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Tax Time Again: Any Linux Solutions?
vettemph writes "As a Linux user, I've used Intuit's Turbo Tax On The Web in the past, but I don't like paying someone $20 to $30 to submit my forms. For the last few years I've been filling out the forms by hand and mailing them for $0.37 instead. Call me cheap. The IRS has a target of 80% of all taxpayers using e-file in the near future. Does anyone know where the 'free and open' solution is? Do we need to petition the IRS? Currently the IRS seems to be protecting their 'approved e-file partners'' profit margins in the name of a security layer. (I call shenanigans!)" So how will you be doing this year's taxes? I'd settle for a good PDF editor to neatly complete the IRS's PDF forms.
why stop there?
Just answer the damn question?
- http://www.milkme.co.uk
www.taxfreedom.com Free filing baby! (unless you are rich, then don't bitch)
09-f9-11-02-9* (G^GCA_++{>. RV>>>>+++ NO CARRIER
Just bought the Turbo Tax Deluxe from the local Sam's Club. Decent price, and I'll have my taxes done by the end of the weekend. The only thing that burns me is the "electronic filing fees". Just call them what they are (profit) and be done with it.
He who laughs last is at 300 baud.
Spend $100 and use the free time that you know you
don't have for taxes to enjoy life
Taxes are a necessary part of life, to which OSS can provide a solution, and give consumers a choice in their software. Protesting taxes by withholding a free alternative does nothing but limit the choices of end users and perpetuate the government-endorsed monopoly on submission partners.
I just use the fillable PDFs that are available on the web site.
The IRS has a Free File program that a number of companies provide assuming you don't have any "special cases", that is to say, can use the basic 1040 -- don't own a business, take standard deduction, etc. I've found (whodathunkit) H&R Block's Free File program to be quite good. I did my taxes in my lunchbreak and got my refund the next week.
I forgot where I read it, but on the 14th on the http://www.irs.gov/ they will post a full list of where you can file an electronic return for free.
Anybody without a sense of humor should have to pay double.
I'll take a break from Linux and boot into WinXP Home (which I bought a $89 OEM license for). I'll buy a copy of Turbo Tax from Walmart for $30 bucks and submit my return online.
It's not all or nothing. Windows is great for stuff like this. Don't let your ideology get in the way of cheap, efficient, widely avaiable software that'll make your life easier.
Several companies have web-based tax software: there is no software to install, they have all the forms, you get a PDF, and they can also submit it for you. I used one of them last year with Linux and Firefox and it worked like a charm. The refunds arrived very quickly, too.
:-)
Installable tax software is so 20th century
Lots of folks are eligilbe for free filing using web based tools. It was quick and easy for me last year.
h tml
http://www.irs.gov/efile/article/0,,id=118986,00.
I use TeleFile to do my taxes. I call a 1-800 number and it's free.
Hey, what a great benefit! I'm beginning to love this cardboard house and cardboard computer too....Whoops, looks like something is smelling funny in h
All my earnings are reported, all my tax breaks pre-calculculated, interest reported by the banks. Only thing I have to add are tax deductible donations like Red Cross stuff.
Takes me about 15 seconds to do my taxes.
I have NO privacy in my life, but it sure is easy.
... I can say "yay, we've got something better!"
My little corner of Europe (Portugal) actually has a good e-tax delivery system: since last year, they have a Java application (which works beautifully in Linux, FreeBSD, and OSX) freely available for download on their site. It's as easy as:
1) Download and run the app
2) Fill the nice, easy-to-understand forms
3) Hit the "Check" button, and if all goes well, "Calculate", and "Save".
4) Get the resulting file, submit it through their website
5) Profit!
Zero cost, and very low margin for error. And the cherry on top is: e-submissions have a larger deadline than dead-tree submissions. After they validate everything on their end, you get an official-looking confirmation note in regular mail, and you're done.
if you live in Atlanta and are in IT, do yourself a favor and email Paul Wiser to do your taxes...I get nothing for this plug, he does mine and there is no better tax guy period: wfs1paul (at) earthlink (dot) net
Then it's probably a very cosy relationship between the tax accounting software companies and the Inland Revenue Service. They pay ahem ... "subscription charges" for the documentation and specifications, the tax accounting software companies get to call their software "fully IR/IRS compliant".
Is it time to blow the whistle on the scam by asking for specs without the fees? Damn right it is. Will they listen? Not unless you can get some mainstream media behind you.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
I've worked 2.5 years at a large tax-accounting software company. I have worked in other areas of programming for another ten years.
Your post assumes that there can be some rational sense to US taxes. The IRS doesn't work that way. US taxes are an ever-changing morass of semi-sensible, irrational IRS rules, constantly attempting to beat back tax abuses. It took a large army of accountants to keep up with each year's changes.
There is very little residual value in one year's tax software into the next year. Give it up, pay someone a measly few bucks for canning their expertise on a CD so that you can save hours and dollars yourself.
I'm not sure but there may be OS X support for some tax preparation software.
Times like this, i'm glad our (the norwegian) 'IRS' made an easy web-based iterface for 'e-filing' the tax forms. We can use SMS :P (yes, the cellphone thing)
but pen and pencil have always been my "open" solution to doing my taxes
Shouldn't the IRS really put it's enormous numnber of rules into a machine format for us? Then, use the same tax software each each, with the new IRS rules. Separate the constantly changing rules from the application itself With rules in a common format, a rule engine can get all the info it needs to complete the task in most cases. It's the Internal Revenue SERVICE. They least they can do is make following the rules easy for us.
H&R Block IRS Free File - Online Tax Programs - "FREE online federal tax prep and e-file for filers with AGI of $34,000 or less." They also have a few relatively inexpensive options if you don't quite qualify for that. I've used the free option for the past few years and it works great. (Even handles some of the non-standard stuff.)
Quit being a rebel, install win98 on something (you dont even have to pay for it!) and run TurboTax. Its not a conspiracy, its just Inuit not completly retooling something to run on an OS used by 3% of the population.
and, if that is too much, there is always WINE
~Phin
http://www.pyroweb.us
I use VMware when I need a Windows solution. And to be honest, I'm surprised how well it works under Fedora Core 3.
I use this for bookkeeping and doing all the payroll and HR and tax stuff too. It just works.
I don't use it for electron filing. I'll remain with dead-tree technology for that, thank you very much. I place absolutely no trust in the IRS's ability to secure their computers, or some other 3rd party. Especially if all they know about is Windows. That kind of says it all.
I think TaxAct has a free online version. Probably only for those of you without any complex forms to fill out, but it's something at least.
http://taxfreedom.com/
Surely these specs are releaseable under the ne Freedom of Information Act
I'm going to be e-filing for free again this year thanks to the generous forethought of my bankrupt ex-employer. Who knew that by withholding my scheduled pay increases they'd help me save a whole $25 come tax season? Thank you, you stingy corporate bastards!
You can also submit state taxes as well (again, free if you don't itemized).
If you itemize, then you can still use their service, but it will cost a few bucks.
There used to be no income tax in the United States. Now we have endless welfare programs, social insecurity, and other useless forms of government interference.
You'd give all your vital tax, income, and personal information to some company offering to file it for "free"?
Not I. This is one case where I don't mind taking 30 minutes to fill out a form and physically snail mail it (certified, of course).
Cheers,
dont pay tax?
If your taxes are more complex maybe TaxAct will fit the bill. I've used TaxAct a few times, and they were OK. You can do everything on the web and download a finished PDF of the forms. The downside is that it's slow to do it that way. You can also download some software from them to save your data locally, but it's windows only.
I've used Turbo Tax for years for a rather complex set of tax forms (A, C, F, and others). What I'm paying for is time savings, keeping the forms and calculations up to date (they are slightly different every year), and a guarantee. If TT screws up my calculations and I pay the wrong amount, Intuit has some responsibility. An OSS solution fir a once a year thing that changes significantly every year, and the failure (even minor calculation bugs) could cost you lots of money or in the worst case, jail time. Think I'll drop the $20.00. OTOH, if this is important to you, you could always start a new project on SourceForge.
pay no heed to the .ru address you get redirected to....
For IRS, in Brazil there's just one software provider: the government.
The software is free and has a Java version, thus you may run in any OS you like.
Do not use the people in the strip malls. They do not know any more about preparing taxes than you do. Last year I did them with Turbo Tax and then took them to my accountant. My tax accountant charged me $150 and got me an additional $1400! Find someone reputable. Ask your friends who they use. If you live in the DFW area I will be happy to recommend someone.
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels.
It is going to be free as in beer, but is it going to require MS Windows & IE 6.?
BG might mandate that, otherwise he wont pay his taxes. No wait! he doesn't pay any, does he?
Please let me know where I sign up for one of those...
/.: why the hell am I here?
Living in France for a year in 2000-2001 I had to file for taxes there. They had this Java-based software (with instructions on using it on Linux) that did the trick. Well, I still had to use the paper output it generated, I think if you had Minitel or whatnot you could file online too. I was impressed :-)
:-)
Here in Finland they know how much you earn anyway since your employer tells them, so they send you a "tax proposal", which is correct for "normal" people and they don't have to do anything other than possibly pay more/get a refund if the deductions their employer made weren't accurate. Anything special (like profits made from sales of stocks and investment funds, assets etc.) you can, depending on your bank, print out the correct forms online which takes a few minutes, return those and that's it. Of course it can get complicated here too, but I manage in less then an hour
H&R Block TaxCut Standard cost me $15 at the store and has a $5 rebate. I chose it because it isn't TurboTax (I hate Intuit because of previous Quickbooks and TurboTax fiascos). TaxCut Standard doesn't do free e-filing, but it does take a lot of reading and analysis out of taxes. Yes, I have the long form and a schedule C and other stuff. It does them and I was happy with the deductions it figured out for me. That's worth $15 and not something I'd trust to an open source project. I don't care if I never e-file a tax return. If you want to pay more you can e-file with the Deluxe or Premium version. I wouldn't expect Free tax filing software to be compatable with either TaxCut or TurboTax, so I see no use in it, unless you are the kind of masochist who wants to calculate and analyize your taxes without assistance, and then fill in forms manually, subject to all the errors and annoyance that this entails.
Incidentally, the infernal revenue service can suck on my paper forms until one or the other of us croaks, for all I care. I think I remember reading that about half of the revenue that the IRS takes in is used in IRS overhead. The ridiculitude of this is beyond expression. In the immortal words of N.W.A., "Fuck tha IRS."
One of the benefits of TurboTax is that if there's a mistake that doesn't involve inputing the wrong numbers, TT will be liable and will pay the difference. So if there's an addition error somewhere, they pay not you.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
From IRS Forms
For example, the popular 1040 in PDF.
http://www.taxfreedom.com/
Select taxpayers under a certain income, or with a student or military status, can use the TurboTax Web edition for free, with a free e-file for their federal return and (if their state participates in the program) one free state tax return.
i use turbotax on crossover 4.1 with no problems. no need for windows
If you use Linux you are a communist/terrorist. You don't pay taxes. You spend all of your time conspiring against our country and building WMD
They are not constitutionally legal anyway..
Just send them a packet of ice tea this April... See if they figure it out.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Seriously. The IRS really needs to fund a cross-platform open source solution. One that doesn't require you give business to any particular company.
0 .h tml
Could be done in Java.
Or perhaps (soon) using XULRunner.... XUL frontend, JS coded... take advantage of mozilla's cross platform capabilities and webservices functionality. Could even in theory be a Firefox extension!
At a minimum, the IRS should be providing kiosk's for taxes. Diskless monitors/motherboards/keyboards.. Stripped down linux with Firefox... go to your library, use a kiosk, file... leave.
http://www.irs.gov/efile/article/0,,id=118575,0
Ignore him ... he's not responsible for his glands.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Therefore, I requested to Turbo Tax to remove my user account, which contains a big deal of personal and financial information about me. They simply refuse to do that, as they say they need to keep my information on file.
This is something I do not like, so I just thought I would warn potential Turbo Tax Web users about this privacy issue.
And if someone has any piece of advice on how to face these people so that they agree to remove my account, it will be very much welcome!
All of our earnings get reported also. The only difference is that our tax code has mind numbing complexity worthy that of Rube Goldberg. There are a bewildering amount of cuts and credits that you can get for this and that.
And it isn't like we get any more privacy in exchange.
There is a big difference between what these companies are doing. Some have advanced services that analyze your return and ask you questions to get you a bigger return, and others just provide a field-for-field copy of the 1040 form that they charge for you to send to the IRS. I'm sure the IRS operates cheaper if its done electronically, so they should take the savings and offer their own free-file service (instead of having to wade through a sea of "upgrade to xxxxxx for $29.95" offers when you try to fill it out for free).
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
the cardboard toilet.
I ju8st use the aussie tax program from the ATO and run it in wine...
It's extremely expensive to provide the services that the software companies pay for. Making it available to everoyne with no fee = higher taxes for everyone, not the minority Linux, etc, users. In the perfect world everything would be free, but this isn't a perfect world. (plus there would be no taxes in the perfect world, anyways...)
I've done my taxes on line thru H&R Block for years and it's less money than loading more software.
Doesn't depend on any operating system.
For my time and money, the best way to go.
Electronic filing is free thru them and you get a pdf copy for archive. If you think that it is too much money, try doing California taxes on your own and see how much time is spent. It's no fun.
In the UK there for free you can use the Inland Revenues online web pagesto complete their forms electronically.
It takes you through the whole process and at the end the file is submitted and you can generate a PDF version that you can always send to the tax office if you get any problems.
I've used it the past few years, first year it failed to submit, but as I had the PDF file it was no problem.
Same EDS wrote it, they haven't got the best record with UK Government contracts...
i don't file taxes, you insensitive clod!
the things i really like about running a cash-only business out of my house is that i can't get laid off, i make my own hours, and i don't pay taxes to a government that goes abroad and murders citizens of other nations to steal their oil under the facade of "fighting terrorism".
Try getting your returns after the tax season. You can't. So if you print out copies but they are lost/destroyed, you're basically fucked. Happened to me this last year.. now I'm going to get to re-file Federal. Fortunately I don't owe anything.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Oh please tell me you don't work for the government.
Why do I think you work for the government?
a) You posted as AC.
b) You (almost) sincerely believe that lack of revenue is a valid excuse for not doing your job properly.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
It may be cheap and easy but it might not make my life easier. Most non free companies have a way of making things miserable for their users and I refuse to fund them.
It was turbo tax's mistaken use of the master boot record for copy protection that put a freeze on any new non free software installation. I don't want tax time to wipe out grub for me. This also rules out using something like crossover office. While it might be easy to repair the damage, I refuse to pay money to be screwed that way or others.
The bottom line is that if I don't trust the bastards with my hardware, why should I trust them with tax records? My bank already sold me out so that my snail mailbox is flooded with Mortage applications. They sent me a form that I have to snail mail back with a signature to opt out of their spam program. What turds. A company that writes out to my MBR is liable to be as fast and lose with my tax information.
My ideology is firmly based in the practical. It does not hurt me to do my taxes by hand and by doing so I avoid many other problems. My avoidance of Windoze has saved me countless hours of upkeep that I used to spend due to bugs, worms and all of it was compounded by stupid shit like the registry. It's problems like this that free software is made to avoid. Non free software is designed to exert control over you and that control almost always spells more hassle than it's worth.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
IANAAccountant, but I used to be, and to the best of my knowledge, it is still the case that expenses you incur in the preparation of your tax return are deductable. So if you have to shell out $35 for a tax package (and $89 for an o/s to run it, and $150 for a harddrive upon which to install that o/s) then as long as you itemise, and keep your receipts, what's the problem?
Look, if you want to make a difference, set up a successful business. Once you have enough money you can take the people in Washington out to dinner and cocktails and explain to them about the the laws they need to make. As an account and tax lawyer, the laws that you'll request will beyond the average person and you will be ensured a job for the rest of your life. Furthermore, as a reader of /. you'll have an understanding of technology and you will be able to bribe^Wlobbby for special terms for e-filing. If you don't like this, move to a more socialist country that puts their citizens before busineses. Unfortunately your former friends and neighbours will label you a bleeding heart liberal and commie bastard - what can you do?
Disclaimer: there has been no sarcasm or piss taking in this posting. What you read is what you get.
I have used quicken, and quickbooks, and the like. They are good to keep up with moderately complex finances. For a year or two, I actualy bought tax programs and paid for submission. Rebates made it cost very little. This is what I found.
The last time I could file a 1040ez, I did it by phone.
More recnetly, when my taxes got real complex, I had an accountant do it. Not a chain like HR Block. I established a relationship with a reputable accountant.
Currently my taxes are not simple, but only require a few sheets of paper. I don't itemize. I just fill out the forms. I am a geek, so numbers don't scare me.
If my taxes did get more complex, like marriage or a house, i would really be tempted to establish a relationship with an accountant to handle those things. It is nothing I could not do, but the proffesionals have easier access to the forms and infomation. The apps will cost you $50, and your time. The accountant might only be a couple hundred.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Support Fair Tax, a National Retail Sales tax (30% on new purchases). It replaces your fed income, social security, medi*, and estate taxes. It even has a rebate for your taxes up to the poverty line folks, it makes sense, put H&R block and the IRS out of business forever.
09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0
Sorry, i dont acknowledge anything above #10.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You know Linux isn't for business, silly.
--mpm--
The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
both turbo tax (in various incarnations) and the H&R Block software is available for Mac.
Is anyone aware of free/inexpensive tax apps for Canada? Or other countries, although that won't help *me*. :)
-- SYS 64738 --
It would be nice if these software companies would write their code to be platform neutral. Then they could compile a binary for any number of platforms but only support one code base.
If Mac OS and GNU/Linux gain more market share, those companiees might have to re-think their business plans, or maybe we'll get is a "98Lite"-style version of the current MS operating system if Microsoft re-thinks theirs; _that_ might just run well in emulation or translation environments.
Oh well, I can dream . . .
I'll take a break from Linux and boot into WinXP Home (which I bought a $89 OEM license for). I'll buy a copy of Turbo Tax from Walmart for $30 bucks and submit my return online.
So, that's the $119 work-around.... How is that better than using TurboTax online under Linux and paying $20?
as much as i appreciate the german way to organize things (and somehow less bureaucratic than in the u.s., where i now live), the standard electronic filing is done with a windows-only software. i had to use vnc on a windows machine at work, logging in from home; funny effect, if somebody else was working late in the office ...
What pisses me off more is buying an item that is labelled as .99 dollars, and ending up with almost a dollar in little coins. If prices had to be with taxes included, I'm sure a lot of the .99 cents would become .92 dollar or whatever would arrive at .99 dollars after tax.
Just to keep you informed about the outer world, Brazillian equivalent of USA IRS maintains since many years ago a free downloadable Windows program to do all the stuff, including sending the final data to the gov agency via Internet. Works nicely, has a comprehensive online help and even stores your data to be retrieved when needed. Last year they made available a java version, to cope with MAC and the growing Linux base.
Already written both the online companies to find out if they have solutions for Linux - neither do.
Guess I'll be downgrading to Windows.
The Kai's Semi-Updated Website Thingy
In the same boat down here in .au land.
.au is using a free electronic solution that's as good as e-tax, or at least adequate, hit me up with the info!
The government releases a software package called e-tax every year which you can use to file your tax thingy.
Unfortunately, it's Windows only, which I reckon is a pretty slack effort by the Tax Office. I mean the program isn't all that complex and could easily be ported.
If anyone from
--
The last digit of pi is four.
"I know Intuit and others will have a hissy-fit about their profits taking a hit, but too fucking bad. I shouldn't have to spend around $50 a year to buy a piece of software just to file my taxes."
Write it off on next years taxes.
The Alabama standard form and schedules are done in fillable PDFs that have the proper fields linked together and calculating. You enter the numbers from your various statements into the correct fields and then Acrobat does the calculations. They even set up the form to print a 2-D barcode of all the filled-in data so that entering your form into their computer takes one quick scan.
However, it doesn't seem to work in Acrobat 5.x under Linux, so I'll still have to fire up Windows on something. Then I can use Acrobat Reader 7 so I can save the filled in form (since v7 isn't available for Linux quite yet).
In the past I....
1. Did forms by hand
2. Download PDF... Print to TIFF [pre PDF years I just scanned in the form]
3. Copy and pasted the numbers from their "write their numbers like this" to the boxes
4. Submit
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
What we need first of all is for the IRS to create an XML language and semantic model of the tax forms. That markup should specify what gets added up how, define what goes into individual fields, etc. That way, we can create open source tools that work year after year, even if the taxcode changes, not only for filing taxes, but also for analyzing and verifying tax returns, as well as analyzing the tax code and the tax forms themselves.
The sales tax thing is annoying, but something you get used to. It's not difficult to add a few percent mentally. Or, you can move to Oregon where there is no sales tax at all...
With respect to state-controlled tax returns, this probably wouldn't be possible without significantly simplifying the admittedly byzantine tax codes. As it is, there are so many obscure deductions and rules it simply wouldn't be efficient for the government to handle it all. Consider this an example of distributed computation.
Turbo Tax For the Web.
http://www.turbotax.com/
Why are people talking about buying and *installing* software? Just use the freakin web version.
I've filed electronically using TTFTW for the past couple of years (both state and fed). Return goes directly into my checking account via EFT.
Cost is under $50 to file both fed and state. Can't beat it with a stick.
-Scott
Anybody without a sense of humor should have to pay double.
:-P
So that would ba all the repulicans. Hum I think that idea even better now
The IRS.gov site mentions sytem upgrades being completed by the 18th, that will allow for the e-filing of your 2004 taxes. As per the free, H&R Block and a number of other companies will allow you to e-file for free if you make under a certain amount of money, et al. I'm not sure about state taxes as FL has no state income tax.
There are some places, mostly fast or quick service food, that include taxes in the price. Businesses won't go for it because then the product looks more expensive. Deception in numbers.
Taxes are automatically taken out of the paychecks of all but self employed people in the US. The problem is that an employer can't take out the exact amount from your paycheck because we don't have flat tax brackets, and have tax deductions. A part time job in addition to your main one may bump you up to a higher tax bracket. Your employer won't know how many dollars you deducted in mortgage interest, student loan interest, medical expenses and so forth. Most middle class and poor people either get a refund or end up paying a small amount at tax time.
If we had a flat tax or got rid of deductions, then the need to file would be almost nonexistent.
I've done my taxes by hand using excel for the last few years. All you need is a spreadsheet with basic IF(..), MIN, SUM, +, and multiple-sheet referencing capabilities (i.e. im sure wahtever spreadsheet people want to go through the pain of using on linux will work fine..)
All of the boxes you fill out on a 1040 have a number, just make column A row N hold the value for line N of the 1040. If it's a multi-box line (i.e. 5a, 5b, 5c) then use A5, B5, C5 on the spreadsheet to hold those values. If it's a computed column (write the value of blah + blah here) then embed the formula into the column.
My tax return involves 1040, Sch A, Sch B, and Sch D most years. I put each schedule on its own worksheet in excel, and then reference them between sheets.
Interestingly enough i have a book on software testing that talks about testing the 1040 form, as written in english language. In the authors opinion the 1040 form has LOTS of bugs in it.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
If that were true, the IRS's overhead would be almost one trillion dollars for 2004.
Searching google for "united states budget" pulls up the Office of Management and Budget page. Clicking on the budget for 2005 and then "Department of the Treasury" reveals the Internal Revenue Service's overhead was more like $10 billion, or about $45 per tax return.
Compare that to the Department of Defense's $433 billion outlay for 2004 or Social Security's $492 billion.
where's govworks gone?
= snip =
Here in Ireland (and in the rest of the EU) your tax is automatically taken out of your paycheck and you don't need to worry about filling in tax returns every year unless you run a business. It seems bizarre to me (and the 350 million other Europeans) that all you American folk still have to fill in your own tax returns; surely our way is better?
= snip =
Well here in the US taxes are also automatically taken out of your paycheck. But then you get to declare thousands of dollars of your income as being exempt and deduct it. Now the IRS knows you'll do this but they don't know exactly how many thousands you personally can exempt. It depends on your house payments, how much you gave to charities, and so on. So they try to come close and then you fix the difference at tax time. I'll take the US system and pocket the thousands of dollars saved in taxes, thanks.
= snip =
Here in the EU it's law that shops have to advertise a VAT-inclusive tax so that when you get to the counter you pay the advertised price, not the price plus 10-20% sales tax. How do you guys put up with that?
= snip =
It's the price plus around 4% sales tax, varies by state. What would you put up with in exchange for 15% lower taxes on goods?
"IRS rules, like all Federal Agency law, is available in machine formats. "
Now try interpreting them. That's were the money goes when one buys tax software. That's also why an OSS solution will not work.
The first time I did my taxes it was one page, I did it by hand.
After a while I became self-employed. It ended up 3-4 pages. I figured out the new forms, did it by hand. Even the estimated tax penalty stuff.
Started itemizing deductions..add a page.
After a while had some stock investments. 2 more pages. Still doing it by hand.
Invested in some real estate investment trusts. Those bad boys throw off about a zillion kinds of income (but lots of it!). Non-qualified dividends, return of capital, unrecaptured sec.1250 gains, long term gains, short term gains, 5-year gains, blah blah. Taxes are getting more complicated.. still doing it by hand.
Started some foreign investments (if you were invested in european companies the past few years, congratulations).. gotta fill out another form for foreign tax paid. By hand of course.
At this point I'm such a tax-form-filling-out badass I be like Herbert Kornfeld an' his teecha CPA-ONE.
Of course I'm kinda of unique. I *like* filling out forms. Tax time is fun. I won't admit it in public though.
But you wanted to know how folks do it....
If it were a flat tax, it'd be simple to take out the correct amount -- but that doesn't happen. If you overpay your taxes, you get a refund -- usually happens. But if you miscalculate your exemptions or amount that'll you earn that year and your employer doesn't take out the proper amount, causing you to underpay your taxes - you'll get hit with interest and possibily penalties.
People that work for a company usually have their taxes withheld from their paycheck too. However, not everyone is paid that way, may have their own business, a part time job, working spouse, etc. All of those can throw off what taxes you have to pay. Also, the Feds and the individual states do have their own specific tax forms. They've existed for decades. What the original poster is complaining about it is for electronic filing. In that case the IRS has not come up with their own Java or cross platform app to do any of this. Instead, it lets software companies come up with their own tax software that I assume has to follow some guidelines the IRS has set.
Now concerning sales taxes, there is a good reason to not include the tax in the price: not everyone pays it. There are some oarganizations/people that have a tax exempt status, so their purchases are not taxable. Also, the amount of tax may be different depending on the product (ie food may be taxed at different rates in different localities than other goods, alcohol at a higher rate, etc). It's also a good in-your-face reminder of how much govt is taking from you. If it's included in the price, the amount of tax is hidden. Fuel is taxed like that and I would guess that the average Joe on the street doesn't have any idea how much he is paying in taxes everytime he fills up his car, but he probably has an idea of what the tax rate is when he goes to the store. Including the tax in the price is a nice way to keep hiking up taxes and mask them as normal price increases.
I've been to Ireland and didn't really find it's way of handling taxes any easier or 'consumer friendly' than what I've experienced in the states. I was pleased at the VAT refund station at the airport, though. Nice little bonus, but you guys are getting raped.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Some googling found me a program called Open Tax Solver. I haven't yet tried it, so I can't really say how good it is.
A version for this years US Form 1040 has apparently just been uploaded.
Normally I worry a lot more about how efficient government is at spending money. They could be a lot less efficient at taking it as far as I'm concerned.
Also, if you overpay your taxes and get a refund, you're lending the government your money for free for all those months -- which might explain why it happens so often :)
It seems bizarre to me (and the 350 million other Europeans) that all you American folk still have to fill in your own tax returns; surely our way is better?
Well, I prefer that taxes are visible so people have some idea of what they're paying to the government, and can better decide whether the benefits are worth it. (On the other hand that doesn't really work in practice here because there are still so many hidden taxes).
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
I totally concur!
Alright, well most people do get their taxes taken out. The reason people file a tax return is to get the taxes they overpaid back. Yes, it's a dumb system that essentially gives the government an interest free loan. It also gives people the chance to claim any deductions. For people with no dependents making under 50k a year, they can use the 1040EZ which is one page and it's simple to use.
I download the PDFs and fill out the form my self because I think it's easier than filling 20 forms online when the servers are running slowly.
As for sales taxes, they are state taxes, not federal. They vary between each of the 50 states. If I buy an item from another state, I don't pay sales tax on it. It's complicated and so I guess to make it easier on all those signs that say $99.99 plus tax. But we get used to it. I know that on everything other than groceries and clothing, I'll pay an extra 6%. If the price is 99 cents, I know it's going to be $1.05. You just get used to it I guess.
And I think the complexity from the tax system is to benefit the government. They keep a LOT of money each year from people who are too lazy to file a return.
Most Americans' taxes are taken out of their paychecks. But the amount that's withheld is only an estimate. The exact amounts people owe depend on things that an employer couldn't be expected to know, such as how much they earn on investments and how much they donate to charity. (If you donate money to certain charitable organizations, you can deduct the donations from your income when you calculate your tax.) Americans file income tax returns in order to tell the government about non-wage income and to take deductions. If the amount withheld from wages wasn't exactly right (it rarely is), we pay the difference or receive refunds
So, now I'm curious--does Ireland have no taxes on interest and other investment income? If investment income is taxed, who has to figure the tax? I don't see how the bank could figure the tax, unless you have a flat income tax rate. Banks don't necessarily know how much their customers earn from work, so they couldn't apply the right tax rate to the interest they pay their customers.
Faggotty Tax Pro, Ka Ka Edition.
Here in Ireland (and in the rest of the EU) your tax is automatically taken out of your paycheck and you don't need to worry about filling in tax returns every year unless you run a business. It seems bizarre to me (and the 350 million other Europeans) that all you American folk still have to fill in your own tax returns; surely our way is better?
Others have begun to explain this, but it goes a bit further than having secondary income. For example, in the US higher education is not free, but people recieve tax credits for paying their own or a child's tuition. The employer cannot provide that exemption since he has no idea how many kids I have in college and whether they're enrolled in a 4 year accredited university or not. Also, the employer does not know about any charitable donations I have done - which I can write off of my taxes. Also, the government encourages us to save for retirement through tax-exept contributions to IRA (don't get excited my Irish pal, it stands for Individual Retirement Account) accounts. Since whether a person funds an IRA or not, and how much, is not known to an employer, but the person later on can go back and have that amount of money subtracted from the amount that he is being taxed on.
Additionally there are lots of little wrinkles like this in the tax code, and everyone is affected by at least one or two. Certainly there's been a lot of effort to simplify this, but I am not sure if that's a 100% good thing. Certainly the government should encourage us to behave in certain ways (getting an education, saving for retirement, donating clothes to the needy, etc) so it's complex by necessity. Though of course it can use improvement.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
Well, in some ways it is silly that people have to file, since taxes are withheld from wages. If you're a little guy, you have nothing to hide (or at least nothing you can hide).
But we have a complicated tax code. The upside is, it is possible to cut the amount of taxes you pay a little bit if you're willing to work a bit, which wouldn't be possible if it were just a matter of letting the government take the money out of your paycheck.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
When my wife and I started acquiring investments and stock, we realized that things had just gotten too complicated for us; at one point, we did our taxes three times, and got three different results.
So, we've had them done by H&R Block for the past three years, and we'll be using them this year as well.
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
They help because the system is crufty and hard to understand, but they aren't strictly necessary.
Actually, WRT to doing your own taxes, spreadsheets work fine; you just set up the formulas as you go along the same as if you were doing it by hand. It's easier and a bit more interesting than doing it by hand. You can even usually use almost of last year's spreadsheets, since the forms don't really change that much.
You don't get the magic pixie dust that supposedly figures out how to reduce your taxes, but I don't believe in that stuff. It's better in my opinion to read the instructions, or if you don't understand part of them, consult a real expert.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I have had good experiences with joe blow CPA. Two fellows in particular (one for the biz and one for me)
it's very simple - our country (the US) is run by greed. if the government actually did something that made sense they would be putting a lot of people out of work. and heaven forefend they do that. i wish we could move to a much simpler system. for a number of reasons - such as the rich wouldn't be able to buy themselves a ton of loopholes with the help of high-powered tax attorneys and consultants. the US is so totally corrupted by greed that there's probably little to no hope for us ever becoming enlightened enough to realize that maybe less is more.
nature loves variety::society hates it get your variety at http://www.monkeypantz.net
I don't expect there to be a free Turbo Tax / Tax Cut equivalent. The idea of free software, as I understand it, anyway, is you make a program that you use, and you just give it to others because you think they may find it helpful.
This cannot happen with tax software. If you understand the tax code thoroughly, you're going to easily know exactly which forms to fill out in a specific year. And you would be an accountant, not a programmer.
Basically a programmer isn't going to sit down and write a program to do their taxes because by the time they know how to do their taxes, why would they write a program to do it?
This is why it takes a commercial entity to say "Ok, we have the know-how and the programmers to put this thing together, and we know people will buy it" -- god bless them because I've been using either Turbo Tax or Tax Cut for many of the past few years, and every time it has saved me money.
Certainly these companies can probably increase their sales a bit by making Linux binaries of their software, but don't expect them to give away the source to something they've invested so much $ in and depend on sales of to make money.
Coincidentally, I don't mean this post to be deragotary towards Open Source people, but am I wrong that no one is going to start a project for code that he himself isn't going to use?
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
http://www.taxactonline.com/
Entirely web-based; I've been using it to e-file under Linux for two years. If you just want hardcopy, it's actually free.
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Our tax system sucks but it will be better than the evil hidden VAT tax when Bush gets it reformed.
In the mid-90's, online (web-based, even) tax completion software was developed by a group at NTIS for the IRS.
All was good until the tax prep'ers got wind of it. Then, following millions of dollars of investment (and a pretty much completed project) the whole thing was scrapped.
Welcome to the United States of Corporate America.
Why is it that every year slashdot has this type of post about what type of open source/linux-compatible tax software? What happened to the idea of the FSS/OSS movement that if a piece of software doesn't exist, then someone can write it? Why hasn't anyone written this software?
Guess they're too busy bashing M$.
though, haveing not actually read all of the documentation, the IRS want's this to be easy...h tml apropriately titled "e-file for Software Developers/Transmitters"
take a look at http://www.irs.gov/efile/article/0,,id=118575,00.
maybe someone with some more time, and experiance than I should take a crack at it
I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
That's how it works over here, too. But over here we have tax deductions, which is basically an attempt by the government to promote certain activities that would benefit the social good. (I would have thought that the EU has something similar?)
For instance, if you pay your tuition for higher education, you can deduct the expense and don't have to pay tax on it (in most circumstances). You also don't have to pay tax on charitable contributions, excessive medical expenses, mortgage interest on a new home, etc. Many states also use tax deductions to encourage certain activities that help to protect the environment, for example. Filing a return makes sure that you get the tax deductions you are owed.
Also, not everyone gets a paycheck. Millions of Americans are self-employed, so they need to file a return in order to pay their fair share of tax. How does the EU handle this situation?
Furthermore, there are many situations in which filing a return will benefit the taxpayer. I'm not sure how it works in the the EU, but over here if you earn below a certain amount of income, you don't pay any income taxes at all. For instance, your employer might be deducting tax from your paycheck, but after six months you quit in order to go back to school full-time. You would then be able to file a return and get back all that tax you had paid, since for the year overall you are in a lower tax bracket.
I have heard that the IRS owes taxpayers billions of dollars because of situations like this, but they are unable to do anything about it because the people who would receive this money do not file returns.
If you use MSWind for games, or other not tax preparation uses, you can only deduct the percentage of the time that you use it for tax preparation.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Couple things: 'enlightened' is how you percieve yourself, it's now how you actually are.
Secondly, your signature is correct, to a point. If your bicycle is slowing down traffic, it has no place on that road. I see too many imbeciles riding bikes trying to cause wrecks by riding down highways with no adequate shoulder or area for them to ride. And there are tons of bike paths that you can use that cars aren't permitted on. Other than that, have fun on your bike.
My blog. Good stuff (when I remember to update it). Read it.
I happen to work for a company that makes tax software. It's a ton of work. A tax analyst (typically a CPA) and programmer team will typically have between 2 and 4 states, plus there is a team of a dozen or so that spend full time all getting approved forms (the forms must be very, very precise since they are usually optically scanned). There is a team of a dozen or so doing underlying programming for the system in general. The federal system has a half dozen people dealing with it specifically. All these people are doing this full time.
This is not even mentioning the fact that we have a lot of integrated accounting systems that interface with it, because those don't interest you.
If you're implying that some community should do this, I just don't see how it can happen. The knowledge is quite specialized and a ton of work is needed on a recurring basis. A LOT of testing must be done. People probably will not be willing to use a system unless there's some liability on the part of the authors.
If you're saying that the government should provide the software, good luck. The states are all WOEFULLY understaffed; with the budget cuts in the last few years, many states have had their taxing agencies practically decimated. Most lost a lot of staff, some lost most of theirs. The remaining staff is hideously overworked, and there's practically zero programmer time available.
What's the incentive for the government to push for something like this? There are already good products on the market, and they don't have to lift a finger to do it. If they did go thorough all that work, they'd be taking business away from companies, and they'd be taking on liability themselves for incorrect programming.
All my earnings are reported, all my tax breaks pre-calculculated, interest reported by the banks. Only thing I have to add are tax deductible donations like Red Cross stuff.
It could Take me about 15 seconds to do my taxes.
I have NO privacy in my life, but it is not easy.
Really, Uncle Sam gets reports from everyone and "voluntary compliance" is a fiction. Even charities have forms to fill out.
My wife thinks they should have a web site that has the forms filled out and a little button, "I agree" or "make changes". The I agree button would take all of no seconds to push and Uncle Sam knows where my money is, so the next screen should present payment options. Make changes should let you enter things they might not know about, which would be rare, or let you file a complaint that a human being actually has to look at.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Check out TaxACT. The basic "fill in the forms" version is free -- you print the resulting forms and mail them in, and it doesn't cost you anything. You can e-file for $7.95. No, it's not free, but come on -- under $8? You can barely see a movie for that these days.
The deluxe edition is only $9.95, and it is more thorough if you have things that can give you tax breaks. I'm doing the deluxe version this year, but did the standard one last year -- I started out thinking I'd print and just do it for free, but then realized that the convenience of e-file for $8 really can't be beat...
Since it's web-based, it works fine from Linux. One problem I had (and I've had with another web site as well): for some bizarre reason, the first screen, with the user agreement, looked entirely blank -- it was really just white text rendered on a white background. Strange. It came up fine in konqueror and firefox though, and once you get past that first screen everything seems to work fine in Mozilla (it did force me to install Firefox though, which is actually a good thing).
Anyway, sorry to sound like an ad, but I like it, and I like that I can use it under Linux. It gives my sense of privacy a bit of the willies, but I think you're pretty well protected by law as far as that goes...
Because I am able to get back anywhere from 4 to 5 grand in deductions.
Here in Ireland (and in the rest of the EU) your tax is automatically taken out of your paycheck
It works the same way here in the US. Income and other taxes are automatically deducted from my paycheck. However, since income tax is not a flat percent of gross pay, what they deduct from the check will seldom match exactly with what you actually owe in taxes.
and you don't need to worry about filling in tax returns every year unless you run a business.
If you don't plan to take a number of itemized deductions, you can fill out the simple tax form, which basically requires you to add up how much money you made, look up in a table how much you owe in taxes on that amount, and then subtract the total amount taken in income taxes from your pay. It took me all of about 10 minutes to do my taxes last year, which included the time to add up the income from four sources.
Of course, owing to the special-interest and loop-hole filled mess which is the US tax code, you can often pay a bit less in taxes if you take the time to figure out all the deductions you're allowed to take and fill out the longer version of the tax form which lets you itemize your deductions. This can take quite a bit longer.
Come test your mettle in the world of Alter Aeon!
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However, why in the name of all that's Holy don't you US folks have state-controlled tax returns yet?
We don't like state-controlled anything.
However, most people's taxes require information that the government simply doesn't have. So you fill out your taxes to claim deductions, etc. This is where the taxes get really complicated. The government just doesn't know if you use your SUV (big car) for business, or if your employer made you buy it, or if it's electric or not. They don't know how many square feet you use for business in your home, or how much income you got as cash for a side business, etc. This is all information you can report on your tax returns to lower your tax (or to raise it and avoid penalties if you happen to be audited).
It is possible to have the government do your taxes if you don't fall into that category, however. You just basically fill out your name and a couple other things and mail it in. Very few people do this however. Even the people that could do it probably don't trust the government enough anyway.
Here in Ireland (and in the rest of the EU) your tax is automatically taken out of your paycheck and you don't need to worry about filling in tax returns every year unless you run a business.
Yes, that happens here too. (Actually I'm self-employed so I pay quarterly tax payments instead, but it's similar in spirit). Then at the end of the year you figure out if the government owes you or if you owe them by fiddling all these little details.
not the price plus 10-20% sales tax. How do you guys put up with that?
Different states have different sales tax. So probably companies prefer to have their products advertised at the "base" price before taxes.
What do you Americans think?
The US tax system is okay, but very complicated. That's because 1) there are lots of special interests tinkering with it and 2) every special interest that wants to add a bonus or penalty for certain behavior has to be sure that it doesn't add any loopholes.
Example that gave me some headaches last year (yes I do my own taxes by hand):
The president says "corporate dividends shouldn't be taxed". Okay cool. Fine with me. Companies pay tax on their income, and then WE pay tax on our dividends, so they are "taxed twice". (Unless they are received in a retirement account.)
The logical thing to do is to eliminate the tax AT THE CORPORATION. However this isn't "politically correct" because it seems to favor corporations (economically it doesn't matter). So they lower them at the taxpayer end. Lower taxes on dividends! Yay!
No, not really. Because some corporations don't pay taxes on dividends to begin with!!! For example, REITs (a type of real estate operating company). In exchange for paying out most of their cash flow as dividends, REITs pay no taxes (this was done in the sixties or so to encourage real estate investment).
So the IRS still taxes REIT dividends. They created two classes: qualified (lower tax) and non-qualified (old tax). And they came up with some crazy date-based rules to make sure you held the instrument for the right amount of time. here's a link. They actually screwed up the holding period rules because they are so complicated and had to quickly amend them.
So what's my point? That every change you make to the taxes requires detailed rules to make sure that there are no loopholes. And then new changes have to take all the other changes into account...etc.. And whenever somebody says something that sounds like it makes things simpler, it really ends up making things more complicated.
I'm not sure how you could 1) eliminate the complexity of filling out forms and 2) still have a system of rewards and penalties. For instance to give people a tax break on tsunami disaster relief, next year our tax forms will have a special space for tsunami relief donat
ed to advertise a basic tax-exclusive price on goods.
The problem is that local sales taxes vary so much here. It would be impossible for a business to advertise a price that included tax. If they put an ad in the paper, people in dozens of tax areas would actually pay a different price.
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
In the UK you can file your return online directly with Inland Revenue. The only problem is it sucks to sign up and the forms are not very friendly but it does work. In the US I used one of the free online services to fill out the form and then paid the $10 for submission. The US online forms were way simplier as it asked you plain english questions about your inclome and expenses and had a bunch of online help.
[Please type your sig here.]
Scribus is a robust open source desktop publishing app. Editing pdfs is one of its most killer tools.
and you pay out your ass for that "basic *right*" to avoid a blue collar job.
That's interesting, but it looks like it would take more effort to write the "commented text file" it uses for input than it would be just to fill out the form by hand.
It's interesting, though.
My employer does take out the appropriate amount of taxes, based on a 'witholding' form I fill out, but:
my employer does not know how much interest I paid on tax deductible loans.
My employer does not know how much money I gave to charities this year.
My employer does not know how much I spent on medical expenses (which are deductible)
MY employer does not know how much money I made or lost in investments this year.
And I prefer to keep it that way.
Sales taxes in the U.S. are incredibly complicated. They vary by small region. Most States have a sales tax (in Virginia it is 4.5%), some cities take another 2-3% on top of that, some counties add a percent or two. In some jurisdictions food is not taxable, and in others, 'convenience food' is taxable, but not 'other' food - meaning I can walk into dunkin' donuts and get 1 donut and pay tax, or I can buy a dozen and pay no tax at all. Two identical stores with identical products just a few miles apart will pay different tax rates. It is ugly and complicated, but I like not having the tax as part of the advertised price - it makes it easier to comparison shop, and certainly makes the advertising literature easier to produce.
Objection! Assumes organs not in evidence!
Frodo Lives!!
ok. i'm pretty stupid, so explain this to me. can you tell me what communism is in a single sentence? can you tell me what scale it applies to? i.e. a group of 10 people, a family, a state, a country, a church, a club, a sports team? can you work that into a frame of reference for me? i thought communism was a form of government chosen by a state?
I've thought about this a good deal but haven't started anything yet.
... just get a usable base that helps some people, and add to it every year so that it's more and more complete.
Most of my taxes are simple except for a Schedule D for stock/option trades, which can be a pain in the arse by pen and paper. I keep my trades in Gnumeric, and think there should be a program to import Gnumeric (or, better, an OASIS format spreadsheet) and spit out a Schedule D and any D-1s.
I've been wanting to write a program to do exactly that, but the biggest holdup is the lack of a Free library that can write arbitrary strings to arbitrary locations on PDF pages (the downloadable IRS forms) and generate a PDF containing the D and any needed D1s. Anyone have an easy solution to this? It's not something I want to spend a great deal of time on right now, but if it's there, I'll do it. Perhaps convert the PDFs to PostScript and modify the PostScript, but I don't know PS...
Anyway, once something like this was accomplished, it should be relatively easy to expand it to other tax forms for other purposes, and eventually fill in the complete 1040. We don't need to do it all in one year
Well you see, over here we have loopholes. Deductions and things.
It means anyone with any real money, brains, or just a compitent accountant, doesn't have to pay any taxes at all. It's a great system, and it works.
Your system is all "fair" and we don't take kindly to that over here in the USA.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
A lot of people gave perfectly good answers to your tax questions. I just wanted to note how silly it is when people speak on a greater groups behalf (probably to make their point seem stronger). You spoke as if the tax systems across the EU was similar to a point, when I happen to know you're flat out wrong. I lived in the Netherlands for the last 3 years and I filled out a simple electronic form each year and got money back. Just like I did in the US. You had good questions and points, but don't be naive about what you profer as fact.
"I'm not trolling about the US tax system, but having experienced both US and EU tax practices, I can definitely say that the EU's approach to taxes are far more consumer-friendly. What do you Americans think?"
What "I" think is that the majority are avoiding the OP's question. Turning it into their own personal rantfest against the IRS. And worse some don't like their personal rants interrupted with information that actually might be useful. That's what I think.
It may seem odd to outsiders, but it allows national companies to advertise the same price for an item across advertising mediums and state lines. Otherwise they'd have to make 50 different commercials, and modify them for some cities with different rates. It would be insane trying to keep track of it.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Huh? Last time I checked France was a huge part of the EU and while it may seem bizarre to you and your 4 million countryment, I filed just as cryptic tax returns for them over the last 3 years. Guess what, they withhold for Social Security but not Income tax, meaning I wrote a bloody huge check four times every year to pay the tax man.
As far as "your way being better", I'd much rather have everyone write a check to the government every year, maybe that would finally spur the revolution we need. When you don't see it, except as a digit on a check, the tax seems reasonable. Let people write a check for 20% of their earnings and see how fast fiscal conservatives get elected.
While I'm at it, every time I'm in the US something I get really pissed off at is that shops are allowed to advertise a basic tax-exclusive price on goods. Here in the EU it's law that shops have to advertise a VAT-inclusive tax so that when you get to the counter you pay the advertised price, not the price plus 10-20% sales tax. How do you guys put up with that?
How do you put up with paying a 20% tax, in addition to confiscatory rates for social security, income, and property tax? Again, if it were buried in the price, I'm sure we'd gladly pay but since it's obvious, it helps keep government spending down.
At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
Alan Greenspan
The IRS has a target of 80% of all taxpayers using e-file in the near future. Does anyone know where the 'free and open' solution is?
Right here. It's not done and probably never will be.
The variation in the US is roughly 0-10% (Chicago has an 8.75% sales tax, which is the worst I can think of off the top of my head, but there may be other locations with a bit more.)
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Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Why the hell should we make the job of the IRS easier? Deluge them with good old fashion paper returns by snail mail. Helping them improve their efficiency only frees up their resoures to harass taxpayers. No thanks.
Fight the powers that be.
for a company that wishes to compete against the established companies.
History has shown that the companies that do not make the switch into new technologies rarely survive. Best example was that most business software was on the mainframe/sys 36's for years and years. Then this little company came along in the 80's doing residential and even small business accounting on PCs and Macs. Intuit was considered a joke for doing all that work on systems that was not in vogue. Yet, it was where the future growth was. Likewise, there was no real competition for them. So the place to be is where growth is and little to no competition.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
They pay ahem ... "subscription charges" for the documentation and specifications, the tax accounting software companies get to call their software "fully IR/IRS compliant".
Wrong. You can download all the specs for free, and then if you submit your fingerprints and pass their tests, you yourself can become an official e-services provider. I even signed up as a software provider and got approved for testing, but I never finished the product. You want a free/open source tax program? Write one.
either that or he's from india and don't like to admit that oursourcing affect american tech sector big time.
Free online tax prep.
Print it and send it your darn self.
My mom says I'm cool.
10-20% sales tax? I am an American in Canada and I can say for sure I have never seen a sales tax that high anywhere in the US. Though in Canada it is like that. There is a GST and PST, provincial and federal sales taxes on almost everything except unprepared food. That makes almost 15%. In Michigan it is only 6%, and used to be 4% only a few years back.
You can find it at https://ifile.marylandtaxes.com/
It's a great system, and it works.
It's perverse, though. I've been thinking about whether I can call managing my IRA a small business, because the income would be tax free but I get to deduct all my "business expenses" from my other ordinary income... The thought of it makes me giddy, but I have no idea if it's legal, yet.
-- Microsoft is the most expensive commodity operating system and office suite vendor in the marketplace.
Chicago has an 8.75% sales tax, which is the worst I can think of off the top of my head, but there may be other locations with a bit more.
Tennessee has a 7% state sales tax, with counties and localities allowed to tack on up to 2.75% more. In most localities, they tack on the fullest amount allowed for by law, so most places in the state you're looking at 9.75%
Still, we have no state income tax, so it does balance out a bit.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Last year, the on-line TaxACT was one of the few IRS Free filing options that my family qualified for. I did federal there for free (including the filing) and paid some very small fee ~$10? for the state version and filing (with all the info automatically transfered from the federal form). I plan to try it again this year and hope they still have my info on file making it even easier.
Hire a CPA. Seriously . They're going to find a LOT more than a little "questionairre" is going to find by asking you questions.
A highly-skilled CPA (i.e. one who works with technology people) will be able to find places where you can deduct expenditures that your own Intuit and other software can't possibly take into account.
Use your DSL line for sending business emails? That's deductable as a business expense. Power to keep the cable modem and WAP running? Also deductable.
Accept PayPal payments for your Free Software work? That's not income, its a Gift, and deductable. There's a lot more where these come from. Most of them aren't going to be asked on any sort of tax software.
We just finished a website for a local CPA here in Norwich, CT. and he's really skilled in these and other areas.
Definately check out your local CPA, before you head into H&R Block or online for some question-and-answer forms and software.
It'll pay for itself in the first year's return. TRUST ME.
Apparently, you know about as much about the US tax system as about the European one.
In Germany, France, and most other countries in the EU you have to file yearly tax returns.
And they actually check every one of them (unlike in the US.)
Here in OZ the ATO (Australia Taxation Office) supplies an application to complete your taxation and send it via the net for free. You have to pay for something your only going to use once a year? Is that right?
:)
Only in America
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
Check out http://gnutaxes.sf.net. I will be helping out with the project. You should too.
I would support your regressive tax that takes a greater percentage of income from the poor and middle-class (before you start spouting BS about how taxes up to the poverty level are covered, please try living at that level for a month or two...) if you will support my "more than fair" tax that takes the form of a 1% yearly tax on weath and assets. You have your money because the citizens and infrastructure of this country made it possible, so we will take our "cut" and we will do it every year to provide an incentive to you to continue earning more money.
In the Netherlands, business have to file e-tax forms starting this month.
I tried to get some people to work on FOSS tax reporting software, but no-one was interested. "We'll use Windows," some said. "We'll use the online forms," others said. Ah, well.
(I did manage to get registered as a developer, though, but haven't done anything with it. So far, the online forms for VAT seem accessible enough.)
No one said the EU system was worse.
No one said the US system was better.
The simple matter of the fact is that we here in the US are too wrapped up in beurocratic nonsense to be able to figure out anything that simple. If it doesn't require us to fill out 42 forms, all in triplicate, then it must not work!
...Had this been an actual emergency, we would have fled in terror, and you would not have been informed.
That out of the way, there have been two big assertions made about the way e-file works, with varying degrees of veracity. I will address them each in turn.
Assertion 1.The IRS is prohibited by law from offering a free efile package (either web-based or PC based)
Sort of: This is a decision that is more or less up to Messers Bush and Snow, not Everson. In general, the US goverment doesn't like to compete against private industry based on two predictions about the goverment product:
Assertion 2.Lobbyists have kept a Free and Open solution from being offered by keeping the specifications secret and only allowing evil corporations to know how to submit returns.
False: The steps and specs are carefully hidden away in the brightly colored Pub 3112(pdf) and others, such as the equally shiny Pub 1345 (pdf)(The actual specs for the 1040 are in the dead-tree-only Pub 1346)
Exercise for the reader:
- Get some friends together and write a tax preparation package in whatever language and whatever license you want (No extra credit given for ironically titled packages written in Malbolge or Brainf--- and distributed under the new X11 License). Found an LLC under the laws of your state. File Forms 8832 and 2553 with the IRS to be recognized as a Subchapter S Corporation (as a measure to avoid the hassles and shared liabilities of being a partnership).
- Figure out the mysterious Step 2 (Hint: Getting recognized as an ERO, and coming up with a business model are likely involved)
- Profit!
----Note: If you have an unwavering faith in the idea that the IRS is evil, then you misunderstand. The IRS is a bureau. As a whole, the Service has absolutely no emotional investment in being either kind or unkind to the taxpayer. Everything the IRS does is prescribed in 26 USC by the Congress. If the law says charge a penalty, we charge it. If the law says grant credit interest on late refunds, we grant it. If the law required that each US Citizen send us a chicken in lieu of a 1040 (it doesn't), then we'd collect 'em. All the same to us.
It may not be just, but it is fair, and that is more important.
You can move the deductions around as well. When the UK had morgage interest relief it was called MIRAS and handled through the bank. Student loans aren't tax-deductible but you only have to repay them if you earn over a certain amount.
And of course we don't have to pay any medical expenses unless we want to go private, in which case it's not tax-deductible.
As of 1 Jan 2005 we should be able to get this out of the IR for free under the Freedom of Information Act.
See http://www.spy.org.uk/foia/ for more.
Why the hell should I pay to e-file when it's saving the IRS money? They don't have to pay someone to key in my data so they're saving money. They should pay me the savings or at least make e-filing free.
Your way is simpler and easier, but that doesn't necessarily make it better. For instance, here in the US, we have a deduction (basically a reduction in the amount of income you're taxed on) for interest paid on a loan for your primary residence. This helps encourage people to buy homes instead of rent, which is good for the economy. If the employer deducted everything and computed everything for you, how would you have a deduction that has nothing at all to do with the employer? It seems like the only choices are to either eliminate the deduction or to involve the employer in something that's none of his business. Also, what if you have two jobs?
Well, first of all, it's not 10-20%. VAT may be that high in Europe, but in the US it's typically about 8%. For example, in the State of Texas, it can vary in different local areas, but it's capped at 8.25% by law. So that's not nearly as much of a burden as if it were 10-20%. Second of all, it's not an inconvenience because we expect it. Coming from a country that doesn't have it, you're not in the habit of considering that tax will have to be added, and I'm sure when you get to the counter you're confused and surprised that you're being asked to pay more than the sum of the prices you saw. But to us, it's normal, so there is no such surprise.
Also, it's not that hard to compute the tax. Where I live, it's 8.25%, which is really close to (and, importantly, smaller than) 8.33%, so I know that the tax will never exceed $1 for every $12 I spend. Since most purchases I make aren't more than about $50, I can estimate the tax in my head easily. If dividing by 12 is too complicated, just take one tenth and you over estimate it a bit, but you still get a good guesstimate.
Finally, some organizations (such as churches) don't pay sales tax. So it's much easier for them if the tax isn't added, because they'd just have to subtract it again.
Doesn't KDE come with a calculator?
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
ONLY 6 people in the entire federal government are working on electronic filing? Are you fucking kidding me? No wonder it's a disaster and has gone absolutely nowhere in almost a decade. Can we hire another dozen or two, and crank out a java-based program by next year please? I mean shit, we spend a billion every few days in Iraq, what's a million to make life easier for half the country with PCs and an internet connection?
The knowledge is quite specialized
Would you mind telling me why "how to do" something 240 million people are required to do, is "quite specialized" knowledge?
What's the incentive for the government to push for something like this?
Surveys show people on average can end up spending 40 hours or more on preparing their taxes over a course of weeks. That's a pathetic waste of time.
How about the loss of revenue by mistakes from taxpayers? Cost of sending them "you fucked up your calculations" letters in the mail, etc? I know I wouldn't resent the whole process nearly as much if it was just simpler.
they'd be taking business away from companies
Aha- there we are...the truth of the matter comes out...an entire industry is threatened, and not just tax software companies- tax accountants and attorneys too...even though they represent an insignificant number of jobs, we need to complicate an entire nation's tax code and processes to keep them employed?
Did it occur to you that the federal government could directly employ these experts and programmers to produce a free program? There's no need for TurboTax, Quicken, etc to even exist.
Please help metamoderate.
I was there in 2000 and at the time didn't think the grocery prices were too bad (well, it wasn't Dublin either, so that may explain it). The prices seemed to be about the same as what they were at home after taking the currency conversion rate into account. I wouldn't mind living there if I could.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Gives RMS a rash, though.
So how will you be doing this year's taxes?
I won't. Instead, I'll pay x hundred $ for a kick-ass CPA, like I always do, who already forgot more about the tax laws than I'd ever want to know, who can handle my stock options and separate sole proprietorship and charitable contributions and new house interest and the fact that I just got married but didn't change my withholding . . .
I've come out in the black since I started using to my CPA, and I'll trade money for time any day.
In the US sales tax is disclosed separately from the product cose. Sales tax is generally less than 10%.
In the US, Sales tax on GAS specifically is always included in the price quoted by the station. The Gas tax is a federal ~18%, plus state tax that is usually at least 12%, for a total of >%30.
Do you think that's a coincidence?
Personally, I'd rather keep the fact that people have to be aware of how much taxes they are paying while buying products.
Throw the bums out!
The book that used to read:
"If you have medical deductions, fill out form S and enter your result on line 34a"
would become:
"Type your medical deduction amount and press [ENTER]."
Tax code is just an algorithm.
IF $MONTH = FEBUARY THEN GOTO 1040.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
IANAmerican Seriously a 30% tax on new purchases? That's a ridiculous amount.
I can't believe no one has mentioned the Tax Calculator. It uses Excel spreadsheets (which work in OpenOffice) for all schedules and most of the major supplemental forms to produce IRS forms with all the math done correctly. Don't download it now, but wait a month or so while the spreadsheet is being refined. It's probably the best tax software that works on all platforms, and it's completely free. As long as you can read IRS instructions, this works great.
That's true most of the time, but there's the occasional situation where you're wanting to buy a $4.59 item with a $5 bill in your pocket and an 8.25% sales tax. (Without a calculator, can you tell whether you can afford it?)
If you can deduct the cost of TurboTax to prepare your taxes, why not deduct the cost of a new computer to run the program to deduct your taxes?
I just spent 2600 on a new dell with windows xp, quicken 5 and turbo tax. I should deduct all of that right?
My compromise for fastest, cheapest and best tax filing, given the absence of open source software is: First I get the paperwork together. All year long I ensure each deduction is written on a sheet of paper and put in a tax box. That is 90% of the work. Next I fill out the federal and state returns in pencil by hand. Finally type in the numbers from the paper forms to TaxActOnline.com. The really important check point is: Ensure that the online tax bill agrees to the penny with the paper form. Then resume seeking a better and more peaceful truth beyond these morally vacant warmakers.
Actually, you're wrong. He wasn't talking about the US, he wasn't talking about the IRS, he was talking about the UK and the Inland Revenue.
Get a clue.
> Gives RMS a rash, though.
And this would be a bad thing because . . . ?
Here in Texas, the pumps all have a sign that reminds you that the combined federal and state taxes on the gas are 38.4 per gallon. I suppose there are people who never look at the sign, but they're probably the same people who never look at the "tax" line on their receipts when they go to the store, either.
And it would be a very unpopular move to price gas the way everything else is. A lot of people always buy a fixed dollar amount of gas, and it would be hard to pump $15 worth if you had to look for the display to show "$12.23".
Calculator executable + receipts + time.
If you have lots of investments and anything beyond a standard 1040, you should seek an accountant.
Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, START
You're right; such a policy wouldn't make any sense, which is probably the reason it is not the policy proposed by the FairTax. Rather, it proposes a rebate to all households equal to the amount of tax on spending up to the poverty line for said households' given situations (i.e. marital status, number of children, geographical location). This rebate could, in one implementation, take place easily via the employer, much like current payroll taxes only in reverse. So, when you get your paycheck, not only is it actually for the full amount of your wages (at least sans state income tax), it includes extra money for you to pay the taxes on your groceries and rent.
This provision of the FairTax is indeed what makes it "fair," but it's also its most complicated aspect, ensuring that the FairTax will probably never come to bear.
I know that I am off topic, but your email isn't listed publicly, and I wanted to ask you a few questions about your franchise. Would you be so kind as to email me at jyamisha@h o t m a i l-dot.com?
i want to live life, not just go through the motions
Yeah, Illinois hits me for 3% income on top of the 8.75% sales tax.
I would gladly pay an extra 1% sales tax, if I could have Tennessee style housing prices.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
In most states, gas taxes aren't a percentage of the selling price. The federal gas tax is 18.4 cents/gal, and here in Texas the state gas tax is 20 cents/gal.
This is a terrible system, because it means that gas tax revenue does not keep up with inflation.
It's called freedom. We're trying to hold on to some modicum of it as long as we can.
A VAT tax is the kind of simplification that would allow a radical simplification of the income tax.
Richard Nixon floated the idea of a VAT tax for the United States.
VAT is used in Europe. VAT is where each seller collects the VAT tax on her sales and deducts the VAT paid buying stuff for sale. Governments like it because it tends to be "self collecting". It gets revenue from the formerly "underground" economy. It can get revenue from trans national corporations that manipulate "transfer payments" to shift profits offshore.
As a previous poster has noted, the tax system needs an XML data structure and an XML description of the algorithms for the computation of tax.
I've daydreamed like this: Divide the task into an algorithm part and a sample data part. A python root module would emulate the "1040" form. All the child forms would be separate Python Modules corresponding to each schedule or tax form. The XML tagged test data would be included with each package of modules. The package of algorithms plus data would be GPG signed.
This scheme allows free and professional tax applications to co-exist. It enables modular development. It creates credible test data that can be used to cross validate alternate tax packages. It enables trusted open source.
In Brazil, the Brazilian Federal Inland Revenue distributes, free of charge, a Windows "tax return" application (version for individuals, though the version for corporations is also available for download, too - it just happens to use other forms and it has a different timetable).
P F/2004/progIRPF2004multiplataforma.htm . DISCLAIMER: BRAZILIAN PORTUGUESE!
In 2003 they started a new branch of such application, in Java, which can be used in Windows, Linux, Mac, Solaris, OS2 etc. They even make it available in different download formats. It is quite a good solution.
Brazilian citizens are required to download it, fill it in and transmit it via web. If one needs to pay more taxes than he/she has paid during a certain year, a certain form is printed and used for a payment through the banking system (on-line or not); If one is entitled to getting back some cash (paid more than he/she should have), the Inland Revenue makes a deposit in your bank account in few months.
There is no fee for using the software. Actually, this would be a strange concept for Brazilians: the concept is to make it easier for people to use the electronic forms (there is still the paper ones, but less and less people use it), among other reasons, for making the tax collector's lives easier (i.e., processing the information faster, the data comes already 'formatted', easier to detect 'frauds' etc). After all, tax returns are meant for tax collecting purposes...
People can also use web forms available in the website (haven't tried those though), or the 'telephone declarations' (yep, through call centers, though these ones seem almost always busy close to the deadlines).
For the curious ones, the link is http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/PessoaFisica/IR
PS: Sorry for the English!
I use TurboTax, and have for many years. Instead of paying the extortion for online filing, I just print out the forms and mail them in. Sure it takes a little longer to get your refund, but you get $30 or so more back.
Isn't theory a great place? Everything works in theory.
Nowhere in the world is higher education free. While there are countries where students do not get a tuition bill in the mail, they are paying for it in the form of taxation, whether they benefit from it or not...
At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
Alan Greenspan
"The hidden benefits of the system are that it encourages savings, removes the complexities of the system that allow for corruption and waste, and collects large amounts of money from the underground markets, where no taxes are currently being collected."
Well that settles the federal part. Now you only have a couple more levels to deal with. Also (weither you believe in it or not). Revenue isn't the only reason for taxation. It's also a social tool. Say for example the tax rebates you'd get if you weatherized your house. Or put in a backyard nuclear reactor. Or just ate healthier.
"IF $MONTH = FEBUARY THEN GOTO 1040."
*scoffs* That's just like the IRS...always writing spaghetti code!
> Tax Time Again: Any Linux Solutions
...wait for it...
Of course! Any home computer with Linux on it may immediately be written off as a home business expense.
It sure isn't being used for games.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
As a little factoid, in Japan, most of the time tax is included up front on the product's price tag.
You're asking the wrong question. Better questions are: Why do you have to file tax returns at all? Why is our tax system so complicated? Why does it cost so much to comply tax code and regulations?
Last year I spent hours crunching through my taxes using turbo tax. I tried really hard to get it all right, but in the end, I'm not honestly 100% sure that I did. Well I think the answer is here at fairtax.org. Basically it all comes down to 3 words "National Sales Tax". Then the linux software problem goes away
My Weblog
Lots of people tell you that lots of things are deductable - but you must keep in mind that things that must be itemized to be deducted (like tax preparation software) really are not deductable AT ALL unless the TOTAL amount of all your itemized deductions exceeds your standard deduction. And even then, you're really only getting to "deduct" the amount in excess of the standard deduction.
For example, my standard deduction is around $4,250. If I don't spend ANY money on tax-deductible items, I can still deduct $4,250.
If I spend $5,000 instead, how much of that do I get to deduct?
$750.
For most people, "tax-deductable" items are NOT really tax deductable, because most people can't afford to spend enough money on tax deductable things to actually exceed their standard deduction.
paintball
but our payments are now tax deductable. /interest/ on your payments is now tax deductable.
WRONG. The
Be very carefull on this one. You'll end up getting audited, and fscked with your pants on.
First-Class Mail $0.60
Certified $2.30
Return Receipt $1.75
Total Cost: $4.65
That's $4.65 IF your mailing weighs 2oz or less. It's $0.83 for 3oz of First-Class mail, bringing the total to $4.88.
Let's assume that for whatever reason you want to get your package to the IRS faster than standard First-Class mail provides (maybe you want your return ASAP). Priority mail costs $3.85 up to 16oz. 17oz is jumps to $3.95.
What does all this mean? It means that only a fool would attempt to send their US Federal Tax Returns with $0.37. The good news is that your mailing expenses for processing your return (including paying a CPA to do it and the costs to mail it in) are tax deductable. What? You didn't keep those receipts? Shame on you.
http://www.freefile.co.uk
You might actually look at the front page of irs.gov before posting about them protecting profit margins.
Bush sets up panel for tax code changes Ideas for `essential task' due in summer
Now's your chance to save up the two cents you dropped here, and spend it were it'll do some good.
straight fomr the us consititution
Article 1 section 2
Clause 3: Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers (census)
the income tax is vountary
i dont pay it
If we had a flat tax or got rid of deductions, then the need to file would be almost nonexistent.
The same would be true if we replaced our horrible income tax scheme with a federal sales tax.
It is useful to note that if Ireland were to join the United States, it would become the twenty-seventh largest state (just behind Kentucky, or behind Puerto Rico if it were a state). The parent poster has perhaps not fully considered that a tax record-keeping scheme which could be efficiently operated in one small state might not scale up to a nation one hundred times the size of Ireland.
All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
- any
PDF printer on the market? I mean a printer that understands PDF directly, not to be confused with proprietary PC converter software ("reader"), or a more or less working open source replica. Personally I am sick and tired of mixed results, not to mention that the converters blow up the data size easily by a factor of 20 (e.g. PDF to PS). And that keeps a printer busy for several minutes per page. It's not the fault of the printer's format, it's this stupid conversion from PDF. Years ago people were quite happy when PostScript showed up. But apparently did not like the idea that other parties would implement the PostScript language, too. The PC market gave them the perfect opportunity to monopolize the market with constant updates. Problem is that printer manufacturers cannot play this game. Too bad for Adobe. But why does the IRS play favors for Adobe? Is everybody happy with Adobe's update games and endless security problems (see security focus, bugtraq)? Is the IRS just following a stupid idea? Stupid ideas, especially PC ideas, do spread like the plague.I don't know where these other "350 million Europeans" are living, but here in Germany it's pretty much the same as the US.
Money is withheld from your pay, and then once a year you file your taxes to see if you overpaid or underpaid during the year, and throw in any other deductions or credits that you're eligible for.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
You don't need a PDF editor to fill in the forms electronically. Adobe's reader (I've only tried the Windows version; not sure about the Linux version) will let you type in the fields and save and print the results.
. html.
You can get the forms at http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/lists/0,,id=97817,00
Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny. Free men pull in all kinds of directions. It's the only way to mak
I've used TurboTax in the past, but switched back to pen & paper. The last time we used TurboTax was probably three years ago, but turned into a huge waste of time.
It blue-screened no less than three times on me, each time when being nearly done entering all relevant info, so I could start from scratch again... On a normally rock-solid computer that I don't recall every blue-screening on me otherwise. Never got it to finish the job, so had to resort to the pen & paper version in the end anyway.
Anyway, big waste of time & the money for TurboTax, so the next year we didn't even bother with the electronic versions, and just stuck with the paper.
Now add to that the bad press due to the unasked MBR modifications.
I don't forsee using the electronic filing again any time soon.
You actually have to work out your own taxes?
You see, I don't have these worries.. I am still a kid
I also had been fiddling with Python scripting under Gnumeric. I found it very educational (both from a tax and a Gnumeric/Python perspective) to get out Form 1040, its schedules and their instructions (as well as analogs for my state) and put together a Gnumeric spreadsheet and Python scripts necessary to run to calculations. (I ended up with something useful for my purposes, but not suitable for further publication.)
The use of Gnumeric, of course, prevents one from getting bogged down in the GUI aspect of it, yet provides a very understandable and dynamic interface (certainly snappier than anything http/html based).
For people who do not have home businesses or other unusual deductions, tax calculation is not too difficult. I find that gathering the raw data (a step which a tax program or a tax adviser can't really help one with) is the biggest hassle. For most people (even those with a house and some investments), the necessary data is limited to:
- Form W-2 from employer.
- Form 1099's from banks and brokers regarding investment income.
- Mortgage interest statement from mortgage bank (if you have a house and mortgage).
- State Real eststs tax assessment (if you have a house).
- State tax refund amount from prior year (Form 1099-G) (if you got a refund -- otherwise, the amount of additional state tax paid in the prior year).
- Receipts from charitable donations.
If one has deductible business or medical expenses (and, as others point out, these expenses do not become deductible until they surpass a percentage-of-income test) or is self-employed, things could become much more complicated. Otherwise, one's entire federal tax is generally dependent upon only a dozen or so "arguments".A couple problems with IRS forms:
- In order to make the forms simple for non-mathematically inclined and to produce intermediate results that have tax law significance, things are often done in a very ass-backwards fashion that would be annoying to a typical Slashdotter (e.g., "use A to calculate X, B to calculate Y, then subtract Y from X to get Z", rather than "use A and B to calculate Z").
- Results from Federal tax "worksheets", prior year results or state tax returns are necessary for certain calculations, thus the surface area of the problem is a little greater than one would think. There are also a few somewhat circular dependencies (e.g., the amount of your itemized deduction is cut back based on your adjusted gross income).
- Every year the rules change a bit (not too much, but someone would need to check) and the data tables would need to be updated. I do not know how far in advance these are typically finalized and published -- updating could become quite a race.
- Because of the interdependency on state and federal tax returns, one needs also to put together a program for your state of choice.
If I pursued the project further, it probably would not have been too difficult to transition over to PyGtk. One other thing that could be considered is having the program pull up the applicable IRS forms, and perhaps a panel that would contain, for each Item, some explanatory text and an area for the user's notes. One would also want have the program make the electronic filing.Bottom line: I would encourage inspired /.'ers to give Gnumeric/Python a try as a RAD enviroment for tax calculation.
Again, if it were buried in the price, I'm sure we'd gladly pay but since it's obvious, it helps keep government spending down.
That's a good point! However, it would still be much more consumer-friendly to advertize BOTH pre-tax and final prices so that it becomes clear even before you buy something.
In some EU countries a while ago, some gasoline stations protested against horrendous taxe rates (80% is common there) by displaying both the final price (as they always do) AND (that was new) the pre-tax price. The uproar among customers was very noticeable. Unfortunately, they didn't generate enough pressure on their governments to cut back gasoline prices, so it's not always working.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
So how come the documentation and XML Schemas are published (for free) on the IR's website? Developer registration and use of the developer test service is free - where are these "subscription charges" you allude to?
I'll use the free online service provided by my country's department of treasury. All I need to get started is the certificate that was also provided for free.
Read the bill. HR25 is the bill in the house. It has answers to all of these complaints. It would eliminate the IRS. Businesses spend almost $500 billion just complying with the current tax code. You would no longer have 15% of your paycheck lost in the black hole of social security. For all you anti outsourcing people, the US would become the largest tax haven in the world. Companies would be setting up factories in the US. Job would be created in large numbers in the US. Read the bill and get informed before you say how bad it is. The only people against will be lobbyists who help companies get preferential treatment by manipulating the tax code.
I loaded the pdf files into GIMP, specifying a 600dpi resolution, and "filled in the blanks" as if I was editing an image file. You'll need at least 256MB of RAM to do this - a 600dpi image file is huge - and you'll still use some swap, but it works. When you load the pdf into GIMP make sure you only load/edit/save one page at a time or you'll run out of RAM!
Although you can save the edited file as a pdf there really isn't much point to it because once GIMP converts the pdf to a bitmap format for editing that's the only way it can save it. Anyhow, once you're done editing, save the file in a format that your printer can handle (I use png with compression 9), then lpr it to your printer.
The only drawback to this technique is that you'll have one edited image file for each page of your 1040 and the total disk space required for all of the image files will be huge compared to that of the original pdf. For example, last year's entire 1040 pdf was 176K, whereas one page of that pdf, edited and saved as a png file, was 632K.
Error:
I used to have an employee who had previously worked on the IRS' e-file program. He said the IRS collects and saves A LOT more information in the e-file process than they do in the paper process. And of course it saves the IRS a lot of scanning/processing expense. My feeling is that if the IRS wants me to do something to save them money and help them collect/save more information on me, I'll only do it for a discount on my taxes. That won't happen, so I'll forever send in paper. (I can wait a few extra weeks for a refund.)
Spoken like a true AC trolling Slashdot 20 minutes after finishing playing Counterstrike:Source while jerking off to pictures of his little sister...
i went and tried out this site on os x and it told me that safari wouldn't fit the bill
The Volunteer Income Tax Assistance Program the IRS runs is pretty nice. Most of the time you do simple 1040's with a standard deduction, but the best part is by helping out here you also learn by do other peoples taxes and their unique situations. Depending on where you are you can get an IRS employee who trains a group pf people on the Pub 17 and some other issues like Earned Income Credit, Child Tax credit, and my favorite-the life time learning credit. Besides all this if you get in a group, you are provide access to computer with their software-and that is the jewel, all the calculations are done for you and any form needed pops up. Any how this whole experience has encouraged me to learn about taxes and learn how to pay them. I mean essentially you learn how the law applies to you and what you can do within the laws.
This is my "hobby" to help people with their taxes and also help them get more money back too. If most people would only read the pub 17 once and then keep up with the updates every year you would learn so much, and you could also help so much! If possible help as many people as you can, it's one type of community service that helps you and the people too.
Once you read into taxes you will understand why the rich get richer and how many of the tax laws are written to help...the congressmen and women in Washington D.C.
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
Do all you need for under $20.
When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law he tore his robes.2Kings22:11
While I still do many home improvement projects, When a major repair is needed, I call in a guy who knows what he's doing and pay him. And my DIY days are over forever for two things in particular: cars and tax prep. No more crawling under the car to change the oil when I can just pay $22 to have it done in about 30 minutes. And no more killing a Saturday preparing taxes when I can just pay my accountant about $125. I'm in and out of his office in about 20 minutes, the cost is deductable, he e-files for me, and I always get a refund. It's almost a pleasure. There's also the added bonus of being able to call him year-round with tax implication questions, usually for no charge.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
In Finland this works and we even have progressive income tax. Every year the government mails us tax cards that shows how much the employer should take out from the paycheck so that we don't have to pay any extra taxes. You then give this paper to your employer (if you havent done that then he will have to take 40+% tax from the paycheck). If you get a raise, extra deductions etc, you can always call the tax office and they'll calculate you a new card. Very simple and efficient.
- Raynet --> .
...which keep my sister-in-law from dying of her medical conditions. I can't afford them, and neither can her mother. Government money, medicare and welfare, is the only way she gets the care that she needs.
Yeah, there used to be no income tax, but there also used to be slavery, too.
Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
...but filing taxes on my own was a novelty that I've already experienced. Now I pay an accountant to do it. And if you really want me to blow your mind, other than contacting him via email to request an appointment, no general purpose computers are used in the process (by me).
Yes, I also pay bills with hand-written checks and mail them back by USPS mail.
As an American, I actually think it's better that people are forced to see the sales tax as something that's added onto the cost of goods. If the tax was made a part of the base price of the item, then the government would be free to raise it with little reprocussion because most people wouldn't realize that the price went up because of a change in taxes. But in the U.S., everyone sees the cost of sales tax on their purchases. Maybe that's why the VAT is 10-20% and most (if not all) sales tax rates in the U.S. are less than 10% (mine is 6%).
The same could be said of income tax withholding (where your employer takes part of your paycheck and sends it to the government every pay period). If every April, everyone in the U.S. had to write multi-thousand (or more likely, multi-ten-thousand) dollar check, taxes would be much lower. It would be even better if that bill was somehow able to be due right in the middle of tax season. But that will never happen, since the Federal government is much too addicted to our money to ever change.
So, from my point of view, the least amount of taxes (without sacrificing essential government services) is the most fair and consumer-friendly. And hiding taxes from people only leads to higher taxes (and government bloat), so I much prefer the American system.
"Save the whales, feed the hungry, free the mallocs" -- author unknown
One for all, and all for one!
Communism is basically, everyone works for the common good, and none are considered arbitrarily better than any other. Unfortunately, every government(so far) which espouses communism betrays these two principles almost as soon as it forms.
For a true communist society to work, you can't have any crooks. Everyone must be mindlessly moral, to the point where(for instance) they could have a common bank account, and nobody would even think of taking out $60k to get a nicer car for themselves. Theoretically, your communist society can be of any size. However, the larger it grows, the more crooks will sneak in, who will exploit the honest people and function as leeches, disrupting the system.
Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
You'd think that the Linux people, who believe it's Evil to pay for anything, wouldn't bother to pay their taxes!
on an unrelated note:
If you don't pay AMT, you are a "lucky ducky" and have NO RIGHT to COMPLAIN about taxes.
> all you American folk still have to fill in your own tax returns; surely our way is better?
The IRS tax return is the mechanism we use to allow rich people to escape paying income tax.
Initially the IRS wanted to just develop its own tax-prep software in-house. The tax-prep industry (H&R Block, Intuit, Jackson Hewitt, etc.) got wind of this and screamed bloody murder about it -- what would free filing available directly through the IRS do their business?
A deal was eventually struck whereby the tax-prep companies agreed to offer free filing to lower-income filers (and I believe the income ceiling rises each year until the 80% target's met). In return, the IRS agreed not to develop competing tax-prep software and to allow the tax-prep folks to bombard you with ads for additional services which you would pay for.
Essentially what the story submitter complains about as the IRS "protecting its partners" was the IRS' bid to get us free electronic filing at all in the face of what would have been concerted legal and political resistance from a very wealthy industry.
Personally I'd rather see the IRS say "blow it out your asses, tax industry. We require Americans to do this, it's only fair that we allow them to do it electronically for free since that saves us time, money and manpower anyway." But for now this is a good first step.
-- Old Man Kensey
I would gladly pay an extra 1% sales tax, if I could have Tennessee style housing prices.
The reason Tennessee has Tennessee-style housing prices is because, well, it's Tennessee. You can't have those prices without all the other crap -- black church burning, and governors having to veto attempts by the state legislature to make teaching science illegal, and so on -- as well. Are you still interested in the deal?
Like I said - I would trade the sales tax for not having to pay $300,000 for a 2 bedroom condo. If anything else has to be lumped in, deal is off - except, well, if you wanted to trade your governor for ours (soulless machine bastard that he is) I might consider it. And I don't even know anything *about* your governor, except that he isn't Blagojevich.
(In other words, I recognize that the reason I have to pay that much money for real estate is because I live somewhere worth living, but you can't blame me for occasionally wishing I could afford to buy a house.)
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
Yes, if you work in the US for a company or government and get paid a salary, your taxes---approximated---are taken out of your paycheck and paid to the Federal and State tax authorities.
If your situation is as simple as you describe in the EU (no business, no substantial other income, no substantial deductions), the US tax forms are extremely simple.
Of course, many people gain significant income via their own businesses, for example consulting or other activities. And there you have to be honest and say what you made and calculate what you owe. In fact you are obligated to pay "estimated" taxes every quarter based on that quarter's income.
In either case (working for company or yourself), if at the end of the year, your detailed tax return shows you owe substantially more than what you already paid---either by estimated tax payments or by automatic withholding---you will pay an additional penalty.
At the end of the year when you submit your tax form, you will reconcile all the possible deductions and extra taxes you might owe.
For example, if you make money during the year on your stock market investments and sell during that year, you will incur tax on that. Your brokerage does not usually submit witheld money from this for US residents, but it does tell the tax authorities how much you sold, when, and what the proceeds were.
When you fill out your tax forms you have to reconcile this too.
Tax-inclusive prices in the EU are more consumer-friendly on the calculation. The argument used against this here is that (1) taxes vary by locality (2) by building the tax rate into the price it makes tax increases easier politically.
Considering you are perhaps the least taxed industrialized nation in the world, I would count my blessings, suck it up and buy turbo tax, and then go buy my honking SUV with my nice big refund :D.
:).
The Europeans simply won't be able to gather how things can get so complicated because they most likely don't have nearly as many deductions as those in the USA (mortgage/car interest, depreciation for various assets etc).
In any event....I only wish here in Canada we had the tax system you guys in the USA have. I'll take the extra $$$ along with some extra complexity any day
Rich...
Americans hate a hidden tax, thus the reason for tax preparation and advertising the price not including tax. It is purely psychological
In Brazil the goverment also provides a way for people to fill their tax forms eletronically and most people (more than 70%) do it this way.
There is a MS-Windows only app and a Java-based applications that runs nicely on Linux.
-- SouNerd.com
I don't understand how this could work. Your tax bracket depends on the *total* amount you make. If you have two jobs, how can each job take the appropriate amount out of your paycheck? What about deductions and loopholes and all that crazy stuff? It seems to me like you'd have to do just as much paperwork, but spread out in little chunks throughout the year instead of once at tax time. (Who wants to have to file a "my mother is sick; she is now a dependant" form and then a year later file to say "my mother just died; she's no longer a dependant", while still having to deal with the emotionals? Much better to just either put her on you yearly tax form or leave her off.) The way it works here in Canada is that they do some half-assed calculations when you start a job to decide how much to take off (by giving them employee a form to fill in where you estimate how much you'll make from other sources and things). I've never in my life bothered to fill the form in correctly, so they always take off the base amount and then at tax time I discover whether I owe a chunk or get a chunk refunded. (It's usually been a refund since I was in school and had massive tuition to claim until recently. If I were smart I'd arrange it so I always owe at tax time so at least I can earn interest on the money in the meantime, but I'm lazy.)
Canada in the 80's introduced the GST, the most hated tax ever. It was a large factor in completely destroying the Conservative party - which is a shame because, although it's a pretty bad tax, it's better than the horrible hidden tax that it replaced. The weird thing is, the government mandated by law that you couldn't hide the tax in the price - meaning any time a consumer bought anything, they'd see the hated words GST at the bottom of their sales slip and remember how badly the government "screwed them over". I can't figure out why they'd do that, considering how much it cost them.
You should try this online tax service: it's free, it's in Java, it's secure. Oh yeah, BTW, it's French! The service isn't open just at the moment, but I wrote about it least year: http://bubbalogic.blogspot.com/2004/03/irs-before- getting-started.html
An OS Independent Tax Program that works well with Offical IRS PDF filesv er/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/opentaxsol
you may want to mod this up as it goes directly to the users orig question.
h tml
The IRS does have a free e-file option. Link here http://www.irs.gov/efile/article/0,,id=118986,00.
I asked the "Linux tax prep software" question on Slashdot back in '99, and the answers haven't changed much: http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/99/12/16/1921248.s html
Then as now, the only "real" software tax prep game in town is of the TaxCut / TurboTax variety, under Windows. I don't want my data to go anywhere but my PC and the IRS, so web solutions aren't for me.
I intend to (once again) see if my favorite package (TaxCut) will work under Wine+Linux. I don't have much hope: While Wine continues to improve, the tax packages seem to bloat to use ever more APIs, making success unlikely.
Has anyone tried this already?
- Bob Cunningham
Compare the vast possibilities:
Citizen of District of Columbia (stomped and disbanded)
federal (Congress) Citizen
citizen of the United States (14th Amendment)
Citizen of the United States of America (Admiralty)
state Citizen (by right)
Citizen of a state (on duty)
American inhabitant (nobility)
American Citizen (original, communis lex)
According to organization, states were all for-profit corporations of Britain. The people are nobility and the states can't create people under obvious reasons. "America" is hebrew word meaning "people" and you don't see anything called "America of the United States", but you see the perdition beknownst "The People of the United States" or "The People of the State of California" California is of America, "Congress" created "State of California" and joined it to the United States while the people (America) joined California to the United States of America.
Then there are instruments...CALIFORNIA instrumentalized by California. UNITED STATES instrumentalized by the bastard childs in District of Columbia.
Some resources you may want to check out before filing this year - electronically or otherwise: http://anon.taxableincome.speedera.net/861Evidence /index.html
http://www.freedomabovefortune.com/
http://www.hearliberty.com/
http://www.truthintaxation.us/
http://www.givemeliberty.org/
500 Comments on here, and I can't believe not a single person has mentioned Turbo Tax and product activation. I dropped Turbo Tax when they pulled that bogus stunt, and never looked back.
Now I use Tax Cut for federal, and do my state by hand. Wishing there was a Linux solution, too, though. The only things which cause me to keep a windows partition around at all are games, and tax software - that's it. Everything else I need, Linux has been supplying for years.
In Malaysia, the government has setup a webtool to help the tax payers to calcute income tax payable.
All Sun really needs to do is dust off their old SPARC 5 and recompile the Linux version for Solaris. I doubt it has many Linux-specific calls.
http://www.fairtax.org
In Brazil, where we've being doing e-forms since 1999; the sofware provided by the IRS itself.
r am asPF.htm
:)
The official software ('programa') is found at the IRS' download page:
http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/Download/Prog
under
"DIRPF - Declaração do Imposto de Renda de Pessoa Física".
Note last year we had a Java (multi-platafform) version.
The software calculates your taxes and, when complete, it uses its own applet to encrypt and upload the form to the IRS server, once you're connected. Sending back the printable receipt (with day and upload hour).
Quite convenient.
20% we pay 22, or 23 not sure which in the UK. How do we put up with it? Because you aren't all selfish fucking arseholes like you lot in the US.
This is pretty impressive. Better than I would have expected. Check it out!!!
Be that as it may, there are still solutions like VMware that eliminate this problem. And VMware is not all that expensive these days.
Join Tor today!
In other words, some (but not all) taxpayers can file electronicly for free provided they send their personal financial data to some third party they have no reason to trust that has no rational reason to be involved in the first place. (I wonder, what do these free file companies do with all that data?)
Sorry, I'd rather maintain my privacy and use the dead tree snail mail version.
I am one of the P's of an LLC, which does some filing (other then taxes) for people. I'd say experience is the main factor here. If you are able spend some time learning about specific filing , you might have a good chance of getting it done by yourself & saving some money. The solution is very often much easier then it looks like. But be ready to make quite a few phone calls & to read a bunch of articles on the subject. How ever the professional filers often know the "shortcuts" & using this knowledge they often can save you considerable amounts of your money or/end time. This is how the economy works, we turn our specific knowledge into our profit. Same as pizza guy charges me for a good pizza. I personally believe that it feels better to pay somebody for a good service & then to be realizing what the tax-paid-wellfare is used for, then looking at it's consumers doing drugs & generating a kid each year, hahhaha while you "cann't afford another kid".
One example.. 18th. If that wasn't on a whim, due to a small group of fanatics then I don't know what is.
And it serves my example perfectly of the power that idiots have to change the fabric of this country on a whim. Another easy example will be when the 'anti gay marriage' amendment comes back into debate..
Tearing it down? . tearing down a creation they felt was 'right' and would stand the test of time? No, they would have never conceived of anyone tearing down their creation.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If everyone in the country filled in the forms with a pencil, what could they do about it?
And what is your reason for not wanting to use a pencil to fill out the form?
I pay about $1K to my tax guy every year (my wife and I have fairly complex taxes). It's money well spent. Turbotax can save me from reading 500 pages of IRS publications every year (as I used to do), but it can't tell me that my perfectly legal deduction in category A would draw unwanted attention but that it could also fit into category B, which never would have occurred to me. On average, I'd say that my tax guy has paid for himself by finding 20% more in stuff I would have missed than what he charges me.
BTW, I do use Linux. In true Unix fashion, my financial records are flat ASCII files. A few awk scripts and Makefiles put them together into summaries categorized by type of expense. I print the summaries using enscript and hand the result to the tax guy, who has gotten used to my oddness. He highlights income in one color, deductions in another, takes the sheet, and sends me a return to sign a week later. It's as smooth as can be.
And he didn't have to do his fucking taxes. Maybe your time is worthless, but mine is not.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
Try this. Call your best credit card issuer and ask for their best rate on access to your available cash. Ask them again if that is their best rate. Keep asking until they go no lower. I got a $30k loan at 3.9%+$50 in "closing costs" for 10 minutes of haggling. Good luck getting that kind of a deal on a mortgage, and this loan isn't even secured against the property!
And before you bitch that my interest isn't tax-deductible, it was an investment property, so you're damned right the interest is tax-deductible as an ordinary and customary business expense.
Still think I need my head examined? I love credit cards!
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
We pay tons of taxes down here in Brasil too, but at least our government gives the software for free, it is Win32 based (heard there is a Java version). Actually the software is available for quite a long time (remember even the DOS versions of it). We are giving our money away, why shouldn't we at least have an easy way to do it??
Besides this there is an special online version of it aimed at low income people that only need to do that to keep their IRS id number active (so they can make loans, etc.). During the tax season these folks go to open offices and spent less than 10 minutes...usually there are attendants that help for doing task.
www.goodwill.org
Give them a call, I think some people there will do them for free.
Insider time from my father.
Peace.