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The Unemployed Working on OSS Projects
Roger_Explosion writes "In Australia the unemployed have to fulfill a 'mutual obligation' requirement in order to receive welfare payments. What this means is that recipients of welfare payments have to be involved in some sort of activity that improves their chances of finding employment. Until now this has included various types of community service and training and education programs. Recently an organisation called CommunityCode has been established to allow recipients to fulfill this requirement by contributing to OSS projects."
It sure beats community service. I've long maintained that the way to learn to code is by coding. As someone who does hiring into programming positions, I know I would look highly at someone who spent his downtime working on OSS projects.
Bludgers is such a great word
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
If I were to be unemployed, this is exactly what I would do! Imagine having all this spare time (since you have no job) to work on any OSS project you want.
Having said that, the dole (what we call welfare here) is pretty low. I think its about 100USD a week? (for all those US people ou there)
Can your karma go above being Excellent?
Stoners and dole bludgers, what wonderful code they will create!
Remember, it takes 42 muscles to frown and only 4 to pull the trigger of a sniper rifle.
What happens when the aussie economy does better with a legion of state sponsored oss programmers? Awesome!
however, I think that if you make it mandatory (no idea if tfa says either way) then I think this could create some very serious damage to any open source unlucky enough to get coerced 'help'.
also, bear in mind that before you drool over the prospect of conscripts to do the grunt work in X.org or kde that any program worthwhile would probably allow them to choose which projects to help out in; and if they all decide that the best way to spend their time is to develop and perfect a tcl front end to cdrecord, that's their choice.
Frankly, I'd prefer that OSS help remain completely voluntary. Getting half-hearted help is worse than getting no help at all.
I work in the Government Department that manages that Mutual Obligation policy and the main programmes around it. But I'm just an average public servant with an interest in IT - not a programmer or IT professional.
Since they're ask for help from people who are experienced in dealing with our Department, maybe this is a way I can properly contribute to an OSS project for the first time.
I would be surprised to see many takers for this scheme here. The IT job market is on the way up in Australia, we actually have a coding skills shortage. If you are thinking of getting involved, please look for a job instead.
Maybe they can hire some of our unemployed (pre-India) tech workers.
I think it's brilliant, but I don't think it'd be too long before some software consortium/lobby group/group of "concerned citizens" pulls out the whole "don't use government resources to promote the anti-competitive forces of OSS" argument. I'd bet you can expect to see legislation drafted within a year.
Mutual Obligation has always been about punishment, not improving work prospects - unless the government knows there will soon be a massive demand for fence painters and tree planters.
Centrelink: so what jobs have you applied for in the last two weeks?
You: None, but i've been working on CommunityCode.org doing OSS development.
Centrelink: what?
You: I've been doing free software work to get experience and stay a productive member of society.
Centrelink: That's all well and good but I've got a job available at a chicken slaughterhouse I think you should apply for.
Groan.
Yet another blogger begging for an audience.
The problem with this idea is that you will get the lower possible quality workmanship from the majority of people who contribute. Anybody who's ever done mandatory community services (and didn't get paid) can vouch that their heart wasn't in it. This might sound "fun" to an unemployed geek, but the quality of work is going to be signficantly lower than, say, somebody who WANTS to write OSS.
So these people are out of work and can possibly implement OSS as a benefit to their community and therefore collect unemployment? Are you kidding me?
Perhaps if they were employees of a gov program that got cut that would make sense, but why would we start paying those that jumped on the high risk bandwagon 80% of their salary. I know a lot of slashdotters are going to be upset at that, but give me a break! Be compoetetive.
IT work means a lot of different things to diff people. I'm interested to see how it goes. If I can influence further changes I will.
It's like all the negative of outsourcing without the positive of improving someone else's economy.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,15 083420%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html
I want you to get to the guts of this algorithm.
I want you to get to the guts of this...
Can you run that server headless? ... headless?
Can you run that
I've just found the shell!
Bill Gates is pushing for more H1-B's, even with the US computer engineer unemployment rate higher than the national average (which is the real reason colleges are seeing fewer apply for CS degrees). Beware Bill and every other software company out there, if the US ever followed suit. They might just get paid by the state to code your competition.
:D
I wish I could fill out an application to be an (oxymoron) paid/unemployed OSS worker.
Cleaning the net one sed at a time! s/sex/sermons/; s/hot/holy/; s/goats/thebible/; www.holysermonswiththebible.com
"Recently an organisation called CommunityCode has been established to allow recipients to fulfill this requirement by contributing to OSS projects."
Well hey! Why not have prisoners work on OSS? They have plenty of time on their hands.
Let's get all the homeless coding software that benefits society. That would give a new definition to "hidden workforce" and "underground economy". Of course, Bill Gates would have a problem with this if they're not programming for Windows and the Almighty Dollar. There is a difference between communism and capitalism.
Because what's better than a nation of exiled convicts? A nation of unemployed construction workers writing libfetchporn 0.9, that's what.
So let's put some more people out of work, huh?
As a small business developer, I would love this sort of thing.
Quite often it's very hard to get people to do some work without forking out large amounts of money and you're not always sure about the end results (I've had some really terrible code handed in by contractors - worse than even mine).
I have quite a handful of projects, all openSource which would definately gain from this sort of interaction.
Paul.
Because they (the bosses) can see the quality of the work you've done for another project, so then they can pay you to do their project.
It's not like every possible piece of software in the world is an OSS project. Someone may want something different.
When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
I wouldn't mind being payed to live a VERY simple life and work on OSS projects that would benefit many. Many countries already have programs where they pay individuals to keep traditional arts alive (Chine/Japan) or keep ancient religion traditions alive (Isreal), so why not keep code alive?
If you're willing to give it away for free why would anyone bother hiring you to do it for money?
Uh... because then you'd work on the projects they want you to work on and they could make money off of the result.
It's an interesting perspective to take. At the very least, though, I think that any argument along those lines would have to be weighed out against arguments that:
Without more information I don't know how much credibility these arguments have, but I think they'd need to be considered.
..some people I know on the dole (welfare) who fulfill their obligation by fragging each other (in whatever LAN game is popular currently) for a day a week. I mean, come on, are they practicing to be game testers or what?
It's the programmers that Microsoft rejects that will make OSS the best.
It seems that the comments thus far have been centered around the idea that the unemployed are being forced to work on OSS. I think it is more the idea that working on OSS is an acceptable form of community service and the like. I don't think that the arguments against the idea because of the lack of volunteering hold much water because of this. Those who choose to work on OSS to fulfill their community service responsibilities would be just as much volunteers as the rest of the OSS community. It's no different from an OSS person putting their development onto their resume. It's just using the volunteer work on the software for dual purpose.
Could the volunteers write documentation, design web sites, graphics etc. There is a lot more to an OSS Project than just the pure code!
Noviota.
De Novo. Iota.
Starting Afresh. Very Small.
I think it's worth considering that for any company that produces closed source commercial software, there will probably be many others that could benefit from and improve their productivity with good open source software, but can't necessarily afford to pay for the developers themselves, nor the commercial counterparts.
Before jumpling to conclusions that it's state-sponsored competition, I think that this angle should be considered. The economy is made of more than just the commercial software production industry, just as the IT industry encompasses more than simply commercial software development.
Is this worth state sponsorship? Perhaps, or perhaps not, or maybe it's at the very least a good place for interested people to be while they're between paid work, as the article suggests.
Keep in mind that contributing to OSS while on a benefit doesn't release someone from their obligations of getting off the benefit, nor should it. It does give the appropriate people an activity in which they can maintain their skills whilst they're looking for other work. I think this organisation is mostly trying to formalise it, to make it a credible and understood activity for government agencies.
If this goes anything like other 'innovative' work for the dole schemes I've seen, I given them about 3-4 weeks before they realise they are actually losing cash and that it's not nearly as easy as it sounds. For example, you can't fire someone at all. This won't really work if you give this person access to hack at the code every day even after the relationship has long since gone sour. Aaron
It's OK Bender, there's no such thing as 2.
DUPE! not even gonna bother to look for the link
_ In Egypt Networks: Network Solutions with a Twist
I know that I would have jumped at the chance to have work on OSS code count towards my Mutual Obligation. Instead I got sent to bloody JobClub and learned how to use MS Word and write a resume...
The goal of the project was to provide cheap (free) hardware and software to underprivledged people in Australia. We used Debian for single installs, and the KDE wm.
It was a fantastic experience - I learnt all about the insides of computers and how to put them together, com ports, (seemingly) thousands of types of cards (video, audio, nics) and how to configure them, etc etc - all common knowledge ot people here, but you need to start somewhere...
We started a project to give thin clients away to poorer groups (libraries/community groups/refugee action collectives or whatever) which we built from the ground up using common knowledge and the wonderful xserver. I think they have since expanded the project, but now use Mandrake/driva.
A lot of the forced vollies didn't want to be there, but for those of us that did, it was great - I spent my first month testing printers, mice, speakers and doing the last check on systems going out the door...
There are plenty of these things around, and it sure beat weeding public gardens....
"You see sir, if you fire me, I'll still get paid to work on a FREE product that will compete with yours."
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
That's the key..."do their project". As an OSS programmer, you do what interests you. If someone want's to divert that interest to a project of their own, so be it...at which point the expectation of payment is not unreasonable.
I can see it now...
1. OSS developers write custom management/accounting software for Welfare Program.
2. Welfare department welcomes cutomized management/accounting software with open arms (after all, they *sponsored* software).
3. OSS developers exploit a secret, built-in backdoor system
4. PROFIT!!!
No ???? needed
This OSS idea is the first time I've heard of people who have to "work for the dole" actually receiving beneficial tasks to getting a new job. The government likes to choose degrading jobs such as "paint this toilet until the paint bucket is empty." Not untily you've finished. If you finish and the buckets only half empty, guess what you're doing. You're repainting the wall.
You don't need to degrade dole workers. Sheeesh. Because those who make a career out of it, just won't care. Whereas those who honestly can't find a job, will hate the system even more.
Nuff said?
Let me tell you something and any out of work IT guys out there. I wanted a change, had been doing administration and engineering for about a decade. Was burnt. Because truth be told, while I am a die hard geek, my geekiness was never tottally on the administration side of things or on the engineering side of things. I've never been laid off or fired from a job, so I am definetly competent, I'm just not a guru when it comes to administration or engineering.
Writing had always been something I'd enjoyed and was good at(No, I don't do my best work on slashdot, so if you judge me by this post, you're an embicile). Anyways, I jumped on several different Open Source projects to do documentation. Not going to say which ones, I'm a proud anon cow, but it paid off.
Now I work at home, charge 90 bucks an hour, and have 3 of the top ten biotechs in this country(US) as clients. I don't have a college degree either. If you're good, this route will payoff. It will showcase how good you are. If you're some guy whose only motivation is to make good money, good luck chump.
I was never outstanding as an administrator or an engineer, but I'm a literary gangsta when it comes to technical writing. I'm in demand, India is not a threat to me(heh, good luck competing with my english skills India!). I found what I loved, what I excelled at, a way to exploit my innate nerd nature and technical understanding and I have never been happier.
My advice to many IT guys out there, including American IT guys who have not really found that niche they really shine in, is to try various hats in an open source project. They need more than coders, always remember that. Start at sourceforge, look through the jobs, and look for something that matches your interests. Don't look for software projects that you want to use, that isn't the way. Look at the positions available, and think deeply about what you enjoy doing most. A lot of help is needed.
It paid of for me and I think a lot of good geeks out there who have been trying to go a route that doesn't quite let their natural inherent skills shine, might be able to find where their niche is, like I did.
God bless Open Source. Communism/Socialism my ass. It's work baby and if you're a born capitalist like me, you can make it pay.
I'm glad to see on their web site that the program is open for 'any Free Software'. If it ever turned into an arrangement where you had to work on the projects they suggested, I'd have a real problem with it. If you were an Aussie company and wanted some software developed on the cheap, you'd just fire all of your developers. They'd be forced by Centrelink onto the work for the dole scheme, and end up doing your software development for you at $4/hour or whatever the effective rate is for the 'mutual obligation' scheme.
The work for the dole system has lots of potential to be misused. It's a good thing we can trust our government to only ever do good things...
if (unemployed) {
dole = dole * 2;
}
printPayslip();
Free Firefox news reader.
If you're out of work, volunteering is one of the options for keeping your resume and skills up to date and staying involved in the workforce. Nobody is forcing you to do it, but it's the sensible thing to do.
i'd be making more money off the dole to do more of what i enjoy than i do now...
(heh, good luck competing with my english skills India!)
They were a part of the British Empire as well, you know.
damn i wish i could get a job programming.. i've got a degree (not in arts either in math/physics) and cant even get a job a woolies night stacking... I think you're thinking of the situation about 5 years ago when you could get a job "admining" a "windows server" with no qualifications
i'll be doing more doing this than i am at my current job!!!
actually i would probably rather pickup needels in the cross than the crappy work-for-the-dole that is foisted on you in hurstville.... you wouldnt believe.... your choice of
1) walking tours of the local district
2) "design" some crappy "web page" in a group
i think i'd learn more pulling bongs and watching tv
what about rsync
And thus not able to be licensed/protected under GNU? Or is Gov=PD just a USA phenomenon?
I hope they also include options for writing documentation and proof-reading.
That is an area that is often lacking in OSS projects.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Like others, I would question your logic here...
I developed open source for free, got my name known, prove my skills and I'm now getting paid to develop Open Source for money...
Am I making as much as I did when I was contracting before? Well, I'm not far off... Am I working on stuff that I actually like and would want to use (and more importantly, be able to)? You bet.
Free distribution does not imply that there's no money involved...
Wondering how many techs that are out of work are also self employed as well as having dignity to not collect unemployment even if they have the ability or are self employed.
--- Old Time NeXThead
"While calling someone from Brazil, Panama, or Paraguay "American" would indeed be technically correct, citizens of those and other nations on the North & South American continents (in my personal experience) don't readily refer to themselves as "Americans", and you'd probably get strange looks naming them such."
>>if you judge me by this post, you're an embicile
An 'embicile'?
Yes. I see.
...if you can't get a very well paying job as a programmer in australia at the moment then you must be a technical moron who shouldn't be let anywhere near a computer or open source software. Companies are experiencing a massive skills shortage over here at the moment...the only people this is going to attract are morons that think they can get out of doing manual labour...and that means crap code.
What a wank
Mutual Obligation (aka work for the dole) is a system where after a certain time on unemployment payments, (note: disability and old age pensions are also "welfare"), the recipient must either, volenteer for a govt approved position or enrol in govt approved education (the govt then counts you as a student so thier unemployment figures look better). If a recipient does not comply then payments are curtailed or cut off. The idea is to give you some basic skills to make you more employable, it is not intended as punishment for being out of work. As far as I know picking up rubbish is NOT an approved activity.
Community service is a system where a court orders a petty criminal to do something unpleasant, like picking up rubbish from the roadside. The idea is that work is more equitable than fines. If you screw it up the court can inflict further punishment (eg: jail time).
"Dole bludger" is a derogatory term for someone who recieves unemployment payments, commonly used by self-rightous morons, right-wing politicians and current affairs reporters. All of whom have never had the soul destroying experience of dealing with a Centerlink office.
Centerlink does not run the work-for-the-dole program it is simply there to fuck up your payments and conduct endless "interviews" where they ask the same questions over and over again (eg: Are you having sex with your flatmate?). The irony of Centerlink is that it keeps thousands of unemployable busy bodies off the dole by giving them the job of handing it out.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
no it's not PD, not in AU anyway. For example, the Autralian Taxation Office has TONS of custom software (ie. the cobol stuff that runs the countrys tax system) that is all regarded as "secret" by the organisation.
This is more a get rich quick sceme by its "mentors". Work for the dole scemes are ment to have positive outcomes which include a % of the participants gaining employment and they are funded by the federal government. I don't see this helping anyone but the people running it. You require the skills and the equipement to be involved, and you do it from home. The mentors only guide you and check the code before they submit it to the appropriate places.
Why not combine their shit together and make cheap software. The only problem with shareware and closed-source is that all these big companys are using jewish accountants and they are being greed jacking up the price 800% over value. Switch them out and you will have cost-effective software worth the money you throw at it.
So these people are out of work and can possibly implement OSS as a benefit to their community and therefore collect unemployment? Are you kidding me?
Perhaps if they were employees of a gov program that got cut that would make sense, but why would we start paying those that jumped on the high risk bandwagon 80% of their salary. I know a lot of slashdotters are going to be upset at that, but give me a break! Be compoetetive.
IT work means a lot of different things to diff people. I'm interested to see how it goes. If I can influence further changes I will.
You know, you clearly talk english but I don't have an idea what the hell you are talking about. There has to be some meaning, some logic but I just can't find it. Was the text created by ELIZA or other kind of bot? Is this a Turing test?
Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
Hell yeah, and if the australian government is already going this far they may as well step in that tiny bit further and control the coding-related jobs, ensuring that no judaism fucks with the process of bringing decent software to those who need it at a cost they can manage.
have or are willing to learn the skills to work in software development?
opensource and australia .. way to go !!
Chris ,
Php Programmers.
I am offering http://www.geocities.com/totierne/FreeTuition.html . Aside from the code for dole aspects, how do novice programmers become productive OSS coders. I have 10 years commercial experience, I intend to get newbies started on mini projects and familier with tools (CVS, wiki, mailing lists, python/java/c++) and then get them connected to more established projects, what is the route/jump from newbie to productive submitter, and does the way need to be signposted?
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
This is bad!
It degrades the value of programming work AND it degrades the value given on OSS.
Imagine this....
Programmers will be analogous to dole bludgers.
Programming OSS will be analogous to community service work.
I have to say that I know one of the guys (Matt Palmer) behind this project, haven't seen him for ages but he has the know how and passion to see this project through.
I can't wait to see it in action, a change from the norm thats for sure.
Seriously, I've been laid off since Nov. 29th. (I start a new job on Monday...YAY!). But, I've been putting in 40-60 hour days everyday (with the exception of a few days when it was REALLY nice out).
Not only have a really made progress on GnosisLIMS (which I've been working on for years), but I was also able to create a useful tool for managing my email when I'm way from my desk (Flex-mn).
It was very useful for answering the standard "so what have you been doing during your time off other than watching TV" interview question.Myddrin
I do not see why any young American would want to stay in America....Why not invest your future in a country where the wealth is shared more equally? Anyone with a tech or science degree and who is younger than 45 can move there.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
You don't see any difference between doing something and getting paid for it, and doing something and NOT getting paid for it.
You must be living with your parents....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Anyway, people on income assistance usually don't have a lot of free time for hobbies like OSS projects. Between applying for jobs, doing employment programs, and doing whatever casual labour the ministry manages to throw your way, the jobless in BC are actually kept pretty busy.
but why can't we have something like this here in the United States? Oh, wait, that's right, Bush is in office...
The Mutual obligation component is only a minor requirement and I AM NOT GOING AWAY!
I am looking towards assisting motivated people working on FOSS. If you think we we tolerate time wasters you are wrong, we are volunteers and we can simply stop providing the Mutual Obligation sign off for the slackers. It is mainly for FOSS developers who would like their time on FOSS acknowledged as mutual obligation under the AU goverment rules.
If you are fully employed and want help starting. We will help you.
If you would like more people involved in your project. Offer to be a mentor. We are actively canvassing not worker bees but the queen bees who will help all the worker bees. We need your help!
What I gain out of this is a better system. If I activate 10 programmers 1/2 as good as me that is 5 me's working on my favourite systems. This is FOSS at it's finest, enable the masses to work on it.
If there are people who are hardware challenged who need help with hardware we can suggest how to gain access to hardware. You do not need the latest and greatest hardware to contribute. A P100 may be slow but it will work. Programmers with time limits and a pay check may not bother but if you are motivated then you can do amazing things. Who is better to optimise a system someone with a dual 3gig machine or a single P100 at home? Who is more motivated to fix that performance problem.
Don't think just because you would not work that way that 100's of other do not. I used to take 3 days to compile OpenOffice.org because it was the hardware that I had P350 minum ram. Did I give up?
Get involved.
Activate 100s of new programmers.
Bring new people to FOSS that would not normally consider it.
Get that port of application X to Windows because you have activated a different sort of hackker. Even port applications to new compilers because they have them.
I am not going away and this is supported by Linux all over Australia. We have had and encourage world wide participation. We need mentors.
I SAY AGAIN! We need mentors.
You have to admit that for the last 100 years, ppl who are referred to as "Americans" are known to be from the USA. And it is one of the more common name for us. I do know a number of ppl from Canada, Mexico, Panama, and Brazil who would take it as an insult if you called them an American as they view it as the USA.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Or instead of collecting public money and otherwise coding for free, they could take their code and start a business to support it (and themselves).
I can see the write up in Wired magazine now... "Yeah.. I was on the dole and trying to decide between chicken or beef ramen noodles, but then the IPO came and now I'm trying to decide on which color my yacht will be."
a small group of coders could develop GPL code and then offer support. Some ideas would be tax calculation software or a core library for educational software (handling testing, AI, etc).
This is very similar to what I was trying to get my state to do (the response from the state gov. was most interesting)
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I'm not so sure this is the best thing. I mean its good to have people working on OSS projects, but I think part of what made OSS projects so good was that the people who wrote them really wanted to write them, and make sure they were good. If we have a whole country full of unemployed programmers writing OSS code because they have to (to receive welfare) then that motivation has changed considerably.
I tend to do something much better when I want to rather than when I have to. Math is a perfect example. I hated calculus, not because it was hard, but because it was tedious. I loved vector math because I used that to do OpenGL programming and made some really cool interactive scenes. Result: a better grade in graphics (vector math) than in calculus.
Motivation is a powerful thing, and hopefully the quality of the work they do isn't undermined by their desire (or need) for money.
And they said zombies weren't real!
In soviet america, it seems that anyone who meets the barest of requirements qualifies for social programs aimed at giving them money for no work. How often are these recipients given an ultimatum, "work or you won't get a check"; or "You will receive this for six months. If you don't have a job by then, tough," ????
Really, having requirements is a good thing, and proving this type of option is great, I think, for programmer types that wouldn't survive working at McDonalds.
I am unemployed, I am working/testing different projects. Give me money. Hehe. That is awesome. Will program for food.
---- Berlin Brown http://www.newspiritcompany.
This is a mutual obligation where you volunteer to help the community.
We are also mentors to get others started on FOSS development.
Work for the dole is complicated to set up and requires to much paperwork to be effective. We would also be assign all sorts of people. We only work with people who volunteer to work with us.
The chorus of "How come you can't get off your lazy butt and get a paying job to do that!" would be deafening.
There are a number of reasons that people are not employed. It took me 7 years to get my first serious computer job. I had the skills but no business application. FOSS now gives you this, want a reference from an experienced programmer, work with me and I can give you one.
If you are over 40 and out of work then there is a 'young industry' problem. People who are that old are obviously not useful, let's hire a young grad they are cheaper. You will take the same? Why you are more qualified than that, must be something wrong with you.
Employment is not always as balck and white as people paint it.
Note I am fully employed and have been for 20 years. I am just fully aware of the situation for other people. I am also aware that I am 40 and this is a glass ceiling for our industry.
If you're some guy whose only motivation is to make good money, good luck chump.
Obviously you're payed for your social skills.
Never said I was in it JUST for the money. I said if you give something away for free you tend to devalue it.
I'm as sick of all this socialist BS as I am of captialist IP law crud. Why oh why is there no happy medium? Either you have to give everything away for free and make sure anyone could take over the work and put you out of a job, or you have to make money your only goal. BS. Utter BS.
A model where people out of work do work for nothing is not sustainable. Do you think you're going to get to pick what you do when your social security cheque is tied to it? All of a sudden, people are willing to do hard work for peanuts and you're not making much more than the poor bastard in India that has to call himself Russel so that he can take your freaking support calls for your piece of shit laptop.
Do you honestly think that because you're good enough and fortunate enough to have the opportunity to move to something you actually enjoy that every person out there can do similar. Watch office space and listen to the line about what you'd do if you had a million dollars. "If everyone did what they wanted no body would be out there to pick up shit".
Why does this opinion make me a troll? Why on earth are you attacking me you saddistic narrow minded fool? How do you know why I'm in IT? How dare you get so personal as to claim to know my mind. If I insist on being paid for my hard work, why does that mean it's my only motivation for doing the work? No. It's a strong motiviation and an important one. Last time I checked you need money to live and more money to prosper. You wouldn't be writing crap like this if you couldn't afford net access and a machine. No one's going to pay for your kid's education or that life saving operation one of them needs just because you're some sort of philanthropist.
Slashdot has gotten so that every narrow minded loser teenage sheep and burnt out has-been jaded social misfit shouts down an idea without even considering it. If you don't tow the slashdot party line be prepared to be called a troll. This place disgusts me sometimes.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
If you're involved in a couple of high profile Open source projects it looks good on your resume.
The person responsible for hiring you can see exactly how well you code, which along with making a good impression in your interview will convince that person that you know what you are doing.
Think about this also, if you need to hire someone good, what sets them apart from the crowd? Certs? No. H1B? No. This person worked on the linux kerenel? Wow, call him in for an interview, now.
Because they (the bosses) can see the quality of the work you've done for another project, so then they can pay you to do their project.
A small number of well known people perhaps get these opportunities. No one I've worked with got their job through doing open source work. I've worked at large and small consultancies, banks and building societies. A large number of the opportunities in this country (Australia) are in these areas.
For the record I've released small snippets of stuff myself. I will not go about coding a whole project for no pay. Most people who do this either burn out in a handful of years or find someone to sponsor and pay for their work. Otherwise, unless you're well off to begin with, you're insane.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Please read my reply to parent, and other replies.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Have you been forgetting to take your medication again?
You could soon have an abundance of programmers to work on OSS.
http://whynot.net/
The important thing is not to stop questioning --Albert Einstein.
Not everyone is a programmer, those roles will be filled, in case you were nervous about it.
When I was unemployed, working on OSS projects gave me a purpose. After spending hours a day for nine months and slipping into depression, OSS gave me a new purpose, and a hope. I was keeping my skills sharp. I was contributing to the community. I had a reason to get up in the morning. OSS kept me sane when I thought I was going to go nuts.
I'm not a troll, but I play one on Slashdot.
In Soviet Russia we used to call that Communist Saturdays. You basically worked on Saturday for no compensation. Of course you had the cozy feeling that you are "building" the country.
I'm probably naive, not living there to see the problems, but I am impressed with the welfare law. As a conservative, I prefer private charity, but the Mutual Obligation feature of AU state charity sounds like it captures the true spirit of constructive charity (as opposed to tying dole payments to the number of illegitimate children like we did here in the states until recently). When providing private charity to an individual, that is exactly the expectation I have. It also reflects the successful stories of private charity passed down from the Great Depression.
"Unemployed working on OSS projects"??? Come on... If they were employed, they'd be working on Windows.
Unless you live in Manhattan. Everything you buy in either country is made by the same Chinese guy. You notice petrol though - it's much cheaper in the Sates, but then the call it 'Gas'.
I guess they probably call gas 'plasma'.
In Colorado to collect unemployment you have to show that you applied for ten jobs in a two week period. Usually you just hand in a list of email addresses you mailed a resume to
Only on slashdot with OSS supporters would we think anything a wellfare state does is good!
Evil Man
Certain once-large organizations have shed a lot of (and will soon shed all ) folks around here, and others are threatening to do the same. Not surprising, since RTP has been so telecom-centric, and unlike Silicon Valley, concentrates its employment base in a handful of large companies (vs. gajillions of startups).
The upshot is that there are a lot of unemployed techies around here who need re-training. Enter TechEngage. The proposition is simple: if you're unemployed, you get to attend a certain number of classes for free (or close to it), and in return, you donate 40 hours of your time to the cause.
I really wish the public sector would wake up to this effort. Oh, sorry, that would be socialist. Can't have that. Unless of course you're an unemployed textile worker in the western part of NC, without even a high-school diploma. Then our state legislature bends over for you, even though you could never contribute as much to the tax base once employed (grumble)..
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
Remember, kids.. when you're programming OSS.. you're programming COMMUNISM.
Just imagine how many of these coders would have real, paying jobs if markets where OSS has taken over were open to proprietary products..
(before the trolls come in.. what I mean is markets are essentially closed to proprietary software - IE those markets would be unprofitable - because of free alternatives.. unless you're Microsoft, you can't really compete with free.. )
I am the maverick of Slashdot
In the US it varies by state, and in Minnesota it was for six months.
There used to be a 3-month federal extension, but to my knowledge it hasn't been renewed.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Hiring at US$7.50/hr to do helpdesk support for Windows for old ladies with their dialup Internet. Must have 10 years of experience with Windows XP, IIS, Dell servers, and know how to fix our fucked-up Exchange server. Must be able to communicate the most absolutely complex and detailed computing concepts to people who don't care, and just want their email to work. Must have prior IT and management experience, even though you'll be the only one in the building that does any work at all. Must be familiar with different sized pieces of paper, and not get freaked out by them, printed or not. Please reply with a cover letter, resume in WORD format, salary requirements, and how soon you'll move to some ass place that nobody's ever heard of.
Fuck That Job Dotcom
recruiter-rater
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
Most job hunters (at least in the US) are finding themselves excluded well before being contacted by an actual human.
Companies seem to be looking for exact matches, and explicit experience in both a specific tech and a specific line of business is often a hard requirement before they'll even consider talking to you.
(This is based on my recent 32-month-long unemployment stint in the Minneapolis area as well as lengthy conversations with many others who were [or still are] in the same situation).
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Most open source projects are being damaged from lack of development. Most of sourceforge is dead projects.
;)
Most open source projects would benefit from any development, even bad development would attract attention - which would mean QA-ing and fixing the bad code and attracting good coders to the project. People ignore projects (on sourceforge and elsewhere) where nothing is happening. No one wants to be the only coder or one of a very few on a project apparently no one cares enough about to support or to recruit programmers for.
If an open source project is viable enough where new code could actually do more harm than good (i.e. it is viable enough to be harm-able) then it has enough safeguards against bad code harming the project that it isn't too big a concern. Bad code doesn't get into Linux (unless it is from one of the big names on the project - but that is the subject of another post - and I don't want a Flamebait mod on this one.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
Open collaboration so obviously wins!
Bavarian Purity Law of Rice Krispie Squares: Rice Krispies, Marshmallows, Butter, Vanilla.
...because the political leaders have assured us there is no one more patriotic than the mega corporations who are laying of local citizens in droves. Why? Because they are the true embodiment of the capitalist dream!
So all the reams of skilled people who are no longer employed should feel *proud* that they are part of that dream! You are the wind beneath our wings! And if this results in OSS then only a communist would fight OSS.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr. Gates!
In a related story: Perth Zoo has announced the grand opening of it's new OSS Development Center. Based in the Primate House, the Center will...
I personally am unemployed. I'm 21 and was picked up as a programmer as soon as I left school. I worked in the same job for afew years and the company ended up going down the plug. So now I am left without qualifications (admittedly I should have studied a course while working but hindsight is 20-20) and am now waiting for uni enrolments to start again. However for 6 months I worked on F/OSS software for non profit organisations and loved it, I am going back to volunteer. It was 3 days a week 7-8 hours a day and lead a project working on a small scalable linux distribution (trinix based) and a set of low level tools to make things run that bit better on lower end machines. This is what I would have done whilst sitting at home, except recognised on a wider scale whilst giving me some stuff for my resume. It's a good arrangement IMO.
Looks like OZ is taking this old joke literally.
-------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.
This is a fantastic idea for software engineers. Employers want to know what your work is like. Usually people work proprietary code which is not available to prospective employers and they just have to take your word for it. Working on an open source project means that your prospective employer can download the code, compile it, run it and see how you did it. They can get a 100% accurate idea of what you are capable of. I've looked for work two times in previous years and both times I've pointed my prospective employer at open source code that I've written. Both times I have done this with clued-in employers (the ones that you would like to work for) I've had a job offer within a week. Open Source code rocks!
It's now welfare supported!
:)
Man that is a funny
This actually MAKES OSS communist!
It is now paid for by welfare!!!!!
We have "In Korea, old men...", "in Soviet Rusia the * * you", now we're going to begin hearing "In Australia" jokes.
I thought bending over for the soul-less mega corporations was our public duty. If they decide to can our jobs it only follows that being unemployed is an act of patriotism.
What about contamination? Some employers may not look favoribly on your open-source work becaus they will be worried about GPL code showing up in their products (either intentionally or unintentionally).
I know that when I was going to get source access to some Microsoft code I had to agree to not even look at any open-source code whether it was related to the Microsoft code or not.
not that it really matters. --- "you can hang from the right or the left, I don't care, justs top swingin' from my nuts"
the only permanence in existence, is the impermanence of existence.
...just get rid of the welfare part.
In corporate America it is not going to help.
So, you are unemployed looking for a job. That is bad. Now you want to do something with OSS. You polish your skills, come up with something new while hoping that you'll get a job. What you don't understand that you're still nobody in a corporate world. You have better skills, but, guess what, the rest of the world will acquire those skills as well. If you're not willing to work for less, then you'll be replaced again. Go start working on another OSS project. Software engineers are quite common these days. Corporations will outsource and find workers willing to work for the lowest possible wage. As one CEO said, "...The problem with Asia is not the price, it's the fact that they [Indians, Chinese] can't work for free."
You can study and do whatever you want; however, as soon as there is somebody else who is willing to do the same for less money, you're out. Nobody gives a flying fuck if you are an OSS contributor or a genius if you don't fit the price tag. One of my friends is desperately looking for development gigs online. He found himself competing with Indians who are willing to work for less than $10/hr. Unless he lowers his price, he can't really work.
The sooner you realize your pathetic state, the better off you'll be. Instead of doing something that the rest of the world can do, try something new. Whatever you do, make sure that you have skills that are not related to IT. That will increase your chance of survival.
Go to school while unemployed here (USA) is viewed as not looking for a job.
So much for improving your chances of being productive...
Yes, some people can pick things up quite quickly.
A case in point: The only work I was able to get (in roughly the middle of my unemployment) was on a platform I'd never even seen before (Unisys A-series mainframe box), but the site was 50-60 miles from the Twin Cities, and the fact that I knew COBOL relatively well on another platform was enough for them to hire me.
That whole situation was an accident, though. I was told by the contracting firm that the client wanted a Unisys 2200 programmer, and as far as I could tell (after the fact) the client was told that I was an A-series programmer.
It was only during the interview that it became apparent that the hiring manager and I were talking completely two different languages when it came to the mainframe environment (A-series boxes use Burroughs MCP, which is VERY different from the OS2200 environment that 2200 boxes use), but on a whim he let me talk to the lead programmer, and it became apparent from looking at the actual code (COBOL 74) that the learning curve wouldn't be very steep.
I was writing code within 3-4 hours of being on site for the first time. COBOL is COBOL even if I dislike the language, and while DMSII was different from SQL or DMS1100, it was similar enough that it didn't take much time to learn enough to be useful.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
This is not a new idea, this company has run a program called LinuXceed since 2002. They sponsored working on open source projects, provided me with a reference and six months later I was working in the datacenter of a major ISP.
h tml
These folks will talk with you, see what your career goals are, and suggest open source projects, or new ones that will help you get there. Its all free. Its company sponsored so it carries more weight with potential employers etc.
http://www.splicednetworks.com/company/linuxceed.
Is economics an exact science?
People manage to do nifty mathematical things in economics research, and that may give the impression that the discipline does involve concrete facts. But economics is more of a soft science--famous for the way any two economists will tend to hold at least three incompatible opinions about any given problem.
That's what is going on here. Every dollar not spent on licenses by a firm is a dollar they can use to hire somebody directly. On the other hand, it is also a dollar not given to a software firm, who then *cannot* pay that dollar to a coder. Is this progress or regress for an economy? And is it progress or regress for a society [which is what we call it, when we are talking about quality of life and not just dollar-flows]?
It's hard to clearly resolve that question one way or the other. The Intellectual Property debate involves exactly the same quandary: The laws that are being pushed do compel people to spend more, increasing the "velocity of money" that makes national GNP statistics look so good. On the other hand, the processes involved are clearly working to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few "winners" who hoard it and do precious nothing to benefit society as a whole.
Those who are disenfranchised by these dollar games are left with precious little access to knowledge or materials to better themselves--and that is precisely why public-access things like libraries and public schooling and this unemployed programmers' guild are good ideas. They let people get around some of the societal distortions caused by government and big-business policy's overemphasis on dollar-denominated measures of value.
I for one welcome any new non-econocentric movements in public policy.
Ok, now I should say something about Gimps/GTKs stability on windows, and it not really being an alternative (on that platform, on Linux/UNIX PS is nop), HOWEVER I don't use Windows (only use that for "special" development) so I can't really say that (besides, I don't wear an asbestos suit), I could only give you hersay about the stability/usabilty....but You probably know more about that than I do.
I could give you another example though!!
BIBBLE!!
It really kicks a**!!
It's expensive ($69 for Linux), but I *think* they are selling licenses enough to cover their expenses. The alternative (on Linux) should be UFRaw.
On windows there are free as in beer alternatives but bibblelabs seem to survive anyhow...
I don't know what the Oz job market is like, but if you can't get a job, then why? Surely the best programmers have no problems finding a job. Does this mean that the average quality of OSS programming will decline?
Engineering is the art of compromise.
They should treat software engineers like farmers. Which in the EU, have for years been paid to produce products no one wanted..... so come on intervention software.... And if we start to produce to much of the code.... they could always pay us to set-a-side our old machines and get paid if we promise not to plug them in......... So lets campaing for grants, which we can farm....
If one has been on the dole so long that one has developed a mental disorder &/or become a drug addict, one can then get about AU$600 (I s'pose about US$470) a fortnight on the Oz disability pension, including rental assistence, the pharmacuetical benefit & the pensioner education supplement.
The dole is a little less than a straight pension without the added rental assistence, the pharmacuetical pension or the PES ontop.
They might live in bloody Cambelltown, Maquarie Fields or Bidwell & have a phobia about trains.
...of a pickup truck pulling up onto this dirt field populated by raggedy clothed blodgers. Guy gets out of the pickup truck, and hollers: I need some coders! Some Linux guys!
A bunch of hands come up!
"Ok! You! You! You! You!" (until he leaves about five) "5 bucks an hour and some soup! Get in the back!" (They board the pickup.)
"I need some WIndows guys too!"
Other fewer hands reluctantly come up.
To the ones that didn't raise their hands, he says, "Here's two bux apiece for each of you if you beat those guys up!" At which point they commence pummeling those guys.
blow your dole payments using those fits for long enough & you'll be able to claim the disability pension.
To attract votes from those that listen to Allan Jones, John Laws & Stan what-his-name.
Maybe you're assuming the coding vacancies:available coders ratio in the rest of Oz is the same as it is in Sydney?
Code not good enough to get a real job - so let's put that code into open source projects. Great idea!
If one's not working but one's defacto partner is working, then the official line is that one then becomes a dependent/tax deduction for the working half.
Here in Oz welfare is only officially for singles or for both partners combined in a relationship. Meaning those in relationships are excluded from welfare automatically unless their partner also qualifies for welfare too.
Thus Centrelink's always on the hunt to trackdown clients that it suspects are a bit to lubbydubby with their 'flat mates'
Never said I was in it JUST for the money
That portion of the reply was meant in general, not personally. Had you took it in the entire context, provided your reading comprehension skills afford you that ability, you'd have seen it.
As for the rest of your reply, oh well. The point was, OSS projects have paid off for me and helped me change careers. I didn't mod you down, but I suspect you got modded down because what you said doesn't match reality of what others have experienced. GOOD work on OSS projects are as valid to a potential employer as any other good work.
...think alike. At least, that's what I heard.
.au!
For some months now, I and some others have been busy trying to set up a local organisation where (temporarily) unemployed IT-personel can keep up to date by contributing to OS-projects.
Situated in the the north of the Netherlands, just about the longest distance you can get from
We go one step further though: we want to create a work-like enviorment where volunteers can participate in projects (as in: the staff decides the project, you and max. 9 others do the project at agreed times and at a provided work-location, just like paid work). These projects are Open Source, and can vary from translating help-files to creating a tracking-system for field-mice. (Why field-mice? Because if you can track those, you can track anything: from trucks to railroad-cars. And companies who need tracking will know where to go. As will those who want to implement Open Office in dutch.)
We're just building up. The first, cautious official support is just about coming (We were invited to present ourselves at the isb2005)
Long way to go yet, but by the end of this summer, we'll either be running or burning
David
P.S.
To CommunityCode, I'll try to contact you after next week.
As an Australian, I can't see the government allowing this sort of thing to take off, but I give the project an A+ for creativity and originality. Coding for OSS for work for the dole.
That made my day.
It is, isn't it -- there are more out of work armchair generals on this site than anywhere else. Guaranteed.
Australia? United States? Cyberspace is the size of a pinhead, and as long as the angels dancing on it finish bringing phpPgAdmin to the same state of perfection as phpMyAdmin SOMETIME SOON, I'll be happy.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
All volunteers that want to learn are welcome. If you would like to review the latest OOo documentation on OOo authors then that would meet the criteria without a problem.
I would actually like to cativate more documentors than programmers. This is where we can really excel.
The metric system is taught in schools, but it is not used. Ever.
Silly wacky arbitrary English measurements are just wrong, and impossible to remember. I'd rather be empowered by ease-of-use, than hindered by needless obfuscation.
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.