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Cameras Online? How The Shysters Work
earlylate writes "How do certain photo and electronics dealers thrive despite widely-circulated warnings by unhappy customers? According to a new investigative website "many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run" and "go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management." Further, some comparison-shopping sites "are in effect marketing partners with their affiliates," the very dealers they rate. There's a contest based on the suspicious "flood of similar, glowing reviews some dealers receive," as well as links to several sources of information and advice for the careful online shopper."
A lot of people don't realise the the big "price deal search engines" such as Kelkoo and Dealtime also return results based on the amount the retailers they link to have paid for a higher position. You'll often find you can dig up better deals just using Google. However, I know that at least one of the biggest UK online electronics retailers derives the highest percentage of paying click-throughs from Dealtime (that is, people referred by Dealtime, who then go on to actually buy a product). The Dealtime referrals actually result in more sales than people browsing their site to find stuff. So the idea/scam works well...
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
Don't mess with them... I tried once, it wasn't pretty. I still have to move every couple months so they don't find my location...
This post alone will give me away, I need to move again... but I needed to warn you all!
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Once bought a VCR some years ago. I went into one store and asked for a specific model of a VCR. I was quoted a price, then I went to another store. The clerk for the second store, after receiving my request, spoke into a walkie-talkie in his native language and then quoted me the same price. Now, perhaps it was coincidental, but both clerks appeared to be Indian. I didn't buy the VCR from either store.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
I'd rather pay a little more and know that I'm buying from someone I can trust. So what if I can save a few bucks if I'm not sure I'm going to get exactly what I paid for? Sure I look for deals but it's a matter of balancing that against buying from someone reputable.
Bradley Holt
They made it so I couldn't order online anymore! Don't make them mad!!!
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
If you'd like to volunteer, let me know, I have a great camera I can give you for a low-low price, that would be perfect for the job.
Don't anthropomorphize computers: they hate that.
You mean to say that I shouldn't spend $100s based on the opinions of anonymous and untrusted (to me) sources.
I tell you, I'm shocked.
You'll be telling me next that the editorial in trade newspapers is somehow related to the advertising.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
only because of the fact that there is a sucker born every minute.
I don't think that the number of scams has really increased or anything...the information deluge from the internet makes it seem like there are more scammers now than before. The fact appears to be that in place of one sucker being swindled, now you have 10 suckers being swindled simultaneously.
A fool and his money...yada yada yada.
Here are some interesting pictures of the storefronts
Front doors
When it comes to expensive, and frequently fragile electronics, always buy local. This should be a no brainer. The on-line prices are too good to be true simply because the on-line retailers know they won't have to deal with the customer service part.
Just because you can, does not mean you should.
The unfortunate side effect is that shoppers will be less likely to go to mom and pop online retailers and will stick to the conglomerates. This makes is clear that it is in the best interest of honest online retailers and all those who sell services to them that they need to make a concerted effort to combat online fraud.
http://stockmarketgarden.com/
Never buy your electronics from front stores in the New York City area.
I have heard nothing but bad news about these New York City stores using bait and switch tactics and selling refurbished goods as new. You are better off using Froogle.com or cnet.com and then doing a little reading of the reviews about the sites that came back with the least expensive results.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Henchman, "I say, that scoundrel has surfaced in the United States. Shall we whack him?"
Don Worcestershire, "Quite."
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
I tend to pick a reputable retailer I've already done trade with, and if the price is more than say 10% different I just assume it's a scam and ignore it unless I know someone else personally who's traded with them. Even if the difference is less than 10% I still prefer to buy from companies I or my friends have dealt with. I may miss some good bargains that way, but I've never been scammed...
Game dev and music blog
Not so funny, I'm sure, if you fall for one of their tricks. Just buy for the good ones, seriously, B&H, Adorama, etc... (although I know tons of people have horror stories about both of those, and any other reputable camera dealer).
I had this about 2 years ago, ordered a camera from a place in NYC for a great price, they called to 'confirm the order' and tried to sell me extra batteries, and other stuff...telling me that the stock battery won't last long enough. I said no, they said OK, they never shipped, when I called I got the same runaround, also, not to be racist but I could tell they were arab, but they'd tell me their names were 'Steve' or 'Brad'. I ended up getting yelled at after I called again, and cancelled my order. I contacted my CC card and made sure they didn't/couldn't chage me...but it gave me a bad feeling for ordering online from smaller places. It reminds me of the 419 scams since all the websites look professional - but share similar graphics, you can tell it's a front. Wish I remembered the name of the company, but I'm sure they've swapped names by now. I just went and paid 50$ more thru amazon, and had the new cam in two days.
fak3r.com
I heard the voicemail one of these scumbags left for someone not too long ago. I don't know about others, but I would have had the police online to file charges... These people are scary.
Luckily, they're not the most intelligent people, as the voicemail seems to show. Calling someone a "bitch" repeatedly and threatening to kill them via an easily traced means is just asking for legal trouble. They don't know how to deal with the actual bad publicity they're starting to get. (Ratings sites are not actual bad publicity, since hardly anyone uses them, and there are many different ones).
I have a feeling this sort of scam will disappear in due time. It's getting harder and harder to hide from geeks with net connections and blogs, and bad word of mouth, unlike bad "reviews," is killer for a business. Just think of how many techies you know who refuse to buy a particular brand of hard drive simply for hearing about a friend's bad experience once.
Oh, the rest is a total shameless plug, but we did a bit about this on GeekNights last Thursday.
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
Use common sense. here's what I tell everyone that asks.
1) only buy from reputable sites. this has been going on since computer shopper days. its even more true today.
2) I only use my American Express (AMEX). I can't tell you how many times AMEX has helped with fraudulent charges, merchants that don't deliver etc. AMEX is expensive and a pain in the ass for mechants to sign up. If they are not willing to do that, than I won't buy. I will pay a slight premium for sights that take AMEX. It's worth it.
If I'd done both these when I first got online in the 90s I would have saved myself a lot of grief.
"It's technical in a psychometric kind a way" -- C. Parish
The two I trust:
PriceWatch.com
ResellerRatings.com
Most of those have been around for a long time. and the places with the glowing reviews always feel a bit suspicious when you dig deeper on them.
The fun part is that it highlights something that most people ignore. They will not think twice buying from someon on ebay with a 1000+ rating yet it is really simple to BUY rating points. (hint: search ebay for cupons) If you spend lots of money on something online and the price is too good to be true, be ready to lose your cash.
BTW: if it's less than $1000.00 you are pretty much hosed. I lost $500.00 to a scammer auto parts dealer on the east coast (read my blog for the name and location) and after getting my lawyer poised and finding out how much to bring the small claims suit against them It was much cheaper to simply drop it as it would have cost me $1500.00 to sue him... These scammers know this and that is why they rarely venture over that $1000.00 line.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Digital cameras currently have a very competitive market. Every site has the same models for within a few bucks of each other, pretty close to at-cost, and make it up on supplies (batteries, chargers, SD/XD/sticks/whatever storage medium, docks, printers, straps, cases, and of course the holy grail of ripoffs, the "extended warranty").
When you see a site advertising a given model for $100 to $250 less than everyone else, well, do you really think they plan to take a loss on the camera itself? And even if they did take a small loss (such as at-cost with free shipping), they sure as hell won't sell for less than they can ever dream of making back even if you bought every overpriced accessory they offer.
Just save yourself the trouble and use a reputable dealer like Amazon or NewEgg for any electronics. They usually have close to the lowest price, and factoring in the BS as part of the cost, they almost always win without even a second thought.
I always check http://resellerratings.com/ for some kind of backup. I did buy a camera from 'bait & switch' mob a few years ago, I got it, but it wasn't pleasant. My last online camera purchase was from 'Beach Camera', no problems at all.
Just because your paranoid doesn't really mean they aren't out to get you
To think that in light of this, BestBuy stores seem like a nice place to shop!
I'd never trust a store who couldn't spell "right" correctly anyway. All you Grammar Nazis were right.
Consider that some of the anit-virus look the other way when considering various key loggers.
...it always is. It's a good rule to live by and the same applies offline as much as it does online. I'd rather buy from a trustworthy online store or shop such as Amazon than save a few pounds. The cheapeast is rarely the best, hence why I will never shop with Ebuyer in the UK again. I'd rather pay for customer service I know I can trust than just be fobbed off all the time and ultimately end up out of pocket.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
They all researched the cameras they wanted, and they thought they had adequately investigated the dealers. They saw the full-page ads in major photo magazines, the professionally-designed websites, the high dealer ratings on prominent search-sites. They saw all the trappings of the modern online secure shopping site. They trusted that their credit card companies, the respected magazines, and even the states which are home to the merchants, would help ensure a good transaction. And, of course, the prices were hard to resist. Why were our friends ultimately disappointed?
We took a look at some of the factors and some of the businesses involved, and we offer the information we've found to all who are considering purchasing cameras, video equipment and electronics from the comfort of their living rooms and offices.
This website is a partial scorecard. We hope it will help readers understand who some of the better-known dealers are, what's behind the ads and websites, and how to find further information.
We believe that open information benefits both consumers and dealers. We think the whole photographic industry -- hobbyists, professionals, dealers and manufacturers -- is healthier when consumers have clear idea of how to research a transaction and whom they will be dealing with.
We've tried to make these pages accurate. All the information included is from public sources. If you know of any errors, please inform us and we will correct them at once. If you have further information you think we should be aware of, contact us. (Please -- no rumors or speculation; only confirmable facts.)
Our contact details are here.
WELL KNOWN DEALERS
We have examined some of the online dealers who specialize in cameras and electronics, looking behind the ads and websites to find out who they are and how they do business. We chose some of the most visible companies -- the ones with heavy national advertising and prominent ranking on internet search engines. Many of them have sprung up in the last few years, while some have been around online and in traditional stores for decades.
Judging from customer surveys, newsgroup discussions and published articles, some of them are held in high regard while others are despised.
There were some surprises. The biggest one is that many apparently separate and competing dealers are actually jointly owned and run. This is no secret to followers of the many online photography and video forums, but we believe the intertwining is unsuspected by most consumers. On this site we've grouped many of the dealers into "families" to clarify their identities. They form a truly tangled web, with many overlapping corporate connections, addresses and telephones.
Another surprise was that some dealers act mainly as brokers, with little or no inventory of their own and no "real stores." In our opinion this should not disqualify a business from consideration, but it does contribute to frequent misunderstandings about what is "in stock".
The biggest obstacle to any research is that some dealers go to great lengths to conceal their locations and management. Sadly, this disguising seems to be the norm for many newer, web-only merchants.
We believe that open information benefits both consumers and dealers.
We have included the names of individuals where we could find them, so that consumers know whom to contact with compliments or questions or complaints about a specific transaction.
We believe that a businessperson who is proud of the way his or her business is conducted will be proud to be publicly associated with it.
Some of our information may be out of date, as some companies may change location, telephone numbers or personnel. We welcome updates or corrections via email here.
Sources Cited Much of the information on these pages is attributed to these sources:
Don't anthropomorphize computers: they hate that.
A shyster is an unscrupulous lawyer. How did shyster get to mean shady digital camera salesman?
This is not my sandwich.
Two years ago I had to replace the headlight in my sedan. I eventually bought it from an Internet-based vendor but not before I realized that most of the sites I investigated were being run by a much smaller number of actual businesses.
I have no idea how many companies are doing business selling car parts on the Internet but I'm sure that it's a small fraction of the "front-ends" that appear to be doing business.
--Richard
I paid $100 for a headlight for
which the dealer quoted me $240.
Ok, so this site is trying to provide an impartial "scoreboard" system for determining if online retailers are trustworthy, but why should anyone trust these guys any more than any other merchant ranking site?
The site is up and down like a yoyo right now so I can't find out how they are gathering their information, I mean if it's all anecdotal how do they discern between legitimate issues, PO'ed customers or just plain ol' bad luck?
Personally, I only buy big ticket electronics and camera gear from local vendors because there is a bit less risk (i.e. no shipping) and I can put a human face on the store I'm buying from. I guess the other thing that makes me dubious about some online deals is when a vendor is claiming to sell something way below MSRP, that little "it's too good to be true" voice pipes up in my head.
crazy dynamite monkey
never before could you reach out to all of humanity
you guys realize there are some negatives to this idea? such as da wiseguys in crooklyn reaching out too?
"yeah, it just fell off da back of a truck, yeah da receipt is for a refiderator, so what's it to you mr. palookaville? you gonna come to brooklyn and make something of it, huh?"
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Being pro-market, I see the scammers as the worst aspect of any market. In the past, it can be argued that regulations and restrictions through government was needed -- scammers were able to swindle thousands to millions of dollars before people were able to get the word out and warn each other.
As the percentage of technically-savvy individuals grows, information about a dealer or retailer can be distributed in seconds. Thousands of individuals can moderate (or rate) a seller, and sellers can moderate (or rate) buyers instantly. eBay handles these transactions with very little government involvement or force.
Scammers (such as the photo retailers) have been suckering people for DECADES. This is WITH government "protection" that many citizens believe they can rely on, yet we still see thousands of people getting swindled.
As the old generation moves out of the buying phase and the new generation becomes the big power in buying, we will see less swindling and scamming. It is already very hard to scam someone in my age range (low 30s) as most of us check online before buying a large item. Google is adapting much of their search ability to cellphones (WAP, SMS and other means). I already check items out through my wireless PDA phone when I am on the go. I've saved myself a few hundred dollars by not purchasing items with bad reviews. I found these reviews through my phone in mere moments.
The old ways of the retail industry are dying. As a retailer myself (who lost one of our stores because of a scamming employee and manager base), I know that the customer has more power than I do. When all you had was a local shop to buy from, you weren't able to negotiate for better quality, service or pricing. With next day service from thousands of online shops, the retailers are put on notice that they better offer more than just a product, or they'll go out of business.
These photo scams will end without much government involvement. If they broke a contract or agreement, I can understand calling a lawyer. Hopefully in the short run enough people will comment about their bad experiences that the companies will be punished before more people are scammed -- and I see the strength of scammers quickly weakening as information is globally available, instantly.
"Once you know, you newegg". And Amazon for anything non-electronic....
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
unless it is adorama or B&H photo. They don't do sucker deals and have good reps in Photography circles.
Jonathan
there are some reputable stores like B&H Photo but I generally agree, all of the bad experiences I've had shopping online came from new york based stores.
Rate each site you go to as either good or bad. Believe other people who vote similarly.
Deleted
Okay, except for maybe B&H Photo :)
http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1914.html
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
All caught on camera
Anyway, I did get my camera, and you know what? It came with a high speed SD card. I wouldn't be surprised if they all ship like that, and they just do the high pressure sales thing to jack their profit margin up when they can.
Why post about "Shysters", which is just phonetic "sheisters" (a derogatory term for Jews.) You wouldn't post an article about "Nigars" (black cigars)...
I've stuck to these rules and I've never experienced any trouble.
*grin*
He mentioned "reputable chain" and "Best Buy" in the same sentence...Perchance you haven't seen This Website
Years ago I bought a Minolta Dig Camera from a Brooklyn dealer via CNet. I was curious how/why they were able to price the camera a good $100 less than Fry's Electronics. Low, the camera shows up, it's the genuine article. New and US region bound.
Can someone explain how these guys operate? And whether they're as shady as many seem.
actually, you can get some pretty good prices from some of the electronics stores in NYC... and they're reputable as well. so don't go knocking all the NYC area electronics dealers...
please me, have no regrets.
I've been using Citibank/ATT Universal Card for online purchase. You can download an application that will let you generate a unique card number for each purchase. You can also limit the amount and set the expiration date.
After the purchase you can modify the amount or date and even cancel the number.
It won't stop you from making a dumb purchase but it will prevent excessive charges and unauthorized addtional charges to your credit card.
Basically, never buy a digital camera online.
Are you...Are you some kind of genius?
No, ma'am, I'm just a regular Slashdot reader.
I, and my company, buy plenty from B&H and Adorama. Also had good experiences with K&M.
It's like any other major purchase... do your homework. Look for stores with established brick & mortar business and reputation. Don't be lured by too-good-to-be-true deals (they really are). Ask around with people who are in the know (there are plenty of photography enthusiast websites out there).
Yes, there are a lot of shady people running shady ops in shady neighborhoods in the NY area. But that doesn't mean there aren't reputable shops as well.
Caveat emptor.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
...because I visited the link, and I can't find anything at all about "how the shysters work." All I can find are some spotty listings about a few online camera dealers, along with an "about" page which says that the site's administrators are possibly interested in link exchanges or ads (which would take away any credibility the site would otherwise have.) Overall not a remarkable site at all, and the posted link does not lead to the content mentioned on Slashdot. Either the site content changed or this was not Slashdot worthy at all.
Penny - plain text accounting
There are a few fine NY stores: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ http://www.adorama.com/ http://www.jandr.com/ In particular, B&H tends to carry everything photo related. Adorama carries almost as much as B&H. I've seen people happy with J&R, and I think 17th Street Photo (but I'm not sure of the last one), but they don't tend to have the depth B&H and Adorama has. So if you need say an Olympus 35-100mm f/2 lens, they will carry it, but you will get the glazed eye look if you ask for it at Best Buy. My one beef with B&H is they don't want to ship to maildrop places like The UPS store (I've had problems with delivery to the house, and prefer to get things delivered to the UPS store where somebody will sign for it, and I can pick it up at my leisure). So I tend to order from Adorama more often. Note that the price on these stores tends to be a fair price, but it isn't a 'deal' that the scam sites pretend to have.
I bought a Canon digital camera from Dell last year. I researched it and Dell actually had the lowest price, plus I found a working promo code somewhere. When I went to place the order I was swarmed with checkboxes and prompts for additional accesories that would easily have doubled the price of my order. It seemed like I had to clear checkboxes or click "No" dozens of times before I could buy the damn camera. But to Dell's credit, they did ship me the camera at the advertised price (and no death threats!).
Review sites for electronics and the like are chock full of super-cheesy, almost non-sensical reviews. If you look at reviews, and most of them consist of one or two lines of things that don't really matter, then it's a bogus review. There are so many of them, it becomes what I call "Surround and drown" fake reviews. Firefighters know that if you surround a fire with enough hoses, you can drown it sooner or later. These review sites have the same process, where all negative real reviews are drowned out by the fake ones.
"Timely shipping!" That one is my favorite fake review. Um, you ship via UPS or FedEx Ground. It's 3 days, no matter how you slice it. How can it not be timely?
"Great Customer Service!" Another of my favorites. The person hasn't done anything but buy something, in all likely hood. There hasn't been any customer service up to that point.
"Easy to use website ordering!" Um, yeah, that's the first thing I look for when buying electronics over the web.
If the review doesn't bring up any points, or doesn't provoke any honest thoughts, it is probably fake. Read the actual negative reviews.
Besides, why does this surprise anyone? The same thing can be said for almost every PC/XBox, PS/PS2 magazine or website. They all get such pats on the back from the companies they review, that they don't have an honest review in them. It's the equivelent of letting a lifelong, die-hard Rolling Stones fan review one of their concerts. The review is going to read "Dude, they Rawked!", even if Keith Richards was so stoned he forgot to play his guitar.
...the same rules apply now that applied 35 years ago when I started buying photo equipment. Most are places that will screw you one way or another. Some are downright crooks. And there are a few gems that stay in business year after year, garnering more and more loyal customers even though their prices aren't rock bottom.
Personally, I use BHPhotoVideo.com for darn near everything photographic. Some things, like flash brackets, are personal taste problems. You just gotta touch and feel before buying. But for everything else, B&H is either the best or so close I can't tell the difference. They're businesslike (even brusque, sometimes) on the phone but they're also professional and reliable. The number of similarly high-quality online dealers in this market segment can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Actually, you only need two - B&H and Adorama. There are a few specialty dealers who are good for other things and if you need what they sell, they're wonderful. But for the full line of general photo gear available online, it's B&H and Adorama.
The best guidance I know of for buying a camera or related equipment in the U.S. is at photo.net.
I think the biggest challenge is actually finding reputable reviews on-line. The problem with this large inbred group of scam vendors and review sites is that it floods google such that any search for:
"review " comes up with hundreds of bogus google bombs that have no valuable information in them. If you go to epinions.com, etc, unless an item has a fair number of reviews you can't trust that the reviewer isn't just astroturfing for the company's product.
For the areas I have some expertise like computer hardware or cameras, I know exactly where to look. But if I'm stepping slightly outside the bounds of my knowledge it becomes difficult. I was subscribed to Consumer Reports for a while but the flaw with them is that their information is always a year out of date it seems.
I'd definitely pay for a review site I could trust. Heck, I already do, having subscribed to Angie's List. Is there any equivalent for general consumer purchases?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0208092/
great british gangster film. be sure to use the pikie subtitles.
In general, a movie by Guy RItchie is worth the watching.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
What's wrong with Amazon for electronics?
+50 points for mentioning Adorama!
The folks there are absolutely fantastic. Very helpful, knowledgable, and offer a fair price. You can probably find stuff for a few dollars less elsewhere, but you don't know who you're dealing with.
Ask for Peter in the telescope department; he's sharp!
unscrupulous lawyer 1843, U.S. slang, probably altered from Ger. Scheisser "incompetent worthless person," from Scheisse "shit," from O.H.G. skizzan "to defecate" (see shit).
shyster--'shIs-t Etymology: probably from German Scheisser, literally, defecator
: one who is professionally unscrupulous especially in the practice of law or politics : PETTIFOGGER
You're not helping anyone. You make people with a legitimate beef look petty and you present people with no bad intentions at all as anti-semitic (or specifically anti-Jewish, as there are a lot more semitic people than just Jews).
Now, go into a closet and say "niggardly" a hundred times.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
I don't know **** about buying cameras/consumer electronics. WTF am I supposed to trust? I want to buy a digital camera, but all the sites look about the same to me...
Sure, it's easy to say "I'd rather pay a little more for a place I trust", but that doesn't really help all that much. If I just go to a place that charges a bit more, it's probably just more money in their pocket, not more value for me.
I hear enough about various places manipulating their reputations (either by threatening/suing websites with bad press, or by manipulating ratings on other sites, etc) that I can't really say who is "reputable" any more. Sure, I can say, "My brother bought one thing from them and it was ok", but that only goes so far...
--LWM
Pricewatch is better for getting the feeling of what something should cost, rather than a good pointer. Many of the shops on Pricewatch are shady, and may substitute something "equilivent" but less good. (Say higher-spec pc-chips motherboard for lower-spec, but stable, abit motherboard.)
....)
Remember, most of the sites like pricewatch simply spider member sites for prices. If the member has some other system on the page, with hidden text of what you want - you may find what you were not looking for.
(Yes I still use Pricewatch exclusively, but there are some merchants that will give you exactly what you ask for (and won't fit), and some merchants who will help you (more), and some who are
There is one at least that is a reputable dealer, B&H Photo. They are a massive store and sell still and video cameras from consumer up to extremely high end pro. They do audio gear, consumer and pro too. Of course because their are reputable their prices are good, but nothing special. However they are worth checking. I got my Yamaha reciever from them. Yamaha requires their recievers be purchased from a license dealer to honour warantee. All the local ones wanted full MSRP, however Yamaha lists B&H as a licensed dealer. Checked with them and it was much cheaper, even with $50 shipping.
So there ARE reputable dealers in New York, you just need to be careful. One thing to check is to see if they are authorized dealers. You can't fake something like that (Yamaha does the listing on their own site) and that's not something that a scammy, fly-by-night is going to do since the company wouldn't license them anyhow. If they are an authorized dealer for the companies that do that kind of thing, they are probably on the up and up.
I once worked for a nefarious underground organization called Krispy Kreme. We didn't accept AMEX because it would have greatly cut into our clandestine plans of total world domination. But now you seem to have uncovered the secret! So many years of work down the drain!
To err is human, to really foul up requires a computer
If I found a deal that looked too good to be true, I'd be inclined to take the website to one of my local stores that touts a price matching policy. That way, if they accept the price, you get a good deal, you see what you're buying before you pay for it, and there's a human face you can go and talk to if anything goes wrong.
The trick is in getting the local retailer to accept the website-listed "good deal". I do know of a couple that have well-defined posted rules for their price matching policies, and I'm sure some accept website listings as valid prices as well. Try checking it out in your area.
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've bought four cameras from Beach Camera - one from their Green Brook store and the rest online. Their site is a good place to shop, but if you're a connoisseur of high-pressure sales technique, go to the brick & mortar store on Rt 22. It's the next best thing to NYC.
I'll add my $0.02 based on my personal shopping experiences. I've had good results with:
Newegg (low prices, responsive customer service, prompt, very wide selection)
ZipZoomFly (lots of free 2nd day shipping, low prices, responsive customer service)
TechForLess (Bought an open-box UPS from them. Prompt, good prices)
AtomicPark (Software mainly but good prices and free shipping for holidays)
Amazon (books, cds, dvds)
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
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But were you avoiding AMEX to prevent their uncovering your Krispy Krimes? "... And I've have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for you darned meddling KIDS!"
Ce n'est pas un vrai mouvement de robot!
Book stores and Groceries both are corrupt?
I am quite distressed to learn of this! In order to relax I shall go escape to the democratic safety of Top 40 hit music on the radio.
Well, since I live in Brooklyn I guess I'll just trot over to my friendly neighborhood Priceritephoto...
useless sig advice - Read Nabokov.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/ has a great Buy & Sell forum. Hundreds of items are sold on there every week, and the items are usually in excellent condition and a great bargain. I posted a message indicating I was looking for a specific lens and had it paid for through PayPal a few hours later. I received the lens and it was in immaculate condition, with the original box, warranty card--even receipt. I was not surprised to find I was the third owner. Photography people tend to take care of their equipment.
This happens all the time, in all industries. For technology, look at ISPs and web hosts. Reselling is the cause here. For other industries, look at automotive. Are you doing to try and tell me a GMC Envoy is different than a Chevy Trailblazer? Or that a Chevy Cavalier is different than a Pontiac Sunfire? GM owns Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Oldsmobile, Saturn, Hummer, and Saab. Ford does it with Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, Jaguar, Mazda, Volvo, Land Rover, and Aston Martin. Daimler Chrysler does it with Dodge, Chrysler, and Jeep (Not to mention the German cars). Then you have the same thing with Japanese vehicles... Toyota owns Lexus. Did you know that the snazzy Lexus RX300 SUV is actually a Toyota Camry with a different body? Mitsubishi and Infiniti...
The all do it. You are being suckered every day, if that is what you wanna think of it as. These companies are just marketing to different niches. If you ran a business, wouldn't you try to get your products to the right channels? I don't think that there is anything ethical here... Although, the idea of the VCR and the walkie-talkies is in the unethical arena.
Just know what you are buying. Plain and simple. If you cannot put enough time and effort into figuring out what it actually is that you are buying, then it is either not worth buying, or you should expect the potential for being ripped off.
Politics, Life, and More on my Aspiring for the Future
I just buy from B&H Photo or Adorama. They've been around for years and their prices are as low as you'll usually find. I've never had any problems ordering or returning merchandise and they don't pressure you.
http://www.bhphoto.com/
http://www.adorama.com/
The markups on electronics are very slim. If someone is selling you an electronic product for hundreds below everyone else you're being ripped off.
Actually, the ethnic breakdown of the bottom-feeder camera stores in NYC is an intersting mix: lots of Arabs, yes, but probably a slim majority are either Israeli or other middle-eastern Jewish ("Crazy" Eddie Antar being the most famous of the lot -- the Antars were all Syrian Jews), but also a good chunk of Russian, Polish, Turkish and other assorted Eastern/Central European and "near east" ethnicities.
Not all of them are criminal -- a lot of the completely legitimate places like J&R and B&H are run by people from the same places -- but you'd have to be off your rocker to order anything from a camera store in the 11xxx area code without having a face-to-face/handshake relationship with the staff.
News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters? Like hell.
Actually, AMEX hasn't been as bad as I thought from the merchant side. The discount rate's not great, but I can live with it. Getting set up wasn't hard, and I pay like $5/month for service. Granted, I have very little AMEX volume, and larger merchants pay more. But no complaints so far...
I'm sure we all remember the phone-book-thick Computer Shopper magazines. Tons of RAM, CPU, and disk vendors advertising in there did the same trick. This certainly isn't exclusive to the Internet, nor to camera vendors.
The best example I can think of off the top of my head is Dirt Cheap Drives aka Megahaus.
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With few exceptions, these companies are owned and operated by one particular ethnic group. If you study the pictures above or know anything about the NY areas depicted, you'll know what I mean. These types of scam operations only serve to reinforce certain ethnic stereotypes that other honest businessmen/women in this group have striven so hard to fight.
AMEX takes about twice as much of a cut though, something like 6% or so of every sale goes to AMEX, which is a lot of money.
Although I've seen the store-front photos of some of the vendors referenced in TFA and would not consider purchasing anything from them due to reputation alone, I want to point out that doing business under several names is not necessarily the "smoking gun" being intimated in this discussion.
I have a several clients (Pest Control companies) which operate under more than one name. Most times everything is run from the same office using the same personnel but, in at least one case, there are two separate offices and, with the exception of occasional "borrowing" of service technicians, distinct personnel. It's humorous to hear a technician relate comments by customers "I don't like those XXX guys -- you do such a better job!" when, in fact, he normally works for "XXX" and is just filling in that day. Although it sounds fishy on the surface, I have personally been in each of the offices with complete access to their databases and never have I seen anything to indicate any dishonest or disreputable business practices.
This is not to say I don't have any clients which seem a little shady, but the ones I have had access to with multiple names are not among them. So, just because two sites might be traced back to the same operator, this does not, in and of itself, automatically make them dishonest (though I'd certainly be digging a little deeper).
People shout "racism" without understanding what it means.
Look up "racism" and then look up "xenophobic". Understand the difference.
Can you be "racist" against canandians? What "race" are Canadians?
Seriously, it strikes me that you really have no clue what a "race" is, and if you don't have a clue what a "race" is, then you certainly have no clue what "racism" is.
While you are correct that there are plenty of non-Jewish Semitic people, the adjective "anti-Semitic" has always been used to refer specifically to the hatred of Jews. It entered English via the German word "antisemitismus", which was created to replace the word "Judenhasse" -- Jew-hate.
I have been unable to find any instance of "antisemitism" being used to refer to all Semitic people. I welcome counterexamples.
I have purchased (from B&H) a Canon 70-200mm f2.8 L IS a Canon 100mm f2.8 A remote control various filters never had any problems, reasonable prices.
Here's My account of a recent still ongoing experience with Eracks
I ordered two 1U servers servers from Eracks on 9/6/05 and paid with a
credit card. I received a order confirmation within a few minutes.
Seven Days later on the 13th I had still had not heard from Eracks or received the equipment. I made email
and inquiries and then went to the website to look for the phone number for Eracks. The phone number
was not on the website only the Fax number and support email addresses. A couple of whois queries later
I had a phone number and placed the first of Many calls to Eracks. This time I only got to leave voicemail
as there was no response.
On the 14th there was still no response to my emails of voicemail messages so I got on the phone and got
a person this time. This person "Fred" was farmiliar with my order and confirmed that the servers would
ship at the end of the week or early the following week on or around the 16th or 19th and that I could
expect tracking numbers via email when they shipped.
Sept 19th no tracking numbers so I called again to see what was going on. Fred was now telling me that
there was a problem with the motherboards on the systems I ordered and that they needed to be replaced.
I could expect the servers to ship on the 21st.
Sept 21st Hooray tracking numbers! Shipper says that I should expect shipment around the 23rd.
Sept 23rd thru Sept 26th No shipment
Sept 26th No shipment On this day I call DHL to figure out where the shipment is. DHL tells me that the
shipment was never received on the sender end and that I will not be receiving shipment on those tracking
numbers.
Calls into Eracks that morning were met with confusion and requests to call back later when the
"shipping guys were in" Fred was also unavailable.
Later that day I did receive a call from Fred and he explained that there was a mixup on their end and
that the servers did not ship as scheduled on the 21st. There were some vague references to lengthy
burn in testing and other factors that delayed shipment. My inquiries as to why these details took a week
uncover and communicate with me were met with silence. Fred promises to ship the servers next day on the
28th.
Sept 28th servers ship according to UPS tracking information.
Sept 29th Both servers arrived, after unboxing the servers servers I proceeded to attach the rackmount
brackets to the case on the first server. They did not fit! I took some digital picures of the
cases and the brackets and emailed these to Eracks hoping for some new rackmount brackets with a hole
pattern that matched the cases they sent me. I was issued a case number by the support system.
Sept 29th I started a destructive read write test on the disks on the first system. This was in response
to the shipping schock sensors being tripped.
Sept 30th thru Oct 3rd no response on rackmount bracket problem. In fact I never heard from Eracks
support on this issue.
Oct 3rd System 1 built for customer and deployed. I had to eat the cost of some rack mount shelves for the
customer because of useless rack mount brackets shipped with the servers.
Oct 4th thru Oct 10th no response on rackmount bracket problem.
Oct 11th System fails midmorning. Subsequent investigation shows a probable disk controller or disk failure.
Oct 11th 8:45 am Email to support@eracks.com and Fred outlining problem and requesting callback
Oct 12th 9:30 am voicemail live personnel not available left at Eracks same information as above.
Oct 12th 10:30 am call attempt voicemail system again.
Oct 12th 4:00pm call reaches Fred. I explain the situation, my unhappiness with the systems and
the complete lack of support . I explain that I will be returning both systems as I have already
secured and installed replacements
The issue is of Shylock and antisemitism is dicussed at more length than I am willing to read right now at this site. A more concise summary of Shylock is over yonder.
Language students: Don't try to learn English here. This ain't it.
I would never buy electronics or anything expensive there, but Best Lie is a pretty good store for music and movies. At least around here they have the best selection and decent prices. Only Circuit City is lower, but their selection is rather poor.
"It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
2) I only use my American Express (AMEX). I can't tell you how many times AMEX has helped with fraudulent charges, merchants that don't deliver etc. AMEX is expensive and a pain in the ass for mechants to sign up. If they are not willing to do that, than I won't buy. I will pay a slight premium for sights that take AMEX. It's worth it.
Somehow I was under the impression that the opposite was true. I think it's because I believed that Visa and MC have to go thru a bank and Amex you deal with the institution itself (I know next to nothing of the "behind the scenes" of financial institutions so feel free to correct me). So if a company was in financial trouble, the first sign would be that their bank would cut them off credit cards transactions.
Myself, I'm paranoid when it comes to buying online. I won't buy anything over $50 (incl shipping) from someplace I don't know. And even then, I use an "e-card" (one-shot credit card number issued by my bank on demand).
My policy is, if it's too good to be true, it isn't. And if I'm buying a $2000 camera, and the savings I'm getting from a potentialy sady vendor (compared to, say, Amazon) is only $300, I'd rather pay extra or go to a "brick and mortar" store.
No sig
One of my teachers in high school did some moonlighting as a limo driver -- he said that most of the places do business as a few different names, to give them better odds when someone's going through the phone book and randomly picking one. (this was probably ~15 years ago)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
I recently purchased a Canon digital camera. I called the tech support line and asked for a recommendation. They sent me to a reputable reseller.
Consumer Reports gives these reports for those who don't have time to mess around with their computer. Dell, and Compaq/HP have service plans for their computers. They also have a known reliability record (unlike some of the smaller Taiwanese retailers). Sure, their service departments might not always be that great and they might be in India, but it's better than nothing.
"Best Buy" in consumer reports does not mean "Best Deal". It means lowest-risk-of-hassle deal, that gets the job done, at a reasonable price point.
Sure, I could go and build your own car and get a great deal and a lot of horsepower out of it, but I'm sure as hell not going to do that, because I don't have time to mess with that. I need to get from point A to point B reasonably fast, and in under a couple grand. And I want someone to be there if my car craps out.
The reason he was discouraging you from buying the 20D is because he didn't stock them. He probably had XT's in stock.
The other thing to note is a 20D isn't a "professional" camera because of its 24mm sensor. Its a fantastic camera, but the new 5D is geared at the professional because of its sensor size.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
That's a funny sig.
If only there weren't people dumb enough to think that it actually means something.
Here's a real world example of electronic store employees speaking in code.
The setup up paints it as racism, but its good ol' NY paranoia. Who do we trust? NOBODY.
/and for the record, his prices were insane
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I'm afraid this is a bit like Sturgeon's law for camera stores -- of course 90% of the bad dealers in in NYC -- 90% of all the dealers are in NYC. Unfortunately, buying from dealers elsewhere doesn't really seem to raise your percentages much (if at all). Just for an obvious example, one particularly notorious scammer operated (still operates?) out of Washington or Oregon, if memory serves. At the same time, two thirds of the reputable dealers are New York.
In the end, it's all pretty simple: KEH, B&H and Adorama are about the only online camera stores worth considering. Of course, most online electronics/computer stores have at least some camera equipment, and if they're good otherwise, they'll probably do a perfectly fine job of shipping cameras as well. Just keep in mind that to them it's basically just a box -- as long as you're shopping the web page and don't expect them to supply you with any advice, they're fine. If you want to talk to a salesperson and get decent advice about what you should buy, you just about need to talk to a dedicated photography store (though dpreview.com, photo.net, etc. might be more useful, especially if you've narrowed things down so you want real detail on a few candidates, not just general guidance based on the kinds of pictures you usually take). If you drop by Photo.net after reading this, you're morally obliged to look at My Portofolio there. :-)
The universe is a figment of its own imagination.
"Remember, most of the sites like pricewatch simply spider member sites for prices."
;-)
No... not true at all... the reason I have always used Pricewatch is that they _don't_ spider sites... each item listed on pricewatch is entered _by the the company providing the product_.
This makes pricewatch stand apart because the price that is on the website is actually the advertised price from the companies selling things.... so if they try to give you a different price when you actually order, you have some ground to stand on.
I have personally had a lot of good luck with pricewatch... but I haven't bought anything directly off there in over a year now... why? Well... mostly because I found Newegg. Sure newegg doesn't always have the _absolute_ lowest price (by a couple of bucks usually)... but their service (holy turnaround and shipping time!) and reputation more than makes up for it. I would rather pay $10 and get good shipping and know that my credit card wasn't stolen.... but maybe that's just me
Friedmud
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Finally someone reads TFA...
I'm glad you had good experiences, but if you bothered to check out the article summary for the story instead of just blindly clicking and commenting (a rather unfortunate plague here on /.) you would see that many of these fraudulent/shady companies are able to garner high ratings.
As in one famous case, PriceRitePhoto basically used extortion, holding people's refunds hostage if they left bad reviews and other various tricks to get good reviews.
Hey, don't knock lesbianteenelectronics.com They may sometimes sell products as new that are in fact slightly used, but I've found that pictures already on the memory card more than make up for it.
Sorry but lack of full information constitutes a market failure. [In non economophonics that means that free market assumptions are not given to hold, err, it means the g-parent was right about this.]
;)
If you are really interested there is plenty of informational economic theory out there.
It is actually one of the central excuses for why stores don't actually sell things at "P=MC" [price = marginal cost].
Imagine that there are 15 stores selling the same thing (old school, no internet) and they are spaced an average of 5 miles apart. The cost of driving from store to store (gas, your time, etc.) all contribute to 'search costs.' In fact the order in which you go from store to store effects how much it will costs you at any given store to buy the thing. This all breaks down to the fact that we make a decision at some point (and you know it is true) to stop looking and just buy the damn thing... Search costs are not needed when perfect information is already available, and hence stores can charge that much more than marginal cost for a product. There are actual mathmatical models of such things, but I would imagine most can catch the drift. [Consequently someone offering you a list of what those 3 stores charged for the item would have a value to you also...]
This whole Internet 'thing' really is a war over search costs
BTW Tinfoil/Think to make you go "Hmm..." - Maybe having effective ranking/rating/pricing sites is not exactly a top-priority for the smart businessman... Mis-information raises those search costs...
I've noticed this trend also in recent months. I stick to the larger e-tailers like buy.com, amazon, etc... Most of the customer reviews are real. birarai
1) only buy from reputable sites. this has been going on since computer shopper days. its even more true today.
That's sortof the crux of the matter. How do you know who is reputable on the net (besides say amazon). You look at reviews...
If I had created the world I wouldn't have messed about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers
If you've ever read Consumer Reports you'd know that it's not "consumers" who are doing the testing. Please re-mod the parent as 'Funny'.
O lord, bless this thy holy hand grenade, that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.
The problem with Consumer reports is that the reports and reviews are not written by experts. They are written by consumers, who have no idea what the hell they're dealing with.
Admit you just made that up and have no idea what you are talking about.
This is actually very informative. I've ordered from both of these retailer multiple times. No problems, no high pressure phone calls. Prices are very good (although not as quite as good as the "too good to be true" stores.)
As the other reply says, you can go to B&H and watch the show. The store has conveyor belts and boxes moving purchased goods around.
I used to work for a Jewish lawyer. In a memo or message I used the word "shyster" (not accusing anyone; IIRC it was something like "How do we find out if Mr. ________ is onto something or is just a shyster?"). My boss told me (politely, he's a nice guy) that he was uncomfortable with the term and indicated he thought the term drived from Shylock. That didn't seem right to me, so I looked it up and discovered what the parent post points out. I reported that to my boss. He was ok with the situation, and was glad he'd learned something.
Oh Reginald...
I DISAGREE!
_Squealing tires_
You really should have called or written to their corporate HQ about that.
That's the second thing I've heard recently about Best Buy managers being totally out of line. I think that their district or regional managers are definitely cutting the store managers too much slack, or not giving them enough oversight. The thing I heard more recently was some very shift practices regarding xBox360 "bundles" -- they were advertising the straight-up price for the console in the flyers, but if you went into the store, the employees had been instructed not to sell them except as part of bundles with many expensive, high-profit add-ons. Eventually people got annoyed enough that they called corporate, which said that the 'bundles only' thing was BS (as they should, since it amounts to false advertising and creation of a clear bait-and-switch). However some people still ran into problems when they tried to return all the bundled add-ons; some stores were refusing the returns.
Here's an Inquirer article about it, I think I originally heard about it from my local (dead tree) paper:
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28056
The thing smacks to me of some store managers basically going rogue and violating company policy in order to get their numbers up by the end of the year. I've talked to some people at BB and they have sales goals for high-margin stuff (especially service plans / extended warranties) and add-ons, and they thought this would be a great way to stick people for them. However the corporate side is guilty also, for creating the incentive structure that's so warped in the first place. How about some oversight?
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
The best way I have found to get a good deal on a digital camera is to go out to a camera shop with a bundle of crisp pound notes. Speak to a sales assistant. Handle a few cameras. Ask if the assistant has tried them {why are they working in a camera shop if they don't love taking photographs?} What do they feel like in your hand? Note the layout of the controls, and check that your fingers are not going to get in the way of the lens -- or any of the other sensors like the auto-focus or the light meter. Does your shutter finger keep finding the on-off switch by mistake? *cough*FujiFilm*cough* How long does it take to store the picture and recharge the flash? Look at some test shots, or even better take some yourself. See if you can get a discount for cash, or something chucked in {another memory card, a multi-slot reader, free prints .....} And if the store staff don't treat you like you pay their wages, then don't pay their wages.
..... NB no penguin-shaggers please, these ones only do 2MPx without the special closed-source Windows driver.
There's still no substitute for real, live shops with real, live people in them. If you don't believe me, I have some very inexpensive 8 megapixel cameras you may want to buy
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
This has been going on a for a few years now. Most of the shops work out of New York/Northen New Jersey.
No, I think you'll find that there actually are more scams.
I don't know if there are more scammers, though I wouldn't be surprised. See Penny Arcade's "Greater Fuckwad Theory". IIRC it went like, Normal Person + Anonymity + Captive Audience = Fuckwad. I'm guessing even psychopaths, which is what most of these scammers and spammers are, would be a lot more discrete in dealing with their RL neighbours than when they're hidden behind the Internet identity of "Mrs Ouije Ngbendu, the widdow of the former Nigerian minister of finances" or in this case "John Doe, world-class photography expert, reviewer of digital cameras." Or they'd find themselves ostracized very very quickly.
This anonymity lends itself to all sorts of scams, including web-fronts pretending to be a different company, when in fact they aren't, or reviewing your own products under a different name. Having a different disposable identity has become very very cheap for a change. While before you _could_ buy the local newspaper to ensure they always recommend your stuff and publish your own reviews under a pseudonym, or even start your own newspaper, now you only need a colocated server and a domain name.
Being able to have 1000 different identities also adds even more possibilities there, and I don't just mean being the widdow of 1000 different former Nigerian ministers. It creates opportunities like being a one-man astroturf operation (see the JBoss fuckwits back in that astro-turfing affair, where seemingly 100 different persons from all over the world rose to denigrate or shout down anyone who dared mention any problem) or write 1000 different glowing reviews of your own products on 100 "independent" sites, all owned by yourself. I remember at least one case where the fuckwit didn't even bother changing the theme or anything: it was literally the same site under at least 20 different names, all linking to each other, to drive the Google rank way up. (At least back then, it worked.)
It's not just a problem of quantity as such, as in being able to do the same scam 1000 times over, it becomes a problem of quality: one person can create enough noise to drown all useful signal. Think about it. IRL you could try nagging someone to buy model X instead of model Y, but in their mind it will still register as 1 person's opinion. If 10 other people tell them otherwise, it's 10 opinions against 1. Here it's possible to appear like 1000 independent consumers like you recommending product X, shifting the opinion ration to 1000 to 10. While technically it's not a new scam, as companies have been known before to hire a lot of people to spread glowing testimonials, now it's cheaper and more efficient than ever.
So I'd be really surprised if these opportunities haven't attracted more scammers than before.
But, yes, the second half of the equation is that now it's possible to scam thousands of people at the same time. While a stereotypical wild-west snakeoil peddler could sell that crap to maybe half a dozen, or let's say a dozen, people before cautiously skipping town, now you can peddle H3RB4L V14GR4 to 100,000,000 people in one spam run. If only 1 in 1000 fall for it, you've scammed more people in one night than a wild-west snake-oil peddler could have in a _lifetime_. And if you manage to get a fake review site to be popular enough, you may even strike gold in a bigger way than with spam.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
I remember when it was fairly common for online stores to trust the clients. They'd send you an order form showing "item X" for "price Y", and when you submitted it, it'd take the price from the value in the web form. A lot of people would edit the HTML to reflect "price Z", and get a $500.00 product for $0.75.
At least one court ruled that this was legal. In effect, the client was making an offer to buy item X for price Z, and the vendor's automated purchasing system was accepting their offer. It wasn't the client's fault that the purchasing system was phenomenally naive and would accept any offer thrown at it.
So, that clause may well have been in self-defense. Their intent might be along the lines of "we have the right to manually confirm that your order is for the amount that we legitimately offered it for". I might be completely off-base, but that seems fairly likely.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
So, does that make you a Nazi Nazi?
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
i ordered a macro lens from this place online and got one of these:
/ 12/1725209&tid=222&tid=126
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12
How can an adult get far enough in life to get an Amex but still can't spell THEN or SITE? I mean, WEB SIGHT?!?!??? WWWAAAAAAAARRGGRGRHHH!!
Out of my 3 major credit cards I use AMEX about 90% of the time and 100% online. They are best at handling fraud charges or merchants that do not deliver and as you mentioned it costs more for a merchant to process AMEX and more difficult to get it set up. If a merchant goes through that little trouble then it is a merchant that cares a little about the customer. I have noticed that lots of run-by-night places only use Visa/MC because Visa/MC have turned the blind eye on 3rd party clearing houses that provide checkout services to retailers.
:)
Amex also has least hidden charges, I have been enrolled into some dining plan by my Visa card when I just hung up on a telemarketer pushing the package and Mastercard signed me up for a "protection" racket (I mean plan) when I told a telemarketer to stop bothering me. Ultimately I called both Visa and MC provider and asked them to reduce my cradit limit to 1k each so that even if they do screw up it won't be for anything too major. I wish I could just cancel them both but there are places that don't take Amex (mostly small retailers).
And don't get me started on American Airlines Visa I used to have... I gathered 130,000 miles on it and I can't find any viable tickets, every flight I try to get is either 3 connections or last row that doesn't recline next to the toilets. When I pay cash suddenly I get direct flights with seating in the middle to front and even window seats.
At least Amex miles let me use it to buy concert tickets from Ticketmaster... a tangible reward without hassles
The Mob saw your posting and put a hit on their server!
I just set up an amex merchant account - of course the paperwork isn't here with me right now. I believe the rate was 3.5% compared to appx 2% for mc/visa. On $1k purchases that starts to add up. However its a competitive advantage for me since most of my competitors don't take it.
The other big difference is how payment is handled. With visa/mc, the money goes into your account quickly - within a couple of days. With amex, the money doesn't go into your account until the customer pays his bill. So if there is a dispute, amex doesn't have to do a chargeback as they have never handed out any cash, whereas visa/mc have to do a chargeback and do more work to do so.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
Shylock was a money lender, not a lawyer. A shylock usually means a userer, someone who lends money at an excessive rate interest rate.
A few years ago I spent 2 weeks in the Outer Banks, NC. Naturally there was to be lots of lovely sun, ocean, beach, canoing.. But that could not deter me from logging into the Internet to check Slashdot! So I had to find a dialup ISP to take for a month so I could have access. I shopped around and found about a dozen, which all seemed very close as far as pricing and services. But, strangely, when I clicked (yes clicked.. no more lynx anymore) the subscribe links, I was always brought to a page which looked like the other pages! The domains weren't the same, and the layout of the page wasn't exact - but it was much more similar than any of the home pages had been. What gave the trick away completely though, was that the terms of service was exactly the same! And when I looked deeper, I found that they were all owned by the same company. Very strange yes. Amazing the lengths people will go to in order to let customers think they are getting a choice. But then again, it is just good business I suppose.
:) I hate to say it, but: THANKS AOL!
Oh, in the end I subscribed to AOL for a month. I would be ashamed to admit this but I promptly canceled them upon returning and paid $0.
But, if you don't know anything about something, consumer reports is great. A month ago, I needed a new refrigerator. I did a couple google searches, came up with nothing, and looked in consumer reports. Bang. I got a great machine that I'm quite happy with (now, how long it will last?).
Many people don't know jack about cars, and CS is a great place to start looking. For the most part the reviews are unbiased.
Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
Mostly thieves. New York is the melting pot of Trailer Trash. What more can you expect from them?
It must be miserable living in a world where every thought and deed has a covert double-meaning. Why do you want to live there?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I used to work in "Distance Learning" for the Securities and Insurance industries. The company sold continuing education and licensing study courseware that you took online.
I knew of a number of different URLS and web sites the company used to sell the exact same product. Prices varied wildly between sites. One of the sites had a name chosen to confuse people into thinking they were dealing with the people who administered the SAT.
At a lot of firms, the company would pay for their reps' courseware, while at others the reps were required to pay for it themselves. What astounded me was how many insurance and securities firms would turn this into a profit center. All the reps would be required to get their C. E. through the company branded site. The kicker, was that the prices they paid were 10% to 50% higher than what an individual would pay using one of the other web sites.
Why would Monolith Insurance (Not a real customer name) have their reps pay so much more? Simple, Monolith Insurance would be pocketing the extra fees.
In house, the sales reps referred to it as the "Profit center financial university."
One day, one of the sales reps showed me a competitor's online exams. I noticed that the competitor was conducting exams illegally. They were selling to New York Insurance reps, but breaking New York's rules for Insurance Continuing Education exams.
When I told the sales rep that I was going to report the competitor to appropriate authorities, I got chewed a new one. Seems the sales rep worked for both companies.
So, I dutifully listened to the lecture, and waited a full three days before filing an anonymous complaint. I'm a loyal employee, until some asshat asks me to break the law or "forget" to report a violation of the law.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
"I was annoyed 'cause I was absolutely sure that I knew what I wanted "
You were more annoyed because you hadn't researched correctly and were swayed by a clerk in a camera store. That's okay, but you really *didn't* do your research.
For example, when talking about the Rebel XT versus the 20D, the salient points are:
1) The XT is smaller than the 20D, making it better for people with small hands, but worse for people with big hands or for people who need to balance bigger lenses.
2) Both are not full-frame sensors (but despite common belief, the two use different sensors). However, both can use EF-S mount.
3) The 20D has a magnesium body, making it significantly more rugged.
4) The 20D has more available options
5) The 20D is a faster camera in the sense that it turns on faster and it has a higher frame rate. The 20D has slightly better extreme low-light capabilities, but not enough to make it a decision point.
6) The 20D's controls are significantly better and more intuitive primarily because of the increased size of the camera body. It allows better controls.
The 20D is a somewhat better camera than, the problem is, Canon has priced it significantly more expensive than the XT making the decision a tough one. I tell most people who just want an SLR to get the XT because for their purposes the two are essentially the same.
There.
I got all of that info from the internet in 4 days of research without having set foot in a camera store. In fact, if you go into a camera store, they will get important facts about each camera wrong, because they typically aren't well versed in a single model.
If you're spending $1500 on a camera, presumably *you* knew all of that before you set foot in the camera store. I bought the 20D, because I'm tired of plastic bodied cameras. And that alone made the difference.
I bought it at Amazon BTW.
Either Adorama is that good or this site is full of astroturfers.
1. I submitted this site because thousands of camera buyers are victimized every year. Slashdot members, being more web-savvy than average, may be more aware and thus less susceptible. And less surprised at the site's information.
2. The word "shyster" was nowhere in my submission.
3. Many members send in links to promote commercial sites. The site I submitted is more or less a public service.
4. DANGEROUS GROUND alert! Perhaps slashdot should examine whether the shopping comparison site it is allied with is one of those that allows itself to be used by the villains we've been discussing. (Look up your favorite digital camera, and see what dealers show up near the top of the list with clusters of rave reviews.)
Depends how you define "total failure". Personally I rate art and culture over the Big Mac and SUVs. YMMV.
What a poorly-conceived dig against the USA! Perhaps reflexive America-bashing is a "cool" thing to do in the culture you live in, but there are several aspects of it that deserve attention.
1. The Big Mac is part of American culture. Sure, I don't eat them, but millions of non-Americans do. If they were such crap, and the cultures you think are superior are so superior, then why do those cultures not reject Big Macs as the crap that you perceive them as? Are those cultures incapable of understanding your refined tastes?
2. Are you trying to claim that the United States has "no culture"? This is a common and retarded canard. Of course the United States has a culture! In fact, it has many, many cultures as you might expect a country of 300 million people and millions of square miles of land to contain. Do you think the cultures of Seattle, New Orleans, New York City, Lubbock, San Franciso, San Diego are all equal(ly crap)?
3. The USA isn't the only country that drives or makes SUVs.
4. The USA has artists too. In fact, they're so good that the government forces individuals to pay them!
5. Do you admire the cultures of Saudi Arabia and Iran? Many Euro-elitists can endlessly bash the machiavellian evil of Biggie Fries, but they can't seem to generate the energy to criticize the *hideously* anti-woman, anti-gay, and anti-democracy record of more than one middle eastern country.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Mod me down if you must, but the inference that two 'foreigners' at different stores were in cahoots against the shopper - only evidenced by one's use of a walkie-talkie and a language the shopper didn't understand - smacks of racism.
/. troll post. ;)
Racism is the belief that one's own race is inherently superior to another's race. (Or that another's race is inherently inferior to one's on race.)
I don't believe in races. I believe in one race: the human race. The belief in "separate races" is a cultural belief, not a scientific belief, and is the core of all racist beliefs. If you read my words as saying, "If you believe in separate races, then you are a racist", then you read me correctly.
That said, I see nothing racist in the parent poster's words or actions. Perhaps it was bigoted, but not racist. Perhaps the actions of the shopkeepers were also bigoted. Hard to tell from the average
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
Once you know, you Newegg. If you must use online places other than Newegg, I agree entirely with earlier posters who mentioned resellerratings. Oh and BTW never trust the ratings on Pricewatch, they are always stacked, even Target PC Inc is rated well there, and they are so far from reliable that they almost made me stop shopping online.
only because of the fact that there is a sucker born every minute.
This is a horrible quote.
It's a quote that was born from the realization that someone could take advantage of a trusting public on a mass scale. In other words, someone could easily make money through fraud using the trust of an inexperienced public as the lube, so to speak.
This means that the public likely hasn't encountered an asshole as big as the person saying, "There's a sucker born every minute." The notion of calling them "suckers" is a way of making it seem like they *deserve* to be defrauded. Have you had "friends" who thought it was smart/funny/cool to take advantage of your trust? Do you have a high opinion of a human who wants to make a *career* of that skill?
To me, the fact that the quote exists and isn't derided in the same way that we deride "Let them eat cake" is a sign of degeneracy in our culture. Yes, that's a value-judgement-charged statement, and I make no apology for it. We all have to stand somewhere, and I think fraud (and especially the notion that some people deserve to be defrauded) sucks to high hell.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
And no mosquitoes either (I live in the SF Bay Area.)
I'll gladly suffer through a certain amount of PC bulls*** to avoid those. Although my patience does wear thin from time to time.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Not exactly so:
For many items, everything works out fine, but for things like barebones computers: They may return something for a search like "Socket 939, windows" that has a different configuration when you click on it... Something like, the price goes up when you use the drop-down configuration box to choose that motherboard in the box.
Also, I have had some experience (albiet not recent) when going to the store (Sometimes you need it NOW) and having the end store play games.
Some places are great, others not so much. But the site gives you a good starting point. And they do show NewEgg in the results: so you know what the good service price is...
The shipping companies are fairly consistent in their delivery, but asking for overnight mail doesn't really help you if the merchant doesn't get the item to the shipping company the same day.
Don't forget Calumet Photo.
I was looking on the web for some Sony equipment (the black projector screen) and found many places selling it at list of $1999, but some discounted down to as much as $1314. I searched on those sites with "scam" in the search and quickly learned to avoid them. But I saw no such issue for beachcamera.com and the price was $1399 plus $200 shipping (truck) so I bit the bullet and risked it. When my screen arrived damaged I was very worried, but when I called the guy he said he'd have it picked up and another one shipped out, and it arrived a few days later without issue.
So there are a few NY area places that aren't run by crooks, but from the sounds of things they are few and far between!
*blink* You have to get far in life? Dude, they were practically handing them out on the street while I was in college. Admittedly, it was a "student version" of the credit card, but it was easily obtained. I had one for a while, but preferred the performance of Discover. *shrug* Then again, I'm probably an atypical credit card user. I buy almost everything on my credit card, but I pay off my full balance every month. Therefore, the percentage rates don't matter to me; what matters is a lack of fees. Getting (admittedly miniscule) cash back is just icing on the cake.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
Indeed you have gotten a competitive advantage. As a general rule I prefer online sites that take American Express. While I still have my MasterCard for the absolute something that can be only done on Mastercard (for example, my favorite grocery store Trader Joe's does not take Amex and is probably my only complaint about Trader Joe's). A store with Amex on their list of cards taken A) Is more likely to get purchases and B) Is more likely to get bigger purchases from me. Think about that retailers...
...in bed
Amazon might not be the cheapest in relation to other online retailers, but it is significantly less expensive than stores like Best Buy. Not to mention Amazon is very reputable. I complained to them once on Dec 23rd that my order had not arrived yet (electronics) and they said they would overnight it to me....sure enough I had it the next day. Sometimes the peace in mind that you know you won't be hassled and will get your merchandise is worth the extra dollars it costs on Amazon.
Most sites that gotapex.com provides are good places to buy from and have good deals. However, always do your research before you buy from a retailer for the first time.
I used to accept AmEx, and had some very bad experiences with them. They would regularly send me incorrect letters, including sensitive data intended for other merchants, and outright refused on at least three occasions to warn cardholders whose data had been compromised and used for fraudulent orders.
They do not necessarily always withhold funds from the merchant until the cardholder has paid. Disputed charges were taken back out of my bank account, just like Visa/MasterCard's process.
This was all back in 1999, so YMMV, but I still refuse to use or accept AmEx.
Speaking of AMEX, techbargains.com mentioned their Starwood pricematching program, and that it explicitly would not pricematch "Abes of Maine, A&M Photo World, Adorama, Beach Camera, Broadway Photo, Calumet, CCI Camera City Inc, Digital Liquidators, J&K Cameras, Newtonville Camera, Royal Camera, The cameras source, Tri-state camera, Unique Photo." AMEX's list is probably a good one to keep tabs on...
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
How the fuck was that a troll? CR does lean to the left. Good, bad, or otherwise, that's pretty much generally accepted. Is it too much to ask that they keep their politics out of their product reviews?
Disclaimer: I haven't bought enough online to know whether what I do "works" or is "just lucky".
That said, here's my system:
- Look for reviews about the product and the store separately
- For each type of review, read (a) glowing reviews, (b) average reviews, and (c) negative reviews
- For glowing reviews, ignore "me too"s and look for actual substance which might distinguish between vendors. Why were people happy?
- Give average reviews a little more weight; look for general trends of what people expect
- Give negative reviews the most weight; they seem to be the most honest. Why were people unhappy? Do they have valid points, or do they seem unreasonable?
In the end, reading online reviews is an exercise in human nature. Some people will cheat for or against; others have no perspective on reality and distort average to being awesome or horrible. Your job is to identify the reviews that are trustable; these usually contain details not found in glossy ads; they are usually plentiful, if a bit hard to find.
However, the poster's careful specification that both of the store clerks he spoke to appeared to be Indian, and the immediate presumption that the second was talking to the first, and the further presumption that the talking was sneaky and to the detriment of the customer, is racist.
How did the parent poster's action indicate that he
A. believed in separate races
B. believed that his own race was superior to another race
?
Please explain. You claim to know what "racism" is, but I don't believe you yet.
And, no, racism, is NOT equivalent to bigotry. Bigotry does not imply a belief in separate races -- much less a belief that one's own race is inherently superior to another.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I just purchased a Nikon 18-70mm and a Tokina 12-24mm lens. These were through Amazon and fulfilled very very quickly by OneCall.com. I'm fairly trusting of Amazon, and the people they use. I'd never heard of OnceCall, but literally, the lenses arrived within 16 hours, admittedly via expensive FedEx overnight.
Just a data point. Usual disclaimers.
Duh. And how exactly is one to know if a sight [sic] is reputable, or even if a SITE is?
Having worked in various levels of the retail industry, I can tell you that one day not so far in the future, that Amex might be near-useless except for airfare and high-markup items such as furniture and appliances.
:P Amex is retarded and eventually they will run out of retailers to screw.
It's not just that Amex is expensive and a PITA for the retailer, they're also grossly uncompetitive and irresponsible. You just can't win against Amex when you're the retailer. Walk into my store, buy 2,000$ of techno-crap, I'll make a copy of your drivers' license. 30 days later you call Amex and make up a story, they refund the money and you keep the goods. I send Amex my copy of your ID, proof that you were physically in my store, along with a complete listing of what you bought including serial numbers. 75% of the time Amex will still reverse the charge and you essentially stole my goods. Retailer stops accepting Amex and lives happily ever after. Their thinking is that it is far more profitable for them to keep you as an interest-paying customer than to respect my business and the painful lengths I take to cover my ass.
Even better, I had a friend who worked in a gas station back in our college days. He had people doing chargebacks on gas, saying it wasn't their vehicle! I forget the numbers but it was something like 20 Amex to 1 Visa because Visa is obviously smart enough to know gasoline is non-refundable. You pump it, you drive off and you use it, it's gone! I mean seriously, If I had a stolen CC, the first thing I'd do is fill up my tank instead of ordering a pallet of laptops
-Billco, Fnarg.com
No, they're "that good".
I have no affiliation with them, just some very happy camera & telescope purchases. Myself, friends and family.
As I would guess that the party you have a problem with is in another state/commonwealth, you need to decide where to sue. Stores often have terms of agreements which attempt to limit disputes to the courts of their choosing, or often, to arbitration. On the Internet, these are usually not binding unless you were forced to click through them in agreement. If the pages you interacted with only had reference to a terms of agreement, with link perhaps, it is likely not binding on you. Just research one or two cases which agree with this point in case you need them when in court.
Small claims courts cost less than $100 to sue. D.C., iirc, costs $30 to file. There will likely be other costs, especially if you use the court to mail the process (see below), but all of it should be recoverable if you win.
One thing that may be important, research the company you dealt with on your state/commonwealth's secretary of state site to determine if they registered as doing business - if so, there should be at least one individual listed as a contact. Check also for the state/commonwealth in which they are located. Include these individuals, if any, in your suit. The idea being, if the person dissolves the company after your suit, you can follow him/her individually without resuing.
Filing is the easy part. Next comes the service of process (giving a copy of the complaint to the party you're suing) which can be difficult. There are generally different ways to do this - (1) by hand to the person sued, (2) by hand to someone at the residence of the person sued, (3) by attaching it to the door of the residence of the person sued, (4) by mail. The rules of the court in which you sued will tell you which ways are possible. You can't generally do it yourself in person, since you're a party. Courts also generally have restrictions on who else can deliver the process, such as they have to live or work in the court's jurisdiction.
Further, the court may require that you attempt service according to a certain heirarchy (first in person, then to residence, then by mail, etc.), but there may be a 'curing statute' such as in VA where service of process, even if not done by following the heirarchy, is ok if the person sued actually got notice. If it turns out that you are suing somebody out of state/commonwealth and require hand service, there are people who do this for a living (and will take pictures of their doing it for proof).
Once you have good service, you can go to trial. If the party you sued is a scammer, he/she won't likely show up, especially if you're in another state/commonwealth. In this case, so long as you have some evidence (e.g. copy of your purchase confirmation and your testimony that the item didn't come), you will win. U.S. courts are very tough on enforcing contracts and a sales agreement is a contract even if there is no writing involved.
When you have a judgement in your state/commonwealth, you then need to get it enforced. If the other person lives elsewhere, you have to sue again there to get the judgement transferred. The good thing is that they can usually no longer dispute anything that occurred in the first suit since they had notice and thus, opportunity to dispute it earlier. You will get a judgement, and can get an order to the sheriff to enforce it.
This would likely be a pain, if your location and the party sued is far apart. One option might be to sell the judgement, such as to a collection firm. You won't get even close to full value, but should be better off than if you hadn't sued.
It would be cool if /.ers would form a network and help each other out in such cases for a cut of the judgement. Really, these scammers operate on the principle that most people will drop the issue as too time-consuming and expensive, and most do. The more people who don't, the more likelihood that read damage is done to the scammers and they may go away.
I am not a