Slashdot Mirror
Saddam Hussein Sentenced to Death
indraneil writes "Saddam Hussein has been sentenced to death along with his half brother. Three Baath party officials charged with Hussein in the killings of 148 Shiite civilians have been sentenced to 15 years in prison, while a fourth has been cleared.
He is to be hanged inside 30 days from now. Saddam Hussein has been given 10 days to appeal against the decision.
His lawyer has warned to a bloodbath if the sentence is carried out."
Unless they voted him to death via a web-2.0 enabled internet site, I don't see how this is an issue for Slashdot.
So, Saddam Hussein's verdict, the death sentence, is read 48 hours before the U.S. midterm elections...
That's just a coincidence, right?
But, when Republican congressmen are discovered to be gay pederasts, or famous evangelical ministers are outed for using methamphetamines with male prostitutes and the news comes out in the weeks prior to the election...
That's a deliberate attempt to time the news with the election, right?
What do you believe?
If you are an American Republican, you will incur the wrath of your fellow party members unless you answer yes to both questions.
What do you think the Iraqis believe?
Given that there are very few Republicans in Iraq, do you suppose it's possible that they might take a more cynical view on the timing of the verdict?
Could an appearance of impropriety by the Iraqi court could be, by far, the most reckless of the "October Surprises"? (Though neither in October, nor a surprise...)
U.S. troops could actually die in greater numbers because of such blows to the credibility of Iraq's supposedly new, independent government (and its courts).
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
I thought that this was an automatic appeal. After the appeal the sentence must be carried out within 1 month.
Anybody clarify?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Wow, now our troops can come home, it's over.
And just 2 days before an election, how convenient.
Cheers
* Carthago Delenda Est *
The US hand picked the judges and the sentence was a forgone conclusion.
Will Saddam get a chance to talk about how he had US support during the war with Iran? I doubt it.
Saddam shouldn't be executed he should be kept alive in a cell for the rest of his life as a lesson for the Iraqi's to learn from.
Executing Saddam will only turn him into a martyr.
Thoughts?
30 days from now? Pipe dream. The Shiites want their day (or years) in court with Saddam, no matter that the verdict will be the same. :)
... to come out of this. There'll be one less monster in the world.
So we have one man responsible for thousand of deaths (Saddam) and they're now liberated. Only since the beginning of their liberation, they've actually being dying by the thousands. The irony.
Infiltrated dot Net
Could it actually become any worse than it is? So far it seems like people are being killed just about as quickly as the killers can sort out who's a Shi'ite, Suni, or Kurd. The only way I could imagine it getting worse is if they stopped trying to sort out each other, which I doubt will happen.
"His lawyer has warned to a bloodbath if the sentence is carried out."
And that would be different from the current situation, how?
Where were you when the voynix came?
What do you think the Iraqis believe?
I can only guess, but I imagine it's along the lines of this: If the sentence is justified by how many innocent Iraqis Saddam has killed, maybe he shouldn't be alone on the gallows. Too bad for him that he didn't have the foresight to exempt himself from international law and basic human decency beforehand.
trial for genocide over kurds, and there still appeal to the verdict etc.. so it might take awhile before actual punishment
Several minutes ago, I saw this picture of him over on Wikipedia, and I just felt really, really sorry for him.
The man has already been stripped of his wealth and power, and imprisoned. Will killing him bring back the 148 dead Shiites?
Sure, go ahead, make him a martyr for the terrorists.
Ever since the "war against terror" has started, it has only created more trouble.
And with them four-finned Dolphins coming around, I think I'll thank for the fish, and join them, soon.
She: Hey, are you a traitor? Me: No, I'm atheist.
The article summary gets a few things wrong, one being that "should he appeal." The appeal is automatic. Also, he's not the only one sentenced to death.
So, Saddam Hussein's verdict, the death sentence, is read 48 hours before the U.S. midterm elections...
How could executing someone be a political football in any civilised country?
Look at the countries with the death penalty: other than the US and India there are hardly any democracies on the list. That would tend to indicate that, without a screwed up election system, being pro-death-penalty tends to get you elected out of office very quickly.
This is the thing about the appearance of impropriety. It's an important, and formal, concept in credible court systems like those in America.
If there may be an appereance that the verdict was planned or timed, you do things to avoid even that appearance.
Such as not announcing a verdict on the weekend before the U.S. elections.
I'm not saying for sure they timed it, because I just don't know. But I do know for sure that they could have waited 3 days and changed the whole image of the thing.
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
Heh, get it? Blood shower? Ah, not funny at all really. ;(
That's just a coincidence, right?
Meaning, "co" - "incident" - as in, two things, happening at the same time, yes. Have you not actually be following the trial? The Iraqi court has been pretty much right on the schedule they planned, but actually delayed a bit by some diversions (like one judge getting the heave-ho for speaking his opinion on things out of context, or Saddam's supporters wacking some of the legal team, that sort of thing).
I'm guessing, from your tone, that you probably think that supporting the new Iraqi government is a bad thing. We lost 100 military personnel last month doing that. Are you suggesting that's also part of some plot? Things are unfolding there as things are unfolding. Most things that happen there are painted as toxic-ly as possible in the media, and are definitely being used (however absurdly in some cases) as political attacks on the administration. Are you including that non-stop drumbeat in your it's-all-about-the-election rant, or only the things that are good? The people in Baghdad were out in the streets celebrating the sentence today. I supposed you think Carl Rove was out there with a megaphone directing the people?
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
President Bush signed a measure promising to bring home all American troops of the execution of Saddam is carried out before Election day, Army commanders say sorry to Rumsfeld, and media halt from association the GOP with NAMBLA. "Americans are now safer. Saddam will be justiced, our strong will on newkellur wehpinsh is showing in Korea. And our party is the party of God. This Tuesday, vote republican or Saddam's ghost will return." stated Bush at a NAMBLA convention...
Infiltrated dot Net
Punish killing by killing! Go hypocrisy!
damn you're right!, you got anymore conspiracy theories i can learn to believe in?
I'm a rabbit startled by the headlights of life
If the timing of this news is some sort of political stunt, it's not a very good one. It brings the ONLY closure that we will ever get out of a war that we will be fighting for the foreseeable future.
Similes are like metaphors
By your logic, we should be suspicious about all news that comes out in October and November, including the pederasts and the meth-using ministers, since it may have been framed by the opposition party.
I think you're confusing the average Republican voter with the Republican members of Congress who are beaten into submission by the Party Whip.
It's just plain nonsense to believe that even a majority of Republican voters beat each other up when someone assumes that Rove, Satan, etc. are political opportunists. Most Republicans would probably admit that Rove, Bush etc. play politics. But of those who deny it, only a fraction would actually get angry if someone were to assert it. They might disagree, but most wouldn't go balistic.
The country probably isn't helped by inaccurately demonizing all members of a party you dislike.
I must admit that I'm not normally in favour of capital punishment anyway, but in this case I really can't see any of the normal reason given for this sort of thing.
It isn't really going to act as a deterrent to anyone, and it's not like he's going to escape and regain power.
Regardless of what he's done, this is the killing of a defenceless man.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
if the world weren't full of fucktard creeps like Saddam to name just one we would not be discussing this at all. He is just one more monster on parade. Life is full of ironies and contradictions but to defend this man is incomprehensible.
So they've ordered his execution because he allegedly ordered the executions of others. Are they not then guilty of the same crime as he?
When the news covers stories about Bush going AWOL from his Vietnam-away-from-Vietnam National Guard service through the Summer during Bush's reelection campaign, Republicans call that timing "inappropriate", too - it's election season. Of course Americans don't usually pay attention to any non-entertainment stories until at latest right before we have to make a decision. So journalists have to tell political stories during political campaigns. When else should they do so? And since campaigns now are perpetual, the main activity of even elected politicians, when is the time to reveal ugly stories about politicians "running for election"?
This whole notion that news must come at a time convenient for politicians is insane - the worst attack on our political process other than the bribes at the root of most of the stories. It's like the "Free Speech Zones" Bush has created to make the rest of the country outside the Zones into a "No Freedom Zone". Free speech/press as long as no one can listen.
It's pretty clear that Karl Rove is the ultimate abuser of these political manipulations. On Tuesday, you get to fire your House representative if they're keeping Rove's machine working against us, and hire someone who can answer to you and your neighbors instead of to Bush and Rove. And probably your senator, too. Get a few of your neighbors together, get everyone to vote, and then go to any free speech zone - they're everywhere - and have an adult beverage while talking about how fun revolution can be when it's part of the system, and no one gets hurt.
--
make install -not war
*cough* Diebold *cough*
Yes, I have been following the trial.
Obviously if the government stabilizes and establishes order it's a good thing. The whole point of my post is that an appearance of impropriety, like the one today, undermines that. So it's now obvious to everyone what your guesses are worth.
Some people in Baghdad celebrated, others did not, and are undoubtedly busy planning some more of their usual, different kinds of "celebrations," or don't you follow the news.
Using generalizations the way you do, talking about "the people in Baghdad", tells me all I need to know about your level of understanding. Are those the same "people in Baghdad" who helped kill 100 troops last month? The same people who are both Sunni and Shiite, Iranian and Kurd? Not all "people in Baghdad" agree, or haven't you heard.
And it's spelled "Karl" Rove.
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
No, It won't quell the violence in Iraq, it won't help republicans in the elections and it certainly won't bring back any of the people he massacred but it will make 100% certain that he never comes back into power and massacres anyone else without other people paying the bill to house, clothe, and feed him in a prison. Show me all the sympathy pictures in the world, it won't change my mind the death penalty is meant for people like Saddam, he has more than earned it.
I think the invisible hand of the market has its middle finger extended
--A wise old fart named SC0RN
I am sorry, but I just don't believe this news until Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf tells it me himself.
For months I hung on his every word and was sure the American infidel invaders would not take Iraq.
(In reality, I welcome the verdict but not the sentence)
liqbase
No need for it to be posted on /. -- unless, of course, Slashdot is the only source of news for some people...
I wonder what will happen to Linux after Saddam is gone?
I'll go out on a limb here and disagree. I'm just pointing out the social pressures faced by members of the American right-wing.
Not that I'm advocating it, but I notice inaccurately demonizing all members of a party has worked wonders for them.
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
Man, you are so cynical. I mean sure, we invaded a country to topple a dictator with whom previous Republican administrations armed to the teeth in its war with a neighboring coutry we hate, who then had to be ousted from another neighbor we like to preserve the flow of gas to our SUVs, but was allowed to brutally quell an uprising by a group with undesirable religious affiliation, but then we got hit by terrorists and the current administration said "hey, where's that Iraq invasion plan we wrote on our first day here? Here it is -- cool!" and figured we were all so ready for vengeance we wouldn't notice them Mad-Libbing in some excuses for invading to fill in the spots where they had written "FOR DELICIOUS LIFE-GIVING OIL!", then used a slimy network of surrogates to defeat an actual war veteran lest they have to touch someone who actually served in uniform, so we could keep National Guard troops over there instead of having them to use in, say, New Orleans or something? But jeez louise, you think these people would be capable of timing out the guilty verdict in a country we *control*? CYNICAL. Come on, man, the Iraqis decided that on their own. They're the ones that gave him a TRIAL. Hell, we don't even bother to do that anymore! Primitives.
But back to Saddam: death by hanging? That's idiotic. I say we kill him with all of those WMDs he had!
Bemopolis
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
If they hang people for being responsible for the death of a hundred or so civilians,
Bush better not set foot on soil under their control or they might do the same to him.
That the left is opposed to democracy. The democratically elected government introduced the death penalty, and now it should not be carried out ...
No it will not bring back the dead, but it WILL do 2 things :
-> declare once and for all, and for everyone to see that killing is not allowed, which is a good thing
-> prevent anyone from helping him (kill even more), which is a good thing
-> prevent him from doing any further damage, which is a good thing
-> bring this criminal's death during a last display of public humiliation, where everybody is reminded that he was a murderer, which is a VERY good thing
-> kill this animal just as he killed his thousands of victims, which is a good thing
No, revenge is bad. But this is not revenge. This is a public, and final statement that nobody gets to kill.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"
Let him swing. Then have big piles of rocks available so after he's dead, people can stone him and make themselves feel better.
A blood bath? What the bloody hell do you think it is now, a tea party? I say hang the bitch, then burn him in the name of GWBUSH, our Lord and Saviour. Amen!
It appeals to the same folks who speak joyously of the hundreds of thousands of dead "towelheads" we've effected in iraq. So mostly republicans.
I think Saddam deserves to be punished as much as the next guy. He is categorically evil and I find myself unable to deny him the death penalty. But this is so convenient for the United States. He has a great deal to tell the world about how we supported the rise of his regime. How we tried to play Iran and Iraq against each other by supplying both with weapons. Eliminating Saddam makes us that less likely to see accountability for our past transgressions.
Now that Saddam has had his trial, it is about time to put Donald Rumsfeld (and other now prominent neo-conservatives) on trial for providing material support to a man we knew to be a brutal dictator.
Why bother.
I thought all along that he was innocent. You think you know a guy. I feel really bad now that we sold him all those chemical weapons. :/ He seemed so nice and he promised us they were for security purposes against Iran only and not for killing innocent people.
This is unbelievable! It shakes my whole world view to the core. It definitely makes me want to vote republican.
So Saddam is convicted of killing 148. The toll post-Saddam is 100,000 and counting (Iraqis) and 3,041 US military personnel. Beheadings don't count. If you ask me, I'd say 100,000 is not a bad number of casualties and we (GOP'ers) can justify the 3,041 Americans based on actionable intelligence that shows that Saddam Hussein was a terrorist.
We can all forget about Darfur now its obvious there could never be a more evil tyrant than Saddam.
America, we're (GOP'ers) asking you to forgive our sins, they're nothing more than political tricks by dems to sway the vote. We've brough gasoline prices down, we're bringing the troops home, we've got the largest unemployment ratio in five years. All is well. If you don't vote for us now, the dems will allow Rosary beads of mass destruction into America. They're (dems) secretly colluding with Osama, Kim Jong Il, and Idi Amin. And as God is our witness (keep in mind dems are really Satan worshipping sinners), if you don't vote for us terrible things will happen.
Infiltrated dot Net
Does it matter ?
Obviously both parties try to spin the news in their favor. Not just the republicans.
It gets worse. The dems are not opposed to finishing the war in iraq, they just want an election victory.
...this has NO business on SlashDot.
Perhaps life really is full of possibilities.
You know, not everything in the world is a conspiracy. sometimes timing in life is just strange.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
...except for us.
... they support terrorism!
If the left is opposed to democracy, then that means they're opposed to freedom, which means...
Damn bastards.
This has been headline news in other countries for weeks. I tried bringing it up once with almost no response, granted, I am not good with names and made the mistake of switching Hussiens and Bin Ladens names, but the cited sources, and a correction should have cleared up the confussion. I think it is horrible that they are executing someone as a political stunt. I think it is worse that I found no one else that saw it comming. I know there are other people out there smart enough to figure it out, but the fact that they were so few that I couldn't gain any support that this was wrong says a lot about the future of this country. This man was supported by the US for many, many years. He decides that he is going to rule his country instead of being a US puppet, and we execute him to gain a few votes. I think he should answer for his crimes, but the fact that it was published over a month ago that they would announce the verdict two days before the election is a crime in itself. Why not announce the verdict at the end of the trial. A fair and speedy trial does not mean that you hold off the verdict until it suits your political needs. If anyone wants to point out that a speedy trial is an American law and not an Iraqi law, then get the US delegates out of the Iraqi Constitutional writing process, get the American troops home instead of enforcing US Military Law in Iraq, and let the people have their country back, then put this man on trial. He is currently being tried in a country that has now constitution to give him any constitutional rights. They can throw out any law they don't like, and say that doesn't apply now because we are under new goverment. How can that possibly be a fair trial?
7 4&cid=16619178
My previous post:
http://politics.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2031
-- Only one, but all the others have to make sure they ignore it while denying they own clown suits.
Whaddaya mean, it's not funny? It was funny when you guys used it on Clinton. Cancha take a joke? Boy, you meth-using gay ministers and pedophile Congressmen sure don't have any sense of humor. Hey, hey, hey! Mission Accomplished, Mr. President. Bring 'em on! Yahoooo!
If you are an American Republican, you will incur the wrath of your fellow party members
Thank Buddha that American Democrats are free from the wrath of their party members for being independent-minded free-thinkers.
Hypocrisy is the very mindset of both the Democrats and the Republicans. They preach certain values, yet never live up to those values themselves. They condemn various ideologies or activities, yet participate themselves in such things.
Republicans preach daily about how awful abortions are. Yet they're the foremost supporters of executing people, be they criminals (who many times have been wrongfully found guilty), or political enemies such as Hussein. They also openly support the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, as we have seen recently in Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan. What's more, this sort of killing directly violates one of the Ten Commandments, which Republicans claim to hold dear, and try to force on others.
Furthermore, Republicans take a strong stance against homosexuality, and preach "family values". Yet we find out that many of the more prominent Republicans are paedophiles and/or closet homosexuals.
Hypocrisy forms the basis of the current American system of government. That's likely one of the reasons America is now so looked-down upon throughout the rest of the world. Hypocritical fools just cannot be taken seriously.
Saddam Hussein: 148 killings of Iraqi people in the town of Dujail: Sentenced to death
G.W. Bush: 650,000 killings of Iraqi civilians. Sentence? Oh wait...
One third of the world countries still use capital punishment (source: Wikipedia).
Mind you, I'm not saying he's innocent. What I mean is the death penalty is inadequate to him, to any human being and absolutely not acceptable to some people (me included).
We don't do this! This borders cannibalism. This is immoral in oh so many ways, I don't even have to use religion for this one.
Not to mention he was f****** put there by his very executors! It's kind of "we're using two weights and two measures and hang our former employee".
God have mercy on us because we don't have on those indebted to us.
"Look at the countries with the death penalty: other than the US and India there are hardly any democracies on the list."
Forgetting countries like Japan and South Korea, are we? Not that it matters. One way or the other, moral relativism should never enter into such a debate.
"That would tend to indicate that, without a screwed up election system, being pro-death-penalty tends to get you elected out of office very quickly."
And what if it did not? What if the majority of the voters really were in favor of capital punishment? Would that majoritarian stance magically make it OK? The majority is, by definition, at all times moral?
So long as we're not talking about a mandatory death sentence for a particular crime, the only question you should be asking is the only question that the courts should consider in such cases: does the crime merit the punishment?
Is the convicted beyond any sort of redemption? Can the convicted be trusted not to commit the same crime again? And if the answer is "no," and the convicted is to spend the rest of his life in prison, is it more fitting to the crime that the life of imprisonment is ended naturally or by the state?
Pinning your arguments against capital punishment on voter opinion is no better than pinning arguments for it. If the court of public opinion were so reliable, we wouldn't need courtrooms.
And how will keeping him in jail for life not accomplish those things? Do you think Saddam Hussein is such a criminal mastermind that if he ever broke out he could retake Iraq? Do you think there are actually Iraqis out there who doubt that killing innocent people is morally wrong and need a reminder? As for "kill this animal just as he killed his thousands of victims", that sounds exactly like revenge to me. Please, read what you're saying and think of the real consequences when Iraqis see that even their great American liberators punish people through barbarism.
Finally, what the heck does the left have to do with the comments above? Just because they disagree with the Republican government they must be liberals?
It's theatre. The court he was tried in has no legal standing over crimes that were perpetuated before the court was created. It was in every sense of the word a kangaroo court. He should have been tried in The Hague at the International Court of Justice. The problem with trying him there is that the US would lose control over the proceedings and would not be able to use the trial for their own political gain.
How many civilians have been killed as a consequence of the invasion?
US government: We put you in power in the 1980's. Now, we have no use for you, so we're going to invade your country, kill hundreds of thousands of people, blame you for a few thousand deaths under your leadership, and call you the "monster".
Well, since you're so sure that this was a well-timed coincidence, would you care to explain, rationally, how this will have any outcome on the election? The Republicans were always going to vote Republican and the Democrats were always going to vote Democrat. So I guess that just leaves the undecided voters, right? And are we to think that, upon hearing that Saddam has been sentenced to death, they are going to vote Republican solely because, uh, Saddam was sentenced to death?
Yep, that must be it. They were sitting on the fence and anxiously awaiting the Saddam trial verdict before deciding whether to vote Republican or Democrat on Tuesday.
Because all the Republicans who are running had an active part in making sure Saddam was sentenced to death, right?
May the suffer the same fate.
Hint: When you ignore all the evidence, you're the one with the conspiracy theories.
Any idiot can see that out of the 365 days of the year, it was extremely unlikely for this to be just a coincidence. Two days beforehand is the perfect amount of time for this to influence the election.
Ofcourse the US doesn't want anyone to know but even as I write this up a massive amount of people (we're talking several thousands of people per day) are now fleeing the country. Don't underestimate this movement or try to make it less significant then it is.. Even during the reign of Saddam have there been many small villages which never had much to do with all this. Some towns were quite happy with the leadership of Saddam, he didn't bother them and they didn't bother him.
Unbelievable? The world isn't working as the black/white scenario which bully bush is trying to show us, on the contrary. Heck, during the German occupation of most of Europe have there been several small villages (in France, Spain, Italy) which too never really got much involvement with the raging war.
And here we see that these people aren't merely re-locating, no, they're fleeing the country! I guess things aren't going the way bully bush is trying to picture them afterall. Ofcourse you won't hear this kind of news in your local media, its "not done" and might make some people think about this in a wrong way.
In other news, the supreme judge who was running the previous trial has also been sentenced to death. The allegations are a bit vague but it seems that some people did not like him respecting international laws and agreements and as such stating that Saddam was indeed the lawfull rules of Iraq during that time. And this is a good example of the democracy and freedom which has been forced upon Iraq.
Well... I guess I can continue about Iraqi soldiers who have been trained and also complain about how they were much better off under Saddam. No, they don't demand to get a raise because work has become more dangerous. All they'd like is to be able and actually support their familier with food and water. That'd be a nice start. But thats also not going to happen, and so you see a lot of these guys eventually turn against the US soldiers and join the resistance.
No matter how much I oppose this invasion and everything coming forth from it I do with to state that I truly feel sorry for all the soldiers who have been send to Iraq based on a lie and see their mission getting hollowed out more and more every day. I sincerely feel sorry for those guys and girls.. From the beginning of day one when bully promised them to be welcomed by flowers and singing crowds and they got sticks and stones if not a few bullets. Next to the Iraqi people themselves I think these soldiers should also be considered to be victims of war.
My suggestion would be to put Saddam back into office. Its a shame he has killed those Kurds, yes. But how many Kurds have been killed at the hands of the Turkish military?
The majority I've dealt with would most definitely go ballistic, and have. Most republicans I know are either completely behind bush and his Islamic ethnocide, or are ashamed to be republicans (because of what bush and the radical Christian right have done to the party) but unwilling to admit to their poor judgment in leaders. Both groups get quite defensive and pissy when anything even remotely related to their party is questioned.
SCENE: A darkened room filled with terrorists plotting to kill and maim. Suddenly, a young terrorist bursts into the room.
Young Terrorist: Ackmed, Ackmed! I just recieved word that Saddam Hussein has been found in a court of law!
Ackmed: By Allah, that can only mean one thing... Everyone, pack your gear and go home, The insurgency is over. I'd like to thank all of you for your time and service to the cause, but democracy has won the day. As you leave, we will be handing out pamphlets on applying for a new job. Also on the way out, please remember to throw away your paper cups.
*as the terrorists leave,the lights in the hideout all turn on*
Ackmed: The electricity is back on! We can go on living now! Thank you George Bush! Thank you!
"Useless organic meatbag" -HK-47
From Cannibal the Musical - Hang the Bastard
Hang the bastard, hang him high.
Hoist his body to the sky.
It's as nice as a day can be.
Won't you come to the hanging with me?
Hang the bastard, hang him well.
Send his sorry soul to hell.
When his neckbone snaps we'll know.
When the cannibal won't be killing anymore.
His face will turn red,
Then purple, then blue.
We'll watch from up here
To get a good view.
And when his eyes bug out we'll know,
It's the end of him
And the end of the show!
So hang the bastard, hang him with cheer.
We'll make some hot dogs
And drink a few beers.
And when his tongue rolls out we'll know,
It's the end of the show
And we all can go home!
But not till we hang the bastard, hang him here.
The most exciting thing this town has seen in years.
When his body stops jerking we'll know,
It's the end of him, it's the end of him,
It's the end of him,
And the end of the show.
Full Lyrics
Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
It is not only death penalty, it is hanging. In my legal tradition it is an inhonourable death penalty, as a high ranking military officer you enjoy the right of suicide or to get executed by gunshot. The judgement here is barbarian.
What's even worse about it is that the US occupation demanded the sentence earlier to the court judgement.
Character is demonstrated by how you thread your worst enemies.
The United States waged war against Iraq but did not let the Iraqi president sign a letter of capitulation. That's disrespect for international law and proper diplomatic proceedings. What will come next? Moral bombing, irregular warfare, killing of presidents, POW which don't get POW-status...
What if Canada invaded the US because of posession of bio and nuclear weapons? Oh, I forgot. Democracies don't start war... Our master democrats don't sign the international landmine treaty. International law? Forget it, abuse it. When a democracy fights a rogue state it should not assimilate. Intrestingly all rogue states call themselves democracies. Some more reflection is needed. The existance of death penalty in 21 century America is an anachronism, a sign of cultural inferiority. No need for its new protectorate to abolish death penalty. Bad pratice in a nation of public killings, many of them allied forces, more of them Iraqi citizens. The judgement will clearly make it more difficult and incite the conflict.
Sorry for my rant. It is just a matter of principle. I oppose death penalty, even when applied to one of the worst political criminals. A criminal with which the US sided in the 80ths...
I don't think your arguments hold any water - first of all, what does the left have to do with anything? Or democracy? I think you're looking to drop a little flamebait here, my friend.
But as for the crux of your statement - while Saddam is a bad man, he was the head of state. He received US support against the Iranians! Additionally, the reason the death penalty is a morally bankrupt stance jumps out in your contradictory statements - "declare once and for all, and for everyone to see that killing is not allowed, which is a good thing" - by killing him, you're confirming the opposite! Your confirming that there ARE circumstances under which killing is ok, which is what Saddam thought when he was in power! The way you prove that "killing is not allowed" is by denouncing his actions, locking him up for all eternity as an example of how civilized people handle things, and preventing him from becoming a martyr for future generations. Those young insurgents-to-be can see an old, pathetic man living with the shame of his crimes - in a place where he can never hurt anyone again. Remember, that you are basically saying is that state-sponsored killing is bad, too - and I completely agree!
So now the question is: Are the 3000 American deaths worth the hanging of Saddam?
I truly believe the world would have been better off with this war criminal still in power. We had him crippled by sanctions and inspections. He posed no real threat.
Dominant Meme
This was to be expected. What else could be the outcome of the trial? What would be the outcome if any other dictator was tried by a victor? Something else?
I just find the timing amusing. Just right for the midterms. A coincidence, of course.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Oh god my karma is going to burn for this; though I am from Australia and we believe it is no ones right to take another's life including those who kill others. We have not had the, barbaric, death sentence for over 30 years and far longer in other states.
So while this sentence was predictable and probably required from a political point of view I object on moral grounds. Instead he should be thrown in jail and never let out.
My 2 cents.
I ate your fish.
...I read this whole article...twice. Then I read all the comments. Not one metion of whether Saddam is a Mac, Windows or Linux user. Dammit /., what gives!
Your last statement "kill this animal just as he killed his thousands of victims, which is a good thing" contradicts your first statement "declare once and for all, and for everyone to see that killing is not allowed, which is a good thing". Make up your mind.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Unless they're using an overclocked Athlon to electrocute him, I don't see how this is a Slashdot topic. I've got half a dozen better-informed blogs for my politics and law, thanks.
I believe that the argument above was that by killing him you risk making him into a martyr (for others who would use his image for their own profit). For example, I could change a few words in your argument and come up with a reasonable statement about why the church elders/high priests/whatever you call them declared that Jesus should be killed:
No it will not RECONVERT the CONVERTED, but it will do 2 things :
-> declare once and for all, and for everyone to see that BREAKING WITH THE CHURCH is not allowed, which is a good thing
-> prevent anyone from helping him (CONVERT even more), which is a good thing
-> prevent him from doing any further damage, which is a good thing
-> bring this criminal's death during a last display of public humiliation, where everybody is reminded that he was a BLASPHEMER, which is a very good thing
-> kill this animal BECAUSE he CONVERTED his thousands of victims, which is a good thing
While it's unfair to compare Jesus to Saddam (ok - extrememely unfair), do you really want to take the chance that in 2000 years there's a religion called Saddam-ianity because you've turned him into a martyr?
"The Republicans were always going to vote Republican and the Democrats were always going to vote Democrat."
Not true. Most people stay home and don't vote, especially on off-year congressional elections. Most of the campaigning that goes on is simply a turn out the vote effort, not an effort to get undecided voters.
So the impact of a Saddam death sentence would have on the election is that it would motivate those who support the war in Iraq to go out an vote. They are probably pretty demoralized right now, and they need a reason to go out and keep republicans in power. In politics, it's all about momentum.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
This is a public, and final statement that nobody gets to kill.
Good on ya! By the way, how is that statement going to be presented, again?
I really didn't expect him to get executed. I thought we were supposed to making Iraq a civilized democracy?
He is appealing though, So it may still not happen, And even if it does it wont be for a number of years.
God Be Gone
Mohammed Azawi Ali, former Baath official - Acquitted of all charges and ordered released from custody immediately.
Who is this guy, and why was he the only defendant in the Al-Dujail trial acquitted of all charges? Googling reveals that he was acquitted for lack of evidence.
So 3 guys get death, 1 gets life in prison, 3 get 15 years in prison, and this guy is immediately released for lack of evidence?
Anyone know more about him?
The United States government has so much control over the Iraqi court system that they managed to set up the verdict and sentencing of Saddam Hussein to happen right before this election, but they couldn't manage to get him tried and sentenced a year or more ago, so we would have had a good solid year of the Baathist loyalists realizing that they really, really lost.
We also arranged the deaths of various people involved with the case (judges, lawyers, et cetera), just to delay it enough to influence these Congressional elections, because we knew all of the scandals the Democrats are pushing would be breaking right about now.
On the other hand, we couldn't manage to get Hussein murdered in prison by a family member of one of the victims of his crimes, because that would be too easy (even though it would play really well with most of the Muslim world).
And the verdict? We obviously fixed it, since nobody in their right mind would believe Saddam Hussein was a murdering, genocidal dictator.
Our next trick: Rovian Mind Control Rays are going to make a whole bunch of people vote Republican, when everyone knows that 99% of the population would vote for the Democrats if they had any freedom of choice at all...
Okay folks, Bush is expecting you all to obediently clap and cheer when Saddam is sentenced.
But what is he being sentenced FOR?
WMDs? Saddam didn't have them.
9-11? Saddam was not involved.
Aiding Al Qaeda? Iraq was a secular government and Al Qaeda favors religious rule. Saddam and Al Qaeda were enemies.
Killing his own people? Evidence suggests Iran gassed the Kurds as an act of war, and in any event, the US Government has killed more Iraqis than Saddam's regime ever did.
So, what is Saddam being sentenced for?
And why should we vote for the government that told so many lies about him to trick us into a war of conquest?
Hi, i'm just a little AC down here so my voice is going to get lost but can we not link to xinhua on /.
Xinhua is the Chinese goverment run ministry of truth. You decide how much you trust that.
It doesn't work that way over there. When he's executed from the current sentence, all of the other cases will leave him out of consideration, since he'll be, you know, dead.
A nice bit of difference between our system and theirs.
"The Republicans were always going to vote Republican and the Democrats were always going to vote Democrat."
Only the ones that are so dogmatic and moronic as to never look at a side objectively.
For instance, I believe in the stated ideals of the Republican party more than I do the Dems. The Dems are these happy huggy hippies that want to give money to everyone and do a lot of drugs...which is much like the libretarians, but they don't have any money to give anyone else, and generally aren't smiling.
If every republican had ideals like McCain or Gingrich, I'd be voting for them this time. Its sad, I am a registered republican, and thats how I voted in the primaries, but when it comes down to who is actually going to further my ideals, its none of the republicans I have a choice of voting for.
Republicans don't always vote Republican, and neither do Democrats. I knew one life long Dem that voted for Bush this last time because he thought he should have the chance to fix his mistakes. Idiot. I believe in the idea, but few of them in power have the nutsacks to go against a moronic president and allowing both domestic and foreign policy to be shaped by the hopes of cheap votes and alienating half the populace. Remember the name REPUBLICAN, as opposed to DEMOCRAT. Most people don't even understand what the names mean. A democracy is there is protect the intent of the majority, a republic is there to ensure the rule of the majority while protecting the right of the minority (i.e., the same reason we call the Republicans the Party of Lincoln, we split the country into two in order to protect the rights of a small minority that was enslaved...well that and a number of other ideal). Bush is only about appeasing those that voted for him, and as few rights as possible for those that didn't.
Orson Scott Card (who is a Democrat) talks about the war in this post.
He has a strategic perspective that Slashdottters might not be familiar with.
Do not poke my eye with your spork;
Do not poke it out, you dork;
Do not poke it with a beer;
Do not poke it with a deer;
Do not poke it with your dick;
That just makes you one mean prick;
Do not poke it, it won't heal;
I'll have to call DrCowboyNeal;
Do not poke it on a train;
Do not poke it on a plane;
The DHS will suspend your right;
For poking my eye out on the flight;
Poke my eye out and you'll be;
Poked in Gitmo for E-TER-NI-T;
By some guy named Bubba who;
Will poke your 3rd eye sore boo-hoo;
So don't poke my eye out Mr. A.C.;
Or the next goat.dot.cx you'll be.
So basically you're saying that the Democrat party's best chance to win the election is to hope that Republican voters don't bother voting? Maybe they should focus on giving Democrat voters compelling reasons to vote in record numbers.
Cheney: (aside) Say... you think I could get Haliburton a contract over there for clean up afterwards.?
The eternal struggle of good vs. evil begins within one's self.
They should send him back to Iraq. he did a much better job of keeping the country running than Bush is doing. Jeez if Bush can't even run Iraq right, what chance does the US have?
Regardless of what he's done? Do you even understand how idiotic this sounds?
The point of the death penalty is that society has its limits on what it will allow anyone to do. Saddam has killed a LARGE amount of people and started numerous wars, used chemical weapons on his own people, setup death/rape squads, terrorized his own country....etc.
Just because he's defenseless NOW we're supposed to just not kill him? Are you on crack cocaine or something? Like the really pure stuff straight out of Columbia not the watered down stuff that they try to sell us here in the US?
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
The American hostages in Iran were relased the day Reagan took office. It was not merely coincidence.
This could be a coincidence. Frankly, I don't think Americans find the fate of Saddam the person to be all the relevent to them.
But these things can be and have been engineered for political reasons.
-Dave
Dude, there's a bit of a flaw in your logic. How exactly will killing Saddam "declare once and for all, and for everyone to see that killing is not allowed"?
I'm not particularly opposed to Saddam's execution (it's hard to argue that he doesn't deserve it - opposition can only be on the grounds of opposing the death penalty in all circumstances), but let's not pretend it's anything but revenge, because that's exactly what it is.
The goals of punishing him and preventing him killing anyone else would be accomplished just as well by sentencing him to life in solitary confinement, and the goal of humiliating him would be accomplished just as well by providing a live online video feed of him living out his sentence. It is only the goal of revenge - of doing unto him exactly what he did unto others - of satiating the victims' desire to see him dead - that requires execution.
Wouldn't it be nice it they could come home now? They can't we'll be staying at those 14 permanent bases and the worlds largest embassy for many years to come. After all we do have to make sure all that oil is used for the maximum profits of our oil companies.
-- QED
Every day products are released, reviewed, hacked, etc.. we still post about that stuff and they are often not surprising. This is something that happened and is worthy a discussion.
I can throw a one hundred thousand pound walrus right through a brick wall.
Yeah, well that'd carry some weight if it were the US conducting the trial. Since it's the Iraqis, you're just blowing smoke around.
Nice try though.
Whoever it is, however obvious his guilt, the death penalty is never right. It's barbarous and irrespectuous of the value of human life - no better in the end than the people thus put to death.
And hanged? that's simply inhumane, you wouldn't want to kill an animal that way for its meat. Actually, we kill animals in more humane ways than that.
I will quote the same thing I always bring up whenever I'm asked why I oppose the death penalty:
"'He deserves death.' 'Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.'"
Killing him will not bring those he killed back to life.
If he explores all forms and substances Straight homeward to their symbol-essences; He shall not die.
A little monster devoured by a much larger monster.
Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
Apparently, Saddam is not a very nice fellow, but if you count the total amount of death and destruction he caused, and compare it to GWB's, Saddam is a bloody angel.
There is (or was) an almost perfect solution to the Iraq Crisis. There is only one man in the world who has already proven that he can keep the peace in Iraq. And now, instead of putting him in charge of Iraq again, GWB's henchmen plan to have him killed.
No, the democrat candidates best hope for getting elected is turning out the *democrat* vote. The republicans are doing a bang-up job of keeping their base at home this election.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
Captain James Kirk, "The Conscience of the King":
"No. But they may rest easier."
[quote]This is a public, and final statement that nobody gets to kill.[/quote]
Unless they are a US backed kangaroo court....
Does Sadam deserve death? sure he does, but is it wise to give him a death sentence? No it is totally stupid, everyone knows the trial was not fair, no trial involving him could be, thus sentencing him to death at this mockery of a trail just add's fuel to the arguments of those who will turn him into a martyr and as a saying goes, the problem with martyr's is you can only kill them once...then you are stuck with them for the rest of your life.
If the US government had any brains they would order...woops mean "appeal to" the iraq government to commute it to life without parole
And then if the US people had any brains they would put Bush in the cell next to him
What do you think the Iraqis believe?
From the news report, they are all firing rounds in the street. Out of joy for Chiites (or Shias, I don't remember how they are called in english) and of anger for Sunies
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Death sentenced because he killed as much civilian more than a decade ago as the americans kills in a day!
But guys remember, we hate you because we are freedom haters
nothing to do with hypocrisy or pure evil...
You just had to get that little zinger in there didn't you? Like it matters.
The United States of America is not beholden to international law.
Want to know why?
Simple. Because no one can make the US do anything it doesn't want to do.
One very basic thing about law that everyone should learn is that it is not enough to simply make a law. You also have to back it up with enforcement. Seriously. You can see this in the Constitution where each law is backed up with methods to enforce it. There's no point at all in creating laws without enforcement save one, international goodwill. Thats it. The only reason we have international laws is to make people "feel better" about global geopolitics. But they're not actually real laws. They're more like "the best of intentions."
I really REALLY wish the people who continue to spout off "but the US broke international law" would learn that for once.
Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
Do I really need to illustrate this ? One very idiotic example is this :
http://www.prisonerlife.com/deathrow/deathrow16.c
But other stuff is also true.
Or maybe my teacher is just smoking something.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Slashdot: News for Kurds, blood that splatters?
Come on, if I want to read all the anti-American posts that this story is going to incite, I'll read about his hanging on a board with people who speak (and not code) in several languages, with relevant degrees and experience. Why are the editors trolling? At least the Arab nuclear arms race article was tech related - not that much tech was discussed - but this?
Wait for all the dupe posts when he is actually executed.
Leben Sie jetzt die Fragen.
considering it could have happen the day after and the day after this day and still be befor US elections, that makes is a 3 on 365 days. I would also admit that it would have looked like a strange coincidence during the whole week before elections, that puts us at 7 days in 365 days or a 2% probability. You decide if this can just happen or not.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
...one crimes-against-humanity-committing dictator down, one to go.
Of course this begs the question, why should an Iraqi court take into account some elections in America?
Do Iraqis know, let alone mention care about them?
Because leaving him alive will cause more deaths.
For example, left alive Saddam will use his lawyer to send messages/orders to his followers to start killing or to free him.
Is this to do with science, technology, or anything like that? I'm all for politics etc but this is WAY OFF TOPIC for Slashdot.
Before I die I wanna see the entire Bush administration shot dead along with everyone helped them to make the world such a shitty place to live (which includes US dems who didn't oppose the war, and my own government).
From the perspective of someone who was "in the region" when this happened, I can honestly say that I wish him the most horrific pain and suffering, equal to what those poor people suffered when they were gassed. That said, I wish all of Iraq the best in getting on with their lives, and hope that they understand the suffering that we as Americans have gone through with them in order to help provide them a more democratic country. While I DO NOT agree with the whole "War" there, I do support out troops and hope things settle down soon so that they may return home and get on with their lives as well.
"My immediate reaction is "WTF? What kind of moron doesn't make things 64-bit safe to begin with?" Linus
OK, so the Iraq situation sucks ass and Bush is a moron for dragging us into it. But why are we reading about this on Slashdot?
Usually, the editors will at least try to find a tech tie-in. Most of the time, the warmed over press releases posted as articles on this site help them do so, but WTF is this?
"FOR DELICIOUS LIFE-GIVING OIL!"
I would rewrite that as delicious PROFIT giving oil.
I say we kill him with all of those WMDs he had!
Yes, send him to Syria, or Iran, or wherever those elusive WMD's are supposed to be hiding...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breakin g_news/breaking_news__international_news/&articlei d=288975
Kuwait is very happy.
Israel is quiet.
Iran supports it, but blames the US for supporting Saddam.
Most of the other countries view it as more US interference. And worse. Bush and Co could not risk the chance that Saddam would go free.
I read terrible news all day long, it's a near truth these days that there is "no news but bad news". However, this news story stands out as something special.
Killing another human being is one of the most basic, primal responses known to man. Someone wrongs you? You kill them. The severity of what they did is irrelevant, it doesn't excuse the fact that you are _killing_ another human being, all in the name of "justice". And then, we feel better of ourselves for doing it, for taking another man's life, superior as a people.
Saddam Hussein was a dispicable human being, responsible for unbelievable acts of savagery, and we ought to be rising above it by not killing him, by not matching his total disregard for the sanctity of human life. We should certainly jail him, maybe for the rest of his life, for his crimes.
What saddens me the most is we have spent all this time and effort, thousands of lives, both military and civillian on both sides of the conflict, all so that we can kill one man, although any number would be irrelevant. And we are the people who are supposedly bringing "civilization", "enlightenment", and the benefits of the highly evolved system of "democracy".
At the end of the day, all that we have sufferered in this conflict, is simply to satisfy one of our most basic, primal instincts from a time before intelligence and rational thought, to kill another human being, because some people can't rise above the need to deal out death to others. And it depresses me.
That is, have a load of his country men, beat him, tie him to a post, and then shoot him to death! THATS how to execute a dictator!!
Jurors are already claiming they votred NOT GUILTY!
When will the madness stop?
Mod parent up!
This is just asinine. I think both the original conjectures - that the scandals were leaked 'just in time' for midterms, and that the Saddam trial was rigged to coincide with elections - are nonsense. Saddam's trial has been winding down for months now, and scandals always pop up right before elections because people are digging deeper.
It's common sense.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I doubt there was any way they'd allow anything but guilty, with the sentence of death? Heck, it's not as if you'd add tons of extra troops and curfews if he's innocent in territories that still recognize him (as well as all over).
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I hadn't considered the issue of election timing, but it is suspicious.
Saddam's sentence is no surprise. The threats of retaliation are no surprise.
Thugs and bullies always think democracy means they'll get their way, and they degenerate into gang violence and terrorism when they don't get it. Few things are more sickening than someone letting a group or party affiliation blind them to the fact that the individual they're trying to defend is a violent degenerate or sociopath.
But before we point too many fingers at Saddam's defenders for the inevitable round of violence and murder, take a look at North America. Our bullies don't degenerate to violence, murder, and terrorism, but they sure don't accept their losses gracefully. They dig up the same old issues over and over, either to distract from real issues, or in a whining child-like attempt to force appeasement of their wants and wishes.
Saddam's conviction should be irrelevent to American politics. Pay very close attention to what the other hand is doing for any politician that even mentions the conviction. It's up to you to decide whether they're using distactics, playing off your hopefully-blind patriotism, or just trying to play an opportunity for air time.
I pray the American people vote with open eyes, ears, and minds this time.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Wrong! The best hope for getting Democrat candidates elected is to bus hordes of illegal immigrants to the polls to vote for them so the illegal immigrants won't fear losing their welfare or to actually have some policy besides gay marriage and "anti bush" anything to compete with.
Saddam Hussein was sentenced to death for retaliating after an assination attempt. It's interesting that one of Bush's motivations for going to war with Iraq was retaliation for an assassination attempt against Bush's father. Over the course of his reign, Saddam Hussein probably killed more innocent Iraqis in retaliation for assassination attempts than Bush but Bush is catching up fast.
Even if Bush's decision to invade Iraq was not personal retaliation, it's interesting the extent to which the Bush administration games the international law system. One minute they claim that international law is completely irrelevant and negotiate bilateral agreements to avoid coming under the juristiction of the International Criminial Court. The next minute they use some obscure technical arguments in international law to justify their behavior - whether it's killing Saddam Hussein or invading Iraq in the first place (convoluted arguments about Saddam Hussein's non-compliance with ceasefire agreements).
Broadly speaking, the reason Saddam Hussein was sentenced to death was for dealing harshly with people who opposed him and his policies. It is interesting that Bush has also dealt harshly with people who opposed him and his policies. Bush has even used many of the same methods as Saddam Hussein - broad retaliation that has resulted in the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent people, torture and degrading treatment (including sexually degrading treatment), and indefinite detentions and broad surveillence techniques to identify "enemies".
Obviously the situations that Saddam and Bush find themselves in are very different. It seems likely history will judge Saddam to have been a much more brutal and oppressive leader than Bush. What is striking though is how harshly the Bush administration condemns Saddam Hussein for using methof like toture when they use those methods themselves.
I thought history has learned us some valuable lessons like "war, HUH, what is it good for" end "thou shalt not kill". But not.
I am against death penalty. It's the easy way out. Death is The End, not a punishment.
Anyway. In name of democracy, let's move on to the next mass-murderer.
Privacy is terrorism.
I'm a little surprised at the effort that the international community put behind this uh 'trial', charging him with the death of 180+ individuals...what about the countless innocent civilians that past U.S. presidents (and the present) have caused the death of?
Why are they not on trial?
Soon comments like these will be 'treason'.
America is festering, and I think it's time to start cutting the cancer and hypocrisy out on the 7th my fellow countrymen.
This is not an "October Surprise"; as some have said the verdict was a forgone conclusion.
Once again, our government does the wash, rinse, repeat method of screwing other countries:
Wash our hands of the previous "US friendly" nut job,
Rinse away the human rights of the people in said country,
Repeat the same mistake by installing another nut job by force using the CIA and/or US military.
Saddam Hussein is not the only one to blame for what happened to the 148 Iraqis; American hands are dirty as well.
What we need is the equivelent of the "Prime Directive" in our foreign policy.
Our government is bread and circuses, my friends. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
Not just americans. The rest of us can also observe the remarkable coincidence.
Because there is a great deal of contention that the court is really the puppet of the U.S. If that were the case, the timing is controlled by the puppet master.
-just sayin'
Iran at that same time.. "Death to the Great Satan America!!!" "We want to export the Islamic Revolution and expand the caliphate!" "Down with The West, The Soviets are our friends!" and "Ha ha!! Our Islamic Students have stormed your American Embassy and will execute and hold them hostage! And ha ha look how your Delta Force has died in the Desert!!! Ha Ha Ha" "And yet you still pay Top Dollar for our OIL!!!.. Ha ha ha!!"
That the left is opposed to democracy. The democratically elected government introduced the death penalty, and now it should not be carried out ...
Hint: You don't have to be oposed to democracy to disaprove a decission reached by the mayority. Quite the opposite, in fact. Proclaiming what you think is right and should be done is one of the cornerstones of democracy
Bush is much worse than Saddam Hussein. He should be sentenced to death too
Exactly right.
At the very least, they should lock him in a cell, shacked from head to toe, with a backward football helmet/iron mask/whatever locked upon his skull and weld the door shut. I don't know about executing him, scince that would make him a martyr. Also, the timing sure seems convenient with the mid-term elections in a couple days, dosen't it?
You know somebody is going to videotape it...
*sigh*
I guess I know why I'm against the death penalty.
The price is always right if someone else is paying.
Operation Iraq Freedom costs more than 650.000 civillian lives. ( yes yes, you sit in your home in US and you know what happening in Iraq, sure your news cooperations are brilliant examples of fairness)
And there was no evidence about Chemical Weapons or connections between Iraq and Al-Queda.
Sure Saddam was bad leader and his regime was not great example of democracy. And even Saddam can't kill that much civillian.
So is your Uber Law system open any trial against George W.Bush. Because of killing innoncent civillians ? (Suprise suprise, some of muslims are not Terrorists).
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
...along with almost 3000 US soldiers, and 50,000 Iraqis, whose sentences have already been carried out.
but instead it was OJ. What a travesty. Justice isn't served just by getting to the right outcome. It's served by proving that the outcome you reach is right.
Death and danger are my various breads and various butters.
I'm not trying to troll but my God says that the death penalty isn't for anyone.
Matthew 5:44 - "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"
Killing Saddam will not help anything, it will only anger those who will see him as a martyr.
This could quite possibly be the biggest running list of whining pussies I have seen in a while on Slashdot. Cry me a fucking river that it's a few days before midterm elections and there's a good chance he's going to die for his terrible war crimes in the near future. Why don't you go protest outside about and try and break him free if you love him so much and feel the whole election was a big sham that's going to bring death, mayhem, and a loss of credibility to our soldiers and Iraq. What are you basing your thoughts on? What leads you to believe there's going to be a huge surge in violence (I'm guessing you watched CNN)?
I think all the terrorists reading your sympathetic bullshit will cause a rise in terrorist activity. You losers make me sick. Go ahead and mod this down, sounds like something a bunch of wusses would do. I am sure two of my Kurdish friends from high school who lost family members to Saddam and fled to the U.S. to escape him would also like to send you a big fuck you. Thanks for the same set of weak ass arguments that have been posted for the last 10 years though, it's good to see recycled ideas and comments.
Where will we get the herd of wild pigs to carry out the sentence?
668: Neighbour of the Beast
From the post -- "He is to be hanged inside 30 days from now. Saddam Hussein has been given 10 days to appeal against the decision." This is not true. The sentence is automatically appealed to an appeals panel with unlimited time to debate the appeal. If they uphold the appeal, then Saddam's death sentence will be carried out within 30 days of that ruling. Source: MSNBC AP News
Saddam wasn't tried in an American or even International court. He was tried by an Iraqi court. I wouldn't count on anything being automatic.
I don't read AC A human right
As an Iraqi , I am happy for that judgment , although I know it is a show trial...
Do you seriously think that the American government has no influence on the Iraqi government?
It is, after all, the force that installed them there, and still has quite a few troops in the area.
The Hindu has some more data from the Lancet study:
Your President has sent almost 3000 of your citizens to get blown up to pieces and thousands more are now cripples. A 100 Iraqis are killed every day as a result of your military breaking the delicate power balance in Iraq without as much as a realistic post war plan. American reckless abuse of power has started a new nuclear race. And this is why you need the second super power, so they keep each other in check.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Shouldn't you be off designing hideous websites instead of trolling Slashdot, pretending that random pictures you find on the internet are those of dead world leaders?
Oh hey, here's a young Joseph Stalin enjoying his sippy cup. His mother and father loved him dearly.
"I say we kill him with all of those WMDs he had! " yes that would be a long long long long long.... looooooooong painless death. :)
Using generalizations the way you do, talking about "the people in Baghdad", tells me all I need to know about your level of understanding
The verdict was read. So far (as of my writing): happy people in the street (um, well, some burning Saddam pictures, but they seem to be smiling while doing it), and not the usual drama of a bicycle-bomb-in-the-market type of insurgent craziness. It is reasonable to say "the people in Baghdad" in the sense that more of them were doing something celebratory than violent, no matter how much that might have given some media outlets a wet dream.
And it's spelled "Karl" Rove
Ah hah! His evil operatives just want you to think so.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Not one metion of whether Saddam is a Mac, Windows or Linux user. Dammit /., what gives!
On the one hand, America used Saddam all the time years ago but is rightfully ashamed of that history now, which is awfully similar to how I feel about Windows, so it's tempting to say Saddam's a Windows user.
But then again, we know that Saddam likes palaces that use paper-thin marble facades and gold plating to hide cheap material underneath. If that doesn't scream "pre-OS X Mac user", I don't know what does - and Saddam's certainly unpopular enough to be a modern Mac user too.
In the wake of this trial, though, I think that what stands out most about Saddam is that he spent decades being a sadistic bastard to everyone but his inner circle; then after being beaten down in the early 90s he made an attempt to put on a cooperative, friendly face in recent years, a transparent attempt which nobody believed. That's the clear mark of a Unix man.
I find it hard to believe that the judge who was removed for being sympathetic to Saddam was not done so at the behest/pressure of the US government.
Within a month of Saddam's execution, U.S. troops (and the soldiers of other nations) should leave Iraq. The U.S. can declare victory and state that the Iraqi people now control their own destiny.
There is still a very good possibility that a civil war will break out in Iraq after the Coalition leaves. But I do think that there is a possibility that a peace agreement can be worked out. The Shia Arabs and Kurds have their pound of flesh with execution of Saddam meaning that their leaders can make compromises with former government officials. The Sunni Arabs no longer have any hope of re-installing Saddam as the leader of Iraq and they will no longer have foreign troops on Iraqi soil. Does anyone really think that having American troops stay longer in Iraq will increase the chance of peace? And if a civil war breaks out, was there any way to prevent it?
After the Coalition troops leave, no American/British citizens, including journalists, aid workers or diplomats, should be allowed in Iraq for five years. There are two reasons for this. First, they will require an enormous amount of security to protect them. Second, it is necessary for the Iraqi government to appear independent of American/British influence. I don't think that either that either government should have an embassy on Iraqi soil for at least five years.
I don't want a terrorist victory in Iraq. If the terrorists win in Iraq, there will only be more bombings in the West. If the Americans leave now, they can say that they have achieved all of goals. They can say that the tyrant received a fair trial and fair execution. They can also say that they couldn't leave until they were sure that Saddam couldn't return to power.
Does anyone want the U.S. and other foreign troops to stay in Iraq?
This execution does not seem the best solution in my oppinion. I guess there is a reason for their hurry to execute him. Why not condamn him to lifetime prison. Now we'll never know the truth. Don't get me wrong I'm not defending Sadam. I'm sure he deserves a lot of years behind bars(I'm against his execution though). It's just that I don't trust the american government or any other international organism delegated to judge Sadam. There had to be a lot of pressure on the jurry. On the other hand where are all the chemical weapons? I bet they forgot to search for them after they've found petrol.
Not that I support the death penalty, but the old testament contradicts...
Genesis 9:6: Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
At least give him the chair or lethal injection or something.
The US Government is saying that they had nothing to do with the timing of the verdict. You can feel free to doubt that they have nothing to do with it, but criticizing the US government for not using power that they don't admit to having in order to remove an appearance of impropriety they say they haven't created, seems a little pointless.
Frankly, there's good reason to believe that the US *didn't* have any control over the announcement. The Shiites really hate Saddam, and its clear that the death penalty is a feather in the cap for the current Shiite-Kurd government. They certainly will want to announce it as soon as possible as a victory for their people. I don't think that Karl Rove or the Bush foreign advisers would bother to waste the effort to move up something as non-eventful as Saddam getting the sentence everyone expected anyway. Capturing Saddam was the only event Americans cared about.
So in other words we can kill the man who killed, and then be killed by someone else, and then kill that guy....
who needs a giant flood to wipe out humanity.
"You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
The Gospel according to lolcat
But, but, opting to delay until after the elections would be wrong! The people NEED this news NOW!
I mean, opting to delay so it wouldn't affect the elections would be like The IRS delaying any tax actions until after the elections or The department of justice delaying the hearing of a corrupt lobbiest with ties all the way up to Rove, Cheney and Bush until after the elections.
And that would just be WRONG WRONG WRONG! Clearly this news, that coincidently helps the Republicans case on the war of terror... (er... sort of) NEEDED to be out before an election that even the Republicans are now expecting to lose. And that news that would seriously harm the public's perceptions of Republicans? Clearly, that needs to wait until AFTER the election.
Your Liberal media at work, folks! (Please ignore the hard-line Republican parent companies behind the curtain.)
I don't appreciate being lumped into one solid mass of negative opinion. I'm a liberal. I agree that Saddam should be executed, but also think that having the verdict come out now causes the entire trial to lose credibility. Not to mention that this WILL make him a martyr, and that's solely a result of the way that the Iraqi war has been botched beyond recognition. Also, while Saddam is being executed for crimes committed over a decade ago, there's a genocide going on in Sudan at this very moment. Pakistan is (or was for a long time) harboring the number one threat to our security, Osama Bin Laden. And that's not even mentioning the thousands of innocent Iraqis that have died as a result of this war, far more than Saddam himself murdered. So to say that this sends a message that killing innocent people will get you executed is sadly mistaken. What this actually does is tell other murderous dictatorships that if they don't have weapons of mass destruction to defend themselves, they stand a good chance of being invaded, so what difference does it make whether they cooperate with the UN or USA or not?
FTFA:He is to be hanged inside 30 days from now
This is not true. The case will now be reviewed by the court of appeals. Though this will only stall his execution a few more month and I doubt the US have chosen any judges who would actually check the case for inconsistencies.
If negative or positive publicity can be timed it will. What is the big surprise? Now for the real shocker, it's okay if they did. It's called politics.
The revelations about Ted Haggart appear to be timed to the elections as well. Again, not a surprise, business as usual.
Very few people need convincing that "all Democrats are soft on terror" or "all Republicans care about are big business." I think the impact of this is negligible.
Mike
Do you think there are actually Iraqis out there who doubt that killing innocent people is morally wrong and need a reminder?
e .php for some live reaction from Iraq to the verdict.
Where have you been for the last few years? The secret phrase for the day is "suicide bomber" (or rather "'mass-murdering fuck-head' who is willing to kill himself in the process as long as it increases the body count"). To be fair, many (but not all) of the suicide bombers nowadays are believed to have been foreign Al Qaeda imports, but they're still getting logistical support from certain segments of the Iraqi community.
As for "kill this animal just as he killed his thousands of victims", that sounds exactly like revenge to me. Please, read what you're saying and think of the real consequences when Iraqis see that even their great American liberators punish people through barbarism.
"Barbarism" is putting people in shedding machines, slowly and feet first. That's what Saddam and his sons did when they didn't like people (or when soccer players lost). Or perhaps we should make him stand in a room with the floor covered in acid (like he did to others). Those would be "revenge" and "an eye for an eye". But the 'just' here is poetic, not prepositional. Hanging is merciful; and that IN ITSELF is an important development in this part of the world. This IS the rule of law and not revenge.
Incidentally, check out http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/11/the_day_of_justic
Finally, what the heck does the left have to do with the comments above? Just because they disagree with the Republican government they must be liberals?
No, but the US "left" shares two traits with some glaringly obvious trends in this thread's posts:
1) Moral Relativism - "I think the US is just as bad; if Saddam's being executed, let's kill Bush next!" Examples of this are all over the place... If you really think the US was/is as bad as Saddam's Iraq, please do us all a favor and move to Europe where in a few years' time you'll see what the future of this line of argument is.
2) Disdain for the Democracy/The Public decision - "The Death Penalty is bad, regardless of the prevailing moral viewpoint or what the people of Iraq (legitimately) decide." Note, we're not talking about hanging someone for being gay, Chinese imprisonment of bloggers, shooting someone trying to leave the country, or any of the more widely accepted "legitimate" rights and freedoms that have been curtailed by the corrupt few in a relatively undemocratic society. If the populace legitimately chooses to enforce capital punishment for the most heinous crimes, so be it. The elite don't rule the country any more. (Side note: See also the Left's fascination with Roe v. Wade. The People should be able to decide these things, rather than things being mandated by fiat by judges at the federal level. You can be pro-choice and still feel that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided.)
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
That's cherry picking.
In the scriptures, there is a difference between a government meting out justice based on deliberation and an individual doing the same thing, because generally the individual is generally out for vengeance. It is because of the same practice of cherry-picking that the law was interpreted to allow for individuals exacting vengeance in the first place. Careful reading of the original text containing the "eye for an eye" wording would show this, I think pretty clearly.
Jesus wasn't talking about Rome, Herod or the local authorities. He wasn't talking to them either. Not that the governments at the time were nice, but there are scriptures that justice must be done, but that should only be done by people that have the proper authority to do so and the wisdom to know what is best.
And yes, those scriptures do allow for death as a penalty for murder. The old law isn't automatically abolished just because of Jesus, he made his life of interpreting and reaffirming a lot the Torah to show how individuals should live.
why would Iraqis care about our midterm election...?
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity
To be sitting on the fourth largest oil reserve in the world.
... electric chair will now throe Saddam Hussein at YOU ...
[slinks away giggling nervously at lame oblig comment attempt]
When I was there I got to live in one of his palaces for a bit. The marble was high quality and of appropriate thickness (3/4 inch or more, in most cases). The problem was that it was shipped and assembled incompetently.
Instead of keeping the marble slabs organized so that the grain matches on the edges when assembled, the workers just grabbed whatever piece was lying close at hand; the effect looked a little like plywood paneling. You're dead on, though, about the cheap construction underneath; I found a place where an empty cigarette packet had been mortared into the wall behind the marble (exposed when shaken loose by the bombing). They didn't use welders, either, they just held a couple of wires close together that were connected (unbreakered) to the generator. An OSHA inspector would go into full-body convulsions looking at the work site.
Back to the analogy, though, it was an expensively purchased and poorly assembled copy of other palaces. That puts Saddam firmly in the Windows 95 camp =) Rumors on base suggested that the computers we captured were, true to form, unpatched *English language* copies of Win 95, with no encryption or passwords in use anywhere.
Travel the Galaxy! Meet fascinating life forms...
hmm, maybe you're not familiar with the subject of American politics? the so-called independent voters decide every election. Yes, each party has a base, and that base is unaffected by just about anything that happens. But those bases are fairly evenly matched (which is why the house, senate, and white house are frequently split between parties). and that leaves the decision to the fickle independents, no? and these decisions aren't made on party platforms (otherwise, they would belong to the party base); they are made on the news of the day, the water cooler-discussions, the charisma and personality of the candidates. the most important things in determining this election will be the framing of the Iraq situation (is it successful? was it a mistake?), abramhoff fallout, pedophiles in congress, and kerry's dumbass joke. sad? yes. but true. So any republican strategist who didn't at least consider the benefits of a guilty verdict shortly before the election should be fired. now, whether or not the white house actually has enough sway in the iraqi judicial system is anybody's guess..
Sure, but Iraq isn't just any foreign country, now is it? It's a country that 125,000 American soldiers are currently occupying, and whose government's continued existence depends largely on the continued presence of those soldiers.
So yes, I would say that the US government might be able to exercise a certain amount of influence over the current Iraqi government's legal system.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Yeah, that's it, there's a political plot under every bush. I suppose Saddam isn't guilty either. I think we all knew what the verdict would be. The guy is practically the criminal equivalent of a Nazi. No one was surprised at the result of the Nuremburg trials either.
Do we need to suspend all government and public actions 1 month before election, just to prevent the appearance of an "OCTOBER SURPISE"? Everything is a October surprise. When some no name preacher acts like an idiot or a windsurfing senator says something stupid the media decends into a orgy of stupidity. I think the problem isn't with politicians but rating hungry journalists.
I'm more disturbed at the reports of Iraqis protesting the verdict about Saddam. Either the reports are severely biased -- 48 HOURS BEFORE AN ELECTION, or some of the Iraqis are seriously beyond the realm of help. Even if the man is from your hometown/tribe, how could they view him as a hero.
S _ _ _ _ M H _ S S _ _ _
It isn't so far off if you consider natural gas to be related to oil in some manner. Natural gas is used to make fertilizer. Fertilizer to make food. Food to sustain life.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
He won't be - his half brother and his chief judge have both been sentenced to death, and several others have been given prison sentences.
That would still create the same appearance of improprietary, because it would mean they are delaying the verdict until just after the elections.
The delay would possibly mean that bad news didn't come in until after the incumbent party was safe from the news, and it would be obvious that the delay was due to the elections.
I for one am glad to have the knowledge of the verdict before elections. Having information and being able to act on it is not a bad thing. As for false image of propriety.. what purpose would that serve?
You would have the politicians stage everything so bad news for the incumbents always comes in before the elections, and good news for the incumbents always comes in after the elections??
Who thought the trial was going to be anything other than a formality to get the license to kill, with a superficial appearance of 'fair play', anyways?
"His lawyer has warned to a bloodbath if the sentence is carried out."
Healthy, very healthy indeed.
Personally I'd like to see the bastard hung ASAP. IMO there just comes a point where you forfeit your rights as a human. Saddam is way past that point.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-11/05 /02.shtml
now my words:
Saddam!, Saddam, you are my man!
A dictator? Yes, a mooron, Yeah!
You screwed up big in the past,
you thought your power would forever last...
But you failed, you and your cast!
How dare you anger the WEST???
In this world, Saddam- it is okay
to be a tyrant and get your way,
get the US support, and be an ally,
like Egypt, Jordan, and even Saudi,
but... you've gotta submit to Mrs Rice,
to G Bush, Mr. Blair, and to Israel you must be nice!
and if you're a puppy,
we'll even call your tyranny, a democracy!
Saddam, you now see the irony,
the jokes called 'International laws'and fake 'democracy',
democracy that rejects Palestinian's choice,
that gives no regards to Palestinian cries, to Palestinian's voice,
and laws that do not apply to the powerful,
that overlook the horror with which the allies' prisons are full...
Saddam, my friend, I never liked you,
but today, I feel with you...
Today I sympathize with you...
And I just wish you,
the best END!
Sincerely,
Your Hater
or perhaps the iraqi court taht cocnvicted and sentenced sadaam really doesnt care one way or the other how close their announcement is to our elections
Isn't that the other way around? I mean, food to make 'natural' gas?
No, the other NAMBLA.
Do Iraqis involved in politics care about American politics?
Do you seriously have to ask? Our military, under the direction of Bush, is the only thing keeping those people in power. They have a strong, personal interest in seeing republicans maintain control of our government, because a Democratic victory will likely mean pulling our troops before their power positions are strongly enough established to protect them from civil war.
So yes, the iraqis who matter both know and care about the events unfolding in our political system.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
It's about time some of the perpetrators of 911 have been tried and convicted.. Saddam got his, now we will get the others that attacked our nation!
Because a significant change in our congress could cause our troops to be withdrawn.
The president doesn't really have unlimited power to use our military at his pleasure unless congress backs him on it.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/05/hussein. next/
...
"The death sentences handed down Sunday against former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and two of his co-defendants triggers an automatic appeal to the Iraqi Criminal Tribunal.
"There is no time limit for the appeals court to make its decision, but a court official told The Associated Press that the process would likely take three or four weeks after formal paperwork is submitted."
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
god damn it vlad you sick piece of fuck!!! you are going to fucking spit teeth
Maybe US citizens see Bush as a hero or a great president, but many in this world are expecting to see a trial (and death sentence, possibly) for Bush.
Troops under his command have killed dozens of thousands of civilians.
Of course, that trial will never happen, and US will keep on wondering "Why are people so upset about us?"
Not mocking US or anything, just pointing out that while some people see Bush as a hero, many others see him as a war criminal (of worst kind).
Will Sadam be executed or not - I couldn't care less, he's not a threat anymore, he has been 'neutralized'. Bush is still a threat.
Yes! We need to get out of Iraq now! We need to turn everything over to the Iraqis! Saddam needs to be tried by his own people, not a US military tribunal! And said Iraqis need to confirm their actions on any future matters with us so we can decide if it's ok for them to do it now or wait until later! Yeah!
Seriously, we need the International Criminal Court. I can think of a lot of people who would deserve hanging for causing the deaths of 150 people, if not outright deliberately, at least out of criminal negligence. Let's start with Sharon and Bush.
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
How does the announcement of Saddam's verdict give a boost to Republicans? Most people figured that it was a foregone conclusion (whether by conspiracy or simple weight of facts is up to the individual) that he would be found guilty, and the only real question was how much of a chance there would be of him getting life in prison instead of the death penalty.
Minds are already made up over Iraq; Saddam's verdict will not muster or change enough votes (if any at all) to sway a single election.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
If Iraq took over the US, George Bush would be up on all sorts of war crimes charges. The terrible assault on Fallujah would be one of them. Most houses were badly damaged or destroyed and civilian casualties showed evidence of the use of Phosphorus weapons.
Saddam Hussein killed hundreds of Shia because of an attempt on his life, and US Forces destroyed Fallujah because some "Contractors" (Mercenaries working for Blackwater USA) were killed there.
Both were effectively revenge attacks and collective punishment is explicitly illegal under Article 33 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions. The Shock and Awe campaign that started the war would no doubt also be brought into question.
Other than the verdict and the sentence, you mean. Lemme be one of many zillions to ask, 'Who didn't see this coming?'
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Will it heal the Iraqi people? Will it slow down the violence? Will it do anything other than make people feel warm and fuzzy in an eye-for-an-eye sort of way?
He's a horrible man and doesn't deserve the life he has, but really - what's the point? How does killing this man improve the world in which we live?
Last post!
By this argument, would you say that the Nuremberg Trials weren't justice since they were not held in The Hague? That is not the real issue here. The bottom line is that Hussein committed crimes punishable by death, so no matter where he was tried, the outcome would most likely have been the same. Also, it's hard for me to feel bad for a man who idolizes Stalin and Hitler - men who very likely provided him with examples of how he should persecute (and subsequently execute) the Kurds. (He even had an entire library dedicated to works on Stalin).
There are no uninteresting things. There are only uninterested people.
When will we put George W. Bush on trial for genocide? Afterall, his little pet war has resulted in over a hundred thousand civilian casualties. Saddam only wished he could pull in those kinds of numbers.
His lawyer has warned to a bloodbath if the sentence is carried out.
Jabber, jabber, jabber. Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah! Right before we deposed him! Saddam made a huge stink about using his WMDs on us. He was so convincing in his deceptions that *everyone* in the world thought he was going to use them. Then it turned out Saddam was lying to us. He had only a handful of inoperative WMDs, and troops unwilling to stick around long enough to rattle them.
His lawyer's warning is no different. We won't see a bloodbath. We may see some scattered rioting, but that will be it.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
Ok, here goes... Back in 1979 Iran, a former Windows user, finally got too pissed off about all the bugs and over night converted to using Apple Macintoshs. Microsoft saw what happened and didn't like it at all, after all back in 1953 they managed to neutralize Iran's movement towards Linux through an enormous and rather expensive FUD campaign, in order to install their Windows OS on Iran's computers (along with all its features and bugs).
Also, in 1979 Saddam became president of Iraq, he didn't like Apple Macs at all, so he too saw the Iran's Mac Revolution as a problem. MS realized this and provided Saddam with all sorts of developer tools like ASP.Net and Visual Studio so he could build his own programs and spread the use of Microsoft products throughout the Middle East. And programs he wrote. Ugly programs with bad Error handling and buffer overflows.. Yet, he used them and MS didn't really care, since it was made using their products. Microsoft also saw a big threat in the USSR where everyone ran Linux (I think it was Debian), so MS was pretty happy with Saddam back then.
In 1980 Saddam believed he had written enough programs to convince Iran that Macs are far inferiour so he started a war, obviously with the backing of the software giant Microsoft. The problem was that the Mac fanboys in Iran weren't sitting on their laurels either and wrote software in Mac OS that was just as effective as Saddam's. After eights long years of dire struggle Saddam abandoned his pursuit to convince the Iranians to revert to MS Windows.
This whole thing cost him lots and lots of money; MS products aren't cheap (even when they're on discount) and neither are MS programmers. So suddenly he saw his power threatened - what if he ran out of money to buy the updates? Thus, he came up with a plan: "We fought 8 hard years against the Mac fanboys of Iran to protect you guys from the horrors of converting to Apple Macintoshs" he said addressing the other countries in the Middle East, and pointed out that especially Kuwait profited from the war while contributing nothing, except for lending money to Iraq. "You Kuwaitis would all be Mac users now! I think it would be fair if you dropped the $30 billion we owe you, so we can rebuild over here." Kuwait refused and Saddam saw no other way than to take over Kuwait.
Now this went too far for MS who saw a very lucrative and loyal customer in Kuwait so they went in personally with their MCSE certified programmers and fought back Saddam's guys - way back to Baghdad. There they stopped and, I guess for old times sake, let him continue be president though from now on with only 640KB of RAM per PC and under constant surveillance.
They installed Webcams all over Iraq. Obviously Saddam didn't like that one bit and started throwing stones at the cams while cheering when he knocked one down. He did that every once in a while, when he got bored running programs with such a limited amount of RAM. Everybody was playing Doom while he had to resort to Nibbles.
Fast forward to today: now we have all sorts of people fighting each other in Iraq. There are hordes of Mac fanboys running around on the streets causing havoc and violently opposing anyone they see as Micro
And when you gaze long enough into the code, the code will also gaze into you.
Interestingly enough, so were the founding fathers of America. They specifically implemented the Bill of Rights to avoid the dangers of "mob rule". The idea was that public passions can lead to abuses, so there should be some things that should remain illegal even if a majority of the people favor them. Banning freedom of speech is one such abuse; curbing the right to bear arms is another.
So, if you consider capital punishment a human rights abuse (as some people do), then opposing it despite its popularity is a perfectly logical position to take. You can disagree with the position if you like, but holding doesn't make one "opposed to democracy".
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
President GHW Bush: Saddam wants Kuwait, and since he was a useful proxy against Iran I'll give him tacit permission to take it. Oh fuck, he's killing people live on CNN! About face!
0 1 - just my two bits
2000: Democrats/Gore position on anything, "Hey, I'm a Democrat, ya know, working families, Clinton was good, so why not?"
:) But just a year after Sept 11, Democrats weren't expected to win a lot.
Republicans/Bush: Taxes, Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc - you know where they stand.
2002: I don't remember much of that one
2004: Democrats/Kerry position, "Hey, we hate Bush. Kerry is not Bush. Vote for us."
Bush: You still know where he stands on issues, expect the same.
2006: Democrats position, "We still hate Bush. War is bad, mm'k? So vote for us."
There are never any real issues mentioned on the Democrats side. This "We aren't Republicans" campaign hasn't been working. In 1994, Newt at least had a list of things they'd do if they took over Congress.
First of all, why would any Iraqi know that there are congressional elections taking place in the U.S. Secondly, the person who outed the minister for buying meth (and allegedly, gay sex) SAID he was doing it to influence the elections. Most far-fetched of all, what kind of individual is going to switch which congressman he is going to vote for because of a predictable anouncement of a predictable verdict?
Hang the guy and yet he did a better job of keeping the terrorists out than the US is. They need to put him back in power, there's no way the US can hold it. Iraq has fallen apart since the Americans went in and like Vietnam I'm sure they'll just pull out like every other place and leave it in a mess for someone else to clean up. The one you should hang is Bush. ;)
All of this of course, assumes that all days are equally likely. If the verdict is ready now, what are the odds it will be announced on August 12th 2007? Well, very unlikely. The trial has been prescheduled. Without the delays this would have been read in October.
If the court had read it the day after Election Day, there would have been people saying, "AHA! Bush is trying to make people forget about Iraq"
In other words, there is a permanent part of the electorate that thinks everything is an elaborate ruse to stay in power. When voter turn out is low, few people will be swayed by this.
--Joey
Just 2 days before a dicey US election. No coincidence.
It's all distraction and manipulation. Expect more today and tomorrow.
Just pick a news source and see how many headlines they give to this.
Instead of the unpopular war, crumbling world support, failed foriegn policies, record deficits, burning holes in the constitution, etc. Oh... look, a circus!
I had a long rebuttal typed up addressing your careless use of rhetorical devices, but decided against it about halfway through and deleted it. Frankly, posts such as yours are not insightful, interesting, funny, or informative. They're just semantic and boring.
How the fuck is it possible, in your mind, that non-citizens are allowed to vote? I hear people complaining that they don't want to have compulsory ID-checks at polling station, but if no one checks for ID, how do they know the person is a citizen that has a right to vote? Is it really possible for non-citizens (whether legal or illegal in the country) to just go to a polling station and vote for somebody? If that's really so, then I have an idea... start a tourism industry where people from all over the world travel with legal papers into the US a few days before the election, and let them vote. Because I'm sure a lot of people all over the world wish they could do something about the fucked up regime running the USA at the moment. (Too bad nobody has the firepower to do something "pre-emptive").
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
That presupposes that the Iraqi judges know that the U.S. is having congressional elections, which I don't know why they would. It's not like presidential election, in that the rest of the world doesn't really care about it.
Secondly, and more importantly, Iraqi judges should, and do, care about the credibility of their courts amongst Iraqis, not amongst Americans. Again I doubt most Iraqis know or care that there is about to be a vote in the U.S. It would only undermine the credibility of the Iraqi courts if they did things like changing the timing of thier actions because of U.S. elections.
After he dies, Saddam will live in hell with his gay lover, Satan.
But after a couple seasons, Satan will kick him into heaven out for repeatedly killing Satan's new gay lover, Chris.
Up in heaven, Saddam will make chemical weapons disguised in a milk plant.
Finally, Saddam will be found alive again in Canada impersonating the Wizard of Oz.
FWIW, Democrats are equally pissy. My mother (a registered Dem) sent out the photo of the troops holding the banner saying "HALP US JON CARRY WE R STUK N IRAK" and she received a note from a woman that shows how devoid of humor she is.
--Joey
His lawyer has warned to a bloodbath if the sentence is carried out."
Well I guess the Iraqis must enjoy peace and quiet while it lasts..
The really deep question is, if we're made in God's image, then who, in the end, is going to kill God? One of the other Gods?
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
You seem to forget that illegal immigrants have more rights than people with legal papers! You want to be a citizen? Then please jump border because every ten years we grant amnesty! Not only do you get to live here and get free medical, but your children that are born here are automatically citizens, the rest of you "law-abiding" people get in the back of the line!
People like to complain that the only reason they are here is because they are the only ones that will do the work for so low. Go to the ghettos in and around our cities and see who refuses to do the work. It's the welfare folks. They make more money doing nothing more than having children than they would picking grapes. Cut welfare and then Americans will have to work again.
Um, yeah, prayer, of all things, isn't going to help with that.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
On some level I do feel a bit sorry for him as he is a human being and is "suffering", but come on. I don't really like the death penalty, but there are some people for whom I just cannot argue against it. Saddam Hussein is one of those people. That being said, I do think this is going to make things worse in the immediate future and will probably have long lasting effects.
There are 130,000 US troops, plus a large contingent of private support workers, and a relative handful of bureaucrats.
I'd expect many of them to be Republicans. (although I don't think this is quite what you meant)
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
They must...
kill -9 saddam
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
My blog
And of course all of these even assumes that the Iraqi court and Iraqi people even give a shit about the U.S. elections!
At what point did the courts and civilians of any particular country suddenly become required to take the relatively insignificant matters of a foreign body into consideration for what happens within their own country?
But, hey, don't let that stop you from adding even more mud to what been getting thrown around with these elections.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
Thanks. That commentary was great!
Let's not forget we have Osama on the loose some where in the border of Afghan/Pakistan border. Where the military ditactor who overthrew the democratically elected leader Pakistan has recently decided not look for Osama in Waziristan and appease those tribals in that region. Their former head of the nuclear program provided N. Korea, Iran and Libya with nuclear weapons technology and Pakistan won't allow the CIA to directly to interrogate him. The Taliban is seeing a resurgence in the area and are camping in the border regions of Pakistan, where their are plenty of madrassas in the area. With allies like this who needs enemies?
WMDs running loose, support for the Taliban and loose ties to Al-Qaeda ? Look no further than the strong man of Pakistan and his chief scientist AQ Khan. History has shown supporting dictators in the past have a long term negative result. Marcos - Phillipines, Noriega - Panama, Pinochet - Chile,
That's just a coincidence, right?
:) As soon as I saw this post, thats immediately what I thought - the more important thing however, is how much, and where the news will be talking about this, and how their talk cooincides with slander ads.... I really wouldn't know since I don't watch TV....
Can you please think that way... please? It will make herding the sheep so much easier!!
Either way, its good to remember that these people we are trying to liberate still have no problem hanging a person. Why waste a needle and save some human suffering? And don't give me any of that eye for an eye crap - what is done is done and two wrongs never makes a right. ps - screw math
"a Democratic victory will likely mean pulling our troops" I disagree. Even if the Democrats were to automagically win back control of both houses of congress and the presidency, the American troops in Iraq wouldn't be going anywhere. We are still in Germany and Korea for no good reason right? We are stuck in Iraq too. We will stay there until they just get used to us, the violence calms down, and we make an agreement with that government to build a permanent base in country. Then we'll stay there for the next 50+ years. Just like in Germany and Korea. That way, we'd have a much better jumping off point in case something happens with Iran or another one of those big bad middle eastern countries.
Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
Kinda makes you wonder if Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld will one day be tried and sentenced to death, too. After all, they've killed 100x the people Saddam did.
for even more killings and even more injustices and other crimes?
if one is going down then ALL should go down. Media in the USA is a joke.
good bye.
What a creative interpetation of the word "nobody" you have :)
FRA: STFU GTFO
Saddam has fuckall by way of "followers" these days. He was fairly universally reviled when he was in power, and now that he no longer needs to be feared, most Iraqis have moved right on to ignoring him completely.
Of course, some people suggest the laughable idea that just because Iraqis are resisting the US's invasion, they must be doing it out of loyalty to Hussein. That there are exactly two sides here, and if they hate us, they must love him.
No, there's plenty of room for hatred of both the US and Saddam. In fact, given that for most of his reign the two were cooperating, it would be fairly hard to hate the one half of the team without hating the other as well.
Saddam did things far worse than simply killing. His execution is an act of mercy for the millions of people who will continue to live in terror of him until he is dead.
Umm.. unless the a perception of using the trial as an election prop makes their courts seem less credible locally and such a perception might incite more local revolt further ...
undermining the court system when 'freedom fighters' are tried by the same
'infidel backed' court that they are fighting due to the 'election manipulation'
used to 'continue the invasion of infidels'
I've not been to iraq, but I'd imagine that US elections and possible change in
policy viz-a-viz the war being faught in their own country might be a -little bit-
of a subject at the moment.. Does tahiti care? perhaps not - but I'd wager
that Iraq does.
but yes.. they'd have to announce it some time, and that time will probably
be politically benificial to someone somehow and deterimental somehow no matter
how you slice it.
I'd love to see confirmed stats proving that. I know that Saddam was a peace loving hippy before he got ousted but some part of me just wants to scream BS to this post.
Anyway as to your other comments, I think it's now pretty obvious why Republicans don't want gay marriage. A lot of heterosexual men would love for straight marriage to be illegal too. "No really, Baby, I'd love to but we can't! It's the law!" What better way to play dingle-dangle-dongle with the personal equipment of your own gender without ever having to make a commitment? It's brilliant! BRILLIANT! And I always thought the Republicans were so well dressed simply because they were rich. They sure had me fooled!
Anyway, having realized that about the party I'm going to have to turn my R-card in at the door since I'm not gay. They say there's room for everyone under the tent, but you know that's always been lip service. Though I guess if I attended more of their rallies the camera would always pan to me, the straight man, as well as those couple of black guys who come to every meeting (And seem as well dressed as the others... hmm...) That leaves me in a bit of a quandry too -- I don't smoke enough pot to be a Democrat or a Green party member and the Libertarians do have some good ideas but they always seem kind of kooky. Maybe we need to for some centrist parties to represent us folks who don't seem to be represented by the two big ones anymore. I know I'm not the only one.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Condeming a person to death does not strike me as particular ethical, but ok, he was a bad guy. Had I been the judge, he would have stayed in jail the rest of his life. And out of humanitarian reasons, I would have allowed him a suicide pill.
.. the sentence itself is nothing to be proud of. It marks the failure of international law and the sad state of the world today, and I know of at least one world leader that really should acknowledge that.
But
Well, your post is propably a troll, but I'll answer anyway:
Um, you listed 5 (five) things.
Yeah, nothing like a public execution to drive home the point that killing is WRONG !!!
How much damage is a deposed dictator capable of doing ?
Of course not. How could anyone possibly make such a mistake after reading your comments :).
Except the government. Which Saddam was when he committed his crimes.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I'm pretty sure most slashdot readers visit other news sites too for non tech news.
Or maybe it IS tech related. The Internet will be more open in Iraq now? The choice of polymer rope will depend on his weight and the weather? US soldiers will return home now reducing the job prospects of geeks in the military?
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
So...not kill him?
Sent from my desktop computer
You got to be kidding me right? I'm saying they timed it. The court adjourned on July 27th. They couldn't find a day to announce it other than two days before the mid-term U.S. election - say after the election or a month or so ago? I agree with giving people the benefit of the doubt but that doesn't mean you have to be stupid.
reading the reactions of the slashdot public on this news item, I cannot help but be proud of the independent nerd mind. In general they seem to recognize the bigotry of this verdict and the horrible mess that the Bush administration has created in Iraq. As far as I am concerned, Bush should be brought for a Neurenberg-type court and hanged. The same for his british (and dutch) Quislings.
Paai
Have you seen the trial? I saw some coverage on BBC. The whole thing was a farce. Some defense attorneys were killed for gods sake. Does that strike you as a proper trial?
What's totally amazing to me is that he was not tried for gassing the kurds or gassing the iranians. Amazing that nobody would be charged for those crimes.
evil is as evil does
It's great Saddam has been found guilty of these crimes. I have always said that supporting Saddam, giving him chemical weapons, and handing him funds under the table ( such as through the Australian Wheat Board ) has been one of the worst foreign policy blunders of the Western world.
However justice must be even-handed. If Saddam gets the death penalty for killing a handful of Iraqis, then George Dubya, Tony Bliar and Johnny Coward must also receive the death penalty for their part in causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis since the illegal invasion, and the millions of deaths due to the UN sanctions that has crippled the country ( softening it up ) for a decade. When will I see their trials,and will their executions be televised?
You do realize that the (former) male prostitute that outed said evangelical minister has stated his motivation WAS, in fact, political and due to upcoming elections? Apparently the minister in question is an active figure in defeating same-sex marriage legislation and other "gay rights" causes.
Which.. of course... doesn't mean every act in the world is timed just right to have the maximum political clout. Or that those who claim otherwise have any true insight.
What you're missing is that jail is sufficient to stop him from killing again, so your principle doesn't hold. In fact jail prevents most crime except those very limited crimes that can be accomplished from within a jail cell (buying and selling drugs, killing a guard, copyright infringement and other thought crimes).
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
From the article:
"As the verdict was read, Saddam yelled out, "Long live the people and death to their enemies. Long live the glorious nation, and death to its enemies!""
"Later, his lawyer said the former dictator called on Iraqis to reject sectarian violence and refrain from revenge against U.S. forces."
Somehow... somehow I really doubt that, unless Saddam had a remarkable complete turnabout, this lawyer is not accurately representing his client.
The message from the lawyer sounds more like something planted by a U.S. propaganda ministry than what Saddam would have said.
Also of interest:
I see that some of the defendants were convicted of... torture. Will the trials for torture by the Bush regime and its agents be held before Bush leaves office, or after? The answer is: Never. For those not paying attention, Congress has already passed into law the legislation essentially pardoning the Bush regime for its agents from its illegal torture and other human rights abuses. While the Iraqi people are seeing this Saddam regime brought to justice, the American people have already handed over their right to bring the Bush regime to justice.
It sure does feel like deliberate timing, doesn't it. But that's not really the point. I think the Republicans would like nothing better than having their opponents squealing about the timing of the verdict, because that means everyone is talking about the verdict. No one, and I mean NO ONE, who's planning to vote Republican gives a crap about the timing.
If you want to convince people to vote for change in control of the house, talk about issues:
Iraq has been a serious boondoggle for this election cycle. It may be getting the democrats some needed votes, but people prefer to vote for people who are for something over people who are against something. That's why some races have so many undecided voters.
--
real news without sensationalized crime and celebrity gossip
Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.
Obviously it serves as a reminder that we went into Iraq to oust a leader that is so bad he's worthy of hanging. If you believe that Iraq had ties to bin Laden (which amazingly many Americans still believe), then its a reminder that Republicans will continue fighting the war on terrorism and keep our country safe from evil-doers. Anything's better than bringing up pedastry and the rise of an imperialistic American police state.
That sword in Kill Bill that is so sharp that it can cut God might be a good start. I'm saying we need that thing.
If you think the timing coincides with the elections you are politically ignorant of what is happening in Iraq. It is so funny when I read crap like that because it shows me you have no clue or idea what is happening.
I would also remind people this was a verdict only for the 148 he killed. There are about 200,000+ more that he has killed as well. Life in prison? I don't think so.
Not by being lowered feet-first into a wood-chipper.
Not by inhaling mustard gas.
Not by being raped repeatedly in front of his family and then having his throat cut.
Not by being stabbed, shot, and having his genitals cut off and put in his mouth.
Not even by being machine-gunned from a helicopter and then bulldozed into a mass grave.
No, Saddam will simply be hanged by the neck until dead.
Actually, not much is, when it comes to an insurgency. By refusing to wear a uniform and trying to blend in with a civilian populace, the geneva convention actually explicitly states that they lose most of their protections under it.
For example, a POW under the convention must be paid for any labor they are compelled to do; be forced to work no longer hours than a standard work-week; be allowed to send out letters; be allowed one book in addition to one holy book such as the bible or koran; and a laundry list of other things.
A captured insurgent does not rate POW status, however. The only protection given is that they may not be treated in a "cruel and unusual" manner. Now, the methods being used are certainly open to debate as to whether or not they are cruel and unusual, but because this is an opinion and there is no actual list of what is permissable, the waters are muddied.
There's nothing "illegal" about this war. As someone who is on their second trip over, having actually seen how happy 95% of the populace is that we're here, I'm glad to be here as well. The media's assertion that Iraqis do not like us is about as true as saying that the Kuwaitis didn't like us back in DS/DS.
Such is the great conceit of Americans, to think that the legal system of a foreign country timed a verdict so as to coincide with our mid-term elections.
...
I'd agree with you if the US wasn't still occupying that country. You're deluding yourself if you think the Iraqi government is working independently of the US.
From Reuters:
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A court trying
Saddam Hussein for crimes against humanity could delay its verdict by a few days, the chief prosecutor said on Sunday, in a move that would shift the announcement until after U.S. midterm elections.
The U.S.-backed court had been due to deliver a verdict on November 5, two days before U.S. elections in which
President George W. Bush's Republicans fear they could lose control of Congress.
News of the possible delay follows a week of public spats between U.S. officials and Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.
Maliki's aides say he is furious at U.S. pressure on him ahead of the elections as the American public turns increasingly away from Bush's Iraq policy.
They were originally going to release their verdict in October. Of course, it must certainly be a coincidence that it was delayed to this weekend.
And you're right, it's the height of hubris and conceit for the US government to impose its will on foreign governments. But you're just being willfully ignornat if you don't see that it's going on in plain sight.
Yes, I am aware of that. Like many, I was reading all about his life in response to the recent news. The story with his daughter is just part of the long narrative of brutality and mistrust that has characterized Saddam's life. But make no mistake, he is no longer a figure to be feared but to be pitied--so much power and promise wasted on such cruel and self-serving aims. His life and fate, regardless of whether he is put to death or not, serves as a cautionary tale. That's why killing him is pointless. The lesson about corruptive power and human rights abuses has been taught, the dictator has fallen. To put him to death now serves no purpose outside of vengeance. Vengeance diminishes us and it cheapens our legal system. By killing him, we sink to his level.
What's totally amazing to me is that he was not tried for gassing the kurds or gassing the iranians. Amazing that nobody would be charged for those crimes.
It's not so amazing, actually. Those charges coming to trial would allow the presentation of evidence that would show the complicity of the US government in those actions. At that time, the US was playing a very active role in helping to ensure that Iraq did not lose the war with Iran.
The best thing for the US is for Saddam to go away, "justly condemned" before he can spill his guts about his relationship with the US pre-Kuwait. That would be very embarassing for a lot of people in the current administration.
I agree, that seems uncalled for. I think we can discuss this issue without dropping the f-bomb, even if the AC's can't help themselves.
I think it's a little cheap to compare Hussein to Hitler. Everybody compares people they dislike to Hitler and it's probably the most tired trick in the book. Example: "I don't like George W. Bush! He's just like Hitler!" "I don't like Dixie-brand Mayonnaise. Auf wiedersehen, you fascist condiment! You're just like Hitler!" I think Slashdot posters can and should do a little better than that, know what I mean?
How sad that these innocent men must die to further the agenda of the Evil Republicans.
Let's see, Democrat Gerry Studds had sex with a male 17 year old page in 1983. He wasn't forced to resign. He served in the US house of representatives until 1997. Where was the press and outrage?
Now all Foley admits to doing is writing some suggestive emails, and AFAIK that's where it all ended. Yet Foley has resigned, and if the fair minded Democrats and press had their way those who knew about the notes, or preferably the entire republican party, would be brought down.
Yes, it's pretty obvious the Democrats and their lap dogs in the mainstream media would never act unfairly. Let's see how the press spins Saddam Hussein's death verdict, etc. I suspect there won't be much advantage to for the republicans.
Incidentally, I don't deny the possibility, or even likelihood of the Saddam Hussein death sentence was timed. But the Democrat and lap dog press shenanigans are, IMO, much worse.
Ed Barbar, President and General Manager, Furnit USA
Goddamn, the US is sinking faster than the Titanic when it comes to intelligent thought. WTF are you xenophobic fucks smoking? Do you even realise that the WTC had absolutely -nothing- to do with Saddam? Saudi Arabia, anyone? Or that, no WMDs were never found, while blithely ignoring what the intelligence community had to say? Or that, hey, who would've thought it, you fucks supported Suddam at one time. Or even better, that the US feels it's outside of the ICC and doesn't have to take responsibility for its actions. No 'war' crimes, I guess.
And yet, here you are, acting all self-righteous like your macho-bullshit doesn't stink. Fuck off.
I forget, remind me, how many Americans actually have passports? Or even have a fucking -clue- as to what's going on in the world? Or -where- in the world it's happening. Education, folks. Best get some before enforcing your 'views' onto the rest of the world.
Losers.
Killing people is not consistent with Jesus' re-interpretation (and doing away with much of) the old testament. All governments are made up of people. The rules that apply to people apply to those same people when they are in the government.
blah, blah, blah... of course, the iraqis are in on the fix... blah, blah, blah
In India the death penalty is given in the rarest of cases. And carried out even less. In we have had 45 executions totally since we gained Independence in 1947.
DON'T VOTE!!!
Have any of you seen the AARP commercial on TV that says 'Don't Vote?!" I have caught it a couple of times. If you haven't seen it, you can see it here: http://www.dontvote.com/spots.html
I tend to agree with this idea: DON'T VOTE! If you do not understand a few basic concepts, then please DO NOT VOTE.
First off, one must educate themselves BEYOND the personality marketing and the basic sound bites. One must study the policy positions of the candidates prior to voting. Have you done this yet? It's real easy to study, simply visit the websites of the candidates and look at the section that titled 'issues' and read their statements. Sometimes they make their policy and issues statements vague and ambiguous. If this is the case with a candidate that you are considering, then don't vote for that candidate because you don't know what you are getting.
Want to know all of the candidates who are running and what their websites are? Want to read an incumbent's voting record in simple language? Want to know how interest groups rate the candidates?
You can check that here: http://www.vote-smart.org/index.htm
Next, look and see who is giving money to these people. You can do that very easily here: http://opensecrets.org/ This handy website lists every member of Congress, every candidate, and shows all of the financial contributions for their campaign. This is a good way to see who has influence with the winner.
If you plan on voting for a Democrat or a Republican then you are PART OF THE PROBLEM, and I ask you to also not vote! The Republicans want to expand the government, take your children's money and erode your civil liberties. The Democrats want to expand the government, take your money (and your children's money), and also erode your civil liberties. They are practically the same party with very little difference between the two.
Democrats pander to the poor/minorities, Republicans pander to the religious community. Both groups are being USED by these two parties in order to gain political power. Do you think the Democrats really care about the poor? Not unless it buys votes. Do you think the Republicans really care about the religious conservatives? Not unless it buys votes.
Are you happy with the country as it is? Would you like to change direction? Polls have suggested that the majority of voting citizens are not happy with the state or direction of our nation, yet keep voting for Republicans and Democrats. Isn't a popular definition of insanity: "repeating the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result?"
Personally, I will be voting for any candidate that is NOT a Democrat or a Republican. I realize that most 3rd party or independent candidates do not have a chance to win (yet) but I also want to send a crystal clear message to the current political cartel/oligopoly that they do NOT represent me and I will no longer support their stranglehold on the American democratic process.
Why don't others vote for 3rd party or independents? In most races there are plenty of 3rd/independent candidates that are conservative or liberal and do not have a (R) or (D) next to their name. However many voters 'want to be on the winning side' and cast their ballots in that manner. Lots of people say they don't want to waste their vote on someone who will lose. I have a question to people who vote with the idea of 'voting for the candidate who is most likely to win' -- since when did our democratic process become a sporting event?! Voting for the person most likely to win is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you want change, think about changing the way you vote!
And finally, if you do not have a good understanding of history, if you have not educated yourself on our democratic process, if you do not understand the rule of law, if you have not read the Constitution and Deceleration of Independence (
Libertas in infinitum
Wrong! The best hope for getting Democrat candidates elected is to bus hordes of illegal immigrants to the polls to vote for them so the illegal immigrants won't fear losing their welfare or to actually have some policy besides gay marriage and "anti bush" anything to compete with.
Where do you come up with this?
Everywhere I've ever voted, you have to go to a specific place and you have your name checked off a list. If you're not on the list, at best you get to use a provisional ballot.
An "illegal" trying to vote would have to have their name on the list, or have someone else's name... and use it before that someone else has voted.
I now live in a state that has vote-by-mail. You only get a ballot if you're registered to vote, which means you have to have an address. It's not likely that "busloads" of illegals are hanging out here for 30 days just so they can register to vote and then vote (you have to register 30 days before the election).
I'm much more fearful of voting machines and counting machines with no audit trail and with no real verification of their source codes. Especially the ones provided by companies whose president says publicly that he'll do everything he can to ensure the election of one of the candidates.
"Does Sadam deserve death? sure he does,"
Well, ok, does Bush deserve the same, because as we all know, he's indirectly killed more people than Saddam ever did. Arguably, he's made the world a more dangerous place to live in. And no sign (or capture) of Bin Laden - though I'm sure he's inspired quite a few cells around the world.
Futhermore, I find it a bit disconcerting that someone can be so quick about putting another person to death, not ever have met or known the person involved, and only relying upon what the media (US or otherwise) has presented.
I would think any rational, intelligent person would need a bit more -reliable- information than that. Impartiality is good. Murder by murder is not the answer. All it does is cause the USA to look more hostile than it presently is.
please come back to historical reality
we live in an absurd universe. The man who woke up today answering to the name Saddam Hussein is not the man who went to sleep the night before. The person who started typing this sentence is not the person who will end it. THE PRESENT HAS NO MEANINGFUL CONNECTION TO PAST. The idea that these actions are somehow "our" actions, that todays Saddam owns the actions of yesterdays Saddam, is purely a matter of mechanical nessecity - no more compelling than speaking of rocks "urge" to roll down a hill. The man we will call Saddam who finds himself standing on the gallows, knowing he is about to die, will in no essential way be different than those young men women and children who suddenly found themselves coughing up their own lungs.
At what point did the courts and civilians of any particular country suddenly become required to take the relatively insignificant matters of a foreign body into consideration for what happens within their own country?
It probably happens at the point when that foreign body has installed a government for you and has 150,000 military troops (and an unknown number of contractors/mercs) occupying your country and supporting that puppet government. My guess is that when the occupying power tells the puppet government to jump, it jumps. Because that puppet knows if he doesn't, he'll be replaced by another "more compliant" puppet.
When the US no longer has an occupation force in Iraq, I'll have a little more faith that the Iraqi government is working in its own name and for its own behalf.
You know, if you actually read the news articles instead of "The Knee-Jerk Talking Points Weekly" you might have known this
From the link:
"This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
Let him spend his life in prison - never spoken to nor replied to ever again. Death is to easy
There are actually a series of Geneva conventions. Some of the earlier ones deal with more conventional warfare some of the later ones deal with less conventional warfare. Either way, a key military strategy is to make it difficult for the enemy to locate you and that, as such, is not illegal under any convention.
The earlier Geneva conventions mostly apply to easily identifed combatants (uniforms are one part of this) but they don't restrict protections to less easily identified combatants either. Specifically, they don't say that less easily identified combatants should have less protections.
The later Geneva conventions, among other things, attempt to more precisely define combatants and civilian in less conventional warfare (such as occupations). Particularly taking the later Genevas conventions into account, wearing a uniform is only one consideration among many for determining someone's status.
Looking at the situation more broadly, the basic idea behind war is that, unlike in normal life, you can go out and kill a bunch of people and not be held accountable. The way this works is that if you are a "combatant" (non-civilian) then you can kill "combatants" on the other side for no other reason than that they are "combatants" for the other side. They flip side of this is that they can kill you for no other reason than that you are a combatant.
Now, if someone gets caught then they are entitled to certain protections. If they are a civillian, they can be put on trial for murder if they killed anyone but they are entitled to all the protections of civillian courts (no torture, no indefinite detnetion, trial by jury, etc.).If they are a combatant, they can be detained until the end of the war without trial but they are entitled to other protections (specifically, the Geneva conventions on POW treatment - again, no torture).
The bottom line is that either way, everyone is entitled to protections clearly specified by the rule of some law or other.
You might want to look up this little thing called sampling bias.
I don't read "Knee-Jerk Talking Points Weekly". But I have been studying the Middle East and US involvement there quite actively since 1992 when I became an Arabic linguist in US Military Intelligence. So, while I'm not an expert, I feel like I have more than a cursory understanding of what's been going on over there.
The subsequent trials will end once he's executed. Thus the whole "more than 30 days" to complete the execution once the automatic appeals are exhausted. And that will happen before anything too embarrassing for the US will be put on the record.
Isn't fertilizer also used to make bombs? Interesting coincidence.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Cut welfare and then the Americans who actually do work won't be able to afford a home or even food.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Saddam shouldn't be executed he should be kept alive in a cell for the rest of his life as a lesson for the Iraqi's to learn from.
Why not get rid of him? There is no known escape from death to walk the earth and kill some more that we know of. Saddam has killed and now, more justice than he ever gave is going to end his life of inhumanity for once and for all.
And with Saddam being dead, even a radical terrorist knows, there is no value in breaking him out of jail or killing thousands more trying to "bargain" for his release. Bargaining with terrorists never works unless it is to get them into the open for a clear shot. Putting a bullet between their ears does is both cheap and effective.
Seriously, Saddam is a mass murderer with a proven track record. Now if only we could get the death sentence for all the henchmen who funded him and were in cahoots with him from the beginning:
George Bush Sr.
Donald Rumsfeld
Henry Kissinger
I'm sure there's a list of about 20 American politicians with an equally appalling record of murder and mayhem that were at one time supporting his regime. Let's go ahead and have a little barbie trial for all of them too, right before an election.
I for one welcome our new mass murdering mass murderer murderer overlords.
rhY
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Such is the great conceit of Americans, to think that the legal system of a foreign country timed a verdict so as to coincide with our mid-term elections.
If there is any conceit here, it is that Americans might believe the rest of the world was as ignorant of international politics as they.
For God's sake, the U.S. is hardly just some other country to Iraq: they're occupying it now, and a major topic of the elections is what the hell to do there! Do you think that, just maybe, the administration of South Vietnam might have had some interest in the 1972 U.S. presidential election? How naive do you have to be to think that Iraqis, of whatever persuasion, have no interest in the outcome of the vote?
Nietzsche. Or does he just announce it?
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
I agree with the AC who responded to you first. I especially abhor the fact that US citizens
can be declared enemy combatants and held without rights.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
I think this is a case of people underestimating the Iraqi people's self-respect and dignity, tarnished though it is.
And Vietnam.st
It was the American government that caused the current Iraqi government to happen but it wasn't' installed by them.
The difference? Sure the Iraq war is the reason behind the new government but the new government has made a constitution, been freely elected by more Iraqi citizens then Americans citizens who show up to polls to vote for the last president.
I find it hard to even for a minute to claim Iraq has a puppet government instituted by any other country or that the citizens of Iraq didn't have a say in their current government when people braved threats of death, violence and everything in between to walk 20 miles and vote. The turn out in the last Iraqi election is proof the people want a say in their government and proof that they picked this government. Hell, the fact that terrorist stay in Iraq and attempt to punish it's citizens by killing innocent civilians and the Iraqi's still go out and vote in far better turnout them most western countries is proof enough.
So saying "installed them there" is a little self serving and disingenuous. Maybe "caused it to be" is a better set of words.
Dec. 1st the announcement will be made that troops will be leaving. 2 weeks after they do. Saddam's cronies are in power again.
Yes it has been a farce but there was more than one trial. One of the trials was specifically to address genocide against the Kurds, it included eye witnesses accounts from the gas attack as primary evidence.
OTOH: A "fair trial" for attrocities against Iranians during the Iran/Iraq war would raise some akward questions for the west, particularly the US, UK & France.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Now for something more current and serious, For years, we were winning the Vietnam war because the body count was so high. For years we believed we were winning the Korean war because we occupied so much of north Korea that we were practically China's new neighbor. For years, people believed Germany was unstoppable during WW2.
The point is that just because some conspiracy or set of hyper extended facts make something appear one way, doesn't mean it is that way. Conspiracy theories are marketed with enough truth mixed with opinion to make them appear real but in the end are usually designed for the express purpose of making someone or something appear in a light it isn't. Usually the most stupid are the victims of these conspiracies but more recently, reports have shown the us slipping in education and at the same time the amount of conspiracies have increased.
Ramsey Clark was ordered out of the courtroom in Baghdad's fortified Green Zone.
Mr Clark had handed the judge a memorandum calling the trial a travesty. Judge Rauf Abdul Rahman pointed to Mr Clark and said in English: "Get out."..."
I love it. :)
"It's time to take life by the cans." ~ Bender ("Bendin' in the Wind", ep. 3-13)
You are entitles to your opinion. Even if it is wrong.
The trial was awkwardly produced so that it afforded every aspect of muslum/islamic law. It met those standards and the verdict is going to be final.
...just one point though, the original poster made the Hitler picture reference not because he was comparing Saddam to Hitler, but to show how absurd it was for the initial poster who linked to Saddam's picture and based on that picture with his daughter, intimated that he [the parent poster] felt sympathy for Saddam because...why?, because he looks like a caring father?, then based on this sympathy, he asserts that Saddam has suffered enough...blah!...the person in reponse linked to the "Hitler" baby picture, as a sarcastic retort to the idea of sympathy for a dictator based on a picture...hell, everybody looks cute and harmless as a baby or kid....or even hugging their daughter...
and yes, Slashdot posters can do better... Comparing Saddam to Hitler is sensible, but, agreed, Saddam is not exactly like Hitler, most despots and tyrants are not "like" Hitler...but there is definitely some overlap on their madness and murdering ways...
But you forget the basic tenet of "International Law". A country is only bound to the rules it agrees to. Although the US signed the original Geneva Convention, the additional protocols that would cover insurgents were not agreed to by the US. Most of Europe agreed to them.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
In Soviet Russia, the dictator executes YOU.
Big surprise another democrat war monger!
His whole argument is based on the idea that a "War on Terror" can be won. How do you win a war against a thing? The simple fact is that the longer we prosecute this 'war' the more people we will motivate to attack back using terrorist tactics, such as suicide bombing, sniping, truck bombing, hit and run, road side bombs.
Think about it. If your home town were occupied by Iraqis, or Mexicans, or even West Virginians, and they conducted door to door raids, bombed out whole cities, imprisoned thousands without charge, tortured your brother, destroyed your infrastructure, left you with 2-6 hours of electricity per day for a few years on end, wouldn't you fight back using whatever tools you had?
This war, as defined, cannot be won. If we redefine it for what it really is: a war to establish political and military dominance in the key oil producing part of the world during the next several decades of declining oil production, then sure we can pull it off. But at what cost?
-- QED
*Womens rights in Iraq.
*A Western Court System
* Money Towards Education.
* And actually spending money on developing an infestructure in his country to keep it going when the oil money runs out...
Really, for every bad thing this man did, he did at least two good things.... And given how many bad things he did, that should give you an idea of all the good. He kept things stable, made sure the fanatics were controlled, and that there was a greater degree of equality amongst his citizens then many of the nations in that area.
3 degrees of separation from Vladimir Putin
happy people in the street
You're just digging your hole deeper, you know.
Some people will be happy, some will not. Either way, they could have been happy a week later without the appearance of impropriety further hurting the credibility of their government.
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
I completely agree with everything you say but how long would the Iraq government last without an approving "nod" from the US/UK? You only have to look at how palestinians have been treated since they dared to elect Hamas in a free and fair election. The extreme levels of hypocricy from the west is why many people belive the US has it's hand up the arse of the Iraq government.
I'm not sure when the next election is due in Lebannon but if Hezbollah runs they will win by a landslide, we will then have yet another state who will be continually punished until they "recognise Isreal's right to exist" (whatever that euphemisim means?).
Whatever you may think about Hamas, the fact remains that they kept their end of the bargain
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
You mean by timing it?
Well, they didn't have any 'WMD' at hand to use at the point the US invaded. They had plenty to use a little over a decade earlier, which incidentally substantiate some of the charges lined up to file against Mr. Hussein in case this trial fell through, but don't let me bring the thread back on topic or anything awful.
But they appear to have had highly accurate classified information to use to create nuclear weapons. Certain outspoken liberals made certain to validate this by exclaiming in the past week: 'the plans were good enough that when McChimpy Bushalburton put them on a website, it helped the Iranians.' So we've verified that the Iraquis had a Nuclear Weapons program, and plans far in advance that Iran has at present. That sounds suspciously like Weapons of Mass Destruction to me.
Nobody is talking much about this at the moment, though. It's that time of year when all the grown up versions of those sucky kids in the Student Council are ranting and raving for our attention.
Hah! Talk about great conceit. In France they can be this blithe about the U.S.'s calendar. In Iraq, who do you honestly expect to fool?
Hint: fooling gullible Americans doesn't help.
Free cigarettes to homeless people in Wisconsin to vote Democrat will help, too.
And I imagine somebody has been clipping and saving the obituary pages for the last year...
Once you've decided that politics is a game to play 'for righteous results' the end justifies the means, you know. And there are lots of cynical Democrats.
That's quite possible. I live in orange county (spot of red in a sea of blue) and have relatives in republican majority areas.
At a minimum, it pushes some of the other stories off the front page; at the moment, that could only be good. Most of the other stories today have to do with horrific acts by Republicans and their religious advisors, or the awful failure of the war.
More ambitiously, it could be said to, at least in theory, convey a more positive message about our progress in Iraq. They would have to do what they did, though - time it very, very close to election day - because even within days, it will be clear that both the sentence and the execution are relative non-events, and that the low intensity civil war for control of Iraq will not really be affected by Hussein (or his death) - a net negative for neocons and hawks.
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
This deceptive post hinges on the deft equivalence between "a [any?] foreign country" and "Iraq."
Tired of Political Trolls? Opt Out!
"or famous evangelical ministers are outed for using methamphetamines with male prostitutes [yahoo.com] and the news comes out in the weeks prior to the election..."
Come on, he was just getting a "massage" and he didn't use the drugs, he just threw them away. If I had a dime for every time I bought meth and then threw it away...
If you can read this sig, you're too close.
It's just too bad that Newt and Co. decided that dedicating themselves to the failure of Clinton's Presidency was more important than, you know, trying to run the country.
Shutting down the government to spite Clinton was the act of petulant children.
This is my sig.
Oh... you mean like George W. Bush did..
I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
As someone who is on their second trip over, having actually seen how happy 95% of the populace is that we're here, I'm glad to be here as well.
Just watch what happens the minute you leave, though. I'm willing to bet that the chaos will go on for years, and finally the local bigshot who emerges victorious is not exactly going to be US friendly. So what exactly will you have risked your life and or bled for? Apart from hanging Saddam, I mean?
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
do any of you guys happen to know when the US election is?
I'm dying to know and I'll be sure to let you get back to talking about whatever it was you were talking about when I do...
Saddam Hussein and his sons murdered men, women and children based on the outcomes of kangaroo courts and sometimes on mere whims. He is captured and his sons have been killed based on the whim of the U.S. government to go to war with his regime.
Now, the same thing is going to happen to him. I say that it (the hanging) needs to be done. A murderer (a person who intentionally kills another person without just cause such as putting to death a murderer or preventing a murder) should be killed regardless of social or political status. I take no pleasure in seeing him or anyone else being killed, though.
To answer your question, "That's a deliberate attempt to time the news with the election, right?"
I think it could be a very deliberate attempt to time the news.
"What do you believe?"
I do not know what to believe. I believe that the news about Saddam Hussein hurts the 'Democratic' side, but I believe that the hypocrisy of the evengelical leader being exposed hurts the 'Republican' side. What I do KNOW, however, is that both sides of America's mainstream political party are driven by power, money, greed, and corruption. I believe that most candidates in NEITHER side of mainstream party will remember the interest of the nation when they assume office.
"What do you think the Iraqis believe?"
I believe that most Kurds and Shi'ites are happy about the verdict and will be even happier to see him dangle. However, I believe that many, if not moost, Sunni's are dissatisied with the verdict. Since the majority of Iraqis are Shi'ite or Kurdish, I believe that a majority of Iraqis are happy with the verdict and will be glad to see him dangle. However, I believe that that most Iraqis still want the U.S. military out of Iraq. I WANT our service members out of Iraq. I believe that the war in Iraq was an unconstitutional action on the part of the U.S. government (my slant on the story).
"Given that there are very few Republicans in Iraq, do you suppose it's possible that they might take a more cynical view on the timing of the verdict?" The Sunni's, Baathists, and a small percentage Shi'ites may be VERY cynical. However, most Shi'ites, Kurds, and some Sunni's will be very glad to see Saddam hang. As far as timing goes, those who are against the U.S. occupation will most likely try to use the timing issue to their advantage.
"Could an appearance of impropriety by the Iraqi court could be, by far, the most reckless of the 'October Surprises'?"
I could very well be - here in the United States. I believe that those who are fighting the Americans in Iraq will try to use this as a propaganda point. I also believe that the Baathists and a majority of Sunnis will probably see the court as a kangaroo court.
They didn't - they wanted those foreigners off their soil as quickly as possible and even had forced deportation of guest workers.
The Mexicans are able to, why can't Americans? If they give up the video games, flat screen TVs and cars I guarantee you they can get off welfare and afford a home. I see them at Wal-Mart with expensive designer clothes and then they swipe their Food Stamp cards and complain that they can't buy the sugary cereal. If I can do it on a college student income, they can do it.
NT
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
"I see them at Wal-Mart with expensive designer clothes and then they swipe their Food Stamp cards and complain that they can't buy the sugary cereal."
You actually hang out a Wal-Mart collecting this kind of data?
I feel more sorry for you than I do for them.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Your teacher is plain wrong. Let me quote wikipedia on the 11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings that most people believe led to changing the elections results 3 days later:
The attacks came three days before the Sunday elections...
The Government chosen motto, was very criticized by all the opposition, because "with the Constitution" inclusion in the motto, implied that the bombs were set by the Basque ETA, while many in the opposition believe that it was made by a Islamic group in retaliation for having the Spanish government troops in Iraq at that moment...
By the time Aznar and the King had made their public statements in the afternoon, doubts over ETA's involvement were substantial enough that both of them avoided naming a culprit, and they referred just to "terrorists". Aznar insisted on the need to stay the course, echoing his Interior Minister's earlier remarks...
Many people suspected that ETA was being blamed in order to hide Al-Qaeda since that could mean that the massacre was in response to the Iraq war. According to the Real Instituto Elcano, this could have resulted in the Aznar government losing the Sunday elections.
"I think this line is mostly filler"
If the sentence is justified by how many innocent Iraqis Saddam has killed, maybe he shouldn't be alone on the gallows. Too bad for him that he didn't have the foresight to exempt himself from international law and basic human decency beforehand.
Yeah, all those innocents he killed with American weapons handed to him on a silver platter. Of course you can also add all the innocents killed trying to capture him, not to mention our own soldiers. You're right he shouldn't be alone in the gallows and I have a few people in mind that should join him, and they aren't Iraqi's.
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
Since a major part of it is about nationalism anyone that wants to become a bigshot has to be seen to be going against the US - just like 1920 when the Brits had to leave. There have been a lot of bombs since 1991, sanctions arguably to starve the people into overthrowing the regime and then an occupation - how do you get goodwill after that? How do you get a Ghandi verbally complaining instead of someone else complaining by sending out a suicide bomber every morning?
College student income is a bit higher although it doesn't come to you in cash: Your dorm is much cheaper than a poor teacher's apartment(for several reasons) and besides your parents are probably the ones paying for that. And you may be able to walk to class but the teacher who lives two blocks away from school has to have a car in order to drive. You also probably don't have any children, that multiplies the food expense and requires much more than your cheap dorm.
Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
Or how about for treason...leading our country into war without cause and on a tissue of lies resulting in the deaths of thousands of Americans and many more thousands of Iraqis, and the expenditure of billions of dollars we don't have. By a purportedly "Christian" president against one of the few Arab countries with a secular government that had a Christian Foreign Minister (Tariq Aziz). Whose interests do Bush and Cheney really represent? The Saudis? The Israelis? Who knows, but one thing is certain. They do not represent the interests of the majority of Americans.
Perhaps there should have been a codefendant in this trial. We, the United States, have a funny way of arming dictators and encouraging them then cutting and running.
Try and find some information on Saddam's or even Milosevic's mass graves. Western news corporations have effectively avoided the entire topic and instead focused on the "let's bash Bush" approach.
I am not sure what this could imply for the current US administration.
As far as I get, they are responsible for invading two countries, one of them without much of a reason, after bombing it back to stone-age (the other was pretty fucked up before they got there) and establishing a network of illegal prisons and deportations that allow prisoners to be tortured and held without right to the slightest semblance of due process.
It's sad we came to this. Saddam should not have never been supported. The same goes to the Shah and Khomeini (who wasn't supported by the US, anyway) and a very long list of small dictators.
Today's verdict shows that no former ruler is immune to a sufficiently motivated tribunal.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
Don't get me wrong; I'm an agnostic who disagrees with the death penalty. The problem with bringing the bible into the equation is that there is always some passage that disagrees with your point.
Is everyone afraid Bush will be next on the list of country leaders to be executed? :P
You have tried to support your argument with faulty reasoning! Go directly to jail; do not pass Go, do not collect $200!
"Hey you guys. Yeah you. You guys who have been waiting for a decade to bring your psychopath leader to justice. Yeahh... we've got an election over here in the U.S.... how about you just delay that whole verdict thing?"
Well considering virtually everyone has predicted a surge in violence following the verdict, wouldn't that be a blow to Republicans? Besides, what do you want them to do? Suspend world events for a month prior to elections in America just to avoid appearing to tamper with American politics?
And you really are the first one, Republican or Democrat, I have heard complaining of any issue being an "October/November surprise" (including the Foley or Haggard scandals, though to be honest I havn't been following the Haggard issue due to the fact that I don't care about it). In fact, with regard to Foley, those events happened some time ago. The accussations that are flying around are not that it was sprung right before the election, but that the leadership tried to delay it from coming out until after the election. You might want to read the actual stories instead of just glancing over headlines.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
Reading some of the comments above, it seems that you dumb americans have actually been convinced that you live in a free country? How quaint, your dictators are most amused.
The rest of the world HATES americans.
Not just the middle east - the whole world hates you.
sadam:
"A death sentence or life imprisonment generates an automatic appeal, delaying any execution by months at least. Saddam has said he wants to face a military firing squad, not the hangman."
wiki:
"The firing squad is commonly used to execute spies; the renowned World War I spy Mata Hari was executed in this manner. It is often considered a particularly honorable method of execution, and as such is intentionally not used for war criminals, who are often hanged -- a penalty associated with common criminals. In contrast, firing squads were used by some countries to execute war criminals after World War II, most notably by Poland, Russia and Norway."
Given Bush & Co.'s rhetoric and laws about their own immunity from war crimes I think that it is almost impossible that Saddam would have ever gone to The Hague. Also, as others have mentioned, a lingering trial may have led to embarrassing moments (such as Saddam or his legal counsel talking about US arms deals, the Iran-Iraq war, etc)... no, they want him dead and quick. What if the court gave him a life sentence and he writes a memoir (leaving in the juice bits, unlike Musharraf)?
There is also the fact that almost the entire European continent is against our illegal war(s) of aggression, and the fact that we blatantly lied to the UNSC about Saddam's WMD. A protracted trial would also bring renewed focus on our own use of chemical and near-WMD type weapons (white phosphorus and depleted uranium, respectively) that are illegal under the Geneva Conventions and other international laws. It might also remind people about how we killed 1.5 million Iraqis with sanctions (500,000 of those under the age of 15). Sanctioned killing plus current post-invasion estimates put our own dealing of death WAY beyond what Saddam did to his own people. Who is going to look like the hypocrite war criminal then?
So your point is that pulling out of Iraq was at least as useless as this "Iraqi court" farce? You know, I don't even disagree with you. Myself, I think a sane and productive course of action should have involved staying out of the damn place, to start with. But we'll never know, right? Anyway. Go write your own jokes to push your own agenda, man. Latching onto others' is not cool.
There's nothing "illegal" about this war.
Keep on telling yourself that. Keep on telling yourself that.
This is a good Godwin moment. At least have the decency to admit you are doing wrong but are too cowardly to say no. Then you might deserve some respect. But following orders is still no excuse. And, no, the Geneva Conventions do not allow you to torture people. Such acts were as wrong in World War II as they are today. May God have mercy upon your soul.
I think a major difference between Iraq and Palestine might be that Palestine was being supported by Israel and the US primarily. Iraq has oil it can sell it to finance itself and isn't dependent on the US or foreign money in the same ways (although they do receive aid from a number of other countries). The comparison might be more similar to Cuba. And Cuba is lasting 40 or so years so far.
I'm also not too sure on how Hezbollah would fare in Lebonnon outside the roles they already play in government there. I hope your not right. People remember Israel was the one who started the last round of violence but the people will also remember Israel was responding to something Hezbollah did and their neighborhoods were targeted by Israel because Hezbollah tried to hide among them. So Israel was responsible for the damage but hezbollah was responsible for the violence. Israels occupation of Lebonnon More or less created Hezbollah. Thier withdraw might also show the people that falling back on the old ways might bring back the old death and violence. I wold imagine most people are getting sick of it and just want to live normal lives by now.
The idea behind "Israel's right to exist" comes from right after WW2 when the Muslims in the area started slaughtering Jews forcing the UN to offer protections form genocide to Israel. Several Gihadist Muslim leaders claimed the jews had no right to "live" then once the UN separated Israel from palistine (around '46) they claimed Israel was not a legitimate country and needed to be cleansed. Several leaders from surrounding countries have repeated these statements multiple times with some of the most recent being made even this year. How this relates to Hamas is that this is their historical rallying point that formed Hamas in the first place. Forcing them to concede that "Israel has a right to exist" would mean a symbolic end to the violence from that group and likely ensure peace in the area. Until then, they will probably be considered a terrorist organization preying on innocent civilians who are trying to go about normal activities.
"Saddam Hussein has been sentenced to death along with his half brother.
Three Baath party officials charged with Hussein in the killings of 148 Shiite civilians have"
What about George Bush and 650,000 dead Iraqis.
Oh wait. They're brown skinned foreigners. They don't count.
...oh surely you mean blood-baath :)
In 2004, a couple of months after Saddam's capture, the Russians published a weird thing :
d dam.html
"Saddam's wife could not recognize her husband"
http://english.pravda.ru/world/20/91/366/12494_sa
My income is barely above minimum wage, I work two jobs and my mother is a single secretary so she doesn't have anything to give me.
I live about 6 miles from school and drive a 12 year old Oldsmobile with 220,000 miles on it with a leaky windshield. I drive this ghetto-mobile from an over priced one bedroom apartment that I share with another person.
I don't live in a dorm. I don't have any children, but is it my fault that they have children. If they could keep their penis in their pants or their legs closed that wouldn't be an issue. Children don't just show up to make someone poor.
Everyone makes choices in life, some bad some good. A teacher shouldn't be teaching for the money. They know that they don't get paid much before they go into teaching and if they didn't like the pay they're in the wrong field. Teaching should come from the joy of teaching and not be about making money.
I don't take money from the government because it's not your's, your mother's or your grandparent's job to pay for my college.
Every statement in the post above is a lie.
When logic fails, all that remains is faith, whether in a deity or in some fundamental sanity of the human race.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
A foreign country? You act like Iraq and its government has the same relationship to the US as does Switzerland. The USA has hegemony over Iraq. It's better described as a mother-country, that Iraq is its colony, than as a foreign country to Iraq.
I have been reading about when they were going to read the verdict for months, starting when this trial ended. They should have released the verdict when the trial ended. Not wait for months to coincide with an election.
Actually, attempting to stay in power is the goal of any political party.
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
hate speech is not free speech
The fuck it's not. Go kill yourself, you worthless pussy.
Maybe we should let him run the country again since no one else can.
Yeah he invaded Kuwait but he was repelled.
F__k , he was our ally once.
Reuters headline: "Bush calls Saddam conviction milestone in Iraq".
I don't quite understand just what kind of a "milestone" this is, but it does make me think that we sure spent a lot of money (and dead bodies) to get one man executed.
They did seem to get to the heart of the matter, didn't they?
Saddam 'did sign death warrants'
What's totally amazing to me is that he was not tried for gassing the kurds or gassing the iranians. Amazing that nobody would be charged for those crimes.
FACTBOX-What happens next in Saddam trial
The situation is tough, the justice may be a little rough, but Saddam is getting justice, far more than his victims, assuming he doesn't have some sort of divine right to mass murder.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
sorry..i mean...In Iraq, Saddam used to hang everyone else :-|
Eclipse PDE and Me
.
Ummm, no. Their decision killed maybe 10-30,000 people directly. Let's say half of them being "the enemy" where "the enemy" are a bunch of murderers trying to sieze control of a country by force. Another 70,000+ innocent people were killed by these very same murderers in Iraq over the past 3 years. One *could* argue that they should have seen that coming and thus it *could* be argued that they bear some fraction of responsibility for those deaths. But the murderers in Iraq that did the actual killing are the ones mostly responsible, for their own deaths and for the innocents.
Sadaam personally oversaw the deaths of approximately 10,000 innocent people per year, every single year he was in power (approx 20 years). He was also 100% directly responsible for the Iran Iraq war which resulted in the deaths of 500,000 people.
So, let's recap. Bush et al, 10,000 to 30,000 (and half of them were fighting on the side of murders and Saddam, 3,000 willingly fought and died fighting for Bush against the murderers and Saddam, maybe slight culpability for the deaths of innocents killed by other murderers in Iraq since the invasion). Saddam - 700,000. All unjustified deaths. All 100% culpable.
Now let's re-visit your statement:
> wonder if Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld will one day be tried and sentenced to death, too. After all, they've killed 100x the people Saddam did.
Yes, a HUNDRED TIMES as many, thanks for filling us in Baghdad Bob.
(Fucking mental midgets)
.
The current 'government' of Iraq would have their heads on pikes outside of Bagdhad in the first few hours after the last US chopper left. Do a little critical thinking. Outside of Kurdistan there are very few Iraqis that want us there, and that includes the Iraqi Civil Resistance who are the closest thing to what the administration claimed to be promoting.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
Well, he's been sentenced to death for 148 deaths of Shiite villagers that were caused by his orders. Nothing else is proven. Before you start throwing random numbers around again, consider the source.
And don't get me wrong, I do think the guy deserved what he got. But I also think he's not the worst offender here.
I wouldn't talk too loudly. You see, I just found out that if somebody wins the mod point lottery and thinks you hate their freedom, then they go back under cover of darkness and mod contrary opinions down as "flamebait." Such is the way that divergent opinions are punished on Slashdot. I'm amused at how broken the moderation system is, when one person and his or her 5 points can be enough to derail a thread with 100 different responses. But as my long-dead, ex-marine grandfather who was prone to use of colorful language used to say, "It's no sweat off of my balls." Eat shit, Slashdot.
Honestly, reading the responses to this thread has made me lose respect for Slashdot readers as even a cut above average. Clearly most are not thoughtful nor intelligent posters. Witness the vast number of responses to this thread that read like "Oh, so you see a picture and think he's a family man and you feel sorry for him? What about all the people he killed, do you feel sorry for them too?" and so on. It is a trite undervaluing of the original statement. It misses the point. It badly and embarrassingly misses the point.
I feel sorry for Saddam because, as another poster was apt to also notice, daughter and father--smiling and lovingly posing for the picture--had a relationship based in cruelty just like many of Saddam's other relationships (he killed her husband, she fled the country, etc.--READ the Wikipedia entry for more info, for godsake). The picture belies a reality--a reality that, despite the vast power he held as the undisputed ruler of Iraq--Saddam could not maintain. Saddam was no family man, simply a tyrant who knew enough to value only those within a small, trusted inner circle. When I see Hussein with his daughter, posing like that, I see a false reality. I see a relationship between father and daughter that was only aspirational. It makes me pity him like "Even this, which he was most proud of, has gone wrong for him."
The other part of my original statement is rhetorical and leads into what you have said. You are right, of course. America has already ironically outdone Saddam in terms of cruelty. Suddenly Uday and Qusay's torture rooms don't seem nearly as bad compared to the legally sanctioned torture by American operatives that is undoubtedly going on even as I type this. We once prided ourselves on being able to take the moral high road, of being better and greater than our enemies. Clearly that is the case no longer. These people (both on Slashdot and in our government) want Saddam Hussein to die painfully. Also, they want even those people only suspected of being terrorists to be tortured in secret dungeons without any hope of release or reprieve. They mock those who plead for compassion and mercy. They lack humanity, they lack wisdom.
This is not a political issue, and about whether or not you support George Bush or hate terrorism. It is only that political operatives have done a very good job of making you think that it is. No, this is a question of how human you really are. It is a question of how much you value human life, and the moral tenets we once held dear.
The man is going to be hanged probably in a public square. What is this? 1885?
Yes that will be a spectacle for the world won't it? A public hanging in the newly democratized iraq.
Anyway what I saw of the trial it was a farce. A complete railroad.
evil is as evil does
Actually, I was the original poster ;) And I think you and Mr. Hitler Picture have completely missed the point of this discussion and of the original post, mostly because you have failed to educate yourselves about who the girl in the picture is and the circumstances that led to her fleeing Iraq. I didn't lay it out for you people in the original post because I thought you were smart enough to read the accompanying Wikipedia entry and realize the great irony in what the picture attempts to portray. I thought wrong.
I won't repeat myself. Just read what I posted here.
That's great news for all of us who loathe torture & killing of innocents.
So when is Bush going to be indicted for his own numerous crimes against humanity?
A little variety reading for you...
One, Two, Three, Four
Cheers
The HALP photo was fabulous.
There is another one too, from the Army-Air Force game.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Good point. That is precisely why it is called the OLD Testament. You're talking about living under law, which nobody can do 100%. We have to have a means of salvation so that we can be 100% squeaky clean. So the only solution is for God himself to eliminate rule of law as the means to the end of salvation as soon as human civilization sufficiently evolved to handle standing free of law. God had to pay the only sacrifice that can actually free us from sin. That sacrifice is God's own blood and suffering in our own native human form.
I'm in agreement with the parent poster, as the scripture says. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that as soon as his blood was shed in sacrifice, that all law that came before Him would be broken. If we completely trust in Him then He lives in us and begins to change us like a fire provides a chemical change, and He eventually guides our actions. Search that page for "law".
And then here's how it is after Jesus paid for all sin, in Galatians 3, verses 15-29. That explains the whole spiritual concept of humanity needing to be free from rule of law. In other words, following laws alone doesn't, can't, never could, and never will make you clean.
Thus began the New Testament, or Humanity 2.0. Eternal salvation explicitly without law.
I hope it's not too confusing, and other translations are available at a click. Just watch out for the fake Christians whose prayers consist of asking God to institute their own will, such as "WWJK"? (who would Jesus kill?)
As with any parent/child relationship, whether we like it or want to accept it is another thing.
I have had a creepy feeling about a local restaurant. Now I can confirm my fears are true... http://andrews.trash.googlepages.com/home/
Why not? Although they aren't really the weapons the coalition forces were looking for, coalition forces and/or UN inspectors have recovered intact or largely intact weapons containing anthrax, sarin, and mustard gas. Do you have a preference? If not those, maybe something from the banned research that was going on in Iraq? Maybe C. botulinum Okra B?
Document Details WMD Recovered In Iraq
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Iraq is not a foreign country. It's an american dominion with kangaroo courts!
Or, even without the trailing slash: http://andrews.trash.googlepages.com/home
"Use the preview button! Check those URLs!"
You have misinterpreted me, I said the trial was a farce, I didn't say it wasn't fair. Similar trials have been held in the past with the same cage-match theater with various groups demanding various conditions (Re: Italian Mafia trials). I don't belive anyone has the right to impose a death penalty but I do belive justice has been served, may he rot in hell.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Does anyone want the U.S. and other foreign troops to stay in Iraq?
Yes - me. I was totally against going into Iraq, but I am even more against leaving until we put right the mess we made. At the very least we have an obligation to restore the infrastructure (medical, power, water, security forces and schools) to the same levels of efficiency as before we invaded.
More than that, I don't want to see a power vacuum in a nation so ruled by religious antagonism. Sunni vs Shiite running battles throughout the streets of Iraq is not something I want to see.
We made this mess, we owe it to the innocent victims of both the previous administration and our 'allies' to clean it up.
Weren't the US going to "give" democracy to the iraqis?
Killing the opponents of the current government is not democracy in my book, and neither is retroactively sentencing someone for doing something that was legal at the time (A dictator MAKES the laws, so if he wants to do something, he will simply MAKE it legal).
From my point of view, the US will have succeeded in giving democracy to the iraqis when - and only when - the iraqis get a chance to vote for or against Saddam. Only being allowed to vote for the opposition is not better than only being allowed to vote for Saddam.
Killing Saddam will make it impossible to vote for or against him. Thus he will never be removed from power in a democratic way.
I'm not trying to troll but my God[Jesus] says that the death penalty isn't for anyone.
Romans 13:3,4 (KJV) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
It seems you have confused your God's instructions to individuals with the role of government. Even secular authorities recognize the difference, ie: If someone attacks me, I may not sentence them to imprisonment and lock them up, but the government can. How do you interpret the rulers bearing the sword as a minister of God if the death penalty is disallowed by God?
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
"The comparison might be more similar to Cuba"
Well, a Cuba under occupation where US snipers shoot children sitting in UN schools may be a comprable situation.
The UN "gave" Israel to Jewish refugees from WW2 and entrenched the religion in it's constituion thereby excluding Muslims from the get-go. At the time, and to it's credit, the US objected to the idea of a Jewish state. However the US quickly warmed to the idea as the cold war heated up, Isreal and the US became best mates.
The hitch was the country they drew on the map and called Israel was already populated and called "palestine", if any "genocide" occured the Jews were not the victims ( hint: how many Bedouin do you see wandering around nowadays? ). Anyway, a few wars later the palestinians are now literally fenced into a poofteenth of the land their grandfathers populated.
As I'm-a-dinner-jacket's rhetoric goes: The problem was created by Europe so why not solve the "ME problem" by shifting Israel back to Europe (say Ireland, just to stir things up a bit).
"Forcing them to concede that "Israel has a right to exist" would mean a symbolic end to the violence from that group and likely ensure peace in the area."
The people in the world's largest "concentration camp" would rather not be shot at while the politicians work out the "symbolisim".
As for Hezbollah, they are polling above 80% across all political/religious divides including the Maronite Christians, the nutcase leading them is now seen as a fucking hero by Muslims across the entire ME and as far away as Indonesia, before July they only had that sort of popularity in their strongholds.
Ironically, the reason Hezbollah is now "untouchable" in Lebannon can clearly be traced to Isreal's horrific attempt to physically deny Hezbollah's "right to exist" back in July.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Well george bush has signed death warrents for about as many people (as governer), and some of those weren't 18 at the time they were sentanced. AFAIK the torture only came after he was president though. I find it odd that they got saddam on charges that could be laid against dubya instead of something like the gassing which the US didn't do. I guess they didn't want saddam showing the receipts for the gas (from donald rumsfeld).
See Do we have him or his double? Will we ever know ?
Another report: at The Truth Seeker
There is more: Google for "Robert Fisk Belarus Saddam Minsk" for what Fisk thinks about where Saddam really is hiding !
America found Saddam guilty of something. I am shocked!
Yay me!
The man is going to be hanged probably in a public square. What is this? 1885?
Public executions are still pretty common in the Middle East and other parts of the world. Would you prefer it was done in a small room inside a prison, like in the US? He is just as dead either way.
Yes that will be a spectacle for the world won't it? A public hanging in the newly democratized iraq.
That in fact might be entirely appropriate, especially if they can keep their democracy. Not shot like a soldier, as he requested, but hung like the criminal he is. Sic semper tyrannis.
Anyway what I saw of the trial it was a farce. A complete railroad.
Do you think the verdict wrong? Did the "railroad" go to the wrong place? Is there any real possibility that he wasn't guilty? Is there some theoretical defense that he could have offered that would have gotten him off from his well known and documented crimes? Saddam had as many as 1,500 lawyers helping his case, but all of that legal help was impotent in the face of overwhelming evidence. The only thing you could possibly offer would be some sort of procedural argument as there isn't any real argument that he didn't do it, is there? I don't think there can be any reasonable doubt that justice was done.
If you still think it a travesty, maybe you could pay homage by posting with the handle: killsaddam? Or should that be: dontkillsaddam?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Such is the mindless observation of parent, that does not recognise that Iraq is STILL occupied by USA, and therefore does not really constitute an independent "separate country" with it's own legitimate "legal system". It's a fucking stitch-up from the get-go, and how can you be so blithely ignorant and dismissive of it ? Foreign conspiracy theorists ? No, we're just observant civilans.
*ahem* he killed shiites to please sunni's
w osadd064963621nov06,0,142696.story?coll=ny-worldne ws-print
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-
so obviously, he does
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
I dont think anyone can deny that Saddam ran a very strict regime....but just because the way he did things isnt like how most Western countries do things doesnt mean it is "wrong" or punishable by death.
Look at how many civilians have been killed in US raids in Iraq over the last few years - it makes Saddam pale into insignificance. Or perhaps people think the ends justify the means?
What surprises me most about Saddam being found guilty and executed for this particular crime is this:
- The village in question contained many people that contributed to a plot to attack Saddam's convoy as it drove through the village.
- The plot was discovered by Saddam, and in typical dictator fashion he sent the boys out to take care of business.
- The order was for the people to be arrested and tried.
- They were arrested. They were tried. They were found guilty. They were executed as a result.
Now the way Iraq does that may not be the same way my country does that, but I still respect their laws and process.
So what does the US do?
- Hold a dodgy trial that the world knows was propped up fully by the US and could only have one result. (Does anyone seriously think there was a chance he would get found innocent and released??!!)
- Ignore the fact that this village was apparently full of many people trying to kill he countries leader.
- Find Saddam guilty of Crimes Against Humanity, and sentence him to death. Its not exactly on par with what I would consider crimes against humanity, but aside from that, surely a plot to kill you is a reason for a leader to take pre-emptive action? In the US the Secret Service and FBI would have cracked down very hard indeed and the penalties would be to the greatest extent of the law - just like they did in Iraq.
- Worse still, they also charge the judge that found them guilty and sentenced them....and they sentenced him to death too.
I cant believe they would sentence a judge carrying out the rules of the land - regardless of how much those rules suck by our standards.
Unfortunately US politicians dont understand the mindset of many people in that region and in particular that country. They NEED a strong hand leading them, almost to the point of a dictator being needed. This is the only way they keep a cap on local infighting, which would otherwise result in constant civil war - which is EXACTLY what is happening now in Iraq, and will continue to happen until a strong leader comes back in. And if you doubt that, find some people from that region and ask them. You may just be surprised atthe answer you get....(I was...)
Unfortunately Bush got rid of those people who understood that going into Iraq would cause a 30 year mess and be unwinnable. It is almost amusing to now see the mess they created, as it was completely avoidable. What is sad is the 2000-odd US citizens who have been killed on duty for something that shouldnt be happening.
It would be good to watch a documentary about the original intent and reason for the US invasion of Iraq. Anyone remeber those WMD's that were guaranteed to be there? That seemed like a valid reason to invade Iraq (not that it was - the US has more WMD's than any country). But as that reason was found to be invalid after years of searches, has anyone asked why the US invaded a sovereign country?
And now factor in North Korea. Oh no, they cant have nuclear weapons as they arent a US ally. And Iran. And any other country unfriendly to the US. What a crock.
If anyone should be tried, its the US. The anti-US hatred generated by US actions over the last few years will outlive all of us.
I hope Saddam manages to escape. Not because I feel sorry for the bloody dictator, but because it is right and just that he should be able to take out blood revenge on the murderers of his two sons. Even the ancient Homer talked about the importance of man having sons, so that sons are able to avenge the murder of their father or vica versa. I hope Saddam manages to grab an AK47 and take many GIs with him to the afterlife.
As to the future of Iraq, most of it (the shiia counties) will join Iran within a year, the south will join Kuwait and the north will form the basis of independent Kurdistan, whose mere existance will topple the reigning atheist, fascists military dictatorship in Turkey. In general, the muslim world will be much strenghtened as a result of Dubya's 2003 iraqi invasion and destroy the west.
With US elections a few days away - did anyone really expect something different? The date alone was certainly not a coincidence.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Wow, looks like he's getting off easier than the guys we Questioned to Death.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
Uh if you haven't noticed, Iraq is basically an American territory at the moment.
The political ignorance of the slashdot community is absolutely frightening. Very few of you seem to understand that, when confronted with an enemy intent upon making you cease to exist, leaving them alone is not going to make them stop. Muslim terrorists do not fight for money or power. They can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity or remorse, and they absolutely will not stop until we are all dead (or until they are crushed in a giant press).
These "progressive" liberal thinkers out there are naïve in the extreme to think that if we capitulate to what we think their desires are, we will make the terrorism problem go away. We tried to ignore the problem for 50 years, and all that accomplished was to embolden them to ever larger and more elaborate attacks. What these people completely fail to understand is that the Muslim terrorists' desire is OUR DEATH and NOTHING ELSE.
Such as not announcing a verdict on the weekend before the U.S. elections.
Why? Now at least we know for fact that americans are willing to kill people in order to win an election.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Such is the great conceit of Americans, to think that the legal system of a foreign country timed a verdict so as to coincide with our mid-term elections. Not much less of a conceit to suggest that they should modify their schedule so as to minimize the appearance of impropriety to a bunch of foreign conspiracy theorists.
This isn't some random foreign country. It's Iraq, which is occupied, and to a large extent, run by the US government.
Not saying the judgment was deliberately timed, but if the US government wanted it to be released on a certain date, it wouldn't be too tough for them to arrange it.
The libertarian solution to the failures of capitalism is to apply more capitalism til the failures are fixed.
Well, before you accuse everybody of being stupid...or not as smart as you are, go back and look at what you initially wrote.
... sounds incorrect. Why not compare Saddam's cruetly to America's or what Uday and Qusay's did in their torture rooms and what allegely the American's have done, and then tell me if they are morally equivalent...
You said "I saw this picture..."....well, everybody went to the picture, which had no accompanying text next to the picture, so, taking your exact words, "I saw this picture...", you gave the impression that you were basing your whole comment on the picture alone and not on any accompanying links to Saddam and his daughter. Most people, well, maybe not most, but at least I know there is more to the story with Saddam and his daughter...and his son-in-laws...but that is not the reference you directly made. You insinuated that you were basing your comments on the picture....which seems to be that you were implying that since he is a father, with a seemingly sweet daughter, all this humanizes him in a way to evoke sympathy, despite his past misdeeds... that is what most people inferred from your terse post.
Granted, you elaborated much, much more in your reply post... but sometimes in being too subtle or nuanced in trying to make a point, everything gets lost in the translation... since most reply posters did not "get it", that is not because they are not bright. It is just the original post, more than likely, did not fully convey the real point your were trying to make... your reply post makes much more sense with the added detail...
although, from you comment "America has already ironically outdone Saddam in terms of cruelty. Suddenly Uday and Qusay's torture rooms don't seem nearly as bad compared to the legally sanctioned torture by American operatives that is undoubtedly going on even as I type this."
IF anything, the fact that there are Americans fighting for the rights of the detainees and challenging Bush's power, that alone demonstrates that the ideals of America are still intact. In Saddam's Iraq, challenging his authority would get you tortured and maybe killed... due process did not exist.
But whatever you say buddy, if hanging Hussein makes you feel better about the horryfing mess created by your elected representatives, all the power to you.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Oh it's an american court all right. It just doesn't happen to be located in America.
Or to put it another bay, it's american in the same way that camp x-ray is.
3 of Hussein's lawyers were murdered.
Witnesses were intimidated.
The court that will hear the appeal is the same one that just sentenced him.
And so on and so forth.
The Iraqi justicie system was not prepared to deal with this, and neither where the US, that had shown no regard for any international agreements in the detention of prisioners of war, of which Hussein is clearly one.
Hussein deserved a proper, impartial, fair trial in order to make sure that all his alleged crimes were investigated.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Saw this on google news last night.g erjq1.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/7573/doppelgan
-- Boycott Shell
He had a huge political and repressive apparatus behind him.
Hese people were and continue to be loyal to hime because the many favours received, and some even grudgingly accept that without him, Iraq would have disinitegrated in the mess it is now.
Hussein is by no means a likeable character, but it is an oversimplification to imply that nobody feels any loyalty for him.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... in the Internation Court of Justice.
But wait, the US does not recognize the court.
Tha explains everything I suppose, the US prefers medieval standards of justice to civilized ones.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Not Hussein's, not the US's
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I don't know which society you are talking about. I will assume you are refering to either Iraqi or US societies, which are no shinning examples of dishing out justice when it comes to serious crimes.
The UN, EU and many other countries as well as all human rights organizations and watchdos, not forgetting the Catholic Hurch and many other religious institutions, agree that the death penalty is inhumane pinishmanet against the right to life enshrined in the universal declaration of human rights,
The US is the uncomforatable position of being more akin to China, Saudi Arabia and Iran when it comes to the numbers of executions, executions of minors, and many other gross violations of human rights (Guantanamo), that should give a big clue to the US public about the moral stand they share in the eyes of the civilized international community at large.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Sorry, you don't get it.
The Iraqi people is free (in the context of the US demarking the limits of that freedom of course) to do wahtever they want.
But if the commit barbaric acts like executing people, they should be told in no uncertain terms that a big chung regards that as barbaric behaviour.
And if Iraqis are in any doubt about which kind of countries use the death penalty, they should look at the countries that use it more often. Countries like China, Saudi Arabia and Iran do so with relish.
If that is the kind of standards a young democracy is going to aim for, they are letting down their own people.
As a comparision, one of the first things that happened in Southafrica when they regained their freedom was to abolish the death penalty.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
International multilateral agreements are law, read your own constitution and treaties, you are sorely misinformed.
It is absolutely true that there are no practical means to enforce the law against the US, but the fact remains that the law exists, the US is a signatory (the UN charter) and that they broke it, no matter how cleverly you try to spin it.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Simply compare the countries that thare the US stand in regard to the death penalty.
That should give you a huge clue about the moral quality of executing people.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
> elected by more Iraqi citizens then Americans citizens who show up to polls to vote for the last president.
The population of Iraq is about 26 million; about 8.5 million votes were cast, about 33% of the total population. Meanwhile, more than 121 million votes were cast in the last presidential election, about 40% of the US population.
I did these as total population figures as I can't find a reliable number for the total number of eligible voters in Iraq. But in any case, this particular claim of yours is demonstrably false.
Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
This belongs to the "stuff that matters" moniker.
You don;t like it? Go to your preferences and exclude it buddy, nobody is forcing you to click on the topic.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Good one.
But just in case, comissions in the US legislature have found that Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11.
Clarifying just in case somebody does not get the joke...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Not even if Iraq qas paradise on Earth, which it clearly was not.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
But you are so brainwashed that can't understand this.
He secularized Iraq, a country where religion and politicis did not mix, ad qicked out in numerous ocassions the asses of religious fundamentalists that saw him as his enemy.
But go on, drink the Replubican Kool Aid, falvour of the month is Fear.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
Come on, kid, just try it, you'll like it. The first one's free, or are you too scared?
Obama likes poor people so much, he wants to make more of them.
All this will do is create a martyr out of him. Rotting in jail or exiled forever... He fades into obscurity. But our leaders aren't very bright lately. They seem to think life is like some T.V. episode, complete with the cowboy hats and the clean G-rated endings.
OMG, plain and simple that is a horrible interpretation of the Bible. I can't understand why people take these quotes and assume them to mean people killing people is OK. The Bible never makes such a suggestion.
This is really silly, but maybe can interprete that Jesus said we should all be cannibals to live forever:
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life
I guess my point is that little quotes from Bible verses are always taken out of context and misinterpreted.
"Do you think the verdict wrong?"
Yes. The verdict is wrong because the trial was not fair and impartial. The trial should have been held in international court.
He is no more guilty of killing those people then george bush is of killing 600,000 iraqis. Perhaps I should say they are both equally guilty.
the good thing about this trial is that it sets a kind of precedent. Maybe one day GW will be tried for all the people he killed and tortured too.
evil is as evil does
People respond to the kind of treatment you give them. I'm with you on the weak hearted liberal front (too many see kindness as weakness), but you're /totally/ out on the root causes.
The main starting point for a reasonable debate is a degree of equality in treatment. If you create a 'them and us' style situation you will prevent the problem from ever be solved.
Having said all that, I remain unconvinced that this mess wasn't intentional. It's such a convenient distraction from desperate local issues like health and general state of the nation in the 2 main participating countries (UK and US) that I have trouble convincing myself it's an accident. WAY too convenient.
Also, let's not forget the amount of weapons this conflict sells, not just in the main region but also in affected areas like Israel.
Follow the money - it usually adds up nicely.
You should really travel outside of the echo chamber every once in a while, it does a body good.
At the height of US arm sales to Iraq the value reached a whopping 125 million a year for a total sales of, wait for it, 200 million dollars over 20 years. And for the record, those sales consisted mostly of light helicopters.
In comparison, France, every liberals shining paragon of virtue, in that same time period had a total sales of 5.6 Billion (yes, that's with a "B"), with no such limitations as those sales included tanks, armored vehicles, fighter craft, etc..
On the list of who sold what to Iraq, the US is actually closer to Canada for total sales than any of the other major arms producing countries of the world.
Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
There are many, many world leaders that are so bad they're worthy of hanging -- depending on your sense of right and rong. Many of which we've comitted covert acts of war in an attempt to keep in power.
Not to mention there are quite a few people in the world who suspect (and rightly so) that Bush has authorized war crimes just as horrific if not worse than Saddam's. (Torture, Rape, Holding People without a Trial, [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/44406
And I fail at HTML! haha.
m
Proper link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4440664.st
Such is the great ignorance of Dun Malg, to think that a U.S. puppet regime can be considered just another "foreign country."
Saddam Hussein is still alive? I thought he hung himself!
perhaps i did.
You make excellent points. With regard to my first point, I would begrudgingly agree. It is a bad writer who blames his audience for not understanding, and if there was a failure to communicate, it surely must have been on my part? Still, I thought it was clear that I wasn't going for the "Oh look, he's a family man" angle at all. I guess it really, really wasn't clear at all. So then we had the situation with people like "Hitler Picture Man" making hay based on false assumptions. Oh well, it's a forum, not the end of the world.
Regarding your next point, I did of course compare the actual, documented torture perpetrated by Saddam and his sons versus the mere potential for torture under the newly passed "Torture Bill". I admit trying to slip this one past you. Kudos to you for identifying the discrepancy between the two. But you must agree, the idea that you or I could be identified by officials in the executive branch as "enemy combatants" and spend the rest of our days in a Gitmo dungeon without access to any legal process that could prove out our innocence is pretty scary stuff.
Am I supposed to forget about the slim possibility that it could happen simply because it hasn't happened yet?
I would love to see the Democrats take back at least the House. This "take away your privacy and human rights while we wage a pointless war" shit has gone on long enough. It is high time for some functional checks and balances. I guess we'll see what happens in the days to come. Good luck to you.
Not sure that exactly applies here. First we are not talking about a phenomenon, we are talking about a truthful set of events. The second is that a truthful accounting of a set of events can often be more complicated then the most simplest answer.
A guy swerves to miss a person who darted into the road causing him to lose control of the vehicle and strike a parked car is a different set of events then a "guy hit a car". We have the same elements but different causes. This is what we are dealing with here, reasons for things to be.
Google "Stern Gang" and "Irgun." Jewish settlers attacked Arabs and British people. David Ben-Gurion was a wanted man with a reward by the British for capturing the terrorist.
King David Hotel Bombing, a terrorist act they still celebrate.
I think this sounds great in principle, but I don't think it will ever happen. The Sunni Arabs having lost power are practicing a scorched earth strategy. If they can't be in power, then Iraq will be a burned out grave. It seems that Iraqis would rather join militias than the security forces. It is far easier to destroy than to rebuild.
If the U.S. leaves there are two scenarios: the fighting dies down or it escalates to a full scale civil war.
A decrease in the violence sounds exceedingly optimistic, but it is possible. A lot of the nationalist insurgents may stop fighting once the "foreign invaders" are gone. Potential foreign fighters no longer have the promise of killing Americans if they go to Iraq. Without the backing of powerful foreign governments, the Shia dominated government may make compromises that they wouldn't otherwise. And its a brutal thing to say, but the Sunni Arabs will be cowed by the fact they will face genocide if they provoke the government too much.
Civil war will only happen if the Sunni Arab population decides that they would rather fight than live in a country in which the majority rules. They are in a terrible position if they decide to fight, the Shia Arabs outnumber them three to one and Iranians are in an ideal position to assist them.
Saddam deserves to die more than anyone else, but having said that, this trial was a sham. Saddam had over half a dozen of his defense attorneys killed and the presiding judge was replaced no fewer than 3 times. Under the circumstances of this trial, there is no way Saddam got a fair and impartial trial. he should have been tried in the Hague just as other war criminals were, unfortunately that would have exposed US complicity in bringing Saddam to power as well as us arming him with the weapons he consequently used to perpetrate his crimes. What is really ironic is that the guys who were funding him back in the 80s are the exact same people who are now cheering on about his execution. Rumsfeld and Chaney were both parties to the funding of Saddam, and now his former allies will be his executioners. its a shame that what could have been a true trial where the truth was revealed has turned into a circus. Iraqi's cheer his death, but make no mistake, they know, and they remember our complicity in his actions. the only ones who dont know is as is typical, the american people.
Fool me once...shame on you, fool me twice...won't be fooled again (our president)
France? Liberals? Canada?
Time to shut off Fox network and get some sunlight, there's a big beautiful world out there.
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
A difficult question. On the one hand: you're the ones that made the mess; you are certainly responsible for cleaning up a catastrophe that you've caused. On the other hand: I don't think much of your ability to clean it up. So the only possible answer is: whichever is best for the people of Iraq. They certainly shouldn't be made to pay for your crimes.
Way to refute my points. I bow to your master debating skills.
BTW these numbers are from SIPRI, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.
But of course, if you were interested in finding the truth of the matter you would know that since it's either the first or linked to by the first entry in almost every Google search on the subject.
Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
Way to refute my points. I bow to your master debating skills.
Thank you.
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everybody agrees that it is old enough to know better." - Unknown
I stand corrected. On the other hand, I'd have to ask how automatic is really is if paperwork has to be submitted. I mean, if the lawyers don't submit paperwork, would it just sit in limbo forever or would the courts go 'no complaints, sentence stands'.
I don't read AC A human right
I think this news is exactly where it belongs, since it's also having mixed up opinions/feelings from slashdotters too. I rather want to see these reactions instead of seeing the news on a CNN/BBC site where the reactions come from anyone; not only people working/playing with technology.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..