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Ford's 65MPG Due In November, But Not In the US
computermesh writes "Ford has a vehicle that gets 65MPG and will not be released in the US. Why? Because they can not afford to! 'Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.'"
Biodiesel is about the only fuel which really can be produced from crops/tanks of sludge.
The USA should be encouraging diesel engines for all it's worth, not making things difficult.
No sig today...
They're correct in that there are business reasons.
For example, they don't want the bottom to fall out of the market of their other cars, because they know that this would be their top #1 seller, and most of their other cars would become a lot less popular.
Also, there's probably some kind of collusion going on. We could make a 45mpg car that has decent numbers back in the 80's, but we can't make anything comparable now? Bullshit. There's something behind the scenes.
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
..going to be owned by the Chinese within 20 years. No one doubts how revolutionary both companies efforts are in creating viable electric and hybrid cars, in the mean time they are being laughed at by anyone who has gone car shopping in the last few months with all the sales. Even with some models being 5-10k cheaper from the American manufacturers 90% of the time you can get a Japanese model that gets 20% better gas mileage, higher resale value and better crash rating. Who still buys American vehicles these days, my grandparents got a Toyota last year and my sister has a 10 year old Chevy pickup. Everyone else I know owns German or Japanese vehicles.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
"The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel."
Down here in the south about half of the F-250's are diesel powered. The only difference is they only get 18 mpg.
No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Well, that's a big, big reason. Why would I buy a diesel car that has better mpg if diesel fuel now costs a dollar and a half more than gasoline (more in the winter, when they start refining more heating oil)?
I doubt that many people in Europe will be astonished by a diesel that will do 65MPG. Even if those gallons are US gallons (approx 5/6 of an Imperial gallon), it's still not much greater than small diesel cars have achieved for a long time.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
if the ECOnetic doesn't meet DOT safety guidelines.
Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors will be OUT of business by November 2009. China made a call to The White Bunker and told President-VICE Cheney to get his fat ass out of Iraq by Jan. 2009 OR they would sell ALL U.S. treasury bonds held by China.
Put that in your in crack pipe Sarah Palin and INHALE.
Bitch.
In other news, the auto industry is asking for loans, which some classify as a bail out. This is mostly because no one is buying SUVs and other low-mpg vehicles.
The irony is delicious.
It gets about 2x the fuel economy of a relatively efficient gasoline vehicle and diesel only costs about $1 more per gallon (which is about 4/3 as much as regular)... idunno how many people here are capable of such reasoning though. Also, 65 is a lot more than 46 gotten with the (2009 model of the) Prius, which may make the extra 2,000 worthwhile...
Yep the MINI Cooper Diesel is rated at 72mpg and from the forum posts I've read gets between 56 and 60 mpg. Keep in mind that this Ford will get less than the factory rated 65mpg. Yes, astonishing for the US but not so for Europe. Europeans have far more options on the fuel efficient spectrum that Americans do.
They are not willing to take any chances, even when their backs are up against the wall. They were completely dependent on gas guzzling behemoths like the F150 and their various SUV's. Yet when the opportunity comes up to do something unique and become a market leader, they are too risk averse to do it.
They could import these cars, selling them in relatively small quantities for a small profit, and then later do things to bring the costs down. Move the engine manufacturing to the US/Mexico. Use that famous lobbying ability that kept SUV's viable to reduce diesel taxes.
The Japanese companies didn't become as successful as they are overnight. Ford will not be able to compete with them until they take a long-term approach. Instead of burning through cash trying to maintain their current business model, how about investing that in new facilities that will create the next generation of cars. Focusing only on quarterly reports is what got them into this mess in the first place.
The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Some people may remember that in the 70s and 80s, the big three were making several diesel-powered sedans for the American market. Some of these vehicles are still operating, because the diesel engines have very good longevity.
However, it is the negative publicity that those old diesels attained that keeps diesel relegated so low in the US. Those cars in the 70s and 80s made terrible mileage (they were most if not all 8cyl diesels). They spewed noxious exhaust enough to make coal power plants look clean. And they accelerated like Mack trucks propelled by hamsters.
Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of the progress that diesel engines have made in the past 30 years. And it would seem some of those uninformed people are working for the big 3 automakers.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
the UAW has been running the big 5 auto makers in to the ground by feigning to fight for better wages and benefits for workers years only to line their own pockets at the same time the NTSC and DOT regulating the hell out of the auto makers too thus upping the cost of manufacturing and sticker price of automobiles it is no wonder a new car or pickup costs almost as buying a house and to do what with it?, wear it out and sell it for pennies on the dollar in 10 years only to do it all over again so not many people can get ahead with expensive auto payments and full coverage insurance, i learned my lesson once in the 1980s and i will NEVER buy a new automobile ever again...
i remember seeing the title of my dad's 1966 chevy impala and it was only 2 grand when it was brand spanking new, look what a new car costs nowadays even with inflation it still should be less than 8 or 10 for a new car, but NoOo a new car is somewhere in the 20 to 30 grand range (ridiculous)! even with financing & reasonable interest rates it is just gawd awful expensive...
not a troll, just a rant with insight (IMO)
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
I realise its probably a different size car( i didnt RTFA) but the toyota yaris diesel does over 100 mpg, in 1 1.4l engine. Its not a bad size for a small car either :
http://www.toyota-europe.com/cars/new_cars/yaris/fullspecs.aspx
Volkswagen has been making a diesel Golf that gets 60+ miles per gallon for several years now. The only "news" here is that the European division of Ford isn't as incompetent as their American division.
That's ok, but pretty much the norm these days for a small diesel car. The Ibiza Ecomotive does 74 mpg.
No way, it's a Fiesta! I bet most Americans have never heard of these cars, but they're all over British roads.
If you want to impress your British mates, their nickname is: 'Fester' or if you know the people well: 'Uncle Fester, Child Molester'.
Yes, the British do have sick minds.
... One reason they can't sell them in the US is because they put the steering wheel on the wrong side - Idiots.
* It's an F'n joke.
Prof. Farnsworth - "Oh a lesson in not changing history from Mr I'm-My-Own-Grandpa!"
If you can't be bothered to RTFA, please read this.
Ford makes the engines in Britain. The British pound is high compared to the dollar, so the cars would cost more than a Prius; their best case is that a diesel tax credit might make the car cost only slightly more than a Prius. Their market research indicates that Americans prefer a hybrid gasoline car (such as a Prius) to a diesel, so they don't think the car would sell at the price they would have to charge. It doesn't help that diesel is taxed more than gasoline and thus costs $0.40 to $1.00 more per gallon. Ford could reduce the cost if they start building the diesel engines in Mexico, but they will lose money unless they can sell at least 350,000 diesel engines per year; given their bleak financials they are reluctant to take that risk right now.
Note that VW is selling Jettas with diesel engines, and several other auto makers are introducing diesel models. If American consumers go for these new diesels, Ford may reconsider their decision.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
And where do you intend to get the energy to split the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen?
Diesel fuel in the USA is not as clean as in Europe, and the super-high efficiency diesel engines need the cleaner fuel.
And this is a reason not to sell it here? Lots of cars run diesel. Most eery large truck does. Its available everywhere.
What are they thinking?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Fiesta would cause people with a memory of the 80's to run in the other direction.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The article states that the engines are made in Britain and would be costly to import. Making the engines in the Americas may not have a good enough ROI since they'd need to make a new factory when they currently don't have the resources to do it right now (losing billions during the fiscal year probably doesn't help).
The Japanese never had that problem and they have the added cost of tariffs because they compete "unfairly".
Cost accounting is an art at best. Just because they have numbers to "prove" something doesn't mean they're correct. I can make the most profitable product in the World unprofitable with some legal and creative accounting. Remember, accounting calculations are NOT tied to any physical laws - something my classmates with engineering degrees in B-school didn't quite grok.
I well imaging that a Fiesta could be run over by a Hummer or a F250 and it be mistaken for a speed hump.
... until GM does it first.
This has been the pattern for decades: Ford invents, then sits on it. Then another company - usually GM but sometimes Chrysler, Toyota, etc. - comes out with the same thing and Ford plays catch-up.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Nobody converts corn oil to biodiesel, though - it's usually soybean oil in the US, and rapeseed oil in other countries. And, I never said anything about biodiesel in my own post. I was talking about diesels in general as opposed to gasoline.
And, it always takes more power to split hydrogen off of water than you get from burning the hydrogen. Always, always, always. If you're doing it this way, you're making Rube Goldberg's electric car, because all of the energy the car is getting is from the battery. (Or, if you're using HHO as a supplement to gasoline or diesel, you're instead making Rube Goldberg's water injection kit (and water injection actually is proven to work, but it hasn't been intentionally used for efficiency improvements, only max power improvements,) most likely, because that's what's happening - the free hydrogen is bonding back with the hydroxide group, resulting in water again.)
I'm going to guess that you're specifically trolling me, though... let me guess, you're from #tdiclubchat. ;) (Although you would've made a comment about Miatas if you were...)
I'd buy an efficient Diesel in preference to a gas guzzler, and not to do the biodiesel thing, which is a niche since we aren't likely to wolf down enough french fries and fried catfish to make the market for used oil big enough to supply the convertors. And growing food for fuel is still stupid, even if it is diesel. Growing food for fuel is stupid. Eating is non-negotiable. There are plenty of ways to fuel transportation without taking precious farmland and growing stuff to burn.
Diesel is good enough to win at Le Mans. Oughta be a way to make it work on the 101 through Scottsdale, since it works on the Autobahn.
Of course, Mercedes-Benz thinks hybrids should be diesel-electric. Where have we heard that before? Oh yeah, locomotives. A business sensitive to costs, performance, and reliability.
Until we can go all-electric, we'll need a better battery. Right now, the favorite battery is a gasoline tank. Soon, it might be a diesel tank.
Sad. Maybe instead of trying to make an electric CRX, I oughta make a diesel...?
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo
Why? Because of the counter productive EPA and crash test regulations. Every year they get tighter and tighter just to justify their budgets. (Look! We are doing something!). The automakers have to sacrifice fuel consumption(more oil used, more crap in the air) and power just to hit these EPA emissions. That is why there is no 60MPG Fiesta anymore. It would never pass smog.
For ford to bring that car here it would cost them more to make to US spec and it would end up getting less MPG. Just look at the new VW's. Wow 50MPG. In the EU they get at least 10 more MPG and do not need some super fancy,costly catalytic converter. They have had 50MPG+ diesels there for years.
I have to return some videotapes...
The Jetta TDI uses a NOx storage system and its particulates are way, way down. My guess here is that since a European consortium came up with the techniques used in the TDI, which is an offshoot fo the BlueTec program, there are patents in the way.
The Ford car may have a diesel but I'll betcha that it can't meet the restrictive diesel emissions ratings here in the US. Personally, I would love to see all diesels have to be just as clean as the Jetta TDI engine is and that includes all soot belching commercial truck diesels.
And, my next car is going to be a Jetta TDI Sportwagen with the DSG transmission. Going up a 6% grade with three full-sized adults, a 20 MPH headwind, and at 65 MPH and getting 40 MPG sold me. Plus, I believe that the engine is certified to run on ASTM certified Biodiesel. Fahrvernugen!
Get the fuck out, useless telemarketer. In THIS forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
It's been a long time.
No more diesel pickup truck in the USA made by ford, and they had a nice low mpg of 19.
They should just offer the things in the United States, price them at whatever level they need to make a profit, and find out whether there's a market for it.
How much downside can there be? There must be as big a market for this as there is for a Limited Edition Shelby GT500KR.
There are lot more places to buy diesel than E85, but that doesn't stop them from selling flex-fuel vehicles.
Why not test the market? If there's any sign of interest how hard can it be to build the engines in the United States? Maybe in one of the fourteen plants they closed?
I can't believe it wouldn't be a huge publicity boost to Ford to say "we have a car that's more fuel-efficient than a Toyota Prius," even if it does use diesel. And it might help them get those CAFE numbers up without a handout from the government.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
So don't use corn. Or use the oil for cooking, then transesterise it. That's generally what biodiesel is made from: yellow grease. Besides, if corn is more valuable as a fuel than food, it WILL be used as fuel. There's no point in wringing your hands over it. It's the way markets work. Nobody is going to forgo the profit without laws making them. Even then, you're going to see a lot of smuggling going on as fuel prices, and thus vegetable oil and ethanol prices, skyrocket. At best such a law will make them switch to another crop that has a better oil yield, at worst you'll force the market underground.
$25,700 for the subcompact Ford! I can get two Toyotas for that price...
65 miles per imperial gallon == 54 miles per US gallon. Do we have any idea what units the article is talking about?
Firstly american gallons are smaller, about 3.8l instead of 4.5l so it wouldn't get 65mpg here.
Secondly diesel powered cars are uncommon, , diesel is only used in trucks. The fuel costs more than gasoline.
And Americans don't know how to drive manual transmissions.
Fonnally americans like to have bogger cars, they are scared of being in something small in the case of an accident.
There, fixed it.
If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
There is ONE reason that car is not being brought over here. It has nothing to do with diesel. It has nothing to do with safety.
Simply put: NO one makes a profit on a Fiesta sized car in the US. Not the Americans, not the Japanese - NO one. It is simply too expensive to build the cars. Ford is working on building the car here just as quickly as they can - they're tooling up the engine plant in Brazil as we speak and the body and assembly plant as well. Unfortunately there's only so fast they can move. If they were to important the car that would be another 2-3k right out of their pockets. Trust me - they can't afford that right now.
Ford lost their Corporate Vision for a long, long time. Finally, with they're backs to the wall, they've gotten it back. Their quality is now on par with Toyota (though it will take a long time to repair their reputation). Their technology is jumping ahead - in the next 2 years they will LEAD in fuel economy in every segment except the hybrid. Unfortunately for them, they took a long long time to wake up. I just hope they can turn it around in time. I don't think the vast majority of Americans understand exactly what the Big 3 do for us in this country. Most who have ever walked through a newer big 3 plant would be flabberghasted by the technology and by the expertise of the workers. Most people don't do that though.
Most simply want to throw darts at one of the two most important industries in the country.
Because like the pharmaceutical companies, the US is the private ATM of the oil companies.
And, because our EPA and congress has never required more mileage by boosting the mileage requirements.
Cars were getting 50mpg more than 30 years ago, but the "technology is just not there" to do the same in 2008. I had a '77 Honda station wagon that consistently got 40mpg. How I loved that little car. It was even British racing green. My whole band (a trio) could fit, with our gear, in that car.
The eight-track player kinda sucked, though. I remember listening to Roxy Music's For Your Pleasure and it would change tracks right in the middle of my favorite tune.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You know, it sounded like you may have had a point, but I really don't feel like picking it out of all that rage. Start taking decaf and then come back and try to make whatever point it was you were trying to.
"Hydrogen-Hydrogen-Oxygen, plenty of it before and after, and the pre-arrainged setup to create it is under US $75, so what the FUCK keeps you from trying it?"
"Conservation of energy, motherfucker, do you speak it?"
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
(caveat - I own Ford shares which I bought at the bottom)
It's not that it uses diesel, it's that US consumers pay too much for diesel, and have yet to realize that you get more distance on a gallon of diesel than you do on a gallon of gasoline.
The major markets that care about fuel economy, to date, have been the ones with tighter pollution controls, and hence diesel is at a disadvantage, due to emission restrictions on all but "experimental" cars.
But, if you read the WSJ and Fortune, you'd realize it will be released in the US once the US dollar recovers enough - no sense selling a high-demand vehicle in the US when you can make more profit selling it in the EU instead, where tax policy advantages diesel over gasoline.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
1. You should either use a capital L, or place a space after the number to minimize confusion.
2a.No, they are not that uncommon.
2b.Diesel is not only used in trucks, take older VW Rabbits for example.
3. No, actually, many of us do.
4. Some people are, because they don't understand physics, or the race to the bottom.
Were that I say, pancakes?
Translation: If we don't keep America hooked on expensive impulse-bought gas-guzzling behemoths bought on credit by a busy soccer mom who fantasizes that a bigger vehicle will keep her precious snowflakes safe, who will?
(Disclaimer: I am American.)
In Europe, we like our scales inverted: 65 mpg is 4.3 litres per 100 km. That's worse than a 1998 VW Lupo 3l, or a 1994 Smart ForTwo, both of which are only slightly smaller than the new Fiesta, and make it to about 85 mpg. Using Diesel engines (which, as it happens, was actually cheaper in continental Europe than standard unleaded, for a long time).
Such cars are actually rather common in the old world, where most people have a short commute and rarely travel long distances.
Well, he seems to have a lot of hot air. Perhaps he can talk into a fan that's attached to a generator.
the company is based in Japan, but much of the american sold cars are BUILT in America.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
"Unfortunately, many people aren't aware of the progress that diesel engines have made in the past 30 years. And it would seem some of those uninformed people are working for the big 3 automakers."
Hopefully. We use to own a BMW diesel and had to plug it in for the heater every winter. Plus I might add here diesel is more expensive than regular gas.
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
They are in League with the Oil Barron that is currently in the White house, and know that by selling it here the oil companies will probably hook up with the Government and put out Mob hits on them like they did with Kennedy...
MacOSX, because making *NIX better is a lot better than waiting for Micro$loth to fix Windows
is that NONE of the major car companies have come up with a simple small electric car. It has to go say at least 70 MPH, and Ideally should be capable of say, 40-50 miles. 2 or 4 or even 6 seats would work. And the price should be below 25K (better if below 20K). If this car was below 20K, many parents would buy it for mom OR for kids. Most Americans do not need multiple long range vehicles.
Yet, Tesla will be out with their stuff before a single car company figures it out.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Try this:
1. Get up from the computer and find someone nearby
2. Ask them, "Would you like a car that gets 65mpg?"
3. After they say "yes", which they will, ask them, "Even if it ran Diesel?"
4. ???
5. Profit!
Come on, Ford. This is why you're losing the manufacturing race in the US...you've got nothing to bring to the table. The interest in such a vehicle is high, regardless of which pump one has to go to to fill up. When you're holding onto a car that gets the same gas mileage as my Honda Rebel motorcycle -- which has gone completely missing around here due to high sales -- that people would get a little interested?
Why not just trim corners a bit on the ECOnetic? I'm sure we'd settle for anything that gets 45+mpg, and there has got to be some technical aspect that can be removed or revamped to make cheaper...the engine and body alone don't account for the entire cost, I'm sure.
You see to be the one talking out of your ass...
Converting corn to bio-deisel will cause inflation of value.
Corn is not used for the creation of biodiesl. Soybeans is the current primary crop for creation of biodiesel, although other crops can be used. Maybe those other crops are used. I'm not sure and will not claim.
It takes somthing like 600 pounds of corn to create 25 gallons of ethanol, which feeds a fatass American for over 15 months.
What does that have to do with current coversation concerning diesel engines and diesel / biodiesel fuel?
You seem to fail to grasp that ethanol is not the same as biodiesel.
Clean diesel fuel just means it's possible to put a $2000 particulate filter and another $1000 (or so) NOx trap on a car, it doesn't make those parts cheap.
Pay now or pay later. If you drive a lot you'll recoup your costs quicker. If you don't drive a lot it may not be worth it.
It's also a nice feeling only having to go to gas stations once a week or two, instead of twice a week. That saves time and hassle.
VW TDIs tend to keep their value better over time as well, so if you finance / purchase the car and want to sell it later you'll keep some of the value of the initial purchase. Diesel engines also tend to last quite a while on average as well.
I'm just sayin'...
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Also GM, and all the rest of you. You are toying with so-called "green" cars and hybrids without taking a fundamental look at what makes your products suck so much - using an IC engine at some point to provide traction to the wheels. Look at this: http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html. Someone needs to get behind this and productionise it ASAP. It's been around for over 2 years now. 0-60 mph in 5 seconds *AND* 80mpg - if it had just normal family car amounts of power it would probably manage 150-200 mpg. 65mpg is a joke.
Every gas pump I've ever seen here in NYC has a diesel dispenser. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't sell those cars into the huge NYC market, which is full of people looking for better gas mileage.
If Ford can't figure that out, it's got a lot bigger problems than just this one car.
--
make install -not war
Beleive it or not, people don't *need* to drive everywhere at 80 miles per hour.
"But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S."
Well fuck you very much, Ford.
And where do you intend to get the energy to split the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen?
And I bet superchargers are a losing proposition too, because where do you get the energy to spin the screw?
Protip: Sometimes the energy gained is greater than the energy used.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Fuck Ford! Seriously!
I was always a domestic car guy until this year, when it came time to finally spend more than a couple grand on a car. I tried, I really did, to find a 2000 or newer Ford that I could buy (I've driven RWD Fords - mostly T-Birds, since before I was old enough to drive). It didn't happen. I'm driving a VW Jetta now (which, although mine is the VR6, has the option for a rather successful turbocharged direct-injection diesel).
They need to get their heads out of their asses. Example: the Falcon. And now this. They're either TRYING to fail miserably, or their heads are so far up the oil executive's asses that they can't breathe.
I have to agree with the rest of your post.
By the way, I'm sure I'll be accused of "circular thinking". Well, I wish things could be stated in Black and White and in a Slashdot post.
But fortunately, there are others, such as the parent to this post, who can bring up points much more concisely then I can and if you read an entire thread, you'll get the point - or better yet, come to your own conclusion.
and miss it in my proof reading!
One thing to remember about this new Ford getting 65 mpg is that they will be using UK gallons for that rating - it is for Europe after all. So considering that there are ~1.2 US gallons for each UK gallon, that Ford would be rated for 54.2 mpg in the US. Sure it's good, but not nearly as good as it first appears.
""But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.'"
The above statement is crap. The real reason they won't sell it here is because the engine is manufactured in the UK, apparently the cost for the engine is so high because of labour rates, and the rest of the car's bits are made throughout the EU. Which means they would get slaughtered on the exchange rate and couldn't sell the car here for less than $25,000 US. If that inbred hick in the Whitehouse would get off his ass and do something about the dollar's poor performance relative to the Euro, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Sig this!
if we would learn that the pedal DOES go all the way to the floor , you CAN accelerate just fine in a modern diesel.
I have the same gripe with anyone driving a car with a smaller engine. Grandma remembers driving that 1967 doge dart with a big block. When half throttle was more then enough to spin the tires. So she wont press very hard when driving her .5 liter honda.
I drive a small car, and would love to get a smaller one; I normally just drive myself to work; my wife has a van for the kids.
How many more Americans are like me ? I think a really small, cheap, fuel-efficient car would be a hit here; who cares if 80% wouldn't want it, if it gets you 100% of the other 20% ?
What kind of country doesn't have diesel at stations?!
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
A less polluting and more efficient source of energy? Like nuclear? Hell, an oil-burning power station is hugely more efficient than an internal combustion engine.
1) The Duratorq engine used on this model of the new Ford Fiesta doesn't come close to meeting the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions standard for internal combustion engines, which is necessary for 50-state sales of the vehicle.
2) Ford did a number of "tricks" to get that very high fuel economy number, notably using very high gearing, low-rolling resistance tires, and removing a number of accessories considered standard for a modern car. As such, you'll have to forgo air conditioning and put up with sluggish acceleration, both of which are unacceptable to American drivers!
If Ford does offer the Duratorq turbodiesel engine on the North American-market Fiesta, it will likely be a larger displacement unit (1.6 liters) with modern emission controls to make the engine meet EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 standard. It may also use the new Powershift six-speed dual-clutch transmission, which is starting to become available on European-market Ford Focus models. Sure, it won't get the extreme fuel economy of the ECOnetic Fiesta, but fuel economy approaching 50 mpg with the current EPA highway fuel economy test may be possible.
One of the first was the Dodge ESX, which managed 72mpg by the third prototype.
Another promising one is the VW Golf disesl hybrid. Claims to reach just under 70mpg. This one might become commercially available.
And back on topic, I own a 2007 Prius. And I would have been just as happy to buy one of these Ford Diesels. Probably happier, since I believe that gasoline is eventually going away. Biodiesel is the future. Here's my favorite breakdown of a biodiesel future.
Ford is being absolutely positively stupid. Sell your Ford stock ASAP. Any company that makes decisions this poorly is going out of business.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I bought a used 2005 Excursion Diesel.
I can haul 8 people and all their stuff (got a fourth kid in the planning stages, 2 parents, dogs, cats, car I tow... )
It weights 7700lbs.
I get 22-24 MPG @ 65-75 MPH.
If I granny it enough, I can get about 16 MPG around town.
I'd love to see more diesels in SMALLER vehicles.
Batteries still suck, are difficult to enclose without gassing the passengers and cars are comparatively heavy. There are plenty of "golf cart" style electric cars used at industrial sites but the final step of a full passenger car adds a lot of weight. In contrast a decent electric motorbike is relatively easy to make.
After all, I've never yet heard of a diesel vehicle that couldn't be converted, from thirties farm tractors to school buses to VW Golfs. And, yes, biodiesel can be made from all sorts of stuff. not just waste but even harvested by the ton from algae. And since it's got a much higher energy density that, say, hydrogen or natural gas, a smaller fuel tank can take you farther and cheaper.
But as for "the USA", if you mean the federal government, I'm not exactly impressed with any branch's performance so far.
If you're talking about the citizenry, they're mostly too busy watching reality TV and hoping for another "wardrobe malfunction" to do much of anything so far, though four dollar gas prices have sure gotten more people off their asses.
Municipalities have been doing an excellent job already of converting their fleet vehicles but mostly haven't gone much beyond that and in many cases are required to buy virgin source fuel from the campaign contributors with the most local pull.
Out here in Oregon, we're busy as hell, from building processing plants to gas stations to inventing new manufacturing technologies. But we're not exactly typical.
Me? I've never owned a car yet. I'm looking to buy one next year but it will probably be something like a Zap but with better batteries and a customized, low-weight freight area.
It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
Last study I heard of rated driving a car at 1,000, riding a motorcycle at 5,000 and being born at 80,000. Basically a bike is 5 times more dangerous than a car.
You can argue with what criteria they used to come up with relative danger but I have a hunch the orders of magnitude are in the ball park.
BTW - Most Motorcycle accidents are single vehicle. Basically they were going too fast for conditions and lost the argument with a telephone pole/ditch/non moving object of your choice.
Perhaps you haven't heard of the First Law of thermodynamics which applies to heat engines.
Also, you might want to look at the Law of Conservation of energy
Basically the problem is that it takes as much energy to split water into H2 and O2 as you would get from putting it back together. And you can't harness the energy from putting it back together without loosing some of it. So the energy gained would always be less than the energy used.
If a supercharger increases an engines efficiency it does so by increasing the efficiency of the overall process (which is normally 10% to 20%) to save more energy than it uses.
This effect doesn't apply to hydrogen because water is split into hydrogen using electricity, and electricity is created mostly from fossil fuels at 30% efficiency. The only way a hydrogen powered car could be more efficient overall than gas powered car is if it converted the chemical energy to physical energy much more efficiently than a gas engine. The only way to do that with modern technology is a fuel cell, which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
if you buy less fuel, gas or diesel eventually the cost of fuel will drop. Then we are buying less fuel and it is now cheaper.
as for the horsepower issue. The more fuel you burn the sooner we run out of it and your horsepower mobile is worthless.
Jake
I don't speed (or if I do, it is not deliberate and I slow back down to the limit) and I am passed left and right (and passing on the right is not legal) and I've seen people scream on discussion forums at anyone who dares to obey the law, as if obeying the law is something to sneer at (it's not; the rules exist for a damn good reason and no one is above it).
Thing is is that roads can typically handle faster traffic than the speed limit. Also speeding doesn't mean you're more dangerous, witness Germany's autobahns. Outside of cities there are no speed limits yet they don't have a higher rate of accidents, er the last tyme I checked they didn't.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Gee, they managed to make a toy car that can extract hydrogen from water using solar power.
If a toy car company can do it, Ford can probably manage the task.
-- Boycott Shell
thats what I read. If they do it, its a done deal!
I could've also anticipated his slowdown a few seconds earlier and lifted off the throttle a bit, but this may result in the driver behind me putting *his* brakes on.
I don't think that's happened to me that much. I speed a lot but I also coast, when I do people either close the distance between us or they change lanes and go around me, some of them honking or flipping a finger. What I find the most dangerous are the ones who have to talk on their cellphone while driving.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Firstly, I feel that people are often looking at scooters and low-displacement motorbikes. For urban drivers, we are talking 100 mpg from a vehicle that is in the 2000-3000K range. Oh, and don't forget the people on bicycles. on
Yes, bikes are more risky, but those risks are:
The driver. But, stupid drivers can get hurt in any vehicle.
Cars. I got wrecked because a car decided it was okay to head into my lane. The bike stood up, I ran out of road and that's that. The guy didn't even notice.
As more and more people get on two wheels, I just ask this of car drivers:
Pay attention. Get off the phone. Don't fuss around.
Start Seeing Motorcycles. Look for us. We are there. We have a right to be on the road too, and a lot of us are really okay.
As for motorcyclists, our part of the bargain:
Know your limits, practice your skills and wear your gear.
Take it easy. If you need a race, find a track.
If you live in a city or small town where diesel costs more than gasoline, you're getting SCREWED.
I suspect that might have a lot to do with the fact that the US government subsidizes the hell out of the gasoline industry to (try to) bring us extra-cheap gasoline.
After all, we have two oil men in the white house right now. If they can't keep the prices down, well, we might actually do something in this country. (ignoring the fact that prices have tripled since they took office)
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I live in the San Francisco bay area, and nearly every highway that has even a small incline gets backed up because people don't know how to keep a steady speed while climbing a hill.
I live in the bay area too, and I just don't see this happening. Yes, people often impede traffic (and create a hazard) by driving too slowly. But as far as I can see, it has nothing to do with hills (which are mostly not that steep; I'll get to the exceptions in a moment). It seems to me that it's most often an attention issue: somebody's looking for a sign or an exit, or talking on the cell phone, and are unaware of what's happening around them.
Anyway, in my usual commute, the big slowdown is because of drivers in a hurry. These are the people who jump lanes on the freeway constantly, thinking they can get ahead of everybody else. Doesn't work, because almost everybody's doing the same thing. Plus they keep surprising other drivers, who hit their brakes, and cause exactly the kind of backup you blame on the slowpokes.
Then there are the folks who wait until the very last moment to merge into the exit lane....
But perhaps you're thinking of the really hilly areas, San Francisco itself. (Where I never drive, if I can avoid it.) There, the problem is simply that there are too many cars for the road system to handle. Even if you could magically flatten it out, it wouldn't get much better.
Can someone explain the logic in taking a fast speed, slowing it down to just a slightly slower but still fast speed, and making people slow down when the construction itself is over a 100 feet from the interstate, with concrete barriers blocking the interstate from the construction?
- the fines are what, doubled? That's the reason: slow people down for now apparent reason and double the fines. Instant cash generator.
You can't handle the truth.
BTW, who decides what cars to build? Who decides how to market them? Who decided to stick with SUVs for far too long? Who decided to kill the electric car? Who fought off increasing CAFE standards?
I know this song...
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who leaves Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs cave fish of their sight?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!
-The Stone Cutters
I had a early 80's Tempo diesel and got 50+ miles to the gallon on trips at 75 to 80 MPH. Bring this car to the US and I would buy one.
Amazing nobody has suggested cutting the friggin' tax. Funny how that is considered radical and crazy.
Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
Gasoline burns faster than diesel. You can have more complete combustion sooner in time and therefore can have a higher rpm (less time per power stroke = not burning fuel as the mixture leaves during the exhaust stroke). The reason that they're heavier is that the combustion pressures are generally higher than gas engines, so diesels have to be built sturdier (at least until we get better materials).
You get better efficiency by increasing the difference in pressures, and since newer diesels are turbocharged, you can force more fuel/air in per power stroke. This has the effect of running on a 'bigger' engine, without all the weight. When we figure out how to reliably get gas direct injection technology to work, eventually running gas in similar parameters that we run in diesels, we'll see more efficient engines. The nice thing about diesels is that you don't break things by running too lean. Running too lean in a gas engine is a great way to have an excuse to go out and buy yourself a new engine.
The bottom line is that we can get great mileage today with today's technology. Americans (and probably the rest of the world) get sold on being able to accelerate quickly. We'd all be fine with engines that have a peak output of whatever the car needs to be able to push air out of the way at whatever reasonable top speed you want. Rough estimate is something like 50 HP or so for the average car at average highway speeds in the USA. Why do you think that the hobbyists that do it for fun drive the way they do?
As far as I know, we like diesel locomotives because those diesels power big generators that run 3 phase motors, which deliver constant power. Constant power means many good things when trying to do work - less vibrations, more even wear-and-tear, etc. That, and diesel fuel is a little more transportable than most fuels that we use to make power.
The problem with diesels on the road is emissions combined with everyone wanting their own car. I understand that many many people have a basic work need to have their own car and have no public transit alternative, but there's a great deal of us that are willing to put up with the hassle and expense of having our own transportation just so we don't have to be at the hassle of other people.
Given the experience and market share of Ford/Opel in Europe it's pretty clear that business decisions like this lunkhead one will lead inexorably to Ford being bought out by Fiat.
Business reason that they can't sell it in the US:TRANSLATION: They can't make it conform to the emissions standards now in effect in many states. 65 MPG. Sounds impressive eh? Oh wait, it is a diesel. ONLY 65 MPG. They should be able to get more than that out of a diesel car by now.
Open Source: Eroding the Digital Divide
Welcome to the club!
I heartily recommend the book "Proficient Motorcycling" for all new riders.
http://www.amazon.com/Proficient-Motorcycling-Ultimate-Guide-Riding/dp/1933958359/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221538561&sr=8-1
"Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."
Replace "Americans" with "American auto companies" and they will get it right. VW just rereleased the Jetta TDI in limited quantities and it is selling like hotcakes.
What's the news here? 65 MPG = 27.63 kmpl.
In July 2006, a Ford Fiesta diesel averaged 31.48 kmpl
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/autocar-ford-fiesta-enter-limca-records/19402-7.html . In August 2008, it averaged 33.4 kmpl under real world conditions http://www.indiantelevision.com/release/y2k8/mar/marrel57.php and http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=131281
Now these are Indian conditions - I guess cars should be able to do much better in Europe and US.
This is the Indian Ford Fiesta which sells at almost USD 16K
There might be some possibly there, but you'd need an enormous capital investment just to get started.
Biodiesel is growing, though maybe not as fast as some would like it. The highwayman Willie Nelson (pun intended) started Bio Willie. Biodiesel production is sharply increasing. An unfortunate side effect is that forests are being cleared for monoculture crops like palm tree plantations for the oil. What I'd like to see is an analysis to see if the cure is worse than the problem.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
You're one of those people who think that everybody else is being rude because you're following the limit, blah blah blah.
You have this attitude of "hey, I'm here, you've got watch out for me".
There is a slogan on the road and it's true. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
What that means is, if you have people stacked up behind you, you're driving too slow regardless of the limit. Move over. I know that seems wrong to you, but you're being a douchbag, and your antics on insisting on your right of way are rising to the level of "asshole".
Seriously man, get over yourself and drive faster or pull over.
So would I. VW has one.
Unfortunately too many uneducated Americans don't do the math, they just see one price. Most of my fellow Americans also think that paying $250/month for 72 months is better than paying $350/month for 48 months for the same car.
A long loan term with lower monthly payments can be a good decision, if the difference in payments is invested. Say the loan interest is 6% and you're able to earn 8% by investing, you come out 2% ahead. Also with lower monthly payments if for any reason you end up having financial trouble, for instance if you lose your job and don't find one for an extended period, the difference in payment amounts may mean the difference between keeping and losing the car. Otherwise you're right about people being in debt up to their eyeballs.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
My 2k1 elantra shows small does not have to equal uncomfortable.
The thing is a compact, and rides like a full size cadillac.
It's possible to make a small comfortable car easily. Just stop skimping on the shocks.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Slushboxes suck up fuel economy like most people don't even believe.
Really? I can't think of a car I've ever seen where the difference in fuel economy for manual vs. automatic was more than 1-2 MPG.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
Don't you mean to say Conservation of Energy(tm) as opposed to someone actually impeding all activities for the said conservation of that energy? You appear to be confusing Conservation of Energy with Conversation of Energy. Explain to me the energy potential of a vacuum, then compare when an introduced element can remove that vacuum instantly. You shitwads wouldn't know conservation of energy if it was raining dicks outside. Energy is finite, always changing to unknown potential, and then contracting to a measurable state to an impediment that will expand it again. Explain the Sun in the solarsystem, how it achieves its balance. When you can control the efficiency, then every change in potential will yeild increase in energy with the symptom of a measured equal exchange with the difference of potential put in store until it fills that vacuum. To where Harry Potter bends over and takes it in the ass by Hermaphrodite Hermione Grainger and her talking one-eyed elephant-trunk tentacle -- and you get to watch, as the newly-announced Gay prophessor Dumbledore gets a rimjob from Voldermort.
I know everything. You can't impress me -- GOATSE.
If you can't be bothered to RTFA, please read this.
Ford makes the engines in Britain. The British pound is high compared to the dollar, so the cars would cost more than a Prius; their best case is that a diesel tax credit might make the car cost only slightly more than a Prius. Their market research indicates that Americans prefer a hybrid gasoline car (such as a Prius) to a diesel, so they don't think the car would sell at the price they would have to charge. It doesn't help that diesel is taxed more than gasoline and thus costs $0.40 to $1.00 more per gallon. Ford could reduce the cost if they start building the diesel engines in Mexico, but they will lose money unless they can sell at least 350,000 diesel engines per year; given their bleak financials they are reluctant to take that risk right now.
Note that VW is selling Jettas with diesel engines, and several other auto makers are introducing diesel models. If American consumers go for these new diesels, Ford may reconsider their decision.
steveha
This means they're lazy.
Hybrids didn't get this way out of nowhere, they were MARKETED.
Build a plant here in the US.. in the mid-west where land, cost of living, and labor are cheap, and where it would be marginally less expensive to ship nation-wide (central location).
Then run a few TV spots: "Diesel: it's not just for semis anymore" or some such... run some techno music, etc.
Honestly it's not that hard.. less than 100m initial investment and you have a permanent plant to build a eco-friendly diesel platform useful on an entire line of cars.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
being able to say "made in america" among all this offshoring should sell a few more.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
In the US corn oil is used for alot of biodiesel and it is increasing.
It has slowwed a little, and some new plants delayed because of the high cost of corn but with prices lowering except it to ramp up again.
lazy American asses. cars are too good for you. can't install diesel, can't learn to shift gears? I mean, why do you even bother saying anything about how difficult it is to drive and pay for it, if you just do nothing about it later.
You want Diesel? Diesel wants you.
Today's USA Diesels must comply with Tier II EPA regulations, whether locomotive, tractor-trailer, etc.
In 2010 Diesel in the USA must comply with EPA Tier III standards(Cummins engines are already Tier III compliant).
It was discovered years ago that instead of adding "filters" or cat. converters, it was best to start from scratch and build a lean engine.
You notice emissions as a foul smell from Diesel engines, yet you fail to recognize that your desensitized to emissions from gasoline burning engines.
Ford failed to mention anything about EPA Tier II or Tier III compliance.
California effectively killed production of the Isuzu Diesel, that was to be used in the Chevy S10 and the GMC S15 in the early eighties for production in America. That's why the early S10/S15 repair manuals contain Diesel repair procedures.
Don't you think...? Or don't you?
And I bet superchargers are a losing proposition too, because where do you get the energy to spin the screw? Protip: Sometimes the energy gained is greater than the energy used.
Protip: superchargers don't gain any energy, they increase the air the engine takes in thus allowing it to burn more fuel per rotation, all the additional energy comes from the increased fuel you burn. Any efficiency improvements come from increased compression or in a few circumstances from the reduced pumping losses because the compressor is more efficient than the piston is at moving air into the engine (though there aren't many designs this is true of and none in current production that I know of.)
the 2009 diesel still drives in 2020 - it will smell like a 2009 diesel then, and yes: it will give smoke. Anyone every say these filters need to be replaced every so often ?
I prefer hybrid+ technology or even H2 - but I stay away from diesels, every diesel... (I drove 2 diesel cars, and am currently driving a Prius)
It's irrelevant to them that they're getting a 50-100% mileage improvement, which far outweighs the increased fuel cost, because they're paying more for the fuel in the first place.
antipaucity
This wouldn't matter if people in more powerful cars would actually use slip-roads properly. It frustrates me to no end, in my little 1.1 petrol Citroen, when the BMW in front of me does 40 down the slip-road, joins the motorway, and then accelerates up the uphill climb while I'm forced to thrash the gearbox.
This is all despite the fact that my car is perfectly capable of reaching 60 on the slip-road (the speed that the inside-lane traffic, mainly lorries, is going to be doing).
Shit, I'm going to need to translate this.
Slip-road -> on-ramp,
Petrol -> gasoline,
Motorway -> divided highway?,
Inside-lane -> outside lane,
Lorry -> truck.
British cars always sound like they get better MPG but then our gallons are bigger.. is the MPG quote they made in imperial or US?
CEO's make 262 times what a worker makes, up from 24 times in 1966. Where's the money going? Not into plant and equipment. Check this guy out:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/05/news/companies/ford_execpay/ [cnn.com]
He is 265 times more valuable. When you find workers that can sell a million cars a year, then you go right ahead. Mulally can walk into a room and sell you a bunch of jumbo jets, as he did when he turned Boeing around. If the average guy could sell that well, they wouldn't be working on an assembly line, now would they.
This is my sig.
Can someone explain the logic in taking a fast speed, slowing it down to just a slightly slower but still fast speed, and making people slow down when the construction itself is over a 100 feet from the interstate, with concrete barriers blocking the interstate from the construction?
I once saw a big American made pickup that had flown over such a barrier and into the construction area behind it. I am still wondering how the guy did it. I suppose you are right that slowing down from 75 to 55 is not much protection but the idea that these concrete barriers afford much protection for construction workers is misleading. I suppose the slow-down is intended to minimize the damage in the event of a crash. Not that anybody ever seems to observe these speed limits. There is plenty of people that seem to consider them selves to be on a mission form god never to observe speed limits. A couple of months ago I drove through a construction zone on the A1 in Germany where the max speed was 80 Kph, which I tried to observe. As I left the low speed zone and accelerated to about 100kph to overtake a truck I heard the screeching of tires behind me. When I looked in the rear view mirror I saw a a Renault station wearing Dutch plates and carrying a couple of people in the front seat with an expression of sheer terror etched into their faces. The guy must have breezed through that construction zone at some 120-130 kph or more. I was lucky that this didn't end in a nasty accident but then again I wasn't the one driving like an asshat.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Ford has been producing good diesels in Europe for years. They own Volvo who engineered a superb 2.2 TDI engine that they put in their Mondeo - I have the same engine in my Jaguar estate. It's over 150PS and I regularly get over 50mpg. It's quiet and smooth with incredible torque - 400Nm at about 2500rpm. Ford have left it too late to produce the engines in North America as they can't afford to build a new engine plant. I think we'll see the demise of Ford soon unless they start behaving in a more agile and innovative way.
Yep, that would be the norm. But some European bypasses have ramps on the wrong side, such as Glasgow Cathedral Eastbound (UK, on the right) and Milan Linate Airport Southbound (Italy, on the left). This saves demolition of entire neighbourhoods and things like that.
Currently in the UK we're paying approx $9 / US gallon. One of the main reasons we like small cars and you guys drive huge SUVs, I should imagine. Gasoline will never go below $9 / gallon here, it will only go up. I guess it will be closer to $10 in a year's time.
Diesel is not so much considered "underpowered and stinky" here in the UK these days, maybe 30 or 40 years ago. As much seen as a fuel source for middle class big family cars as farmers' off road vehicles. Diesel is perceived as the economical option if you're doing regular long distance driving, most salesmans' mid range saloons have diesel versions.
All we have to do is start designing efficient cars again. A Honda CRX-HF was advertised as having 52/60 mpg rating, not a hybrid and with regular gas, and that was many years ago. I refuse to accept that adding airbags or whatever safety equipment can't be done in a way that doesn't cut the mileage in half. All the car companies must get a cut of gas revenue... that's why they didn't care until people simply stopped buying as much gas AND as many cars.
stuff |
It think it is possible that some US car makers have agreed on not introducing spectacular MPG improvements to avoid crashing the market for other cars.
But I also think this is a spectacularly bad idea, because they cannot realistically expect the rest of the world to join their little cartel. Sooner or later someone else will introduce a comparable car to the US (maybe Toyota?), and then Ford and the others will be even more up shits creek w/o paddle.
C - the footgun of programming languages
If you are not *actively passing someone* you should move over to the right.
It isn't the fast lane, it's the passing lane.
Totally a guess but I'd estimate something like 2/3 to 3/4 cars in the UK are petrol rather than diesel.
I guess "stinky" is a pretty subjective personal opinion. I think they both stink pretty bad myself. Can't say I've ever thought of burnt petrol (gasoline) as having a pleasant smell that I'd like to be around too much.
How much is gasoline in Germany by the way, is it about the same as UK or significantly different?
cheers!
Until Ford can make a car that will travel a guaranteed 65MPH between my destinations I'd rather have my commute time be time I can spend semi-productively, or at least reading /.
Why is this news? I had a hire car (a VW Golf TDI) for a week this summer. I didn't have to try very hard at all to get over 60mpg.
They're 100% right to say business reasons dictate this decision - and diesel is a big part of it.
Upcoming diesel large particulate regulations in the US would cut the efficency of this engine by 40%. 65mpg sounds like it could be good enough for American's to stomach diesel, even at higher prices - but 39mpg will not be.
Strict regulations, growing demand for diesel in less-developed countries (everyone does diesel before gas), and the fact that Americans want electrics/hybrids make this a smart move.
Around here that tends to ensure that you get:
a) Tailgated on the right
b) Stuck in front of or behind guys making a sudden lane-change because they're missing their offramp
c) Dodging vehicles coming in on the onramp
I'm not saying that slower vehicles shouldn't drive on the right, but it seems that 85% of the time those passing you on either end are actually traffic-dodgers who are going fast and - really - wouldn't give a shit what lane they're in.
"There is a reason that it is automatically your fault if you rear-end someone"
I've heard this argument consistently, and while I've seen many accidents due to some idiot tailgating and not able to stop in time, or not paying attention, I've seen others where the guy was just plain cut off by a traffic dodger. In some situations, the traffic dodger then finds a sudden need to decellerate, and the person following (who had a perfectly acceptable safe following distance) nails him from behind because there simple wasn't time to adjust the SFD.
AC doesn't seem to consider the time-value of money. Anyone who thinks about it will know that a dollar now is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. You don't just multiply the payment by the number of months to make your financing decision. (Or better yet, if you do I'll borrow $100 from you now and give you $100 in 20 years and you wouldn't care and I'll laugh all the way to the bank.) At around 7.4%, the two described cashflows above will result in the same present value. Meaning that you would be indifferent as to which one to chose. If you think that you could invest your money and make a better better return than 7.4% (after tax!), then you would choose the smaller monthly payment and invest your cash. Or if you really need the money now you would choose this option (meaning that, to you, a dollar now is worth $1.00 but a dollar in a year is worth less than 1.00-7.4= 92.6 cents) It really depends on the buyer's unique situation.
One more reason to keep an eye on your money.
I can speak to the whole "idiots passing on the right" thing.
When I was racing, I drove a fairly large and long tow rig. Not quite as big as a full semi-trailer rig, but still pretty big and heavy.
When you drive something this size, you don't have the ability to suddenly jog left or right, because you are 2.5 cars long. A simple shoulder check won't cut it, because your "side impact zone" is 1.5 times longer than on a full size car. I could have 3 compact cars running nose-to-tail fit alongside my rig.
Furthermore, when you weigh 10,000 lbs, you cannot speed up or slow down very well. You have to be looking quite a bit farther down the road than one does driving a passenger car.
And finally, you have an absolutely MASSIVE blind spot running down the right hand side of the rig. Tow mirrors with fisheyes help a lot, but it is possible to stick a car along the right hand side of the rig and I *absolutely* cannot see you there.
On open two-lane Interstate, I keep right. I'm quite a bit slower (120 km/h) than most passenger car traffic, and on-ramps are infrequent enough that it's not a big deal to move left to avoid the merge lanes as they arrive.
On three-lane Interstate, I stay in the center lane. This gets me away from merge lanes on the right (especially in large urban environments where merges can happen with no warning) and yet still leaves the leftmost lane open for faster traffic.
On crowded 2-lane Interstate, I'm probably in the left lane. The threat to me from merging traffic is just too high for me to keep right, because 4-wheelers won't create space for me to move left as we approach a merge lane - they see the left lane as their divine right and will zip right in even as I am moving left. Rather than get caught between an idiot moving into me from the right and idiots not giving me space to temporarily move left to dodge the right-side idiot, I'll plug the left lane and stay safe. I will attempt to move right again as soon as I can, but my safety trumps your convienience.
But most Insterstate where the on-ramp frequency is high enough to pose this problem is three-lane, so I can take the middle lane and both stay safe from merges and yet not block the fast lane.
But here's what drives me nuts: an open left lane, and somebody passes me on the RIGHT. I absolutely cannot see you coming, and I don't expect to be passed on the right hand side. If I am trying to move right to unplug the left lanes (which I try to do as often as I can) I will hit you - and I cannot manouvre very well to avoid you if I *do* suddenly see you.
When you pass on the right, you seriously endanger both yourself and the vehicle you are passing - whereas if you take the open left lane, there's no danger AT ALL - and yet morons continue to pass on the right.
If I am plugging the left lane and you absolutely need by, give me a flash of the high beams, and I will move right for you as soon as I am safely able to. "Flash to pass" is a polite way of requesting the lane, and I will respect politeness.
But if I see you coming on the right, I'll probably box you, because I don't want a moron in a position where he can pose a threat.
Passing on the right is NEVER EVER EVER justified. It is just stupid dangerous.
And as rigs go, I was fairly small. The problem is way, way worse with semis. You should hear them talk on the CB when some 4-wheeler passes on the right....
You'll see some semis marked with "" on the back, and that is no exaggeration.
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
I agree totally - I have a Peugeot with 1.9litre Turbo Diesel engine which is a hell of a lot faster than my last petrol car (thanks in no small part to the fantastic turbo which kicks in at fairly low rpm to give a more even power band), but puts out anything from 50mpg upwards depending on how I drive it - and this is a 12 year old card with over 100k miles on the clock!!! Audi put out a car half a decade ago that claimed 80mpg combined cycle. The missus had a Toyota Corolla for a while that would easily do 70mpg at motorway cruising speeds (70mph) and around 50-60mpg at 30mph. She now has a Honda that has similar figures. If people still have any doubts about the power of a diesel compared to a petrol engine they only need to look at the results for Le Mans 24 Hour this year (and the whole of the GT season) - dominated by diesels, with the top 6 positions taken by Audi and Peugeot.
I swapped my 1998 VW TDi (115hp) for a Jaguar X-Type 2.5 (4wd and Auto box). Big mistake. Although the Jag was smooth as silk, the VW did twice the MPG and was just as quick.
I swapped the Jag for a BMW 330D (I6 - 204hp with Auto box) which is as smooth as the Jag was and never returns less than 35MPG. As standard it has more torques than many V8's which matches an Auto box nicely.
I'm converted to Diesel.
P.S. The Mini Diesel averages 75MPG
Are you aware of the environmental destruction caused by rubber harvesting for bike tires? Where does the grease for your gears come from? Planet rapist.
I walk to work in shoes made from my own toenail clippings, wearing a breathing mask to filter out microbes so my immune system doesn't kill them, brushing bugs out of the way with a broom made from my own hair.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The fiesta is coming to the States but it will only be the 35MPG in the city, which seems pretty good. I think they will start around $14K USD and be available oct '09, i stand corrected on that date though.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/22/u-s-spec-ford-fiesta-snapped-at-burger-king/
Whoever first markets a car that gets 65MPG in America wins! If Ford is unwilling to sell the car "due to market reasons" (ie: would cut into sales of more profitable bigger cars), then the Japanese, Koreans, Germans, etc will start marketing a similar car. Ford will be left, as usual, saying "what happened to sales". Inovate or die with the dinosaurs.
Diesel is about 30% more efficient than gasoline plus it takes less to refine it. Instead of encouraging diesel use the US taxes it at a higher rate, which is the main reason it costs more even though it costs less to make. If the US would tax it on the same bases as gasoline or less and gave incentives to buy diesel cars we would quickly reduce some of our import needs. Also you can just add bio-diesel into the regular diesel distribution network as needed. They mix fine. Seems to me that this would be the quickest way to make and impact.
And where do you intend to get the energy to split the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen?
From gasoline. Duh.
If is cost $350m to build a diesel plant in Brazil, how is it only $100 in the Mid-West?
I'm always shock when people are advertizing low fuel consumption then they mention oh it's a diesel engine.
64 MPG on a diesel engine is not good, i've seen better.
now 64 MPG on basic unleaded gas now that would be incredible but Diesel has always been on the upper hand of low fuel consumption.
Are those british gallons?
There was a report on TV a few months ago about some british cars have a better mileage than equivalent American Cars.
The funny part is that a british gallon has 5 us quarts while an American gallon has only 4 us quarts.
When told about those facts the story was killed instead of a correction being made.
>I just guess no one is taught anymore that the left lane(s) are for passing,
>and if you're going slower than traffic around you, pull to the right and let them by.
The left lane is indeed for passing.
But the speed limit is the speed limit. It applies to all lanes, including the left one. If I'm in the left lane and doing at least the speed limit, people behind me just need to wait their turn until I can get back into the right lane again.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
When will the American car companies get their collective heads out of their colelctive @$$e$??? The reason foriegn cars are kicking their @$$ is because they havne't gotten the clue what WE need! Or they haven't figured out how to do it. My next vehicle sure as heck isn't going to be one built out of Detroit - why - becuase they are too stupid to get my business. They aren't giving comsumers what they want/need. They are still stuck in the midframe that everyone wants a friggen gas guzzeling SUV and truck. Look at the plants that are being shut down and the people bieng layed off. They were/are the gas guzzler plants. Have they bothered to retrofit ANY of the plants to start building Electric or Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles? Not that I have seen. They all deserve to go the way of Lheman Bros.! Maybe some inteligent American will start producing electric and/or hydrogen fuel cell vehciles en mass for the public and give the big old middle finger to the oil companies - and give the American people what the want/need.
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Biodiesel, which is mostly made from old french-fry oil, can only be made in Europe, because -
that's where those cheese-eating French-Fries are!
Here in AMERICA, we have FREEDOM FRIES!
And they are MEAN and LEAN! Definitely not fatty or greasy!
- Aaron A. -
Bringing Pinoqachole to the natives since 1643.
How on earth is engine braking a hypermiling technique?
Hint: the engine is not generating diesel fuel from your kinetic energy.
Why don't you go out and look around at all the entrepreneurs selling the kits at their conventions, rather than respond with the default troll of "thermodynamics blah blah more in than out."
You can find me on the #joecell channel where we stuff our homebrew h2o-electrolyte electrolytic negatively-charged capacitors up your pathetic whigger ass because you absolutely fucking FAILED to disprove me on the basis of the Royal Raymond Rife effect which pounds the STuFUcking out of your hook-nosed kike GoldBerger jewy jewbahka response.
In Rod you trust, you tard.
Come now, that's no way to talk. It's spelled "wigger".
Little bit of trivia for you, "Jewbacca" was a rejected character name in an early draft of Spaceballs.
How does motorway widening help speed up traffic throughput?
Well, that's a big, big reason. Why would I buy a diesel car that has better mpg if diesel fuel now costs a dollar and a half more than gasoline (more in the winter, when they start refining more heating oil)?
Because you could live in a country where biodiesel and bioethanol are made out of dead cheap products, like agricultural *waste products*, instead of competing for resources that may be used somewhere else.
Like done, for example, in European countries.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
And where do you intend to get the energy to split the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen?
Pull it from the alternator. There's an excess of energy in the system during deceleration that can be usefully extracted (somewhat like regenerative braking on an electric vehicle), and the efficiency of such a system is good enough that it's not a significant drain during acceleration.
Size of the plant? But anyway, building a new plant is silly when they're closing existing facilities - just retrofit one.
protip: if your end state is the same as your beginning state you're not going to gain energy
Insanity: voting in the same two parties over and over again and expecting different results
If you had been paying attentin you would ahve noticed a big shift in the alst two year. TO there credit, until 2 or so years ago they where making a lot of money with their SUV and truck divisions.
Should they have abandoned a product that makes money?
"start producing electric and/or hydrogen fuel cell "
How about we develop better technologies? and they are designing and building electric and hybrid vehicles. Maybe you should actually look before making yourself look like a giant fool?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Allowing a denser fuel is "cheating" when the tank volume is limited rather than the weight of the fuel or the energy content of the fuel being limited. Put another way, the tank VOLUME limit only makes sense if everyone is using the same fuel. Fewer pit stops is a clear advantage.
Ok. I'd think that carrying more weight would make up for fewer pit stops, maybe not enough though.
Falcon
Should there be a Law?
Why are you in the left lane in the first place?
(The above is actually an honest question, and not a flamebait. I've seen enough drivers in the left lane for no apparent reason, and certainly not for passing since there were no other cars close enough to qualify for passing, to be wary of anyone just stating they were in the left lane for actual passing, without explicitly stating the fact.)
My personal opinion about your stance is: You appear to care (way) more about the arbitrary speed limit than about everyone else around you. My priority is the reverse: I care first and foremost about my surroundings, including all other drivers around me, and then about the speed limit. You are aware of the fact that frustrated drivers are more dangerous than those who are not? Right?
Or, in shorter terms:
- First: Cause no accidents and minimal frustration.
- Then: Follow speed limits.
YMMV. Obviously.
>Why are you in the left lane in the first place?
To pass someone not driving the speed limit in the right lane.
>My personal opinion about your stance is: You appear to care (way) more about the arbitrary speed limit than
>about everyone else around you. My priority is the reverse: I care first and foremost about my surroundings,
>including all other drivers around me, and then about the speed limit. You are aware of the fact that
>frustrated drivers are more dangerous than those who are not? Right?
I will not risk getting a speeding ticket to salve other driver's frustration over not being able to exceed the speed limit.
My priorities are:
- First: Obey all traffic laws so as to avoid fines and penalties.
- Second: Get to my destination safely and quickly.
- Third: Other people's feelings.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Boy. No wonder why this company may not last much longer, they make such stupid decisions as this one. These cars would sell like hot cakes and more effectively compete with Toyota and Honda and all they are planning is sell a new big truck that only gets 1 more mpg (15mpg city,21mpg hwy) STUPID! They deserve to go bankrupt and be denied federal aid.
In some other comments in replies to me and my experience with getting 40mpg in a 76 corolla (9:1 compression ratio) using specifically Texaco premium gas during the gulf war, there seems to be some confusion about octane.
For the purposes of this post, the octane rating will be rendered in terms of RON+MON/2, which is the standard in the US, where 87 = about 91 RON. Europe I believe uses RON exclusively, where in the US and Canada, the rating is an average of two measurements.
The octane rating suggests a percent of octane to other materials, such as heptane. Something rated at 100 behaves like a solution of 100% octane in tests. However numbers above 100 exist, due to fuel additives a fuel measure as being more stable than pure octane. You can compress octane to a higher pressure than heptane, but octane is more difficult to burn. For this reason, some heptane is actually desirable.
IIRC standard 87 RON+MON/2 fuel is rated at about 35 MJ/liter
premium fuel is rated at about 40MJ/liter
These numbers are approximate and the actual energy content of a given mix will vary.
Modern cars have complex computer controlled ignition which will adjust the timing and air/fuel mix typically based on the CO sensor located in the catalytic converter. As such, you don't "need" to buy the highest grade fuel. However premium fuel might be desirable. But in my experience, the biggest difference in fuel economy isn't so much the premium gas, but finding the brand best suited to your car. An Audi for example might be more efficient using BP gas, a Honda might prefer Chevron.
Anyone who owns a car should take the time to note their fuel economy on the various brands available. It's the least you can do, and might save you bucks in the long term. You might enjoy benefits from the premium fuel, but this really depends on the car. Most of the time, premium fuel doesn't result in much difference. You'd most likely notice one if your engine's compression ratio is 9:1 or above.
And watch out when buying fuel at high altitudes. It's not uncommon to see lower than 87 octane fuels available. At lower pressure, 82 octane might work just fine until you hit a valley.
So to close
1) The octane rating is how a behaves in contrast to fuel with that percent octane to heptane.
2) A switch between brands will likely result in a greater difference than going premium.
3) Premium is worth trying just for laughs if your manual says it's okay, or if your engine uses a compression ratio of 9:1 or above.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
I have a diesel pickup and get just as good of mileage with it as with my car. When diesel prices fall below gas, I use my pickup more. I saw something about this a long time ago. Dodge worked with Mitsubishi to make a really efficient car called a Colt in the late 80s - it got like 50 mpg HWY with a gas engine. But 65 mpg is great & I'd like the option anyway.
I researched and found this article on Ford's website about Fiesta coming to the US market...
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=28337