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Advice for Returning to School After Long Break?
arohann asks: "A few months ago, I quit my secure, well-paying (but boring) job as a software engineer in India and have been applying to graduate schools in the US, Canada and the UK. My aim is to get back to computer engineering studies (my undergrad major) as a grad student. However, after a 5 year break from academics I'm not sure about my decision and could do with some advice from Slashdot users."
"Here are some of the things that I'd like to know:
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
Step 1: Have a tech job outsourced to you, forcing someone else to find a way to get back into school. Step 2: Ask them how they did it. Step 3: Expect an answser. Step 4: Profit!
Americans want to get out of school and into the workplace and Indians want to get out of the workplace and back in school.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.
Mature students have pretty good track records. What they may lack or have forgotten in skills, they make up for in attitude and general savvy.
So don't be intimidated. Sure, you'll have some catching up to do, but it won't be that onerous.
1. Start drinking now to build up a tolerance. 2. If you're married, get divorced; your marriage will not survivce. 3. Lot's O' Condoms. 4. Did I mention drinking? 5. ??? 6. Profit!
Don't be a looter...and yes, I know that it's spelled with an "A" instead of an "E".
You quit your job and then you are asking the question? Nice work.
I recently graduated from a bachelors degree and went out looking for a school to get a Master's from... Unfortunately when I went out, a lot of the schools requested that I got work experience first... So dont forget to mention that you've been WORKING for five years, it really will help you get in.
-Bill
I just completed a professional degree program after several years away from school. Here are a few nuggets of advice:
Good luck, and make sure to do all the readings and homework this time around.
This thread can't end well.
First step, stop lying:
A few months ago, I quit my secure, well-paying (but boring) job as a software engineer
Second step, if that really is the truth, you're clearly not bright enough to go back to school.
However, I have to say as a piece of advice, that you are wasting your time going to grad school in CS unless your intent is to be a professor or a heavy researcher. I think the best graduate degree for a CS undergrad is probably an MBA, at least as far as earning potential. If your interests are purely theoretical and money is not something you ultimately desire out of your career, then by all means continue.
I'd follow the example of the master.
"Maybe later you could help me straighten out my Longfellow."
- Thornton Melon
If you study in Canada, you'll have to deal with irritating Canadains and that could just really suck.
A little more seriously, I envy you. I would much rather spend my time learning instead of dealing with a job but unfortunately, I don't think thats ever going to happen.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Now that you're done with it, of course...
However, after a 5 year break from academics I'm not sure about my decision and could do with some advice from Slashdot users.
and you will immediately do the exact opposite, I presume?
--
You have been warned once. Do not touch my danish again.
Many US grad schools offer night time and weekend classes. You need to find a job here and then go to school in your off time. That's how I got my Masters, though not in CompSci.
Having a job will give you money to fund your own small research projects, buy books/hardware, and contacts that can help you answer questions when you're stumped. It's also a much better way to have a job after graduation.
Is it just me, or did some genius just post a troll on the main page?
Usually in fields such as electrical engineering, students are encouraged to go out and get 2-5 years work experience before returning to school for a masters or phd. Your work experience is not a liability at all - it is an asset to understand how things are really done in the world. You also know what work is really like, so the courseload at a regular university should be bearable. Personally, I think that disciplines that do not encourage people to spend a few years in the work environment before getting post graduate degrees are going to produce a lot of pie in the sky thinkers who can't cut it in real life.
I submitted this story last night, and it didn't get posted.
Two years ago, I did what you did. I left my good paying job as a project manager at a high tech firm to go back to engineering school. It was scary but well worth it! To answer your questions:
;). I spent a few months doing a major review of everything I thought would be necessary to get me to the level where I should be if I were just coming out of undergrad. I also found that I wasn't as quick as some of the younger students in my lab, but what I lacked in speed, I made up in discipline and focus. :)
1. For graduate admissions, at least at Carnegie Mellon, they send the files over to the professors based on your interests. The professors then look at your background to see if you are a good fit. In my case, they considered both my academic background as well as my industry experience. In fact, my industry experience helped me.
2. Not sure about US vs. UK vs. Canada, but what I can tell you is that a M.S. in engineering is more than sufficient if you only want to work in industry. A Ph.D. is good if you want to teach and if you want to lead a research team.
3. The biggest problem I had was all in the mental realm. I forgot most of what I learned in undergrad (all that funky calculus stuff, physics, etc
YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!
We can't get rid of Bush, so we beat up the Indians......
Get used to it, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
In the UK you can fund an MSc with a career development loan, the government pays the interets on this for the duration of your course. But after you graduate it attracts commercial rates and is due within 5 years. Not sure if foreign students can get these or not.
PHD/MPhill are often funded by grants from universities, government, industry etc. These are tax free and cover both maintenance and tution. If your not able to get one of these you'll need to come up with the money yourself, either by working part time, your family/friends/savings or by borrowing it. Foreigners should have no problems applying for grants, but places will go for those with the best ability (.
Tutition for either of these is usually about £3k per year for a UK/EU student. Not sure if it differs for non UK/EU.
MEng degrees are undergraduate courses usually lasting 4 years (often with a year in industry as a compulsory, so 5 years in that case). I'm currently in the final year of one of these but find the stuff being taught is not focused on technologies, but on methods and software engineering principles.
I hate to use a cliché, but... Just do it(TM)
After you gather all of this information, do something useful with it. I remember being in college and having a classmate who was in his early seventies. He had been a successful businessman, but had never earned his degree. So instead of spending his retirement playing shuffleboard and bingo, he chose to challenge himself and accomplish something.
It's never too late to go back.
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
I don't know how many grad professors actually expected me to know this after never using in the 8 years since i learned it.
I didn't know anyone who could give recommendations (all my professors had either moved on or retired), so I went back to my old school as a master's student for 1 year, impressed the profs, and got recommendations which (together with decent SATs) got me into Purdue.
I found that living on a small income was hard, but the studying was actually easier than it had been the first time through. In particular, math was easier to learn. That was a good thing, since econ and stats take more and different math than undergraduate EE.
I never finished my Ph.D (I'm ABD), but I did get an MS in Statistics along the way, and I'm working as an economist. Finishing would have been do-able, but didn't seem worth the cost in student loan debt and time.
If you can get accepted at a school, you can do it, if you can fund it. If they aren't offering you an assistantship with free tuition and a stipend of more than $10,000 per year, keep looking. Schools recruit undergrads, they hire graduate students.
See what I've been reading.
don't go back to school simply to get another degree and cram books. enjoy the college life - go to sporting events, cultural events, join student groups... etc. if you are indian, find a way to acclimate without losing your indian roots. be part of the college community. of course, you should always work hard in classes, but don't let it become an obsession. don't become another stereotypical "foreign graduate student." that's a waste...
You're not a doctor or a lawyer. School is a complete waste.
Call your old boss up and ask/beg for your job back.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Why do so many Indians go outside of their country to seek higher education?
I'm not knocking it all (and if my assumption is wrong, tell me). I'm just curious of the reasoning behind this trend.
Grad schools, from what I understand (I went straight to grad school for various reasons) take work experience as sort of a bonus, if it's relevant. They usually just make sure your previous schooling was sufficient and that you somehow demonstrate through your application that you are capable of handling the rigors of grad school. It's almost more an evaluation of potential rather than actual merit, since a smart but lazy student is much much worse than a hard-working dumbass, because grad school is work, not just book smarts. I would beef up your application by mentioning any projects you worked on long term at your job, any self-motivated work you've done (in or out of work), etc...Also mention how you've stayed in touch with the computer engineering world (if your specialty is VLSI, for example, then maybe if you continually read the appropriate IEEE journal, mention that). I know a few people that went nuts during the dot-com days by getting all sorts of high-$ IT jobs, and then years later came back for an applied physics PhD. Good luck. Oh, and get used to the pay cut...actually, you're comign from India, so the pay will be about the same :)
really, don't go in IT. take a trade (carpentry, plumbing, etc.) and discover that you could make almost as much money with way saner hours, way less stress and guaranteed work until retirement. a lot of former IT workers around here have done this when IT consulting (and IT in general) went down the toilet and those who met me (i now live in an apt.) have repeatedly told me the same thing. if i had not been such a chicken, i would have done the same thing, considering i enjoy carpentry work.
you might think i'm joking, but i'm not. i'm back into production support, with a 24/7 leash (sp?) (cell phone, pager) and i'm wondering why i'm not working as a carpenter, considering the building boom around here.
and in the early '70s they said "go in computers, you'll have work for life!". yeah, right.
Hi,
Having left the industry to go back for a PhD, here's my input. It may be different for a Masters, in particular for a terminal Masters.
> 1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience?
For admissions, mostly not at all. Admissions is really "previous GPA, application, etc." Past work is good if there's an interview stage, but most of admission is just paperwork and weeding out.
Now, if you do get admitted, that's when you talk to your advisor and find out which past work can count as credit hours (saving you time and money).
That said, admissions does have one critical bit-- whether they (the committee/department as a culture) tend to favor returnees and people with experience, or if they prefer fresh-outs with no real-world taint that they can work hard and mold in their own image.
That cultural barrier will be the one big determinant for any application. A department that only wants fresh-outs would turn you down even if you have a Nobel prize.
An easy way to check this sort of thing, is find out the average age of their student body. Most universities post that (or call them), and it'll clue you into which are 'real-world friendly'. Older = more likely to value experience.
Good luck!
A.
I recently returned to get a pair of Masters degrees five years after my Bachelors.
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
They tend to view it quite favorably. Some programs insist upon it, though I doubt that would be the case for Comp Sci. Work experience is a big plus to admission committees in my experience.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
Can't answer this one.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
The biggest adjustment is getting used to not having a paycheck anymore. It's hard to adjust your standard of living. Otherwise, I found school to be much more enjoyable once I was older. I was a better student, cared more about the material, knew what questions to ask, and could more easily work with the professors.
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
I just took out student loans to cover the whole thing. Interest rates are so low right now it's almost free money. I have some student loans as low as 1.5% interest, and in the US the interest is tax deductible up to a certain amount. My only regret is that I didn't take more money out because the cost of capital is so low. (If you don't know what cost of capital means, learn! It's one of the most valuable things to know about) If you get some sort of working stipend or grant, that is great and you should take it but I'd still recommend getting student loans. Throw the extra into an investment/savings account and whatever's left over is cheap money you can build savings upon. (Yes I realize this is borderline with regard to the terms of the loan but no one will check unless you default)
The worst thing you can do is to get stale on technology while pursuing education. This equates to all the people with degrees and certs but no experience that find it impossible to get a job. Had you asked *before* quitting, I would've suggested you keep working while pursuing your additional education. It would've kept you more current on technology and might've offered some financial assistance from your employer. Maybe you can beg for your job back?
You are bored with your job as a software engineer but you are going back to take a Master's in software engineering?
Are you sure you are in the right field?
You may have to do some review as you go along, but there's really no reason not to do it this way. You'll appreciate the money you've (hopefully) saved up, you'll have a better idea about why you're in school (in terms of what your other options are), and pretty much all the concerns you might have (or at least that I and folks I know had) turn out to be non-issues. It is, from what I've heard, difficult to get into academic research after grad school if you take too much time off, but you're nowhere near making that decision yet.
It's not too bad of a transision!! I finished undergrad in '98 and went in to the work force (well sorta; I'm in the military (Canadian) and its like a job). I was accepted to do my Masters and started in the Fall of '03. The five years off was not that big of a deal. I'm an Electromag guy and I was worried about the calculus coming back, and it does. I found that the older guys in grad school do a lot better. When I was an undergrad, I worked to finish stuff and be done with it so I could go out drinking. Now, I'm accustomed to doing a day's work and I find I understand the material very well. Of course the big adjustment for me was homework. I was used to having evenings to myself and the homework sucked. But all-in-all not a bad deal. You'll do fine.
Didn't you see the "debates"?!!!
is making them!
RIP Rodney
You are missed.
Having been there, and done that(undergrad in India and Masters is US), I can say that expect two variables to differ.
First, even between a US undergrad and a US masters there is a level of difference in the amount of handholding that is done. Undergrad students can expect much more help, both from the institution and social networks. That is lessened, either delibrately or not, in graduate school. You'll have to keep on top of all paper work, assignments, readings etc.
Secondly, there is a cultural aspect. In Indian schools(keep in mind that I have not done any graduate level work in India, so far, so I can't say how Indian graduate schools operate), I feel that there is more of a tendency to "follow the book". While you will not find that absolutely absent here, and some professors even swear by it, that is generally not the trend here. If what you are being thought in class contradicts something that you know, or you know a special case or something, by all means, feel free to bring it out.
A US graduate school can be great experience if only your attitude is not to take everything they tell you at face value. What the school tries to do is expose you to a lot of concepts - it is your job to assimilate it. While this holds true more in non-technical streams, it still is a great attitude to have while doing graduate work.
http://himalayantraveller.blogspot.com/
To answer your 3rd question: After the bubble burst, there was atleast 2-4 time increase in graduate applications in US. Many people who lost jobs had no other option (market scene was really bad) and went for masters. Many professors like students with job experience (especially in engineering) as their learning time curve is shorter. The only, so called, problem is that you will still find yourself old in the old graduate student crowd. This at times may be depressing for some people. And remember graduate studies is equivalent of being slave. You will not be earning what you are earning now and your friends will still be roaming in BMWs etc. Engineering grad school is also worst for dating in case you are still single. You can count females on your fingers and most likely all of them will be taken.
Scholarships: I checked data from recent years and scholarships for masters haven't been any good. You can always cheat (which many do) and get admitted for doctoral program with financial aid and then leave after masters. Some professors have started asking for written committment or they will admit you to only phd program. Mengg programs do not provide any finanacial aid for sure (you can do part-time TA). Option of taking loans is always there.
> 4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assistantships and how much of your costs did these cover?"
PhD courses in the UK, usually have funding associated with the positions, Masters on the whole don't. So I suspect you'll have to fund yourself, for the period required to complete a masters (usually a year, full-time in the UK).
You may well be able to get RA work, or other ways to help fund yourself, but these tend to vary depending on the University, and there are no guarantees.
The alternative is to do things part time. I am currently doing a (self funded) Masters in Bioinformatics in my spare time - It will take about 4 years - I'm about half way through. Or some courses allow you to work half time, and study half time (so the degree takes 2 years).
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- Your current job is boring, but you enjoy software engineering work. In which case, your solution should be to find another job.
- You are bored with software engineering in general. In which case, having a graduate degree is not going to solve anything. You should be looking for another line of work.
- You are bored with coding, and want to do "software architect" work, and you believe having an advanced degree will help you achive that. Well, speaking as someone who has an MS in CS and have worked with many other software architects, I can tell you the qualification for being a software architect is the experience, not the degree. So you are better off sticking with your "boring" coding job until you get the amount experience where you can be an architect. Although I understand in some cultures the degree is worth more than the experience, that is almost never the case in the U.S.
In my opinion, the only reason to get an advanced degree in CS/CE is because you are personally challenged to understand the theoretical aspects of computing. If you just want to advance your career, you're better off spending that extra two years gaining work experience.The admissions office will give you some credit for work in the field etc., it does count for something. Most of the students I have been in courses with were teaching assistants for undergrad courses, the others on scholarships with a few dollars from summer internships. Since it appears you can do it without working full-time I think you have gone the best route. I am 29, working full-time, and only taking one class each semester towards an MS in CompSci. I have to say it is a challenge keeping up. It is hard competing against students fresh out of undergrad that aren't so focused on paying a mortgage and all of the other things usually done in life after college. Bottom line is, the amount of time you've spent out of school isn't the problem, (I've found I actually study more efficiently than I did years ago when I was earning my BS in CompSci). The problem is everything you aquire IN those years before going back (Mortgage, Wife, not having to budget, etc....) It is just a different lifestyle that takes a lot of adjustment. Good luck!
I am in the same boat. I am looking at top teir schools. The admission dates for the top teir seem to be different, just as they are in undergrad, usually requiring an application in the early for for teh next year's admission.
I breifly looked at the PhD program admission forms for Princeton and Penn/Wharton, and to my surprise, found they were only like one page long. They asked for school history/GPA and publications, etc.
I think they primarily base consideration on Field of Specialization (for PhD) and GRE scoores. So now I am trying my best to study for teh GRE using Kaplan resources. They have a good review book with a CD ROM. I also got their Word Power book that is intended to give words that are tested often on the GRE. The math in the GRE is easier than on the SAT and just requires that you "remember" what you learned all those years ago.
and not "insightful" (as it is currently modded), but I, too, left a well paying job to go back to grad school. In my case, the job wasn't even boring, and my employer was great (gave me a laptop computer as a going away present), but I wanted to expand my horizons.
There are far more important things in life then money, and the sooner one figures that out, the closer one will come to having a fulfulling life. Of course, this goes back to the maturity equation someone else has already alluded to.
As to some of the original questions - most US schools will look kindly on relevant work experience (even - or perhaps especially - if that work experience is only tangentially relevant). Diversity is still the watchword here, and that includes diversity of experience. Since most grad students (at my school - UVA) have little to no work experience and are in their early to mid 20's upon entering grad school, the older, more experienced applicant has the benefit of bringing diversity. Additionally, as others have pointed out you likely have additional maturity (e.g., well-defined work ethic) that will give you more of an advantage in the course work than the disadvantage of being away from it awhile.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
There's the old saying "Don't give up your day job," which in this context means keeping yourself employable in your old field, in case the new degree doesn't open the new employment opportunities you're hoping for. So try to keep up with the latest tools and technology that you would have been using if you hadn't quit. (I went back to school and let my old-job skills stagnate a bit, which made it more difficult when I ended up going back into my original line of work.)
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Interesting to hear the responses of those who have gone back to persue graduate studies after a "break" (LOL) in the Real World.
However, I'd be intersted to know if there's anyone else in MY boat... I started in TV the day I finished High School. However, I'm not all that happy anymore with where I'm working, and to get a similar job without the piece of paper, I think, is going to prove difficult.
Any g33ks out there who skipped out on post-secondary education, and decided it was a good idea in their mid-twenties? The thought of being back in the classroom is terrifying, but I think I'm 20 times more motivated and disciplined now than I was then.
I went back as a grad student 7 years after getting my degree. My situation is a bit different than yours as I went back to take 36 hours of undergrad pre-requisits for medical school. I was able to keep my job while taking these courses and I'll find out next month if I got in. But none the less here's what I found.
1) You are going to be waaaay more organized and mature for your classes now that you've had to report to a boss for at least 5 years.
2) You'll (probably) not have to deal with any of the stupid social crap that you have to deal with as a first time college student. i.e. parties, living alone, bf/gf, etc.
3) One thing I found terribly annoying was the difference between academic culture and corporate culture. It's hard to put a finger on it, but academics in general seem to have no concept of the real world. They move slowly, without any sense of urgency nor real emotion about the students they teach. This really frustrated me to no end.
The real question I have for the OP, is what will a masters degree really do for you? I can virtually guarantee you that you learned more in the 5 years of real world experience than you're going to learn in any classroom. In my experiecne with hiring people I put alot more weight in what they have actually done in a corporate environment rather than what they picked up in a classroom.
Ummm, most people would start applying and THEN quit their job after getting accepted and the first semester starts. but I guess you can afford to be jobless for a while......
The biggest advantage my real world experience gave me was that I knew why I was in graduate school and what my alternatives were. This served me well when the going got tough.
The biggest disadvantage was that I was much less tolerant of the standard bullshit that most graduate students accepted without question.
Work your ass off. Try to blend in with the herd. Have fun.
We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
-- Anais Nin
Well, in my case the break was of (only?) two years, and the only problems I faced were the economical fraglity -- for having quit my job -- and having forgotten some important subjects, for lack of training/applying them in real life.
I did grad school after several years in the working world. My advice: take some good solid math classes on the side before beginning grad school. I had forgotten alot of Diff Eq, and my linear algebra was weak. The math courses also helped my confidence. You can amaze your new colleagues by explaining the difference between eigenvalues, eigenvectors, and eigenfunctions!!
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
You better get used to drinking Busch Light again...
This is a great Ask Slashdot...
I returned to grad school in music technology after 2 years off. For what it's worth, having been in a "real" work environment (at least in my line of work, at a university) really helped me understand how the whole "school beaurocracy" works.
I think going back to school after working gives you an upper hand on your classmates, especially if you're like me and have a teaching assistantship -- "real world" work gives you a lot of experience managing time and planning on how to get things done. It's very easy in grad school to wait until the last minute just like you did in undergrad, but I've found that since I worked before coming here I'm getting things done early and the quality is higher.
My only advice would be, if you go back to school, treat it like it's a job. Be serious, do your work well, and take time to relax too. If you're doing something you love, it's totally worth it.
After working in a low-paid publishing job for 5 years, I went back to school and have never regretted it. I think you'll get the most of it if you do an internship during school, and take classes in other departments as well -- for example, students in my program also took classes in education and law.
I was lucky in that many (in fact, most) of the students in my department were also people who had been in the working world for years and were in the same boat -- trying to get used to being students again. They had more perspective and wisdom to share!
There are lots of programmers out there, but if you can demonstrate an interest and understanding in other fields -- fields that could be served by programming -- you'll gain an advantage.
I just started backup at school too. My first class is next Tuesday.
I'm still working full-time, so I'm taking night classes. I cracked my books open yesterday and realized that I'm going to have to "learn" again. My brain started hurting and hasn't stopped since.
I think the trick is to find a job like mine, that pays for you to go to school. Not only am I getting a first rate education at the best university in the area, but work is paying for books and tuition. That's something that I just can't pass up.
I want the smartest people in the world filling American schools, so I'm glad to have you here. But I'm curious why you don't study in India, or perhaps in Malaysia or South Africa (presumably you want education in English). Is the Anglo (US/UK/Canadian) education still *that* much better, that you'll relocate to thoe other side of the world, and into the higher costs of living, when your Indian savings would go much further nearby? Especially considering the costs of reestablishing a social network. Are we really still that good?
--
make install -not war
1) Work Experience is always valued. It will also help you secure aid (RA/TA or atleast as a lab assistent).
2) Masters in US is much easier as compared to doing a Masters in India. Donno anything about Canada/ UK systems tho'.
3) Having done something very similar to what you are trying to do ( Except I had a Masters degree from India), I found it easy to work on my studies. I could understand a topic with ease as compared to other students. The main problem I had was to go back to student lifestyle; after living in relative comforts for 4-5 years as a professional. Academic life is very different than the professional life. Here, the professor is your god, and the savior! It takes some time to accept the arrogance a professor would show. {well, he/she is right almost everytime!)
4) I'd strongly recommend choosing a US university for your masters. They have good funding; and some really good professors and projects to work on.
Good luck!
I got kicked out of school after two years, basically because I didn't really belong there yet. I went to work for five years, and finally decided that it was time to go back to school. I had a good job at a great place, but I kept running into barriers -- things that I should have learned in school but hadn't.
I went crawling back on my hands and knees to my previous school, and they were surprisingly (well, to me, anyway) receptive to the idea of me coming back. (The "We sincerely hope that you could continue your education elsewhere." closing sentence in our previous correspondence didn't seem to leave that open as an option, but time heals all wounds, apparently.)
It was great. I had a ravenous appetite for learning. As I was paying for it myself the second time around, I wanted to get everything out of the experience that I could. I worked furiously, did extra homework, upbraided the profs when they skipped a day (much to the shock and bewilderment of my classmates) and got straight A's for the one-and-a-half years it took to finally graduate. (Bringing my GPA up to a less-than stellar 2.7. *sigh*)
It is hard to go back. It is so easy to keep working, to keep going on once you've started going on. There are a thousand things keeping you at work, and only this vague sense that continuing your education is the right thing to do. With that kind of conflict, it is very difficult to go back to school for even a couple of years.
But to me, those two years were among the most productive of my life. YMMV.
Thad Beier
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
I don't work in the US, but I (luckily) found a computer job in Mexico (not outsourced tho).
Lessons I learned:
a) Teach yourself with books.
b) Take programming language (i.e. java) courses. Learn what pays, not necessarily what is the best (there are 100x more ASP.NET jobs here than PHP ones - sad but true)
c) Practice a lot.
d) School didn't give me more (or any at all) employment opportunities. It was just a paper. However, I don't know how that applies in the US.
I think that someone with the tools and experience in his resume will more probably get hired than someone with a Harvard degree but zero experience. (However my education was outdated, got in school in '93, and got out in '99, so the college courses were completely internet-agnostic. Maybe that's why I couldn't find more opportunities.
So.. WHY do you want to go to college? IMHO you're just giving the US lotsa money (unless you got a scholarship) so that you'll be better prepared for about nothing.
Didn't think there were any technical Indians (dots, not feathers) left in India...
and any interest at all in biochem, you could cover your bets pretty well by going after one of the Bioinformatics programs [those are two programs I know of...quite expensive as they are presumed by the schools to be in demand and it is expected your employer is helping pay the tuition] It does not outfit you for commercial web app development or for some mainstream IT jobs but within a few narrow areas such as search and rapid access to terabyte databases, these guys are at the limits of computing. You will get a job if you survive.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
subject says it all
For the purposes of the post, it holds true with CE as well. Bachelor's can earn you more money in many cases.
Study.
;)
And though it may be rated as funny, this is quite serious, I've gone back to school myself. I used to be the kind of student who got away with just taking the exams with a few hours of review ahead of time not so now however. I haven't quite figured out weither I've gotten dumber or the work itself is harder. I figure it's both and hope it's mostly for the second reason
Mind the frickin' laser...
Single/Multivariable Calculus
Differentials
Linear and Discrete math
Stat
Combinatorics
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
I took a break 3 years after I graduated (this was last year) and went onto a research MSc in the UK. I didn't really find my job boring, and it was certainly well paying, but the challenges seemed to be similar, day in and day out (mostly with insane deadline pressure) and getting a postgraduate degree was a longtime personal goal anyway. Bewarned, this is a long entry *grin*
In the UK, I found that work experience is highly valued. What sort of postgrad you opt to do influences things to a certain extent, but certainly with a taught course, some subjects should be easy for you (with your practical experience).
Unfortunately, I had a lot of difficulty adjusting to the pace and requirements of a research degree. One thing is the amoung of reading and preparation before you actually start doing something. Literature survey and background research is fine, but being somewhat a hands on person, it was personally difficult to motivate myself to read mounds and mounds of papers on the same topic, especially when they mostly seemed to say the same thing. *grin*
Another thing that drove me mad was the lack of real deadlines for a research degree. Because of the hyperfocus on deadlines that I brought from work, I tried to do the best job possible as quickly as possible. It frustrated me a great deal when I had to timeshare my supervisor (for paper reading and revision) and sometimes it would be a good few weeks before he'd get to my latest paper submission. A few weeks after I had submitted the paper, that is. To be fair, he is over worked, but for someone who was used to working closely with a team and seeing visible signs of progress, it was difficult to force myself to schedule things in that way.
Funding wise, international students have to pay a hefty premium over the locals in the UK. About thrice as much. Although this is certainly not as much as the top name US schools, fees average around £10 to £15k, depending on where you get in. As far as fee supplements go, well.. it is possible to do some TA/RA work and be recompensed for it, but I would suggest that it is a folly to expect to pay your entire tuition + living through work on the side. A more reasonable expectation might be to hope to cover (at least part of) your living costs by supplements. The region of the UK you choose also plays a part, with London being relatively expensive, rentwise and the north (AFAIK) being much cheaper.
Either way, the challenges will be different from work. The first six months were the hardest for me, work wise before I settled into a groove of sorts. Your coding and technical prowess will be respected by your peers (not everyone in a CS department is a kickass coder, nor do they want to be) and sometimes, I've found that I have a broader knowledge of the field than some others who've been doing one focused, specific piece of research for a few years. That may or may not be be an advantage. I confess to being intimidated by the grasp of AI (papers, authors) that some people displayed when I was first here :) But all in all, I'm enjoying my stay as a "mature" student and I think I am in a better position to appreciate student life again after a few years "outside". But damn, I miss the monthly paycheck. *sigh*
Good luck with your hunt.
I just graduated with my MBA, and although the professors, students, and program was great, it was severely lacking one major ingredient: career services. The career services center was so awful that it really detracted from the excellent experience. So, make sure you know where you want to go after grad school, and make sure that that school can get you there.
One man's Funny is another man's Offtopic.
What I mean is don't go just to get a higher level degree because if you do, you'll probably get a higher level degree that doesn't get you anything more than maybe a higher paying boring job.
We have TONS of grad students where I work that fall in to this category. They go on to get a grad degree because it's hgiher level, so much be better, right? They slag through the classes, learn lots of theory that they have no idea how to apply, do uninteresting "research" and then go on.
Well regardless of the higher degree, you'll still get crap work if that's your approach. Creative and interesting work isn't a matter of how much education you have. It's perfectly possible to be a PhD who has no vision, no creativity and has a boring job.
So, if you are going to go to grad school, do it for the reason that grad school orignally existed: to begin to do orignal research in a field that you find interesting and challenging. Don't look at the classes as teaching you stuff you have to memorize to pass a test, look at them as teaching you theoritical concepts that can be applied to the work you do. Don't do half-assed "research" where you slog through texts and produce a paper that says basically nothing new or of interest, get on a project that is working on actually making something, or testing new theories.
Basically you have to treat it as something to expand who YOU are, not as something to prove to the world you are more educated. While I think this should be true of all education, I can see in many cases how an undergrad degree is just a right of passage. You are qualified to do what you want to do, you just need the degree as a form of proof, so you just slog through it.
However that's not true with a graduate degree, at least if you want it to lead to interesting and challenging work (which you claim to). You need to take it as a chance to improve yourself.
Also, if you work on real projects, there will generall be industry ponsors and that's a great way to start making contacts for jobs. You'll show them that you aren't jsut someone getting their MS to attempt to compensate for lack of orignal thought, but someone who is creative and talented, and can do good work. That will most likely be more valuable than the degree itself.
Disclaimer: I'm not an engineering grad, I work for a department and help support them, so take the advice in that context.
ok, you've got a problem already. First - you had a job already in the field you're wanting to get a graduate degree in...but you found that job to be "boring."
Second problem: how wise was it to quit your job "a few months ago," when you're not even sure that you want to do this? What was it about applying for graduate school that required you to quit work, and sit around home all day playing on the computer (or however you've been spending your time)? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, part of your indecisiveness might have something to do with the fact that you're now not having to deal with that "boring" job?
Perhaps you should consider re-evaluating yourself, and realize that further cementing your life into computer software engineering just isn't what you enjoy. So...go find whatever that thing is, and do it. That's my advice - harsh, but hey.
Its not that I blame you, either - I'm only doing it until my wife gets done with school, myself...then I'm going to put IT behind me and be a teacher. It takes a person that is twisted in a special way to enjoy the drudgery of this field.
that makes me a "fortween"?
Also, don't be afraid to audit courses. If you don't feel you remember something well enough to take the graduate classes in it, by all means audit the lower level course to refresh your memory.
The final thing I can tell you is to expect classes to be tough, to throw things at you and leave you to figure out the messy details. I took a graduate level Networking class as part of my BS program and the instructor gave us a final project (40% of the grad) that involved simulating some of the proposed protocols and stuff. We were left to figure out how to do it, we could use a network simulator, or take another route. I ended up writing code to implement gateway routing protcol. It was a dummy program that just took in the messages as specified in the RFC and responded properly but didn't do any actual routing. I got an A on the project and the course.
The reason I bring this up is because most of the actual graduate students in the class complained the whole semester about the project. I took other graduate level courses where similar things occurred. The professors expect you to not need as much handholding so be prepared for it. Don't complain, it'll just annoy the professor, just figure out a way to get it done. The professor for that Networking course told me later on (I ended up doing a fellowship at his lab the following summer) that he did that on purpose. He expected us to be able to find the way to get it to work on our own, that was actually part of the project grade. Consider it a trial by fire. :)
I'd also recommend you take the time to really get to know your professors, make friends with them if you can. It'll help you out down the line. For me I was able to go straight from graduation into grad school with a very nice GRA position that paid extroidinarily well (about $20k a year) because I made friends with a couple of professors. If you hope to get a PhD in the future having professors you're friends with will be almost vital.
I am applying to grad schools now and most of my friends are in a program of some sort. From them and my application and internship experiences, I think the best way to go about getting in is to know very specifically what you want to do (work experience or anything else related to the field helps) and to know someone (usually the prof) in the institutions program. Find a reason to correspond with them on a project that interests you, or speak with old advisers from undergraduate days. One friend was laid-off from his programming job and applied to a bioengineering program because of a current recommendation from his adviser (from 6 years ago). One friend applied to high ranking schools and was only accepted to the schools where he spoke with the professors.
Since I have yet to get in to one myself, I am wondering if these are fair generalizations about getting into grad school (in order of importance):
1. Knowing someone (interview)
2. Experience (related work, school projects)
3. Grades (job performance)
4. Recommendations/References
I welcome anyone with more experience to correct/dispel my notions.
Some things to expect:
Expect that you'll be mentally rusty, but it shakes off after about a month. IOW, you'll have to study hard at first.
Your maturity will serve you well.
Your experience will serve you well.
Take it easy on your nest egg (if you have one)... it disappears quickly.
Also, bear in mind that in the UK (for undergraduate courses at least; I don't have experience of taught-Masters), the courses generally don't rely on specific textbooks to the same extent as the US (although this varies; I've done some courses which *did* follow a single textbook closely- some others didn't at all).
This is a double-edged sword. It means you're more likely to get away with not buying the books in many cases (if the book *is* essential, it'll be obvious soon enough), but some of the "recommendations" I've had made weren't particularly useful, nor applicable to the course (Somerville's "Software Engineering" and the Tanenbaum co-authored "Distributed Systems" being the two worst offenders IMHO).
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
at least with a Master's or PhD you have a little more flexibility and aren't quite as easily replaced as someone with an MBA
I would say this is exactly backwards. Businesses are a lot more likley to retain someone who understands the business well. I am not saying that having an MBA automatically grants you some secrect knowledge that no-one else can ever attain, but I will say that having a maasters or PHD for practical corperate IT work is almost never a plus - either nuetral to negative depending on the person. Few businesses (outside of google) ever really respect theoretical CS knowledge, even when it helps them - they cannot recognize how it is helping them, as problems avoided remain unseen (no matter how much you try to illuminate them).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I went back to school in a computer science graduate program after two years in industry working as primarily a developer. My circumstances were perhaps a little different than yours. The place I had been working had an affinity for death march projects, and half the staff had quit over the course of a year. I was looking for an exit and took a graduate school opportunity when it came up.
My immediate academic goal in going back to graduate school was to study applied software development and squeeze in some business classes when possible. Having had a few bad experiences in the corporate world, my longterm goal was to learn stuff to help me start my own software development business or find a nice job working in a non-profit (eg the university). The thinking here was that I would either work like a slave for myself or work at a reasonable pace doing work that was morally fulfilling.
Within a few quarters back at school, I found that I really wasn't getting what I wanted out of the computer science program. The masters program had a lot of content on theoretical subjects like Axiomatic Semantics and Non Deterministic turing machines. The content that did seem vaguely practical like computer hardware architecture wasn't practical to me. I was more interested in studying things like program analysis, application frameworks, interface design, and development methodologies in a practical context. The school offered some of these subjects via the computer science program, but in general, I found myself pursuing independent studies and courses outside of the program. Eventually, I left the program entirely and was hired on fulltime by the department where I'd worked as a graduate assistant.
In terms of general observations...I found it difficult to get into the swing of traditional academics. This can manifest itself in a variety of forms.
First, working in industry, I was very used to working on projects and it took awhile to get adjusted back to the notion of being graded on 48 minute exams. To this end, you might find it beneficial to schedule a few project classes first term. Be careful about this though because college project classes are at least twice as much work as normal ones. I think they're also harder than normal professional work in groups because the groups are randomly formed, with no preconceived notion of domain expertise or compartmentalized responsibility... sometimes the assignments are kinda vague too because there is rarely a customer defining requirements.
Secondly, having experience in my career, I found it much more difficult to accept the relevance of the material being taught. For example, in one class we spent a week or two talking about crap like infinitely countable sets. Working in a fast paced environment for several years kind of trains you to filter out noise. If you don't think infinitely countable sets are relevant to your goals/work, it will be harder to wade through the material. This kind of motivational/attention span problem was my biggest issue.
Lastly, I think the world of computer science academics is somewhat notorious for reinventing the wheel as an excercise. It can be somewhat frustrating dealing with limited resources, specific languages, no libraries, not being aloud to use stuff from online, etc. This is not too big a deal.
Overall, I'm glad I went back to school. Because I did my own thing, I mostly got what I wanted out of the experience. That didn't include a degree, but that was never actually important to me.
I went back after 14 years away from school.
My Master's degree in Math was from 1980. I went back in 1994.
I applied to four universities and was accepted at all of them. So I had my pick of where to go.
The first thing I noticed was that, in general, the classes were somewhat less rigorous.
One math professor told me that was true for undegraduates as well as graduate students. He said that the quality of students they were getting was much lower than in the 70s. The high school (and earlier) education systems were leaving them less prepared for college than before.
I found out that older students were generally treated much better than the usual undergraduate students. That was true at all levels.
Seminars were quire interesting. Often, I was older than the profs at seminars being given by outside people. As a result, the presenter would typically think that I was the most senior professor in attendance. So if I subtly nodded in understanding of a point, he would move on to the next point. But if I looked puzzled, he'd explain it in greater detail.
The campus parking people were much more understanding as well. When I received a parking ticket one night because the parking permit was obscured by another parking permit, they dismissed it on the spot. According to the rules, that was still a parking violation and should not be dismissed.
Most of the profs treated me better as well. For example, in one class everyone had to do a presentation during the course. Most of the time, the prof just sat at the back during the presentation and listened. When I gave my presentation, the prof actively participated in the discussion.
With my background, I participated more in class discussions than back in the 70s. In the 70s, if I didn't understand a point, I'd just figure I'd look it up later. When I returned to school, if I had a question, I'd ask it right then. In nearly every class, I asked more questions than anyone else in the class. Most profs get tired of just standing up in front of the class talking the entire period and really appreciate on-topic questions.
how this became a slashdot story. How does this happen? I'll tell you, the slashdot story pickers think it's cool to start flame wars, because it's more popular than actual news. Kinda like the TV news. Who doesn't enjoy a good diss on our ever friendlier back-stabbing neighbors from India..
I went back to computer school after working for a few software companies, then moved to Canada. Here's my findings: -- Going back to computer school was easy and fun: I was in the position where I mostly helped my fellow students with the experience I gathered. Convincing the school that you are the right candidate for them was easy: you provide experience to students who don't have it. It can only make them succeed, so you can only be a good addition. However, the only thing I *really* learned was SQL...Which is to say, not a big thing..the rest was C++, algorithmics and computer theory I already knew and used. -- Going back to school was the best thing I did: This plus past experience showed people that I was already able AND willing. It also filled up my resume with a nice entry. -- Canadians don't really care about your diploma if you have stack of experience already. They have never asked me to produce any document. If you come for a foreign country, you can even be confusing enough with the equivalence between diplomas to get a good position that usually require diplomas you don't have (because even in 2005, HR people still thinks the more diploma you have, the better you will be at the job) My advice: If you feel you are ready for it, go for it!
but is perhaps germane.
I took a sabbatical from my undergrad Aerospace Engineering degree starting Summer 1995. I started back up in Spring 2000. For me, the toughest part was actually registering for classes. Once I got past the self-doubt stage (do I remember enough of this stuff to still hack the math?), I signed up for a re-hash of some core classes that a) I didn't do super well in the first time around and b) I would use frequently in the rest of my degree. I re-took thermodynamics and fluid mechanics, and used the material I was already somewhat familiar with to re-acclimate myself to the academic grind.
I graduated in Spring 2003. I took a five year sabbatical on a five year degree plan, and didn't lose a whole lot of time in the transition. I think my time spent away from school was very valuable.
I wish you success.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
1. In the sciences, at least, previous experience is very, very important. i know some people who posted here commented that its all about GRE scores and grades. i found this, personally, to be totally untrue. as i said before, im in the physical sciences, which may be a bit different. that said, the focus in my grad school is on _doing_ your own research and the admissions committee is therefore interested in what you can do.
2. In the science field, if you want a job as an academic at a US school (i.e. a prof) you will be best off coming from a US school. For masters study im not too sure, though. One thing to keep in mind is that more funding will be available to you in the US _if_ you are a US citizen (see below). Going abroad may cost you more.
3. I think you will have to be open to changing your routine and way of thinking. Industry is, generally speaking, organized and motivated very differently than school. I have found grad school to be much more challenging than industry (even though i was managing several people in the R+D dept. at the company i worked for) - the demands on your time are tougher (random, long hours) and the intellectual tasks are more difficult. Prepare to work hard! I would also reccommend talking to your signifcant other, if you have one. The change in schedule and drop in free time (no more 2-day weekends :) are things you will want to discuss with him/her. Finally, start reading to get in shape... you'll be reading lots.
4. No comment.
Also, you will want to look for external funding. This can help supplement your meager stipend or offset the cost of tuition (if you have to pay). Some places to look (in the US, for US citizens) for Comp. Sci funding are:
National Science FoundationU.S. Dept. of Defense
Good luck!
There is one skill that I'd recommend you try to pick up immediately, though: RESEARCH. You need to learn two things. First, you need to learn how to find papers about what you're interested in. And, scholar.google.com isn't sufficient (yet). Second, you need to learn to actually read and understand those papers. Sometimes it can take a month just to get through a single paper. But, learn how to push through and you'll reap dividends. Some graduate departments do a good job of teaching research skills. Others are lousy. Your experience could differ alot. But, to be good in graduate school requires alot more than just attendance. So, learn to do good research before you're paying to do so and you'll be happier.
As far as admissions goes, I think you should call the department you want to study in and ask the graduate coordinator. Every department is different. Some Universities really cater to returning professional students -- George Mason University in Virginia is that way. Other Universities have different philosophies.
In my field (mathematics) most admissions decisions are ultimately made based upon academic recommendations. I think that GPA and test scores are important, too. My wife says that when she worked in the admissions office they used GPA and test scores just to sort the applications into "bother to read recommendations" and "don't bother" piles. YMMV.
I can't speak to the differences between US and UK schools. I've got a number of friends who went to school in Canada and I don't think our systems differ much. Except Canadian schools are better funded so they're cheaper.
If you're trying to decide where to apply I'd recommend that you start by reading conference papers and published research. Try to find some research topics that are of particular interest to you. Then, look at where there are academics who are currently working in that field. You may discover that the preeminent researcher in your interest is at a really cheap school! How cool would that be! If you have no idea what you want to do with your life, then try to find a department that's large enough to support lots of research interests. That way, you can used your Masters degree as an opportunity to sample everything and see what you like best.
If you're returning to school because you just want another degree (and eventually a better job) then you should consider trying to make sure you stay very well rounded. On the other hand, if you're trying to become an academic you need to worry more about when you're going to start publishing. Even small teaching colleges are starting to look for applicants to have multiple published papers. It's by far best if you get a couple of things published before you finish your PhD. Otherwise, finding a job could be tough. So, if this is your goal you may want to try specializing soon enough that you can start working on papers. Again, YMMV.
Finally, I just wanted to say that both my wife and I returned to graduate school after many years away and we've both had a blast. I hope you have a similar experience! Good luck!
"He wrested the world's whereabouts from the heavens And locked the secret in a pocketwatch." - Dava Sobel
I am doing the same thing. However, like some other posters here I am working on the Undergrad degree after several years of work. (I was a know-it-all punk and screwed myself out of an education before).
I have learned a lot this time around.
First, I have found that colleges look very favorably on people who are either in the workforce, and going back to school, or people who are taking a break from the workforce to go back to school. Those types tend to do better academically than kids fresh out of HS, or fresh out of undergrad.
Secondly, teachers are more favorable and lenient to you as well. Older students, esp ones with experience in their field of study tend to do better, work harder, and also bring to class a whole host of real world experience that the other students just will not get otherwise.
Third, you will do better as an older student. Again, older students work harder, and tend to grasp things better, especially when their studies are in the field that they have previous work experience.
Some schools will also allow you to test out of courses based on your work experience (no I dont mean thost 50 dollar doctorates) but in some cases, you can get out of at least the basics that way. I have tested out of several required intro courses because of my years of experience in IT. I made a strong business case to the dept head of my school, and they agreed with me.
There are lots of benefits... adn it IS hard work, but to be honest, I am having a much better time as a student now, than I ever did.
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne
I graduated with a degree in I.S. two years ago. I work as a Sys Admin right now, and also going to night school to get my masters in Information Technology. My goal after that, is to then get my MBA, but would you consider it more wise to skip the MS in IT completely and go right for the MBA? I feel that if I was in management, I would want to know as much as possible about what I am managing (hence the MS degree). Any one else have any input?
"Insert Sig Here"
I did this in 2001. I took a BS from a top US engineering school in a combination of CS/Psychology in the early 90s, worked for 9 years, started two companies, made some money, but found myself especially towards the end of the boom getting too far away from what I found interesting.
So I went back for CS, and am currently in the process of completing an MS thesis, which should also carry me into a PhD.
It's been a *great* experience, but not without hiccups...
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
The better (top 40-50 in the US) graduate schools exist primarily to create more professors. So your re-entry to the graduate community will be evaluated in academic terms. Despite the greater integration of the commercial and academic worlds through the Internet, academia still is an ivory tower that operates according to its own rules.
Meaning: the better schools generally don't consider work experience relevant *at all*. Unless you were doing *research* or research-type work- had papers or other relevant public/peer reviewed published materials to show for your time- work experience is irrelevant. In fact, it's unhelpful, because you spent productive years *not* doing research.
Don't even bother to submit recommendations from employers, unless those employers themselves have recognized academic credentials (meaning, a professorship. PhDs don't count.).
Put another way, I found that schools considered my *undergraduate* academic performance- from *10 years* prior- to be more relevant in their evaluations than *any* of the innovative, creative professional work I had done since.
This is startling and dismaying, but you'll get over it.
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
I can't speak for Canada or the UK, but MS work in the US is viewed in academic circles as *professional*, almost like a trade school. It is of course possible to do research as an MS student, but at most schools there is a class distinction between MS and PhD students that limits access to professors or funding or other academic resources. Most schools expect MS students to *have* another job, while for PhD students, getting a PhD *is* their job.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
It's been a tremendously *positive* experience for me. However, it was a challenge adjusting after not being in an academic environment for 10 years.
The biggest adjustment for me, frankly, was ego. I came in as an MS student, so it was a challenge coming in at the bottom of the academic food chain, after being at the top in the professional world for the last several years. But humility is a virtue, so I consider this to be a great adjustment to have to go through.
The second biggest adjustment was working/learning style. In academia, especially in research, you get points for completeness and correctness, while in the professional world, you get points for efficiency.
The strategies you learn and the risks you take in the professional world to be efficient, to get quickly to market, to employ FUD effectively to thwart your competitors and deal with the crazy needs of clients/customers- these are the wrong strategies and behaviors in the academic world.
There of course is hand-waving and FUD and all that in academia, and a strong competitive dynamic (getting papers into conferences, etc)- but the way the game is played, as I found it at least, is completely different.
4) People who've studied in the UK at the MSc, MPhil, MEngg level - how did you fund your education? Were you able to get things like teaching or research assis
In general, the main difference is that US graduate schools are more rigorous in terms of courseworks than grad schools in Australia, Singapore, Canada, and UK. If you look at their curiculum requirements for MS / PhD, they would only require few courseworks (e.g. 6 units) and then a thesis. While in the US, most graduate schools will require 30 units plus a thesis / project for MS and another 30 units plus a dissertation for PhD.
These are just my observations...
I can only give you my experiences in regard to question #3. For me it was about 8 years from the end of my BS to starting my MS. During that time, I lost my edge as far as school goes. That first semester was a BEAR! Keep your focus (older students do better at that). Always understand what your ultimate goal is (you do have an ultimate goal, don't you?). All the sacrifices for your advanced degree will pay for themselves quickly after graduation!
I would say the hardest part of going back to school after being away for so long is getting back into the swing of going to classes. At first, for me, it seemed like I had more free time. Then I realized how much prep time I was spending for class. I think I worked harder during the 2 years I spent on my MS than during most of my other jobs before and after.
Anyway, don't spend too long thinking about it, because if you're like me, you'll try to talk yourself out of it. Jump on the opportunity and get that advanced degree.
Good luck.
That's what going back to school is all about you fucking elephant jockey
Elephant. . . jockey?
. . .
BWHHAHAHAHA!!!
Oh, you're going back to a tech school? In that case, my condolences...
There is a huge learning curve for subjects since you've likely purged the 'useless' data which formed the prerequisites for some of the classes you'll be taking. Plan on hours of studying at least for the first few months, as your brain recycles information.
You'll also be surrounded by youngin's. For more advanced classes it won't be too bad, because the kids that made it that far are more mature and focused, but be prepared to be annoyed by flippant young kids who haven't learned things like sacrifice yet. The flipside of this is that you should not discount your younger classmates. We have a tendency to acquiesce to seniority, but in the classroom even the teacher learns new things at times. My equal in my Calc class is a girl who is 11 years younger than me. And hot. Which is distracting too. Either way, it is to your benefit to adopt an egalitarian outlook while on campus.
I'm a first year graduate student at RPI working towards my Master's. I'll tell you right now that not many schools are looking for Master's students. I applied to 4 different schools and only one, my safe school, gave me any kind of money whatsoever.
I know that research experience is rated very highly. I would recommend giving them as much information about you as possible. Also, do a lot of background checking on the school and it's current research projects. The professors with a lot of money are more likely to accept you. If a professor has no money, he definitely won't want to take on a new student, especially a Master's student who won't be around very long.
RPI is trying to get me out in a year and a half. I should have my thesis done by this summer even though I just started working on it this fall. I highly recommend checking out what the degree requirements are to make sure they won't kill you. There was a guy in my Complexity class this semester who was going back to school for his PhD and the math absolutely killed him, especially since he was EE and this was a CS class.
If you have never lived in any of these countries before, you definitely should plan on coming early to get adjusted to the lifestyle here. I imagine it's not exactly the same as what you have at home. Plus, you'll have a chance to get your bearings around town so you won't have to worry about finding a grocery store once school starts. Grad school works at a much faster pace than undergrad, even though you take fewer classes.
If you'll be studying in Canada, you need to look at the Natural Science and Engineering Research Council's web site. They are the major source of academic funding in Canada, offering several types of scholarships.
The basic scholarship that everyone applies to is the PGS Masters (or Doctoral). This year, it was worth $17,300. Competition is very tough for them and applications are usually due in September to start in the next year.
If you're willing to put in the work and earn a 4.0 grade point average, you are elligible for an Industrial Postgraduate Scholarship (IPS). They are worth a minimum of $21,000/yr for two years. The idea is that you work with a company (very similar to co-op for undergrads) who pays part of the scholarship in return for 20% of your time spent on a research project. There is no application deadline for this scholarship and it usually takes about a month for approval. I was pre-approved for one of these scholarships when I unsuccessfully applied for a PGS.
Depending on your specific discipline, they offer other scholarships as well. I suggest that you check it out for yourself.
An MBA will be far more beneficial to career advancements.
Check it Out http://aarondavidson.com
Are you sure that many leave? We're talking about a country with one billion people. Let's say 1% of Indians go to university. If 1% of those people go to another country to pursue that education, then that's 100,000 Indian students. And I'm just using those numbers as estimates -- perhaps participation rates are higher.
-- SYS 64738 --
I had 3 years between finishing my bachelors degree and starting a Ph.D. program. I had a couple jobs and some "off time" (unemployment) during the gap, so I certainly wasn't trading security for education as you are.
Anyway, my experience is that starting grad school is radically different from undergrad for most people, so that it's a big change whether you're going from undergrad or going from the workplace.
The best analogy I can think of for grad school is being a monk. You should get un-used to having disposable time and income. You should get used to spending too much time with the same few people (your classmates, rather than self-selected friends). Time for yourself (exercising, going to a movie) is important, but you likely will think of such activities as serving your studies by oncentrated relaxation.
You're right about many of us Indians obsessing about higher degrees. Its part of our culture. Here: More Education = More respect and status I want to get back into academia because thats what I wanted to do when I graduated 5 years ago but couldn't because of financial constraints. Now those constraints are gone and I can go back to doing what I wanted to. Part of the reason is also that I simply hated my IT job even though it paid very well. It was simply too damn boring.
As a retired professor, I have seen quite a lot of students come back for their masters degrees. Since I have had no personal experience with either Canadian or UK universities, I will not comment on them. I returned to graduate school at Stanford after being out of the University for about ten years. The first quarter was the toughest for my return to the routine of learning. My main problem was that I had to keep working as I had a family to support. Study time was precious. My main point it has paid off for all of those, including me, that have returned for their higher level degrees. It is very satisfying work, and I highly recommend it. Respectfully, kb6vdo
God bless, best of 73s, de kb6vdo, jim
I agree that the concentration skills are probably harder to pick back up. There's also the issue of having a life - if you're married (which I was in grad school) that takes time away from your studies but also forces you to be more disciplined when you are studying, and cuts back on the number of caffeine-fueled all-nighters you're willing to pull in a week :-) Having kids presumably makes an even bigger difference. If you're single, dating is probably a good bit different spending five years working (I wouldn't know), but grad school is probably a good place for it. On the other hand, the grad students who are closer to your age and maturity level are likely to be leaving school soon.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
This seems like good advice from someone with the relevant experience. Thanks ! I'll definitely keep these points in mind.
1. Become very knowledgeable about the programs to which you are applying. Do research on all of the professors in the program. Are their research and projects going to take you places?
2. Generally, the name recognition of the school will take you a long way, provided you do well in the program. Make sure sure you do very well! Study hard! Forget partying, playing Quake 3 Arena, Halo, Doom 3, etc... By all means eat well and don't eat junk food; you are what you eat. Be mature and spend as much time with your face firmly planted in books, research articles, journals, etc... You're in a tight race to end with yourself, the other students in your chosen program, and other more reputable schools.
3. If you can, go to the school and interview the professors and gradaute students, and by all means, take notice of how "happy" or "depressed" the graduate students seem to be. This will be in indication of things to come should you decide to go that program. Do the professors seem to know what they are talking about or are they tossing around B.S.? Ask the graduate students if the professors are ethical in their teaching, research, conduct, professionalism, and department politics?
4. When you get into school, keep a VERY DETAILED journal of EVERYTHING that happens; write names, times, dates, events etc... Because, if and when something happens, you will have evidence and data to support your argument, depending on how detail-oriented you are, should anything go "wrong" in your studies.
5. I offer this advice due to my horrible experience in graduate school, which unfortunately is not yet over. My graduate advisor engaged in serious ethics violations and attempted to pursuade me to participate in them. I had to go back to my alma mater and get advice from a professional couselor, undergraduate advisor, director of the career center, and an associate dean (who subsequently contacted the dean of the graduate school and a vice president) on how to resolve the matter, which may at some future time lead to a formal investigation by the state board of reagents. If you suspect that your graduate advisor is engaging in ethics violations, DO NOT participate in them and privately seek profession assistance to resolve the matter.
Your attitude, while not wrong, is only ever uttered by people who *have* money. Those who live nearer the poverty line will take crappy, wellpaying jobs over excellent, poor-paying jobs because they *need* the money. Therefore, well-paying jobs are more valued than enjoyable jobs. The ability to pick a job/employer you like is very much a luxury, not a given.
Not everyone is in your situation. This realization, of course, is also part of the maturity equation.
Seriously, find someone on the faculty who can be your champion. Whether or not they are on the admission committee isn't entirely important (but it helps). Just get someone to think you are pretty OK and willing to put in a good word for you.
Best of luck!
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
- Take a dive again into the basics: algebra, trig, and some calculus. Not only will it surely be in the admission examination (GRE if you are going in the States), but will help you sort any technical class you might have to take. Writing, as you probably now know, is *NOT* an optional skill for any professional. Polish your verbal and writing skills, particularly if English is not your native language.
- Assignments are going to be A LOT TOUGHER now, so do plan your schedule accordingly. Don't think that just because you are taking three-four subjects a week you will have all the free time in the world.
- Schools are always happy to take graduates with working experience and will probably favour applicants with working experience over freshly graduated professionals. Graduate programs have too a "resumee" to build and it looks much better to applicants if they can chip in students from XXX firm.
- If you are going to go to the States, I strongly advise you to get some form of financial support. Most of the graduate programs in the States have limitations that will exclude foreigners from applying to them. I would check with the Indian Education Ministry to see if they have any form of sholarship/assistanceship for an endeavor like this.
- You are taking this great step now, you know how boring most paying jobs can be. Have a blast and get to socialize a lot with all those hot undergrad chicks. You might even consider picking up a girlfriend while you are at it. Also, now that you will have some extra time, may I suggest getting into some kind of sport?
Good luck.My other OS is the MCP!
I'm actually doing what you wrote about: I worked for 8 years as a commercial software developer and recently (like last September) returned to Graduate school for my Masters in computer science. There is alot of things I think I'd like to say about my decision and the ensuing process, including actually being here. Apologies if its a little long.
Make sure you know why are you doing it -
Like others have said, make sure you actually know WHY you want to do a graduate degree. Really, to be honest, there is alot you can do in computers without needing a graduate education to pursue it, unless its a very specific field and/or in R&D. Even then it is sometimes possible to enter a field you want by starting from a junior position at a relevant company as long as location isn't an issue or the money you want to make (which should be true if you are considering becoming a student in the US, UK or Canada). Also if you think you have to have a graduate degree to enter a challenging field I think its a bit of a myth. For example I know that in the game programming community, which may not have a big rep in the academic circles, is extremely challenging and requires its developers to know not only programming but math, physics, AI etc. There are alot of extremely talented and VERY smart people in this field who could knock the socks off of a PhD student in compsci. I had considered, very strongly, to go this route (through employment, not school) but I decided to go back because I in fact, did *want* to be in school. Make sure you do.
Getting in - I can't say enough about what alot of CRAP loophole jumping I had to do to get in. The application process, I think in general, does not look favorably on the mature student. Getting references when you have been away that long is sometimes near impossible, and most of the time they are intersted in your grades, papers you've published or research you've already done. So unless you did it already in your undergrad you'll be lacking in your application. Most commercial work doesn't really apply. Plus, you are competing against recent undergrads who probably knew they wanted to move onto grad studies and in their final year did alot of things to make themselves 'graduate' worthy. That being said, it really depends on the university you are applying to and the supervisor you want to work with. Two profs I contacted wouldn't give me the time of day while two others seem interested. Of those two, only one seemed to appreciate my work experience and encouraged me to come back to school. Find a supervisor like this who is willing to take you on and you are set.
UK, US vs Canada - I actually did check out programs in all 3 countries and here is a very biased comparison of the three: of the 3, Canada typically has the longest Masters program which is about 2 years - as far as I know the other two countries generally offer 50/50 between 1 and 2 year programs; the UK has a nice system where they usually offer a PostGraduate diploma (1 year) which allows you to do the course work portion of your Masters and if you do well enough you can continue onto the full Masters degree; the US has some fantastic research labs and usually allow for a Masters straight into a PhD if you want that sort of thing; all 3 countries will love you because you are an international student and will pay the associated fees (usually 2-3 times as much). BTW, somebody made a comment about why the US and why not study in some other country. My comment is that yes, you really are that good! My Canadian funny money couldn't take me very far in the US but there is some amazing research being done at the US universities that I haven't seen anywhere else.
What you will liked as a mature grad student - learning new things that challenge you and interest you: unlike undergrad days you no longer have to take courses that you find boring since everything you take should be relevant to your research (which should have interested you to begin with or why do it). I've found I'm m
Great, can I have my job back now?
We dont need you here.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I was in a very similar situation to the poster when I came here. Had been working in India for over 3 years. Always wanted to pursue grad. studies. I came to the US in Fall 2001 to San Jose State. Its a great school and have learnt a whole lot. Initially I had all these qualms about whether I made the right choice quitting a nice cosy well-paying job (was working with GE at the time) to pursue further studies. End result - couldn't be more satisfied in life. Don't get me wrong!! It IS a risk... but then, nothing ventured nothing gained. I now have a graduate degree (how many people have Schwarzenegger giving them an MS CS degree? Yeah its signed by him :) ) and a much better paying and higher skill-level job.
I say do it!!
In that case, there's a little too much brown nosing (sorry for the pun) going on and not enough individualism.
It might be different for you, but I'm a 28-year old U.S. Army veteran who is a college senior in a CIS program, and I can tell you the hardest thing about going back to school was realizing how much people just 10 years younger than me annoy the hell out me on a daily basis.
This is how it is in a major public university in the United States:
You'd be surprised at the sheer number of these kids in college can't, don't, or won't clean up after themselves. They spill a creamed-and-sugared coffee on a table eating lunch, what do they do? Rather than getting a few paper towels and cleaning it up, they simply leave it there to become a sticky mess. (Janitorial service here comes every two nights.) Is it that fucking hard to do the right thing?
Be prepared to dodge skateboards and bicycles, despite posted signs saying where it is and is not okay to be riding them. And watch the vandalism start when your school takes measures to prevent skateboards from being used in places where it is dangerous, destructive, or inappropriate.
You'll find that most of the undergrads, especially in the lower division, can't seem to be able to read or follow simple instructions.
The number of cell phones that ring during lectures or even final exams is astonishing. How hard is it to remember to put the phone on silent mode, or better yet, turn it off. I've even seen people answer the phone in class during lecture.
If you've had any world experience that has caused you to mature over the bulk of the students at school, be prepared to feel like you've been shoved right back into high school. As a graduate student it will be better, but you still have to deal with it between classes and in class if your school combines 400- and 500-level courses into one class.
God forbid you wind up at a Pac-10 or other big NCAA school like mine. Nobody in the surrounding community gives a shit about your education. Most of them only care about how the are doing. Nobody blinks an eye when they jack up tuition and fees, they just want to see football and basketball.
Ahh, it's nice to be able to rant every now and then. I feel better.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
I for one welcome our grad. school applying overlords...
Work experience in engineering fields is a GOOD thing. Use it.
You have forgotten almost everything that was useless in the real world. So your comprehensive/qual exams will kick your ass to put it bluntly, plan to study.
You will have NO social life, unless you're already married, in which case you will have no life at all. You simply will not have the time.
Living on the cheap is fine, educational loans are at record low rates, and will be trivial to pay back once the dollar crashes and hyperinflation hits.
I saw alot of posts about partying or dating undergrads. I have some swamp land in Florida for sale...
Most importantly - If you're doing this becasue you think the job market will be better when you get out - forget it unless you're Chinese. Your well paying job in India is already gone, and companies are already looking at African outsourcing because the Chinese are getting too pricey to compete with open source.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Several Reasons: 1) Its really tough to get into a good school. There are very few good grad schools and a huge number of applicants. 2) Doing an MS by research is not the norm here. 3) On the whole, higher education in the US and UK is better.
But some people think they need far more money than they actually do - in order to buy stuff they don't actualy need. Of course, if it weren't for these people we wouldn't have near the number of jobs we currently have (or we'd all be working 20 hours per week). It's tricky, I'll admit, but once you've figured out what you don't need, you're more likely to figure out what you do need.
Naturally, Lazlo's hierarchy of needs comes to mind. You'll notice that cable, etc., is nowhere to be found on that hierarchy, unless you're including it under self-actualization. :)
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
Masters is definitely worth it; PhD only if you are really really smart and enjoy teaching & doing research & writing papers & applying for grants & advising & serving on committees. Being a university prof is a hard job.
At the master's stage you are more interested in the department's rep than in the university's. Figure out who is doing research you are interested in and apply to their departments.
In the 21st century is has now become such that to both prosper, and fend off your foes, in the computer & technology business... you really should become a lawyer too. A JD (Doctorate of Jurisprudence) and passing the bar exam will take you further in the technology business world than any sci, tech or business graduate degree ever will.
No one seems to have mentioned it earlier, but consider going to Canada, simple because it is way cheaper to study there.
As a non-canadian, you will pay 4x more, but it will still be 4x cheaper than in the US or UK. If money is a criteria, it is well worth checking into.
Sometimes nationality cluster at a given school because it is convenient to go where there are others you know. Different schools may have different nationalities.
I learnt very little doing my BSc in Computer Science. All my notes fitted on about 4 sheets of paper. I learnt much more just screwing around writing code.
I didn't learn much doing the other degree either.
Before going back to school, figure out if it's really what you want/need to do. Perhaps you can learn more by changing workplace or taking some time off and getting involved in an open source project or something.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
"well-paying (but boring) job as a software engineer"
Sounds as though - like me - you've got bored of coding. Unless you have a big interest in maths, ask yourself whether postgrad Comp Sci will necessarily be all that interesting to you?
I'd suggest an MBA or similar business degree, which you can then apply in a software business. This was the route I took.
The ISB at Hyderabad has a decent reputation as a business school - or you could always come over here to London, we have a large and thriving Indian community.
Best of luck to you whatever route you choose.
The potential spouse's family wont even look at you unless you got a good education or rich by 25. Although there is less emphasis on "arranged" marriage these days, marriage is still an agreed economic union of families. The husband contributes status and maybe a good economic base, and the wife pays for expensive wedding with lots of gifts to the husbands family.
The number one point you have to realize is this: they need you more than you need them. Universities thrive on novel ideas from grad students. That is like the gasoline that powers higher education. Once you have a research idea, it is like gold. This is because it equals grant funding, academic papers, and more.
If you are expecting someone else to come up with the ideas for your research, you start at a disadvantage. Now that you've been out in the real world for 10 years, you should KNOW what you want to work on. Just go in there and pitch it. That's what I did. Once you have a professor on side, the next step is to write a grant proposal to fund your university life and existence and that is not that hard if you know what you want and have a professor's support. The prof loves it too. After that you just do the work, create something novel, and essential, and enjoy the next three or four years.
PS: I found that graduate school life was a totally different and more enjoyable existence than undergrad. Also, it DID open doors for me. Something about that piece of paper. It does have an effect.
I'll address #3 since I think that's the killer
:o)
I got my BS CS in Dec 2000, went to work for a DoD company for 2.5 years then went to graduate school. I'm currently in my last semester of the 2 year program I choose so I'll share the pit falls.
Money
Your Own
You gotta watch this. I saved a lot of money before going back and it's all gone, even the money I made off my tax returns, since I stopped working mid way through, is gone. It's really hard to step back your spending habits, especially when it comes to things like food, and not eating out a lot as I did. So save as much as you can before hand and make a budget and stick to it!
As an aside, for americans. The FAFSA which denotes how much you get in student loans, as well how much is subsidized will kill you because the form assumes that since you worked the previous tax season you will be working this tax season and therefor you will get probably nothing in loans. What you need to do is petition the financial aid office at your school to manually evaluate your income based on the actual condition for the year ( basically adjust your gross income), that is how much you will be making during the school year. For my first year this was $0 so my loans were then able to cover my tuition etc for a decent part.
Funding
If you are going just for a Masters program do not expect to get an Assistanceship, expect to have to pay tuition, fees and all living costs out of pocket, and via student loans. GaTech, my school, is like this and the TAs and RAs are very hard to come by, they ever fired all the MS TAs two semesters ago due to budget issues. Some schools I think are able to more definitively offer funding of some sort, but be aware.
Time
Going back to school is pretty much turning your life over to academics. Do not plan on having much free time, no more 9-5 then stop working. This was and has continued to be the hardest thing for me. It's compounded by the fact that not everything will be scheduled for you, eg independant work, or working assistanceships that pay you. It's easy to let all that get lost in the mix and set to the side simply because you are getting your course work done.
So accept up front that you will be working most of the time and deal with it and be happy when you do have time.
Etc
I would advise not getting cable for a couple months after you start. First live without it then if you think you can manage having it just get basic
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
A graduate degree in CS really solidified my knowledge of the field after obtaining a BS in computer science and 4 years working for IBM. It was helpful because you get boxed-in to your company's view of the world and a graduate degree broadens your horizons. It exposes you to things that you would probably never look at in a job, things like AI languages and what is up and coming 10 years before it becomes mainstream. It made me a much more competent programmer. Familiarization with theory also made me more able to spot, and avoid, doomed to failure projects at work when I saw them. Problems with going back to school for me were swallowing my pride (and income!) and becoming a student again. Professors want students, not critics or rivals. This was something I had to get used to again. As someone else mentioned, I found that with age, my ability to perform math had increased a great deal. This was good because I really sucked at math before and I was now mediocre. A tremendous improvement that allowed me good grades. Finally, buddy up with the other students. There are no extra points for toughing it out on your own. I made B's and C's until the other students felt pity and started feeding me old tests and assignments. It was straight A's after that!
-- IV
http://www.LinuxMedNews.com Revolutionizing Medical Education and Practice.
Give me a physical Break
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
Canadian Masters degrees are either for professional development or a step towards getting a PhD. In the US a Masters degree in some fields, without a PhD, may be interpreted as a 'terminating Masters'. That is, something they give to students who are not smart enough to continue in the graduate program.
Like you, I returned to school in order to find more interesting, more challenging work. Unfortunately, a Masters in Comp. Sci. did not open many new opportunities. My friends in grad school continued to get their PhDs and they are now university profs. If I had it to do over again, I would follow that route.
I've just finished my first semester of grad school after a 7-8 year break. My undergrad is in Comp Sci, I'm getting an MBA now. I'm also in night school, as opposed to full time, but here's what I'd suggest...
1. As much as possible, take at least half the course load in relativly "easy" courses. (To the degree such things exist in grad school...)
2. Forget about a social life for the first semester. Concentrate on school work (see #3)
3. Over prepare. In under grad, I'd usually just skim the text and do as little (ungraded) homework as possible to get a handle on the material. Since you've been away, spend lots of extra time even going over unassigned problems.
4. Get the "answer guides" for text books, when possible. If you use them appropriately (ie: AFTER you do the homework) you'll be able to see what you got wrong and maybe even have time to email the profs or get other assistance.
While I don't know how grad schools in general think, my school (William & Mary, Williamsburg, VA) places less emphasis on undergrad work the longer you've been out of school.
What's the difference between an orange?
2) What are the differences between graduate studies at the Masters level in the US, Canada and the UK? I already know a bit from what is available on the websites, so I'm looking for some deeper insights.
Reputation, money and reputation.
I'm a Canadian student, and I will tell you up front that many of our schools, even the bigger/better ones, don't carry as strong a reputation as American or British schools. It's not that the education is any worse, more that the other schools have been around for longer, have a better established reputation, and spend more advertising dollards.
That said, there are two ways to look for a school. The first is to find a school with a great reputation and go there. It will help you get a better job, quicker than going to a less heard of school. If your goal is money, do this.
If your goal is learning, then your job is a little tougher. You should pick the subjects that you are interested in, and then find the *people* that hold the best reputation. These people could be anywhere. When you are looking to get a good education it is not just the school that matters (although a school with better funding will make things easier) but the person teaching you. Pick the top three profs in the field that you want to study, and apply to those schools. In most cases, you should start by meeting/talking with the prof that you want to study with. By establishing a bond with the prof you have a better chance of getting in.
Be prepared to deal with the politics of Graduate School. I'm currently getting a Masters in CS and here is just a sampling of things to be prepared for:
1) A large % of the class works full time as a local area employer will basically pay for all of your eduation. That said, professors still expect that you have infinite amounts of expendable time on your hands (though some professors will reflect this in a really flexible grading system, i.e. get the work done and you will be ok).
Example from a recent class:
"Not only do you have to learn the course material but you must also learn this new proprietary programming language that I (the professor) have created and am getting funding for to complete the assignments; never mind the fact that you will never use my language in the real world."
Note also the sense of self-imporantance and the pawining off of work the professor is doing in the above.
2) Teaching Assistants
Be prepared to be corrected, mis-informed, receive your grade from other Grad School-ers who believe they know everything, have a chip on their shoulder, don't have enough time themselves to properly grade the assignment, have never worked in the "real" world.
3) Expect to be taught by professors who haven't worked in the "real" world in decades. Once in a rare while you will come across a few who know what it's like. This is a bit harder to explain but, there are "work" polititcs and "university" politics, some are similar but some things are different.
I know it sounds like I am complaining but if you are aware of these things and don't let them bother you, it's really not bad at all.
I went back to graduate school after being away for almost 30 years (MS Physics 1976). It was as if I never left although I was the oldest kid in class!
I'm in the exact situation you are in, and in a week I'll start classes for the first time in 4 years working for my MS in CS.
A number of friends of mine who have already been to graduate school all highly recommended this book: Getting what you came for... by Robert Peters. I haven't even started my first semester yet and I've found it to be enormously helpful.
Best of luck!
akad0nric0
This sentence no verb.
I wasn't worried about it until I read this "ask slashdot" from a guy worried about going back after a 5 year absence.
Should I start worrying?
I went back and got a master's degree. Started it when I was 35. It was a lot of fun. My advice;
1) Go and do it. Don't put it off. Life only gets busier.
2) Be financially prepared.
3) Read "Write your dissertation first and other essays on a graduate education" by M. David Merril. http://www.id2.usu.edu/Papers/Contents.html
If you are planning on doing research, go to a university with a good research program, preferably in a field you are interested in. If you want to do classroom only, go to a university that has a reputation for being a good university.
For computer engineering, in the US, that means a list that starts out with schools like University of Texas at Austin, University of Wisconsin, MIT, Georgia Tech, CalTech, maybe University of California at Berkely, University of Illinois, and several others. But even these schools vary: for Computer Architecture (what I do) UT and UW are very good, but for Digital Signal Processing (also what I do, I guess), Georgia Tech and MIT are very good.
I don't know too much about schools outside the US. I know that Cambridge does stuff with Xen and virtualization that is very interesting. I know that University of New South Wales in Australia does interesting stuff with the L4 microkernel. But I list these only because they have touched what I've done at work, I'm positive that there are other UK/Aus schools that do other interesting research.
Basically, I would suggest familiarizing yourself with what research you are interested in and go to a school that does research in that area. At least, if you want a research-based degree. If you just want to take a bunch of classes, pick a good school and go.
But a graduate degree from a mediocre school is probably pretty useless.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Here in the Silicon Valley, Santa Clara University is the local Catholic school, and they let you attend grad school part-time. Classes are mostly 7-9AM weekdays. It's not ideal for PhDs (they have very little "research" going on), but the part-time bit is priceless to me. I have a wife and kids (and a mortgage), and they objected to the usual vow-of-poverty implied by grad school. http://www.scu.edu
You are in the same situation as I was a few years back. Good pay. Bad job. Easy way out = Chill out in school in US. Here are some ground realities.
It is good to get a MS. Gives a new perspective on things.
But keep focus on your goal: "A better non-boring job in less than 2 years". I lost focus during my second year and am still in school after 3.5 years while others that joined along with me are in the workforce. I got my MS though.
I read the other replies.
The good one: "Don't get married during school."
The bad one: "Take student loans".
Those who said "take loans" are probably US residents. Nobody in the US(atleast) gives student loans or any other kinds of loans for that matter, to foreign students. Who is gonna trust you? What if you pack your bags after school? I don't know about UK/Canada.
Decision making:
o If you get no funding try other schools.
o If you have to pay for your own living, with school fees and tuition taken care of by a combination of fee waivers and assisstantships, think hard about coming.
o If your school pays you such that you can live on it, do come. (This might be hard currently.)
Remember, schools hire grad students like employees and look at them like one after that. 'cos most grads get paid in some form by the school. So, you got to pay them back in the form of research papers and get out soon. They can't keep you forever.
Focus, Focus. Focus. "A better non-boring job in less than 2 years."
The big difference is that in Canada, people typically finish their Master's before getting a PhD, whereas in the States, they often apply directly to a PhD. Grad school to the PhD level usually takes a few years longer in Canada as a result.
This implies that Canadian schools take their master's students more seriously than U.S. ones, because it's not known whether you'll go further to a PhD (and helping your professor's reputation) or be a so-called "terminal master's" (sounds like a disease doesn't it). In the U.S., since a high percentage of master's students are terminal master's, the professors are less likely to invest as much time and effort into them. In the worst case, the U.S. master's can get seen as a tuition farm or a kind of dumping ground for PhD dropouts, whereas in Canada the master's is seen as a somewhat necessary step along the way to a PhD.
This is talking about research (M.S. or M.Sc.) master's of course. Professional master's degrees are a whole nuther ballgame, and usually involve big tuition in exchange for more job security.
Speaking as someone who is on a graduate admissions committee for a physics department in Canada what I look for in applications is the general ability to be able to perform the research and then, and most importantly, a keen interest and enthusiasm for the research. The latter I rank as the most important, provided that a minimum ability to be able to do physics is demonstrated!
Research involves a lot of banging your head against obstacles until either you think your way through it or around it. To keep doing that requires a keen intererest and enthusiasm for the subject far more than a brilliant mind (though that does help!). In addition undergraduate courses show the ability to learn and not the ability to do research. While there is often a close link between the two someone who can learn extremely well may lack the intellectual curiousity and drive that is essential for research.
So my advice to you would be to contact the faculty directly in the departments to which you applied, find out what research they are doing and decide what interests you. Demonstrate your interest and enthusiasm and you'll do a lot better than simply sending off an application form and hoping.
[Posting as AC so that this post cannot be regarded as a recruitment advert!]
While five years in the workplace probably helps, for God's sake, don't wait ten years like I did. The first thing the school looks for is signs of Alzheimer's, having you (re)take a semister or two of upper division courses. Understandable, but still a pain in the ass.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Apuh pretends to be married to Marge for the sake of his visiting family.
What exactly do you want to do? If you do not like software engineering, you must like something else in IT in order to make your MS useful in the future. Otherwise, you'll be stuck with the same boring, but advanced, stuff on a daily basis. Is this what you want?
IMO, graduate schools are for those who figured out what they want to do in life after getting an undergraudate degree and working for a while. If you are not sure what you want to do, why bother? Why would you want to spend several years in school doing something that will lead you nowhere? I got a BS in CS in '03. I wanted to go to grad school right away; thankfully, I did not. After working in the field, I realized that I want to do a totally different thing in life. I am going to wait several more years just to make sure that what I think I want is what I want... and then get a degree in Economics.
There's just no reason to casually toss "India" in the mix, unless it was trolling.
I chose to go as a full time day student. The first semester was hell, I sucked. I passed only on the generosity of the professors. I worked hard. By the end of the first year I was doing fine. Fine means I was getting A's. But after growing up a bit some of the silliness of academia is difficult to bear. Overall, first semester was my only shocker.
Ah Dude, he said he was from India and Quit his job in India. Thats kinda germaine to the whole thing, that started whole trollish nature of this article. If he said I quit my job in Cleveland, there would have been probably a dozen or so replies to this article.
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
I took a break from working in the software industry, to join for a grad course in the UK. The reason being that you could get an MSc in an years time. But the downside is that quality of students are not apparently as good compared to good US universities. The chances of finding funding in UK is very low. Most of the departments are on a tight budget, you would be lucky if you get a new machine. Faculty members are generally good. I have been previously in some of the top institutes in India. From my experience I think the British counter parts are more formal. The other downsides include the fact that there are no graduate courses offered, most of the courses offered are undergrad levels. Advantage of pursuing a PhD would be that you could do it 3 years time . Again there is the question of funding. I am not sure even the best institutions in the UK are comparable to the top US counterparts, in terms of facilities, faculty funding etc.
I'm a US citizen in my second semester as a Math Master's student at a Canadian University. A few things to consider:
1. Canadian universities tend to treat Masters and Ph. D. programs as totally separate -- for example, I will have to totally reapply to my university once I finish the Masters, to get into the Ph. D. program. US schools often merge Masters and Ph. D, and it may be harder to get JUST a Masters' in the states (Most of the US schools I applied to gave me very odd looks when I asked about that).
2. As a result, many Canadian universities have specialized Masters programs for people who want more education, but don't want to devote 5 or 6 extra years of their life to a Ph. D. I don't know if you want that or not, but it's something to consider. Ask around and they may have a program that is LOOKING for someone like you!
3. When you are accepted to a foreign university which you are even THINKING of attending, start the immigration/student visa procedure immediately. Between getting a passport and applying for a student visa, I ran right up to the last minute (I started 4 months early). At one point, the Canadian Consulate General returned my entire application, untouched, because I'd sent TOO MUCH MONEY in for a fee. (About $5 Canadian extra, by accident.)
This doesn't apply only to "non-traditional" students (i.e. you), but I hope it helps!
I'm going back to school but not for anything CS related; I'm applying to interdisciplinary science programs. I'll probably specialize in molecular biology, genetics, or developmental biology.
But in this field in order of importance it is: 1) Experience in -real- hypothesis based research (school projects, hahahaha. no.) 2)Recommendations/References/Knowing Someone 3)GRE Scores 4)GPA
The goal of a science PhD program is to teach you how to do research, so any past experience in doing that is a good prediction of how successful you will be in grad school, that's why it's the most important. I'm sure something paralell for CS PhD's exists, whatever the point of a CS PhD is :P~
Letters of recommendation all should come from someone with a PhD who currently works in the field who knows you well. Knowing someone or contacting a professor ahead of time just gets your application noticed or looked over a little more carefully (which is good...). But it isn't the most important by any means.
GPA means next to nothing (unless you've got like a 2.0/4) Someone with a 3.0 GPA at Yale probably knows more than someone with a 3.5 at Florida State. This is why GRE scores are more important, they put all the grad school applicants on a level playing field.
Just my 2 cents.
...is why did you quit your well paying job before you even applied to grad school? I would have applied and waited until I got accepted somewhere, then quit. There must be more to this story.
Girls have cooties.
No eating boogers.
George II -- Spreading Freedom and American values, one bomb at a time.
Gota love mods. Idiots.
I thought you said "Retake Calcutta!"
I too am in this situation.
:-)
Just remember two things:
1) be diligent - study hard and do your work
2) the level of excellence you should expect the professors to expect is higher than you're expecting
Power to the Penguin!
My advice for going back to school. I spent the past 2 years researching different careers to really nail down what I wanted to do. With my BA in Art and a BS in Computer Science I knew that I wanted to be in a creative field and not entirely away from computers. What I found was the field of Art Direction. Talk about perfect fit for me and my education! The problem I had with pursuing this career is I didn't have the correct experience to pursue it! ack! That's when I started looking at graduate programs.
1. Figure out exactly what you want to do. Whatever you do.. do not just apply to graduate programs for something to do or because you are at a boring job. Actually enjoy or love what you are doing and be excited about doing it! It will show through in the personal essay you will have to wrtie.
2. Make sure you talk to the Graduate Advisor of the program you are applying for. I didn't realize this until late in my application process! EEK! Ask him/her any questions you can think of and ask them what profs would be best to contact for the studies you want to do. After you do this make sure to contact the professors!!!! Email them first and set up a phone meeting with them and talk to them for 10 to 20 minutes. MOST IMPORTANT is to send thanks you letters to each one of them thanking them for their time!!! Make sure you keep your name in front of their face as much as possible, because if you don't have stellar grades (like myself) they will want to see your application (because they now know you) and you won't be put in that stack of screen outs "grades and test scores are too low." You're application will be read by the profs that you've contacted and shown how professional you can be. REMEMBER!!! That applying for grad school is like applying for a job so do everything you would do as if you were applying for a job!
I hope my experiences so far can help someone out! Good luck!
I don't know what the differences in programs between the US and UK are, but I can tell you that if you aren't a US citizen it will be more difficult to get into a US grad school. Tax dollars help fund many grad schools, so those schools will be missing out on money for every foreign student they take. Also post 9/11 its much more difficult to get a student Visa and grad schools are a little more reluctant to accept foreign students.
While probably not applicable to someone from the UK, many US grad schools have the grad students act as Teaching Assistants. Anyone who's taken a Physics, calculus or chemistry class has probably had a foreign TA who doesn't speak english very well. These are all things the grad schools take into account when they accept students.
These are all things I've heard from one of my recommenders (who also happens to be on a selections committee =D)
I wish I had mod points, becuase you are spot on.
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
I'm sure it depends on the region and school, as attitudes vary a lot. But at 40, even with demonstrated ability and a proven track record, I feel a lot of age prejudice.
First, it's a class thing. This is worse on the East Coast -- I really believe CA is much more egalitarian. One who is middle aged but not yet through college or grad school is seen as some kind of fallen person. Most registrars and profs are from upper middle class, white collar backgrounds themselves, and feel uncomfortable with anything else. Young people are not peers anyway, and therefore not threatening. Plus they're a clean slate. But registrars and profs have many prejudices about people their own age, who are not exactly like themselves. "Typical sales type, not an intellectual," or, "postal worker type, not an original thinker," or "typical hairdresser, probably flaky," etc. Then there's the, "if you're so smart, then why did you spend so many years doing X," attitude -- as if college, grad school, internship, then working for BigCorp is the only path in life. The only way around these prjudices is to have a marketable sob story, like how you swam all the way from Cambodia and/or raised younger siblings by working three jobs all through your twenties. Even with stellar grades, the doubt will always be present.
Academics love to talk about how everyone has untapped potential. But underneath, what they really believe in is destiny. You have to convince them that your destiny was academic and/or white collar all along. Having "fallen" into anything else is evidence to the contrary.
Also, colleges like kids who are being supported by Mom and Dad. It brings in money. And if Mom and Dad are rich, it might bring in endowments -- especially if Junior will inherit.
I used to be against affirmative action. But now, feeling a sort of prejudice myself, I can't imagine how bad it is for a minority student. No matter how good you are, you're always at a disadvantage if you don't quite fit in with the rest of the gang.
Finally, 70% of college students in the US are "non-traditional." But you'd never know it, from how everything is geared toward young people supported by Mom and Dad. Someone ought to tell college administrators!
I went back to graduate school after 10 years in industry. I am a US citizen so my experience may be a little different then yours.
First step was to study and prep for the GRE (subject and general) I did ok on both about 90% on english math and cs. My undergraduate degree is from UC Berkeley where I had just above a 3.7 in CS.
My particular situation was also different then yours, in that I had supported my wife through medical school/residency and she was going to support me through grad school. Consequently, I looked for schools near where we wanted to live and where she was going to work (Newport Beach, CA, USA).
I applied to UC Irvine, UCLA, UC San Diego for a PHD program in Artificial intelligence. I spent a lot of time on my personal statement and had others read it for clarity, grammar etc.
I was accepted to all of the programs and ended up going to UCI where I am very happy. All financial support offers were about the same. Aproximately Tuition + $15K-19K
I was not applying to the very top schools but based on my small sample, it is very possible to get accepted after having worked for several years.
Honestly, all of this depends upon the school and grad program you enter. A graduate degree can be anything from an easily acquired MBA from a lame grad program, or it can be massive personal sacrifice.
You really have to visit or call universities. Talk to the people who run graduate programs that interest you. They all look for different admissions criteria and range in difficulty.
I'm currently enrolled in a graduate graphic and interactive design program. It's not uncommon for me to do 60+ hours of school work a week. It sucks. I have absolutely no social life, I can't work, I'm living off of student loans, I'm up to my eyes in debt, and although I'm still fairly young (25) - my body can't stay up for hours on end like it once did.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
I worked for 3 years before returning to school to get my PhD in chemistry. Taking the time off before I went back was probably the smartest thing I did.
/., you will get things done quicker than someone who is fresh out of undergrad and views graduate school as "school" and not as a job. Professors have a lot more interest in you since they know you're more dedicated to school and are in it for the long haul.
You will find that you treat graduate school more as a job and less as school. As long as you don't spend all day on
Some advice:
1. Find something to do that isn't graduate school; it will keep you sane. This was the single greatest piece of advice given to me on my way to graduate school. Preferably, find something that doesn't involve other graduate students. I train martial arts to get my head out of chemistry.
2. Cut your expenses accordingly. If you take a 50% cut in pay, cut all your expenses by 50%. You will find that you stay busy enough that your paltry stipend doesn't bother you so much. Take this time as a lesson in how to budget.
3. When looking for a major professor (advisor), make sure you like the guy. He will control your life for a number of years. Talk to graduate students who have been there at least 3 years as they won't sugar coat everything.
4. When looking at schools, ask lots of questions about money. You won't be making much so every bit helps. Ask stupid things like the following:
How much does parking cost? (this can get pricey)
What about health care?
Are there any hidden fees? (typically student fees)
Do I have to pay for conferences?
Does my stipend increase every year to offset the cost of living?
Hope this helps. Best of luck.
The better (top 40-50 in the US) graduate schools exist primarily to create more professors.
Actually, this may appear to be the case from your perspective in grad school, but the cold hard truth is that there are very few faculty openings. There are often well over 100 applications for each mid/top-level open faculty position. Admittedly, the top schools do have a higher hit rate which will improve your odds. However, the dirty little secret of all PhD programs is that the bulk of the PhDs will spend their careers as staff researchers in various academic, government, and industry labs.
i quite my job in the winter of 2003. i, too, am studying computer engineering after 6 years in the workplace. the difference between us is that i never got an undergraduate degree in the first place: i flunked out of my first college.
of my experiences that would be interesting to you, i can say this:
profesors tend to be very interested in hearing about what is happening in the real world. grab their interest and speak your mind about what you perceive is happening in the field you want to study. you have been closer to that field than most of their other applicants.
secondly, and something you didn't ask about at all, you are now older than most of the other students. i hope this affects you as it did me. every project or task seems more approachable as some part of your mind holds onto the idea that, "if some 20 year old kid (18 in my case) can do it, i can do it easily"!
this fades a bit with time. i have been at umass amherst for 4 semesters and the effect has mostly worn off as i view the rest of the students as peers. it was certainly an advantage in the begining though as with the old saying, "perception is nine tenths of reality". be just arrogant enough to show that you know your experiences are worth something - something the others don't have.
- im just sick of fixing windows all the time -
I'd also point out that education and healthcare are not rights, as excercising "rights" does not require coerced participation by a third party.
2nd reply- Health care is not a right. It's a NEED. As in food, clothing, shelter, water, medical care. One of the basics needed to survive as we pollute the planet beyond basic survival of our species and short circuit evolution to allow more people to survive. Fullfilling needs is NOT ENTITLEMENT- it's basic HUMAN RIGHTS as described in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Heck- you really need to look up what is a right- because a free-market capiatlistic society is NOT a right. It's a luxury.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html. Note most of the so-called "rights" that idiots like you have been brainwashed to believe in are not- they're priviledges that must be paid for by sacrificing real human rights.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Keep your money stored. Do something to give you a living that doesn't suck every hour. Write your dream project at home.
Yeah, that was really insightful and on the mark, if perhaps not the most delicately phrased (although for something this important, perhaps bluntness is called for).
The mods must have just gotten a shipment in from Columbia.
I'm sure you know how easy it is to bag indian women...
I just completed a Master's program and I found this book to be very helpful.
It will give you some idea of the politics and tactics used to get through a grad program.
Never confuse feeling with thinking.
that's where all the jobs are anyway.
Maybe we just had a crap lot of students, but in the second year of my CS degree I put the One Third rule to one of my lecturers.
...
Basicly only 1/3 of the students could program.... that is, give them a task and they could go away and figure out an algorithm and turn it into code.
1/3 could do the job if you made things easy. Tell them an algorithm, make suggestions on how to actually lay it out.
And the final third just relied on copying others, random guesses until something did the job, scrounging through rubbish bins for printouts... PAYING others to do the work (disguised as "tutoring")
So many people who just shouldn't have been there. They should have being off finding out what they are actually good at in life.
Well, I'm not sure if a response to the OP's question is allowed in this forum; judging by the posts so far (less than 200) it appears not, but I'll take a chance.
I suppose I should also preface my remarks with the comment that my experience is not up-to-the-minute-current (:-)). I got my undergrad degree in 1965, spent 5 years in the nuclear Navy and then returned to graduate school. I took the GREs and applied to 5 schools. I never heard from one, was rejected at one, accepted at one without financial, accepted another with financial aid, and heard late (after I'd accepted) from one that lost all the applications for awhile!) Who knows how the experience played there -- mixed I'd guess.
I ended up at Johns Hopkins in a PhD only (no MS) program.
There were 10 of us newbies at JHU/CS in 1970-- 5 had been working, in various fields, for 3-8 years, and 5 were coming straight from undergrad. I can't tell you what the faculty was thinking, but looking at those numbers it doesn't look like they considered it a negative. There were some interesting differences between the two groups. Those coming straight to Grad school from undergrad found gradschool was harder than they were used to. Those coming back to school from work found it much more enjoyable and easier than working. The first one through was one of those coming straight from undergrad. On the other hand, he was the only one in his group that actually completed the program. One of those coming back dropped out, the rest of us finished. The undergrad finished in about 3 years. I took 5. The longest took 7 (which was the time limit).
I spent some time in my last year of working reading up on the area I was interested in pursuing, including stopping by a couple of college bookstores and finding interesting textbooks.
My undergrad was BA, Math/Physics. The PhD was intended to be Computer Science, but the department died my first year, we were grandfathered into the EE department, which became EE/CS. The fact that I'd worked in another field was not a problem.
I think the work experience was very valuable in gradschool -- it helped me focus on important issues. I'm a kinda theory type, but I like to wallow in the bits, too. JHU is/was focused on theory, which I liked, but I could also stay close to practice.
One big difference was as a LT, USN, I was used to having responsibility and being "allowed" anywhere. As a grad student, I was in a significantly different position -- I couldn't even get into equipment room to mount a paper tape without "supervision" -- that was a change.
In general, I think work experience is a plus. You'll have some adjustment to do to get back to studying, but your perspective will be an asset some of your fellow students will benefit from.
I also benefitted by having a colleague who was on leave from Bell Labs in my class. I liked his stories enough that when I finished, that's where I went (Development, not Research). You'll provide similar benefits to your fellow students.
When I taught as a visiting professor, students with work experience were an asset to the class, too. You probably wouldn't want to go to any place that considered it a problem.
I say, go for it! It sure beats working.
joe
I don't understand something. Educated people in other less developed countries SEEM to want to move to one of several countries to work (in my perceived ranking):
1. United States
2. Canada
3. UK
4. Germany
5. France
6. Other European countries...
7. New Zealand
8. Australia
9. Whomever I left out
This is my perception.
My humble question is: why don't they change their country to be like one in the list?
For instance, what prevents India from becoming a much bigger version of the USA? It seems that is what they want.
What am I missing? Please educate me.
Thanks
Absolutely- in saying that schools exist to *create* more professors- I wasn't trying to imply that *everyone* going to graduate school *becomes* a professor, certainly not. Just trying to make clear the purpose of the institution, which is to act as a filter.
:) Though I *do* want to get a PhD, it's simply because the type of work involved and the mental and publication training is what I'm looking to gain. I'm not operating as though the outcome is that I'll become a professor.
Academia is (still) very much a closed world environment, very different from industry, and one in which industry credentials have little or no value (in contrast to industry, which does place value in academic credentials, though fairly often in error).
Another side of the coin is illustrated in the fact that professors *never* come from industry. Industry leaders can and often do come from academia, but *not* the other way around.
Professors never lack a PhD, never lack a substantial *research* publication history, never lack fund raising and grant writing experience- but they *often* lack industry experience.
Industry experience is simply not in the top 5 issues of importance in the academic space. Thus, this is reflected in the admissions process, more so in PhD than MS admissions, but still in MS admissions as well.
Once in school, again, the teaching and evaluation process for PhDs is structured to identify those that could possibly become professors, and feed them further along in the system. The teaching and evaluation process for MS students is geared to maximize revenue, to primarily provide a coursework (not a research) credential in exchange for dollars.
These are important things to understand for someone wanting to go back to "academia." What they may be wanting is a taste of the PhD experience, but in reality, what they are more likely to get is the MS experience, since they lack in academic credentials, and thus lack in "promise" to become professors.
Again to contrast with industry, while it's a necessity now to work for some time before going back to get an MBA, it is very rare for a student to leave school, work for a while, then go back and wind up becoming a professor. Once you leave, you're off the track.
Personally I'm under no illusions about becoming a professor.
What I do imagine the outcome being is that I'll start another company, but with a better sense of exactly what I want to be doing, and thus will be better able to structure the business so that I can be doing what I want to be doing. And a PhD in some cases is an aid in gathering resources to start certain kinds of companies. There is no corresponding aid that industry experience lends when returning to academia.
I was in a pretty similar position as you were. IIT (Comp. Sc.) + 2 years experience. Went for a Masters at UOfA Tuscon. I came out without any loans and 0 satisfaction. Classes are easy and the only thing faculties care about is their project funding.
If you really want to do good research in Computer Science just head over to IISC banglore.
I've been on the admission committee of one top 5 CS undergrad program and one top 20 CS grad program in the US.
Software engineering experience is viewed *extremely* positively as long as your GRE and GPA are excellent too.
Professors are always on the lookout for students who can translate ideas to implementation with minimum supervision.
I was a consultant for roughly 5 years. I'd been UNIX Systems Manager at a huge company. I had staff. I was Somebody.
Then I went back to University (U.S., State Univ) on an "assistantship" (read: 'free ride') and practically burned the place down :-)
Once you've had a "down system", like a 24-processor AT&T that's having the "stiction problem" with 40 IBM hard drives in 8 RAID-5 LUNs and you run a 5-man crew 24x7 (since you could NOT allow those drives to spin down, you had to fix the system while it was running) --- and get it back in service over a Friday night, all day Saturday, and half of Sunday....well, sitting in a classroom listening to a professor read^H^H^H^H pontificate from their own book is very hard to take. Especially when you know that in the real world, the "knowledge" the professor is imparting will actually hurt the kids who are absorbing it...
Hearing students then parrot that professor does not help. I'm a "mentor" type, so I tried to help. Gratitude? They reacted angrily (the students, not the professor!).
Group assignments? There's always a loudmouth who has just the tiniest grasp of the subject and yet feels they simply must "lead" by talking - and when you step up to the natural leadership role, they don't run to the professor, but to the Dean of the Department of Computer Science. I soon found myself having my second one-on-one "interview" with the Dean of the Department of Computer Science <BEG>.
Small lesson from my pain: lower your ego-meter. Bite your tongue. Practically in half.
Of course, once I proved I wasn't full of hot air, I developed a following, just as I've done wherever I go. But, at the beginning, it was enough that I almost gave up.
Oh, and the $15K kick the moment I left the school with the Master's degree was definitely satisfying. This was mid-90s, so I'm not sure if THAT rule still applies...good luck!
Redundancy is good; triple redundancy is twice as good! - Me.
Graduate schools tend to favor incoming students with work experience over those without. It helps you understand the things you are learning at a much more intricate level of granularity, because in most cases you'll sit in class and cover material that you can readily relate to work experience or things you fought with while on the job.
You need to be more precise though about what you plan on studying as a computer engineer. I myself am an EE/CPE, with work experience in software but planning to study at the graduate level, electronics instead. Computer engineering is a pretty broad field of study, so you could end up studying software again, or electromagnetics and physics to implement nanotubules as transistors. T
I'd say overall you'd enjoy the classes more than anything, as you'll be able to learn more about alot of things that plagued you while you worked and you always wished you knew. Good luck!
1) Typically, how do graduate admissions officials view work experience? Note that I haven't been working as a Computer Engineer but as a Software Engineer.
Usually, they don't. Most universities don't concider work experience to be equivilant to credits. Prior training/certifications might. Colleges, however, tend to look more favorably on work experience.
However, all is not in vain. Most institutes, college or university, have "Prior Learning Assesments", or PLAs. This gives you the oppertunity to show that you have the equivilant knowledge of a course already. It differes institution to institution, but basically, the way it works is:
- You say you want to PLA a course
- You convince the dean that you have the knowledge to do this
- You pay a fee
- You write the final exam
- You get a credit or you don't.
I manage to PLA 1/2 of a 3 year diploma based on prior experience.
3) I'd like to hear from people who've done this, i.e. quit their jobs and gone back to get a higher engineering degree. What problems did you face and what advice do you have?
99% of the students are going to be young whippersnappers. =) Seriously, though, it's tough to get back into learning, but as long as you commit yourself to it, you'll be fine. Going back is a serious pain in the finances. However, you have to look at it as an investment in your future. Short term pain for long term gain.
Also, try to keep the work schedule you are used to. If you worked a 9-5 job, try to stay on campus 9-5. Going to school IS a full time job. (Going to classes is just a part of that job). Don't let yourself fall out of the "40 hours a week of work" attitude.
UTF-8: There and Back Again
In NYS, the department of education gives me 3 years to get my masters degree after applying for provisional certification. Oh, and I can apply for 4th year if I complete 75% of the coursework in the first 3 years.
Yes, getting a masters degree is a good idea -- eventually.
No, getting the masters right away while trying to get started is NOT improving the quality of education in this state.
Oh well - as usual, the students, and thus society, pay the highest price.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Godspeed you on your way.
MASLOW
I was reading the responses from people and see that there are quite a few like me who went back to school only after doing a crap job of it the first time and getting on with our professional careers. I don't feel like such a failure anymore. :)
My questions though are slightly different. I'm already back in school at my local JC, abusing the company dime to pay for my education and doing it as economically as possible. I still work a full-time job as a sys admin on the overnight shift. I have the benefit of an off-kilter Thursday through Sunday work schedule that allows me to concentrate on studies the other three days as well as bosses who don't mind that I do schoolwork during the downtime on the job. Now comes the tricky part.
I'm looking to transfer and complete my BS in Computer Science while still working full-time. What I'm looking for though is a quality school that offers what I can best term as a "working person's" program for getting their degree in CS. I live in Southern California and know from word of mouth via a few friends that went there and now work for NASA that Cal Poly Pomona has a program of very good reputation and a set up that will allow people to continue to work while getting their degrees at night.
But what I don't know is if there are other schools in Southern California that provide quality night programs for CS. I really don't want to go to Cal State Fullerton because their program pales in comparison to Pomona's. Does anyone know if UCLA or UCI offer a quality night program that has a working person in mind? USC? Any other suggestions?
I'm sure that there are other people with the same situation out there how have either gone through this same scenario or are looking at the same thing in their immediate future, so I figure this is the best place to look for advice in that regard. If there are people who have done so in other regions of the country, say where you went. It won't be of good use to me, but I'm sure it will be to someone else.
To have education *AND* work experience.
Bastards.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Or, since I am of metric persuasion, YKMV.
The best lunch meals I ever had were in University, were for a couple of dollars (the equivalent in Mexican pesos back then) we used to get a pretty decent three course meal.
A nice cream or soup, rice, main course (lightly breaded fish was my fav) with side order of veggies or salad, dessert and a drink. it beats $MEGACORP's canteen any time!
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
How about this: What are good divergent fields of study for those that are returning to school. Bonus points to field that aren't specifically IT.
For example, for the code-monkeys, what's a good course to take that is different enough from what we're doing now, but still likely to be of interest. Same for the sysadmins, etc.
Personally I'm somewhat of both (more sysadmin, but code-monkey too as we don't have any programmers on hire). I'd like to do more with my hands though, and have an interest in automotive mechanics. Of course, a mechanics course is not very close to what I do now (except for basic simularities between computer and car repair) but it would definately be a decent fallback field should IT suffer another major bubble burst. If I were to apply the mechanics concept to an IT-style field, perhaps I might look at something like robotics or some of the more hardware-intimate fields...
Would love to go back to school (time and money providing), but not sure what I'd go back for. My experience with degrees is that they're often not very useful in comparison to good ol' fashioned experience.
.. don't take advice from anyone on Slashdot. That way lies madness!
The founding fathers knew that individual sovereignty was more important than, the precursor to, and progenitor of, state sovereignty("...to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...")
George Washington was a nationalist; in his farewell address he constantly expressed that we should all consider ourselves citizens of "America" even though American citizenship wasn't actually established until the 14th amendment. George Washington was wrong.
He may have been one of the founding fathers, but he wasn't one of the "idea men," one of the intellectual fathers of the constitution like Madison and Jefferson were. These men inherited from the intellectual tradition of Locke. Washington did not. The fact is, there was no such thing as American citizenship until the 14th amendment. The tests for citizenship for serving in congress in the constitution refer to being a citizen of some state.
The way our founding fathers intended it, you were only a citizen of a state, a mini-country that had entered into a special agreement with other mini-countries like it nearby. The declaration of independence declared that
In 1783 King George recognized the sovereignty of the states in the Paris peace treaty as well.
The constitution was an agreement among the states, a bunch of ex-colonial mini-countries, that interstate commerce would be regulated from the national level only. The states did not have power to set up trade barriers against other states with which to enrich themselves:
The states even agreed to a common currency, as the EU has done now.
My Point? The USA was the first experiment in an extreme laissez faire approach to international trade. It was an astounding success Read those last two sentences over a few times until they sinks in. Your assertion that we didn't get to be the leaders of the free world with my kind of attitude is dead wrong. It is my kind of attitude that made us the leaders of the free world. The idea that the state should manage economics for the benefit of the people was taken to an extreme and attempted in the USSR. It failed dramatically. The people are perfectly capable of deciding what's best for themselves.
And the attitude wasn't just limited to cross-state trade, either. In a letter to Elbridge Gerry in 1799, Thomas Jefferson wrote "I am for free commerce with all nations; political connection with none; and little or no diplomatic establishm
I have 15 years experience worldwide in the IT industry with some of the most respected (and disrespected) companies in the world, I think my advice about many issues can be valuable (sometimes it may be rubish, horse for courses as the Brits say), but where else do you get 200 or 300 comments from people experienced in a field of expertise when you ask a question?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
My experience is limited to the US, but you're welcome to it. I spent about 4.5 years working between my undergraduate and graduate work. All my degrees are electrical engineering, but most of my work experience before graduate school was software; post-graduate is more hardware oriented.
1. In graduate engineering curricula, technical work experience will generally be seen as a positive. One graduate studies chair in EE told me directly that my work experience was a big plus. Most good engineering schools have some cross-fertilization between industry and academia.
(This may not be true in other disciplines, even in computer science.)
2. I can't help you much there; my only post-secondary experience is in the US. Ask a specific question and I'll tell you about the US perspective. I understand there are big differences in how you pay for graduate education.
3. I did this and there were some differences. On the plus side, my work habits improved immensely with a few years in the 'real world'. Grades on homework and tests were much more objective than anything I'd been scored on outside of school and my discipline about deadlines and scheduling was much better. The hardest part was that years out of school got me accustomed to a non-student lifestyle--it was a big adjustment, socially and economically, to go back. Major downsizing. If I'd been married and a breadwinner, I don't know that I could have done it.
4. Can't help you, as I did it in the US. I used a combination of savings, outside consulting jobs, and research and teaching assistant appointments. My parents kicked in tuition one quarter. It wasn't easy and it was important to be a good enough student to get the RA/TA jobs.
The best way, if you can pull it off, is to get an employer to subsidize it. (This was my plan A, but that's a long story.)
I'm debt-averse, and did it without borrowing, which I recommend, but a lot of people need to borrow to do it.
Life is all about learning... a great choice.. Many people are to chicken to do that... Lars
Actually, I'm back in school right now. Granted it is only for 2 months as part of my apprenticeship, but it is full time. The most important thing I can offer you is this: Don't stare too much at the young girls. They are all at least 10 years younger than you, and not at all interested.
Is that a real poncho? I mean, is that a Mexican poncho or is that a Sears poncho?
Well, I guess it depends how much money you have in the bank, now doesn't it? As an IT Manager with no formal IT education, I wish I had your problem. Actually, it really pisses me off. I learned the hard way with hands on experience being taught by 30 year veterans. I am grateful to be so lucky. I digress. As job security is constantly threatened from outsourcing, I am becoming more concerned about my own ass so I'm doing something about it and going back to college. This is an ironic propostion for me. I enrolled in some entry level IT courses in college. Wanted to take some Java but had to take the pre-reqs first. All the pre-reqs are Windows based and they are forcing me to learn MS Office and .Net.
I just want to throw up. I'm paying $500 to learn how to "program in crayon". I was writing crayon 10 years ago. After looking at the textbooks, with all the colors and Windows XP like icons, its no wonder why so many college graduates don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. How much record processing did you do in college? They're not teaching COBOL/RPG that runs 85% of the worlds business transactions.
Who's going to run the mainframes?
When's the last time you tried to get data from MS Windows database to any other platform? Pretty? I think not.
As a hiring manager, I can't believe the expectations of the "real business world" that college graduates have. I've interviewed people with masters degrees that couldn't explain hexadecimal to me. They can code objects, explain instantiation and polymorphism but can't do data conversions. WTF?
My advice to this "man-in-limbo" is...
When I hire someone, I evaluate how much hands on experience they have working with business data records and how much old-school procedural language experience they have. Without the foundations in record processing, you end up training someone what they should already know.
Anyone can code an object. What do you REALLY have to offer a business besides how intelligent you are proposed to be on a piece of paper?
Go back to work!
You can chmod and javac till you're blue in the face, but convert that data file and make sure it's accurate.
I thought about the same regarding my math skills at one time. Then, Slashdot ran that feature on free calculus textbooks. I read one of them and have managed to recoup most of my progress there. You've already learned this stuff once. Re-learning it is much easier as long as you don't try to jump stright into higher levels. Start with as basic of a level as you need. You'll ramp up faster than you expect. It's like riding a bike.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
I don't know what your professors were like, but I had several who had an amazing talent for winding up talking about things that had nothing to do with the subject on hand. On one hand, the tangents could be very useful when they pointed out esoteric shortcuts or highlighted practical experience. On the other hand, when the professor already knows what things he's going to put on the test, I prefer that he cover that material rather than ramble on about his Air Force days with their less-than-one safety factors or the time when he impressed a girl by how rapidly he solved an ODE. (Both true stories, sadly enough) Asking if things were on the test was a good way to shock them out of it.
As for the extensions, I also don't entirely agree. College is a time for exploring limits and it's not uncommon for a student to find he can't handle his 17 credit hours of classes, 20 hours of work per week, and other obligations, especially in those times when everyone schedules things on the same day. Repeat or career offenders whould not be given slack. Ditto for students who can't display an excuse and/or preliminary work. But if a student comes in the day before a project is due, explains their situation, and shows what work they have done, I don't see extending the deadline for a day or so to be so bad, maybe under slightly reduced credit for the work, and definitely ofering extending the deadline for the rest of the class under the same terms too. In "The Real World," deadlines slip too. That said, no matter how good the excuse, if a student has to rely on deadline extensions more than once, he needs to work on his time-management skills. Maybe he's better off taking 5 years to graduate rather than 4, or to take a slightly lower-paying job which allows for better hours and/or opportunity to work on his homework during slack periods (I did food services for my first semester and computer labs for the next 6. Definitely an improvement. Heck, it even paid better...).
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It varies from college to college and sometimes upon the course. While a history class will probably be valid 10 years later (We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia), the same can't be said for programming courses.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.