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Windows Longhorn Beta for June Release
An Anonymous Reader writes "According to CNET, the Windows Longhorn Beta 1 is supposedly set for release this June. The Register has commentary on the delays the new OS has faced." From the article: "Longhorn was originally supposed to ship in 2004. In May, this year release was pushed back to 2005. This week Longhorn's availability has been delayed even further, with Microsoft execs declining to say when exactly the operating system might ship, eWeek reports."
So what makes this June Release by one Microsoft executive more believable than other announcements?
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
"We are at war with Eastasia. We have always been at war with Eastasia."
"Longhorn will be released next year. It has always been planned to be released next year."
Much like the war in Orwell's 1984, Windows will never be complete. It's been a long time since the last major overhaul. Maybe they need to just make Windows a perpetual upgrade. Each release will have a major component update.
Windows XP: Unified Home/Pro editions
Longhorn: Avalon & Indigo
Blackcomb: WinFS
Now that Windows is `for the most part` on a standardized framework (.NET), they should be able to just release updates based on this framework, whether it be for current major release or retroactively. If you need some component installed, just make sure it's prereq's are there. Oh wait - this sounds a lot like Linux.
Yes? No? Who the hell cares?
... to beat "Tiger" to the punch.
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
I like the 'different ways of distributing throughout large corps' thing... in the way that it's basically code for "we're going to try another convoluted way of stopping corporate editions from being pirated. COUGH"
What's Longhorn? Bill Gates name for his...?
Methinks Microsoft is out to keep the next version of OS X, which is believed to be shipping at around the same time, from getting too much press.
If someone makes a Duke Nukem joke, I'm going to shoot myself.
As a result of the cutting I shall dub this OS 'Shorthorn: smaller and less impressive than it ought to be.'
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
we all love screenshots
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
That Longhorn will ship with the full retail version of Duke Nukem Forever.
Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!
Here's proof they intended a 2004 release. Well, maybe it's fake. I found it in 2002.
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
They are trying their best to get that new desktop environment integrated. You know, the Duke Nuk'em Forever Desk'top. It blows viruses away, melts system freezes, and liberates both Gen Failure and Gen P. Fault from the communist zombie insurgent terrorists.
Is there any wonder that it is taking longer than expected?
I have to stop wasting so much time reading Slashdot. It's interfering with my crystal meth addiction.
...with a beta
Well, that's Microsoft for you
The point is, these pushbacks have given open source the chance to make major innovation, and there isn't long left to take this major opportunity.
My gut feeling is that Longhorn will knock the socks off whatever is out there at the time, unless developers really plan ahead, and come up with innovative features etc.
Some would say the pendulum is swinging towards Open Source on the desktop at the moment, but I worry that Longhorn could stop that in its tracks.
You cant make anything foolproof, they'll only invent better fools.
XP seems fine to me. All my utilities, programs, and games are in working order and I have never had a problem with security. Why exactly should I udgrade? The only reason I stay on Windows is for the games, and unless Micosoft has some magic optimizations it pulls out of its ass, I dont see a new operation system on here anytime soon.
Does the phrase "longhorn" have anything to do with the University of Texas at Austin (who's mascot is the Longhorn), or is it just some weird coincidence? If UT and M$ are in cohoots, I'm going to have to transfer schools... :p
Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
Hey, Microsoft is ripping off APT!
Having 100+ Gigs is fairly common. Will Longhorn take 20G to install??? Every 'new' windows version has made my 'current' computer seem slow. I expect the same again....
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. Dwight D. Eisenhower
Nuff sed.
;)
...to that spyware and virus free (so far), shipping operating system that you can buy today! Look over here, at this great stuff we'll be selling Real Soon Now!"
Hopefully Tiger will appear sooner than currently expected, to prevent this.
... to see Longhorn die the death it inevitably will. A DRM OS on which old apps won't run and it requires high spec hardware. Seems like a non-starter in the face of cost-saving open source alternatives. Be assured it won't offer much extra security if it comes outta Redmond. Bring on Longhorn. Time to slay The Beast once and for all.
When the world wakes up and sees that Microsoft is asking them to upgrade yet-again they will either 1) jump at the chance or 2) ask what was wrong with XP. I think we need to be there to tell them.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Does Microsoft actually care about Mac OS X at all, whether as a competitive threat or even a comparative yardstick?
At a recent university talk, Gates claimed that the only OSes that would be around in 10 years would be Windows and Linux. Now that could simply be a snub to Jobs, or it could indicate that he doesn't even consider Mac to be on the radar anymore. With less than 2% marketshare, Mac OS X is pretty much inconsequential in both the predominantly Windows consumer market, or Windows/Linux enterprise market.
The ironic thing is, that if Mac OS X *were* to be around in 10 years, Microsoft would likely to be making far more money off it than if it disappeared. Why? The high gross margins (80+%) from Office mean that Microsoft often makes more money from a Mac bought with Office than Apple does (the gross margin on a Mac is 20+%).
With only Linux as an alternative OS, Microsoft would likely make nothing, unless Microsoft plans to start selling software for Linux...
Personally I think Microsoft does actually pay attention to Apple and uses them as a sort of free R&D lab. However, publicly, Gates seems to deny they're relevant now, and not at all in the future.
Interesting...
Did anyone notice that the Register story is dated September 2003? Explains how it is talking about "May this year"
I am as poor as a church mouse whose wife has run off with another mouse, taking all the cheese with her. I am looking forward to Longhorn because then lots of people will upgrade their kit and i get to inherit some newer stuff.
My most recent hand-me-downs were from guys updating graphics cards for doom3 and HL2.
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
A June beta release from Microsoft may or may not beat Apple's June final release, but Tiger's punch was the beta DVDs that went to all Worldwide Developers' Conference attendees LAST summer.
- Allen Pike
Altering time, one time at a time.
What do you think will be officially released first:
Longhorn or Sarge?
Of course, Sarge as it is is already relatively stable and bug free (I had an uptime of 35 days before rebooting to use a new kernel); while I bet that Longhorn will have lots of problems for at least the first six months.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
How come when a game company like Blizzard says "it will be released when it's ready" everyone applauds their restraint, yet when Windows release dates are up in the air everyone slams Microsoft?
Oh, maybe it's because Windows still won't be ready when it's shipped...
Sometimes my arms bend back.
Hey, the Red Sox won the World Series. Doom3 and Halo2 were released. Heck, even the Hurd kernel passed a milestone. But I would call down to Hell first and ask if they've had a blizzard recently.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Ironic how both are named after big fat bovines.
Longhorn, it's what's for dinner.
Is this exactly not what happened in the episode of the Simpsons episode where Lisa creates a doll called "Lisa Lionheart" only to be knocked out at the last minute with the "New" Malabu Stacy, which was the old Malabu Stacy, but with a hat.
I guess Microsoft's sales of Malabu Stacys (Windows) is slowing. I guess it is time for them to release a new version "NOW WITH A HAT"
"(Burns) Hello Smithers, you're quite good at turning me on" - Smithers' computer
"(Gates) Hello Steve, you're quite good at turning *Windows NT GPF*" - Steve Balmer's computer
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
Did anyone look at the date of the article? Even in the /. snippet it shows that 2005 is not written in present tense.
Microsoft delays Longhorn. Again
By John Leyden
Published Tuesday 2nd September 2003 10:55 GMT
This is turing out to be on hell of a year
That does not compute!
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Microsoft is far from being the only OS company who has had ever slipped a schedule, or reduced their deliverables. Or have their marketing types try to weasel their way out of it.
Besides, all that market pressure to release stuff early is what causes developers to lose sleep and relationships. Personally, I don't need a new version of Windows anytime soon. I'd rather wait for a fully baked version before giving my feedback.
Instead of going through all this fuss and bother, why don't we all give Microsoft whatever rope they feel they need to let them eventually hang themselves properly?
Not so micro. Or soft. He might be the new "giver".
* shudder *
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
I'm sure Microsoft isn't going to say a word about Tiger, but my guess is they're no longer considering Apple the 98-lb. weakling as they once did.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?
No smoking sigs indoors.
This makes me wonder regarding the status for System.Windows.Forms in Longhorn. Is System.Windows.Forms still the recommended GUI-framework in Longhorn? Is the release of its replacement post-poned?
Strange that no one seem to mention the benefits of the new Linux kernel development model, when the Windows vs Linux debade is brpought up.
The 3 years of development has now disappered (for now) meaning that on average Linux has gained something like 1.5-2.0 years on its competitors.
This in addition to being on a much faster improvement trajectory than the Windows / *nix.
Apple is somewhere in between as they release somewhat often pretty much when they have enough stuff to merit a "sale" / release.
Help fight continental drift.
The article linked to, and quoted, was published in September of 2003. There is no new delay to speak of.
If Windows is still in C:\WINDOWS\system32, my programs still in C:\Program Files, or my documents still in C:\Documents and Settings\Devin\My Documents I wont be upgrading. What a hamper on user interface... Give me /System, /Apps, and /Home PLEASE!
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple bumped up the Tiger release by a few weeks to the beginning of June to stick it to the "developer beta 1" of Longhorn.
I bet this will be the most open and secure operating system ever.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
Why release an OS, when releasing the Beta gets your stock to go up, and people to stop talking about all the bugs in your current release? Releasing the finished version will just create all kinds of market-damaging disappointment, instead of all that nifty, marketable hope.
--
make install -not war
I wonder if it will have antivirus and anti-spyware bundled in the default install. They bought Giant not so long ago, and now they're getting Sybari. http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/02/08/yourmoney/m sft.html
If they're having trouble finding a "gee whiz" selling point to entice buyers to the new system, this might be it. It would also be a good answer to the pirates - a solid reason why your OS would phone home and reactivate itself every few hours.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
No, it's redundant.
Half Life 2 is due out this... Oh. Wait...
I mod down pyramid schemes in sigs.
That article is from September 2003, yet the way it's quoted in the summary makes it sound like Longhorn has been delayed again this week, which is not the case.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I think their "story" is that System.Windows.Forms has good support, maybe a bit better than plain GDI (assuming a bit more about how the stuff in SWF actually accesses things), but Avalon is still fully on its way. It's bad while Mono is making progress, but I would say that a serious rethinking of the drawing model on Windows is needed to get on par with MacOS X in these aspects. They might accomplish that, if it's done properly.
If you guys could see the current state of the Longhorn Alpha...
It's not near ready for Beta yet...
Microsoft has many times in the past cut very important functionality all in the name of making release dates. This time they appear fairly serious about overhauling their development model and aren't allowing time to be a major factor.
Right, that's why they've dropped WinFS from the feature list. Again. What is this, the third Windows version that was supposed to have it?
~Philly
So what's the point?
Why should anybody upgrade?
The thing I thought was most revolutionary about longhorn was the database type file system. I think more and more people are seeing the advantages of tags over folders. You'd think someone could build a database style, tagged filesystem in some sort of linux deal. How hard would it be?
Just one of the articles is from 2003, and that's the one from the Register detailing the past delays. The first article linked to in the summary was posted to CNet on the 7th (yesterday), and the recent CNet post is what everyone on here is talking about.
I have seen the alpha (it's sat on the shelf opposit me), and I agree with you.
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Anyway, the point of Longhorn is, with Indigo and Avalon, to make it easier to develop cool new stuff. Then more cool new stuff gets written for Windows, and so more people buy Windows.
Want to pre-empt Longhorn? Make some slick open-source developer tools for XML-based user interfaces (can't remember the X-acronym at the moment - XUL or XAML or some such) and web services. Win over the developers. Let them develop the cool new stuff on Linux.
The users will follow if the new stuff is cool enough. At least, that's been Microsoft's game plan for a long time now, and it's worked pretty well for them...
I would bet a fair amount of money that Microsoft will push the end-of-life for W2K back. There are two many large companies that use it, and want to continue to use it.
Just look at Windows 98se. It's end-of-life (or extended support) was extended at least once and I believe several times.
There are way too many companies out there that will look at alternatives to XP.
eric
There is no technology in Longhorn that will convince people to start developing windows-only applications.
.NET who are shooting themselves given the rise of Apple, Linux, and other non-Microsoft platforms (cell phones, etc.).
Does there need to be? Seems like the majority of commercial software vendors already only develop for windows. Of course it's not going to convince the current exceptions (Adobe, Oracle, IBM) but then nothing short of a gun to the heads of the CEO's of those companies COULD convince them.
As it is, I look at all of the people who have written applications to
Why? Excepting Linux and OSX there pretty much are no other operating systems that have any signifigant user base. Linux users are not exactly known for rushing out to pay for software. And I don't think there are enough people using apple computers to keep ISVs up at night wishing they had went cross platform, either.
Some combination of Java and/or the Web is the way to go for the forseeable future.
I can certainly see benifit in going towards the web, just because of the ease of rolling out changes across an enterprise (update the server, everyone is updated). The cross platform there is just a (nice) side effect, though.
Just to let you know, though, as soon as OSX or Linux have the market share to make it profitable to develop for them is the day I start developing software for them.
Longtooth
"I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
Microsoft should pull a "Copeland", kill Longhorn, "acquire" a competitive OS company, and come out with Superior OS (secretly the formerly competing OS) with a Windows compatibility layer.
They'll have to try that with BeOS or OS/2, 'cuz Linux and Wine are already there.
Start Running Better Polls
As chance would have it I was actually at Microsoft's UK campus today and one interesting piece of information that was mentioned was Microsoft's long-term OS strategy which is to release a new full OS refresh every 4 years with a "feature upgrade" every 2 years between releases.
s tanding/pillars/default.aspx
; %5Bln%5D;LifeWin
This means that Windows Server 2003 is due a "feature upgrade" this year (XP had one last year in the form of SP2), with the XP replacement due in 2006 and Longhorn server in 2007. WinFS is likely to be included in a "feature upgrade" to Longhorn sometime in 2009.
Both Avalon and Indigo are likely to be available for current Windows platforms (2k3 and XP) although WinFS is, as widely publicised already, not going to be available even for the release of Longhorn.http://msdn.microsoft.com/Longhorn/under
Therefore, the chances of WinFS being available for 2000, XP or Windows Server 2003 is unlikely particularly in light of the fact XP mainstream support is due to end next December (2006) and Windows 2000 support actually officially ends in June this year! (see http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh
The main reason for the WinFS delays, they stated was that they made the decision that its features would also benefit several other key products such as SQLServer and Exchange and the integration with these products/developer teams was worth the delay.
I suspect that the Longhorn team are victims of the old "moving target specification" problem that we've all dealt with. In other words, they get 80% of the way done and someone says, "Hey! Add this feature I just saw in Linux" or "add this media ability," or "fix this batch of security holes," or "how about making the code compile for both 32 and 64 bit systems," etc etc etc. Once they get 80% done again, the target moves again and they get stuck in a hell that engineers understand and fear. I'm interested to see if there's any features, other than security, that I'm really going to care about. What can Longhorn do that Windows XP SP2 can't do? Or more aptly, since I switched to linux a couple of months back, what can Longhorn do (besides play games) that Linux can't? Raydude
What kind of psycho runs 12 applications and plays Quake 3 at the same time? reminds me of the marketing-droid who first tried to sell me on XP: "I had 100 instances of media player running at the same time, no problem" Swell. I seldom listen to 100 songs or watch 100 videos at the same time. Maybe I'm just a retard. I dunno.
If you want your life to be different, live it differently.
Will it run Duke Nukem Forever?
Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses. If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher.
not to say they won't do it, but symantec and mcaffee are not netscape...
Once Longhorn comes out, Microsoft will again be so far ahead, it won't be easy, or even possible, for enthusiasts to catch up.
.NET code on your machine.
Hi Mr. Troll...have some food:
1. The entire OS will be accessible through a set of managed APIs. This makes coding 10 times easier and faster, and raises productivity to unprecedented levels. This also makes buffer overflows and some other security issues a thing of the past.
Good idea...let's call them shared libraries. They can handle all the functions that a modern program will need. We'll put them in a central location, like a "lib" folder, and then release their header files in a "devel" (short for developer) package. This means that any program writer will be able to see exactly what functions he needs to use. We'll also put all our trust in the security of one developer, and forget security as our responsibility.
2. New, resolution independent, vector based, GPU-enabled UI engine.... What's KDE/Gnome users gonna do? That's right, try to discern tiny non-scalable icons on these displays.
That's right...those damn communists will have to develop SVG Icons to compete.
3. Completely new UI, including some significant paradigm changes.
Because we all know that a new UI is far more important than stability, performance, security, ease of use, scalability, compatibility, ease of development, and speed of patch releases...right? Then again, maybe changing to a 3d environment will make it easier for new users, after all, computers haven't been using 2d interfaces for the last 20-some years, right?
Your webapps will actually run sandboxed
Just like, oh, I don't know...Java? Wait... Kind of like applets, but the entire webapp will be built out of them.... oh...I get it, just like a whole Java application. Got it. Silly me, I thought Java was only for applets...
Just think about the possibilities there.Wait! I've heard this before... the possibility is ActiveX...seamless integration of pr0n toolbars^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H client and server, huh?
web service protocol that's supported by the majority of computers in the world (when most people upgrade).
Standard...oh yeah, like TCP/IP, SSL, SSH, Telnet, UDP, and all those other standards...(too many to list)
The most important thing is, all of this will be available to Windows users out of the box, without any tweaking/recompiling/downloading dependencies
Yeah...clicking the icon for Synaptic was getting to be a pain in the ass. I also got pretty tired of having several gigs worth of...well, all the programs I need...included on the installation disks.
Developers will be able to rely on this stuff when building next-gen apps and be reasonably sure that if a user runs Longhorn, the app will run there.
Yeah, let's see how many DLL's we can cram into the system32 folder, eh? Until DLL's are gone (ahem...notafuckingchanceinhell...ahem), there will still be DLL hell.
It's time to stop copying Windows XP, folks.
Are you out of your fucking mind? MS copied Fisher-Price, not vice versa...
It's time to start copying Longhorn.
You know, you're right...let's copy a product that has to have a final specifications sheet, or even a concrete release date. Even better, let's copy our own innovations.
Now that the troll's full, I may as well poke it a bit:
That was by far one of the most uneducated, poorly cocnceived fanboy responses that I have ever read. Even people like Dvorak and Thurrot take more time to look at the status quo before proclaiming innovation.
Cheers,
-maztuh
The real litigious bastards...
A Preview of Longhorn is available here.
A rather thorough documentation of the future featureset is available
here.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
1. The entire OS will be accessible through a set of managed APIs. This makes coding 10 times easier and faster, and raises productivity to unprecedented levels. This also makes buffer overflows and some other security issues a thing of the past.
.NET code on your machine. Kind of like applets, but the entire webapp will be built out of them. Just think about the possibilities there.
"Managed APIs". I can see where this is going already.
2. New, resolution independent, vector based, GPU-enabled UI engine. Two years from Longhorn release people will be buying 200+ DPI displays because things look a lot better on them. What's KDE/Gnome users gonna do? That's right, try to discern tiny non-scalable icons on these displays.
Gnome/KDE already support SVG. So gnome/kde have scalable fonts/icons.. right now, today. Not only that but work is already being done in this respect http://cairographics.org/introduction.
3. Completely new UI, including some significant paradigm changes.
PARA DIG EM! Yeah.. when I wanna be wowed by UI i'll use Enlightenement or OSX. Suprisingly nothing from Microsoft has ever impressed me in that department. I mean, the screenshots I've seen of gnome/kde/enlightenment/osx/xfce. Microsoft needs to hire new UI designers.. I mean, seriously.
4. Seamless integration of client and server side (that's what XAML is all about, IMHO). Your webapps will actually run sandboxed
Mozilla and XML. Thats what Mozilla is all about. Your webapps will actually run regular ole XML on your machine. Kind of like google mail, but the entire webapp will be built out of them. I'm living in the present by the way.. Just incase you were wondering.
5. Reliable Web Services - Indigo, web services that don't suck. More importantly, web service protocol that's supported by the majority of computers in the world (when most people upgrade). And you can bet your ass they will upgrade, just like a couple of years after W95 was released almost everyone ran W95.
Reliable Web Services? Web service protocol? So whats that called? HTMP? is that going to be ontop of HTTP? Making it more reliable and supported worldwide (after everyone switches from HTTP). Bet my ass i'll upgrade for a protocol, just like when I upgraded for ftp!
It's time to stop copying Windows XP, folks. It's time to start copying Longhorn. Gnome devs have already realised that.
What you say?! Stop copying XP and start copying Longhorn?! Why my lad, you can't copy what doesn't exist.
Seriously though, I hate Microsoft and if they had anything genuinely original coming out in Longhorn i'd probably be interested. Especially if it's good technology. To date, i'm hearing about stuff people have either already implemented or wrote about. Things that have been discussed by numerous people over the years. The innovation isn't happening at Microsoft, it's happening elsewhere. It's not even an attractive company to work for nowadays and i'd be hard pressed to say they've ever invented anything original.
I mean, if I wanted to do original shit i'd have to go to work for anyone other than Microsoft.
Going about things backwards? Imagine with me, if you will, a bootable CD (Damn Small or Knoppix) that also contains the single-player version of a really cool MMORPG - you don't *have* to have Linux installed, but you *do* need to boot from that disk for a play session... After having played it, *then* download the files needed for the online version for some ridiculously small subscription/donation... Watch the OS osmose its way into yet another user's life...
Take the 90-Day Challenge! http://rwmurker.bodybyvi.com/
It's time to stop copying Windows XP, folks. It's time to start copying Longhorn. Gnome devs have already realised that.
should be modified to It's time to stop copying Windows XP, folks. It's time to start copying OS X. Unfortunately, nobody from KDE or Gnome seems to realize this.
For one thing, somebody has to figure out a way to start doing graphics on the GPU with vanilla X11 pretty soon -- Tiger is going to make everything else look like mud this year already, and when Windows figures out that trick in 2006 or 2007 or whenever, BSD and Linux will just about be the only ugly kids left on the block. This might not matter for servers etc, but on the desktop, looks count.
1. The entire OS will be accessible through a set of managed APIs. This makes coding 10 times easier and faster, and raises productivity to unprecedented levels. This also makes buffer overflows and some other security issues a thing of the past.
.Net is great, but not that great.
.NET code on your machine. Kind of like applets, but the entire webapp will be built out of them. Just think about the possibilities there.
I call bullshit. 10 times easier to develop/faster - I think not. And managed APIs whilst they may reduce the incidents of buffer overflows will not automagically solve your security problems. The fact is
2. New, resolution independent, vector based, GPU-enabled UI engine. Two years from Longhorn release people will be buying 200+ DPI displays because things look a lot better on them. What's KDE/Gnome users gonna do? That's right, try to discern tiny non-scalable icons on these displays.
And who are going to be buying these new 200+ DPI machines ? I surely doubt the ordinary user is going to find a need to view their word documents in super high quality. So do explain what is going to be the driver of these displays ?
3. Completely new UI, including some significant paradigm changes.
Completely new ? And what lose the ability of their installed base to jump right in and use the system. What about the significant investments in training done by companies ? The fact is Longhorn will be 95% identical to Windows XP simply because it has to be. If it isn't and businesses have to invest serious money in retraining staff, then why not retrain them in how to use Linux/OpenOffice ?
4. Seamless integration of client and server side (that's what XAML is all about, IMHO). Your webapps will actually run sandboxed
Whilst your thinking about the possibilities, some of us are actually implementing it. Java/Flash are already heavily used and Google is only just showing that JS/DHTML can be used to do amazing stuff. And they all work cross-platform.
The fact is developers can't target XAML so long as they have they have a significant number of end users that are running Windows 95/98/Linux/Mac/Firefox etc etc.
5. Reliable Web Services - Indigo, web services that don't suck. More importantly, web service protocol that's supported by the majority of computers in the world (when most people upgrade). And you can bet your ass they will upgrade, just like a couple of years after W95 was released almost everyone ran W95.
Web Services like CORBA is a developer's technology. Most end users won't know what web services is and why it is useful. You've been drinking the Microsoft kool-aid if you think end users are going to upgrade because of it. And Web Services works just as well on other platforms as well you know. Some even require little to no programming.
The most important thing is, all of this will be available to Windows users out of the box, without any tweaking/recompiling/downloading dependencies. That's where the real strength of this all is. Developers will be able to rely on this stuff when building next-gen apps and be reasonably sure that if a user runs Longhorn, the app will run there.
Bzzt. Except that when Longhorn comes out your going to have a even more fragmented Windows market (95/98/XP/Longhorn). Which means that as a developer you want to use the technology that will target the most number of platforms i.e. Win32. This is a huge problem for Microsoft and is why more Longhorn technologes are being backported to XP.
It's time to stop copying Windows XP, folks. It's time to start copying Longhorn. Gnome devs have already realised that.
WRONG. It is time for Linux to start making itself more and more interoperable with Windows XP. To the point where businesses will sidegrad
Funtage Factor: Purple
I would certainly think so, because OS X shows people what can be done with computers -- it shows them that viruses, trojans, and other malware aren't acts of God, but a preventable result of bad technology; that computers don't have to crash; that drag'n drop can do so much more; that Plug and Play can be more than an empty marketing slogan; and finally that computers can actually look cool. In short, Apple makes Windows machines look bad by comparison, and with the iPod and Mac mini actually penetrating the mainstream, this can't be good for Microsoft.
Futhermore, I think your comment
With less than 2% marketshare, Mac OS X is pretty much inconsequential in both the predominantly Windows consumer market, or Windows/Linux enterprise market.
shows a widespread but flawed view of the computer world: Market share is all that matters. In fact, look at Porsche: Pissy market share, but great cars and -- more important -- great financial performance of the company. Apple's stock is doing just fine, thank you, while Microsoft's is starting to underperform to the point where they are now paying dividend. Comparing Microsoft to Apple makes just as little sense as comparing GM to Porsche and then saying that Porsche is hopeless because they don't have a large percentage of the mass-market.
In fact, at least up to the Mac mini, that was exactly the point.
And which incarnation of Longhorn will this be? I read last year they plan on two versions. Considering people have been waiting on XP 64bit for the Opteron for over two years how can anybody take anything Sloth says seriously? Cnet claims now that they will be releasing a 'near final' RC 2 of XP 64Pro at the end of June. Hmmm.. timing a coincidence? story
You don't think that picture is anything but a joke do you? Or more specifically, the implication of that dotted line. I wear pants like that all the time, and while I am of course very well endowed (;]), what you're seeing in that picture is merely a normal fold in the pants.
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
Also note that if web services/SOA is ever fully realized, then your apps are a combination of web services with a thin-client front-end tying them together, and then what languages/platforms the individual services are implemented in becomes much less relevant.
Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
there's nothing going on with XP except for service packs/bugfixes
Uhhh, isn't that all that ever goes on with any development after its release?
On the rest, I completely agree, expect that I disagree on some parts.
The vector based display is GREAT. This has been happening in games for a long time, I was wondering how long it would take to evolve onto the desktop environment.
As of currently, though, everything else has not been implemeted in any of the alpha releases, so I can't comment on whether or not those work or suck. Esentially, the Alpha Longhorn release is XP with a different color scheme, and slightly different log-in screen. Also, the "security center" has returned to it's W2K form, where there are several options to select from, rather than simply giving the task manager.
As for the W95 part, that was true for a small amount of time. Shortly after, when W98 became good, W98 SE became a very popular OS. Microsoft has since done a lot to upgrade W2K, which is what I currently use. Of course, it helps that most mal-ware is targeted at XP, and not W2K.
Hmmm. Longhorn being delayed for a months again? For us gamers, it sounds a lot like the delays for HL2, and dare I bring TFC2 into question? First this, then that, 6 months here, a little 1 month there, and boom! You're 2 years off date. Grrr. Why don't people just give late estimations and make people happier by releasing their products ahead of scheduled time, or god forbid they use that extra time to work out the bugs in the software more instead of releasing slews of updates to their software at the time of release?
I'd have to agree with the parent completely. Linux has those features planned, but they're only sort of there and not going anywhere fast. Longhorn should make things a lot easier, just as .Net has. I still see Linux as going far in the server world, but the desktop is likely to be Longhorn.
This is an attempt to make Longhorn appear more imminent than it actually is.
I'm convinced Longhorn will be released when now() + 2 years == now()
However, this doesn't mean we can sit on our laurels and wait for OSS to find it's own way onto the desktop.
I think you pissed the fact that the poster was making a joke...
I won't debate what is a "most important book". What criteria? etc.
Regardless, 1984 is one of the most influental books of the last century.
Too many people point to 1984 as an illustration of the insidiousness of totalitarianism, when what they completely miss is the fact that 1984 is a book about the insidious of totalitarianism. It takes the insidiousness of totalitarianism as a given. The book doesn't contain a discussion about whether the slope is slippery or not; it just assumes that the slope is slippery and tells a story based on that premise.
I believe you're missing the point of narrative. Narrative is not a discourse on a topic with cites. It builds upon common culture to illustrate a given belivable situation, by way of story evolution.
That you call it a failing that Blair (Orwell) failed to elucidate paths to totalitarianism, with references, op cit. is to ignore not only the prima face evident truth of what he was talking about, but also the context in which he was saying it, and the fact that a narrative can speak on several levels. I don't deny that a lot of people misuse the text, but you're wrong to hold it to a different standard than the one for which it was intended.
A novel is not a historical document, except, sometimes, after the fact.
Somebody who reads 1984 and thinks that he then has something insightful to say about language or society is like somebody who reads Beat to Quarters and thinks that he then can sail a tall ship around Cape Horn.
To put this in a contextually useful analogy, this statement reads like someone who read "Linux for Dummies" and then wrote an oped about the stupidity of the Open Source movement, 'cause it doesn't take into account the cost curves of extant proprietary development, analyse job losses in SV due to cyclic developments, or forcast potential problems in legal doctrine if OS takes off..
--AC, only because of the machine I'm on; I'm 'abulafia' hereabouts.
This makes me wonder regarding the status for System.Windows.Forms in Longhorn. Is System.Windows.Forms still the recommended GUI-framework in Longhorn? Is the release of its replacement post-poned? System.Windows.Forms and GDI+ (System.Drawing) are still fully supported in Longhorn, and right now are the recommended way to begin transitioning your applications towards Longhorn. However, Longhorn has an entirely knew API known as WinFX, which is a superset of the .NET Framework.
The new GUI is a vector-based 2D and 3D compositing system known as Avalon. Avalon is built on top of DirectX. Avalon, DirectX, and GDI+ are known collectively as the Windows Graphics Foundation or WGF.
Avalon has a much larger scope over System.Windows.Forms, and if you would like take a glimpse at all of the new stuff (the new namespaces added under System.Windows), then check out the WinFX API Reference. WinFX is a quite a big step up from traditional Win32 programming.
Mono has stated on their roadmap that it is too early to tell if they will support the technologies in Longhorn, but chances are, they eventually will.
Avalon seems to be more hardware and platform agnostic than System.Windows.Forms. Things like HWNDs are now hidden behind a polymorphic class interface, and that's just the beginning. You really need to check it out to understand how it works. Anyway, stuff like that should make it easier to port to things like Mac OS X, Linux, *BSD, and so on.
I think I speak for my community (having been a part of it, both as a Linux user and a Linux developer for over a decade, and now president of my LUG), when I say that "Linux users" aren't choosing NOT to pay for software because they don't WANT to, they're not paying for software because they don't HAVE to.
Just because it is commercial, doesn't mean it is better than the free or non-commercial software out there. Look at some of the VERY successful projects that are given away freely: Apache, PHP, Gaim, Samba, Subversion, Mozilla/Firefox, Plucker and hundreds of other projects.
Nothing in the commercial space can compare to these, and why would users want to spend money to get something of lesser quality or value. The additional benefit they get, at no cost, is the ability to use the source however they choose, including the ability to sell it, or create their own projects based upon it.
NO commercial software that I'm aware of, has that level of freedom and flexibility. Can you think of any?
For microsoft this time, and for the next OS, and for all the previous ones, they should wait until they have a functional, working piece of software. Wait for a 2010 release. The community as a whole will be better off! And who knows, by then Linux may go mainstream!
_
Free 27" Sony WEGA TV
4. Seamless integration of client and server side (that's what XAML is all about, IMHO). Your webapps will actually run sandboxed .NET code on your machine. Kind of like applets, but the entire webapp will be built out of them. Just think about the possibilities there.
You have heard of XUL haven't you. It's been on the street of years. XAML is XUL minus the Cascading Style Sheets (CSS). Why MS decided not to go with CSS is interesting if not revealing.
I am developing a cross platform client/server data acquisition controller app right now in XUL and have been quite surprised at its maturity. I like how content, presentation and code are partitioned into separate components - this is well thought out.
With the addition of the xmlhttprequest() capability it is a piece of cake to use apache/cgi and the language of your choice on your server end and xul, javascript and mozilla as your rich client.
Mozilla's XUL approach is vindicated by microsoft's XAML intentions. However the lack of CSS support in XAML is, I belive, a mistake.
Sorry for the bad formatting. /. stripped my newlines!
I wear pants like that all the time
I HOPE that you are well endowed, if that is your usual choice of fashion.
The other thing they need to do is stop integrating software into the OS. I can't stress this enough. I don't want to have to worry about my entire OS being vulnerable because IE has been integrated into every possible aspect of my GUI. Keep it simple, keep it segmented in modules.
The problem is not that IE is integrated into Windows, the problem is that IE is a piece of shit. KDE is an example of a highly integrated desktop done right.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
That's a really good point. In fact, I just saw this application, which recently came out, named FileScope (www.filescope.com); and I noticed it mentioned that's completely in C# and it will run under Linux with Mono, using SWF. Other developers will do something like this as well... the Mono people should try to implement Avalon stuff as well.
Since when did software not being ready stop them from shipping?
your an ass hole u know that.
I think I speak for my community (having been a part of it, both as a Linux user and a Linux developer for over a decade, and now president of my LUG), when I say that "Linux users" aren't choosing NOT to pay for software because they don't WANT to, they're not paying for software because they don't HAVE to.
So what you're saying is that FOSS is always better than the commercial alternative? Ok. In your case that may be true. Non-developers, for whom the privilage of having the source code means nothing, have a different opinion. If they did not have I'd most certainly be typing this out using Linux and FireFox.
For YOU, as a developer, there may be nothing that beats FOSS. Any peice of software, no matter how crummy it is compared to a commercial alternative, is better because you can simply add the features you want and fix the problems you encounter.
But I don't sell to people like you.
With all of that said, there might come a day when Linux IS ready and all of the applications ARE there. And if, on that day, there is a paying market for development I'll hang up my nifty MS IDE, learn vi and how to build a proper makefile and move on. If there is no market I'll just find something else to do to put food on the table. *shrug*
Paul Thurrott? Is that you?
you just chose the wrong format.
always preview.
jaz
Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans. No-one sees motorcycles
Database-driven filesystems are sorta like nuclear fusion.
Not really. Several companies, including IBM, have been shipping database-driven file systems for decades in successful commercial products (!).
They are like nuclear fusion in that people think they are a panacea, while they really are no more than a special-purpose solution for a niche market, a solution that creates at least as many problems as it solves.
Personally I think Microsoft does actually pay attention to Apple and uses them as a sort of free R&D lab.
Apple used to spend lots of money on R&D and Microsoft nothing. That was when Microsoft was taking Apple's ideas.
These days, Apple doesn't even have a research lab anymore, while Microsoft has the largest CS research lab and has one of the most impressive groups of researchers around anywhere.
Here are some of the announcements that MS might make about Windows Longhorne:
Before it releases:
1. It is the most secured Windows ever.
2. We are trying to eliminate the small bugs so that it provides you trouble free computing.
After it releases:
1. Bug discovered was a flaw in Windows core code, needs major security fixes.
When nothing works:
1. The problems caused was not entirely Microsoft's fault. The viruses and trojans came from third party softwares.
Welcome to Microsoft Windows!
You do know that the IQ-scale is normalized, right?
Once Longhorn comes out, Microsoft will again be so far ahead, it won't be easy, or even possible, for enthusiasts to catch up. Right now they're essentially standing still. They've put all their efforts into LH, there's nothing going on with XP except for service packs/bugfixes. Now is the perfect time to release a really polished Linux desktop that would be simple to setup and use.
... You and LongHorn are pretty late I must say.
.NET code on your machine. Kind of like applets, but the entire webapp will be built out of them. Just think about the possibilities there.
...
I hope MS will be far ahead of WinXP with LH, because the polished Linux desktops were released in 2001 (the time I switched, as WinXP had become unusable when compared to a Gnome or KDE desktop), and are gradually improving ever since.
When Longhorn comes out, Microsoft, and folks who develop for Windows, will surge ahead REALLY fast.
Here's why:
1. The entire OS will be accessible through a set of managed APIs. This makes coding 10 times easier and faster, and raises productivity to unprecedented levels. This also makes buffer overflows and some other security issues a thing of the past.
No clue wishful thinking. I'm not impressed. The Windows architecture is flawed already. No amount of code can fix it. Redesigning Windows (for multiuser and for the internet) would be far better.
2. New, resolution independent, vector based, GPU-enabled UI engine. Two years from Longhorn release people will be buying 200+ DPI displays because things look a lot better on them. What's KDE/Gnome users gonna do? That's right, try to discern tiny non-scalable icons on these displays.
Actually, I started using beautiful scalable (SVG) icons and fonts at worst in 2002 on my Gnome desktop
So, on my 100 dpi 22" monitor (in 1600x1200), the desktop is pretty sharp and the icons and fonts are like they should be, even if I change resolution. I bet it will be the same with 200+ dpi monitors.
3. Completely new UI, including some significant paradigm changes.
Do you mean MS actually invented something ? That will not be a ripoff of Mac OS X, Linux or other desktops ? Now I'm impressed.
I've seen nothing of the kind till now, but I suppose it is secret.
4. Seamless integration of client and server side (that's what XAML is all about, IMHO). Your webapps will actually run sandboxed
I'm a user, I have no need for your webapps. And client and server should not be integrated either, that is nonsense. The server should run the app, not me, so I do not need anything sandboxed. I think of the possibilities for a lot of virus yes.
5. Reliable Web Services - Indigo, web services that don't suck. More importantly, web service protocol that's supported by the majority of computers in the world (when most people upgrade). And you can bet your ass they will upgrade, just like a couple of years after W95 was released almost everyone ran W95.
I fail to understand how you can talk about "web service protocol". What is that, isn't it HTTP ? It is an open protocol, like they all should be on the internet. The internet is not MSN you know, that is a world for everyone, not just for Windows users.
The most important thing is, all of this will be available to Windows users out of the box, without any tweaking/recompiling/downloading dependencies. That's where the real strength of this all is. Developers will be able to rely on this stuff when building next-gen apps and be reasonably sure that if a user runs Longhorn, the app will run there.
Your description looks like what is already present in Windows now : ActiveX, Direct X,
I see no improvement. Will it all be open ? That would be an improvement.
It's time to stop copying Windows XP, folks. It's time to start copying Longhorn. Gnome devs have already realised that.
Who is copying Windows XP or
...from id, and just say "Longhorn - When It's Done".
In all seriousness, I don't understand what the delay is. Avalon and Indigo are, last I heard, pretty much done, and WinFS has been taken out of the Longhorn plan and is on the back burner for at least another 3 years; so I ask, in an open-letter-type-way, what the hell is the problem in releasing this POS?
Really, what, aside from these two new "major" components, are the major new features in this release of Windoze? Anyone?
"I don't get it." -- ObviousGuy
The next two years, will be the last chance to get Linux on the consumer desktop. no fanboy - linux will still be around in two, five, or twelve years because it is open source. it doesn't need a profit to survive. I don't care what paradigm shift, innovation microsoft supposedly comes up with and patents - linux will always be a good open standard solid computing environment. If corporations were smart they would shift now. I work in a very big corporation and I have debian on my sunblade at my desk and I do everything I need to do on it with linux. I am sure the secretary across the hall would be able to also except it isn't the "desktop standard" - one last thing is the wonderful intranet pages that were written with only internet explorer. I am tired - i am not even going start on that
Let us hope for the sake of people stuck using MS-Windows that Microsoft Longdelay ships with Mozilla or Firefox as standard.
See Internet Explorer Extinction blog post for what I pointed out on this topic back on 2004-10-16.
now3djp
'uf said.
What exactly does Longhorn offer other than a 3D accelerated interface and a big information bar on the side?
State of the art search technologies. Longhorn is the mother of the technology also used for Gnome's Beagle and Dashboard, and it will ship with an excellent interface for their search tools (probably much better than Apple's Spotlight).
Microsoft "Stuff I've Seen" interface will probably deprecate the current hierarchical filesystem for most end users, and integrated desktop + internet search will fight Google the same way than IExplorer fought Netscape.
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
I don't think I made the jump to ignoring the good and evil.
I said that, in the event that a 'good' institution used 'evil' methods -- and I understand that it isn't clearly cut, and even that this 'grey area' commentary is used as an excuse -- then they are no better than the 'evil' people they seek to remove.
Jack Bauer is both a hero and the dirtiest player in the book. I think it is right that he's brought to justice for his actions and face the consequences. It's not okay to say "well done, you stopped the nasty people, take a holiday".
You do know that the IQ-scale is normalized, right?
Damn. I guess his life and death were a total waste, then.
(Sorry, that was an evil comment. I'm sure the g-grandparent had many sterling qualities. *snicker*)
(Okay, that's evil again. My bad.)
i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
Ghandi and Luther King are good examples: they didn't need to defend themselves and the crimes they fought against were apparent.
Relativism is unavoidable: we live lives relative to others. I could construct an example of crime committed between two people that, as the story unfolds, the victim is the other person. Ultimately we are left in the position of perpetrators of crime against those less fortunate than us in the rest of the world.
What was your point? That Chomsky is unjustified and unreliable in Manufacturing Consent? Or that governments who kill their citizens by capital punishment (to suppress crime -- the major justification of capital punishment) or those who kill to suppress opposition to those in power are different kettles of fish because of an argument about moral context? (Who gives them the right to claim a higher moral context than any other regime?)
Or that there is a difference between a free society and a totalitarian society? I'll give you that, but don't kid yourself about the perverting influence of the private interests supporting any government, even your own.
It's called "dork chic" and it's a big hit with the ladies. Well, the chat room ladies. Okay, it's a big hit with my mom.
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
>Relativism is unavoidable
;-) )
:-P (I will let you make your own mind up about who has been poisoned by what.)
Heh. An absolutist take on relativism. That's good irony.
To be frank, mine is an incongruous statement. It's not ironical. See here.
My point was that people who are looking for truth or insight should avoid reading anything Chomsky says on the subjects of history or politics.
What if he just has a perspective that is different to yours? Is there no room in your world for that? Aren't people allowed to think differently to you? (mumbles: crusader for liberty and freedom, my foot!
You no longer see the difference between capital punishment and murder.
I choose to label capital punishment as state-sponsored murder. Do you believe it's okay for a government to punish people by death for severe infringement of their laws? What about adultery or apostasy in the Islamic Sharia system? How is that different to the 'righteous' acts of stopping the life of a killer in the USA?
I see both as devaluing human life in such a way that the system wins but humankind do not, and consider both examples (Sharia and U.S. law) to be abuses on citizens. It's this devaluing of human life that allows people to march into foreign countries with guns blazing, or to pack a truck with explosives and park it under a government building, as happened in Oklahoma. When we stop devaluing human life and seek to value and nourish it, then we have a reason to avoid killing and to follow the noble statements made that recognise the value of all human life.
Unfortunately, for many it's too late. You, for example, have been poisoned. You no longer see the difference between capital punishment and murder. You deny that this distinction even exists. Your mind has been poisoned. You've been perverted into something just slightly less than human.
Thank you for debating with me. And considering me worthy of having this discourse with, despite the fact you think I'm slightly less than human.
In case you have made assumptions about my attitude and actions with respect to morality and charity in the world we live, may I clarify: I give to charity and I volunteer my time. Right and Wrong are distinctions that aren't helpful to my life: more- and less-helpful, along with more- and less-appropriate guide me to seek to follow my conscience about what is the best for everyone.
I say this because I think that each person has to find their own way through life because the government, any religious order, their friends or their family cannot do it for them. Consequently each person must be the judge of whether or not the institutions around them (from those who supply them with food, news and employment to those who protect and serve them) are trustworthy and are doing a good job. I think it is essential that people are both skeptical and critical to avoid being 'robbed blind' by those wishing to gain advantage over them.