360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem

simple solution.. by mustafap · 2006-01-02 01:19 · Score: 5, Insightful

Just make a copy of it first, and play the copy inste... ah. silly me.

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Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com

Re:simple solution.. by Fred+Or+Alive · 2006-01-02 01:27 · Score: 1

Even if you could, we're talking about a rental service, so it's not your game to copy.

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10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU "; 20 GOTO 10
Re:simple solution.. by alexhs · 2006-01-02 01:27 · Score: 5, Interesting

Only one comment and someone already came with the same point I would have written...
But I don't think it's funny, it's just the normal use of a backup copy...
GameFly shouldn't charge its customers but instead ask the game editor for a disk replacement. After all, they're not buying discs but licenses, right ?

--
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
Re:simple solution.. by mustafap · 2006-01-02 01:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

>so it's not your game to copy.

I completely agree it's not mine to copy, but it will become mine pretty damned quickly if I scratch it. And I bet I would be charged the full game price as a replacement.

Maybe the rental company should have backups. Kind of makes me nervous about renting games now.

--
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
Re:simple solution.. by dow · 2006-01-02 01:48 · Score: 1

There used to be some games on the Amiga that suggested as the new owner of the game that the first thing you should do is make a copy of the game disks and play from those instead. Gunship 2000 I think was one, but I can't actually remember as I had a hard disk which made needing the disks at all unessesary. You would think I would have had a disk full of borrowed software, but you'd be wrong.
Re:simple solution.. by chrismcdirty · 2006-01-02 01:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

You're paying for a license to play the game until you need a backup copy of the game. But when you do need a copy, you're suddenly paying for the physical media.

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It's like sex, except I'm having it!
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 01:53 · Score: 2, Informative

Unless the x360 changed that, console games are NOT licensed, they are bought. There is no EULA in console games and the only contract applying to them is the sales contract.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by sqlrob · 2006-01-02 01:57 · Score: 3, Informative

No EULA? No click-through is more accurate.

Go look in the back of the manual.
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:00 · Score: 0

policy says 'replacement fee' not 'full purchase price'. It's reasonable to think you'd be charged for the media plus s/h. And, as a company, you can choose to pass this to the customer responsible for the damage after one fair warning. After all if you have a deffective console you want the issue solved before the warranty expires.
Re:simple solution.. by cgenman · 2006-01-02 02:06 · Score: 1

Not to derail your point, which is well taken, but they're probably just sending them off to be resurfaced. DVD resurfacing is a well-known trade, and professional no-risk resurfacing can cost 5 - 10 dollars. I'm guessing GameFly would have volume discount relationships with resurfacing vendors to drive that down a bit, or has bought their own professional resurfacing machine for 2 - 20k and has figured out how to use it.

I seriously doubt that the scratching gets bad enough to penetrate to the data layer, so they shouldn't need to re-buy.

--
The ______ Agenda
Re:simple solution.. by bigman2003 · 2006-01-02 02:08 · Score: 1

I don't think that any of the game publishers would want to cooperate with Gamefly. This is exactly the type of business that loses the publishers money.

I would guess that I would get better service calling about a disk with an error than Gamefly would.

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No reason to lie.
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:09 · Score: 0

Or not, I don't see how they can enforce something you haven't even seen much less read or agreed to.
Re:simple solution.. by alexhs · 2006-01-02 02:11 · Score: 1

You're paying for a license to play the game until you need a backup copy of the game. But when you do need a copy, you're suddenly paying for the physical media.

What I meant is that if you're technically denied the legal (*) right to make backup copies, you should be entitled the right to get a new copy if the original one is damaged without paying for a 2nd license. Now of course it would be OK to pay the nickel that costs the media, you're paying it anyway when making a backup by yourself, but the cost is so low it would be good PR to give it for free.

(*) I'm somewhat confused, it's legal in some countries like France and Canada, but is it in the U.S. ?

--
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
Re:simple solution.. by sqlrob · 2006-01-02 02:11 · Score: 1

Shrinkwrap licenses have been upheld recently with the printer decision (Lexmark, IIRC)
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 02:17 · Score: 1

No, nothing there. Maybe a notice on the rating system or (less and less common) the developer credits but nothing that would qualify as an EULA.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 02:19 · Score: 2, Informative

Lexmark sold ink cartridges for a reduced price if the user agreed to returning the empty cartridge to Lexmark afterwards. This was a special offer known at the time of purchase. I.e. that'd be a contract between you and Lexmark established when you buy the product. You can choose not to agree to that and pay the regular price instead.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by JLennox · 2006-01-02 02:27 · Score: 2, Informative

Block Buster did attempt to start using flash carts for the Genesis console prior to its death. The idea never set foot, and I'm not sure if this is due to legal reasons, but they did, of course, intend to own proper lisencing for all of these games.
Re:simple solution.. by sqlrob · 2006-01-02 02:30 · Score: 2, Informative

What game did you look at?

I double checked San Andreas before posting, and I remember seeing it in Champions of Norrath.

In San Andreas, it's the section labelled "Warranty".
Re:simple solution.. by alexhs · 2006-01-02 02:35 · Score: 1

> I don't think that any of the game publishers would want to cooperate with Gamefly.

It's not about cooperation but law...

(pasting from another of my comments in that thread)
If you're technically denied the legal (*) right to make backup copies, you should be entitled the right to get a new copy if the original one is damaged without paying for a 2nd license.

But rental shops probably do not get the same terms of license than the usual customer (they aren't exactly "End User"), and my percedent post is consequently probably somewhat off-base.

(*) I'm somewhat confused, it's legal in some countries like France and Canada, but is it in the U.S. ?

--
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:48 · Score: 1, Insightful

GameFly could make it's own copies and send those out. Then scratches would only cost another blank media and some burning time. As long as they manage their media versus licenses/ownership, it'd be fair-use, right? The question would be how they handle a customer who doesn't return their rental? Or maybe they'd get lots of calls that "the disc got scratched, so I destroyed it, go ahead and charge me $1 for the media". And video rentals could work the same. In fact, it'd allow a rental store that's "never out of stock, we'll burn a copy while you wait."

Anyone have data on re-rental, meaning the same person/account? Assuming it's quite low, the competitive advantage of offering 'lifetime rentals' might easily outweigh a doubling (or even trebling, if you are greedy) of rental price, yielding mutual benefit to the rental customer, rental agency, and content provider. Home copying doesn't detract from this, there'd be even less incentive to have a friend burn a copy when you could have a legitimate one.

Until then, let's throw them in jail.
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:51 · Score: 1, Insightful

But rental shops probably do not get the same terms of license than the usual customer (they aren't exactly "End User")

Well, they bought the disc, so that should make them the end-user. They just happen to be using them to make money.
Re:simple solution.. by alexhs · 2006-01-02 02:54 · Score: 1

I didn't know about that resurfacing technique, but my guess is that they don't do that : it's apparently cheaper to manufacture a DVD than to resurface it. I would reserve resurfacing for discs containing unique data that have no backup.

My guess is that they get a special deal from the game editor (they're paying a lot more than you and me for the license, they aren't "end-user"), and can get cheap replacement discs.

--
I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
Re:simple solution.. by Pr0Hak · 2006-01-02 03:13 · Score: 4, Insightful

Just because you don't click "I Agree" to a license agreement does not mean that the work has no protections under copyright law. Although there is no contract between you and the publisher, what you have purchased is the media and the right to access the copyrighted work on the media -- you can't legally go out and make copies of the game for all your buddies anymore than you can legally make and give away a bunch of copies of a book you have purchased from a bookstore.
Re:simple solution.. by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 03:18 · Score: 1

Unless the x360 changed that, console games are NOT licensed, they are bought. There is no EULA in console games and the only contract applying to them is the sales contract.
Really? If that was true then I would be free to reverse-engineer and modify the game as I see fit. Much like a car that I buy then can modify and resell all or portions thereof.

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:simple solution.. by i_am_db · 2006-01-02 03:29 · Score: 1

Shhhhhhh!!! Don't give the car companies any ideas -- they might start going after the chip makers who make high-performance, replacement ECU chips!
Re:simple solution.. by MindStalker · 2006-01-02 03:39 · Score: 1

YOU may not have a EULA on your console game, but you can bet that a game rental company such as GameFly does have a contract. Generally these companies buy games at a higher cost for the right to rent them, as well replacements for damages at a reasonable cost is generally included in their contract.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 03:39 · Score: 2

Can't say I've bought either of those but I've checked enough games the last few times this topic popped up. I think you have to write "To use the included product you must agree to the included EULA" on the box for console software as it can not be "reasonably expected" (the term the judge used in the last pro-EULA ruling) to be bound by such a contract to even give it a chance in court and since the software doesn't ask you to agree you can just say "I refused to agree to that" (since agreement to the contract implies the ability to use the software but not the other way around).

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 03:50 · Score: 1

Although there is no contract between you and the publisher, what you have purchased is the media and the right to access the copyrighted work on the media

No you didn't. Copyright is the right to control who gets to copy your work, nothing else. Anyone can use the work however they see fit (I'm not sure about public performance and how that's handled but I'd guess that falls under distribution) as long as they don't copy it. The right to use something is granted by the owner (in this case the owner of the copy), not the copyright holder.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 03:54 · Score: 1

Aren't you? Of course you're only allowed to modify the copy you bought, not a copy thereof (i.e. you have to etch your mods into the disc directly), otherwise you fall afoul of the copy right. AFAIK it's not legal to build an exact copy of your car, either (copyrights, patents get in the way).

You can also resell the disc or any part of it (good luck finding a buyer for half a DVD, though maybe selling the manual or box could fetch a few bucks from some people). Where's your problem?

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 03:57 · Score: 1

Which I doubt is the same as an EULA. Can anyone (who has dealt with rental contracts) confirm or deny whether that contract makes the IP licensed instead of the copy sold?

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by IamTheRealMike · 2006-01-02 04:00 · Score: 1

I completely agree it's not mine to copy, but it will become mine pretty damned quickly if I scratch it. And I bet I would be charged the full game price as a replacement. Maybe the rental company should have backups. Kind of makes me nervous about renting games now.

It'll only become yours if the rental company is badly run and doesn't care about customer loyalty - a smart rental agency that has this problem will do what GameFly are doing and only charge you if you repeatedly rent disks that you know may get scratched by your defective hardware. And if they are charging the full price of the game, then they need to look at their own management or suppliers.
I really love how a simple hardware/economics problem has been turned into "DRM is evil" by the Slashdot crowd here. As if renting games would make economic sense without copy protection (even a leaky form) - it would become equivalent to simply buying the game, but at a fraction of the original price.
Re:simple solution.. by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 04:13 · Score: 1

With a car I can pull out the engine and sell it. Then I can insert a new different engine, make some modifications then sell the entire new car.
If I truly owned the software outright, I should be able to do the same thing: rip out the graphics engine, sell it, then insert my own engine and resell the game.
AFAIK it's not legal to build an exact copy of your car, either (copyrights, patents get in the way
No, its perfectly legal for me to buy all of the pieces of a car, assemble it then resell it. I just have to disclose that is what I did (I can't pretend there's a warranty for example).

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:simple solution.. by kabz · 2006-01-02 04:44 · Score: 1

Yep, and anyone who'd ever heard the grinding, shuddering and slowing down/speeding up of those Amiga drives would know why. Almost as bad as those awful Apple II floppies.

It's hard to believe anyone ever trusted those things with any data at all. Thank goodness for USB drives.

--
-- "It's not stalking if you're married!" My Wife.
Re:simple solution.. by big_scary_robot · 2006-01-02 04:45 · Score: 1

And don't forget, for the rental company to buy a game cost more that a regular copy of the game, if i remeber correctly.
Re:simple solution.. by JFitzsimmons · 2006-01-02 05:08 · Score: 1

Why the fuck would they do that? If they started putting legal restrictions on what could be done with their cars then they'd lose the "performance" section of the market to another company with no such restrictions. It isn't like car companies are somehow losing money from having their onboard computers replaced by a higher performance part - or anything replaced for that matter; the customer still had to start with something stock and as far as the car company is concerned a sale is a sale.

--
Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. -Anonymous
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:33 · Score: 0

What kind of lunatic would pay 5-10 dollars to re-surface a disc that costs mere cents to produce?
Re:simple solution.. by Roxton · 2006-01-02 05:40 · Score: 1

It's true. You'd figure if anyone would get a nice discount for replacing scratched discs, it would be Blockbuster Video, but in reality those guys just eat the cost.
Re:simple solution.. by Infe · 2006-01-02 05:51 · Score: 1

> I really love how a simple hardware/economics problem has been turned into "DRM is evil" by the Slashdot crowd here. As if renting games would make economic sense without copy protection (even a leaky form) - it would become equivalent to simply buying the game, but at a fraction of the original price.

Ya mean like rented DVDs? Obviously that's taken off horribly...that is the whole point, after all. Most people are simply not thieves, and those that are, you're not stopping anyway with invasive DRM.

--
Posted by yintercept - "...science...[is] the study of the 'divine creation.' "
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:58 · Score: 0

they're paying a lot more than you and me for the license
No they're not. Rental shops are buying the same product at the same price (well, probably cheaper through their distributor) as you and I. They're not "licensing" anything, as games, like movies and books are sold and not licensed. There is no legal distinction between an "end user" and someone who rents out games/videos. You have the same rights to rent out your collection as they do. Most people who get this confused are still hung up on the VHS "priced for rental" concept of the 80's and 90's. A VHS movie that was "priced for rental" was just priced very high, usually $100 or so. This was the price for everyone, not just rental shops. It was referred to as "priced for rental" because it was expected that only rental shops would pay the outrageous price for the video.
Re:simple solution.. by Infe · 2006-01-02 05:59 · Score: 1

You know, you do raise interesting points. Of course that manufacturer would want to stop all modifications to their cars. This would force you to go to the dealer to have everything (including repairs) done. They could theoretically put DRM chips on all car parts, but you are right, they would then dissolve due to competition. But the reverse is happening on the computer front, where ALL the content companies are in my eyes "colluding" so that competition on the open use front isn't even taking place. I mean if I take a Disney movie, and turn it into a spoof and resell it, as long as I bought one copy of each Disney movie before I editted it and resold it, why should Disney care, right? After all, if you mess up a Ford truck and resell it as a Ford truck, doesn't that mess up Ford's good name as well? Just some irritated thoughts, I hope they came out well enough.

--
Posted by yintercept - "...science...[is] the study of the 'divine creation.' "
Re:simple solution.. by Dylan+Zimmerman · 2006-01-02 06:06 · Score: 1

In the U.S., we have a provision called Fair Use in our copyright laws that allows for ... well ... fair use. Specifically, it allows people to make backup copies of works. Fair Use also applies to parody and citing within other works.

Unfortunately, we now have the nastiness that is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which allows content providers to use digital means to prevent the creation of any copies, essentially letting them do an end-run around Fair Use. Breaking these digital protections, telling others how to break them, and distributing devices designed to break them are all crimes under this act. Thus, in order to exercise my Fair Use rights guaranteed me under copyright law, I now must become a criminal.

This is why technically, removing that Sony rootkit is illegal in the United States. Hopefully that fiasco will help show lawmakers just how ill-willed all of this digital "protection" nonsense really is. I doubt it will, but I can still hope.
Re:simple solution.. by Lusa · 2006-01-02 06:14 · Score: 1

Almost sounds similar to the copy protection used on C64 disk games. The head of the 1541 drive would be knocked (ungently) out of alignment to read parts of the disk.
Re:simple solution.. by JFitzsimmons · 2006-01-02 06:23 · Score: 1

Well in theory, eventually everything that disney creates should eventually be open for customization by everyone, including a "spoof" as you call it... but that never happens because copyright law keeps getting extended whenever Mickey Mouse is close to expiring again. That has nothing to do with the analogy though.

--
Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. -Anonymous
Re:simple solution.. by Sigma+7 · 2006-01-02 06:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

There used to be some games on the Amiga that suggested as the new owner of the game that the first thing you should do is make a copy of the game disks and play from those instead. Gunship 2000 I think was one, but I can't actually remember as I had a hard disk which made needing the disks at all unessesary. You would think I would have had a disk full of borrowed software, but you'd be wrong.

Anyone who has an Amiga would know that a massive number of copied disks is not an issue.

I had an Amiga 500 at home - while I haven't heard of as many horror stories as some other people mentioned, I do know that disks inserted into the computer have a slightly higher rate of collecting errors. Most likely, errors are caused by ejecting disks, since it seems that the drive head was originally in contact with the disk in question (and that the default OS for the Amiga is known to spontaneously read the disk suddenly.)

These aren't errors of death - it's eventually a bad sector that manifests itself after seveal months of use. When compared to IBM computers and other modern computers, the disks seem to have about half to a third of the lifespan, mainly because the drive head is in greater contact with the disk during ejection sequence.
Re:simple solution.. by honkycat · 2006-01-02 06:56 · Score: 1

And I'll bet my hat that if you can do this by cutting apart the disc that contains the graphics engine and gluing it together with the part of another disc that contains game data, no one will be able to sue you when you sell the resulting product. No fair making a copy for commercial purposes and putting it on to a new disc, that'd be illegal.
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:01 · Score: 0

Lexmark sold ink cartridges for a reduced price if the user agreed to returning the empty cartridge to Lexmark afterwards. This was a special offer known at the time of purchase. I.e. that'd be a contract between you and Lexmark established when you buy the product. You can choose not to agree to that and pay the regular price instead.
That is, if by "reduced price" you mean "regular price", and by "regular price" you mean "artificially inflated price".
Re:simple solution.. by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 07:08 · Score: 1

You're treating the product as just the physical media which it obviously isn't.

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:simple solution.. by honkycat · 2006-01-02 07:22 · Score: 1

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. The one thing that seems crystal clear is that it's illegal to make a copy of the data on the disc and sell that copy.

If you are buying a license to use the data and somehow that license prevents you from selling the disc, then ok, you can't cut it up and resell a modified disc. As far as I know, however, no one is currently arguing that you can't sell your used copy of an xbox game. At least, no one who is being taken seriously.

Regardless, you don't have a legal right to copy the data in any case. A license to use the software doesn't grant you license to duplicate it. You can debate whether this is ethical, but the law is not really vague on this point.
Re:simple solution.. by buffer-overflowed · 2006-01-02 07:27 · Score: 1

No, from what I've seen, the 360 doesn't cause any topfoil damage, so resurfacing should fix the disc.

The problem is a defect in what I presume to be all 360s, in the drive. If you rotate it from horizontal to vertical, vertical to horizontal, or give it a good bounce while it's horizontal, the disc makes contact with one of the drive components and it puts a nice scratch into it. There's a warning in the manual. Do not rotate 360 while it's in operation or something like that.

So long as you're aware of the problem, it's fairly easy to work around. Keep your 360 vertical, or if you have it horizontal don't lead a circus through your house while it's running.

They'll hopefully have it fixed by V2, but it's not that huge of a deal atm, so long as you're aware of the problem and what causes it.

--
The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
Re:simple solution.. by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 07:37 · Score: 1

Well the original poster was trying to say that Microsoft no longer licenses the games on XBox (like every other piece of software) but actually sells if to you so you 'own' it. I was pointing out by analogy that this world be highly unlikely.

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 08:01 · Score: 1

Why would it be unlikely? It's only unlikely if we assume that a sale also grants you the copyright on the data on the medium which is obviously not the case. If you buy a book you're not free to just copy half of it and sell that but you're free to rip out pages and sell those (provided you find a buyer). If you buy a music CD you're not free to take random tracks out of there, burn them on a CD (even remixes thereof) and sell that. What you're creating by making a copy and modifying that is a derivative work as opposed to a modification to the original work. It doesn't matter that a game has more value than just the medium, what you buy is the medium and you can use it in any way you see fit as long as you don't copy it.

Besides, you are NOT legally allowed to build a copy of your car, that's a violation of at least the copyright on the car design, if not countless patents (which you'd get past if you bought those parts from the manufacturer but we're talking about building it yourself).

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 08:13 · Score: 1

Except an EULA would be useless for them as EULAs forbid rent or lease.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by wayoutwest · 2006-01-02 08:24 · Score: 1

Full game price is all of 15% over cost. there isn't alot of margin for retailers on the game or any thing in the industry.

Just don't stand it upright, and no more scratched discs.

===========
Great Giggles - check out this auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item =8247683126
Re:simple solution.. by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 08:29 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well it seems that the XBox does not ship with a EULA, but Microsoft is acting like it does: http://xbox-linux.sourceforge.net/docs/remotedelet e.html
Could be a difference between U.S. and Canadian laws. Microsoft seems do be depending on the Digital Millennium Copyright Act which is not applicable in Canada.
Besides, you are NOT legally allowed to build a copy of your car, that's a violation of at least the copyright on the car design, if not countless patents (which you'd get past if you bought those parts from the manufacturer but we're talking about building it yourself).
So you're saying that all of the kit car resources such as this one http://www.kitcarsales.co.uk/ are illegal?

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:simple solution.. by Dare+nMc · 2006-01-02 08:40 · Score: 1

>I really love how a simple hardware/economics problem has been turned into "DRM is evil"
CLUE: DRM is a simple economics problem /CLUE
in this case most people with this problem would not be renting the games, and their would be no simple gurantee that it will be replaced by anyone once destroyed, this is exactly what backups are about.
The DRM rants here, are about a particular implimentation by MSFT that allows no backups of any kind to things you purchased, without a policy to allow you to recover what you purchased if lost. This is particuarly harsh even in the DRM world.
Re:simple solution.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 09:13 · Score: 0

I'm a little confused: if rental places are charged the same for DVDs, why do quite a few film DVDs in my collection have the words "NOT FOR RENTAL" emblazened on them? That to me suggests that the "retail copy" (that presumes I now own the film, but I don't - only a licence to view the film, contrary to the ads) is cheaper than the "rental copy"; which makes sense if you consider that each rental copy is going to be viewed by more than one "purchaser" - the rental version is considered as being more for public performance. I presume something similar with games.

Just a thought: if I were to purchase one copy, sell it to someone at price A and then buy it back at price B, with B less than A, and repeat the transaction with someone else with the same prices, would I require a rental or retail copy?
Re:simple solution.. by jZnat · 2006-01-02 09:57 · Score: 1

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and point out that many DVDs with horribly messed up DRM aren't even worth copying or watching more than once. Many movie rentals are just that because the consumer only wants to view it once. If the consumer enjoys the movie, then he or she will buy the movie. We're not criminals, yet the **AA assumes so.

--
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Re:simple solution.. by jZnat · 2006-01-02 10:01 · Score: 1

The EULA in the back of the manual is generally a "respect our copyright on this work" message that is as unnecessary to include as the "© $year" message on anything.

--
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Re:simple solution.. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 10:14 · Score: 1

Well it seems that the XBox does not ship with a EULA, but Microsoft is acting like it does

It could be argued that the device was used in a way outside of specification and therefore Microsoft can make no gurantees that the system will function the way the user intended. The XBox was designed to update properly provided the data on the HD complies with the device specifications. It was not a conscious decision of Microsoft to delete his data, it's a function built into his XBox. He could have modified the XBox to not change its firmware if it encounters updates since that update function is obviously not compatible with his other modifications and as such a bug he introduced into his system.

Car analogy: The maker isn't responsible if you modify part of the brakes but have mismatching fluid pipes somewhere that lead to the brakes failing.

Appliance analogy: The maker isn't responsible if you get electrocuted because you wired the toaster's power supply to its casing.

So you're saying that all of the kit car resources such as this one http://www.kitcarsales.co.uk/ are illegal?

If there's still copyright on those car designs and noone in the toolchain obtains a license from the car manufacturer, yes. Well, I'm not so sure about the website but the kits are. Other popular things like Fan Fiction fall afoul of copyright law as well but that doesn't mean anyone cares.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:simple solution.. by mdman · 2006-01-02 10:44 · Score: 1

This post was insitefull? Wow, the mods must have had a good new year!
Re:simple solution.. by mrchaotica · 2006-01-02 19:09 · Score: 1

As if renting games would make economic sense without copy protection (even a leaky form) - it would become equivalent to simply buying the game, but at a fraction of the original price.
Yeah, just like how since VHS tapes and DVDs don't have (significant) copy protection, renting them doesn't make economic sense either. Oh, wait...

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re:simple solution.. by Fartacus · 2006-01-03 01:49 · Score: 1

> Kind of makes me nervous about renting games now.

As a game developer, I'm happy that it makes you nervous about renting games.
Re:simple solution.. by Saige · 2006-01-03 08:14 · Score: 1

Go do that with a PS2. Tell me what happens there.

BTW, I'm not responsible for when you scratch a PS2 disk doing so.

I've had a number of people tell me the PS2 does the same thing. I don't get why this was never an issue for that console, however.

--
"You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do."
Re:simple solution.. by drgnvale · 2006-01-03 08:51 · Score: 1

I'd be happier if you just made games I'd want to own.
Re:simple solution.. by apoc06 · 2006-01-03 09:41 · Score: 1

while not the most scientific poll. i have ten or so friends that have their PS2s vertical just like mine... never had the problem. sorry. keep mine vertical on hardwood floors. bumps, vibrations et. al... never a scratched disc. ESP not like the ones ive seen for the x360.

so perhaps theyve ironed out whatever kink may have done this in earlier versions of the console. if its already been ironed out, one would think MS could do the same for the x360. it almost sounds as bad as the whole square button on the PSP debacle [which theyve fixed as well] the point is if you complain loud enough, companies WILL listen. the squeaky wheel does get the grease eventually.... sometimes...
Re:simple solution.. by buffer-overflowed · 2006-01-03 11:17 · Score: 1

I'd love to go test it on a PS2, but PS2 #3 is dead. It has ceased to be. It is an ex-console. Killed before it's time by bargain bin optics.

I don't remember any of my PS2s ever scratching disks like the 360 does(although I did once have a PC CD-ROM literally shatter a disk). Of course I also never reoriented the console while it was running, nor did I invite a circus through my house. I don't think it would cause as much damage if I did do those things however. The PS2's drive assembly is like 99% bargain bin plastic. I'd be more worried about the CD damaging the drive than the other way around.

--
The key to the enjoyment of pop music is to replace any instance of "love" with "C.H.U.D."
Re:simple solution.. by Syrrh · 2006-01-05 12:37 · Score: 1

I'm a little lost.

How exactly does DRM come into it? If I run a rented game through my Wob-lo-matic DVD rewinder at max speed for a couple hours before sending it back and it gets scratched, how is that different than sticking a VHS tape in the Melt-o-tron and doing the same thing until it's unusable?

Heck, give them credit for at least sending out a warning instead of charging immediately. Beats having to toss the return envelope under a tire so you can pass the blame to postal damage, maybe there really is a detectable pattern of scratches they're finding.

Whoa... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:21 · Score: 5, Funny

Would you please stop ridiculing XBox360 fanboys?

I've spend $400 on that console and don't want to hear bad news about it.

Re:Whoa... by jo42 · 2006-01-02 02:43 · Score: 0, Troll

> I've spend $400
Once again, proving without a doubt, that a fool and their money are soon parted.
Re:Whoa... by rbochan · 2006-01-02 03:09 · Score: 1, Troll

And I'm sure that Microsoft thanks you graciously for paying $400 for the privilege of being a beta tester.

--
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
Re:Whoa... by floodo1 · 2006-01-02 12:19 · Score: 0

Would you please stop asking me to stop ridiculing you?

I knew not to spend $400 on that console and i want to hear bad news about it. :)

--
I KUT J00 M4NG!!!

Walmart took back my scratched disk... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:22 · Score: 4, Informative

Just an FYI. I don't know if they will still do that, but their 'accept all return' policy is handy for this...

Re:Walmart took back my scratched disk... by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 05:11 · Score: 1

I'll bet they do. For as much as some people hate Wal-Mart, I think they have the best customer service on the planet. They'd have no qualms about telling MS to take their disks back - at MS's expense - and fix the problem before it inconveniences any more of Wal-Mart's customers. It's not like MS is going to pull their products from the largest retail chain (or allow them to be pulled because they can't meet quality demands).
Side note: I just got back from Buffalo, NY, and had to stop in to a Wal-Mart there to buy some odds and ends. If that's what they look like elsewhere, no wonder so many people hate them. The stores in the cities I've lived in have cleaning supply budgets and aren't afraid to use them, and I'd always blindly assumed that was the case everywhere. My bad.

--
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:Walmart took back my scratched disk... by dangitman · 2006-01-02 11:37 · Score: 1

For as much as some people hate Wal-Mart, I think they have the best customer service on the planet.
You musn't have traveled very far, even within your own country, if you believe that.

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:Walmart took back my scratched disk... by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 11:55 · Score: 1

You musn't have traveled very far, even within your own country, if you believe that.
I'll put money on having been on more continents than you. ;-)
Anyway, returns make up about 95% of the after-sale service I need from a retailer. Wal-Mart excels at this. You're right, in the sense that they offer little pre-sale assistance. If you're the type who goes into a store already knowing exactly what you want to buy, though, then they're wonderful.

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:Walmart took back my scratched disk... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 14:29 · Score: 1, Insightful

Since when have they had an "accept ALL returns" policy? The Walmart in my area doesn't accept any CD if if it has been opened.
Re:Walmart took back my scratched disk... by JaxGator75 · 2006-01-03 05:57 · Score: 1

Sure they will. They will only exchange it for the same disc. Of course, they WILL take un-opened discs and exchange them for ANY other disc... So for persistent people, it's just an extra step. Target works the same way.

--
Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

More problems? by LoRdTAW · 2006-01-02 01:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

And I thought Microsoft has enough of a back eye with faulty power supplies, bad consoles and some people even having defective accessories like the hdd and wireless controllers. This 360 roll out looks to be seriously rushed in order to get a one up on Sony. Unfortunatly they keep tripping over there own feet.

Re:More problems? by interiot · 2006-01-02 01:32 · Score: 2, Funny

Their not the only ones tripping over they're own feat.
Re:More problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:44 · Score: 0

Just because the grandparent post used the wrong there, you decide to use the other two wrong!
Should have been modded "funny" :P
Re:More problems? by Tim+Browse · 2006-01-02 01:57 · Score: 4, Funny

and some people even having defective accessories like the hdd and wireless controllers.

You mean some people have bought accessories for a large scale global consumer product, and some of them are faulty?
Say it aint so! This is brand new information!
Re:More problems? by cheaphomemadeacid · 2006-01-02 01:58 · Score: 0

yeah! and that from a big respected company like microsoft, i'm shocked i say, shocked!
Re:More problems? by SuiteSisterMary · 2006-01-02 02:10 · Score: 5, Insightful

Yeah. Don't you just love how nobody mentions the massive flaws and return rates for the launches of the Playstation 1, the Dreamcast, and the Playstation 2?

--
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Re:More problems? by interiot · 2006-01-02 02:16 · Score: 1
I just find it funny that:
1. A lot of people who are not-so-important like to get their kicks by putting down others. Not to say that corporations are remotely perfect, but once internet posters get going, they have a tendency to go overboard.
2. "Unfortunatly they keep tripping over there own feet.", I mean, c'mon, how can that not be parodied? That was a perfect setup.
Re:More problems? by LoudMusic · 2006-01-02 02:33 · Score: 1

This 360 roll out looks to be seriously rushed in order to get a one up on Sony. Unfortunatly they keep tripping over there own feet.

Was there ever any doubt? You'd have to be crazy to buy a game console in the initial run. Unless it's Nintendo - they pretty much do their own thing (:

--
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Re:More problems? by Halfbaked+Plan · 2006-01-02 02:37 · Score: 1

Well, those weren't Popular Microsoft Products.

Nothing incites a slagfest at Slashdot like a popular product from Microsoft.

(There are a few, ya know)

--
resigned
Re:More problems? by douceur · 2006-01-02 02:48 · Score: 1

I bought the original Xbox the day it came out and the 360 just a week or so after it came out. I haven't had a single problem with either one yet. The large majority of people who own these consoles haven't had a single issue with them.
Re:More problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:15 · Score: 5, Informative

I picked up my Dreamcast the night of launch at around 12:15 AM. I got it home by 12:30 AM. Opened it up and got it hooked up by 12:40 AM. Put in Sonic the Hedgehog and couldn't get passed the setup dashboard. Put in Blue Stinger and had the same effect. System made grinding noises and shook when attempting to read either game. Took out the disk and noticed shearing marks across the surface. Packaged the system back up by 1:00 AM. Got back to the store at 1:15 AM. They were still open with a fairly sizable line out of the door. Walked in and returned it right then and there with a bunch of onlookers who were completely aghast. Got the replacement back home but decided that I really needed to get up for work at 6:00 AM so I went to bed.

The next day I managed to play Sonic the Hedgehog for about 20 minutes. Blue Stinger again wouldn't manage past the setup dashboard. In this case, however, there was no scratching. After the first game on Sonic I couldn't get it to load again. It took about a week to obtain a copy of Sonic the Hedgehog that would work reliably. No luck with Blue Stinger so I traded that out for something else entirely. Found out later that one of the three or four manufacturing plants that was pressing Dreamcast games was fucking them all up and about 66% of all Sonic the Hedgehogs was affected as well as nearly all Blue Stingers.

Launches go to shit sometimes. We in the US are often fairly shielded from this because Japan is oftentimes the guinea pig. We got to miss out on the majority of Nintendo and Playstation failures as a result. Playstation 2 had a bunch of problems, from overheating consoles to memory card corruption which led to DVD firmware corruption and the loss of the ability to play DVDs entirely. Those items were fixed by the time the console jumped the pond.

The moral of this story is that shit will always go wrong, the question is how badly. The Dreamcast launch was a total mess given the game fabrication SNAFU. The 360 launch is relatively quiet as a result, other than people trashing all things Microsoft. The quoted failure rate is around 2-3%, which is actually quite low. I don't even expect that high of a success rate when I purchase workstations in bulk (250 per order, expected failure rate around 5%, mostly due to hard drive failure, within the first month).
Re:More problems? by geminidomino · 2006-01-02 04:31 · Score: 1

What are you talking about? Both the Xbox and Gamecube fanboys LOVE to trot those out.
Re:More problems? by MeNeXT · 2006-01-02 04:41 · Score: 1

What is funny about your comment is that we have come to take it for granted. After all if your money had defects in it you would be taken straight to prison. No?

Does it not cost you to return the defective product? Why do we come to expect from certain industries garantees and others not? Why should we even be compensated for an overbooked flight or hotel room? Why are some industries more responsible than others?

--
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Re:More problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 04:48 · Score: 0

If you want quality gaming hardware I suggest PC or nintendo. And blue stinger was the first game I could get on my dreamcast, it worked fine but was an awful game so I traded it in for sonic.
Re:More problems? by Grave · 2006-01-02 04:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

Agreed. My first-run XBOX lasted for three years before finally giving out (which I suspect was due to the abuse of being transported back and forth to several different locations in a poorly-protected backpack). My first-run 360 has not given me any over-heating, disc scratching, or crashing issues (*knock on wood*).

The failure rate of original-design PS2s was much higher than the 360 from what I have been able to see. The only reason failures are getting so much attention is because of the very limited supply right now combined with a general anti-Microsoft hysteria that plagues Slashdot. Sony was getting trashed pretty thoroughly a few weeks ago though for rediculous copy-protection schemes. It would appear the only gaming company immune from this is Nintendo.

Optical drives were designed to be layed horizontal. They were not made to be moved around while in use. Keep those things in mind and I'd bet money that this disc scratching issue goes away.
Re:More problems? by John+Pfeiffer · 2006-01-02 07:00 · Score: 1

Actually, they're tripping over the inordinately large power supply.

*Recalls a rather humorous picture of '360-tan' straining against the cord of the massive powerbrick she's attached to*

--

Friend: "The NIC is misconfigured..." Me: "No prob, I'll just telnet in and fix it." *Silence*
Re:More problems? by johncadengo · 2006-01-02 07:27 · Score: 1

Are we all too young to remember the original NES Nintendo Entertainment System?

I couldn't start the thing half the time, and spent more time blowing into the cartridge than actually playing the game. I remember having to buy bottles of alcohol just to clean the cartridges. And I remember once taking apart my NES because something got stuck inside the cartridge loader. Ok, now. All systems have had their problems and we've all dealt with them before, are we too spoiled now to deal with an overheating problem?

I mean, when I first bought an AMD (It was the 1.2 Ghz Athlon) I had so many overheating problems but I dealt with it for the faster (for cheaper) processor. And now I have an AMD 64 3200+ and I still have trivial problems (at least compared to my Intel P4 2.4 GHZ) with overheating. But I deal with it. I paid less for a faster processor and I deal with it.

I'm tired of hearing about powersupply crap and now scratching? Uhm. There are solutions out there, explore them.

--
My page.
Re:More problems? by SillyNickName4me · 2006-01-02 09:23 · Score: 1

Optical drives were designed to be layed horizontal. They were not made to be moved around while in use. Keep those things in mind and I'd bet money that this disc scratching issue goes away.

Back in the first half of the 80s, the first CD player I had was a phillips portable CD player.. About the size of a stack of 5 cd jewel cases with a seperate battery pack or power adapter.

This thing had its problems, mostly with alignment of the optical pickup, and has been back for service some 4 or 5 times over the years.. on the other side, kept workign till the mid 90s, and never scratched a disc.

Portable players have become commonplace, CD systems for cars have become commonplace, many cd-rom and dvd-rom drives have small clamps on the disc holder so they can be used vertically without the disc dropping out when opening it, etc etc...

I'd say that there exist drives designed to be moved around and used in other positions then horizontally, and those have existed since the earliest days of consumer availability of compact discs at least. There is nothing in the gemeral design of optical drives (CD or DVD at least) that prevents it, but a specific drive has to be designed to handle it well.

Which reminds me, I have a late 80s high-end CD player from Kenwood that is built such that it is practically impossible for it to scratch a disc. Anything that could possibly come into contact with a disc is soft and rubbery where it needs to 'grab' the disc, or soft and almost frictionless otherwise. If that thing scratches a disc it is because of sand or dust from outside. Don't know why they went that far since this is not a device you are going to move around while its playing, but it is rather nice to think that even when the mechanics fail, it most likely won't destroy the disc in it.

Hmm, the point of my rant? drives damaging discs is something that should not happen, even when the drive is used on its side, moved around etc. It points at a drive thats either not designed very well, or more likely, badly manufactured.
Re:More problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 09:36 · Score: 0

I'm sure people did talk about those problems, when those consoles were launched. Now, the XBox 360 is being launched, it has problems, and people are talking about it. Why should anyone care about PlayStation 1 during the XBox 360 laucnh? Why stop there -- maybe we should make sure to mention that the Atari 2600 had problems when it was launched? Get over it. This is the news of the day, right now, today.

Or maybe we should just avoid talking about any problems that come up during the launch of a new console? The Coleco wasn't perfect when it came out, therefore, all future consoles are permitted to have problems and no one is allowed to talk about it when it happens.
Re:More problems? by Tim+Browse · 2006-01-02 12:18 · Score: 1

Consumer protection laws are pretty standard affairs. You buy something, and if it doesn't work, then you take it back and either get a replacement or a refund (depending on those local laws).
Anyone who's ever bought more than 3 things in their life probably knows this. You make it sound like you're stuck with some broken piece of equipment that you have to throw away the day after you bought it. Generally, this is not the case.
You might be willing to pay the premium for products that are absolutely 100% guaranteed to work when you get them home (let me know if you find one of those, btw), but most people aren't. The rest of us will take our chances and go back to the shop on the rare occasions when a product is non-functional/damaged. If we notice a particular brand tends to be broken/poorly designed, then we tend to avoid that brand in the future - assuming there are alternatives, of course. Which there almost always are. (Compensating someone if they have to return a $20 item like a memory stick comes under the heading of a price premium, btw.)
Otherwise you're doing something rather similar to complaining about the fact that you have to put your Ikea furniture together yourself.
Re:More problems? by E8086 · 2006-01-02 12:28 · Score: 1

"Keep those things in mind and I'd bet money that this disc scratching issue goes away."

How about more durable disks? TDK developed a nearly scratch proof disk coating. Yes, more expensive but prices drop as demand and production increase I might be willing to pay a few dollars more, 5, on a $50+ game if there was nearly no chance if it ever scratching. I am very careful with my DVDs and have never scratched one, but a little insurance can't hurt.

--
F7 doesn't work, ignore spelling and grammar
Re:More problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 13:16 · Score: 0

I really fail to see how spending $400 (plus tax plus games plus whatever) on a top-of-the-line console which overheats is analogous to buying a discount processor which is known to run at a hotter temperature. Here's a clue: If your PC doesn't have adequate cooling capabilities, it's going to overheat regardless of what processor you put in it, so make sure you factor this in when choosing your processor and and every other component. But what are you supposed to do with an XBox 360? Modify the hardware and void your warranty? Stick it in the fridge?

And tell me, what is the solution to a console that scratches your $60 discs? Send the console back and hope the replacement doesn't do the same thing and ruin another game? Stop putting discs in it and only use X-Box Live Arcade?

Yeah, we're too spoiled that we expect things to work as advertised. Give me a break. Why don't you go back to sucking Microsoft's dick and stop posting here, you useless fucking tool.
Re:More problems? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 13:31 · Score: 0

I'm sure people did talk about those problems, when those consoles were launched. Now, the XBox 360 is being launched, it has problems, and people are talking about it. Why should anyone care about PlayStation 1 during the XBox 360 laucnh? Why stop there -- maybe we should make sure to mention that the Atari 2600 had problems when it was launched? Get over it. This is the news of the day, right now, today.

Or maybe we should just avoid talking about any problems that come up during the launch of a new console? The Coleco wasn't perfect when it came out, therefore, all future consoles are permitted to have problems and no one is allowed to talk about it when it happens.
Re:More problems? by Sky+Cry · 2006-01-02 23:27 · Score: 1

So the 360 shortage might actually help Microsoft: they can fix more consoles.

Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by EvilCabbage · 2006-01-02 01:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

... gave them a huge black eye in the japanese market they never really recovered from over there.

Sucks to be in Microsoft hardware right about now, thought they would have learned their lesson five fucken' years ago.

Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by interiot · 2006-01-02 02:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sucks to be in Microsoft hardware right about now, thought they would have learned their lesson five fucken' years ago.
That the japanese market is extremely insular? You really can't compare incumbent Japanese companies to outside companies, and try to draw straightforward conclusions, because Japanese consumers in many markets prefer Japanese brands.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by richardablitt · 2006-01-02 02:09 · Score: 2, Insightful

From what I've heard, the lack of success in Japan comes from the games available for the 360. They tend to be more interested in strategy/rpgs rather than first person shooters.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by Achromatic1978 · 2006-01-02 02:27 · Score: 1

Yeah... and all those NFL/NHL/NBA franchise games, funnily enough, don't get much attention anywhere other than America, unsurprisingly. ;)
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 03:31 · Score: 1

Japanese consumers in many markets prefer Japanese brands.
Just as many Americans prefer to buy American brands. It's natural to be a bit nationalistic, although some people take it too far. Try driving a foreign car in Detroit. I've been deliberately cut off on the highway in a Mazda ( they tried to run me into a ditch) and a friend of mine had eggs thrown at her while she was in her Toyota.

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by earthbound+kid · 2006-01-02 04:15 · Score: 1

The iPod is trouncing Sony in Japan.

Consumers buy what consumers will buy.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by Plocmstart · 2006-01-02 04:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've experienced scratching on my original XBox. The only game that's caused this was DDR Ultramix 2. You may think well you were jumping around and that caused the lens to bounce up into the disc, but after I noticed the problem on my first disc I exchanged it for another copy. I put this new disc in a second Xbox I had, started a song I knew was skipping on the other disc and just listened to the XBox instead of jumping around on the pads. This second disc caused the drive to do the same thing again. So I copied it to the hard drive of my modded Xbox just to prevent any more disc scratching (and listened to it scratch the outer edge as it copied it over. There must be some poor encoding on the outer edge of some discs that causes these drives to shove the lense right up onto the disc surface... you'd think they would test these sort of things... guess not when they're rushing a product to market.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by jsight · 2006-01-02 04:59 · Score: 1

Just as many Americans prefer to buy American brands. It's natural to be a bit nationalistic, although some people take it too far. Try driving a foreign car in Detroit. I've been deliberately cut off on the highway in a Mazda ( they tried to run me into a ditch) and a friend of mine had eggs thrown at her while she was in her Toyota.

Do you have a bit of a complex? You do realize that Ford owns a fairly significant chunk of Mazda, right? I seriously doubt you getting cut off had anything to do with not driving an American car...

--
Throw the bums out!
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 05:21 · Score: 1

Do you have a bit of a complex? You do realize that Ford owns a fairly significant chunk of Mazda, right? I seriously doubt you getting cut off had anything to do with not driving an American car...

I don't have a complex, but you seem to. And seemingly you've never visited Detroit.
I'm fully aware that Mazda is owned mostly by Ford. And that my Mazda Tribute was made in the same American plant as the Ford Escape (great vehicles btw). But obviously people in Detroit don't seem to make that distinction. (Nor does the Mazda dealer as I had to pay import duty that I wouldn't of had to pay if I bought an Escape.)
I'm just recounting what happened to me when I was there. And I wasn't just cut off - the guy tried to push me into the shoulder when we were the only two cars in the vicinity on a three lane highway. I was warned about the consequences of renting a foreign car there before I went by several people.
Even if my experience was a coincidence, my friend in her Toyota got egged while waiting at a red light - that was deliberate.

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:34 · Score: 0

I can't speak for the Toyota but the running into the shoulder is probably because you are one of those people who visit this area and then can't freaking drive the speak limit which pisses us all off especially when you are driving to slow on one of the side lanes. Left is passing, right is enter and exit, stay the fuck off it if you only want to drive 50. And it goes to show your intelligence when you are calling the Escape which is a seriouslly under powered vechile for it's size which is fatal on the roads around here. Once you get on the freeways out here you better be going the at least the speed limit of 70MPH or you're going to be flatten by a semi barreling down the road.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by pnewhook · 2006-01-02 07:54 · Score: 1

No, that's not it at all. I live in a city about 5 times larger than Detroit - I know how to drive on a freeway.
People put out of work in Detroit are understandably pissed off and are simply venting their frustration in the wrong direction. Maybe you should consider that explanation before insulting someone simply because you are an asshole.

--
Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
Re:Same thing happened with the original Xbox... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-03 03:25 · Score: 0

Just as many Americans prefer to buy American brands.

Whoo, it took a while to stop laughing from this one!!!

If Americans prefer to buy US brands, then why is WalMart the #1 retailer in the US? Almost everything they sell is made in China, or Mexico. Who buys US goods? Electronics moved offshore, cars are crap, durable goods went to Mexico, small manufacturing went to China, software went to india and eastern europe.

And as for driving foreign cars in Detroit, I hope I get the chance. There isn't an American car made in Detroit (or anywhere else for that matter) that can catch my WRX, although I would love to see them try!

I wish... by Private+Taco · 2006-01-02 01:26 · Score: 2, Insightful

...I could fuck up things as often as Micro$oft and still pull in metric tons of money...

--
If I could, I'd destroy you all.

Re:I wish... by ozmanjusri · 2006-01-02 01:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

I could fuck up things as often as Micro$oft and still pull in metric tons of money.

That's the problem with them, and why so many of us are critical of them. They fuck things up, and we have to keep paying for it with our time, expertise and cash. It's called an abuse of monopoly power.

--
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Re:I wish... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:12 · Score: 1

You are acting as if alternative consoles do not exist. You have a *choice* of other consoles.
Re:I wish... by JDooty1234 · 2006-01-02 02:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

How did this comment get modded "Insightful"? Seriously, Microsoft has to have done something right to have come this far and have as much force as they do in the market, even if it's not video games and hardware that they excel at. Among questionable business practices and glaringly lacking browser functionality, there are some redeeming qualities.

I wish I could own a company that, even though tons of idiots deride my success, can continue to succeed and innovate as much (or as little) as Microsoft.
Re:I wish... by StarvingSE · 2006-01-02 02:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

Easy problem to solve... don't be an early adopter. Wait until the reviews/problem reports come out. Then decide whether or not you want to purchase the product. I'm sure the Xbox 360 will be fine a year from now after this public beta test.

--
I got nothin'
Re:I wish... by cloudmaster · 2006-01-02 03:35 · Score: 1

Among questionable business practices and glaringly lacking browser functionality, there are some redeeming qualities.

Yeah, the best way to prove that is to specifically list problems and then vaugely say that "there are some redeeming qualities" without listing any of those. :)

What they did "right" was to get license agreements with large comapnies, out-market IBM when OS/2 was a viable alternative, and then redo their look-n-feel just a little every few years so people would have some compulsion to upgrade.
Re:I wish... by gstoddart · 2006-01-02 04:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

How did this comment get modded "Insightful"? Seriously, Microsoft has to have done something right to have come this far and have as much force as they do in the market, even if it's not video games and hardware that they excel at. Among questionable business practices and glaringly lacking browser functionality, there are some redeeming qualities.

Well, it all started when they signed an onerous monopoly licensing agreement with IBM that said their OS would be distributed with all machines, and that everyone had to pay them wether or not they wanted it. Then they made boat loads of money.

They've steadily been putting out incremental, costly upgrades to work out the shoddy workmanship since. This made them further boat loads of money. It eventually took a lawsuit to be able to buy a PC without Microsoft being paid as well -- you remember that, right?

Now, they use all of those boat loads of money to move into markets and basically take them over. There have been tons of examples of better quality products being pushed out of the market by Microsoft overwhelming them. (Either by buying them, stealing their technology, making their OS incompatible, not adhering to standards, or just playing the waiting game of who could afford to lose the most money in a market segment.)

Microsoft has made an industry out of selling shoddy/first version products that eventually get upgraded to reasonable products through a long and costly upgrade cycle, and convincing everyone along the way it was all for the best.

As much as it always sounds like people are just bashing Microsoft because they can, it is perfectly insightful of the poster to point out that Microsoft can continue to keep putting out dodgy stuff and still make oodles of money -- they've always done so.

Microsoft can perpetuate itself because it has such a huge war chest, and a guaranteed revenue stream from upgrades and new customers who don't seem to have options, or don't know better when they do.

You may personally disagree with the sentiment, but having been watching it happen for the last 20 years, that's how it seems to have played out to me.

--
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Re:I wish... by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 05:27 · Score: 1

Among questionable business practices and glaringly lacking browser functionality, there are some redeeming qualities.
Like what? Really: name one. I've never seen a single MS product succeed because it was better than the competition. Their sales and marketing departments are second to none - I'll grant you that - but that's about the best I can say for them.
Oh, scratch that. They also make good mice.

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:I wish... by NotBorg · 2006-01-02 06:39 · Score: 1

"Seriously, Microsoft has to have done something right to have come this far [...]"

I don't know that I would necessarily call it right. If right simply means successful then I could be a very right drug dealer.

It's not their success that our ideological "idiots" wish to "deride." It's the methodology that consistently leaves the customer with less than their money's worth that idiots like me have a problem with.

(FWIW, I'm with you that the parent post was far less than insightful.)

--
I want this account deleted.
Re:I wish... by toddestan · 2006-01-02 06:56 · Score: 1

...I could fuck up things as often as Micro$oft and still pull in metric tons of money...

Actually, Microsoft has been losing money like crazy with their XBox division.

Of course, you still have a point when it comes to Windows and Office.
Re:I wish... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 06:57 · Score: 0

I've never seen a single MS product succeed because it was better than the competition.

Office or Exchange Server?
Re:I wish... by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 07:15 · Score: 1

Office or Exchange Server?
You honestly think Office was better than Lotus (or, more commonly, that Word was better than WordPerfect)? That Exchange was better than, well, anything?
If it weren't for the MS monopoly, no one would ever have heard of either of those products, which were clearly inferior to the competition at the time.

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:I wish... by GeekyMike · 2006-01-02 08:23 · Score: 1

I actually like the way XP handles driver installation, pulling the new drivers from the internet and not forcing you to dig through piles of CDs or dead links on driver sites. Of course, sometimes it doesnt work right, but for the most part it does. Makes troubleshooting other people's pc's much easier. Thank you Micro$oft.

--
Beware the fury of a patient man
- John Dryden
Re:I wish... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 08:28 · Score: 0

That was then and this is now. Back in the DOS days WordPerfect was better, but right now I think that Office is better than any other suite available. Same thing with Exchange, it used to suck. But right now there are only a handful of products that can compete.
Re:I wish... by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 08:31 · Score: 1

I actually like the way XP handles driver installation, pulling the new drivers from the internet and not forcing you to dig through piles of CDs or dead links on driver sites.
I'll give them that: they're finally adopting the distribution model that Free Unix users had for years. Credit where credit is due and all that.

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:I wish... by jZnat · 2006-01-02 10:16 · Score: 1

I like how Linux comes with built-in support for nearly all hardware you'll ever use. Then how distros of it include other support and ease of use.

--
'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
Re:I wish... by GeekyMike · 2006-01-02 10:40 · Score: 1

I never said they invented it, I was just commenting that implementing it on XP was useful. Of course I may be in the wrong place since I was looking for a nice thing M$ has done with a product. I hope my /. username doesn't get banned for the outrageous action of mentioning something M$ has done right.

Maybe I should only post on how in Soviet Russia, drivers update you or something.

--
Beware the fury of a patient man
- John Dryden
Re:I wish... by Analog+Penguin · 2006-01-02 12:13 · Score: 1

Uh...because the other products that could compete got driven out of the market?
Re:I wish... by Flyboy+Connor · 2006-01-02 20:49 · Score: 1

Well, it all started when they signed an onerous monopoly licensing agreement with IBM that said their OS would be distributed with all machines, and that everyone had to pay them wether or not they wanted it. Then they made boat loads of money.
Not quite correct. Microsoft signed a deal with IBM by which they provided IBM with an OS (MS-DOS, which was renamed PC-DOS for IBM), but Microsoft retained the full rights to the OS. This allowed Microsoft to provide the OS to clone manufacturers. IBM became a big success in the PC market, and Microsoft was coming along for the ride, with DOS becoming the default OS. At that point Microsoft made the brilliant move by giving PC manufacturers a huge cost reduction if they would pay them for the OS per PC they sold, and not per copy of the OS they delivered. They seemed like a good deal to all at the time, but it did provide Microsoft with its OS monopoly. IBM's attempt to reduce the impact of this monopoly by developing OS/2 in collaboration with Microsoft was sabotaged at several points by Microsoft, which allowed them to transfer the OS monopoly to its awful Windows shell. And that is where we are today.
Re:I wish... by brkello · 2006-01-03 07:46 · Score: 1

Yes, damn their monopoly over gaming consoles! Oh wait...

--
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Re:I wish... by 3)+profit!!! · 2006-01-03 11:34 · Score: 1

Microsoft is far from a monopoly in the console business. Nobody's being forced to buy an Xbox 360.
Re:I wish... by ozmanjusri · 2006-01-03 22:51 · Score: 1

Microsoft is far from a monopoly in the console business.

They don't make money from the console business either. They make money from their monopoly businesses and leverage that cash in the console market. It's classic robber-baron tactics.

--
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."

They should rename that thingy... by ceeam · 2006-01-02 01:27 · Score: 2, Funny

XBox360? How 'bout Happy-Fun-XBox?

Re:They should rename that thingy... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:34 · Score: 2, Funny

Happy FUN XBox!

-only $414.95-

Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to Happy Fun XBox.
Caution: Happy Fun XBox may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
Happy Fun XBox Contains a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Do not use Happy Fun XBox on concrete and/or carpets.

Discontinue use of Happy Fun XBox if any of the following occurs:
Itching
Vertigo
Dizziness
Tingling in extremities
Loss of balance or coordination
Slurred speech
Temporary blindness
Profuse sweating
Heart palpitations

If Happy Fun XBox begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.

Happy Fun XBox may stick to certain types of skin.

When not in use, Happy Fun XBox should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration...

Failure to do so relieves the makers of Happy Fun XBox, Microsoft Corp, of any and all liability.

Ingredients of Happy Fun XBox include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.

Happy Fun XBox has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.

Do not taunt Happy Fun XBox.

Happy Fun XBox comes with a lifetime guarantee.

Happy Fun XBox

ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!
Re:They should rename that thingy... by barefootgenius · 2006-01-02 01:59 · Score: 1

or, "XBox360. Right where you started."

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/. bug #926803 - Why I can post.
Re:They should rename that thingy... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:16 · Score: 0

XBOX reach around edition....
Re:They should rename that thingy... by brouski · 2006-01-02 04:24 · Score: 3, Funny

That sounds suspicously like you're taunting Happy-Fun-XBox.

--
Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!

Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by MadCow42 · 2006-01-02 01:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'd continue doing business with them anyways. They're making the user aware of a real problem, but not charging them for the first damaged disc(s). It's only fair that damages after they're made aware of the issue are chargeable.

Most companies would charge for the first discs too - after all, it's the rental company that's most likely to have to swallow the cost (unless Microsoft coughs up... how likely is that to a rental house?).

Kudos to them...

MadCow.

--
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.

Re:Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:34 · Score: 1, Insightful

I agree. The rental policy is fair, and I think that's generally what discussion has concluded.

The big issue here is the flaw of the player's relationship with its media. That's a real problem that Microsoft definitely should have learned years ago. That sort of thing should be a base issue now in two thousand freakin' six.

Sucks to be Mircrosoft.

Oh wait, they keep earning money even when the customer gets screwed. Nevermind.
Re:Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:47 · Score: 0

Totally agree, great policy. My self-awareness-check-post-password is, appropriately enough, "nicest".
Re:Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by hikerhat · 2006-01-02 04:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

Doesn't seem so fair to me. How do they know the xbox damaged the disc? What if is was damaged by the employee who was checking it for damage, and they want to cover their ass? That's what I would do if I worked there and scratched a disc. What if it was damaged in any other way?
Now if three or four discs came back from they same customer damaged, they might have a case. But one disc?
Re:Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by KarmaMB84 · 2006-01-02 04:06 · Score: 1

Indeed. They could probably take the hit themselves and get the replacement themselves for *one* disc from the fees they collect from the user alone, but when they 3 more than that suddenly they have $200+ of scratched product that will take a long long time to collect from that single user in fees...
Re:Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:02 · Score: 0

Although I think you are a bastard, I won't comment on how you'd charge the customer for something you scratched.

However, I'm more worried about employee interpretation. What is one employee gets the disc back and deems it okay. It gets re-rented to me and I receive it with some scratches. I return it, and a different employee decides that it is worthly of replacement. How fair is that?

We've all gotten discs that were scratched to hell either online or from B&M rentals. How do you draw a concrete, error-proof line for when a disc should be replaced?

Of course, if I was GameFly, I'd create the same policy. What else can you do to protect yourself? Basically, it sounds to me that XBox360 rentals are unsafe for both the retailer and the renter.
Re:Seems like a fair, user-friendly policy by ronanbear · 2006-01-02 10:14 · Score: 1

They're also giving you a letter which proves that your 360 is defective. You can use this to help get M$ to replace any scratched games you bought and get the console repaired. Most people don't only rent games. They buy a few too and end up destroying their own disks too.

--
the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe

Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:30 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sometimes I wonder if a competing company is behind some of these stories.

At a minimum, the headline of "360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem" is a little sensationalist, no?

Just because a game rental company comes up with an official policy to deal with an issue, doesn't mean that issue is a "serious problem" - usually it just means that it happened often enough that they wanted to put something down on paper to reduce support calls. (And, frankly, warning users that their consoles might be causing disk damage is a good idea. But that isn't something that's limited to the 360. PS2s have been known to scratch disks as well.)

What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do? Or maybe a story about the fast turnaround time of Xbox 360 tech support? (5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

I can honestly say that I have not had a single problem since I got my Xbox 360 on release day. (I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue.)

Re:Why all the bad press? by Fred+Or+Alive · 2006-01-02 01:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

Because positive stories ("Man very happy with Xbox 360 technical support") don't make good news.

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10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU "; 20 GOTO 10
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:48 · Score: 0

(5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

So, which was it? Did your friend get a brand new console, or did they fix his existing one?
Re:Why all the bad press? by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 02:11 · Score: 3, Funny

Yeah, stories like "Plane crashes, 300 dead" are sensationalist, why don't they write stories about the billions of people who didn't die that day?

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:Why all the bad press? by MilenCent · 2006-01-02 02:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do? Or maybe a story about the fast turnaround time of Xbox 360 tech support? (5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

I can honestly say that I have not had a single problem since I got my Xbox 360 on release day. (I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue.)

So, until it happens to you, the problem doesn't exist?

I've heard about the scratching problem on X-Box 360s from more places than this article. If a "majority" are okay, it doesn't mean it's not a problem. If any systems are scratching disks then it's a risk. The question is, is it an *acceptable* disk? If just 5% of X-box 360s scratched disks so they became unplayable, then that's bad enough that Microsoft deserves more than just a black eye for it.

Microsoft needs to acknowledge the problem, issue a statement on it, and offer to replace any affected X-box 360s *and games* with a minimum of fuss. The systems should be under warrenty at the moment so that shouldn't be a problem right now, but what about the games affected? And what if the problem only shows up after the system is out of the warrenty period?

Didn't some rumors like this start floating around, something about failing optical drives, when the PS2 was released?
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:38 · Score: 0

>>Yeah, stories like "Plane crashes, 300 dead" are sensationalist, why don't they write stories about the billions of people who didn't die that day?

Why not?

I sure wouldn't mind hearing more about all the good things that happen every day.

Oh but wait - that's right. Bad stories get higher ratings, don't they?
Re:Why all the bad press? by stinkjones · 2006-01-02 02:39 · Score: 1

I happen to have a 360 myself. I have also had 0 problems since launch day. I have actually accidentally knocked the console over from vertical to horizontal WHILE PLAYING Madden 2006. I was like "Oh Shit!" because I had heard of the scratching issue. I thought to myself, "That game is fucked, I'll have to return it to those gamestop bastards". I looked at the disc when I removed it, and viola! No scratches! I don't know if I got lucky, but the 360 has performed exactly to my liking. Or maybe I am just one of the few non-retarded people who bought this console, so I have no problem using it. Hmmmm...
Re:Why all the bad press? by Halfbaked+Plan · 2006-01-02 02:42 · Score: 1

Didn't some rumors like this start floating around, something about failing optical drives, when the PS2 was released?

Shush now. We're busy hating Microsoft. We'll hate Sony in a few other stories.

--
resigned
Re:Why all the bad press? by HD+Webdev · 2006-01-02 02:51 · Score: 1

What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do?

GAMES: 360 Disc Scratching Not Serious Problem For People Who Don't Experience The XBOX 360 Scratching Discs

--
This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
Re:Why all the bad press? by yapplejax · 2006-01-02 03:09 · Score: 1

Microsoft needs to acknowledge the problem, issue a statement on it, and offer to replace any affected X-box 360s *and games* with a minimum of fuss.

They're too busy running around trying to fix their WMF's.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Indras · 2006-01-02 03:12 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've heard about the scratching problem on X-Box 360s from more places than this article. If a "majority" are okay, it doesn't mean it's not a problem. If any systems are scratching disks then it's a risk. The question is, is it an *acceptable* disk? If just 5% of X-box 360s scratched disks so they became unplayable, then that's bad enough that Microsoft deserves more than just a black eye for it.

I can't help but make a comment on this. I repair machines in a plastics factory, we make parts for dashboards in various vehicles. For us, defective products are measured in PPM (and I'm sure it's the same across the industry). It's short for Parts Per Million.

We have internal PPM - scratched parts, short shots, bad paint, etc., that are caught by the operators and quality inspectors before they leave the building. More importantly is external PPM - defective parts that we didn't catch, that made it out of the building to the customer site and were rejected and sent back. Naturally, this makes our customers angry and costs us a bundle (since we pay for shipping both ways).

Just today I overheard a meeting between a line boss and his operators. He was ranting over how terrible our PPM scores were: Internal - 23,000 External - 151.

Yes, that's 151 bad parts per million that we produced and sent out of our building. That's less than 0.02% defect rate. If our external PPM ever got over 1% for a particular department (1000 parts per million), it would not be surprising to see some operators and quality inspectors fired. In my plants, a 4-digit PPM is a capitol crime.

Now, to hear that there may be 5% of XBox 360's that scratch discs makes me shudder. That's high enough for a full recall of all products while the issue was sorted out.

I'm guessing that you were just making up a figure, but you picked a rather large one.

--
The speed of time is one second per second.
Re:Why all the bad press? by CMiYC · 2006-01-02 03:50 · Score: 4, Informative

I'm guessing that you were just making up a figure, but you picked a rather large one.

Consumer electronics has a failure rate between 3-5% (once in customer hands.)

You are comparing two completely different industries. The complexity of a computer system (in this case a video game system) is far higher than plastic injected into a mold. My apologizes for simplifying a plastic dashboard to that extreme.

Once an electronics product ships out the door, 1 transistor out of the millions inside the various chips can cause the entire system to fail. One solder ball out of the thousands can come loose during shipping and cause the entire system to fail. So no, 5% is not too large. It is industry standard for consumer electronics.
Re:Why all the bad press? by neomunk · 2006-01-02 04:56 · Score: 1

You know, if buy a game, and the physical medium becomes damaged, I have absolutly NO qualms about going out to torrent or dcc land and picking up a new copy. I use the key that I purchased, don't install the cracks, and I'm ready to rock...
Re:Why all the bad press? by BondGamer · 2006-01-02 05:02 · Score: 1

The complexity of a computer system (in this case a video game system) is far higher than plastic injected into a mold.

How complex is it to make sure your machine doesn't ruin the media it runs? Testing should involve inserting a disk and reading it for a few minutes. Most QA today involves pressing the on button and seeing the power light go on.
Re:Why all the bad press? by neomunk · 2006-01-02 05:08 · Score: 1

I have a little insight into this... I was a chimp once for an ex IBM dvision that was it's 'own' company now. They made 1 non-IBM product, and that was one of the projects I worked on. This project required me to install a satellite receiver card and a transmitter card into Dell PCs and test them (before AND after, different tests). The Dells had a 0.2% fault rate out of the box... 1 out of 500 isn't too shabby.

Now, as for an IBM server project I worked on, we had to use IBM servers (5600 series IIRC), installing some parts(2nd proc, another power suppy, tape backup etc.), replacing the OS, setting up the thinclients, stuff like that. Those servers had a 20% failure rate. That's right, 1 out of 5 was bad out of the box. It pissed me off frankly.

Now, being that this used to be a division of IBM (with IBM employees still working onsite) perhaps this high rate is a representative of my grandparent-posts INTERNAL failure rate... Either way, that seems high to me, but supports my parent post's observation.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · 2006-01-02 05:17 · Score: 1

>maybe I am just one of the few non-retarded people who bought this console

don't worry, we can safely rule that one out
Re:Why all the bad press? by TobyWong · 2006-01-02 06:09 · Score: 1

Because running a disc for a few minutes is going to tell you very little. You think all these scratched discs occurred within the first 3 minutes of use? I seriously doubt it. So you could run your little overly simplistic 3 minute QA disc test and STILL get all these scratched disc returns that occurred 1 day, 1 week, or 1 month into the console lifespan and you would have accomplished nothing.

--
- Toby
Re:Why all the bad press? by ivan256 · 2006-01-02 06:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Consumer electronics has a failure rate between 3-5% (once in customer hands.)

I'm not sure what study you pulled that from, but those sound to me like the failure rates in the first year, not the number that are defective out of the box.
Re:Why all the bad press? by MilenCent · 2006-01-02 06:56 · Score: 1

Yep, to be clear about this, I made up the 5% figure. The article I replied to said just that the majority were't defective though, which in mind implies that 49.9~ could be defective and there still wouldn't be a problem.

Of course, he probably didn't mean it like that himself. I just wanted to clarify that you can have failure rates far, far away from 50% and still have major problems.
Re:Why all the bad press? by MilenCent · 2006-01-02 06:58 · Score: 1

I'm like that too. I bought the two Might and Magic Xeen games years ago, but now my floppies are scattered around my belongings and probably half of 'em are bad now anyway, so I don't have a problem with downloading the games from elsewhere.

One of these days I'm going to have to download an ISO of Tactics Ogre, since my original copy was destroyed in the unfortunate Sitting On It incident of 1998....
Re:Why all the bad press? by honkycat · 2006-01-02 07:10 · Score: 1

It's not uncommon to run longer burn-in tests on at least a fraction of the product comming off the line. We did a 24-hour burn-in for 100% of the devices we produced, at least during the first production runs. They were somewhat more expensive than a 360, but still, given that they are a professional production company, they're doing testing.

I'm sure they've been running a fairly large number of 360s for longer than customers have had them. Undoubtedly they've seen at least some of these problems and decided that they were acceptable. Perhaps they didn't realize the full magnitude and blew it. Maybe the rates are acceptable -- I don't know, I haven't seen trustworthy numbers.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Boogaroo · 2006-01-02 07:14 · Score: 1

These are not truly different. There are two things that are likely scratching the disks.

*The mold formed plastic tray.
*The lazer head assembly.

Both of these are simple non-transistor based errors. There's no way a bad transistor is causing this.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Bryan_W · 2006-01-02 07:15 · Score: 1

Yeah what about all the GOOD things Hitler did?
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:18 · Score: 0

I looked at the disc when I removed it, and viola!
You know, you can send that in to Microsoft to exchange it for a harpsichord.
Re:Why all the bad press? by HalAtWork · 2006-01-02 07:32 · Score: 1

Why all the bad press?
In Japan where you commonly see used versions of games for sale the day after said game was released, and that the difference between highest quality pristine condition games and one that has a tiny scratch on it is large enough to consider this problem serious as it devalues your investment. Since the XBox had the same problem, and this next console continues it and MS're still not taking it seriously, this would make the difference between someone buying the console or not.

--
Twinstiq, game news
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 08:08 · Score: 0

There is no way other electronic companies are like this. Electronics are so shitty nowadays that I have to return at least 25% of recent electronic purchases. It's so bad when I buy something new I pray that the freaking thing works, rather than just expecting it to like it should.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 08:45 · Score: 0

Person A: Yes it does because [insert common sense here]

Person B: No, it doesn't because [insert common sense here]

Duh?
Re:Why all the bad press? by glesga_kiss · 2006-01-02 09:07 · Score: 1

IIRC, the problem occurs only if you move the console while the disk is running. Folk change between vertical while on the shelf to horizontal use on the carpet. Any 16x drive or faster will have the same problems. You canny change the laws of physics; that disk is going to want to remain vertical and it will have quite a lot of gyroscopic energy in it at those spin rates. While chiping xboxen and PS devices (something I used to do now and then for friends), I always used a demo disk as the test media as movement of the drive when in use caused some nasty radial scratches on the disk. I ruined a couple over the years due to this.
If this is the case, then it's largely user error. The box has an HD in it, don't move it while its on!!
Part of the problem is that radial scratches are the worst damage a cd-rom based technology can take. The error correction data is in stored adjacent to the data, so a circular scratch completely destroys all of the data in that region. A scratch from the outside in will on damage a narrow stripe, whereby there is enough data in the track on either side to determine it's contents. This is why you should always wipe a disk from the inside to the outside; any scratches you cause (or greasey fingerprint you spread!) won't impact anything.
PS I used to work in electronics manufacture for a large, generally respected, tech company. One piece of advice: avoid the first production run of anything new. Microsofts problems here are common across the industry, nothing special.
Re:Why all the bad press? by way2trivial · 2006-01-02 09:52 · Score: 1

pick up the january 2006 pc world magzine... and read the stats on dead out of the box electronics.. 3-5 is in line with their results too.

(blew me away, I've bought a lot more than 100 pieces of electronics, and the only doa's were gateway's and refurbished stuff)

--
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 10:05 · Score: 0

I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue

Try Quake 4.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 10:30 · Score: 0

If they did unit testing of each component, then integration testing (like Toyota does), they could get away with a much smaller defect rate. However, the costs involved cause them to decide that a larger defect rate is acceptable. That is why the need to be criticized over this, it might make them decide that proper testing is worth the money.
Re:Why all the bad press? by atomic_toaster · 2006-01-02 11:36 · Score: 1

5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine

So, you're telling us that a friend of yours already had to have their XBox 360 repaired/replaced? This despite the fact that the XBox 360 has been on the market for maybe two months now, so it's not like your friend could have worn out their console through constant use over a long period of time. (Especially since the hardware isn't being pushed to its max through the available games.) You're also telling us that, despite the fact that your console doesn't have any defects, you know someone who has already had to repair/return theirs.

The reason people are constantly bashing Microsoft in general, and the XBox 360 in specific, is specifically because of this issue. There are a lot of people out there who have had problems with their practically-brand-new machines, and even if many XBox 360 owners have no problems, practically every one of them knows someone who's had to have their console repaired/replaced.

As a comparison, the iPod Video has been released for approximately the same amount of time as the xBox 360. Sure, it's a different kind of device, but it, too, is a later version of a pre-exisiting and market-tested product. And if the iPod Video had had the same repair/replacement/error rate as the XBox 360, you'd see just as many articles about irate customers and return policies. Actually, you'd probably also see a lot more rants from competitors like Microsoft Sony if the latest iPod had defects than you currently hear from Apple about the 360's defects.
Re:Why all the bad press? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 14:18 · Score: 0

Just today I overheard a meeting between a line boss and his operators. He was ranting over how terrible our PPM scores were: Internal - 23,000 External - 151

If a car has probably several thousand parts, each with a defect rate of 0.01%, then you are looking at an aggregate defect rate of nearly 10% for something going wrong. That's higher than consumer electronics.

Six sigma is often abused: those looking to say they're doing six sigma well often just count more "stuff" until they hit six sigma. Motorola started the six sigma revolution in the US, and their field failure rate for cell phones is higher than 1%
Re:Why all the bad press? by ivan256 · 2006-01-03 03:01 · Score: 1

Being too cheap to buy the magazine, are you sure they aren't talking about just OEM PCs? If not, I wonder if they have a big electromagnet in their lab or something...
Re:Why all the bad press? by thesandtiger · 2006-01-03 04:39 · Score: 1

Yes, that's 151 bad parts per million that we produced and sent out of our building. That's less than 0.02% defect rate. If our external PPM ever got over 1% for a particular department (1000 parts per million), it would not be surprising to see some operators and quality inspectors fired. In my plants, a 4-digit PPM is a capitol crime.

Nitpick: 1% defect rate would be 10,000 PPM, not 1,000.

And a not-so-nitpick: I would expect that parts for a dashboard are rather less compliated than an XBox 360, or most of the parts for the 360. What parts of the dashboard are moving parts? Do people operate their dashboards in both horizontal and vertical configurations (and if they go vertical, I imagine their problems are just beginning...)

The more complex a machine is, the more components that go into it, the more chance there is of failure. Additionally, there's also factors of fault-tolerance: When a product malfunction can lead to catastrophic injury or death, tolerances are MUCH stricter, and parts are failed much more frequently. When a product malfunction can lead to a scratched game disk and a little disappointment, tolerances are less strict, and things are allowed to go out when they are more "iffy."

I used to work in a custom pc shop, and we had, on anything with moving parts (printers, HDDs mainly) at least a 5% DOA rate due to stuff like dropped box syndrome or "idiot who can't read thinks 'Fragile' is a sub-tropical country."

I don't work in QA, or have much to do with it, but this stuff seems pretty intuitive/obvious. Relatively inexpensive consumer products with lots of complicated innards will have a defect rate substantially higher than simpler plastic component.

--
Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
Re:Why all the bad press? by MaWeiTao · 2006-01-03 07:09 · Score: 1

It could also be poor quality control on the discs themselves. Perhaps they aren't properly balanced, or they're slightly warped. At the speed these drives spin a small defect can translate into a more significant problem.

In fact, I had a similar experience on my PC a few weeks ago. I got a new game, loaded the first CD into the drive, and it started making quite a racket. It sounded like the disc was sliding against components in there. I've had this drive for well over a year and it's never had a problem. I eject the disc and inspect it. The surface wasn't scratched, but I had noticed even before I loaded the disc in that the inner opening had a bit excess plastic. I cleaned that up, put the disc back in the drive and it was fine.

I don't really know if that was the culprit. Nevertheless, I expect game developers try to cut corners wherever they can, and given that the quality of CDs feels like it's going downhill, I wouldn't be surprised that it's giving rise to defects.

And here we see yet another reason... by lxs · 2006-01-02 01:30 · Score: 4, Insightful

...to wait at least a year after launch before buying a new console. In addition to the cost savings, a chance to check out the competition, and developers learning to fully use the power of the new system.

Re:And here we see yet another reason... by pmancini · 2006-01-02 02:16 · Score: 1

That has been my thinking. I have a regular XBOX and I won't even consider the new one until it has HD-DVD support. There is no point in me owning an HD-DVD player AND a console. My First Generation DVD player was replaced by my XBOX. I prefer to minimize my components and this is an obvious one. Finally, early-adopter headaches like what most people are seeing now won't affect me if I just wait and enjoy what I currently have.
Re:And here we see yet another reason... by SoulMaster · 2006-01-02 18:06 · Score: 1

Didn't we learn this with MS already? I seem to recall a standing law of nature that reads "Do not install until SP1 comes out", or something there about.

Fair policy by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

All drives can do this when you turn them quickly during highspeed disc reading. It is the same thing that happens when you try to turn a spinning wheel from a cycle.

People should learn not to move their hardware through various positions when using it.
IMO, it's fair enough to request that the loaner replaces the damaged disc, if they are properly informed about it before they rent a game.

-JaL

Re:Fair policy by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 01:57 · Score: 0

IMO, it's fair enough to request that the loaner replaces the damaged disc, if they are properly informed about it before they rent a game.

As long as it's only the disc and not the license. The media is very cheap.

Years ago I damaged a VHS tape, and I had to pay almost 100 USD! They said they had to buy a new license, which was very expensive, but customers only paid a small part of it.
I suggested they suggested to their supplier that they paid separately for media and licenses, because the tapes a really very cheap and I didn't damage the license. I don't think she understood me. :-/
Re:Fair policy by eluusive · 2006-01-02 02:56 · Score: 1

Same thing happened to me at hollywood video. I returned a disc i rented which had already been scratched. They told me they wouldn't be getting any new copies in and a new disc was very expensive and that it was such an old release. Buncha crap if you ask me. If i was hollywood video I'd have a disc burner and only rent out the copies. Just gotta be very careful that you don't make more copies than you have licenses.
Re:Fair policy by HD+Webdev · 2006-01-02 03:11 · Score: 1

All drives can do this when you turn them quickly during highspeed disc reading. It is the same thing that happens when you try to turn a spinning wheel from a cycle.

Maybe they should use the drive technology that portable CD players and Laptops use.

--
This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
Re:Fair policy by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:32 · Score: 0

yes slow drives and drive caddys are the answer, you win a prize!
Re:Fair policy by FriedTurkey · 2006-01-02 05:10 · Score: 1

The problem is with the 360 is that it has a cool looking X that turns when you turn the console. It's almost like they sat in board room and said "what fancy crap can we stick on this thing to make it scratch disks". My PS2 would probably scratch a disk if I turned it sideways while playing a game but it is lacking a cool looking X to give me incentive to turn it. I need to get one of cool looking X-box faceplates and glue it on to my PS2.
Re:Fair policy by Animaether · 2006-01-02 05:38 · Score: 1

caddies? what modern-day laptop uses caddies ?

and who says they're slow? rather, who says they should be slow ?

here's the deal... there's a center bit (let's call it the axle) which picks up and, if at all done properly, holds the CD so that it can spin. The speed at which it can spin it is a limit of the motor, not anything else**

The amount of pick up, in the case of damages, is crucial*. Say the mechanism picks it up 1mm from the surface of the tray (assuming tray-loading). That's perfectly fine just for playing the CD/DVD back, even at high velocities. But if you change the angle of the device rapidly enough, you get gyro effects, and the CD/DVD will want to stay straight while the rest of the device tilts. So.. relative to the device, the CD/DVD will appear to tilt. Guess what happens if that tilt, at the edge, is just more than the 1mm of pick up?

So yes, this is a silly problem - they should have used drives with a higher pick up. That said, people need to quit screwing around with their devices' tilts angles unless it's when the thing is off and you're relocating it.

* another item, in case of extremely sudden tilt, is that the axle needs to be non-rigid, as otherwise the CD/DVD may break from the center (as the center would still be rigidly held by the axle).

** there's friction (with the air), of course, and a smaller pick up may actually lead to slightly higher friction, then there's instability of the CD/DVD which may cause vibrations which in turn limits the speed, etc. But overall, there's no technical reason a laptop/portable drive can't do 52x when a destop drive can.
Re:Fair policy by ivan256 · 2006-01-02 06:43 · Score: 1

What? The answer is what all quality optical drives do already... One of two things. Either the disc is lifted off the tray and pushed against a bearing on the top of the drive case sufficiently far from other parts that vibrations and shock don't cause impact (most PC sized drives, standalone CD/DVD players, slot loaders, etc...), or the disc is held suspended away from the components with axial pressure exerted by a series of spring loaded ball berrings (most slim drives, portables, and toploaders). What has probably happened here is one of two things: that the 360 uses cheap DVD drives with a plastic top bearing, and the inexpensive materials required extra thickness, thus keeping the disc too close to some other component rather than properly suspended, *or* that the packaging materials are insufficient, and the device gets squeezed during shipping. A third, but less likely possibility is that the discs are made out of a more flexable polycarbonate than other DVDs (maybe they left a layer off to cut costs?), and thus flex more when the unit is rotated.

Not cutting corners is the answer. Either way, even if you accidentally knock the thing over while playing your disc should not be damaged.
Re:Fair policy by elgatozorbas · 2006-01-02 06:45 · Score: 1

People should learn not to move their hardware through various positions when using it.
This has been known for many years and was even rule Nr.5 in the Kama Sutra.
Re:Fair policy by Chubby_C · 2006-01-02 07:16 · Score: 1

for the record its called gyroscopic precession

--
- My question is: Can Slashdot be Slashdotted? -

Yet another reason why.. by codeTurtle · 2006-01-02 01:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

...I won't be getting a 360 til the end of it's lifecycle. It's clearly been rushed out for release to get a perceived edge over Sony (and to a lesser extent, Ninendo). I think that this means that the PS3 and the Revolution will end up being much more rounded, robust consoles - Sony and Nintendo know they're not going to be first to market, so they can afford to spend a little more time getting the consoles right. Plus hopefully there'll actually be a decent number of games available at launch... ;)

Re:Yet another reason why.. by User+956 · 2006-01-02 03:20 · Score: 1

I won't be getting a 360 til the end of it's lifecycle. It's clearly been rushed out for release to get a perceived edge over Sony (and to a lesser extent, Ninendo).

Not to mention, if you buy one later, it will come with an HD-DVD drive (so you don't have to buy that extra, or as an external unit, or whatever-other-bullshit-bandaid-way they'd offer to the launch purchasers). Also, you'll be able to get one in black, like god intended.

--
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Re:Yet another reason why.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 04:22 · Score: 0

LOL. Are we talking about the same Sony here? They're probably rushing their asses off to minimize MS's launch lead.
Re:Yet another reason why.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:36 · Score: 0

Just because Sony or Nintendo are releasing thier products later does not mean that they will be any more robust. Sony, for one, is using a completely new chip; and we know almost nothing about Nintendo's next gen console.
Re:Yet another reason why.. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:48 · Score: 0

...must... resist... can't...

"the PS3... will end up being much more rounded..."

Like a George Foreman grill. *Snicker*
Re:Yet another reason why.. by ross.w · 2006-01-02 09:58 · Score: 1

The main reason for me (apart from the cost) is the need for an HDTV to take advantage of the improved graphics. FOr my regular PAL TV, the original X-Box does just fine, and there are thousands of games out there for it. I just hope they keep selling them for a while yet.

--
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
Re:Yet another reason why.. by steveo777 · 2006-01-03 06:33 · Score: 1

Umm... The PS2 was just as, if not more problematic as the Xbox or the 360. The PS1 wasn't that great either, they went through three different models of the original form, before going with the smaller PSOne. I'm not a fanboy either way (well, I've always trusted Nintendo, never had the money for the Virtual Boy, glad in retrospect).
I plan on buying the PS3 the day it comes out. I want to be a guinnea pig just like the rest of us. I didn't get the original PlayStation untill my brother gave me one on the PS2 release day. I don't even own a PS2. I want the PS3.
I NEED RPGs. Nintendo isn't delivering. I don't know how the Rev will do with providing them. I don't care, I'm buying that too. Soooo many PS2 games... So little time, but I don't want to get a PS2 now, not with it's bigger stronger brother on the way.
Hmm.. If my girlfriend is around long enough for the PS3 or Rev release... that will likely be the end of it.

--
This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
Re:Yet another reason why.. by MaWeiTao · 2006-01-03 07:21 · Score: 1

I agree that in the long run the first company to enter the market ends up losing out, especially in the console market. You'd think companies today would be going out of their way to let someone go first.

Rushing out to get the first release of any console is pointless. They almost always come with problems and the launch titles are almost never compelling. Unfortunately, someone always has to be an early adopter so that there's a chance to identify and resolve any significant problems.

That said, I don't think Sony is going to offer anything significant. They have a habit of delaying excessively and then putting out a product that doesn't justify all the waiting.

Both the Xbox360 and PS3 are more of the same. The Revolution isn't going to be much different either, expect for the controller, which may offer a unique experience, but I highly doubt it will provide for revolutionary gameplay and will probably just be problematic with many genres. The fact that it isn't quite as powerful as the other consoles will likely ensure it alienates developers even more than the Gamecube has.

I never cared much for consoles and these "next-generation" consoles don't change that. All the good games available for consoles are, in my opinion, wasted on the consoles and would have been much better served being developed for the PC.

vertical placement of unit? by pl1ght · 2006-01-02 01:46 · Score: 1, Insightful

My guess this is happening to people who (like idiots) stand their unit vertically. PS2 had this as a "feature" to, but all it did was lead to scratched discs. I have had my horizontal from the beginning and i have no scratches on my dvds with heavy play. Just a thought.

Re:vertical placement of unit? by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 01:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

Insightful?

It doesn't matter what angle the unit is at so long as you're not moving between horizonal and veritcal while the disk is spinning. The potential for damage is when the disc is spinning fast enough for gyroscopic physics to try to torqe the disk at a right angle from the direction the console is moving, pushing the disk into things it really shouldn't come into contact with.

Otherwise, gravity pulling from one direction instead of another in and of itself wouldn't cause damage to the disk. If anything, having the console horizonal would be worse as gravity would be pulling the data surface (rather than the edge) down onto the disk tray.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 02:15 · Score: 2, Informative

The unit is mounted vertically in Microsoft's demo kiosks, if that makes it damage discs that'd be false advertising.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:15 · Score: 0

Like idiots huh? All the PR shots from Microsoft show the console standing vertically, so I really don't think calling people idiots for doing something Microsoft explicitely told them to do is called for.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by hotspotbloc · 2006-01-02 03:03 · Score: 1

The potential for damage is when the disc is spinning fast enough for gyroscopic physics to try to torqe the disk at a right angle from the direction the console is moving, pushing the disk into things it really shouldn't come into contact with.
What about spin up and spin down? I have a 10 month PS2 (used mostly in the vertical position mounted on a Sony PS2 stand) and a very scratched copy of GTA:SA. The game was bought new and only played in the new PS2. Only three other new games have ever been played in the unit. A design flaw in the way the cd is seated could cause a rough takeoff and landing.
I think the grandparent might have a point. Yes, the Bernoulli Effect supports your comment but I still think spin up/down is a problem.

--
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
Re:vertical placement of unit? by pl1ght · 2006-01-02 03:20 · Score: 1

Not necessarily. The ps2 was advertised Vertically as well for all of you who will remember. Everyone thought it was cool to do it until you find out your discs get scratched. Same thing here. The discs just dont balance the same vertically as they do horizontally. Maybe my idiots comment was harsh, but I remembered from the ps2 experience, so i didnt chance it.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 03:35 · Score: 1

Some drives (e.g. portable CD players) can be operated vertically so the official endorsement of vertical orientation would suggest that the system's drive was designed and tested for that.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by pl1ght · 2006-01-02 04:23 · Score: 1

I agree it suggests. But look at portable cd players and how the cd is mounted intot he drive. They are mounted on there really good. Unlike the ps2/xbox360 systems. The gamecube on the other hand has the same type of mounting that a portable cd does, which is why they shouldnt ever have that problem. All im saying this problem requires a little common sense. But i also realize that the majority of people are lacking in that department.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by geminidomino · 2006-01-02 04:40 · Score: 1

In most portable CD players I've seen, though, you actually push the CD down onto the nub/motor/spool/whatever that thing is called, like on the Playstation/PSOne, GCN and Dreamcast.Once it's seated, you can turn the thing upside down and the disc stays put.

Tray-feeders like the PS2 and Xbox don't have that, so the orientation could be an issue.

I'm not saying that IS it, but that is a big difference between the portable CD players you mentioned and the consoles in question.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by GizmoToy · 2006-01-02 05:18 · Score: 1, Informative

Did this actually happen? I have a launch PS2 that I've had vertical since I bought it (fits nicely between all my components). No problems with scratching discs. I've never heard about it before. I'd say I'd flop it over so its horizontal, but at this point it probably makes no difference.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by po8 · 2006-01-02 07:28 · Score: 1

So MS should have put some motion sensors or pads or somesuch in the unit to protect the disk when the unit is moved. Telling people "don't bump this or you'll destroy a $50-$100 disk" for a consumer product aimed at children and young adults isn't a very realistic strategy.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 08:03 · Score: 1

Well, yes, but that doesn't mean MS is free to advertise the X360 as standing on its side if it's not capable of working properly that way. "It should be obvious that you shouldn't do that" doesn't seem to be a valid defense in a US courtroom.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 08:48 · Score: 1

"What about spin up and spin down?"

What of it? Unless you have a very poorly manufactured disk, the moment of intertia of the disk is on the spindle no matter its orientation.

"The game was bought new and only played in the new PS2."

Only one PS2 does not a proper statistical sample make. If a vertical orientation was generally bad for the disks, Sony (who has to pay for warranty repairs) wouldn't still be telling you that you can set your PS2 on its side. Instead, the only changes they've made is "If you put in a hard drive, get a stand because it becomes top-heavy."
Re:vertical placement of unit? by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 09:26 · Score: 1

When was the last time you saw such a warning on any DVD or CD player designed to sit on a shelf? Why are you insisting on a higher standard for Microsoft?

And whoever claimed that Microsoft was aiming at children with the Xbox line? I'm sick of people claiming that of Nintendo, but you're the first one I've heard try to say it of Microsoft.
Re:vertical placement of unit? by Inkieminstrel · 2006-01-02 09:57 · Score: 1

Yes, the Bernoulli Effect supports your comment but I still think spin up/down is a problem.
What does this have to do with decreased pressure with increased fluid flow?

it's getting harder and harder... by BillGod · 2006-01-02 01:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

In these days everyone is looking for any reason to bash the giant. Make jokes and poke fun. I have been a Microsoft user since DOS 3. I have been telling people for years that most of what they hear is just hype and to ignore it. I can't seem to find it in me anymore to stick up for them. None of my computers are running IE anymore due to a 6 hour virus removal fiasco. And there is no way in hell I will purchase an xbox 360 for my house any time soon. My son keeps begging me for one. How do you explain to an 11 year old that it sucks now.. but may get better by next year?

--
MISSING - Sig file. 2 years old black and white and very funny. If found please email me.

Re:it's getting harder and harder... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:06 · Score: 0

Um, he's eleven, so I really don't think you need to reason with the little brat. Can't parents today just say no and leave it at that?
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by HellYeahAutomaton · 2006-01-02 02:13 · Score: 1

"Son, there just aren't enough games out on the XBox 360 yet to make it worthwhile."
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by MilenCent · 2006-01-02 02:29 · Score: 0

In these days everyone is looking for any reason to bash the giant.

There certainly are good reasons to bash Microsoft.
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by js3 · 2006-01-02 02:39 · Score: 1

I really don't get why people think they need to stick up for some software or product. I use IE, and firefox and opera, I'm not a fanboi of either and I feel the need to defend some company's software if someone does not like it. If you don't like the xbox don't buy it, I bet you probably don't even have one anyways. Don't worry I don't have one either, but the reason I don't is because it costs 500$.. and I don't have a TV..

--
did you forget to take your meds?
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by rbochan · 2006-01-02 03:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

...How do you explain to an 11 year old that it sucks now.. but may get better by next year?

You go out and get a baseball and a couple of mitts, and take him to the park and have a catch.

--
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:26 · Score: 0

"Son, it sucks now. But it may get better by next year."
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by damiam · 2006-01-02 08:04 · Score: 1

Buy your son a DS, tell him it has much better games than the 360 does (or likely ever will), and put the $250 you saved into his college fund.

--
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by NeMon'ess · 2006-01-02 08:52 · Score: 1

If he's 11 and already has an xbox, PS2, gamecube, and DS, you tell him he's a spoiled little brat who should wait til this fall by which time MS will have worked out the defects in their system. By December 06 I expect 360s to have their chips manufactured with 90nm processes instead of 130. That'll take care of the overheating issues and noisy fans.
Re:it's getting harder and harder... by Nom+du+Keyboard · 2006-01-02 10:12 · Score: 1

How do you explain to an 11 year old that it sucks now.. but may get better by next year?
You start by not catering to unrealistic expectations. Otherwise by the age of 16 he'll expect a new car -- and it better be a faster one than his friends are getting.
He can tide himself over by either earning and saving the money (even a 11-year-old can do chores to earn his allowance) the money to buy it himself and get a real sense of the real world. Or go play at his friend's houses whose parents don't stand up to the pressure as well as you have. Let him buy a $60 game they don't have as his contribution to play on their $399 hardware, and everyone comes out ahead.
It's the parents that are the problem here -- not the kids who just take advantage of the situation they're offered.

--
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."

Call be doubtful, but... by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 01:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

You're telling me that there are not only enough Xbox 360s out there, but there are enough of those 360 owners that are also GameFly subscribers and that enough of those people who have both a 360 and a GameFly subscription also have a disk-eating machine that they instituted this new policy specifically for 360 games?

That's what, six people?

If anything, this policy is a continuation of a standing policy for all consoles, and they probably deal with far more disk-eating PS2s than disk-eating 360s, simply because of the installed base.

And before I'm accused of being a Microsoft apologist, I am a foaming-at-the-mouth Nintendo fanboy who would only get an Xbox 360 for Final Fantasy XI.

Re:Call be doubtful, but... by Generic+Guy · 2006-01-02 04:25 · Score: 2, Informative

If anything, this policy is a continuation of a standing policy for all consoles, and they probably deal with far more disk-eating PS2s than disk-eating 360s, simply because of the installed base.

Yeah, but the fact that they'll clear your 360 request queue and the fact that the machine has only been out 2 months makes this a big deal. Already there are folks reporting various levels of both abuse and non-abuse noticing the circular gouges on their game discs. Microsoft is of course tight-lipped about the actual level of problem, but has directed retailers to replace scratched discs.

There's enough prattle and din about this issue that something is certainly wrong with the design of this machine.

--
{ - Generic Guy - }
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by ruiner13 · 2006-01-02 04:52 · Score: 0, Offtopic

If Final Fantasy XI is as good as X was, i'd save your money if I were you. I personally think the franchise has been going downhill in terms of fun since FFVII. That game was great. Since then, you haven't had much control over the progression of the game, it has been all about going from A to B to C, with no exploration in between. Very linear, which IMHO is not what a good RPG should be. At that point it just becomes a scripted sequence of battles.

--
today is spelling optional day.
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by springbox · 2006-01-02 05:24 · Score: 1

I've played FFXI on the computer for a bit now and let me tell you.. It's like someone is making a ton of money off a commercial version of "the waiting game." Seriously. If you like sitting while listening to music, then that game is perfect.
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by OmgTEHMATRICKS · 2006-01-02 07:26 · Score: 1

"And before I'm accused of being a Microsoft apologist, I am a foaming-at-the-mouth Nintendo fanboy"

Which, I'm sure, is why you didn't mention the gamecube in a negative light. I'm sure it eats just as many discs as any other console.
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 08:50 · Score: 1

"Yeah, but the fact that they'll clear your 360 request queue and the fact that the machine has only been out 2 months makes this a big deal."

Is there any indication they don't have a similar policy in place for PS2 games that come back scratched? Is there any indication that the Xbox 360 is the first console they've ever had such a policy for?
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 08:53 · Score: 1

"If Final Fantasy XI is as good as X was,"

I already have it for the PS2 and I enjoy it. My only interest in getting an X360 to play it in would be to see what it looks like on an HDTV (I've been meaning to get one once prices become reasonable if only to play progressive-scan GCN games on), but the way they're trying to combine both PlayOnline and Xbox Live the prospects of me getting the system looks dim.
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by Guppy06 · 2006-01-02 08:55 · Score: 1

Whether it does is moot. The PS2 has the larger installed base and numerically (though probably not percentage-wise) would cause the greatest number of scratched disks.
Re:Call be doubtful, but... by NeMon'ess · 2006-01-02 09:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

You're wrong. The GC uses discs approximately 3" wide instead of 5". That means there is less gyroscopic effect if the console is moved, and less chance of the disc edge grinding on the laser head. Furthermore, the console is cube shaped, but just about nobody would try to put it on it's side. So it will always be kept in a vertical orientation. Anyone moving the console while it is powered would presumably slide it over, as opposed to tilting it 90 degrees which scratches discs in the PS2 and 360.

Look in the perspective by KZigurs · 2006-01-02 01:59 · Score: 1

Hmm, let's lok at this the following way:

Rental agencies always have some percentage of damaged returns - that's part of the business that is taken into account.
Posting a note that there may be a problem with product X from a company Y that prevents user to rent specific products for that product from the company has two following effects:
* Company Y, especially if the product X may suffer from the bad press of aknowledgement that there is a problem with a product may and probably will take notice. Take into perspective the particular company Y and try to guess what their reaction could be? As far as I know the XBox games offered for rent are licensed from renting directly from company Y (correct me if I am wrong)
* Client of the rental company receives essentially a slap from the company - of course this is not good for the relations with the particular customer as well. Customers bring money, and in the rental business money is made from long-term relations with the customers.

---

Now, come and think about it. What could have pushed this particular rental company to actually raise this issue, offend its supplier and aleniate a customer, if some specific percentage of damaged goods are already calculated in the costs of business?

Ya still think there isn't a problem?

we're screwed with blue-ray. by User+956 · 2006-01-02 02:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

I completely agree it's not mine to copy, but it will become mine pretty damned quickly if I scratch it. And I bet I would be charged the full game price as a replacement. Maybe the rental company should have backups. Kind of makes me nervous about renting games now.

This kind of blows a big hole in the *AA's argument that all this copy protection BS is really about preventing piracy. It seems to me that more and more, it's about getting the customer to buy multiple copies of the same content.

This point is even more obvious when you look at the way the Blue-ray copy protection works. If you get even the tiniest scratch on the ROM MARK on the disc, the disc is UNUSABLE. Doesn't matter if the rest of the surface of the disc is pristine, your $30 movie is now worthless. (yes, $30, you know they're going to charge 2x or 3x what a normal DVD costs).

That spells it out pretty clearly. The future is downloaded movies. And music. and games. And no, I'm not talking about DRM'ed ones that you pay for.

--
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.

Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Ucklak · 2006-01-02 02:23 · Score: 1

You know, I wonder(and we will see) if HD-DVD might win by default if the so called rom-mark has issues. If a mastered Disney movie gets screwed up then distributed then continues to render all the Blu-Ray players useless, what kind of lawsuits wil we see happen.
Mastering glitches happen all the time and the only one that comes to mind is the Back To The Future glitch that the studio replaced.

It seems like instead of going after the criminals that sell copied movies out of their trunk, they're making the consumer a type of police and forcing them to jump through hoops (by having players that can self destruct and buying BD+ discs). BluRay will be able to be copied especially once DVD-Jon gets a hold of one.

--
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Dr.+Evil · 2006-01-02 03:24 · Score: 1

Back to the future? You mean the widescreen where they cut the top and bottom off the film? That wasn't a mastering glitch, that was just... ... unbelievably dumb.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Ucklak · 2006-01-02 03:32 · Score: 1

It's still a glitch that happens in the mastering process. Titanic has a 1 frame compression issue too.
Point is that there will be some dumb thing that will happen on a release (Probably "From Justin to Kelly" or "Glitter") that will render joe sixpack's BD-DVD useless and we will be screwed until the next format comes out or a video on demand where we can get even the most obscure video (Like "Incredible Melting Man") where the distribution actually works.

--
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by coolGuyZak · 2006-01-02 03:56 · Score: 1

If you get even the tiniest scratch on the ROM MARK on the disc, the disc is UNUSABLE.

Could you provide a link for this information? I did a few Google searches and this is the best I could come up with... but it doesn't say anything about there being problems if the disk becomes scratched.
FWIW, most optical drives at the moment have excellent error correction capabilities. You need a pretty deep scratch across the ROM Mark for it to make the disk completely unusable. I would be surprised if Sony didn't account for this when they designed the protection scheme.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:59 · Score: 0

This point is even more obvious when you look at the way the Blue-ray copy protection works. If you get even the tiniest scratch on the ROM MARK on the disc, the disc is UNUSABLE. Doesn't matter if the rest of the surface of the disc is pristine, your $30 movie is now worthless. (yes, $30, you know they're going to charge 2x or 3x what a normal DVD costs).

Solution simple don't buy blue-ray discs :). Seriously I can't see why HD-DVD or Blue-ray will succeed, because unless I've missed something everyone is happy with DVDs, heck I'm happy with two CD dvd rips :).
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by springbox · 2006-01-02 04:18 · Score: 1

Maybe other people will be screwed, but guess who is going to continue to NOT buy this type of media (movies, music, etc)?
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by frdmfghtr · 2006-01-02 04:49 · Score: 2, Funny

I would be surprised if Sony didn't account for this when they designed the protection scheme.

Would this be the same Sony with that superwhamodyne well-thought-out rootkit?

--
Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by toddestan · 2006-01-02 06:51 · Score: 2, Insightful

You know, I wonder(and we will see) if HD-DVD might win by default if the so called rom-mark has issues.

I wonder if both Blu-ray and HD-DVD are destined to fail. For many people, DVD quality is good enough, and the restrictive DRM on both formats is going to be a huge turnoff for even the Joe Sixpacks of the world. If the studios keep producing standard DVDs and price them cheaper than the HD/Blu-ray disks, I would say their fate is sealed for sure.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Ucklak · 2006-01-02 07:51 · Score: 1

The other thing about Blu-Ray is that if the price point per release isn't below $20, their target audience won't buy.
Judging by the current trend of DVD's, I don't see how Blu-Ray will have a market value of less than $30 per release.

Geeks like us will re-buy LOTR and Star Wars to see it in Hi Def but there's no way I'm shelling out more cash for old tv shows on Blu-Ray or other lesser quality movies.

I saw DVD's catching on 10 years ago but I have a hard time seeing this one.

--
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by dnoyeb · 2006-01-02 09:07 · Score: 1

But the DVD did for video what the CD did for audio, to a lesser degree though due to the forced licence watching and sometimes forced previews.

The best part is instant access to parts of the movie. FF and REW are infinitely better than a tape. HD-DVD, bluray are not adding anything new that the consumer wants. There not even thinking about the consumer one bit. Its almost funny. They will both fail miserably guaranteed.

Or better put, they won't beat the spread. Investors won't make anything on them...
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by ergo98 · 2006-01-02 09:12 · Score: 0, Flamebait

This kind of blows a big hole in the *AA's argument that all this copy protection BS is really about preventing piracy. It seems to me that more and more, it's about getting the customer to buy multiple copies of the same content.

Most software makers, and movie makers for that matter, will replace your media if you damage it. Sometimes a small fee applies, but it's generally a token amount. None of them rely or hope for customers to get pissed off because of damaged media.

And there's the interesting thing - Most of us never, ever damage our media. I can count on one hand the number of movies, software, or music discs that has gotten scratched, largely because I'm not a dumbass about them. Hell, even Blockbuster discs - rentals that people treat terribly - have been remarkably free of user-caused defects.

Of course, I don't manufacture fear mongering stories about self-scratching discs to justify my piracy. Blu-ray, with the super scratchable section (which virtually any media has), is going to have an ultra-hard coating that is largely impervious to scratching, and if you are sloppy with it they'll happily replace the media.

Whether or not the Xbox360 damages discs is an interesting question. Rental places inevitably are going to get discs back from inconsiderate douche-bags, and invariably those people are going to blame some external actor for their own carelessness. Maybe the 360 does scratch discs, but it could just as easily be a coded statement "SURE your xbox360 scratched it...anyways we're not going to rent games to you anymore..."

BTW: Most DVD movies are currently less expensive than VHS movies ever were.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by krang321 · 2006-01-02 12:00 · Score: 1

yes, $30, you know they're going to charge 2x or 3x what a normal DVD costs
$30 is 2x what you pay at the moment... in the UK (different region code, so we cant buy US disk's) it costs £30 ($51.57) for a DVD!
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by E8086 · 2006-01-02 12:00 · Score: 1

To: Game FLy
RE: Damaged XBOX 360 game disk

I have received your claim alleging my Xbox 360 has damaged a game I have recently rented and returned. Please return the disk in question or provide high resolution pictures or scans of the disk in question so I can verify your claim. Or immediately restore all the Xbox 360 games to my GameQ. I own and have rented several Xbox 360 games and none have been damaged in any way and I am prepared to challenge your claim and state that my Xbox 360 has never damaged any disks played on it.

Signed,
Guy who doesn't even have an XBOX 360
123 Fake Street
Springfield, KY 609906

PS: did I forget to mention my good friend and neighbor is a high priced lawyer?

"Hell, even Blockbuster discs - rentals that people treat terribly - have been remarkably free of user-caused defects."

I don't know about Game Fly, but BlockbusterOnline gives you the option to report disks scratched damaged or unplayable. Which someone could use to cover up any damage their 360 caused to the disk. If GameFly doesn't test the disks when returned then it's possible the damaged disk reporter, not the last person who used it is the "guilty party."
Or maybe GameFly didn't realize the risks of sending expensive new game disks through the mail in nothing more than glossy paper sleeves and envelopes, at least that's what Blockbuster and NetFlix do. It's possible they're pulling an RIAA, blame the paying customer. If a disk is broken during shipping, I've gotten my share with Blockbuster, instead of finding a way to write off the cost they may be trying to pass off the cost to their customers like cell phone providers and all the additional "taxes."

--
F7 doesn't work, ignore spelling and grammar
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Guspaz · 2006-01-02 13:37 · Score: 1

Or you could, you know, repair the disc before returning it? Resurfacing a CD/DVD isn't exactly expensive. There are many cheap consumer resurfacers out there, and for seriously scratched discs, professional resurfacing (Which restores an optical-grade surface) costs about $5 per disc.

I mean, come on. This problem isn't exactly serious. The xbox 360 (ALL of them, this isn't caused by defective consoles like Game Fly is saying) only scratches discs if you tilt it. The simple solution is to not tilt your 360 while in use, and use it in the horizontal position. If you kick the unit really hard and cause it to somehow tilt while flat on a surface and it scratches a disc, pay $5 for a resurfacing and promise to be more careful next time.

Gamy Fly's policy is stupid, yes. But that is no excuse for throwing away common sense.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by silverkniveshotmail. · 2006-01-02 14:01 · Score: 1

That's fucked.
Couldn't you just go online and buy a US DVD player? Or a Reigion free one? Or download movies online?
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by coolGuyZak · 2006-01-02 14:21 · Score: 1

Yes.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by mrchaotica · 2006-01-02 18:57 · Score: 1

The sole important reason I saw to prefer DVDs (and CDs) to tapes was the idea of having a perfect digital copy that would never degrade, meaning I'd never have to re-buy the same stupid thing over again. This copy-protection crap defeats the entire purpose of the new format for me, and makes the value of it less than zero!

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by mrchaotica · 2006-01-02 19:00 · Score: 1

I would be surprised if Sony didn't account for this when they designed the protection scheme.
Sony probably designed it this way on purpose, since the whole damn thing is just a scheme to get people to buy new copies of movies they already own!

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by krang321 · 2006-01-02 21:47 · Score: 1

Couldn't you just go online and buy a US DVD player? Or a Reigion free one? Or download movies online?

Could get a US DVD player, but then there is the 40% import tax on anything (I think 40% is correct)... We do have a region free DVD player (one of five), but they are very difficult to find.

So I have now gone with the third option... well, not quite, they "appear" on my computer without my knowledge - I presume they come from the internet :-)
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by odourpreventer · 2006-01-02 21:48 · Score: 1
1. Buy a DVD burner for your computer.
2. Download DVD Decrypter from Doom9.net
3. Decrypt the DVD and save it to hard disk.
4. Watch the movie on your computer or burn it to DVD.
5. Profit?
--
Adventure, Romance, MAD SCIENCE!
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by Ucklak · 2006-01-03 01:20 · Score: 1

There's still copy protection on today's commercial DVDs.
With HDTV becoming the norm in a few/several years, DVDs won't be good enough as they aren't hi def to match the displays.

With CDs, all they can do is up the sampling rate andmost people won't be able to hear the difference (including me).
With DVDs, I can visually tell the difference between 480i , 852, and 1080.

The highest resolution for film to digital conversion today is 4000dpi so there isn't a need to re-convert movies that have been done, just re-master them.

--
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by silverkniveshotmail. · 2006-01-03 04:41 · Score: 1

Oh, and there's another option that i don't use and would never ever do: a DVD rental is between $1.99 and $3.75 where I live (yeah, i'm sure that's more expensive there too) and a DVD-R is like $0.07 (once again, more expensive?) So one could, if they had the proper equipment copy a DVD in like 15 minutes
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by krang321 · 2006-01-03 07:39 · Score: 1

That is a very good point... but for now the appearance of movies etc on my computer, seems to be working quite well - I believe it coming from some unknown source (best guess is the internet). Personally I hate DVD's anyway, not only do they scratch easily, but they force you to watch 1 minute or so of into and a warning telling me not to pirate the content... with the stuff on my computer I just double click and its there, none of that sh*t.
Re:we're screwed with blue-ray. by bani · 2006-01-03 08:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't see how they are destined to fail, when they will have the force of law behind them. The MPAA stormtroopers, authorized by congress, will police every home and make sure you are watching your daily quota of MPAA programs on MPAA authorized players. If necessary you'll be made to watch your quota clockwork-orange style, citizen. So get used to it.

So really, I can't see how they could possibly fail.

Not a lot of options by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:04 · Score: 0

So, your xbox 360 scratched someone's disk. My guess is that it also scratched some of your own disks. You phone the Microsoft help line and complain that your console is scratching disks. They tell you to send the unit back. Ah, but when do you get the replacement? I just searched Walmart's web site for xbox 360. They don't have it listed. You can get everything but the console. They even have faceplates available but no consoles.

If you send your defective xbox back, you may not get a replacement for a long time. Are you even going to bother reporting the problem? Maybe that's why Microsoft can say they haven't had a lot of reports.

Re:Not a lot of options by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:56 · Score: 0

Actually, the process goes like this:

User contacts 1800-4MY-XBOX. Service center overnights shipping materials to user. User packages 360 for repair and unit gets shipped PREPAID overnight to service center. Current turnaround times are 2-4 days at repair center (repaired or replaced with new). Item is overnight shipped back to user.

Although my 360 has been running since 11-15-05 with no problems, one of my friends had a problem and it was resolved immediately.
Re:Not a lot of options by Solarbeat · 2006-01-02 06:41 · Score: 1

I dunno about everyone else, but when I sent mine back for a freezing problem, it went something like this: Day 1: Called MS, they said they'd overnight a box. Day 2: Received box, returned it with the prepaid overnight label. Day 3-4: MS diagnosed the problem, ended up replacing it, overnighted it back to me. Day 5: *crossing fingers* been working perfectly ever since. Granted, there was a weekend mixed in there to delay shipping by a day or two, but no complaints here. Just don't be an idiot who moves the console while it's on. It's not a friggin PSP ;-)
Re:Not a lot of options by theLOUDroom · 2006-01-02 07:15 · Score: 1

Just don't be an idiot who moves the console while it's on. It's not a friggin PSP ;-)

Moving to console should NOT damage the disc.

Yes there are gyroscopic forces and such to deal with but that's no excuse. The drive should be designed such that the EDGE of the disc is what bumps, not the all-important data surface. Especially at $60 a game.

It's amazing what some of you guys think is normal. This is a GAME SYSTEM people. It should be able to take movement while powered on and even a small amount of abuse.

You should not have to treat an Xbox like a delicate piece of precious art.

--
Life is too short to proofread.
Re:Not a lot of options by jkmullins · 2006-01-02 08:32 · Score: 1

Who made that rule? You don't need to move the console to play it, and if you are moving it, you are not playing it. How often do you hear about someone designing for a situation that is totally outside of normal operational parameters? You should be able to expect your users to read the warnings in the manual and follow them. That's why they are there.
Re:Not a lot of options by Prog_Burner · 2006-01-02 09:24 · Score: 0

You would think people would tend to treat an xbox like a VCR, DVD player, or reciever. It's basically a component, I can't remember the last time I was watching a movie and decided to turn the DVD player over to see if it would look better in the rack. I know that would probably damage the dvd. If this is an issue with the drive being badly designed and scratching the disc while in "normal" use (not shaking or moving the console while playing) then it should be the company's responsibility, otherwise it's just people expecting the designers to protect them from themselves.
Re:Not a lot of options by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 11:27 · Score: 0

"How often do you hear about someone designing for a situation that is totally outside of normal operational parameters?"

Airbags.

Think before you post...
Re:Not a lot of options by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 11:28 · Score: 0

Nintendo made that rule. All nintendo systems are designed to repeatedly survive a vertical drop of up to 3 feet. I dropped my gamecube off the 2nd story floor of my house, and it still works fine.
Re:Not a lot of options by dangitman · 2006-01-02 12:14 · Score: 1

Who made that rule?
The consumer does. Why should the consumer have to follow a list of "rules" instead of just buying a product that doesn't break easily? You won't stay in business for long if you design poor-quality products.
You don't need to move the console to play it, and if you are moving it, you are not playing it.
No, but it can be accidentally knocked over or moved. And yes, many people move them deliberately while the disc is spinning. Especially if a bunch of people are playing in a living room, and more space needs to be made.
How often do you hear about someone designing for a situation that is totally outside of normal operational parameters?
Quite often, but that's besides the point, because this situation is definitely within very normal use for a console. It's not an extreme thing.
You should be able to expect your users to read the warnings in the manual and follow them. That's why they are there.
That's a great selling point! Buy our product and you have to read a friggin manual. Consumers want products to work easily, and not follow a list of strange rules. Why is it the consumer's responsibility to do extra work, when the product could have been easily designed to avoid these rules and inconveniences?

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:Not a lot of options by theLOUDroom · 2006-01-02 12:29 · Score: 1
You would think people would tend to treat an xbox like a VCR, DVD player, or reciever.

No I would expect them to treat it like a video game system.
It has WIRED CONTROLLERS. It is likely to be used by children.

it's just people expecting the designers to protect them from themselves.

That's really just a half-assed opinion. I would say it's more like expecting a piece of equipment to be able to survive in the real world. It's not as if people are doing anything weird here.
The issue seems to be that the Xbox's drive is ESPECIALLY sensitve to motion, above and beyond that of other drives. So I have to ask, how bad do you think it's gotta be before MS did something wrong?

There's gotta be a line here. Hell, would you be okay with losing a $60 game every time a pet bumps into the TV stand? How about just a truck driving by outside? What about just the coriolis effect itself fragging your discs?

All the arguments I'm hearing in response basically excuse ANY amount of shittiness on the side of the manufacturer because:
1. Objects are not supposed to move.
2. They are warned about it in the manual.
The response to 1 is that it's a silly assumption.
The response to 2 is that admitting you made a lousy product in the manual does not mean it isn't a lousy product.
--
Life is too short to proofread.
Re:Not a lot of options by theLOUDroom · 2006-01-02 12:31 · Score: 1

Who made that rule?

It's called common sense.

You don't need to move the console to play it, and if you are moving it, you are not playing it. . How often do you hear about someone designing for a situation that is totally outside of normal operational parameters?

Unless someone trips over the cord. That NEVER happens does it?
And game systems are never used by anyone but adults right?

You should be able to expect your users to read the warnings in the manual and follow them. That's why they are there.

This is a silly argument. Obviously there are things that can be wrong with a product that are inexcusable, even if there is a warning in the manual. I could understand the argument that it's never meant to be moved, but the argument that they warned about it in the manual therefore it wasn't a stupid design decision just doesn't fly.

--
Life is too short to proofread.

Unlikely to happen.. by Dr_Barnowl · 2006-01-02 02:08 · Score: 1

They hate rental outfits.
Sony, of course, have gone so far as to engineer around them ever happening.

not necessarily by User+956 · 2006-01-02 02:14 · Score: 1

I seriously doubt that the scratching gets bad enough to penetrate to the data layer, so they shouldn't need to re-buy.

They didn't say whether the discs were getting scratched on the bottom, or the top. The bottom has a pretty thick clear layer, but the data layer is not protected as heavily on the top. Take a pair of scissors to the top of a DVD-R or CD-R and you'll see what I mean. it's easy to scrape the data layer right off.

--
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.

Re:not necessarily by aed · 2006-01-02 02:21 · Score: 1

That's true only for CD(r)'s...
In case of DVD's however, the datalayer is in the middle of the disc, between two clear layers of equal thickness. So damaging the datalayer of a DVD is equally easy (or difficult) from both sides of the disc.
This is true for both dual- as singlelayer discs.
Re:not necessarily by User+956 · 2006-01-02 02:24 · Score: 1

So damaging the datalayer of a DVD is equally easy (or difficult) from both sides of the disc.

So this means one of two things. Either the XBOX 360 discs are terribly flimsy, or the "scratching problem" means some of the consoles are terribly defective. terrific.

--
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Re:not necessarily by Halfbaked+Plan · 2006-01-02 02:35 · Score: 1

No, it means, as the grandparent wrote:

It they're probably just sending them off to be resurfaced. DVD resurfacing is a well-known trade, and professional no-risk resurfacing can cost 5 - 10 dollars.

Not complicated. It costs them money to fix the scratches, they charge for it.

--
resigned
Re:not necessarily by delus10n0 · 2006-01-02 14:46 · Score: 1

Or it means that:

a) People are changing the orientation of their XBox360 while the disc is spinning. Stupid idea anyhow.

b) People are scratching the disks on accident/purpose/etc.

Also, you have to factor in the normal wear and tear of sending out/receiving all those discs back and forth constantly. Even Netflix is understanding in this regard. I have received two discs from them that were unplayable, and I went online and reported them as scratched. They sent out a replacement, and all was well!

--
Not All Who Wander Are Lost

I wish I could scratch disks by toupsie · 2006-01-02 02:14 · Score: 1

If I only had the chance to scratch disks with an XBOX 360! I can't find one for sale anywhere. All I can find are the games and accessories. I would pretty pissed if I owned a company that made the games and accessories because no one can use them them due to the lack of XBOX 360s for sale. Which sounds like if Gamefly is issuing a bulletin on scratched disks, its a big problem for them given the small population of users they have with 360s.

I don't know if Microsoft is trying to hype the 360 or they are having a huge manufacturing issue given the limited supply. From I read, they are only distributing a couple thousand per week. On a mass market item, that is a poor supply. They should be selling millions of them.

Maybe I will just wait for a PS3 as my old XBOX is still working fine.

--
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

Re:I wish I could scratch disks by Unknown_monkey · 2006-01-02 02:33 · Score: 1

You see, the allotment of the second shipment of X360s is based on selling games and accessories, since that's where the money is made. But since so few X360s were sent to stores, game and accessory sales are low.

So when Microsoft reviewed the sales of X360s with games and accessories, they shipped the majority of the 2nd production run to an online store that only sells the units with a full complement of games and accessories.

This resulted in all the other vendors not having units to sell.

So 3rd shipment, even fewer B&M stores have sold X360s with accessories and games, ebay is owning the market, and all the 3rd shipment goes to a guy in Des Moines who has a left ver fortune from the Dot bomb day and begins his Wehavex360too.com website with a team of venture capitalists that are looking for anything Microsoft and internet related.

4th shipment goes international.

5th shipment goes to South Korea to be used in defending against N. Korea on Xbox Live.

Shipments 6-9 recalled due to bugs found in 1-5.

Shipment 10, scheduled for May 2006 will put a minimum of 300 units in every store that carries X360 in US, Wal-Mart to announce Low Price X360 Everyday program as X360 price is lowered to 199/299 due to low sales and competition from Playstation 3.

Sony announces shortage of Playstation 3 and begins to follow the same marketing program as X360 due to the amazing buzz created.

My apologies to Sony for outing their marketing plan. And explanation for the first three shipments is similar to how it was explained to me from a person in the computing retail industry.

--
Why are women so complicated? Find out how little I know here.

easy fix... by gfanboy · 2006-01-02 02:16 · Score: 5, Funny

MS should just remove their slash code

My sources tell me... by gamorck · 2006-01-02 02:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

My sources tell me that the discs get scratched when people decide to change the orientation of their XBOX 360 while this disc is spinning. So lets say that they have a game in the XBOX 360, they hit pause and suddenly decide, "I don't like how this thing looks horizontal, let me sit it vertically and see how it looks". During that transition, the spinning disc will actually collide with the tray and cause extreme damage to the disc rendering it useless. Oh and there is also a loud grinding noise.

Anybody stupid enough to damage their game this way probably deserves to pay for the replacement fee as it is. This information has been relayed to me and confirmed by a regional manager at Gamestop and given the number of stores he manages, I'm quite willing to take his word for it.

--
I love idealists not because I am one, but because they make life bearable for pragmatists such as myself.

Re:My sources tell me... by Claire-plus-plus · 2006-01-02 02:32 · Score: 1

2 months ago someone kicked over my PS2, knocking it from vertical to horizontal with force. It knocked it around enough that the console never worked quite right again. However, when I replaced the console the disk was still perfect. Now, my case might have been a freak occurance but tell me this: why can they make CD walkmen that can handle being used by joggers without scratching the disk but Micro$oft with all their funds can't make a console that can be moved from vertical to horizontal without scratching the disk?

--
99 bottles of beer in 175 characte
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:37 · Score: 0

why can they make CD walkmen that can handle being used by joggers without scratching the disk but Micro$oft with all their funds can't make a console that can be moved from vertical to horizontal without scratching the disk?

because a discman spins considerably slower than a 8x DVD-ROM drive.
Re:My sources tell me... by gamorck · 2006-01-02 02:44 · Score: 1

When your PS2 was knocked over, was the disc spinning at the time? It is my understanding that the 360 keeps the disc spinning most of the time. I don't remember the PS2 doing that....

--
I love idealists not because I am one, but because they make life bearable for pragmatists such as myself.
Re:My sources tell me... by jbrandv · 2006-01-02 02:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

No. You never own the media, only a license. They should be replaced no charge. Thank RIAA!
Re:My sources tell me... by everphilski · 2006-01-02 02:52 · Score: 1

Read up a few posts. Guy knocked his over and both the console and the disc made it just fine.

It knocked it around enough that the console never worked quite right again.
but Micro$oft with all their funds can't make a console that can be moved from vertical to horizontal without scratching the disk?

Doesn't sound like Sony did too well in the department either, heh, if the console never worked quite right again...

-everphilski-
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:52 · Score: 0

No, because discmen lock the CD in place. Ever used one? Idiot.
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:59 · Score: 0

Yes I have and the far lower rate of spin massively reduces the perpendicular forces on the disc that lead to the scratching. The lock may help but the spin is more important.
Re:My sources tell me... by SonictheHeadshot · 2006-01-02 03:07 · Score: 1

A Data DVD is usually spinning faster than a CD Audio Player. For a nice experiment try copying some Data from a DVD in your Laptop during which you start moving it from Horizontal to Vertical.
Re:My sources tell me... by tgd · 2006-01-02 03:22 · Score: 1

I wish I had mod points to counteract the doofus who modded you a troll.

Parent post is exactly the problem, as has been published all over the place. And most if not all tray-load disc players have the same problem.
Re:My sources tell me... by kindbud · 2006-01-02 03:40 · Score: 1

Screw Gamestop. They made EB Games stop buying used PC games after the acquisition. Gamestop managers know barely enough to tie their own shoes and get to the store.

Of course, you don't own the disk, you are assigned a license that is in force only so long as the disk is readable, not that this condition is spelled out in the "contract" you never agreed to.

Anybody stupid enough to put a game console out that so easily damages disks ought to bite the bullet and perform a recall. But of course that would be the right thing to do, the thing that would treat customers with respect. But of course with customers like you ready to blame yourself for the inferior product you bought, why the hell should they care?

--
Edith Keeler Must Die
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:40 · Score: 0

A question; you don't have kids,animals around the house don't you ?

My PS2 has been tipped multile times, the number of broken scratched discs ? zero
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:51 · Score: 0

Err no. You own the media but not the content. You have a license to use the content. Screw up the media and you're on your own.
Re:My sources tell me... by LHN · 2006-01-02 03:52 · Score: 1

Quick boys, now is the time to lawyer up and attack. Like a properly planned out chess move. Can we say class action lawsuit? We either *own* the software and its our responsibility, or, we either *liscense* the software and its the developers responsibility.

Ive always learned I cant have my cake and eat it too. Why can they?

--
Where I post game reviews, my PSP backgrounds, podca
Re:My sources tell me... by LightForce3 · 2006-01-02 03:57 · Score: 3, Informative

CD Walkmans are much less likely to scratch CDs because the CD is held in place parallel to the disc tray. When you push the CD onto the spindle, the little nubs at the top of the spindle hold it in place. Laptop optical drives work the same way.

AFAIK, tray-loading optical drives (like those in PCs and game consoles) only have a taller conical spindle and something to apply a little pressure to hold the disc in place. I'm not familiar with the internal workings of tray-loading optical drives, so I can't say for sure. However it works, it's obviously not very effective. ;)
Re:My sources tell me... by geminidomino · 2006-01-02 04:44 · Score: 1

Note: If you have a cheap laptop optical drive, do not perform this experiment without eye goggles, helmet, protective gloves and a titanium collar.

Man, Diablo can FLY.
Re:My sources tell me... by kerecsen · 2006-01-02 06:44 · Score: 1

It also helps that they spin the disc about 40 times slower...
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:08 · Score: 0

There's a video of that here.
Re:My sources tell me... by Bob9113 · 2006-01-02 07:28 · Score: 1

My sources tell me that the discs get scratched when people decide to change the orientation of their XBOX 360 while this disc is spinning.

What do "your sources" say about the fact that MS is repairing or replacing the units in question? Do you see the internal logic problem there? Isn't it a tiny bit more likely that, much like the early PS2's before, there is in fact a manufacturing defect? Wouldn't that jibe well with the production problems MS was having when trying to make the Christmas deadline? Doesn't that seem a bit more credible given that MS is repairing or replacing the units in question? If it was just about reorienting, wouldn't the MS tech simply say, "Please don't move the unit while it is in use."? How stupid would MS have to be to RMA units that were in fact not defective? Wouldn't that be implying guilt where none existed? Beyond the expense involved in RMAing a product (certainly well into the tens of dollars per unit), wouldn't it also be increasing their potential exposure to disc replacement requests? What color is the sky on your planet?

--
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Re:My sources tell me... by Trixter · 2006-01-02 09:03 · Score: 1

"CD Walkmans are much less likely to scratch CDs because the CD is held in place parallel to the disc tray"

No, CD walkmans are less likely to scratch because they spin at 1.5 or 2X the rate needed to read the CD; very low RPMs. The Xbox360 spins at crazy RPMs for speed -- at that point, the disc+drive is a gryoscope. You remember what it felt like to try to move a gyroscope as a kid, right? The damn thing generates its own gravity.

Anyone stupid enough to move their console while the disc is spinning deserves to learn a lession from the experience and pay for the replacement fee.
Re:My sources tell me... by Geoffreyerffoeg · 2006-01-02 09:06 · Score: 1

the little nubs at the top of the spindle hold it in place

Little nubs? I just had a mental image of a bunch of miniature unskilled FPS players holding down a CD...
Re:My sources tell me... by Osty · 2006-01-02 10:11 · Score: 1

My PS2 has been tipped multi[p]le times

Wouldn't you learn after the first time to keep your PS2 horizontal? Besides, well-trained kids and pets will not go about knocking over video game consoles. With pets, it's very simple to train them. With kids, you can punish them (ground them, make them pay for a replacement console out of their allowance or lawn-mowing/snow-shovelling job if they break it, sell the still-working console and all of their games on Craigslist for $10 and refuse to buy them another one because they've proven they can't be trusted with sensitive electronics, etc). If you can't control your kids and/or pets, you probably shouldn't have either.
Re:My sources tell me... by ryanw · 2006-01-02 11:24 · Score: 1

That's pretty intense. It looks kinda' faked cause of the cuts but real enough to believe it.

Mod parent up.
Re:My sources tell me... by dangitman · 2006-01-02 12:20 · Score: 1

Shouldn't a device aimed at a wide audience (including children) be designed to accomodate this usage, seeing as many people do it? Isn't it the job of an engineer to make things easier for people, rather than more difficult? Calling people stupid for a fairly normal use of the product isn't very productive.
Imagine if companies actually marketed their gear that way: Use our product! It's more difficult to use, less reliable - and we'll call you stupid if you use it!"
Kind of the opposite of the "everything's easy as ABC" way that this stuff is marketed. Does the company expect the consumer to disbelieve their advertising? "Oh, we told you it would be easy before you bought it, but now we have your money and you are stupid for believing us when we said it would be easy."

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:My sources tell me... by dangitman · 2006-01-02 12:24 · Score: 1

For a nice experiment try copying some Data from a DVD in your Laptop during which you start moving it from Horizontal to Vertical.
OK. I just tried this on my slot-loading iBook DVD drive. I felt some gyroscpoic force, but the disc was totally unscratched, and the copying unaffected. I even tried doing it rapidly and shaking the machine around. Not a single hitch.
So why can't the Xbox be made like the iBook?

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:My sources tell me... by dangitman · 2006-01-02 12:28 · Score: 1

The Xbox360 spins at crazy RPMs for speed -- at that point, the disc+drive is a gryoscope. You remember what it felt like to try to move a gyroscope as a kid, right? The damn thing generates its own gravity.
Gyroscopic force. Big deal. If rotational speed is the only issue, why is my laptop's DVD drive immune to scratching when I move it while it is spinning at full speed?

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:My sources tell me... by Vlastyn · 2006-01-02 13:22 · Score: 1

It's kind of ridiculous that this would scratch a disc when Microsoft was promoting this as a feature. IIRC, it was on G4TV's Icons series where Microsoft demonstrated how the lights on the front console (which indicate what controllers are plugged in) change their orientation when the XBOX is moved to horizontal or vertical. Why would the console do this if they didn't expect their users to move the XBOX while powered on?
Re:My sources tell me... by lachlan76 · 2006-01-02 14:16 · Score: 1

Do you ground your kids when they trip while carrying a glass?
Re:My sources tell me... by Osty · 2006-01-02 14:28 · Score: 1

Do you ground your kids when they trip while carrying a glass?

And that translates into knocking over a vertical PS2 how? But depending on circumstances, yes I might punish the kid. For example, if the kid is running with the glass and trips, I might (running around and playing is fine, but they shouldn't be carrying a glass while doing so, and it shouldn't be done where electronics are present). There's more punishment available than grounding, you know (put the kid in a corner for 5 minutes, take away TV for a day, banish him to go play outside, etc).
Re:My sources tell me... by lachlan76 · 2006-01-02 14:37 · Score: 1

Well bear in mind that turning on/changing discs in a console is an operation which encouraged falls (ie. bending down to get the game/put it in). If over the course of months/years it got knocked over several times I wouldn't be suprised.
Re:My sources tell me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 14:53 · Score: 0

You don't need a disc in the tray to power on the console. There are many things it can do without a disc, including play games.
Re:My sources tell me... by Osty · 2006-01-02 15:04 · Score: 1

Well bear in mind that turning on/changing discs in a console is an operation which encouraged falls (ie. bending down to get the game/put it in). If over the course of months/years it got knocked over several times I wouldn't be suprised.i>

Now I'm just being obstinant, but here goes: Why would you need to bend down to access your game console? It should be up in a well-ventilated entertainment center, not down on the shag. Besides, once you've knocked it over once (twice if you're stubborn), you'd learn and move the console to its horizontal orientation.
Re:My sources tell me... by Vlastyn · 2006-01-02 15:33 · Score: 1

Oh, right, so they put a sensor in there to tell when it's moved but uh, you're not supposed to do it when you have a disc in the drive. What is the console's primary function? To play games- Majority of which come on DVD. Unless you're telling me that the majority of owners prefer Live Arcade to retail games?
Re:My sources tell me... by Claire-plus-plus · 2006-01-03 02:01 · Score: 1

I think we know the answer to this one but to say it out loud will start one of THOSE flame wars.

--
99 bottles of beer in 175 characte
Re:My sources tell me... by Trixter · 2006-01-03 08:44 · Score: 1

Because it's not spinning at a high enough rate. Most laptop drives aren't "high performance" due to size and power considerations. My Thinkpad drive has three modes, and even the "high performance" mode is only 4X DVD rate (verified with Nero CDSPEED tool).

But the more alarming question is, why are you deliberatly tilting your drive while it's in operation? To test the theory?? That's like saying "I've seen glass shatter; I know that hammers are strong and heavy; let me hit my car window with this hammer to see if a hammer is strong and heavy enough to shatter glass!"
Re:My sources tell me... by dangitman · 2006-01-03 09:46 · Score: 1

But the more alarming question is, why are you deliberatly tilting your drive while it's in operation? To test the theory??
Because I want to know if I have a badly designed system that won't tolerate normal use. There's nothing in the manual about not doing it. It's only an iBook, it's not like it's worth much.

--
... and then they built the supercollider.
Re:My sources tell me... by MikeBabcock · 2006-01-04 04:30 · Score: 1

Note to Sony: make sure your PS3 drives have good locking mechanisms to hold the disc level w.r.t. the box so as to not cause disc scratches.

Not that the PS2 ever had this problem ;-)

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

How about a nice RTFM.. by Keruo · 2006-01-02 02:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

The console manual quite clearly states that "do not move the console while it's operating a disc".
If someone managed to wreck their rented disc, all they can blaim is themselves, and pay the repair fee.
Some home insurances might even compensate the destroyed disc, if you claimed it as an accident.

--
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.

Re:How about a nice RTFM.. by JLennox · 2006-01-02 02:57 · Score: 1

I can only assume that the disc cost under your $250, $500, or $1,000 dollar deductable.
Re:How about a nice RTFM.. by Detritus · 2006-01-02 03:12 · Score: 1

You are assuming that the physical media is within specifications and that the drive is also properly aligned and balanced. I wouldn't automatically blame the end user. How good is the quality control at Microsoft's parts suppliers and assembly plants? They used a bunch of flakey DVD drives in the original Xbox.

--
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Re:How about a nice RTFM.. by Surt · 2006-01-02 03:46 · Score: 1

Are you kidding (I assumed so, but your moderation is insightful)? What fraction of people do you think move their consoles, ever after the initial placement in the entertainment area? There might be some end-user cause to disc scratching, but i'm fairly sure this isn't the explanation. Personally, I think a more logical guess might be that a certain percentage of the xbox360s have a slight misalignnment in their spin motors. Should the unfortunate owner be required to pay for that, or should they be able to ask microsoft for a replacement of the defective part?

--
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Re:How about a nice RTFM.. by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 05:39 · Score: 1

The console manual quite clearly states that "do not move the console while it's operating a disc". If someone managed to wreck their rented disc, all they can blaim is themselves, and pay the repair fee.
That's BS. First, you cannot expect everyone to RTFM. They would in an ideal world, but we don't live there. "Fixing" engineering flaws by turning them into "don't do this!" fine print won't get you very far.
Second, people use walkmen and laptops with spinning optical drives on a regular basis. Their experience tells them it's perfectly OK to move a running electronic device. I know there are differences, but the average person on the street shouldn't be expected to.
If movement is really the cause of all these problems, then the right ways to handle it would be to 1) fix the defect, or at least 2) put a big orange sticker on the loading tray saying "DO NOT MOVE THIS UNIT WHILE IT IS TURNED ON" so that they can't possible use the machine without physically removing the sticker.

--
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:How about a nice RTFM.. by truesaer · 2006-01-02 10:36 · Score: 1

Some home insurances might even compensate the destroyed disc, if you claimed it as an accident.

Damn, my homeowner's insurance deductible is 1% of my purchase price....games sure are getting expensive!!

disc condoms by Unknown_monkey · 2006-01-02 02:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

COMPUsa has a solution that I can't find the link to right now. It's a condom for the CD, a clear cover that goes over the data side of the disk to protect it. YMMV as I have not tried it yet. But I think that when I get a X360 I'll buy them just to improve my scratch resistance and to have something else to blame when my X360 crashes.

Construct your future, get a new job! Jobdot.org. Not affilliated with Slashdot.

--
Why are women so complicated? Find out how little I know here.

Re:disc condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:40 · Score: 0

Where... what are they called?
Re:disc condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:46 · Score: 0

They are called D_Skins and they work very well, I use them on all of my Windows XP Cds and Other high value ones. http://www.d-skin.com/
Re:disc condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:18 · Score: 0

???

Since when is Windows of high value?
Re:disc condoms by gabrieltss · 2006-01-02 04:14 · Score: 2, Informative

I have tried them before - don't bother! I bought some to protect my son's DVD's so they wouldn't get scratched. Guess what The DVD player wouldn't even read the DVD. I pulled the thing off and it read just fine. Also they are a pain in the arse to put on and get the stupid air bubbles out from between the cover and the DVD/CD.

--
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Re:disc condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 04:42 · Score: 0

it costs a lot more than a game. unless you're a criminal who steals it, in which case you have a non-functional value system anyway.
Re:disc condoms by geminidomino · 2006-01-02 04:47 · Score: 1

You got off lucky. An ex-girlfriend tried one of those on her PS2. It came off INSIDE and completely jacked up the works.

Took me Six hours to get that thing fixed. I'm glad she had the presence of mind to turn it off when it started crunching.
Re:disc condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:30 · Score: 0

Not many people try to have sex with their optical media
Re:disc condoms by TomHandy · 2006-01-02 05:44 · Score: 4, Funny

I hate it when my disc condom comes off inside my girlfriend's PS2.
Re:disc condoms by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 08:26 · Score: 2, Funny

Perhaps you need to buy wrappers more appropriately sized to your disc.

--
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:disc condoms by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 14:44 · Score: 0

Did some research... seems taht DiscDefnder's are possibly better. Maybe even able to play in a car cd player for example.

Content or media? by nurb432 · 2006-01-02 02:24 · Score: 2, Informative

So what are we buying/renting here? The content or the media?

Sounds like a double standard here.. where the consumer gets screwed no matter what.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:Content or media? by JediLow · 2006-01-02 03:07 · Score: 1

Its a moot point - what matters is that the disk that GameFly would send you is damaged. Its the same thing as borrowing something from a friend and breaking it.
GameFly really is being fair by letting the user get their first one free and warning them. They could just charge you for the damage without telling you anything - or with the first disk. They're a company and they can't afford to constantly absorb the costs for people who rent a game and scratch it (badly enough so its unplayable) over and over.
Re:Content or media? by nurb432 · 2006-01-02 04:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

No, its not a moot point.

If you are only renting/buying content use, then the disk should be almost zero cost to replace when one is damaged. In this case 'consumers' should be getting disks 'at cost' for replacement. ( this includes gamefly since they 'bought' it )

If you are buying *both* content use and the actual media then it sort of upsets the entire concept of fair-use backups that the media industries are fighting against.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Re:Content or media? by Pofy · 2006-01-02 07:18 · Score: 1

>So what are we buying/renting here?

A copy of the game. See the US copyright law for the definition of a copy for copyright purposes if you want. Basically a copy is content fixated onto some media.
Re:Content or media? by nurb432 · 2006-01-02 07:36 · Score: 1

"Right to use" would be more accurate.

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Re:Content or media? by Pofy · 2006-01-02 22:39 · Score: 1

>"Right to use" would be more accurate.

There is no such thing. Or rather, there is nothing that prevents or forbids use to start with, hence no need for any "right to use".

Why not? by gcnaddict · 2006-01-02 02:27 · Score: 0, Redundant

When Microsoft rushes something out the door (in this case, the XBox 360), there will be problems which inevitably show up. In any case, you have a warranty on it, and should Microsoft ever acknowledge that there is anything wrong with the game consoles, you can get a full repair/replacement :-)

By the way:
"I've spend $400 on that console and don't want to hear bad news about it."
The perfect active indicitive would be "spent," not "spend."

--
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/

Re:Why not? by Retroneous · 2006-01-02 03:08 · Score: 5, Interesting

I feel like a complete fool. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways.

I've paid retail price (not eBay price) for an Xbox360 with PGR3, Call of Duty 2 and Condemned. I've plugged the console in, put a game in, sat down in my favourite chair - and played three incredibly addictive and FUN games. It hasn't crashed once (because I didn't lag the power supply with fourteen blankets) and it hasn't scratched a disc (because I haven't moved the console from vertical to horizontal whilst a disc is spinning) - yet.

What an idiot I am! I got to play games that I enjoyed. I must be missing the point, but I thought that was the idea of this pasttime that we call gaming. If it isn't, then somebody please show me exactly what the point is, before I "waste" even more of my money on having fun.

"and should Microsoft ever acknowledge that there is anything wrong with the game consoles, you can get a full repair/replacement" - RTFA. Microsoft DID acknowledge the problem.

--
My Mind Is Rewired. Is Yours?
Re:Why not? by WebCrapper · 2006-01-02 03:41 · Score: 1

Quote from MSFT: "We have received a few isolated reports of consoles not working as expected. The call rate is well below what you'd expect for a consumer electronics product of this complexity."

I barely call that acknowledging the problem. In the support world, thats admitting they've had calls, but not enough to merrit an investigation on the units. If everyone where calling in, they'd openly admit they've had a lot of complaints about it and where doing an investigation on the issue.

To me, buying a new gaming system right when it comes out is like buying new software on the v1 release date. Its going to have a few problems, so wait a little bit for them to be ironed out.
Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 04:51 · Score: 0

In any case, you have a warranty on it, and should Microsoft ever acknowledge that there is anything wrong with the game consoles, you can get a full repair/replacement

Not to be a Jerk, but Microsoft's warranty really sucks:

90-Day Express Warranty. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Limited Warranty, Microsoft warrants you to only (the original purchaser), that under normaal use and service the Xbox Product will substantially conform with the accompanying printed user instruction materials for a period of 90 days starting as of the date of your sales receipt (the "Warranty Period")

http://assets.xbox.com/en-ca/pdf/english-f.pdf

Wheras Sony has a good warranty

Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA) warrants to the original purchaser that each of the constituent products of this "PlayStation2" console shall be free from defects in material and workmanship for a period of one (1) year from the date of purchase (the "Warranty Period"). If one of more of the above-identified products is determined to be defective during the Warranty Period ...

And Nintendo's warranty Kicks ass:

Nintendo of America Inc. ("Nintendo") warrants to the original purchaser that the hardware product shall be free from defects in material and workmanship for twelve (12) months from the date of purchase. If a defect covered by this warranty occurs during this warranty period, Nintendo or a NINTENDO AUTHORIZED REPAIR CENTER will repair the defective hardware product or component, free of charge. The original purchaser is entitled to this warranty only if the date of purchase is registered at point of sale or the consumer can demonstrate, to Nintendo's satisfaction, that the product was purchased within the last 12 months.

Nintendo's rules for one reason, great customer support:

"My Gamecube broke, I bought it 11 months ago"
"Do you have a recipt"
"No, that was 11 months ago"
"Well, whatever ... we'll repair it anyways"
"cool, when will I get it back"
"The'll ship a refirbished system immediately; you'll be able to pick it up in a day or two"
"Awsome"

Having had to deal with warranty repairs/replacement from various companies (including Sony), I have never dealt with a company which was so customer support focused (either that or apathetic) than Nintendo.

A 3 month warranty on a $400 piece of eqipment = The Suckage
Re:Why not? by Mondoz · 2006-01-02 05:57 · Score: 1

"- RTFA. Microsoft DID acknowledge the problem."

I missed the bit where it said they would pay all the fees related to scratched discs. Perhaps they'll just acknowledge the fees.
I'd like to acknowledge the problems with the 360, and I plan on staying away from them as a result.

BTW, I love reading stories from people who haven't yet had problems with a faulty product. Their experience is fine, so it must be a good product. Everyone else must not know what they're doing.
Thank you for the anecdotes. :)

--
/sig
Re:Why not? by superpulpsicle · 2006-01-02 06:45 · Score: 1

If enough people buy this console later, they'll have to split the 1-800-4MY-XBOX line like any other support calls.

Press 1 for xbox blue screens.
Press 2 for scratched disks.
Press 3 for overheating.
Re:Why not? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 09:47 · Score: 0

Hey, if you can't spell perfectly yourself, why do you think you can correct others?

indicative
Re:Why not? by WebCrapper · 2006-01-02 10:21 · Score: 1

You joke, but oddly enough, I use to create the filter rules for a major ISP's Support and Service system... Ah heck - look at my history - it was Earthlink.

Anywho - I agree. With the newer stuff, especially from a company known to just throw anything out there, these things will always happen. My wife just recently decided she wanted an original NES. The thing just works. The Super Mario game works, my two Zelda games work - all these years later. I'd would LOVE to see the xbox in as many years with used games still working as they should.
Re:Why not? by Retroneous · 2006-01-02 11:09 · Score: 1

OK, check this out.

Friend of mine bought a 360 on launch day. Came over to mine at about 8pm on the same day. I ask him why he isn't still playing his 360 (which he'd specifically taken the day off work to do) and he starts complaining. A few select phrases...

The Xbox 360 is shit. Microsoft are a bunch of bastards and he'll be suing them if they don't refund or replace. The console has ruined his PGR3 disc. He hasn't even managed to set up his Live account as the console crashes every five minutes. What a bunch of bandits. Just like Windows 95. Crashes every five minutes and you have to reboot it. It shouldn't be allowed. I told you I should have waited for the PS3.

Mine's been absolutely fine and has been on for at least 6 hours. We go to his house to check it out. The power pack is tossed behind the TV and is sitting underneath a now-unused Gamecube which was pushed back out of the way in my friend's excitement to get his 360 "in place". We turn it on for a few minutes and even without running a game, the power pack is practically on fire and sure enough, the system freezes.

So we move the power pack to a sensible position.

The PGR3 disc has an elliptical scratch going all the way around it. "Did the 360 make any grinding noises at any point?"

"Well, I wanted to see if standing it vertically would cool it down a bit, in case it was crashing due to the heat. When I stood it up, it made a hell of a noise and then my disc was scratched."

"You moved it whilst the disc was spinning?"

"Uh-huh"

I just wonder how many people have a similar situation. How many of us are defaulting to "I hate Microsoft" - just because its what everybody else has told them to think? I personally like Microsoft, and think that what they've done with the 360 is good. My original Xbox had the bad drive problem, and Microsoft swapped my console out by courier on the day after launch. They haven't screwed me over, so why would I ever act like they had?

Oh that's right! This is Slashdot, and even if Microsoft were giving the consoles away for free, they'd still be a bunch of fucksticks.

--
My Mind Is Rewired. Is Yours?
Re:Why not? by floodo1 · 2006-01-02 12:26 · Score: 1

stop using whilst. its annoying.

if the powersupply is so sensitive to heat maybe MS should have put a sticker on it saying "leave unobstructed".
you act as if people should KNOW that the powersupply is going to get blazing hot. thing is NO other powersupply that myself or anyone i know gets hot like that. so its not really to be expected.

on the note of disc scratching by moving the console......again its a case of not so obvious. the key is the drive mechanism used. if they had used Gamecube style the disc is held securely in place so moving it isnt an issue. same with ps1 and dreamcast. so if they had used something else they could avoid this potential problem.
they prolly looked at the ps2 and found no one had problems with it so they assumed everyone would be fine. which most everyone is, cuz most people understand not to move it while its spinning. seems obvious.

however its not up to people to make themselves aware of the potential for problems, its up to MS to inform people BEFORE they move it while its on.

still tho i wont hold the discs against them for people that moved their console while the disc was spinning. power supplies they do lose on tho :)

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I KUT J00 M4NG!!!
Re:Why not? by Retroneous · 2006-01-03 19:59 · Score: 1

Stop using "tho", it's annoying.

--
My Mind Is Rewired. Is Yours?
Re:Why not? by floodo1 · 2006-01-04 06:53 · Score: 0

hahahhahhah :)

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I KUT J00 M4NG!!!

Not like Java by Uukrul · 2006-01-02 02:28 · Score: 1

Sometimes I wonder if a competing company is behind some of these stories.

Not like Java
Geeks are geeks because what they love, but also what they hate.

Microsoft has also a reputation for selling unfinished products, if people (consumers) don't know it they are going to continue buying faulty Microsoft products.

--
My city: Barcelona.

Yay! by dbucowboy · 2006-01-02 02:34 · Score: 1

Now we all have something to scratch our games after we have hog-tied our little siblings... :)

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This just in! 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population.

GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by gelfling · 2006-01-02 02:41 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I wound up replacing 3 PS2s under warranty replacement because of drive damage caused by GTA/SA and only that game. Very odd.

Re:GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:55 · Score: 1, Funny

As I understand it, you're not actually supposed to pour hot coffee on your console when you play the game.
Re:GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by THESuperShawn · 2006-01-02 04:01 · Score: 1

Sounds like someone REALLY liked that "Hot Coffee" mod.....

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Repant. Thy end is sheer.
Re:GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by gelfling · 2006-01-02 05:01 · Score: 1

Never even knew it existed at the time. Just wore out the drives. They started to audibly click then video buffer would seize then inability to start the game. CD worked fine on a 'new' machine.

Weird.
Re:GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by krunchyfrog · 2006-01-02 06:15 · Score: 0

I got the exact same problem, no hot coffee 'round here either. In San Fiero, my disc reads then displays a disc loading error. Most of the forums online say the only way around this is to use a HD cloner like Hdloader. I stopped playing until I install a hd on my PS2.

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printf($randomline(sigs.txt) \n "-- "$randomline(authors.txt));
-- myself
Re:GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:00 · Score: 0

Yeah, it's very odd when a program that continuously accesses a drive wears it out. Very odd.
Re:GTA San Andreas broke 3 of my PS2s by gelfling · 2006-01-02 07:06 · Score: 1

As opposed to the other, oh 3 dozen titles heavily used. Save the snarkism pal.

vocal small percentage? by speedfreak_5 · 2006-01-02 02:42 · Score: 1

You might not want to use that phrase. The problem isn't lessened when is just a few people experiencing it. That and the people I've heard use that phrase *cough*Congressmen!*clears throat* generally have something to hide or don't want you to think about when they say that.

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Why yes I am paranoid! Thanks for asking!

Damn those hip-hop DJs by iBod · 2006-01-02 02:42 · Score: 1

Why can't they just stick to vinyl?

1.0 by eclectro · 2006-01-02 02:45 · Score: 1

As much as Slashdotters rag on him, I think it was John C. Dvorak who first wrote about "never buy a zero".

This was before the internet, and I think it remains good advice.

--
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"

Problem? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:45 · Score: 0

Tis not a flaw, but a feature! A $300 disc shredder everyone needs one of those.

get rich quick by dtfinch · 2006-01-02 02:45 · Score: 0, Flamebait

Charge replacement fees for scratched disks, then rebuff/polish the scratched disks instead of replacing them.

Re:get rich quick by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-03 10:14 · Score: 0

Why is this flamebait? It's true; Gamefly has huge industrial cd resurfacers that can polish the nastiest scratches out of the non-label side of a cd.

Your absolutely right about the sensationalism by Hercules+Peanut · 2006-01-02 02:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

What about posting a story about the majority of Xbox 360 users that don't have any problems, instead of the (vocal) small percentage who do? Or maybe a story about the fast turnaround time of Xbox 360 tech support? (5-7 days for a brand new / fixed console, for a friend of mine)

I can honestly say that I have not had a single problem since I got my Xbox 360 on release day. (I am waiting on some games to push the hardware to its max, but that's a separate issue.)

That sounds like a great idea. While we are at it, what about the national media producing stories about the majority of high school students who didn't get shot in the classroom last yeat or the majority of Americans who didn't get killed in Iraq?

I can honestly say that I have neither been shot in HS nor killed in Iraq. What's up with this sensationalism anyway?

That's exactly what DRM is about. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 02:53 · Score: 1, Insightful

I don't believe these record/movie company execs are dumb enough to beleive the stuff they are pushing about lost revenues due to piracy. I am sure they lose some, but not enough to justify the jihad they are waging against fair use. I really beleive this is just a smokescreen to cover their real purpose: forcing you to either buy (or for them better yet to download) a different copy for every device you own. One for your living room home theater system, one for your kid's movie player in your car, another for the one in your bedroom, one for your computer, etc.
I also suspect that much of the "revenue losses from piracy" come from a combination of digital media not wearing out from extended use. So, as soon as all the people who are old enough to have bought a copy of a song on vinyl, and maybe a couple of copies on tape (they wore-out pretty quickly) replaced them all with CD's and then burned them to MP3's, the cycle was over and the sales took a nose dive.

happened to me... by Cardcaddy · 2006-01-02 02:56 · Score: 1

My 360 console scratched my Project Gotham Racing disk. You don't even need to turn the console from horizontal to vertical. I titled mine slightly to move a cord in my entertainment center and I heard the disk make contact. I was able to buff out the scratch, but the point is that I am able to rotate my original xbox with no problems. I feel the rules should apply to this also.

Re:happened to me... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:57 · Score: 0

umm so you have it verticly and think it should behave the same if horizontal?
I would assume by having the disk in the tray verticle, there would be wiggle room from side to side, where as if it was horizontal, it would be locked in much tighter by gravity and reader arm.

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Re:happened to me... by paleblue · 2006-01-02 05:01 · Score: 1

I think what he's trying to say is that his xbox didn't have this problem, this sensitivity to angle, and he doesn't understand why the xbox 360 does. He believes they should exhibit the same behavior (not scratching disks) in the face of the same situation.
Re:happened to me... by TomHandy · 2006-01-02 05:41 · Score: 1

The problem with believing that is that the XBOX 360 DVD drive spins the disc at a much higher speed (I think I read 12x for 360 games compared to 4x for XBOX games and I guess 1x or 2x for DVD's). And I imagine the other internals, etc. of the 360 are different from the original XBOX. But I assume it's the rotation speed that is the big factor here.
Re:happened to me... by paleblue · 2006-01-02 08:56 · Score: 1

That makes a great deal of sense, from an engineering standpoint.
But from a consumer standpoint, the xbox 360 is supposed to be a better version of the xbox, and so you should be able to treat it like an xbox and not be punished for it.
If I were the mother of a kid and I got him an xbox for christmas, I might not understand that it was different from an xbox, except that it plays a different type of game and my son wanted it. (That is exactly the understanding my parents have with regards to the PS, the PS2, and my brother.)
Consumers aren't engineers and shouldn't be expected to connect the dots.
Engineering view:
Better graphics => more information on disk => faster spinning of the disks => don't jostle the machine or else you'll wind up with a coaster.
Consumer view:
Xbox 360 => better version of Xbox => treat like an Xbox, but get better games.
I'm not trying to say that consumers are stupid, just that they shouldn't be expected to think about things. That sounds bad. I'm saying that you can't expect all consumers to think about whatever issue you think they should think about, and so you'll get scratched disks even though, if the consumer thought about the issue, scratched disks are easily avoidable.
Re:happened to me... by AK+Marc · 2006-01-02 22:16 · Score: 1

The problem with believing that is that the XBOX 360 DVD drive spins the disc at a much higher speed (I think I read 12x for 360 games compared to 4x for XBOX games and I guess 1x or 2x for DVD's). And I imagine the other internals, etc. of the 360 are different from the original XBOX. But I assume it's the rotation speed that is the big factor here.

It is the job of the engineers to take this into account, not the job of the consumers to guess at the internal workings of the device and treat it in a manner different from others of the same nature.

--
Learn to love Alaska
Re:happened to me... by TomHandy · 2006-01-03 01:09 · Score: 1

Right, I wasn't saying whose job it was..... I was just pointing out that there is a reason to not expect the XBOX 360 to operate identically to the original XBOX, as the original poster was saying. It's sort of analagous to expecting a car with a much more powerful engine to operate identically to an older model with a weaker engine.
I'm not saying that the designers of the XBOX 360 shouldn't have anticipated this or done something differently, nor am I saying that the end user should understand everything about the internals of the device. But I am saying that everyone should realize that there are fundamental differences in the hardware and capabilities, and it doesn't make sense to expect identical operation (i.e. to expect that a problem that didn't exist with the original XBOX shouldn't occur with the XBOX 360 as well, even though there is a fundamental difference in the speed of the optical drives in the two devices).
Re:happened to me... by sinrtb · 2006-01-04 08:08 · Score: 1

Keep in mind who the Xbox 360 is marketed at, it's not just us who understand the innerworkings of a computer and a console. It is marketed towards people who are not tech savvy. The majority of the people it is marketed towards may not even realize the disc spins! If it has feet on its side and on its belly then by gawd it should be able to sit on either, if M$ didnt want people to change the angle of which the game was playing they should not have suggest the consumer to do it.

we're screwed with carelessness. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:01 · Score: 0, Flamebait

"This kind of blows a big hole in the *AA's argument that all this copy protection BS is really about preventing piracy. It seems to me that more and more, it's about getting the customer to buy multiple copies of the same content. "

No it's not, but keep repeating that and *boom* like magic it will become true.

"This point is even more obvious when you look at the way the Blue-ray copy protection works. If you get even the tiniest scratch on the ROM MARK on the disc, the disc is UNUSABLE. Doesn't matter if the rest of the surface of the disc is pristine, your $30 movie is now worthless. (yes, $30, you know they're going to charge 2x or 3x what a normal DVD costs). "

And that's different from these new high-density Hard Drives how?

"That spells it out pretty clearly. The future is downloaded movies. And music. and games. And no, I'm not talking about DRM'ed ones that you pay for."

Well seeing as how we don't have Blue-Ray or HD-DVD (yet) this whole discussion is rather moot.

Re:we're screwed with carelessness. by c_forq · 2006-01-02 06:28 · Score: 1

And that's different from these new high-density Hard Drives how?

Because there are tools for getting data off the hard drives, but not for rescuing your disc. If you have a hard crash it can be very expensive, but there are firms that will use imaging techniques to recover data. Anything like that done on these discs is illegal, if it is even available.

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Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
Re:we're screwed with carelessness. by KDR_11k · 2006-01-02 06:59 · Score: 1

And that's different from these new high-density Hard Drives how?

You don't open a harddrive and exchange a platter if you want to watch a different movie. Harddrive platters remain in their protective cases for as long as they are in use and there's no dust or people in there to damage the platter (well, at least there shouldn't be...). Compare the number of scratches on the average harddrive platter and the average CD/DVD.

--
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
Re:we're screwed with carelessness. by gnujon · 2006-01-02 16:55 · Score: 1

You can also make backup copies of the data from a hard disk. These backup copies can actually be very handy if you carelessly allow one of your hard disks to crash.

Even an easier solution by LWATCDR · 2006-01-02 03:02 · Score: 2, Informative

Don't by them to start with.
BTW they will just claim that you abused the disk. But I do agree with you but it just isn't going to happen.

--
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.

Re:Even an easier solution by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 04:28 · Score: 0

but technically it doesnt matter if you snapped it in half in front of them.

because you bought the license not the media.

I'm not complaining by llamaxing · 2006-01-02 03:14 · Score: 1

I like to look at these sorts of stories from an optimistic POV.

You see, I really respect the people who buy at-launch consoles. Their fuck-ups let me know what NOT to do a year later when I buy one for myself. =)
Side note: Do not subscribe to GameFly....

Moving vehicle? by ayeco · 2006-01-02 03:18 · Score: 1

Does theh manual say anything about playing the 360 in a moving vehicle?

Re:Moving vehicle? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:58 · Score: 0

Yeah:

"Don't Forget to look in front of you from time to time " :)

His for the duration of rental by CarpetShark · 2006-01-02 03:24 · Score: 3, Interesting

Actually, it IS his copy of the game, for as long as he's rented it. Essentially, he has an unseen license with his copy. If that copy fails, the license is still valid, and he should be able to whip out another copy, and use it instead, without any problems.

However, anyone who buys an X-Box is supporting a company that wants to harm their rights, so it's a non-issue for me either way. Make your bed, lie in it.

Re:His for the duration of rental by wickersty · 2006-01-02 14:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

"However, anyone who buys an X-Box is supporting a company that wants to harm their rights, so it's a non-issue for me either way. Make your bed, lie in it." Oh, and I suppose that doesn't go for PS2, Gamecube, PSP, and eventually PS3 games either, right? No it's Microsoft, not anyone else... and it's those filthy xbox owners that are idiots for supporting such DRM, not the other consol-making companies as well...
Re:His for the duration of rental by idonthack · 2006-01-02 16:21 · Score: 1

No it's Microsoft, not anyone else
You're the only person who's said that.
---
I'm actually just a script.
Generated by SlashdotRndSig via GreaseMonkey

--
Why is it that when you believe something it's an opinion, but when I believe something it's a manifesto?
Re:His for the duration of rental by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 16:24 · Score: 0

I suspect that he'd gladly apply the same criticism to at least some of the others, but there is little reason to expect them to be mentioned in this thread. Perhaps you forgot that the current topic of discussion is very specifically X-Box.
Re:His for the duration of rental by mrchaotica · 2006-01-02 19:14 · Score: 1

And that's why I don't own any of the modern game consoles.

--
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

HOW the HELL can LIGHT scratch a disc ? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 03:31 · Score: 1, Funny

HOW the HELL can LIGHT scratch a disc is what I want to know

Re:HOW the HELL can LIGHT scratch a disc ? by msdschris · 2006-01-02 04:21 · Score: 1

I guess you dont have friggin sharks with friggin laser beams now DO YOU?
Re:HOW the HELL can LIGHT scratch a disc ? by dbucowboy · 2006-01-02 05:02 · Score: 1

Leave it to Microsoft to find a way...

--
This just in! 3 out of 4 people make up 75% of the population.
Re:HOW the HELL can LIGHT scratch a disc ? by FifthDream · 2006-01-02 13:33 · Score: 0

Ever hear of a thing called lasers? But this isn't what's happening here. The discs are being scratched when they touch something inside the machine, when the console is moved while the disc is spinning, for example.

um, have you ever been 11 and wanted something? by gullevek · 2006-01-02 03:38 · Score: 1

I can remember I was such a brat. I think all kids are like this. It's keeping a stand as a parent. It's like a never ending trench battle. Horrible :)

--
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919

get one from Japan by gullevek · 2006-01-02 03:41 · Score: 5, Funny

we got them plenty here. Nobody wants them.

--
"Freiheit ist immer auch die Freiheit des Andersdenkenden" - Rosa Luxemburg, 1871 - 1919

They have a surpluss in Japan. by 0xdeaddead · 2006-01-02 03:43 · Score: 0

Go there its cheap now! (check aa.com its $500 round trip at the end of jan). Failing that import one. I got my 360 before christmas, and paid just over $500, and its not the crappy 'core' thing but the cool one with the FFXI beta... The 'good' games are region free, as I swap between quake 4 & call to duty 2...

It's not just the xbox360... by Rihahn · 2006-01-02 03:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

It seems to me that, somewhere along the line, CD/DVD media moguls discovered that if they make the plastic softer people have to buy more CD/DVD media when it scratches. I mean, compare a CDR from the store today to a CDR from ten years ago... They're night and day as far as the plastics are concerned.

I guess it all boils down to the fact that the old CD advertising line of "Lasts forever!" is simply bad for business.

Re:It's not just the xbox360... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:12 · Score: 0

I think faster drives are the problem, not softer plastics.

Should read .. by schlumff · 2006-01-02 04:03 · Score: 1

"360 Degrees of Disc Scratches - a Serious Problem"

Controllers?? by ccharles · 2006-01-02 04:16 · Score: 5, Funny

having defective accessories like the hdd and wireless controllers

Ha! I can understand the power supplies, hard drives and scratched disks, but controllers coming without wires at all? Come on, people: let's have some quality control!

XBOX 360's in Nissan's scratching disks... by SMTBby · 2006-01-02 04:18 · Score: 1

If indeed the orientation of the XBOX360 is what is causing the the disks to be scratcked, how is this going to work in Nissan's concept car that has an XBOX 360 installed in the dash? Hit a bump while driving and the game is toast!

Re:XBOX 360's in Nissan's scratching disks... by aesiamun · 2006-01-02 04:42 · Score: 1

Considering that you control the game with the Nissan's steering wheel, gas pedal and brake, I highly doubt you'll be hitting much bumps while playing PGR3...

And if you're trying to do both, you probably shouldn't own your Nissan Concept Car...
Re:XBOX 360's in Nissan's scratching disks... by SMTBby · 2006-01-02 04:53 · Score: 1

Ah, ok. When I read about the concept car, I wasn't sure how the controls were integrated into the vehicle. The picture in my "minds eye" was built in console, screen(s) and controller jacks ( if wired controlers were used) or custom storage points for wireles controllers if not. But if the car isn't moving...well then, no problem. :)
Re:XBOX 360's in Nissan's scratching disks... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 13:56 · Score: 0

If you read the article, instead of just reading the title, you would find that the games can only be played while the car is in park, with emergency brake applied, and the engine off. Ergo, hitting bumps isn't an issue(unless you're being towed for parking somewhere too long).

Home owner's insurance? by infinite9 · 2006-01-02 04:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

Some home insurances might even compensate the destroyed disc, if you claimed it as an accident.

Kids, don't try this at home. Filing a home owner's insurance claim over a $50 game is just plain stupid. Depending on the insurance company's policy, they may count actual dollar amounts, or number of claims. But if you get enough of either or both, you run the risk of getting black-listed. Basically, the insurance company happily pays your claim, then drops you next year. When you go to find new home owner's insurance, every company will ask if you've been dropped in the last five years. Since saying no is fraud, you have to say yes. And they turn you down. No one will give you home owner's insurance. But your mortgage company requires it. So when you can't get it, you're force-placed, meaning the mortgage company goes out and buys a policy for you, then charges you for it. Can you guess how much that will cost compared to your current insurance? File a home owner's insurance claim when your house burns down, or when a drunk driver crashes through the wall and into your living room, or when a hurricane tears the roof off and it rains in your bedroom, not for stupid stuff like this.

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Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.

Re:Home owner's insurance? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 10:44 · Score: 0

That should be illegal. I've made dozens of claims here in Australia (as things always gets blown up every time there is an electrical storm). The smallest claim has been for $300, but I wouldn't hesitate to claim for, say, $100. If the insurer blacklisted me, I'd go straight to the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority and I'm sure the insurance company would be told to provide the service they advertise, and to stop discriminating against customers.

If the claims were fraudulent, there might be a case for them dropping you, but if you have genuine claims, they should provide the service they advertise.
Re:Home owner's insurance? by Godeke · 2006-01-02 16:36 · Score: 1

I isn't illegal though: they provided exactly the service the promised and paid the claim. Where it falls apart is that they are not forced to renew your policy when it expires nor is anyone forced to accept your business. Again, all legal. There are "high risk" markets that you can then go to (or as the poster pointed out, your lender will go to for you) but you pay a much higher premium.

The reality on the ground in the insurance industry of America is that you can only make catastrophic claims and even then you run the risk of being un-insurable. I personally ran into this problem because we were hit by a nasty micro bust that ripped our cooler off the roof and flooded the house with water. Because we made a claim for that (it was significant damage requiring roof and walls to be replaced) and also simply *inquired* about our washed out drive (which was far less significant), we were unable to renew. The problem wasn't the big claim, it was the *inquiry* about a small one that blew us out of the water.

I work in providing technology to insurance companies, and I can tell you this isn't unique or even unusual. If your local laws are different, well bully for you, but here in the states insurance has become a massive scam where the insurance company makes money off investing premiums, segmenting the market by risk factors (which defeats the purpose of "pooling" risks) and then punishing those who make claims. Welcome to American "Insurance".

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Sig under construction since 1998.
Re:Home owner's insurance? by JaxGator75 · 2006-01-03 08:57 · Score: 1

Auto insurance is no better... At least in Mexico, you can opt out of Insurance by paying off the cops whenever you get pinched. That's more honest, IMHO...

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Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

The possible cause of scratched discs. by r00td43m0n · 2006-01-02 05:05 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm an employee at EBGames and when we first received our demo unit we were putting in games left and right to see how they looked. One time one of us ended up moving the system to adjust something in the interactive. Later on when we were switching games we noticed the disc was scratched. It has happened a few more times but only when moving the system. I'm not saying not to slighty re-adjust it but don't move it from horizontal to vertical or any big changes to the current position of the system if a game is being played.

moving by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 05:42 · Score: 0

There is a very simple solution to this problem, just do not turn the xbox from vertical to horizontal while playing... Why even do that in the first place while playing a game, leave the console sit where it is, as iti s, no need to adjust it while its running cuz its inatiment and it doesnt care how it sits.
I have no scratches on my discs and ive been playing non-stop for the past few days and my discs are in mint condition underneath.

Microsoft slowly losing status by Wallstreetfighter.co · 2006-01-02 06:01 · Score: 1

It's perceived as a little thing but these articles prove two things. One, people really want Microsoft to fail. Two, designers and engineers are not keeping up with other tech companies. Losing market share in everything. Yes, it's still huge but every day more and more people WANT to find something else. When a replacement does come around they jump at it. Browsers, operating systems, software. Scratches on disks? not that big of a deal but it just give people more reason to wait for PS3. No buzz on have to have it at all. I've been an Apple an Apple guy since 78' so I'm a bit biased but I am an investor as well and hate to see it happening. Will the ever have the great new product? Time will tell

Hmm by vectorian798 · 2006-01-02 06:01 · Score: 1

How about "Don't turn your XBox 360 sideways or vertical when it is running with a disc inside". According to the article linked to from the article, the guy experienced this issue only when changing the X360's position DURING OPERATION.

Re:Hmm by mobets · 2006-01-02 13:35 · Score: 1

OMG don't move it! Just like the player in your car. You don't drive with the cd player playing do you?

Stop defending them, the product is flawed. This should not be possible.

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It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese

Re:The reason and the fix by marcop · 2006-01-02 06:12 · Score: 1

First read on Xbox-scene.com a few weeks ago.

360 Disc Scratching by BlazeQ · 2006-01-02 06:17 · Score: 0

Aww, I thought there was a new DJ function for the 360...

Troll-o-rama by ColdWetDog · 2006-01-02 06:25 · Score: 1, Troll

Must be some MS fanbois with mod points today. Two trolls in a row. (Maybe this will make it three - go for the trifecta guys).

Slashdot just goes to show that random moderation is not a reasonable model for improving Internet communication.

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Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!

Re:Troll-o-rama by d474 · 2006-01-14 18:22 · Score: 1

I want a Troll! I want a Troll! Puuuuuuhleeeeaze?! Troll-a-thon is now in progress.

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Authority questions you. Return the favor.

Article Title by rollinthunda0ne · 2006-01-02 06:43 · Score: 1

This article's title should be edited to exclude 'disc scratching'.

This happened on my PS2 by ZekeSMZ · 2006-01-02 07:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

I was one of those fools who waiting in line at 5 in the morning to be the first to get my hands on a PS2. I was lucky enough to procure one, and after a week of playing it - my Tekken Tag Team and SSX discs had circular scratches around them and were unplayable. I didn't move my PS2 while the drive was spinning - the machine just ate the discs.

Hopefully Microsoft will be a lot better about handling these repairs.

Initially, Sony wanted to charge me nearly 100 bucks for the privelege of them diagnosing the problem. (even though the machine was underwarantee). A few letters later, combined with multiple calls to the Better Business Bureau - Sony capitulated, repaired my PS2 and replaced my games.

The only downside is that when I got the game discs back in the mail, they all contained rootkits ;-)

Re:This happened on my PS2 by Just+Some+Guy · 2006-01-02 08:43 · Score: 1

Initially, Sony wanted to charge me nearly 100 bucks for the privelege of them diagnosing the problem. (even though the machine was underwarantee).
Out of curiosity, why did you even get Sony involved in the exchange process? The correct procedure is:
Store: How can we help you?
You: This game that I bought here is defective.
Store: Yeah? Go get another one off the shelf and we'll swap 'em out.
You: Thank you, Mr. Retailer!

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Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
Re:This happened on my PS2 by MikeBabcock · 2006-01-04 04:16 · Score: 1

I also never go the manufacturer; I'm not big enough for them to care in most cases, and its really the retailer's responsibility to slap Sony or MS around for these types of things.

"Look, we've got dozens of these defective XBox 360's, we're returning them for full refund. If you don't refund us, we're not carrying this crap anymore.

-- Walmarket"

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- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

Buh...buh... by Urusai · 2006-01-02 07:30 · Score: 1

They're gonna take their ball and go home if we don't play by their rules! I mean like, they are gonna stop making music and movies! Imagine a world without Britney, without "Christmas with the Kranks"...I just can't do it!

Crap hardware by HalAtWork · 2006-01-02 07:35 · Score: 1

My portable CD and DVD players don't do this, and a console shouldn't either, I don't care what the compromise in redesign of the console would be.

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Twinstiq, game news

Totally Off-Topic by Lucidus · 2006-01-02 07:42 · Score: 1

I was just going to say something casual like, "Dude, your signature rocks," but what I mean is, I think your signature is important! Thanks. It occurred to me that maybe it was time to re-introduce this idea into our public discourse, but then I realized that both sides would use it (meaning entirely different things, of course) and it would probably end up just adding to the confusion.

OT: your sig by thatguywhoiam · 2006-01-02 08:26 · Score: 1

First of all let me applaud your comment:

You go out and get a baseball and a couple of mitts, and take him to the park and have a catch.

That was a fantastic response.
However here is why I am writing:

The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.

I am intrigued by your sig. What you are saying is, the American Dream is not to have material things and a confortable life, but to be left alone? And if I have that right, what would your reaction be to an Iraqi hoisting the same flag?

(Please don't take this defensively, I'm not some trolling democrat, I'm not even American. I'm just curious.)

--
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.

Re:OT: your sig by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 10:22 · Score: 0

Iraqies aren't allowed to have the American Dream. After all, it is the AMERICAN dream. The Iraqi Dream is something else, propably something involving give us our oil.
Re:OT: your sig by rbochan · 2006-01-02 10:28 · Score: 1

clicky clicky
clicky clicky

--
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.

AJAX, where are you now? by presleyster · 2006-01-02 08:38 · Score: 0, Troll

In a related story, AJAX360 scratches Google Disk (currently in beta) and gets sued for copyright infringement in space while Soviet Russia drinks on.

The reason why I won't buy any more games consoles by pandrijeczko · 2006-01-02 09:06 · Score: 1

I personally think it's disgusting that games/software companies charge money for the replacement of scratched disks when they also pile on the copy protection on CDs/DVDs to stop honest users making backups of disks they've paid anything up to $50/£50/50. As far as I'm concerned, there should be a minumum 12 month warranty period where disks are replaced free of charge if they go faulty - especially bearing in mind that a lot of young kids play these consoles who, in my experience, rarely know how to handle a disc correctly in their excitement to load a game on their machine.

I do own a Gamecube for about 6 or so games I want to play but can't on the PC but, apart from that, I always check for a "No CD crack" before I buy any PC game so that I can keep the CD safe in its case once I've installed the game - if I can't do that, then I don't buy it.

I think it's really about time games players on all formats started to treat the games companies with the same disdain & suspicion that they treat us with - if a lot more of us stopped buying the games until we were given guaranteed free replacements and/or the ability to make personal backups, that would force their hand to start treating the real customers properly.

--
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.

But the manual..... by bjoeg · 2006-01-02 09:29 · Score: 1

AFAIK the problem is related that people tend to move the console from vertical to horizontal position (and vica versa). But the manual to the xbox360 clearly states that you shouldn't move the console while disc is inserted. So microsoft have cleared their butts on this matter?

Eureka! by SteveXE · 2006-01-02 09:52 · Score: 1

Because gamefly says so it must be true! I do beleive some 360's are scatching disks...but so did many launch PS2's. How do we know the true circumstances? How do we know the consoles really werent moved, how do we know the 360 was level? I fail to see how something that isnt currently proven can be stated as much and posted on /. just because Gamefly has issued this note. More investigation is required.

Re:Eureka! by mobets · 2006-01-02 13:28 · Score: 1

Does it matter if it was moved? People carry around laptops, cameras, and portable dvd players all the time without scratching disks. Don't forget going over bumpy roads listining to a CD in a car. It obviously isn't too hard to make a player that can be moved without scratching. It's been done for years.

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It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese

Re:And here we see yet another reason...You Don't by Nom+du+Keyboard · 2006-01-02 10:06 · Score: 1

...to wait at least a year after launch before buying a new console. In addition to the cost savings, a chance to check out the competition, and developers learning to fully use the power of the new system.

You clearly don't understand the short attention span of today's youth, and the inability of their parents to stand up against unreasonable kid's demands that they must have the newest/best NOW! They all pay early adopter prices, while putting up with early adopter glitches. All this happens because there are too many people who just can't wait a few months for the latest + greatest.

--
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."

move along... by clragon · 2006-01-02 11:07 · Score: 1

This isn't as serious as most people think.
Companies such as these are keen on making a profit, when they see any problem that might prevent them from doing that they have to make a backup plan.
They might have goten only a few discs back that are scratched, but no matter how small of an amount that is they would still impliment this policy because they dont want to loose any money.
This is like the EULA in MMORPGS where it stats "we are allowed to ban you account for no reason" (something like that. They put a policy in place to avoice furthur inconveinence in the future.

400?! Pfaugh...I spent $625! by AmazingRuss · 2006-01-02 11:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Plus 100 on games, 50 on a second wireless controller.

But it does verily rock!

One nice thing about being classified as an adult is that I have the money to blow on kid stuff.

Standing console on end = scratched disks by AmazingRuss · 2006-01-02 11:15 · Score: 1

I had mine standing on end when I set it up at my inlaws house (who were very impressed by a 39 year old man trembling with excitement as he set up his new video game system, I can tell you).

I bumped it once while it was on, and could hear the disk go kerwhackata in there as the console rocked back and forth. The console sits on its belly now...as all consoles should.

I gotta admit, the thing looks cool standing on end, but its foolish to use it that way. I guess you could fault MS for putting feet on the side, and picturing it that way in the promotions.

clearance? solutions by real_smiff · 2006-01-02 11:17 · Score: 1

why can't they just allow a bit more space between the disc and tray? (assuming it's hitting the tray). i mean this hardly sounds like rocket science to solve. just have the spindle lift the disc further off, or have the tray move slightly down, whatever.

--

This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.

Re:clearance? solutions by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 12:47 · Score: 0

There is a maximum distance that the laser can be from the disc before it can't read properly. The lens carrier is what the disc will hit in many cases.

Planned defect? by atomic_toaster · 2006-01-02 12:36 · Score: 1

From what I've read, the main source of scratches occurring on the XBox 360 is when the machine is moved while it's turned on. Now, granted, I can see the silliness of changing it from vertical to horizontal with a disc spinning in the drive -- you wouldn't do that with a PC, would you? (Although, Joe Blow's common sense when it comes to electronics is fairly limited, I'll grant you.) However, the fact that you pretty much can't touch the box while it's running without scratching the disk (check out the previous comments about bumping the console, shifting it a little, leveling it off while running) makes me incredibly leery. Think about how many children play console games, and how rough any child is on anything they own... Assuming they follow the parents' instructions and never move the box intentionally, even! And what happens if you have a loose cable in the back or some such that you have to wiggle? Time to get a new copy of your favorite game! Essentially:

1) Market XBox 360's that require only feather-light touches to scratch discs.
2) DRM the media and the console to death so that it's damned-near impossible to play burned backup games of legitimately purchased discs.
3) Warn in manual that no-one ever reads that moving console could kill off media, so as to avoid legal repercussions.
4) Charge each console owner full price for replacements for scratched discs.
5) Profit!

Am I missing anything?

Re:Planned defect? by mobets · 2006-01-02 13:23 · Score: 1

Never had a problem with moving my laptop around with a spinning disk in it.

--

It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese

Why not wait? by FifthDream · 2006-01-02 13:11 · Score: 0

If you're going to spend $400+ for an electronic device, isn't it a good idea to wait a bit after it comes out, and see if anyone has problems with it? Unfortunately, people Want It Now, and can't be patient enough to see if something has problems, and if those problems outwiegh the cost of buying it. I guess preceived status of having the NextBigThing NOW is worth hundreds of dollars to some people. I'm sure some of the problems the 360 has now will be ironed out in the future, but no one wants to wait. Patience, people.

It doesn't take an "idiot" to do this by typical · 2006-01-02 14:25 · Score: 1

Just don't be an idiot who moves the console while it's on.

I think that this is apologism for something unacceptable. Hard drive based devices, okay -- they have a fragile read head that has to be incredibly close to the magnetic surface. Optical devices have big heavy read heads that stay well away from the disc, and especially on a console designed to operate in both horizontal and vertical mode, the thing should not barf with a little bit of movement. You'll notice that the problem isn't the laser's optics impacting the disc, but housing. The llama folks worked around the problem themselves pretty easily -- the problem is not fundamental, but a design flaw. I don't think that only an "idiot" would move a 360 while it's on.

Now, I don't expect Microsoft to replace 'em -- with the thin (well, probably negative, actually) margins of the console world, it's let the buyer beware. It's not just Microsoft, either -- all of the other console vendors have always had Rev 1 of their console be a lemon one way or another -- the stuff gets patched over time, and reliability improves. I expect that Rev 2 360s will have padding, though, as detailed in the article.

This *is* a really good argument for backups, though -- the fact that you can't create a legal backup of your game really sucks. I could see an amendment to the DMCA saying that if your product's mechanism uses a legally-unbypassable-under-the-DMCA-mechanism that prevents creation of a backup of your product, that you *must* provide a replacement product in exchange for a damaged copy of your product, on demand. This would be particularly relevant for DRM involving the deliberate corruption of CD error correction data -- in adding such DRM, CD publishers drastically shorten the life of their media (which kind of screws the customer, who probably is not aware of the technical details of various DRM schemes, and expects his new CD to age as well as normal CDs).

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Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.

The DMCA should be amended by typical · 2006-01-02 14:31 · Score: 1

You know, it's probably just concidence, but CD manufacturers that tried to "DRMize" discs by corrupting the error-correction data also neatly slashed the lifetime of their discs. Consumer thinks that he's buying a normal CD -- hell, he doesn't know anything about error-correction lookup tables or anything -- takes it home, can't back the CD up without violating the DMCA, yet he discovers that any scratches really screw over the CD.

I like the idea of providing a choice to device manufacturers -- you can have DMCA protection against the bypassing of copy blocking schemes to prevent backups if you want, but then you *must* provide, on request, a replacement product for damaged product (since the consumer is unable to create a backup copy himself). It'd be a win-win situation for consumers -- manufacturers have incentive to not just block copying on everything, and alternately have incentive to make products more reliable.

--
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.

I can't belive the hypocracy around here by Scudsucker · 2006-01-02 14:34 · Score: 1

Microsoft has a serious problem with one of their products, and everyone is willing to accept their lame excuse that it's an accidental manufacturing defect. Now if this were Apple, all the shrill Kool-Aid drinking Microsoft fanboys would be out in force, calling for the borg-like head of Steve Jobs.

Frankly, it makes me sick how Slashdot has become a haven for libeal, turtleneck wearing Microsoft fanatics over the last couple of years. All reason and logic get thrown out the window in the face of Bill Gates charisma and a shiny GUI.

Re:I can't belive the hypocracy around here by Scudsucker · 2006-01-02 14:39 · Score: 1

A folloup, in case anyone missed the satire

Ipod by o0m · 2006-01-02 15:35 · Score: 1

must be made by the same people who make the shells for the ipod

Re:The reason why I won't buy any more games conso by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 16:53 · Score: 0

/me is currently downloading the game Painkiller because of this same "suspicion" and "distrust" that companies treat us with. I already know the game disc will be loaded with copy protection, obviously require a CD key for me to even get online... so why fucking bother spending money to be inconvenienced? I have to sit here and type in a 500-digit CD key so I can play my fucking game, oh and what's more I get to listen to the loud-ass CD drive spinning away for the sheer purpose of proving I purchased the game? Fuck that, I'll start the download and have it ready to play in the morning, at no cost to me.

CD drive from hell by noidentity · 2006-01-02 18:42 · Score: 1

One of the CD drives in an old PowerMac I used scratched CDs up. It would leave a small ring of scratches about half way from the center, due to the smaller recess for mini CDs in the tray. Unfortunately I didn't figure this out until it had damaged around 30 or more of my audio CDs. I taught it a good lesson once I discovered that. Very frustrating.

Slashdot = bunch of bull by SilentChris · 2006-01-02 18:46 · Score: 0, Troll

I've been playing my Xbox 360 many many hours with a number of my friends. Not one of us has had problems with overheating, disc scratching, or anything else. The console hasn't raped my mom or taken my dog hostage. It doesn't throw up on my couch or wet the bed. It just does what it's supposed to, and I've been very happy with it.

Why Slashdot posts these stories is beyond me (well, actually, I know why: to get page views and ad revenue). The simple fact of the matter is this: every launch has a small number of consoles go haywire. Every time this happens, Slashdot et all post a couple of guys' opinions on blogs and forums as The Absolute Truth (tm). Meanwhile, the rest of us go on playing the games, hacking the console, etc. in various levels of merriment.

Don't believe everything you read. The Xbox 360 is just fine. Play a couple of games, judge it for yourself, but no need for the childish bashing. It's just going to repeat itself come the PS3 and Revolution.

Re:And here we see yet another reason...You Don't by lxs · 2006-01-03 06:37 · Score: 1

You clearly don't understand the short attention span of today's youth, and the inability of their parents to stand up against unreasonable kid's demands that they must have the newest/best NOW!

Actually, I'm thankful for the existence of these people, because they beta test and subsidise the development of new hardware for the rest of us.

Simply put ..... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-03 06:48 · Score: 0

You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

I was never planning on buying a 360, hell never even bought the original x-box. However after hearing everything wrong (because no one hears about the good) I don't think I'll waste my money and take that chance.

GameFLY is NOT the best by ClioCJS · 2006-01-03 06:53 · Score: 1

sorted by slot price:

PS2: DVD Avenue: $5.6-$7/slot, 2-8, 3=$6.66, 4=$6.25, 6=$5.80 PS2: RedOctane: $8.00 /slot, 2-3 ($8/slot@5or3,$9/slot@2) THINK THEY SUCKED BEFORE PS2: Intelliflix.com: $8.33 /slot, 3, + $5/rental for extra slots, DUE DATES but MORE CENTERS THAN NETFLIX PS2: RentZero: $9.33 /slot, 2-3 ($10/slot@2) PS2: GameFly: $10.00 /slot, 2-3 ($11/slot@2) PS2: RENTZERO.COM: $10.00 /slot, 2-3, USA CO PS2: NUMBTHUMB.COM: $10.00 /slot, 2 PS2: GetAnyGame: $10.00 /slot, 2, can submit own games to be rented for $2/pop PS2: TriggerFingers: OUT OF BUSINESS! NO SITE! My previous favorite! 5@$30 PS2: AngelGamer: OUT OF BUSINESS! PS2: MyGreenMonster: NO SITE PS2: RentaGame: NO SITE PS2: VeeGeeZ: NO SITE PS2: Gplay/GoVoJo: BAD SERVICE!! NO GO[VOJO]!!

--
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com

meta comment by real_smiff · 2006-01-03 11:57 · Score: 1

see, that was interesting and added something new to the discussion. where are the mod points? i hadn't considered the maximum distance, and how you would design around that?

--

This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.

Re:The reason why I won't buy any more games conso by MikeBabcock · 2006-01-04 04:14 · Score: 1

... that's just asinine.

The fact that you could go next door and strangle your neighbour with your bare hands doesn't mean you will, does it?

The fact that you could download every video game known to man doesn't mean you will, does it?

The volition to break the law is completely different from the ability.

If you want good games to come out, buy the ones you like so those companies make money.

--
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)

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360 Disc Scratching Serious Problem

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