Slashdot Mirror
Doing the Math On the New MacBook
Technologizer writes "Apple's new MacBook is a significantly different machine than its predecessor — a slicker laptop at a higher price point. But does it carry a large price premium over similar Windows PCs? I did a painstaking spec-by-spec comparison versus three roughly comparably-configured Windows machines, and came to the conclusion that the value it offers for price paid is not out of whack with the Windows world." The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
I don't know who paid it, but someone did:
The challenge of the thumbscoop was to create a crisply machined scoop that was still comfortable to use. The designers at Apple worked on hundreds of versions of the thumbscoop -- even examining them under an electron microscope -- to get it right.
If anyone can read that last part without laughing...
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WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
"The differences between OS X and Windows are far more significant than any spec I discuss in this article. But Iâ(TM)m trying to focus mostly on speeds and feeds here" - what means that mac tax in this context ? I think this is apples and oranges(or windows pc) comparison, if you don't count system at integral whole, but only fragment
There's one major difference this analysis doesn't cover. If you're patient, you can get a dell for up to 40% off, and although it's not quite as drastic with Lenovo, the same is true. This macbook will ALWAYS be expensive.
Macs are design items. Some people don't mind paying a higher price for something which appeals to them.
Price is what you pay, value is what you get. If you subjectively feel that the value of the product matches the price paid then an objective comparison is not significant.
.: Max Romantschuk
is the OS. You dont get mac os x on another machine!
Seriously, no FireWire? I know they tried to screw the IEEE 1394 working group with the bait-and-switch license pricing tactic, and the beating they took in the industry was well deserved. But 1394 is superior from an operational standpoint, even if the controllers are a bit of unwieldy packaging-wise and expensive to boot. To have removed it completely from the low-end laptop doesn't bode well for it's future in the rest of the consumer hardware line, although lots of people still have MiniDV cams that use it. USB2/3 will in no way be able to fill that gap, even with the coming surge in hard-disk video cameras.
You fail, Apple. No FW400 (at a freakin' minimum, come on), no sale. I'll get the Dell or the Lenovo and Hackintosh the bejeezus out of it.
Macintosh products have always been competitive, even back to the first one, the 128 KB model in Spring of 1984. The thing is, they tend to be loaded with features. For example, even the first Mac had built-in networking.
No Firewire, so I'm not buying it. It's too bad since I am looking for a new laptop and, other than the absence of Firewire, it seems like a fine machine. What are some good alternatives?
Did that commenter also point out that "Mac tax" is (the first time) both written in quotation marks to imply that it's not their phrase and link to an article that was called "Are Macs More Expensive? Definitely - Just Ask Microsoft!"? The whole point of the article is that the phrase has been coined and they're investigating whether Macs are more expensive for the specs than comparable PCs.
Not that I'm saying Macs are cheap - I'd rather custom build/upgrade and slap Linux on it - but it's not as if it's an unbalanced comparison article.
It's generally known on Slashdot that Apple's MacBooks are competitive with Windows PCs at their price, when all of their features are considered (specifically, screen size and battery life), when first released. It's usually the higher-end MacBook Pros and Mac Pros that are considered overpriced (and the upgrades).
And there are the other arguments, such as the increased stability and usability that comes when an OS manufacturer has such control over hardware (although whether this is a good or bad thing is left as an exercise for the reader).
Want a high quality FOSS RTS game? Try Warzone 2100!
Fingerprint Scanner
The Dell and Sony have one. ADVANTAGE: DELL AND SONY
It makes me laugh every time: Hmmmm a finger print reader......where would I be able to find fingerprints of someone who has used this laptop that I have just stolen? Sure hope they don't always use gloves when they type.....
I mean, where can you think of a more cool-but-useless feature? And it is sooo cool.......
Qxe4
1) MacBook (Beginning of 2006):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
2) MacBook (End of 2006):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
3) MacBook (Mid 2007):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
4) MacBook (End of 2007):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
5) MacBook (Beginning of 2008):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
And now - totally surprising:
5) MacBook (End of 2008):
"AAAAH, EXPENSIVE"
"See, i did the math, it's comparable!"
Who would have thought!
There are many, many examples of how the 'reviewer' has simply picked the wrong comparisons. Sony and Lenovo are notoriously expensive. Generic Dells are notoriously crappy. And of course, where the Apple is deficient (e.g. hard disk space or RAM) the reviewer doesn't add the necessary upgrades at Apple's prices to make the price comparison fair, it simply ignores them.
I can't link to it because of Dell's site, but for about $100 more Dell currently has an XPS 1330 which whips the Macbook in virtually every respect: much better graphics, much more RAM and HDD, significantly faster CPU, bigger battery, better connectivity, and so on. Mysteriously, the reviewer has instead selected a relatively poor quality Dell as a comparison point.
Some other selections from TFA:
How? This is not explained. Does "different class" mean "much cheaper?
I understand that the objective is to compare "like-for-like" and see whether Apple is adding a premium, but if an AMD chip (or a different Intel chip) offers comparable or better performance but is not available on a Mac, then how is that not part of the 'cost' of buying Apple? Limiting it to Core 2 Duo seems unneccessary. And why is it legitimate to reconfigure the competition, but not the Mac? Could it be that Apple savagely gouge you for any upgrades?
Why not pay whatever Apple charges for the same capacity? One of the biggest Apple gouges is when you add RAM or storage to their preconfigured systems. Ignoring this is not justified.
And yet, there would be hundreds of x86 laptops on the market that provide 4 or more.
Or you could pick a different Dell, like an XPS series model, and get HDMI, s-video and DVI as standard. In addition, the review does not appear to add in the cost of Apples various dongles and attachments.
HDMI equates to "optical out" and is arguably more useful for modern hi-fi equipment. I am relatively ignorant about audio in options.
Again, this is simply a result of picking the wrong competition - again check out (for instance) Dell XPS laptops, which are extremely well built and solid.
Read Pynchon.
Long story short, the least expensive Windows laptop he found comparable to the $1400 MacBook was an $820 Dell, making the Mac Tax a whole 70% on top of the price-conscious buyer's choice in the Windows world.
However, he did succeed in finding two similarly overpriced models to the Mac from Sony and Lenovo, demonstrating that bad choices are also available in the PC world, if you look hard enough.
Noone here seems to have pointed out that "Microsoft Tax" is a marketing canard as well.
To reply to my own post, knocking the 13" Macbook up to the same specs as the Lenovo in terms of RAM, HDD, and video out increases the price to $1,457.00, or $150-200 more than the Lenovo depending on whether we go by the "sale price" or the list price.
So in summary: yes, there is a "Mac tax" (which incidentally is a phrase which was in use long before MS adopted it).
Read Pynchon.
Im a big Mac guy, but even I felt bad for my friend who wanted to switch, he wanted to rebuy his computer again (long story), his $1500 NZD PC (some media centre thing with tv tuner card etc) was roughly equal in specs to the $3000 NZD iMac he ended up getting, once the warranty on the Mac was brought up to 3 years as well as rebuying Office for Mac. It was painful, and he misses the TV Tuner, ones I've seen that plug in cost HUNDREDS! Ouch.
Maybe in America, but I think in many parts of the world, Macs are very sadly more expensive than PCs. I compare my Macs to computers a friend has built for himself, and theres a big difference in price. I would still take the Mac for design and OSX, but they are not cheap here in New Zealand :)
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You will also get some brands of Windows laptop much cheaper by shopping around. In fact, Dell is one of the only companies who don't fall into this category.
Not to mention that the review picks Lenovo and Sony, two of the most expensive brands. Where is Asus, for instance?
Read Pynchon.
It's interesting, how the reviewer first talked about the MacBook being a different class than the el cheapo laptops yet in the comparison one the most defining characteristics of a business class laptop, construction (you know, the reason that (ex-)IBM laptops cost so much) did not have its own category, it was lumped together with "asthetics". (And yes, construction-wise the old MacBook was some weak plastic shit, I have not seen the new one yet, though.)
Real life is overrated.
The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
That idea was mentioned all the way back to the days of WfW 3.11. And was mentioned when the (short lived) CEO said "we are committed to maintaining shareholder value" (windows 95 timeframe, Pre Gil)
The difference is now that:
1) Apple is UNIX (FreeBSD)
2) Apple is using the same data buses as others
3) Apple is using the Intel processor line
The idea of a Jobs/Apple/Max tax is easier to make.
Microsoft can't really complain about closed source or screwing over customers/suppliers (See Newton or Apple ][, or ask Motorola about the Power PC) and Microsoft has a history of flogging others ideas as their own - so if the submitter wants to think Microsoft 'came up' with the idea of 'mac tax' - fine...whatever. Reality is otherwise.
From Apple's Macbook mini-site:
So there you have it. If Apple is funding the development of technology to send their designers into the future, where they must then spend years infiltrating futuristic IEEE meetings before returning to the present to design laptops, then of course their machines will be a little more expensive.
But just think of the money you'll save when you can browse the Omninet using remote mind-control in 3245AD while those Dell suckers are stuck with forking out for Dell's by-then outdated brain-implant technology.
Read Pynchon.
In TFA it is stated on page 3 that the MacBook costs 1299$ while the Lenovo is 1264.84$, the Sony is $1194.99 and the Dell is $819. Yet, in order to make the MacBook appear to be not so expensive in comparison, it states that they are all of comparable value and therefore, as you should ignore price differences in the scale of 100$, they all cost the same. I mean, WTF?
But that isn't all. There are a few more laptop manufacturers that, oddly enough, happen to be the world's leading laptop manufacturers (Acer, HP, Asus, etc) and also, oddly enough, offer similar laptops in the same price range of the Dell laptop. In fact, Sony and Lenovo are known as the inexplicably expensive laptop brands.
So, having said that, how exactly can anyone claim that the Apple laptops aren't expensive when you realize that their laptops are more expensive than the already expensive windows laptops? You can't.
P.S.: The current Apple laptops are also PCs. It doesn't make sense to claim that a Windows laptop is a PC while the Apple laptop is something else.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.
This guy has the gal to say that the MacBook should get points for having a low environmental impact.
That alone makes the entire article meaningless.
One reason I dislike current laptops are their (generally) crappy LCD resolutions. Over the past 7-8 years I've only used laptops with 14.1in SXGA+ LCDs, including the T60p I'm typing this from. I actually prefer the 14.1in SXGA+ LCDs, but I know it's a losing battle. A very limited number of T61p were released with them, and I'm pretty sure they'll be the last in history.
I'm not unreasonable, and I understand that movies look better if they fill the widescreen. Although with all the variations in widescreen ratios, I'm yet to see a movie without any black borders. You can also display two documents side by side, even though 90% of people I've seen only show a single maximized instance of MS Word with a single document open. Widescreens do take less room in cramped spaces, allow for more keyboard space and even numpads, etc. However I use my laptop for typing, and screen height is far more important than width. I'm a minority though, so I'll adapt.
Now assuming I'd be looking for a replacement laptop tomorrow (hopefully my T60p will last a while), moving to Apple would mean going "down" to a 15.4in WSXGA (loss of 150pixel height) on the Macbook Pros or 13.3in WXGA (loss of 250pixel height and 200pixel width) on the Macbooks. THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS.
On the other hand I just checked out Lenovo's site. Their T500 laptop is offered with a 15.4in WSXGA or WSGA+ resolution. The WSXGA+ is only a $75 upgrade, and it offers the same height and much more width than my SXGA+. The rest of the specs are very close to the Macbook Pro, but at first glance it's about $200 cheaper.
Beyond their arguably sleek design, the absolutely only reason any rational person would even consider a Macbook or Macbook Pro is OS X. I used it briefly, and I really liked it. Unfortunately given my laptop use, the OS alone is not incentive enough to put up with the limited and (slightly) more expensive hardware.
Not surprising really when there are 10x the number of PC laptops for sale and consumers have the freedom to buy their computers from any store they like. PC prices also head south (or the specs improve) while the Apple price doesn't until the next refresh which could be 6 months.
So yes Apple computers are obviously more expensive than their counterparts and represent terrible value as time advances. Maybe the gulf is not as wide as it once was but its still there.
"windows tax" The term "windows tax" was coined because you couldn't buy a PC from a major manufacturer WITHOUT buying Windows too, even if you would never use it. It was a response to an abusive monopolistic practice, not a complaint about price per se. I suppose you could argue that if you buy a Mac then immediately install Linux on it you are still paying an OS X tax, but since Apple hardly has the market for laptops cornered, I would argue that this is a moot point.
Monstar L
With all due respect there are not a huge number of things that really honestly require a Mac these days.
To paraphrase Joe Biden, "two words - World of Warcraft."
WoW really rocks on a Mac. As a Draenei in Winterspring on a Mac you can almost feel the snow beneath your hooves ...
seriously though, the largest part of laptops i see at my university (i study computer science) are macbooks. students usually arent that rich, but we usually know what we need more than the usual lets-buy-an-asus-laptop guy.
Is it more expensive than a high-end Windows machine? Not really.
Who buys those high-end Windows machines? Nobody with any sense.
Does Apple offer $500 laptops? Nope.
Ergo, Apple is expensive.
No sig today...
Hmm, reading that article what I find myself thinking is "I wish there was a Hardee's somewhere in London", because that Monster Thickburger is making me hungry. I suspect there's something about computers in there too, but now I'm just hungry.
Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.
With friends like you, McCain sure is on to a winner...
thanks to the python interactive interpreter.
We're not talking about subjective value-feelings here; we're talking about intentional manipulation by a sleak advertising campaign that turns people into drones who really do believe that there is something magical in a Mac that other computers don't have.
Tell me, what is the marginal utility of that special Mac aura?
You've been had my friend.
I can see how this would be related to the Macbook.
Always proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
Long story short, the least expensive Windows laptop he found comparable to the $1400 MacBook was an $820 Dell, making the Mac Tax a whole 70% on top of the price-conscious buyer's choice in the Windows world.
I'm still using a Macbook that's about seven years old now. It works fine and runs Tiger.
Will that $820 Dell even be running seven years form now, much less anything close to the latest Windows?
Suddenly that "70% Tax" doesn't seem like such a bad bargain when you otherwise have to keep buying new laptops every few years...
And that's also why you'd get a better quality Windows laptop if you were smart, BTW.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It's funny how every time the subject of Mac vs. PC comes up, Mac supporters somehow manage to mention the fact that their computers are "elegant," "sleek," or bring up the little light on the outside. I have two computers, desktop and laptop, both faster than this new Mac and I paid less than the cost of the MacBook for the both of them. They are uglier than hell, and you know what? I don't care! A computer is about the software and usage you get out of it - who cares how it looks! The closest I get to being amused or pleased with the appearance of any computer I've had is the ridiculous case I've got for my desktop - it's an old Intergraph machine's case, and I was very amused to learn that the machine it originally housed cost $3,300 in 1998, and bragged in advertisements about its 32mb graphics card...
No Firewire, so I'm not buying it....What are some good alternatives?
Macbook Pro. That was easy.
What do you really need Firewire for, if you are otherwise OK with a Macbook?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sure, if you go on a strict - same spec, same dimensions, same weight, etc. - comparison, then the Apple's aren't badly priced in relation to Windows PCs.
But with Windows, you have a choice. You decide what features are important to you, what you compromise to get a better deal.
If I want a workhorse laptop, where portability really is secondary, I can get much better machines for far less in the Windows world. Often, to get the one or two features I really care about with Apple, it means buying the most expensive machines they do, with a bunch of stuff I don't care about.
Although I admire the design of Apple equipment, for the most part I have no need for it or desire to pay a premium because of it.
(The one exception is the standard MacBook, which makes a fantastic machine where portability is a primary concern.)
The thing which I find annoying with all these analysis is that they never, ever compare battery life, which to me is the singulary most important spec of a highly portable laptop (10-13 inches or so, above that is portable (14-17), below that is netbooks (7-9)).
The cheapest MacBook/iBook has, from at least 2005 (as long as I've checked out the market) been in the top cathegory for battery life in it's priceclass, and, they don't even lie that much with how long time they can actually be used responsibly.
Also, they are pretty much noiceless and doesn' generate extreme hot spots like many laptops do, making them more comfortable to use in your lap.
Comparing apples to apples (no pun intended) only reveals a fraction of the mac tax.
The simple fact is that any one apple product is only ideal for a very small segment of the market.
The best way to put a dollar figure on the mac tax is to just subtract the price of the next model down, because everything in between is available to PC buyers.
Further, there are some parts of the tax that can't really be expressed in dollars. Mac laptops are not compatible with essentially all projectors installed in the field without a fragile and easily losable adaptor that must be purchased separately. They tend to lack useful features like SD card readers in place of frivolous ones like firewire. There's no longer an option for a matte lcd, so they can only be used in a darkened room.
"As before, Im not going to weight the importance of the categories."
So, Lenovo wins on CPU, Hard disk, display AND Graphics. As FAr as I'm concerned that seems like a big win for lenovo, whereas the author puts equal weight on thickness colour, and "Environmental impact"- like there isn't a single manufacturer that won't lie and make unsubstantiated claims about it.
The point iI'm making, is with such a biased subject, leaving massive holes like that is just going to make the whole article pointless for most people, because you can still use so many arguements outside what's been investigated.
Making a 1 on 1 specs comparison between Mac and PC is unfair in my opinion.
Once yo install Vista and anti virus software, the PC is easily outperformed by a Mac with the same specs.
If instead you choose XP, you get the usual speed bumps, like when you disconnect the ethernet cable and the OS is attempting to use the connection. Not to mention the AV software which is still there.
Add a virus that you could get through a pendrive to the mix, and the performance difference grows more.
Don't want to sound like a Mac fanboi, but I've been using both for quite some time now, and I'm always surprised by how much the OS and software you run can influence your overall experience.
diegoT
Microsoft's been pushing this new and previously unknown use of the term. And it's annoying.
For years the "Mac Tax" has been the roughly 40% price premium that you generally pay to get Apple typically anemic hardware. It's what goes to pay for the operating system and other software that's the real value for Mac users... the hardware is pretty but not really all that good.
Now Microsoft's started pushing this new and poisonous meaning. Screw them and the horse they rode in on.
The Thinkpad has pretty much always had the best keyboard in a laptop, ever since Toshiba quit putting full-sized keys in their Satellites. Apple's keyboards have never been great, but they peaked with the Extended II keyboard just before Jobs came back and since the iMac and blue-and-white G3 Apple's keyboards have been downright horrible, to the point where I have to use an external keyboard with my Macbook Pro to avoid physical pain.
And Apple's passive-aggressive refusal to just put two goddam buttons on their mice and trackpads is worth about a million points against them.
Advantage Lenovo.
Seriously, how many categories did he need? I guess he wanted ads.
The problem is, that for the target market it is horribly overpriced. This guy had to go out of his way to ignore all the similarly TARGETED machines that you can find in your Sunday circular for $500 to $800. Some of them even have discreet graphics at that price.
Better yet, everyone knows Dell is always on sale. You can find deals on any laptop maker other than Apple.
The real Mac tax is found when comparing targeted audience. In other words, the people who would love to have a laptop for light work. This the audience Apple misses completely by pricing themselves out of consideration.
I could probably find half a dozen laptops that would serve just as well, if not with more features, but they wouldn't look cool.
(fwiw I own an iMac, 2nd gen iPod, and 2nd gen Touch, and am awaiting the next gen iMac to come out)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Why? Because it reveals the ridiculous overpricing of Apple hardware? Yes, how terribly unfair.
What if I install XP SP3, or Linux? Or hey, what if I get it to run OS X? It'd still be cheaper than the Mac with the same spec!
On top of that you can get a Thinkpad that's as good match with the Macbook than the one they picked... and still stay under $1000.
That doesn't mean Macs are overpriced. It just means that Apple's charging a hidden premium for OS X.
Whether that premium is worth it is up to you. But don't pretend it's not there.
I have to say, I heard the term "Mac tax" years ago. It's been around for a long time, I'm afraid.
Um, yes, that's what I said:
Do Mac's also have something like Calc installed? Does it have the cool scientific view?
Winkey shortcut mapping for 64bit windows. WinKeyPlus
Even if I could buy a PC at $300-$400 less than a MacBook, even with all the features (or a little more), I won't get what I really want: A computer with OSX, UNIX, and able to run anything on the planet. You can call that a tax if you like.
If I didn't have absolutely NOTHING to do, I wouldn't be here.
Hee hee, I have one of thoose Leenuks.
I own a Mac, and therefore I'm cool.
Has anyone checked the price of Apple machines seen over several years? Try to sell a cheap PC notebook after a few years and do the same with a MacBook. You will see that there may be a "Mac tax" but it also applies to used machines.
And I've seen many people being cheap with their notebooks and really regretting it very soon. Paying a bit more hurts only once but using a crappy notebook hurts every day.
I wonder how the Macbook Pro ($2000) would do in a similar "comparison". I wonder how far he would have to stretch that comparison to come to a conclusion that the prices are somewhat comparable...
And let's not even mention the 2.53 Ghz version or the 17" one... $2500 and $2700 respectively...
Quite frankly, I love Apple products, they ARE expensive, but their design is just incredible and Mac OS X just rules compared to the _proprietary_ alternative.
I'm sorry but comparing Apple to other manufacturers laptops just based on specs is completely stupid, the real added value of Apple lays in its OS and its design. If, to you, both of these make up for the added premium, then it's a good purchase, if they don't (like me), then it's a bad one.
Buying Apple is a matter of personal preference, it's neither stupid nor intelligent...
I have read through a whole lot of responses, and it seems that a whole lot of people here just do not know the Apple MacBook.
I bought one last year for my wife, because she was tired to be dependent upon me for her computing needs. I do use Linux, I do not want to touch Windows with a ten-foot pole if I can avoid it.
Price of the Mac : 1000EUR. Yes, I know you can get cheaper laptops, but then you are stuck with Windows, or I have to reinstall Linux, which I wanted to avoid (btw. my first laptop from 1999 also cost 999EUR, with 32M RAM, and a 233MHz Pentium II processor, so I don't consider 1000EUR for a MacBook expensive).
Value of the Mac : priceless. I haven't had to explain anything to my wife, and the photo software that comes standard with the system is the best I have ever seen. I never get any whining about why something does not work. My 4 year old daughter can log in without password and knows how to find her way with Firefox.
Did I do some customisation ? Not much. I added NeoOffice and Firefox, and for myself ports and MzScheme.
With a Windows system, you would have to buy all the software you needed, or pirate it.
Amen brother! Preach it to the choir, 'cuz the unconverted just don't understand. Poor lost souls.
Unlike, I suspect, the person in the article, I actually HAVE done a spec-by-spec comparison of PC and Mac laptops. In the best of scenarios, the Macbooks carry a $200 premium, and this was BEFORE the new models came out with hiked pricing. As you look at higher-end models the premium increases significantly; the MBP is easily far more overpriced than the standard Macbook.
I did this with no malice toward Apple, because the truth is, I would like to have a Macbook. They are solid machines. But I am not overly wealthy and there is no justifying the premium.
Also, the phrase "Mac tax" is not a "recent Microsoft marketing canard". It is actually a very old phrase that people have been using for years to refer to the ridiculous premiums on Macs.
I think apple will come down with the price of these higher priced notebooks after this year (January?). they previously announced that they wanted to innovate and offer unique machines even if they had to pressure margins. and now what they did was raising the macbook price - that is contradicting. I think they just want to sell the new brick stuff to people who don't care about money and then sell to the rest of us who simply think its too much money. we will see if the ongoing global economy slowdown shows in the real economy already this Christmas so that apple will be forced to lower prices.
The point of the article is that macs aren't overpriced.
I'm not convinced. While the article does tally with my experience when shopping around for a laptop, I had a student discount on the MacBook which made me go for it. And it was the last generation. I'm not sure if this still holds as PC laptops have gotten much cheaper in the last 6 months.
Also, it was in the UK where Macs are priced similarly in real terms to the States and PCs are twice as expensive ("strong currency tax" anyone?).
All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
I did my own comparisons, and really, I see the Mac tax.
I have a HP Pavilion DV6000, comes with pretty much everything. I bought it a few months ago for £400 (GBP). A Mac Mini costs £399 (GBP).
This laptop has dedicated RAM for graphic card (GeForce 8400M GS - runs all my games just fine, with excellent quality) usage, 2GB RAM, sdcard reader, firewire, A/G/B wireless, DVD burner, HDMI, three USB ports, VGA, modem, ethernet, video out, webcam, microphone...
I use this machine as my mobile gaming machine (it works great) and work stuff (software development, office work), home stuff (movie editing etc). The only disadvantage with it, is that it each core has 1.66GHz, while on the Mac Mini has 1.83GHz. That said, I couldn't use the Mac Mini for decent gaming, or for the majority of the stuff I use this laptop for without significant performance costs, lack of hardware options etc.
That's just the Mini, the cheapest laptop from Apple is the MacBook is £719.00 (GBP), which has Intel GMA graphics, no dedicated graphic card RAM, only 1GB RAM.
Sorry, I'm not convinced Apple systems are on par with PCs for their cost.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
maybe you don't want to but you do ;p
im getting annoyances in osx. im getting annoyances in xp. in vista too.
up to now, i dont think anyone can say any os is close to "good".
As long as you get into annoyances. Like stuff freezing for a few seconds, etc. (this happens in osx as well as windows..)
That's hot. I'm going to go think about Barack Obama while I finger my asshole and jack it. Then I'll go sign up some non existent voters.
I always assumed that "windows tax" was also a reference to the tax on windows in 17th-19th century Britain, imaginatively called the "window tax". Perhaps it is just coincidental though.
Linux unfortunately seems to have many issues with the hardware on Macs actually.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
The universities I visit in the UK -- I have not seen a single Mac in them.
Your lack of correct grammatical usage does not lead me to believe that the education in your university is that great.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Calculator.app
I am fed up reading that kind'o'crap !!!
So don't install Vista. I call bullshit on anti-virus slowing down the machine a lot. I have a Macbook Pro and I'm never amazed by the speed, rather the lack of speed. Though I'm used to having desktops with bigger and faster HDDs.
Safari is the software which really craps on my experience. And the fact that I still haven't bought more memory yet since I wanted to send this one back.
Hmmm. I just bought a Lenovo T500 for my wife - it cost CAN$1550 or thereabouts. Because she wanted a 15.4" LCD, the equivalent Mac was the MacBook Pro, which starts at CAN$2100. Definitely still a premium for buying Macs.
Hmm, my experiences...
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
The question is not whether comparable PCs cost as much as the Mac.
The question is, does a comparable Mac even exist for a cheap PC.
I can get a usable brand new desktop system unit for about AU$500-600. The Mac Mini, which is less powerful than these, costs about AU$850 for the simplest configuration, and more than AU$1000 for anything decent by way of hard disk space, RAM, and GHz.
Rolls Royces may be wonderful value for money, for all I know. But I don't *need* anything that expensive (and cannot afford it). Same with Macs. They are too expensive when I can get a good enough PC for a much lower price.
I am anarch of all I survey.
If everyone adopted the attitude you have, then yes, the debate would likely die down. It would simply be a matter of whether you value style and reliability above price and flexibility. I leave 'usability' off of the table because there's no clear-cut winner.
However, it's the Mac users who are the ones who are making the matter personal. Always have been. Ever since I can remember, Mac users have been the protagonists, acting as if they were superior to PC owners.
And if you doubt that, have you [somehow?] not seen the Mac ads portraying Mac owners as cool, and PC owners as nerds? Who's trying to make who feel bad about their purchase?
PC owners have been on the defensive, just wanting to be left alone to enjoy their machines, and generally only biting back when attacked.
it's STILL a shitty mac
you lack the correct common sense to make me believe your horizon stretches further than the english speaking part of the world.
also, challenging somebody's grammar in a discussion makes your point what? valid?
i dont think so.
maybe you dont even study anything technical, which would explains a lot.
I got a Lenovo (15" screen, 1 gb RAM, 120 gb drive, Intel 2GHz ) for $400 that does everything that I need. Where's the Apple equivalent?
I speak four Slavic languages, English and I can get by in quite a few other languages.
You still aren't using things like proper punctuation, capitalization which is common to the majority of in-use languages.
I am pointing out that any properly educated person (as you claim your university's students tend to be) would not be doing what you are doing.
Indeed!
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
'... but look, she's got a new hat!'
fucking mac fanbois.
Of course I had to look. But I got a X-Leela header on the first try, not Fry or Bender:
"X-Leela: This is by a wide margin the least likely thing that has ever happened."
I did qualify it quite a lot...
You did well to get that machine for £400. The only decent PC I've seen on sale in that price range is a refurb from the college.
All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
After using half Windows and half Mac for 6 months last year, I switched totally to the Mac about 6 months ago. Here's what I've concluded:
1) OSX is not very fast. I think it's bloated. I've got a ridiculous amount of processing power on this Mac Pro, but it just doesn't move that fast.
2) XP is not very fast. I know it's bloated.
So what's the difference?
OSX is still as slow on my MacBook as it was the day I bought it. I've already formatted my XP Boot Camp gaming partition once this year to get my speed back.
The big problem with Windows is that it gets slower as you go. I haven't noticed that at all with the Mac, even as I wantonly install and uninstall programs. I used to be terrified of what new programs would do to my XP machine. I just haven't had that problem with OSX. Plus, I have access to lots of cool things developed for UNIX that don't seem to slow anything down, stay out of my way, and Just Work.
If you agreed and said "Windows is slow" you would be marked insightful. Don't you value your slashdot karma???
Anyway, Apple sucks so hard that all they can do is try to disparage Windows in their commercials and sing pretty songs instead of pitching their actual product.
Some fields of science require UNIX for serious work. Some branches of art and design require professional software. Some business interactions require the ability to open Windows software files or connection with Internet Explorer. Some of us like to play games, watch online video, organize our photos, and dabble in video production.
I do all of those. I also want a single computer that I can use at home, work, or travel reliably and with minimal distraction. That's why I have a MacBook Pro plus Parallels and Windows XP.
Well as someone who has been awaiting the Apple release to finally replace an aging Toshiba I can say that this and all of the folks who try to say the same thing are not right.
I went to the Apple store and checked out the new Macbooks the day after they were announced. It was OK, the trackpad wasn't very good and certainly seemed like a 1.0 product. The "brick" chassis was OK but nothing super strong, the palm area flexed just as much as my old Toshiba. and then came the processor/HDD issue: to get a reasonable CPU and HDD I had to bump up $200 to the $1499 (with edu discount) model. Oh, and I had to buy the displayport adapter to make it useful for an extra $30.
So I waited and found an Asus X83VM for $899. It has a C2D8400, 4GB RAM, 320GB HDD, DVDR w/lightscribe, 14.1" widescreen, HDMI, ESATA, 5 USB ports, and most amazingly an Nvidia 9600M with 1GB RAM!
And in fact there were a few Sonys and Toshibas which easily trounced or matched the Macbook starting at $599 right next to it.
This idea that Macbooks are so evenly priced and just "seem" expensive is garbage.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
you might not understand this, but sometimes, people omit things like punctuation and capitalization by choice. if you think its smart of yourself to have pointed this out, good for you.
....When they are first launched. The issue is that over time Apple doesn't change the price on their laptops ever, as far as i know. Meanwhile pc manufacturers are constantly creating new laptops with the latest hardware at much lower price points.
You should try Comet - I find most computers (not accessories) quite cheap there.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
are arbitrary and often proprietary notions regarding the engineering of a product. more often they are just poor excuses for design, built to lock consumers into your product at the expense of everyones time, energy, and sanity.
they can also be marketing gimmicks that infiltrated engineering via a useless first-line manager with no more product engineering insight than "it needs to be wireless."
this kind of "engineering" isnt new. microsoft has been engineering things to standards that dont exist for around a decade. the only difference is windows ME didnt come with some shitcock in a turtleneck banging the invincible OS drum and treating me like i was a six year old with nothing better to do with my time than swoon over magnetic power cords..
Good people go to bed earlier.
Maybe he meant iBook. Or Powerbook. I have a Macbook Pro that if you sent back in time could be mistaken for a Powerbook G4 (aside from the label, ports, and trackpad details).
I noticed two things were overlooked in the review, for the macbook anyway:
1) backlit keyboard (/option)
2) HDMI adapters available for video port
Anyone spot other points overlooked in the review for other models?
I personally am not interested in HDMI, but the backlit keyboard is one of my favorite features of my MBP.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
And it is very common properly educated people have a tendency to not choose to do so, even when heavily fatigued or simply unmotivated.
No, I don't feel smart for pointing out your incorrect use of grammar.
I have far bigger accomplishments I can rely on for feeling 'smart'. But despite that, I do not feel that smart right now since, I am continuing this pointless banter.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
and what exactly makes you think you don't need any kind of Anti-Virus on a Mac?
Maybe the hardware comparison would be easier if Mac actually allowed their product to be installed on other machines.
so... let me recap this whole thing. i stated an experience of mine related to the topic. you actually didnt have anything valuable to add to this, so instead, you decided to doubt my credibility by pointing out grammar mistakes to elevate your self-esteem?
Once yo install Vista and anti virus software, the PC is easily outperformed by a Mac with the same specs. ...unless you want to play new games, or use any other off-the-shelf software instead of (sadly) having to buy Mac software online or at an urban Apple Store somewhere.
I'm a Mac fan myself, but the chronic inability to buy software at retail grates after a while. (Fortunately, I'm computer-literate enough to find almost everything I want in downloadable formats.)
You're surprised that OS and software influence overall experience?
Is the MacBook expensive?
It costs $1299. That's a lot, so yes, it is expensive.
Any more questions?
No offense or anything but I've never been really impressed with Apple's design regardless of price. It looks far too plain for my tastes and being common, not as unique as it once had been. For design, I actually admire some of Asus's high end models although their use of leather may be overkill. Still even with style it's very functional, I still own a 3 year old Asus Z33aE ultralight model and the thing is still solid as a rock with some insane battery life compared to modern Core Duos. Sadly if you like MacOSX, you're basically stuck with one design. Innovative but limiting. I guess that's why a lot of PC fans don't always admire Macs so much.
3 + 9 = 12
4 * 77 = 308
Yeah, doing math on the new MacBook is good.
Well. You don't /need/ AV if you're a smart internet user. I used XP for around 3 years, had AV. Never detected anything... (not the same as not having anything... but meh).
Used Vista for 6 months (late adopter, post SP-1 so your bullshit about performance is ... well, bullshit) with Avast, still never had anything... after reinstalling Vista (new hard drive) I just decided screw AV. I'm a smart user, and know how to avoid AV. Just because Macs aren't vulnerable to the same things, doesn't mean they aren't vulnerable. A Mac user who clicks on files like NOT-A-DANGEROUSFILE.DOC.EXE.SH.BAT.SH is just as likely to run into trouble as a similar windows users.
Incorrect, you claimed something and I deemed it suspicious because of how you 'write'.
I also mentioned how I did not observe the same phenomenon at the universities I visited.
Incorrect, reread my previous post again. I have no need or interest to do so for self-esteem purposes.
I am just simply, skeptical about your claims for the reasons I have given.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Yes, this will be a vehicle metaphor...
Really people, if you go to buy a car, you can easily get a cheap one with the same "specs" as an expensive one. The question is, do you want that inexpensive Hyundai, or do you want the quality engineering of of that BMW?
Sure the Hyundai costs less. Sure it has some comparable specs to the BMW. But with the BMW you get quality engineering, innovative design, and the knowledge that your car will retain some retail value after 5 years, and will most likely run a lot longer.
Mac compared to Dell/Lenovo/HP is like comparing a german engineered car to a Ford or GM.
Try selling your $700 Dell in 2 years. Worthless. Your Mac Air will probably be in demand for twice as long.
Here we go again. Sigh.
From Apple's Macbook mini-site:
All engineered to standards that don't even exist yet.
Even as a Mac user/developer this makes me cringe. Ewww...
There's at least two things they are referring to.
1) Snow Leopard will support OpenCL. You might say well so what, eventually my Dell will to, after all that's what Open means. True, but look at the architecture in the macs. They elimiated the Northbridge and the Bus chips. The CPU now connects directly to the GPU.
If you have ever tried to program an NVIDIA GPU for computational work you know that the slow step is shuttling the data back to the CPU. So having OpenCL with an insanley fast bus means that standard is going to actually be useful.
2) the Open HD video connector.
on the new macs, running H264 high def has dropped processor utilization from 100% to 20%, presumbaly because of the NVIDIA chip. So now streaming HD is going to be a reality and will actually exist for the mac world. And TVs that support the Open HD are becoming available.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
The $1600 mac has a high mac tax on it and at $100 more then the old mac book black it should of had a real video card with IT's OWN RAM. As With other laptops You can add a real video card for $50 - $100. Also there are $1200+ laptops with a 15" or bigger screen and / or a real video card. Also the $2000+ laptops should have 512 mb video ram at the min with 4gb of ram.
This article is obviously biased. He gave points on video output to the MacBooks based on their video card power, which is rated elsewhere. He gave points for having optical audio out, which might be nice but does not improve the audio of the device. He gave points for items he admits are personal preference. And, then he adds an item that has no bearing on the device itself to bolster the scores of the Apple device.
Let's not forget he decided that a 10% difference in price is insignificant. (100 is 10% of 1000)
The Dell was the obvious winner getting 9 points and costing 36% less than the MacBook which both scored 8 points. The Sony, which also scored 8 points costs 8% less. And, when one takes out the questionable items, the MacBooks score even worse, while the others stay the same.
In all, I end up wondering how he chose those particular wintel laptops. I am pretty certain I could find comparable laptops that are less expensive with little effort.
It is obvious he set out to write an article showing that MacBooks are not more expensive, and he did it by manipulating the test and results.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Hey AC dumbass....you dont run anti-virus on a MAC until you can show me a real virus in the wild i might be vulnerable too. Til then STFU you dont AV because Macs dont work like that.
. I love the sound of burning women and screaming rubber....
I'm curious, what version of OS X are you running? I've noticed that some things have gotten better with OS X versions, like less spinning cursor while the entire system chugs through some problems (like if you lost connection to a network drive before ejecting it). There does seem to be more bloat in the OS with each version though, I think it's marketing towards the average user more. What drives me nuts about Windows is that it is completely marketed towards the average user with all those little balloons in your taskbar and tooltips etc. and it's difficult to turn them off.* With OS X you can turn a lot of that off by command line options, but there isn't a comprehensive list of these options as far as I know.
Also, do you think the slowdown in XP is due to the registry becoming filled with outdated items? I seem to notice this using windows and I've wondered if it affects system performance.
* E.g., it once took me about 30 minutes to try and figure out how to get it to stop telling me my computer is at risk because I uninstalled the virus manager and turned off automatic updates because it's not connected to the internet. I believe that unplugging the network cable is far more secure than any software security and the machine in question was an instrument driver so didn't need any internet.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
If you're calling bullshit on anti-virus software slowing down the machine, you obviously haven't ever seen a machine with Norton Internet Security or anything with the McAfee name on it. Unfortunately, one of those two crappy, bloated suites is installed on most new PCs out of the box, and most consumers will just go ahead and buy whatever comes with the computer because they think the OEM would've put good software on; they don't realize that they're putting on software from whichever company paid the most to the OEM. Also, if Safari craps on your experience, why the hell haven't you installed Firefox? I totally agree that Safari sucks, but Internet Exploder sucks, too. Get a real browser...
I'm using all of my mod points to mod ancient memes down. Please join me.
The bundled Microsoft Windows license, which is still way too difficult to shake loose, is a significant "Microsoft tax." In fact, it's the single most expensive component in most PCs. As the price of other PC components continues to fall, the Microsoft tax is becoming more onerous as a greater share of the cost structure, causing consumers and vendors to rebel increasingly. The tax is particularly acute with netbooks, so Linux is gaining a significant foothold in that market segment.
Microsoft's share price has been stagnant for a long time, and the company has been reluctant to reduce their software pricing. (Actually, their prices keep increasing, and the "anti-piracy" features are growing increasingly annoying to everyone.) This is not a sustainable business model. I think some people at Microsoft sense this and are trying to find various solutions, including more Google-like delivery models and increased segmentation. The explosion in the number of Windows flavors is one example of increased segmentation, juicing the balance sheet near-term but exacerbating the long-term problems. Apple continues to "skim the cream" off the top of the PC market, gaining share each quarter, and Linux netbooks are a growing threat on the low end. Apple now has a $999 MacBook which will sell huge numbers, so they're doing some more segmentation, too. Devices like the iPhone/iPod touch and Google's Android platform are raising questions about the very need for PCs. Open Office and its cousins, like Lotus Symphony and NeoOffice, are disrupting the Microsoft Office franchise. It's a good time for Microsoft to be paranoid.
Did anyone still believe that? It's easy to do this comparison, and Macs have almost always been similarly priced to comparable alternatives.
Of course some of their items are still overpriced, such as the monitors.
If you have a house like mine where kids of all ages pound away at the machine, with spreadsheets, IM, music, and gaming, the Mac wins hands down. I am the person who gets the call when "the computer won't print" or "the computer is hung" in my house. Since migrating from XP to OSX, I've saved the extra money for the Mac in time not spent screwing around with the system. My home machine is used 8-10 hours per day between all family members, so I've saved quite a bit of time as well. My work machine is XP, but when it dies, a Mac Mini will replace it. Yes, it cost more, but it will also probably last longer than the eMachine it replaced. I'm not a fanboy, this post is being typed on a Dell going on eight years old.
A 1:1 spec comparison is simply assinine.
The WHOLE POINT of PCs is the fact that you don't have
to be limited to the options given to you by Apple. You
can make relatively minor tweaks to the specs that make
a large difference in price while not significantly
effecting the end result.
Making cost feature tradeoffs is the core of engineering.
It's too bad that the Apple cheerleaders here whining about "engineering" don't seem to understand that.
That is why the functionally equivalent Dell is half the price.
Been there. Did that. Couldn't justify the Apple laptop. (no matter how "cool" it might be)
So, I will just have to limit myself to 2.5 Apples... '-pppp
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
You're talking about MacTax? Okay, here's how I explain it, as being an Apple user since 1 year. Since one month and an half my MacBook chassis started getting cracked because of a known issue with the chassis itself. Yesterday I went into a Genius Bar and I explained my issue and I asked for having it fixed within one day because today I had a meeting with a minister of the government and I had to show a keynote presentation. The result? MacBook fixed with new keyboard and top level chassis within 3 hours. It was still in warranty so I paid 0 â and the guy at the Genius Bar told me that even if the warranty is expired, they're free to choose whether fix it or not without charging anyone because this is a known issue. Do Asus, Acer, HP, etc do the same? I DEFINITELY do not think so. M
That Mac Tax is a real and legitimate thing. Ok, so Apple sucked it up and killed some of the margins on it's actual computing units. But that's not the tax. Here's the tax.....
AppleCare(3 yr) $249.00
Dell Warranty(3 yr) $190.00
AppleCare covers manufacturing defects, component failure NOT resulting from a drop or misuse, and NOTHING as far as cosmetics or case damage. Dell, on the other hand will repair your laptop including case damage, and some accidental damages. TAKING IT FURTHER -- the cost to replace a bottom case on a MBP (I had this done) was $600. Replacing a cracked screen on a MB (I had this done) was $805 (YES, ~80% the cost of the laptop).
Howabout a spare AC adapter?
Apple $79.00
Dell $69.00
Apple used to be $99.00, but recently pared that back. And forget about finding a third-party MagSafe compatible charger. They don't exist.
Oh that's right, and if you want to actually use your MacBook with a projector you need that $19 adapter (that you'll probably lose and buy a couple of) that doesn't come with your computer. Dell provides standard connectors on their laptops. And let's not talk about Displayport.
I could go on, but I'm done with my coffee and it's time to get actual work done.
Apple IS.
Apple IS.
It's a single company. Singular noun. IS.
If you fucking dotheads can't use the language, go back to where you came from.
asus m50vn has same specs of the new macbookpro and only a $1450 price tag!
asus m70vn is even better and still under $2000...
Thanks to gizmodo for pointing that out in here:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/10/MBP_Compare_Large.jpg
Caffeine is bad m'kay, though cheetos are succulent.
Sadly, like all non-cola soft drinks, Mountain Dew here in Canada does not have caffeine, so giving that up is not a problem... so long as I can stick with Coke and Jolt, I'll muddle through.
I've recently acquired a taste for Cheetos, though. I was avoiding them because they looked like Cheezies, which I didn't care for (especially when there are pretzels or nacho chips and salsa to be had).
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
What's a fast one? I've only ever installed AVG or Symantec.
In the general case, Apple notebooks are comparable in price to Windows notebooks for a short period of time after Apple refreshes their line. After that, comparable PC notebooks start coming down in price, but the Apples won't for some time (basically, you'll be able to get cheap refurbs once there's a new refresh, at which point, the Apples will be comparable again.)
Apple's doing something smart with their new lines. They're slowly differentiating themselves in the hardware side again. New twists on input (the new trackpad), multiple GPUs (which other manufacturers have done, but it's still pretty rare), and speed increases independent of the CPU (GPU+OpenCL in Snow Leopard) mean that it's almost impossible to compare a Macbook Pro with any given PC notebook. Now, in 3 months when they're no longer even remotely competitive on specs, the fan base can easily claim that with the ability to use the lower-power GPU, a direct feature-for-feature comparison will not be fair.
As usual the article and the commentaries ask and answer completely the wrong question.
The interesting question is NOT whether, if you take a Mac spec as your starting point, you can duplicate it for less elsewhere from another vendor. The answer is usually, no, not very much, and sometimes it costs more. Which tells us just about nothing about suitability of product or value for money.
The interesting question is whether, if you are looking for a computer, you can find a better value choice better suited to your needs from the Mac range or from other vendors ranges.
You almost always can. The reason is, the paucity of price points and specification points in the Mac range. This results in Macs being an overpriced or underfeatured choice for most people most of the time.
This leads to a simple conclusion. For most people, most of the time, the Mac product is going to be overpriced. For most people, the other vendor product is going to offer better value. Which is quite compatible with the proposition that for any given point in the Mac range, its hard or impossible to duplicate it for much less. This was however never the issue.
The Mac range is not the starting point for comparisons, any more than the Louis Vuitton range is. How one wishes people would stop pretending that it is.
Never mind that the reviewer explicitly ignores that the Dell cost $500 less. Never mind that the reviewer explicitly refuses to consider PCs with better specs than the Mac, yet are cheaper.
Here's what it boils down to: If I am patient, I can buy the PC I want for about $650 (which I did for my wife earlier this year (Dell Vostro 1500, if memory serves on the model number)), while if I am patient, I can buy the Mac I want for $1300.
Want to know why people keep saying macs are expensive? It's because macs are expensive. Many people consider them to be good values for the money due to OS X, etc., but the fact still remains, if I were to go out and buy a PC, it would set me back $650, and if I were going to go out and buy a mac, it would set me back $1300. I don't know how to make it more clear than that.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
1 on 1 specs comparison between Mac and
Dell is unfair.
Dell sells a (relatively) few $1000+ laptops, so they naturally charge much higher premiums to keep them profitable (and typically sell these to corporations that don't care if they can save hundreds by installing upgrades themselves.) So comparing Dell's low volume high margin laptops (+ some high profit updates) to apple's latest, highest volume offering, then saying look how close they are. Is a slight to the PC manufacture, and really shows how good of brand name apple has built.
Of course if a buyer is looking for every feature the Mac has, and doesn't feel comfortable cracking open a PC then absolutely the MacBook is a competitor. But lets not claim apple is not grabbing a premium over the PC market on them.
I will admit their is a heavy performance penalty on the Dell products I have bought, but I have a clean XP image that undoes this for those computers, and you can always install as stripped down of a Linux/BSD install as you want.
http://chuqui.typepad.com/chuqui_30/2008/10/camcorders-and.html
Even if I could buy a PC at $300-$400 less than a MacBook, even with all the features (or a little more), I won't get what I really want: A computer with OSX, UNIX, and able to run anything on the planet.
Windows XP + vmware and/or cygwin.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Glossy Screen = FAIL
There is a reason that orders have been placed and canceled, that the refurbished matte versions sold out the day the new ones came out.
Death to Glossy!
The fanboys drinking the Apple Kool-Aid, or the people whining about how overpriced they are. Some things never change. Can't it be as simple as if you want OSX, spend the higher amount on a Mac, if you don't care, don't buy a Mac? Why the semi-annual articles?
Indeed you notice the performance hit under Windows after some time. In regards to OS X, what I really do like is it's responsiveness. Even if it sometimes isn't exactly the fastest thing on earth, with the latest version of it I always feel it very responsive and quick to acknoledge my actions.
I recently switched my gf to Mac, she is a designer. The reason for the switch was that every time Windows slowed down for her (an average user) she couldn't install it back on her own. She was really afraid of using Macs, but fortunately, she found it easy to learn the basic concepts, and is now using it full time. I am really glad I won't need to be installing Windows again in 6 months :D
In any case, I do realize that OS X isn't perfect. It may not be the most secure sistem either. But I believe that there's no discussion that it requires less maintenance for the average user today. Today is all that matters today. If things change, I'll see other options.
diegoT
Not to step in as the Windows defender or anything, but if you clicked on the warning that you're not protected there's a button right there that says "Change How Windows Notifies Me"
I'm not saying it's your fault, but no one can say it's Windows' fault.
I don't disagree with your points. But you do have to admit that the comparison doesn't make sense also because you can't compare Windows and OS X as being the same thing.
I was talking with the idea of an average user in mind, someone that won't be tweaking his system. I really do think that there's more you're paying for than just the hardware. And I'm saying this because I really see the difference between maintaining a PC and a Mac for people that don't know much about PCs.
diegoT
If anyone cared enough to write Bansai Buddy for Macs do you think your average college freshman with a Mac is any better than your average college freshman with a PC about not doing whatever it takes to install it?
User stupidity trumps almost all security, and there's no shortage of it on either side.
The scanner requires you to swipe your finger across the scanner. Let me know how you do pulling finger prints off of a 1mm bar that has had their finger swiped across it.
Why, just keep yourself awake by playing with your man-boobs of course. I'm too lazy to find the link (playing with my moobs of course) to find a link to the study that came out recently linking drinking over three or so cups of coffee a day with developing one's own mamaries.
Read the fine followups before posting more insinuendo.
The two buttons that matter for normal use are left-click and right-click. The rest of the buttons are lagniappes. The Mighty Mouse uses a single button plus a capacitance sensor to fake right-click by clicking without anything touching the left side of the mouse. If you use the index finger for both left and right click that works fine, but if you normally rest both the index and middle fingers on the mouse and click one or the other it's completely useless.
I've had a "mighty mouse" and it drove me "batfink".
Apple only ships single-button pointing devices, with a variety of subterfuges to simulate the right button. There is no ignorance or deception on my part, the only deception is the pretense that subsidiary buttons or stupid tricks with touch sensors are an adequate replacement for two standard buttons.
The baseline cost for a Mac Desktop from the online Apple store looks pretty good, but try adding some RAM. Upgrading from the baseline 2GB of 800MHZ FB-DIMMs to 4GB will cost you $500. You can buy 2x2GB of mushkin FB-DIMMs (800 mhz, cas latency of 5, heat spreaders, fully compatible) from newegg.com and pop them in your mac for a total of 6GB of RAM for only $130.
Upgrading your hard drive from 320GB to 1TB at the apple store will cost you $300. You can add a whole new 1TB hard drive on top of the existing drive for $130 at newegg.
If it's not a Mac Tax then perhaps it's an Apple Tax. It's definitely an Ignorance Tax.
He forgot to add that you can't get a chip in a laptop that can run Windows Vista at a comparable speed that you can run Mac OS X on that MacBook.
All these techie blogs... listen, the average Mac consumer is not even reading your blog, gotcha? Yeah, a number of programmers use Macs but the average user is absolutely not into computers. Mac computers are their own niche segment and noone else competes there. Saw those "I am a Mac and I am a PC" ads? The most important message is not that the PC is inferior but that these are separate markets.
What do you people do to your windows installations? The last time I installed windows for my own use it was a wipe over a two year old install. I noticed a nice speedup in boot time until I had all the programs I use installed, after that it was back to normal. No difference in min or max framerates in any games either.
The point is that you can't get a cheap Apple machine at all. Don't care about the features since you're buying it for your grandmother so she can check email? Price is more important than performance? Well, Apple is useless for you, since they have such a large price premium for the basic model.
It's not that they're priced more than an equivalent machine. It's that Apple's idea of a low priced machine is astronomcially more expensive than any other manufacturer's idea of a low priced machine.
And if you install Linux your PC will far outperform the Mac. Seriously, we put Linux on my girlfriend's Macbook, it's amazing how much faster it runs. She's got XP on there too, and yea, from what I've seen, that one isn't much better than OSX. Maybe a bit, but it was a brand new install.
I have owned and used Apple products since 1979; long before using a Mac or other Apple product was considered "Hip." In my own case, I use what I like, whether everyone else agrees with me or not.
To me, this so-called "Mac Tax" isn't about "looking cool," its about having something that works the way you want it to, when you want it to. This is exactly the opposite of the storied "Windows Tax" of having to constantly fiddle with the OS to keep it running smoothly.
Maybe I'm more of a geek than some; but then, I met my SO online in a geek chat area and married her five years later. I'm happy with my choices and wouldn't change them now for anything.
I say, go with what works for you; but take your time to make informed choices. Don't pay attention to the emotional rants of the Zealots, no matter which side of the fence they're on.
Milling a laptop case out of a brick of aluminum produces a lot of waste. The energy required to recycle the aluminum is low compared to the energy used to produce new material. However, after you factor in transporting and handling of the waste to a recycling facility is it still more eco-friendly than case manufacturing processes?
It's just a thought that came to mind while reading the article and I would love to hear what others think.
This is just another case of Move Along - Nothing to See Here.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The article uses the phrase "Mac tax," which one commenter points out is a recent Microsoft marketing canard.
Gotcha!!
Neither was I... The author gave the MB "advantage" in 13 categories, the Dell in 9, and parity in 6. The Dell was also "almost $500 cheaper" than the MB. Categories that the MB had "advantage" in that could be affected by upgrades within that range: CPU, Battery, Bundled Media Software, and that's on the purely objective things, rather than some categories that are entirely subjective, like "aesthetics", where he gives the MB the point but "wouldn't be surprised if you actually preferred another", or the "intuitive trackpad" of the Mac. Then there's some strange ones, where he gives the Mac the advantage for DisplayPort, despite needing an extra $30 or $100 investment to use. Really still trying to process how the output of that all was to say that the Mac isn't a little overpriced.
Isn't that Apple in a nutshell ?
A mac is a better fit for anything technical than a windows PC any day, but why would someone intelligent enough to do technical stuff bother with paying so much for what can be had for free ? BSD / Linux do everything technical that Mac can do (and more - since fink etc. usually supply outdated GNU packages), and do it for a much lower price point.
WARNING!!! ANECDOTAL!!!
I was in Belize with my family this summer, and we took my daughter's MacBook and my wife's ThinkPad. After dinner, we would hang out near the pool connecting to the hotel's WiFi. The MacBook would connect within seconds, the ThinkPad took several minutes to think about it and would maybe connect w/o a reboot, that after taking several minutes to come out of its moon icon (the MacBook, of course, was instant-on).
When we were leaving, I got stopped and searched by security. I waved my wife, son, and daughter on to get on the plane while the inspector opened my bag and told me to turn on the ThinkPad. My wife had turned it off. It took literally 15 minutes for me to turn it on and shut it down. My wife was panicking on the plane thinking I was being detained.
CONCLUSION: I just got my wife the new MacBook...
Twelve-and-three-quarter inches. Unyielding. This wand belonged to Bellatrix Lestrange.
I purchased a MacBook over the summer, and it was more expensive than equivalent PCs. You know what? I didn't care. I've had Macs and PCs for years, and I wanted a Mac. I didn't want my wife accidentally installing software. I didn't want to worry about whether the laptop would recognize my old network printer. And, most importantly, I wanted iLife.
I bought a digital camera that is pretty well reviewed, but the included PC software sucks. However, the camera shows up in iMovie. No problems, no gimmicks, no concessions. Say what you will, Macs are about the OS, and OS X is a superior product. It is superior to any offerings from Microsoft, and Linux does not offer the same end user experience. I know, there are some nice installations of Linux, but the experience will be different.
What I really think is that many of the people who blast Macs want to use OS X, but want to pay less for the hardware. Because that can't happen, they blast the specs. Specs are only part of the equation. Compare your average V8 pickup truck to a Volvo station wagon. Sure you can find LOTS of pickup trucks which cost much less with much more horsepower, but the user experience is fundamentally different.
Make love, not reality television.
(Note: I'm from the US)
In the Queen's English, companies are treated as a plurality. Just because we Americans bastardized it doesn't mean that everyone who uses it the proper way is wrong.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
Dang, have to post anon cause I've been moderating here. (Not just pro-mac anti-ms mind you..;P.. )
Ok, always assume you are as stupid/as smart as the general masses. There has to be a reason for the "stupid behaviour" you witnessed. Let's see if you can justify the same stupid desission.
What was the main difference between the old and new macs? The architecture. How did the MacOS handle INtel/PPC compatibility? Through the Rosetta Stone technology which translated instructions PPC <--> Intel. Were the PRO APPS (tm), like CS2 suite, translated/optimized for Intel? No. Did this RS translation give a performance hit? Yes. Then what hardware was best suited for performance and efficiency for the PRO USERS (tm)? __ <- fill in blank. Profit!
And the oblig URL: http://photoshopnews.com/2006/01/20/editorial-should-the-macbook-pro-have-waited-for-photoshop/
1) OSX is not very fast. I think it's bloated. I've got a ridiculous amount of processing power on this Mac Pro, but it just doesn't move that fast.
My experiences largely mirror yours, though I never used Windows much and switched to the Mac in 2002 with a slow iBook G3.
Every version of OS X has gotten snappier and more responsive, but there must be some overhead in there somewhere, because at some point (Tiger for the G3) the OS no longer supports the old hardware.
Also, I have a dual G5 2.0 at work and a quad Pro 2.66 at home. The G5 is running Leopard, Pro is running Tiger. I think Leopard is significantly slower and less pleasant to work with than Tiger. I won't upgrade the Pro until Snow Leopard comes out.
So maybe some of your bloat/slowness you see on your Mac Pro is due to Leopard? I'm always surprised at how much slower the G5 is than the Pro; it feels like less than half speed in normal operations, when it really shouldn't be much slower at all for single threaded type apps. The G5 has 2.5G of ram and the Pro has 6, but even when the Pro was at 1G it felt faster than the G5.
I had a buddy who converted his $500 souped up Dell into a Hackintosh. He had powerful hardware powered by OS X. He gave it up after couple months because he wanted the cool factor of actually hacking away on a Macbook instead of a Dell.
I disagree with your major points, that a spec comparison is asinine and that the point of PCs is to not be limited to the options Apple gives you.
I think the point of PCs is to primarily run Windows and insert-your-favorite Windows software - or - to run Linux.
A 1-1 spec comparison isn't asinine if one's point is to run OS X and wants to know if the hardware is a ripoff.
I do think that you've understated a major point - one has fewer configuration options for an OS X box than a Windows or Linux box. Ultimately, as a data point of one, I'm ok personally with the fewer options, and ok, goodie for me (no sarcasm intended, just might as well say it - the shoe fits, etc.).
But fewer options, while making the purchase possibly easier for many new to OS X, might very well be limiting entry to the OS X world. At the same time, having locked options - and lots of them - adds to sustainability and longer-term support. I have two very functional 7+ year old Macs running Tiger and I'm typing this on one of them. For whatever anecdotal reason, that's longer service than I've gotten from PC boxes - maybe because I'm always saving a buck or two when I buy one of those. No proof implied or believed, just putting it out there.
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
Okay, seriously? This is bullshit. Know what I did for comparison?
1. Hop on Newegg.
2. Look up "Geforce 9600M" (the chip that comes in the Macbook Pro!).
3. Sort by "lowest price".
What do I get? An HP laptop that's $1100. What's it come with?
- 17 inch screen
- 2 GHZ Core 2 Duo, Geforce 9600M (surprise?)
- 512 megs dedicated to the Geforce (The same amount in the nicer $2500 Macbook pro)
- 4 gigs of RAM
- Bluray Drive that burns DVD's
- Bluetooth (just noted, as many notebooks don't have it built-in)
- 320GB hard drive, multi-card reader, 4 USB ports, real HDMI out, VGA out.
- Built-in camera (just in case someone brings it up)
- Wireless N, modem for those times you get stuck in a crappy motel
So for $200 less than the new Macbook, we've got a computer that rivals the nicer Macbook pro in everything but CPU speed. Yes, the Apple tax is fucking high. No, comparing a Mac to the most overpriced piece of shit (as far as Sony is concerned, anyway) notebooks on the market isn't a COMPARISON. It's a RATIONALIZATION.
Hell, if that Mac usb dongle was available as a PCMCIA card, I'd pick that fucker up with a copy of Leopard right now and still come out on top to an absurd degree. :: drops mic ::
Yep, I got a MacBook Pro for the hardware. It's got a webcam, wireless, all the ports I need, it's got a nice CPU and video hardware, it's quiet, and I like the extras such as illuminated keyboard, multi-touch trackpad. Pieces don't just come off the laptop, it has a good build and looks nice, it's not heavy. The warranty and AppleCare options are nice. And I run Linux as my main OS.
Twinstiq, game news
Things like this happen when you use an expert operating system such as Windows while not having the qualification (education, intelligence, etc.) to do so. I can assure you that my Thinkpad can connect to any WLAN in less than a minute from a cold start or a mere seconds if already running. Perhaps you should remove some of the crap running on your Thinkpad.
Maximum PC did this MUCH better.
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/can_apples_best_topple_pc_competition
I was always convinced of the Mac tax on their laptops.
Then I owned one. I didn't want it at first. I didn't lust after it.
Now I am convinced that there is no Mac tax. I happen to know that I'm immune to the idea that I'm a fanboi suffering from post-purchase justification. I just know that once you own one, if you had the Mac tax issue, you lose it. Quickly. Completely. Forever.
Then your next laptop will be a Mac. And you'll recommend them. And you'll probably try to explain something in a post that might not be easily explained.
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
>>Making a 1 on 1 specs comparison between Mac and PC is unfair in my opinion.
>Why? Because it reveals the ridiculous overpricing of Apple hardware? Yes, how terribly unfair.
Better read that article again.
"You're getting brutal, Sark. Brutal and needlessly sadistic."
"Thank you, Master Control"
-Sark and the MCP
So don't use Norton or McAfee then. What's wrong with Avira which is free? Or Kaspersky or Nod32?
I have both Firefox and Opera to, but whatever browser I start up it will load up 100+ tabs, and sometimes I clean them out, most so in Safari since it's slow as shit with lots of tabs. But then I want a browser without all that loading I just take the one with least tabs / which I used latest, which often become Safari, and well, back to square one.
My firefox have over 500 tabs, so there ..
Also since I own a mac sometimes I use an application, such as "toast" to burn a DVD or similar, and once I used the disc info, there was this button for more info, so I clicked it, not realising it would open up Safari and show a webpage. For some retarded reason OS X don't inform you that the action will result in your browser starting ...
Avira (free versions available, founds lots of viruses), Kaspersky (cost money, former champion) and NOD32 (also cost money, been popular for ages, probably always a decent alternative.)
No, if I did I would never comment in mac / OS X stories because even if I really wanted to get the OS earlier and dislike Windows for no obvious reason nowadays since the DOS/Win3.11 days when I used my Amiga I do say what I belive and don't care about the retarded moderators. But then when it comes to mac stories some people just can't handle the truth so they always mod me troll/flamebait/overrated/... but whatever. I've got karma to burn, in other threads I may get a better score (though many of my coments is spam ..)
Well, same technique which Novell and SUN uses... And see how well they are doing! :D
Why improve your product than you can mention how bad the other one is instead!?! Lies, damn lies and in Apples and Suns case lying statistics/charts is the shit!
So what if your G4 iMac don't have any games? So what if it has an inferior CPU to a PC? Just make a gaming benchmark on one of the very few games which actually work with your new graphic card compared to a PC desktop with a completely different even more low-end card, voila!! G4 excellence in games!! :D
Much better than listen to game developers, put in decent hardware for gaming and release more mainstream and upgradable machines.
Same with SUN, I read some MySQL benchmark of theirs comparing their Niagra line of CPUs with Opteron, after three days of tweaking they got better performance, but the Opteron beat it to death in the begining... So like, ok, you can get the Niagara, get shitty performance and pay someone skillable enough for three days to tweak the DB and finally get slightly better performance after having submitted a patch to the database code... Or well, be done with it and don't use a SUN machine.
Funny how they use that as an example of how much they ruled when all I could see was how piss poor it was until they had worked a hell of a lot to get it up to decent speeds.
I can't count the number of presentations I've seen with a Mac that have gone green or pink due to the dodgy adaptor they're forced to use. Maybe if you're extremely careful it's fine, but you're out to lunch if you don't acknowledge that it's fragile.
If you lose any of those other things on your list, you can get by. The only one that'd be any more than a mild inconvenience would be the AC adaptor, and if you use a common brand like a Dell or Lenovo, odds are someone will be able to spot you during the presentation. Or you could just make sure to save enough battery power.
If you lose the special Mac only VGA adaptor, you're SOL. Good luck getting one from anyone but Apple, and I don't think your audience will wait a week or two for the delivery.
You misunderstood me with regard to the darkened room comment. The new Macbook models are only available with glossy screens. While those are nice for artists, they're absolute pants for anyone else.
Windows people are so sensitive. I hope none of you convert to mac! The fewer of you running around with OS X the better it is for us OS X users. I think the best thing apple can do is what it does. There is no need to convert people. Just let them use it. If you like fixing the registry, dealing with broken drivers, memory leaks, bi-monthly 4 hour system diagnosis and repair, that's awesome! I'm psyched for you. Keep using windows, someday they'll make it just right for you. Don't forget to sign the check.
Apple... a slick marketing company that happens to sell overpriced computers and phones.
Personally, I laugh at all the people who think they're 'hipper' and 'fighting the man' by owning a mac. If you like your mac for its performance and functionality, great... but I have a feeling a lot of people are just victims of marketing and little else.
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
So your comparing a dual 2.0GHz 2+ year old system with 2.5GB of RAM against a quad 2.66GHz new intel system with 6GB of RAM and your blaming the OS for making the G5 seem slower? 10.64GHz > 4GHz the last time I checked. Leopard must be slower than Tiger, if you believe all the performance advantages of your new machine being twice as fast are negligible.
That Dell isn't the equivalent of the MacBook only in bizarro world. The specs are damn near the same. And it's $400 cheaper.
A Ford has four doors, four wheels, and a steering wheel. It comes with six cylinder engine as an option. It goes, it turns it, stops.
Why would anyone ever want to buy a BMW or Audi?
Except Kaspersky can make your system crumble. It isn't fast. NOD32 is much faster, but then again all of them slow down your system to some degree.
Man, almost done with the comments, I'm glad someone finally remembered to whine about the mouse button.
Linux unfortunately seems to have many issues with the hardware on Macs actually.
It should well under vmware or parallels, assuming running as a guest linux OS works for you.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
No chance in hell they slow it down as much as Safari and Flash does on my mac anyway.
Powerbook - same difference.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I should have mentioned that I rarely give presentations, but it is sometimes necessary. For you I'm sure remembering that little dongle is a no brainer; you need it all the time. For me it isn't; I rarely need it at all and so it's likely to get tossed in a side pocket and easily forgotten or lost.
A Mac without that adaptor is incompatible with projection systems, period.
As for durability, a PC laptop only has one point of failure; the VGA port itself. I've never seen one of those break. I've seen the cabling between the projector and the podium go wonky many times, and the Mac adaptor just doubles that risk.
The only common factor I can come up with is that all problems that couldn't be blamed on the facility were with Macs, but Macs are 100% of the population with those silly dongles.
The real crux of the matter, and Macinistas seem to really miss this, is that Apple hardware simply isn't suitable for me. If it works for you, that's awesome. I'm happy for you. My needs are different.
I run Linux on my systems, so OS X doesn't offer any security advantages. There are certainly other advantages, and I'd very seriously consider it for some of my systems if Apple would sell me a license to use it.
Most sincere apologies if this was coming across as ad hominem. Never intended that. Never intended to proselytize Macs to you.
My reality on /. is that the next time something controversial comes up about iPods, someone will trot out the old "won't play MP3" or "only works with iTMS music" memes.
Your initial post sounded a lot like that, but you had a lower user number (where I find less of that nonsense) and I stopped and sampled a great deal of your other posts in order to gauge whether I was about to engage a decent human or a shill, ie, bother or not bother to reply.
My brusque loquaciousness was driven by the cognitive dissonance you created (thankyouverymuch) on this issue.
That I came across in any way that caused you to have to stoop to the works for you, works for me lesson embarrasses me and I apologize - it's a lesson I don't need and a defense you didn't have coming.
I am guilty of drinking a little Kool Aide on the adapter dongle and I'm glad for this exchange as I'd lost track of that. You are right, any extra anything is a point of failure. That the burden transfers to the user and that I and others I know haven't had the problem (birds of feather, etc.) doesn't excuse that I once hated the thing, got over it, accommodated it (Kool Aide, Kool Aide, tastes great...) is no excuse for pompousness.
I guess I've just had to flatline my brain so many times at smart remarks when I pulled out my Mac to present, that I jumped on compatibility in firmware/sofware(OS) terms and got the better of myself. Were I to just be a regular user, as I once was before all of that traveling and presented, and was asked to present what was seen over my shoulder, I wouldn't have the dongle, either. I'd be frustrated, and I'd call it unsuitable.
So, how about meeting me halfway and next time call it unsuitable rather than incompatible? OK, that's not a requirement.
PS - not trolling or baiting - how well does a Linux laptop work for presentations? Does the external display mirror primary or is there an option? Etc? Sincerely curious, but understand if you've had enough.
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
So, you're going to wait until viruses are running around in the wild before making sure you're protected? I suppose you also wait until it starts raining to fix a hole in the roof? There is nothing magical about Macs that makes them immune to malware.
That's about the opposite of my anecdotal evidence. My Thinkpad has excellent wireless reception, and always connects quickly. Mac laptops on the other hand have some of the worst wireless performance of any brand, probably due to the metal cases and weird antenna locations (form over function strikes again!). It's funny to see the Mac people running around trying to pick up a connection while I'm enjoying excellent signal strength.
caitsith01:You will also get some brands of Windows laptop much cheaper by shopping around. In fact, Dell is one of the only companies who don't fall into this category.
Not to mention that the review picks Lenovo and Sony, two of the most expensive brands. Where is Asus, for instance?
Honestly, I spent about two months looking for something with comparable specs earlier this summer, and nothing could be had for under $900, and the Lenovo I found that was pretty close to this was $1200. Dell's still starting their lines with ATi and Nvidia video cards at $899 and selling suckers more expensive "XPS" laptops, pitching them for gaming and "entertainment" use with Intel GPUs, much like Apple did up until a week or two ago.
$999 is a fair price for something with a real video card - The whole point of this article is that, by including a real video card for once, the $999 price point becomes fair. Before that, the MacBooks were $200-300 more than like-spec'ed Windows laptops. When we get down to a hundred dollars or less, that is no longer anywhere near significant enough to have their competition be considered "much cheaper."
Good luck finding even a previous generation Penryn proc and Nvidia card for less than $900. I still can't. That Newegg link shows every Penryn and Wolfdale-powered laptop they sell with ATi and Nvidia GPUs. Not a one can be had for less than $949 ($200 cheaper than the cheapest ASUS), and the one that can is a Lenovo - Hardly one "of the most expensive brands." If you dropped the new Macbook into Newegg's search results it would be the third cheapest new laptop in its class.
So one day my boss walks in and asks what I'm doing with a ready-to-be-retired laptop. I answer that I'm planning on carrying two laptops, one Windows for Powerpoint (presentation wasn't OpenOffice compatible, not my fault) and software demo and troubleshooting, one Linux for all other, as I just couldn't hack Windows at the 100% rate (my desktop was Linux). So he's happy that I'm security conscious but unhappy for more junk for me to haul. Next question, was there any way to do this from one machine? Wine not being good enough for my needs, and running OS X with Virtual PC at home, I opened my big mouth - expecting that this would give me space to do my 2 laptop thing.
Next day I was the new owner of Mac laptop.
Hope you enjoyed the story, cheers, thanks again.
Pathological kinda promises Path + Logical - but instead, you get stuck with pathetic.
There are many, many examples of how the 'reviewer' has simply picked the wrong comparisons. Sony and Lenovo are notoriously expensive. Generic Dells are notoriously crappy.
We should compare Apple's products with products from other *major brand names*, which comes with similar (worse, really) support. So, please, it does not make much sense to compare a MacBook with an Asus.
And of course, where the Apple is deficient (e.g. hard disk space or RAM) the reviewer doesn't add the necessary upgrades at Apple's prices to make the price comparison fair, it simply ignores them.
What? Why would anyone buy RAM and hard disk from Apple? This should be added to both competitors at the same price, because that's what *I* will end up paying.
I can't link to it because of Dell's site, but for about $100 more Dell currently has an XPS 1330 which whips the Macbook in virtually every respect: much better graphics, much more RAM and HDD, significantly faster CPU, bigger battery, better connectivity, and so on. Mysteriously, the reviewer has instead selected a relatively poor quality Dell as a comparison point.
The reviewer has done a pretty good job at selecting the competitors. I looked at your XPS1330. The base versions have Intel X3100 integrated graphics, which is MUCH MUCH slower than the new NVIDIA graphics chip on the MacBook. So these are NOT really comparable machines. The only comparable one is the MOST expensive version, the XPS M1330 with NVIDIA 8400M graphics chips. Guess how much that is? $1449. AND:
- it only has a SLOW 667 MHz bus (vs. 1066 for the MacBook and Lenovo)
- it only uses DDR2 instead of DDR3 RAM
- it only has g wireless networking
HOW ON EARTH can you claim that this, more expensive, computer from Dell "whips the MacBook"?
How? This is not explained. Does "different class" mean "much cheaper?
No. Just take a simple look at those cheap PC laptops. THEY ARE LOOK LIKE CRAP. No one come even close to the MacBook in terms of quality of construction and fit and finish. Only some Sony look decent in comparison. Guess how much they are?
Why not pay whatever Apple charges for the same capacity? One of the biggest Apple gouges is when you add RAM or storage to their preconfigured systems. Ignoring this is not justified.
Yes, it is. Because I will not be buying those upgrades from Apple. So, please show me a PC that is *cheaper* (and by this, I mean significantly cheaper, not just $100 or less) than the MacBook that has:
- 13.3 LED widescreen
- Core2Duo processor
- fast graphics (NO integrated Intel crap)
- digital video out
- integrated DVD burner
- decent looks
I will eat my hat if you find one, cuz the Dell XPS it isn't.
where any clear beverage must not contain any caffeine.
After unsuccessfully fighting suspend / resume with Linux, I am now considering a Mac laptop. You could argue that a laptop without a good suspend / resume that works well is not really a laptop.
I think a lot of the anti-Apple sentiment comes from people like me who would like the opportunity to use OS X, if only Apple would deign to take our money. It generates a lot of frustration and disagreement between people who don't really have any substantive differences.
For me, the Mac tax really hits hard and that makes Apple hardware a non-option. I bought a Core Duo laptop for $500 a few years ago, and only use it as a portable. I put together a quad core desktop together about a year ago for $1,200.
If I'd bought Macs, I'd have had to buy a MacBook Pro (13" is too small for me), and the closest thing Apple offers to my desktop is $3,100. (Full disclosure: Apple gouges Canadians for an extra couple hundred.)
I'd be happy to give them a couple hundred dollars for an OS X license, but not a 100% plus "Mac tax".
Even if the prices were comparable and the configurations suited me, I still wouldn't want to tie myself inextricably to a single hardware vendor.
As for presentations on Linux, it works fine, provided you've made sure to set X up to handle the VGA output. I use Gentoo though, a more user friendly distro like Ubuntu might handle more automatically.
OS X (with fink) would probably be more suitable for my laptop (and maybe my desktop). It drives me nuts that Apple won't let me have it. I've been happily cheering Psystar on from the sidelines :P
Dude, MacAfee and Norton KILL computers. They suck their evil little twisted gooey guts right out through your WALLET! Then you get a new compter and strangle it before its born!
( I almost frothed at the mouth for a second ).
Most antiVirus software cuts your performance by 20% to 80%, and sometimes causes it to comatose for hours.
I have a Dell 8200, and a PowerBook G4 17" side by side, and the Dell at 1.2Ghz, is a bit faster from the Stripped Naked XP, but Flash is killing its sleep-walking, and the powerbook just wakes right up, and plays. The powerbook has not been rebooted since the last software update, and its unlikely it will. Everything integrates nicely. I love the wider screen for video, but the 1600x1200 Dell has a DAMN lot of screen area.
I use a free antivirus solution, and if Im not surfing, its off.
BUT TO ANSWER THE ARTICLE QUESTION: The powerbook with a every version of Graphing Calculator, and Mathematica runs very smoothly. I dont do math on the Dell, it could work, but I would have to get another liscense for Mathematica, and I am not in school anymore. Graphics are a bit faster on the Dell, because I went back to DirectX 8.1+, and the Powerbook is too old to support quartz, so If the Powerbook was a bit faster, it would have much faster graphics.
A few more Things Macintosh, in things of technology they left behind: NuBus cards. QuickDraw, All-in-one form factors, ADB keyboards mice and modems, They have speedboated legacy software, ( The Dell Boots DOS, and I have played DOS games on it from 20+ years ago ). Macintosh hardware although abit higher quality and manafactured better, both better quality assurance, and support, kind of synergistly adds up to more than just those parts into something that some people latch on to as good. I am not a fanboi, but they do have some very good products. I have only bought ONE Macintosh new, and have purchased serveral PCs new, and think that altough the Macintosh's are over priced, they are not as overpriced as most people think.
Funny, I want the best software for the lowest price.
Funny, I want the highest productivity for the lowest price. Often that's a Mac, often it's Linux. It's never Windows, and I used to be a Windows geek, once upon a time.
Hardware/software - they're just means to an end.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Cost effective? Go customise and you'll see the Keyboard and Mouse come to £106 (on top of a £62 power lead!) What, are they gold plated? CRAY obviously think of their brand like Ferrari or Prada - just sticking a logo quadruples the price. Designer CRAY sunglasses anyone?
on the trackpad. For all you morons who need it.
Did you read the article. The only unit tested that was cheaper was the Dell and it had vastly inferior graphics and a slower CPU...
... is worth the "extra" money in and of itself. It is machined from a single piece of aluminum. Every surface is machined which means that it must be clamped at least three times. Someone has to be there to pick the thing up and move it to the next CNC machine. The manufacturing time is probably measured in hours, not seconds that a plastic injection molded alternatives you can buy.
Everything else aside, Apple is the only company out there right now that has the balls to make a high quality case out of a single piece of metal. If there is one thing you will do with that computer, it's look at it. You will stare at that thing for a long time and it will look sexy the whole time.
I withdraw my previous comment. I initially mistakenly believed that this much-touted $999 Macbook contained a real GPU, but instead have found that it still uses Intel's Extreme-ly bad graphics. Nvidia Macbooks start at $1299 - $400 or 44.444% more expensive than its nearest competition. The Mac-tax persists.
I just notice a lot more Apple fanboys on Slashdot
Name one. Name a single Kool Aid drinking, Steve-Jobs-shit-doesn't-stink Apple fanboy.
i got moer than four years os use out of my pb g4, which i retired with a brand spanking new mb; my wife has had her 12' g4 for almost five years. total cost of ownership: 1) leopard upgrade, family pack, $199 (serviced four machines); ditto for iWorks upgrade, $99: total: $298. riding the windows upgrade cycle on four machines alone would have been more than the new macbook. what tax are we talking about?
oh, almost forgot, my requirements of keeping my wife going on the mac over her old sony/windows laptop: not more than two hours a year -- usually the result of me mucking with our network and getting the mb going, nada ... migration assistant. crash free and complete from iCal to XCode to iTunes.
"since personal preferences (and hand size) play a major role when it comes to input, but I think that that the MacBookâ(TM)s innovative touchpad gives it the ADVANTAGE"
You have got to be kidding me? Totally unintuitive, I need more fingers than I have (well almost) to do basic tasks, I need to move my hand AWAY from the keyboard to move the mouse pointer... How can this thing be innovative? Seriously.
I will take the IBM/Lenovo Trackpoint/touchpoint/clit/whatever-that-red-thing-in-the-middle-of-the-keyboard-is-called anyday over ANYTHING that makes me MOVE my hands AWAY from the keyboard.
Yes, its pretty, yes its cool, no its NOT very functional nor usable in the long run.
I'm glad I got the used MacBook with the plastic case cheap from Craigs list with firewire so I can you know USE it to edit video, run vastly superior firewire external drives, firewire audio break out boxes etc.
OK you can go back to your lame sexual frustration jokes now, happy?
Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
How is this trolling?
It is a fact, that common properly educated people have a tendency to not choose to do so, even when heavily fatigued or simply unmotivated.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
I was just at my local computer retailer today , but I forgot to try out the new MAC BOOK.
Macs, to me, have always been synonymous with designer clothes. A shirt does the same thing whether it's a Target shirt or a Prada shirt. Some people are just more willing to buy Prada shirts.
Now my question is this: Where's the argument? The nature of design is that it's supposed to trickle down until the ingenuity becomes affordable. Macs put a camera in the screens of their laptops, now almost all computers put a camera in the screens of their laptops. Apple came out with a touch screen phone and lo and behold, each phone company comes out with their variant "iPhone killers".
Granted these examples might have come out somewhere else before Apple did it BUT it wasn't until Apple did it that the industry picked up it's pace to catch up.
It's how the system works, sure what's under the hood is what's important to many but if looks and ease of use weren't an issue to begin with than GUIs would never have been imagined in the first place.
It's an elitist notion that everyone is guilty of. Even the ones who point fingers for choices that are not their own (therefore "stupid"). It's nothing more than the desire to feel better than at least one other - were all guilty of it. The least we can do is stop complaining about it, move on with our lives and find a WoW server devoid of 12 year old bastards who camp.
The 14'th amendment was was created to be an option.
On the other hand, the government does tend to have alternate-universe definitions of things. Like down here "shall not be infringed" and "public use" have taken on whole new meanings in the government lexicon.
Sounds like the Microsoft marketing machine at work again. They can't get anyone to like them so they are going for bashing instead. After all, their ads have been one flop after another.
So don't use them, and they can't be worse than Safari + flash.
1.2 GHz Dell? Who cares about your experience on that one?
Flash kills my 2.2 GHz C2D MBP...
All modern laptops have wide screen you know, and many have them at higher res than Apples laptops.
Who cares about a 5-7 year old laptop? Mac or PC?
"1.2 GHz Dell? Who cares about your experience on that one?
... fyi )
Flash kills my 2.2 GHz C2D MBP..."
Only slightly more than cares about your priceless junk. ( It was the subject of several 5, informative posts
mod parent stuid troll
Does not compute.
Informative or insightful doesn't mean anything than the subject is Apple products, all you need to do is to say anything positive and you will get them by default, no matter what if it's wrong or retarded.
1.2 GHz Dell is what? Pentium-M? Pentium III? You don't specify shit, and it's not like it's up to date, neither is your G4.
If flash can easily destroy my 2.2 GHz C2D why wouldn't it totally trash your machine?
All Apple fanboys have some sort of weird reality distortion field.
Quartz is smart, to bad Apple don't seem to make good use of it. Why would they put so little VRAM in my machine if they did? With quartz and core image lots of vram makes sense, why use less than what everyone else use?
Also GPU acceleration don't have to lead to higher performance, at least not with a stupid configured machine such as this one from Apple. Apple Aperture use the GPU for it's effect but it's running dead slow since 128 MB vram isn't enough, Adobe Lightroom don't but it's snappy since the amount of RAM haven't become a limitation, even though the CPU may not be optimal for pre-rendering the effects compared to what the GPU could had been had the machine been decent configured.
Anyway, it's not like you're supposed to understand things like that, Apple fanboy as you obviously are.
BTW, a troll is someone who post just to stir up the forum/thread/whatever with lots of emotion and posts but don't give a shit about what is said, simply because it's fun. I'm not a troll, I actually believe what I post, you may not agree but I won't accept censorship just because you Apple people can't handle the truth. So I'll keep on posting even if you moderated me inappropriate (It's not like it's the first time you are wrong anyway ..)
I am not an Apple Fanboi. I just call them as I see them. Geez, Harp on the Dell! its a FREE Dell 8200 1.8 Pentium M, ( Northwood, Family F Rev 2 Stepping 7) and I run it in powersaving mode. I rather not be up to date, since that would cost $. and a lot of it at that.
I keep flash in check, and run only the animations I am interested in.
It seems is if you have a PC Reality distortion field. ( a diffrent strain of the virus )
As for the FREE Apple iBook G4 800Mhz, It has a lame graphics chip. Quartz does not actually run on it since the performance is too low, hense Apreture doesnt run. Did you know that? ( iBook G4 is a Rage 128G ). But the G4 performs better than the Dell NV17M (GeForce 4 MX 200 ). 150nm, 221Mhz. ( just so you dont think I cannot tell a potato chip from a computer chip. )
Im just wondering now, how much money you have wasted on your C2D? ( Its not up to date like you say, probibly more than a year old, but then again its a Centrino chip, so its really a gelded C2D ).Hmm You dont specify anything either. Do you even know the stepping of your chip?
Total Cost for my rigs: G4 iBook $0, Dell 8200, $0, Expression on a loud mouth trolls face? Priceless.
I dont have the problem of having to believe what I post. I just copy the information right off the screen. Dosen't need interpretation, but it was interesting to see your personal definitions of 'interesting' and 'troll'