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A Teacher Asking Students To Destroy Notes?
zwei2stein writes "I found this question with far-reaching implications in the off-topic section of a forum I frequent: 'My economics teacher is forcing us to give up all of our work for the semester. Every page of notes and paper must be turned over to her to be destroyed to prevent future students from copying it. My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"
You wrote them? They belong to you.
This is called theft, there is no other word for it. File a police report immediately.
I would definetly say they are the students. I cant understand why a teacher would do this. Isnt the whole purpose of the course to learn?
easy solutions:
a) photocopy the notes
b) type them up to begin with
c) leave ITT TECH and go to a real university
Nature journal lied in Britannica vs Wikipedia Ask to retrac
Even American public schools, which don't offer students the same protections against search and seizure as other citizens, still require reasonable doubt for a search - and that's for illegal materials. Even if you were in a high school, it would still be illegal for her to go into your backpack and take your property.
I'm assuming you're at a college or university, in which case it's extremely illegal.
You pay for school to learn, and what you write down is your work not hers. I would definitely contact the higher ups at your school and the police for theft.
Was there something in the syllabus about it? Usually the teacher puts all that stuff in there to prevent liability in the event that something happens.
If there's nothing in the syllabus, I'd say your professor cannot require your notes back.
However, your professor had no right to go through your personal property. Your professor sounds like that asshole receipt checker at Wal-mart that gets all pissy when you refuse to show your receipt...
All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
Your tuition payed for those notes.
I kept all my college notes for future reference. In my opinion, you spend the semester memorizing the general layout of the book and your notes, so that you can quickly look it up in the future. After a year, you don't remember much else.
Theft, unlawful search and seizure, destruction of property..... You could go nuts with this. This can't possibly be legal.
Alchemist: Be Thou For the People
1) With the school. 2) With the local police. 3) Contact a major news outlet. 4) Refuse going to that class until settled. 5) Contact local ACLU type outfit. Write down the event now, while it's still fresh.
What I do myself (having been in college way the hell too long anyway) is scan my notes at the end of the week/month as I need them, thereby going paperless.
And what I would suggest to you (or further versions of you in that class) is to scan your notes, print to pdf, and post online with keywords so that everyone can grab them.
Worked for DeCSS, right?
There is one related situation where this would be reasonable: Preprint versions of textbooks. I've taken a few classes where the professor hadn't published his textbook yet and so made pdfs or handout versions available. Were those the notes, I could understand requiring purchase of a real copy to keep them as this is the electronic analogue to loaning out a "classroom set" and demanding its return at the end of the semester. Still, this is why professors need to make new assignments/tests.
... back in my undergrad days I had an issue with a professor who tried to pull his own stunts, even trying to call me out (while claiming to not know who he was calling out) publically in class. After a conversation with couple of lawyers and a few folks at the university after making a complaint of harassment (me being a white male who at the time was in his early 20's) and which at one point resulting in the university president calling me on my cell personally, it was decided that given the professors work was a paid for by the university, they had effectively no rights to it... so my copious note taking, and eventual whole scale recording of classes what perfectly legitimate and up to the university... and not the individual professor who was being paid to perform for the classes behalf.
As sad as I am to say it... a tape recorder, obvious or not (ideally obvious be it in public or private) can be your best friend... though in my case I also had a laptop recording everything as well.
Let me give you the advice I was given when I was dealing with an overzealous professor who thought they were god in the classroom and eventually was threatening to sue me and the school... talk to a lawyer.
Remember though... I am not a lawyer, I've just talked to a few over this issue and think you should to.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
She is trying to prevent frats etc from building up a set of 'files' on her class.
It's pointless as now that the word is out students will simply keep extra copies.
What kind of class is so unimportant that you wouldn't want to keep your notes and maybe texts.
The notes belong to you. But that's not the only issue.
Is the teacher tenured? You might want to pick you battles or at least join a group of students to protest to the dean.
Don't file a police report.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Scan all the docs into .pdf and put them all online (after you have safely received your passing grade, preferrably). Write a little note explaining the probably illegal policy and what happened.
As soon as she violated my space or property, i'd treat her like anyone else not in my family or friends circle. She'd back the fuck up, or i'd clock her right there. You don't steal from me. Yes, i'd go to jail over it if need be.
Seriously, how is she going to track this down? If you're afraid of being found out, post it to Wikileaks where they are beyond any court order. If she tries to pull anything on you, tell her that she needs to prove it was you, and if she can't that the university will be on the financial hook for it (i.e. back off).
As a former lab instructor, my job was to share my knowledge with students, not to prevent them from taking it with them. Hard-ass instructors like this just pissed me off because they think people won't show up to their lectures if they have their notes. There's no better way than to return the favor than to do exactly what they tell you not to.
Second, so what if other students use elder student's notes to learn the material; isn't learning the point? That teacher needs get his/her head examined.
Is the purpose of a college class to give a student knowledge of a field of study? Or is it to just award a credit towards a degree?
Sound to me that the lecturer thinks it's the latter, which is a problem. Those notes are a valuable resource to any student who wants to retain that knowledge, whether for future classes, a job after college, or just for the pure love of knowledge for its own sake. The student has paid for those notes in time, effort, and money. Asking him to give them up is short-sighted and stupid. Taking them from his backpack is theft.
Not like you're going to use anything taught in there after that class anyway...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
*Do* file a police report, *do* talk to a lawyer.
*Also* scan all the docs into .pdf and put them all online.
Letting criminals like your prof get away with their crimes (theft is a crime, and illegal) only encourages their deviant behavior (normal people don't steal, your prof is a deviant).
The idea of a university is to learn, not to pass courses. Learning involves taking away, in your head and in physical form, knowledge. If your teacher believes that the only output from her course is the grade, and after that the entire set of things she has taught are worthless, that's telling you something: what she's teaching is, in fact, worthless. If the university backs her position, they're saying that the knowledge they impart is fit only to be thrown away. Anyway, the copyright in your notes vests in you. She's welcome to try arguing that notes taken in a lecture belong to the lecturer, but she's wrong.
Working as a TA one of the MAJOR rules we have is to never, EVER touch a student or their property. Doing so can be classified under assault.
egg the teacher's house. Got an address?
I'll venture a quick guess... Ms. Galindo, Harlandale High School, San Antonio, TX? (I'm surprised she's still teaching if so, she has to be pushing 70 by now. I graduated in 1996..didn't have her for classes, but knew of her antics far too well.)
If it isn't her, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that someone else would do the same.
Besides being anal about exactly how students take notes, she was notorious for making all students turn in their notebooks at the end of the year. She would make sure they were complete (you'd fail the entire class if not) and then make you shove it through an industrial shredder she had brought in just for this task.
Fun fact: She was teaching there as far back as the 70's...a family friend had her back then. The friend ended up out of school due to medical issues. An hour after waking up from a major surgery that had her gutted like a fish, that teacher was on the phone making sure she was doing her homework.
let it be known that this is what happens when you don't sleep for 4 or 5 days
Happiness does not come from having much, but from being attached to little.
You paid your tuition so that you could gain knowledge.
Forcing you to give up your notes is effectively saying that you must retain everything in your head, which is ridiculous.
They're your notes, you paid to be able to take them. She has no right.
And even beyond that, it's unreasonable search and seizure by a civilian (what would that fall under, larceny?) for her to go into your backpack without your permission. File a police report and involve the administration of your school.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
Your paper, your binder, your property. File a police report, go register for whatever sort of "whistle blower" status the school has.
You don't "copy" class notes, you write class notes. In your own words. There is a big difference. You are the author.
Absolutely absurd. I would've ripped my bag out of her hands and walked out of the class before I let her take anything of mine. If your instructor did in fact take and keep your binder - your propery - I would contact the department head (in a level-headed and calm manner), describe the situation and (if necessary) threaten to get the police involved. If that fails... go over the department head's... head... and get the police involved.
No instructor has the right to take and destroy any materials they didn't provide you with in the first place. You did the work, you wrote down the notes. Anything and everything that you created to assist your learning is your property.
Attempting to control the flow of information coming from that course in such a totalitarian manner is a fallacy anyway. Any instructor operating under the delusion that she can prevent her students from passing on information learned in her class lacks a grasp on reality.
Assuming you are NOT a minor and are in college then they have no right to take your notes. As stated before you wrote them so they are your property. I would at least file a formal complaint even if the professor is tenured and talk to a lawyer.
On the other hand if you are a minor and this isn't college then your rights (if any) will depend. In this case it really depends on what your parents are willing to do and or back you doing.
It's not a "story," dumbshit, it's ASK SLASHDOT.
You know, where any old yokel can ask for advice about any old thing he thinks Slashdot readers might know about??
In favor of the teacher's stance. While I cannot agree with her *methodology*...
The concept being that the content of the lectures you attended has an agreed upon finite value: You paid a semester's tuition for them.
Therefore, providing that same content for free (or at reduced cost) to another person could well be construed as a devaluation of that content, and hence, actionable.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10351058
>>Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge?
No, that's a stupid question. To be more specific: yes a teacher can "ask", but what possible good would it do?
>>How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge?
It doesn't, unless there is a contract between you and the institution. Is there? That thing you signed when you became a student, perhaps?
>>Whose property are those notes?
Yours, unless you agreed before the class started that you wouldn't keep any notes you made.
Why is this stuff "hard" or even "interesting"?
Make sure to do all these things on the same day. Make sure the news story goes out before school officials have time to react. That is what they deserve.
Even if the textual IP was hers isn't the paper and ink your property? Do not give her the paper. Contact a lawyer, file a complaint. Just DO NOT give her the paper.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10351058
The easier solution is to refuse to give them up, assuming this person is an adult in their state and didn't agree to this "give up your notes thing" before the professor has no right to take the notes any more then the professor would have rights to take the students wallet.
Say something, make your teacher repeat it, then slap their face telling them that you're trying to get your property back out of their mouth.
this is incredibly stupid and asinine.
If the circumstances are as described by you, then go to court and have a field day. Your teacher has no right whatsoever to go into your property. Period.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
This is a weird situation (in the case of a public University) because arguably most of the money for the lecture comes from the public... but it is not a public forum. The University has the right to restrict the lecture to students who have paid tuition.
However, if you are a student, and you have paid tuition, you have every right to all materials that are presented in that lecture.
My University (after some legal wrangling) recognized this and thereafter allowed the Student Body Association to record (on paper) and sell "official" lecture notes for recurring lectures, and in fact found it to be a valuable educational tool for those who could not take good notes, or could not keep up due to language or coordination problems, etc.
Everybody benefited as a result.
Study is study. Lecture notes do not help people "cheat", except in the sense that they might not have to physically be present at the lecture in order to benefit from them. They still have to read the notes and learn the material. Heck... that's what televised lectures are all about anyway!
Intellectual Property rights apply only to innovative knowledge. This means that you have to produce knowledge in your notes in order for their content to be protected. As for the text itself, since it is written by you with your personal style of writing, it could be considered a piece of literature, so you might be able to pretect the way in which the notes were taken. Keep in mind that the teachings of the said person themselves are not original either and do not belong to the teacher intellectually. As for the notebook or clipper, since it was paid by you or it resided in your backpack or schoolbag, taking it without your consent must be considered theft and destruction of private property. That's all about the legal issues. Imo, it's just lame to expect students (highschool or university) to remember everything said in a classroom without taking notes...
Are you serious? You allowed the teacher to go into your backpack, which is your private property, and take something which belonged to you, while doing nothing about it? Not even the cops can go into your backpack like that.
Why are so many people so freakin spineless?
I don't want to sound like an internet warrior here, but dude, if a teacher tried to do that to me, I would prevent them, pushing / punching / kicking them if I had to as a last resort.
(No, this does not make me a 'violent idiot' as someone else stated, it just means I have enough backbone stand up for myself in person with ACTION rather than on the internet with words. ACTION is the only sort of standing up that really matters, when it all comes down to it.)
You do know that you have the right to defend your personal property, right? Man up.
Yes, I know this could lead to repercussions from the university, such as being threatened with expulsion - that's when you get lawyers involved.
There's no way to say how it would pan out, but you have the advantage that, in the eyes of the law, you are in the right and they are in the wrong - provided you don't pull a weapon or beat them to death, anyway. That equates to a lot of potential negative publicity which the university probably doesn't want.
If you make a big enough stink about it, they'll most likely just let it slide eventually - though it will be tough for a while.
You might get kicked out, but Jesus H Christ man, you cannot go through life acting like a minnow and bending over when you know what someone else is doing is wrong.
STAND UP for yourself for god's sake. Let the chips fall where they may. When you get to the end of your life, you aren't going to wish you were nicer to that teacher (instead of punching them square in the solar plexus), but you will probably regret allowing people to trample all over you and never quite getting what you wanted.
This has been a public service announcement.
Even if they owned the content, it's still your notebook, and the instructor has no right to it.
The choice to take notes or not and what sort of notes to take if they choose to is completely the student's. The "class notes" are not a work for hire, they are a learning aid the student develops to suit them, and primarily for their personal benefit.
Notes are not analyzed by professors or by other students. Their construction is neither directed nor absolutely essential.
It's also your work, unless you are copying every literal word given by the instructor, you are paraphrasing, and thus making a creative effort.
It may be a derivative work (in that you include forms derived from the instructor's work of some form). But actually it's kind of hard to have a derivative of a work that's not actually in tangible form.
And the fact that something may be a derived work doesn't mean someone else can steal your personally written manuscript without recourse.
The original author of a book doesn't own the "cliff notes" summaries of it.
Or even articles that summarize what happened in the book at length.
By taking their own notes, the student goes through their own writing and organizational process that results in a creation that describes what sort of things transpired in the classroom from their point of view, BUT is fundamentally distinct.
You have to be an AC to post this brainless crap. Shes the creator? Are you even on the same planet as the rest of us? No teacher in any public school for the past 50 years has had an original thought. Everything they 'teach' is a pre-thought thought, carefully written in a textbook, and a matching teachers book, vetted by a battery of federal and state bureaucrats. Teachers don't teach, they regurgitate facts and figures, and expect you to do the same, with no original thought or examination. Ask yourself, are science teachers scientists? Are economics teachers economists? Are math teachers mathematicians? Hell no they aren't, they are indoctrination specialists. If this is a college level issue, even worse. You paid out of your own pocket for that knowledge, its yours. BTW, you paid for the public schooling too, its called taxes.
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This is a legal matter. It has nothing to do with University rules.
Does it actually matter if the story is true or not, as long as it gives a topic for discussion? It is claimed to have actually happened, and it provides a good topic for exploring the community's beliefs about personal rights.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
If someone is stealing from me, I have every right (in my state, anyway) to prevent that theft, with "reasonable" violence if need be.
My state law specifically states that I have the right to defend myself, other people, and my property with a "reasonable" amount of force. And by damned, I would do exactly that. A punch in the nose is more than reasonable for a semester's worth of lecture notes.
If recent police action is any indication, then it would be "reasonable" for me to taze her and beat her with nightsticks as well! After all, standards are standards.
It's a theft. My father, who was a highschool math teacher, gave printed version of his own notes after each lesson - because students usually make really bad notes. How cool is that? :P
tl;dr of all the IANAL posts:
It's not legal, but it's possible the school could punish you if you refused.
Since she went in without asking explicitly, THAT is illegal s&s, and you can hand her ass to her legally, though they'd make an implied consent argument.
It's only an insult if it's not true.
if it's university wouldn't let her near my bag, and accuse her of attempting to snatch my man purse. really what is she going to do, wrestle me to the ground and rip the notes from my steely clutches? failing that she might send me to the counselor, in which case you've got more gold in the form of faking emotional distress.
god i can't stand people who try run your life.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
You wrote them and *you* are the copyright owner.
Release them under CC attribution-sharealike / BSD / GFDL and upload to ThePirateBay.
Or get a real lawyer ;)
Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
If you're a minor in private school, your parents almost certainly signed some sort of agreement that allows the faculty there a great deal of freedom when it comes to handling your property. Confiscation of various items was fairly common the private high school I attended. They also could (and often did) search student lockers and backpacks. This was usually done under the pretense of finding illegal drugs, but the scope was not limited to illegal activity.
Okay. Complain to the school, AND the school board (they need to know about it, even if the principal is sympathetic). DEFINITELY file a police report. But hold the press unless the principle and/or school board do not give satisfaction.
"My teacher had beef so I gave her a smack" Seriously, and I have worked in schools and am studying to be a teacher... what a gross -disgusting, really- use of power. I respect educators 100% when they make the noble effort, but good-gravy, someone needs to sit that woman down and read her the riot act.
At least that is my understanding...
What the heck? I WISH my students would take notes in class!
Well you can't do anything now since you consented to her taking them by letting her in your backpack. Sounds like you just got a lesson in 4th amendment rights. Never let anyone, including authority figures cop teachers, have your personal property ever. Even if you have nothing to hide.
I am not a lawyer, but it might be grounds for a very interesting loophole.
(I wonder how HS could get out of it).
File a police report, talk to a lawyer, try getting a restraining order against her for harassment/willful destruction of property (it can be done prior to hearings about the actual conduct, if there are grounds to believe she'll commit additional petty crime).
I wonder if the teacher would even be able to legally work at that school.
So... Lars can break into your house and forcibly take your Metallica CDs.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
She has no right to go into your bag especially when it has nothing to do with illegal activities.
No matter what she thinks those notes are yours. She destroyed your property so now it's time to destroy her.
If you read your handbook you should see that the students have more rights than they think. The school will never tell you this. They only point out the things you shouldn't do in the handbook and not the good bits.
Of course it's nothing new that teachers won't re-write their teaching docs every year. After all, unless topics change, there is no need to re-do stuff you already prepared. But being so lazy that you don't even want to make up new quizzes every other year, or at least alter them somewhat so that straight copying isn't possible - puleassssse ... even if it legal (which, even in the US, I seriously doubt), once word is out, EVERYBODY will know she's too lazy, keep duplicates (or write the stuff on their computer), and make SURE they are available on the Internet for every new pupil to get for generations to come ...
(Of course, she could use the DMCA takedown provision to get rid of it, but ...)
Legally, they could very well be seen as a transcript of a performance, which might be a form of IP infringement. In real life, however, it is ridiculous. To go to class means for a teacher to share information with students. That fact is taken for granted by all who would teach or learn anything. But maybe it's been taken for granted to the point where there is no law regulating it. Quite an interesting problem.
The correct thing to do is to go to an appropriate dean (which one depends on how the school is structured - in the university I attended, it could have been the dean who oversees the professor, or the dean of the college of my major, or the "dean of students") and explain that the professor opened your backpack without your permission and took from you notes which you wrote on paper you paid for, and that this is theft and you want your notes back. If they are reluctant to act, explain to them very politely that you're trying to help them by not making this criminal theft a matter for the police, and won't they please consider doing something about it?
I myself had some really bad teachers, including some that don't teach at all, some that claim that you've copied from the Internet because you used punctuations (I'm not kidding!), etc... I really think that this is illegal in a way, notes ARE private properties, as long as they're not copied, and even if the were copied, she still has no right to take them out of the students' bags; that's theft, if she really wants to do something about it she can sue them, but not just take the books. However, I do agree that not doing anything about it is probably the best thing a student can do 'cause teachers CAN fail students and the management will believe the teacher unless other students support the one that is complaining which is unlikely 'cause they don't want to get into trouble themselves.
Laith Juwaidah http://www.ljuwaidah.org
In economics, the exam questions are the same every year. They just change the answers.
... I can see why she does it.
As soon as I mention my major from back when I was in college to anyone still in college there, they immediately ask, "Do you still have your lab reports from ____ class?" This has happened to me more times than I can remember, and I graduated from undergrad more than 5 years ago. No, I do not have my Mammalian Physiology or Organic Chem lab notebooks stashed away in a vault.
I understand that the lab classes are difficult, but if you're so desperate for someone to cheat off that you have to ask some random dude at the gym who started a conversation with you about how to do squats properly, there's a problem.
Cheating and copying of former students' assignments is probably rampant. Is this a real solution? No. There are way too many ways to circumvent her system, and it's morally wrong.
A better question to ask is why doesn't she change her tests or assignments or such so that past notes don't matter? It's not like Economics is a lab class with experiments that are difficult to change from year-to-year. If students are collecting old notes to help them study, what's wrong with more study materials so long as they do not allow the students to cheat?
Please forward me detailed information on this event. I happen to maintain an educational resources website for teachers, and I'm sure my community would love to hear about your teacher's actions. Frankly, this is ridiculous. The only time in my life I've ever been asked to destroy notes was when they were taken on classified military topics (I'm active duty Navy). I look forward to hearing from you.
512 MB RAM, 20 GB disk, 200 GB transfer, five datacenters. $19.95/month.
So... Lars can break into your house and forcibly take your Metallica CDs.
Yes! Because he's sooooooo fuckin' metal*!
*Except when he's whining about piracy.
That's pretty disgusting. Not only for the obvious invasion of privacy (reaching into the bag - not for suspected contraband) but mostly because the teacher never changing the curriculum.
This is the epitome of terrible teaching, to me. The teacher could no longer give a fuck about 'freshening things up' and instead will drone on, with *exactly* the same material, year after year. The kids in the class will pick up on that vibe and will never experience the joy that *can* be found in the material.
That is the sackable offense.
.
...such as a livescribe pulse, or the like would allow you to capture not just the notes you take during the class, but in some cases the actual audio involved. Each day sync the pen to your computer, post your notes to your web page and blog. At the end of the year turn in the notebook as requested, and for your reference from then on, either look up the data on your web page, or print out the online edition of the notebook.
After the term is graded, and the grades are recorded permanently, publicly thank the teacher for wasting the time you spent in the class, as the notes you took as part of the class are no longer available to refer back to.
From my own experience, I have to admit that perhaps one or two of the classes I took through the various schools that I attended, ever provided me with useful reference material for subsequent classes. In almost all cases the real intent of the class is to learn how to find the answer to the question, and rarely ever has it been strictly having the 'correct' answer.
That applied to being able to demonstrate in the materials turned in for projects that you were able to derive the correct information, or in situations where research on a subject was required, being able to demonstrate that you were able to find resources that support the conclusion you are presenting, or in some cases the ability to propose a conjecture, and demonstrate through the appropriate research that the conjecture is invalid.
The knowledge gained in the process should become a tool you can use that does not rely on the material specific to that course.
In much of the US, high school students are required to take classes in a couple of English classes, some variety of mathematics, a Science class, and a variety of general electives. I strongly suspect that the vast majority of college students have never picked up their high school notebook for one of these classes to refer back to when attempting to understand a topic being discussed in college.
One side effect of this teacher's process very well may be to instruct the student in the value that their notes may have later on, but only if the material is available to them, and reviewed. If you have constructed a means of insuring that your notes are available to you, whether it be with a pen that captures your notes, or if you personally spend time each week transcribing your notes into your computer, or into another notebook, then you will have gained on the availability side, if not on the initiative to review those notes.
Think also of the library at Alexandria. We very well know that we lost significant knowledge of a number of topics as a result of it burning, and have no way of knowing if we have recovered that knowledge, or not.
Server admins have a pretty good idea of the value of having an available backup of the files on the server.
You never know...
Seriously. Don't give them. Politely explain you are never going to give them to him. There's no way he can legally use violence to take them from you. Refusing to give a grade because of this is improper conduct.
They could naturally try to attack you in justice, but AFAIK there are precedent where the PAID professor by the university just had to shut up.
Why would she even do this? They're NOTES. I could understand if she didn't want you giving finished tests to future students, but notes?
They're hopefully getting the same or similar lectures, and thus approximately the same notes. If future students want to borrow/copy/purchase old notes, it's to their detriment anyway.
I guarantee that 99%, probably 100%, of the content in those notes is
1) Freely available on the internet under public license in various forms
2) Available in the class textbook that they have to purchase anyway
3) Available in notes/homeworks/tests that other students/professors have posted on the internet
This is such a stupid thing to demand of students that it's not even funny. And isn't it the middle of the semester? Won't you be using those notes for homework and tests?
This makes no sense and it's illegal. If she doesn't get fired for this it will be amazing.
You I would have stabbed her in the fucking hand the moment she touched my property.
Sounds like you just let her walk all over you.
You can't take the sky from me.
Which is why you should always carry on you a trusty recording pen.
wake up in the morning... mount coffee/
Aren't his notes currently going through the shredder? If not ask your teacher to add some notes to his operation.
Analytic & algebraic topology of locally Euclidean meterization of infinitely differentiable Riemmanian manifold
scan and make copies and each day hand out copies to EVERYONE in her class and each day make sure she knows you have the same notes TOO.
This kinda a idiot teacher needs to know one simple thing. WE the people don't like you messing with OUR stuff, this would be akin to me buying a computer form dell and buying software to write c programs with. I have th eright to my program NOT DELL and NOT the software vendor that aided me in compiling it ( and oh so dont go there with MS BS, it stifles innovation and creativity get over all this and see how wonderful things will be)
Knowledge is something you know. Telling you to not retain knowledge would be if she told you forget the information you learned. Getting rid of people's class notes would be telling them not to retain information.
That said... WTF? Telling students to destroy their class notes is almost so stupid I'm not sure I even believe this is true. Not only is it just ridiculous, it's actually completely backwards of almost every professor I'd ever had. I honestly can't imagine a professor telling students to destroy their notes.
Maybe not
I'd just lie. Well, personally I wouldn't have to lie as I practically never have any notes from my classes. As for miscellaneous other work, usually teachers don't tell you, "Oh, you can keep them," and then decide to take them back later. I've had teachers unwilling to release tests, which is fine by me--it's not as easy to come up with good questions as one might think. What bothers me in this case is that you've already had the entire term to let others copy your stuff, but the teacher is obviously being a moron and not realizing it.
Tell her to get bent. If she presses the issue, sue.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I had no idea theft was a civil offense. I mean physical theft where you take away some person's property, not the copyright violations that some people call "theft" today.
Thanks to the MAFIAA, people seem to be blurring the lines between philosophical discussion and actual physical violence where someone's property is forcibly taken away.
Hey folks, write this down: TAKING AWAY A BINDER IS THEFT. COPYING A FILE IS NOT THEFT. Is this clear?
Euh .. no violence at school by the way!
I've been seeing a shift between teachers and students the last few years I've been in my 4th-6th degree watching spines being ripped out by fear ...
And literally students *and* teachers getting crazy.. It's not the first time I've seen a metal closet flying through the air from the 2nd floor...
Where are the limits? For both student *and* teacher when everyone thinks to be right ? ..
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
NO.
First: Copyright does NOT protect ideas, concepts, processes, etc. This is true regardless of the medium or form in which they're conveyed.
What copyright does protect, and only protects, is the actual expression. As the Copyright Act states: "[protected works are] original works of authorship in any tangible medium of expression..." [my emphasis].
If she wrote a textbook on economics, it would be protected. If she wrote a poem about economics, it would be covered by copyright. If she made a movie about economics and composed the soundtrack to it, they would be protected by copyright.
Second: "Acting under her direction" is meaningless and irrelevant. Unless the student copied her actual notes, her textbook (i.e. one that she wrote, not her copy of a text by someone else), her rap CD, or some other work of authorship, there was no copyright to violate.
There was something in the news a few years ago that should have taught us all that being docile in the face of a criminal act isn't a winning strategy anymore.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
No, call the cops. Theft is not a matter of university policy, it's a matter of law.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
no further comment...
But I do guess she is one of "modern" Keynesian kinds, where the whole scientific method does not really matter.. :(
You better stick to us, the Austrians.. :)
Paul B.
If you take all your notes on a laptop in class, there aren't many teachers who would dare to try to steal the machine from you.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Did you sign over your rights to the materials at the beginning of the class? I've had teachers require a waver. This I believe would make it legal for them to confiscate your notes.
What's being overlooked here is that you are the owner of the paper, so it's your property. It sounds like she's one of those church lady type teachers, so all you have to do is stand up to her by simply saying NO! They don't know what to do with themselves after to stick it to them like that. Of course, I like taking down bureaucrats, but that's just me:-)
If she thinks that future students copying these notes is going to affect negatively in anyway to the subject, she's taking a totally wrong aproach to teaching, and probably for making exams too.
If she's a good teacher, people will go to her class and take notes themselves, and people won't be able to pass the exam without a truly understanding of the subject (no matter how many notes they have copied from other students).
... I was eating candy while reading. The librarian came up and demanded that I stop eating in the library and to give her the candy. I said no. She tried to take it away but I grabbed it, said I would put it away and proceeded to put it in my backpack. She tried to grab it from my backpack and I slapped her hand. She looked shocked and walked away. I was 16 or 17 at the time. I suffered zero repercussions due to my actions.
In essence, get a spine. Someone cannot just take your property just because they want it. It doesn't matter if they are in a perceived position of authority. They don't have the right. That is unless you've entered into contract that states that they can. Which you haven't mentioned is the case and is *far* from standard practice at high schools in North America. Not to mention that minors can't enter into contract.
But, at this point, I'd suggest going to the Principle *with your parents* to get this resolved. If they don't budge, then local news outlets are *always* looking for stories. I'm sure they'd be interested in this.
Notes? What notes?
Now, if the papers in question are something the prof uses each year (like an exam) yeah, ya gotta hand them back..
a) can she search your backpack? No my personal guess is that this qualifies as theft.
b) can she make restrictions that you may not publish your notes? Yes. Many universities and schools state that lectures may not be published. Depending on the statutes the amount of rights remaining with the lecturer may vary.
c) can she ask you to delete your notes? yes, she can, however i see absolutely no way how this could be more than a question. No way to enforce it. What you wrote down in a lecture is yours, normally (however i am not a lawyer...). See the
d) Is there more behind? Depending on you type of school it may be easy to sue the school for such a practice. Since the teacher profits from it, and it may be a systematic and well planned (to sell scripts or books) and unusual action, it has if you where unaware about it when signing in, very well be something which (at least in Germany) could be "Vorteilsnahme im Amt" = you have an additional profit from a job you are doing for the state. Another thing could actually be that she asks you to delete the notes because she neglected some copyrights.
... under the law for the protection of personal information.
In France, when someone (A) collects any personal information about anyone else (B), then B is legally able to retrieve any information that A may have collected about him, and to request the deletion of such information.
If you say that: A=student, B=teacher, then, the moment the student puts the teacher's name in the notebook, that teacher's gains a right to inspect the student's notebook, and to request deletion of these contents.
A few caveats however:
-I know of no case where a teacher has made an attempt to do that. Hell, that law is not well-understood by many people. And, if that law was enforced, most CIOs would be behind bars.
-I'd wager that the destruction of any way to identify the teacher in question would be enough.
-That is a french law, the US laws about the same matter are quite different.
-The law I am talking about is ultimately about an individual's right to protect his personal information, not about intellectual property like the rest of the article.
Go into your teachers bag and have a good rummage around ... just out of educational curiosity.
Also, this is quite honestly lazy ass teaching. Reusing 100% of the material year after year...? Hell no. Theories change, textbooks update, and teaching methods improve. Beyond that, as pointed out before, the notes are for your future reference, not just for reference of the class. If you were to write all your notes into the margins of your textbook, would they tell you that you have to burn the book?
Bring this to the Dean first. If nothing else, just to get his/her reaction. If the Dean thinks this is no big deal and acceptable behavior, get the hell out of there. That place is taking your money and giving you a substandard education as far as I'm concerned.
Vol~
Is this in the US? Canada? Europe? It's kind of hard to formulate a legal defense/explanation for this without knowing the jurisdiction. The Internet is Global, what passes muster in one country may be completely alien in another. Please provide more context or a link to the original forum post.
Thank you.
--Mike
Unless your in Australia. In which case unless they are specifically employing you for research, anything you come up with is entirely your own property.
I know at least two people who are currently running their own (albeit very small) companies founded on projects they started while doing undergraduate engineering degrees.
I doubt about the value of what students could learn (and write in their notes) from such idiot teacher.
This situation reminded me of an apt poem. Keep in mind that if you live in a tyranny, the only one who can change it is you. Do it before it gets any worse in America.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
This is a matter that could be reasonable resolved without going to for the last resort straight away.
Surely a teacher would want to encourage students to keep their notes? By destroying them it basically says that the subject is pointless and isnt worth further work.
I don't know about econ but I refer back to my med sci notes. Sometimes you learn something in first year, and don't use it for another 2/3 years. I prefer to use my own notes, instead of reading up on it again. As I would have only noted what I generally don't know much about, or insights to the system at hand.
Wikileak
Neither I nor my parents ever signed a contract for me to attend my school. How does fine-print stand up?
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Your notes are your intellectual property since you wrote them. What the teacher did was, in my opinion, illegal.
Right. Additionally this is a teaching concern. If the teacher is so concerned with cheating that they are willing to go to such great lengths to prevent it then perhaps they would best be counseled by their peers.
This seems to be a case of the teacher being too lazy to mix things up from year to year. Additionally (Especially at a college level) You are paying for that class, and those notes are one of the few means available to re-study the material from. If I got wiff of this ahead of time, my notes would be at home. If necessary - I would negotiate a review of the situation with the teachers boss before agreeing to anything, and that teacher would basically have to take my backpack off me to get at my notes, which I will likely assume to be a form of assault and respond in kind (which means pushing their arm away and leaving (Hey - this isn't my house, I have to retreat before striking back))
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
The intent of the test is to see if you have learned the information. If you can take the test without learning the information then you can cheat. If you use a technique to subvert the purpose of the test then you are cheating.
If you can pass a test merely by memorizing material then it is a test of little value. If you can merely vomit material you have memorized up on to the test to pass it then isn't that testing something that in the real world I could use research material and aides to find out the answer for anyhow? Isn't the ability to take a question and formulate a research strategy to find the answers valuable by itself? Why should that be cheating? The ability to effectively research material is not a trivial skill.
More importantly the ability to synthesize what you have learned and find new answers is far more important. If your teacher was creating a test that forced you to think about what you knew and what you had researched and then add them together to create new knowledge then this test would not be something that you could effectively cheat on. If the test answers were paragraph form and needed to be in your own words this would cheating easy to spot.
Unfortunately, creating tests that look for synthesis of knowledge are hard to create and hard to grade. This represents too much work for teachers who are paid little and over-worked. So most teachers look for the lazy path.
The majority of teachers today are forced to use the lazy path of multiple choice tests. The reason is that the reward for choosing the hard path and the reward for actually teaching the students in unquantifiable ways are ... well ... unmeasured. The lazy teacher gets the same pay and respect as the hard working teacher. This means that the hard working teacher is demotivated and might even have problems in their career.
Consider if you put in half the work of your coworkers yet get the same reward. If you do that then you have time for "extras" (like committees) which make you look good to your superiors. In short: modern teachers are rewarded for being lazy and that means they don't have to learn their subjects, stay current, or push for excellence. It is easier to watch rules and mindlessly enforce them.
It's a sad state of affairs.
In short: your teacher (who is wrong both legally and intrinsically) is protecting against something something akin to mp3 file sharing but even older. The idea that you can stop the flow of information was outdated with the printing press. The idea of sharing information is what the school system itself is based on. It's called learning because the information is copied from one generation to the next... which if we were to follow the logical progression of the philosophy your teacher is enforcing.... then generational learning is a form of cheating.
If copying information into my brain and into my own library of information (which I view as extensions of my brain) is cheating then intend to cheat in life as much as possible.
[signature]
Somewhere, some dentist would be making good money off any teacher who tried to reach into my briefcase to take out my notes without my permission.
That is my legal right in the State of California.
People in positions of authority are getting way out of hand and they need to know the strength of their chain before they leash us.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Fine print written where?
Though I live in Sweden and most schools (and all upper education / universities and such) is ran by the government and free. I don't think I've agreed to shit more than access to and rules off the computer network.
A reply in the original thread says:
Even funnier that the forum ID which posted that is "I pwnd U"....
Point #1: This is an unknown United States High School of an unknown State. Rules and regulations vary between states and public and private high schools.
Point #2: You (student) own the physical property consisting of the binder, the paper, the ink you wrote with, the tabs, etc. You also own the derivative intellectual property of both the notes from her class and any other class you took notes in that happen to be in that binder. You also own the the absolute intellectual property of any doodles, poetry, and notes you took on subjects not related to the classes you took (ie. "I love Sarah", "My economics teacher is a moron"). If the binder in question was a zipper binder like I use, you also own the pens, the disks, the Scantrons, the gum wrappers, etc contained within.
Point #4, Followup: If this teacher is somehow still teaching next semester, form a student club (or just a bunch of trustworthy dudes/gals who are skilled at taking notes), and scan their notes. Post to a blog or the Pirate Bay.
Point #5:For further ideas, read Cory Doctorow's Little Brother, or just about any blog or article on privacy rights. Hell, read the constitution.
Silly Ajax mod system, I accidentally selected "Funny" instead of "Informative". Posting to cancel that wrong mod...
http://www.dilbert.com/2009-01-24/
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
A lesser case happens all the time: just the tests are kept by the teacher. I've been in classes where the teacher hands out the graded tests, but requires it be handed back, and never returned. Is the test my work and property? The teacher wrote the test questions. Is it then his work and property?
7) Profit!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel."
Here is the most likely situation. You created the notes and own the notebook so the actual copy you made was yours. Your notes contain, most likely, her language and not just her ideas; so they are a derived work of her presentation which means you don't own license to your notes free and clear. Making copies would be a copyright violation. So all the comments about "you wrote them so they are yours" are incorrect. She has some rights to them.
Now the question is whether you were licensed to create a derived work from her presentation. Given that she was presenting in an environment where people were taking notes, she was aware of this and it seemed like the intent I'd say you were. So the question is whether the syllabus had an explicit surrender clause, or better yet if she had sign a surrender clause. Without that it is hard to argue she has any rights to your derived work (your notes).
So, no legally she was in the wrong. You could have refused and if she attempted to take them by force after you refused that's robbery. Now I doubt anyone would prosecute but she was in the wrong. If she didn't force you but rather applied a penalty, for refusing to surrender the notes, like failing you, I doubt the courts would see that as outside her legitimate powers.
I think you should put a note on "rate my professor" so other people know and don't bring their notes.
My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?
No.
This is a matter that could be reasonable resolved without going to for the last resort straight away.
Once someone takes another person's property, they are beyond the pale. This is a matter for the law.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I am not a lawyer, but I think that if you don't have to do this contractually, you don't have to do it. I doubt that you had to agree to a Non-Disclosure Agreement, for example, to take this class, but if you did, then the teacher might be within their rights.
So, ask if this is covered by contract. (Things may be different if you are under-age.)
This may not make you popular with the educational establishment, and they have their ways of retaliating, but I never cared about that.
You forgot about "fast" before the date http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2009-01-24/
I think you'll find that what you're talking about is it being illegal to record a phone call where the person on the other end doesn't know about the recording. And that it may be illegal to broadcast a recording you've made of someone without a release from the subject. But if I walk around with a tape recorder and you don't deign to give me your permission to record while I'm within earshot of you, well that's basically tough shit for you.
You paid tuition, those notes are the knowledge that you PAID for, and those notes will be what you will refer to later. I've kept most of the notes I took during college, and I do refer to them from time to time. She STOLE the knowledge you rightfully paid for.
It's theft, period.
Its called theteacher has infringed on your copyright file a DCMA order against the teacher with EFF's help. Who says we cannot use bad laws for the Good of the People ?
Fred Grott(aka shareme) http://mobilebytes.wordpress.com
On the other hand, by restricting supply, she is creating an artificial scarcity, which should send prices through the roof! If she ever stops collecting them, prices will crash.
The topic starter at least understood that this is wrong, and took the initiative to ask for advice on what to do. Sounds like the kind of person who will at least make a stand and say. Frankly, the teacher is being lazy: they should prepare new tests each year if cheating is a problem, not demand that students abandon their notes, and certainly not forcibly remove the notebooks from their backpacks. I would, at the very least, report this to the principal (this is a high school, or so someone else said) and include the phrases "petty theft" and "intellectual property" in that complaint (assuming it is not high school, I would go to the provost with the same complaint).
Palm trees and 8
This suggests a bad teacher/professor. If your students can get by simply by copying notes, then you are not teaching the subject properly. Students need to learn to apply the subject, not just repeat memorized notes.
In a properly taught class, all the notes and books in the world available to you during the exam won't save you unless you learned and understand the subject.
--Won't that be grand? Computers and the programs will start thinking and the people will stop. - Dr. Walter Gibbs
Why bother with such silly questions? Tell her 'I lost the notes' and be done with it.
Never mind there is not going to be any work for you or your class once the global economy falls to it knees and we all have to hunt for are own food killing each other for rotten meat. You might as well burn the school/university down as there not much use for these moronic institutions anymore as they are full of "teachers aka idiots living in an dream world" that has no relation to the real world, other than bullying as this pattern is very popular in business practices by competent and incompetent people. Stop taking eduction so seriously as it is generally useless and full of people who could not step one foot in the private sector without having a breakdown.
Just as an interesting coincidence, my economics teacher did the following:
1) Wrote up his own notes in outline form for every chapter in the book;
2) Provided the notes to every student at the beginning of the class in Word documents;
3) Not only allowed us to keep them, but encouraged us to use them in future studies in Economics--not only with different teachers but even at different institutions.
To my knowledge it's bloody expensive in Australia, let alone over there.
That kind of money, I'd damn well want to keep my notes, incase I need to look on them one day 5 years in the future.
I mean you're 'buying' this education at this establishment, they should be kissing your ass for going to their class.
I wouldn't call the police nor would I headbutt a teacher - but I'd at least grab their hand or something if they started rummaging through my bag - fuck that noise.
Oh .... I'm sorry ... I can't give you my notes for the class. My dog ate them along with my homework ;-)
Come 2012 onwards to 2019, i think it lasts that long, any way .... viva la rapture.!
Also .... everything an economics teacher lectures is wrong, just look at wall st. Their moto is STEAL , LIE, CHEAT, get rich.
There is only one rule and thats supply/demand, and politicians manipulating the rest.
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
EVERYTHING can be found with google it is the ultimate oracle, the all seeing eye, the all knowing system, the beast with answers to all questions, just ask and yall shall get an answer in under 300ms.
Dont know something?, just ask google, what can a teacher offer?
Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
If this policy was not disclosed before class started, I'd fight it for sure. I still have all my class notes from 25 years ago when I was in college, and I consider them part of what I paid for when I went to college. I never did and still don't intend to give anyone else access to them. I paid for that knowledge.
If they get to the end of class and then tell you that you have to give back part of what you reasonably thought was what you were paying for, I'd claim breach of an implied contract.
And of course, I'd scan a copy in case they made me give up the original. Of course, anyone who intended to make copies available has already done this, so this policy is completely pointless anyway.
On that note, unless they're making you sign an affadavit to the effect that you're turning over all copies, it's probably a non-issue anyway except from a moral point of view.
Many responses here seem extremely excessive, especially on a site that is usually quick to criticise going heavy-handed with lawyers. Why go with the weapon of last resort and eliminate all the other options provided for the purpose?
Try being reasonable and diplomatic. That won't limit the heavier options later on and can actually benefit them - here in the UK you are generally expected to extinguish reasonable options before going to court (either way it'll certainly look better).
Try simply explaining that you require the notes to maintain the knowledge for use in later life and have no intention of handing it out to others. Carefully explain that the notes are your property, both physically (you bought the paper) and intellectually, making the position clear but leaving the teacher's own mind to envision the potential for legal action. You DID supply the paper, and there isn't any slide handouts in there, right?
If that still doesn't work, advise the teacher that she should not destroy the notes while you explore other options (being careful to be non-threatening). At this point there may be a more friendly teacher you could approach who may be able to mediate and tactfully resolve this without fuss. People change their minds more readily when it is a friend/colleague/peer presenting their perspective, and where there is minimal consequence from being wrong. Why be all confrontational? This goes both ways: it's an opportunity for YOU to discover you are wrong, in a manner with minimal consequences for you...
If that fails, keep elevating it one step at a time. That would probably involve a parent writing to the teacher, the headteacher and next attending a PTA/PTO meeting.
Still not resolved? No doubt there are still more options and then, ultimately, court and/or newspapers. The intermediate steps will only benefit these options, not reduce them.
Organisations and society in general provide numerous means, checks and balances to sustain your rights. It's such a pity when people ignore them and skip to the option of last resort - courts are supposed to be there only for when society and organisations fail to provide fairness and justice.
Can't these people consider proportionality and appropriateness? Is it really necessary to harm a teachers career and potentially the school for the sake of some notes, without even bothering to make some common sense attempts first?
It's a matter the police are less likely to be interested in than the head of the school.
While the OP has the right to make a police complaint, there's no reason not to go through the school first. I assume here that the aim is simply to prevent this teacher from doing this in the future. A rebuke from her superior may well have this effect.
Prosecuting this as theft would strike me as being the same attitude that has file sharers prosecuted using laws designed for large scale reproduction facilities.
The Supreme Court has been pretty consistent on this. A school administrator has the right to search a student when the administrator has a "reasonable suspicion" that an infraction has been committed. Police work under the tougher standard of probable cause. Students' writings are also generally off-limits, and considered personal, unless the admin has specific knowledge that the writings are the infraction... ex: Tipped off that a drug dealer has a "ledger" in his notebook. Sounds dumb, but I've been there... I believe the case that settled this was in New Jersey a few years back.
In my past experience- No search should ever be conducted by a classroom teacher. No search should ever be conducted without a witness. And most importantly- No search should ever be conducted without the reasonable suspicion that a student has actually done something. No "body" search should ever be conducted... ever.
I've been on the witness stand quite a few times, and the defense attorney always (read: always, always, always) goes after the legality of the search.
My opinion is that this teacher went too far... If she were one of mine, she would receive some instruction on her own limits.
Remember, a high school student has less rights on school grounds than your average citizen. Hell, they are really only a baby step above inmates really.
http://www.illinoislegalaid.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.dsp_content&contentID=2594
The teacher (if they are in Illinois, or any nubmer of other states with similar laws) was completely within their rights to search the bag and confiscate the work. What the teach may not have been OK doing is destroying those articles.
In any case, take it to the principal, if you make no head way there, the school board, and if you still get nothing, the local media.
It's really a shame that some sleaze ball teachers like this is dragging down the entire field.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
$title=invoke(class.economy="in soviet russia")
-
on a side note: maybe teh culminating insight
you get from going to this class is, that even
if you work hard, you don't get to keep anything
: )
font.size(4):i'm soo happy i don't need to go to
school anymore!
If you wrote the notes with a livescribe pen or something (which is fairly plain looking unless you really pay attention to it), because of the camera, there's a perfect backup copy of the notes in the camera. There are also clipboard/pen combos that do this.
So even without something as conspicuous as a notebook, you can have a digital copy of the notes without the teacher ever knowing. And lets not get into the old fashioned scanner or photocopier, but that requires conscious effort to make the notes.
The teacher just sounds like a paranoid nutcase.
That's right, you have absolute moral imperative to use force to defend your property. There is never any justification in making your objections known peacefully, and then perusing remedy under our system of laws. Because we live in an anarchistic state, your only recourse when your rights are impinged is violence. No reasonable person could deny that the sum total of upwards of 30-40 hours of your work demanded physical violence to prevent it's destruction, it's defence being paramount above all other considerations of law, order, or respect for the dignity and safety of other human beings. When you are absolutely certain that you are right, when the stakes are so high that such grievous damage would occur should you not act, you are not required to submit to a system of laws to validate your beliefs; you are free to enact violence to further your conception of the right.
What a perfect story for Slashdot!
It plays into all the things people here are most equipped to deal with. That poor teacher is so screwed; the combined resources of a world-wide network of indignant geeks versed up and down in the field of information rights. Could you ask for a better villain to throw such super-powers against?
--Though, I must say, my base-line response to post-secondary education red-tape idiocy is this: Stay the **** out of university! I find whenever friends complain to me of their woes with school administrators and teaching staff, I grind my teeth in annoyance because often the problems seem to me clearly ridiculous, petty and needlessly contrived. People arguing with enormous energy over things which not only don't freaking matter, but which DON'T FREAKING MATTER!! --Case in point: Why would anybody want to fight over a bunch of notes on a subject which, as recent history should have demonstrated by now to everybody on the whole planet, is based on a big, stinking mountain of illusions and utter, complete nonsense?
But I've mellowed over the years.
Have at it!
My response to your teacher, btw, would be this: "I didn't take any notes, you conceited wind-bag. Now get out of my lunch."
Well, okay. Assuming I'd actually taken notes, my response would be, "Are you kidding me? Seriously? This is a joke, right? How did you even get this job? You're a teacher right? What kind of engineering prof doesn't want- Sorry? What? Oh, hell! These cardboard lecture halls all look the same. --I was wondering why it was taking so long to get to gear ratios and other cool stuff. Later alligator!"
-FL
I know the majority of the focus of these comments are on the legality of the teacher's actions, whether or not it violates IP law, but how about the morality of it? I take a class to learn, to obtain knowledge, not to pass a test at the end of the term. I kept my notes from college so that now, 10 years later, I can still refer to knowledge that I paid for in college. Essentially, what this teacher is telling the students is that they are to learn and retain the information until the end of the term, pass a test, and then he/she doesn't give a damn what happens to that knowledge. Doesn't this violate the very spirit of education? In my opinion, this teacher should be ashamed. I would recommend that he/she find a new job. And yes, I'm a teacher myself.
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
Her actions are theft. If you really want to get into it go to her and ask for them back. If she refuses tell her the plan then go to her superiors and ask for them back. If they refuse tell them you'll go to the police and file charges. Explain calmly and rationally that "They are legally your property. The legal precendent has already been set and her actions will bring scorn, derision, and financial hardship to the school. How will your superiors feel about giving you a raise when you're incapable of smoothly running a simple school?"
If they refuse do what you promised. Make sure the media hears about it. Make sure you have other students that will back up your story. The school will lie and make up reasons to blame it on you. If one of them threatens physical harm it's now theft and assault. If they actually hit you it's theft, assault, and battery. Be prepared to get a lawyer or contact the EFF/ACLU for legal help. If all this is too much for you consider just giving up and moving someplace with a higher average IQ.
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
Or is at least getting paid moonlighting at some tutoring blog.
Hasn't this come up before in /. where a prof has claimed their lecture is copyrighted by some publisher so students can't copy it? Might be true regarding the contract the prof signed with the company, so it is up to the university in the contract it signs with professors to explicitly forbid this nonsense.
This is just an example of a lazy teacher. She's too lazy to alter her tests slightly from year-to-year. Either that, or she's too ignorant to figure out how to do so herself, in which case she's become irrelevant in today's world. But we're constantly being told about how underpaid and overworked teachers are. Riiight - subtract that 3-month summer vacation, and another 2 weeks at Christmas, and your salary is on par with the rest of the middle class...
Your teacher can ask for your notes - but I can't see how they would have the right to go into your backpack, or any of your private belongings. If it was the police, they would require a search permit. What this teacher did was illegal if they went into your backpack without your consent. I would seriously consider a lawsuit against the school for violating your right to privacy.
Beyond that, they can ask for the notes back, but it's your right to keep them. I don't care what anyone says about their lectures being "copyrighted" - BS! Those were your notes. If you took notes at the recent inauguration, do you really think Obama has the rights to take those notes away from you?
Talk to the dean. Let them know your rights were violated, and see what they have to say. Chances are this flaky teacher will be straitened out.
Remember when schools were about education, not hording of "intellectual property", or selling student information to the highest bidder, or forcing ridiculous, expensive, and useless courses (like an "Intro to Computers" that requires the purchase of Microsoft Office 2007 pro and a useless book from Sams)? Too many schools in the U.S. have been focusing on their bottom line for so long, they have simply forgotten what their original purpose was.
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -- "Step Right Up", Tom Waits
That's what it takes to get a front-page story on Slashdot? A virtually anonymous post on a gaming forum?
If you can find them, and no one else can help, maybe you can hire the A-Team. Cue music and various scenes of 80s violence.
Ya know, that's a good point. This is GOVERNMENT that we are talking about. A teacher can no more copyright her notes, than a Congressman can copyright his speeches in the House, or a president copyright his emails in the White House, or the FCC chairman copyright his documentations/rulings.
It's the People's property. All things in government belong to the people, and is public domain. Some of it might be kept secret for defense purposes, but eventually it gets released. This teacher is a government employee and all things she creates while on the government clock belong to the People, and in the public domain.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
You sound more like a child than an adult.
If this teacher was taking just the tests, that would be one thing, since reading the questions ahead of time would be cheating, but the notes? Complain to your parents, have your whole family complain to the principal and the school board. If they're not reasonable, complain in a letter to the editor in your local paper (assuming people read it). Some public exposure may just cause them to stop and think about this for the first time.
Put a padlock on your bags. When she goes to steal your notes, she has to become a safe cracker or have a knife. Most likely she'll take you to the dean's office, and "discuss" it there. Just keep refusing to open your bag and threaten to call law enforcement. It is your private property, the professor has no right to steal it.
Is what she wants legal? I don't know.
Is her taking of your notes out of your bag legal? Probably not. I don't know.
However, that she asks the question in the first place means that she doesn't want her students to learn. She just wants them to pass tests and graduate. She is not a teacher.
The purpose of teaching is to pass information from one generation to the next, hoping the next generation turns the information into new knowledge. People don't have perfect recall. They need notes and books to retain information. If the teacher doesn't want you to keep your notes then she is paranoid about cheating, and doesn't care if you learn anything or not. If I were a student, I would refuse and force her to take it to the dean, then to the police if necessary.
She's attempting to use the "security through obscurity" method.
As all of us who work in IT know, security through obscurity is not only the lazy person's security method, it also does not work, and creates conflict between users and administrators of the system through which the attempt to implement it is being made.
Weigh your options, what would non-cooperation cost you? is there significant outrage among others to stand together and make it an issue, or are your grade/graduation at stake?
I think the RIAA can help you!
They Borrow their music copies to you.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Along with that other story about schools swiping IP rights, this is the tip of the desperation iceberg.
Schools use the simple-materials classes like Math, Econ, Humanities, etc. to subsidize expensive stuff in the science depts.
But what we're darn close to is that an education consists of 2 books per class, 35 recorded lectures, and custom answers to 2 questions per lecture.
That is NOT "worth" $5,000 (1 quarter semester fee.)
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
I'm not an officially certified teacher yet, but one of the first classes you have to take in education training is a class on just this sort of thing; i.e. what a teacher has the legal right to do. Technically, since the teacher claims that the notes could be unfairly used in their class, the same rules could be applied that one would expect of a note being passed around in class. That logic allows the teacher to confiscate them. However, if the student, being a minor, were to get the support of parents/guardian, the in loco parentis rules that allow the former argument would be null. Thus, if you want you notes, complain to your parents!
I would have planted my boot in that professor's ass the second hands were laid on my private property - woman or no. She has absolutely no right to rummage through and seize a student's property and was obviously counting on her position as a professor to intimidate her students into complying with her bogus and illegal demands. If people weren't such sheep in the face of authority then shit like this wouldn't happen.
Power does not corrupt - power attracts the corrupt.
They are your notes as you wrote them.
But also, whether or not she had copyright over them, it's still illegal for her to steal them from your possession. If she actually did have copyright over them, she would still need to take you to court, and that would only allow her to prevent you from distributing them. No one can stop to from possessing or recieving copyrighted material. eg. It's not ilegal to download copyrighted content from a P2P network, but it is ilegal for the person distributing the content(if you're using bittorrent, you're also distributing it).
...and that is all I have to say about that.
http://jessta.id.au
I bet they don't know (and wouldn't approve) of this professor's policy. Go outside the chain of command, talk to a dean or assistant dean. Get your notes back: they're YOUR NOTES.
My notes are *my* property. If she/he held me down took them, id sue for theft and assault. ( in the real sense, not that abstract IP theft )
Furthermore, you paid for the 'knowledge transfer' so any so called "IP rights" the instructor had, was licensed to you, in effect.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
A student here in Arizona was strip searched at a high school because the school administration got a tip that she might be carrying and distributing prescription strength ibuprofen. The legality of this strip search has been contested and the case has made it's way to the Supreme Court: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/16/20090116school-strip0116-ON.html
That is High School. If this original person involved is in higher education, then the law is pretty clear: Search and Seizure without reasonable suspicion of a crime is in fact a crime.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
All I can say is NAACP.
You wrote them on your paper. You own the notes and this is theft. Did you sign any contract at the beginning of the class that would require you to release your notes?
Looking at the students is a great way to judge the quality of the teacher. It sounds like the teacher is dealing with a history of students cheating. This is a sign of the students hating the class and wanting to do the least amount of work possible. The teacher should work on becoming a better teacher instead of trying to force the students to not cheat. The school should use this as a reason to let the teacher go. Advice to the teacher: you should find a more suitable career. I hear the RIAA is looking for your very talent.
what about all the drawings on the sides of the paper? I draw all the time and i would be super mad if this happened, so yes I do think this is illegal and should be brought to
a. the dean/ principle and see what he thinks. then
b. a lawyer who may find this interesting enough to pursue it.
Also, this is quite honestly lazy ass teaching. Reusing 100% of the material year after year...? Hell no. Theories change, textbooks update, and teaching methods improve.
Not true for most of the state sponsored school running on subsidy . most of the time the whole administration from Dean to Teacher to clerk are their because of lack of other options. they don't care a shit. .irrespective of some god forsaken notes . apparently the teacher is not willing to do that . which is strange because such losers usually enjoy doing Q&A in a sadistic manner
whats strange in OP's case is that it takes 5 minute of Q&A session for teacher to judge if a student has ACTUALLY studiend the subject or not
somethings are best left unsaid , I am one of those things
I don't really see how that will help solve any problems. 9 times out of 10 when people share notes, electronic copies are posted on a noteswap site or emailed to classmates. At the end of each semester I'd simply throw away all the paper notes because I already had electronic versions of anything worth keeping, except for exams--but even then teachers would frequently scan those before returning them to prevent cheating in case you "found a mistake" in the grading. If having previous class notes would be so much an advantage for other students, then I'm sure students have already found a way to retain them or converted them to electronic copies for future distribution.
Specifically, high school or college? If it's college, they're yours and the professor may be guilty of trespass. If it's high school, you have no right to private property whatsoever. They can raid your backpack, trash your locker, steal your cell phone, force you to empty your pockets. As a high school student (in America, at any rate) you have no rights.
Now, if you want to talk ethics, that's a different issue altogether. I'm talking about the law.
Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
... if you're stupid enough and that willing to give up your civil liberties to a cardboard cutout that looks like an authority figure, you don't deserve any. If you want rights, you damn well better be ready to protect them. Otherwise, you're just a spineless whiner.
I wholeheartedly agree that the teacher had no right to take those notes - they belong to the students, pure and simple. It becomes the same situation as another student coming up to you and saying "Give me all your class notes for the year". If you're wimpy enough to just hand them over, then you just got exactly the freedom you deserve.
The crimes of eBay are a disgrace to it's pig latin heritage!
I did:
"Ownership of copyrights to works produced by enrolled students without the use of University funds (other than Student Financial Aid), that are produced outside any University employment and are not Sponsored or Commissioned Works, shall reside with the student creator(s)."
Looks like I own my work.
We don't need no... education...
Yes, but we need to make a strong impression on the offender and set an example to deter misbehavior by others. Nothing like cops leading her out in handcuffs. Maybe a night in jail would help.
Sound familiar? That's how a lot of schools think these days - about students, of course.
You agreed to a contract. You might not have noticed it, but you did.
There is always something to the effect of: "By registering for classes, (accepting admittance to, paying my bill, showing up for class, etc.) I agree to follow and abide by all school rules and regulations."
Trust me, if there was a "but I didn't sign anything agreeing to the rules" defense a student would have used it years ago when they were getting booted out of school for drinking, streaking, urinating in the hall, swearing, cheating or some other stupid offense. Just because you don't remember signing it specifically, doesn't mean you didn't.
Reading code is like reading the dictionary - you have to read half of it before you can go back and understand it.
So I typed all my notes into my laptop. The teacher wants that? She can pry it from my cold, dead hands.
in soviet russia .... teacher takes notes from you
now move along
A student goes into a school and pays tuition.
Tuition is paid to receive instruction, experience and knowledge.
Teachers are paid to provide instruction, experience, and knowledge.
For a teacher to take that away, or to force the unlearning, or to - in any way - impede the student in that process...the teacher has violated a contract, failed to provide a service, and should be sanctioned.
Did your professor forget about Google not to mention used textbooks? The proff is going down a slippery slope if I ever saw one. Taking up people's notes is just paranoid and stupid. The only time I experienced something similar was for a music appreciation class where to fulfill the writing requirement we had to keep a specific notebook of class notes for the TAs to flip through and check that we were actually taking notes. Complain up the chain. Better yet, get a group in class to complain up the chain, to the school paper, etc.
They got around that little consent problem.
IANAL, but it's time like this I wish I was so as to be able to take up the case. Abide by the school's rules? Fine. Show my where it's specifically published that a teacher can do this. And published ahead of time so they don't try and grandfather any such thing into place. And if it's not specifically stated in writing, show me here a teacher is allowed to claim - and be able to back it up in a court of law - they have the authority to create such a rule. That implies teachers have the authority to enter into a contract on behalf of the school, a contract that they themselves have drafted and chosen to approve without the school's lawyers. As far as I know, that might cross over the into the realm of legality as it relates to the union representing the teachers (such as the CFTA in California State University system) and being the authority to sign negotiated contracts on behalf of the teachers. When I was a newspaper reporter (I know, I know. Employed by a private company vice an educational system - which a lot of times receives federal money and so has a slue of federal rules under which it falls.) my notes were my own. However, the articles I wrote, belonged to the newspaper (with the exception of what basically amounted to fair use - I was allowed to use them as part of my portfolio when job hunting.) All of this is moot if such a rule _is_ actually in the schools rules. In which case, as has been pointed out, you are what is termed in Latin as, "Screwed" ;)
Bark less. Wag more.
Confiscation of class notes depends on your school, level of education, and location.
I am not a lawyer...
However, laws have been changing gradually giving parental and personal rights to schools and government. When your child is at school, both the child and personal items with the child can be deemed as property of the state. In some locations, laws give legal guardianship to the government and school during school hours.
If you are in college or university, a forced personal search and confiscation is usually not legal. A professor or school can make part of the curriculum (by syllabus, school handbook, etc), turning over your notes as part of your class grade. However, pre-notification of curriculum is required. Students have the right to make personal copies before turning in notes, or refuse to comply thereby accepting the grade punishment. Once you turn in something, all schools (including colleges and universities) own the copyright thereby preventing you from legally re-publishing the content. Turning in an assignment is an act of publishing and transfer of copyright. You can still have the copies for your personal use, just not redistribution or re-use as inclusion in other assignments. This means you can get academically or legally punished for plagiarism if you re-use any portions of your own work and notes.
It is unfortunate that parental and personal rights are being removed. Be aware of the laws that affect you and contact your government representatives about your concerns.
True that the notes are yours as work product and all that...the bigger issue is how "negative" this is to the whole concept of education, research and learning.
I know in my econ (and stats, etc) courses, I *often* referred to earlier class notes in subsequent classes. I think it is really appalling that a teacher would actively seek to strip students of their academic output.
I taught an introductory math class at the undergrad level for 6 years and every quiz, test, and exam was "open book". I also never re-used a test or a test question. Honestly,if you don't understand math, having the book won't help, but if you do miraculously learn it all within the duration of the test, you deserve the score you achieve because you learned the material; students could also "test out" at any time, but only 5 total did so.
I don't believe this. Did anyone read the original post (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10351058 [guildwarsguru.com]) before going on a rampage about first amendment rights?
The post author claims to be in high school, but later in the thread someone doubts their claim.
Be skeptical.
If you boldly searched someone else's personal property, right in front of them, in an effort to steal and destroy class notes from all of your teachers, what do you think their first retaliatory action would be?
Kid-proof tablet..
I agree with others that this needs to be reported to the school's governing bodies, and that if she ripped it out of your hands, well, you may never get them back if she's already shredded them.
But the question becomes: what is teaching? and what does 'learning' mean?
My uncle actually asked me a similar question earlier this year. He's a big-time construction consultant but is to teach a class at a college and wanted to know how he could make his notes available from the internet without letting anyone copy them. I'm unclear as to what proprietary information there might be on them, but I think this was also about limiting information for future classes.
Several people relate this to RIAA and MPAA legal motions and battles, and while it seems similar I'm not convinced it is the same.
But what is learning? Is it, as the government standards say, your ability to get a higher percentage of multiple choice questions correct? Ie. just enough for the state, city, or district to get the promised funding?
What is that threshold of literacy? Of learning? Of Education?
And, what people seem more concerned about, what is the most expedient method to qualify a million people a year that they do or do not meet or exceed those thresholds?
Or is that the same question as: how do you pass a Turing Test? Or maybe: is this the same question as the (apparently more necessary) 'build a better captcha' experiment?
8-PP
Insist on payment for the original notes. The teacher doesn't need to know of the copies. $10 per sheet would be a fair price to ask, but can be adjusted for tuition inflation. Copyright your notes.
photosMy Photostream
Even before digital cameras and scanners. When I was at university, dome examiners in written exams tried to keep students from reporting on the questions by collecting all the question sheets. Solution was to distribute the questions to a number of people tasked with remembering them and immediately after the exam writing them down. Needless to say, the student representation oirganisation has practically complete records on the exam questions, except for the foirst year where they tried to keep them confidential.
So, screw this idiot, make complete recordings and post them online.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
are your friend. She wants possession of your property, make him/her pay a fair market price. Keep the originals or the copies.
photosMy Photostream
Considering that it is a economics calls.
You should suggest the teacher should drop the plan and instead set up a class note market where students can sell there class notes.
That would encourage students to write good notes
to get a high price, and good student could buy several good notes, study them and then write a extra good note to sell.
Once again I am happy that I live in Finland where a university lecture is a public happening where anybody can walk in and take notes at will and have the law on their side (though I am yet to see this happen). I do think that actually taking something from inside your bag sounds a lot like theft.
Yeah, High Schools let worthless individuals "teach"
Back in my HS days, there were a few classes that had graded note taking. One was to exactly copy sheets of notes from an overhead. Just copy them. Then at regular intervals, the notebooks were turned in for a day so they could be checked for completeness and graded. We got them back to continue with the copying. I could see that in this model, we could grab a notebook from someone a year older and copy it all at home. We could then sleep in class but get our full notebook copying grade. That really doesn't seem like cheating though and that seems to be the definition of cheating to this teacher. I guess turning in the old notebook as our own would be cheating, but sounds impossible since the entire classes notes would be present on the first turn in day. I find that I do have a slightly better retention from writing something as opposed to reading it once. That is the idea behind the copying style teaching. I learn far better by actually doing hands-on exercises, but in biology that would cost more money than an overhead.
High Schools need better individuals to replace the bad ones, but the most talented folks can probably find better paying jobs. I had some wonderful teachers, and some horrible ones. The good ones held higher respect from students which was just about their only reward.
Well, we've only heard one side of the story, but: I doubt that'll be necessary. Talk to the department chair and/or dean, and they'll be as shocked as anyone else.
Stealing your students' notes is beyond the pale....
Fortunately, none of my professors have ever been asshats to this extent.
Though, I must admit that making packup copies is a real pain if you can't type 'em to begin with, and I'm assuming you can't type 'em (i.e. have a computer with you in class)
I can, and thanks to that, it makes the backup real easy. (copy to USB flash drive, copy to home computer's hard drive later) As y'all know, text files (whether .odt, .abw, .rtf or .doc) consume barely any drive space in this day and age. PDFs do, especially if the scanner's OCR sucks (not to mention the actual scanning work)
My university pays "regular" students in the class to compose a copy of the lecture notes for any students with learning disabilities in the class; I like that job and tend to take the opportunity to do that when available. (It's part of their legal disability-access requirements, and they like to hand off the job to their own students.)
Even though I'm being paid to take the notes in a clear employer-employee relationship, I still get to keep them! (I get online access to them along with the "target" students, and I can claim the originals at the end of the quarter. [Although I can reference the their copy if I wanted to, I tend to reference my own digital-file copies])
Their only big rule is that I'm not supposed to be double-dipping: that is being paid to take notes for them and then selling the notes to some other students on top of that.
I've discovered that I don't reference my notes a whole lot; the act of writing them down (and paying enough attention to write them down) is where a lot of the learning value comes from.
I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
I've seen professors who don't let students keep their tests, which I think is reasonable: writing new exam questions every year is difficult (IAAP-- I'm "lucky" that I'm an adjunct who teaches at a different school every year, so I can carry old questions over from other schools, but should I get a full-time position somewhere my work is going to get a lot harder around exam time), while reusing questions allows you to "beta-test" them. That's fine.
It's absurd to collect class notes, though. Ignoring the legal aspects of authorship, what is the teacher saying that is so secret that it can't be found in a standard economics textbook? I'd love it if notes from my class were disseminated, because it would give future students one more reference they could turn to when something isn't clear. (Ultimately, I'd hand out a copy of my own notes at the beginning of the semester and spend the rest of the time asking and answering questions and clarifying them, instead of wasting time giving definitions.)
Cheating technology has improved by leaps and bounds over the past few years, however, and teachers who can't keep up with it all, particularly teachers who aren't computer-savvy to begin with, are likely to feel overwhelmed. In such circumstances, it is natural for a few of these teachers to start panicking, try some extreme measure to curb cheating, and not consider the ramifications. They need to be talked down, but only another teacher (or principal or dean or whatever) is going to be able to do it.
Yes, it is a contractual obligation that you will abide by a school's rules and regulations while in attendance. However, a teacher/professor/etc. still has no right to request or order you to surrender your notes. Your notes are your own, you took them. How do you know that by surrendering those notes that professor isn't going to use them for a book? Maybe she's looking for a student's view on economics and is hoping to find it in someone's notes? A teacher wanting to go into your personal effects without either school security present or the police is asking for trouble. Tell her you are going through her purse looking for stuff.
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
I forgot to add in my previous post that ALL government school materials are PUBLIC DOMAIN. Just the same as the records of Congress, or the ruling of the courts, or the FCC regulatory meetings are all public domain. A teacher can no more copyright her speeches, than a congressman or legislator can copyright his, because they are all government employees - all servants of the People.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
The article is interesting, imo, because of how far reaching the consequences can be. What if you made copies and this teacher latter found out, could you be sued? What about audio notes? I know a lot of people use recorders for class. Some even use video recorders. What if you take your notes on digital media, how do you go about turning those over? What if you outright refuse, does she have a right to recover the notes by force?
Personally I think that, unless you sign a contract with the school covering what you can and can't do with the notes, etc. there is a long standing precedence for students keeping their own notes that would stand up in court.
The authority highschools have over students in the US is weird. For example, they can (or feel they can, the case is still pending http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/16/teen.strip.search/) strip naked a 13 year old female student and search her because another student said she gave out 400mg ibuprofen pills. In any other setting, the people doing that would be thrown in jail for many years for sexual assault and be branded as sex-offenders for life. But in this case they said it was a reasonable step for student safety.
Taking notes out of a personal backpack is nothing compared to this. I doubt anybody with any authority to do anything about it will care in the slightest, unfortunately.
The US is one of the few governments in the world that doesn't allow its self to have copyrights.
My what in Australia?
I agree completely. It is very important as an academic to ensure that this instructor's behavior is not tolerated. Your school most likely has a well-defined policy for behavior, and what many people often fail to realize is that this policy cuts both ways. It lays out expected behavior for both students and teachers.
When I was a college sophomore, I took an introductory geosciences class to fill a gen-ed requirement. Now, most of the people in this class had pinned their hopes on a curve in this class, but I enjoyed the subject material, and in general, I took my studies very seriously.
However, around the time of the midterm exam, I came down with a horrible stomach bug, and was unable to attend class. I contacted the professor ahead of the exam, and had even made the effort to get a doctor's note. But the professor actually had the gall to tell me "tough luck, kid" in writing. I wrote a letter back to the professor, copying both my advisor and the Dean of Students, citing portions of the Undergraduate Code of Conduct (the "arbitrary and capricious" part was the money quote), and pasting this nice , little "tough luck, kid" part into the letter.
Within 24 hours the professor had scheduled a time for me to do a make-up exam.
It may seem like students often get the shit-end of the stick, but keep in mind, these people work for you, even if they don't always act like it.
My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"
That is not a more important question than violation of property rights. If she took your notebook without your permission, she stole from you. Very easy answer. The notebook is your property.
You mean: Most schools claim to "own" everything you produce.
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
What about the poem I composed in the margins of my notes ?
What about the bank account numbers I wrote down because I was thinking about economics ? What about the pictures I doodled because I was bored ?
The teacher shouldn't be sued. She should be arrested for petty theft. Students have a right to be secure in the papers and affects.
I have and have had friends with memory problems. May be due to injury, or to genetics, but either way they become expert note takers.
Could this be considered a hinderance to such a person's education?
-Frank
>> COPYING A FILE IS NOT THEFT
If the copying is unauthorized, it's theft of VALUE. If it didn't have value, you wouldn't be copying it.
I'm certain that this situation wouldn't apply in most schools, but I took all my notes on my laptop (and continue to do so through college).
Good luck trying to get on my laptop without my permission. I'll get violent.
Also, about the backpack, I wouldn't have let the teacher go inside. I would rather be kicked out of school and sue them then let a teacher think he/she has the right to go in my personal property without my permissions.
:(){
Yeah, but that is a lot different than the school claiming the rights to a student's work. Claiming that one is the author of one's own schoolwork would be only with utmost difficulty classified as "academic misconduct".
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
This is not legal. This is theft. You wrote them they are your notes. Report this to your local news papers and radio stations. They are always looking for stories with local colour especially the type that show abuse of power.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Everyone knows backpacks are property. Property has no sexual rights. It's no more sexual assault to force open someone else's backpack than to force open someone else's dog or farm anima... oh wait, I see your point. Nevermind.
-davidwr, people for the ethical treatment of inanimate objects
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I don't even understand the point of the exercise. Presumably the teacher will convey the same information to the next class they teach. How do the students cheat if the material is freely given? And your handwritten notes are obviously yours, your interpretation of the lecture you attended. This sounds like a teacher's ego run amok.
1.) The original victim should immediately report this to the proper authorities.
2.) The original victim was correct by not fighting back. A little physical resistance may simply be blown out of proportion and end up in unintended consequences. For example, if I block someone with my shoulder, I can easily send someone to the ground. If they are intent on forcibly removing your items, make sure it is witnessed or by another person of authority. Being alone with a teacher is like being alone with most slashdotters, you will suddenly be covered in Vaseline.
3.) Before completely vilifying the teacher, the full story should come out. The teacher may not be allowed to change the curriculum. Most teachers are in a no win situation, as the school boards prefer mindless automatons as both students and teachers.
Yeah, I went to Penn State.
According to some of the Profs there they had the power to fail us for plagerizing our own work if they thought it was too close to something we did earlier.
It was rationalized as we would be stealing copyrighted material that we, in theory, had the copyright on, from ourselves. Thus a crime. That could, worst case scenario, lead us to be exp
Must be a college mindset....
This was a number of years ago before some of the sociopolitical changes that led to TFA's situation.
In my case we agreed to it beforehand.
I was taking advanced organic synthesis, and what we had to do was make a new molecule, something that had never been made before (or, less attractively, had never been made by that particular route.)
I chose to make explosives. My girlfriend at the time chose to make methamphetamines. The teacher talked it over with each of us and we agreed, in writing, before we started, that when we finished the school would confiscate and destroy our notebooks and reports... but they let us do it.
The material we were producing was clearly dangerous, but in both cases they were novel syntheses that fulfilled the criteria for the class project. We knew that the work we were doing was going to be destroyed at the end of the term before we started. It seemed fair to me.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
What if the teacher was acting on an unwritten school policy? Maybe the school's lawyers know the school cannot legally enforce such a policy and rely on the teachers' authority and the students' ignorance to enrich the school?
All data is speech. All speech is Free.
where an off topic flame war about America's school system, started over a post, from a submission, about a post, on an unamed forum, from an unnamed person, about an unnamed teacher, at an unnamed school, in an unnamed country, which may or may not be the USA, is considered "news".
Seriously, grab the teacher's bag and take the notes back. If she threatens you with a bad grade, report her for the child porn you discovered in her bag.
Some schools are privately owned, however.
Your ad here.
There are no universities or colleges that are part of the United State's Government. All public schools are State schools. The provision in the U.S. copyright law that prevents the United States Government from obtaining a copyright -- thus putting the work into the public domain -- does not apply to state governments. Professors absolutely have a copyright on their class slides and books they write.
Only 120 characters... who can summarize their entire world understanding in 120 characters?!
You hit the nail on the head here. I have a small file drawer dedicated to all the homework and tests I had in high school. I really don't need them anymore, but they have served as a great -simple- reference source for years.
If I didn't have them, I'd be dumber than a box or rocks, always trying to re-figure things out, revisiting a library or trying to buy more books to re-learn things. By keeping both my notes and my tests (yes, from a day in history when teachers would actually let you -keep- the tests) I have been able to quickly go back to a particular thought or idea that builds the foundation of knowledge.
I've had University level courses where the instructors wanted to review your entire course work at the end of the semester, by turning in a notebook with all your notes and course materials. In every case, those were -always- returned to the student.
The teacher in this example should be counseled and corrected before it escalates into something the school district will regret.
It matters.
The lazy and dishonest story invites a lazy and dishonest response.
Being who I am, that teacher would not manage to get my notes, no matter what the teacher did, unless I got killed. So be it. (I would still have my digital notes, on my fine little backup server, in my house) What I fail to see is how this would prevent cheating at all, because the teacher would have to teach the same material the next semester/year anyway. Teacher should be fired (with a canon), towards the Bay of Pigs.
Any other subject I would say to fight this situation. But economics is a subject that is best taken not too seriously. 'Garbage in; Garbage out', not ceterius paribus is the key phrase in Econ to remember.
Econ students have the dubious distinction of being one of the few disciplines where the theory that they are being taught in school is directly contradicted in real-world newspaper headlines. Then, 10 years later, people get PhDs explaining why the previous theories were 'incorrect'.
Are you being graded on your notes that you are surrendering to the so-called teacher? If not, then don't take any notes. Econ is mostly bullshit anyway. Just give back to the 'teacher' on your final exam the same nonsense that was fed to you in class?
Might I ask, you aren't going into debt to pay tuition for Econ classes? If so, change your major soon. Bullshit is like software; it should be free. Don't get fooled into paying for economics classes. Study something that will actually pay for itself in the future. I suggest studying advanced electro-chemical battery technology or mag-lev railroad engineering.
From the moment they entered primary school 15 years ago, they have been under the boot of a "one-strike" "zero-tolerance" public school system
You have officially scared the shit out of me. The first of my three kids enters kindergarten next fall, and I don't want him to be a mindlessly obedient robot, but I agree with you that is the natural consequence of these stupid policies.
I'm a big tall mofo.
I have a high capacity scanner at work and have been on a binge of scanning old course notes to pdf because I want to get rid of physical clutter. I've often wondered about the legalities of:
1) sharing the pdf (anywhere from posting on an online bulletin board to bittorrent)
2) modifying the pdf first and then distributing it
3) copying info to text and editing wikibooks
Notes are typically copies off of things written by a professor with my own notes and interpretations added.
Dates were often written in the upper-right hand corner, so that is something that would demonstrate a specific connection of my university and me. But if those were removed, how could they prove I have ever gotten the notes elsewhere?
Even if I made no modifications and there were obvious references to where the notes came from, do universities have the right to demand their removal?
I've never known a university have a problem with students sharing course notes. Are universities suing or disciplining students who ask for help with their homework outside of a university-sanctioned forum?
Textbooks are written by people who have taken courses, worked and have regurgitated the information themselves (with shiny new examples).
Philosophically, I've always believe the argument that "all learning is plagiarism" is technically true. Even though I am a freedom/learning junkie, I realize my ideals, legalities, and what actually happens can be three different things.
This was at the higher-ed level? I could imagine this from a paranoid high-school teacher...not a higher-ed professor.
My Analytic Geometry teacher in high school was so bad that students, parents, and teachers alike hated her--the only reason she had a job was because no principal wanted to take action on her behavior, including calling students "stupid" in class. She allowed graphing calculators on exams, but she insisted on clearing their memory before the exam, to keep students from using programs.
I told her in no uncertain terms that she did not have permission to alter the memory on my personal TI-82. Thus, she was forced to loan me a TI-82 from her "classroom pack".
Did the class syllabus say anything about notes being collected at the end of the semester? Probably not. High school and higher-ed, syllabi are typically considered the Word of God(TM) as far as complaints to the dean/principal are concerned.
If I had an instructor, high school or higher-ed, who tried to confiscate my notes at the end of the semester, I would walk out of the classroom before letting him/her take my notes.
Having worked as an administrator and professor for more than a decade I can tell you of the wild and crazy things that professors think they have the power to do in their classroom. Granted, there is a great deal of leeway when it comes to grading and course evaluation, but they cannot violate your rights. You are not in high school anymore and you are no longer a minor. People can't take things from you without permission! Regardless of their position. Those notes are invaluable and may serve you many years from now. It's usually a poor teacher that resorts to this kind of nonsense because they are lazy and don't want to create new tests every year. With information technology it is really not that hard to circumvent this type of cheating. The math department at my institution created a database of questions more than 10,000 strong that they use to test and quiz students. The likelihood of a student in successive years using someone else's notes to pass a test is near impossible. You either know it or you don't!
Interesting. Which state government runs West Point? How about CUNY?
Or am I missing some clever, subtle trick in your seemingly weird apostrophe placement?
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
IP Law? There is no IP Law!
Intellectual Property is a deliberately misleading term created by the media owners.
It is not recognized in the law, as trademarks, copyrights and patents are completely different under the law and have entirely different origins.
Please Read this article.
This is true, teachers have the copyright to their works, not to that of their students. You still cant violate the protections of the Fourth Amendment - Protection from unreasonable search and seizure. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. To take someones property from their backpack without their permission would make any University President shake his head and call the lawyers for the expected fallout of violations of the 4th amendment rights of students. This student should make it publicly known that the teacher has violated a students 4th amendment rights and that the student is looking for others to bring into a class action against the school for damages. Bet the teacher will no longer do anything of the sort ever again.
"Remember, politicians and diapers should be changed often and for the same reason."
on your computer. Or in something else, also on your computer. Then send your work to yourself in e-mail. Legal or not... Nobody is going to take away from me things that I wrote. To much of MY TIME and MY LIFE and effort went into it. Even if I just copied it from somewhere. I have a copy of every math homework I ever handed in during my two and a half year of study. And all the notes. Even the ones I turned in and the lecturer kept, as a part of my examination (excepting only those that I wrote with pencil in a three hour written exam).
I'm disregarding the legal question on this one. I consider this to be my personal right and there is nothing anyone can do about it, simply for the practical reason that it's already been copied, by me, into too many places.
Unless explicitly agreed to in advance (before any fees are charges for the class), you have the right to take any notes you care to and to keep those notes for as long as you care to. You even have the right to sell copies of those notes to others (they are your original work).
The professor going into your backpack to grab those notes without your consent is theft. If you're holding or wearing the backpack at the time, it is a mugging and you are entitled to use reasonable physical force to defend yourself and your property. If you are not, you have the right to grab it away from her and any attempt to stop you is an assault.
In other words, tell her they are your notes and she may not steal them. State that you intend to defend yourself. If she persists, try to leave. If she attempts to detain you, push her down, leave, and file charges promptly. If you callot push her down, try a hard open handed slap.
In other words, use the minimum physical force necessary to leave the area safely then file criminal charges to establish her as the aggressor. You can always drop those charges if she chooses to admit wrongdoing and apologize in writing. Probably a good idea to lodge a complaint with the administration as well . That along with criminal charges on record will discourage retribution. The administration will be anxious to avoid a lawsuit.
Typo on the apostrophe... shouldn't be there at all.
To answer your question, CUNY is a part of the New York State government... though it appears there is some funky overlay with the City of New York. But, then again, NYC is also a part of the New York State government, so I imagine that all works out in the wash. Never forget that in the United States all local political units (county, city, water board, school board, etc) are considered to be sub-divisions of the state government.
As for West Point, I'm going to hide behind Wikipedia and say that West Point is not a University or a College, but is, in fact, a Service Academy :) But yes, West Point is an organ of the federal government and thus the creative works of its employees would not be eligible for copyright.
Only 120 characters... who can summarize their entire world understanding in 120 characters?!
I accidentally the whole wallaby.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Reminds me of the stories about Andrew Galambos. He was nuts about IP, at the point of changing his name because it was the same as his father's.
He's been rightfully forgotten, but if anyone wants to take a peek at how brain-dead this whole IP thing is, here's a famous essay by Harry Browne.
http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/Galambos.htm
All public schools are State schools.
Eh, tricky word there, 'All'. US overseas bases have public schools that are run by Uncle Sam.
But what we're darn close to is that an education consists of 2 books per class, 35 recorded lectures, and custom answers to 2 questions per lecture.
That is NOT "worth" $5,000 (1 quarter semester fee.)
That isn't what you payfor. If that is what you think, then take the Good Will Hunting approach and get your education at the college library.
What you payfor is two fold: The diploma with what ever name-brand institution you went to, AND the professors experience in the field to strain through that 1000 page text book to tell you what is really important to the future of the field, and get you through the hard parts.
And no matter what commodore64_love thinks, this is not a typical employer-employee relationship. You are not the cutomer, and you are not always right. You are there because they know more than you, and they have been doing it longer than you (with the exception of my 100 level CS courses, but I probably could have tested out if I had been diligent enough).
It would be like Brittanica demanding Wikipedia hand over all their hard drives for destruction, because there might be a hidden .HTML file on them (not published, but used by an editor as a reference) that had some text copied from a Brittanica article.
State Legislators, State Governors, and other state employees are ALSO not allowed to copyright their speeches or documents. They are just as much the people's employees as the Federal level officials.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
That's pretty scary! In Portugal (I believe in the entire EU) that's illegal. Even a cop can't force you to let him read your notes/cellphone/laptop/wtv without a warrant.
... the security.
Listen you privileged asshat. I understand you've never set foot in a bad neighbourhood, but I have. Lucky for me I got through my schooling without being stabbed, drug addicted, or getting someone pregnant. Cause of my pure mono-focused drive to get the fuck out of such a shitty environment, I managed to study hard and get into a good university. If my school didn't have the security level it would have been lord of the fucking flies and I imagine things would have been worse off for me. Yes it sucks, but fucking deal with it. It's better than the utter anarchy that would come from no security. Of course you assume that it wouldn't be that way, cause I'm thinking that you believe in the blank slate "humans are naturally good" line of thought. Perhaps rather than shooting your mouth on /. you actually go in live in a high crime area for a year, and then let's see you get butthurt over security then.
Can you cite a law that makes that so? You'll find the U.S. government prohibition in Title 17, Section 105, and an explenation of that clause in the accompanying House of Representatives Judiciary Committee Report.
As the significant other of an academic at a state university, I would be awfully surprised if you could. I think what you might be able to say is that as employees of state governments the copyrights on those works belong to the state governments in question... and thus it is up to the state governments whether or not the works fall into the public domain, are assigned to the original author, or whatever.
The standard pratice at the University of Washington -- where I attended and wrote software as an employee -- and at the University of California: Santa Cruz -- where my partner works -- is that the original author holds the copyright and neither the State nor the University has any say in what happens to those works.
I don't disagree with the sentiments that the work should "belong to the people", but I am saying that, in practice and in law, it's just not the case today.
Only 120 characters... who can summarize their entire world understanding in 120 characters?!
and this offtopic
Common law has always held that handwritten notes are above reproach. If your teacher steals notes from your backpack, he or she, her department and your university are offering to pay for the next nine years of your Harvard education, IMHO. Think civil lawsuit.
``Tension, apprehension & dissension have begun!'' - Duffy Wyg&, in Alfred Bester's _The Demolished Man_
Instead of assuming that you are in a real-world, just environment, I'm going to answer this question in the context of a public high school -- and suggest a few courses of action that are more appropriate to a high school.
Some things to take into consideration:
First, in a high school, the standard for allowing a search is much, much lower than it is in the real world (and this is probably why police have such an easy time getting people to consent to searches.)
Second, schools have the right to seize property, even if it is not being used for unlawful activity (for example, most schools reserve the right to confiscate cell phones.) However, AFAIK, schools don't have the right to destroy this property on a whim.
Are these the teacher's notes, or yours (ie, did you copy them verbatim from a powerpoint the teacher made)? This probably makes a huge difference.
What to Do: Regardless of rather the teacher's actions were legal, there are some approaches that almost always work:
1. Get a (cheap) lawyer and have them send a letter on your behalf from their offices to the school's principal threatening legal action against the school and the teacher if the property is not returned in-tact. CC the teacher. This might not work, but it will mean that the teacher is unlikely to destroy your property, which buys you some time for the option options to work.
2. Have your parents send a letter to the principal explaining the situation and why you think it is unfair and detrimental to your success as a student (for example, "these notes would have been invaluable in a college econ class.") Principals usually love this crap. But make sure it's from your parents -- schools tend to ignore students.
3. If and when both those option fail, Have your parents send a letter to all of the school board members expressing your discontent with the situation, and explain that it hinders your ability to succeed in both high school and college. Tell them you want someone who is willing to stand up to rogue teachers representing you.
4. If and when that fails, have your parents contact the local police department. Report a theft.
If not your teacher is guilty of theft.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Really! for my $5K I also want the life experience and expertise of the professor, certainly more that 2 questions per lecture.
At the place I am at now 1/2 my "Class Time" is actually Study Team - They have the students teaching the students. For accreditation a school must provide 8 hours a week of instructional time. these guys do 4 hours a week and call the time the study team meets (4 hours, right?? sure) the remainder.
Right.
that's what campus security is for. They're not really cops, so you're not actually filing charges, but if you file charges and they have seen the professor with your notes, in class, then they have to testify against him.
Then you will get the dean's attention rather quickly and have the upper hand because the teacher actually stole from you.. instead of the teacher going to the dean to get the notes from you...
no, he is correct. The teacher absolutely broke the real law when they took the notebook out of the bag. Had there been a Macbook Pro + software, iPod and iPhone in there, that's easily into felony grand theft territory... the same as if they broke out the window to your car in the lot to get your notes.
The school has procedures to get the notes from you.. the TEACHER didn't follow them. They broke a law that means jail time. They're more "adult" than the student... even if they really think they're right they need to do the time for their "civil disobedience".
Call me silly, but I thought the purpose of taking a course was so that you could continue to use the knowledge AFTER you pass the course, not to just pass the final and forget everything. Apparently, the teacher is confident that the course material, as taught, has no real-world value.
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
The look on the teacher's face would spur quite a conversation if they looked at my notes before trashing themn. Most of my notebooks tended to look like one of the following, especially in the type of class where the professor has it in their head that the material is only useful to pass the final exam:
1 - "Illuminated Manuscript" like the monks used to write when everything was hand-transcribed. Lots of big fancy letters, terribly intricate drawings filling the margins, Escher-esque impossible contraptions, stick figures in unfortunate predicaments.
2 - Homework for other classes
3 - Personal side projects (I wrote a saxophone trio in my Programming Languages class... or was it Database)
4 - What notes?
-- I prefer the term "karma escort."
West Point is not a college/university, it is a military academy.
Your prof/teacher needs to come up with some different exams, sounds like she's rather lazy if she is worried about one test. You can go to most university libraries and pick up a binder full of old exams. You have to remember, you are the customer paying for her to be there. I'd consult with the deans office.
Those are not mutually exclusive categories. It is accredited, it issues bachelor's degrees, it is a college.
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
While the OP has the right to make a police complaint, there's no reason not to go through the school first.
Of course there is: it was an official from the school who committed the crime! Wouldn't it be convenient if more senior officials from the school, faced with damage to their organisation's reputation on their watch, could just hush it all up and brush it under the carpet, probably while black-marking the "trouble maker" student(s) who object to the abuse?
I'm frankly staggered that so many people on this forum think this behaviour was in any way reasonable or acceptable, or not worthy of a criminal report against the offender. The teacher not only stole a student's physical property and invaded their property, they destroyed the records of many weeks of study, something priceless that cannot be replaced.
The teacher concerned is so far beyond what is reasonable or within their authority that they should not only lose their job but be sentenced to a significant penalty and criminal record, to make it abundantly clear to them and their peers that this sort of thing is not acceptable, particularly for someone in a position of trust who is supposed to be a role model for children.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
First off, to answer your question: No Motherfucker, she has no right (ethical or legal) to do this. You created those notes, so their your property. Hell, copyright law would even apply here.
Second, it's a sad state of affairs when these sorts of incidents beg the question if they can be done. Society is becoming a bunch of pussies when so-called authority figures stomp all over ("walk" doesn't convey enough malice) people who then ask timidly, "Was I wrong???" God damn, people need to grow some balls and tell these narcissistic meatheads to go Fuck Themselves 8 Ways to Next Sunday. This goes for everybody with some bullshit title; lawyer, judge, cop, president, teacher, etc.
The pussification of Humanity continues uncontested...
If every dead person can read hex, then the answer is several millions (however many people have died, plus 1). However, your question is non-sequitorious, because many, many living people can read hex, at least 2B that I know of personally (or maybe it's not 2B; that is the question).
You *lend* it to them. They borrow it *from* you.
Laws vary by state, but it's hard to imagine that going through your backpack without your consent and taking things out of it is anything less than criminal anywhere in the United States. In California, it would be felony robbery, at least, and felony assault if the teacher touched you to force the issue.
Ask the university if they want to discipline the teacher, of if they'd rather you ask the police to do so.
I never said the teacher didn't do something wrong, but as another poster stated, the proper course of action would be to go to the dean of the school first.
What benefit is there going to be besides waisting tax payer money by going to the police first?
Ask the dean of students why you're being denied the privilege of keeping your notes, as has been standard practice at every university on earth for hundreds of years, and whether this university has any interest in student retention of knowledge, or whether it has merely become a certification program. Then, ask the dean why that teacher has not yet been brought up on disciplinary action.
Incidentally, there's no need to go to a lawyer; Rutgers students settled this finally in 1997. Those notes are your property. She has neither legal nor ethical right to ask this.
To be clear, I come from a family of academics, so when I say that this is in my opinion worthy of challenging someone's tenure, understand that I take that statement very, very seriously. Demands like this are fundamentally unethical and she should be at risk of losing her livelihood for this.
Pity we don't know who it is. I'd love the opportunity to speak with the requisite dean.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
"Unwritten policy" isn't policy. It's "guidance."
Bark less. Wag more.
anything you come up with is entirely your own property.
Not according to my university regulations it wasn't.
Not to throw water on the fires of righteous indignation, but... did this incident actually happen?
There are no links in the summary. I tried searching Google for phrases quoted in the summary. I couldn't find anything that wasn't a repost or link back to this Slashdot thread. No sight of the original forum post. Granted, it may not be indexed... but it's a little weird.
(The reason I went looking, BTW, is that it isn't clear from the summary whether this was a college professor, which everybody seems to be assuming, or a high school teacher, which seems more plausible to me. I have trouble imagining a college-level instructor even trying, never mind getting away with this. By contrast, I have little trouble imagining this sort of story being spread without verification.)
If it's higher ed, then your school will probably have an ombudsman, who is the student representative in cases like this. If you are in high school then you need to contact the principal or assistant principal (whichever one usually handles student affaris - usually the assistant). You should contact that office immediately and see what the process is to get your notes back from the instructor. I work at a university and I can tell you this wouldn't fly. You will need to look and see if your backpack is considered private property (your locker, if you have one, isn't - it's school property). If worse comes to worse and the administration doesn't listen to you, and you are in high school, have your parents take it up with the parent-teacher association.
As far as I'm concerned any person who receives a paycheck from a State Treasury as part of a job is an employee of the People, and therefore the works they create while under the People's employ belongs to the bosses (us). After all, WE paid the bill that produced the documents.
Anyway I searched but found nothing about my local states of Maryland or Pennsylvania. I will assume that unless a MD or PA document explicitly states "copyright" then it is public domain. I would refuse to let any teacher tear-up my notes. She can be damned.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Prosecuting this as theft would strike me as being the same attitude that has file sharers prosecuted using laws designed for large scale reproduction facilities
Nope. The perp didn't make copies of the student's notes, she stole the notes, right out of their owner's backpack.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
She took items of negligible value.
Yes, this is wrong, but you seem to equate it to stealing the crown jewels.
So a couple of things.
1) Students in a high school do not have the same rights to privacy as students in college/the general population. What might normally be unlawful search and seizure may actually be allowed (see eg random locker searches).
2) Preventing cheating is a legitimate and compelling interest. I picked those words carefully. Why? Because when the court needs a test to evaluate a practice, those are two of the levels that they look for. Now, is this the least restrictive means? Probably not. But the school could argue that it is, as it does not force anyone to do any extra work.
3) It would be very nice if teachers could rewrite every class every year. But that's not the most efficient. Think of it this way: do you write code from scratch every time? Or do you copy and paste on occasion? Teachers are also taking questions more and more from the standardized tests that students will have to answer. Sometimes there aren't enough for multiple tests to be made.
Everyone is quick to criticize teachers when they see something go bad. No one ever thanks them for everything that they do that benefits society. That's why so many of them leave the profession.
IANAL, but I am a law student and a former teacher.
I have no friends. Will you be my friend?
...because the very fact that you have to ask this question indicates you never received an education. At the very least, get the refund back from your "American Government" class.
I said nothing about your notes... and neither did you, until just now.
A teacher can no more copyright her notes, than...
(emphasis is mine)
But yes, I wouldn't allow her to destroy my notes either. Doesn't change the fact that her notes are her notes, her writings are her writings, and her books are her books... and she may do with them as she pleases. I think you'd also be very surprise to see how little tax-payer money actually ends up in the form of professor salaries, so be careful throwing around terms like paycheck. You may not like what you discover.
Only 120 characters... who can summarize their entire world understanding in 120 characters?!
Since there are no Federal Universities, only partially federally funded universities, the point is moot--faculty, etc. fall under the work for hire exemption, just like Harris does when it writes software for a radar under contract.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
Is how Alan Cox became a kernel hacker.
How is studying notes from a previous year 'cheating' anyway? Isn't that...um..studying?
Okay, studying previous tests might be a moral gray area, and lazy teachers might attempt to stop that in some way other than simply changing the test. But notes?
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
I paid money for that economics course.
I took my own notes.
I paid for the paper.
I paid for the pens, binders, bags, time, etc.
They are mine.
You want to pay me a full refund, plus interest?
THEN and only then are the notes yours, if I agree.
I would fight that teacher, read the rules again.
That teacher would feel my legal aid punches and kicks and everything else that I could legally do.
You didn't mention if you are taking a university course or college course. Maybe that doesn't matter.
In my personal opinion, she is a control freak and needs counselling.
Actually you pay tuition for the opportunity to gain knowledge. Payment of tuition does not magically download knowledge into your brain: you still need to put considerable effort in!
That being said I find it rather sad that a professional educator should act in this fashion. If my students found my notes so useful that their friends not in my course wanted copies I'd frankly be extremely happy that I'd done my job so well! As for recording lectures I think that is a little different since you are taping the persons voice. Here in Canada that requires the persons consent as a matter of law (privacy laws). As a matter of courtesy though I would expect to be asked. I've never refused anyone (and I'm now starting to podcast them myself on iTunesU anyway) but so may and should be allowed to do so.
In college, a few classes I had were apparently "kind of difficult." So much so that an off-site store paid students to take copious amounts of notes, then this store would take them all, collate them, and publish them for others to use. I used the service for one Art History class (the professor sped through lectures and it was often difficult to take down everything he said--I guess a tape recorder would have done wonders there).
The pages were Red, the print was some other odd color, and it was so that you could not photocopy the pages. I believe it also had a note on there saying to not copy, it was copyrighted, or something like that.
Also, I was always told to rewrite your notes once you got home, after school. By rewriting them (in another book, or typed down, to be more legible), you could flesh out your thoughts, and be able to read those in the future. And in this case, you could then keep them. They are your notes, your take on the class. Most students should have the same take on the class, though. Still, if you have to refer back to those notes in the future (Say, you take Spanish I, you would need those notes again in Spanish II), without them you would be FUBAR. I can't see giving up notes you could need in the future.
If the teacher wouldn't change the tests each year, I think that is his problem, and the school's, and not the students'. That would mean the teacher would be cutting corners. It just doesn't seem right.
And the teacher going into your backpack without permission and taking something that didn't belong to her seems illegal. I could see a teacher going into a locker (you are just using the school's space, its not YOUR locker), maybe a desk that you had (again, school property), but not your backpack. Its like having a teacher pat down a student to find something in their pockets. A backpack is not school property, and they should have no rights to search that (unless there is a question of something illegal, in which case I'd think they would need probable cause, and maybe the school cop or something--and if nothing was found, nothing illegal, they shouldn't take anything else.)
...You still cant violate the protections of the Fourth Amendment ...
Anybody that is not part of any governmental body is NOT bound by the fourth or any other amendment. Congress can and has made laws that extend specific portions of the constitution to states and in some cases to private entities. So a private school can make rules that public schools are forbidden to make. Private schools are allowed to and do teach religion as part of their curriculum and may allow their teachers to confiscate student notes. Such policies are generally bad even though legal.
If someone in my house gets loud and boisterous and refuses to shut up, I have the option of picking such a one up by the collar of their shirt and throwing them out of the house just like I might do to my cat when he gets obnoxious. It is probably a good idea to first ask such a person nicely to leave on their own two legs. The cat has learned make a quick exit on his own in the meantime, knowing what may come next.
All theory is gray
From the post:
"Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge?"
No. If the answer to this is Yes, then what the hell is their job? Babysitting?
"How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge?
She (I assume) didn't invent the economic theories she espoused, so how does she have any right to ownership?
"Whose property are those notes?"
Silly question - the notes were written on paper bought by the student, using pen/pencil bought by the student, written while attending a class they paid for with the express understanding that the teacher wanted them to learn what was taught, without exclusion or exception as to the manner the student choose to accomplish this.
Maybe she should just man up and make a few different versions of her tests/examinations.
Ken
This is a story of national importance. A professor has no right to seize your notes; they are your property, not hers. Telephone the New York Times. Explain what happened, give them the name of the professor and the college and university. Tell them to keep your identity as their source confidential. Sit back and watch what happens next. I would predict that the professor will be required to return the notes.
While I'm at it, for some unknown reason my partner left a copy of Dr Seuss's "Oh, the Places You'll Go" on the kitchen table. We have no offspring, not even a pony.
The copyright notice contains a summary line:
SUMMARY: Advice in rhyme for proceeding in life; weathering fear, loneliness, and confusion; and being in charge of your actions.
Here's a few lines that had me do a double take about whether this was the Wall Street edition.
Wherever you fly, you'll be the best of the best.
Wherever you go, you will top all the rest.
Except when you don't. ... (turn page)
Because, sometimes you won't.
You'll come down from the Lurch
with an unpleasant bump.
And the chances are, then,
that you'll be in a slump.
And when you're in a Slump,
you're not in for much fun.
Un-slumping yourself
is not easily done.
(turn page)
Until Uncle Sam ...
Oh, wait, that's not what it says. It is the children's edition after all.
Seriously, they should reprint this thing with an extra verse or two. There are a lot of alpha achievers out there right now who could use it, who valiantly fed the majority of their recent accomplishments into the paper shreder just in time to preserve their pristine track records as upstanding members of society.
What exactly does "being in charge of your actions" entail in modern society? One school of thought is capitulation and deceit. It's bad enough that the private sector communicates these values so successfully, without our universities aiding and abetting.
She took items of negligible value.
You might be able to argue that, if the perp herself hadn't considered them important enough to steal. She wasn't grabbing a scrap of paper to wipe her nose, she was stealing someone else's work to deprive them of its contents.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Public schools are government institutions. As a work generated by a government entity, lessons and lectures are defined as being in the public domain. The teacher cannot legally confiscate these notes under any pretense of copyright, because they have waived all such copyrights by virtue of having made such work under contract to such an agency.
In other words, IF this is a public school, the teacher can't do that, and needs to be slapped down.
Furthermore... why do they care if future students read the same notes? If the notes are effective at teaching the information, then the student who took them has actually written a successful (in the educational sense) textbook and deserves a great deal of praise, not punishment. The only issue that could be caused is if students record test answers in their notes, which is easily (and comedically) resolved by slightly changing the questions between semesters (ie. make superficial changes to equation values, reorder multiple choice questions, etc). They are just being lazy and/or paranoid, and in any case doing great harm to the goals of public education.
Of course, if this is a private school, then the above may or may not be moot depending on all sorts of whacky stuff. If that's the case, good luck and godspeed.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
By the way, the original post for this can be found here so that the student can read your responses: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10351058
and go somewhere else for your learning.
A teacher's duty is to teach and not to police information.
I can't believe all the stupid shit I hear from the slashdot nerds on this incident. Call a lawyer. Punch her in the nose. Have a hissy fit and call the ALCU.
To all the ALCU nerds, I applaud your dedication to the greater good. I just have no personal interest in being a hero. What's the first thing a bank robber says to bystanders? Don't be hero. Heroes get shot.
Didn't anyone learn anything from Ender's Game? Actually I think Ender's Shadow is a bit more helpful. You gotta build alliances. You gotta manipulate people. First you need to have a good, or at the very least, a neutral reputation. If you have already caused a bunch of problems for everyone, and no one would be willing to help you in your endeavor to destroy the teacher, then fuck it you lost, retreat and plan for your next encounter.
Your best weapons against enemies is ridicule and scorn. You have to make fun of enemies so that everyone can see how weak and full of shit they are. You need to isolate your enemy. Make sure she doesn't have a friend to turn to, because you've been busy making her seem foolish and stupid. You, as a young kid have an advantage, in that you have more leeway. You can be more vicious, because you're a kid. Nobody will expect you to be completely moral. The teacher on the other hand is expected to be the bigger man, so if you can just push her a little off her teacher ethics you can isolate her with less.
Your first task is to turn the students against her. This would be most effective, if and only if, you can make the case that she is the only teacher who can't control her students. If the whole school hates every single teacher, the teachers will gang up and you be unable to get any of the teachers to break rank. The next step is to get the rest of the teachers and staff to turn on her. From what I can gather the teacher is this old lady who's been there too long, and has gone crazy with power. The other teachers probably resent her for sucking at her job and taking their place in tenure. Remember the teacher that had a bible on his desk? The administration turned on him so fucking fast it was hilarious.
It's all about manipulation. It's your job to make her seem unreasonable using humor and other people's prejudices and at the same time make yourself seem completely reasonable. So let's imagine you were eating lunch at the school cafeteria and you turn your back on your backpack for one second then turn around and you saw some person you don't know digging through you bag. What would be the correct response? You say, very loudly so other people can hear, "Excuse me what the fuck do you think you're doing!? Are you going through my bag? Are you looking for my wallet?" You then proceed to beat the living shit out of him because nobody likes thieves. Now, obviously you can't beat the living shit out of an old lady who controls your grades and might potentially have friends in the administration. Everyone would think you're a young punk and they'd send you straight to juvi and ruin your life, because from their point of view, your life doesn't matter.
The correct response when the teacher went into your bag would have been "Did you just go through my bag? Are you feeling alright? Maybe you should see a doctor because disregard for common social norms like not going through other people's stuff can be an early indicator of dementia. You don't want people thinking your some old bag lady that's completely unaware of her surroundings do you? There's this crazy woman at the supermarket that keeps asking me to accept Jesus as my savior. Finally I just told her that I was Jesus and that I've come to take her to the rapture. And she believed me!"
Later after class, you approach her when you two are alone. You pretend to be contrite. I'm sorry I was rude earlier. I've been so angry lately. But really, you shouldn't do that sort of thing, reaching into people's backpacks. Listen I'm willing to not make a big deal out of it, if you just leave me alone.
Then you get h
If someone steals from me, they are going to get a police report, and at the LEAST a complaint to their superiors (I agree Dean is a good place to start). But if that complaint does not bring satisfaction, then it escalates to higher levels, up to and including criminal charges. Which the REASON for the police report in the first place (note that I initially stated report, not charges).
I do not care who it is. Nobody has the right to break the law by stealing from me or otherwise causing me harm, with immunity or impunity. I do not care if it is a tenured professor, or someone on the Board, or a policeman, or a councilman, or a Senator. They are going to get charged exactly like anyone else would. And by damn, if they gave me further problems I would raise a real stink that would not blow off for a very long time.
People need to stand up for themselves more than they have been in recent years! Your attitude is exactly why bad people get away with the shit that they do! You are a coward (or teach others to be), ready to give in when anybody in "authority" intimidates you. Shame. That is not how justice is supposed to work in this country, and attitudes like that are exactly why half the asshole criminals get away with it. People in authority positions should be good examples, and the bad examples should be strongly discouraged. Nobody expects saints, but this was a pretty extreme case.
A teacher can no more copyright her notes
Those are not the teacher's notes, they are the OP's notes and that is a big difference. When you take a note you just don't do an exact copy of whatever it's on the board (most of the time ;), you combine what you hear, what you see, and most important what you understand about whatever topic you are being teached, so a note in my notebook it's actually the result of a thinking and analyzing process, my product, therefore those are my notes and I own them. I don't see how could anyone force me to surrender them just like that. I don't see the difference from an IP point of view of my notes and those of a Calculus book, they are both based on previous work, but try to convince the author to surrender his original manuscript.
I see a lot of comments about what seems to be only a hypothetical question at this point. What school did this occur at? Why don't I see any references on the web that don't link back to this slashdot story?
Better turn over your brain too, then. Preferably out the exit wound of a .44.
My advice would be to file a police report, talk to a lawyer, the Dean and the head of the college. Demand your papers back. You own them. If you don't get the grade for the course you expected, complain about that as well. Be reasonable at first. Ask nicely for them back. If they have already been destroyed, ask for compensation. The amount of the course may be as much as you can get. If they assert they are right, you must show them the error of their ways. Don't let her off. Prosecute her and put her in jail for theft. She is not entitled to go through your bag and she had better know that. If your keystone cop campus police won't do anything, don't get discouraged. Go to the city, county, even state police. It is important to be nice about it at first. She probably thought she was right. Then be not so nice about it, then go to the police. It could get ugly. You may have to transfer to another college if you are at a small college. In the end it will be worth it.
Of course I have to presume that everything you told us is right.
As someone who has taught 4-H students to people professionally in the past, what is the problem? So what if they use your notes? If they are taking the class and can learn by someone elses notes, more power to them. I really don't understand what the big deal is. Now if they plagiarize your work, that is a different matter. Having been accused of cheating my freshman year in College and cleared, it was a terrible thing to go through. On the other hand, I would like to take those that cheat and keel haul them. Then execute them. Do the time to learn the stuff, otherwise do something else. Too many people have positions they shouldn't have because they cheated. They hurt the rest of us.
This is not the case. Universities are not necessarily government institutions. There is a very special role of intellectual property in universities that is generally very carefully respected in the interests of the furtherance of science and literature (a value enshrined in your constitution).
Anything that originates from an author, including a professor, is copyrighted and owned by that person. There are exceptions for when a worker creates materials under a contract (like a journalist, or tech manual writer for a company), but generally professors are exempt from this and own the copyright of what they create.
If the professor created the lecture, s/he owns that lecture outline. You as a student however can make your own notes on her lecture and generally you will own the copyright on your own notes UNLESS you copy her words down verbatim AND she has speaking notes from whence she makes her lecture. If she has no notes and is merely off-the-cuffing, you STILL own the copyright even if you copy down those words verbatim. The distinction lies in whether or not the professor has fixed her work in the form of notes, such that your copying down what she says could be argued to be derivative of her fixed notes. That would be violation of HER copyright. However without those notes, her work is not fixed and therefore not subject to copyright.
The school does not, unless a special agreement has been signed, which is generally not the case for education institutions, by the professor. The work is not likely to be public property nor is it in the public domain. Otherwise, every piece of research by professors would be public domain and therefore immediately usable without permission by anyone including for profit. Obviously, this could never be allowed.
if the professor needs to take the notes to avoid cheating then that means that prof. is not a good teacher.
That only applies to the federal government. State governments/local governments can still hold copyrights.
At high school I went on a two or three week school trip and they had us write in a journal every day of the trip. At the end of it they took them and never gave them back.
Who did this? At what school?
Many American universities, including the public universities in Massachusetts where I teach, have published Intellectual Property policies. At mine, the University acknowledges the faculty members' rights to scholarly works and course materials which they create. The policy also acknowledges student ownership of material they produce in taking courses. Certain written materials, notably software, are asserted to belong to the institution if they were produced as a work for hire, e.g. during student employment, research grants, etc. It has been asserted for faculty, any software relevant to their job, or any thing other than the exempt works that was produced with substantial use of institutional resources, e.g. a faculty member's university-owned computer.
See, for example,"Exempted Scholarly Works" in http://www.umass.edu/research/intelfac.html
Undoubtedly students at all universities and colleges agree to be bound by the policies of the institution as a condition of enrollment.
In many courses it is pretty reasonable to use much or even all of a previous incarnation of the course, but only a lazy teacher would give identical assignments from year to year. It's pretty trivial to recraft assignments so that it is easy to detect that a student couldn't or didn't figure out this was not identical to last year's and instead turned in a solution to last year's assignment. There's really no good reason to try to make students give back their own materials, or even the course handouts.
Assuming that the notes don't include copies of the tests, which is unlikely, what exactly would other students do with the notes?
Student might use the notes to help them learn the subject, but that's what the teacher is supposed to be encouraging them to do. They might also learn how to take better notes by having an example. That's something else the teacher should encourage.
And... umm... that's really it, isn't it? There's nothing else relevant to a class that can be done with someone's notes.
Tell her to fuck off. Seriously, is this a joke ? Why would you let her go through your binder ? Do you just do anything someone says to be nice ? Go to her office and demand your notes back. Don't leave until she gives them to you. Take it up with the head department. Ask them what kind of fucking crock "school" they have. Is it a degree mill where you pay for a piece of paper ? You can get those with mail order you know. What a fucking joke.
In Soviet America the banks rob you!
...this story will enter the realm of "Urban Legend", and every student who is the least on the ball with either scan, photocopy or transcribe to digital their class notes for all their classes.
And then, hand over their paper notebooks with a smile.
Now, given THIS scenario , anyone demanding I hand over MY 'notebook' for destruction is in for a very hard time, indeed.
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
You and dead other people is deae.
Wooosh!
Actually there is a big difference between those people. First of all we don't know that he even goes to a public university, so therefore the teacher may not be a state employee. The other difference is if it was a public school they would be a state employee, not a federal employee like a Congressman or president. The Copyright act provides that works of the federal government are in the public domain, but says nothing about state employees. Therefore states do own the copyright of the works of their employees.
When I say public university I saw Econ and assumed university, but my comment would apply equally to secondary schools as well.
I was always hoping GEOS would become a competitive mass-market OS for larger machines. Seeing a full Mac-style GUI on a C-64 that actually worked (in lower res) was one of the most amazing things I'd ever seen on a computer. Not that this did me a lot of good, since I already had a Mac by then and I was having to run ECAD apps on it, something I doubt anyone ever tried with a Commie64.
Tech Public Policy stuff
The School Board is the LAST resort before going outside the district.
Depending on the size of your high school, start with the department chair, then escalate to vice-principal, then to principal, and only if you don't get the answer you deserve at any of those steps should you go to the school board.
Most school board meetings are public anyway, so the very act of going to the school board pretty much guarantees some level of media attention.
The teacher slowly approaching a student with a baseball bat in hand: You must forget all you've seen and heard in this class... and ve have veys of helping you...
Such school's rules and regulations may be illegal and unenforceable, however. Even if there are rules in place, if those rules contradict general public laws they would be found to be unenforceable.
In terms of note taking, a defensible argument could be made under the terms of a "freedom of the press" situation, where not only are confiscation of notes illegal, but prohibiting the dissemination and publication of those notes could be illegal or even unconstitutional. Basic civil rights don't end when you become a student.
I find this whole situation to be appalling from a purely academic viewpoint as well, as a school/university ought to be a place to encourage the sharing and exploration of knowledge, not a place to demand "rights" that are non-existent on the part of a professor to shut down the sharing of knowledge.
I understand issues of academic integrity and worries about students "cheating" on exams, but a good professor who has professional competence has many more tools available to deal with those issues without having to resort to confiscation of notes. Having multiple exam texts with randomized placement of questions or even wholly different questions that vary from one student to the next are just a couple of examples. But I guess that takes work on the part of the professor to put something like that together.
Trust me, if there was a "but I didn't sign anything agreeing to the rules" defense a student would have used it years ago when they were getting booted out of school for drinking, streaking, urinating in the hall, swearing, cheating or some other stupid offense. Just because you don't remember signing it specifically, doesn't mean you didn't.
The issues of drinking, streaking, and the other things you've mentioned can mostly be found to be illegal and/or disruptive behavior in the first place. I would like to see you go before a judge with a straight face and suggest that defecating in a hallway is a legal action or something constitutionally protected as free speech. Yes, I know that was used in defense of streaking back in the 1970's, but idiots who did that legitimately ended up in jail under indecency laws that had nothing to do with university standards. Expelling a student for becoming a criminal was then completely justified as well.
The taking of notes, however, is a common act that is normally encouraged and even expected of most students. In this case, I think it is the instructor who would have a hard time trying to explain to a judge (who has had plenty of experience as a college student themselves from first-hand knowledge) that a student wanting to keep notes is wrong. Certainly the act of taking notes could be considered normal and not an illegal activity, and it would be the confiscation of the notes that would be unusual and have to be defended.
The other issue here is in terms of changing the rules after you have started. I have had employers and even landlords who have tried to amend a contract after I have signed on the line, suggesting new policies or conditions to the contract. It may be a similar kind of condition that exists here for the note taking unless it was clearly expressed at the beginning when the syllabus was disclosed to the student (typically on the first class session). Even then, such rules established by a single instructor may be contrary to school policy, law, or even unconstitutional as the prohibition of note taking may be seen.
Unfortunately that is true, and that is only the federal government as well.
I wish state governments were forced to relinquish copyright for "content" developed while performing official duties, but that is usually not the case. I think California does prohibit the copyright of official government documents as well, but not all states are so enlightened.
Since there are no Federal Universities, only partially federally funded universities, the point is moot--faculty, etc. fall under the work for hire exemption, just like Harris does when it writes software for a radar under contract.
Actually, there are federal universities of various sorts, and schools where 100% of the employees and funding come from federal sources.
To name off the top, the military service academies like West Point, Annapolis, the Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, and the Merchant Marine Academy are all federal facilities who answer only to the U.S. President and Congress. There are also schools within the various federal departments intended mainly for internal training, like the FBI Academy, the Forest Service Fire Fighting Academy, or schools under TRADOC for the Department of Defense.
This doesn't imply that professors at these schools (yes, many of them have PhDs or the strong equivalent) have to give up all intellectual property by teaching at federal schools, but federal universities do exist in the USA.
Your [sic] an idiot.
Harris is not an employee receiving a Treasury check.
The teacher at a government school is. She has no more right to copyright her lectures than a legislator can copyright his speeches & forbid them from being coped into the daily record.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
"Professor salaries?"
We're discussing a government-owned high school. Just as a state legislator (government employee) can not say, "Do not record my speech into the daily record," neither can a government teacher tell her students, "You can't record my lectures into your notes." All work product paid by the taxpayers belong to the taxpayers..... at least that's the case in the U.S. A legislator can not copyright his speeches, nor can a judge, nor can a government teacher.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
The school is supposed to be teaching real-world applicable knowledge, and tests are supposed to check about the amount of this knowledge. Now we are talking about notes pinned down by some basically clueless students in a high school class given by a teacher.
We can assume with some certainty that this teacher is not so much above the rest of the world in knowledge about the science that what rubs off on some student is of higher quality than all the books you could acquire on that knowledge.
So it would appear that the tests to be taken don't check for actual knowledge, but for attendance by measuring the amount of buzzword compliance achieved with the teachings in class.
That means that either the tests don't do at all what they are supposed to do, or the teaching. Or both.
For most of my written university exams, you were allowed to take whatever material you wanted into the exam except for telecommunication devices. Including your own or other people's class notes and arbitrary books. Class attendance was mostly at the students' discretion.
And I had one oral exam where I wanted to get the course scripts (basically class notes written up and handed out by the professor), not having attended the class since its time slot was inconvenient and off-site learning quite effective for me, and discovered that this course did not have any, contrary to what is customary here. And I did not know other students in the class. So I prepared for the exam based on the title of the course, using third-party literature and other sources.
Turned out my best exam in the whole degree: the professor was rather invigorated not having to cut through the layers of rote learning before being able to check out what actually usable knowledge was there to work with.
Contrast this with the teacher confiscating the notes: she does not know how to test for anything but the rote knowledge, and has to make sure that the rote knowledge does not get spread outside of her class so that she can safely identify her version of it.
In short: it very much looks like she has no clue about the subject she is supposed to be teaching about, and has no clue about testing about the subject she is supposed to be teaching about.
Instead she turns tests into an eco-system for testing mental class attendance.
I consider it likely that examining her for competence in the material she is supposed to be teaching would not yield a convincing outcome.
...You still cant violate the protections of the Fourth Amendment ...
Anybody that is not part of any governmental body is NOT bound by the fourth or any other amendment. Congress can and has made laws that extend specific portions of the constitution to states and in some cases to private entities. So a private school can make rules that public schools are forbidden to make. Private schools are allowed to and do teach religion as part of their curriculum and may allow their teachers to confiscate student notes. Such policies are generally bad even though legal.
If someone in my house gets loud and boisterous and refuses to shut up, I have the option of picking such a one up by the collar of their shirt and throwing them out of the house just like I might do to my cat when he gets obnoxious. It is probably a good idea to first ask such a person nicely to leave on their own two legs. The cat has learned make a quick exit on his own in the meantime, knowing what may come next.
On this, you are flat out wrong on almost every point you have made here. No organization, public or private (at least in the USA) has the authority to usurp fundamental human rights as guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution, and particularly the 14th Amendment has been used to imply that federal authority on this matter as supreme precedence. State governments are bound by things like freedom of the press, freedom of speech, rights to peaceably assemble, and yes, require judicial oversight (aka a warrant) for search and seizure. You as a private citizen can't deny these "rights" to others either by your explicit actions either, through contract, employment, or other rationale.
Private schools are given more latitude in terms of teaching religion or other similar academic subjects because they aren't an arm of the government and indeed the schools are protected because they are free to worship religion and give instruction about it as they are not establishing a state religion through such actions. That isn't the same thing, and BTW, public schools can and do teach about religion as well. One of the best theological classes I ever had was a course on the History of Christianity at a state-run university.
As for private schools permitting instructors to confiscate student notes, I contend that is an illegal act based upon the 1st amendment clauses of "freedom of the press" and "freedom of speech" that exist in most modern democracies today, and not just the USA. The fourth amendment is just icing on the cake as the instructor shouldn't have even attempted to confiscate the notes except by getting the "university police" or some other agent of the school involved, or by at least allowing the student to appeal the action to the department head, school dean, or other university official.
As for what you can do if somebody gets loud, obnoxious, or refuses to leave your house once you ask them to go, you can't just "throw them out". Asking politely is nice, but if they are being intransigent and refuse to leave it is your option to call in law enforcement officers to escort them off your property. You can't lay a hand on them without you in turn being guilty of assault.
This also applies to a professor at a school, as they shouldn't go in and take things. If a university police officer does that, then the officer is the one who can get into trouble for an illegal seizure and not the professor... when the officer with proper training is likely to tell the professor to get a life in that sort of situation.
As for your cat, you may be subject to animal cruelty laws for your actions as well. Yes, I toss cats out of my house too, but a gentle shove out the door is all that is usually needed for my cats.
...no rights, only priveleges. That's the teacher's job, to prepare you to fit into society later on. Become a compliant, obedient, brainless consumer-citizen.
From a purely ethical and academic viewpoint, I don't understand the concept of restricting the sharing of information in the first place.
To me, the role of a university ought to be about a concentration and sharing of information between fellow scholars, of which the professor is merely the more experienced and knowledgeable about the subject than those of the students (usually).
This incident, to me, sounds more like a professor on a massive power trip trying to assert authority that doesn't exist in the first place. Copyright authority may be grounds to prevent a verbatim publication of what was said in class from being made outside of the classroom, but note taking is clearly acceptable under numerous clauses of nearly any copyright legislation that has ever existed. Fair use rationale alone should be plenty of reason for why a student can and should be able to take notes home and do with them as you please.
I really don't understand what the rationale is that a professor can demand that all notes be returned for destruction, or what good it actually accomplishes. To me, you should be strongly encouraged to organize your notes in such a way that you can refer to them, potentially, in future professional situations if such a need arises... even if you never really look at them again after the class is over.
Even a completely verbatim duplication or even recording of the lecture (aka with an MP3 player or some other similar device) is legitimate fair-use for educational and personal use. You just don't have the right to in turn post that recording on a website without permission, but that isn't the issue being addressed here.
I don't get this, since she can't do her job by randomizing tests, quizzes, etc then she wants to destroy the vary knowledge she spent all semester to impart on you. I would call the cops or at least ask the dean to investigate. I do know that last semester my Calculus teacher stated to ask before taping his lectures, something to do with copyrighted material - not so much his lectures but the material covered in the textbook is copyrighted. Which I still don't get? Well, that's not true I do get it I just don't want to. I hope Obama is going to really look at the Patent System, and Copyrights. Honestly, though I don't think so it's going to take another 20 years to rid ourselves of this mentality but, I fear, after that this type of thinking makes someone money they will be the one to oppose any change.
Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
You have a warped understanding of both the scope and the intent of the Bill of Rights.
Yes I can. If I grant you access to my land per the terms of some contract, you are bound to that contract. If the contract states that personal property you have on you may be searched without warrant or cause, it may be. You are not required to be on my land.
How you can apply the First Amendment to this I have no idea, so I'll quote it for you:
The key word is "Congress". Private school != Congress. You may be thinking of the Fourth Amendment since you mention confiscation, but that does not apply here either.
With public schools the line is somewhat blurry as they receive federal and state funding. It is perhaps even more so at the K–12 level as states have compulsory education laws (though private schools are an alternative).
Some other things you got right, but it almost seems like I'm feeding a troll here.
No existe.
I am a professor. Unless you signed a contract that gives him the rights to those notes, he can NOT demand them from you. They are yours, protected under copyright. Even his copyright of lecture is mitigated by the educational right of use, and you have the right to take notes, and those notes belong to YOU. He CAN demand things like all exams be returned after they are reviewed by you. They are his, he created them, and he can demand them back to keep future students from gaining access. He can not, however, demand your notes. This is illegal, unless of course, you give them to him. I would report this to the proper chain of command. His boss, then the boss's boss, until you get satisfaction, even if you have to go to the school board or the police eventually. WHat he COULD and SHOULD have done is have you sign a contract that you will not share your notes to future students of your class. This professor is paranoid (even more than me) and isn't very smart. I teach Computer Security. The stuff I teach can be used to secure networks, or break into them. Each of my students signs a contract that they will not use the information learned in my class for illegal purposes, or face repercussions such as failing, expulsion, or even be reported to the authorities. However they are also free to take notes or even record my lectures. If I give them information only to take it away from them later, how are they going to be decent security people in the business world?
Open Source: Eroding the Digital Divide
Basic items that are spelled out in the Bill of Rights are so fundamentally basic that it is implicit that they may not be violated under any circumstances unless there is a strong and compelling public interest to the contrary... aka yelling "FIRE!" in a public setting when nothing is burning (context applies here too!)
In terms of the application of the 1st and 4th amendment rights between private persons, any contract that would violate these basic rights including the right of search and seizure are invalid and would be found to be illegal. You can deny entry to somebody who chooses not to comply, but you can't do a search after you have let them onto your property without due process and just cause. It doesn't matter if this is a private school or an airport, the same principles apply.
Any contract that requires you to either perform or go through a process that is illegal is null and void. This is like saying that it is valid to sign a contract permitting you to get raped whenever you get onto some piece of private property. Yeah, I'd like to see that one get enforced.
BTW, the 1st amendment issue here is in regards to the use, transcription, and publication of lecture notes. I am asserting here that the student is free to take legitimate scholarly quotes of the professor and to use them in the process of note-taking that not only can't be confiscated, but can even be published commercially if the student desires. There is nothing even a private school can do to stop such actions by a student, as it wouldn't even be copyright infringement as long as the student follows legitimate fair-use practices. A school policy to the contrary would be found to be illegal, even at a completely 100% privately (not even federal student aid) funded institution.
By accepting the tuition and application of the student, the school/university has an implied contract to teach the student, so they can't even expel a student for violating such a policy that prohibits the keeping of notes.
You paid for this knowledge not only with tuition but also with the sweat and tears of interpretation and they are now your notes and not the teacher. I was a professor for 37 years and never encountered such fascist behaviour in my career. I would go to the Dean of your faculty and make a formal complaint..this professor is way over the line into theft of property and needs to be disciplined by the administration. I have absolute certainty about this. Do yourself and other students in future a favour by not allowing this to continue. You have rights that when I was a student were not recognised and to this day I wish that I had pursued equally egregious acts on the part of at least one professor during my academic journey.
If you feel strongly - contact the school and see what, if anything, they will do.
From there - contact the next class, alert them and see if you can get graduating people to take the class and then publish the notes on a web site to create a legal fight.
when I was finishing up my degree in finance at texas state university last year, I had a professor that forced us all to sign a waiver at the beginning of the semester. This waiver detailed that all notes taken and all lectures given were the sole property of the professor and at the end of the semester he took up all our lecture notes. He also never let us keep our tests or any other hand outs that he used. He also said that if we sold our notes or recorded lectures to any note website databases, or he found notes from his class anywhere online he would sue us. He had actually left his previous university after taking 3 students to court in which case he won his suit but i think it rocked the boat a little too much at the university which is why he came to texas state.
The whole premise is that situations are variable! My statement was exactly as vague as I had intended... on purpose.
Dear Friend,
I think you have a nutty teacher who is being unreasonable. Therefore, be gentle and compassionate. You could photocopy your notes and hand over the originals, or you could object and keep your notes, which sounds better.
What you should do is write the teacher a letter, and deliver it in person and state your case. Give her the letter instead of your notes. State that it is her responsibility to alter her tests per semester and that if in concept, this is not doable she may wish to check the method used in her academic industry and specifically, university teachers of economics, because it appears that she is not following standard protocol. You may also wish to suggest that there are many ways for her to separate the wheat from the chaff in her students, many ways to test or check their knowledge. On this, she has some work to do.
Be kind. In conflict resolution, it is best to address and fix things at the lowest level.
Good luck.
Signed, Listener
If this is a public institution, then you can't have your property or liberty taken without due process.
We had a fun lecture or two on a situation involving a state college expelling a student without due process in my Admin Law class. Yes, such institutions count for purposes of due process caselaw. In the case of a loss of property though, the best you could get back would be the commercial value of the notes, which should be zero if you have a university honor code or something that prevents reselling notes, so this would largely be a dead end.
Fun story, though.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
If you are really interested in finding out if the search is in violation of your Fourth Amendment right or if you have ownership of your notes contact your nearest ACLU chapter.
...we would have beaten than sucker of a teacher down if he even would have done so much as touched us. Needless to say, it was a pretty rough school.
The teachers had not much power over us. Except for the nicer (and normally more educated) ones, that we respected. But they would never asked for bullshit like that, because they were too intelligent for this.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
I'm from Wisconsin and here we have "no right to defend property by intentional use of force likely to cause serious injury or death."
That statement is preposterous and I would love to see some case law that backs that up. Also, how many 'government' schools are there? Do you mean Federal government, state government, or local government? I won't hold my breath.......
If it really bothers you to lose your notes then talk to the teacher. They should be understanding since most kids that want to keep their notes for reference really don't help cheaters. The going into your bag thing really bothers me. Its not an invasion of privacy, shes not the government. It could be seen as theft and trespassing. For a teacher to feel powerful enough that she is above common law is extremely disturbing. Plus she should be acting like a role model and not a felon.
Rape is illegal, yes. So a contract including something like that would indeed be void. Searching property, however, is not illegal.
Here is a small collection of sources that refutes your argument:
http://www.barronstad.com/res_044.htm:
http://www.courttv.com/archive/legalcafe/home/search/search_background.html
http://www.hklaw.com/id24660/PublicationId1691/ReturnId31/contentid47764/:
Related:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause
Different Amendment, but still relevant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Cases:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_power_of_enforcement
No existe.
Some literature about this fact would be nice.
How about handing in a notebook full of doodles and tic-tac-toe games?
You have a case, if you live in the USA....(mostly anywhere else they enforce human rights too).
The problem is that you would have to be vigilant about not letting go of your case or backpack.
Once it was taken away to retrieve the notes, and taken out of the bag, by that time it is too late, and can only speculate what was taken.... this is the problem for anyone saying they have a right to search your bags, in a shopping mall or store before walking in etc...
You have rights, the bag belongs to you, if you have anything you wrote, she can not force them from you, but being a kid in a school, not really knowing how far you can push defending your bag and your rights, most people will let the person take the bag, that is the first mistake, then
acting and telling you this is ok, is the second mistake, most young ones believe this to be true.
Recourse after the fact is not worth much time or money, so good luck finding a lawyer, maybe a pro-bono straight out of university wanting to make a change, but good luck none the less.
Another sad point is that the attitude of many organizations is to immediately go into cover-my-ass mode. So while you're trying to address things reasonably, they're already prepping ways to hammer your and/or bring in the lawyers to drive things home. At least if you get a lawyer's advice ahead of time, he/she can tell you what *NOT* to say or agree with.
That's not to say that you should hit the school with a lawsuit right away, but seeking legal counsel might not be entirely unreasonable.
This gets into really esoteric points here. You are arguing that such a search and seizure of what is obviously personal and private property is allowed by private individuals.
I am arguing that such an instructor or school administration that dares to take this sort of tactic without having a law enforcement officer present to make the search is asking for legal liability trouble to no end and is a fool's errand to try and accomplish. There are theft, assault, and other charges that can be filed against the instructor that they really wouldn't want to fight.
As for searching school dorms, you have in that situation a tenant/landlord situation where the legal situation is even more murky. Yes, I know that sometimes courts treat dorms different from typical apartment living arrangements, but it is a very fine line that doesn't always hold true.
These are fine arguments you are making here, but depending on this explanation and citations you are making here for authority and legality of an instructor to make such a search of notes is something I wouldn't want to depend upon, certainly as an instructor.
Actually, that's only true for the federal government. It's up to each state as to whether or not it wants to copyright its material. You may need to look at the specific laws in your state for this situation.
Lots of research is funded by the government yet I still have to pay $20 to IEEE if I want to read the paper summarizing the results.
BTW, all my professor have copyrighted their lecture notes.
Well as it turns-out, I was wrong. The "government employees cannot copyright their works" has not been extended to the state schools; only the schools owned by the U.S. Here's an informative post from the original forum: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4464985&postcount=65
Pay special attention to point 8:
FROM themagicbean
1. IAAL, (who has both prosecuted and presented continuing education on copright) which you can tell by:
2. Disclaimer: No attorney-client relationsihp is formed by the dissemination of the following information. If you actually wish to pursue any legal action contact an attorney in your jurisdiction first.
3. A school official (administrator/teacher/etc.) needs reasonable cause to search or seize a student/his belongings.
4. If it was a notebook provided by the school, no violation of rights. If it was your notebook, she took your stuff, that is theft (a crime) and conversion (or trespass to chattels), both torts (civil wrongs).
5. In any case, the entry of the backpack is probably not justified--unless she first asked you to return the school's notebook and you didn't give it back and she had cause to suspect it was in your pack.
6. All the copyright ranters (mostly on Slashdot): First, copyright is irrelevant to the physical object theft and the invasion of privacy. Even if we assume the student had no copyright and the teacher had copyright in the information in the notebook, the physical object can't just be seized by a private party without court order. Yes, when copyright is infringed a plaintiff can file suit and obtain a court order allowing seizure and/or destruction of the property but, before the court orders that seizure or destruction, the property is still the defendant's. The feds (or other law enforcers), if dealing with criminal copyright investigations can seize earlier (e.g., searching a house with a warrant and taking out the computers used to distribute copies of a movie without permission), but you weren't dealing with the feds. ...
In any case
7. There's nothing to indicate a plausible allegation of infringment (see 8), much less criminal infringment (willful infringment for personal gain).
8. In fact, it's most likely that the copyright belongs to the student. The teacher is communicating information. The student arranges that information in his notes, selecting and storing what information to keep and in what order. This makes the student the copyright holder of the arrangment of the information. To those who would argue it is the teacher's or textbook's information: remember (section 102(b)) what isn't copyrightable--processes, orders, etc ... and factual information is generally not the subject of copyright under the merger/scenes a faire doctrines ... thus the teacher and textbook publisher had thin copyrights in their publications/assertions (protecting their arrangments and annotations) and the students arrangment of that information is his copyright. (To those who said the teacher cannot copyright her work it's the US Government--federal--that cannot under Title 17. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any law extending that to the states (or cities or smaller governments or parts thereof such as school districts but if you would care to correct me, I welcome you to do so (subject to the restriction in the next paragraph).)
9. Please do not respond to any part of this telling me I'm wrong unless you, too, have a bar card. (I have simplified a few things, yes, but the rules are right.)
10. Please someone post this on the Slashdot thread as /. is not letting me log in right now.
11. What you need to do: 1. Get your parents on your side. 2. Talk to higher school officials (VP/Principal/Dean/maybe even superintendant if not pleased).
12. It actually may be worth it to make a case out of it if the teacher teaches enough students (class action civil rights lawsuit). See paragraph 2.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
When some leaves from your neighbor's tree fall into your yard, do you immediately file a lawsuit or do you actually try to work with him/her first?
The following is a post from the source message board reposted here at the request of the author.
Author: themagicbean
Post Date: 1/25/2008, 17:34 [-6:00]
Source: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4464985&postcount=65
1. IAAL, (who has both prosecuted and presented continuing education on copright) which you can tell by:
2. Disclaimer: No attorney-client relationsihp is formed by the dissemination of the following information. If you actually wish to pursue any legal action contact an attorney in your jurisdiction first.
3. A school official (administrator/teacher/etc.) needs reasonable cause to search or seize a student/his belongings.
4. If it was a notebook provided by the school, no violation of rights. If it was your notebook, she took your stuff, that is theft (a crime) and conversion (or trespass to chattels), both torts (civil wrongs).
5. In any case, the entry of the backpack is probably not justified--unless she first asked you to return the school's notebook and you didn't give it back and she had cause to suspect it was in your pack.
6. All the copyright ranters (mostly on Slashdot): First, copyright is irrelevant to the physical object theft and the invasion of privacy. Even if we assume the student had no copyright and the teacher had copyright in the information in the notebook, the physical object can't just be seized by a private party without court order. Yes, when copyright is infringed a plaintiff can file suit and obtain a court order allowing seizure and/or destruction of the property but, before the court orders that seizure or destruction, the property is still the defendant's. The feds (or other law enforcers), if dealing with criminal copyright investigations can seize earlier (e.g., searching a house with a warrant and taking out the computers used to distribute copies of a movie without permission), but you weren't dealing with the feds. ...
In any case
7. There's nothing to indicate a plausible allegation of infringment (see 8), much less criminal infringment (willful infringment for personal gain).
8. In fact, it's most likely that the copyright belongs to the student. The teacher is communicating information. The student arranges that information in his notes, selecting and storing what information to keep and in what order. This makes the student the copyright holder of the arrangment of the information. To those who would argue it is the teacher's or textbook's information: remember (section 102(b)) what isn't copyrightable--processes, orders, etc ... and factual information is generally not the subject of copyright under the merger/scenes a faire doctrines ... thus the teacher and textbook publisher had thin copyrights in their publications/assertions (protecting their arrangments and annotations) and the students arrangment of that information is his copyright. (To those who said the teacher cannot copyright her work it's the US Government--federal--that cannot under Title 17. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any law extending that to the states (or cities or smaller governments or parts thereof such as school districts but if you would care to correct me, I welcome you to do so (subject to the restriction in the next paragraph).)
9. Please do not respond to any part of this telling me I'm wrong unless you, too, have a bar card. (I have simplified a few things, yes, but the rules are right.)
10. Please someone post this on the Slashdot thread as /. is not letting me log in right now.
11. What you need to do: 1. Get your parents on your side. 2. Talk to higher school officials (VP/Principal/Dean/maybe even superintendant if not pleased).
12. It actually may be worth it to make a case out of it if the teacher teaches enough students (class action civil rights lawsuit). See paragraph 2.
Well, the thing is that it becomes a different situation when a police officer does the search, as he is an agent of the government.
And I wasn't really attempting to cite those websites as authorities on the subject, but rather as basic references as I didn't want to take the time to search for specific court cases or rulings. Those websites reference a few, though.
I also would not depend on those websites were I an instructor, but I maintain that a contract between private entities with terms contrary to the rights specified in the Fourth Amendment is not unconstitutional nor void.
No existe.
Personally, I prefer to use a more tasteful way of settling things, namely mailing an anonymous envelope full of dog pubes to the respective person's business address.
No. At most schools, they own the patents you produce using their facilities (hence the reason it's called a patent agreement), much like workplaces. If you can't patent it, they can't take it. My articles, my papers, they are mine.
Besides, I'm somewhat skeptical of the OP's premise - who keeps their notes handwritten? My handwriting's so godawful bad I've been transcribing notes since my sophomore year (I'm at the end of a Ph.D. program now).
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand" - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
You're wrong. Students (usually graduate students) sign "patent" agreements stating that patents produced using school facilities are the property of the school. Except in cases where they have to submit to Turnitin, students retain the rights to all copyrightable material.
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand" - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Do you have the backup on this? I'd like to know if this REALLY happened and would like to talk to the original source for your post. This deserves a second look. I work at a college in disability support services and we've had instructors ask to have electronic copies of power point files, recordings of lectures, etc. that were given to disabled students returned to be destroyed, and I'm trying to find out how often this happens. You can email me directly at techienews@susabelle.com. THANK YOU!!
That is basically what my calculus teacher told me at the end of my first semester. First of all, I type everything on my laptop, I scan and collect everything I can. I'm not as insane as a triple offshore backup but I do copy my entire school directory to my portable drive and back home every few weeks so backups are available. Secondly, if someone asked for my material I'd just say they can have a copy, they can't have my hard drive, I can recover anything you ask me to delete, I have more backups at home and if you try to force it I'll make sure it's up on the web by the end of the day. Thirdly, back to my original sentence. My professor told me that the material he teaches is proprietary. The proofs and ideas were there but he redid everything, came up with more elegant ways to prove and to explain it, hence my notes are his IP. He asked for a copy of mine but didn't ask me to delete them. He only asked not to publicize them. Is that also right? Can he do that? Currently, I plan to sell the notes as much as I can to the friendly campus notes booklet store and upload everything when I graduate.
No one ever said being a Heretic was easy.
Let us meet again in "Less Interesting Times"