melts the iMac case. :-) I think the trouble they're having is fitting 9 fans into the desklamp iMac base like the tower has. I don't know why people are hounding for the G5 anyway... I'm using a 800MHz G3 iBook and it's plenty fast enough for me doing just about anything. Unless you're using photoshop or crunching numbers, why do you even need a G4?

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

Heck, you could put on in a Dell case or a pair of jogging shorts, for that matter.

Dell case, YES.
Jogging Shorts, NO.

But to actually make the G5 do something without generating an excessive amount of heat, well, that's a bit more than trivial.

First of all, you don't have any control over how much heat the G5 generates. No case layout, heatsinks, fans, can do anything of the sort. It's going to generate as much heat as it's going to generate.

Now then, moving that heat away from the processor, and out of the case is pretty easy. First reason for that is because the G5 generates FAR LESS HEAT than any modern AMD/Intel processor...

So, as long as we have a reasonably well-designed case, it's a trivial matter to select a good sized heatsink, and quiet fan that moves enough air.

I'm sure Apple would have hired you to work out the "trivial" details, in which case the new iMac would already be shipping.

I didn't say they didn't run into some problem... I said it couldn't be related to the fact that their using a G5 processor now... It's really not a hot processor, so anyone who knows the basics of cooling a computer can handle it.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

FFS. They don't have nine fans to cool the CPUs in the PowerMac. They have nine fans to cool the CPUs quietly. They've designed it the way they have so that, under normal operation, the fans will rotate at a fraction of their full speed, meaning that they are that much quieter than normal.

If you look at this PDF file, you'll see that typical power dissipation of the 1.8 GHz G5 is 42 watts. Assuming that's 75% of the maximum, we still end up with a maximum power rating of 56 watts. In comparison, typical power dissipation of an AMD Barton running at 1.8 GHz is around 54 watts typical, 68 watts maximum; an Intel P4 at 2.8 GHz (the slowest I can find readily available where I live) is rated at 56-68 watts (same page).

The other thing to bear in mind is: that thermal rating for the 970 is based upon figures for the 130 nm process. The die shrink to 90 nm should reduce it.

I don't think cooling is a major problem. It may take a bit of engineering work, but there's nothing particularly hard, I'd imagine. Yes, it's more than they've had to deal with when using the G4, but at least they don't have power constraints (which they will when it comes time to slide the G5 into a PowerBook.)

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[CordMeyer]

without cannibalising sales of the present generation of stock

According to the article, there is no stock. And else would they be refusing orders?

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the channel already has sufficient stock to last 2 months.

In otherwords, the demand isn't there for the current models.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evenparity]

It is more likely a problem engineering/production.

Two issues here: 1) Clearing the retail channels of old inventory, and 2) Start the clock ticking on the consumer decision making process (e.g. there is a lag between when a consumer becomes aware of a product and when he/she is ready to make the purchase).

To clear the sales channels, you wouldn't really want to announce a new product because people will just decide to wait for the new product. Possibly, announcing the delay will get some consumers frustrated enough to buy an old model, but according to the article, it was an internal schedule, not a public schedule, that is running behind.

To start the clock on the decision process, you need to actually hype the new product and get people excited about buying it. In this case, they don't reveal anything about the new product, so it is hard to think about buying something you don't know. (But maybe Apple users are just crazy that way....)

The irony is, if this is an announcement of a misstep, the announcement itself is further hurting Apple's business. Apple's got great marketing and product design, but its business processes really need some work.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[viggen9]

Shares of Apple Stock were down over $2.00 each in trading Friday morning---further sign that it IS a fuck-up on Apple's part. The street was expecting iMacs sooner.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[John Harrison]

First of all, you don't have any control over how much heat the G5 generates. No case layout, heatsinks, fans, can do anything of the sort. It's going to generate as much heat as it's going to generate.

Not true! Voltage and clockspeed both influence hot hot a processor runs. Many people that want to run fanless for noise reasons will buy a fast processor and underclock it so that it will run cool.

Another clever way of combatting heat is to be able to change speed on the fly, so that you match the current processing load. If you are editing code the processor can run slow and then when you compile it cranks up to full speed. This way you don't have a performance penalty but you aren't generating lots of heat the entire time.

It's really not a hot processor, so anyone who knows the basics of cooling a computer can handle it.

You seem to be oversimplifying the problem of cooling a G5 in the space of an iMac. Maybe once you've mailed in your solution you can tell them how to get one (or two!) into a Powerbook as well.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[callipygian-showsyst]

This is a fuck-up on Apple[']'s part

Of course it is! And I'm having a great time reading all the Apple Apoligists here talking about how this is a Good Thing!

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[waynelorentz]

I wonder if Apple have considered the southern hemisphere?

Strangely, Apple seems to be targeting their sales at regions where there are the greatest number of potential users. Something about being profitable or something.

I'm not saying the Southern Hemisphere isn't important. I'm sure you're all very nice people. But Apple is in the business of business. When you're a global player, sacrifices have to be made.

Although Q3 isn't ideal on either side of the Earth, at least it's time enough to ramp up for the Christmas holiday shopping season. I wonder if this is an indication that there won't be another machine released before then.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, sure, putting a G5 in an iMac case is trivial. Heck, you could put on in a Dell case or a pair of jogging shorts, for that matter. But to actually make the G5 do something without generating an excessive amount of heat, well, that's a bit more than trivial.

Gosh, I thought the above post was just referring to the physical size of the chip, or something else that made it physically difficult to put the chip into a case - but it's a THERMAL issue. Thanks so much for clearing that up, my pedantic friend! We were all so confused! :)

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[jstultz]

Not true! Voltage and clockspeed both influence hot hot a processor runs. Did you read what he said? First of all, you don't have any control over how much heat the G5 generates. No case layout, heatsinks, fans, can do anything of the sort. It's going to generate as much heat as it's going to generate. Even with the points that you've brought up, his still stand; his point being that it's not difficult to handle the heat from a G5, and you just outlined a few easy ways to regulate heat. Hmm.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[JeffTL]

What you forget is that apple.com is not the only place where you can acquire a Mac -- this is Apple, not Gateway or Dell, and Apple has retail channels. The physical Apple stores probably still have some, and of course some of the authorized resellers probably have decently-sized stockpiles.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[John Harrison]

You still have to jam it into a box the size of an iMac.

Yes I read what he said. My point is that you do have some control of the heat, and that is where he is wrong. Given that he doesn't understand that I would guess that he isn't an expert on designing the small, trendsetting cases that Apple comes out with for the iMac.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[j-pimp]

Don't confuse Wall Streets expectations with apple consumers

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[zhenlin]

They are stopping _online_ sales. The brick-and-mortar Apple Stores will presumably still have old iMac stock.

And, this is the first time [in my experience] that an old Apple product will run out of stock before a new Apple product is shipped, so I don't expect the typical rapidly falling prices of a must-clear-stock-sale. On the other hand, maybe people will just sit on their money and wait for the new iMac, and the price will fall because of low demand.

Who knows.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[rfernand79]

It may be that or something simpler: excess of inventory of current iMacs.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[discstickers]

The original iMacs had a fan, until the redesign, the iMac DV, SE and friends. Those were convection cooled. The iMac G4 always has had a fan.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[AKAImBatman]

Another clever way of combatting heat is to be able to change speed on the fly, so that you match the current processing load. If you are editing code the processor can run slow and then when you compile it cranks up to full speed. This way you don't have a performance penalty but you aren't generating lots of heat the entire time.

Most processors go into "halt" mode when they're not processing anything. This automatically keeps heat and energy usage down without reclocking the chip. The chip only wakes up when it receives a interrupt that needs its attention. (e.g. Time for the next time slice.)

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[geoffspear]

Or it might have more to do with the broader sell off of tech shares than an announcement about a single product.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

Good post. I am very tired of hearing how G5 needs 9 fans to cool down. You hear this often even in the mainstream 'tech' articles. Apple could have easily put one fan (if you don't mind the sound of a wind tunnel in your office or living room). Apple put 9 fans to do it quietly. They pay attention to such details. That is 'Apple design'. That is why there is a small premium on their products, and that is why Apple has a loyal customer base who appreciate quality.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't just an online sales thing.

Tech Data and Ingram have been out for quite a while now. The dealer where I work hasn't been able to get either iMacs or eMacs for a month now - from either distributors or direct from Apple.

I've got customers who are PISSED that they don't have machines that were ordered a month ago. We started selling them used CRT iMacs as temporary machines so that they won't have employees sitting on their hands.

I think if anybody still has these machines, they can count on getting above MAP right now.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[AnonymousKev]

True. True.

Actually, you should never confuse Wall Street expectations with reality.

"Argh! My Armani ripped! Sell! SELL!"

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[gabebear]

my iMac DV has no fan and has firewire. It is probably my best computer purchase ever.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[tverbeek]

But the new iMacs are announced for September, which is really too late to catch the school sales.

But (generally speaking) schools don't buy the iLamps. It's a great space-saving design for homes, but lousy for classrooms/labs. That's why the eMac was created: schools wanted a CRT-priced, CRT-style unit that would be more kid- and teen-proof. I work for a college that has all sorts of desktop Macs (Power G*'s, iCRTs, eMacs), but not a single iLamp anywhere.

The supply issues with the eMacs are more likely to be painful to Apple and to the schools that buy from them. We were considering buying a roomful of eMacs, but instead we're buying some Power G5's and that room's going to be equipped with hand-me-down Power G4's instead... a lucky choice.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[hunterx11]

If you want to hear what it would sound like if the fans were going full speed, trying booting in single-user mode and wait ten mintues. Your computer will sound like it's going to blow up :)

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Chris Tucker]

so an A.C. sez:

"I'm using a 800MHz G3 iBook and it's plenty fast enough for me doing just about anything. Unless you're using photoshop or crunching numbers, why do you even need a G4? "

EXACTLY! My current Mac is a PowerMac 5500/225, with a Sonnet Crescendo 400 Mhz G3 card in the L2 cache slot.

Photoshop 4 runs perfectly well and at a respectable clip on this machine, As do my spreadsheets and just about any other application I ask it to run.

Compared to the first/second gen CRT iMacs. my Mac just blows them all away in terms of speed, and I get to use all my old SCSI and serial port peripherals, too.

I did drop a USB card into the PCI slot, so I could use a more modern mouse, and when I finally get an iPod, I'll change out the USB card for a USB/FireWire card.

All I really NEED right now, is an internal CD-RW SCSI drive to replace the stock CD-ROM drive.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[HybridJeff]

Maybe its just me, but I always thought school sales was refering too all the college and univeristy kids who need to buy a new computer to take with them when they go back to school in the fall.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[djtripp]

And when do most school start? September(or ultra late August)... True, an August annoucnement would be nice, but then everyone starts to complain about waiting a month for the actual machine to ship. So six of one, half dozen of the other. At least you wont have an old iMac on order for 2 months, only to have it cancled later.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[shotfeel]

Except that you don't get rid of excess inventory by halting sales -which is what Apple has done. You can no longer buy iMacs from Apple (at least online) because they don't have any to sell you. If they had any they would sell them.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[shotfeel]

And, AFAIK schools have already placed their orders so they can install computers over summer break.

The "school sales" I'd worry about are the student purchases. I don't know how big of a factor they are.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[cft_128]

Of course it is! And I'm having a great time reading all the Apple Apoligists here talking about how this is a Good Thing!

Right up there with the joy I get out of reading how M$ deals with its IE security holes.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

My point is that you do have some control of the heat,

No, your "point" is completely irrelevant... You are making nothing but straw men here.

Given that he doesn't understand that

I do understand that. I understand it very well. I've written many documents on similar subjects, an some (slightly) related info in my journal.

designing the small, trendsetting cases that Apple comes out with for the iMac.

You are really showing yourself to be an idiot here.

A case that is a smaller size (read: small volume of air inside) is not somehow magically harder to cool. It's not as if you have only the air inside the case to work with. In fact, a smaller case can be quite benefitial, because you can have more air being pulled in (and pushed out) by much less fan power.

In larger cases (such as the common PC tower) it's common for much of the hot air to be recirculated within the case, rather than going straight out, making cooling more difficult. AMD has even poo-pooed most uses of the common intake fan on PC towers because they don't draw in cool air, but mostly just recirculate the hot air.

So, no, effective cooling of an iMac case is not a big challenge.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

Not true! Voltage and clockspeed both influence hot hot a processor runs.
Listen Einstein... Voltage and clockspeed are not part of case design.

You seem to be oversimplifying the problem of cooling a G5 in the space of an iMac.

Space has very little to do with cooling... Having large enough air intakes and exits is all that matters, and an iMac case is more than large enough to have several.

tell them how to get one (or two!) into a Powerbook as well.

A powerbook is much more of a challenge, because you have a severe limit on the size of the heatsink and fans you can use. That part is doable (after all, they put P4s in notebooks, don't they?), but it's much more work.

The bigger problem with G5s in a notebook is battery life.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

Right up there with the joy I get out of reading how M$ deals with its IE security holes.

I prefer to read how the Dept. of Homeland Security deals with IE security holes.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[jimbolaya]

Listen Einstein... Voltage and clockspeed are not part of case design

No, but it is part of the design of the computer. That's the whole point here: these things are not "trivial". You're oversimplifying. If it were trivial, Apple wouldn't be in a situation where it doesn't have any iMacs to sell for months.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[jimbolaya]

I can't understand why all these "trivial" issues have eluded the engineers at Apple. I also can't understand why they haven't hired you, since you could obviously make these iMac supply issues disappear.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

If it were trivial, Apple wouldn't be in a situation where it doesn't have any iMacs to sell for months.

And you KNOW it's an engineering problem, HOW? What information are you privvy to that the rest of us missed?

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

Right, real good defense argument...

You somehow "know" that this is the exact problem they are having.

You also don't want to dispute the facts of the matter. You'd rather deal with innuendo, supposition, straw man arguments, etc.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[jimbolaya]

No, I don't know...and I'm not claiming to know. YOU are the one claiming to "know" that it's trivial for Apple to put a G5 in a Powermac. Where DO you get your wonderful knowledge?

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[rfernand79]

My point was that maybe there are iMacs already out there on inventory -- with resellers. Instead of introducing a new model, they may just be waiting for the resellers to get rid of their current inventories. But you're right, even this sounds unrealisitic.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[GORDOOM]

Actually, it's not the first time this has happened, though it is the first time that Apple has gone public about it.

During the summer of 2003, Apple had planned to release the second revision of the aluminum PowerBook G4s. However, the release was delayed until September - but in the meantime, all of the stock of the older models, and especially of the 12-inchers, had run out. For about two months, it was basically impossible to get a 12" PowerBook, and the other form factors were little better.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

iMac, not PowerMac.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[Anonymous Coward]

The brick-and-mortar Apple Stores will presumably still have old iMac stock.

They've been out for weeks, anticpating some announcement from the conference - I took my mother out to look at the demos - and she chose a 15" - and then - the announcement - As an aside - mom has cancer - and just needed something to get some nice e-mails and was easy to use for her next round of treatment - I did manage to find one online through a clearinghouse before all stocks dried up - I can tell you - I know the Apple reps - they were pissed off - They said - *what are we going to sell to all the students on there way to school?*

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[japhmi]

I don't know why people are hounding for the G5 anyway... I'm using a 800MHz G3 iBook and it's plenty fast enough for me doing just about anything. Unless you're using photoshop or crunching numbers, why do you even need a G4?

From running a computer lab full of G4 flat-pannel iMacs for art students... just about everyone I come into contact with. Especially the Maya class.

We'd love to replace our main classroom with G5 iMacs.

Re:Legitimate Sales Tactic

[evilviper]

No, I don't know...and I'm not claiming to know.

Yes, you continue claiming to know. Over and over again you say that it's not trivial, and that it would be shipping by now if it was. Look at your own posts.

YOU are the one claiming to "know" that it's trivial for Apple to put a G5 in a Powermac.

I said that to dispute the original claim that it would be a terribly difficult engineering challenge. It's as if simple fluid dynamics and heatsink/fan selection has been elevated into rocket science by Apple marketing.

In fact, I want to ask why you felt the need to chime-in at all... You admit you don't know much about this, yet you are always completely and totally convinced that I am certainly wrong.

Where DO you get your wonderful knowledge?

Well, there are a great deal of sources, so I'll just enumerate the most significant...

1. It was probably in my 1st grade class that I first learned how to use a ruler to measure things. Yes, this is part of the reason I know that the G5 will fit in an iMac case.

2. Although I can't say for sure, I believe my experiences in the process of single-handedly assembling hudreds of computers from pieces may have at least a tiny bit to do with my knowledge of what is needed to cool a computer...

3. Troubleshooting many, many dozens of computers, with CPU/powersupply overheating problems, has taught me quite a bit.

4. http://users.erols.com/chare/elec.htm & http://www.apple.com/

Re:Whats wrong with my computer?

[Senator Bozo]

It's running Windows.

they should call it a jMac

[Anonymous Coward]

then users will need to upgrade to a jPod and perhaps a jPaq for compatability - a great marketing scheme

Re:they should call it a jMac

[Anonymous Coward]

A "J-Pac" is already something we use for building arcade machines.

Re:they should call it a jMac

[mrchaotica]

iPAQs DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

(with apologies to Morbo)

Re:they should call it a jMac

[Shaklee39]

...and that is why he said "jpaq"

Re:they should call it a jMac

[wildsurf]

then users will need to upgrade to a jPod and perhaps a jPaq for compatability

How about calling it the jWalk?

Re:they should call it a jMac

[Anonymous Coward]

...and that is why you are a "moran"

Pidgeon Holed

[mphase]

I'm not sure how valid this thought is but it would seem that using Apple products in a school (talked about in the article) setting would pidgeon hole students into a very limited sector of the market. I'm not saying running Windows is going to be better or anything but for example I would have loved being able to choose to work on a platform of my choosing instead of being forced into one thing.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, thats a great idea... schools are so good at spending money that they can run all classes on at least four OSes and have staff to look after the lot... hell, give students the option to pick a language too... and i always felt they'd be better giveng the option of base 6 maths

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[mphase]

I didn't mean to say that all platforms should be used in a schools curriculum. I was talking about systems made available for general use in schools. For example at one school I attended we had a few older macs for writing papers and such on.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[clymere]

As a CS student, I often wonder why are labs are all WIndows. Its a horrible OS to write software in, IMHO.

OTOH, you have to realize that 95% of students are using computers to surf the web, send e-mail, and write papers...and thats it(unless you count entertainment things like games, mp3's etc.). These are things that could be done on literally ANY platform, and are virtually the SAME on every platform. You have MS Office for both Windows and Mac, and for Linux under Crossover Office. You have Mozilla or Netscape for any of those platforms...not that using them is all that different from IE.

And nowadays, a document or picture saved on one of those platforms is going to be readable on any of the others. So a student can easily take their work home, regardless of whether they have a mac, windows, linux, whatever.

The bottom line is that generally speaking, schools should just buy whatever is the best deal. Whether it is the most widely used platform or not is completely insignificant at this point. Unless you're a CS student, you'll do your homework the same way no matter what the system is.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[martin]

Depends where go to University.

I was my old Uni in May (100 years of it being a Uni), and they use Linux in the labs - which replaced SGI's..

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

i get what you mean... my (not so clear) point is, however, that schools will always buy whats chepest, rarley whats best and nevr whats wost interesting - which is why, in many schools, you end up with a hodge podge of mixed up and poorly maintained pc (and curriculum for that matter)
i've seen a few schools try to go all linux - only to find that they don't have the expertise to manage them - this is where apple have always been strong in the education market, not only do they provide education with discount pricing, they often provide training and services at a price point education can understand (and its well marketed to them)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[bedouin]

Schools have tight budgets and may not be able to afford a full-time network administrator. I'd choose whatever platform meant the least amount of troubles. Windows is pretty much ruled out there.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Lewisham]

If your CS lab is forcing you to code in Windows, they're doing something wrong. You should be coding platform-independant C, which you sure as heck won't be getting on Windows (unless you're using a godawful DOS prompt).

Like the other reply, our lab was full Sun Solaris before moving to full Red Hat 9 this year. We have no Windows machines at all.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

Standards don't have to be free. Something can be a standard as long as it is appointed one by the relevant standards commitee.

eg. MPEG4 isn't free.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Xrikcus]

We have no windows only machines in the labs, they either dual boot, are linux only, or are G5s. So it does seem to depend on where you attend. Our network is managed by the department, and largely by student, however, people are fighting to keep it this way, if college IT gets hold of it, I dread to think what might happen.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[bheer]

> Its a horrible OS to write software in, IMHO

Even if you hadn't written you were a CS student, it would've been kind of obvious by the ivory-tower snarkiness of that post :-)

Windows is a pretty good OS to write software for, depending on the kind of software you make. Remember the time when Sun's Windows JVM actually ran better than its Solaris JVM? Compared to the Linux crowd, Microsoft _knows_ how to put a desktop OS together, even if it's a Renault minivan compared to OS X's BMW.

OTOH, you have to realize that 95% of students are using computers to surf the web, send e-mail, and write papers...and thats it

Are you saying that because the Linux desktop can now do email+web in a semi-decent manner (thanks to Moz) we should accept a _drop_ in usability and go to an inferior desktop? What happens when I want to make my digital video camera work? What happens when I want my MP3 player to work? And please don't point me to half-assed SF.net projects, give me something a typical history major could use.

And even if you were talking about college procurements, why *should* colleges buy the lowest common denominator especially when it will be reviled by everyone except the CS department? Yeah, in the ideal world, they'd buy only Macs and make the both the history majors and the CS crowd happy, but go take Economics 101 and figure out why that's not likely anytime soon.

The bottom line is that generally speaking, schools should just buy whatever is the best deal. Whether it is the most widely used platform or not is completely insignificant at this point.

Right now, Windows *is* the best deal. Like all best deals, it is a compromise. It makes History majors reasonably happy, it makes the beancounters reasonably happy, and the CS folk tolerate it because they can use Cygwin or SFU.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[tessonec]

Are you saying that because the Linux desktop can now do email+web in a semi-decent manner (thanks to Moz) we should accept a _drop_ in usability and go to an inferior desktop? What happens when I want to make my digital video camera work? What happens when I want my MP3 player to work? And please don't point me to half-assed SF.net projects, give me something a typical history major could use.

inferior desktop??? ... come on! Perhaps there are defficiencies in Linux desktop, but happens that ALL defficiencies you pointed out are already solved in most distros:

digital camer aconnecting is already done by KDE out-of-the-box and I remember also working in GNOME. WHITHOUT A FUSS (if it is USB, but is all what your point is about because serial interfaces will not work if you don't have admin access to intall drivers

mp3 always work out-of-the box at least in Suse, I know patent-related-stuff in RedHat and others, but the rpm's are already there, at your fingertips

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, there are so many things in this post that are just plain wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

So I won't. Won't change the idiot-bheer's mind anyway.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[A. Pizmo Clam]

As a CS student, I often wonder why are labs are all WIndows. Its a horrible OS to write software in, IMHO.

It's especially a horrible OS to run a lab on. Ditto for Macs.

I don't see for the life of me how a university with a comprehensive identity-management system (they all have one, if they have email) gets by having desktop settings and file access tied to the machine and not the user. 'Specially given that college kids are not exactly sedentary.

When I was in school, we still used telnet and pine on AIX to check email. That at least gave you a small, portable console environment that was your own. Now that schools are moving to web-based email, things are even worse.

Three words, unis: Sun m.f.-ing Rays. The kids get their own desktop preferences, browser settings, bookmarks and files wherever they go; everyone's happy.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

If your Uni used SGIs for general purpose word processing and email, they have way too much money on their hands...otherwise, you're a twit for not reading the parent post,

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[TrancePhreak]

You can do the same with Windows using a Windows based server. If you're smart, you can even get programs to transfer with you. We had a setup similar to what you describe at my school for about 3 years. On the 4th year the admin got smart and setup Windows server with Samba shares and we could travel around to any computer with our settings and our files.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[listen]

If your CS lab thinks that C is a good language for doing computer science in, they are doing something seriously wrong.

Seriously, only operating systems courses can really justify mandating C in this day and age.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[jennifer_l]

As a CS student, I often wonder why are labs are all WIndows. Its a horrible OS to write software in, IMHO. I was a CS student until last year. I think our system worked. Most public computer rooms for students were Windows and Mac; the Computer Lab itself dual boot linux (Red Hat, but you can't win 'em all) and Windows, most of the terminals were left in Linux, but you could easily reboot. Programming languages taught all had compilers etc for Win and Lin. Most of the internal docs were ps. In first year we learnt both OSs. It worked.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see for the life of me how a university with a comprehensive identity-management system (they all have one, if they have email) gets by having desktop settings and file access tied to the machine and not the user. 'Specially given that college kids are not exactly sedentary.

At the University of Texas, they have some Windows labs (thankfully not in the CS department), and they have a pretty good solution to this problem: every time someone logs out, the whole machine is re-imaged with a fresh copy of Windows. Does wonders for keeping them virus-free. Prevents people from screwing up the settings, too. And it helps protect students' privacy because they can't accidentally leave some file around in C:\TEMP. Plus, when you sit down at the machine, you can actually have SOME degree of confidence that your keystrokes aren't being monitored, etc.

About the only down side is it takes something like 10 minutes for the process to happen. So, some computer time is waste. But if the average person stays on a machine for an hour or two, that still leaves close to 90% of the time for real use of the computer, and it's even higher if you assume that the lab is not filled to capacity all the time. If I remember right, they even have some kind of system that tracks which machines are done re-imaging, so you don't have to walk around and guess which machines you can login to -- you just look at the map which is being updated in real time.

(The labs I'm thinking of are the ones in the UGL a/k/a FAC, if someone wants to correct any facts I didn't get right.)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[general_re]

Three words, unis: Sun m.f.-ing Rays. The kids get their own desktop preferences, browser settings, bookmarks and files wherever they go; everyone's happy.

Or, since they apparently already have the Windows machines there and running, they could implement roaming profiles, which have been available since Windows 95.

Sorry, but it's your IT staff that's not giving you what you want, not the OS...

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Moraelin]

Here's a wild idea for you: a CS college, like any college, is supposed to prepare you to do actual useful work in the real world.

There are a bunch of things you'll discover when you get out of college. Not of all nice. Actually few of them nice. There's a reason why it's the job where, in spite of the good money and all, satisfaction is lower than among plumbers and shoe sales clerks.

Believe it or not, being a programmer isn't about having fun with the platform or tools of your choice. When you go out in the real world, you're going to have to make the programs that the client wants. On the platform of _their_ choice, and often even having the language, tools and frameworks thrust upon you by some management decision. In 9 cases out of 10 the wrong tools and frameworks.

You're also likely going to have to learn to function in a team. Aside from other considerations, that means being able to live with the architecture, OS, tools and frameworks that someone else in the team chose.

(You're also going to have to live with such specs as "All text must be in 7 pixel fonts, in dark cyan on neon blue". Or light orange on orange-ish yellow. No, honestly, I've actually had to make programs for those exact two corporate colour schemes.)

I.e., some day you'll be glad you have those Windows labs on your CV. It might just be what your customer wants you to write software for.

Horrible as you may find it. Personally I don't. But it still beats being unemployed.

That said, of course, I would question any CS college which has _only_ Windows on the menu. Wouldn't hurt at all to give you at least some minimal idea about other stuff too.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[1u3hr]

What happens when I want to make my digital video camera work? What happens when I want my MP3 player to work? And please don't point me to half-assed SF.net projects, give me something a typical history major could use.

Why does a history major need to use a digitakl camera or play MP3s? (For coursework, that is. If for fun, let them buy their own toys.)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Colonel Cholling]

So a student can easily take their work home, regardless of whether they have a mac, windows, linux, whatever.

I've got a Kaypro running CP/M, you insensitive clod!

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[lexarius]

I'm a CS student, and thankfully our labs here at UF offer a bit of variety. In the main lab where the masses go to check their e-mail or whatever it is they do, you can choose between Windows, Unix, and eMacs. The "real" lab has Windows and Solaris machines, and Linux machines in the next room. The only time I can't avoid the Windows machines is when I'm programming my chip.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[benj_e]

You're right. I always hated them forcing me to use the textbooks that *they* chose.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[rufo]

While the other two folks here mentioned that Windows can do this too, I thought I would point out that a Mac can use network-based home folders as well. It's even possible to boot a Mac entirely off the network, so it loads the OS image, home folder, etc. all entirely off the network. There was one particularly fun demo I recall where Apple had a rack of 50 iMacs all boot simultaneously off one G3 server, then proceeded to connect and play some QuickTime movie (also off the server). Ah, fun times...

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

it would seem that using Apple products in a school (talked about in the article) setting would pidgeon hole students into a very limited sector of the market.

How right you are!

Students who use Mac OS X in college won't be able to stoop to anything that works less well, even for the added power of using an OS like Linux or a true BSD. Students who use Linux or a true BSD won't be happy with anything but that or Mac OS X. But a student who has spent his college career using MS-Windows will use *anything*.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

If a CS student can't write a program in assembly language, then you have no business with a degree.

The only reason I'd drop "C" is to include assembler, but ideally, I'd teach both.

Do you think someone "skilled in the art" and presents himself as an expert ("I have a degree in Computer science") can get by without an passing knowledge of assembler level coding?

No wonder jobs are getting outsourced to India. Our CS majors are afraid of "C" and "Assember". You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[dustmite]

but go take Economics 101 and figure out why that's not likely anytime soon.

I know everyone always blasts Mac as being expensive since your initial costs are high, but I'm wondering, are there actual (independent) studies comparing TCO of Macs and PCs as desktop systems? I have this hunch when you add all the additional support and virus and spyware etc. problems with PCs, and all the other 'extras' like anti-virus software subscriptions, factor in lower training costs for Mac and corresponding additional efficiency/productivity gains of using more intuitive and trouble-free systems, I suspect that TCO of Macs (as a desktop system) might easily be lower than PCs.

That's in "end-user-land", and even for CS students Macs seem like a good idea because of (a) the standards-based underpinnings, (b) the good design of the system and APIs etc, which set a much better example for CS students to follow that the Windows API, which no matter how you look at it, is a totally utterly crap API, and the only people I've ever met who think it's not a bad API are people who've never really been exposed to any other OS/widgets API, ever, so they have nothing to compare it to.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[dustmite]

OK, did some googling; according to this: http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2001/04/30/sch ools/ ... Macs have an average TCO of $400 LESS per year than PCs. Googling around, this seems to be the trend too, not the exception. I guess you should be the one taking Economics 101 then ;)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[dustmite]

More: http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-6033_16-4206930. html.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Benanov]

Windows has that sort of preference-passing. It's not complete, but it's there. Was implemented at PSU when I went there. --Ben

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[bheer]

I'm not trying to troll when I called Linux an inferior desktop (well, considering this /. it was probably unintended flamebait :-)) -- please realize: most history majors do _not_ have the time or patience to go back time and again and download the latest and greatest distros to solve basic hardware interop issues that are no-brainers in Windows XP or OS X*. Hell, I've helped folk on LUGs with sendmail.cf back in the day and I chafed at the idiocy I had to put up with while connecting a scanner. (cue to jwz's famous Linux-is-free-if-your-time-has-no-value rant here).

Regarding cameras: USB mass-storage devices (which'd imply most cameras) might work with KDE and Gnome now (I last used Gnome 2.2), but what about USB devices that don't implement a mass-storage interface, e.g. the Creative Zen, which stupidly doesn't implement one for its music library? How easily can Aunt Tillie hook up her iPod on KDE?

*Yeah, this is all because of proprietary hardware. Who said life was fair?

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[bheer]

> Why does a history major need to use a digitakl camera or play MP3s?

In the next paragraph I clarified that I was talking about the general case: And even if you were talking about college procurements, why *should* colleges buy the lowest common denominator...

Besides, as these devices become more common, it's likely they'll get adopted in class. iPods are useful note-takers, for example. K-12 schools already use cameras and audio to great effect.

Finally, if you argument is that Linux is better because "it can do less and no one needs that extra sh*t anyway" ... well, with evangelists like you, don't expect largescale adoption anytime soon :-).

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[bheer]

Individual purchases: Tell that bit about TCO to the student who has to balance rent, partying and beer with buying a desktop or laptop. Sure, if he's got the cash and knows his way around, he'll buy a mac (which is expensive even after the Apple .edu discount, especially when you consider Dell and HP offer specials regularly). If he's not got the money he'll buy a Gateway or Dell or no-namer.

Interestingly, if he's got the money but not got friends with the `nerd' set, guess what he'll buy? Most of the time, I'll bet it'll be Windows.

As for school purchases: I'd take TCO studies with a pinch of salt because even when _not_ biased they are very sensitive to the environment studied. Despite all the TCO hype, accountants depreciate Macs at the same rate as PCs, and that's all that really matters.

Anyhow, most universities buy PCs because between the PC makers and Apple, PC makers give a better deal - competition at work. And yeah, I guess the fact that they get a lot of OS support on x86 helps too. Apple has historically done well in the K12 market because of its simplicity, not because the schools' ancient Macs run the latest and greatest Mac apps well (so much for useful lifetime - just goes to show `useful lifetimes' are whatever you define them to be).

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[zhenlin]

Bizarrely, my school employs not one, not two, but four full-time network administrators. Granted, there are in excess of three hundred computers in the school, and three thousand students, not to mention at least 10 AD domains, last I checked.

Yes, Active Directory.

Then again, my school has relatively high school fees, and the IT spending is typically over the budgeted amount... Not to mention I have a sinking feeling that the school is in some sort of contract with Dell or something, every new shipment of computers to the school (4 of approx. 25 each in the last two years) has been a Dell...

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[alienw]

You just have a crappily run IT system at your school. At my university, they set stuff up so that your personal filespace is on a Linux server (running AFS), and all your preferences, bookmarks, and so on get saved to the network drive automatically. If you double click on the mail client, it opens your email. If you set up an icon on the desktop, or a desktop background, it will stay there when you log in on another machine. This works exactly the same on WinXP, Linux, and OSX from anywhere on campus, so it's very convenient.

WinXP is not too bad of a system, actually. It just requires a very skilled admin to lock it down and set it up for a multiuser system. Plus, the security holes are a biatch.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[PantsWearer]

Here's a wild idea for you: a CS college, like any college, is supposed to prepare you to do actual useful work in the real world.

I hate to tell you this, but a college degree is supposed to teach you about the subject(s) of that degree. If you were supposed to learn about "real world" work, there'd be whole courses in how to fill out time sheets.

When it comes down to it, I don't think windows is a good choice as a teaching platform for CS. We always hear that we aren't supposed to reinvent the wheel when coding, but understanding the wheel is what learning is about. In that case, we should be writing to a minimalist API without much chance to do more. Command line UNIX is a great place for this. Heck, I learned with only stdio.h in my C includes. When I learned C++, the standard libs weren't really finalized, so we did a lot of rewriting. From a "getting ready to work in the real world" perspective, this was completely useless, but from an understanding of datastructures and algorithms, which is a major portion of a CS degree, it was great.

If you want to get a degree that will be able to directly apply to working in the "real world" go get a tech certification somewhere. It'll give you exactly what you need to do your job without any understanding of the reasons why you do it.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

As a mechanical engineer, I was required to take courses in many fields: fluid dynamics, heat transfer, dynamics & kinetics, control systems, statics, CAD/CAM, etc. with extra courses for the specific subject that interest me. I don't give a damn about mechanics of material, but I have to know it. It's part of what makes a mechanical engineer a mechanical engineer. The same goes with electrical engineering students. They have to learn about high-voltage, low-voltage, etc.

I think Computer Science dept. must offer and must make students to take up basic language courses (C++, Java, PERL) and multiple OSes (*NIX, OS X, Windows) as a requirement to graduate. Specific subjects such as coding using DirectX or CoreAudio or advanced Java should be covered in courses that students must take to complete the credits according to where they want to work and their interests. There are way too many one-dimensional comp sci students now that know nothing beyond Windows. It can't be good in the long run for the computer industry. Great ideas come in many flavors.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Romeozulu]

Oh, this is so true. I just started at a contract job and two recent CS graduate employees were *amazed* that I could code in C++ and ASM. It was like magic to them.

What are they being taught these days. And Yes, I do think CS students should program in Windows, and on the Mac and in Linux. They should see the differences in these, especially writing GUI apps.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[shotfeel]

At my University, for each computer lab (we're talking College of Engineering, not CS) roughly half were workstations, the other half were Macs (would I date myself if I said they were brand new Mac Plus's?).

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

Accountants may depreciate Macs at the same rate as PCs, but eBay certainly doesn't.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[georgewilliamherbert]

I've got a Kaypro running CP/M, you insensitive clod!

And browsing with ... what?

terminal via 9600 serial, into a real box?

Or do you have the KA9Q TCP/IP stack running?

;-)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[Sunnan]

You're talking about standard as in "standard windows".

I'm talking about standard as in "the environment everyone should adhere to".

Maybe I was using the language wrong, then.

(BTW, I was surprised that I was moderated troll - I wasn't intentionally trolling for flames, just trying to point out the difference between teaching windows and teaching base-10 math.)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[clymere]

he problem is i never really got into coding until i started using Linux. Ou classes are/were generally taught telnetting into Unix(Solaris) servers from the Windows DOS command line. Very little to get excited about there.

Ever since I started using Linux, Ive discovered how exciting coding could be, and have a host of tools at my disposal to code with...by default.

I still use Windows as well...but only for graphics. I can't afford a Mac.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[clymere]

Windows is a pretty good OS to write software for

I said "in" not "for". There is a BIG difference there. This summer I've taken a robotics programming class using the ARIA API. I coded all of my programs in Linux, using only one .cpp file for each assignment. The other students(and the teacher) spent the whole semester pulling their hair out trying to create relatively simple programs, and cut and paste from one to another( a lot of the code is jsut repetive "glue"), trying to figure out why things didn't work when there were a half dozen files created created by Visual Studio each time they wanted to code. We learned more about troubleshooting VS than we did about robotics, i fear.

On top of that, Windows does not normally come with ANY development tools, my other primary reason it is a bad platform to code ON. You can't just walk up to any available Windows box and code. Precious few have VS on them. Very few Linux or UNIX boxes come without at least a few tools like Emacs and VI.

Right now, Windows *is* the best deal. Like all best deals, it is a compromise. It makes History majors reasonably happy, it makes the beancounters reasonably happy, and the CS folk tolerate it because they can use Cygwin or SFU.

Generally speaking, i actually agree with you. I did not say ay any point that I thought Linux was the best deal. In fact, as cheap as the typical college campus gets Windows, and as plentiful as people with Windows adnom skills are, Windows very well may be the cheapest choice for most universities.

You clearly missed my point, which was that there was no reason a campus neccesarily had to use Mac, Windows, Linux, or any one platform anymore...each of these has become so compatible, to the point that they all run the same software...it really makes financial viability the msot important factor.

I just want Windows kept out of our Computer Science departments. Make the machines dual-boot, and let us have a choice. I bought a laptop of my own because the ones in our library our setup in such a way that one can't even run Knoppix...making it very hard for me to get homework done(as mentioned above, default windows installs don't have Visual Studio.)

Windows is a nice easy-to-use system for most of the world. It defintely has its place. But if you are trying to tell me its an ideal development platform, or even as good of one as a typical UNIX or Linux systemm, you are either not a coder, highly ignorant, or flat-out lying.

And I'll remind you again, for developing "on," not "for." Completely different things.

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[clymere]

It depends. At my school CS students are required to learn C, among other things. CIS students can get by with VB and some PHP/SQL skills.

I've actually been really, really wanting to learn some assembler and annoying all my profs about it. We really don't offer a course...theres one in mainframe assembler, but on the books.

I feel like everyone nowdays should get a litle bit of x86 assembler. How else am I going to write drivers for all these devices I get that don't work in Linux? :)

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[bheer]

I coded all of my programs in Linux, using only one .cpp file for each assignment. The other students(and the teacher) spent the whole semester pulling their hair out trying to create relatively simple programs, and cut and paste from one to another( a lot of the code is jsut repetive "glue"), trying to figure out why things didn't work when there were a half dozen files created created by Visual Studio each time they wanted to code.

cl (which the C++ compiler underneath Visual Studio - now downloadable for free) has a complete roster of command line options.. try "cl -help" sometime. A typical college exercise should be compileable with a "cl -o foo.exe foo.cpp bar.lib baz.lib". Of course, nmake and link exist in case your code is larger than a 1-unit job. I'm not sure what you mean about "glue". If you're writing code for Win32's GUI, you do have cruft -- .rc files that define your GUI -- but those are a necessary evil. Pre-compiled headers are optional and you don't need the IDE for those anyway. Now, since you said other students "got lost" in Visual Studio, please, please tell me these weren't CS students, otherwise I'll know why all the jobs are headed to India :->

On top of that, Windows does not normally come with ANY development tools, my other primary reason it is a bad platform to code ON. You can't just walk up to any available Windows box and code. Precious few have VS on them. Very few Linux or UNIX boxes come without at least a few tools like Emacs and VI.

The compiler suite (includes nmake and the like) is downloadable for free. The API docs are downloadable for free. I do realize that as a student, you do not have administrative access into university computers, but this looks like a goof-up on the part of your university IS staff, not MS. Although I strongly believe MS is stupid not to bundle dev tools with all its academic editions.

But if you are trying to tell me its an ideal development platform, or even as good of one as a typical UNIX or Linux systemm, you are either not a coder, highly ignorant, or flat-out lying.

I don't believe any of Unix/Linux or Windows is an _ideal_ dev environment. Having developed for Solaris, Linux _and_ Windows, I'd say each has pros and cons. That said, I write code for a living, and I believe Windows is just as productive -- I'd say more productive but that's just my opinion -- an environment as Unix if you know what to do (mainly, stop expecting it to do everything the Unix way) and you know the platform limitations (e.g. cross-platform OpenGL support on Windows sucks).

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[clymere]

No GUI programming involved. We were simply programming in C with the ARIA API for the Activemedia Amigobots. Very simple programs, but there were a lot of ARIA specific commands that were completely foreign to VS.

my impression was that much like windows itself, VS is very difficult to trouble-shoot when things go wrong.

You are right that i can't download whatever I want at school. I am also unsure how many systems may or may not have some of the tools you mentioned. My beef is that they aren't included by default. Obviously there are a billion aps to do these things which i can download...and in fact i've grabbed the borland C++ compiler and a few freeware text editors for my windows partition. It took considerable effort to find decent ones however, and a lot of time.

particularly for a new programmer, Linux is much easier, because everything is there. I pull my "development" and "editors" menus in KDE and there are a dozen choices right there.

out-of-the-box, windows doesn't even know wha to do with a .cpp or .pl file. I agree with you about academic editions, and I'll go one further: They really ought to market a developers edition, which has ALL of these tools packaged. As hard as they are trying for "developers, developers, developers," and as many college CS departments as they have commited to using their tools...you'd think they'd at least create a more ideal environment.

Of course i go to a smaller school. Perhaps it is different elsewhere. All I can say is that I never really learned much of anything in school until I installed Linux on my home machine. That is when the lightbulb went off and everything seemed to come together. I think Linux is a more ideal OS for a student also because of its transparency. Using Windows i had a vague concept of what a kernel was. Using Linux I have a very good grasp of what it is, how important it is, and even whats in it, thanks to the occasional need to recompile one(somethine one never does in windows).

I think Linux is a wonderful educational tool. And because its free and will run on damn near anything, you have greater freedom to just tinker, and if it breaks, oh well. You often learn the most from breaking things :)

No disrespect to Windows...i use it for graphics( i can't afford a Mac as a student). Every OS has its place. The very things that make Windows easy-to-use make it bad for learning, IMHO. The same could certainly be said vice-versa for linux!

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[clymere]

I agree with you on Linux not being right for everyone.

However, it doesn't sound like you're very up-to-date with Linux. VIrtually every kind of USB device works under Linux, most very easily. I own scanners, digital cameras, USB flash drives, etc. etc. I have found only one device of mine which is unsupported, and thats a very chincy generic gooseneck webcam i bought at walmart for next to nothing. There are default webcam apps in Linux, and my old webcam (a more common logitech) is most defintely supported.

The rule of thumb now is that if a majority uses it, and its not bleeding edge, its supported. Plenty of things that fit neither of these descriptions work. How many people use Wacom tablets or a Griffin Powermate? Both are obscure USB devices, both have support...in the KERNEL.

So to answer...Aunt Millie can probably use her ipod just as easily in KDE(especially in a polished distro like SuSE 9.1) as she can on a Mac or in Windows.

Gnome is at 2.6 and KDE at 3.2. Lots of advancements have been made. I was impressed to find that many things(my Rio500, Palm m100) work as well if not BETTER under Linux as with the software they came with(for Windows).

Re:Pidgeon Holed

[listen]

Of course assembler is useful. It is shocking that a large number of CS courses don't teach it at all. I'm even more surprised at the number of CS students who have no clue about any area of the subject they have a degree in.

I do use inline assembler... as rarely as I can. Only when the compiler is being stupid. C has its place too - operating systems courses.

But to believe that it is a good idea to be teaching algorithms or fundamental concepts in assembler is utterly braindead. Functional languages are just so much better for learning this kind of stuff. And this is the stuff that computer *SCIENCE* is about.

What I find amazing is the number of fools who think that writing assembler makes them a programming god. The fact is that most of the time, you are far better off, optimisation wise, looking at your algorithms and data structures than messing at that level. Only if you know a small bit of code is messing you over, AND the compiler is doing something wrong, should you resort to assembler.

The other area where it is necessary is when you are working on a compiler (which I've done), a virtual machine or a dynamically translating emulator( which I've done.)

My post was a reaction to the grandparents assertion that all code in CS labs should be in "cross platform C". Thats totally fucking wrongheaded.

Pre-announced

[iJed]

Its amazing to see Apple actually pre-announce a product! This is virtually unheard of, espessially for something as important as the next gen iMac. It looks to me like this pre-announcement is the result of some terrible mistake in predicting when all parts (PowerPC 970FX maybe?) would be available.

Re:Pre-announced

[Bob[Bob]]

They say as much in their statement:

"We planned to have our next generation iMac ready by the time the inventory of current iMacs runs out in the next few weeks, but our planning was obviously less than perfect."

Quite candid, really.

Re:Pre-announced

[Deltan]

Well it sounds like it was only preannounced because they screwed up and were running out of supply on current iMacs. The alternative to not saying anything about your new product line is not very desirable, "we are no longer selling iMacs".

Re:Pre-announced

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Quite candid, really.

I must say, my esteem for Apple as a company raises each time they communicate "normally" (i.e. without going through heavy PR filtering). So few companies do it nowadays...

Re:Pre-announced

[dj245]

Its amazing to see Apple actually pre-announce a product!

Tis better to pre-announce than to paper launch. They could have said that you could buy them online now- then hide them on an obscure web page, charge an exhiborant amount of money (although that wouldn't be anything new) and then not send it until September.

Re:Pre-announced

[edhall]

Thinking about it, the announcement makes perfect sense. Usually pre-announcements have the effect of depressing sales as folks decide to wait for the upgraded version. That generally makes them a bad idea, but in this case it's exactly the results desired. It will help eke out the remaining inventory such that fewer people are left unhappy -- those that need the latest and greatest will wait, with the limited inventory going to those who can't wait.

-Ed

Re:Pre-announced

[SilentChris]

Or lack of communication. The silence over the recent security updates (and the resulting mocking of one-paragraph summaries Apple then decided to release) has lost a lot of people's respect.

They're luring UNIX geeks (like myself) then release updates with little information outside "read what others have said". This is not how open source or Sun does it with Solaris. Hell, it's not even how Microsoft does it.

Message to Steve: part of playing the "lets lure UNIX geeks "card is playing the WHOLE game. We're not satisfied with just the kernel being open and able to run a terminal. We want transparency, and we won't deploy Mac hardware en masse until we get it.

Re:Pre-announced

[Artemis]

RTFA, there IS no inventory to sell! You cannot buy an iMac from them now until they announce the new line. This will have no affect on their "remaining inventory", since it does not exist. It is simply a mistake on Apple's part that they did not have their new line ready when the supply of their current one was exhausted. All of this is straight from that same exact article, amazing.

Re:Pre-announced

[Bob[Bob]]

> We want transparency

Well, you must be grateful for Quartz Extreme, then, dude... ;-)

Re:Pre-announced

[Anonymous Coward]

If they are to use the G5, it is quite likely that it isn't the culprit for the delay. Here's why. What speed processor would they want to put into an iMac? My guess is that they would take a 1.8GHz G5 and under-clock it a little to 1.6GHz or even 1.5GHz to produce much less heat. This is still a big step up in performance from the current iMac but it won't dent PowerMac sales.

The reason that the G5 won't be in short supply at this frequency is because it is obviously in short supply at the 2GHz+ range. The way semiconductor manufacturing works is that either you get an acceptable number of functional dies (at any speed) per wafer or you throw the whole wafer out. The entire wafer is thrown out because the assumption is that some kind of process flaw occurred to the *entire* wafer and the fear is that the parts that actually work for now will fail in a little while.

Because they are getting some 2.5GHz chips and such (but not too many of them) means that obviously the wafers are producing functional chips but only a subset of these chips are sorting into the top speed bin. Obviously, this means that most of the chips must be slow. In fact, it is the majority of the chips that will be slow because speed distribution generally follows a Guassian distribution.

So what do you do with these slow chips? If you are Intel, you call them Celerons and you dump them on the market. If you are IBM, you get Apple to take these "slow" chips at a great price and dump them into some hot selling machine where the best performance isn't necessary. Otherwise, the cost that it takes to make the fast chips you really want would be prohibitively expensive.

My guess is that they either discovered a flaw in the motherboards, or the graphics chip they choose to use (perhaps as part of some highly integrated low power chipset designed by NVidia and manufactured by TSMC) was delayed due to manufacturing problems. Remember, the move to 90nm has been tough for all of the Fabs, not just IBM.

Re:Pre-announced

[sevensharpnine]

"We planned to have our next generation iMac ready by the time the inventory of current iMacs runs out in the next few weeks, but our planning was obviously less than perfect."

What makes you think this is anything less than PR filtering? A big part of Apple's PR strategy is the branding themselves as a friendly corporation vs. the evil Microsoft. Pound for pound, however, I suspect Apple spends just as much on PR as Microsoft does. Now this shouldn't count against Macs; I encourage everyone to make decisions based upon the available technology and individual needs. But if your new "respect" for Apple makes you more likely to buy a shiny new Mac, well, you're a tool.

Re:Pre-announced

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude if you NEED a completely open-source OS then you shouldn't be running OS X. If all you care about is the Mac "hardware" then run something else on it. It's kinda silly for Apple to completely open everything above Darwin. Especially considering how far ahead of MS they are now. Cut them some slack! They have to stay in business!

Re:Pre-announced

[TimTheFoolMan]

Hmmm...

There's a difference between "not taking new orders" and "no inventory to sell." They've basically announced that they've shut down the current production lines and are selling off existing inventory, while not taking orders for new systems.

This doesn't mean you can't walk into an Apple store and buy a shiny new iMac. It means if that store is out of inventory, you'll have to go to another store, or see if the store will do an inter-store transfer. (An exception being the Apple online store--they've probably stopped selling there to keep as many systems as possible in the retail channel.)

Did I miss the part where they announced that they've completely emptied the retail channel?

Tim

Re:Pre-announced

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah how was that insightful? It was WRONG. They stopped making the current iMac a while ago because they wanted it dried up now. And now it is dried up. Why did they do this? Because they were planning on annoucning the G5-iMac at WWDC but a huge last minute engineering problem had delayed the release by possibly months.

All we can do now is pray that they fix the issue sooner.

Re:Pre-announced

[Anonymous Coward]

The Apple (retail) Stores have plenty of iMac inventory. The announcment was intended in large part to make sure they aren't out of iMacs two months from now.

Before you chastize others about not reading carefully, you might consider the meaning of the word "inventory." You got it wrong.

Re:Pre-announced

[Graff]

The silence over the recent security updates (and the resulting mocking of one-paragraph summaries Apple then decided to release) has lost a lot of people's respect.

Oh you mean something like this incredibly detailed list of every security update ever? The one which lists the CVE IDs of the vulnerabilities and which links to the appropriate discussion of the problem?

Apple has provided this list for quite some time as you can see by looking at what was fixed. It only took me a few seconds to get from Apple's main page to locate this list.

The explanations of the security problems when you download the patches are left sparse deliberately because there are housewives, kids, grandparents, and other non-techs reading the explanations. If you had a diatribe on every vulnerability that was patched then you'll take the chance that the users might get scared off from patching just due to the geek factor required to read the update notes.

Apple does the smart thing and gives a small, easy to read blurb about the update in the download notes. Anyone who needs more in-depth information can easily find it at the Apple support webpages.

Re:Pre-announced

[Graff]

Oh, I also forgot that there is the Apple security announcement mailing list which also exists in archive form. The archive is password protected to slow harvesting of e-mail addresses but they tell you how to access it right in the password question, just enter archives as the user name and archives as the password.

Apple mails out a detailed announcement every time they release a patch or a fix for a vunerablility. Anyone can sign up with the mailing list to receive these timely announcements automatically.

Here's an example of the latest announcement:

Subject:
APPLE-SA-2004-06-07 Security Update 2004-06-07

From:
Apple Product Security

Date:
Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:05:56 -0700

APPLE-SA-2004-06-07 Security Update 2004-06-07

Description

Security Update 2004-06-07 delivers a number of security enhancements and is recommended for all Macintosh users. The purpose of this update is to increase security by alerting you when opening an application for the first time via document mappings or a web address (URL). For more details, including a description of the new alert dialog box, please see:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artn um=25785

Versions: Security Update 2004-06-07 is available for the following system versions:
* Mac OS X v10.3.4 "Panther"
* Mac OS X Server v10.3.4 "Panther"
* Mac OS X v10.2.8 "Jaguar"
* Mac OS X Server v10.2.8 "Jaguar"

The following components are updated:

Component: LaunchServices
CVE-ID: CAN-2004-0538
Impact: LaunchServices automatically registers applications, which could be used to cause the system to run unexpected applications.
Discussion: LaunchServices is a system component that discovers and opens applications. This system component has been modified to only open applications that have previously been explicitly run on the system. Attempts to run an application that has not previously been explicitly run will result in a user alert. Further information is available in http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=257 85

Component: DiskImageMounter
CVE-ID: No CVE ID has been reserved as this is only an additional preventative measure.
Impact: The disk:// URI type mounts an anonymous remote file system using the http protocol.
Discussion: The registration of the disk:// URI type is removed from the system as a preventative measure against attempts to automatically mount remote disk image file systems.

Component: Safari
CVE-ID: CAN-2004-0539
Impact: The "Show in Finder" button would open certain downloaded files, in some cases executing downloaded applications.
Discussion: The "Show in Finder" button will now reveal files in a Finder window and will no longer attempt to open them. This modification is only available for Mac OS X v10.3.4 "Panther" and Mac OS X Server v10.3.4 "Panther" systems as the issue does not apply to Mac OS X v10.2.8 "Jaguar" or Mac OS X Server v10.2.8 "Jaguar".

Component: Terminal
CVE-ID: Not applicable
Impact: Attempts to use a telnet:// URI with an alternate port number fail.
Discussion: A modification has been made to allow the specification of an alternate port number in a telnet:// URI. This restores functionality that was removed with the recent fix for CAN-2004-0485.

Re:Pre-announced

[DChristensen]

You've got your damn transparency! Haven't you seen the menus??

--Steve Jobs

Re:Pre-announced

[sjonke]

Also note that starting with the most recent security update, Apple has started including a link to the detailed list in the short descriptions provided in Software Update. Click the link and you are taking to the detailed info web page. They made it much easier to find the details.

Re:Pre-announced

[SilentChris]

That's exactly my point: they link to other sources of information and provide little information IT people value.

What degree of vulnerability does each security update affect (serious, critical, not that big a deal)? What's the attack vector? What are the workarounds? How do these changes affect other apps that may rely on them? Why do I have to rely on Apple's discussion forums for this information instead of hearing it from the company's mouth?

Re:Pre-announced

[SilentChris]

Again: attack surface, workarounds, app compatibility... where? Where is the information actual IT administrators need to deploy these to thousands of machines?

Re:Pre-announced

[Anonymous Coward]

Just run debian and dont worry about updating. It's so old the kiddies have moved on :)

Re:Pre-announced

[Chris Tucker]

CURSE my current lack of mod points!

Best laugh I've had for days!

Thanks!

Re:Pre-announced

[Graff]

What degree of vulnerability does each security update affect (serious, critical, not that big a deal)? What's the attack vector? What are the workarounds? How do these changes affect other apps that may rely on them?

If you look up the CVE name for the vulnerability at the CVE website you can find links to all this and more. Here's an example: CAN-2003-0020 is one of the Apache vulnerabilities that were fixed in Apple's Security Update 2004-05-03.

Name
CAN-2003-0020 (under review)

Description
Apache does not filter terminal escape sequences from its error logs, which could make it easier for attackers to insert those sequences into terminal emulators containing vulnerabilities related to escape sequences.

References
VULNWATCH:20030224 Terminal Emulator Security Issues
URL:http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives /vulnwatch/2003-q1/0093.html
BUGTRAQ:20030224 Terminal Emulator Security Issues
URL:http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtra q&m=104612710031920&w=2
XF:apache-esc-seq-injecti on(11412)
URL:http://www.iss.net/security_center/ static/11412.php

Phase
Proposed (20030317)

Votes
ACCEPT(2) Cole, Baker
MODIFY(1) Cox
NOOP(3) Wall, Green, Christey

Comments
CHANGE> [Cox changed vote from REVIEWING to MODIFY]
Cox> This issue affects Apache 1.3.27, Apache 2.0.45 and earlier,
as well as possibly later versions (since it's not fixed by
ASF yet)
Cox> ADDREF REDHAT:RHSA-2003:139
Christey> MANDRAKE:MDKSA-2003:050
(as suggested by Vincent Danen of Mandrake)
Christey> REDHAT:RHSA-2003:243
Christey> BUGTRAQ:20040330 TSLSA-2004-0017 - apache
URL:http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m= 108 066914830552&w=2
Christey> APPLE:APPLE-SA-2004-05-03
URL:http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m= 108 369640424244&w=2
Christey> BUGTRAQ:20040512 [OpenPKG-SA-2004.021] OpenPKG Security Advisory (apache)
URL:http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m= 108 437852004207&w=2
Christey> SLACKWARE:SSA:2004-133
URL:http://www.slackware.com/security/viewer.php? l=slackware-security&y=2004&m=slackware-security.5 29643
TRUSTIX:2004-0027
URL:http://www.trustix.org/errata/2004/0027
Christey> MANDRAKE:MDKSA-2004:046
URL:http://www.mandrakesecure.net/en/advisories/a dvisory.php?name=MDKSA-2004:046
Christey> BUGTRAQ:20040526 [ GLSA 200405-22 ] Apache 1.3: Multiple vulnerabilities
URL:http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m= 108 559521611694&w=2
Christey> HP:SSRT4717
URL:http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m= 108 731648532365&w=2

Yeah you might have to dig for some of the information but overall they direct you pretty much what you need to know.

Re:Pre-announced

[Bob[Bob]]

hey cool, man! you're a real gent, and no mistake! cheers!

Re:Pre-announced

[edhall]

They're still available, both at retailers (including Apple's own storefronts) and online (although Apple isn't selling them from their own online "store" anymore). No doubt retailers are limited to their existing allotment. But I'd have to think that Apple's announcement will help stretch out the remaining supply of units for a bit longer than if they said nothing.

Nonetheless, I agree that it's a bad situation for them to be in.

-Ed

Re:Pre-announced

[jbolden]

Who is deploying apple to thousands of desktops (with the exception of Apple itself)? Apple doesn't even really have a very good large corporate product, nor is it a target focus. They have:

a) An excellent small business solution
b) An excellent solution for Unix programmers who also need business productivity applications (this is the Unix geek market)
c) An excellent home solution
d) A focus on education

You point regarding Unix geeks is silly. Unix geeks don't need that level of detail for their own use and that is who apple is marketing too in terms of Unix features.

Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they decided that the current Design Style was just... shite! Back to large beige boxes that we can stack CDs on and arrange all your happy meal toys over!

Re:Think different

[A. Pizmo Clam]

I had one of the original Bondi Blue iMacs. While other people were praising its beauty, I thought it was kinda ugly. As a fashion statement, the blue translucent plastic seemed somehow akin to bell-bottom trousers and leisure suits. The periodic release of new machines with different color schemes seemed to support that view.

But it was a fine computer. The original iMac was a brave departure from the beige boxes we'd all become so accustomed to. The compact all-in-one design simplified things for people who don't want to invest a lot of time in figuring out how everything goes together. (You or I may feel unfulfilled with any computer we haven't built with our bare hands from raw sand, but there are plenty of folks who just want to use the thing.)

The iMac moved things forward in part by turning its back on a lot of legacy stuff. The iMac upset a lot of long-time Mac fanatics who were upset that they couldn't plug their old ADB and serial peripherals into the USB ports. Some people were aghast at the absence of the floppy drive. Now that Dell has embraced the idea of computers without floppy drives, I guess the iMac's work here is done.

Snif... Drat... I promised myself I wouldn't cry...

Re:Think different

[builderbob_nz]

Now that Dell has embraced the idea of computers without floppy drives, I guess the iMac's work here is done.

As a computer tech, I'm rather annoyed at this as I still find that floppy disks are the most convinent storage medium for the diagnosis/repair software I use. Yeah, yeah, I know this is slightly off-topic (and agree that floppies need to be replaced) but please remember that if something is taken away there needs to be a suitable substitute for it. Much like if Apple stops selling one generation of computers, there needs to be another generation to put on the shelves.

Unless, of course, they want to loss sales to people like me... hold on a moment... forget what I just said, Apple can stop selling iMacs if they wish.

Re:Think different

[BasilBrush]

As a computer tech, you seriously need to get yourself up to date. $40 buys you a USB flash drive with the space of 200 floppy disks on it. Floppies have been worthless pieces of junk for some years now.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't used a floppy on a personal machine in so long that I can't remember... Now for both Windows and Linux machines I use cheap USB drives to move stuff from work to home. Or I email it or scp it across. All my machines can boot from CD and it's much easier and more reliable to just burn a CD from a floppy image that contains lots of other utilities.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

As a computer tech, I'm rather annoyed at this as I still find that floppy disks are the most convinent storage medium for the diagnosis/repair software I use. Yeah, yeah, I know this is slightly off-topic (and agree that floppies need to be replaced) but please remember that if something is taken away there needs to be a suitable substitute for it.

It's called a "CD". Perhaps you've heard of them? If not, try here.

Re:Think different

[wideBlueSkies]

Please back this up by pointing us to instructions that show how to boot a PC from a USB drive into DOS and run a simple task such as repartitioning the hard drive.

Which drive in particular would allow this? Please tell us.

wbs.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Writer]

I think Apple was trying to stress the internet as a medium for transfering data rather than floppies when they released the iMac. They probably thought emailing attachments would work better than carrying floppies. I'm just assuming that's what the "i" stood for.

And they probably were trying to let market forces allow a larger capacity disc become a standard as well, like Zip discs or memory card readers, because 3.5" discs just didn't have enough capacity for a lot of things people needed. Without an established new standard, leaving USB ports available so users can add their choice of drive would seem the logical thing to do.

Re:Think different

[crawling_chaos]

Your Google is weak, grasshopper.

Re:Think different

[gaj]

Depending upon the age of your PC, any drive. Most PCs built in the last several years can boot from a USB device. Don't know if Macs can, but I'd assume so. I've configured my flash drive with bootable OSes before, both Linux and DOS ... mostly as a lark, as (with the exception of the %$@#$$! Intel 2100 wireless drivers) I've not had need of a rescue disk for years.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

You couldn't, of course. Not even on a Mac - which can boot from more varied media than a PC. You could just burn a CD though and use that. Far more convenient than a floppy. I only have a couple of floppies now - both for fixing ancient PCs. BootE Linux is on both (one is a backup).

Re:Think different

[gaj]

Must preview twice when posting sans caffeine.

s/with the exception of the Intel/with the exception of one time because of the Intel/

Re:Think different

[ottawanker]

Please back this up by pointing us to instructions that show how to boot a PC from a USB drive into DOS and run a simple task such as repartitioning the hard drive.

Which drive in particular would allow this? Please tell us.

Most of them. Theres even a HOW-TO on how to boot Linux from one. I assume DOS would be almost as trivial.

Re:Think different

[BasilBrush]

Don't be silly. The we're talking about PCs with no floppy, not without a CD drive. If you are the kind of tech that needs to boot to DOS, boot from CD. The point of the USB flash drive is that it's writable, and so allows you to do sneakernet operations.

Personally I use a Mac these days, it's bootable off the iPod plugged into the firewire port, so I don't need any more than that.

Re:Think different

[jcostantino]

What a waste of a USB drive if you're just going to boot off of it to repartition a drive.

Make a bootable CD, that's what I do. I have a CD with a bunch of DOS stuff that boots from a Windows 98 "recovery disk." It loads cd-rom drivers, copies some stuff to a ramdisk it sets up and then quits to the prompt. Then I can partition, ghost, format, test drives, install windows 98 (it's an old cd) and some other little things like zap track 0 if I want. The only problem I've ever had relating to not having a floppy drive to boot from has been trying to update the firmware on a hard drive for my laptop. The flash utility needs to write to the disk and it obviously can't do that with a CDRW. I actually just solved my own problem by executing it in the ramdisk :) there, problem solved!

Re:Think different

[Dogtanian]

Some people were aghast at the absence of the floppy drive. Now that Dell has embraced the idea of computers without floppy drives,

That doesn't mean shit; the original floppy-less iMac came out in *1998*. Now, the omission of the floppy drive could be justified nowadays (assuming you can boot from the USB key), but 1998 was a long time ago, and I think the decision was wrong at the time.

The fact that the majority of (original) iMacs I've seen had an external drive would seem to bear this out.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure... I have some problems with the CD-ROM drive, I'll just run some diagnostics. Insert DOS CD. CD-ROM drive doesn't work. I'll just run some diagnostics. Insert DOS CD...

Except for hardware problems, the floppy drive always works. And those are solved either by

A: blowing out the dust

B: replacing the floppy-drive, since it's so cheap anyway.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you are trapped in the stone ages. A CD-rom drive can be had off the shelf for approximately $15. A floppy drive is about the same. Unless a controller is fried (Which is just as likely with a floppy), you can solve your problems. Why, exactly do you need a DOS CD anyway? What sort of poor machine are you pumping life support into? I think it's time to put the old girl out to pasture.

Re:Think different

[BasilBrush]

Ah, so this is a system that just happens to have both a broken hard drive AND a a broken CD, not only that but you didn't buy a USB flash drive that allows booting. Not only that but you don;t have a bootable USB hard drive either because you are too tight to buy one. Blimey, what do you do in a situation where every single possible boot device except for floppy either doesn't work or you didn't buy one? In that hypothetical situation you will already have taken the lid off, so just take a floppy drive off the shelf and plug it in. It'll take you about a minute. You really don't need a floppy drive in every PC in the company for that rare situation.

You don't actually have a clue do you? And why did you switch to AC? Did you realise you were probably being clueless?

Re:Think different

[foidulus]

Knoppix
You can use linux disk partitioning tools to achieve the same thing, it's bootable off a cd without having to install anything, and well, it beats windows!

Re:Think different

[Slack3r78]

I'm a tech myself, and you come across as nothing short of clueless. Brand new CD-ROM drives cost a whole $15 these days, a floppy drive costs about $10. To me, that makes the cost of replacing a CD-ROM negligible in comparison.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

If Apple had removed the floppy drive in 2003, would you still have seen people using external floppy drive now? Anytime you have an abrupt change especially something that is ingrained, you'll see a period where people try to resist and adapt before giving over. The floppy issue would still have been the same now as it was in 1998. People would still have had stacks of floppies and needed a drive.

The removal of floppies from Apple's computers forced the industry to take note and provide alternatives. It forced the computer design to evolve. Dell is just behind the curve, that's all. It reminds me how Apple drove the USB adoption literally by forcing customers to use USB and forcing the manufacturers to make USB peripherals. For a smaller company, Apple sure can give the computer industry a kick in the butt although there are times when the industry kicks back (CD burner vs DVD burner).

Re:Think different

[DAldredge]

He is a repair tech, a large percentage of the systems he will be repairing my not be able to boot from USB..

Re:Think different

[AbRASiON]

Still to this day I need to use floppys.

I have Norton Ghost on my machine - latest version of it, when attempting to make a "ghost boot disk" it asks "wtf is going" and won't let me write to "J:" my 256mb USB 2 Lexar Jumpdrive.

Even if I switch the drive letter to A:

Sure this is a software flaw but unfortunately how it is - there IS still a use for the floppy here and there - hence me still owning one and continuing to own one until they are completely not needed.

Re:Think different

[AbRASiON]

I'm not aware of being able to WRITE to my CDRW's in DOS.

Nor am I aware of being able to boot from a CDRW easily without pissing about with alsorts of packages to make one bootable.

Also as per my last post - how many "would you like to make a bootable disk" applications from software companies STILL expect a floppy drive.

Yes, I do realise we should blame them - none the less that's how it is - there's definately still use for a floppy for most techs :(

Re:Think different

[ameoba]

More importantly...

How would you install Windows onto SATA hard-drives, hardware RAID or a new SCSI card?

You need to add drivers to recognize the devices and the installer can only read them off of floppies.

Re:Think different

[Dogtanian]

The floppy issue would still have been the same now as it was in 1998.

Nowadays we have USB key-'drives' and broadband is quite common, not to mention writable CDs (at a *cheap* price); we didn't then. I don't believe that Apple's omission of the floppy made much difference to the success of these.

I believe that the floppy is on its last legs because the 'carrot' of alternatives is finally covering the small but important niche floppy held (as mainstream storage it *was* obselete by '98, but it was still the best alternative for recovering a system/transferring moderately-sized Word files), not because of Apple's 'stick'. What was the real alternative at that time?

Dell is *not* behind the curve. I'd say they're pretty much *on* it, and Apple were trying way too hard to be modern back then.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

Besides this, at the time the iMac was released, an external USB SuperDrive (this was the 100MB floppy backwards compatible with 3.5" floppy type of SuperDrive, a competitor to ZIP, not a DVD-RAM/CDRW drive) cost $100. Adding a floppy drive to the iMac would have raised the purchase price by about $100.

So the engineers wisely decided that the person who needed the 3.5" disk could pay the $100 for it, and the person who didn't wouldn't have to -- a smart engineering tradeoff. (I wish the same people had given some thought to the hockey-puck mouse.)

In my own experience with PCs, the *only* time I use the 3.5" drive is to boot an OS when I'm installing -- and I only do that when I can't get a bootable CDROM image.

And Zip disks were a well-established standard by the time the iMac came out -- I had bought my first Zip drive in about 1995, and they were pretty common then. The iMac came out in 1998, at a time when Zip drives were common even in white-box commodity machines. And you could buy an external USB drive for them, too.

Re:Think different

[Anonymous Coward]

There is precisely one situation in which a floppy drive can save you a lot of work: When a BIOS flash goes wrong and the system doesn't start, most BIOSes contain boot code which will look for a flash image on a floppy in a disk drive attached to the good old fashioned floppy controller. If an image is found, it is written to the flash chip. After that, your computer can hopefully boot again.

Re:Think different

[Moofie]

And none of the original iMacs I've seen had an external drive, and my penis is bigger than yours, so my anecdote wins.

Nyaaah.

Re:Think different

[Fear the Clam]

The fact that the majority of (original) iMacs I've seen had an external drive would seem to bear this out.

At first I was kinda surprised by the iMacs without the floppies --- then I looked around and realized that I hadn't actually used one in over a year. By 1998, I was already using a Zip drive, CD, ftp, or e-mail for anything that I used to use a floppy for. Since then, the only time I've used a floppy drive at all was to retrieve old data before throwing the floppies away.

Re:Think different

[Moofie]

And, now I'm just guessing here, but they'll probably boot from floppy just fine.

Of course, if the computer's drive is formatted with NTFS, you're still fooked, but hey whatever.

Me? I haven't used floppies on my home computer since 1998. Somehow, I've muddled through.

Re:Think different

[SmittyTheBold]

The iMac moved things forward in part by turning its back on a lot of legacy stuff. ...
Now that Dell has embraced the idea of computers without floppy drives, I guess the iMac's work here is done.

And it only took them five years! Have we forgotten that the iMac has been out since summer 1998, making the end of legacy ports on Macs a six-year-old event? (I know the Blue & White G3s had ADB for a while later, but that was the only legacy port kept at all, IIRC. And it was only on the high-end machines)

Are there still serial and parallel ports? What about PS/2? At least ISA's been pretty well gone for a couple of years now.

The "PC 2001" spec called for the removal of all legacy devices, and most of them are still around. Then again, in our capitalist society I can see why. It's dirt cheap to keep those ports around, and everybody has devices to use them. Nobody wants to be the first company to say "screw you and your legacy hardware." They're all afraid of the potential loss of business.

Which goes to show one advantage Apple has: since they control 100% of the Mac market, they can dictate to that market much more forcefully than Intel, Microsoft, or Dell could on their own.

Hope they change the design...

[Anonymous Coward]

Though the swinging monitor is great, the lampshade look is getting a little tired.

OT, I know, but has anyone removed the monitor and stand to use the base as a headless computer? I inherited one with a dead LCD Apple refuses to repair, the cost of replacing it isn't worth it ($400 and up) and it works fine with an external display...

Re:Hope they change the design...

[OneDeeTenTee]

Now that's cool. I didn't know that the iMac had a video port on the back, I'll have to keep my eyes open for dead-screen iMacs.

And then I'll paint it to look like R2D2's head...

Re:Hope they change the design...

[jimbolaya]

"Hope they change the design"

Gee, do you think maybe they will?

Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

I know taste is a personal thing, but I never liked the design of the current iMacs. In fact, I think it's rather ugly. I liked the design of the Cube a lot better, and I suspect it would have sold better than the G4 iMacs if it was priced somewhat saner.

Re:Good riddance

[jellomizer]

But the cube didn't sell very well compared to the imac models.

Re:Good riddance

[nacturation]

But the cube didn't sell very well compared to the imac models.

Have you checked eBay lately? Perhaps it's the low supply, but G4 cubes are going for quite a hefty sum there. It's one computer which just about keeps its value constant.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

price had a lot to do with that. With current technology, and perhaps a slight increase in size, the cube could be a really nice little box suitable for an imac level machine.

Re:Good riddance

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe because they were priced $1799, $2299 and $2799 without monitor?

Re:Good riddance

[nfotxn]

The cube is a good machine but not without it's own issues as well. The "new" (soon to be old) iMac actually fixed a lot of the issues it had. For instance having the volume turned up on the USB speakers causes the power indicators to dim with the music. The power button on the monitor puts the computer to sleep. And the horizontally slot-loading drive tends to be prone to failure with certain types of CDs.

Not that the G4 Cube wasn't a really cool design. It's just that they definitely improved upon it and made it an AIO then branded it an iMac. Given the chronology it's safe to assume that's how the design process may have went.

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[random_culchie]

Your right though most of their innovation seems to be on the hardware end. You see alot of imacs in places where people want to be noticed. (mobile phone shops spring to mind).
Youve heard of hairdresser's cars, imacs are hair dressers computers..

Re:Apple faggots

[azzy]

> trolling is for fags and losers

Yes, yes it is.

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[paulhar]

And Windows is for real men?

"Blue screen, how I love thee"

Hovering displays

[nacturation]

In the education market, Apple has historically emphasized its iBook notebook PC and the eMac desktop machine rather than the iMac computer, which has a circular base and a flat-panel screen that hovers above it.

Last I checked, the iMac's flat panel was attached via a swing-arm to the circular base. Where can I find one with no arm where the LCD magically hovers above? Perhaps this is the new model in fall? The hoverMac?

Re:Hovering displays

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the new model will be the HooverMac. Doubles as a river dam.

Re:Hovering displays

[ozbird]

Nah, the HooverMac sucks.

Re:Hovering displays

[kimsh]

I thought the hooverMac had its base replaced with an electrolux Trilobite vacuum cleaner that would automatically clean your desk when you are away.

An interesting iMac case mod .....

Re:Hovering displays

[Anonymous Coward]

A mac with a Skirt???

Re:Hovering displays

[Dogtanian]

the HooverMac sucks

The hooverMac sucks, the hoverMac blows!- which is how it keeps that display in place.

Re:Hovering displays

[Genady]

I hear they wear women's clothes too. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Sony Ad

[funk_phenomenon]

Is it just me, or was the photo shown on the article the recently unveiled Sony Walkman music device?

Re:Sony Ad

[n0mad6]

Its not just you... yahoo has a tendancy to show "related" news pictures (in this case, a picture from a recent story in the "Technology" category) next to stories that don't have pictures of their own.

Re:In Open Source, there is no delay..

[Polkyb]

Like DNF? We have no choice but to wait, then...

Mabey

[dncsky1530]

I bought one of the flat panel iMacs the moment it was announced, about 2.5 years ago, and it still works great. The iMac was an incredible value, had an excellent screen, and a fast CPU. I know that sales have been slowing, and the design has been out there for about 3 years, but it is still has alot of potential, and is definately a good bargain.

On the other hand I can't wait to see the new iMacs (mabey i'll buy one), And 3 years is a long time for a computer design. Unless your talking about a PC where towers have been 'in' for over 10 years.

I would really like to know how this is going to affect the Apple resellers who would have a large inventory of iMacs which they would undoubtably have to lower the price on. And as we have seen, Apple is not always on good terms with its resellers

Re:Mabey

[LordBlavin]

Yes, but I hope that the "towers" do not fade into some dark horizon, I like them but I also like apple and I support the company, although the imacs are compact, I'd still like to see apple desing more desktops that use "towers"

Re:Mabey

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha Ha! Resellers have a huge inventory? Right... not when they stopped shipping the flat panel imacs 2 months ago.

Re:Mabey

[MasonMcD]

I bought one of the flat panel iMacs the moment it was announced, about 2.5 years ago, and it still works great.

I would hope so. Hell, my son is still using the Rev. B bondi blue iMac we got in late 1998. It's running Panther 10.3.4, and chugs right along with uptimes in months (when was the last software update that required a restart? I can't remember, but that was the last time).

Mostly for browsing and IM, but hey, apparently kids don't talk on the phone anymore these days.

Re:Mabey

[chrysrobyn]

I bought one of the flat panel iMacs the moment it was announced, about 2.5 years ago, and it still works great. The iMac was an incredible value, had an excellent screen, and a fast CPU

I'm glad your purchase made sense to you. Others may not feel the same way.

My former college roommate, and old Mac fiend from "back in the day" recently came to me and asked for my opinion on computers. When he and I met, I told him he could have my CLI when they pried it from my dead, calloused fingers. He saw me play with OS/2, NT 3.5x-4 and Linux. Since then, I've been impressed with Macs in terms of usability. Aforementioned friend is now a school teacher. I know what schoolteachers get paid, but I don't know his salary specifically. I know he can't afford to waste money. Macs have traditionally been strong in education, but his dad was pushing on him to get a $500 x86.

I ended up telling him he could buy a $500 x86, and it would probably last him a good 2 - 2.5 years. That's been my experience with bargain equipment. I encouraged him to think about an eMac, starting at $800 or an iBook, starting at $1100. They might last him 5 or 6 years. Either way, it's basically $200 per year, and he has to look at his budget and OS preferences.

At $200 per year, does it make more sense to spend it all up front, financing if necessary? Or does it make sense to blow half that now, take the risk that it might last longer than 2 years and then replace it then? If money is tight and your budget mandates a shortsighted vision, the Mac's value is incredible, alright, incredibly small. If he's got the money to spend all $1000 now, up front, and babies it, then yes, the Mac will provide a long term value and pay for itself.

Personally, I believe MacOS/X Panther (10.3 for the uninitiated) is worth the extra cash and will end up being a long term value. I have trouble using Windows these days, not because I'm not accustomed to it, but because OS/X does what I want, how I want it. I played OS roulette on countless operating systems, but my ball settled on OS/X for usability, power and stability on the desktop. Rhapsody through 10.2 were decent, but each needed fixing. 10.3, as near as I can tell, only needs work on the networking stack and the network browser.

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[mr i want to go home]

Apple can up with this idea many many many years ago, before desktop OS's had things like m u l t i t a s k i n g . It was a clever way to get around the limitations of not having a true multitasking environment. So they're actually re-implementing an old idea o f t h e i r o w n in response to the way people use their computers now (major specific apps supplemented by minor universal apps).

The only reasons you'll be modded down are for getting it wrong, and more importantly...being off-topic.

Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple has always been a pioneer when it comes to technology.. things like imac, emac, ipod and newton come to mind. Nevertheless, I think in light of pushing the envelope, Apple often refuses to consider some people don't like doing things different... and therefore alienate a good percentage of potential customers who would buy a product if they made one that was applicable to the way they do things TODAY.

A good example of this is the emac, which is a great computer but is overkill for the tasks of checking email and cruising the 'net, and too inflexible to do things like operate with external music devices (ie MOTU).

Apple currrently sells Emacs for $799. That's pretty cheap, but I think Apple highly underestimates what the public really wants. Most people want a computer that is expandable, and can accomodate things internally (or at least have the option to).

Most people have a monitor of sufficient size to meet their current needs, but have a computer that is too slow. Out of these, most would probably end up re-using their old monitor if it weren't for the fact that Dell generally bundles it in with the package.

I would gladly give up the CRT in the Emac for a cheap Macintosh tower that has slots for expansion, and places to put those extra hard drives.

My guess is many people would change to a mac if it was cheap enough (which I believe the Emac is appropriately priced), and eliminating the CRT wold more then likely offset the cost of adding slots and materials for the drive space.

This is just my two bits, but I believe both of those bits are on, so I guess that's my three bits. .

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

selling Emacs? The horror! What would Stallman say?

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Detritus]

Most people want a computer that is expandable, and can accomodate things internally (or at least have the option to).

Are you sure about that? Years ago, I read a study that said that most people never open their PCs, from purchase to disposal. They treat it as an appliance. I know people like that, they don't want to know what's inside the magic box and they don't care.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[argent]

The eMac may be a great computer, but it's not "pretty cheap". Oh, yes, $800 is historically cheap for a Mac but it's still a high price for an entry-level non-upgradable computer with a mediocre GPU and modest processor. The screen? Forget it, it's worthless... I doubt Apple's spending even $100 a pop on the eMac tube: it's a mediocre shadow mask, and there's no excuse for a premium priced computer to come with anything but a Trinitron-style arpeture-grill display.

Me, I'd give up the screen in the eMac for one extra drive bay and a "slab" case, at a $600-700 price tag. It'd still be a premium price, and Apple would save a bunch on shipping, but it'd get things down to where I could maybe talk the wife into letting me upgrade my Beige G3... and I could keep my nice cheap 17" pseudotron.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[mdarksbane]

I know all of one person who is not a CSE who has opened their computer to upgrade it. I know one more who has paid the cost of a new computer to upgrade theirs (when it made no sense).

No one else's has ever been opened unless I was visiting and wanted a peek inside.

And remember; you can't upgrade PCI or video in an imac. Aside from that, they're about as expandable as one of the towers, and they come with anything a *normal* user (ie, someone who doesn't play FPS or need SATA RAID) would need built-in.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[period3]

Apple currrently sells Emacs for $799. That's pretty cheap

Good deal, but you can get it much cheaper
here.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[SilentChris]

"Are you sure about that? Years ago, I read a study that said that most people never open their PCs, from purchase to disposal. They treat it as an appliance. I know people like that, they don't want to know what's inside the magic box and they don't care."

And guess what? It isn't right. There, I said it (and I work IT support practically all day). This willful ignorance of all things computer by people who use them has got to stop.

People don't purchase cars they can't open the hood. They know when the clothes drier is making funny noises they need to take a look inside and see what's causing the blockage. Yet when someone's Outlook toolbar "magically" disappears, they don't bother to look at all for the right-click menu they just used. They call support, we come over, show them for the 80th time how to turn menus on and off, then they immediately choose to forget it.

Why? I don't know, I'm not a psychologist. But having to explain to people things repeatedly is NOT how humans generally learn. You drive a car for the first time, you bump into things, you maybe get into an accident, it happens less and less as time progresses. Meanwhile, I have friends that KNOW they have viruses on their machine but WILLINGLY leave them there because "it's not affecting them" (although it's probably sending out a great deal of spam).

Enough is enough.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people want a computer that is expandable, and can accomodate things internally (or at least have the option to).

I'm sure you came to this conclusion through the highly reliable technique of assuming the general public shares your preferences.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

I could maybe talk the wife into letting me upgrade my Beige G3

I'm all for marriage as a partnership, but, dude, you gotta get your pants back.

There was a guy at my work who, when I mentioned the show "Battlebots" a couple years ago, he said, "My wife won't let me watch that." Huh? What kind of shrew disallows something as tame as Battlebots? We're not talking Soft Pr0n Nite on Skinemax. It's just s goofy show with occasionally clever robots. No wonder the divorce rate is so high.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[sith]

People don't purchase cars they can't open the hood. They know when the clothes drier is making funny noises they need to take a look inside and see what's causing the blockage.

I think you give people way too much credit. Most folks I know would just toss the clothes drier when it started making funny noises. Just like many people I know purchase a new computer when theirs simply needs a reinstall of windows.

*shrug*

Most people don't read slashdot.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[singleantler]

You're mixing up software and hardware there, and the two are very different.

Lots and lots of people never open their computers. For them, the iMac / eMac are fine, just like laptops are.

People do buy cars where they can't open the bonnet - Audi's A2 has a hatch where you can put oil and water which is separate from the main bonnet, so people don't have to open it. These days, so many engine parts are linked together via computer and are just unplugged and thrown out when they go wrong, there's not much point opening the bonnet anyway. Do I want a car where I can't open the bonnet? No, but then again, these cars are not aimed at me as a market.

Should someone fix their own computer that has got a virus? Yes. Should someone inside a company who's job is not computer support? Probably not, they might make a mess of something else when they think they're fixing it - I've seen that happen plenty of times. Should a computer be more resistent to viruses so the problem doesn't come up? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Having to teach people how to bring their menu up, or their task bar, or whatever, for the nth time is very annoying. Then again, if you do tech support, it's part of the job. This is partly why I got out of tech support and got in to making websites/software that were more usable - trying to fix the problem at source.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[evenparity]

The slashdot crowd is a bit too geeky for Apple's target audience.

The bulk of Apple's customers are not buying utility with a Mac. They are defining themselves through choosing the Apple brand: "I'm cool because my computer is made of brushed aluminum."

Apple has done a great job of making technology become a personal differentiator for MAINSTREAM markets.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Dogtanian]

Most folks I know would just toss the clothes drier when it started making funny noises.

Frankly, I'm not even sure that my flatmates know you're meant to clean the filter every time you use it.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Bearpaw]

And guess what? It isn't right. There, I said it (and I work IT support practically all day). This willful ignorance of all things computer by people who use them has got to stop.

I'd have to disagree with you here. I think knowing enough about computers to be comfy opening the case is optional. Or should be.

People don't purchase cars they can't open the hood. They know when the clothes drier is making funny noises they need to take a look inside and see what's causing the blockage.

Beyond adding gas and -- maybe -- changing the oil, I'm betting that most people take their car to a mechanic for maintenance.

I did build a PC once, and kept upgrading the hardware for years. But it was a hobby, very much like my Dad used to tinker with cars. Eventually I got tired of that hobby ... and I bought an iMac.

Yet when someone's Outlook toolbar "magically" disappears, they don't bother to look at all for the right-click menu they just used. They call support, we come over, show them for the 80th time how to turn menus on and off, then they immediately choose to forget it.

I think it's less "choosing to forget" than having different priorities about what's worth remembering. It may be hard to believe, but remembering details about using computers is not high on everyone's attention priority list.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[LtOcelot]

[T]here's no excuse for a premium priced computer to come with anything but a Trinitron-style arpeture-grill display.

I can think of two excuses:

1) ----------------

2) ----------------

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[argent]

The bulk of Apple's customers are not buying utility with a Mac.

I know quite a few people who want to buy a Mac simply because they're sick and tired of dealing with Microsoft annoyances like the virus-du-jour, but can't because they have two things you're probably unfamiliar with: a limited budget and working eyes. The limited budget is what makes the eMac attractive. The working eyes mean that they can go into a store and look at the crappy eMac monitor and the nice Dell-rebranded CTX Trinitron-clone on the next display.

There's nothing "geeky" about normal visual acuity. There's nothing "geeky" about wanting to get reasonable value for money. Dismissing these mainstream values as "geeky" makes you sound just the slightest bit out of touch with the mainstream yourself.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[hcdejong]

Rubbish. Every Mac user I know (including myself) uses Macs because they like the OS and/or the Macintosh concept in general better than Windows.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[kko]

We, IT workers, have an attitude problem.
Most people have not studied anything IT related. They are _not_supposed_ to know anything about _OUR_ job.
The users you support are probably doctors, nurses, brewers, cooks, accountants, etc., who want a _TOOL_ that just works. They don't want to learn anything about something that is not central to their occupations, because they don't have the time or interest to do so. Deal with it, it's your job.
Is it right that people don't care what's inside the magic box? I will ask you wether you know enough about your own body to operate on yourself or on someone else. Do you know how to operate a nuclear power plant? Do you play baseball like a pro? Can you cook a delicious (by _my_ standards) meal in under 30 minutes? Do you know how to make a movie? Can you repair an outboard boat engine? Do you know how to clean and zero a rifle? Have you manufactured your very own VLSI silicon? Have you brewed you very own dark ale? Built an X-Prize winning spaceship? Can you build a stealth plane? Do you race cars? Have you found the cure for cancer?
As you can probably see, you are not required to know all of this stuff. Nobody is required to. And there's lots of other stuff that it's okay to be ignorant about.
Yet, we, IT workers, think we know everything, and everybody else is an idiot. I wonder how we got so arrogant. I'd like to see you mechanic call you a dumbass next time you drag your car to the shop (OMFG!!! that idiot can't fix a simple automatic transmission!!!!). It's only fair.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[mattkime]

Have you looked at the eMac screen? Flat, bright, and sharp are three good descriptions for it. Its a top of the line CRT.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[YU Nicks NE Way]

Are you responding to the correct comment? He's saying exactly what you're saying: that Macs really aren't all that more useful then Windows boxes, and that they don't provide comparable value for the money. That's what "utility" means in that context.

The whole point of your argument is that if I go into a store looking for an entry level box (which is what the eMac is), I'm going to see that I really want a few more letters for my money. I'll buy an item from eMachines, not an eMac.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Midnight Thunder]

Apple currrently sells Emacs for $799. That's pretty cheap, but I think Apple highly underestimates what the public really wants. Most people want a computer that is expandable, and can accomodate things internally (or at least have the option to).

That is not the impression I get. Most people wouldn't consider opening up their Hi-Fi or DVD player to replace some circuitry in there. For most people this is what open up their computer seems like. Also for many people the next time they will seriously be upgrading their computer will be in the form of replacing their current computer.

If a computer has a Firewire (sustained transfer) connector or USB (burst transfer) Hi-Speed connector, then it has the sort of expandibility that people are comfortable with. I walked into a computer store the other day and was surprised to see the selection of external drives (DVD and HD) and their relatively low cost, when compared to internal drives.

The next market for many people is the portable. They aren't planning on opening up their computer and it has USB, Firewire and PCMCIA. So when it comes to expandibility it has it all. It also means that they can use it where ever they want. Add to this wireless networking and you can do it all. The only issue with portables is that they are generally more expensive, for lesser speced standard features than your desktops, but the margin is closing. Quite honestly I would be curious myself to see some figures on how the sales of portables and home PC compare in general.

Gamers and techies are a different breed in their needs and are more similar to guys wanting to improve on their high peformance car. So of course these people are going to want to be able to do more, but at the same time they also willing to spend time to achieve the knowledge to play with the inards and the technical details.

BTW, If Apple decided to use a CRT in the eMac, then it was of cost. CRT are still cheaper than an LCD of the same specs.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[argent]

Flat, yes.

Bright, yes, but not particularly so for a CRT.

Sharp, no.

It's a shadow mask, and not a particularly finely pitched one. Sitting at a normal viewing distance I can easily see the individual phosphor dotseven with my aging eyes. I have a relatively cheap (well under $200) CTX 17" display at home that's much sharper and crisper. It's a mediocre CRT at best... better than the iMac, but that's faint praise.

Apple has a real problem with their low end systems, when it comes to display quality.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[argent]

(1) I don't agree that Macs aren't that much more useful than Windows boxes.

(2) I don't agree that Mac buyers are only interested in style.

(3) The point to my argument is that there's a lot of people who want to buy Macs who don't... not because they don't see the advantages, but because the only Mac they can afford is one they couldn't stand to use.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't confuse "most people" with /. readership. /.-ters like to get under things, most people just want to use their computer, some even are afraid to use computers because they don't want to ruin expensive machines. True story: I had to convince someone that no, the computer won't explode if you select the wrong menu.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good post. I am not in the IT sector myself but I do know my way quite a bit administering computers. I think the reason we got so arrogant is because we (everyone, not just IT people) are conditioned to think that computers are complex systems. It began a long time ago, when people though computers could do anything and could do no wrong. I've had arguments before with people claiming that $Product is computerized and therefore the outcome must be right. Computers must be complex and requires intelligent people to operate.

Since we are familiar with computers, we must be intelligent and must be worshipped. Since others are not, they must be less intelligent and deserve our contempt. The attitude also extends a bit to another computer system, namely Macs. Macs are simpler and are designed to be used by novices. Therefore, Macs are not serious computers, they are toys. "Real IT" will not touch it.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can see the individual phosphor dots you're having a problem with the monitor being *TOO* sharp and crisp.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[SilentChris]

We're not talking about "simple automatic transmissions". We're talking about deleting one icon or moving one Word document into a folder by accident. Basic stuff that people can't even come close to grasping. I'm not saying people should know how to take their computer apart, but at least know where the POWER BUTTON is for God sakes.

You know why people don't bother: if they make a mistake with their car, they crash and die. If they make a mistake with their computer, Mr. IT comes over and fixes the booboos. Big mistake.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[YU Nicks NE Way]

How do you measure usefulness? Typically, by looking at how people respond to purchase decisions. So here we have an OS from a company with very high positive valence (Apple) competing against an OS from company with very high negative valence (Microsoft). More than that, the first OS is running on hardware provided by a supplier with a reputation for reliability and stylishness (Apple), and the second OS is running on hardware from a supplier with a reputation for lackluster quality (Dell, in your example, eMachines in mine). Yet people buy the second.

There's only one reason for that: the perceived usefulness -- the utility -- of the first box is lower. There are a bunch of reasons for that: perhaps the monitor sucks, perhaps OS X is unfamiliar and therefore less producting, perhaps the available application spectrum is too narrow...it doesn't matter why, the difference is there.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you know how to operate a nuclear power plant?

Ohhh... Memememememe.... Really!

Operating it isn't so hard... It's knowing what to do when an off nominal event occurs.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[evenparity]

Hmmmn. I don't know if you are trying to sarcastic, but I don't know anyone that is not unfamiliar with a limited budget or "working eyes."

I won't argue that some people will buy a Mac because they find them more functional. But what I am saying is that Apple is changing the way people purchase computers. Probably 99% of the computer market right now purchases on performance perceptions. But people are gradually beginning to see their computer purchases as "lifestyle purchases"--things that define them as a person

For the slashdot crowd, buying linux/UNIX/MIPS/whatever already is a lifestyle purchase, perhaps. But for most people, it is not. This is what I meant by saying that the slashdot crowd is different.

You can't walk into a bar and say, "My box runs Linux," and expect to get a date. But you can slap down your keys to a BMW, pick up your beer with a Rolex on your arm or JUST MAYBE mention you just bought an ipod to use with your i-mac and start a conversation. This is a major change in the marketing of computer equipment!

Hasn't anyone else noticed that girls like Macs? I have a Dell laptop running linux and Powerbook running OSX. Guess which one I take to the coffeeshop? Guess which one starts more conversations? And none of these people probably know much about operating systems.

When girls start talking to me because of my laptop --this is when I know that BRAND MATTERS.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[evenparity]

The other thing that I want to point out here is that this is where the Apple business model has the opportunity to shine:

By controlling both the hardware and the operating system, Apple is better positioned to create a "lifestyle product." No one really talks about the performance characteristics of watches anymore. Paying more than $20 for a watch these days rarely ever buys you more functionality. But it does buy you some intangible associations and affiliations. (It's shallow, perhaps, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter or we won't pay for it.)

As computing power becomes both more commoditized and more ubiqitous, buying technology brands will be less a guarantee of performance or quality, and more an act of self identity and association.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[argent]

Um, I'm not talking about the economic term "utility", I'm talking about the range of capabilities of the platform... practicality as opposed to style.

The OP claimed that mac users are interested in style rather than practicality, and I'm saying that Apple is making a mistake by putting such an impractical monitor on a box that could stay just as stylish without driving away the folks who *want* a Mac but can't afford a G5.

That is, his assertion is a self-fulfilling prophecy, not an innate characteristic of the product line.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[argent]

Um, this isn't 1984, it's 2004. What you're saying would have been news in 1984, when the first Mac came out, but today... well... the world is full of stylish computers: look at the Vaio, or the iPaq.

Heck, the iPaq is a MUCH better example of a computer that sells on style rather than function: it's a MUCH less practical design than the competing models (including HP's own Jornada), and by 2002 there was negligable performance difference between any of the Pocket PCs... but it's stylish.

Look, the bottom line is that there *is* a market for a low-end Macintosh that's actually practical, and there's no reason that Apple would need to scrimp on style to make one. Apple could spend another fifty bucks on the eMac's display, or they could produce a cool looking equally-non-expandible slab that didn't include a monitor.

They choose not to. They choose to sell Macs only to people for whom price is no object or for whom a good-looking shell is more important than a good-looking display. That doesn't mean that Mac users are only interested in style. It just means the ones that aren't haven't bothered to buy new Macs, because Apple's declined to provide an upgrade path they can afford.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[spankalee]

A good example of this is the emac, which is a great computer but is overkill for the tasks of checking email and cruising the 'net, and too inflexible to do things like operate with external music devices (ie MOTU).

What are you talking about? With USB and FireWire most of MOTU's "external music devices" work just fine. I use a MOTU 828mkII with my PowerBook, and it works great with an eMac. Same with their USB MIDI interfaces.

The only things that don't work are the PCI-424 based interfaces and there's really not much reason to use those over the FireWire versions. If you're one of the few people who does really need a PCI interface you should be using a PowerMac anyway.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[stretta]

A good example of this is the emac, which is a great computer but is overkill for the tasks of checking email and cruising the 'net, and too inflexible to do things like operate with external music devices (ie MOTU).

...you mean besides the half dozen USB MIDI interfaces, firewire audio interfaces like the 828mkII and 896HD? These all work fine with the eMac, not to mention Digital Performer and MachFive.

The only thing from MOTU that doesn't work are the three PCI audio interfaces for obvious reasons. However, this fact still does not keep you from enjoying 24-bit/192kHz audio recording, and zero latency monitoring with the 896HD.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Moofie]

Hmmm...I wonder if that's why Apple puts the power button right there on the keyboard. You know, it's almost like they talked to these inexperienced computer users and tried to figure out how to design a system that's easier for them to use...

Astounding possibility, that.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[CyberHippyRedux]

"A good example of this is the emac, which is a great computer but is overkill for the tasks of checking email and cruising the 'net, and too inflexible to do things like operate with external music devices (ie MOTU)."

Actually, MOTU has two firewire-based products that work great with the eMac - my landlord uses one with two MOTU 828's for his studio - he borrows my 828 when he needs more than 16 channels.

I use my 828, linked with an older 2408, with my Ti-Book 667 and a firewire drive for my mobile studio.

It's not as nice as having the PCI-card from MOTU, but it works fine for our needs.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Flatmates? Ahem, well you must be British, which would explain the lint screen problem. You're lucky to even be able to turn on a computer, being British. Most Brits I've known had a touch of the Downe syndrome, and weren't even able to tie their own shoes.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bonnet? Oh, that's cute, you English faggot.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

Off Nominal.

Cute phrase for a meltdown.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Dogtanian]

Flatmates? Ahem, well you must be British

No; they were involved in a mangling accident and came out half an inch thick.

You're lucky to even be able to turn on a computer, being British.

Yeah, that Turing guy sure was stupid when it came to computers.

Most Brits I've known had a touch of the Downe syndrome, and weren't even able to tie their own shoes.

Ah; I see you've met the Royal Family then. Yes, they *are* stupid; but they're also just f*****g lazy. I don't know where you come from and frankly I don't care; you can keep them, just so long as you promise not to send them back.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand most people don't, but most still want the option... This is mainly from memory (so if the percents aren't exactly right, don't shoot me. they are close though), but I believe 2 years ago Dell made the startling discovery that although less than 17 percent of all people had used their floppy drive, 80 percent still wanted one... And they still got rid of them because they felt they could sell memory sticks or something. "Now where do you want to go today? Nahh, You'll just go here, sorry."

Irrational as it sounds, the public may not always be right, but they'll pay more if you just simply give them what they want.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[x-caiver]

SilentChris says: People don't purchase cars they can't open the hood.

Tell that to Volvo. They recently had a team of 100 women design "a car for affluent, independent women." It happens to be a "car they can't open the hood" of.

Volvo says: There is no hood! "Honestly, the only time I open the bonnet (hood) on my car is when I want to fill up washer fluid," explained Tatiana Butovitsch, the project team's communications manager, "So we shifted the filling station for washer fluid to the side of the car, next to where you fill up fuel, and we closed the bonnet for good."

Feel free to read either of these links if you don't believe me: USA Today article, and Drivers.com article

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[jafac]

I used to think that way.

I had a Beige, that I upgraded over and over, ran OS X 10.3.3 on it, etc. But then apple took away support for old ROM machines, and I couldn't wait for X post Facto to update to fix the problem - I thought about buying older power macs. Then the G5 came out.

I was thinking wrong before. My Beige was $1500 when I bought it. It lasted me 7 years. The top end G5 was $3000 - compare to a top-end Dell. With reasonably equivalent capabilities, we're talking maybe $5000. And (hopefully) - this G5 lasts me as long as my Beige - perhpas longer. Will I be putting $500 upgrades on the G5 tower? Who knows? I'm already spending money on things like flash card readers, external firewire hard drives, things like that. But still - the top-end G5, for me - is a VERY thrifty deal - when you factor in longevity, price-performance, etc. I just have to pray that Jobs doesn't obsolete my hardware through software upgrades. When that happens, maybe it's Linux-time. (My Beige is now running Yellowdog.)

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[SilentChris]

Right. Have you ever seen a Mac user try to figure out what that button is for? I have. Generally, they know where the power button is on the tower. I've seen people literally point to both and tell me it's not the same thing. I've also seen new Mac users push it and get a shutdown request, thinking they "triggered a virus". It's NOT obvious to everyone.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[TClevenger]

In the company I work for, all positions require a knowledge of Windows 2000 and office productivity applications, including Word, Excel and Outlook. This includes the sales staff. I am required to have the skills requisite to my job description, and so should the people whom I am tasked to help.

Thus, I have no patience for people who don't know how to start up and shut down a computer, or who continuously mangle their computer because they can't understand spoken or written instructions.

Re:Macintosh needs to go back to the future.

[Anonymous Coward]

The stupid thing about this is that it prevents jump-starting. Otherwise, though, it's not such a bad idea.

Reason for delay

[Big Nothing]

This official pressrelease just in from Apple Headquarters:

"We regret to announce this delay in the release of the new iMac. The reason for this delay is that we are close to developing a mouse with MORE THAN ONE BUTTON! Although we know that many people are eagerly awaiting the new iMac we believe that most users, when introduced to a multi-button mouse, will agree that it was worth the delay."

Re:Reason for delay

[Anonymous Writer]

The reason for this delay is that we are close to developing a mouse with MORE THAN ONE BUTTON!

There are modifications to the mouse Apple may be using. One was previously mentioned on Slashdot, and another was mentioned in the Register. They involve integrating scrolling methods that work similar to a scroll wheel.

Re:HELP I need somebody

[Anonymous Coward]

Try xandros, its free and you'll never see that problem again (unless you want to re-visit it with wine).

The Platform is not the Technology

[droleary]

I'm not sure how valid this thought is but it would seem that using Apple products in a school (talked about in the article) setting would pidgeon hole students into a very limited sector of the market.

That is moronic, and yet oddly it is used by school districts all the time to put a Windows monoculture in place. Think about it: what system could possibly be used that isn't totally outdated by the time kids graduate in 5 years? Even if you gave them expert-level training on Windows XP, Microsoft's defacto standard that enjoys a monopoly position, that "education" is down the drain when Longhorn ships. The same is true of any non-monopoly system, too. The pigeon hole playing field is pretty level.

I would have loved being able to choose to work on a platform of my choosing instead of being forced into one thing.

Kids don't know shit. Platforms of their "own choosing" are video game consoles. Teachers aren't there to follow the students' instruction; it's the other way around. What school administration needs to go with is a computer that will build a technology base for the students without causing the teachers a lot of headaches. That neither describes Windows nor Linux.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[Daengbo]

With Longhorn being continually pushed back Duke-Nukem-style, XP may very well still be the business standard in 5 years.

I do agree with the general tone of your post, however.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[michaeldot]

Precisely. And anyway, if you do want to give the kids exposure to what Windows will be like in 5 years, showing them Mac OS now is an excellent way to do it.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[Refrag]

Computers in school aren't there to teach children how to use computers. They're there as a learning aid.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[1u3hr]

That is moronic, and yet oddly it is used by school districts all the time to put a Windows monoculture in place. Think about it: what system could possibly be used that isn't totally outdated by the time kids graduate in 5 years?

I learnt on Unix Sustem V at University in about 1980. Most of that is still applicable, in Linux and other work-alikes. Just don't have to wait overnight for my 20-line SQL job to run as in the olden times. Yay for the *nix monoculture.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[dochood]

That is moronic, and yet oddly it is used by school districts all the time to put a Windows monoculture in place. Think about it: what system could possibly be used that isn't totally outdated by the time kids graduate in 5 years?

Oh, I dunno. XP won't be outdated, because Longhorn won't be out by then!


dochood

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[JavaLord]

That is moronic, and yet oddly it is used by school districts all the time to put a Windows monoculture in place. Think about it: what system could possibly be used that isn't totally outdated by the time kids graduate in 5 years? Even if you gave them expert-level training on Windows XP, Microsoft's defacto standard that enjoys a monopoly position, that "education" is down the drain when Longhorn ships.

Not really. If you gave a student "expert" level training on Windows 2000, they were fine with XP. Heck, if you gave a student expert level training with 98 or 95, they just have to learn the new changes. How to do things within the gui is the same. It really depends what you are talking about. If you are talking about systems administrators, that is a different story.

What school administration needs to go with is a computer that will build a technology base for the students without causing the teachers a lot of headaches. That neither describes Windows nor Linux.

Nor Mac. I work at a university that uses almost all apple products with a few unix/windows servers thrown in to communicate with other systems that wont work with macs.

We still have our share of problems, it's not like mac is the utopia many zealots make it out to be. Nor is it a "coders paradise". I can tell you this since I spend 95% of my time coding for the Mac platform (The other 5% reading slashdot). The one big advantage of the mac platform is we don't run into the virus scares every month that windows admins run into. They do of course effect those few windows machines we have.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[Beer_Smurf]

" Oh, I dunno. XP won't be outdated, because Longhorn won't be out by then! " Funny, I thought XP was already outdated.

Re:The Platform is not the Technology

[Anonymous Coward]

I am insulted i could care less about video games and what causes me the most annoyances is that everything is locked down so the students that know how to fix what ever is bugging them cant fix it

If Microsoft did it...

[caitsith01]

Yeah, yeah, someone says it every time. But seriously, if a company like MS did this, the same people who I see here calling this a 'legitimate business tactic' and 'good marketing' would be calling it a shallow, greedy attempt to abuse market power.

Apple pulls this same stunt, time after time: witholding products to pimp the last few dollars out of the last model and then creating rabid demand by limiting supply artificially for a few months, then launching the new version at inflated prices. Why is it acceptable from them, but no-one else? Why do articles about Apple never have the overtones of shady dealings, corruptions, and victimisation of consumers that ANY article about MS is GUARANTEED to have?

I am no fan of MS's business practices. What makes me different (think different?) to a lot of people who will gushingly post in this thread is that I am no fan of Apple's practices either. Look at yourselves - you're barracking for a COMPANY for god's sake. The money still goes to their shareholders, and getting as much of it as possible is still their #1 objective. Fawning adulation just makes it so much easier.

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Steve is God. Bill Gates is the antichrist.

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[node 3]

Yeah, yeah, someone says it every time. But seriously, if a company like MS did this, the same people who I see here calling this a 'legitimate business tactic' and 'good marketing' would be calling it a shallow, greedy attempt to abuse market power.

No, I'm fairly sure a lot of slashdotters would rejoice if Microsoft were to delay a product until it's truly ready. Throw in the discontinuation of the current product as well and you've got the ingredients for the declaration of a bonafide Open Source holiday.

On a serious note, I think you've fallen into the trap of thinking the specific action is what people object to. Nobody really cares about integrating a browser into the OS (although the way MS did it, technologically, was a big screw-up--but that confuses the issue, there are many instances (WebKit on OS X, Konqeror on KDE) where it's been done right). It's not the action, it's the ultimate effect the action has on the user that people really are fed up with.

Which brings us back to the topic at hand. What is the effect of Apple's announcement? Media buzz? Big deal, who cares. It doesn't quash Dell or IBM by locking them out of a market, it doesn't pull the rug out from under the consumer. In fact, it's the result of a screw up at Apple, and they're afraid of an already slow and, to some, stale product continuing to get ever more slow and stale. They've fessed up, and humbled themselves before the consumer. What they've done is take a bad situation and do the right thing about it.

This is a good thing, and if MS did it, I, for one, would find it refreshing. Sadly, MS rarely does the right thing, so I have to look to Apple (and, for other but somewhat similar reasons, IBM) for a company that I can feel good about dealing with--that the persuit of money doesn't corrupt everything it touches, as it so often seems to do (such as you see with the RIAA, MS, and Sony's ATRAC players).

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[Anonymous Coward]

There used to be this computer company way back. At one time they had a pretty good product. Then they started announcing their new machines. People stopped buying their existing product, ripping out the funding for the development of the new product. Pretty soon they went out of business.

When Microsoft announces a product it's almost invariably to deflate enthusiasm for a competing product. "Yeah, we got that. It'll be out real soon now. Don't buy their stuff."

So Apple does almost exactly opposite what M$ does and they're evil? And they do precisely what's good business practice and they're greedy?

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft mainly produces software whereas Apple is still mainly a computer hardware company. So you're comparing apples and viruses;-)

"launching the new version at inflated prices." Did you know that profit margins on MS software are much higher than on anything Apple can make/program? Now who is profiteering?

"Why do articles about Apple never have the overtones of shady dealings, corruptions, and victimisation of consumers that ANY article about MS is GUARANTEED to have?" An old cliché will answer this: "No smoke without fire..."

By the way, I do not consider losing a quarter worth of sales in the order of over 200'000 iMacs as being good marketing. I use the word catastrophic planning.

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[KZigurs]

This is not an abusing policy - this is totally acceptable and normal behaviour from any company everywhere. We call it a greedy microsoft approach, because, let's admit it, everyone here somehow feels the urge to say that anything that microsoft does, but forgive Apple, because noone here, I suspect, don't wan't to see Apple going under the water again. Right?

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's saying this is a good thing? This was a mistake, and Apple will suffer some lost orders for the incoming school year. As I write this, AAPL stock price is down $2/share.

Re:If Microsoft did it...

[viggen9]

maybe because Apple is the underdog

Re:Tragic Disaster

[Anonymous Coward]

You can find everything you need to fix it at

this website.

Money to Shareholders?

[Riturno]

Perhaps you didn't RTFA? There needs to be products to sell in order for the shareholders to benefit.

In fact most investors noticed this and the stock price has gone down in afterhours trading.

How does "money still go the the shareholders" if there is nothing to sell? While "getting as much of it as possible is still their #1 objective", delaying a product revision with no inventory in the pipeline does nothing to forward profits or consumer goodwill.

Re:Money to Shareholders?

[BigBir3d]

And it is going down again this morning ($0.74 last I saw).

Re:Money to Shareholders?

[cellocgw]

Apple is down, but the whole market tanked yesterday and today. Take that overall "drag" off and Apple is down a relatively small amount.

About time they give heads-up

[NeedleSurfer]

Apple as been a very secretive company in its past, which is absolutely bad if you wanna get in the entreprise market which Apple has now started to try. Even the media market can't deal with secrecy anymore, it's fun to be surprised but it might cost you a lot by realizing the new product fits way better than the old for less money.

Anyway, thing is, Apple should always do this, maybe not a year in advance but a few month is good, let's hope this isn't just a reaction to a problem but the beginning of a new attitude...

Re:About time they give heads-up

[BasilBrush]

You are right, they need to preannounce for enterprise products. However, there is no incentive to preannounce for consumer models. All that achieves is loss of sales from people who postpone their purchases.

Re:About time they give heads-up

[FiveArmies]

>>> You are right, they need to preannounce for enterprise products. However, there is no incentive to preannounce for consumer models. All that achieves is loss of sales from people who postpone their purchases. Apple is such a non-factor in the enterprise arena that the attempt to grow in that area could change the marketing strategy of the company. Historically, the method Apple uses to generate hype, and get people to buy iMacs, iPods, etc when they normally wouldn't, is directly in conflict with enterprise computing and purchases. I don't see how the two could possibly fit together. They need to decide one way or the other, and I can't see them neglecting the consumer side...

Re:About time they give heads-up

[BasilBrush]

The two don't have to fit together. Enterprise (XServe and G5) and consumer (iMac, eMac, iPod) are quite separate. There's no rule that they need to follow the same announcement policy for both. In fact if you've actually been following press releases for the last couple of years you'll have already seen these two different approaches in action already.

No more 15inch iMacs.

[ITR81]

The reason I know because about 10 days ago I ordered a 15inch iMac for my biz. but a couple days later Apple sends me an email informing me I've been upgraded to a 17inch iMac. So right now only 17 and 20inch iMacs are in inventory, but I'm sure you can find some more at say CompUSA and Apple Stores and Apple resellers.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[hattig]

Free Upgrade? Interesting ... very interesting ...

Me? I want a Mac, but I have spare monitors lying around already. I just want a Mac ... with space for standard equipment (3.5" HDs, memory, AGP slot + card for upgradeability, PCI slot or 2) and no monitor .. but I don't want to pay over the top for a PowerMac with dual processors and so on.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you have to pay for the 17" price difference? Just wondering if they are now basically selling 17" iMac's for the price of a 15".

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[Refrag]

This'll meet your requirements.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[BigBir3d]

$1299 for something that was replaced over a year ago!?!? I am thinking that is a serious rip-off.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[Refrag]

Here is his list of requirements:

I just want a Mac - CHECK
with space for standard equipment - CHECK
3.5" HDs - CHECK
memory - CHECK
AGP slot + card for upgradeability - CHECK
PCI slot or 2 - CHECK
no monitor - CHECK
I don't want to pay over the top for a PowerMac with dual processors and so on - CHECK

Just because you say it was replaced, doesn't mean it doesn't fit his needs.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[BigBir3d]

I don't want to pay over the top for a PowerMac with dual processors and so on - CHECK

That is only met by the fact that it is a single processor machine. They would still be paying over the top for what they are getting. $799 for an eMac with same processor in it (RAM and hdd upgrades are cheap - don't buy from Apple). Tower form factor is not worth $500 to anybody, IMNSHO.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[ITR81]

No price increase for the 17inch iMac. We are using it as our POS(point of sale) machine.

Re:No more 15inch iMacs.

[Refrag]

Price is always very subjective.

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[builderbob_nz]

And Windows is for real men?

{at the risk of being flamed}

I guess it takes a real man to step where a Linux-type-geek fears to tread...

{disclaimer: I do use Linux also}

No wonder Ashcroft treads lightly.

[MisterSquid]

At least Microsoft tends to buy the companies whose technology it wants,[. . . .]

I didn't know Microsoft owned Netscape! What the heck! Where does the DOJ get off on taking Microsoft to court for killing a company it already owned?!?!

Re:No wonder Ashcroft treads lightly.

[CountBrass]

Yeah and tell that to Stac, whose disc compression software Microsoft literally (not just the idea, the actual code) stole.

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[notthepainter]

Buy a .mac account, download Open Office. Convert the documents to PDF by opening them in Open Office then printing to PDF. Then publish a homepage with your .mac account.

No programming, nothing to buy but the web space.

Cool project, go for it.

Apple sells emacs for $799!

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, that's $100 more than the leading brand! SCO really is a bargain!

Re:Mabey [sic]

[jimbolaya]

I would really like to know how this is going to affect the Apple resellers who would have a large inventory of iMacs which they would undoubtably have to lower the price on.

Well, if Apple's flat out of iMacs for at least two full months, my guess is whatever little inventory is out there on the market shouldn't have that much difficulty finding happy new owners who don't want to wait 'till September.

Black isn't patented is it?

[chris_sawtell]

Even in these interesting times, I don't think Big Blue can have a patent on the colour of a portable computer. The white is pristine for a moment or two. Then you start to use the dratted machine and you get hopelessly dazelled by the white. A few months after that it gets a few inevitable scratches which get filled with dirt and it looks, frankly, scruffy, cheap, and nasty. With that shiny surface they slip out of your grasp so easily too. Yes, I do know. I've seen them, and used them, in an educational setting.

Please Steve, CAN I HAVE A MATTE BLACK ONE?
Sorry to shout but you didn't hear last time I asked.

Re:Black isn't patented is it?

[nagora]

Sorry to shout but you didn't hear last time I asked.

He made that nice black NeXT cube way back when. Nobody much bought it so perhaps he reckons it's bad luck!

TWW

Re:Black isn't patented is it?

[toganet]

But then you wouldn't want to buy a new one as soon...

Seriously, Apple markets to romantics (Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance-style, not Harlequin). These a folks who are buying an image, and are more concerned with the way the machine looks than how it performs. So, make the machine white, it gets dirty faster, and needs to be replaced sooner, meaning more $$ for Apple.

Now, not everyone who uses a Mac is a romantic -- we get the benefits of the quality behind the image, but we are not marketed to directly.

Long story short -- I want mine CHARCOAL GRAY!!

(Or, I guess I could break out some paint.)

Re:Black isn't patented is it?

[Graff]

I don't think Big Blue can have a patent on the colour of a portable computer...Please Steve, CAN I HAVE A MATTE BLACK ONE?

Sure you can, just look right here for the perfect solution!

Re:Black isn't patented is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't want black either. The scratches show up almost as easily, and the dust stands out like you wouldn't believe. If the case has any texture at all, it's virutally impossible to get all of the dust off. Also, god forbid you touch your case, the dust will stick to the fingerprints, and that part of your case will never look quite the same as the rest again. On top of that, you'll be paying a $10+ premium to get matching components.

There's a reason that beige has been the standard color in computer components for as long as it has. It doesn't have the same issues with scratches that white has, the dust blends in for quite a while, and the beige ages well since all plastics discolor (yellowish) with age.

Re:Black isn't patented is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

...hey, if you don't mind sticking with OS9, you can't do much better than a beautiful wallstreet powerbook...the dirt-cheap peripherals and applications can't be beat, and maxed out upgrades absolutely scream through nineties-era software...

Re:Black isn't patented is it?

[Kiryat Malachi]

Sure you can. It's called a Pismo, and with enough memory does just fine on OS X as well.

Oh...and one more thing

[chia_monkey]

I know I know! Just imagine, if they aren't saving the new iMac for Steve's "Oh, and one more thing" end-of-keynote surprise, I wonder what kind of munty goodness he'll unveil now. The wait is killing me!

Re:Oh...and one more thing

[tbone1]

Hm, maybe the new iMac was going to be the "one more thing" at the WWDC this week. Pure speculation, of course, but it would fit.

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[donsaklad]

Thank you !

How could it be done automatically on an iMac OS X 10.3.4 ?...

Regrettably every public notice received by email would have to be done individually.

Obligatory Prediction

[be951]

Surely these delays are a death knell for Apple. It is only a matter of time before they go under. 2005 will be the year that Apple dies. If not then, definitely by 2027 (or very soon after that!).

Re:Obligatory Prediction

[justforaday]

you forgot to use the word "beleaguered" in there...

Re:Obligatory Prediction

[tntguy]

Since they're doing *NIX now, it'll be 2038.

Re:Obligatory Prediction

[Mr. Peabody]

Nah. Why do you think the G5 is 64-bit? They just have to replace all their G4's by 2038 (which seems to be posing a problem right now....).

(Written on a TiBook G4 which I'm really wishing was a G5 right now.)

Re:Brain Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

If your CS lab is forcing you to code in Windows, they're doing something wrong. You should be coding platform-independant C, which you sure as heck won't be getting on Windows (unless you're using a godawful DOS prompt).

What are you talking about? What does developing from the cmd shell have to do with what type of code you can write? You can write code that's just as portable in Windows as pretty much any other platform at the level that portability is reasonably maintainable (i.e. no gui's). Unless you're definition of portable means "*nix" of course.

Plus what the hell difference does it make what platform you're writing in (even notwithstanding the fact that the guys lab is using the same OS that is significantly more likely to land that person a job), the point is to learn how to code. You talk about platform independence, then you start spouting off about restricting the platform (for dubious technical reasons).

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[donsaklad]

Thank you !

How could it be done automatically on an iMac OS X 10.3.4 ?...

Regrettably every public notice received by email would have to be done individually with that method.

Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 buttons

[michaeldot]

And even if it did have three buttons, many people including me still wouldn't want to use an Apple bundled mouse. They're never going to equal a good quality Logitech - the margins couldn't handle the manufacturing overhead.

With a bit of logic, a one-button really is the best one-size-fits-all for Apple:

Many long time Mac owners do actually like one button mice, and/or not having to right-click the interface.

Those that want the extra buttons / scrollwheel / finger massager can and will buy their own.

Bundled mice are always cheap to manufacture, discerning buyers will want better than Apple needs to spend to keep the price where it is.

A lowest common denominator of one button encourages developers not to rely on right-clicking to drive their software.

Right-clicking should not be an essential means of driving an interface. It is under Windows, it is not under Mac OS.

One button mice help keep it that way.

Conclusion: the one button Mac mouse is here to stay, and it is better that way, even though many of us throw it away.

my prediction about the new design

[adpowers]

I think I have an idea of what the new design will be like, assuming they go for a whole new look. Remember what they did with the PowerMacs last year at WWDC and the monitors this year at WWDC (and last year with the finder). That's right! The next iMac is going to be brushed metal. Is this a fact? Hell no. Does it sound reasonable by extrapolating their current design patters? Sure... why not. Plus, it is the most interesting thing I can come up with at 04:50 in the morning.

Andrew

Re:my prediction about the new design

[BigBir3d]

Brushed metal machinery and software interface... ick. And my guess in the iMac? Price of stainless steel (nickel specifically) has gone up massively in the past 6 months; if their vendors have increased the pricing and Apple is selling the machine for the same prices, their margins have tumbled as of late. Great idea making it worse with the new line of monitors too.

Re:my prediction about the new design

[BigBir3d]

scratch that stainless crap... Al-book. duh!

Re:my prediction about the new design

[RefriedBean]

It's the Powermac/Powerbook computers that are brushed metal,, the iMac/iBook ones are usualy plastic.

Re:my prediction about the new design

[aceadean]

Speaking of which... Where's my brushed metal full-sized ipod? with a removeable,replaceable battery. Anyone? Anyone? Beuler?

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[EverLurking]

Yeah, but there isn't anything keeping someone from using ANY 3rd party mouse as the scroll wheels and 2nd button are recognized out of the box for USB mice.

If you want to keep the Apple "look" to your mouse, you could always get this one: http://macmice.com/themouse.html

DaveC

Clearing out old inventory?

[SenorCitizen]

The Inquirer seems to think that the delay in the introduction of the new iMac is because Apple wants to clear out old inventory first, and that "people haven't been buying enough old iMacs".

Does anybody know where they got their ideas from? Their point doesn't seem all that valid to me - why would Apple stop taking orders if they wanted to get rid of a mountain of iMacs?

Re:Clearing out old inventory?

[adzoox]

It isn't true at all, if you go through their 10K report you'll see that they hold about 16-18 days worth of inventory.

The average person doesn't even keep up with release news. None of my 200 clients or so had even heard that there was a World Wide Developer Conference or that Apple had introduced new displays.

The real reason is supposedly two fold.

IBM is JUST NOW catching up with demand on PowerMacs for the G5. This computer will most likely be a G5. Demand is expected be met within the next few days to a week and then production in Taiwan on the new design iMac (most likely with a G5 but definitely with an IBM chip) will begin.

We'll most likely see 1.6 1.8 and 2.0 single versions - the iMac will become Apple's single processor line and the Pro line will be it's dual processor line. As you can imagine, that's a lot of chips to produce.

Apple is changing it's patterns, instead of building demand only to not ship and customers losing interest, they are building interest THEN shipping on time. This has pretty much been on the advice of IBM - and after the intro of 2.5 Ghz G5s and the backtrack on 3Ghz.

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[gekhond]

tr -d '\000' | tr '\227\007\221\222\223\224' "\-\|\`\'\"\"" | strings | perl -p -e's/[\n\r]/\n
\n/;' -e 's/\|\|/\n\n/g;' -e's/\|/ \| /g;' | fmt | less

This is a nasty kludge, lots of junk included, but it helps to at least capture the jist of the document.

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[notthepainter]

Download Open Office and see if it is Apple-scriptable. If it is, then a small amount of programming would be all you need.

Re:Apple faggots

[Anonymous Coward]

trolling is for fags and losers

That explains why you are doing it...

A sunflower inspired Jonathan Ive's iMac 2 design:

[michaeldot]

...which may explain why Jon was last seen wandering around Steve Jobs' vegetable patch muttering "I know we've got to ship, but all I can come up with is these damn broccoli sticks."

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[Sunnan]

Much of what you write makes sense (I like a one-button mouse, myself) except for one thing: the apple optical mice aren't exactly cheap.

Aluminum case iMac?

[Anonymous Writer]

It seems Apple has been changing their entire product line so that they all have aluminum casing. They changed the iBooks so that they had them. Then the Power Mac G5 had one. The iPod minis have them. The new displays all have them. Maybe they're going to change the iMac casing as well.

Re:Aluminum case iMac?

[filmsmith]

Or, you could save people a little time and link directly to the displays themselves.

I'll never understand this linking to Slashdot articles that only refers to someplace else. Especially on news items!

fs

Re:Aluminum case iMac?

[Anonymous Writer]

If it's already been submitted as a story on Slashdot, sometimes there's more information and other relevant links on the Slashdot page. It is also just a courtesy to give credit to whomever submitted the story as a reference. For really old stories, sometimes sites change or go down, so links to external pages can be broken and all you have is the information in the previous slashdot story. It maintains story thread integrity for archival purposes. News and reference sites do this as well, placing links in their articles to other related articles on their site.

Re:Aluminum case iMac?

[Anonymous Writer]

How did this get modded Offtopic? The iMac has gone through so many appearance changes, and speculating an upcoming release of a new iMac may have one isn't off-topic!

Re:Aluminum case iMac?

[filmsmith]

Granted.

However, in this particular case, it seems to me no such excess measures were needed. You were merely taking the long way around since all you were showing off was the new aluminum casing of the new displays.

fs

G5s still unlikely

[ChunderDownunder]

I think there's probably one more G4 revision coming. After all, the top of the range has only a 1.25Ghz G4. I'd expect to see them bumped up to 1.5Ghz, as powers the Powerbooks.

Besides, have you seen the size of the heatsinks in the PowerMac G5s? They're enormous. How to fit in a small dome... The G4 is still the better choice - They'd have to underclock the G5 to reduce power consumption.

So, no iGentoo64 just yet. :(

Re:G5s still unlikely

[iJed]

The fact that its an "all new iMac" line hints at these models being G5 based. I don't see Apple completely redesinging the iMac just to release another G4 version. This would mean another complete redesign before they go G5. IBM seems to claim that the 970FX can run at very low power consumptions and is even suitable for a laptop. I am almost certain that these iMacs will be G5 based.

Re:G5s still unlikely

[Seanasy]

Would that mean G5 Powerbooks too? I can't imagine the iMacs getting ahead of the Powerbooks.

Re:G5s still unlikely

[Gatton]

I can. The Powerbook G5 will be an awesome technical challenge. There's already been talk of trouble getting the G5 to cool properly in the diminutive iMac case. You can imagine how difficult it will be to get it working in a slim Powerbook. I seem to recall reading that some people were predicting we wouldn't see a G5 Pbook until a lower power chip was released by IBM (I obviously can't speak intelligently on that so I suggest you disregard it completely.)

Re:G5s still unlikely

[default luser]

Just can't do it. Have you seen the thermals on the 970FX?

They're good, but they're not "Apple notebook" good. Remember, this is a company that's known for getting 5-6 hours of normal use on a charge.

Even if you clocked the G5 dynamically, you'd only get that kind of battery life if the thing stayed at 1GHz. That wouldn't help you at all unless you never USED the machine for anything processing intensive.

Honestly, there's no good reason to go with the G5 over the G4 except for the improved bus and memory interface. Even those would be heavily scaled back to save power, as they are on all notebooks that aren't marketed as desktop replacements.

Re:G5s still unlikely

[default luser]

Damn slashcode, ate up my "less than" signs.

Should read:

you'd only get that kind of battery life if the thing stayed at much less than 1GHz.

Think through what you're saying

[Anonymous Coward]

If designing a G5 is so difficult for apple then one of the following is true:

a) The G5 is a really hard chip to design around
b) The engineers at apple aren't all that good
c) Apple drags its feet on upgrades to new technology because hardcore apple fans will buy anything the company supports.

Now before you say I'm anti-apple, let me assure you I'm not. I have a couple of powerbooks, a couple of iMacs and a couple other Apple server in my house because they're good.

But the current line of G5's is too pricy for the level of performance, and the current Powerbooks are underpowered compared to their Windows cousins.

Well Gee, it turns out that Apple is only making money on the powerbooks, so that explains so much about why there isn't a G5 model.

Apple is in a reall bind right now. Thank heavens the iPod is doing so well, because if it wasn't Apple would be a mess. They'd better get their act together.

Re:Think through what you're saying

[mabinogi]

OR d), the person making the statement (read wild speculation) is just wrong.

that _is_ possible you know...

Re:Think through what you're saying

[the_2nd_coming]

d) Apple engineers are trying to get the G5 into a form factor that is up to apple standards, not Dell Standards.

Re:Think through what you're saying

[Anonymous Coward]

Dell makes small, quiet machines with internal expansion and good cooling. Maybe Apple should try something like that before making another tit-shaped computer with a display bolted on.

Re:Think through what you're saying

[Anonymous Coward]

> Dell makes small, quiet machines with internal expansion and good cooling

On what planet ?

My Dell c400 is a noisy piece of shit that runs so hot that it sometimes crash.

And talk about the expansion of that fucked 'high-end' laptop: no firewire, only one usb, etc, etc.

Small. Okay. maybe.

Re:Think through what you're saying

[shotfeel]

Or it may be that since there still seems to be a shortage of G5's for Apple's high-end gear, there may also be a shortage of G5's suitable for iMacs.

I assume the G5's for iMacs don't need to be as fast but they may need to be more conservative in the power consumption/heat generation category. If the new iMac was designed based on IBM saying a 2 GHz G5 will consume xx amount of power, generating yy amound of heat, and it ends up consuming 20% more power and generating more heat, that's a big problem.

Hitting the clock speed and power consumption requirements simultaneously really seems to be a problem everyone's having with the 90 nm process.

Re:Think through what you're saying

[TwP]

You're not anti-Apple, but you are forgetting one fact -- availability of G5 processors. IBM has been plauged with troubles ramping up production on the 90nm G5 chips.

Apple has also had quite a bit of demand for G5 Xserves for the new supercomputer for the military. Most likely Apple has the design hammered out for the G5 iMac, but they simply lack the G5 chips in the supply pipeline.

iMac looks like a Sony player to me...

[mbourgon]

Dunno about anyone else, but in the picture box for the article is a picture of the Sony HD-based MP3 player (mentioned yesterday).

Maybe this is how Sony plans on selling it? Confusing people about it being an Apple product?

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[Quobobo]

Well, they aren't cheap to buy. If you get them included with your computer, I think it's safe to say that Apple isn't charging the huge premium for the mouse that they do when it's bought seperately.

Re:Apple faggots

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, at least s/he spelled 'loser' correctly.

loser (noun) - 1 : one that loses especially consistently, 2 : one who is incompetent or unable to succeed; also : something doomed to fail or disappoint.

looser (adj) - opposite of 'tighter.'

Discounts on current models?

[Anonymous Coward]

Since we always like to compare Apples to cars for some reason: You know if you buy a car late in the model year that the new model is coming - so generally you expect to drive a pretty good bargin otherwise you just wait for the new model.

So Apple has let their stock of Imac get pretty low - but what about their resellers? Has any one ever tried to hagle a price down with a reseller on an older model left in stock? I imagine with news of the new models comming the resellers may feel pressure to unload the imacs they have.

Because...

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't make sense to you because you're a Mac fan, and not thinking like a business.

What this says is Apple has stopped production of iMacs. More importantly, it says that dealers have at least a 2 month inventory of imacs. That's too many. It says they can't sell iMacs.

I know the Mac fanatics will go crazy, but this is the only *reasonable* interpretation of what Apple has done, regardless of Apple's or anybody else's spin.

Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[mactari]

I can't quite figure out why Apple didn't roll out a prototype of the iMac at WWDC or spill a few pictures to the rumor sites (to quickly remove later). Is there more buzz to be had by not hinting at what's to come? I mean Apple stock took a 6% drop in the futures market already -- wouldn't building up some kind of semi-tangible excitment help mitigate that?

Apparently not, as Apple seems to make pretty smart PR moves, but I still wonder -- Why not spill the beans now? I suppose the G5 in the iMac is a shoo-in at this point (and we'd be disappointed if it wasn't), but how about another hint or two? Maybe it'll show movies from the net and replace your TV. Maybe the floppy's back! ;^D Toss your stockholders a bone!

Re:Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[jdwest]

Apple seems to be using events to announce specific products at specific events (I know, Marketing 101). MacWorld San Francisco was iTunes, iPod Mini and the new iLife suite. April's NAB show was all video-related announcements (HiDef FCPro, Xsan.). WWDC was all about Tiger. Perhaps it learned its lesson with the G5 XServe delays, because I can't help but wonder if Steve's "Oh yeah, and one more thing" was supposed to be the new iMac at WWDC this week.

Re:Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[lou2112]

Nah... attendees of the WWDC would tend to use PowerMacs and PowerBooks instead of iMacs -- mostly because they're into things like external displays (for greater screen space, i.e., one screen for code, another for the app) and fast CPUs (i.e., to compile, and/or play games while compiling).

A far better reason not to release any information about a product release until the actual release is that you're not bound to deliver anything in particular. That allows for wiggle room, which allows for further innovation before product launch, as well as some protection against Murphy's Law.

Re:Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[Bearpaw]

I can't quite figure out why Apple didn't roll out a prototype of the iMac at WWDC or spill a few pictures to the rumor sites ...

The people at WWDC (or paying attention to news about it) aren't generally an iMac market. It was a better place to focus on Tiger.

Re:Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[foidulus]

The people at WWDC (or paying attention to news about it) aren't generally an iMac market. It was a better place to focus on Tiger.
Yeah, but they will have to DEVELOP for the iMacs, so I think they would be interested. I mean, giving the consumer desktop more power would allow developers some more room to create interesting things. It's obviously more relevant than Myst 4 which was shown at the keynote
I personally think that Steve wanted to show it at the WWDC, but because of supply shortages or prototype problems or something could not. There were some things that I think had to be stretched out to make up for the lack of an iMac to display(Myst 4, the huge amount of time they took to show off the new graphics thing in Tiger). But based on Steve's searches for spotlight(birthday, iMac, Paris) I would be willing to bet that he is going to unveil it at the Mac even in Paris(cannot remember it's name)

Re:Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but they will have to DEVELOP for the iMacs

Because these iMacs operating completely different than the PowerMacs or the Powerbooks? Or perhaps the screens are a different size?

Developers develop for and on OS X machines. Most of the OS X Developers that I know (and I know a lot being one of them), use Powermacs and Powerbooks. Hell most of the smaller developer groups don't even test on iMacs.

I agree with the posters above, the WWDC is a bad place to announce a new iMac.

Re:Why not spill the beans on the new model now?

[Bearpaw]

Yeah, but they will have to DEVELOP for the iMacs, so I think they would be interested. I mean, giving the consumer desktop more power would allow developers some more room to create interesting things.

Well, maybe, except most smart developers wouldn't develop specifically for the next-generation iMac even if they knew the specs. IANADeveloper, but if they're working on really high-powered stuff, they're probably targetting PowerMacs more. If they're hoping to develop for a wide market, it'll need to run well on current iMacs as well as the next-gen models. Sure, it'll be nice to be able to take advantage of the next-gen iMac's CPU and/or graphics card and/or whatever boost, but I'd think that'd be a refinement of development, not a focus.

Not True

[garethwi]

Apple currently has two distinct case types. White for home, and metallic for professional.

The iBook, iMac and iPod are all white, while the Powerbook, Powermac and XServe are metallic.

Re:Not True

[Anonymous Writer]

Apple currently has two distinct case types. White for home, and metallic for professional.

The iBook, iMac and iPod are all white

The iBook G4 is aluminum. The iPod minis aren't targetted at professionals, and they're metallic. The old Apple 23" Cinema displays, targeted at professionals, weren't metallic. Apple didn't have any metallic displays to match the Power Mac G5 casing until recently.

Re:Not True

[MacCodeSmith]

The iBook G4 is white, I am typing on one now...the PowerBooks are aluminum. That being said I would welcome the aluminum look in the home lines as well.

Re:Not True

[corsa]

No, the iBook G4 is WHITE PLASTIC. I just bought one for my gf's parents. From Apple's site:

The deceptively smooth and well-rounded iBook is surprisingly rugged. It was designed with durability in mind, using ultratough polycarbonate plastic -- the same material used in bulletproof glass -- with an internal magnesium frame for added strength.

http://www.apple.com/ibook/ Are you thinking of the 12" Powerbook G4, which is aluminum?

Re:Not True

[Anonymous Writer]

Did I say aluminum? I meant plastic. </footinmouth>

Re:Not True

[garethwi]

OK, you have me on the iPod mini issue, but the reason the displays are not metallic is because they are old. The updated display fall into line with Apple policy, which started with the aluminium powerbooks, and is still being implemented.

As for the iBook, you have already corrected yourself, so I will magnanimously forgive you on that one.

Re:Not True

[Anonymous Writer]

Are you thinking of the 12" Powerbook G4, which is aluminum?

Actually you're right. I was confused because all the laptops in the local Apple dealer are aluminum. I presumed that some on display were the iBook, but I guess they haven't been displaying them.

Great sig

[Rockin' Az]

That was a really great sig - loved it. I don't know if you're a Pies fan or not, but Sad Loser would be a great username for someone that is ;-)

Go the Dockers!

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[garethwi]

tr -d '\000' | tr '\227\007\221\222\223\224' "\-\|\`\'\"\"" | strings | perl -p -e's/[\n\r]/\n \n/;' -e 's/\|\|/\n\n/g;' -e's/\|/ \| /g;' | fmt | less

I'm glad to see you kept it simple for the novices.

A LOT

[Anonymous Coward]

"alot of potential"

A LOT. Not "alot". A, SPACE, LOT. Two words!

Re:A LOT

[Anonymous Coward]

dude, how can you profess to be a grammer nazi, and miss his horrible misspelling of the word 'maybe'? Mabey you are the idiot here.

mod parent up....

[Anonymous Coward]

... they did their homework

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[donsaklad]

Thank you !

Regrettably, the programming part would have to be done or be done automatically.

There are a lot things like backslash227 backslash007 and so on in that.

Re:Pre-announced - translated

[rozz]

I must say, my esteem for Apple as a company raises each time they communicate "normally" (i.e. without going through heavy PR filtering). So few companies do it nowadays...

translation:
"i must say my esteem for my neighbours raises each time they pee in the elevator (i.e. without going through that "act like an human adult" filtering) ... so few people do it nowadays."

Re:Tired of Apple fanboy stories

[Hitchcock_Blonde]

We're tired of you, too. Get a life!

Typical Texas solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Solve with brute force what you can't with brains.

Seriously, this works, but is about an inelegant as you can imagine. The Sun RAY concept is much better, and cheaper.

Re:A sunflower inspired Jonathan Ive's iMac 2 desi

[catdevnull]

dude....that's way funny

Outdated Tech doesn't matter!

[FatSean]

It comes down to the philosophy of the OS used in the schools. If you've used Windows95, you can used WindowsXP...not too much has changed. Try going from XP to OSX....it's a little tougher you see.

So if you're going to pick on OS, you may as well make it a version of the most popular one.

Not that it matters, schools are teching kids to "Wordprocess and make presentations". These are good skills, but the schools should be teaching a little more about the computer itself. Give them tools so they are better able to figure out an unfamiliar app or system.

Re:Outdated Tech doesn't matter!

[droleary]

It comes down to the philosophy of the OS used in the schools. If you've used Windows95, you can used WindowsXP...not too much has changed. Try going from XP to OSX....it's a little tougher you see.

It's only tougher if you've done a poor job teaching (or learning). Sitting down in front of a computer for a student shouldn't be about learning that one system, it should be either about learning general computation or, conversely, have nothing to do with the technology at all (e.g., Lemonade Stand).

So if you're going to pick on OS, you may as well make it a version of the most popular one.

From an education standpoint, that's totally backwards. If you're going to pick an OS, you are doing a disservice to the students if you just give them the same thing they can get anywhere the MS monopoly extends. A student (everyone, really) is better served by broad exposure to multiple different platforms.

Not that it matters, schools are teching kids to "Wordprocess and make presentations". These are good skills, but the schools should be teaching a little more about the computer itself. Give them tools so they are better able to figure out an unfamiliar app or system.

Which totally contradicts what you just said. How could you expect them to figure out the unfamiliar when all they are exposed to is Word or PowerPoint or Internet Explorer? It's that kind of limited environment that turns them into adults with poor computer skills.

Re:Outdated Tech doesn't matter!

[Anonymous Coward]

At my middle school (6th-8th grade), we had a bunch of windows 98 boxes in our computer lab. There were 30, about 10 of which worked. You see, last year, that had the grand idea that they could unplug the keyboard and mouse, move the cable around, and reconnect it so they could sit back, relax, and use the computer with the keyboard and mouse in their lap. This created problems with finding any mice that worked - somehow, the plugs got f*cked to the point where it would have made more sense to replace the mouse rather than fix it.
If we can't teach the kids a different way (mac, linux), at least teach them some respect for the computers they do have.

Re:Outdated Tech doesn't matter!

[Anonymous Coward]

From an education standpoint, that's totally backwards. If you're going to pick an OS, you are doing a disservice to the students if you just give them the same thing they can get anywhere the MS monopoly extends. A student (everyone, really) is better served by broad exposure to multiple different platforms.

Oh really? Schools at the moment are having trouble teaching the finer points of reading, writing and mathmatics due to budget restrictions and in some cases less than qualified teachers. What you speak of is luxury, and is unrealistic to boot.

It's an appliance to most, get over it.

the Apple Newton 2100

[leinhos]

The same could be said about the Apple Newton Message Pad 2100. Not exactly a market sucess, but try to by one used and you'll still shell out more than $200 ($100 if it is broken)!

The problem with the cube was its position relative to the current line of Macs, and its relatively steep price ($1800 for the 450MHz version, $2300 for the 500MHz one - not including monitor).

That said, my last check on ebay showed these things still going for $500-$600. Not too bad for a silent, small form factor PC. I think the Hoojum Cubit3, packed with a GHz Via C3 (about equivalent to a Celeron 600MHz) would cost you about $1000, without much more performance.

Playing Cards Close to Chest

[catdevnull]

Apple is famous for doing stunts like this for hype. But, I think this one might have been a flub on the forecasting. Maybe outsourcing is biting them in the butt this time.

Whatever the cause, it's mysterious and it's anybody's guess. Jobs is probably whipping up a huge frenzy and they might spring it on everyone a bit earlier than they announced.

No matter what, we're all just rumor whores on this thread anyway :)

iMac hardly revolutionary

[Anonymous Coward]

The all-in-one iMac wasn't all that revolutionary. In fact, I'd say it was a step backwards for Apple.

Apple has had a thing with one-piece computers since, oh, about 1984. Even excepting the "classic mac" style, they turned an endless stream of all-in-ones, from the LC 520 to a beige G3 model.

While these might not have been as "sexy" as the iMac, they were subsantially easier to service. They had better cooling than the iMac, and usually more provision for expansion. They used standard Apple parts, not overpriced laptop bits. And they shipped with decent, useful ADB input devices--not rediculous half-keyboards and hockey-puck mice.

The iMac wasn't a good computer, just a stylish one.

Oh, and it's not true that iMacs lacked floppy drives. Every iMac I've ever seen has been tethered to a cheap external floppy drive, and usually a Zip drive as well. What design statement does this sexy one-piece computer make when the surrounding desktop is cluttered with garishly-colored extra drives and tangled USB cords?

Re:Brain Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

POSIX?

ADB Keyboard

[Riturno]

I don't miss my ADB Logitech mouse, but my ADB keyboard was a thing of beauty.

Apple Stock and News

[chia_monkey]

You know what really drives me crazy? Watching how Apple's stock (aapl) moves on news. It's down 4% before trading because of the news the iMac is being delayed. Yet when is the last time you've seen the stock go UP that much on news? The best you'll see is 1.5% or so. Very frustrating if you're an investor...watching it inch up...slooooooowly...up...inch...up...BAM! Huge drop.

Re:Apple Stock and News

[Anonymous Coward]

Might it imply that AAPL is so overvalued already (P/E 78.37 right now) that no good news is good enough?

Re:Apple Stock and News

[Skibbering]

It's down 4% before trading because of the news the iMac is being delayed. Yet when is the last time you've seen the stock go UP that much on news?

Easy, it's the new trend:

Apple iTunes/iPod gets a mention in the media: Stock +50 cents.
Apple iMac/G5 gets a mention in the media: Stock -50 cents.

So.. if Apple were to announce their new G5 iMac is going to ship with a bundled iPod and iTunes, it would have absolutely no effect on their stock. ;)

Re:Apple Stock and News

[Hassman]

It is stupid, but it all comes down to quarterly profits. If they are late shipping something, that means that it will miss part of the revenue it was expected to generate for whatever quarter it was suppose to come out.

That means that ther is a higher chance that earnings will not be as good as expected. Investors don't like this sort of thing.

Re:Apple Stock and News

[willis]

Dude, that's what it's like for everything - stocks rise gradually, and crash sharply. This probablility distribution is really important in option pricing (the volatility smile partially comes from this type of movement).

Sounds like manufacturing problems to me...

[sammaffei]

Apple missing a WWDC showing and then posting a psuedo apology for iMac availability tells a few things:

1. They wanted to show it but couldn't (filling more time with demos for a product that is over a year away, Tiger).
2. They won't be able to deliver for school time and want to save possible Christmas sales.
3. Possible manufacuring issues delaying production.

I tend to believe 3 the most. Probably heat issues from G5 or 90nm is in short supply / poor yeilds (even in the 1.6 GHz range). I would be very suprised if the next iMac isn't G5. Maybe the return of the cube!

Just ditch the lamp look. It stopped me from buying a G4 iMac.

ZING!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone's seen the WWDC posters right?

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[saddino]

Not content with ripping off Watson, they've now stolen the features for another product without proper recompense and included it in their "Tiger" OS.

Not content with doing any actual research on this story, now you've propogated the misconception that Dashboard was "stolen" from Konfabulator.

For John Gruber's excellent write-up on why this "spin" is plain wrong, read here.

I know why...!

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

"We planned to have our next generation iMac ready by the time the inventory of current iMacs runs out in the next few weeks, but our planning was obviously less than perfect."

Apple is going for a next generation-leap, but their supplier of floppy-drives had problems with the new 90 nm process!

wrong pic link?

[timts]

apple computer picture link shows a sony product, that's odd.

Most people are not like /. readers

[hayne]

Most people want a computer that is expandable, and can accomodate things internally (or at least have the option to).

No. Most people want a computer that just does the job. They don't know and don't want to know what is inside. Most people are closer to the person whom I overhead on the bus when the original iMacs came out, who said "It doesn't have a disk drive" because his mental model of a computer had two components: a screen (that shows you stuff) attached to a disk drive (that saves your stuff).

Re:Most people are not like /. readers

[nuggetman]

"It doesn't have a disk drive"

Or he was referring to the lack of a floppy...

Re:Most people are not like /. readers

[hayne]

Or he was referring to the lack of a floppy...

No - I heard enough of the subsequent conversation to rule that out and to derive the mental model I referred to above.

But gawd, the original iMac mouse...

[MtViewGuy]

...Was terrible!

That hockey puck mouse pointer was an ergonomic disaster right from the start. small wonder why Apple came out with that far better mouse pointer when the flat-panel iMac's came out. :-) Anyway, many iMac users switched to using USB-port Logitech and Microsoft mouse pointers, especially since later versions of MacOS 9.x and MacOS X versions supported the functions of the two-button plus scroll wheel mouse pointers natively.

And in the other news

[Extrymas]

The upcoming iMac is called iMLate

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[MtViewGuy]

Yeah, but there isn't anything keeping someone from using ANY 3rd party mouse as the scroll wheels and 2nd button are recognized out of the box for USB mice.

And that's why most of the Logitech and Microsoft mouse pointers you can buy retail have your choice of USB and PS/2 ports, especially since most versions of MacOS X will recognize such a mouse pointer and allow you to assign functionality to both mouse buttons and the scroll wheel! :-) I myself use the Logitech Optical Mouse (two button plus scroll wheel) and its "feel" is even better than Apple's own optical mouse pointer.

Re:Pre-announced - translated

[rozz]

to the smarty that moderated the parent as "100% Flamebait" - you never heard of the "don't shoot the messenger/translator" principle?

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[Anonymous Coward]

One is by *far* the lowliest number, unless we're talking about the beloved Stupida Mouse.

Think about it, you've got Five fingers on your hand, and you happen to do something where Macs are supposed to excel in, say Photoshop. Hotkeys are great for your left hand on the keyboard, but your right hand, on an Apple mouse, is only able to use one if its five fingers for any functional purpose.

I'm sure it's possible to design around this, just like its possible to not use hotkeys, but in the long run taking advantage of the fact that humans have 10 fingers and not one would probably benefit productivity. ... and honestly, is anyone here reading slashdot without a scroll wheel?

In other news ...

[Lycestra]

... Steve Jobs has taken a liking to the sport of Cricket. While he doesn't quite seem to get the rules, he does clearly enjoy playing it. And if any certain employee's ass gets in the way of Steve's swing, it's their own damn fault.

iCricket anyone?

(disclaimer: I apologize to anyone who is a fan of Cricket. this is a joke. laugh and be merry.)

Re:In other news ...

[Anonymous Coward]

no fan of cricket, but I enjoy good jokes.

Yours wasn't.

Can you say "Osborne"?

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG. When I read that (I had to check Apple's site to make sure this was not someone's idea of a (sick) joke), the first thing that came to mind was "Osborne".

There are still current-gen iMacs on sale here and there and you can now rest assured they won't sell (unless sold at a loss) because people will now be waiting for the new iMac. This is a serious faux-pas on Steve's behalf. I think he just Osbone'd his iDesktop...

(lightbulb over my head)

...come to think of it, since they won't offer tremendous increases in performance and specs, getting a current gen iMac would not be as bad after tall. Hmmm, maybe I could get myself an iMac for really cheap.

I'd rather do the opposite...

[Anaphiel]

... I think the swing-arm LCD is the best part about the iMac. What I'd like to do is take the guts out of a 20" model and use the base and display as a cheap alternative to a VESA-mounted LCD for my G5. Small footprint, easily adjustable to a lot of heights and angles... almost makes sense when you think about it.

Re:Brain Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

SFU?

Hairlines

[DLWormwood]

I can think of two excuses:

1) ----------------

2) ----------------

LOL. I had to think for a moment before the reality of your comment sunk in, but it was a good thing I wasn't drinking anything when it did.

Re:WELL!

[hcdejong]

But that doesn't run OS X.

Re:Apple faggots

[Dogtanian]

Oh man, it's too bad the parent got knocked down to -1, Troll. It should be +5 Funny.

while I've been sitting in the IP-ban corner for the last three weeks, I've discovered females. FEMALES.

Well done! Granted, most of us reach this stage before our 38th birthdays, but still...

Take a shower and clean your teeth, go outside

Again, well done. I should point out, however, that you're supposed to do this more than once. I'm sure that you smell better than you did before, but frankly, taking a shower every time the neighbors complain isn't going to cut it with the girls.

Suck on it, you faggots.

Dude, make up your mind. Are you gay or not?

Oh Reuters?

[dJOEK]

It's probably a much better resource than THE APPLE STORE ITSELF!

stupid. wrong. more stupid.

[RMH101]

any admin worth their salt looking after windows machines will have all preferences hooked up to roaming profiles. this is UTTERLY TRIVIAL TO DO AND IS DONE BY EVERYONE who knows what they're doing. the end. move along. there may be reasons to slag off MS, but this isn't one of them.

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[Dogtanian]

tr -d '\000' | tr '\227\007\221\222\223\224' "\-\|\`\'\"\"" | strings | perl -p -e's/[\n\r]/\n \n/;' -e 's/\|\|/\n\n/g;' -e's/\|/ \| /g;' | fmt | less

I'm glad to see you kept it simple for the novices.

That's not code; that's h4x0r-5p33K on mind-altering drugs.

Enough of the iComputers

[CrazyTalk]

Problem with the iMac is, you have to change the monitor when you change computers (problem with the original macs too). Wish they would bring back a desktop box (Dual G5 servers too expensive, not for mass consumption) that was affordable. I have an old Mac monitor in my basement gathering dust - no modern screenless macs I would buy to plug it into, though!

Slightly off topic, but is anyone else sick of the "i" prefix yet? iMac, iTunes, iLife, iPod - time to give it a rest.

Re:Enough of the iComputers

[Anonymous Coward]

iDon't know, iKinda like 'em.

Re:Apple faggots

[DeusExMalex]

there doesn't even need to be mockery of this post. the original post says it all: by Anonymous Coward. i think that pretty much says it all.

MOD PARENT UP PLZ

[Anonymous Coward]

Hilarious...god I HATE those fing Triniton lines!

they didn't do enough homework

[Ffakr]

the parent to this parent did do some homework, but they didn't bother to actually look for .09micron thermal numbers. The low end chips now (1.8 and 2.0GHz) come in at about half the thermal output of the .13 micron chips. They could easily fit in an iMac, thought the fan may spin up more often.

Just to put the new chips into perspective.. The max wattage for a 2Ghz Pentium-M is higher than than typical for the 1.8 (and I think 2.0) G5 cpu. PM, the darling of big punch - low power only runs cool at 600MHz.. when it's cranking, it's in the same league as the new G5.

Simple

[melted]

You say new exciting hardware is coming soon and people stop buying the old hardware. Why spend tons of money on something that will be obsolete in a few months.

Delayed for 3 months???

[eweiland]

It doesn't make any sense for Apple to have such a large hole in their lineup.

I wonder what the forthcoming line of computers will be named. iHub? inHome?

Announcement Tuesday.

iMac isn't for schools (anymore)

[green pizza]

2. They won't be able to deliver for school time and want to save possible Christmas sales.

Only the original CRT iMac G3s were for schools. These days, the CRT eMac G4 is for schools while the LCD iMac G4 is for home / "trendy" business. Why? Because school kids have a tendancy of breaking LCDs. Scratches, marker,even pencils thru the TFT panel. You name it. CRTs survive quite a bit longer in the edu market.

ditch the lamp look. It stopped me from buying a G4 iMac.

I bought a used 800 MHz 15" iMac to use as general workstation/terminal in our server room. I actually love the swing-arm monitor mount, it's really handy especially when you're not always sitting in the same position. Half the time I use that machine, I'm standing up, so it's **MUCH** easier/nicer to adjust and use than a traditional CRT or LCD monitor. The "Apple Pro Keyboard" is nice too. The mouse was crap, replaced it with a nice logitech from the spares closet.

Re:iMac isn't for schools (anymore)

[sammaffei]

Sorry, I meant more like students buying for themselves.

To make a boot CD, some apps need a floppy drive

[tepples]

boot from CD.

Then how does one create a bootable CD? The CD mastering software that comes with some CD burners does not allow creating an El Torito bootable CD image on machines without a floppy drive designated as A:; a floppy image is not enough. No, the people who use this broken software don't have 1. the time to learn about cdrecord and learn how to use the Windows command prompt, or 2. the money for Nero.

Wirelss Firewire

[simpl3x]

I don't think that the wireless firewire will be ready for an accross the board rollout by September. The iMac is a wierd machine in a sense, and placing a base on the new displays will solve the same design issues, but require a thousand dollar monitor. But, having a wirless iPod play movies on a 30 display with a Mac base would be the ideal home computer setup. No?

MOD PARENT UP!

[jimicus]

Hear hear! It's a simple "I'll do what I'm good at, you do what you're good at and that way we're all happy" scenario.

As often as not, those people who you've shown how to do something for the Nth time are directly earning the business money that pays your wages.

Bootable?

[tepples]

They probably thought emailing attachments would work better than carrying floppies.

Can one boot from dial-up in an emergency like one can from a floppy? Can the CD writing software on the Mac create a bootable CD without access to a floppy drive, unlike a certain CD mastering package shipped with some Windows machines?

Re:Bootable?

[Anonymous Writer]

You can boot from a CD on a Mac. You can use the OS installation CD or an emergency boot CD from Norton Utilities if you have hard drive problems.

Re:Bootable?

[shotfeel]

Yep. Macs had been booting from CDs for years before Apple dropped the floppy. Part of the "magic" of SCSI being integrated into the Mac was it didn't matter if the attached SCSI drive was a hard drive, CD, Zip, Bernoulli, Jaz or whatever else. If it had a valid System Folder on it, it would boot. The Mac simply didn't have the requirement for a floppy that Intel based hardware did.

Re:Bootable?

[theEd]

You can boot from most any external drive with a "blessed" system folder. In addition, my personal favorite is target disk mode. This is where you can turn a Powerbook/iBook into a firewire drive. So if you had some sort of problem where you couldn't boot the OS, you can plug the *book into another computer with a firewire port and mount the hardrive of the *book. The real nifty thing is that it's all implemented in firmware. The older Powerbooks, e.g. PB165, could do something similar with SCSI, but it required a special boot disk.

Re:Bootable?

[tepples]

In other words, an Intel machine can boot from a floppy, but an older iMac with no burner needs a whole separate computer, right?

The older Powerbooks, e.g. PB165, could do something similar with SCSI, but it required a special boot disk.

How would one stick the boot disk in a non-existent floppy drive? Catch-22?

Not on my motherboard

[tepples]

From the page you linked:

If your PC's BIOS does not seem to support this, check if there is an update for the available BIOS!
Your milage may vary :-)

So what if one's milage results in no suitable BIOS updates available for one's 2000-era motherboard? Would that justify the time spent flipping burgers to earn money for a new motherboard and, in the case of owners of Dell machines with a proprietary power supply connector, a new PSU?

Re:Not on my motherboard

[crawling_chaos]

If you already own a machine with a floppy drive, then the discussion is somewhat irrelevant. We're talking about buying new hardware here anyway, and whether or not a floppy drive is required anymore. Newer BIOSes do support booting from USB devices, and therefore do not require floppy drives.

None of my current boxes have floppies, and I can't say that I've missed them. I do have a USB external floppy drive, but I've never used it other than to prove that it works.

Not all machines can boot from USB

[tepples]

not only that but you didn't buy a USB flash drive that allows booting.

What if the motherboard's BIOS doesn't have an option to look at USB devices during boot time? Should a computer technician carry a spare ATAPI CD-ROM drive at all times?

Re:Not all machines can boot from USB

[bnet41]

if the BIOS is that old, and not able to look for USB, more than likely the machine has a floppy drive

Re:To make a boot CD, some apps need a floppy driv

[SvnLyrBrto]

> Then how does one create a bootable CD?

1)
Drag a valid system folder onto the CD image.

2)
Burn CD

Of course, making a bootable OS X CD is a bit more involved... not by much though. But when the iMac first came out there WAS no OS X yet, so that didn't really matter. The above two steps were all you ever needed.

cya,
john

NTFS?

[tepples]

I have a CD with a bunch of DOS stuff that boots from a Windows 98 "recovery disk."

How did you come across the Windows 98 recovery disk image in the first place? Is there a suitable disk image on the Windows 98 CD, or does the OS need to write to a floppy in order to make a recovery disk?

Still, what do you do when troubleshooting a machine running Windows 2000 or Windows XP, where C: has been formatted with NTFS, which DOS 98 can't read nor write?

vi

[tepples]

Apple currrently sells Emacs for $799.

No thanks. I'd rather buy a Vim from Dell for $499.

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[RickHunter]

... Holy cow. Apple must have some really, really good engineers, and some abso-frigging-lutely brilliant designers, to come up with something like that. I knew about the first part, but his detailed analysis of feature differences just drives home the point. Looks like the Konfabulator developers aren't whining over Apple stealing their idea. They're whining because Apple looked at it, looked at the original source, and said "Good idea, but we can do it better."

iMacs are being replaced

[b-lou]

This eweek article has the story, the current iMacs are being replaced by a new model.

Re:Brain Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

Crossing the river to draw water?

brilliant

[gmhowell]

Don't sell your cheap model to students getting ready to head off to college. Good move.

(And yes, there is the eMac, but it ain't cool enough for most of the kiddies.)

Jobs announced it at the keynote

[Quanza]

actually, Jobs essentially announced the new iMacs to be coming in September during the WWDC keynote. It was just in a subliminal form. Watch the keynote again for his presentation on the spotlight/search technology in forthcoming Tiger. First, he does a search for "iMac". Then he does a search (in addressbook) for "Paris". Mac Expo in Paris is during the first week of September :)

Re:Jobs announced it at the keynote

[Anonymous Coward]

Dunno why this has been modded "funny", since he also searched for "birthday" and talked about a "half-dome" (in his PDF search about Yosemite)

This has been going on since the 80's...

[Kong99]

Since I first came into contact and regular use of Apple products in the late 80's they have been consistent at Inventory mismanagement, either running out of products that are hot or stuck with large quantities of products that became obsolete.

I guess it should not be surprising since Apple has been and still is a software/design company that has to make hardware so you can see it's designs and use it's software!!

Re:WELL!

[ShadowRage]

that was a joke, if you read the link, the MX8 really doesnt exist because there is no Pentium 4 "E" series.

Re:Brain Holed

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say is true, code can be written on any platform, but on UNIX there are some very useful tools such as bash, sed, awk, grep, vi, emacs available. Now these tools can also be installed on Windows, but they work more seamlessly in a UNIX environment.

Defective Apples

[eples]

Maybe they're trying to avoid another repeat of the now infamous Apple III incident where they sold 14,000 defective Apple III's.

Two Target Audiences: Consumer vs. Enterprise

[tyrione]

Consumer's gauge new model cycles by past track records and rumor mills.

Enterprise markets gauge new model cycles by pre-announced future dates companies state will be the date these new models are released. This allows the Enterprise Markets to restructure budgets and better serve their stock investors and Wall Street.

Which Market has a greater upside for Apple?

Answer: Enterprise Market.

Now we also know that the Education Markets budget for August and buy most of their systems at that time whether it is K-12 or University. Even this market likes to have pre-determined timelines to make sure they have the funds available.

Presuming the next iMac is a G5 you can bet the Enterprise and University Markets will see much stronger than traditional demands for this new product. The Enterprise of course will look enormous because Apple's past track record has been crap, but in the past 3 years has made it clear that the Enterprise is the next big market for them to make waves. The Education Market will see a big jump because most schools have skipped many revisions in lieu of a G5 rumored to be coming down the channels.

Wall Street will be responsive and drive the stock up now that Apple is beginning to give them a forecast that they can meet, instead of springing on them results they had no idea would occur.

Once emotions are quelched and objective, rational contemplation sets in these people freaking about not getting new systems will relax because even in small to mid-size corporations the CFO likes to see target dates stated by vendors when they decide between which platform to sign off on and which one to pass on.

Re:How to set up an archive from .doc formatted ms

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a look here:http://www.macupdate.com/search.php?keywords= .doc&os=macosx

Or, if those .doc are simply formatted, you can open them in TextEdit and print to pdf or export to rtf. This would be easy to automate with applescript. (using folder action maybe).

It would be even easier to wait for 10.4 and Automator ;)

This is a Little Surprising

[Snowspinner]

I find it a little bit surprising just how little stock Apple has to ship right now. The high end of the G5 line isn't ready yet, the iMac is off the market, and they have no displays shipping yet beyond their basic studio display. I was planning only a few months ago to upgrade to Macs over the summer, but the combination of rebates on the 23" cinema displays and the upgrades to the laptops made me move sooner. Thank God I did, because apparently I couldn't have bought half the stuff I wanted to buy during the summer.

What the heck does the I stand for?

[k31bang]

Idiot? Intelligent? Infant? Ionized? sigh

Firewireless

[meehawl]

wireless firewire

Couldn't that be shortened to "firewireless", even "FireWiFi"?

FireUnWire

[meehawl]

Or even FireUnWire

Anyone own a current iMac?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually like the design now that they have the 20" screen (the proportions are finally right). However, I was looking at one in CompUSA a couple days ago. When I tilted the screen slightly up, the screen went out! When I tilted it back, the screen came back on. How many people out there own one of these? Is the screen being so touchy common? It really sucks when a display model is broken.

And yes, I was going to buy the iMac until I noticed this.

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

Technically, you're using three. One to click, then thumb and opposite to actually steer the mouse.

Adding two buttons either makes it so that one finger uses two buttons, or you got a full hand.

If you have more than three buttons, you risk having some people squeeze too hard when moving and triggering accidentally.

Re:WELL!

[Slack3r78]

The Pentium 4 E is the Prescott.

Useless trivia

[ccoakley]

The windows API is an ECMA standard. I happened to find it when looking for the CIL (MSIL actually differs slightly from the CIL standard by the way) standard docs. I think it is from the 3.1 days, though. Anyway, I thought it was interesting for two reasons:

1. Windows really *IS* standard.
2. ECMA really *IS* a standards for sale whore.

Also, to stick with the grandparent post topic, what does it matter if Windows are standard in business as far as a school is concerned? The students are likely checking email and browsing the internet, which really doesn't have much to do with what OS it is running on. It isn't as if the school is teaching kids to use MS Project so that they can all grow up to be good little middle managers.

Actually, my stupid comment just reminded me of something: does anyone out there use a Mac in a Windows dominated office? What do you use to open up MS Project files?

Used

[jbolden]

You can get dual G4s from apple pretty cheap. If you were willing to drop $2k for the IMac you'll have enough for the dual 1.25 which is a better system.

Re:Yeah, but I'd still toss it, Maya uses 3 button

[Sunnan]

You're quite possibly right, but optical mice generally have been more expensive than the optomechanical ones we had when I when I was a teen, those annoying ones with a ball that wore out after a while. That's part of what I meant.

I don't think that the number of buttons would affect the price by very much.

Re:Attention: Important info about Apple

[Ohreally_factor]

Fools rush in. . .

Mrs. Ohreally didn't raise no fools.

High expectations

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you imagine the kind of expectations that this generates? I mean what if the imac is released in September with just a faster G4 and better video - man would people disapointed...

Re:Doing my research

[saddino]

Genuinely interested: are you an Apple employee?

No, not an Apple employee, an independent developer. The concept of which (a developer not upset about ths Konfabulator non-issue) appears to really confuse those who bandy about terms such a "Microsoftian" and "zealotry."

I don't love Apple, the company, the "lifestyle" or the products, but their platform has allowed me to earn me a living (as has Windows). Clearly that makes me an "apologist" in your eyes, but I prefer "realist." To each their own I suppose.