What Does It Take To Get a PC With XP?

An anonymous reader writes "Christopher Null tried to buy a computer with Windows XP pre-installed on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib."

Comments

How is this difficult?

[Drakin020]

I constantly purchase Dell computers for my work. They come with XP Pre-Installed but they also have a Vista license.

Now for a normal home user, this may be different, but I've had no problems at all.

Maybe it's for the kind of computer...I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Martin Blank]

Corporate customers get significant leeway in their orders, especially if a contract was signed beforehand. Even without those, however, most corporate customers have access through Microsoft to Windows XP under Open, Select, or Software Assurance licenses and if the Vista licenses that come with the computer fall under the terms of those agreements, they may legally downgrade. (There may be some other situations in which a customer may legally install a prior version of Windows, but I'm kind of fuzzy on what they may be.)

Re:How is this difficult?

[philspear]

Now for a normal home user, this may be different, but I've had no problems at all.

Well... we're happy for you? And impressed with your ability to brag about what you're able to purchase for your work?

In answer to your question, it's difficult because we're not you and are, in fact, normal home users.

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't have needed explaining...

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure that a copy of vista business or ultimate comes with the ability to downgrade to xp so the retailers can install xp.

Re:How is this difficult?

[TitusC3v5]

Or, if this DOES become a real problem, simply purchase a computer from your local mom and pop PC place. If they're anything like the ones here, they'll be happy to set you up with whatever OS you want, be it XP, Vista, or *nix.

Re:How is this difficult?

[KillerBob]

Go to the Dell website. Click on the computers (either notebook or desktop) for Small/Home Office, instead of for consumers. There, you'll find a product line called the Vostro, which offers the same hardware as the Inspiron line of product, but a different aesthetic look/feel. The difference? On the Vostro, you have an option to upgrade from Vista Home Basic to Vista Business edition... last I checked, it was $90. One of the two Business options is to have it come with XP Professional pre-installed.

It's not hard. You don't have to lie. You don't have to be a business to order it. And you can order it through the website without having to speak to a sales rep. (though you can also ask for it over the phone)

Re:How is this difficult?

[Todd Fisher]

My in-laws (normal home users) bought a Dell laptop with XP pre-installed 2 months ago. I was not privy to the phone call when my father-in-law ordered it but I am positive no 'fibbing' was involved. Again, this was about 2 months ago.

Re:How is this difficult?

[KillerBob]

One more thing... you can also choose that option on the XPS line of gaming systems.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Hatta]

It's not hard. You don't have to lie. You don't have to be a business to order it. And you can order it through the website without having to speak to a sales rep. (though you can also ask for it over the phone)

But you do have to pay extra for it, which is worse than having to lie to get it.

Re:How is this difficult?

[MMC Monster]

It used to be that on the Dell website they had a prominent link for XP desktops and laptops. That link is gone.

They do offer a downgrade option to XP if you buy Vista Ultimate, however.

I bought three Dell Windows XP laptops since last summer. I am sure not going to pay them extra to downgrade from Vista Ultimate.

Re:How is this difficult?

[gfxguy]

I get ads from MicroCenter occasionally, and they resell some of the more popular brands... prominently displayed in the latest one (I got two days ago), they are selling two systems with the exact same hardware specs from Dell; one has XP and one has Vista, and they are the same price.

In fact, it seems like many of the computers they are selling are XP (although many of those are refurbs).

I don't usually buy from them, but it's http://microcenter.com/ if you care to look. This isn't an endorsement.

Re:How is this difficult?

[LordVader717]

What the heck? This may somehow shake your current view of the world, but most people here are "normal home users". No matter what their technical knowledge is, no matter how many PCs they have, no matter what OS they use, anybody who isn't purchasing hardware exclusively for their profession is classed as a home user.

Do you meet the requirements for dealing with business customers? Are you employed to make decisions on hardware purchases (and if you do it obviously shouldn't be used privately)? Do you own your own business? Can the computers be depreciated on your tax? If not, you're a normal run-of-the-mill home user.

Re:How is this difficult?

[pixelpusher220]

This changed within the last 2 months. I ordered and XPS back in May, no problem having XP listed with no extra 'fee' to downgrade.

Just purchased 2 more computers and the XP option is gone. i didn't poke around the site much, I just went to a local retailer that still had pre-installed machines available and got my XP boxen.

Congrats Dell you just lost 2 computer purchases.

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

we're not you and are, in fact, normal home users

I'm not you, and I, in fact, only use Windows at work. In my job role I basically get to tell people what they are and are not allowed to purchase in terms of computer hardware, so the OP's post is quite relevant to me.

I have seen at least one other slashdotter claim that they only use Windows because they have to for work as well. I've not seen many claim that they are 'normal home users'. I expect people in that category spend far more time watching YouTube or playing 'The Sims' than they ever do on slashdot. What level of interest does your average computer user actually have in how their computer works? Consider how many drivers are interested in how the alternator in their car works, or even know that their car has an alternator.

Please refrain from using 'we' when referring to yourself - unless you are perhaps royalty or an editor, then it is of course your perogative.

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't have needed explaining...

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

Only someone at our company ordered an XPS that has no equivalent XP drivers. I really didn't want to let them get Vista, but they were wanting something flashy to show off at presentations -.- They now want to install XP on the laptop but tough shit, I warned them in the first place, and if there are no drivers available, then the system may be pretty unusable in XP. There perhaps are hacked XP drivers or even actual XP drivers available now though.. is that a ray of light at the end of the tunnel?

Re:How is this difficult?

[brouski]

But you do have to pay extra for it, which is worse than having to lie to get it.

Only if your soul has no value.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your not really well with grammar, much less anything.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

So long as you have Business or Ultimate, you can downgrade it yourself legally.

http://forums.microsoft.com/TechNet/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1425295&SiteID=17

Just get a OS reinstall CD from Dell. This is of course, as long as drivers are available.

Re:How is this difficult?

[dotancohen]

I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.

Good thing the Inspiron comes with Ubuntu.

Re:How is this difficult?

[poetmatt]

I've yet to hear of driver problems with the XPS overall...thing doesn't exactly use specialty software.

Especially if you're talking for DX10/DX9, etc.

So yes, I suspect light at the tunnel in that regards.

Re:How is this difficult?

[harshmanrob]

I was about to post this until I saw someone beat me to it. Why is everything on Slashdot a fucking conspiracy?

Re:How is this difficult?

[LynnwoodRooster]

You always had to pay extra for XP Pro on home machines. Vista Basic is the same as XP Home; you pay to upgrade to Vista Business (XP Pro's replacement) and you get both Vista Business and XP Pro.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Hatta]

There's no such thing as a soul, so it can't have any value.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Medievalist]

Please refrain from using 'we' when referring to yourself - unless you are perhaps royalty or an editor, then it is of course your perogative.

Hey, pr'aps he's got a tapeworm!

I was probably supposed to end that sentence with "you insensitive clod".

Re:How is this difficult?

[Jasonjk74]

I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.

Good thing the Inspiron comes with Ubuntu.

I was wondering how far down I'd have to read to find an utterly-devoid-of-context Linux comment!

Re:How is this difficult?

[fm6]

Lying in a good cause is actually good for your soul!

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your not really well with grammar, much less anything."

It's, "You're..."

Snicker.

Re:How is this difficult?

[cyphercell]

souls are a fiat currency - they have value so long as everyone *believes*.

Re:How is this difficult?

[CowTipperGore]

Even without those, however, most corporate customers have access through Microsoft to Windows XP under Open, Select, or Software Assurance licenses and if the Vista licenses that come with the computer fall under the terms of those agreements, they may legally downgrade.

The licenses that come with the computer are completely separate from Microsoft's volume licensing programs. Dell is selling you an OEM license for Vista that includes downgrade rights, which means you can run Windows Vista, XP, ME, 2000, 98, 95, or 3.1 on that particular computer (volume licensing is not tied to particular hardware). Large VARs and OEMs traditionally did not offer nor support any downgrade options themselves, but the corporate demand for XP over Vista created a significant enough market for some to offer it now. Whether you can get this on a home PC seems to depend on the salesperson you get (at least at Dell), with some offering it at no charge, some refusing to provide it even when requested, and others doing it for a $99 charge.

Re:How is this difficult?

[hurfy]

Oddly enough i just checked for myself last night. Took me 2 minutes to find one through tigerdirect/systemmax. Check box on the custom build.

Interesting that it has a link for the terms of windows by the downgrade, so maybe one is lying by checking the box but i didnt spend the needed hours reading it all to tell ;)

Re:How is this difficult?

[RingDev]

I would venture a guess that a decent number of /. users are in a position where they could, using their own funding, purchase a new PC for personal use through contacts/contracts available to them only because of their business relationships.

As for meeting the requirements for dealing with "business customers", on the dell website, that requirement is limited to being able to click on the 'business' link instead of the 'personal' link.

-Rick

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone can buy one with XP preloaded at www.microcenter.com.

Look for a system with "Windows XP downgrade rights". These come with XP preloaded, and a Vista license and disk to upgrade to Vista, should you ever want to.

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

Are you perchance a fellow subscriber to A Word A Day? Either that, or you're just very good with your Twain references!

Re:How is this difficult?

[initdeep]

stop replying with facts to morons.
it makes them look stupid and we can't have that in today's modern world.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Martin Blank]

You can buy systems with Windows licenses that come under the corporate agreements. You have to do it through a Microsoft license rep for the company, though, and not through the regular sales channels.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Maxwell]

What? Dell's Optiplexs come with XP by default. No extra charge. You get a Vista upgrade CD with it.

How freakin hard is it for slashdottters to visit www.dell.com? Does it not work in Firefox or something?!? This whole thread is hilarious.

Let me summarize: Anyone, no matter where they work, or what they do, can easily order a PC with XP on it, especially from Dell. Heck I was browsing Optiplex 755 order specs yesterday (on a freaking iPhone for crying out loud) and was happy to see XP was the default OS...

Re:How is this difficult?

[Dracker]

It must have been a Freudian slip; I read that as "Go to the Hell website"

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

This may somehow shake your current view of the world, but most people here are "normal home users"

Slashdot readers? Normal? You're new around here, aren't you.

Re:How is this difficult?

[flahwho]

...anybody who isn't purchasing hardware exclusively for their profession is classed as a home user.

Do you meet the requirements for dealing with business customers? Are you employed to make decisions on hardware purchases (and if you do it obviously shouldn't be used privately)? Do you own your own business? Can the computers be depreciated on your tax? If not, you're a normal run-of-the-mill home user.

If telling DELL that I'm a business customer is the only way im going to get XP pro on ANY system I choose, then therin lies the difficulty! WHAT AM I ?!?

DTFR. The need for xp Pro is usually facilitated by the need to connect to a Domain.

It doesn't matter whether you do this at home or work, and certainly doesn't matter if your need is for a profession.

So what the heck do YOU classify a home user who wants to connect to his domain server?

I find Domain usage is way more secure and easily managed than any other form of windows networking - and I use it at home!

Re:How is this difficult?

[BPPG]

As TFA implies, vendors are much more likely to cooperate if you tell them you're buying computers in bulk.

A:

Be prepared to fib and say you're planning to buy 25 computers during the next 12 months.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

stop replying with facts to morons. it makes them look stupid and we can't have that in today's modern world.

Why not, if they look stupid enough they may get elected to public office so you're doing them a favor.

Re:How is this difficult?

[ShinmaWa]

You can also go Alienware's website (which is now owned by Dell). I picked out an Area 51 and clicked "customize". Halfway down the page I was offered not one, but two XP options:

( ) Genuine Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 - DirectX 9 Only! [-$50]
( ) Genuine Windows XP Professional - DirectX 9 Only!

Doesn't even cost extra. I also wouldn't call Alienware as targeted to a corporate audience either.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Provocateur]

These come with ... a Vista license and disk to upgrade to Vista, should you ever want to.

And for some odd reason, the disk is wrapped in cloth, that when unfolded turns out to be a straitjacket bearing a warning label: You'll be needing this when *they* come to pick you up. And what appeared to be a EULA was actually some sort of release form...

Re:How is this difficult?

[Khyber]

Good luck finding XP drivers for any of nVidia's newer mobile graphics. I had to hack the .inf file to get the ForceWare installer to recognize my 8600M GS in my HP DV9825 under windows xp pro.

Re:How is this difficult?

[SudoScience]

You're right, it isn't difficult. Not only can you buy XP with personal or business models from Dell, but...and don't tell anyone...but you can't roll back any copy of Vista to either windows 2000 or XP. This has been a feature of windows for a while.

So if you're paying more for a copy of XP, get a clue and just buy Vista, try it, and roll it back if you don't like it.

A better question is why is this news and did this guy even do any research?

Re:How is this difficult?

[DrugCheese]

Could I give you $1 for your soul then?

Re:How is this difficult?

[dotancohen]

I was wondering how far down I'd have to read to find an utterly-devoid-of-context Linux comment!

On /.? You must be new here.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter if you believe or not. Soul value just isn't contingent on what you think, little narcissist. :) For example, I don't believe in taxes but every year I keep getting a bill from the gummit! I just throw it away, no one has said anything yet.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see, so 1 soul = 1 USD ?

Re:How is this difficult?

[Gewalt]

Wait, you're worried about the eternal ramifications of telling a mistruth... TO A SALESMAN?

Re:How is this difficult?

[PopeRatzo]

Maxwell, I'm not sure what you were looking at, but the only way I could find on the Dell website to get XP on one of their laptops is to pay for Vista Ultimate and then downgrade. The person who submitted this article didn't have an Optiplex in mind, as far as I can tell.

Maybe I'm just missing the magic screen where they make it easy to get XP Pro instead of the MS Vista Ultimate Sucker Edition, but it does in fact seem that Dell has not made it a simple choice.

Re:How is this difficult?

[tgd]

In that case I think I have twenty souls in my wallet right now, and according to the fed, they're down 10% in value this year.

Re:How is this difficult?

[hairyfeet]

Have you tried Z-tweaked, or maybe Guru3d? I have always had a better experience with their drivers than anything Nvidia puts out,and there drivers are hacked to let you run them on pretty much anything. And I know that one of them does put out mobile drivers because I accidently downloaded them once when I was in a hurry. Finally there is Driverpacks which will let you make a full WinXP DVD with every driver for both desktop and mobile preinstalled. I have an unattended version for repairs and it works beautifully. I hope this helps,and as a PC repairman I can sympathize. Trying to find that one missing driver can be a royal PITA.

Re:How is this difficult?

[jedidiah]

It's as if suddenly XP is getting the "Desktop Linux" treatement...

Re:How is this difficult?

[hairyfeet]

Actually a guy sold his soul to Hell pizzeria for $3800,so the current value of the average soul,or at least his average soul,was $3800.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Mister Whirly]

Instead of pissing about not seeing the option, you may want to call and talk to a Dell rep. I have gotten things that were not listed on the web site before by simply calling Dell and asking if other options are available. Every once in a while I can find a better deal on the Small Business Dell site than the Corporate site I usually order through. Dell is always more than happy to match the price on similar (not even identical) hardware if I ask them to. Just because they don't advertise an option doesn't mean it isn't available.

Re:How is this difficult?

[jedidiah]

That sort of comment is VERY informative.

If the hardware vendor won't pre-load XP for you, you can probably find someone still selling the OEM version.

This was much more commonplace when MS-DOS rules the roost.

What's an OS install when you have to deal with DOS?

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

YES!!!

Support your Local PC Shops!

I believe that this is the best way to get an XP machine. I know The place I work still does XP on computers. Most local stores will.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

I just spent 3 days getting an XPS1530 to run under XP. The drivers are out there for the hardware. It takes some time and blueray playback will not work due to hdcp issues.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh... you mean like the dollar :)

Re:How is this difficult?

[Kadagan AU]

If you RTFA, they go into detail about the official policy, and their actual results attempting to purchase from the nation's largest PC suppliers. Some of them were very helpful, and hassle-free with getting an XP machine, while others flat out refused to help. TigerDirect even said that installing XP (after purchasing a CD with it) would void the warranty on the system!

Re:How is this difficult?

[kesuki]

I am sad this article made front page.

Do slashdot readers really buy Dell PCs? WTF I can grab an oem copy of XP home. pro, heck i can still get OEM windows 2000 if i really want to. I have been building from parts every PC I've used except laptops, and for a laptop, I'd rather go with Apple products than dell. heck, there are even places that sell linux laptopshttp://www.google.com/products?q=linux+laptop&btnG=Search+Products&show=dd, WTF, why would i want to buy a bloated, OS like vista, or a older than the hills XP when i can put a nice linux, or apple based laptop on my network.

Re:How is this difficult?

[evilbessie]

That is actually HPs fault they have a custom graphics chip, it's the same with their consumer tablets if they use the stock mobile chip you can usually get XP drivers directly from nvidia. Or at least that is how I understood this issue when I came up against it.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Saint Stephen]

Use laptopvideo2go.com

Re:How is this difficult?

[kpainter]

I see, so 1 soul = 1 USD ?

Therefore, 1 soul = 0.6317 Euro and falling

Re:How is this difficult?

[Sandbags]

Buy a Dell model that supports XP pre-loaded, DON'T choose the upsell, use your existing XP licence from the machine you're replacing and load it yourself...

For a home user with a bit of knowledge, combined with Dell support if you can speak with an Indian accent, and you can get it done. For a business, given the value of time, well worth the upgrade, and they're going to have to pop for a business licence anyway (of course, if you're talking about a large rollout, I'd like you to meet my friend SMS...)

Re:How is this difficult?

[Chiisu]

Not really. I had to setup an XPS laptop and an XPS One. Dumbasses ordered them instead of OptiPlexs, and of course no XP drivers on Dell's website. We got the laptop working, but on the One half the devices are non-functional. But oh well, my boss said we had to use XP, so it's the user's fault.

Re:How is this difficult?

[pixelpusher220]

The whole point of buying from Dell or another company is to *not* do it yourself. if it can be legally done, then Dell should be doing it if customers want it. If Dell doesn't want to do things customers are asking for, well that's just dumb business practice.

Re:How is this difficult?

[hairyfeet]

And this is why having your desktop built by the local PC guy is better. Every machine I build comes with Win2K-Vista 64 drivers,so you can run whatever you want. You don't know how many headaches I've gotten from customers bringing in some cheap laptop or desktop that has Vista and then spending days trying to hunt down the driver only to end up having to inform them they were SOL. If you are buying a laptop ALWAYS make sure you get drivers with it for XP as well as Vista,and for desktops just go to your local PC guy. It'll cost a little more but you'll have it designed to your specs with drivers for XP and Vista. But as always this is my 02c,YMMV

Re:How is this difficult?

[pixelpusher220]

Who is whining? I was simply telling the GP that his experience was legit since the change was made in the last two months.

As for not poking around, it's piss poor customer mgmt to make people jump though hoops to find basic options like what OS to install. I'm not talking about getting a freebie on a special keyboard or upgraded video card, it's the friggin OS.

The whining (from Dell) will commence when starts wondering why it's losing customers. If customers can't find what they want quickly, they won't stick around to see if it's maybe just *hidden* somewhere.

Re:How is this difficult?

[kabocox]

souls are a fiat currency - they have value so long as everyone *believes*.

Just like every other currency system. Though that would mean believers souls are worth more than nonbelievers souls. Nonbelievers souls wouldn't have any associated value to them, while believers souls would have some attached a value. Basically non believers would have a zero or null value soul. The only usage of that I could see would be avoiding/attracting entities that collect what they see as valuable souls. Of course there could always be some entity that collects zero or null value souls just to piss them off.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Hatta]

No, I can't sell what doesn't exist.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Repossessed]

There's a couple problems with that program from Dell, for one, it's only available for business customer's (though any registered business will do), the second, is that Microsoft only includes the downgrade rights on Vista Business/Enterprise/Ultimate, which drives the price of the transaction up, a lot.

If you're willing to self support, or have a vendor that will support you with a swapped OS (Which Dell only does for business customers), it might be easier to find an XP compatible system (and no, not every new system is compatible), and grab a 80 dollar OEM copy of XP home from Newegg.

Re:How is this difficult?

[gravis777]

We have some HPs with that issue - you can get an XP license, but the hardware does not have XP drivers.

Besides, didn't you say your guy wanted something flashy? Vista is certainly that.

I just get kinda pissed off about people who ditch Vista who have never used it, who have only used early betas, or are trying to run it on underpowered systems, or who complain its too different.

Linux gets ditched by people who have never used it, find it complicated, have not used it in years, and who complain that such and such hardware is not supported by Linux. That does not mean its a bad OS.

I am quite happy with Vista. Two years ago, I was dual-booting between XP and Linux. Now, I run Vista Business exclusively. I find it far more stable than XP, when something does bomb out in it, it is usually able to recover without any ill-effects, and in my experience, on newer machines, with both XP and Vista, Vista way outperforms XP.

In fact, in the IT department I work in, we have been so happy with Vista and Office 2007, we started rolling it out to our users back in May. After they get past the first 5 minutes of "oh my gosh, its different", they usually figure out where everything is, and claim that they will never go back to XP and Office 2003. They LOVE it.

Getting back on subject, what do you need to do to get a computer with XP? Should have bought it before June 30th. Its not as if that came as a surprise to anyone. I mean, that was not even three weeks ago.

So, I just did a build your own laptop on Dell's website and do not see an option to get XP. Same is ture on the Business Models Vostro and Latitude. However, on their main page, if you go to Large Business, and then to the Latitude laptops, there is still the option to get XP preinstalled.

HP home laptops all are Vista only, but if you go to Small Business or Large Business, they have the option to order with XP preinstalled. I have ordered business class machines from both HP and Dell before for home users, and have never been asked if we were really a business, so I have not had to "fib" about anything.

At first glance, I do not see a way to order XP at Gateway.

Just suck it up guys. Windows 3.0, 3.1 and 3.11 are dead. 95 is dead. NT is dead. 98 and ME are Dead. 2000 is dead (much to many people's dismay). And now, XP is dead.

BTW, as long as we are trying to get computers with XP preinstalled, perhaps you can also tell me how I can buy an analog TV after February of next year. Let me know where I can find LPs and 8tracks and LaserDiscs, and where I can buy an HD-DVD player.

I mean, sorry to be a butt, but you guys know that the June 30th deadline was coming. If you are a business, you can still get XP through your Microsoft Licensing Agreements.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Collective 0-0009]

I realize we are home users, as well as professional. The reason I gave that guy crap was that I am a "run-of-the-mill" writer, but I don't hang out on pentopaper .com (no idea what that site is) and bitch when professional writers discuss things that don't apply to me or that I don't understand. The OP was relavent, his reply was just dumb.

As to all your questions, yes I am paid to do that. But even if not, most developers don't make hardware decisions, but they probably have an MSDN sub, or can talk to their IT dept and get XP (yes legally).

Re:How is this difficult?

[RenderSeven]

But you do have to pay extra for it

Depends on your point of view. You have to pay more to get a Vista version that is downgrade-able, but you do end up with XP Pro instead of XP Home. If you wanted Home you cant have it at all. If you want Pro, its the same price as always. From a practical standpoint, its 'paying extra' depending on how much you want to hate Dell and Microsoft.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

My brother died that way, you insensitive clod!

Re:How is this difficult?

[eharvill]

Have you tried Z-tweaked, or maybe Guru3d? I have always had a better experience with their drivers than anything Nvidia puts out,and there drivers are hacked to let you run them on pretty much anything. And I know that one of them does put out mobile drivers because I accidently downloaded them once when I was in a hurry.

Am I missing something here? Z-tweaked hasn't released drivers since 10/2006 and Guru3d appears to be a review site...

Re:How is this difficult?

[asylumx]

is that a ray of light at the end of the tunnel?

No. The light at the end of the tunnel has been shut off to conserve energy. Thank you.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Mister Whirly]

You admitted in your post you didn't really look around, you instead went to a local retailer. You then said that was the reason Dell "lost" two computer sales. I'm not saying that it is a bright idea to make people look around very hard for what they want, but was instead suggesting if you don't see something, it sometimes pays to ask. It took me all of about 3 minutes to find a system with XP on the Dell site. That's not exactly "jumping through hoops". I would reasonably expect to look around for at least 5 minutes before deciding to make my purchase elsewhere, but that is just me.
I have about 50 Dell systems I support at my work and have have very little problems with any of them. On the few I have had problems, Dell was out the next day to correct the problem (or sent me the parts so I could replace them myself). I find their support very helpful and accommodating. But I am also talking about their Corporate tech support. Can't make the same statements about their Home user tech support as I don't use it.

Re:How is this difficult?

[ghjm]

I just recently did this on an XPS M1330. All the drivers can be downloaded from Dell. I used nLite to make a Windows XP SP2 install CD with the Dell-provided Intel storage driver preintegrated. After booting this and installing XP, I then installed all the other drivers by double-clicking on them.

I didn't have a Blu-Ray drive to play with, but everything else on the box worked perfectly with the Dell-supplied drivers.

What items did you have trouble with on the M1530? Is it significantly different from the M1330?

-Graham

Re:How is this difficult?

[jonbryce]

I've never had Windows crash since Windows 2000 SP1 came out.

Setting up network printers in Vista is like going back to Windows 3.1 days though.

Re:How is this difficult?

[jonbryce]

You do websites for people? Fix their computers etc? They buy you some beer in return?

If so, you're running a business.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you're serious. You are either very young and very into whining about your disbeliefs, or simply have no sense of humor, and therefore also have no soul :) Either way, lighten up.

Re:How is this difficult?

[philspear]

Please refrain from using 'we' when referring to yourself - unless you are perhaps royalty or an editor, then it is of course your perogative.

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't have needed explaining...

WE ARE NOT AMUSED!

We banish thee back to yon grammarnazi land.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Laurence0]

Does that mean that 2009 will be the year of XP on the desktop? (blah blah, take more than 14 seconds to write your pithy one line reply)

Re:How is this difficult?

[Gilmoure]

I'd trade your soul for a donut.

Re:How is this difficult?

[spywhere]

I order three or four PCs each week for my customers, who are home users.
Each time, I go on Dell's small-business site, and choose a Vostro with "Vista Business Bonus - XP Professional Preinstalled."

They ship it. No problem.

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

Gah. I hope it isn't one of those models that we have. I guess I should have pointed out that it is indeed an XPS laptop, forgot there are XPS desktops..

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

The problem he was having with the machine was something to do with plugging into an external monitor, I can't remember the exact issue right now, but I tried installing new graphics drivers to no avail. I think I tried generic nVidia drivers and some from the Dell website. I remember at one point getting an error along the lines of "this installer needs 32 bit Vista", but that's the flipping OS that was running (yes, I checked under the My Computer equivalent's properties)!

He has a Latitude before that Dell sent out a replacement for because it had weird issues when being connected to a projector (and only a projector, it was fine for external monitors - I didn't realise laptops would actually recognise the difference, especially over a VGA cable rather than a DVI). The problem with one of them was that whenever the laptop was plugged into a projector, the machine would act as if a key was stuck, so that in Outlook the font view size would quickly ramp up to the max, and in Powerpoint the slides just flew by and stuck on the last page. I can't remember if both the latitudes did exactly the same thing, but that's the last 3 Dell laptops this guy has had have had issues with external displays or projectors (he's a sales guy so basically one of the only people in the company who does presentations from his own machine).

Re:How is this difficult?

[Khyber]

Nah, I didn't need any of that since I used to work for HP repairing their laptops, specifically the model I have right now. It wasn't too hard for me to just change up the .INF and add one line of text and numbers to get the drivers to install properly.

Laptopvideo2go is the place to go for mobile video drivers. They provide custom-hacked .INF files and drivers to match.

Really, there's just no reason for this to NOT be included in the .inf. Just disable the Vista-only features and run the damned thing - NVIDIA uses a UNIFIED DRIVER ARCHITECTURE so there's no reason I should have had to hack the .INF file to get the ForceWare installer to install the exact same driver for every other nvidia card on the planet.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Plenty of machines are available for both business AND home users, that are "XP Downgrade". I'm surprised no one here has seen this in action, but an "XP Downgrade" is, in fact, just a computer with XP Pro installed, and a license to upgrade to Vista, if you choose. In other words, you're buying an XP box. And they're plentiful, and available to any type of buyer, no "lying" or hoops-jumping necessary.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Linker3000]

Ah! Soul!

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not, if they look stupid enough they may get elected to public office so you're doing them a favor

Stop replying with logic to morons.

Re:How is this difficult?

[HeronBlademaster]

OEM product keys don't work on standard (non-OEM) install CDs. You need an OEM install CD. OEM install CDs are often tied to particular hardware. There are exceptions but this is the case more often than not.

Sorry, better luck next time.

Re:How is this difficult?

[RockWolf]

What's that policy called again? No Complete Moron Left Behind?

Re:How is this difficult?

[Myrddin Wyllt]

No, I can't sell what doesn't exist.

Doesn't seem to stop Futures traders...

Re:How is this difficult?

[Secrity]

All of the Optiplexes I looked at said "Genuine Windows Vista Downgrade Rights Service (Windows Vista Bonus options)" -- which means XP

Re:How is this difficult?

[CastrTroy]

Which is quite odd, because you can still buy Windows XP OEM edition from TigerDirect. I think the best way to get a computer with XP would be to buy a barebones PC, and then buy an OEM copy of XP to go with it.

Re:How is this difficult?

[mjwx]

Now for a normal home user, this may be different, but I've had no problems at all.

This is why I always tell people to buy from the small business section (Dell doesn't care, they don't check to see if you're actually a business), the business laptops are better quality than the consumer lines if not quiet as pretty (if colour matters that much to them they are beyond my help and deserve what happens to them), in addition to this the support from the business lines of notebooks is so much better than that of the consumer line (no faffing about with some phone monkey going through a script when you can actually diagnose the problem yourself).

Re:How is this difficult?

[Allador]

How so? On my vista box its exactly the same as on XP.

To be a client of a remote network printer .... type \\print-server-machine-name\ in explorer, then double click on the printer. Done. Exactly the same as in XP.

To host a network printer .... Escalate, Printers, Server Properties, Ports, New Port, etc. Install Drivers, turn on sharing. Done. Just like XP, except using Vista's RunAs admin instead of XP's RunAs.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Allador]

the problem with one of them was that whenever the laptop was plugged into a projector, the machine would act as if a key was stuck, so that in Outlook the font view size would quickly ramp up to the max, and in Powerpoint the slides just flew by and stuck on the last page.

That was, unfortunately, a common problem with Latitudes for several years now. I've had it happen on two different generations of Latitude 8x0's.

I seem to remember it being fixed by BIOS or driver updates in both cases.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Allador]

Depends what you mean.

The corporate class machines are often a little bit (ie, ~10%) more expensive than consumer class equipment, but thats money worth paying, due to the difference in quality.

Basically, if you can buy a machine in a physical store, then its garbage and you dont want it. The only equipment worth buying is Dell or HP, or maybe Lenovo for laptops.

For desktops you can also build your own, and you can still buy XP OEM discs for system builders, for a little while longer anyway.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Allador]

Just pick a business class machine (from Dell that means Latitude, OptiPlex and Precision, or Vostro if you really want the consumer level garbage in a business boring case).

You generally want to do that anyway, from any vendor, as the business class stuff is always a step up in quality, longevity, and stability anyway.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Allador]

Thats an extraordinarily odd definition of a 'home user'.

I think you'll find that a large chunk of people on /. are actually professionals in this field, either in general IT support, web, software development, etc. I would say that makes them very distinctly NOT home users.

By your definition, the only way you could not be a home user is if you were posting to slashdot in an official business capacity. Thats a little much.

And I really dont know what this means:

Are you employed to make decisions on hardware purchases (and if you do it obviously shouldn't be used privately)?

Are you really trying to say that if you make purchasing decisions for a business, that you shouldnt use your power of decision making for private purposes? LOL Really?

Re:How is this difficult?

[Allador]

Dell, HP, and Lenovo all make it quite easy to get machines with XP. Trivial in fact, just click the little box.

But keep in mind that by the rules MS hands down, they're technically only supposed to do that for business clients. The reality is though that it means you have to buy a business class machine (ie, from Dell that means latitude, optiplex, and precision (Vostro's are rebadged consumer crap, but qualifies as business too)).

This is a good thing though, because the business class machines are pretty much universally better. Higher quality, less garbage pre-installed, more stable driver images, etc etc.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Lost Engineer]

That is dumb. Optiplexes have kick ass reliability and make hardly any noise. I had one where the heat sink fell off. The user reported it "ran slow" and made a lot of noise. When he replaced the heat sink, the machine continued to function as normal.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Lost Engineer]

Unfortunately home lacks some pretty basic features like "Use a secondary screen on your mobile PC" and "Automagically back up your files." I'd argue home premium is equivalent to XP home, and I wouldn't recommend that anybody get Basic.

Re:How is this difficult?

[LordVader717]

I realise that a relatively large proportion are employed in the IT field, but that does not automatically make them professional/business users. Particularly it depends on the hardware concerned. If a sysadmin makes a decision on buying a new server for work, that certainly makes him a business/professional customer. If later that day he goes home and orders some hardware for a new HTPC / gaming rig he is, in that context, considered a private home-user.
Whether and when he hangs ot on Slashdot is completely irrelevant.

Are you really trying to say that if you make purchasing decisions for a business, that you shouldnt use your power of decision making for private purposes? LOL Really?

No, I was referring to the hardware. If you have decision-making powers over an IT-budget at work, you shouldn't be taking private factors into consideration. I was thinkin more this guy.

And BTW, even if you do pay for it yourself, it often isn't perfectly legal to channel your purchase through your company's IT budget, as there are probably a lot of tax deducted rebates along the line which you don't fulfill.

Re:How is this difficult?

[LordVader717]

Well then Dell makes it easy. A lot of business retailers do actually do backround checks and want some form of proof you own a business before they deal with you.

And I'll repeat what I said in a post below. Even if you do pay for it yourself, it often isn't perfectly legal to channel your purchase through your company's IT budget, as there are probably a lot of tax deducted rebates along the line which you don't fulfill.

Finally, even if a large proportion of /. users are in such a position, that still leaves a lot of users who aren't. A comment pointing that out isn't irrelevant.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Jezza]

My brother died that way, you insensitive clod!

By installing Vista? Wow, and I thought it was painful moving to Hardy Heron...

(I miss that monkey)

Re:How is this difficult?

[ncstockguy]

It's easy to get a PC with XP. Just go buy a nice refurbished model. I haven't purchased a new computer since Vista came out, and will not.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Cha0$Fr33d0m]

> Most readers of slashdot are "normal home users" Sorry, but we are not "normal home users." Read the banner at the top of the screen. News for nerds. If one cannot find the Windows XP option on Dell's website, one has failed the entrance exam for SlashDot. Please read www.yahoo.com instead.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

For further info, Link 1 and link 2. The exact value was USD 3817 at today's exchange rate. Hell will get:

a contract outlining details of the ownership and a signed certificate.

So, yes, a soul does indeed have market value.

Re:How is this difficult?

[AgentSmith]

OK. I know that Vista is one of Microsoft's bigger excrement loads, but I wonder if we aren't collectively shooting ourselves in the foot.

We had this problem when XP first arrived. It was buggy. It had no driver support. Things crashed horribly under it. Give us Win2K!
People finally started using XP and the demand for problem resolution lit a fire under Microsoft's ass to fix things or lose market share.

Now the stakes are higher. When I mention Linux or even Ubuntu to people they know what it is. Linux still scares my supervisor and Department boss to death, but
they know that its an option. Mac OS X is enough of a growing presence at my workplace I got a Macbook to provide user support.

At least I want to know if Vista denial is a conscious choice to kill Microsoft dominance, or fear and uncertainty on the users part with a little stubborness?

One way or another XP is going away. What do you want to fill the empty OS space? If we are still waiting along the XP river bank there are already people in the Vista river.
Best get in the river together lest we are all swept away by the current. Personally, I'd like to be with the Linux and Mac OS crowd that built a boat.

   

Re:How is this difficult?

[IdeaMan]

You get a Vista downgrade CD with it.

Fixed.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Kelbear]

Why do your users "LOVE" it?

I've been using Vista on 2 out of 3 computers for quite some time now but I can't express any excitement over the OS. Nothing really changed for me and my usage so I'm wondering what changed for them?

Re:How is this difficult?

[starflt]

I find your ideas intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Sandbags]

If you have a retail copy of XP, you can just re-use it... If you have an OEM copy, you can't, and thus $50 is a lot cheaper than a full license...

The OEM CD is however NOT tied to the hardware. In some cases, they distribute customized CDs which have more limited cabs files, but that is EASILY fixed by slipstreaming, or better yet, use nLite to do that plus pre-include your drivers, saving you the trouble next time you re-install.

Again, if you have OEM today, you MUST get a new copy. I did NOT suggest using an illegal license. If you're a business, $50, plus natively supported configurations are WELL worth the price (if they don't waive it, which when asked, they usually will, if you're a legitimate business and are buying more than 1 machine, sometimes even for just 1).

Re:How is this difficult?

[Khyber]

It's not a custom graphics chip - nVidia only makes custom chips for console manufacturers. The exact same 8600M GS chip can be found on many other laptop systems not from HP. It's actually pretty obvious nVidia is in collusion with Microsoft to further Vista by attempting to make hardware Vista-Only.

That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

They are so friendly and customer-focused that you have to jump through hoops to get the product that you want. Why do we put up with this shit when we wouldn't accept this from almost any other industry?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[iminplaya]

We accept this from almost every industry. Automobiles, appliances, internet services, telephone service, cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that), and most of all your government. Everybody complains like hell, but they keep on buying the BS.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[philspear]

And almost EVERY industry makes you jump through two annoying hoops to get their product

-You have to signal that you want their product. I'm out of milk. This 2008, can't they tell when I'm out of milk dammit?!?

-You have to give them money for their thing. This is 2008, haven't we turned into a commmunist utopia yet dammit?!?!

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[wild_quinine]

They are so friendly and customer-focused that you have to jump through hoops to get the product that you want. Why do we put up with this shit when we wouldn't accept this from almost any other industry?

An industry related example: Good luck buying a power PC Apple Mac direct from the manufacturer. That's right - even if you ask really nicely, and even if they were still making them less than two years ago. It's an old product, and you can't get it any more.

A car analogy: Good luck buying a Jaguar XJ220 direct from Jag. It's an older model. They don't make them any more.

OK, so with software it's a bit different - 'making' them is as simple as copying the data, insofaras manufacture goes. But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal. If they want to lay old tech to rest, then that's their decision.

Yes, Vista is inferior to XP in many ways. Lots of new products are inferior to old products in many ways. If a company is done with a product, consumers do not have a right to force them to keep supplying it.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[the_humeister]

How did this get modded insightful? Where can I buy a Mac with OS 9? OS 10.2? 10.3? Where can I buy a car without all these side airbags? Where can I buy a cellphone that only makes calls and nothing more?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[danbert8]

The problem with your car analogy is that you can still buy a Jag XJ220 used. It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers. Now if Microsoft were to allow that, it might not be such a big deal.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[iminplaya]

Well, when I'm at a bar, the bartender usually keeps on bringing me more beer when he sees my glass is almost empty until I say "when". I call it "opt out". The system works.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[MarcoG42]

What if huge swathes of industry, government and education rely on your *new* technology to work well, or even properly? There are certain standards that need to be maintained, and this is one instance where a company (one that has admitted their new offering is lacking) should be forced to keep supplying something that "works".

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Hatta]

It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.

The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of. Do you know something I don't?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Hatta]

But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal.

It is? How do you figure?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Collective 0-0009]

You are completely wrong. You can resell retail versions of XP with no problem. Possibly OEM as well. You just can't resell the copy that came with your Dell, as it is marked "not for resell".

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[wild_quinine]

What if huge swathes of industry, government and education rely on your *new* technology to work well, or even properly? There are certain standards that need to be maintained, and this is one instance where a company (one that has admitted their new offering is lacking) should be forced to keep supplying something that "works".

Large enterprise companies on the Campus license will not be affected by the cessation of sale of end user licenses. Small businesses probably do not have the kind of enterprise systems which rely on older versions of Windows. Yes, some people will get caught in the middle. But it's not quite the problem that you make out.

The problem up for discussion is what do you do if YOU want XP on YOUR computer, and the answer is 'deal with it' or 'buy an old computer'.

As an aside, I know of very few large enterprsises, including my own, who have - or intend to - switch to Vist in the forseeable future.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[wild_quinine]

But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal.

It is? How do you figure?

You may not need to offer end user support helplines, sure. But there are many legal requirements that effectively require you to provide some level of 'support' for any product that you are selling, first amongst these is the law that you must provide something which is fit for purpose. If you don't think that this involves any kind of response or feedback from the company, then I don't know what to tell you. Even setting up a department that solely and ONLY deals with refunds would constitute a support nightmare.

If Microsoft don't want the headache then, existing contracts notwithstanding, there's not a lot we can do about it.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Blue Stone]

The fact that an OEM XP CD is marked 'not for resale' doesn't mean anything - as should have been proved by a recent court decision regarding music promo CDs, where the judge ruled that they were a gift and no longer the property of the record companies - who consequently had NO SAY over what was done with them (short of copyright laws and duplication).

If that's the case for gifts, where you've paid money for something, the case for right of resale would be even stronger.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[MarcoG42]

Same here, regarding switching to Vista. I work for the City of NY, and not one agency in the city is making the switch. I still think it's crap that MS would rather sell the giant pile of shit that is Vista to their end users. Now people are going to get Vista, see what a giant turd it is and look for an alterna-- You know what...SELL MORE VISTA! YAY VISTA! VIVA VISTA!

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Toby_Tyke]

it is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP

Seriously?

That might be the case in the US of A ( not sure, as my lack of knowledge regarding US law is surpassed only by my lack of interest in US law), but over here in good old blighty we certainly can resell copies. CEX, a large high street retailer of second hand computer goods, will happily flog you a used copy of XP pro or home. Link

Try not to wince too much at the prices.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[pixelpusher220]

Yeah but do you want 4 grocery sales guys sitting in your kitchen watching you drink milk? ;-)

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[jellomizer]

There is nothing stopping you from starting a competing company that doesn't have those problems. Or you just not purchase those products. Hey you can even setup a movement to get others to boycott such products and you do it well enough it may work. Yes none of those solutions are easy but where does it say Life should be easy, in any counties laws. The fact that taking the BS is so much easier then doing something about it thus it continues.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[tzot]

How did this get modded insightful? Where can I buy a new Mac with OS 9? OS 10.2? 10.3?

Where can I buy a new car without all these side airbags?

Where can I buy a new cellphone that only makes calls and nothing more?

Fixed it for you.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[thpr]

Ironically, you should read the "Computer Software" section of the first sale article. The last paragraph in that section refers to a case where it was not upheld. Then read page 13, lines 12-21 of MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. et al for a reference to three cases, that show examples of the issue of licensed vs. sold software and what rights you may not have under copyright law with licensed software.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that)

Not that I totally agree with the practice, but in defence of the wireless providers, you are using airtime and their network whether the call is incoming or outgoing.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Spy der Mann]

cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that)

Here in Mexico, since a few years ago, it's mandatory that the one who calls, pays.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Spy der Mann]

The problem with your car analogy is that you can still buy a Jag XJ220 used. It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.

What happened to the first-sale doctrine?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Spy der Mann]

However, recently the first sale right was upheld by the court in the Softman v. Adobe case - Softman was the guy who wanted to sell an Adobe Product via e-bay. Technically, they said, if the license is "forever" it can be considered a product being sold.

From http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5628 :

"The Court understands fully why licensing has many advantages for software publishers. However, this preference does not alter the Court's analysis that the substance of the transaction at issue here is a sale and not a license," Judge Pregerson writes. If you put your money down and walked away with a CD, you bought that copy, EULA or no EULA.

More info in the wikipedia entry.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Dracos]

A car analogy: Good luck buying a Jaguar XJ220 direct from Jag. It's an older model. They don't make them any more.

Last I heard (a few years ago now), Jaguar had at least 24 XJ220's in a warehouse, the result of canceled pre-orders based on the prototype car having a V12 engine and all wheel drive. The production version had a turbo V6, rear wheel drive, and a 30% price increase.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Enki X]

As far as I know, the only stipulation is, that you have to stop using the copy of XP that you sold... By the same token, you can't sell a car to someone and continue to use the car you sold.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[dotancohen]

They are so friendly and customer-focused that you have to jump through hoops to get the product that you want. Why do we put up with this shit when we wouldn't accept this from almost any other industry?

Actually, Alienware (a Dell subsidiary) has XP available. For $127 over the price of Vista.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Lumpy]

cripes,. you can buy OEM copies of XP all over the place.

go to newegg.com and buy a oem copy and a mouse.

All done. Why did this even get to slashdot?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[pintpusher]

And so does the other end of the call. And we're both being charged. So... does that mean that I'm really only paying half the cost of a call? I suppose if they went to charging only the originator of the call, then prices would have to double...

It must be nice to deduct two minutes from the ledger for every one minute of system use.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Itninja]

But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal.

A bit OT here, but...what!? The law (at least in the US) makes no requirement I am aware of forcing manufactures to provide any support for anything. The free market does that for them.

You buy an oak coffee table from the local furniture factory, they are not going to give you any 'support'. If you get it home and it falls apart after an hour, you are on your own....unless the factory realizes the value of customer service and chooses to help you out.

There are a few exceptions for life and safety concerns (i.e. airplanes, medical equipment, et al are required to provide support), those are rare.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[dotancohen]

We accept this from almost every industry. Automobiles, appliances, internet services, telephone service, cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that), and most of all your government. Everybody complains like hell, but they keep on buying the BS.

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[thpr]

No doubt - I'm aware of that as well. The interesting point is that a lot of these are Ninth Circuit cases, so a lawyer could have some fun on which is "right" or "controlling". As the first sale Wikipedia article points out, it's an unclear area of the law, and frankly, anyone involved in the details should consult a lawyer.

I was simply responding to the assertion that it's been upheld by "every" court, which isn't the case.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Hatta]

first amongst these is the law that you must provide something which is fit for purpose. If you don't think that this involves any kind of response or feedback from the company, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't think it does.

An implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose is a warranty implied by law that if a seller knows or has reason to know of a particular purpose for which some item is being purchased by the buyer, the seller is guaranteeing that the item is fit for that particular purpose.

The only purpose for XP that Microsoft could know is to install on PCs and run software. It is quite plainly fit for that purpose. Nothing more than a written note indicating that fact is needed.

Even setting up a department that solely and ONLY deals with refunds would constitute a support nightmare.

Don't offer refunds then.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Roberticus]

When I worked QA in a dairy, we put cow's milk in the cartons. What we did not do was arbitrarily switch to putting soy milk in the cartons, and then require customers to call the grocery store and beg to get cow's milk (which would only be allowed if you were a restaurant).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if you have a couple of hundred thousand dollars to defend yourself with. what's legal and what you can do are two different things where I'm from.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[MMC Monster]

So if you buy a computer from Dell with Windows XP installed and a disc for Windows Vista Ultimate (which is basically what you have to do now if you want a Dell WinXP system), can you:

Keep the Windows XP installation and sell the Windows Vista Ultimate to someone else who already has a valid copy of MSWindows (so he can legally upgrade)?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[xaxa]

cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that)

Not that I totally agree with the practice, but in defence of the wireless providers, you are using airtime and their network whether the call is incoming or outgoing.

That's not a good defence.

A better defence is "it costs more to provide the cellphone service, so calls must cost more. The people making calls, with the US numbering system, don't know if they're calling a landline or a cellphone, so it's not fair to charge them. Thus, the recipient of the call pays the extra."

In the UK, all mobile numbers begin with 07, and all normal landline numbers begin with 01, 02 or 03, so it's fair to customers to charge more for calls to mobiles. But, this means you can't move a number from a landline to a mobile (you can forward the calls, but then you're paying for that).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Whyte Panther]

Yes, you are paying one half the cost of the call. The cost your carrier bears. You aren't necessarily on the same carrier as the person who you are speaking with, and in such a case, each carrier gets their piece of the pie. That's why a lot of carriers provide discounts when you call people on the same carrier (well, that and it gives them cheap word of mouth advertising, but that's neither here nor there)

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[lysse]

Good luck buying a Jaguar XJ220 direct from Jag. It's an older model. They don't make them any more.

Well maybe not, but Alesis aren't making any more Fusions either, and yet you can still pick one up fairly easily (and for a song, these days; they're an excellent second or third synth). No manufacturer is going to scrap a pile of old stock just because a new model has come out. And that's before we get into thorny questions like how to even define 'make' and 'stock' wrt software.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[rishistar]

Drinking milk is fine. Montoring toilet paper usage is another matter completely.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[rocketman768]

You obviously didn't read the EULA before clicking "accept" did you?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[TheP4st]

That would make perfect sense. So, probably not.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that

In countries where the callee pays, calls to cell phones cost the same as calls to landlines. In other countries, calls to cell phones are typically very expensive. The network operators can compete on the outbound prices and make the money with inbound calls. Few cell phone owners care how much it costs to call them, because they're not the ones who pay that price. This pricing model causes network ghettoisation, because calls to other cell phone networks are expensive, so people tend to choose the network where their friends are. That raises the barrier for people who want to switch to another network, i.e. it is an impediment to competition. In the EU, the only force which has caused the interconnection fees to go down is government regulation (but calling a cell phone is still ridiculously expensive).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[compro01]

It's still there, but that doesn't stop anyone from suing you for bogus reasons and proceeding to drag out the suit for years until you run out of money to pay your defense lawyer(s).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[alva_edison]

In simplest terms most American Cell Phone plans fall into one of two categories: either pay as you go - where you purchase a specific block of minutes, or a monthly service plan - where you pay a set amount per month up to x number of minutes and then pay any overages. Under both types of categories, time is subtracted for both sending and receiving calls.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[amnezick]

or release it as closed-source freeware clearly specifying in the license that it comes 'as-is'. no support (maybe even no drivers guaranteed). you want xp, you get xp.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[bigstrat2003]

It's true, and it's fucking retarded. We pay to send and receive cell phone calls/text messages. I don't understand how this sits with people as being ok, either, and I'm an American.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[SL Baur]

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that?

I've had both T-Mobile and AT&T/Cingular and after you run out of prepaid minutes, yes you pay for both incoming and outgoing calls. My Cingular contract requires me to pay for incoming SMS text messages as well.

It's "fair" in the sense that nearly all of my usage is to another network (SMART), except that none of the 3g features work in international calls.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[CowTipperGore]

It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.

The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of. Do you know something I don't?

The GP was incorrect in that it generally is not illegal to resell XP or other software. However, that is a bit misleading because most Windows licenses cannot be reused due to the terms of OEM OS licenses. The license is valid only on the computer with which it was sold so you're limited to selling only the boxed retail copies of Windows. Additionally, when the marketplace ignores the right of first sale (as eBay does), it make it difficult to sell the product even if you have the legal right to do so.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?

Yes, it's true, and it's commonly accepted. The reason is a bit long.

Historically, cell phone service cost quite a bit more to provide than landline service, so someone has to pay more when a cell phone is part of a call.

Most of the world has taken the view that the caller should pay more when calling a cell phone, and that the cell phone recipient shouldn't pay for the call.

In the USA, people have long been used to making unlimited local calls on landlines.

Unlike many countries, cell phones in the USA (and Canada) do not have a reserved numbering scheme where the phone number clearly identifies that this number is a cell phone.

It was tried to have a reserved numbering scheme to identify cell phones and charge the caller more for calling a cell phone. The market overwhelmingly rejected it. People said, "You want me to pay more to call you on your cell phone? Get a real phone you piece of [censored] yuppie!" and refused to call. For market acceptance, the caller could not be charged extra to call a cell phone.

So, the only other person to charge for the call was the cell phone owner.

So, US cellphone ownwers pay to make & receive calls. On the other hand, it doesn't cost more to call a cellphone instead of a landline, and it usually costs less to make an outgoing call from a cell phone.

Frankly, many of you non-USians are getting screwed on calls. I once called my friend on her mobile in Sydney, Australia. My call had to cross the entire Pacific ocean, but I still paid less to talk to her than her mother (located in Sydney, Australia) does to call her on her mobile. Why? Competition and not having to deal with the local oligopoly.

Further, cellphone calls are getting very cheap in the US. Many carriers have unlimited plans for $100 USD or less - unlimited incoming & outgoing local calls, domestic long distance, data, and SMS.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[CowTipperGore]

The fact that an OEM XP CD is marked 'not for resale' doesn't mean anything - as should have been proved by a recent court decision regarding music promo CDs, where the judge ruled that they were a gift and no longer the property of the record companies - who consequently had NO SAY over what was done with them (short of copyright laws and duplication). If that's the case for gifts, where you've paid money for something, the case for right of resale would be even stronger.

The problem is that the buyer cannot legally use the product. The license agreement limits the use of OEM Windows to the hardware on which it was purchased.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, you can do it, I did it.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[nine-times]

OK, so with software it's a bit different - 'making' them is as simple as copying the data, insofaras manufacture goes. But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal. If they want to lay old tech to rest, then that's their decision.

You make a good point, but it seems like software is a particular place. Like you said, it takes nothing for them to "make" new copies. Also, nothing in particular is keeping me from building my own duplicate PPC Mac for my own personal use, provided I have the materials and expertise. But with software, the materials and expertise are respectively "hard drive space" and "the ability to operate a mouse". But, on the other hand, there's copyright legally preventing me from doing that.

But there's also a greater need to continue to use an older version of software than an older version of a car. Consumers might have a lot tied up with old software. In the case of an operating system, they might have old applications that won't work on newer operating systems, old hardware that isn't supported by anything else, old data files that aren't supported by anything but those old applications, etc.

Personally, I kind of feel like there should be *something* to protect consumers in that sense. I'm not sure how you would craft a law that would be fair to everyone, but it seems reasonable to me that, if Microsoft doesn't feel like there's any money left to be made selling/supporting Windows XP, maybe they should be forced at some point to release the thing to the public domain? I know this is a radical suggestion, but sometimes it seems reasonable to me that, at the very least, companies should lose the copyright to abandonware. You aren't marketing it, you aren't distributing it, you aren't making money off of it, so go ahead and let people have it. After all, copyrights aren't a god-given right, they're a concession made by the government for the purpose of encouraging innovation, and thereby promoting the common good.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Solandri]

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?

The vast majority of American phone plans are a flat rate for a fixed number of minutes, not a per-minute charge. For home phone service, it's usually a flat rate for an unlimited number of minutes (some plans even give unlimited long distance). Apparently, given a choice, people prefer paying the same amount every month instead of a variable amount depending on the calls they make and take. So a "caller pays" system doesn't work since someone with unlimited home service could call 24/7 to someone with a cell phone.

It's one of those "fairness vs. simplicity" things, like no-fault insurance. In this case, simplicity won out. On the flip side, Americans don't need to keep track of which numbers are home or mobile (because calling them costs the same), and we're free to port our home phone number to our cell phone or vice versa when changing service.

Another contributing factor is probably due to cell phones being invented in the U.S. Way back when they were new and phone calls cost like $5/min, there was a "rich bastard" stigma associated with them. The feeling was that if some rich bastard wanted to flaunt his wealth by walking around talking on a cell phone, he damn well better be the one paying for those minutes, not the person who might call him.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Digital Vomit]

We keep on buying the BS because we have no choice. This is because businesses in almost every industry can subvert the free market with their magic wand known as Intellectual Property.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[initdeep]

And this is Dell's fault why?

It's not like Dell came out with the new OS.

What if I want to buy my Mac preloaded with an older OS a month after the new one comes out?
Can I? (I honestly don't know here some someone can let me know).

What if I want to buy my EEE with a different older version of Xandros?
Can I?

I fail to see how this is the fault of the OEM, Dell or otherwise.

I also fail to see how it is a problem at all.

If i want to buy a deprecated model of car, can I?

Yes, it's called buying it used.

The difference here is I might be able to buy the new system and downgrade it myself if I like.

I can't really do that with a car (not easily anyway).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[kb0hae]

"If a company is done with a product, consumers do not have a right to force them to keep supplying it." I Disagree. We DO have the right to demand the products we want. With the features we want. If we don't get them, we should vote with our wallets. I have done so for many years now. If enough of us did, we would get the products we want, or the companies involved would go broke.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[initdeep]

pointless analogy.

What if you instead were putting cow's milk in a carton, and a newer breed of cow came out and you instead started putting that breed of cow's milk inside the carton instead.

nothing would have changed to the packaging and teh users would have no recourse except switching products to get the "old milk"

it also points out something I see every day.

Most of the end users really don't care.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

That was done to prevent extortion by the mail system. It's so you can't send someone something that's a "gift", but requires them to send it back to you or something. You can't mail someone a package and demand they return it at their expense, or any other requirements.

Unsolicited things are different than solicited ones. I have no idea what the actual ruling is in this case, but it's a different thing, and the legal ruling might vary.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[omnichad]

You have one license. Whether it's used for XP or Vista doesn't matter. Sure, you can sell the CD - as long as you don't provide the product key.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[initdeep]

Technically no.

Because you didnt buy XP
You bought Vista, and as part of the Vista lisc you were given the XP as a downgrade only lisc.

so you cannot LEGALLY sell either of them.

This is, pf course, also regardless of the OEM lisc which says the copies of Windows are only valid for the computer they came shipped with.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[initdeep]

you can, but it's not legal.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[kb0hae]

Well, you are both wrong. If you have opened the retail package, or used the software on the computer it was pre-installed on, you automatically agreed to the terms of the license. The license states that you must purchase a new copy for each computer, and that the license is non transferable. I believe that such licensing practices are wrong and should be illegal. This does not alter the fact that if you agreed to the terms of the license, you are bound by it. So while you can sell an un-opened retail copy, you cannot legally sell an OEM copy, nor can you legally sell a retail copy after opening the box. Doesn't anyone pay any attention to the license agreement, or the sticker on the box that states "by breaking this seal, you agree to the terms of the license"?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[KGIII]

You don't have to if you don't want to probably. I have been using their nationwide service for a long time and have their unlimited data plan as well. It isn't even that expensive really and, the point really, the incoming calls are all free.

I didn't incur any odd charges when I used the phone from Canada but I understand that if you cross the pond or go to Mexico you'll get whacked with some hefty bills though I think they have a plan to cover that.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[bigstrat2003]

Unfortunately, I live in Appleton, WI, which is pretty poor in terms of technology level. Really nice city/area (the cost of living is insanely low), but you can't get anything cool out here (like FiOS!), or anything but the big, big cell phone providers.

So yeah, I'm stuck. :/

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Medievalist]

There is nothing stopping you from starting a competing company that doesn't have those problems.

Bwahahahahahahahah! Nothing except a shortage of the multiple millions of dollars that would be required, the ability to swindle bankers and/or investors, and the desire to have a comfy bed with no horses' heads in it! Just those small trifles keep stopping me from ruling the world...

Or you just not purchase those products. Hey you can even setup a movement to get others to boycott such products and you do it well enough it may work. Yes none of those solutions are easy but where does it say Life should be easy, in any counties laws. The fact that taking the BS is so much easier then doing something about it thus it continues.

Now you're talking, brother. Testify! If you don't like the producer, don't use the product. Hallelujah!

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Medievalist]

The problem with your car analogy is that you can still buy a Jag XJ220 used. It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.

What happened to the first-sale doctrine?

They blew it off by simply claiming you have only been sold a "license to use the product" - you are renting access, not buying software, first-sale doesn't apply.

They also claim you agreed to this nonsense in the EULA when you popped the shrink-wrap on your CD or unboxed your OEM system.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[prockcore]

What if I want to buy my Mac preloaded with an older OS a month after the new one comes out?

You can, but it's very difficult. We can't use Leopard because the version of Quark we use doesn't work on Leopard. Our integrator provides new macs running Tiger, but that well is about to dry up. Now we're looking at spending thousands of dollars to upgrade Quark on hundreds of machines.

IT is very grouchy lately.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[OldeTimeGeek]

You're new here, aren't you?

Yes, Americans pay for both making and receiving calls and texts. We've discussed this here ad nauseum...

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get US Cellular, they don't charge for incoming calls and have great coverage throughout the state.

(No, I'm not affiliated with US Cellular in any way except that I'm a satisfied customer who also happens to live in WI. Posting AC because I've already moderated.)

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

No?

But my grocery started selling Milk from cows treated with hormones - arbitrarily.

Not all grocers did this, and I bought my milk elsewhere. Eventually my grocer took notice and offered the option; hormones or not.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[larry bagina]

It's not just a CD, it's also the (licensed) software on it. When an OEM buys an OEM Windows CD, they're also agreeing to restrictions on its use (and resale).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[George Beech]

No, because you are buying a copy of Windows Vista Ultimate. That license is valid for XP, 2000, 98, etc as well - Downgrade Rights. It is still just 1 license, so you can't use both XP and Vista at the same time, and if you sell the Vista License you have to stop using the copy of XP as the licenses for that are also gone with the sale of the Vista License. Also note that you cannot resell OEM licenses, they are locked to the hardware.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[iminplaya]

...newer breed of cow...

In that case, it's being forced to buy milk full of growth hormones. Or genetically modified foods. All brought to you without proper labeling. But you're right. Most people don't care, as long as it's convenient.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[merreborn]

But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal.

Really? What happened to selling things "as is"? What happened to the disclaimers that ship with lots of software? ("There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE"). Are the guys at OSDisc required to provide support for the linux distros they sell?

Yes, Vista is inferior to XP in many ways. Lots of new products are inferior to old products in many ways. If a company is done with a product, consumers do not have a right to force them to keep supplying it.

You're right, we have no right to force them to, but we have every right to let them know, loudly and publicly, that we really, really want them to.

It's not a matter of "We'll make whatever we damn well please, and you'll buy it because we tell you to". In a functioning market, producers respond to consumer demand. And consumers are demanding something other than vista.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[TheLink]

"it costs more to provide the cellphone service, so calls must cost more"

Well nowadays that does not appear to be true anymore.

Seems like in the developing nations it is cheaper to set up cellphone service than pull copper (that'll probably get stolen the next day. The new face of copper mining - "Oh was that yours? It's mine now" ;) ).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[poot_rootbeer]

If a company is done with a product, consumers do not have a right to force them to keep supplying it.

Reasonable companies normally don't decide they are "done with" products for which there is still high consumer demand.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Our studies show the average person spills an ounce of milk per gallon. If we make the packaging slightly harder to use the end user will spill more milk and consequently be forced to buy more milk.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's the case for gifts, where you've paid money for something, the case for right of resale would be even stronger.

No, it is actually weaker. There can be all sorts of limitations on a purchase because you have established a contractual relationship with the supplier. For shit that shows up at your door without your consent, your request, or whatnot, then you can have a field day with it.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Taibhsear]

I don't accept it and I don't keep buying the BS. My cell plan is free incoming everything. I have no home telephone service (because I have a cell phone...). My automobile was a flat cost with pretty much everything standard. (only bullshit I deal with is the fact that I'm not allowed to read the cause for the CEL for some reason unless I pay about $3000 for a device to do so) I don't have appliances to buy (yet). I do have to put up with ISP bullshit, but that's just because they have a damned monopoly. If there was competition I wouldn't buy their BS either. /anecdote

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Translation Error]

In almost every industry, companies come out with a new model of their product, and after a while you can't easily get the old model from them. Cars, computer equipment, home appliances, publishing, furniture/fixtures, etc.

You want a Laserjet 4000? Sorry, we don't make that any more.
We're sorry you don't like the changes in the '09 Mustang, but there were very good reasons for making them.
I'm sorry, that edition is out of print, but the new movie tie-in edition with pictures from the movie is available!
Ah, that model now has a 45 degree angle for the spout. Most people prefer it that way.
I'm sorry, but that model is discontinued. The new model has a built-in ice cube maker, though. What? Oh, I'm sure it's just as reliable as the old one.
Now with an improved formula/recipe!

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[arbitraryaardvark]

And almost EVERY industry makes you jump through two annoying hoops to get their product

-You have to signal that you want their product. I'm out of milk. This 2008, can't they tell when I'm out of milk dammit?!?

When i was a kid in the suburbs, circa 1968, Harry the milkman would stop by about once a week and automagically refill the milk. Give it about 20 years and technology will catch up to 1968.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[dotancohen]

You're new here, aren't you?

Yes, Americans pay for both making and receiving calls and texts. We've discussed this here ad nauseum...

No, that's this guy. I have seen mention before, but somehow it didn't quite sink in as deep as it should have.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[sulfur]

From Wikipedia:

The Court also found that SoftMan had not infringed on the EULA (even if it had been upheld) because SoftMan had never run the program.

This implies that you could only resell the software if you have never used it. However, what if I wanted to format my hard drive and sell my Windows XP (retail) CD with the appropriate product key? I am pretty sure it would be illegal, thus you cannot really sell "used" software.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[kwabbles]

Because slashdot is becoming the new digg.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Jerry Smith]

In the Netherlands all mobile numbers start with 06. Why not in the US?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Try putting your old Windows XP disk and key up for sale on eBay and see how far you get. Or better yet, the "sticker" key from the outside of your old Dell box.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[deltaromeo]

OK, so with software it's a bit different - 'making' them is as simple as copying the data, insofaras manufacture goes.

thatsverywellsaid

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[HeronBlademaster]

If you get a home delivery service like Winder Dairy you just get milk twice a week, you don't have to tell anyone. Just make sure you tell them how much milk you drink when you sign up so you're not swamped or dry ;)

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, dude...

2000 minutes + 600 text messages + unlimited data 2M/3g is 110 dollars.

25 hours of talk + unlimited data 2M/3g is 80 usd.

400 minutes of talk + 100 SMS + unlimited data 384/3g for 50 usd.

Or what I use. 12 cents per minute of talk / SMS, no paying for incoming stuff, unlimited data 384/3g. 19 dollars.

I think it's you getting screwed on that. Even with the massive users, because all US plans have "reasonable use" limitations.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't bend over. I am still (and will continue to) use the fraudulent, stolen, cracked, ripped, patched and pirated copy of XP I've been using for 3 years. I have a newer pirated copy ready to go when MS finally manages to REALLY disable this one. I f@#$ing HATE being forced, cajoled or dominated into compliance! What I do with MY-yes MY computer is MY business. The milk analogy above is art.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

You all are nuts to swallow that

I'm voting with my wallet and have never owned a cell phone. I've even voiced my opinion when being offered to sign up for a cell phone service. But they still haven't brought out a plan where receiving calls is free.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Eil]

The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of.

You might want to remind Microsoft's lawyers, then.

A while back, I tried selling some broken laptops that came with legal OEM Win2k certificates of authenticity. My mistake was including the COA in a picture of one of the laptops. On the last day of the auction, the listings were cancelled by eBay. A week later I get 3 copies of a DMCA letter from Microsoft telling me that only authorized distributors can legally sell Microsoft products and that I, in particular, am not one of those. (The letter also vaguely hinted that I better not be up to some software piracy scheme.)

I would have liked to have the money to challenge this in a legal setting, because it would have been quite a fun time explaning to the court how ridiculous the premise is. Thousands of computers (new and used) are sold daily on eBay (let alone other "non-authorized distributors") with Windows on them, but try to sell one broken laptop with a COA and Microsoft sends all kinds of lawyer-generated legal nonsense at you.

Even though I've been an open source advocate for some time, until this incident I had always given Microsoft the benefit of the doubt. That they weren't really all that bad, just unusually incompetent and maybe a bit greedy with a touch of power-hungry. Now I'm fully convinced that there is some kind of rotten fucking evil permeating that organization.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Every single one of your analogies fails simply due to the fact that manufacturing further copies of a physical product requires that the factories are still dedicated to making them. When a new model is manufactured, the factory needs to be re-configured for it. There is limited manufacturing capacity.

This does not apply to software. Producing additional copies is completely trivial (see software piracy), and refusing to sell something is purely a matter of policy rather than manufacturing limitations.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Lost Engineer]

Is it cheaper without hormones?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[mjwx]

Well, when I'm at a bar, the bartender usually keeps on bringing me more beer when he sees my glass is almost empty until I say "when". I call it "opt out". The system works.

Sometimes when I'm sitting at the bar with an empty glass I turn around to find a girl coming at me with a beer bottle

Then asking for seven bucks fifty.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

True but to legally buy an OEM version you gotta buy some other hardware with it. I'm starting to get a huge pile of thumbdrives.

Also, does anyone know if you get a refund for Vista if you click "NO" to the EULA?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

For home phone service, it's usually a flat rate for an unlimited number of minutes (some plans even give unlimited long distance). Apparently, given a choice, people prefer paying the same amount every month instead of a variable amount depending on the calls they make and take.

Actually, the phone industry prefers it too. The biggest single expense in the phone business is itemizing & billing - keeping track of every call and making sure it's in the right price category. If you go to a flat rate system, the overhead drops quite a bit. Some people will take advantage of flat rate unlimited service, but on average it works out well.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

The promo CD ruling was for unsolicated gifts.

"If that's the case for gifts, where you've paid money for something, the case for right of resale would be even stronger."

Not really, because you can argue over what you actually paid for. Microsoft will argue that you paid for a license to use the software on one PC.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

"Another contributing factor is probably due to cell phones being invented in the U.S."

BullShit.

Cell Phones were invented by the swedish company Ericsson as a contract job to provide telephony services for SaudiArabia.

After that, a modified version called NMT450 was introduced commercially in scandinavia and balticum. More of Europe followed afterwards.

US and motorola was very late to adopt to cellphones and only started building cellphones when the third generation of technology was used in europe, NMT900.

After this came the digital GSM system that also ran initially on the 900 band. This is when the US started deploying cellphones, though they decided to implement some semi-broken-by-design CDMA crap when the rest of the world had already switched to proper digital GSM.

You fail.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

The lateness to start deploying and that the US was the last continent to start using cell-phones way after all other continents had already started to develop a mature ecology of services is likely a contributing reason why the US cellphone networks are so sub-optimal in service and function compared to the more developed cell-phone world.

I still remember laughing at those weird brick/suitcase-sized phones the cool guy miami vice used when I had already been using a much much smaller portable phone, that fit in a pocket!, for many years.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Solandri]

"Another contributing factor is probably due to cell phones being invented in the U.S."

BullShit.

Cell Phones were invented by the swedish company Ericsson as a contract job to provide telephony services for SaudiArabia.

After that, a modified version called NMT450 was introduced commercially in scandinavia and balticum. More of Europe followed afterwards.

Wireless telephones were invented in the U.S in 1908.

The concept of cells and handoffs between cells were also invented in the U.S. by AT&T / Bell Labs in 1947 and 1971 respectively.

The first commercial cell phone network was rolled out in Chicago in 1978 using AMPS (albeit as a trial - full commercial service didn't begin until 1983). Japan was next in 1979. NMT didn't show up until 1981. There appears to have been an earlier cell-based wireless phone system in Finland in 1971, but it didn't have seamless handoffs between cells. I consider handoffs a requirement to qualify as a "cell phone" - if you say handoffs aren't required, then the first mobile phones date to the 1950s.

US and motorola was very late to adopt to cellphones and only started building cellphones when the third generation of technology was used in europe, NMT900.

After this came the digital GSM system that also ran initially on the 900 band. This is when the US started deploying cellphones,

Actually, Motorola made the world's first hand-holdable cell phone in 1973, based on what eventually became AMPS. And as I explained above the U.S. was at the forefront of analog cell phone development. Where the U.S. fell behind was during the switch from analog to digital. The analog network was so built-up and entrenched in the U.S. that there was considerable resistance and lack of frequencies to switch to digital. Japan and Europe, with denser population centers serviceable by fewer digital cells, made the switch to digital first.

though they decided to implement some semi-broken-by-design CDMA crap when the rest of the world had already switched to proper digital GSM.

CDMA has some important bandwidth advantages over TDMA (which GSM is based on). With TDMA (time division multiple access), each operating phone gets a timeslice and so eats up a fixed slice of bandwidth regardless of whether it's transmitting voice or silence. With CDMA (code division multiple access), the orthogonality is in the codes, not in timeslices or frequency, so the phone only uses bandwidth if it's transmitting voice. This gave CDMA enough of an advantage that in the U.S. they (Verizon, Sprint) easily beat out the TDMA networks (AT&T, T-Mobile). This is also why CDMA networks in the U.S. and Japan were able to roll out 3G data speeds years before the GSM networks. The CDMA networks could just transmit data the same way they did voice. The GSM/TDMA networks had to design an entirely new transmission system (HSDPA) to get around the bandwidth limitations.

It's enough of an advantage that UMTS (3GPP or 3GSM), the European successor to GSM, is based on wideband CDMA. So eventually all the GSM networks will be using CDMA. If fact, if your GSM phone has HSDPA, you're already using CDMA for data.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[MrKaos]

I had always given Microsoft the benefit of the doubt. That they weren't really all that bad, just unusually incompetent and maybe a bit greedy with a touch of power-hungry. Now I'm fully convinced that there is some kind of rotten fucking evil permeating that organization.

I went through this transition, now comes the powerlessness associated with knowing there is little you can do stop them, none of your friends will even understand this - of course, where you can you try to fight the man, the man will eventually bludgeon you into submission.

The sad reality is that the market will slowly be corralled into accepting Vista and all the requisite DRM baggage that it carries. The key here is that the frog is heated very slowly in the pot and the market will accept, like sheep, what is fed to them. Of course the ardent Microsoft supporters will say Vista ain't so bad, and sure their products are nice to work with, but they are also a nightmare of interoperability when you try and work with anything else.

I don't want to encourage purchase of their products because when you dig deeper into the behavior of Microsoft the 'evil' conclusion is consistently reinforced. A corporation has the same legal rights as an individual in society it begs the question "What sort of individual is Microsoft", I found this and made the comparison.

HOW TO SPOT A PSYCHOPATH - 5 WAYS TO AVOID HIRING PSYCHOPATHS COPYRIGHT 2008 MICHAEL MERCER, PH.D.

1. Pre-Employment Tests - especially certain test scores

From my research on pre-employment tests, there are specific test scores that may indicate a job applicant is a psychopath. Specifically, psychopaths may get low or high scores on certain measures/scales in pre-employment tests:

* low scores on two measures - (a) Truthfulness and (b) Following Rules

Check , Check

* high scores on two measures - (a) Aggressiveness and (b) Power Motivation

Check, Check

Lesson: Be cautious with job applicants who get such scores on pre-employment tests.

2. Job Interviews

If you suspect a job applicant may be a psychopath, then you can ask questions to elicit answers revealing if the applicant threatens or intimidates people. Reason: Psychopaths get a huge thrill from intimidating through (a) real or implied threats, (b) verbal hostility, and (c) manipulation.

threats, hostility, manipulation, manipulation, manipulation.

3. Reference Checks

Call the job applicant's ex-bosses at home, and ask for a "personal reference." Obtain specific examples of how the applicant "handled difficulties and friction with other employees." Listen for warning signs of threats, intimidation, anger, or ridicule.

intimidation, anger,

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[IdeaMan]

No.
It's more like you a put a child-proof cap on the new carton (UAC), narrowed the opening so much that it takes a lot longer for them to pour the milk out (poorer performance), added an LCD display to the carton (Aero), and upped the price, then refused to revert to the old packaging because you said the new packaging was "better". Oh and besides all that you own all the cows, and use a secret process to extract the milk and no-one can get the milk to taste the same without you suing them out of existence (monopoly).
Am I missing anything?
Oh yeah, you penalize anyone that sells any other kind of milk by pricing the milk much higher if they do (illegal anti-competitive business practices).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[stephanruby]

It was tried to have a reserved numbering scheme to identify cell phones and charge the caller more for calling a cell phone. The market overwhelmingly rejected it.

No, it wasn't tried (unless you're speaking of 900 numbers). And no, the market didn't reject it, it was the Congress that did. I remember this specifically. At the time the US law passed, the only person I knew who had a cell phone was a Consul from a European Country, and his cell phone was a phone handle connected to a heavy briefcase with an antenna (and no, that phone wasn't even a satellite phone, it used cell towers, that Consul lived and worked in San Francisco).

People said, "You want me to pay more to call you on your cell phone? Get a real phone you piece of [censored] yuppie!" and refused to call. For market acceptance, the caller could not be charged extra to call a cell phone.

Like I said, this is completely false, and it's even missing one key insight.

In Europe, in the UK specifically since that's the example I'm most familiar with, all the poor people had cell phones. And cell phones didn't gain wide acceptance just because landlines were crappy and difficult to get (although that's certainly true), cell phones gained wide acceptance because they were almost completely subsidized by this pay-extra-to-call-a-cell-phone scheme. So in the UK, if an inmate was released out of prison, or if a bum needed a phone, they could get themselves such a phone at little to no cost, because all the true cost of the phone would be paid by the people calling it.

Most of the world has taken the view that the caller should pay more when calling a cell phone, and that the cell phone recipient shouldn't pay for the call.

Not true, I have a family member in the UK. He has two cell phones. He has one cell phone number he gives out to everyone, his creditors, marketers, strangers, etc. He has one cell phone number he gives out only to a few select people. Of course, his second cell phone is much more expensive for him personally, because he has to bear its true cost -- but basically people have a choice.

So I would say that the rest of the World has taken the view to allow both schemes and just let the market decide. The US on the other hand, has remarkably been controlling in that respect. And that's the one of the reasons the US has been so far behind in wide-scale cell phone adoption.

Frankly, many of you non-USians are getting screwed on calls. I once called my friend on her mobile in Sydney, Australia. My call had to cross the entire Pacific ocean, but I still paid less to talk to her than her mother (located in Sydney, Australia) does to call her on her mobile. Why? Competition and not having to deal with the local oligopoly.

That's true, but this has nothing to do with cell phones specifically.

Further, cellphone calls are getting very cheap in the US. Many carriers have unlimited plans for $100 USD or less - unlimited incoming & outgoing local calls, domestic long distance, data, and SMS.

When it comes to mobile phones, the US is still five to ten years behind Europe and Asia in terms of price and number of options available.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Hatta]

If you really do the analysis, you'll find that *all* corporations are psychopaths. The government too.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[vuffi_raa]

well, one thing concerning laptops that is a pain around all of this, that I have had to deal with is hardware drivers for xp- a lot of the newer laptops do not contain xp drivers, only vista compatible drivers and when xp is installed you have to spend hours trying component manufacturer and third party drivers to make the thing work right- so yes, you can just pop xp on the machine, but it only half works without the drivers.

Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

A time machine.

Obvious answer?

[neokushan]

An Internet connection.

Re:Obvious answer?

[UnknowingFool]

To get the answer in this case, a more powerful web server too. :P

Re:Obvious answer?

[LSD-OBS]

Indeed :)

I feel absolutely nothing about installing a pirated copy of XP SP3 on any new hardware. In fact, I fully expect Microsoft's lawyers to contact me asking for a list of all the hardware I've bought recently with Vista OEM on, so that they can give me a price difference refund for "downgrading".

Re:Obvious answer?

[geogob]

Which wouldn't help much if you are buying your first computer. Most likely not a frequent problem, but still could be a turn off.

Re:Obvious answer?

[neokushan]

If you're buying your first computer, are you really going to know the difference between XP and Vista? Are you really going to MISS XP enough to want it that much?

Re:Obvious answer?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you really know the differnce between XP and Ubunutu?

Re:Obvious answer?

[IdeaMan]

I dunno about you, but I miss 3.1.
I don't miss the crashes, but the UI on 3.1 was consistent and not being reinvented every time I turn around.
It takes me about 10 minutes to convert my XP back to looking like 3. (Old style start menu, don't hide buttons, turn off fade effects, etc etc etc)

With XP? How about without Windows?

[aztektum]

I have been looking at ordering a new laptop. I have been considering the Lenovo IdeaPad Y510 with the 256MB nVidia graphics card. My plan is to wipe it and use Ubuntu (according to ubuntuforums.org the Y510 is nicely compatible out of the box.) I'd rather not pay the Windows tax.

Anyone know if I talk to Lenovo I can get them to sell me the laptop without Windows?

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Make your own laptop.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[Scotteh]

It'd be great if some laptops were sold with a blank harddrive. If someone wants Windows, chances are they'll take Vista. If someone wants Linux, chances are they won't want the distribution that is preloaded on the laptop. If I wanted to buy a Linux laptop, I'd rather it be blank so that I could set it up the way I want it.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[xzvf]

They sell most of the T series with Suse 10 and it works very well with Ubuntu and Fedora. Most likely with the Y series you'll have to buy it with Vista and then ask for a refund. I don't work for Lenovo, but I suspect they get some revenue (or advertising kickback) from the "Lenovo recommends MS Vista Business" tags they have on their sites. I once had the Lenovo site give me the option of purchasing a laptop with DOS for only $4995 extra. Wish I did a screen capture of that page.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[thatskinnyguy]

I was able to get 16 Y510s from TigerDirect without an OS on them. Of course, that was the corporate account and I think they were sold out of them the last time I checked. They work beautifully with Ubuntu right out of the box!

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[aztektum]

You know I thought about that. I looked at a bunch of barebones systems, processor and RAM prices, hard drive prices... but I couldn't get one configured the same for 800 bucks. Plus I can't say for sure the ones I looked at were as compatible with Linux as the IdeaPad seems to be (I could probably Google but there goes more time). Also the fact that if there are any issues with a particular part, I have to disassemble the entire thing to deal with that one part and the likelihood of dealing with more than one vendor is not something I want to spend my time with either.

I realize this is /. and there is the geeky DIY thing, but the question was anyone have any experience buying a LENOVO without Windows.

Thanks for playing though.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[magarity]

It'd be great if some laptops were sold with a blank harddrive
 
You mean, "Isn't it great that plenty of laptops are sold with blank hard drives." Go to pricewatch.com and check the 'laptops, no OS' section or google for 'laptop barebones'. They'll all be the original brands, Clevo, Compal, Asus, etc, and not the reseller brands, Sony, Dell, HP, etc. But it'll be the same thing and cost less. What you get with the big names is 1: a support phone line, 2: the exact same laptop with a brand name sticker strangers will respect you for being able to afford and, of course 3: Windows.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[lophophore]

I bought a T81 from Lenovo with SuSe Linux 10 on it; no windows tax. That was direct from Lenovo.com

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[SL Baur]

It'd be great if some laptops were sold with a blank harddrive. If someone wants Windows, chances are they'll take Vista. If someone wants Linux, chances are they won't want the distribution that is preloaded on the laptop.

Octagon in Manila had a pretty fair inventory the last time I was there. They offered machines with Linux (unspecified distro), Microsoft (XP or Vista), or no O/S fairly evenly distributed 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3.

The main reason you should want _something_ installed on a notebook is that the only O/S that's really guaranteed to work on it is whatever it came preinstalled with. It's a crazy market - the hardware changes so fast. In the case of a Linuxn preinstall, you can at least use the preinstall to torrent in the distro of your choice.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Getting a Lenovo machine without Windows is easy. I just bought a T61. It came with SuSE Linux pre-installed. No Windows at all, not even in a recovery partition. The wireless and video card are both made by Intel and are both supported under Linux.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you looked at their T-Series notebooks? Some of those come preloaded with SUSE Linux.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[dotancohen]

Anyone know if I talk to Lenovo I can get them to sell me the laptop without Windows?

Ask them:
http://www.lenovo.com/contact/us/en/
1-866-96-THINK

If they do, they'll tell you. If they don't, then they need to hear it from us that we want to be able to buy systems without the MS tax. If we don't ask, they will never know that's what we want.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[glitch23]

What you get with the big names is 1: a support phone line, 2: the exact same laptop with a brand name sticker strangers will respect you for being able to afford and, of course 3: Windows.

4: A bunch of software you don't want and 5: a recovery CD instead of a real Windows CD which happens to put the aforementioned software back on your computer when you restore it to factory settings when all you want is to fix the OS.

Torrent

[courteaudotbiz]

1. Buy a PC
2. Download Windows XP through your favorite Torrent site
3. Install Windows XP
4. Enjoy...

Re:Torrent

[Scotteh]

And also enjoy not being able to use Windows Update to get the lovely updates that makes Windows semi-safe.

Re:Torrent

[courteaudotbiz]

Don't know what an antivirus and firewall are? A good Linux firewall does a great job hiding that you're shamefully using an unlicensed version of Windows XP...

Re:Torrent

[LiquidCoooled]

technically, don't you just "rectify" the issue by purchasing a license from microsoft when they tell you its dodgy?

Re:Torrent

[courteaudotbiz]

Will they still sell XP licenses through their WGA program??? This could be a great solution!

Re:Torrent

[iminplaya]

Well, if you would stop driving on a road covered with nails, you wouldn't have so many blowouts.

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

You're doing it wrong. Getting pirated versions to validate has been trivial for some time now.

In fact, installing most pirated versions is easier than dealing with legit versions. No serial needed and already activated.

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

that's a myth.

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: by reading this you understand and agree that everything that is written in this article is for educational use only, and none of it should be used at any circumstances, and if you choose to use this information for any kind of action you take full responsibility for it and release Anonymous Coward of any responsibility. If you do not agree to whats written here, stop reading now!

First, look on the internet for an ISO with the SHA1 66ac289ae27724c5ae17139227cbe78c01eefe40. Google or any torrent portal should turn up enough seeds. Make sure you verify the downloaded ISO, which is the MSDN XP3 Volume License ISO, as can be checked here (look for Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3 - VL (x86) - CD (English) and click on Show details).

The VL versions of XP do not require activation, but do require a valid VL key entered during installation (which are different from retail and OEM keys from the stickers on your desktop/laptop). There are keygens out there that generate them (beware of trojans though!), but most keys will fail WGA checks, as they were not issued by Microsoft. What you need is a VL key from a very large institution such as big universities or corporations (which have low risk of getting blacklisted by Microsoft). If you (or someone you know) can run programs on one of these corporate/institutional systems, you can use this keyfinder to retrieve the VL key. After installing the VL disk with such a key, you'll have no problems with any WGA checks until Microsoft decides to block that key.

Re:Torrent

[TavisJohn]

That works great... IF DRIVERS EXIST!!!!!

I would have done this in January when I purchase day Toshiba Gaming laptop...
But there are no drivers for video card(S) (SLI), or sound cards for XP!
So I am STUCK WITH VISA if I want to play games, watch videos, or listen to music. (Or do anything fun)

Re:Torrent

[jcgf]

I downloaded a copy of XP to run under parallels from a torrent. It was a custom ISO that did not require activation or entering a serial number. It also gets the updates perfectly every time without complaint.

I had more trouble setting up virtual machines in VMWare at work with legit copies than I did with the pirated copy.

Re:Torrent

[LiquidCoooled]

I don't see how they can force a vista upgrade on the user.
I haven't got a dodgy copy of Windows to try but maybe someone could confirm.

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

That isn't true. Critical system updates do not require validation and are available to anyone. The only things that require validation are non-essential extras like Media Player or PowerToys.

Re:Torrent

[Kattspya]

If you set windows to the download and install or download but don't install option, updates work just fine with pirated versions. You can even fail WGA-validation and still update.

Re:Torrent

[gdog05]

Windiz Updates work nicely, and in Firefox. http://windizupdate.com/ Not an invested party, but it is damn nice.

Re:Torrent

[courteaudotbiz]

So I am STUCK WITH VISA [...]

Not America Express?

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

If your using a torrent site to get XP I'm sure your also smart enough to get the crack that breaks WGA as well.
Or use Firefox to get your updates....

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with one of the other ACs; you shouldn't run an ISO that's been hacked up with God-knows-what by God-knows-who. The proper solution is to either A) find (and verify!) one of the Volume License MSDN ISOs and an install key to go along with it or B) install a verified Retail / OEM product and use a crack from a respected group that has been properly scanned for trojans. These days almost all custom jobs are infected with multiple trojans; it didn't used to be this way, but unfortunately times have changed. If you want something done right you've got to do it yourself.

Re:Torrent

[TavisJohn]

LOL Blasted "T" did not go through. Sorry! My Fault!

VISA = VISTA

lol

Re:Torrent

[BlackSnake112]

That works great... IF DRIVERS EXIST!!!!!

I would have done this in January when I purchase day Toshiba Gaming laptop...
But there are no drivers for video card(S) (SLI), or sound cards for XP!
So I am STUCK WITH VISA if I want to play games, watch videos, or listen to music. (Or do anything fun)

They don't take MasterCard? Have you tried American Express? :P

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

Or in my case an external floppy drive for 25 dollars for the SATA drivers and an xp upgrade cd purchased from my university for 14 bucks.

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

I was right with you until #4

Re:Torrent

[evilviper]

Will they still sell XP licenses through their WGA program??? This could be a great solution!

Yep: http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/nonGenuine.aspx?displaylang=en&cCode=USA&Error=8&submit=1

It's always nice to know those who DIDN'T break any laws have to pay full price for XP, while the law-breakers get to pay half price and be legal.

Or perhaps

[Anonymous Coward]

be prepared to walk.

That's how I was able to order a business machine from Dell. I told the sales rep that it was either that or HP as the consumer end didn't have what I want.

Not difficult

[geogob]

All it takes is (a copy of) your favorite XP Pro SP2 install disc and your favorite XP serial number.

Even better, chances are that if it's your favorite install disc, it won't even require activation.

The easy way...

[billy901]

If you find someone who has an old XP machine, and you have an old OEM XP disk, just buy the machine and install Windows and use the activation code on the machine. I work at a place that fixes computer up doing this every day.

Re:The easy way...

[Anonymous Coward]

How much easier could it get?!

1) Obtain ancient boxen (at some cost)

2)Obtain XP >=SP2 (somehow...)

3) Install yourself

4) ?????

5) NO PROFIT!!!!! FAIL!!!!

Re:The easy way...

[Cheerio Boy]

Just as a side comment it's interesting to note that it was cheaper for me to find an old Dell box with an XP sticker and use Dell reload CDs on it than to buy a copy of XP separately.  That includes shipping on the system added into that.

But then I only needed Windows for one program at the moment.  I use OS X and Linux for everything else.

Re:The easy way...

[spyrochaete]

To be clear, are you saying that a Vista product key will work during an XP installation?

Re:The easy way...

[maird]

That's what I understand to be the case. I just got a PC at work and the PO and Invoice said "downgrade to XP" but it only came with a Vista key. What really bites is that Microsoft gets to pretend it sold one more Vista license. It's a neat trick on their part I suppose. More than 100 Million copies of Vista sold according to a January 2008 announcement. I wonder how may were actually XP installed with a Vista key. The number of Vista copies Microsoft claims to have sold is a worthless lie.

Re:The easy way...

[tlhIngan]

To be clear, are you saying that a Vista product key will work during an XP installation?

NO.

The steps I've seen documented are:

1) Get an XP CD and key. The CD has to match the key (e.g., OEM CD with OEM key, retail CD with retail key). Just to answer a FAQ: Yes, ANY. Even if it's an already activated copy of XP, or with OEM versions, bound to another machine and activated. Heck, it can be activated through Microsoft, too. You just need a legic CD and key, regardless of whether or not it's been activated, requires activation, what have you. (BTW, I think you need XP Pro - you can't downgrade to XP Home... but I could be wrong (Vista Home->XP Home? I know Vista Buziness+ -> XP Pro).
2) Use that CD and key to install XP.
3) When you activate, choose the phone option, and call Microsoft. Tell them you're downgrading your Vista to XP, and give them your Vista key, the code that the phone-activation shows (and possibly the key you're using). They'll then give you a code to enter in to activate it.

You cannot do an internet activation (since Microsoft needs to know you're exercising your downgrade rights).

Re:The easy way...

[spyrochaete]

I doubt they claim their sales equate precisely to the installed base. Whether you installed Vista or not, you bought it.

Besides, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Re:The easy way...

[somersault]

If you find someone who has an old XP machine [...] use the activation code on the machine

He didn't make any mention of Vista (and in fact neither do TFS and TFT)

Re:The easy way...

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

I think you need XP Pro - you can't downgrade to XP Home... but I could be wrong (Vista Home->XP Home? I know Vista Buziness+ -> XP Pro).
According to Microsoft the only copies that let you downgrade are Vista Business and Vista Ultimate, there is no downgrade rights w/ Vista Home.

Re:The easy way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, activation--the primary reason I switched my mother over to LinuxMint when her 4-year-old installation of XP SP2 became unstable. I didn't have to ask anyone's permission to install it.

Re:The easy way...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's not that easy. Only the most expensive versions of Vista have this clause. And on top of that, Microsoft's phone techs have no idea what you're talking about when you mention this. Not a freaking clue! I ended up installing a less-than-legitimate version of XP for a client because Vista didn't recognize his usb keyboard after booting. You had to re-seat it each time. (There were other issues as well, but this was the final straw)

Why keep giving money to MS?

[xzvf]

What is the fascination people have with giving MS money when they don't want your business? Linux works for a large number of computer tasks, with Wine some more. I don't like the proprietary aspect of Apple, but their product seems to meet consumer needs fairly well. Force MS to be responsive to customer desires. Don't buy until they have a product you want. If the software you want only works on Windows XP, man up and use something else. In the long run it'll pay off.

Re:Why keep giving money to MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux works for a large number of computer tasks, with Wine some more.

Hey buddy....is that Kool-Aid you're drinking?

Re:Why keep giving money to MS?

[somersault]

Unfortunately it'll only pay off if other people aren't idiots and follow suit. That's why we still have companies like McDonalds (I do actually like eating at some other fast food places, but McDonalds don't seem to put any effort in at all) and Microsoft.

I've got at least one person using OpenOffice though, he asked me last year about which version of Office to get (or maybe he just wanted a crack, I can't remember) then I pointed him to OOo and he's been happy with that ever since. For doing simple stuff like student essays then the slight formatting issues between Office and OOo don't really matter.

Article is slashdotted. Here is a mirror:

[Anonymous Coward]

What does it take to get a PC with XP?
Our reporter tried to buy a computer with Windows XP preinstalled on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib.
Christopher Null (PC World (US online)) 17/07/2008 15:58:43

I won't waste time rehashing the argument over whether Windows Vista is any good. The fact remains that lots of people prefer Windows XP, and they'll go to great lengths to get it.

The problem: Windows XP "officially" went off the market on June 30, 2008, and computer vendors aren't supposed to sell new machines configured with any version of Windows except Vista.

Fortunately for XP enthusiasts and Vista vetoers, the PC marketplace still has a loophole or two in it. In response to pressure from customers, Microsoft has made some concessions for people who really want XP, offering a lifeline for users willing and able to wade through the company's convoluted downgrading program. The upshot is that virtually every copy of Vista Business or Vista Ultimate Edition is sold with a license for XP, which a computer manufacturer can exercise to install XP Professional on any Vista Business or Vista Ultimate PC.

But just because a manufacturer can install XP doesn't mean that it will. And just because its official policy permits it to sell XP machines doesn't mean that its employees understand that policy.

To find out how difficult it is to get a new XP machine these days, I asked the nine largest PC vendors in the United States--Dell, HP, Gateway, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu, Lenovo, Sony, and Asus--about the specifics of their downgrade policies. Then, to see how closely the official story synced up with the reality in the marketplace, I called sales representatives for each company and asked them whether I could purchase a new laptop equipped with XP from them.

The verdict? Downgrade policies are all over the map, and more than a few rank-and-file sales reps have a sketchy understanding of those policies. Some notebook PC sellers make getting XP preinstalled on a new laptop a snap; others don't offer it under any circumstance. As a rule of thumb, your odds of finding a machine with XP and a sales rep who knows how to configure a machine with that OS are far greater if you call the business sales line instead of the consumer sales line. (Be prepared to fib and say you're planning to buy 25 computers during the next 12 months.) Getting XP via online purchase can be tricky, too.

Here's how each manufacturer's formal policy--and informal reality--shakes out.

Dell

The Official Word: Dell has one of the most extensive and detailed policies on Windows XP of the nine vendors I investigated, but getting XP preinstalled on a machine may cost you extra. The company outlines the situation in this blog posting, where the company explains that though the XP downgrade program targets corporate customers, it's an option for general consumers, too. Though the rules are complicated, they are in line with those of most other sellers. To be eligible for an XP downgrade, you must be purchasing a Latitude laptop, an OptiPlex desktop, a Precision workstation, a Vostro laptop or desktop, an XPS 630 desktop, or an M1730 laptop. The machine must be specced to come with Vista Business or Vista Ultimate, and you can downgrade only to XP Professional. You must pay a $20 to $50 fee for the downgrade if you're buying a Vostro or XPS; corporate clients receive the downgrade at no charge. The program is slated to run until January 31, 2009, but Dell says that even after that it will continue to make some enterprise-level exceptions.

The Real Deal: Alas, not all Dell reps seemed to be up to speed on the company's XP strategy. First I tried to purchase an Inspiron running XP for "home use" (that's not covered in Dell's policy, but I decided to try my luck anyway). The harried sales rep I spoke to told me, "We don't have any computers running XP any more." After some pushing, he acknowledged that "I think business has them" but ins

Vendor Lock In

[Van Cutter Romney]

Talk about vendor lock in. I just hope Linux starts to make more headway into corporate desktops - and I don't just mean for developers. More support we get for Linux more it is going to be used by corporates.

For whatever it is now, Windows wasn't all that great even 15 years ago. Very rudimentary, few supported applications and all that.

It was all the corporate adoption and the developer ecosystem that has brought Windows to what it is now. I'm sure with more widespread usage we can get Linux to be at the same usage level without the security glitches.

Only if the stopped using corny names like Hardy Heron ... (sigh)

Re:Vendor Lock In

[Trelane]

Only if the stopped using corny names like Hardy Heron ... (sigh)

Are you running Windows Whistler? How about Longhorn?

The point is that internal names are not the same as official names. Calling the current release of Ubuntu "Hardy Heron" is like calling Vista "Longhorn" or XP "Whistler". It's more popular to call Ubuntu 8.04 "Hardy Heron" or just "Hardy" because it's easy to remember and Ubuntu/Canonical is a much more open system than Windows/Microsoft (and don't have massive advertising campaigns to make sure you remember the right name), but it's not the official name.

In short, if you want to avoid calling it by the internal name, use the official name, e.g. Ubuntu 8.04.

Re:Vendor Lock In

[DAldredge]

I read nearly that exact same comment right after I signed up for a /. account. Not much progress has been made since that time.

Re:Vendor Lock In

[compro01]

Or for the numerophobics, I refer to it simply as "version H".

Re:Vendor Lock In

[BlackSnake112]

*Bows to the 4 digit Slashdot ID*

Next a 3,2,or single digit ID will pop up and I have to get lower

erm...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.dabs.com/productlist.aspx?&NavigationKey=11101&NavigationKey=45960000&CategorySelectedId=11101&PageMode=1

Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Buy a PC
2. Install your copy of Windows XP SP2/3 with the corporate Volume License key you've got lying around.
3. There is no step 3.

What do you mean you don't have a copy of the corporate WindowsXP already? Don't be silly.

Re:special favors

[MyLongNickName]

Hi. We were talking about how to get Windows XP, not your weekend plans.

Thanks.

Try different suppliers

[oldspewey]

TFA appears to be slashdotted, but I would suggest that it's just a matter of trying different (often smaller) suppliers until you find somebody who is willing to oblige. Smaller local shops can put together a system built exactly to your spec, and will happily install Windows XP, all drivers, test the entire rig before delivering it to you, and offer a warranty equivalent to the big boxes.

Re:Try different suppliers

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy it from Canada Computers? First Canadian pharmacies, now Canadian computer stores. What's next?

Re:Try different suppliers

[oldspewey]

What's next?

Canadian oil?

Re:Try different suppliers

[TechForensics]

Even if you legally buy XP preinstalled from Canada, I wonder whether the BSA would attack it as not properly licensed for your business. If they decide you're in the wrong and sue, you may be forced to settle for ca. $5,000.00 for each "improperly licensed" installation of XP.

XoticPC

[nevermore94]

My favorite laptop seller still offers XP as a standard option on some of its laptops. Granted I haven't tried to purchase one since the deadline, but the option to do so is still there:
http://www.xoticpc.com/force-3298-built-compal-jfl92-wsxga-p-2377.html?wconfigure=yes

Does anyone remember

[Rik Sweeney]

when Windows 95 first came out. Microsoft were so confident that users would enjoy it they even included the ability to roll back to Windows 3.1

I wonder why they didn't include this option with Windows Vista...

Re:Does anyone remember

[Anonymous Coward]

Possibly because the NT series kernel makes it almost impossible to rollback an installation.

Re:Does anyone remember

[Anonymous Coward]

When I bought my first machine with Windows 95 I did roll back to Windows 3.1. Why? Because the first release of Windows 95 was so unstable I couldn't get any work done on it! I didn't move back to Win95 until the first service release came out.

Re:Does anyone remember

[Anonymous Coward]

probably because it's a waste of resources to build and properly test. Reformatting the hard drive and reinstalling isn't that hard.

Re:Does anyone remember

[UnknowingFool]

Technically, Win95 was just a different frontend to DOS. XP uses a different codebase than Vista so reverting back would be somewhat more complicated.

Re:Does anyone remember

[TheRaven64]

It was very easy to do that with Windows 95. Windows 3.x lived in the win3 directory and programs all lived in their own directories. Windows 95 lived in the Windows or Win95 directory and programs lived in the progra~1 directory. But then it got complicated. Bits of Windows started living in the progra~1 directory. Windows NT 4 could happily dual-boot with DOS/Windows 3.11, and even with Windows 95. Until you installed IE 4 (maybe 5) which had different DLLs for NT and 9x but insisted on putting them in the same place. At which point, one of your installs would be broken unless you jumped through a lot of hoops to get them to coexist. Fortunately, 2K came out very soon after and it was possible to ditch 9x completely.

Re:Does anyone remember

[BUL2294]

Microsoft were so confident that users would enjoy it they even included the ability to roll back to Windows 3.1

Here's something shocking... Windows 3.11 (both Windows and Windows for Workgroups) outsold Windows 95 in both 1995 and 1996 calendar years. The reverse didn't happen until 1997. In fact, so many PCs were sold with Win3.1x after the introduction of Win95, catching software vendors by surprise, that several 32-bit apps initially released as Win95-only got back-ported to Windows 3.1x & Win32s in a subsequent interim release. (Case-in-point: Corel Print House from 1995/1996).

Your useless trivia for the day...

Re:Does anyone remember

[Fizzl]

Would you like to elaborate exactly what you mean by "different codebase"?
Win95 wasn't another shell for DOS. It actually was a jump to real multitasking 32bit kernel. I would consider that far greater jump than XP->Vista, whereas both use a kernel derived from NT.

Re:Does anyone remember

[marcosdumay]

By that time, Microsoft didn't have that strong dominance on the market.

Now, they can (almost) get away with it.

Re:Does anyone remember

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, I agree. I personally would prefer to use Windows 3.1 over Vista any day!

Re:Does anyone remember

[ignavus]

"I wonder why they didn't include this option with Windows Vista..."

That Windows 95 option was just before Cthulhu took possession of the souls of all the senior executives at Mi... oh, I get it, you weren't actually asking a real question, you were being rhetorical, weren't you?

Re:The Death of M$

[maxume]

Why is Vista sending encrypted communications to General Electric?

Vista vs XP

[lymond01]

Not that a large discussion needs to be had here as the article likely pertains (OCIDNRTFA) to home ownership, but I've chosen to start using Vista at work as of about 3 weeks ago.

And it's, uh, fine. I have 2 GB of memory installed, Vista boots up to use half of that. Firefox, Thunderbird, Photoshop, server admin tools, web design programs are what I use mostly (and putty). The re-install process of everything got a little old with the administrator prompts (I run as a normal user, something I was reluctant to do in XP), but at the same time, it's nice not to have to choose Run as... all the time.

We use it at home on a laptop as well (the kids' gaming machine is XP) and aside from taking 30 seconds to connect to the wireless after sleeping, it's fine.

I think I just don't have any really high-performance needs, so Vista actually works for me. Whole Disk encryption is easier as well with Vista I hear, though I don't use it.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's, uh, fine.

Uhmmm.....I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say things like that around here.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Inda]

The 30 seconds wireless thing doesn't happen on my Vista install. I can connect to the *cough* neighbours AP within 5 seconds from any state.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Rogerborg]

And I'm happy enough with my wife, but Alyson Hannigan is slimmer and I bet she'd be more responsive. Why settle?

Re:Vista vs XP

[plasmacutter]

I know you've probably been beaten over the head with this, but I ask that you fully and thoughtfully read this article.

Thank you.

Re:Vista vs XP

[goldsaturn]

I can connect to the *cough* neighbours AP within 5 seconds from any state.

Even Alaska? That must be some router!

Re:Vista vs XP

[knarf]

OK, we now know what you lost when going to Vista: about 1 GB of memory, 30 seconds when waking up from sleep, some patience to click those 'Are You Really Sure That You Want ...' buttons...

Now, for general interest and in the name of sanity please tell us what you *gained* from paying your tithe to Microsoft to step on the bandwagon called Vista. Is that gain worth the loss? Does the future look better now that you use Vista? Or is it just that Microsoft's decision to retire XP leaves you - in your opinion - with no other choice?

Re:Vista vs XP

[pastafazou]

Yeah? Why don't you try booting off the CD and doing a repair install, and see how "uh, fine" it is then...

Re:Vista vs XP

[ShadowRangerRIT]

From a commentary link at the bottom of Schneier's article (provided by Schneier, not some random comments post):

The researcher who Bruce Schneier cites who in turn is widely cited in the media as an expert on why Vista DRM is so evil actually admits to never actually even touching Windows Vista. That's the level of "research" he did.

The DRM on Vista applies to DRM-ed sources that you couldn't view at all without it. Whoop-di-doo. I've got HD resolution material on my machine (Vista Ultimate SP1, x64) sans DRM that displays just fine on my HDTV (via component cables, not even HDMI). My general experience has been that games perform maybe 5-10% less efficiently on Vista x64 (with up to date drivers) than on XP x86, and roughly identically to XP x64. I somehow doubt DRM is to blame.

Re:Vista vs XP

[lymond01]

Good question. So far I personally have gained:

1) Actual easier use of admin rights while running under a normal user account and therefore better security (as you're more likely to run as a normal user)
2) The snippet tool (ok, this is just handy, and I'm sure is duplicated in lots of freeware)
3) Better performance monitor
4) 64-bit support (don't mention XP 64...that OS isn't really usable)

There are other functions I haven't delved into yet such as the easier whole disk encryption, single-image installation, etc.

I'm not saying it's worth the jump from XP, but having actually tried it from a user's perspective, it's not as horrible as I'd imagined.

Re:Vista vs XP

[lymond01]

I'm familiar with the DRM involved with Vista and the potential performance hits (try being on a domain, unplug the network connection, and attempt an admin task...you'll kill 60 seconds each time waiting for Vista to figure out how to authenticate you).

Again, it's a work computer that isn't pushing any hardware limits. If there's a slowdown due to Vista checking on my actions with files (which there could be because the OS isn't exactly snappy), it doesn't affect me too much.

I'm a sys admin, so I've got a dozen Linux boxes via SSH I use for serving data. I've mostly installed Vista to get a professional opinion about it, rather than reading article after article. (Professional...my friend's dad, upon hearing I was in IT, said, "Oh, that's a nice trade." Oh well.)

Re:Vista vs XP

[Anonymous Coward]

The 30 seconds wireless thing doesn't happen on my Vista install. I can connect to the *cough* neighbours AP within 5 seconds from any state.

Even Hawaii?

Re:Vista vs XP

[gbjbaanb]

Which is fine, Vista isn't the unusable brain-dead pile of steaming poop some would have you beleve, and it has some benefits over XP. I think you've named them all except for 1 (when you try to delete a load of files, any that are locked will show a prompt with 'skip' option).

Vista however....

hogs memory - you've seen this already.
hogs disk space (check your WinSxS directory, it isn't small. this is more of a big deal in this age of VMs and smaller, power-efficient machines)

Explorer will occasionally start to delete everything when you delete a few files, I think its user error but its not obvious how I end up with Vista trying to delete the containing directory.
File delete still takes ages - Vista will happily wait to tell you how long it'll take to delete a file before actually deleting the f*cker.

Driver support can be ... limited, especially for older hardware and you're SOL if you don't want to buy a new device.

Explorer cannot keep the display configuration per folder that I set it - not if I edit a parent folder (with the 'inherit' checkbox cleared, obviously).

The indexer service never seems to stop, and if you do stop it, you'll find you don't get a complete start menu list after time.

Also, for some reason, when I close any app that has used a lot of RAM, Vista starts a mega disk thrashing session. This lasts for minutes, though the system is usable, I wouldn't like to be running my box on a SSD!

Oh, but the biggest issue is things that have just broken, but you don't realise until you come to use them. eg, I had a problem with the Task Scheduler - it couldn't create new tasks. I forget the exact problem (or the solution) but it was pretty wierd with a mis-install of some system component. Also, I had problems installing SQL Server - I got a 'failed to compile MOF files xyz'. Turns out, this is because the WMI is corrupted! I'd only just installed Vista and it was broken in subtle ways. I think its just too complex, and I reckon you will too once you really get going with it.

So, after using it for a while I think its ok, but if I had to buy a copy I just wouldn't bother. Incidentally, my work PC runs XP and will do so until I have to change.

Re:Vista vs XP

[plasmacutter]

Ok, and peter gutman, whose writeup he linked to, actually did touch vista.

He has thoroughly documented it, including screenshots of the DRM wrapper using 20% of the cpu to play unprotected media.

"Tilt bits" are activated by pretty much anything, and those relentlessly buggy vista drivers were that way because of the orwellian drm requirements.

Read the peter gutman writeup he links to in his article.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been using Vista since December and find it to be a superior product to XP.

Re:Vista vs XP

[MtViewGuy]

I'm using Windows Vista Home Premium (SP1) on my recently-bought HP Pavilion a6400f and I have no real significant issues at all with the machine--it's a modicum of stability and even the pre-installed software works quite well, Firefox 3.0 (now 3.0.1) works great, and Windows Update works very well with effects on installed software. Did I miss something from all the detractors?

Re:Vista vs XP

[AbRASiON]

Glad you like it, I loathe it with all my being.

Until Windows explorer is FIXED in Vista to be as functional, fast and useful as the one in XP then I will avoid it like the plague it is.
If you'd like examples of problems, bugs and design flaws with it, just check my post history - Vista explorer is nothing short of a disgrace for people who use their filesystems extensively.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Allador]

Can you support that?

In the early days of Gutmans' ranting (ie, before Vista hit RTM), he was quite clear that he had never actually tested any of his theories.

I cant find anything in his page to support the idea that this has changed.

The closest thing I can find is him quoting some anonymous third parties that showed some task manager screenshots. None of this is Gutman's research, or actually research at all.

Gutman's entire setup consists of him making a hypothesis about how he thinks the DRM _might_ be implemented in Vista based on some very early documents about the systems. He then goes on to assume that his blue-sky hypothesis are correct, and makes further (second order) predictions on how the system might be affected by his hypothetical implementations.

None of this is based on any sort of scientific method, like, you know, TESTING your hypothesis. It's all just speculation built on speculation.

Anyone running Vista on a machine can see in about 30 seconds how full of crap Gutman is, based on the machine's behavior.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Allador]

I'm familiar with the DRM involved with Vista and the potential performance hits (try being on a domain, unplug the network connection, and attempt an admin task...you'll kill 60 seconds each time waiting for Vista to figure out how to authenticate you).

Nothing in that sentence has anything whatsoever to do with DRM, though you seem to imply that it does.

There was a bug in RTM Vista that made UAC escalations (of the user/pass variety, not the confirm/deny kind) take much longer than they should for domain machines that couldnt contact a DC. This was one of the major things noted as fixed in SP1.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Allador]

OK, we now know what you lost when going to Vista: about 1 GB of memory, 30 seconds when waking up from sleep, some patience to click those 'Are You Really Sure That You Want ...' buttons...

Not sure what you're referring to here. Sleep & Hibernate are much faster and more reliable than they ever were in XP Pro.

And I'm not sure how the UAC prompts are any worse than constantly using RunAS in XP. Of course, maybe you're referring to running Vista w/ UAC and as a non-admin being slightly more inconvenient than running XP as an admin. Of course, that would mean that you're just comparing random unrelated things and wasting all of our time.

Now, for general interest and in the name of sanity please tell us what you *gained* from paying your tithe to Microsoft to step on the bandwagon called Vista.

Well, not sure what you mean about this 'tithe', but the windows cost on a machine is pretty much the same, rather it be vista or xp.

I cant speak for everybody, but what I got out of it was ... a much more reliable system, where the desktop is much more unstoppable to network events, and a machine that can go 2-3 times as long without rebooting than XP could.

Re:Vista vs XP

[plasmacutter]

When I read his article he had god damn screen shots linked in.

Re:Vista vs XP

[plasmacutter]

Gutman's entire setup consists of him making a hypothesis about how he thinks the DRM _might_ be implemented in Vista based on some very early documents about the systems. He then goes on to assume that his blue-sky hypothesis are correct, and makes further (second order) predictions on how the system might be affected by his hypothetical implementations.

None of this is based on any sort of scientific method, like, you know, TESTING your hypothesis. It's all just speculation built on speculation.

There is nothing pie in the sky about what he is saying, he doesn't hypothesize about how. He goes through the requirements microsoft puts out, quoting their own god damn certification literature, and explains exactly what they mean to system stability.

Anyone running Vista on a machine can see in about 30 seconds how full of crap Gutman is, based on the machine's behavior.

Yeah, i'm sure the many many people who had crashing video drivers because of the orwellian maze microsoft is forcing video hardware manufacturers to navigate were so very happy.

I'm sure all those people who can't use SPDIF or half the other advanced functions on their sound cards because the companies involved either didn't want to go through the expense microsoft's new requirements imposed, or were simply UNABLE to comply with them are happy... oh wait, they have to get hacks, and there have been stories on slashdot about it.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Adelle]

> Explorer cannot keep the display configuration per folder that
> I set it - not if I edit a parent folder (with the 'inherit'
> checkbox cleared, obviously).

I think this is a long-running bug from XP and earlier. The "per-folder" configuration stores configuration entries for a fixed maximum number of folders, which I imagine you are more likely to have exceeded if you are running Vista.

There may be a registry hack, but I just turn the feature off because it annoys me when it works.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Neotangerine]

4) 64-bit support (don't mention XP 64...that OS isn't really usable)

As a gamer at heart, XP 64 was really the only good choice for me. When you have a decent gaming box, you will most likely have over 4 GB of memory (assuming ~1 GB video card and 3+ GB of system RAM). If you try to use any non-64 bit OS your total memory addresses collect up to 4 GB of memory. Any thing over is not able to be used.

On the subject of usefulness anything that can be used on XP can be used on XP 64. Now there are very few programs out there that can take advantage of the 64 bit operating system, but you still can install and use all 32 bit applications. XP 64 creates two folders for this "Program Files" and "Program Files(x86)". So your comment that it is not usable is completely false. You have all the usability of standard XP but some support of 64 bit applications.

The easy way..

[billy901]

You could just get a computer that has been donated with XP. If you get it from a special place that takes care of donated computers, they are just like new. I happen to work at one. Not only do you take care of waste but you get a computer with XP.

Such a funny name...

[Vexler]

...if Christopher had been a Devin, I guess XP just got piped to /dev/Null.

Re:The Death of M$

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! This guy said "DRM"!!! Quick, everyone, MOD HIM UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So backwards...

[Blice]

You: Hey Microsoft, can I give you money for your product?

Microsoft: No.

You: Please..?

Re:So backwards...

[Low Ranked Craig]

Microsoft: No, you have to use this crappy, bloated new product. Me: Seems like a good point to jump ship completely. Hello Mac Book Pro and Ubuntu Server.

Re:So backwards...

[penguinbrat]

FTFA...

"You have to upgrade to Vista Ultimate and then you can do the downgrade," he said--but I'd have to perform the installation myself, and I'd have to buy the software from another source. It ends up costing you more to downgrade,"

Don't get me wrong, the last copy of Windoze I bought was '95 and it would bluescreen after installation on the first update - I officially gave up after that. But this sounds so wrong, that I would fight it if I it if I wanted to use it for anything at all - you legally buy a copy of Vista Home or something besides the decked out version(s), and then turn around and legally buy a copy of XP at some retail store or the very same, and even though I legally bought it, it's against the law for me to use it?!?!?!

If that is legit and right, M$ needs to stick with the 360 and give up on OS's - at least in the console market, the OS is so limiting anyway you can't have the flexibility and functionality that everyone is crying about.

Re:So backwards...

[Tacvek]

You don't buy an XP licence+cd combo for the downgrade. Instead you purchase an XP cd without license. How you buy one of those without being a corporation is not known by me. Of course, you may happen to have an old XP CD around whose license is used on another computer. In that case just use that CD. (I'm not sure that OEM CDs would work for this though).

Re:So backwards...

[mgblst]

Why don't you try going to a Ford dealership and try to buy a Ford Pinto?

But actually, I guess Vista is more like the Ford Pinto, so forget that.

Business license

[Anonymous Coward]

It is easy to do through Dell, HP, etc... business program. But unfortunately, the consumer side isn't very easy.

Re:Business license

[Carson Napier]

What?? I have purchased THREE machines from Dell in the past year, ALL with XP. They offer them... you just have to look and read a little!

Fib??

[iminplaya]

Isn't that a felony?

Why purchase XP at all?

[Manip]

Alright this Vista thing has got a little out of hand. Here's a quick recap on events up till now:
1) Microsoft Released Windows Vista
2) Windows Vista failed to live up to people's expectations
3) People said "stick with Windows XP for now"
4) People complained about the normal driver and application compatibility issues
5) Somewhere along the line "stick with Windows XP for now" got turned into "Windows Vista sucks - stick with XP indefinitely."

So now we have people paying the same amount of money either way and going out of their way to pickup Windows XP. I could appreciate that position a year when issues still existed but those have all but gone today.

Vista is about as big of a leap as going from virgin XP to XP SP2. Meaning a few nice features but not really worth money. It has very few bugs and at least as many as XP currently does.

Windows ME was terrible. But let's be clear - Vista isn't ME. Because Windows ME was genuinely an unstable buggy monster as opposed to Vista which is just a very minor upgrade with a huge price tag.

Yes it eats more memory. SuperFetch converts all of your available free memory into better program loading times. These pages are marked so that they can be disposed of very quickly but when viewing a memory map it appears as if memory usage has skyrocketed.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[rsantmann]

I am an experienced software developer, and I have been installing and configuring computers for years (including DOS/Windows 3.11). While your experience may have been fine, rest assured that there are reasons why so many people hated Vista. "I have had nothing but problems with my Upgrade from Windows XP Pro to Windows Vista Business. The OS is plagued with driver and application issues, Windows Explorer takes ages for the most simple of tasks, the indexing service sucks up the hard disk even when the computer is in use, the user account control is endlessly nagging you, it is less stable than Windows XP (I get at least one blue screen of death every few days), the performance is absolutely abysmal for even the most mundane tasks, Windows doesn't turn on the screen half the time when resuming from standby, file sync doesn't work properly, indexing service wouldn't reinstall after uninstalling, none of my VPNs work properly, file search takes forever (with or without the indexing service turned on), when disabling and re-enabling my network card half the time the Disable button doesn't turn into a Enable button which requires me to reboot, the system restore wants to save the registry every time I boot (making it take forever), and an endless list of other annoying nuggets of lameness. I think the editor reviews that people wrote were after using it for a day or two. Sure, alot of the new features are cool, except none of them work correctly. Use it for a couple weeks and it will have you cursing non-stop."

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[drsmithy]

Vista is about as big of a leap as going from virgin XP to XP SP2.

Actually, it's more like going from Windows NT 3.51 to Windows XP. Or NeXT/OPENSTEP 4.x to OS X 10.5. There are numerous, major, and in some cases fundamental, changes to pretty much every significant part of the OS.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say the problems have all gone away. I had my first experience with a brand new Vista Home Premium laptop recently. My "issues":
- On the first boot, I expect it to have to do some housekeeping and setup stuff. That's fine. But part of this process included it sitting there completely frozen (mouse cursor wouldn't move) for 10 min with no progress bar or any indication that it was doing anything other than the fact that the harddrive was going.
- I installed Vista SP1 and all available security and driver updates first.
- I have a fairly popular printer: the HP LaserJet 1200. I installed the Windows drivers for it, but they limited me to 600dpi. This is a 1200dpi printer, and under Windows XP I can print at 1200dpi using HP's drivers. So, I downloaded the Vista drivers for this printer from HP's website and tried to install them. The result? During the installation process, something crashed and brought down the entire Vista printing subsystem. (I had to go into services and restart the print spooler.) So, I'm stuck printing to a 1200dpi printer at 600dpi.
- This was my sister's laptop, and she has some favourite games she wanted installed on them. Some of them were not designed for Vista. I tried installing one of them under a limited user account, and the installer crashed. Well, fine, maybe I won't get all these old games working under Vista. But the installer stayed crashed, and when I tried to kill the process in task manager, the entire system froze and I had to hard power off.

Now, you could say that some of those problems are caused by "3rd-party software". But step back and look at the big picture. This is not a good first impression for a new operating system to make, and all of the software I tried to use did work flawlessly under Windows XP. These are, in fact, exactly the problems people were complaining about a year ago, and it looks to me very much like they have not gone away today, even after SP1.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[ShibaInu]

I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but back when my wife and I first bought a computer together, we got an ME box from Dell. I had a mac and a red hat pc, so it was my first Windows machine - and it worked well enough. It did what we needed it to do. So, I agree with you. Vista may suck, but for the average user, it will probably work fine. And, if you are buying a new machine now, you'll probably have the hardware to handle it.

If and when I get a new Windows box, I'll just take Vista. If I want to play with operating systems, I have linux.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Blakey Rat]

The exact same thing happened when XP came out in the first place, Padawan, with the exception that the big push was to stay with Windows 2000 forever. Now, after a few years, XP is the "good" product, and Vista is the "bad" one. I'm sure when Windows 7 comes out, people will gripe and say "where can I buy a computer with Vista?"

It's the circle of life.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Totenglocke]

I have a laptop I bought recently that came with Vista -- and Vista's perfectly fine for simple use (browsing, typing, programming, etc), but it's HORRIBLE for gaming. Though, I don't think that's quite so much Vista's fault as it is DirectX 10's fault (but DirectX 10 is part of Vista). I ended up having to scour the internet to find laptops from other manufacturer's / older models using similar hardware to mine so that I could get some XP drivers and dual boot. The difference in playing games (not even counting the games that just don't run under Vista period) is unbelievable. So yes, I will definitely say that Vista sucks -- for gaming. For normal use, it's not too bad (though things like UAC are extremely annoying unless you turn them off).

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[arkhan_jg]

Vista SP1 runs slower than XP SP3 on the same hardware for network operations (copy, unrar etc). It's noticeably 'laggier' for general UI interfaces. There were some benches around a while back showing the disparity.

I've noticed it on a number of systems, I have 4 pcs currently with dual or triple boot (vista, xp, ubuntu) - all with 2-4GB of RAM, dual or quad core 2's etc, so it's not hardware lacking.

Mind you, if your hardware is anything less than ninja, vista will CRAWL.

I sysadmin a 1200 user network. Virtually every staff member that's had a vista laptop issued over the last year has come in and asked us to switch it back to XP. It's noticeably slower for what they do with it, and the amount of drivers for printers, cameras and other user devices is still severely lacking. Whole swathes of user devices are not supported by the vendors for vista, and never will be. "Buy our new version instead". Sucks if you wanted to carry on using that wifi card, or printer, or camera, or scanner, or webcam etc etc you already had that worked fine on XP.

Worse, there's plenty of applications that don't run, and never will. Windows 98 or 2000 era apps that users love and can't live without are ample in the real world, and the worst case, but there's plenty of XP-era apps that don't run either.

Vista can't do many things that XP can, and is sluggish in many operations for many users. I use it where I must, but otherwise it is a failure.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[pherthyl]

>> Yes it eats more memory. SuperFetch converts all of your available free memory into better program loading times. These pages are marked so that they can be disposed of very quickly but when viewing a memory map it appears as if memory usage has skyrocketed.

I know the theory, but it doesn't work in practice (at least not on my machine). When the system uses so much ram that you're hitting swap, you lose. Whether that's superfetch or something else, I really don't care. I just know that XP uses about 200, while Vista uses about 500-600 on boot, and the Vista install is brand new. And when I open programs that RAM is not freed like the theory says. The system just ends up swapping like crazy, which slows everything down to unbearable speeds and eats my laptop battery.

Sure I only have 1GB of RAM. But that's plenty for XP and plenty for Linux, so I'm not inclined to spend money on hardware to run an OS with zero advantages.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Anonymous Coward]

From an administration standpoint, vista makes my life difficult. Every other computer on our small network (about 40 pc's) is either 2000 or XP, but the one vista machine is the one that makes my job more frustrating than it has to be. Considering that my main roles are database programmer and system administrator (I also maintain 2 slackware servers), I'd reformat that PC and install XP in a heartbeat. Sure, I could probably spend the time to figure out how to make vista more compatible with our network, but why? That's just not a priority, especially when XP (or even 2000) has been working just fine for what we do.

If you have time to waste, then have fun with vista. For me, I'm not about to fix what ain't broke.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[ConceptJunkie]

The Vista reaction has been much worse than XP, and hasn't diminished the way it did with XP. I only got XP when I bought a new computer with it, and very shortly I was able to set up an environment that I was comfortable with, looked good (e.g., I immediately turned off that ass-ugly default theme) and allowed me to work the way I wanted to. I tried with Vista and finally just gave up. It was way too much work to try to use it the way I wanted to and the performance hits and other nonsense weren't a reasonable trade-off for... nothing.

I finally just switched to Ubuntu.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[blind biker]

You were extremely careful NOT to mention the greatest complaint that users have with Vista: it's dog-slow.

At anything.

Sure, if you throw enough CPU and memory at it, it will be "fine". While XP, on that configuration, actually boots quickly, performs quickly and is overall really fast and responsive. Quick, fast, responsive is what users want, and Vista takes that away, and leaves them with "fine" or "acceptable". So, some users said screw that, I want XP.

Ever tried running Vista on the Eee PC? It's a disaster - compared to XP or Linux. But HP decided they will release their Mini-note (similar hardware specs as the Eee PC eccept it has 2GB of ram, while the Eee has 512MB to 1GB), and well, they got themselves a nice shiny turd of slowness.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Shados]

What the hell are you doing on that machine anyway? I had a developer machine that was running SQL Server and VS2008 (multiple instances) at all time on top of all the other crap I needed for work, and I never hit swap on 1 gig. Memory was already fred way before that ever happened (well, unless doing something like compiling a huge C++ codebase or whatever).

If you had one of the stupid antivirus that say that they are Vista compatible but arent (McAfee, Norton, AVG...yes, AVG), then I'd understand, but...

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Shados]

I agree about Vista being unfit for Eee PCs... but being slow? Certainly not since SP1... booting? It boots the same as XP (-unless- you have something like Norton, McAfee, AVG, etc installed), and why would you anyway? (aside once a month for updates)? Vista's sleep mode is amazing. I only ever reboot for the monthly system updates, and thats it.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[pherthyl]

Thats the thing, I'm not really doing anything. I just have it on a partition to test software.

I don't run anything but a browser and the standard stuff. I don't do any development on it. No antivirus, because its a waste of time if you're careful.

And yet the hard drive churns for ages after startup and everything is just sluggish.
Maybe its a driver problem. I dunno. But its not very useful in its current state. I'll revisit it when I get a new computer.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I have had nothing but problems with my Upgrade from Windows XP Pro to Windows Vista Business. The OS is plagued with driver and application issues,

That's not happening to everyone; Vista works fine for me.

Windows Explorer takes ages for the most simple of tasks,

Again, not happening to me.

the indexing service sucks up the hard disk even when the computer is in use,

So what? That's what you'd expect of an indexing service, right? Spotlight on Mac OS X does this as well, and I don't mind because I actually use Spotlight from time to time.

the user account control is endlessly nagging you,

This is a good thing. Previously, if you inserted a CD into a computer running Windows XP or earlier, and the auto-run script contained a trojan horse of some sort, then you were pwn3d. At least in Vista, you can see it coming and stop it.

it is less stable than Windows XP (I get at least one blue screen of death every few days),

I'm not seeing this behavior.

the performance is absolutely abysmal for even the most mundane tasks,

Windows Vista has been much faster than XP for me. You just need more memory so the library cache won't send you into virtual territory.

Windows doesn't turn on the screen half the time when resuming from standby, file sync doesn't work properly, indexing service wouldn't reinstall after uninstalling, none of my VPNs work properly, file search takes forever (with or without the indexing service turned on), when disabling and re-enabling my network card half the time the Disable button doesn't turn into a Enable button which requires me to reboot, the system restore wants to save the registry every time I boot (making it take forever), and an endless list of other annoying nuggets of lameness.

All of these have worked fine for me, too.

It's too bad you had a bad experience with Vista, but don't assume everyone's experience was as bad as yours. Personally, I would never go back to XP; Vista is that good.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[King_TJ]

Really? All the Vista issues from a year ago are gone now?

Please tell me, then, how to get our HP Designjet 500 42" plotter working in Vista? Because apparently, HP has no drivers for anything newer than Windows XP for it (or many other older, but expensive large format plotters of theirs).

That alone is a great reason for our company to stick with XP Pro.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Shados]

Was it a new computer or a new install (with light use, "new" in this case could mean a decent while).

On a new install, Vista will be analysing usage statistics and precaching stuff for the first few hours (and by first few hours, I mean several days). If used heavily (but always doing the same stuff), it takes 2-4 days, but if only used 1-2 hours a day doing random stuff, it can take a very, very long time. During that time, the hard drive will be going totally insane. Once its done, you'll never hear it again.

On this computer, which has a 10000 rpm raptor hard drive (read: incredibly noisy), it was driving me insane at first. Seriously wouldn't stop. After a while, it went away, and now the system is zippy. (I'm forced to use XP at work now that I'm used to Vista... and it is truly unbearable. However it -is- made worse because it has that garbage that is AVG installed on it... AVG is a plague on Vista, but it still isn't all that great on XP)

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[MtViewGuy]

If you have a machine built in the past year with a CPU that has more than one CPU core, why bother with Windows XP. I'm using an HP Pavilion a6400f consumer desktop computer that has an Intel Pentium Dual-Core E2200 CPU (essentially a Core 2 Duo with only 1 MB L2 cache), 3 GB of RAM, 500 GB SATA-300 HD, and onboard Intel G33 graphics with no problems whatsoever, so I'm stumped. (shrug)

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[AbRASiON]

Rubbish absoloute rubbish.

Of the people I've spoken to who dislike Vista (and there's many) I would break it down as the following issues

Performance complaints 20% of people
Compatibility complaints 15% of people
Disdain at the user interface 65% of people

Vista Aero is terrible and Vista classic is nothing short of an insult to previous users of XP classic UI.
I can comfortably afford a quad core machine, with 4gb of ram, I could afford RAID 0 raptors if I like but performance isn't my concern with the vile operating system, it's the absoloutely nasty Windows explorer interface - it's _terrible_ (see my post history for more information)

THAT is why people say Vista sucks and I'm not talking about elitist geeks, I'm talking about some of my dads friends (in their 50's) purchased a new computer with Vista, they stuck with it for 3 months and just couldn't hack it, they paid good money to switch back to XP.

Face it people, XP does 99% of what people want, simply, easily and at a high speed to boot.
You could re-package Vista with all it's flaws 'under the hood' it apparently has and I wouldn't care as long as it had a usable interface.
In it's current form, Vista is an abortion.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[AbRASiON]

So what? That's what you'd expect of an indexing service, right? Spotlight on Mac OS X does this as well, and I don't mind because I actually use Spotlight from time to time.

No, you wouldn't expect this from an indexing service.
The indexing service in Vista thrashes the disk at all times, even though it's supposed to do it only during idle times, my drive is constantly thrashing about and distinctively impacting performance of opening applications.

Windows Vista has been much faster than XP for me. You just need more memory so the library cache won't send you into virtual territory.

Fucking lies, stop wasting our time with lies.
This is basically physically impossible, it simply can not work this way and I tire of comments like this by biased people.
The OS has a bigger overhead, it can NOT be faster than XP unless your XP was configured incorrectly, PERIOD.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Allador]

The indexing service in Vista thrashes the disk at all times, even though it's supposed to do it only during idle times, my drive is constantly thrashing about and distinctively impacting performance of opening applications.

This is a known bug that affects some portion of people, but its not typical.

My indexing service thrashed the drive for about a day after setup, since then the drive is silent 80% of the time.

By definition, if the indexing service is constantly running, but your files arent constantly changing, then something is wrong.

The OS has a bigger overhead, it can NOT be faster than XP unless your XP was configured incorrectly, PERIOD.

Depends what you mean.

If the XP was on low-end equipment, and the Vista is on high end equipment, then its easy for that to be true.

My Vista Business x64 box is much faster than many low-end XP boxes.

But I think what most folk mean is the snappiness and robustness of the desktop.

Unlike XP, where every little network blip would hang the shell, which would block and hange the entire desktop, Vista's desktop is smooth, NEVER hangs, never tears, and never slows down.

Its noticeably more performant under high disk load than XP was.

High disk activity on XP would bring the shell of a dual-core system to a halt on XP. Not so on Vista, even under very high load its barely noticeable.

I think thats what most people mean when they say Vista is faster.

(Mind you, my laptop is a C2D2.4, 4GB of memory, with a fast drive subsystem, and an Nvidia Quadro mobility with 512MB of real onboard memory, so its pretty leading edge power for a laptop, and of course Vista will be fast on this box.)

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[AbRASiON]

But I think what most folk mean is the snappiness and robustness of the desktop.

Unlike XP, where every little network blip would hang the shell, which would block and hange the entire desktop, Vista's desktop is smooth, NEVER hangs, never tears, and never slows down.

I completely and utterly disagree.
Infact I've made specific posts about this on shacknews.com and here - I do not believe for an instant that Microsoft has updated the 'under the hood' explorer engine in years upon years, the skin and look yes but the under the hood stuff is just as stuffed as it always was.
I deal with it in XP but Vista seems slower due to 'UI fluffyness'
The same ridiculous things which hung XP still hang Vista, be it inserting a CDROM or opening Explorer with permenantly mapped network drives (which happen to be missing) the behaviour is so similar, down to the millisecond that I'm convinced the 'core engine' is identical, the only difference is XP's renders faster because the UI isn't so shitty and bloated.

Infact, Vista is slower, I can right click on my computer and chose manage on XP it opens in under 1 second, Vista can take up to 3 seconds - that's a huge difference on a 3.2ghz quad core machine with 4gb of ram

High disk activity on XP would bring the shell of a dual-core system to a halt on XP. Not so on Vista, even under very high load its barely noticeable.

Again, disagree vehemently - if anything Vista is known for it's poor disk performance.
The last OS which had excellent disk performance was 98, as it didn't support NTFS
As a 'hard disk guru / wanker' I can assure you there's an overhead of about 15% when working with NTFS - 98 was bloody quick with FAT32, disk to disk transfers were astounding, the same machine with XP or 2k was the same speed (roughly) under FAT32 but NTFS, not so much - it was definitely noticable.

Vista is the first NTFS OS I've seen which reduced disk performance even more than 2k / XP - it's simply 'diddling' with my stuff all the time and reducing it more - hell they had to patch it to increase disk performance!

Crazy claim, then again it's your opinion.

(Mind you, my laptop is a C2D2.4, 4GB of memory, with a fast drive subsystem, and an Nvidia Quadro mobility with 512MB of real onboard memory, so its pretty leading edge power for a laptop, and of course Vista will be fast on this box.)

Asus board with P35 chipset, 4gb of DDR2 800 ram, 3.2ghz quad core intel, 7200rpm SATA II drives with 166gb per platter - even the swap file is set to a different physical disk, trust me I'm a disk nazi.

Ultimately we can debate forever, Vista's performance is the lowest worry I have, it's that ridiculously awkward explorer interface which shits me off, this thread infact is damn near convincing me to make a "why I hate Vista" youtube video - I might do it this weekend.

Windows Vista Explorer is absoloute rubbish.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[KlausBreuer]

There's a different reason for me to not touch Vista (next to the fact the our entire company (60+) is refusing to use Vista and thus the entire software we use and sell is being ported to Linux):

It is SLOW because MS listened nice and hard to the RIAA and encodes *everything*. HD -> encode -> CPU -> encode -> Videocard, nonsense like that. Apparently in the hope that 'theft' of CD and DVD would decline.

I refuse to have my PCs capabilities lowered for reasons like those. Yes, I have a massively powerful computer, easily capable of handling Vista. Yes, I want all that processing power. No, I am not going to waste it on security for a small part of the industry, which also has the habit of treating everybody like terrorists.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[hedgomatic]

Actually I disabled the new translucent window manager effects, and my memory consumption is maybe 10m more than it was with XP.

When I first bought my new laptop a few months back, I thought having Vista pre-installed was going to be a horror show. I actually quite like the embedded search in the start bar and the loading effects on standard windows, though the control panel is a bit of a frigging nightmare right now.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the exact description of my experience with Vista on my laptop. I average about two BSODs a week, spend more time than I'd have thought possible waiting for it to complete an action (anything from opening a program to a simple right-click) and startup and shutdown both take even longer... well, it's all in your quote there.

I initially worried that my computer itself was to blame (I've had it about 8 months) and had it checked over by my IT guy, who also concluded that Vista was the source of the problems. I have to say that I wasn't madly in love with my old computer's XP, but that monster had half the RAM of this laptop and a Pentium III processor, and ran at least twice as fast -- and I can count on one hand the system crashes in the three years I had it.

If I'm not comparing Vista to Windows ME, that may only be because I have never worked with ME.

Re:special favors

[geogob]

Speaking of which, if you fail at getting it and wish to install XP yourself, you'll probably have to change your weekend plans anyway.

apparently...

[eyebum]

getting XP for your web server isn't hard to do at all...

Re:apparently...

[BlackSnake112]

Why would you want XP (home/desktop OS) for a web server? Wouldn't you want an OS that is a server one?

bothers not to say

[Anonymous Coward]

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/073812010e0516a4?

So, in the Windows world....

[Trelane]

XP is as easy to get (pre-installed or retail) as Linux, and Vista has worse app and hardware support than Linux.

Interesting times indeed.

"Christopher Null"? Really?

[sootman]

Must be hell. Does he have a brother named Bobby Tables?

Re:"Christopher Null"? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does he have a brother named Bobby Tables?

Of course not. Why would his brother have a different surname? His brother is the well-known "Dave Null".

What The..

[stretchpuppy]

Who the heck on /. still buys PCs from vendors?

Wasn't building your own computer the next step after learning to not shit your diapers?

Re:What The..

[Jasonjk74]

Who the heck on /. still buys PCs from vendors?

So, how's that homemade laptop coming along?

Re:What The..

[Allador]

This is only good when you're young, in school, in a very junior technical position at work, or havent been doing this stuff for 10+ years.

Or if gaming is the primary use you make of your computer.

It doesnt take long for the value of your time to be worth sooo much more than the value of your dollars.

At that point, you just buy high quality equipment (ie, corporate class equipment), and let someone else worry about it. You've got more important things in your life to worry about than building your own white box.

Not to mention the relative level of crappiness of white box laptops.

Building computers are something thats fun while you're still new enough that its powerful and exciting, and when you can still take pride in your craftmanship, but not old enough to have done it so many hundreds of thousands of times over that its so boring and pointless.

Downgrade Procedure

[RandoX]

But I've made it perfectly obvious that I don't want Vista!

Or....

[Real1tyCzech]

OR... you could just walk into wal-mart and pick one up. I saw no less than 6 of them there advertised as "loaded with XP Home Edition".

As usual, the Anti-MSFT trolls are making much ado about nuthin'....

What does it take?

[snarfies]

If they refuse to sell it to you, I guess you'll have to obtain it through alternate means. You tried to do the right and honorable thing, but...

Re:What does it take?

[^_^x]

Seriously. I bought my last copy of XP so it would be worry-free, but if I got a new PC and they wouldn't sell it to me... well, I'm getting it one way or the other!

WinXP Classic

[Darkk]

Be funny if Microsoft changed their minds again in a few months and instead of using the original name they put "Classic" in it just like Coke-Cola Classic.

WinXP Pro = Old Coke
Vista = New Coke

XP in VMWare on 64-bit Vista

[c0d3r]

Vista failed to run most of my legacy software, especially VS.NET on my 64-bit vista machine. I had to install VMWare Workstation (had to pay for this because 64-bit vista requires signed drivers) and configured it to use half of my RAM and to use one CPU core. I picked up XP for system builders pretty cheap and it installed flawlessly. It's pretty stable, and being 64-bit, you can exceed 4 GB of ram, and I find my self having Vista always running without shutting down, and just sleeping or hibernating and having an instant on experience all the time. With more RAM and cores, I can concurrently run LINUX as well. Otherwise, the only place I could find a laptop with XP in LA was across the street from Vista Ford on Ventura Blvd. What's interesting, is if you make a U turn up the hill by there, medina road is at the top of the hill. (Bill Gates lives in Medina, WA).

Re:XP in VMWare on 64-bit Vista

[Allador]

I had to install VMWare Workstation (had to pay for this because 64-bit vista requires signed drivers)

Not sure what this means. Free VMWare server and player install just fine on Vista Business x64, no need to pay for VMWare workstation.

Re:XP in VMWare on 64-bit Vista

[c0d3r]

This must be something new, or I must have done something wrong, but some signed driver issue forced me to buy vmware workstation in order to install on Vista Ultimate x64 it was pretty cheap, and I think it was worth it, because now I can map it to individual cores (unsure if you can do this with vmware server).

Do it yourself!!!!!

[Djdatlondon]

What's the big deal? Just put xp on it yourself! It only requires additional drivers and most manufacturers have xp drivers on their websites. Being a pc repairman, I've downgraded at least 60 vista laptops to xp and countless desktops, All with complete ease.

It's a bigger leap than that.

[argent]

Vista is about as big of a leap as going from virgin XP to XP SP2.

Vista is in many ways a bigger leap than going from NT3 to NT4 or Windows 2000 to XP.

It's got a whole new set of user interface controls that are unarguably worse than what they replaced, and you can't go back. There's no "go back to menus" option: you can bring them back, sort of, in some applications... but not all. Windows hasn't had that happen since... hmm. Microsoft hasn't tried to remove a fundamental user interface control from Windows ever, so far as I can recall. And that's just on the surface... the deep changes are even bigger and nastier (and completely inappropriate for a professional OS, too).

I still haven't made the leap from 2000 to XP at home. The only reason I'd do that would be if the alternative was Vista. There's no reason not to stick with XP indefinitely other than "Microsoft is forcing us to switch".

Re:It's a bigger leap than that.

[Colonel Korn]

It's got a whole new set of user interface controls that are unarguably worse than what they replaced, and you can't go back. There's no "go back to menus" option: you can bring them back, sort of, in some applications... but not all.

I'm not sure what you mean. You can run a UI that's pretty much identical to XP if you want, though to do so you'll need to dedicate about 5 minutes to internet searches to find the free tools to do things like restoring normal menus and the XP style buttons (like the navigate up one directory button). I installed Vista a couple months ago, set it up to work like Win2k in about 20 minutes, and since then I've slowly been relaxing some of my objections to new UI elements.

Like XP, Vista by default has some different UI elements when compared to the previous Windows release. I'm finding that some of the Vista changes, unlike XP's, are actually worth using (the breadcrumbs thing is actually not bad, while the "common tasks" crap in XP never was worthwhile).

Re:It's a bigger leap than that.

[argent]

to do so you'll need to dedicate about 5 minutes to internet searches to find the free tools to do things like restoring normal menus and the XP style buttons

I spent half an hour trying to find all the hooks necessary to defang it... not just the UI elements, but also the deeper issues I commented on... and to restore the classic Windows appearance. Perhaps, since then, people have created more tools... but I wasn't able to take care of more than a fraction of the problems... but even if it's possible to restore a more professional environment now, it's certainly more than the equivalent of going from XP to XP SP2, which was the comparison I was objecting to!

Perhaps you could put up a FAQ listing the steps you took?

And, honestly, it's a bigger change than going from 2000 to XP: Most of the new user interface elements in XP, you see, can be eliminated without third-party software by changing Microsoft's settings. Classic toolbar, classic start menu, classic browser windows, classic desktop theme, classic control panel. I don't even *know* what the '"common tasks" crap' in XP is, apparently my initial poking around managed to hide it completely.

It takes...

[EddyPearson]

A computer with [insert OS here] on and a BitTorrent client.

Discontinue a product line against the advice of your customer base and they'll find new ways of getting what they want.

Re:The Death of M$

[Anonymous Coward]

I did a quick google and found nothing, care to expand on this? I'm interested.

liar liar

[WwWonka]

"Christopher Null tried to buy a computer with Windows XP pre-installed on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib."

...like saying that you actually WANT Windows on your machine?

Boxed retail copy?

[edmicman]

Why all the fuss about buying a new computer with XP preinstalled? To anyone who actually cares about XP vs Vista (Joe Consumer is probably just going to take Vista or whatever, and doesn't care), don't you already have tons of copies of XP already around?

Why not just order a boxed retail copy of XP and be done with it? You can always install it on whatever PC you have at the moment (as long as it's your only PC with it installed, right?), and you don't have to care about what comes preinstalled ever again.

Re:Boxed retail copy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they don't want to buy a computer loaded with Vista, and then buy a second copy of windows (this one XP) to install on it.

Re:Boxed retail copy?

[X0563511]

Then your real solution is to buy the computer, and fight for a refund for the preinstalled OS. Claim you do not agree with the ELUA. They HAVE to take it back.

Of course, if you could get a machine with no OS installed, the above point would be moot.

where can I get a PC with a 300bd internal modem?

[wardk]

I want to maximize my windows experience

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who really cares? You usually have to reload after you receive the machine to get rid of all the crappy software they preinstall anyway. Just pirate an old copy and be done with it.

No problem with this in the UK....

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the UK, I regularly buy HP Business Desktops and Notebooks - a large number of these come with XP Pro pre-installed and Vista Business on a CD, although it's not consistent as some come the other way round, Vista Business pre-installed, XP Pro on a disc. I am NOT a corporate customer nor do I use OLP to buy these.
In fact, here's an example, courtesy of a website that any consumer can buy from: http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=5125&SearchType=1&SearchTerms=dx2400&PageMode=3&SearchKey=All&SearchMode=All&NavigationKey=0

I searched for xp on dell's website

[thebear05]

Search for xp on dell's website and you can get a pc with vista and xp pre-installed and both media http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/winxp_inspndt?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

Easy

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Buy a computer
2. Open its pre-installed web browser
3. Type www.piratebay.org
...
N. Microsoft - no profit!!!

Strange policies

[residieu]

According to gateway:

"You have to upgrade to Vista Ultimate and then you can do the downgrade," he said--but I'd have to perform the installation myself, and I'd have to buy the software from another source.

So if he has to buy an XP disk himself anyway, why does he need to upgrade to Ultimate? Do lesser versions of Vista bind themselvse to the machine so they can't be wiped and replaced with XP?

Re:Strange policies

[Todd Knarr]

No, only Vista Business and Ultimate OEM versions come with the right to downgrade to XP. Note that you don't have to buy XP, you just have to get access to XP installation media and do the activation over the phone.

Is this irony or what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to lie to get the OS I want from the most corrupt corporation on earth?

My main concern is ease of dual-booting

[grandpa-geek]

I run all my systems dual/multi boot with Windows and Linux (often more than one version, e.g., both Centos and Ubuntu). I keep a Windows partition because I occasionally find it useful. I usually squash the Windows partition down to about a quarter or less of the hard drive. That was easy to do with XP and either Partition Magic or its open source equivalents.

Vista does its own partition management (similar to Linux LVM) but limits the reduction in its partition to 50%.

I wouldn't mind getting Vista pre-loaded if the partition was sized to a quarter of the drive (allowing me to further reduce it as low as 12.5%). Dell offered custom partitioning at one time but no longer offers it. When I asked about that for a laptop, they suggested buying Ubuntu preloaded, which they offer on only two laptops.

I would much prefer having an option for Linux pre-loaded on everything. I'm equally concerned about issues like HP voiding the warranty on machines where the user has repartitioned and loaded Linux.

Perhaps customer resistance to the demise of XP will push PC makers to include pre-loaded Linux as an option.

Joe Consumer wants XP...

[argent]

To anyone who actually cares about XP vs Vista (Joe Consumer is probably just going to take Vista or whatever, and doesn't care), don't you already have tons of copies of XP already around?

1. Joe Consumer wants XP. I recently directed a "Joe Consumer" friend of mine through the steps needed to get a laptop with XP on it, because that's what he wanted.

2. I don't have "tons of copies" of XP around. Just Windows 2000. I've already been through this with XP, and still haven't seen a compelling reason to upgrade other than "Microsoft wants to force me to". Unfortunately it looks like my next Wintendo is going to be a choice between XP and Vista, thanks to drivers that refuse to install on Windows 2000.

3. Yes, I absolutely have no problem rewarding Microsoft by paying four times as much for retail XP Pro because they think DRM is a really nifty idea (that's sarcasm, by the way, if you're American or otherwise obsessively literal minded).

Re:Joe Consumer wants XP...

[Scott Francis[Mecham]

I'm in the same boat. I have a single 2K disc from long ago, and my ancient system(Sempron 1700, 768M, and a GeForce4 Ti)'s been trundling along just fine, thank you. However, thanks to incidents like this this , 2000 apparently won't cut it any more, even for low-budget games with no extra hardware requirements.
Games based on Microsoft's touted XNA won't even work, again due to "we don't see a point in allowing 2k", even though the same versions of .NET work just fine in 2k.

Simple...

[Kaptain Kruton]

...A cd burner and access to ThePirateBay.

NO, I've not RTFA - It requires a sign-up!

[janrinok]

Is it too much to ask that the topic under discussion, i.e. TFA, should not require each /.er to sign up to the site in question?

Re:NO, I've not RTFA - It requires a sign-up!

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.bugmenot.com/view/pcworld.idg.com.au

also available : https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6349

I Was @ Fry's Yesterday

[tunapez]

Had I known, I would have picked you up a copy... OEM or full-retail? Home, MCE, Pro? They have all in stock, but I must admit I didn't notice any x64 versions...no worries your 64 x2 system ain't 64 bit compatible anyway. I did note all flavors are up in price(>$10) compared to a month ago. Gone for good but still profitable, go figure.

That's easy

[Spassoklabanias]

Kill Bill

Your sig

[dotancohen]

Totally OT, but after reading your sig:

If you're reading this, then I'm very bored at work. Then again, so are you.

I am really surprised that it didn't end with "Lets go fuck.".

Re:Your sig

[neokushan]

Oh go on then.

Re:Your sig

[dotancohen]

Oh go on then.

Nice. I see I've made my contribution to society for the day. Hope you get laid.

Like the ones WHERE?

[badpazzword]

That sounds like ages better than your average PC place.

So, where do you live again? :D

Re:Like the ones WHERE?

[dapsychous]

Oh, pretty much anywhere. I live in a backwater two-horse town in Tennessee and there's four of them here.

Seriously, it's not hard. Just avoid the branded systems and have one built. You should be doing that anyway.

...and for the love of God, Allah, Buddha, Xenu, Science, or whatever, don't buy a Dell.

Re:Like the ones WHERE?

[badpazzword]

We're flooded with shitty Acer laptops here in the whereabouts of Milan. It's such a level of 'fail' it's not even funny.

Re:Like the ones WHERE?

[Lost Engineer]

Yeah but they're Ferrari laptops. Winnar.

I hear that linux is still easy to get

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard that linux was still pretty easy to get.

Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

you could of course walk in to walmart and still buy an emachines preloaded with XP for less than $300

Pot Kettle

[VirginMary]

> Your not really well with grammar, much less anything.

"Your"??? What was that about grammar again?

Re:Pot Kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

**whoosh**

Re:Pot Kettle

[Anonymous Coward]

"Your"??? What was that about grammar again?

Surely this must be a sarchasm

Activation?

[Anonymous Coward]

And what if MS decide not to activate that XP license?

Re:Activation?

[Toby_Tyke]

Then under UK law, you would be entitled to a full refund from the retailer, as per the Sale of Goods act. No arguing, no question. Goods sold by a retailer must be fit for purpose. Obviously, a copy of windows you can't install is hardly fit for purpose ( I know, I know, it's not fit for purpose anyway).

Re:Activation?

[IdeaMan]

You ... activate Windows? What are you, a heathen?
Hand in your geek card.

Re:That's a *monopoly* for you

[dwandy]

Interesting pick, the XJ220, 'cause the way I read it, the XJ220 is Jaguar's Vista except that Jaguar isn't a monopoly that could force everyone to buy this over-priced turd.

So we see in this example the difference - when you're a monopoly, you sell crap and people have no choice. Jaguar on the other hand had trouble unloading their stock, and I'm sure people with half-a-million bucks to blow on car simply went and got Porche's, Ferrari's etc instead...

So to simply state that you can't buy an old model car is missing part of the point. I'm going to suggest that had the car sold well, it could well still be available today. Porsche has been making the 911 for many years and will make it for many more since it sells very well. Ford (for reasons beyond me) tried to replace the Mustang with the Probe and the outcry from the public resulted in the return of the Mustang - now you can't buy the Probe. Coke tried New Coke, today we pretty much have Coke.

There's plenty of examples in industry where successful companies respond to customer demand and sell them what they want, and when the company goes off the path they actually listen to their customers. This is because they have to compete with other companies offering customers an alternative.

Lucky for Microsoft they don't have such baggage to worry about. ...and this goes for most of the other examples I'm reading here like cell-phone and internet service providers. The lack of competition leaves a lot of power in the hands of the company to do what it wants instead of providing what the customer is demanding.

Doesn't matter if it's "not for resale"

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC, the EULA on regular copies of Windows allows for resale. The EULA on an OEM doesn't--hence the cheaper price if you buy it on its own--but more importantly a Dell OEM disc only works on that specific model Dell.

How to purchase a PC with XP in 5 easy steps

[dontmakemethink]

1. Go to computer store
2. Choose the components that suit your needs with the assistance of the store staff
3. Either build it yourself or have the shop build it for you
4. Purchase Windows XP
5. Install it or have the shop install it

I find it implausible that people who understand PC's well enough to choose XP instead of Vista can't build their own box. Ordering a pre-built PC is like saying "surprise me" when asked what toppings you want on your pizza.

Re:How to purchase a PC with XP in 5 easy steps

[Allador]

This is only doable for generic desktop systems, and for people with more time than money.

If you need a quality laptop, or dont have the time to go futzing around with that stuff, then the tier-1's (hp, dell, lenovo) are quite good, as long as you stick to corporate class equipment.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with building your own, but dont assume everyone's life is like yours. For many of us, taking the time to do this would be a collosal expense, and not even remotely worth it.

For example, I've got a beautiful HP Compaq 8710w laptop here. It's super thin, light (for a 17"), and an order of magnitude higher quality than I would ever have the time to build by hand.

Re:How to purchase a PC with XP in 5 easy steps

[dontmakemethink]

Fair enough. I run a quad-core Opteron audio rig with three monitors. I only use my laptop on tour or on the can, and I'm constantly cursing the keyboard layout and limited screen.

And it sucks to have the OEM cost of Vista built into new systems, but frankly it's worth paying that again so you don't have to use it!

The fib

[Anonymous Coward]

Sales person: That's one Windows XP, right? May I have your name, please?
Christopher Null: Christopher Null
Sales person: Uhh.. there seems to be a problem with our system. I get this strange pointer exception.
Christopher Null: Maybe you mistyped my last name? It's N-o-e-l.
Sales person: Ah, there you go! Have a nice day.

Broken Link?

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried following the link but the page didn't load.
However I think the link itself is wrong.
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php?id=1496591483
should be the right location.

ha.

[Kingrames]

If his name is Null, that's the least of his problems.

What does it take ?

[smoker2]

BDSM tendencies ?

Buy local!

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in a local computer store in the state of washington. Do you know what our #1 question is from customers? "Do you still sell computers with XP?"

Our statistics are as follows:
for 2007 we sold 20 copies of windows sold, 19 were xp and 1 was vista. That's 95%! You tell me microsoft is listening to their customers? BULL! Their customers are the businesses calling us up to get 30-packs of OEM XP before December.

Dell, HP, and whoever else microsoft has in their pocket, won't even support a vista laptop that's been converted to XP. We're not asking for much, just a driver or two, but they just say "unsupported on that model".

People BUY XP?

[steveaustin1971]

I'm shocked that anyone actually purchases XP for home use...

That's EULA for you

[tepples]

The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of.

So have End User License Agreements. The finding of law in MDY v. Blizzard is that a person subject to an End User License Agreement may not be "the owner of a copy" under United States copyright law. Only "the owner of a copy", not a person in possession of a rented copy, enjoys the copyright limitations under 17 USC sections 109 (exhaustion of exclusive distribution right after first sale) and 117 (right to copy programs during execution).

Just in case you aren't kidding...

[ZxCv]

How about just not using it? Many, many people have gotten along just fine without XP, and you can do it too!

You aren't entitled to XP, so if Microsoft doesn't want to license it to you, you're up shit creek without a paddle. Or, you should be, at least. In the long run, you'll probably thank them for it anyway.

But why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would anyone want to buy an almost ten year old operating system?

Re:But why?

[Nathrael]

Because it works better than the more recent one of it's product line?

So Buy an HP workstation

[symbolset]

They don't even have a Vista option. They're all Vista licensed "with Windows XP Professional custom installed." Prices from <$600 to over $8k. No, I don't work for HP.

The answer surprisingly seems to be "yes"

[Fallen Andy]

I see a lot of new notebook machines with Vista (and the usual crapware bundle - no names mentioned but you can guess). Often, with Greek Vista. Quite a few requests to ahem upgrade to English XP - and not just because it's English. You see many first time users were already using XP in an internet cafe environment - and also want Yahoo Messenger, Skype etc. installed.

I've yet to see *any* internet cafe running Vista. The difference might be trivial to most slashdotters but Joe Public finds *any* change difficult.

(I'm in Athens, Greece).

Andy

Re:The Death of M$

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a feeling I'm going to read a serious post about "Vista sending encrypted communications to General Electric" on an offtopic section of one of the Linux forums, probably ubuntuforums.org, at some point over the coming weeks.

Null Pointer Exception

[sheepweevil]

He got one at first, but when he typed in his last name for registration purposes, XP crashed!

Re:The Death of M$

[maxume]

Yeah, well, so much the better.

XP as a selling point

[pherthyl]

I was leafing through the local newspaper and saw a dell flyer where they prominently displayed a star inset proclaiming that one could get a Free Downgrade to XP!

I thought it was kind of funny that a downgrade to an officially obsolete OS was a big selling feature, bigger even than the actual specs of the machines.

Assurance that */Linux has a driver

[tepples]

Go to pricewatch.com and check the 'laptops, no OS' section or google for 'laptop barebones'. They'll all be the original brands, Clevo, Compal, Asus, etc, and not the reseller brands, Sony, Dell, HP, etc. But it'll be the same thing and cost less. What you get with the big names is 1: a support phone line, 2: the exact same laptop with a brand name sticker strangers will respect you for being able to afford and, of course 3: Windows.

4: Assurance that the operating system that you plan to install contains drivers for the hardware in the laptop. Is there a way to exclude laptops from pricewatch's results that contain a major component (e.g. accelerated video, WLAN, Bluetooth) with no */Linux support?

Couldn't be done

[BanjoBob]

I bought a new HP Pavilion with Vista on it for my business and tried for weeks to get a downgrade to XP Pro. The purchase was made before the end of the offer by Microsoft. Microsoft said I had to contact HP. HP said they didn't offer it. The vendor said to call Microsoft. I even called the regional Microsoft sales office. It wan't going to happen.

Everybody had their own reasons why it couldn't be done. Some people said it wouldn't work on the PC I bought. Microsoft said they "may" be able to do it if I upgraded to Vista Ultimate first. No guarantee though. HP tech support lied so much that I lost all respect for HP.

It didn't matter that this was a business system for a business and a business use. It didn't matter what the reasons were. Nobody cared because nobody offered this service. Nobody.

At every turn, I was told I had to pay full retail for XP Pro in order to get the free downgrade. Nobody was the provider of the XP downgrade. HP wouldn't do it, Microsoft wouldn't do it, the computer store wouldn't do it. Nobody.

So while this was advertised repeatedly and I was told multiple times by various people, not one of them could tell me how to accomplish this insurmountable task. I searched /. and other sites on the web and found a lot of people saying it could be done. I didn't find one article telling me *how* it could be done.

Now the time has passed and I'm stuck with Vista that crashes constantly (BSOD), won't run 35% of my existing software, can't get any media stuff to work right (no documentation from HP), ...

I've pulled the drive to save it and I've put a new one on the system to run Linux with. After a lot of searching, I've located most drivers. If I can get the same business functionality out of Linux, then Windows is history in my shop. I am also considering a Mac solution.

Since so much of our software is "incompatible" with Vista, we will have buy all new anyway. This makes the cost of hardware or OS trivial and inconsequential. The application suites are what cost the most -- not the box and OS. Mac may just win out because of this.

Some things Microsoft and HP did just to be plain mean...
1. Won't let you recover files from a windows 2000 dynamic disk
      (put disk in old system and transfer the data via the ethernet)
2. Won't let you add language packs without Ultimate.
      (download the Windows Server 8000 packs for free)
3. Default settings are to notify HP and/or MS about everything
      (wade through all this nonsense and disable it all)

Anyway, without a viable XP option, a non-windows solution is the best option.

Re:Couldn't be done

[Allador]

I bought a new HP Pavilion with Vista on it for my business and tried for weeks to get a downgrade to XP Pro.

There's your first problem. You bought a consumer level POC for your business.

It didn't matter that this was a business system for a business and a business use.

An HP Pavilion system is NOT a business system. It's the same garbage you buy at best buy. Business sytems from HP are all numbers, or labelled with the Compaq brand.

Since so much of our software is "incompatible" with Vista, we will have buy all new anyway. This makes the cost of hardware or OS trivial and inconsequential. The application suites are what cost the most -- not the box and OS. Mac may just win out because of this.

If your software is incompatible with Vista, then why are you buying Vista? Didnt you do any research at all before buying Vista equipment?

Why didnt you buy a piece of equipment that comes with XP? Before 2.5 weeks ago, the only systems on the planet that you couldnt get XP on were consumer level systems. Nearly ALL business class systems come with XP, either only before June 30th, or with Vista included after. ...

It sounds to me like you werent doing your research before buying IT equipment. Is this your business (ie, an owner) or are you an employee?

Did you consult with your IT folks (either in-house or consultants) before doing this to get their experienced and expert opinions?

It's one thing for consumers to get caught in this crap, but if its for a business, you need to do your due diligence and not just buy the first random thing you see at Best Buy. If you dont have the knowledge to do so, then find a local IT consultancy that will help you out.

The vast majority of the latter will give you quick guidance over the phone for free on this kind of thing, in the hope of future service contracts or project work. ...

There's just alot of self-righteous rage there for a business user. Consumers are okay to get all pissed off when they got duped by the local Best Buy. But in a business capacity, you need to do your due diligence, and figure out what the right thing is before spending the time and money.

Re:How is this difficult? VirtualBox...

[davidsyes]

Put them on PCLinuxOS or Mandriva and VirtualBox, with the latest KDE/Compiz or Metisse, and there, voila! Flashy stuff, with more than one instance of windows running, with LAN access...

Now, maybe VirtualBox might mitigate some of their drivers issues, and give you and your IT staff and the company a reason to brag about Linux.

What I like in KDE Control/Kcontrol is turning off the vendor them, changing the login icon image, adding pics to the changing background, and letting the login screen do its thing. Or, turning on and locking the screen saver, showing off kdesktop....

What does it take?

[MagickalMyst]

What does it take to get a PC with XP? Piracy.

Sony (at the moment)

[Zadaz]

I purchased a Sony laptop two weeks ago as a home user. It came with Vista installed, but included XP install DVDs at no extra cost.

No it's not pre-installed but it's a hands free 20 minutes install. You would spend that long uninstalling all the crap the vendor put on it anyway.

Speaking of which... Pleasantly Sony also offers the "no preinstalled crap" option for free.

I'll sell you one.

[urbanriot]

No, seriously, I'm a small OEM / Var / System Builder in Canada and almost ALL my clients are requesting Windows XP Professional. I'd say about 30% of my market is Vista. It's not that hard, Microsoft has finally updated our skus, opk and media to Windows XP SP3 to it's not that hard to provide you with what you need. And our OPK automated installation set hasn't changed in years, so it's probably easier and cheaper for us to offer you XP.

Options

[Anonymous Coward]

Vista Business and Vista Ultimate allow you to use downgrade rights to have XP Pro installed.

The other option is to see if they will sell you a PC with XP Pro DSP installed.

Microsoft did not take these options away from OEM builders, only the right to sell systems built with OEM COA's on them.

FYI, XP Pro DSP will be a little more expensive than OEM XP.

So this is the new..

[Idaho]

So I guess this is the new "What does it take to get a PC with Linux [pre-installed]", 2008 revision?

Heh. Figures.

Been searching and this is my dilema

[yakkie]

I keep my laptops a long time so am willing to purchase the ridiculous license for XP Pro pre-installed with a CD of Vista upgrade, but... Since I keep my machines a long time (5+ years), I want the most memory I can get... ..... and that memory (expandable to 8 gigs) is only available on the "Vista Only" models. There are some other problems with the XP/vista machines, some do not have wireless n protocol for their network cards, etc. Seems like the machines having the dual option are not the top of the line workhorses like I need. When I spoke to Dell people about it, I was first interrogated about why I don't want Vista and then told I don't need more than 4 gigs of memory for an XP box. Same at the other major manufacturers. I felt I was a candidate for a re-education gulag. I may need to upgrade to Vista eventually, but not now, not as Vista exists now. I WANT XP PRO and I WANT AT LEAST 8 GIGS!

Re:Been searching and this is my dilema

[Allador]

Dont buy Dell for that class of Laptops. They dont serve that specific market well.

But HP does.

Go to http://www.hp.com/

Click on the Notebooks & Tablets link in Small & Medium Business tab on their website front page (at least in the US).

Then click on the 'Performance' notebooks links.

Every single one of those supports 8GB of ram, 802.11abgn cards, and Vista/XP both in the box.

Then go back and click on the 'Balanced Mobility Notebooks'. Nearly half of these support 8gb, all support 802.11abgn, and Vista/XP.

HP specializes in 'engineering workstation laptops' for folks running x64 windows and very high-memory-use cad/cam/cae use.

I'm writing this from an HP Compaq 8710w, and its literally the best laptop I've ever owned (C2D2.4, 4GB memory, Nvidia Quadro w/ 512mb, fast hdd, intel 802.11abgn, very nice 17" widescreen). The Dell's are great for vanilla corporate road warrios who spend most of their time in MS Office, Outlook, and the institutional apps. They're a great mid-level vendor for corporate laptops (latitudes).

But HP is the best, IME, in the high-end laptops.

Good luck!

PS, you're going to get financially pwned to put 8GB of ram in your laptop. Nearly every laptop on the planet only has 2 memory slots, so you're forced to buy 2x4GB chips, which is going to be very expensive.

May be better off to get 1x4GB now, or better yet, 2x2GB, and just be prepared to put bigger sticks in there 2-3 years from now when the 4gb sticks are much cheaper.

Re:Been searching and this is my dilema

[yakkie]

Thanks. Notice some sites charged extra to have 2mg of RAM put in one slot, rather than 1 mg in 2 slots. UUUGGGGHHHH!!!

Re:That's a *monopoly* for you

[Anonymous Coward]

I was under the impression that New Coke was created as a diversion while they switched Coke from cane sugar to corn syrup

Ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

For years people were trying to get machines without XP to avoid the "Microsoft tax".

What a silly question!

[Aphoxema]

What does it take to get a PC with XP?

TPB and Pricewatch. Doesn't everyone know that?

No... God no.

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's the case for gifts, where you've paid money for something, the case for right of resale would be even stronger.

When you buy something you enter into a contract with the seller. The courts have upheld that as long as you have the opportunity to return the item, EULAs are valid tools to extend that contract.

With a gift there is no contract, just a guy using the mail service to impose a burden upon you of dealing with this new property. He has no legal basis to attempt to impose contract terms upon you. This was the basis of the ruling, if you would like to read it.

I sympathize with your reasoning, and wish EULAs weren't validated as they were, but since you are factually wrong in this case you probably shouldn't be +5. Mod parent down.

TAC engineer -- Avoid Vista at all costs

[Anonymous Coward]

TAC Escalations, posting anonymously to save my job.

There's been blood all over the walls with Vista, can't tell you the hours of pain and misery that damn misbegotten piece of crap has caused. It'd be faster to talk about the things that aren't broken, but I can't think of any.

It's so bad my next computer will be my first Mac, and I don't think I'm stylish enough for it...

Re:XP is slashdotted. Here is a mirror:

[maestroX]

piratebay. :-)

Re:XP is slashdotted. Here is a mirror:

[maestroX]

Funny, interesting or informative? I'm so excited!! -- Where's my meds.

Doesn't Dell care about home users?

[dpbsmith]

I just don't get it. I know that Microsoft doesn't regard end-users as their customers, so I'm not surprised when Microsoft doesn't listen to end-users.

But doesn't Dell consider home users to be desirable customers?

What exactly is so hard about the idea of listening to what customers are asking for, and giving them what they want?

More to the point, why don't home users get the same consideration that business users get? Does Dell secretly not want to sell to home users? Is this this new thing of trying to get rid of your less profitable customers by deliberately pissing them off?

Re:Doesn't Dell care about home users?

[Todd Knarr]

It's not Dell. When Dell calls up Microsoft to get XP licenses, MS responds "Sorry, no.". Backed up by the threat "If we find you getting OEM XP from anybody else, you lose all volume licensing for all Microsoft products. Vista, Office, everything. You try bypassing us, you get to pay full retail price for all of it. And we'll deactivate any keys we can associate with you, and tell your customers their copy was pirated and leave you to clean up the PR mess.".

And Dell has to suck it up and take it, because they can't afford to not sell computers with some form of Windows on them and they can't compete with other vendors if they've got to tack on an additional $300 or more to the price of every system (and their margins aren't enough to let them absorb that kind of additional cost).

Re:Doesn't Dell care about home users?

[Allador]

More to the point, why don't home users get the same consideration that business users get? Does Dell secretly not want to sell to home users? Is this this new thing of trying to get rid of your less profitable customers by deliberately pissing them off?

It's not so much that home users get screwed in this, its that people who dont know any better get screwed in this.

Home users can trivially buy business class equipment from Dell, HP, Lenovo, and get XP right now.

The biggest thing is that the vast majority of home users dont know any better, so they get hit with this.

Now why THAT is, I dont know. There must be some marketing or market-dev folks out there who think that having XP and Vista both offered would confuse home users or something.

Re:That's a *monopoly* for you

[Anonymous Coward]

pointing out that "New Coke"â was a marketing/production ploy to fool the tastebuds of millions of people so they could switch from cane to beet sugar seamlessly without people complaining about the taste....feed them crap after you take the real product and change it slightly....then they are all sorts of happy when you reintroduce it, however different it may be...as long as it's close, the people will be happier with it, over the horrid substitute choice you offered them.

Tigerdirect

[rossdee]

Tigerdirect still sells PC's with XP, both desktops and laptops. You can even buy a barebones system with XP (not preinstalled)

They have good prices too.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/

Re:Win95

[Anonymous Coward]

I worked in a computer store when 95 was still new. It was a major sales driver. And again 2 weeks later when they came back to have 3.11 put on instead. 95A was the worst OS MS has ever produced. Going 32 bit must have been a major shakeup ;) Vista is a contender with ME for 2nd place. /Side note: Does Vista still have that old PnP error where a corrupted registry can kill your BIOS settings so you can't even POST? Since it is a design fault in the base PnP concept, I don't see how, but I'm curious. I do know it caused the 'XP machine won't POST after software install' bug.

re: EULAs

[King_TJ]

When I built a PC for my kid's use in her room, I let her click on the "I Agree" buttons on the software licensing agreements during the installation.

Since a minor (age 6) agreed, does that invalidate them?

Just curious....

Pre-made???

[DJ Manning]

You post on /. right? Why are you buying a pre-made computer??? You should be hand building the PC of your dreams and installing whatever OS you want on it. And if the OS of your dreams is a Micro$oft product, I can only hope that it's also your dream to download it via p2p and tell M$ to stick it.

Lovely...

[Anonymous Coward]

Milky Milky

Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[LinuxDon]

You can just purchase a PC with vista business or "higher". Then just install Windows XP on it. When prompted for an activation code, just use a code from another PC.
Then you'll find it often won't activate through the internet, so you call Microsoft on the number displayed on the screen. Then you'll get a representative and you'll them him/her you're downgrading from windows vista business to XP.
On rare occasions they'll ask you for the Windows vista business license code. Next, you'll get the code by phone and just activate it.

We use this procedure all the time on all of our new computers.

Re:Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[suckmysav]

Why do you Windows users think that enduring this sort of shitfight just to install your OS of choice is acceptable?

The mind boggles.

Re:Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[rikkards]

Probably because it is easier to do that than get a wireless nic driver to work with a kernel change.

Re:Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[suckmysav]

pah, I've had several kernel changes in the last 18 months and my wireless nic has worked flawlessly every time.

Go spread your fud elsewhere shillboy.

Re:Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[LinuxDon]

Quote: "Why do you Windows users think that enduring this sort of shitfight just to install your OS of choice is acceptable?"

First, let me inform you that I'm primarily a Linux user and XP (or any other MS OS) is not the OS of my choice in any way. But one of my tasks is keeping workstations running.

Second, the topic is "What does it take to get a PC with XP?" and I (IMHO) explained the easiest procedure for this.

Third, unfortunately there are a lot of client side enterprise applications that aren't available for Linux.

Forth, you're welcome suggesting a better solution.

Fifth, I totally agree with you. But I just had to respond to your post since you referred to me as "you Windows users". I think that vendor lock-in as well as ignorance are the primary reasons for people putting up with this kind of situation.

Server 2008

[funkdancer]

An even more interesting question is, what would it take to get them delivered with Server 2008 (64bit)? This set up as a workstation is just fantastic stuff compared to Vista; even my 3 year old Dell Inspiron 9300 runs the 32 bit with the themes service enabled and Aero just fine, and on my quad core 8GB it is simply flying.

I bought my own Technet license when they were 40% off and that was my way of getting it. It's a shame this OS is so expensive the much more lethargic Vista is the only real route.

Re:Server 2008

[Allador]

An even more interesting question is, what would it take to get them delivered with Server 2008 (64bit)?

Dell probably wont ship it with Server 2008 ... but you can buy your own for the same price. Dell charges ~$700 for Server 2008 standard.

You can also get it here for $680.

Smaller OEMs

[Anonymous Coward]

Smaller OEMs can still buy Windows XP OEM licenses from their vendors until January, 11 of 2009. Don't hold me to that date, but it's around that time of year.

Re:How is this difficult? VirtualBox...

[Allador]

Now, maybe VirtualBox might mitigate some of their drivers issues, and give you and your IT staff and the company a reason to brag about Linux.

You're making an awful big assumption that the machine wouldnt have driver issues with Linux. Thats very rare, in my experience.

What I like in KDE Control/Kcontrol is turning off the vendor them, changing the login icon image, adding pics to the changing background, and letting the login screen do its thing. Or, turning on and locking the screen saver, showing off kdesktop....

Maybe I'm confused ... but isnt that pretty much what every desktop/windows manager on every OS on the planet does?

Re: EULAs

[Sigma 7]

Since a minor (age 6) agreed, does that invalidate them?

If the license is invalid for one reason or another, it means you are using unlicensed software.

It's also a license, not a contract.

Re:That's a *monopoly* for you

[Lost Engineer]

Thinking anyone would try to replace his he-man muscle car with anything called the probe is bafflingly stupid.

Another Title.....

[IHC Navistar]

"What Does It Take To Get a PC With XP?"

-A better title:

"WINDOWS USERS WANT XP- NOT CRAPPY VISTA!"

Game incompatibility problems with Vista

[MeditationSensation]

I wish to hell my dad's new laptop had come with XP. I could not get Company of Heroes running on Vista. And there are lots of other games that have trouble too. The really fucked up thing? Asus seems to do everything in their power to not offer/support XP on the newer laptop models. You have to hunt around for drivers yourself; they're not on Asus's site.

Re:Game incompatibility problems with Vista

[laffer1]

About half of my games didn't work when I ran vista, but it was x64 ultimate. Some games supposedly work on 32bit vista. The most common problems are the anti copying software which wasn't updated for vista x64. So, you can get Age of Empires II to work, but not the expansion pack because that had a different protection scheme which fails on vista x64. Macrovision offers an update for 32bit vista, but not x64 vista. It's hard to find on their site, but it allows some games to work that don't otherwise.

I also found that I'd lose sound or experience crashes, but that seemed to be tied to the crappy sound blaster audigy driver I was using for vista. The onboard didn't have drivers at the time to switch to.

I dealt with it for about 10 months as I use BSD for many things anyway. Then I had complete data loss due to the mistake of upgrading my RAM to 4GB from 2.5GB. Games that had worked ran about about 5fps less. I went back to XP after the crash for gaming and visual studio work. It's been a much better experience for me. Some of the problems I experienced were scheduled for the chopping block in SP1. I never bothered to try it. I'll just wait for the next windows release or a reason to try vista again.

How to get a XP computer *easily*.

[spaceturtle]

Right. So you could spend a day chumming it up with "Business divisions" at Dell. Myself I'd just do a search on ebay. :)

Re:seriously

[Anonymous Coward]

do you have a better idea?

gratuitous mac plug

[tech49er]

I was stuck with this same conundrum 6 months ago: Need a computer, don't want vista, need windows for compatibility. I was going around all the shops looking for a small nifty laptop and as I went down the spec-list for each prospect my face would always fall where it said windows vista.

I believe the recent service-pack for vista fixed a lot of the issues, but at the time I knew from personal experience and that of my friends, that vista would take any nice hardware and reduce it by about 50% of what I'd get with XP. My brother, who's in Media and uses macs all the time said: 'get a mac, you can stick XP on it and you'll be set'

I went and got a beefy macbook, setup parallels with an old copy of XP I've had lying around and hey presto! I've even discovered that the compatibility problems weren't as pronounced as I thought and I've rarely had to boot into XP at all!

I reckon you might pay a premium of about 10-15% over standard high-end PC hardware, but for a completely integrated solution, with well-tested hardware, reliablility and no *major* compatibility issues, that's money well spent in my (mac) book!

(my only regret at this stage is that I didn't go the whole hog on a macbook pro. The standard macbook, tho beautifully designed, is a little 'girly' looking, and I cant help but feel a little self-conscious in meetings and on public transport).

Typical Slashdot FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Your liberally biased "facts" have no place on Slashdot.

If /. says XP is hard to acquire, you are obligated to only agree, along with forgetting all the bad things which were said about XP for the past five years (since the party line has now morphed into Vista being a disaster and XP being the greatest OS ever made).

So remember- XP is teh awesome, Vista is teh horrible, and MS is waging an evil and monopolistic conspiracy to destroy the plucky underdog, Windows XP.

Re:Updates

[IdeaMan]

windizupdate.62nds.com

1 word

[xmvince]

p i ARGGG ate

My Dell won't "Downgrade" to XP

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Dell ATG and I tried to "downgrade" it to XP because the memory challenged machine was running like sh*t with Vista.

It won't install!!! It refused to read any and all "xml" files during the installation. I tried like 5 different disks, tried burning a copy on another computer, etc etc. It simply won't work. I googled this and found nothing, no one else on the planet apparently has seen this phenomenon.

I can say that Dell service has gotten excellent over the past year and a half. I've had two problems with this laptop (one my fault) and they handled both immediately.

Yet, I was then able to install Vista again. I realized how cheap memory had gotten and added some.

I believe since it wasn't an official Dell disk, somehow Dell has made it so it won't work. Or, I've gone absolutely crazy. Who knows?