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Hong Kong Boy Scouts to Protect IP
phresno writes "Declan McCullagh at C|net's News.com has a short article on the development that the Hong Kong Boy Scouts Association has teamed up with the MPA to create an intellectual property merit badge. Mike Ellis of the MPA hopes this program will 'provide thousands of young people -- future leaders -- with a better understanding of the value of intellectual property.' Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984."
Is it just me, or is Hong Kong the perfect place for the MPAA to start brainwashing the youngest members of our society?
"No beer until you finish your tequila!" -Leela's Dad
Funny how you can still make use of children if you hit the right note.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
How about a GPL Merit Badge?
--- Attorneys Assisting Citizen-Soldiers & Families -
...or Hitler Youth, maybe?
Let me be one of the first to say this is absolutely sickening. Boy scouts are about honor and doing what is right and about self reliance and about all other good things like that. Not about serving commercial interests.
What next they have a McDonalds Merit Badge given to the kids who can eat a quarter pounder a day all week for supporting a good old american company? Well it means the same thing.
Really at the end of the day its just a badge. Sure it brainwashes kids to keep their intellectual property safe. Maybe if they keep the property then they will begin to think that the government can't interfere with their own intellectual property. This would be a huge step forward in China.
Don't mod me up.
Because, if you think piracy is bad here in the US...
In Asia it's all but legal. The problem is so big that mitigating it will take a lot more than a few boyscouts earning merit badges in Intellectual Property.
That is the most absurd think i've ever heard!!! Where is the world coming to?
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
Funny, my calendar shows May 3rd, not April 1st... this is just weird and scary.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
You know, it used to annoy me that these two shared the same initials. Turns out it was just being a bit prophetic...
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
"Hong Kong Boy Scouts Association has teamed up with the MPA to create an intellectual property merit badge."
I think the "l33t skillz" merit badge is going to trump that one any day of the week...
Surely a better way would be to drop such orwellian idea's and concentrate on providing a lasting business model which renders piracy pointless, like dirt cheap music from fast servers
but even if I did I'm pretty sure this is complete and utter HORSEHIT.
The BOY SCOUTS are going to do the job that a mega-corp watchdog group is supposed to do itself? WTF is up with that?
Dream as if you'll live forever.
Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
~Anonymous~
When a large industry has trouble enforcing rules it effectively set (speficially copyright terms and reductions on what constitutes fair use,) and begins to use Boy Scouts to 'spread the gospel'/'indoctrinate', you have to wonder if the law really is in the interest of the people.
Yet another case of people serving the economy, as opposed to vice versa.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Jokes aside, "protecting" intellectual property isn't just something you can do once, but something that will occur over your entire life. When do they get it? How do leaders know that, once they've got this badge, they won't just go back to torrenting stuff? Honestly, this is the most ridiculous idea I've ever heard. What's next, a Coke merit badge (which you get by promising never to drink any other cola)?
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
I have no idea what the Hong Kong boy scouts are like, but here in the US you will not find a strong criminal element (ignoring little boy pictures) that emanates from the Boy Scouts. You don't preach to college students the benefits of higher education.
Wasn't that the name of Buckaroo Banzai's band?
"It's a wonderful idea. But it doesn't work." -- Tad Danielewski
I'll post the first obligatory Nazi reference.
Having been a Scout myself, I can't imagine what possessed them to do this (other than $$$). I think I'll go home and burn all of my Scout awards, etc.
There was nothing in the Scout oath about being a corporate stooge.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
Why is there no Merit Badge for American Boy Scouts? What happened to the Technology in Education Initiative?
Wouldn't you think that the faster the youth understands something the faster they can circumvent the system?
My hats off to you MPA! Thank you for creating the defense lawyers of tomorrow!
----- You know you have ego issues when you register a domain in your name.
The key question is why the education systems we all pay for are facilitating this (although perhaps not in this particular case, many schools in the US have also been willing channels for pro-intellectual property propaganda).
Visitors to Hong Kong some years ago may remember the Golden Arcade. It was infamous for bootleg software, movies, video games, and anything else that resides on digital media.
After that got closed down due to U.S. pressure, they started opening up shops in dark alleys. I remember going to one of those places one time. There was a guy who stood in front of the dark alley way (I think I was 12 years old at the time), and I swear there was a 3-carat diamond attached to each of the numbers on his Rolex (and every one of his teeth, it seemed like). Talk about heaven. Through all the cigarette smoke, I was able to make out things like NT5 alpha CDs and PlayStation games. Those were the days. Although it seemed like you needed pretty good English skills to open up one of these outfits, since most buyers were British or Australian.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Who ever heard of Japanese boyscouts? I thought boyscouts were a Soviet Russia only sort of thing.
Boy scouts are about honor and doing what is right and about self reliance and about all other good things like that.
Well, it's a para-military brigade that was originally advertised as a good way to keep young boy's hands busy (i.e. to prevent them... going blind).
So it's a pretty good choice for an organisation who's been attempting through various means to indoctrinate the next generation into their view on copyrights.
You can't take the sky from me...
In partnership with the Boy and Girl Scouts of Amerika, we at McDonalds have helped create a business support merit badge that is earned in just the way you have described.
[Patent Pending on this business method].
There is not nearly enough love in the world, but there is far too much trust.
"Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984"
I was actually thinking about some other youth group...
So do the HK boy scouts disappear without a trace when the topic of democracy is brought up in their work on a civics merit badge?
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
And I already had problems telling the two BSAs apart...
-- dR.fuZZo
The "Don't bake with that recipe" campaign promises to end the rampant piracy of thin mints.
I know that Scouts learn by doing things, such as tying knots, building camp fires and so on.
Does this mean they'll learn about IP by using BitTorrent, Exeem and so on? If so, about 70% of Hong Kong deserves that badge.
I mean honestly you deserve a badge for having seen that image, and it would do just as much good for the youth straight. (pun very much intended)
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
.. Where's the "Fuck the Entertainment Industry" badge?
Apparently, you have to be able construct an FBI warning using nothing but your scarf, a pocketknife, and some damned-fine whittling.
Please post yours below:
I'm sorry, but your opinion seems to be wrong.
If the EFF offered its own course in Intellectual Property, would the Boy Scouts accept completion of that course as meeting the requirements for getting this merit badge?
"Do I dare disturb the universe?"
The organization has also announced new available merit badges in the following categories:
- Fascism
- Lawsuits
- Falsifying evidence
- Misinterpreting technlologies they don't understand
Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
Boy Scouts are dorks anyway. This will probably push some fence-sitters over to music piracy just to avoid any association...
Kids should be learning useful life skills such as how to start fires in the wilderness using rudimentary materials found in nature. What's next, a /. moderation merit badge?
Why am I on Slashdot? I'm bored. Why am I bored? I'm on Slashdot.
Why in the hell would the scouts take a position on a politicized issue like this?
This gives a whole new meaning to "Weblows"
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I feel compelled to say that this is utterly wrong. A scout is a lot of things. Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. But not "aware of copyright laws." I don't recall the Scout Oath containing anything about being a corporate shill for the recording industry; merely promising to do your duty to my God, my country, my community, and myself. This is absurd.
In Soviet Russia jokes are formulaic and decidedly non-humorous.
Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984.
Is it OK for those of us without tinfoil hats to think the same thing?
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
Personally, I can't think of anything better than training young people to rat out their friends and families, all the while standing up for the rights of IP owners like Disney. We don't want those poor Hollywood bums to go broke do we?
Definitely Orwellian.
BDR Gear
Outdoor gear, MREs, and more!
Does the Hong Kong Boys Scouts Association have a drifting and automobile customization patch?
~Someday, I hope to be an aspiring author.
Quoted: "Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984." Or maybe the Hitler Youth.
In America, Entertainment Industry fucks YOU!
:-P
in DDoSing the networks of enemy nations?
That we don't have a "Young Patriot" merit badge here in the US.
"Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
I think it's sad that my children will grow up in a world where true freedom of speech won't exist.
Another thing, if people start to let this kind of thing exist in the world, what will be next? Our children being brainwashed by the large corperations, those big enough to no doubt supply the $$$ to 'encourage' this.
It is bad enough with the TV telling them they 'need' the latest action toy, but that doesnt quite have the same effect as trying to make them earn it, as if it is something to be proud of.
Here are several merit badges foreign powers could "suggest" (strong-arm) the Boy Scouts of America to include...in the interests of fair balance, cultural exchange, and all that:
1) Suicide Bomber Merit Badge (sponsor: Saddam Hussein Regime in Exile)
2) Suicide Pilot Merit Badge (sponsor: Al Q'aida)
3) Cheese and Wine Merit Badge (sponsor: France)
4) Diplomacy Merit Badge (sponsor: the whole of the Earth outside of the USA, note attached reads "Please America, learn this one well!")
5) Cooperative and Free Culture Merit Badge (sponsor: the whole of the non-western world that still remembers a time when the people owned their culture, not the copyright cartels of faceless corporations).
6) P2P Merit Badge (sponsor: every tech-savvy person under the age of 40)
I'm sure there are others, like remedial courses in the separation of church and state, tolerance for women, tolerance for gays, and so on, but the list grows rather onerous quite quickly.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I think this could be either a good or a bad thing, depending on implementation. I'm all for people being better educated about copyright/patent/trademark law, so long as they present the issues from all sides. Remember, copyright does serve a useful purpose, and even Lawrence Lessig doesn't advocate abolishing it completely, just limiting its scope to be more reasonable.
Go have a peek, it's hilarious!
Scouting should be training young minds to do the honorable thing. Unauthorized copying is not honorable, no matter how much we despise the corporations holding the copyright. A more sensible approach would be to organize a boycott of abusive corporations... I wonder if they can get a merit badge for that?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
"Don't suspect a friend, report them."
Orwell was an optimist.
What's next, a /. moderation merit badge?
What's the point? Noone would qualify.
8. Is it permissible to accept a free copy of a computer game or program from a friend? Why or why not?
The full requirement list can be found here.
I still stole software before and after earning the badge, and pretty much all of my troop members traded games and stole music like any other typical set of adolescent men.
However, as an Eagle Scout, I have changed my stance and was disappointed that this merit badge didn't make it to the states.
I think that Stalin said something similar and it is why Bill Gates is so keen to get his software into schools .....
Funny I was thinking Hitlers Youth.
I think Orwell isn't enough here. Try Hitlerjugend.
with a better understanding of the value of intellectual property
No I have a better understanding.
Signed
I.P. Freely
Would you get the badge for making a back-up of your software pursuant to 107 of the Copyright Act or a mix tape for your friends pursuant to the Home Recording Act?
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
As usual, the media distorts the picture.
Actually, this "badge" is useless. The number of kids going around buying copy PS2 games, CDs, etc. is amazing in Hong Kong. I'd say over 99% of PS2 games, software, DVDs, etc. in Hong Kong are copies/counterfeit. No doubt, they'll just get the badge and continue on their merry way as usual.
Counterfeit software and goods is a way of life and culture in Hong Kong, China, and many places in Asia. You have "Woman's Street", which is an ENTIRE long street dedicated to fake goods. You even have police patrolling the area to keep it safe from pickpockets! But they are never shut down. Go there to find your "LV" bags, "Dior" rings, and "Rolex" watches.
In fact, now that they have made it safer to go to these places, MORE tourists are turning up. There are less seedy types and more goods now.
So I really think this is a pointless exercise. Now that China and HK are working together more, even MORE copy stuff is going to HK. And with HK's famous low crime rate and focus on making money and business, it is the IDEAL place to get these kind of things: total safe, cheap, available everywhere.
**FREE** Track and view your phone's via CellID and/or WIFI and/or GPS
Shouldn't that be included under the IP merit badge, since it protects the intellectual property of open source developers.
Note the current requirement #8 for Computers Merit Badge in the U.S.: http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/036.htm
I guess they took a lesson from the DARE program for gettings kids to rat out friends/family.
I thought the Boy Scouts were supposed to morals and leadership skills to future generations. I think respecting other peoples IP falls under the morals category. They already teach you not to plagiarize other peoples work, which is really the same thing, so I don't see why you find this so upsetting. I suppose next you were about to complain that they teach kids not to cheat on tests.
Scout A: I'm working on the whitewater kayaking badge.
Scount B: I'm working on the wilderness survival badge.
Scout C: I'm working on the Intellectual Property badge.
Scouts A & B: Whoa! Cool!
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Ofcourse, that would become problematic if they want to use the GPL or a CC licence for their IP. ;-)
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
...so, when did "doing what is right" not include "honoring the law"??? Much as we all hate it, that's what it is...
But who's this going to effect, the kids who go to Boy Scouts are more likely to be the ones who don't pirate films
The kids who sit at home on Kazaa and doing stuff other than helpful 'community building' activites will be most of the people who pirate things. Nice targetting MPAA. doh!
Business Voyeur
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7813/
The BSA needs to respond.
------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
Yada yada yada ... and I promis not to steal intellectual property... yada yada yada ... before god and country ... yada yada yada
Jamey Kirby
...since surely the first step in changing unjustly-attained corporate sponsored IP law is educating people why it is such a bad thing in and of itself.
"Copying a shitty CD will get me fined a billion dollars and raped in prison? That law sucks! Where do I sign up to change it?"
Also, I don't know if scouts in other countries is much like scouts here in the UK, but we used to make our own music, perhaps they could encourage these kids to create stuff instead of stealing/copying-with-infringement (delete as applicable) the shit the corporate machine is spewing out.
Game dev and music blog
Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984
Actually it reminds me more of Joe Camel. Recruit them when they are young and easily manipulated. The twisted youth of today will be your army of tomorrow.
An early draft of the badge design can be found here:
http://img226.echo.cx/img226/3209/ipbadge9cz.jpg
Slow Down, Cowboy! It's been 60 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment.
Hmmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
The next merit badge they come up with should be "Protecting Your Bung Hole from the Scout Master"
"doing the right thing"
In that case they should come up with a badge with Disney on it called "Whining to Congress until you get copyright laws extended for a period close to 100 yrs so you never have to put anything into the public domain even though many of your ideas originated from the public domain."
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Bicycle Repair Man....
Somebody remember "Troop Beverly Hills" ?
Next up will be badges for:
"Can count to 10 on one hand" and
"Have watched all 350 episodes of Simpsons consecutively"
Geez
The Scout Oath includes "to obey the Scout Law". The Scout Law includes Trustworthy, Friendly, Obiedient, and Thrifty. Can you not be trusted with other peoples Intellectual Property? Are you not obedient to the laws? Thrifty does not mean steal it to save money. If you can't be friendly w/o sharing copyrighted material, do you have friends or leaches?
Maybe you should turn in your card.
Not that I really like the idea of a merit badge designed by a corporation.
I'm just worried about this quote..
" Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984."
I mean how did they know that I was thinking about the youth in Orwell's 1984 when I had my best tinfoil hat on?!? Obviously they have found a way to bypass the tried and true method to block mind control/reading.. Perhaps it's time to look towards different foil types?
There's already a big enough problem with Catholic preists and little boys.
The corporate shill part comes from the connection of 'honor' with a system created by companies who have subverted the entire intent of the copyright systems into some perverse "Intellectual Properties" concept that allows a company to essentially own thoughts that exist in your head, or your own memories. Until Disney and the *AA began lobbying Washington, it was a purely civil matter, because everyone understood that physical property was something completely different. The propaganda campaign of the big IP corporations has been extremely successful; of course, big campaign contributions don't hurt.
Thinking outside my Head
"Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984."
And those whose grandparents survived the holocaust might be thinking of the non-fictional Hitler Youth.
There is no more innocence.
I think you should ask the Catholic Church, particularly Cardinals Bernard Law and Roger Mahoney, about the wisdom of putting homosexuals in charge of young boys.
Think about this: scouts go camping. Would you send your daughter on a campout, miles away from civilization, with a heterosexual man? So why should someone send their son into the same situation with a homosexual? The BSA' policy makes sense. They're just too polite to draw the parallel to the homosexual pedophile priest scandal.
-paul
Pistol caliber is like religion: everyone has their favourite, and theirs is the only right choice.
Boy scouts scare the shit out of me.
Small children required to stand at attention, swearing oats they don't understand. Small children learning obidience to elders, to an organisation out of their parents control. Ever read about that anywhere? (this was a core element in italic/german fascism for the knowledge-impaired)
Sure, the organisation is benign and all nice and stuff now, but will it stay that way?
"" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
The new Political Correctness, Explore Your Feminine Side, Gay Is OK, and now IP merit badges would surely make him choke on his undercooked damper-bread.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
What are you talking about My troop is north Carolina has one person who stole a gun. One person who sole a car ( both sentenced to be in boy scouts) and lets not talk about arson! One person was written up on Klan watch for vandalizing a school. He latter was charge with theft and filing a false police report after he lied and said that a black man was going to kill him if he did not steal. Don't forget that Jeffrey Dahmer was an eagle scout. Moral My ass
Here we go again. The entertainment industry and their lawyers have done a great job convincing the public that they "own" copyright and that copyright infringement is "stealing," but neither one is true. You can't steal what nobody owns. There are no copyright "owners," there are only copyright "holders" who have specific rights for a limited time. The term "intellectual property" is just a euphemism. Copyright infringement is more like driving in the carpool lane by yourself than like stealing actual property. The fact that infringement can cause financial loss doesn't make it "theft" any more than vandalism is "theft." Vandalism may devalue property, and conceptually you could think of it as theft if you want to, but it's a distinctly different act, and so is infringement.
This isn't just nitpicking. There are good reasons to keep a distinction between theft and rights infringement. The concept of property has been around almost as long as humans have walked the Earth. It's part of the way we think. Exclusive rights to intangibles is a much newer concept, much less clear than the idea of owning and consuming objects. When IP laws originated, the difficulty of making copies provided a certain level of natural protection, without draconian restrictions on the general public. As technology makes it more and more trivial to make and distribute copies, it's not at all clear that maintaining traditional IP protection is acceptable, or even economically possible. It's not at all clear that existing copyright laws must be maintained forever at any cost.
Equating copyright with property and infringement with theft lets the entertainment industry play the part of the little old lady chasing a purse snatcher down the street. It's an advantage they don't deserve. Right now the entertainment industry has copyright law on its side, and they do an enormous amount of moral posturing behind that fact. But if law itself were our only moral compass, then black people would still be sitting in the back of the bus and using separate drinking fountains. People have to stop sucking up the industry's PR and ask big questions, like how much should the fate of a $7 billion/year industry influence the course of a trillion dollar economy?
count me as another eagle scout disgusted by the commercialism of hollywood in violating the focus and spirit of the scouts. who the heck would want to earn this badge anyway (unless the requirements were supremely easy to pass)?
then again, perhaps the scouts earning the badge wouldn't necessarily become mouthpieces of the industry.
I wonder if part of the badge will constitute turning in your friends who are using P2P to curtail intellectual property theft? I can totally see it happening.
I finally found a topic on slashdot that was too nerdy even for me :P
Why scouts? Read the following for an answer. Remember kids, copyright is valued more than genuine and harmless fun with friends around the campfire.
ASCAP Reaches Agreement With Guides and Scouts
A major collector of copyright fees in the United States is ASCAP - the American Society of Composers and Publishers http://ascap.com/ and in Canada SOCAN - the Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers http://www.socan.ca/. Regional offices are charged with the responsibility of collecting fees and the following article is taken from the Wall Street Journal, July 15, 1997.
"Martinsville, IN. - The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers reached an agreement with the American Camping Association allowing camps to use copyrighted music, including music sung around the campfire, for a nominal fee. The camping association, which is based here, said the agreement calls for it to pay $1 per camp per year for permission to use all ASCAP-licensed music. The association represents more than 2,200 summer camps, including some Girl Scout and Boy Scout camps. Last summer, several Girl Scout camps deleted ASCAP songs from their programs, including "God Bless America" and "This Land is Your Land", after ASCAP notified the Association that camps must pay a fee to use copyrighted songs. Following a front page article in this newspaper, ASCAP reimbursed 16 Girl Scout councils that did pay the fees and exempted the Girl Scouts from paying license fees in the future. But ASCAP ad not clarified the license policy for other nonprofit camps. ASCAP said yesterday that camps that don't belong to the camping association may be subject to license fees, but they won't have to pay "if there is no direct or indirect economic gain from the performance of music".
After reading news like this, please consider the following: stop downloading, stop buying, stop listening to artists that are represented by these organizations. Teach your children that there are free alternatives, and they don't need to listen to Brit or Avril or Dursts new shit to be cool.
Hack your mind out of its sandbox.
It's a good thing we're modernizing Asia and India by outsourcing our manufacturing. Rather than pioneering industrial robotics, we're enabling others to do that. See, "Managing" is a much better thing for the US to be involved in.
...let me be the first to say, "nooooooo!"
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
I spend time at my son's Boy Scout den teaching them about Open Source and Free Software. If the Boy Scouts teach the kids how to help others, I think having an IP badge is totally against what the boy scouts preach. Wanna bet some company from the pacific northwest is somehow involved in this?
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
That's a slippery slope you're heading down. Public funds are often used to promote things that are ostensibly in the public interest, but may not hold up to individual scrutiny 100 percent of the time. You might not like it that your local public library keeps copies of "Mein Kampf" and "Huckleberry Finn," but I would argue that a library system that doesn't carry those books on principle is not a library system at all. I might not agree that teaching abstinence is the best way to prevent pregnancy and transmission of STDs among teenagers, but I'm willing to have my tax dollars support groups that teach abstinence to teens, regardless of my opinion of their underlying political slant, because the benefits of teaching abstinence probably outweigh the negatives. (In other words, it's worth a try.) Similarly, you might not agree with everything the Boy Scouts teach, but as an institution it's probably done more good for more boys than it has done harm. It seems a little harsh to suggest pulling public funding on the basis of your personal opinions about the organization's ideology. That way of thinking isn't too far from the idea of withholding public arts funding from art that isn't to your personal taste (something else I disagree with). The world just isn't binary like that. Very few things are "all good" or "all bad," so why insist on trying to impose all-or-nothing solutions on them?
Breakfast served all day!
We deserve far more reactionary headlines .. like may i suggest.
Group with alleged links to paedophiles announces IP rights project for Young boys.
You try licking 30,000 stamps. 3 calories apiece, that'll keep you up all night and you're gonna have to be quite an exercise bug to get that weight off.
And with those impressive tongue muscles, you might as well stay morally straight because the women are gonna LOVE you....
Then again, maybe stamp collecting should be a girl scout badge...
The merit badge program is simply designed to teach kids about IP and their responsibility to protect their own IP and that of other groups whose IP they use. It's not about telling kids to buy only Microsoft or SCO products and never touch Linux, it's about teaching kids how to apply the moral values they've been taught to the IP of others.
Again, regardless of what you think of the Boy Scouts of America, this article is not about that organization. If you want to express your feelings on how bigoted you think the BSA is for not wanting to associate their members with gays and atheists, go ahead, that's your right. But this is the wrong time, wrong place, and wrong subject to do it on. I suspect that this article was submitted merely to start a roast of the BSA for no reason. Congratulations, you've succeeded, although I'm not seeing any members leaving in droves yet.
Prodigy? CompuServe? I think they may want to consider yet another update.
They're both still around. CompuServe is now part of AOL, and Prodigy is now SBC Internet. But yes, I agree that the wording needs updated for the fact that all commercial ISPs go to the same Internet (and not President Bush's other internets).
I find this truly appaling. Now over here in .be we don't have the badge system, but the idea of a honour in learning IP low is just wrong. I feel compelled to look up those at the HK scouts who approved this and making my point clear.
Any suggestions about the contents of that e-mail?
Actually, Boy Scouts, like choirboys, might benefit more from the protections of an Orwellian "Anti-Sex League".
--
make install -not war
The copyright industry has tried to tie the unrelated issues of plagiarism and copyright together, in order to attribute the distaste we have for the ancient injustice of plagiarism to the modern practice of perpetual copyright.
We should not succumb to this deception. Plagiarism is a completely different offense that dates back to Roman times if not earlier. The offence of plagiarism is claiming credit for someone else's work. If you purchase the rights to a term paper from its original author or if you copy from a pre-copyright source like Shakespeare or Aristotle, you've still committed plagiarism if you submitted that paper as your own work, even though you haven't committed copyright infringement.
Copyright is the comparatively recent idea of governments granting temporary monopolies to publishers. If you've copied the latest top 20 hit, you've committed copyright infringement though you haven't committed plagiarism unless you redistributed the song under your name instead of the original artist's name. Copyright is a less serious offense than plagiarism, as we can see in part because it's a temporary offence: after all, if the item you copied was old enough for the monopoly to lapse, you haven't committed copyright infringement.
What makes software better?
Innovation, right?
So why not let people or companies that innovate decide if they want to protect their intellectual property. Same for poets and authers. Let them decide if they want to protect their works or give it away.
Why not instead of blacketly attacking the idea of IP, we respect that people are free to protect their ideas just as you are free to protect your PC from theft?
If some freely give their innovative ideas away while others charge a fee, no harm is doen. After all they created it.
The only harm comes when someone invents a great idea and for some reason or another keeps it to themselves. What if someone discovered the cure for aids, but did want the credit taken away from them and so they kept it hidden in their mind? That is the only time harm is truly done. What if MS just took GNU code and used it without following the GNU license? Then harm would be done.
Property must be respected whether it is an idea or a computer. You need to have some security that others cannot take what is yours.
Just a thought.
Respect the Constitution
Is nothing sacred? Will we be seeing televangelists condemning "downloading" as a sin next or what?
Meet new people, and kill them.
- I.V.
"These laws they're passing won't even compile anymore, let alone execute." - anon
ummm, there is almost no mention of youth in 1984.
probably more fitting is animal farm, wherein the young (puppies) are sequestered away by the elite (pigs) to be brainwashed into straight-for-the-jugular law enforcement.
please, read both books. they are enjoyable in different ways...
Isn't this covered by the Stealing merit badge?
Having recently dealt with this in my troop, I can say that you're absolutely right.... but you really need some context. The BSA (A == USA) position is that they want kids to acknowledge that there's some power greater than themselves, than what they can see and feel. It's a requirement, but it's a very fuzzy one, in that. Hell, if you so much as claimed midoclorians en mass were the driving Force of the universe with a straight face, you're good to go. Granted, the Baptist minister of our chartering organization might lift an eyebrow, but he'd have to live with it.
Frankly, the higher power requirement itself isn't that big of a deal to me. Our kids get some practice for adult life, such as in teamwork, leadership, and deciding how much fight you want to put into defending a belief system. The kid in my troop decided to take a hike... and joined another troop in more or less of a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. Better he get first exposure to that as an Eagle candidate at 15 than as a naive college grad looking to climb a career ladder.
I'm not too keen on the gay ban in Scouts, but the Scouts are not a cutting edge social organization, and if it looks like we're still a half generation away from full civil rights for gays, it isn't going to help by crucifying the Scouts for reflecting that. You want to beat on someone, beat on the Mormons for making Scouts their official youth program, with the result that about a quarter of all Scouts are Mormon. Ergo, Mormon mores have a lot of pull.
That said, if the BSA ever hooked up with the MPAA on something as off the wall and candyass as an "IP protection" merit badge, particularly if they made it a requirement for Eagle, I'd piss and moan to the high heavens.
Luke, help me take this mask off
Just thought I'd share, for the hell of it.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
I'm a Christian and a Conservative Republican and I completely agree with your .sig. It's absolutely correct and very insightful.
But, but, think of the children!
in other words, how do you prove you've protected intectual property? prove you've never downloaded an illegal mp3? snitch on someone you know that is downloading software illegaly? don't hang out with people who pirate movies online? or would they take my word when I say that I've protected intellectual property?
HD Trailers
Oh, I remember those. They actually took some skill back in the old days.
Now, you just need to go to that goddamn arts & crafts hellhole called "Michaels" to buy a pinewood derby car kit. Just press the parts together and you're done.
bleah
Cool, a "brainwashing" badge. Close the minds of our youth rather than opening them.
At least these may stop those horrible HK anime DVDs.
Those with tinfoil hats will surely be thinking of the youth in Orwell's 1984.
I was thinking more of the youth in Hitler's 1936.
> If you say "I don't believe in God," you can no longer be considered a Boy Scout
Ummm... Because once you get over the belief in some amorphous, all-powerful father-figure you are no longer a "boy" but a "man"?
Yea, that must be it.
What don't you understand? On slashdot all intellectual property is considered evil.
> The BSA (A == USA) position is that they want kids to acknowledge that
> there's some power greater than themselves, than what they can see and feel.
Does the Strong Nuclear Force count?
It is certainly a power greater than myself (it "holds the universe together"), I cannot see nor feel it and I really do believe in its existence.
I read once where Dogbert tried to enlist the aid of some Boy Scouts to help him acheive world domination.
"World domination doesn't come with merit badges," they replied. "We only work for merit badges."
I couldn't find the details about this badge anywhere in the http://www.scout.org.hk/. Apperantly they have not uploaded the details of this new badge or they're not enthusiastic about it.
3 3&cid=12424010, this does not really matter anyway because no one would really care.
A k06.html
0 171.htm
From the Standard [1], this badge is NOT a MERIT BADGE. It's a proficiency badge which you cannot put it on the scout shirt. Besides, what you only need to do is to attend a series of seminars/indoctrinations as you see fit, and vola, you got the badge. The local media did try not to twist the story too much. So it's not really a matter of brainwashing after all, and Slashdotters should not really go crazy about this subject. Besides, some1somewhere was right on his post #12424010 http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1482
The HK SAR government seems to be quite enthusiastic about this and issued a press release [2].
References:
[1] http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/Metro/GE04
[2] http://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/200504/30/0429
28481k
How about having the FSF or EFF come back with a open-source badge?
"First of all, people are still taking their content without paying for it. This leaves them no incentive to keep on putting out albums."
Call me crazy, but if an artist doesnt want to create because they arent getting paid, how much of an "artist" can they possibly be?
"If people continue to disregard intellectual property law, the business models that the creative industries use will change. However, the industries as a whole will have to change as well, and this will likely result in far lower production of creative works. That's exactly what intellectual property law is there to prevent."
This isnt about saying "oh we want shit for free" - this about saying, I want to pay the content producers - not the destributors( riaa )..
You see, the way it works now, there are many many middle men sitting inbetween the artists and the consumers. What this new "business model" will be, is the death of the middlemen which IMHO is NEVER a bad idea.
I guess the question is, in this world of best buys, astroturfing, paid for studies and ads everywhere, what value do any of these "skimmers off the top" add? Do you go to best buy because the guy knows alot about the computer hes selling? Or do you go where the best price is.
If you could buy that same computer from the warehouse for hundreds less, wouldnt you?
The internet is making this possible. Welcome to the internet generation.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
He did NOT say that it was not a crime, just that the crime is copyright inferingement, no theft. Where did you get the "its not a crime" line from?
If you believe in privacy, and believe you have "nothing to hide" at the same time, you're a goddammed idiot
The reference to 1984 is apt.
Winston Smith's neighbour Parsons is reported to the though police by his son, a member of the "spies" a children's paramilitary organisation somewhat akin to the Scouts.
When the H*ll am I gonna get my cnet news radio back? Declan Mcmullah or whatever belongs in RADIO. I will never forget the day he broadcast Metallica showing up to bust pirates. They haven't gotten a dime from me since then...
Why not call it what it really is.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
How about a big Embroidered Rat?
Maybe it would be a good time to make a Knoppix CD for scouts? Help them get the computing merit badge and maybe a few others? I loved scouting until I dropped out because of a shitty group and gave up my hopes for an Eagle, but you could do worse than use free software to help more geeks get merit badges and get Eagle Scout free software evangelists. Actually it would seem to be natural to use free software if you are going to limit copying to that which can be done legally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth
Boy scouts [...] a para-military brigade
Was that flamebait? Let's ask Robert Baden-Powell:
The part on idle hands then?
Or the part about the RIAA wanting to indoctrinate young people making a good choice picking an organisation that has access to a lot of young people and who are trusted to teach them usefull skills and solid values?
Which part of my post, exactly, do you people think was meant to insult and enrage?
You can't take the sky from me...
It can be argued that the ideals of scouting are much more related to the free software / opensource movement than to the current abuses of intellectual property (which isn't bad in itself).
This is the point raised by Marco Fioretti in his two articles on LinuxJournal:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7533
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7813
Maybe these articles would make a good Slashdot story!
"that is theft of potential income."
Right, and when the lottery doesn't send that $100 mil my way, I'll sue them for loss of potential income too.
Maybe their potential income was 0. Can you steal nothing?
"However, the industries as a whole will have to change as well, and this will likely result in far lower production of creative works."
That's a silly thing to say.
If the money is there...and by jingy, with all that piracy going on, the studios are still raking in billions, then the content producers will produce.
Let me ask you something Mr. "I'm shilling for Sony This Week"... If Copyright were limited to 17 years, and you didn't have the FBI working as your enforcement arm, what would be the net result? What... Metallica would make records but only give them to their friend?
Nope, you'd have to sell them cheaper. Maybe Lars doesn't get an endowment for all eternity off "Sandman". Maybe he has to just be a millionaire instead of a zillionaire. Maybe the head of sony has to get by with 18 cars instead of 100.
And maybe...just maybe this will open the floodgates to thousands of competitors who aren't locked out by stupid rules designed to keep your masters in power.
Maybe artists will pursue alternate distribution methods.
Probably nobody will employ you.
All of these are GREAT things. And you're defending the status quo because it benefits you. NOT because it benefits society.
"You don't get to decide who to pay."
Actually we do. We are not just consumers. We are citizens in a representative democracy.
That means the laws that create copyright a particular way can and will change to meet the will of the majority. They can and will change. That much is inevitable.
The record companies don't give a crap about the artists (when they say they do, I find it more offensive than kiddy porn), they care about maximizing profits. So lets get rid of that fiction. If the record companies won't respond to market pressure (i.e. "people won't pay us, we'd better lower prices"), then we will decide *IF* we want to pay.
The record companies have twisted copyright beyond all comprehension. So the consumer has decided who he will pay. Nobody. People know they're being screwed so they're simply ignoring you and your corporate masters.
You will fall. You will fall hard and its because of your own greed. You screw the consumer, you get rich, and then won't pay the artist. Poor you. Grandma downloaded something from Napster! Better sue her.
Its time for you and the record companies to fade into the sunset. Good riddence to bad rubbish.
" I mean the FSF uses the very same IP laws to go after people that break the GPL."
Huh?
The FSF has reminded some companies about their obligation to share the source code.
In your world, that's the same as 10,000 lawsuits aimed primarily at shaking down consumers for $5K a pop?
What magic world do you live in? Sony/CBS land? Where copying a CD for a friend == terrorism/communism/bad breath all rolled into one?
"I think it's Just"
And southern whites thought it was "just" to keep another person as a slave because of their color about 150 years ago right here in the good ole' U.S. of A.
"Who the hell are you, and why should YOU determine what's Just or not in the nation?"
Separate but equal...law of the land
Slavery okay...law of the land
Okay to exclude people based on skin color...law of the land
Herding Americans into concentration camps because they or their ancestors were from Japan...law of the land
Discrimination against a person because they happen to enjoy having sex with the same gender...law of the land
Dude, you're either ignorant of history or you're just plain dumb. Unjust and immoral laws are always on the books. People should and do speak up when they're wrong.
And who "he" is, is somebody speaking up against an immoral and unjust law. And who "you" are is open to debate. Mr. Crow. Or should I call you "jimmy"?
"It's completely unambiguous"
No, its completely ambiguous.
If I buy a CD and copy it so my wife can listen to it...is that okay or not?
If my CD is cracked and can't be read, can I ask a friend to make a copy for me to keep?
If I buy a CD and it is stolen, can I ask my friend to make a copy to listen to? Is the thief entitled to listen to my CD?
I bought a CD, but want to listen to it on my whole-house entertainment system which involves ripping it to the HD and playing it through the network in my house. Okay or not?
You see clarity? I see bullshit.
"Should an author's family benefit, for a good long time, from his work? Some artists invest years of their lives in works that turn out to have serious impact. They do that work instead of other work that might benefit their family in the near term. "
The answer is not complicated but you won't like it.
If you go to the smithsonian museum in washington DC, you will see the U.S. Capitol made out of glass rods. It took the artist years of work. And the whole thing can be held in a 4x6 glass case. Its beautiful. And I suspect the guy made nothing at all from it. Everybody looks at it for free. He gets nothing.
An author quits his job, forces his family to leave their house to write a book. He spends years writing a magnum opus and in his opinion he creates the greatest literary work in the English language. What is he entitled to?
Lets say his book is a success and he makes 10 million dollars. And then the poor guy dies. Did he create a literary work or a legacy for his family?
I work at a 9-9 job, I have 3 beautiful kids, I never get to see them because I work so hard. ANd in the ultimate act of irony, I die at age 40. What are my kids entitled to at that point?
The guy who made $10M. Seems like a good deal to me. Is his family entitled to make more?
Why is anybody entitles to make anything?
What if congress changes copyright so its 17 years long. Did congress just steal from the author? If congress makes copyright 500 years long, did they just steal from the public?
Isn't the public entitled to works in the public domain?
Your argument seems to fall apart at the slightest logical test. Perhaps your basic premise is wrong?
"I have lost track of the amount of times that I have mentioned to someone that they were guilty of distributing copyrighted material illegally only to have them look at me like a deer caught in someone's headlights."
Because they're thinking.... what the @#$@ is this asshat talking about? Must make mental note...don't take computer to this asshat again.
I'll bet you're a real joy to work with. Do girls go out with you after about the 2nd date? Or are you a big pain in the ass in real life, too?
"swearing oats"
Seems unhealthy to me.
Only Genghis Khan, Napoleon and David Frost have one (but Frost pinched his...)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
I was a scout for many years. But all my scouting was done in England, in British troops (5th Stevenage Air Scouts to be specific). A lot more inclusive there. I then returned to the US (to join the military), and went and checked out the local BSA troop. Did not stay long. Religious prejudice abounded. I am not a Christian...or even a follower of an Abrahamic tradition. And was quickly let known that I was not welcome as a result. So I left. I then looked into the BSA with more detail. And based on my findings, I think the BSA needs to stop associating themselves with the World Scouting Association as the BSA left the ideals of the WSA a long time ago.
BSA in NOT funded with public funds.
I don't know where you think you're getting your information but I assure you that you are mistaken, BSA is not supported with government moneies.
\Yeah, that's like sooo outdated, nobody downloades files anymore. And Input/ouput devices have gone the way of the big blue dinosaurs\
all those requirements seem to be relative to computers... where do you live that you couldn't find a merit badge counselor that was qualified to hold those kind of discussions?
but it all depends on what your definition of it is...
Overnight campouts with the boy scouts are often a fifth graders first experience being away from their parents. Only a person without childern and/or of questionable sexual preferences themselves would advocate the involvement of avowed homosexuals in that environment.
I mean who in their right mind would let their kid spend the night with whacko jacko anyway? The boy scouts would very quickly become a "gays only" organization were they to endorse homosexuality.
Homosexuality is bad for a culture/society/sivilization. reproduction comes from hetrosexual contact. And in the long run reproduction is a lot more sustainable than recruitment. the new recruits tend to dilute your doctorine.
I dare say that, even in 1998, when I earned the merit badge, I could do 4b,c,d in under half an hour, especially if there was an offline document to recreate. Maybe I was a little more saavy with computers than most scouts at that age at that time. What certainly doesn't help is that most merit badge counselors accept "prior art." I would routinely fulfill the requirements for a badge, find a counselor, and have him sign off on a blue card (a generic small blue form for merit badge counselors to list the scout's info, the badge, and the requirements to get signed off on. for those still following this thread who were never boy scouts). Or at the class simply say, "yeah, I've done that" and describe it. Since a scout is trustworthy, most conselors I've met will sign off without any proof.
While there are some counselors who go "above and beyond" and really go into the subject matter to ensure the scouts actually learn something, most conselors for this badge would be happy to hear a recitation of the dictionary definitions for the terms in #6.
Maybe the scouts you work with are smarter than normal boy scouts. My brother (who is a Star) knows some basics about hardware and relative pricing, but wouldn't be able to fulfill this requirement without at least reading through a circular. Probably better (for more in-depth-ness) would be instead of comparing prices of a prebuilt HP and a prebuilt Sony in a BestBuy circular, having to do the research to find prices for a motherboard, proc, etc.
I don't know. Maybe I just had a bad experience with this and several other badges. Maybe in this case, I'm too close to the subject to see it objectively. Maybe I'm going out of my way to find faults in a program that officiially excluded me in 2000.
Free MacMini
Actually we do. We are not just consumers. We are citizens in a representative democracy. That means the laws that create copyright a particular way can and will change to meet the will of the majority.
Right. All my posts in this thread have been about why we shouldn't change these laws (other than shortening the duration of copyright, getting rid of the DMCA, etc). The laws currently state that you don't get to choose who to pay for a copy of a creative work, the copyright holder chooses. In the music industry, many artists choose to sell albums through a record label, so that's who you pay, or you don't get a lawful copy.
The record companies don't give a crap about the artists (when they say they do, I find it more offensive than kiddy porn), they care about maximizing profits.
Correct. They're venture capitalists. They're supposed to just care about the profit. It's their job.
If the record companies won't respond to market pressure (i.e. "people won't pay us, we'd better lower prices"), then we will decide *IF* we want to pay.
You can decide if you want to pay, but if you don't then you don't get a copy. We've decided as a society to give creators the sole right to make copies of their work. If you disagree with that, then you should try to get the laws changed. Admittedly, that would be pretty difficult, especially since lobbyists bribe legislators. My point is that the notion of intellectual property should exist, because it leads to more works being created.
The record companies have twisted copyright beyond all comprehension. So the consumer has decided who he will pay. Nobody.
Good. Protesting against unjust laws is the way to get them changed. What you don't seem to understand is that protesting involves sacrifice. That means you live without the works put out by the record companies and support artists who agree with you.
You will fall.
I find it odd that many people in this thread are referring to the record companies in the second person. You should probably check out my posting history or Google my email address.
It would be a big mistake to assume that the Hong Kong Boy Scouts Association and the Boy Scouts of America are related. Yes, they fall within the same blanket organization of Scouts, but the two really don't have any concrete influence over each others' policies or programs. I know it makes good copy, but it should be underscored this isn't the BSA.
As for the commenter who made the comment about the BSA being gay-friendly, hardly. They fought all the way to the Supreme Court to defend what they felt was their right to exclude gays from leadership positions. (Not that i agree in any way, shape or form with that fight -- in fact, I was aghast.)