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IBM Granted "Paper-or-Plastic?" Patent
theodp writes "On Tuesday, IBM was granted US Patent No. 7,407,089 for storing a preference for paper or plastic grocery bags on customer cards and displaying a picture of said preference after a card is scanned. The invention, Big Blue explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked. The patent claims also cover affixing a cute sticker of a paper or plastic bag to a customer card to indicate packaging preferences. So does this pass the 'significant technical content' test, IBM'ers?"
We have no bags at the supermarkets anymore, unless you buy them. So almost everybody has bags or boxes that will last much longer.
Environment and such, ya know. Other countries do the same, I believe.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
How about we also solve the "debit or credit" problem I have to deal with each time I visit the mini-mart?
Answering paper or plastic isn't as inconvenient as having to carry around an identification card for every store I shop at. Why don't they just combine all the cards into a single ID. Yeah, and while they're at it, pulling that one card out of my pocket sounds inconvenient too, so why not just permanently affix it to my right hand or forehead. I'm so lucky that everyone wants to help me. /sarcasm off
Q: does this pass the 'significant technical content' test?
First the long answer: Nope.
Now the short answer: No.
In Denmark, where "no-nonsense" is a lifestyle, you pay +/- 1$ for each bag you want. (Makes you think twice about double-bagging!). In Belgium, you buy a reusable bag from the store. If it wears out or tears, you can trade it in for free. In the US, you guys are patenting your dependency on foreign oil.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
I don't have a customer card? Do I get neither?
So does this pass the 'significant technical content' test, IBM'ers?"
no /discussion
I change my preference based on whether I need more plastic bags for small trash bins. Sometimes it is nice to have a paper bag which generally takes a regular shape in the trunk for efficient loading. For small loads plastic is great with the hooks in the lid of the trunk.
Generally we bring our own bags (but sometimes they're in the other car). It is nice that some places give a discount. Aldi's charges for bags you don't bring, Beuhler's gives a discount for each bag you bring. However, Marc's in NE Ohio has the flimsiest bags in the world. Prices are fine, but you must BYOBags.
Posting late, sleepy, babbling, etc. sorry.
While in reality it may seem too simple and even stupid for some, the fact that none of us thought of it before and had implemented it shows it as unique.
The process itself is simple: Affix a sticker (much like any other sticker), and next time the cashier needs to only scan it instead of asking.
Morally objectionable: I don't think so. Not commonly used. Although a bit dumb.
Legally Valid: Yes.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
I can't decide who I think less of, the person that thought to file this or the person that actually granted it...
Databases have been known for a few years now. Customer identification cards as well. So now you can patent specific pieces of information when tied to the identification?
Maybe I'm stupid but it seems to me that the system might be in need revision. Perhaps IBM was trying to make a point?
I HATE that nasty inconvenience of talking to other people. which is why I'm on slashdot at 12am.
For all the anti plastic bag talk, I've never really heard any reasons WHY they are so bad. The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue? Things barely degrade in landfills anyhow, they are anaerobic.
Maybe these days its oil based.. which maybe somehow slightly valid.. but its nothing compared to petrol. Also, anti-plastic has been around so long it cant be that. So maybe someone can inform me!
While there is probably a good answer(s) ill have shot back at me, I'm still going to be annoyed that its not well conveyed onto consumers WHY this is bad. I feel too much like I'm in 1984 if I just have to know things are bad because everyone says so. Feels like its some minor issue that gets so much press yet if everyone stopped using them it wouldn't help anything at all.. producing huge amounts of paper bags would be a nightmare and is everyone using reusable going to save us all? Most people seem to slack off once they feel they are "doing their bit" by not using plastic bags.. even if they don't know anything about the issues involved.
Both. A sticker on a card is paper on plastic. Cool.
Rhymes that keep their secrets will unfold behind the clouds.There upon the rainbow is the answer to a neverending story
Open up a copy of your local phone book in private (so there is no access recorded) and memorize a few phone numbers attached to homes in affluent neighborhoods to recite in place of presenting the offensive tracking cards.
I believe prior art exists for the invention of storing and retrieving user preferences.
for a "cute" scratch and sniff paper-or-plastic sticker? Surely, people would prefer that. Can we also just put the cashiers in the basement with the lights out? It would save on energy costs and cut down on unnecessary communication such as momentary linguistic camaraderie/empathy/kindness between fellow human beings (which is uncalled for). Why force the cashier to speak? Surely, this is not required and only slows down productivity. We could simply have robots move the carts down to the basement (or get Bubbles, he'll need some remedial training, of course). Then dependent on whether the patented "cute" card sticker smell is Strawberries or Bananas the bags will return to ground-level to see the light of day, magically appearing in plastic or paper, the eager consumer smiling in the sunlight and glad to be rid of the burdensome trouble of other human beings. Once again patents to the rescue. *phew* That was a close one.
"unnecessary"? I'll say!
Sincerely,
AC
That sticker isn't very cute at all. It looks like a crude drawing of a cyclopean Transformer frowning in disapproval... where are the Pokemons and Sailor Moons?
Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
Hope I don't have to go in a bar with a sticker now...
Its probably a good thing that IBM has patented the "paper or plastic?" meme. Considering how many of their ex-employees are going to need to learn those words, IBM should also patent "You want fries with that?" and "May I take your order?" as well. Might as well cover all the bases.
No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
On Tuesday, Slashdot was granted US Patent No. 7,407,090 for storing a preference for rubber or latex on user ID's and displaying a picture of said preference after their login is scanned. The invention, Big Green explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and Cowboy Neal' that results when 'Rubber or Latex?' must be asked. The patent claims also cover affixing a cute sticker of a rubber or latex costume to a users login ID to indicate "packaging" preferences...
Task Mangler
The idea is not new or innovative. It is likely that there is prior art about capturing of customer preferences on bagging. A simple example is a sticker on the card that indicates their preference. I do not think that the method (using computers, databases, etc) is innovative when the big picture concept is "capture a customers preferences on bagging choice". In general, most any idea that is already well-developed without computers can be redefined as a
"new" method using a computer. I don't think the use of a computer to implement common concepts is a reasonable basis for a patent.
The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
correct.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
if they're not biodegradable, then how do you dispose of the millions of bags that are thrown in the trash every day? where do you put them?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
you under-estimate the number of plastic bags thrown away each day. They aren't only used in supermarkets for your groceries. Practically every store uses them (clothing, electronics, books, everything). There is also plastic packaging. Plastic bags ARE a HUGE problem.
I take it you do not work in computer security, right?
Maybe stuff like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
IBM have been patenting really really stupidly simple and obvious inventions for quite a while now. It seems that every month /. reports on an IBMer being granted a patent on something like stickers on credit cards, or on/off switches, or a great new way of peeling an orange.
Here's what I think: you've got IBM, a very wealthy company with a very strong brand and a good reputation, and a lot of clever people. Why not solicit crazy-but-patentable ideas from IBMers, drop the small (to IBM) amount of cash on patenting it, and then have a portfolio of crazy stuff. Then when you run into problems with other patents you can pull out a patent on putting a sticker on a bank card and say "Well, you let that through..."
I reckon they're gearing up to give the US patent system an almighty rattling.
Paper IN plastic? I'm going to beat big blue to the punch, patent pending.
Distributed proteome folding @ WorldCommunityGrid.org
Team Slashdot - Members:#1 Run Time:#1 Points:#1 Results:#1
1. Why don't you just pick the type of bag you want yourself?
2. Aren't the bags in front of the checkout in the US?
3. If not, where are the bags then? Has the cashier them stashed in a secret safe under his seat?
4. What is inconvinient about answering a question?
5. Don't you have reuseable fabric bags? That's the most common around here.
Why arent they made bio-degradable then? Duh.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
Because of their size & weight, plastic bags escape normal disposal options easily. Look around you. Most of the trash I see on the streets is plastic bags.
You probably use thousands of plastic bags every year. Are you so confident of your disposal methods that none of them entered a waterway?
if its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
1) Paper bags recycle more readily than plastic.
2) You could just reuse a sturdy bag and that way, not contribute to landfill with the containers you use to take home your shopping at all.
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
To us, this is terribly obvious,
but to the patent examiners, and their cohorts,
this is not obvious, because if it were, it would not be patented, since it is not legal to patent obvious stuff.
This means that we are far smarter than patent examiners, lawyers, judges, etc.
So, the reason we work in depressing distracting places instead of being rich and happy due to us being geniuses, must be that the stupids are attacking us, suppressing us, and generally flocking together in order to harm us, steal from us, and generally oppress us.
But then again, another explanation might be that the patent system and similar is insane.
Kim0
Here's a scenario I often run into:
I'm checking out at the store, and put my reusable bag in front of my items or say, "hi I brought a bag with me today"
Often, the cashier will fail to break out of repetitive-task-robot mode and automatically start loading the plastic bag.
Other times, they'll put things in the bag so stupidly that they'll then proceed to load up items in a plastic bag that would have fit just fine in the cloth bag.
Or they'll put bagged items in a bag. I've had the following things put into a bag by themselves:
- a bag of rice
- a loaf of bread, already in its own bag
- a plastic gallon jug, which is already easier to carry by its own handle.
- a pizza in a cardboard box, which is much less wieldy in a plastic bag than on its own.
And then there's the countless times I request NO bag, at which point they look at me all puzzled, almost offended.
If IBM could address all the problems I've just described, then maybe that would actually be patent-worthy.
Can the IBM system store such a complex decision process?
When I started replying I was going to have the usual rant about this being a stupidly tiny "invention" or probably not even an invention at all as it's so simple. I was going to compare it to the invention of the steam engine or the television or some other complex device but it occured to me that I couldn't think of a single complex device that was a single invention.
I think every single complex device that we use is built up of several (perhaps hundreds or even thousands) of tiny increments each one of which was an invention. I'm sure some of those increments people looked at and said "that's obvious" and some required a little more imagination.
While I wouldn't try to defend this patent as being right, I firmly believe this shouldn't have been allowed, I think we are in danger of over correcting the current stupidity of the patent system unless we are careful in how we draw up new guidelines.
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
With our crazy patent system, if you're as big as IBM is, the smart thing to do is to patent anything and everything you do. Even if you don't intend to enforce the patent, it prevents someone else from patenting the same thing and suing you. Given court costs to defend against a patent suit and the multi-million dollar awards if you lose, $1500 for a patent application seems like really cheap insurance.
Show me a patent that covers the use of a soft paper or other material square less than 15cm on a side to cover the nose while you blow.
No?
Now I'll patent "blowing your nose".
Show me a patent for putting a sign up saying "Open" or "Closed" on a business entrance door.
Show me a patent for putting your current overdraft limit on (not your statement) your debit card.
Show me a patent on putting "plastic" or "paper" on a plastic or paper bag.
Show me a patent for any old shit, and then tell me that this means it's innovative.
Will somebody *PLEASE* publicly humiliate the shitwit patent examiners that approved this garbage?
Lately, I've been giving serious thought to starting a website just to put these asshats up for the public humiliation and shaming that they deserve!
The shitwits responsible:
Primary Examiner: Lee; Michael G.
Assistant Examiner: Savusdiphol; Paultep
Somebody, PLEASE, start giving these half-assed clerks the humilitation they so deserve!
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Originally I thought that when they asked "paper or plastic" they wanted to know if I wanted to pay with paper notes or a plastic credit card. And then I was confused in Australia because their notes *are* made of plastic.
Life gets so much more interesting when English is not your native language :-)
Try this.
I reserve the write to mangle english.
by shortening check-out line conversations almost down to nothing, i can now shop for groceries without fear of making prolonged social interactions.
Throw-away products, plastic or paper bags, disposable cameras, packaging materials, whatever, are wasteful, in principle. It costs energy to produce them and to dispose of them. If a long lasting alternative is available, it is almost always better. Lasting products can often be fixed if they are broken, and if you don't need them anymore, you can give them away or sell them.
assignment != equality != identity
Abstract: A system to provide a set of exclusive rights, hereafter referred as rights, granted by a state, hereafter referred as state, to an INVENTOR, hereafter referred as a retard, or his assignee, hereafter referred as an assignee, for a fixed period of time, hereafter referred as time, in exchange for a disclosure, hereafter referred as disclosure, of something, hereafter referred as a nothing, completely useless that makes people comment on how absurd it is when they hear about it in the PAST, PRESENT or FUTUR, with or without the help of PAST, PRESENT, NOT YET CONCEIVED, or PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE Technology or PAST PRESENT OR FUTURE LANGUAGE and COMMUNICATION DEVICE NOT LIMITED TO HUMAN FORM. USING WORD included in, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, the Merriam and Webster between page 0 and 9999 in PAST, PRESENT AND ALL FUTUR EDITION.
Too many prior arts I guess.
>I'm still going to be annoyed that its not well
>conveyed onto consumers WHY this is bad.
In general, my position in this regard is that if you can't be bothered stay informed about a particular subject, you should just shut up and do as you're told. That isn't intended as a judgment, really! There are plenty of subjects on which I can't be bothered to stay informed, simply because there are only a wee 24 hours in the day. But I object to the argument that "consumers" should be able to kick back and relax while the government spoon-feeds them everything they need to know. THAT is what 1984 warned against.
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
This isn't 1984. This is commercialism at its worst. They can charge you $1 for the "green" "enviro" bags which may be green in colour but are not good for the environment. It's called a scam. They had a problem: People were claiming that the use of plastic bags was a significant contributor to the environment (and I'm not saying this claim isn't true). They solved it creatively. Charge people for bags that are less environmentally friendly and don't bio-degrade, claim that they are enviro-friendly and paint anyone who questions it as the devil, then go back to the government and claim you're doing your part. Hell even try to claim concession for producing the new bags. I've even had more than one girl at the checkout be rude to for daring not to come with or buy enviro bags. She literally said "Doing your bit for the environment I see". I told her they weren't but didn't argue much. What I felt like saying was "get back to your minimum wage job you stupid drone and stop lecturing me on the environment".
Here in Australia you can still get the pastic bags in most places, but they are usually so thin they break. I bought a pair of 100 DVD spindles from Officeworks (similar to OfficeMax) about a week ago. I got across 2 city streets before they split. I went back and exchanged those spindles. I often come home with dogfood and/or softdrink where the checkout person has loaded over 4 kilos into one flimsy thin bag. Unsuprisingly they constantly break. I want to know how the occupational health and safety nazis can encourage the use of inadequate bags like this. These bags are accidents waiting to happen. I've had things fall on my foot on at least a couple of occassions. I've had cans of dog food fall and roll into the parking lot just moving these bags from the trolley to the car.
There's no rhyme or reason to it anymore. Once the environment card is played, all common sense and all actual logic goes out the fucking window.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Over the lifecycle of the bag, be it paper or plastic, which does more damage to the environment?
How many chemicals and nasty pollutants are released into the atmosphere to create a paper bag? And what about if it is made from recycled paper? The commercial processes involved are nothing like the stuff you play around with at school.
What if, all things considered, the plastic bag was better or that they could be manufactured in such a way to be better for the environment than paper bags?
At least woven bags are reusable - but you've still got to consider what goes into making that bag (dyes, cleaning the fabric, is the fabric 100% organic (100% cotton/wool) or is it only part organic (i.e. made from polyester, etc)? And what does it do to the environment to make that?
Not so simple a question!
'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier'
Because the last thing we should be doing is communicating with each other.
Because they're more expensive. Plus they are only bio-degradable in relative terms (It can still take many years), and the materials they degrade into can also be harmful to the environment.
And that's assuming they are produced in an environmentally sound way. That doesn't have to be the case.
They're definatly not the best solution to the problem of plastic bags.
"Yes I could just 'inconveniently' say 'paper' to you, but dammit I have a card to do that now... it's in here somewhere... nope, that's my 'dash of milk and two sugars please' card... Ah, here... oh no, that's my small 'good morning' sign that I can hold up to friends and colleagues... there's my 'Is this available in plaid?' card... damn, I think I left it at home with my 'leave the elephant on the trampoline for 5 more minutes and then let the giraffe have a go' card.
The radio program "Background Briefing" had a story titled "Plastic: A Serial Killer". You can find the transcript
at:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s809783.htm
One excerpt from the program:
"Whales are amongst the 100,000 marine mammals estimated by the US Coast Guard to be killed by plastic each year. For birds, the guesstimate is a million.
--karma
All this money that is being spent pursuing retarded patents like this is classified as R&D spending. It is seen as successful R&D spending because it produces patents (a handy metric for innovation) and money. The question of quality, of whether it actually corresponds to real technological advance, seems to be irrelevant to most people in industry and high office.
The US, seeing itself as a high tech economy, is measuring inputs (R&D money) and gross outputs (patents and the money they produce) and patting itself on the back for the resulting 'growth' (innovation), despite the fact you are producing little or none.
Being completely unaware of the true state of your economy is a dangerous place to be.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Now, however, I'm having second thoughts.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
I become tired of having to tell my bank card that I speak English. Why not have a bit on the card so that we don't have to repeat entering this info.
..........FULL STOP.
Burn them and use the energy for heating, like we do in Europe.
Seeing all these frivolous patents being issued I get the feeling I'm really missing out on a good thing here. Trouble is coming up with a really good mundane everyday concept to patent...
I always thought the whole paper or plastic thing was about money. Like cash(paper) or credit(plastic). Then again I've never had anyone ask me "paper or plastic?" ever, and I don't think I've ever been to a place that has both...
Thousands of bags a year? Cripes, how much shopping do you do?
Anyway, I've used reusable bags for a long time but I do think there are unanswered questions about them. The biggest thing is how much energy and waste does one reusable bag use compared with a paper or plastic bag disposed of through various means - e.g., through recycling, reuse as trash bags (even my environmentally-moronic roommate picked up that idea), or just as plain old trash? Most of my other questions rely on the answer to those questions.
I had a canvas bag that I used for many years (from Madison Market Co-op, back in Seattle) and a few months ago I either misplaced or lost it. This new one I got from a chain grocery is supposedly made from recycled material; it feels like plastic and the color scheme is eye-catchingly atrocious with red handles and pastel pictures on the glossy bag. I've actually thought about throwing it in the trash, I hate it so much, but am unfortunately more caring about environment than looking like a douche while walking around town. Anyway, these events combined with all the times I've forgotten or couldn't bring the ugly one with me, has me wondering just how many people are going to end up with a bunch of reuseable bags they don't need or want and end up tossing them in the trash. I'm pretty sure a lot of them aren't recyclable or compostable - and even if they are, a lot of people don't bother. (Hell, a few days after asking my roommates to put food and organic stuff in the city-run compost, one of them dumped 3/4 of a pie and a bouquet of flowers in the trash; maybe it was too hard to turn around, as the compost is just opposite the trash.)
It eliminates this terrible inconvenience of being asked "Paper or plastic?", a question that is constantly giving me headaches and is making my life more and more miserable, because I just can't decide what's the right answer. Should I take paper and be friendly to our environment? But what if it splits while I'm crossing the street? And then this scene in "The Graduate" comes to my mind:
Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics.
So "plastic" should be the right answer. But then again, it is bad for the environment and paper bags look much better than plastic bags. What if I meet a very attractive girl on the way home, one that happens to be an enviromentalist?
The invention is great, but there is still a problem with it. It doesn't take all necessary parameters into account. What do you do with people that use plastic bags on even and paper bags on odd days? Can the system store this preference? What if I have more complicated patterns of choosing plastic vs. paper? Sometimes I don't even know in advance whether I take a paper or a plastic bag. Are my decisions perhaps based on quantum effects? Is Roger Penrose's "Quantum-Consciousness Theory" right? Is it then even possible to find the hidden variable that determines my choice?
For every person who "takes care to dispose" there's six more who don't.
That's an issue.
No sig today...
I haven't seen a supermarket offering paper bags in 10 years.
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
I have a voluminous canvas bag which I take with me when I go shopping. How hard is that?
No sig today...
Here in Sweden, you pick the type of bag yourself and place it on the conveyor belt along with the groceries. (Assuming of course that you didn't bring your own bags or other suitable container with you.)
And then you pack yourself the groceries into the bags.
A plastic bag costs in the ballpark of 25c (US) and a paper bag about 50c (US).
while true; do eject; eject -t; done
The point with these "enviro" bags are that their robust and can be used for months or even years, compare that to how many disposable plastic bags you would use in that time period...
In my local supermarket they offer cloth bags for around £2 and will replace them for free, the bags are biodegradable and will mulch quite happily in compost. Sure if the bags they're offering as alternatives really aren't that green then you should still consider my first argument, their use of flimsy bags are subtle hints for you to use something less disposable that'll last longer.
What still gets me is the irony of trying to cut down on plastic bags while still heavily packing all the stuff you buy in large amounts of cardboard & plastics.
Well, this question brings out the whole "environmentally friendly" issue.
I don't see why "biodegradable" or paper is actually good anymore. Apart from the fact that paper manufacturing is anything but environmentally friendly, anything that's biodegradable turns quickly into CO2. Non-degradable plastic bags, instead, sequester carbon into the ground for a long time.
So, do something against global warming: buy and dispose of as many long-lived plastic items as you can.
The US, seeing itself as a high tech economy, is measuring inputs (R&D money) and gross outputs (patents and the money they produce) and patting itself on the back for the resulting 'growth' (innovation)
Sorry, but you're confused. Research output in the US is quantified by many different factors.
despite the fact you are producing little or none.
And how would you know? What quantities do you base that assessment on? And "little" is relative to which other nations?
Being completely unaware of the true state of your economy is a dangerous place to be.
Indeed. Now, which nation do you think is more "aware" of the state of its economy than the US?
I still don|t get it. If you burn a plastic bag, as far as I know you get far less dangerous end products than if you burn paper bags. So why can't they just be burned ?
I was dreaming up a whole post about the problems with plastic bags, but I think I'll take it a different way. Forget about saving the world, I don't use plastic bags because they are an inferior tool for the task.
I have several bags that I use for shopping, including: a messenger bag and a canvas tote (which I also use for carrying things generally) and three insulated bags specifically used for grocery shopping. I leave the grocery bags in the car so they are always ready. These bags are better because...
1) I've never had one break in the two years I've used them for shopping. That means since I've started using them I've never had to run into the street to catch rolling cans of tomato sauce, or wash spilled milk out of my driveway - things that both paper and plastic bags have left me doing.
2) The bags are more comfortable for my hands. If I have a heavy grocery load, it's nice to have a wide, padded handle instead of the narrow plastic that digs into my palms. I can even throw my messenger bag over my shoulder.
3) When I use the insulated bags for groceries I can feel just a little safer leaving cold things sit for a bit if I have to run some other errands, or if I go shopping using transit or my bike.
The fact that it's better for the environment and U.S. oil dependency is just icing on the cake. And if I forget my bags, or drop by the store unexpectedly - then I just go ahead and take the paper or plastic bags and use them as liners for my garbage cans.
In some ways you are right, bags are not that bad in the big scheme of things. If you had a choice of creating an alternative to petrol or an alternative to plastic bags - petrol would be the clear answer. But why force yourself into a false dichotomy? Just because something is not a huge problem does not mean it is not a problem. The Pacific Garbage Patch is a dramatic example of how small pieces of litter add up to a big problem.
The environmental issues we face today are the result of generations of incremental and seemingly insignificant choices made by billions of people - why should the solutions be any different? Choose paper because it's just a little bit better than plastic (or, find a way to compost biodegradable bags if you can - even lobby for a organic waste program in your city if you feel like going the extra mile), and if it fits your lifestyle choose reusable bags over paper or plastic because they are better for both you AND the environment.
What are you producing then, smartarse?
I didn't make any statements about US research output, you did. I'm asking you to support your assertions.
Who said I was trying to compare the US to another nation?
Indeed: you were completely oblivious to the issue. But either the US is using the best known practices for quantifying research output, or it is not. If it it using best known practices, you have nothing to complain about. If you want to argue that the US is not using best practices for quantifying research output, then please point to something that supports your statements.
It really pisses me off when people try and deflect or dodge questions in place of making a point.
Indeed, and that is exactly what you're doing. So far, all you have done is bash US research without any substance behind your arguments. Put up or shut up.
What next, patent storing choice of regular, premium, or diesel on you gas card?
Yeah, this is so bloody obvious to consumers that care about the choice it's just plain stupid. It so quickly fails the Obvious test I can't believe somebody asked it. Besides, it's just storing user preference data. Duh...
More importantly, I really want my debit card to store preferred language settings. I'm rather sick of the ATMs asking which language to use before doing anything.
Sounds like a valid patent to me, unless there's prior art. At least it is doing exactly what patents are intended to do, ie. you have a business idea, and then want exclusive rights for that idea for a time so you can develop a business around it and talk to potential business partners without some of them just taking your idea once you tell it to them.
Good or bad, that's what patents are there for.
Also, it seems to be "non-obivious" if there is no prior art, since credit cards have been around for a long time without somebody doing this already.
I shop when the cupboards are bare. That brings me to the checkout with a fully loaded cart that will ring up to between 250-350 dollars. When the bagger asks if I want paper or plastic it's a chance for me, as their immediate boss (you know, the customer?) to gauge their competence and focus. That makes a big difference whether I watch every bag as they pack it and even sometimes walk over and look in the bags after they've been packed. I've had occasion to ask that a bag be repacked. What good are crushed noodles? Eggs do NOT go on top of a bag of noodles!
When I was a grocery bagger we were taught to engage the customer. Ask how they are or ask if it's all right to put cans, if few enough, in one bag or if they'd like milk kept out? These responsibilities of getting the bagging correct were not solely on the cashier.
Removing one more interaction between their customers and their employees isn't such a good idea. Well, unless such interaction is a negative, in which case technology isn't their problem....
The problem of gathering them, the problem of them being dirty, the problem of different kinds of plastic used, some of which produce poisons gasses if not burned in a very high temperature...
Burning plastic bags could certainly be part of the solution, but it wouldn't be easy.
There are also other uses for waste plastic, such as using it in asphalt when pawing roads, partially replacing bitumen. But again it's the same problem, getting the waste plastic, and having it clean enough.
The point with these "enviro" bags are that their robust and can be used for months or even years, compare that to how many disposable plastic bags you would use in that time period...
Bullshit. Total utter bullshit. Have you ever considered that popular opinion may have brainwashed you into thinking this way? We own about 30-40 of the "enviro" bags. Despite the markup charged, they are still cheap enough to consider for certain uses. However they're not robust. Sure they're not as flimsy as the plastic bags they make today. (Nothing is that flimsy). But still, they break all the fucking time. Anything over a couple of kilo risks them. When they do break - a small tear, a broken strap - they're disposed of because they're not worth fixing. How many of the plastic bags would it take to counter one broken "robust" "enviro" bag??? How many people buy more bags because they left their bags at home or in the car? How many people, like me, use them for things besides shopping?
In my local supermarket they offer cloth bags for around £2 and will replace them for free, the bags are biodegradable and will mulch quite happily in compost.
They're cheaper where I am but they're not disposed of for free. As for how biodegradable they are, I simply don't believe that. Just google:
enviro bags not so environmentally friendly
Sure if the bags they're offering as alternatives really aren't that green then you should still consider my first argument, their use of flimsy bags are subtle hints for you to use something less disposable that'll last longer.
No, it's not a subtle hint at all. Bags so flimsy that I'm worried about a 1kg can of dog food breaking through in a single use and possibly breaking my foot is about as unsubtle as it gets. If the "enviro" bags were offered at cost, I might be more inclined to believe the motive for "offering" me the bag and providing a "subtle hint" was targeted at improving the environment and not at boosting their own profits.
What still gets me is the irony of trying to cut down on plastic bags while still heavily packing all the stuff you buy in large amounts of cardboard & plastics.
Now that I agree with. What's worse, if I buy something in bulk - say 12 cartons of long life milk, the cardboard boxes are so damaged in unpacking that I can't use them as packaging to take the milk out of the supermarket. If they cared about the environment, you'd be able to get stuff in the same package they were shipped in to the supermarket. Reuse that packaging (and don't charge for it!) and I may start taking other initiatives seriously.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Remember all those "suddenoutbreakofcommonsense" tags in the past few months? We should go back and s/sudden/temporary/.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Looking around me, not finding that much plastic bags lying around... Actually pretty much none.
- These characters were randomly selected.
Somewhat cynically, I'd say reusing plastic bags are a simple lifestyle change that gives you a good feeling that you're "helping the environment" and costs hardly anything to implement. It draws attention away from real problems/solutions, like not driving to the shop in the first place, or not buying so much stuff, or insulating your home properly, or investing in public transport.
Biodegradable requires bioactivity, which can be very, very restricted in modern landfills. Iirc, they have done core samples and found decades-old newspapers in excellent - nearly archival - condition. The problem is that when we pack as much as possible in a landfill we also shut out oxygen infiltration. Since oxygen is required for most biological processes which break down biodegradable fibers, almost none occurs.
I like having the option because, like many, I keep a handful around for trash can liners. I have reusable bags for regular groceries, and usually just take small/few items if they can be easily carried without a bag. Reduce, reuse, recycle...in that order.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue? Things barely degrade in landfills anyhow, they are anaerobic.
I don't get biodegradable plastic bags either, but for different reasons. My guess is that - with our current problem with global warming - you'd want your plastic bags to last as long as possible, instead of decomposing into carbon dioxide, right?
I use my daytrip odometer sort of as a second fuel gauge. Normally, a full tank of gas gives me 700 kilometers.
When that drops (to say, 650 km) I know it is time to inflate the tires again. It really is a noticable effect. Proper pressure (do *not* overinflate as it lessens the grip on the road) gives me 50 km more per fill-up.
This is *so* cool.
As a true geek I tire from all this old fashion 'verbal' communication forced upon us by cashiers. I try to SMS to him/her/it/wtf, or blog via my phone and gently suggest the cashier to read my answer at the URL printed clearly on my shirt in QR code , but am far too often met with an increase of rudeness that only further illustrates the inferiority in politeness of verbal communication.
Finally a solution! Thank you IBM!
(Disclaimer: I'm an IBMer - not that they probably want to admit it.)
Big Blue must have a wager going with Amazon to see who can get through the most asinine patent.
I think was just a test for how the most stupid thing can get patented.. You can't really be serious if you as a patentclerk grant such a patent..
We have no bags at the supermarkets anymore, unless you buy them. So almost everybody has bags or boxes that will last much longer.
I insist on plastic bags at the checkout, otherwise I have to go out and buy bin-liners. That's the thing, you either get the bags for free, or you pay for them - you still need plastic bags at home.
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years.
So, should we not pursue alternative energy also? It takes time to bring to market also. Heck, even educating and convincing consumers to change their habits takes time. We should not pursue your plan by that logic also. Conservation is a good thing, but it won't replace long term production, unless we just stop growing. We have to get our energy from somewhere.
And 5 years is too long? Pfft! What, are you six? Is that forever to you? Who cares if it takes 50 years...think of the grandchildren! But, seriously, have you heard of the futures market, it speculatively bid on things that are, like, in the future. Part of the reason why oil is so high is because the speculation is that there won't be enough oil in the future to meet demand, thanks for that gift, pal.
The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage.
What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.
One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
My father was a chive you insensitive clod!
As houghi stated, this 'innovative' idea is about 20 years too late. The environmental bags are becoming the standard and those other types of disposable bags will be obsolete by the time this 'innovation' hits the market.
'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked
I call BS... come on, seriously? Have we gotten that bad as a society that being asked a question and giving an answer is "inconvenient"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that format seems to be the very basis of social interaction. Not to mention the fact that I don't always get the same kind of bag, I get whichever one I'm more likely to use later, and that does vary.
;)
If this ever becomes the norm, I will buy a huge gaudy tote bag and use that for my groceries, not because I care about the environment (although I do) but out of principle.
10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
20 DRINK COFFEE
30 GOTO 10
This is really getting ridiculous! Patents should protect an inventors idea. but patenting a simply question is getting stupid. pretty soon the bathroom attendendant wont be able to ask if you would like a towel.
This is probably just a symptom indicating that the vast number of patent engineers they have hired at IBM aren't being fed a very large amount of good ideas, so they fill their monthly quota by drinking a lot of beer at lunch and filing anything they can dream up in the afternoons as their own inventions. :-)
...and replaces it with the alternate unnecessary inconvenience of making it more difficult for customers to change their preferences. "Uh, yeah, I noticed you're bagging those in plastic...could you unbag all that and give me paper? Thanks for not asking."
Are you sure this wasn't Microsoft's idea?
..."Your place or mine?"
When you are out with a "lady of the evening," and pay by credit card (up front, of course), it will have a sticker on it, with the logo showing either a posh condo interior with pink decor, or with blue.
In fact, there are all SORTS of preferences related to transactions with "women of negotiable affection" that could be applied to such credit-card stickers.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Is that, by associating you with your bag selection, the store can actually better know in advance how many bags it needs to buy. If you did bring your bags, the store would know it, and could then send you stuff to thank you for your environmental savvy, and then based on data mining, show you some of the promotional items you might be interested.
We all laugh at the IBM Patent, but they are going to make a ton of money off of it.
This is my sig.
Our 4-person family doesn't have a trash can, because we sort everything: paper, cardboard, metal, glass, plastics. Admittedly, we can't avoid all waste (PVC and such), but that is at most a few kilograms per year for the landfill.
We compost the bio waste (mainly potato shells and such) in an isolated container on our back yard, and transform it into free soil for our garden. The rest will not stink, because there is no biodegradable material in it (we will rinse or wash any food waste).
I usually collect the plastics waste for a month or two before I take it with the bicycle to a nearby former landfill where it will be recycled into fuel for combined power&heat stations.
We depend very little on fossil fuels. The house and the water is heated by scrap wood, and we use 2 MWh/a electricity (about 230 Watt in the average). Our neighbors who live in an identical house, use the electric heating (more than 20 MWh/a), drive cars, fills a large trash can every week, and so on.
the city also outlawed the sale of water in plastic single-use bottles in or on all city owned property
Sorry, but what is a "single-use bottle"? All bottles can be reused by anyone that cares enough to do it. Or have Microsoft invented DRM for bottles that prevents them being refilled?
---
I say all and I know there are exceptions but I can out-pedant the best of them and I don't care!
Bottles made of sugar for use in movies, bottles made of electr-field for use in particle capture, bottles made for smashing on ships ... other counter-examples welcome.
This is really not ok. Since when and I mean seriously people since when is storing the answer to a question in a database patentable. I mean think about all the things that you have missed out on patenting. What if I want to make a database of all my friends and store whether or not they would be receptive to viewing a particularly impressive quantity or shape of feces I have just produced. Should I patent that. Come on people they patented storing the answer to a specific question in a database. The only thing keeping me from a complete break down is that I did not RTFA.
Giant garbage patch floating in Pacific
An enormous island of trash twice the size of Texas is floating in the Pacific Ocean somewhere between San Francisco and Hawaii. Chris Parry with the California Coastal Commission in San Francisco said the so-called Great Pacific Garbage Patch, has been growing a brisk rate since the 1950s, The San Francisco Chronicle reported Friday. The trash stew is 80 percent plastic and weighs more than 3.5 million tons. "At this point, cleaning it up isn't an option," Parry said. "It's just going to get bigger as our reliance on plastics continues." Parry said using canvas bags to cart groceries instead of using plastic bags is a good first step to reducing reliance on plastics, the newspaper said. Source: http://www.physorg.com/news112248742.html
Washington state passed a law too requiring people to use use reusable bags else they would be charged for paper or plastic bags. Went into effect last week.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
|+/- 1$|
Better?
We used to use those as garbage bags as well, and as we are only two, we don't have much garbage. The smallish grocery store bags are just perfect for daily garbage. Now we have to buy those larger black bags, which we can't fill in one day. Since we don't like stinky overnight garbage in house, we throw away a half empty bag, which is a waste. So, for our family of two, this policy does not seem to do any good to environment. Unless we are willing to keep garbage overnight, of course.
I'm flabbergasted.
How about a bin (that's British English for a trash receptacle) with a tight fitting (airtight even) lid. Waste breaks down aerobically, so a tight lid reduces any decomposition; it also prevents escape of gases.
Basically what you're saying is that your waste materials smell and you don't want to have to put up with that if that's the cost of saving the planet - it's going to get harder than that you know. I shudder to think what you say to someone who suggests you walk somewhere instead of using your car; shock! horror! you might even smell the sweat, how can you live through such hardship.
Our regular waste materials that aren't recycled comprise plastic food wrap, meat waste (bones, gristle, what-have-you) and vegetable matter for composting. The vegetable matter goes in a plastic tub with a lid and get's changed when it's full - take the lid off and it smells, but that's what the lid is for.
I'd guess a preventive measure is taken, by not mixing industrial garbage with household garbage. Household garbage doesn't typically contain all that much hazardous materials, at least it is not supposed to.
If a household needs to dispose of something environmentally hazardous, it is not supposed to be thrown in the household garbage, instead one drives it to the municipal recycling depot, or if one lives in an apartment building then there typically is a garbage room where one can place bulkier garbage where there usually are also bins for electronic waste, paper recycling, lightbulbs, and so on.
while true; do eject; eject -t; done
Why don't they just combine all the cards into a single ID.
There is a coffee and doughnut chain here in Canada called Tim Hortons. Recently, they introduced a plastic card for use in their stores. You can "load" the card with money, and when you buy your morning cup you simply swipe the card through the reader. No more fumbling with change. (A coffee and a bagel will cost around $3.00, and the smallest paper currency here is $5.00, so either you give coins, or you get coins.) It makes it very convenient for the customer to use the card, especially at the drive through window.
Here's the brilliant part of the plan, though. When you initially set up your card, you have to load it with a minimum of five dollars. So if a million people get a Tim Card, that creates a pool of $5 million dollars that Tim Hortons Inc can collect interest on. The card can be loaded online, again with a minimum $5.00 load. You can even set up your card to be periodically loaded automatically. Tim Hortons will always have a nice big pool of cash sitting around gathering interest.
Now, why would they want to share that pool of cash with another vendor?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
We've been buying canvas bags to use in grocery stores. We don't need to worry about the paper/plastic decision, stores will often give a small discount if you use your own bags (not giving you a bag saves them money), we can reuse them a lot more than paper/plastic and it is the best option for the environment. Most supermarkets around here carry canvas bags that aren't too pricey ($1-$2 per bag). I wonder if IBM's patent includes this option.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
The electronic storage might pass the test depending on the implementation. However, it would not cover all implementations that give the same result. In other words, it might be patentable but it would be trivial to work around.
Covering the cute sticker shows that there are still idiots at the patent office.
They can charge you $1 for the "green" "enviro" bags which may be green in colour but are not good for the environment.
Tell you what, why don't you screw "them" over real good and buy a hemp bag printed with vegetable dyes. That would really "stick it to the man" and you know what, it would also be good for the environment.
Your argument appears to be that as large corporations helped to change a habit with a solution that may have benefited them too that you should simply revert to the more environmentally damaging behaviour. Who's being illogical?
Don't pay for bags,
Don't use the flimsy bags that break,
Get a bag to reuse that is strong and preferably not made from petrochemicals (though if you already have a bag that's suitable, eg a wheeled suitcase, that would do it).
and then reuse them for trash can liners, Auto trash bags, kitty litter bags, organizers, etc. If they outlaw plastic grocery bags, they will force us to start buying non-biodegradable trash bags in the paper boxes. Seriously, why do people buy trashcan liners that are the same size as gocery bags.
On the street in front of the state house where this law was passed crack cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin and marijuana are openly sold despite the laws to the contrary. Beggars, zombies and hookers shamble about. It's as lawless and dangerous place as you'll find in the wild west.
But they can save us from shopping bags?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Funny, I thought the whole "paper or plastic?" thing was started as a way to personally engage the customer and show them that the store caters to their wishes. Reducing this to an electronic system (besides being obvious) is also eliminating the primary (social) value of the practice.
The subject matter of patents isn't required (by the PTO) to be valuable, I wonder how many people got bonuses at IBM based on this patent being issued? It certainly is included in the annual tally of patents issued to big Blue.
The applicant is from Canada though; we need to give him a break. They just found out aboot this unique technology.
What about the "no bag thanks, I've brought my own" option. Looks like the serious business analysts should be brought in to uncover the hidden complexities of the bag question. Hopefully the question won't be needed by the time IBM tries to sue someone for infringing their patent.
Seriously.
Making the names of the patent excaminer public and calling for their humiliation in the same post
is just cruel.
(And please mod me down after that, so this just get's buried)
What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.
I think you're suggesting that if you save a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread a week, that next week you'll have to make it up by consuming an extra to make up your personal deficit. And that would be true if you'd saved the gallon of gas my not making a trip this week that you have to make up for the next. But if you can reduce your car's "appetite" for fuel, so that it simply requires less fuel to do the same work, then you don't have that personal fuel deficit to make up. You left a gallon of fuel at the station, effectively "adding it to the market".
I'll agree that that's no reason not to pursue long term remedies at the same time. Conservation now can give us a little breathing room, especially if it's something as painless as checking the tires.
I am not a crackpot.
I'm too ashamed to login.
- Anonymous IBM Consultant
I think you're suggesting that if you save a gallon of gas or a loaf of bread a week, that next week you'll have to make it up by consuming an extra to make up your personal deficit
That's not at all what I was saying. Please reread my post, you will probably find it agreeable. I would explain, but I have to gbtw.
One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
I am very happy that they are eliminating what little human interaction cashiers have with customers. The poxy gits that sit behind that counter are just downright disgusting!
Did they patent the idea that someone might want to put such a marker on a card, or did they patent the technology for doing so?
It seems the patent office has confused necessity with invention, or perhaps more accurately - perception of demand has been confused with invention.
Recognizing that people might want to put a marker on a card to indicate a preference for paper or plastic was insightful. But it wasn't an invention. Before an invention you must have a need. And then you must have an original way to address that need.
Need: An easy way for customers to indicate their preference for paper or plastic without having to go through the laborious process of the bagger asking "paper or plastic" and the customer responding with either "paper" or "plastic". Solution: Store that information on a card using electronic or paper-and-glue methods.
Now, if no one has ever managed to store information on a durable card before, then you might have a pretty neat invention! Otherwise, all you're doing is using an well known invention for its intended purpose. This should be no more patentable than saying driving an SUV into a particular spot in the rainforest no one has ever driven on. Just because you're the first one to have a need to do it doesn't mean you can patent it.
I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
When society considers replying to a 5 syllable question with a two syllable answer as an "ordeal", you know we're all doomed.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
>if they're not biodegradable, then how do you dispose of the millions of bags that are thrown in the trash every day? where do you put them?
In the city dump.
Or are you unaware that the entirety of the US's garbage in the past century would fit in a speck smaller than a pinhead on an average-sized map of the US?
Move that stuff to a high-tech facility up in Alaska, somewhere that NOBODY goes (except polar bears, and we can protect against them!) and we can not worry about garbage production for the next century. When we start running out of things to mine, we can mine the dump.
Or, let's not and rather we'll inconvenience ourselves so we can feel good about something that's done virtually nothing to help the environment, since the problem never really existed in the first place.
>Plastic bags ARE a HUGE problem.
You've still not answered why. Modern dumps aren't going to leech anything from the bags, and we can deal with the garbage issue (I heartily recommend watching the PTBS episode on this). So, unless you can come up with something other than "Most people really enjoy using them, and we make more of them than *I* want us to make, so I'll impose my opinion on others under the guise of environmentalism", I'm not seeing any sense here.
Talk about most useless patent ever. As we move away from disposable bags this will be useless. Can I get a patent on storing if the customer uses cloth bags?
Is the sale of soda in plastic single-use bottles somehow environmentally more friendly than the sale of water?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The amount of plastic in a big black trash bag is probably as much as ten grocery bags. It's much larger and also much thicker.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Last I checked, the best-selling beers in Belgium were all generic, tasteless pale lagers. Are you really going to get snobbish over Jupiler?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Paper or Plastic?
That's just a data point in a store's database, that could easily be accessed when customers "Rewards" cards are swiped.
This isn't some brand new idea/creation.
It's data, plain and simple.
Anyway, I've used reusable bags for a long time but I do think there are unanswered questions about them. The biggest thing is how much energy and waste does one reusable bag use compared with a paper or plastic bag disposed of through various means - e.g., through recycling, reuse as trash bags (even my environmentally-moronic roommate picked up that idea), or just as plain old trash?Most of my other questions rely on the answer to those questions.
Mod parent up!.
When visiting the London Technical Museum (or whatever is the name) I saw some stuff about disposable against reusable goods.
A figure I remember was the natural resources needed to produce a small "backed clay" coffee mug (thus reusable) were ~600x that of producing a (small) plastic coffee cup. So that you needed to re-use that clay mug some 600x in order to match the plastic mug, and that wasn't counting the resources used to wash the clay mug after every use.
...storing a language preference when I stick my card in the cash machine.
My paper or plastic mood changes from day to day, whether I want to consume crude oil or trees. I tend not to change languages very often.
Have gnu, will travel.
Seems to easy to work, but why not?
Blar.
And (IMHO) like most IBM patents, this one is full of shit, which is why I personally do not partake of the IBM patent "bonus" system. This system is reason you see so many patents coming out of this company. When you can make many thousands of dollars a year in bonuses just by coming up with inane shit to patent, the system is ripe for abuse.
Why did I waste my time learning to speak?
As a number of people have pointed out, they use their plastic supermarket bags as rubbish bags - now they are harder to get, they buy plastic rubbish bags instead - how exactly is anything helped?
The plastic rubbish bags are stronger and thicker, they will last longer.
The recycled paper bags also take a lot more energy to produce than the plastic bags, leading to a greater total amount of polution.
Most of this of course came from the miss-printed australian research indicating that plastic bags were slaughtering out marine life - pity it was a missprint and later retracted by the original author.
If you want a plastic to hate on, the thick strong plastic used to surround just about any electrical item in a department store these days would be a good start, that stuff is a terrible form of packaging to start with (often quadruples the size of the time, and is hell to open), and is a thick strong plastic that will take much longer than a thin bag to ever break down.
Of course any sensible supermarket (IMHO of course, ie: the ony one I will willingly shop at) simple re-use the packing boxes the goods come in for customers to use and done even have any form of bag available, but then that is just too hard for most 'consumers'.
Also, I am willing to bet most people create a much larger mass of waste 'plastic' from the car tyres they wear out than in plastic bags, and those things last forever (however they do make great potatoe growing enclosures and garden sidewalls..)
My great sadness about the current crop of reactionish 'greenies' is that they want someone (ie: the government) to provide some kind of magical 'big picture' fix for everything, and have lost the plot when it comes to the things THEY should be doing. If people started saving for a start, consuming less, and repairing items that could be fixed a lot of these problems would be removed.
Ah, actually there is a place like that, ies called europe I think.. some big country that has yet to join the good old USA from memory ;)
Of course they dont have a lot of hummers or the latest blueray player in every house though, best not to think about it really.
A quick-swipe card for patent investigators which stores their personal "patent or no-patent" preference, so they don't have to bother discussing new applications.
From the parent's link:
Someone please fix? Thx.
Of course, I need to figure out what to do with the other 97 bags I have...
Well, you put them in one bag to place in the recycling bin(whether at home or elsewhere).
The problem is that while some people have uses for lots of bags(the lady who picks up dog doo with them), some, like me, don't. I find them too small for most kitchen usage, it takes me months to fill up the bathroom can, as small as it is. For that matter, half the time I dump the bathroom bag into the kitchen bag when I'm taking it out for sanitary reasons.
It'd be more helpful if the grocery sized bags were a bit bigger - as is they're a bit small even for my bathroom basket.
I don't read AC A human right
Sometimes I want paper, and sometimes I want plastic. I reuse the bags for various things, and will have a need for one above the other.
Maybe think of it this way.
We have products designed to be used only once, that will last for freakin centuries.
And it's not just bags of course, bottles, and many other things that are mass-produced, used once or twice, and tossed where they will sit for millenia, and they probably won't be contributing to the environment to say the least.
It doesn't make any sense, except maybe short term economical sense, but the whole green movement is about investing in the long term health of the planet instead of raping it cause we can.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
We own several nice, strong canvas bags which we always take food shopping with us as well as a cloth tube containing old plastic food bags for fruits and veggies. This is basic shopping sense folks.
"The environmental issues we face today are the result of generations of incremental and seemingly insignificant choices made by billions of people - why should the solutions be any different?"
Oooh, awesome line.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
Not all plastic comes from oil. Most forms of biodegradable plastics actually comes from organic substances, normally plant.
That's what makes them biodegradable.
I don't read AC A human right
The grocery stores in my area seem to have mostly solved this "unnecessary inconvenience" -- they simply don't provide the paper bags anymore. More specifically, it seems they only restock the paper bags maybe once a month or so, which of course run out in about a week. After that, you get plastic bags (period!) simply because they refuse to get enough of the paper bags everyone prefers.
Plastic bags also seem immensely more wasteful, since they are so small and flimsy it takes approximately a bajillion more bags per cartload to fit everything and requires double bagging all your items so they don't split the sides.
{ - Generic Guy - }
To ensure that HAL pigeon-holes you by telling you that you have to choose, a special patent has been issued for this innovative new idea so that others don't take the idea and profit from it and deprive HAL from losing yet more money because you know that HAL doesn't have a lot of money, except to spend on these type of innovative new patents. The forced choice will be stored in an elaborate DB3 database where only one bit per customer will be used to save on costs of storage. The single bit will possibly store zero for plastic and one for paper, or perhaps the other way around. It may flip around in future versions.
So...what if I change my mind? To I get to spend 1+ hours on hold with my credit card company? Do I then have to wait another 2-4 weeks for my new card to arrive?
Thanks for saving me time, IBM.
why are stores still offering free bags to people?
they could charge, and should. 50 cents a trip, or bring your own cloth bags (and carry for free).
be a regular, great customer in our store, and we'll give you as many ad-draped cloth bags as you need each month.
people's habits would change ... go to the grocery, bring your bags.
http://208.69.42.194/scpfiles/Dangers_of_Plastic_Bags.ppt
What, no tomato?
Not Spaming. I built my deck with this material. It is much better than wood. http://www.trex.com/whytrex/EnvironmentallyFriendly.aspx Trex outdoor decking and walkway material. Trex is one of the largest plastic bag recyclers in the United States. 7 out of every 10 recycled grocery bags in the U.S. end up at Trex (about 1.5 billion per year)
I think Obama's intention isn't to save oil by inflating tires to increase the efficiency of vehicles on the road. I think he's aware of how gullible most Americans are. Coupled with the attitude of "some is good, more is better," he's probably wagering on saving oil by hoping we over-inflate our tires to the point of highway blowouts.
But hey, a car with buggered tires is a car that's not consuming oil!
(For the record, before I get modded down for mild sarcasm, I'm actually afraid this is what might happen. I've seen too many people take the advice of politicians a bit too literally. I also wouldn't put it passed people to inflate their tires to the point of rupture--remember that traveling on hot roads at highway speeds will increase the tire pressure as the gas inside expands. If you over-inflate them as some people are bound to do, you run the risk of bursting them.)
He who has no
So that you needed to re-use that clay mug some 600x in order to match the plastic mug, and that wasn't counting the resources used to wash the clay mug after every use.
I know coffee drinkers who drink multiple cups of coffee in a day. Myself, I drink tea: anywhere from none during the summertime to seven or eight cups during wintertime. For me, one year of using a mug more than makes up for the added environmental cost, including washing up.
And I have mugs on the mug rack in my kitchen that are more than twenty years old. That's a lot of plastic cups that I didn't use once and then throw away.
The invention, Big Blue explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked.
Bah! The "Paper or Plastic?" question, that's nothing. There is a far greater scourge that blights the daily lives of mankind! Behold *my* new invention to eliminate the unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier of the dreaded... "Would you like fries with that?" question!
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Or so it goes in San Francisco... Plastic bags were once the savior of the rain forests are now the only terrorists cities like San Francisco recognize. IBM's patent and application are as useful as asking "leaded or unleaded" at a California gas station. Why on Earth IBM would waste its time is beyond me. Its not like store clerks are going to pay attention. Half the time my canvas bags are on top of the items they are bagging they look right past the bags and fill a plastic bag before I have point out the obvious to them. Thanks IBM. Thanks for nothing.
A patent on putting a sticker on a card. I have a better idea. I'm gonna patent the Flux Capacitor, which is what makes time travel possible. Oh, wait, someone beat me to it. Shucks.
McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
A plastic bag costs in the ballpark of 25c (US) and a paper bag about 50c (US).
My goodness. In the US a good plastic bag costs about 2c in volume. Worthless plastic bags can be had for half a cent if you're Wal*Mart.
Are the merchants making profit on the bags or are they being taxed at 1000%? 50c is really harsh for the local timber industry.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Will my ATM card finally remember that my preferred language is English? I mean, honest, its not so annoying to hear 'paper or plastic' to me compared to constantly being harassed for a language preference every time I stick the card in the moneyhell machine. You'd figure that with all the other data that is stored on an ATM card it should know after a couple years of use you never choose the other languages available...
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
Your argument appears to be that as large corporations helped to change a habit with a solution that may have benefited them too that you should simply revert to the more environmentally damaging behaviour. Who's being illogical?
You either misunderstood my argument in a spectacular way, or you just constructed a very weak straw man.
My argument was that large corporations helped change a habit with a solution that benefited them and DID NOT benefit the environment. Years from now they'll be talking about how these bags made things worse not better. I'm tired of smug sheep who've been brainwashed into thinking these bags are fantastic looking down on me for not fitting into the sheep mentality. It's no different to security theatre. You choose to believe the large corporations who've done well in creating a conflict of interest (since they profit if you buy the bags) despite independent sources stating that these bags don't help. Presumably you do so because it's the trend, without analysing any facts beyond what you've been fed by these corporations. So I believe it is most certainly you that's being illogical, and a sheep to boot.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Still safe to have 'Paper Please' on my baseball cap? a stick pin? belt buckle?
Maybe i need a patent for improvements to their 'invention'
The summary seems to ignore the possibility of not wanting any packaging and not wanting a user provided 'cloth' bag. And for that matter, boxes are ignored.
Personally, I prefer canvas bags with heavy duty handles. My family has some that has been in use for fifteen or more years and have had their handles replaced a couple of times. Since some of the stores in the area give a five cent a bag credit, we've more than paid for the bags AND the replacement handles.
The problem is, there are a lot of people out there who are stuck driving old piece of crap cars with old piece of crap oxidized wheels that leak a pound per week because the seal between the tires and the rim is made leaky by the corrosion, who simply cannot afford anything better
The truth is, even with old wheels, you could take them into a shop and get them cleaned pretty easily and cheaply, but my experience is that most people with old junkers just want to keep them running period, at absolute minimum expenditure because they are pretty close to broke, and are not too concerned about going out of their way to keep them running optimally.
One would hope those people would regularly check their inflation, but I've had some friends with cars like that, and I'm pretty sure they only inflated them when they were pretty obviously soft.
The major problem with any attempt by a President to try to get people to do something like this is that it is *guaranteed* to fail. If *everyone*, both republican and democrat, who listen to political speaches and kept up with the news did take Obama's advice, that'd be what, 5 or 10% of the population? It's my experience that most people don't pay any attention to the news or politics, and wouldn't participate in something like this anyhow.
Government energy policy shouldn't rely on voluntary behavior modification by the American people. That's not energy policy, that's just wishful thinking. If the government really wants to reduce American fuel consumption, there are only two ways - Price rationing (the current situation, where the poor just can't afford to buy enough gas, but the rich aren't too badly affected), or mandatory rationing (where everyone is affected, theoretically).
That's really the only two options. Voluntary energy saving measures only happen on a large scale because people are forced to either because they can't afford more energy, or aren't allowed any more energy. Obama and his green buddies checking their tire pressure won't make any noticeable difference if 90-95% of the population doesn't participate.
I just can't figure out how this sort of thing is even patentable. It's one bit of data about a customer's preference for type of grocery bag. Is this a business practice? It is defiantly not novel or non-obvious. So if i wanted to store information on if a customer wanted to be called by their first name or by sir or madam, would that be patentable (assuming of course that you didn't count my just describing my invention in the last sentence)?
after every use.
Well, there's your problem. Quit letting people spit in it and you won't have to wash it to keep your coffee from tasting so funny.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Patent a method to protect ideas, concepts, designs, devices, and or processes. Then sue the Patent office, and patent holders, for using your patent without a licence.
My argument was that large corporations helped change a habit with a solution that benefited them and DID NOT benefit the environment.
More expensive plastic bags means less people use the bags only once, they reuse or find alternate means of carrying groceries - that's a benefit of savings in energy and resources.
It's the same way that increased fuel prices reduces usage with a net benefit in reduced emissions of NOx, CO2, etc.. The "energy owners" benefit from more profit, but the environment benefits too.
How is that illogical?
I use some organic hemp bags, some cotton (unbleached), some plastic (I have a bad memory and don't always remember to take the bags with me). At our store we use recycled brown paper bags, we're the only shop in our city that doesn't use plastic AFAIK, I guess I'm just following the crowd?
and I'm a Bank of America customer too. interesting.
..........FULL STOP.
No. You made a piss-poor attempt at a troll about fitting three trolleyloads into a bag, which is total bollocks as I already pointed out.
Tough luck. Are you a man or a mouse?
Do they allow tinfoil hats?
Aren't you used to that?
Tell you what, if you stop wasting oxygen we've got a deal.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
More expensive plastic bags means less people use the bags only once, they reuse or find alternate means of carrying groceries
Nice little theory. I suspect in practice that people just wear the cost of the plastic bags, use them and bitch about using them, or praise themselves for using enviro bags even though they break quite often, they don't get the hundreds of uses (vs plastic bags) that are wildly claimed by biased companies, and they may be a net DRAIN on the environment rather than a benefit. The fact is people aren't that organized. They don't always remember to bring their bags and are quite likely to say stuff it and just buy more enviro bags (or plastic bags) if they reach the counter and realize they've left their old enviro bags behind. Meanwhile they're being used for everything from storage bags for homeless people to handy bags for the garage. They're environmentally friendly right? So using more must be a good thing. So if I start using them for everything and use more than I'd use plastic bags, I can still pat myself on the back while I ruin our environment because hey it's doubleplusgood according to the group think.
It's the same way that increased fuel prices reduces usage with a net benefit in reduced emissions of NOx, CO2, etc.. The "energy owners" benefit from more profit, but the environment benefits too.
Oh yeah that really works. Have you seen the trend for fuel emissions lately? Or are those pesky facts not important enough to get in the way of you being a goddamn sheep? Instead of ruining struggling families with crippling fuel prices what we need to do is start really working on alternative fuels and collecting and converting the energy with a minimal impact. Unfortunately you have to convince rich oil men to give up a very lucrative source of revenue to accomplish that. Fuels need to be taxed more heavily but that money should either be going back into alternative fuel research, or be distributed elsewhere instead of encouraging the rich to get richer selling us oil. When it starts to become unprofitable to sell carbon based fuels and is more profitable to sell alternatives that don't fuck up the environment, only then will we see reduction in emissions. What you're suggesting - letting oil tycoons prosper by raising the price is so fucking counter productive that I question the sanity let alone logic of the bunk you're spreading.
Hello I'm sheik Rattle and Roll. I see you're having a pollution problem. I can help fix that by selling oil to you for more denar. Make us both happy.
How is that illogical?
I already explained that there is a conflict of interest. What do I need to do to get the message through? Tattoo it on my forehead and point at it repeatedly? A supermarket chain telling you enviro bags are good for the environment and selling them is no different to tobacco companies claiming cigarettes are good for you and selling them. You can't rely on the source of the information or any source you suspect has been influenced by the corporation.
I use some organic hemp bags, some cotton (unbleached), some plastic (I have a bad memory and don't always remember to take the bags with me).
Are you a South Park fan? Smug alert! Do you spend the day sniffing your own farts?
Even if you truly do remember your bags you're in the fucking minority.
At our store we use recycled brown paper bags, we're the only shop in our city that doesn't use plastic AFAIK, I guess I'm just following the crowd?
If you work at the store and make the policy, good for you. Try also offering incentives for using the packaging the goods are delivered in. If you don't work at the store, I guess rather than following the crowd you're taking credit for the work of others.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
No. You made a piss-poor attempt at a troll about fitting three trolleyloads into a bag, which is total bollocks as I already pointed out.
Oh yeah I'm the one trolling. Go get some lessons in comprehension, twit!
Tough luck. Are you a man or a mouse?
I'm a man, not a mouse, and not a troll like your good self. I'm bound by the laws and social customs of men, and I know how to fit into society. I don't live under a bridge and do as I please.
Do they allow tinfoil hats?
Oh yes I must be a nutty conspiracy theorist (even though the stores are making a mint selling crappy bags to morons like yourself). Tell you what, save the environment the stress of processing alfoil and put the bag over your head. It'll even double as a cosmetic aid.
Aren't you used to that?
Nope, you're the one who lives under a bridge buddy.
Tell you what, if you stop wasting oxygen we've got a deal.
Tell ya what I've got this new environmentally friendly oxygen in this here bag to sell you. The free oxygen isn't good for the environment but this stuff actually belches fairy dust when you inhale it instead of expelling CO2. Only $100 a bag.
The wonderful irony of a wanker like you calling me a troll. Here, take your piss weak insults and straw men with you. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Oh and one more thing. I'm not Lebanese, but that shouldn't matter. I've known nice people of all nationalities and arseholes of all nationalities. Guess which group you fit into. I find your rascism disgusting. Talk about polluting the environment! You're a human turd. Worse you're a human turd who decides to talk about how clean he is.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
IBM or some other patent troll granted "For here or to Go" patent?
If you don't work at the store, I guess rather than following the crowd you're taking credit for the work of others.
I set the policy, I'm a director of the business, I also (FWIW) work at the store. We reuse packaging used for deliveries including stuff brought in by our customers - it doesn't look as nice as new stuff. Sure, we have waste, we have non-recyclable consumables, we try to do our bit.
My farts don't smell nice incidentally, I don't get the reference haven't seen SP in at least 8 years.
Nice little theory. I suspect in practice that people just wear the cost of the plastic bags, use them and bitch about using them, or praise themselves for using enviro bags even though they break quite often, they don't get the hundreds of uses (vs plastic bags) that are wildly claimed by biased companies, and they may be a net DRAIN on the environment rather than a benefit.
The theory is based on observation, there's been a huge increase in the numbers using textile bags in the UK partly through companies sponsoring textile bags. Also all major chains have "bag for life" (ours seemed to last a couple of years). What are these "enviro bags" which break so often? Where do you get the stats that supermarket plastic bags are used 100s of times - especially as others claim here that they break on the first use quite often? Paper bags are great as they can be composted, reused for wrapping (yes I wrap presents in reused brown paper, cheap ain't I) or packing fruit/veg to stop it getting sweaty and spoiling ... hmmm I could go on.
As for fuel - road miles driven by people in my community have reduced due to increased fuel costs. I'm not claiming for a minute that the Oil-co.s are doing it for environmental reasons just that it's a side effect. They increase prices because they can: we reduce mileage, the net is still increased profits.
In summary, if it's not working - you should still try and fix it.
Huh... At the stores here (Iowa), they stopped carrying paper bags like 10 years ago. "Paper or plastic?" Not a question.
They have solved one of the biggest issues known to man. Really making life better!
At sam's, will it say box or buggy?
In case you didn't notice, the question was WHY do you think plastic bags are a "HUGE problem". A question you singularly failed to answer in your post.