Slashdot Mirror
Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts
An anonymous reader tips a guest posting up on the MAKE Magazine blog by the author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. It seems that authorities in Massachusetts have raided a home chemistry lab, apparently without a warrant, and made off with all of its contents. Here's the local article from the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. "Victor Deeb, a retired chemist who lives in Marlboro, has finally been allowed to return to his Fremont Street home, after Massachusetts authorities spent three days ransacking his basement lab and making off with its contents. Deeb is not accused of making methamphetamine or other illegal drugs. He's not accused of aiding terrorists, synthesizing explosives, nor even of making illegal fireworks. Deeb fell afoul of the Massachusetts authorities for... doing experiments... Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
... that something is wrong with Kansas ?
These hyper-red and hyper-blue states both have issues with people. The former set of control freaks try to make you a religion borg while the latter set of control freaks try their hand making you a state-uber-alles borg.
Chemistry for chemistry's sake has been banned all along. Check out this article on how to get your banned pdf copy of one cool 1960s chemistry book with some not-so-cool experiments...
Sounds like the actions of typical small-minded, small-town bureaucrats who are skilled mainly in keeping and expanding their power.
This is what the environment of hysteria is doing to the US.
Who exactly is terrorizing us these days? Seems like our "elected officials" just want us to be scared all the time so we won't really think about what's going on.
People are never as simple as their stereotypes. This applies equally to Christians, Muslims, and Emacs-lovers.
SO call the FBI and complain that the local police entered and arrested you without a warrant. Call the local and national media. Make a big stink about it. Start a website. The Massachusetts police are morons and they need to be put in their place.
Better living through chemistry!
Please make note that there are ignorant LEFTIES as well, and that this didn't occur in some religious-frenzied backwater.
There are regulations about how much [of various chemicals] you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of.
Depending on the specifics of what this guy's dealing with, he may be subject to rules regarding the safe disposal of certain chemicals, etc.
Amnesty International
I wonder how long before people in possession of scary "hacking software and equipment" are subjected to similar intrusions? Welcome to the NewUSA, where all knowledge is classified.
Caveat Utilitor
Is how they knew he had chemicals in his basement in the first place...
Knows everything about nothing and nothing about everything.
Fuck first post, but mostly FUCK the POLICE! If this guy wants to play with his chemistry set so be it. Let's put all the cops in jail because I'm sure they have crossed the line.
If you have enough laws, then anyone is a criminal. They'll either claim its a violation of zoning ordinances, environmental hazard or an OSHA violation.
This is where we are going. The government is fostering the notion to the police that they have absolute discretion & power. Can you find the limited government here?.. Neither can I.
From TFA:
"Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties."
If they discovered that you were keeping 200 cats in your home under extremely unsanitary conditions, they would do the same thing: move all of the cats to a shelter somewhere, and charge you with violating local health regulations once they had assessed the entire situation. I think it's a little bit of a kneejerk reaction to say that they're "ignorantly and irrationally afraid of chemicals" and "abus[ing] power to steal his property".
Would you rather they just ask him "hey, is any of this dangerous?" and leave when he says "no"? There are reasons why we regulate stuff like chemicals (you have to have a permit just to own / use some professional beauty products), and if he wasn't following whatever the local regulations were, then it's his fault.
Now, if it turns out he was indeed following all local / state laws, then the authorities certainly owe him an apology at least.
Don't you?
This is just another representation of the government attempting to control the lives of citizens under the guise of protecting the masses.
Although he could be using his home chemistry lab to do illegal things, the government should not be allowed to enter and seize on the ability to do wrong, only on the reasonable suspicion.
If the ability to cause problems was a legitimate reason to stop someone from practicing their hobby, then what about gun enthusiasts? What about drunks? And what about people with cars?
I don't care if you have a home chemistry set, just don't blow up my house.
Once you infringe on my rights, you're in the wrong - and that applies equally to the government!
So his ''crime'' was to do something slightly different from the rest of the population.
Then I got to thinking: What is normal, what does Mr average do in his spare time ? Does this mean that anyone who does anything except: watch TV, visit shopping malls or go to the pub is weird and so under suspicion ?
I think that I'll put my walking boots on and think about it on a long stroll .... drat - that'll put me under the microscope :-)
There are always people with authority and the stupidity to use it. So he's been shut down, yes it's terrible - and illegal - and unconstitutional. Perhaps the best way to show your outrage: buy his book: at $29 bucks, why not? That way, just in case justice is not done, he will be able to be well financed to return to his work.
The EAA had the same fight about home builders. :)
For those that don't know the EAA represnts people that build their own airplanes or restore old ones. At least one town made it illegal. The EAA usually fights such things and often wins.
Too bad there isn't an EAA for Chemistry.
BTW I am a member of the EAA
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Probably thought he was developing a new kind of hoax device.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
There have been similar problems for those who handload ammunition. "Oh my god, this man had 12 pounds of gunpowder in his garage! And look at all this ammunition! It's an arsenal of destruction!"
And no, that's not hyperbole. It's happened. Generally only in places like California or Massachusetts, with their high proportion of Gun Fearing Weenies(tm), but not exclusively.
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." Col. Jeff Cooper
It seems that authorities in Massachusetts have raided a home chemistry lab, apparently without a warrant
I know how he feels (NSFW)
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
...is to get yourself labeled as a crackpot.
Since when has there existed a reference standard for how people should live in their own homes? Who's home is it, his or the State's?
How many posts would it take for someone to use the word 'totalitarian', I wonder, were this story to have originated from a Communist country?
Sue the ignorant bitch (Pamela Wilderman) her employers, the state, any judge issuing a warrant without cause etc.
This seems like a golden opportunity for some group of unemployed/underemployed shysters to raise some hell!
I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
I can't imagine how they would have reacted if they found the basement lab I had when I was a teenager. I did some of the synthesizing explosives and making my own fireworks, along with some other experiments I am sure the local police would now find very alarming.
Crikey, it is now definitely a "everything not compulsory is forbidden" country.
When the officer says, "This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation," he's implying a zoning violation. It can be answered with, "This is not what we consider to be a customary neighborhood nuisance." Zoning laws should protect people from things like junk yards, car dealerships and noisy manufacturing. Going after this man is a stretch of those intentions.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
looks like that little piss ant from Ghost Busters that through the switch.
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
Dr Frankenstein, why are that village people in front of our door again?
Information technology means all information.
Now, a bunch of silly fools that never took chemistry even in college are doing their best to outlaw what every intelligent child in the 60s and 70s did for fun.
As a result, the US has not been doing groundbreaking chemistry in over a decade.
Granted, computers are a big lure, but chemistry is the basis of our industry. We need to ENCOURAGE kids and adults to do chemistry, not prevent it with idiotic, foolish laws.
If it is not more dangerous than fertilizer and diesel fuel, or styrofoam and gasoline, than it should be legal for a 16 year old kid to buy in the mail, without a license.
Anythinge else is rank hipocracy and stupidity.
P.S. I am not recommending a 12 year old do explosive experiments unsupervised, but I hate to tell you, THEY DO IT ANYWAY. They just go and get an aerosole can and a lighter, instead of ordering a kit.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Looks like it's just about time to start spelling it "Amerika". Nice experiment...too bad it failed when too many people decided they'd rather live on their knees than die on their feet.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I'm impressed. People stepped up when someone was carting chemistry equipment into their home. Hopefully an understanding will be reached, and he'll be allowed to continue his research.
Home experimentalist types should live in a more rural area though. Especially if you're bringing in barrels of chemicals, blowing shit up or operating high power RF equipment.
The following link is to the "inspections" division of the city where the zealot works. Phone numbers and emails are listed. Just an FYI http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index
How dare he ! burn the witch !!
At least he will be able to get a better home lab after he brings this to court.
"Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."
appears nowhere in the linked article, yet kdawson has chosen to sensationalize by adding his own words and making it look as if they were part of the article.
In fact the article actually states:
"Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties. "
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
From the article: "Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws."
After reading the article, I'm pretty unimpressed with the selective quoting in the blurb. Not only were laws broken, but from the description of the house, it sounds like there was at least a little reason to want to investigate, if perhaps not launch a cleanup. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
According to TFA, "Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties."
Also according to TFA, Mr. Deeb invited the fire department into his home, to deal with an an unrelated fire.
So, it seems that a violation was committed (though the question of the reasonability of the regulations in question remains open), and that this wasn't some sort of "no knock" raid.
Also, the fact that the chemicals in question were no more dangerous than typical household chemicals is not relevant - a lot of household chemical are very dangerous and are only permitted because they are typically kept in small quantities. It's one thing to have a can of bug spray, another to store a ton of pesticides.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
They seem to support home chemistry in them thar parts.
Oh wait, he's not making meth.
Nevermind!!!
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
I've got $10 for his legal defense. I didn't RTFA in detail, but does anyone know if one has been started and, if so, where to send my $10.
And I'm serious here, so no jokes about "Just send your bank account number to this e-mail address is Zimbabwe and we'll take care of the rest".
This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.
I find it troubling that hobbyists are less trusted than corporations (assuming that these same experiments, performed by a corporation, would pose no problem - which I think the above quote pretty clearly implies). First, it is a really stupid idea from the American economy standpoint - we've made a lot of hay in this country's history on garage hackers (think: personal computer, for example). Second, what exactly makes corporations (which are made up of individuals) more trustworthy than non-corporate individuals? Timothy McVeigh? USAMRIID Anthrax. This is utterly stupid, and clearly the result of a panic'd mind more concerned with a pretense of safety than with the success of this great nation.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
They were probably in the basement checking the breaker box and the electrical connections to the air conditioner, looking for potential electrical fires in the wall, when they found Mr. Wizard's stash.
I suspect they're the ones who turned this into a fiasco. They probably complained that if they were ever to respond to a serious fire at this house, the unknown effects of all those chemicals burning could be deadly. I know TFA said only a few were flammable, but some stuff when it burns releases deadly gases, toxins, etc.
Firefighters want to know that when they enter into a burning house, they are not going to be exposed to the equivalent of a burning college chemistry lab. They get paid to take risks, but some end up with health problems later in life because of all the toxic stuff they've inhaled over the years.
They are probably making an example of this guy as a warning to others with stashes of chemicals.
That said, I don't think the authorities had the right to take over the house and rummage through it. They should get an omelette on their collective faces for that.
Shouldn't they know for sure that something is amiss before they make raids like this?
I think they are way over the line and will be making a comment here: http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/comments
Yeah it's comments for the website but hey it's somewhere.
PM
I dont know if anyone else feels the parallels to Asimovs description of events of fall of the galactic empire and rise of the foundations.
Are prosecutors up for election in Massachusetts? Because donating to this guys opponent looks kind of attractive.
King George III (and by George I /don't/ mean Bush) is alive and well, residing very close to where the American Revolution began. The Fifth Columnists / useful idiots are well positioned and ready to re-implement the King's policies and tactics.
The police here are the real criminals. In any other uniform, they would be called 'armed robbers' and hauled off to jail. In my humble opinion, this crime forfeits their status as 'police' or 'law enforcement' and their legal protection as such. They should be arrested, charged, convicted, and sentenced for armed robbery, grand theft, breaking and entering, and impersonation of a police officer, along with any other crimes the state prosecutor can come up with.
OK! Galt's Gulch! For real! Who's with me?
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
(crickets)
Huh.
I want her sued for everything she's worth. I want her deported to China. I don't want her in my fucking country anymore. I want my America and my Bill of Rights back.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
It's ironic that certain politicians (mostly Republicans, who are all about individual rights and small government) are so hot on this pursuit of putting down terrsts wherever they may be when their methods are, in fact, in line with certain nanny-states around the world. We've gotten to the point where we value just staying alive more than actually living.
Really, the above is a bit far from the inflamitory accusations of ironshod goosestepping that the blog author insinuates.
There is a difference between having a hobby bench and doing 'science' and running a chem lab. One is harmless, the other is only harmless when you take the proper safety percautions.
all your base are belong to us, and your acids too.
the real question is whether the US's current direction will change after the election. I have a feeling that even if Obama wins, it won't be easy to turn around the train...
—Men in Black
There is nothing wrong with science at home IF HE followed all the regs about how you store and dispose of chemicals and hazardous materials. If on the other hand he had stuff there he was not supposed to have, or stored in dangerous ways that are against the law then it's quite acceptable to have the law come in and make things right.
I've seen houses go up in flames because of what people have stored in their garage and basement.
...welcome to America
As usual on Slashdot, what the submitter says happened and what the article says happened aren't the same.
According to the article:
A fire broke out on the 2nd floor of the subject's home. In the process of responding to this, firefighters found a LOT of chemicals, about 1500 different ones to be exact. The home was not zoned to be a chemical lab, so doing so much chemical work there violated zoning laws.
So while it's quite fun to blame "evil" governments, had a fire not broken out nothing would have happened. And nobody who's railing about the government seems to have any smart ideas on how a home user is going to properly dispose of chemical waste in a legal and environmentally sound way. For all we know he was just dumping stuff down the toilet, which probably isn't legal.
Actually it sounds far more like they got wind of the guys lab somehow decided that the only possible reason someone would have a checmistry lab is to make drugs or be a terrorist, raided his house and are now desperately trying to find something he has done wrong so they don't look like incompetent morons.
Of course by not owning up, apologising and making amends they are now coming across as vindictive, malicious incompetent morons. Somebody needs to remind them that when you find yourself in a hole it really is time to stop digging!
Yeah, that stuff is dangerous! We need to stop it RIGHT NOW!
Think of the children! They might get EXPOSED to these vile chemicals.
Call your congressman!
Pam Wilderman's phone number according to the city's website is 1-(508)-460-3765. Give her some hell. She's a public servant. Call and let her know your opinion on the matter.
Lets see how much of my teenage years I can remember...
1) Drilled out the barrel of a decorative brass cannon, emptied out about 200 firecrakers into it, mashed up a bunch of pellets from the pellet gun, stuck a fuse in it, lit it, ran. There was a large explosion. Never found the cannon.
2) That was so cool, tried to make gunpowder. Could never make that work very well so...
3) Made nitro glycerine. Really bad nitro glycerine, but we did manage to blow up the test tube it was in and miraculously not ourselves.
4) Made a video in the chem lab at high school, pretending to be the Devil by turning on the two bunsen-burner gas outlets on either side of the teachers podium and lit them, cool flames shooting 5 feet into the air on either side with my friend standing between them trying to look devilish.
Etc etc. I mean, come on. Everyone thinks flames and blowing stuff up is cool. I suppose if I was a kid today I'd get sent to a psychologist.
Equine Mammals Are Considerably Smaller
not to long ago, I was having fun with my chemistry set. I think at age 12, I had more skull and cross bones in my room then a satanist. Luckily, I only experimented with non-toxic gases. :P Then I discovered electronics and made my mom believe I knew black magic.
Pretty much what you'd expect. Looks to be your garden variety petty bureaucrat, overly impressed by her little bit of power.
to the same place that right wing police state bureaucracy takes you..
Both know better than you and both are only acting for your own good...
"Ahh! Arrogance and stupidity in the same package, how efficient of you!" --Londo Molari
TFA from the local story states something completely different than what the blog article states. The chemist in question had a fire in his house, and this could have really been seriously dangerous just from the fire. The investigation has been cooperative by the chemist himself, and should have been done for the help in cleanup. The only issues that will MAYBE arise is the citations of improper disposal/containment and having too much of types of chemicals at a time.
This is FUD at it's finest. And I hate to say it, but the government was in the right, and the blogger blew everything out of proportion. This is backwards...
This guy appears (based on depictions in the article) to be running an industrial grade chemical lab in his home. That is the kind of lab you might see grad students and professors in at the Chemistry building in a nearby large college or at the research building of a company that makes or uses chemicals. This sure sounds like it is NOT a home chemistry set used for educational purposes (that have only small volumes of 20 to 40 chemicals). The kind of lab this guy apparently has is not appropriate for a residential neighborhood. He should have rented some space in an industrial office park, or moved out into a rural area, or tried to make arrangements with a nearby college.
This is probably news on Slashdot just because it is Massachusetts, which is associated with the city of Boston, which has a bunch of idiots running things there. So Slashdotters and other geeks are always looking for the next screwup in or near that city. But this isn't it. Move along, but keep looking as there is sure to be a genuine screwup somewhere in and around Boston.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I want to note here that the quotes in the summary are from the blog post and not the actual article. It seems the blogger, Robert Bruce Thompson, cut important information from the article in order to make the story more sensationalist. He also made up new 'information' to make the police action seem worse than it was. Nowhere in the article does it say that the authorities didn't have permission or a warrant to enter the house. I strongly suggest you read the full article before rushing to judgement.
There are obvious safety reasons why you can't operate a chemistry lab in your basement in the middle of a residential area. But hey, Robert Thompson, don't let that stop you from writing "There's a word for what just happened in Massachusetts. Tyranny." I mean, this is one short step from Stalinist Russia, right?
But look at it this way, you've already got one slashdot poster confusing you with the guy who operated the lab and demanding people buy your book. So you stand to make a bit of profit off of this free advertising.
I came here for a good argument
You had to make me look, as I was quite surprised about that law. But here it is: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm
What's the big deal?
This is yet another example of the end of freedom, that's what. This is one set of people deciding that you are making the wrong choices with your freedom and they need to make all your choices for you from now on.
They want to choose
- your hobby,
- what games you can play,
- whether you can smoke,
- what you can drink,
- what you can eat,
- what kinds of cars you're allowed to drive,
- how fast,
- where you can live,
- how you celebrate the 4th of July,
- how much money you can make,
- how much money you can pay your employees,
- how you raise your children,
- what jokes you can tell at work,
- the precise mix of fuel in your gas tank,
- what health care you are to be allowed,
- who you can rent housing to,
- what's on your cable TV,
- and what days you can water your lawn.
What's the big deal? Why don't we all just make exactly the choices you might make and then we'll never have a problem?
And the worst thing: the only "solution" people talk about is getting "person C" to be in charge of making everyone's choices for them instead of "person D".
Apparently you forget what it states.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I contacted Ms. Wilderman, who actually answered her phone. http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index
Pamela A. Wilderman Code Enforcement Officer 508 460-3765
She stated that the fire department was called for an apparent fire on the 2nd floor of Mr. Deeb's home. This allowed the firemen entry into the house. Upon further investigation (of the basement for a 2nd floor fire) the firemen discovered the chemicals and brought in the authorities.
Ms. Wilderman said "We have zoning laws for this purpose, the firefighters were called into what they thought was a single family residence only to discover unmarked chemicals in the basement, he had a chemistry lab down there, in an area zoned residential". I informed her that I had an electronics lab, and beer brewing equipment in mine to which she made the comment "I bet your neighbors are thrilled about that". Of course I don't think my neighbors even know because they all mind their own business.
Anyway this brings up a series of questions. Were the chemicals truly unmarked? Mr. Deebs is a retired chemist, surely he would practice some type of protocol. Second, if his activity is not illegal where is the justification of not only seizing the items, but then stating they will be disposed of. Will Mr. Deebs be reimbursed. What if they went into the basement and discovered a person to hand loads his own ammunition? It is a perfectly legal hobby practiced by shooters all over the country. Would they have seized those items?
Finally, I would love to hear Mr. Deebs story on this. His reputation is being destroyed over a simple hobby.
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
One would guess she would have a real problem with someone like Thomas Edison and his chemistry lab on the rail car. There was a day when the basement inventor/chemist/scientist was looked on a hero, someone to look up to and certainly the cornerstone of wealth creation in the country.
Happened to me in Georgia, Valdosta, in 1999 or 2000, dont remember.
I got interested in chemistry during the first year of university and was experimenting in the apartment parking lot.
Then one evening DEA arrested me, sealed off entire block, firefighters came, Air Force bomb squad came. Was not a pleasant experience - ended up with a hefty fine, lots of community service, and a probation.
Home chemistry is not under attack, it is dead.
I live in Sterling MA, and I get the T&G delivered to my house daily. I can't find anything about this in my fuckin paper. Does anyone know what page it's on? please let me know at Analog.Manner@gmail.com
I don't know about other locations, but in San Diego you can operate a neon sign shop in your garage. That entails pulling electric arcs off a 20Kv@1amp transformer that will easily kill a human being on contact during discharge along with operating ultra low pressure two-stage vacuum systems, running multiple oxygen torches with specialized heads and handling large quantities of mercury and hundreds of highly toxic and even mildly radiocative phosphor materials.
Better yet, the products such home businesses produce include xenon, argon, helium, hydrogen discharge tubes that can emit highly hazardous frequencies of radiation. In addition, lasers in the 30watt range are perfectly doable. But why stop there. In addition vacuum tube variations on the thyristor such as the thyratron or ignotron and other components that can be used as military/utility grade high voltage/high current switching ignition devices are perfectly simple to create with the same equipment. That's all perfectly doable and legit in San Diego. Well, I suppose you wouldn't want to be getting into the market for high power ignition devices without a pretty decent reason, but that other stuff is all legit as it should be.
It's just a simple fact that so much powerful high technology is already old news that has been in the public domain for many decades. People growing up in the fifties probably had better knowledge of basic chemistry than the general public does today. Harrassing hobbyists and garage business operators is certainly not going to make anybody safer. Quite the contrary: if you outlaw DIY scientists, then only outlaws will have mad tech skillz.
If she's sued, I'll contribute to her legal defense fund. At least as far as can be told from the original article -- as opposed to the knee-jerk commentary from the under-informed Make guest post -- she did nothing either illegal or wrong.
Is it me or is this practice (entering and raiding people's home without a warrant, trampling people's rights) getting more and more common nowadays in the country formerly known as the Land of the Free?
Having grown up in the Worcester area I'm not surprised. I always felt the people (especially the town governments) in the area were backwards and overly conservative in everything, except of course giving town jobs to their relatives.
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
Actually, if you'll read the full quote, she finishes with: "⦠There are regulations about how much youâ(TM)re supposed to have, how itâ(TM)s detained, how itâ(TM)s disposed of." and the article continues with: "Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments."
So, even though he wasn't actively being a terrorist or doing anything wrong with the chemicals, there are still rules about how you're supposed to handle it and where and he apparently didn't abide by them well enough.
Regarding the lack of a warrant, to the best of my knowledge, if you have something illegal sitting out in plain sight and a law enforcement agency is there on other business, they don't really need a warrant to get at it.
Even the newspaper article linked by the person making the sensational claim doesn't support the claim. The story appears in several places and the facts in each don't support the thesis that "Home Science is Under Attack".
The chemist in question had a fire in his house. While the fire department was responding to the fire, they happened upon the lab with an unusually large array of chemicals and equipment. They asked the man what he was doing with them and he noted that he was a retired chemist, doing his own development at home now, and was even patenting and marketing some of the things he developed.
The fire marshall was concerned that the lab might pose a fire hazard and contacted the DEP per the usual protocol, and they went through and checked it out. They notified the town of the situation, who noted that he was doing commercial chemical R&D (by his own admission, he was) in a residential area in violation of applicable zoning laws. The DEP was required to "close" the lab and clean up any chemicals for which there's a prescribed disposal procedure (e.g., you're not supposed to pour large quantities of it down the sink).
The guy broke zoning laws and he got caught because of an unrelated fire in his house. That's it.
Freedom? What's that? I have my choice of lattes and video games.
Gotta go! American Idol is on.
According to the newspaper article "most likely" violated numerous state and local regulations. Nobody is tossing out specifics because the town isn't planning to issue a citation. At issue is "how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of" in a residential area. So the issue isn't "experimenting", it's storage, processing and disposal at a facility not zoned for those purposes.
Common sense will show you that the scale of experimentation makes a difference. Making a few quarts of biodiesel or a few bars of soap, that's home experimenting. Making a thousand gallons of biodiesel or a thousand pounds of soap is an industrial process. There isn't a precise line between chemistry set stuff and industrial production, but it's there. Making four gallons of beer a week is a lot for a home brewer, but making a hundred gallons a week probably means you've "crossed some line".
The story doesn't really give us enough details to know whether the raid was justified, or served any public purpose. That depends on what they expected to find, why the expected to find it, and what they actually found, none of which is at this time public knowledge. We don't even know what level of government initiated this, it appears it was the town.
One thing that's almost certain is that the search did not require a warrant. It is what is legally called an "administrative search". According to the dictionary an administrative search is "an inspection or search carried out under a regulatory or statutory scheme esp. in public or commercial premises and usu. to enforce compliance with regulations or laws pertaining to health, safety, or security. One of the fundamental principles of administrative searches is that the government may not use an administrative inspection scheme as a pretext to search for evidence of criminal violations."
So the health inspector doesn't need a warrant to check on the crazy lady who has 200 cats in her house, which is a code violation even if its perfectly permissible for her to have 2 cats, or even 20. Likewise I can have a dog or two, but I can't run a kennel in a densely populated suburban neighborhood unless I have a zoning variance (and possibly pay commercial tax rates).
You can argue that there shouldn't be such thing as zoning regulations. And its probably true that there are many places where there is little or no purpose to them. But zoning laws and administrative searches are NOT unconstitutional, at least by the interpretation of the Constitution that has held sway for a century or more.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Pamela A. Wilderman Code Enforcement Officer 508 460-3765
I'm getting sick of the police/narrow minded people having so much power. I was painting my car, with an HVLP gun and spraying less than 5 gallons of paint per year, well within the law in Texas. Well long story short my neighbors see me in a nylon suit with a gas mask and call me in as a meth lab.
Cops came by and the saw me painting. One of them pulled me out by my fresh air line and I started swearing at him because I didn't see he was a cop. Long story short I had a 280lb man throw me on the ground.
Then when they found out I wasn't violating any laws they told me if I was painting or welding again they'd pursue public nuisance.
So the cycle has completed, the narrow minded have take over in America and crushed what innovation there was. When is someone going to discover a new continent so we can start the cycle over again?
40 years ago, this man was considered the norm. We did chemical experiments in our house. NOBODY thought it was bizarre. This man writes a book on how to learn about chemistry at home and they raid his home without a warrent?????? Here in America, We have entered a VERY dark age.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
"Stupidity not more dangerous than knowlege" - Massachusetts Authrorities.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
...and I did not speak up because I was not an amateur chemist.
Then they came for the model rocketeers and I did not speak up because I was not a model rocketeer.
They they came for the r/c pilots and I did not speak up because I was not an r/c pilot...
shut up, buy stuff and watch TV, prole.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
R&D Lab in residential neighborhood. It's a zoning case. Ostensibly-- the city official describes it as a "hobby" but he did tell them he patents things and experiments may be related, in their view.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
Jackson County Michigan just got rid of such a petty bureaucrat. She was an animal control officer that put a pig farmer out of business because his pigs were in the mud. Well, the problem is that mud is necessary for pigs well being, it helps them keep from getting sunburned and it cools them. This same officer then (about a year or two later) raided a horse farm because she didn't like the way the horses looked (remember these horses are livestock not pets). A vet friend of mine looked at the horses and didn't see anything wrong - yet the county found some lackey vet to say that there was a sick horse in the herd (a very common occurence when you have more than 2 horeses). The upshot of this story is that the animal control officer no longer has her job and the county is getting sued for the value of the horses they confiscated and sold at auction. I would expect that this ordinance officer will meet the same fate when the agrieved party hires an attorney and sues both her personally (for civil rights violations) and the city/county for other things. These things have a way of working themselves out.
I know this won't be popular here...but storing hazardous/flammable/whatever chemicals ON THE FLOOR is not a lab. It's a hazard.
You want to run a chem lab in a neighborhood? You better notify your neighbors clearly - especially if there's a fire. You should probably also consider storing chemicals properly.
I halfway wish he had a bit of sodium in that basement Yeah, that could have been VERY interesting with all that water flowing down through the walls and ceilings.... At least they would have only been occupying his pile of rubble then.
But hey, his rights to house flammable (and possibly explosive) chemicals trumps everything else. DAMN POLICE STATE!!!
Him and his friends used to make Pipe Bombs!
Yup, real actual bombs. Till one of his friends was killed by one.
Any kid doing that today would be jailed and screwed for life. Feynman got to win a Nobel Prize, and, um, develop the Atom Bomb (but we'll ignore that one..).
I'm not saying he should have been doing such dangerous stuff as a kid, but the point is, smart kids will do complicated but dumb things just because its fun.
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
The poster wrote:
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.'
The actual article says:
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws. It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood," she said. "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ... There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
Either the poster didn't properly read, or he/she just considers zoning bylaws useless. For those that do think zoning bylaws serve no point, let me reference the recent propane explosion that occured in the middle of a Toronto residential neighbourhood, leaving two people dead and hundreds of homes damaged, and is now the subject of a zoning review
It's cases like this that our founding fathers included the 4th amendment in the Bill of Rights. The code officer and fire department didn't have a warrent, didn't have probable cause, and didn't have the authority to remove items be they household cleaner or chemistry appartus. (The fire department doesn't have the authority to seize your property, but the police do.) If they thought a law was being broken, they had plenty of time to alert the police/state troopers/FBI/etc, build a case, and get a warrent. This is nothing more than a gross violation of this man's 4th amendment rights. IANAL but some days I wish I were. I hope this guy really sticks it to "the man".
It was the local authorities of Marlboro who undertook the raid. Not the state of Massachusetts. But then, this is Slashdot, we don't let simple facts get in the way of misinterpreting a story.
Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.'
The actual article says:
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws. It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood," she said. "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ... There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
Either the poster didn't properly read, or he/she just considers zoning bylaws useless. For those that do think zoning bylaws serve no point, let me reference the recent propane explosion that occured in the middle of a Toronto residential neighbourhood, leaving two people dead and hundreds of homes damaged, and is now the subject of a zoning review
--
Luck is just skill you didn't know you had.
I find it troubling that hobbyists are less trusted than corporations (assuming that these same experiments, performed by a corporation, would pose no problem - which I think the above quote pretty clearly implies).
Running a company is going to require a number of licenses and inspections, depending on the type of work you do. Health or safety inspectors may come to examine your shop. You may be required to file compliance reports. None of that's true for a hobbyist's basement.
Now, there's a good reason for that - "hobbyist" implies small-scale work that doesn't require inspections or regulation, because it's not the sort of thing that poses a safety hazard to anyone except perhaps the hobbyist. But when you're dealing with someone who has what sounds like a full scale lab and lots of stored chemicals, you've moved out of the category of "hobbyist."
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
Sure, your neighbor *might* know what they are doing. They also might be doing things like
Remember, these were all trained professionals. I'm not really interested in watching my neighbor's house explode because he didn't understand how to store ether properly, or having my well poisoned because he was too cheap to hire a proper chemical disposal service. Since my neighbor is a complete amateur, I have *no* idea how capable he is in handling this stuff. I've got a freaking PhD in the subject but there's no way I'm going to do anything beyond a chemistry set in my basement- I'm rusty and there's way too much chance of massive fail.
Look at it this way- are you going to let your neighbor build high-power rockets in his basement and launch them from his backyard? (I'm not talking Estees, I'm talking the serious stuff) No? Why not? Because you hate his freedom or because they have a high chance of failure that could injure or kill a lot of people?
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
I would not want to live in a country where an inquisitive 12 year old is more intelligent than the distinguished leader. Down with science, burn the books.
Hope is the currency of fools
If he had leaking 55 gallon drums of radioactive sludge in is front yard, and the zoning people drove by and saw it - would they be powerless to do anything about that?
I don't know that they are necessarily saying that he can't have the items - maybe they are. There are zoning laws that state substances you can/cannot have - how they must be stored - how the environment must be safeguarded against them - what precautions must be need for fire prevention - and to alert any responders to the residences of the potential dangers in there. I don't think any of these were follows.
Ya' know that little emblum on trucks/buildings that says how "flammable/corrosive/poisonous" something is? Did he have those?
Gas stations, factories, labs and other places that have quantities of hazardous chemicals are required to have fire suppression, catch-basins, safe-storage, first-aid measures and other stuff. There are rules and zoning requirements involved.
The issue here is not necessarily whether or not he was allowed to posses those substances, but whither or not he was possessing them in a way which was safe and lawful - as defined by the zoning laws and fire codes.
The did not need a warrant because the stuff was "in plain sight" when the first-responders went into the home.
It is a good thing people weren't always running around with delusional paranoia
As early as 1821, there were restrictions on how much gunpowder you could have around in a city house. 5 lbs was a common limit, and still is. In New York State, above 5 pounds of black powder, the licensing, reporting, and safety rules apply; for example, storage within 75 feet of an inhabited building is not permitted.
Modern smokeless powder isn't a major explosion hazard, but black powder is.
I hope that these dangerous things end up somewhere that will handle them properly, like a government run Anthrax facility. Is it reasonable to assume that even if he was doing something iffy, that it would be wise to remove it from context when the person was obviously competent and willing to explain and work with them. By handling something without specific knowledge of the individual, many things can become hazardous by recombination and association in a way that the user never intended. Many household and farm chemicals can present a risk when improperly handled and by excluding the person who had immediate knowledge they create a greater hazard. Many of the chemicals we use here in farm country can be used in improper ways and if a farmer has a lot of anhydrous, it invariably means he is farming and not producing Meth. The isolation of the government from people leads to this problem. If they had known the guy and spoke to him as a person, would this situation have ever arisen.
I didn't RTFA in detail
Well, you probably should have. And I mean the actual newspaper article, not the sensationalistic blog post. Here's a quote from the article:
Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties.
"He's been very cooperative," Ms. Wilderman said. "I won't be citing him for anything right at this moment."
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
And on the fourth corner, there is a bar with a sign out front that says "No loitering by order of the Pope."
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
Quote, counterquote: "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby." Not a business. Note the emphasized word here: "Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments". That doesn't mean there was a zoning violation, it means there there may have been one (regardless of what Mrs Wilderman says... if there aren't specific regulations being broken there's no violation). Unless Mass. laws are excessively strict, if they suspect one they're supposed to investigate, give him a notice to that effect, give him time for remediation, and then if he doesn't cooperate they get a warrant to go in and act.
This has nothing to do with whether "zoning bylaws are useless" or not, and everything to do with procedures either being deeply broken or not being followed.
And it's got nothing to do with propane explosions, either:
None of the materials found at 81 Fremont St. posed a radiological or biological risk, according to the state Department of Environmental Protection. No mercury or poison was found. Some of the compounds are potentially explosive, but no more dangerous than typical household cleaning products.
Cool book.
What other books are banned from public libraries? There must be a list somewhere.
I found this:
http://title.forbiddenlibrary.com/
and this:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html
but, dammit, I've read most of them. Where are the really bad ones?
You can join me in Hell during:
Banned Books Week
Celebrating the Freedom to Read
September 27â"October 4, 2008
http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/bannedbooksweek/bannedbooksweek.cfm
Sue the ignorant bitch (Pamela Wilderman) her employers, the state, any judge issuing a warrant without cause etc.
Ugh. Firefighters don't need a warrant to enter your home, people:
"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home."
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
.
So, the firefighters come in to put out the fire, and notice vials of chemicals all over the place. The firefighters pretty much have to assume that they could be harmful, and would be compelled to investigate. It sounds like the good doctor was a little sloppy in how he stored his chemicals. They were definitely not confined to his basement lab.
So, these chemicals are in plain view during an investigation. The requirement of a warrant may not be applicable.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
And don't call it redundant... Stupid people need repetition!
So the firefighters were called, because it appeared a 2nd floor window AC unit was on fire. How did they end up in the basement?
I read Slashdot for the headlines, because the headlines, unlike the articles, are usually original and never duplicated
He did have numerous jars and boxes, most of which were just excessive samples sent by various chemical companies, and old non-volatile things he's mixed in home canning jars and left as they were impractical to clean. The jars were numerically labeled, and he had a corresponding sheet detailing what everything was. None of the chemicals were toxic, or explosive. He had all the Material Data Safety sheets on everything and was offering them to the authorities from the beginning. The authorities overreacted, and by the time they realized what the situation was, it was too late to stop it. UPS & FedEx (the primary shippers of the chemicals he received) will not ship toxic or explosive chemicals to a residential area. They authorities also took all of his notes on what he was working on, making it difficult or time consuming to continue.
40 years ago they thought thalidomide (sp?) and DDT were beneficial chemicals, safe to expose all kinds of people to. Asbestos, too. Now they're a little more cautious about making sure people aren't getting poisoned or blown up.
You may benefit by reading the article, which explains that the fire department was called, and when they discovered the 1500 jars of chemicals they determined it appeared to pose at least some risk in a residential home. Learning chemistry at home was not the crime, here. In fact, other than the enforced cleanup, it looks as if Deeb isn't going to be cited with anything.
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
I didn't hear the part about the authorities bashing in this guy's front door. Where did you get that?
In any case, they wouldn't need a warrant to demand access to the house, under penalty of fines or other punishments, to investigate zoning or other code violations. That's called an "Administrative Search". The law governing administrative searches is different.
The fourth amendment only requires that such searches be "reasonable", not that it be supported by a warrant. Such searches have never customarily required warrants. About forty years ago the SC clarified the requirements for such searches, which hare somewhat different from the probable cause required for warrants. Pretty much it amounts to being part of a regulation standard which is rational and balanced.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
This is an unreasonable search and seizure and is yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.
Last link (unless Google Books caves to the gov't and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)
From the Worcester Telegram & Gazette story:
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws.
Welcome to the People's Republic of Massachusetts. Go home, watch TV, marry something and continue voting for whichever Democrats promise to pay the most. Oh, and NO UNAUTHORIZED PAINTING, comrade.
I escaped the East coast 14 years ago. Enjoy your nanny state.
A few posters have noted that there was a fire in the household etc. Regardless, as a kid, I grew up in the "new age" of computers. A Commodore 64 in-hand, I played video games on it and did a bit of programming. I had a huge interest in science. But, like many other kids, were were generally more fortunate than our parents and our toys were more expensive and significantly less educational and a huge was of time: video games and cable TV. No less than straight-A's from grade school to high school.
My father had chemistry sets and Meccano toys when he grew up. I had access to Meccano parts and motors but I grew bored and tired of it. Instead video games and TV.
My father and I are on equal footing in terms of IQ. He's a doctor. I studied in science at university-level but I grew frustrated with Chemistry and Biology simply because it didn't come "naturally". Perhaps that's an excuse. Whatever. Not important to my argument. I think not having chem set was one reason. I don't regret what might have been - I didn't want to be a doctor after all. But, this society is probably turning away a lot of brilliant minds. Banning learning tools - books, chem sets, etc. is a bad, bad move. Maybe I could be an astrophysicist if I'd not had video games and cable TV. If not me, then some other would-be Nobel Prize winner.
So, I think before any governments go banning or raiding people's homes for chemistry sets - whatever the reason - they should consider the effects of this on society and the education system. For parents that *know nothing* about Chemistry, they are not going to buy little Johnny a chemistry set because all the negative attention its getting in the media makes them think he's going to take the house down. See Dihydrogen Monoxide hoax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax.
I definitely don't agree with what they did, but there seems to be a part of the story that is missing from those links that can be found here: http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/homepage/x1386717640/Some-Marlborough-basement-chemicals-identified
Evidently the chemicals were found during a response to a fire at the house.
Uggg... more knee jerk reaction to a pretty obvious case of prudent police work.
There's a fire in his house. The fire dept. and police come, and put out the fire. In the process of putting out the fire, they notice hundreds of vials of chemicals. Not in a rack, not on a shelf, not even on a table, but all over the place. On the floor, on furniture, everywhere. No reasonable chemist would be dumb enough to do that with any chemicals.
What would you want the police to do? Walk out without doing a little due diligence? There's a good chance he is storing these chemicals unsafely, and he is endangering his life and possibly others as a result. So they call in the experts to clean it up. And then they take a look at what he's done wrong, and probably will give him a fine and a slap on the wrist.
It's amazing how many Slashdotters don't even bother to do a bit of research before coming to their black-and-white conclusion about how The Man is bad and this poor fellow is being an upstanding citizen with his rights violated. How dare the police invade this man's home! It's an attack on science! They hate the science!
RTFA!
There are alot of Slashdotters that seem to take pride in their critical thinking, intelligence, and analysis skills. Honestly, alot of you really don't demonstrate it very often here. It's more like a lynch mob than a bunch of intelligent people discussing issues.
Things in Massachusetts are pretty messed up. I can say that in the last 17 years of "science experiments" I have never had any thought of interference from the authorities. My nearest neighbour is more than twenty miles away and I don't think anyone in Helena knows about my shack anyway but I am ready to defend it with all my improvised "science experiments" when they come.
First they came for the hobby chemists, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a hobby chemist.
Then they came for the electronics geeks, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a electronics geek.
Then they came for the crypto freaks, and I did not speak out -
because I was not a crypto freak.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to do things and stuff.
There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of." Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties.
It doesn't sound to me like the law acted because they didn't take chemistry 101. I suspect they acted because, far more than a child's chemistry set, there was a full-blown laboratory in this guy's house where "vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor." It doesn't sound like very safe or up-to-code setup.
They'll just hurt you bad, as in put in the hospital bad, and/or kill you today. I'm not a kid, I have watched it change for the worse over the years. The only thing some hog has to say is "he made a furtive gesture" and that's it, they can do whatever they want to you, gang beat you, taser you to death, pepper spray to the eyes then kick your skull in, shoot you, it doesn't matter, they can do it and get away with it now..and jeebus don't get caught getting a pic or vid, try to keep that hidden if you ever are trying to document some of their behavior, they'll kill you for that as well if they think they can get away with it. They shot some innocent kid in the head a few years back when they stopped a car, they were looking for a bank robber and the car very loosely matched the description but was in no way good enough to be the car they were seeking, his girlfriend was driving, one pig on one side of the car demanded his ID, as he reached for his wallet the other pig shot him in the head at point blank range, and that was the excuse they gave, that "furtive gesture" and "officer feared for his sorry ass safety" and absolutely nothing happened to the cop. There was just an incident last week where a small town mayor got raided because the pigs themselves, using an "undercover" pig, delivered a package with pot in it to his house. They then raided the house, blew away his harmless labrador retriever dogs, terrorized both the mayor and his wife for hours. It turned out to be some scam with dealers delivering pot-pot, just pot, not even so called "hard drugs"- to the wrong address on purpose where someone else would pick the stuff up. But this time the cops intercepted it and made the delivery themselves. And they knew what this scam was but raided the innocent house and people just for goddamn fun or something! So far, nothing has happened to them and the chief of oinkers there defends the actions as "justified". Similar happens daily all across the nation, there are thousands of these incidents. They need to be totally shunned from normal society, I am serious, no one rational should have a single thing to do with them socially from here on out until we get real community policing back and dump this ultraterror gestapo shit they have as "policy", it is perfectly apparent they have nothing in common with regular "civilians", you are just a target for them, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. Look around the planet, how do asshole dictators stay in power? The paramilitary who follow any order given, and they promote and exalt the most ultraviolent ones. The US is no different.
Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
I think what's infinitly worse than government intervention in private matters is articles that are terribly slanted.
It's Massachusetts. We don't like your science and technology very much over here.
You know, after ten years of living here, I still tell people I'm "originally from Maine" so as not to get lumped in...
09
is how many people don't know what their Constitutional rights actually are.
Not knowing the extents of your rights is asking for trouble.
OK, so maybe the administrative/criminal search dichotomy is a bit obscure. But you'd better believe that somebody who is in your home for a valid reason, even a private guest, sees your marijuana garden, then that can be probable cause for a criminal warrant. A lot of people here seem to think there's some kind of "no fair" rule that invalidates anything firefighters might notice during a call.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It's amazing how many Slashdotters don't even bother to do a bit of research before coming to their black-and-white conclusion about how The Man is bad and this poor fellow is being an upstanding citizen with his rights violated. How dare the police invade this man's home! It's an attack on science! They hate the science!
The burden of proof otherwise is on the man. Government has to prove itself innocent of trampling civil rights and the rights of the people because we have seen that government is not honest.
This is my sig.
Texas right now is polling for McCain by only 7 points, which isn't "very Red" (Bush beat Gore and Kerry by 61:38% and 59:38% respectively, about 20 points).
Senator John Cornyn is beating his underfunded Democratic challenger by only 10 points, while Cornyn's approval rating is under 50% (usually a signal that an incumbent is going to be defeated on Election Day).
The Texas delegation to the House of Representatives is only 19/32 (59%) Republican.
The Texas state legislature is only 4 switched seats (2.7%) from a Democratic majority.
All those districts have been carved out (gerrymandered) specifically for Republicans to gain the most seats - more so than in any other state. Those delegations come at the end of a period of Republican domination of the government (despite similarly thin margins nationwide) that prioritized overrepresenting Republicans everywhere, especially in big Southern places like Texas (the Bush HQ).
With all those advantages, the best the Republicans could do in Texas was a little better than the 50%+1 required for majority rule. Which majorities in every chamber have decreased steadily from initial large Republican gains. Trending back down towards the longtime Democratic majorities that controlled Texas until Bush Sr was the first Republican elected in the state, in the 1960s. Now that the Bush Dynasty is quickly waning, and Bush Sr himself near the end of his life at the center of a vastly powerful political network, Texas isn't looking nearly as Red as it once was.
By 2010, if not 2008, Texas will probably be as Blue as the rest of the USA.
--
make install -not war
And I told her to keep up the good work.
Do you propose I play with it in a balloon indoors? If I get arrested for doing something stupid, I'd feel a little better knowing my family won't get soaked in the next rainstorm because I blew the roof off the house.
The above is pretty funny, for certain values of "it"... I mean, you soaked your family? Blew the roof off the house?? Dude...
Bow-ties are cool.
It's Massachusetts. He's lucky they aren't falling completely back to their old ways and burn him at the stake.
Nothing new here. This is, after all, the same state that is jailing people for possessing something as simple as a pellet gun. They don't care about the 2nd amendment, why should they care about any of the other ones?
Perhaps we should let the authorities know how we feel, instead of relying on the people of that little town. Pamela A. Wilderman Code Enforcement Officer 508-460-3765 Joseph.Ferson@state.ma.us 617-654-6523
A sailboat near mine caught on fire in the marina way back when. When firefighters responded, it turned out the guy had been saving his own urine for several years. OK - who's the rookie wants to put that one out!
All you inconsiderate clods! Shooting your mouth off before you even know what kind of chemicals he had.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
No scientific research and development in a residential area.
Question for Slashdot: how many of you think you are creative enough, that you could have made up something this stupid if you tried?
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Any good fascist state function due to the hard work of strict compliance officers such as Pam Wilderman. Her work phone is (508) 408-4118. Give her a call and congratulate her on her good work.
http://yetanotherpoliticalrant.blogspot.com
I guess waiting for a warrant when there's a fire seemed a little un-neighbourly?
Fire crews entered the house to put out a fire, they noticed fire hazards which in turn appeared to be a zoning violation and reported it on (heck the police probably have to be there in case there's accusations of arson/ insurance fraud). The police, not knowing their organic chemistry too well, called in a chemical hazard team to establish the nature of the problem ..... and it goes on from there.
He could have been financially charged for commercial disposal of the hazardous substances I'd imagine, which would probably be very costly.
Do you fucking job people. How fucking long would it take you douchenozzles to take 10 minutes to read the article, do a little cross-checking and determine if the summary/story/headline is outrageously mischaracterizing the events that happened?
I understand that sensationalist headlines are probably being used, to some degree, to get clicks -- but there are enough interesting stories out there that you don't need to outright lie. Much more of this and I'm not even going to check my /. rss feed anymore.
"Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness." --Eric Blair
what's next , biodiesel homebrewers?
(By reading this comment you agree to NOT be employed by any goverment.) just to be safe ;)
"scientific research and development"? What qualifies as "scientific research and development"? Can kids build projects for their schools science fair at their homes or do they have to get a lab. What about science experiments that they have to do at home for homework? Would they let a little kid experiment to get a baking soda and vinegar volcano be more impressive? Yes. How about an adult with a knowledge of chemistry to try to do a similar thing, making a chemical reaction more powerful?
The real problem here is the laws. We see here a situation that we agree is a mistake, but the authorities were just doing what they were supposed to do. According to the officer, scientific research and development is banned from residential areas. This law is trying to stop problems that would involve the peace and protection of a neighborhood. Research refers to learning something by a logical process of experimentation. Development refers to using science to do something. Banning experimentation blocks a lot of things. Gardeners are a great example. Can someone place some new plants in different areas of their yard to see where it will live best? Experimenting with the amount of watering to see how a plant will live best? All of that is a no-no. If a gardener has a plant that is not doing well and the gardener finds out that the plant lacks a nutrient in the soil, can that gardener replenish those nutrients around that plant?
The law should really only restrict if what someone is doing bothers or endangers others. Thats really the goal of most laws, to protect the people while still giving them maximum freedom. A similar thing is computer hacking. If someone hacks a computer of their own for learning about how it works or if they forget their password, should we punish them if they didn't harm anyone. But on the other hand, we can't let malicious hacking occur either. We need to have laws that only restrict and prevent problems. This is an example of where a law is poorly made to slack off on the freedom end.
Sometimes I wish I hadn't bought a place in Marlborough in 2005. Shortly afterward, the city council tried to pass the harshest sex-offender law in the state and among the harshest in the country. This law, if enacted, would have barred Level II and III offenders from living, working, or even existing in 98% of the city. The mayor vetoed it, and then a nominally reduced version was passed over her veto a few months later. The 1,000 foot exclusion from any place children congregate (as opposed to 2,500 feet) still bars those on the registry from setting foot in 80% of the city's area for any purpose, including the city's large mall and the vast majority of other businesses. Laws like these imposed on people who often have either committed minor offenses (e.g. urinating on the side of the road) or have been punished rather severely already (e.g. 5 or 10 years in the state's maximum security prison for a rape) discourage people from re-entering society and can inspire more severe crime. If a "Level III" offender is really that much of a risk for finding the closest 7-year old kid and forcing his way on him/her, the proper place for that offender is a 6x10 cell for the rest of his life. Otherwise, once he's served his sentence, give him a chance to start his life over.
And now they go ahead with this kind of crap? I don't care how the stuff was found or how hazardous it was. If it were a genuine hazard, proper response by the FD would have been to give the guy 14 days to get the offending chemicals off of the property. Usually zoning infractions like are handled by a cease-and-desist order that can be challenged in court to determine if the facts of the case really constitute a zoning violation. Ten years ago, that kind of seizure without wouldn't have flown even if the contraband was pure cocaine, and the war on drugs has lasted a lot more than ten years.
I hope the mayor speaks out on the way this went down. When I found out about the sex offender thing just before last year's election, I decided she was worth voting for re-election. (I'm not on this list by the way, I'm just a fierce opponent of it since it's the prime example of the left wing being just as anxious to infringe the Constitution as the right wing in this country).
Go away, 'batin.
Don't worry if you're a kleptomaniac, you can always take something for it.
The US really shouldn't allow things like in-home laboratories... This is no longer the time for developments the likes of which this guy was involved in. Really, read the second paragraph. Does the US want that kind of person and those kinds of developments occurring in our country again? We need to focus on watching TV a bit better.
"In 1951, A.C. Gilbert introduced his U-238 Atomic Energy Lab, a radioactive learning set we can only assume was fun for the whole math club."
http://www.radaronline.com/features/2006/12/gilbert_u238_atomic_energy_lab.php
I am literally going to be boycott Slashdot if it keeps up with these stupid scare headlines. I feel like I am discussing politics with crazy rednecks or conspiracy theorists. "Science" is not under attack. This was simply a zoning issue. Western democracies have decided that it is ok to demarcate certain areas of a town for certain uses so people can't build a cement factory next to your home. Call me a fascist, but I wouldn't like my neighbor using his house as a chemistry lab where he could (potentially) have explosive or radioactive stuff. Furthermore, "The Government" is a stupid term because there is no connection between what state, federal, and local governments do. The country comptroller has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the Bush administration.
Probably the best teacher I ever had was a Chemistry professor at the University of Washington. "Wild" Bill Zollar. Fantastic storyteller. Anyway, he was telling us about his time as an undergrad at the University of Alaska. He was majoring in Chemistry to he could graduate in time to take a trip he'd won to Hawaii. Well, he ended up being responsible for reacting left over WWII sodium metal to get rid of it. As we all know sodium metal + water = exothermic and sometimes BOOM. (This is how we knew this would be a good story.) So he and his TA are up late doing this. And the TA says "Hey want to see something cool?" So they take a chunk of sodium metal and throw it in a fountain. BOOM! Splash. Yay! So the TA says, more or less, "Ok goodnight. Have fun doing this increadibly tedious job, unsupervised, by yourself, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure nothing will go awry." So here he is with untold kgs of sodium metal, reacting little slices of it with water. There's no one to go ride bikes with, and he's a smart young man with apparently poor impulse control. So he soaks some rags in oil, and wraps up a few bricks of sodium metal. Binds them up. Puts them in his car and proceeds to drive out to the nearest dam. So he stops the car over the water, tosses the parcel off and proceeds to drive away. Nothings happening, "Mission Accomplished." Before he gets across the water a 400 foot column of flame which must have lit up his car is busy burning down some guys outhouse on the bank behind him. Of course he went on to do other things, like thermite a trolly to it's tracks outside Harvard while he was at MIT, and then all kinds of important and extremely valuable work.
He's lucky they didn't hang him as a witch.
Pretty soon they'll pass a law that says, "Don't do anything unusual." If you look at all the bonehead things that people are getting arrested for nowadays, they seem to be enforcing such a law before its even been passed.
We all do chemistry on a daily basis, the difference is that we usually don't do it as our daily plan. Brush your teeth, take a bath and even breathing. Cooking is actually an advanced version of chemistry.
The area of chemistry is so wide that it's in no way possible to ban it all. And some people are stupid enough to think that it's dangerous to create huge soap bubbles or analyze the water yourself.
I'm doing chemistry right now, sitting here at my desk websurfing. I'm turning coffee into urine.
Is a terrible thing to waste.. or something like that.
Cant have our citizens learning about things that hasn't be cleansed by the ministry of education now can we?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
How do you explain this? (From TFA):
Authorities concede that the chemicals found in Deeb's basement lab were no more hazardous than typical household cleaning products.
Gun control: The belief that a woman, raped and strangled with her panties, is morally superior to a dead rapist.
Pamela A. Wilderman. Code Enforcement Officer.
508.460.3765
None of the materials found at 81 Fremont St. posed a radiological or biological risk, according to the state Department of Environmental Protection. No mercury or poison was found. Some of the compounds are potentially explosive, but no more dangerous than typical household cleaning products. (From the newspaper article)
Despite this admission from the authorities, they STILL stole his property. And you pro-government people are saying they had the right?
Morons.
Gun control: The belief that a woman, raped and strangled with her panties, is morally superior to a dead rapist.
If you're not using chemicals to make meth, you're not using them to make explosives, and you're not using them to make everybody have a permanent smile, you're doing something wrong.
You cannot increase freedom by reducing freedom.
Capitalism is simply what naturally happens when people are allowed to run their own lives. How can you logically draw a line and say that it's OK to have X amount of dollars, but immoral to have Y? Who died and made you Moses?
Damn right I want "freedom from public services, freedom from labor unions, freedom from environmental regulation, freedom from anything..." I want you and the government, the church, my neighbors, their dog, and pretty much the entire rest of the planet the hell out of my life.
As others have mentioned they originally found the stuff because of a fire at the home. I did a search for the guy's name and found another article that confirms this. This article has the more sensational title, "Marlborough fire leads to discovery of basement full of chemicals (must resist urge to call title inflammatory...)
I generally am suspicious of the authorities in such situations but at least here it seems as if there might have been some reason. It sounds almost as if this is similar to some guy having stacks and stacks of newspapers in his house. As in most cases there is more to the story than a short newspaper article tells us.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Thats pretty much what the article said, "I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation". So anyone who doesn't have a "normal" hobby is going to be raided by the Man?
I live in Massachusetts, so is the police going to come to my house and raid it and steal all my stuff because ham radio isn't considered a "customary home occupation"? How about servers, are they going to take all my servers and say running servers isn't considered a "customary home occupation"?
Well when the INHERENT freedoms of the founding fathers were being tread upon by the "Lawful Authorities" they started shooting them. I'm not suggesting it as a recourse only stating that it is a traditional and patriotic American solution.
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said ... "I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere." ... "There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
All of which she thinks. Absent a warrant, it is unlawful search & seizure. If they had observed the chemicals and then issued an investigation, finding he was actually in violation, that would be a hell of a lot better than this "he's doing something I don't approve of".
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Err... he did have a fire in his home.
A fair few household chemicals are either flammable or give off nasty fumes when burnt...
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
Without judging the man accused or the authorities (I don't have enough information), I would point out that many people could be inadvertently affected by this. I used to have a house with a pool, and the chemicals necessary to keep it sanitary can be quite dangerous if misused or improperly stored. Some of the pool chemicals include; Sodium Dichloro-isocyanurate, Sodium Bisulfate, Trichlro Isocyanruate, Muriatic Acid or Hydrochloric Acid, Lithium Hypochlorite, Aluminum Sulfate etc. Indeed, some of these chemicals can be used to make drugs, explosives, or other "bad" concoctions. So, does every pool owner need to watch for BATF agents performing a no-knock raid? The other thing is if you have a large pool, than you WILL have gallon jugs of these chemicals, so quantity alone cannot be a standard for liability.
There is no security when liberty is sacrificed.
Am I the only one who keeps reading it "Mr. Dweeb"??
Tell us about how M$ is to blame for all this.
You're right, but wouldn't you feel better if the person responsible was punished? Other than that, what stops her from doing it the next time?
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
I work in a lab with plenty of toxic chemicals, etc, and I can't say that I would appreciate that going on next door. As a neighbor I would at least want a heads up to GTF out of there if his place caught on fire.
Marlboro, a town 1660, a city 1890, a police state 2008. http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index
You guys there in the US have considered seriously what is happening with your civil rights? If I were you, I would be very, very afraid. And also very, very mad.
I really wish I had mod points right now..
I lived for years in Houston and don't remember any proselytizing. Sure, there were the mega-churches every few blocks, but I never went into them and they didn't come to me.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
No, it was me, you fools!
Is an Erlenmeyer Klein Bottle legal in Texas? http://www.kleinbottle.com/erlenklein.htm
Through family associations, I was able to go to a wonderland place as a kid, the chem lab at an oil refinery. I was given the most excellent glassware and stuff that they were replacing. Top line gum rubber hose, fittings - on and on. I had a a "lab" in my basement that was, as you might imagine, pretty amazing. I messed with lot's of things; gun powder and such, acids, bases, wow. You could buy sulphur, saltpetre, ribbons of copper, zinc, magnesium, brass tubing, glass tubing ... all the the Newberry's Dime Store! They had a huge selection of chemical wares in little glass bottles with blue and white labels.
This article really made me float back 45 years and once again I was standing, transfixed in front of the huge wall of little jars, imagining what I could make. I run networks now days but my experiences with chemicals and labs were some of the best times I had as a kid. I went electronics but ... what could I have made??
Anyone that would have shut me down is unthinkable and wrong. I endangered no one but myself, if at all. I was very careful. My parents applauded and supported my efforts - they supported everything creative that I did and they were the best.
So ask Ms. Wilderman what 6.02 x 10 to the 23rd is? If Pam can't answer, she shouldn't complain.
Here's the local article from Worcester...
See how bad things have gotten? In today's climate, they'd never have been ABLE to invent Worcester-shire Sauce.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
... about the frequent thunderstorms and cries of, "It's alive!" from his cellar.
Have gnu, will travel.
I've dealt with a lot of these Mass cops before - they are very, very frightening people. They are power hungry morons who bash the innocent and have very distorted views of reality.
They have their own message board.. take a look for yourself if you'd like to be very disturbed:
http://www.masscops.com/forums/
Be sure you check out the 'Ask a Cop' help forum where they just make fun of people seriously trying to get help
The problem with these bottle bombs is that it's difficult to predict when the pressure in the bottle will get high enouigh to burst it, and when it does burst, it sprays caustic chemicals everywhere. If you want to do something like this, stick to the Dry Ice and water variant. At least with those, the worst you're likely to get is a bad cut from flying plastic, rather than a full-body chemical burn.
Oh, and remember to wear eye protection. Always.
The next step is to outlaw experimenting with computers.
Europe laughs!!!!
IS exactly why I moved from that crappy state
Spot on. Reminds me of a great article in yesterday's NYT:
Drill baby drill - on Mars
And by "similar", I mean "warrantless search but they didn't steal my property, although they might as well have". I operated an orchid flasking lab out of my home for 10 years. One day, out of the blue, a plainclothes cop shows up, tells me he has information that I'm growing marijuana, and would I consent to a search of my property. I panicked and said "yes, if you get a uniformed officer to escort you" because anybody can show up and claim to be a cop. Uniform shows up, they go through my crawlspace, attic, every room in the house, the garden shed, and find nothing. They tromp through my (until that point, sterile) lab, which is filled with metal racks and growlights, and probably over $100k worth of other people's orchid seedlings. I show them my business brochures and explain what I'm doing. They leave. No apology, nothing. A few days later I started to notice contamination in my previously sterile flasks. Despite my best efforts, the contamination spread (spider mites) and I lost almost every single flask. All because the cops couldn't be bothered to wipe their feet. I ended up pissing off a lot of customers and losing my business because I let the cops intimidate me.
Stop talking to yourself fool!
With liquid fertilizer, pesticides, saltpeter, oils, powders and all of the other things on the farm, is the sheriff coming after me?
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
When you say gun, you should say hand-gun. Anybody, even without a license, can carry a rifle without a permit. Even into a bank!
-Unresolved symbol? Byte me!
How big were these 1500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes.
It could be he had a number of chemicals in boxes he had yet to unpack.
It could be that 1000 of those vials contained less than an ounce of chemical. To me a vial is usually a minute quantity of something, bigger than an ampule and msaller than a jar or bottle.
The second question you need to ask is was this scattered all over the floor, or was it neatly arranged on the floor underneath shelfs (aka furniture). What kind of furniture are we talking about? Tables perhaps? Shelving? Sofa? Chair?
This is a retired chemist. I think it is safe to assume he knows how to handle chemicals. After all, this is a chemist who has managed to survive for decades without blowing himself or Massachussets up. Maybe we should give him a bit more credit than the article. Maybe we should take the articles interviewees with a grain of salt (or heck a whole vial of salt).
However you roll this, it does not bode well for chemistry sets. Fortunately for me, a local science store is well aware of this and builds custom chemistry sets for those in the know. Along with the totally lame commercail ones we see in today's market.
Rabidity is cyclical.
The torture-murder of millions upon millions of women & Jews, in the name of "or lord, king of Jews",
then the Salem rendition of it,
then Nazism ( helped along by the appeasers )
then McCarthyism,
then "terrorism" being used as the excuse to terrorize god given worth...
It's all same old same old:
authority murdering living independence, hated diversity, feared autonomy.
The only way to reduce the root problem,
is to make basic "education" include something like Outward Bound,
so that MOST individuals gain, while young, *understanding* of others' autonomous worth.
Every alternative seems to bandaid the symptoms, without touching the cause.
A code-enforcement worker who closed down a high-tech startup in "hyper-blue" California because "it's not a customary home occupation" would get her worthless ass run out of government and hopefully, the hell out of the state.
... it's dumbass v everybody.
... WTF is it with MA? Is it the water?
No, it isn't Red v Blue
"People always get the kind of local government they deserve." Usually a grim comment on both a government and its citizens, but
Tech Public Policy stuff
and things like this are to be expected in my town. With the traffic cameras and police antics, it's quite similar to the UK.
This is the city that took 40 years to repave a major street because of contractor issues, and where Charter Communications has a government-supported monopoly on Television and Internet Service.
in Worchester? MOVE NOW.
That "not a customary home occupation" test can be applied to anything VCs are likely to fund. So get out now before the city shuts you down for not doing something that's within the rather limited comprehension range of their code enforcement officer. "You're programming computers? EVIL HACKER, I'm calling the police right now! You've crossed an invisible line!!!" Alternative energy? "Algae is dangerous! I have to clean it out of my pool every week. And you're growing the stuff? The Department of Homeland Security knows how to deal with your kind!" Otherwise, assuming you stay out of jail or Gitmo, you'll have to watch your competitors in saner jurisdictions pull ahead of you while you try to get your hardware and data files away from the city.
There are reasons why even left-wing Democrats joke about the "People's Republic of Massachusetts". If this kind of nanny-state crap becomes prevalent in MA, even MIT's chemistry classes are likely to turn into high-school style 'comment and take notes on the experiment you'll be watching on video' crap. Though more likely, they'll simply find a saner state to move to.
Tech Public Policy stuff
well, i'm glad you decided it was *way* too much stuff.. after all, it's liberty for just us not all, right?
I agree with GP, the zoning laws are not meant to be abused in this way, and there are way too many broad laws on the books, often covering victimless crimes, put in place by special interests, many of which are long extinct!
There needs to be a national constitutional amendment dictating a 5 year sunset on every single law, NOT renewable by simply passing a "renewal" bill. You have to rewrite the entire law on the same piece of paper, with no riders, and pass it again.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
should delete themselves off slashdot, as should you. If you're anti-science, you have no place here. Most of those chemicals are probably more dangerous than table salt, and the user is a qualified professional chemist.
The code enforcement officer's irrational fear does not justify yours. Or your spewing it all over slashdot.
It's dumbasses like you who are the reason why the US is slipping behind the rest of the industrial world in science education. Your kind of nanny-state horseshit is why high school students watch chemistry experiments on video instead of doing real lab work and why parents who want their kids to learn real hands on science instead of computer simulations can't get decent home chemistry sets anymore.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Then they pass a few bills on the down low as "campaign contributions" and keep on violating the laws, or, if the public ire is up, get slapped on the wrist while the laws are quietly changed for them.
The truth is corporations have more rights than the average "insect".. i mean citizen.. because we live in the neo-fascist states of america, otherwise known by Shirow & co. as "the american empire".
to qoute a hackneyed crappy film: "welcome....to the real world"
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Ammunition gives off high velocity lead when it burns. Are you suggesting the government not allow us to keep ammo?
I got a 790 on the chemistry section of my college board exam in '65. (Felt like I'd let my college chem teacher down by not getting 800. He really liked the students to get perfect scores on the quizzes and exams, and would buy 'em an ice cream cone or a sundae respectively when they did it.)
But come '66 in college the drug war was just getting started. The government was nosing into purchase records for a lot of reagents and lab glassware and equipment. And the college chemistry store reacted by restricting private purchases of anything the government required reporting on - which put a big crimp in doing any serious experimentation outside a sponsored research project.
I saw that this would only get worse for the foreseeable future - which meant work for a company and they get all the benefits. So I switched back to my first love - electronics - and from there went into computer science and programming.
(Helped to have access to Galler, Riddle (as in "Djikstra and ..."), Blue, and "Doctor Dave" Mills, along with Leith and Upatnieks, Fredricks, both Larrowe brothers, etc.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
As a chemist, you aren't exactly convincing. As for "what someone can easily do with household products", your experience is probably limited to exotic enemas and unless your experiments run to things like jalapeno sauce up your ass, nobody is going to want to read about them.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Theirs not much hope when societies carters to the ignorant or the paranoid. People burned witches, made people falsify confessions, and other crimes through out time due to ignorance/paranoia. I had hoped that we had all learned from the past but perhaps this is too much to ask for. With to dayâ(TM)s technology, one should not have to put up with this behavior or work hard to get this resolved. I can only hope this is an isolated incident.
and your job be on the Vista development team?
Tech Public Policy stuff
Mr. Deeb's home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties.
"He's been very cooperative," Ms. Wilderman said. "I won't be citing him for anything right at this moment."
Translation: If this guy tries to fight us on the illegal seizure of his goods, we will make his life hell with court dates and trumped-up charges.
""This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ... There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
-----What's next? Raiding people who take part in a hobby?
Good idea! Next on thie "To Raid" list:
1) Home gardeners: because they deal with toxic chemicals. Since the are adept at growing things, they *potentially* apply that knowledge to cultivating marijuana or opium poppies.
2) Model rocketeers: because they deal with flammable materials. Since they are knowledgible in rocketry, they could *potentially* build a missile.
3) Hunters: because they have guns and know how to use them. 'Nuff said. Plus, they know how to kill things.
4) Sport fishermen: because they have boats that could *potentially* be used to smuggle drugs or weapons into the country. They also know how to kill things.
5) Computer enthusiasts: because they are knowledgable in computers, and could *potentially* hack into the pentagon and steal national secrets.
6) Auto mechanics: because their knowledge in automobiles means they they could *potentially* build car bombs.
7) Hot dog vendors: because their integration with the public means they could *potentially* introduce weaponized pathogens into large populations unnoticed.
8) Amateur pilots: because they can *potentially* fly suicide missions into buildings (remember 9/11?!).
9) Woodworkers: because they can craft sharp objects out of wood that could *potentially* be snuck undetected through an airport x-ray machine.
10) Musicians: because Rock N' Roll is the Devil's music.
11) ANYBODY WHO IS IN POSSESION OF A CAN OF RAID, ROUNDUP, OR LYSOL: because the only excuse for having it is killing things.
Instead of going after drug dealers, murderers, and incompetent state employees, Massachusetts decides Julius Kelp is more dangerous. Way to go.
Maybe they should change their state name from Massachusetts to simply "Ass Hats".
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
Prove that the city government actually prohibits "scientific research" in residential neighborhoods with the relevant code citation.
Is someone checking a barometer for a science fair project on weather banned? Is someone doing computer security research banned? Which zoning laws are you discussing and how do they define "scientific research"?
You don't know, do you?
All you've done is take the word of a government employee repeated by the legacy media and assume that she knows what she's talking about, despite the fact that the article makes it apparent that she doesn't.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Unless you live outside the USA or are an anti-science crazy, there really isn't anything funny about the post. The support for the nanny-state position I see here reminds me of why I don't hang out here as much as I used to.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Tech Public Policy stuff
This drives me crazy. My hobby is microscopy, and it is nearly impossible to get the supplies I need - and I am a pharmacist. After pondering this dilemma, I started carrying a number of chemicals, and repackaging them in smaller portions for the group of people who share my interest, and I charge cost for them. Every time a health inspector or Board of Pharmacy inspector comes in I have to explain and justify why I carry these "exotic items". I used to get Nitric acid from the local pharmacy when I was a kid just by saying it was for my chemistry set. Things have sure changed.
Well, Worcester isn't all that far from Danvers... (note that the infamous Witch Trials were held in Salem Village, which is now known as Danvers, and not in the city of Salem, tourism titles aside)
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
I wonder how long before people in possession of scary "hacking software and equipment" are subjected to similar intrusions?
I wonder how long I'll be able to own a metal working lathe. I can see a day coming when such a powerful tool will be illegal for private citizens.
In case you'd like to let the dumbass know how you feel..... Here's a Link To the Govt. Office there - http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index
About ten years ago, I had a code enforcement person come to my door about something in my backyard not visible from the street. He asked to come out back to inspect, I asked him if he had a warrant. He said no.
"Then get the fudge off my property."
He threatened to come back with police and a warrant. I told him to feel free, but if he stepped one foot on my property again without a warrant, I would subdue him myself, call the police, and have him arrested for trespassing.
Never saw that idiot again. Of course, that was Arizona, not Taxachusetts.
It's Massachusetts! Anything that falls slightly outside the realm of "normal" as judged by a paranoid cop must be raided and destroyed. Just be happy they didn't decide to call in the bomb squad and detonate the house.
Wow this whole thing is pure spin. Read original article. The Fire Department responds to a fire on the premises. Unrelated to the fire they find (quoting from the newspaper article linked): Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor, authorities said. The ensuing investigation involved a state hazardous materials team, fire and police officials, health officials, environmental officials and code enforcement officials. The Deebs were told to stay in a hotel while the slew of officials investigated and emptied the basement. So while reaction from the official quoted is troubling--it sounds like initial response was spot on and it would have been irresponsible of the Fire Department not to check it out.
They believed the situation to be potentially unsafe, and based on what I see I agree with them.
The point is, it was done unlawfully. Look, I voted for Bush twice and number myself among the dozen people left in the USA that would vote for him again. So, its not like I'm some kind of a flower carrying, unicorn riding love and passion guy.
But...
This is a clear case of the end justifying the means. We can't have a country where the government is allowed to go and trample someone by merely waving a safety flag. The government has to make its case before the people and in a consistent fashion. Taking the case before the people, via a trial, is the essence of democracy and, and consistency is the hallmark of the rule of law. In this case, our government capriciously applied a zoning statute, violating consistency and civil discourse and did so to trample someone's rights.
You can't have cops just busting into your house because they argue some provision of safety. It's pretty simple. It's like, I thought conservatives were against excessive power applied by the government. Look at it this way... this is another spin on that god-aweful eminent domain decision. William F Buckley, Ronald Reagan, Henry Hyde, are all rolling over in their graves, right along with Ben Franklin, saying:
"He who trades liberty for safety deserves neither!"
This is my sig.
If the law requires that the location be inspected and certified, demand that they do so. If they refuse to inspect, document everything. If they inspect but refuse to certify, demand that they document what the failures are, etc.
Give the local board/council/whatever an opportunity to rectify the situation by showing up with all of your materials. Point out that the law makes coffeemakers, household solvents, etc. require inspections, and suggest that they'd better be budgeting to hire additional inspectors to handle every home in the town starting, oh, next week.
If they refuse to do anything about the situation, get your friends and neighbors into the act.
fencepost
just a little off
This is a response to your side-swipe at universal health care.
The US spends more per-capita on health care than many nations with universal health care, while only covering about 75% of the population. We do this via "insurance," which is far more expensive than the cost of the health care itself. It's also why the majority of people in the US have very little control over their health care, and are stuck with HMOs, thin lists of acceptable procedures, and are dropped from coverage if they suffer a life-threatening illness that keeps them from working to afford the health care.
The US health care system fucking sucks.
It also should be noted that an explosion took place here in Danvers in Nov. 2006 that was in a small ink and paint factory bordering neighborhood houses. The explosion happened so early in the morning that shards of glass etc. passed over people sleeping instead of into people standing getting ready for the day. The cause of the explosion was due to improper storage of VOC's. One can read the findings of the investigation at: http://www.mass.gov/dep/danfindg.htm As such, local police / firefighters are being more "vigilant" for violations / improper permitting.
From above findings:
In order to prevent future incidents like the Danvers explosion, smaller companies that produce or use hazardous materials will now be targeted for scrutiny under a new program that pairs fire and hazardous waste inspectors on the lookout for mishandling of dangerous chemicals.
Long story short, I can see the side of the authorities here. More importantly it looks like from the article that no citations / fines or more importantly criminal charged have currently been leveled... Time will tell if there continues to be a "measured" response.
Thanks. I hadn't realized long guns were handled differently. Still, handgun carry needs to be liberalized as well.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
No matter how often corrupt judges and lawyers argue to the contrary, you cannot harass a person or confiscate his property because someone feels it is "likely" he violated some law, but can't prove it. This is a complete reversal of the doctrine of "innocent until proven guilty." To support such nonsense is rather to support a doctrine of "you're guilty, period." It turns innocent people into bandits and the law into a tool of oppression and abuse, which is, by the way, completely contrary to the purposes of just law in the first place.
Besides, regulations aren't even real laws, they're bureaucratic edicts. To the extent that regulations come out of Federal agencies, they are unconstitutional since power is given only to the legislature. I'm sure they're unconstitutional by most state constitutions as well. For the legislature to allow or encourage such things is an unforgivable abandonment of their basic duties. If you're big on democracy but also in favor of bureaucratic regulations, you have some cognitive dissonance going on.
For those of you who don't know, they are removing the chemicals from his basement because there was a fire in his house. They have ruled out foul play. I live in Marlborough, have for 26 years. And by the way, our local government is that of a city, with an elected mayor and elected council, not a town. They are removing the chemicals from his basement, and he is cooperating fully, to make sure that there is no risk or dangerous chemicals. Fremont St is on a hill above downtown Marlborough. They are not pressing any charges, even though he has violated State regulations and local zoning laws. THIS WAS NOT A RAID.
Burn the witch!!
Its not that hard: http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Res/familyhsng/MarlboroughMA_CityClerks/MarlboroughMA_ZoningOrds/article5. The practice of storing chemicals and conducting scientific research does not appear to be covered by the city's zoning laws. The only zoning violation he *might* be guilty of is using more than 25% of his home's floorspace for business purposes. That hardly justifies confiscating and destroying everything. There may be other laws about the handling and storage of chemicals in the state, but those are not mentioned in the article. I think the city is wrong, they could have simply asked the guy what the chemicals are and what he has been doing with them. As for spelling the city's name, my recollection is that both forms are used in Massachussettes, the long form on maps, city documents, and so on, the short form on highway signs and many news articles.
testing
...grounds for a lawsuit against the Marlboro police to me.
"Is someone checking a barometer for a science fair project on weather banned? Is someone doing computer security research banned?"
the answer would appear to be yes in both cases based on your cite. I hope you live in MA, you seem to be comfortable with that kind of nanny-state protection... you also now know that high-tech isn't leaving your state because they don't like you, it's because of overregulation. There's a reason why garage startups are far more likely to happen outside your state.
Tech Public Policy stuff
a reply to one of my posts here indicates the speculation is correct. If you've got a good idea and want to work on it at home... you'll have to get it approved by the local authorities or risk shutdown.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Ah. BTW the guy is an ex-chemist not some random 15 year old kid with dads CC. Also there are 1500 ITEMS cited, not 1500 different chemicals in the article.
In any basic hobby you will easily find that in 2m radius of you in our "lab" you will easily list 500+ items related to your hobby. Just look at that pile of cables stashed away in the corner. 200 separate items at least! 1500 is NOT THAT excessive in chemistry where you are talking about having 30+ items just for a basic distilling process.
Your ideas intrigue me. I'd like to invest in your company...
Huh?
I'd feel safer with a 15 year old with daddy's CC playing hobbist chemist in their basement than I would be with a 60 (yes, that's an age out of my hiney) year old retired chemist playing reseach chemist in his. The number of items may or may not be relevant to the idea that he was doing something 'wrong'. But they were enough for me to feel that the firemen who reported the incident weren't abusing their authority when they called in the DOE. And the fact that this is someone who willingly admitted to the folk who showed up that he was in fact doing research and development pretty much blows away the "it's just a hobby" arguement.
The issue isn't "chemisty bad, don't play with beakers" the issue is "don't set up an industrial scale lab in a residential area".
If you'd read TFA, you wouldn't have needed to be told this. Your claimed MSc degree hasn't saved you from making a public fool of yourself.
Tech Public Policy stuff
I've read your journal entry and I'm quite the same kind of nerd at scholl...
When I was 16 I discovered how to make hydrogen from caustic soda, water and aluminium foil (I've never seen this in chemistry books).
I've made a mini hydrogen production unit with plastic bottles (PET) , plastic tubes and pots. I used it to inflate baloons with hydrogen which fly away (they can lift up a Lego man). The danger here is: hot caustic soda, hydrogen and a reaction that accelerate (need proper cooling).
Later when I was 18 I brought the device at the boarding school to inflate a baloon. A condom was used, it work as well, that was a nice idea because it was the world AIDS day...
I got no trouble, because I was in a educated and liberal environment.
Maybe dangerous but not as much as the student filling used bullet cases with gunpowder to make new bullets for a friend (at the boarding school too, for a few days).