Slashdot Mirror
Subversive Groups Must Now Register In South Carolina
Hugh Pickens writes "The Raw Story reports that terrorists who want to overthrow the United States government must now register with South Carolina's Secretary of State and declare their intentions — or face a $25,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison. The 'Subversive Activities Registration Act' passed last year in South Carolina and now officially on the books states that 'every member of a subversive organization, or an organization subject to foreign control, every foreign agent and every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States ... shall register with the Secretary of State.'"
slashdot requires all first posters to register.
No one thought to do this pre 9/11.
I am not left-handed, either!
...is currently planning on overthrowing the existing government of the United States. Have they registered?
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
I mean, I don't want to have to drive all the way to South Carolina if I can avoid it. Especially with gas prices the way they are now, and subversive equipment costs going through the roof.
Everything you know is wrong, Just forget the words and sing along.
Does this mean anyone who wants to replace the current leader(s) in government are subjected to this scrutiny?
Well, if they did that then they wouldn't be subversive now, would they?
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
Enjoy your democracy, guys.
I thought my evil master plan for overthrowing the government was PERFECT! Nobody could have known what I was up to!
And now I have to tell them myself?
Oh well...
The story also states that it only costs $5 to register. At least it's not expensive to get on such an exclusive list!
If any home grown yokels actually register, they deserve all that they will get from the Federal Government. It brings to mind those questions on customs forms about having certain items.
For every present, there is a past
Sounds like a money grab. US arrests 'terrorists', S.C. fines them $25k for not registering...
I'm sure they will get their money too... hahahaha
Nevermind. This is just stupid.
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
Judenbucher!
Abfuhren!
$25,000 fine and 10 years of Guantanamo Bay for you!
Whats left of this democracy and freedom thing America was supposed to be about?
Only criminals will secretly be Terrorists. :( ...
PANIC!
When they come for me, thats a warning to all my friends that it is time to begin truly stockpiling certain materials, not just collecting them ;)
Shh.
They could have at least tried a little harder and turned it into a competition
"Attempt to Subvert the country and WIN!!!! Register with the Secretary of state and enter the draw for a free all expenses paid trip to Cuba, where you get to relax in luxury"
Who signs up for anything if they don't have any chance of winning anything, or even get anything for free?
Freedom of association and the right to espouse political views anonymously have been upheld frequently by the highest courts, so this is just a matter of paper politics.
Can we trade them even up for Haiti?
If you intend to do anything illegal you must register. If you litter and have not registered your intention to litter we're going to come down hard on you! Planning to kill your spouse? Register now, and get 20% off your sentence! Planning to rob a bank? Registration before Feb 15th gives you 10% off your sentence. Planning a terrorist act? Just call 1-900-TERR-RIST, and we'll go easy on you if you don't make it right away to your chosen form of heaven.
Seriously, what kind of bass awkwards government scheme is this? If your penalties for commiting a crime are too lax, tighten them. Otherwise expecting people to register their intention of breaking the law (and inciting the overthrow of the government isn't just simple free speech folks. If you think it is maybe you're so messed up this law will work on you) is pure nonsense.
The muppets coming up with this should be....oh wait I'd have to register to say that....
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Hmm $5 charge..... What do you want to bet the Republican and Democratic parties, Tea Party, Police Departments, Exxon, Greenpeace, Chase Bank, Hillary Clinton, Rush Limbaugh, Goldman Sachs, everyone's ex's and pretty much everyone else anyone dislikes all find 'helpful' people registering on their behalf? If this list feeds to the no fly list there's going to be hell to pay.
To the US government, there is no difference between a terrorist and a constitutional patriot. Any opposition to the present-day government is to be supressed, silenced, destroyed and/or killed.
How about those Tea Parties too? ACORN? Fox News? Jon Stewart? The New York Times? Wall Street Journal? Of course, the Supreme Court? And most importantly, is Argentinian agent Mark Sanford gonna sign up? If he doesn't, Jenny will bust him.
for the South Carolina state legislature?
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Obviously, any opposition political party is interested in seizing the government of the United States. Since the Democrats currently have power (although it's not nearly as clear as in a parliamentary system), that implies that every Republican supporter must register.
But plenty of Democrats aren't happy with the U.S. government either... so should they register?
It seems like this is basically a poll tax on people who want to vote...
at the Federal Reserve and declare their intentions, or be subject to stiff fines.
Furthermore, the IRS would like to remind bank robbers that failure to declare their (illegal) income will result in additional tax penalties.
uR iGn0ranc3, Their Power
Sometimes I really think Americans are nuts. If I have plans to overthrow Government Why will I register to the Government I want to overthrow. Come one Joe sometimes irrationality plays in your legislation.
Does this mean if my group registers with the state and we state our intentions to commit terrorist acts that we will be immune from prosecution when we carry out our intentions?
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
This is just like those "marijuana tax stamp" acts. Laws like that typicly just end up being used to tack on extra years when you get convicted, and/or to assist the prosecutors since the more laws you break the easier it is to convict. IMHO, it's a waste of time since any serious act (ie, assault, murder) comitted by such a group is going to get them life or worse (does SC have the death penalty?)
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Sure is a good thing they'll have this registry to track down everyone who doesn't comply! Oh wait...
Enjoy your democracy
If it was my democracy, then I wouldn't be the victim.
I seem to remember from school that a historically significant event happened in South Carolina that started a war....oh, right. The Battle of Fort Sumter which started the American Civil War.
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
badmouthing the government != subversion, since you aren't, you know, actually subverting anything. not saying the law makes sense or anything, but even if it did include that, first amendment > sc laws, so it wouldn't hold up in court anyway. try again.
Enjoy your democracy, guys.
thanks i will.
In other news, immigration officials have reported that they have seen an increase in the number of terrorists self-identifying on immigration declaration forms filled in at ports of entry. "It's since we added the extra questions," said a spokesman. "We ask if they really mean it, then if they are willing to cross their heart and hope to die."
Dunx
Converting caffeine into code since 1982
Rumor has it that they have a similar law on the books in Texas: thieves are required to give homeowners 24 hours' notice of their intended break-in, or else they face a fine. Whether it exists or not, I don't actually know, but the idea behind it is that if nothing else sticks, at least they can get the person on a charge like that. I'm assuming the same applies here. They want some way to get the groups if nothing else is gonna stick.
I don't know about you but I was pondering for a while why would South Carolina care so much about Eclipse's SVN plugin (http://www.eclipse.org/subversive/)...
I can see other states passing laws such as this. I would think that if you were planning on overthrowing the government, doing so "legally" by registering your intent probably wouldn't seem like the brightest idea. This is akin to requiring bank robbers to register before they go rob a bank. Who in their right mind would do anything? Also notice that it says on the clause:
"(1) "Subversive organization" means every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States, of this State or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence or other unlawful means;
"advocate"........."advise".......... These words are the result of sharing your opinion. You "advocate" or you "advise" somebody on a matter. This basically makes thought and speech crimes if you do not register to speak your opinion. If we share opinions then we need to register. I honestly cannot fathom what crime this useless law is meant to deter from, nor see how it will protect anyone from anything. Any sort of restrictions on free speech and the right to assembly (also attacked here) are movements towards taking power and freedoms away from people. My oh my how utterly un-american we have so become........the sad part is that the people that vote these laws into action consider themselves patriots (notice how patriotism is explicitly exempt from this law, which opens up all sorts of avenues......militias are patriotic too........) I hope they gave George and Tom lots of space to roll in their coffins......................
America.....pure irony at its best!
zosxavius photography
I guess I better register the "Make ucblockhead the God-Emperor of the United States" society.
The cake is a pie
They trying some thing again?? I thought Presedent Lincoln took care of that a few years back...
If I just want to overthrown the state of South Carolina's government, do I have to register? If so, then I think I'll do that first before making up my mind about the federal gov. It seems like less paperwork that way.
So we do not have to register if we only want to invoke pain and terror on the citizens... SWEET.. safe until the next bill...
Just because it works, Doesn't make it right. - JTM
Why is South Carolina always in the vanguard of these great ideas? This is such a wonderful idea. I wish I'd thought of it first.
All we need now is for terrorists to have to put a sticker in their windshield. Then if they get caught without it, we slap 'em with an appearance ticket.
Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
but, if the description can be trusted: "every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States" Then, members of political parties, local and state representatives, and lobbyists all have to register on this list as well...unless they are actually not trying to control or conduct the government...
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
Enjoy your democracy, guys.
If you read the text of the statute, you'll see that dissent alone isn't covered by this law. You have to be planning to overthrow the government by violent or unlawful means. I would imagine this law would be found unconstitutional under Fifth Amendment grounds, as overthrow of the government by violent or other unlawful means is, by definition, unlawful, and the Fifth Amendment protects you from being compelled to make statements which would incriminate yourself.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
Enjoy your democracy, guys.
bad mounting the government =/= subversion.
In other words... your analogy sucks :) But that's ok, the whole idea of asking or requiring subversive groups to register not only sucks more, it's fucking ridiculous. It's like asking a criminal to register his intentions to commit a crime.
If you are a pedo and want to bang a little child, check the box that says "yes", otherwise check "no". </facepalm!!(10+1)>
I can see where the proponents of this law are coming from, but come the fucking on, it's obvious that it is completely unenforceable.
Thanks, South Carolina!
The Institute of Incomplete Research has determined that 9 of out 10
By "subversive organization," the law means "every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States [or] of this State."
Is it just me, or does that definition necessarily include all U.S. citizens of voting age? What ever happened to "for the People, by the People" ??? Silly me, I was under the impression that it is every citizen's civic duty to control the government. It's called voting.
These sort of laws always seem so ridiculous until you learn how criminal law comes into application in real practice. Laws like this one enable police organizations to expand their scope of suspicions to an area of law that is less scrutinized that violent crimes. This type of law is also used to enhance punishments during investigations for the cases where say, the police are pretty sure these guys were planning to do some terrorizing but couldn't prove it but with this law they can show the far more vague notion of being a group with desires for overthrowing gov't. (Wouldn't many republicans count? hehe, anyway...) so they can put them in jail or otherwise limit their freedom of movement and privacy while continuing to investigate and try to prove more malicious actions or intent.
So the law might seem ridiculous but it's exactly this kind of law that is constantly misused and abused in our legal/police system every day, both for good and bad.
On a related note, many traffic codes and laws are created for the purpose of enhancing fines and punishments allowable to people who cause accidents. Consider any traffic law that seems impossible to catch a person breaking, then realize that when that person crashes or causes a crash, any number of such laws can be applied, merely with witness testimony, to enhance fines and so on. For example, many states have had laws for years that require you use your hands for nothing besides driving. This is classically used to assert fault on, say, a woman doing her make-up while driving or a driver distracted by children. They just need an eye witness to corroborate for determination of fault.
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
Is it just me or is there an increase in the number of new laws (not just in the US) that basically state that it's illegal to do illegal stuff? I'm trying to find the rational explanation for that, but so far I've failed.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
well everyone should register isn't the right to vote a method of overthrowing the government.
From TFA - this is any group that "directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States".
Lobbyist groups are all about controlling the government (via substantial bribes). Does this mean they need to register?
From jail, with lots of money, paying a team of very good (and very expensive) lawyers, over years, while the matter proceeds through court after court? With no certainty that the SCOTUS, which has approved many an unconstitutional matter, will see things the constitutional way?
Tell you what. You try again. I'll just quietly think my thoughts without involving the whole broken system.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
The same thing we do every night Pinky, try to take over the world! We just won't start in South Carolina.
Slashdot, where armchair scientists get shouted down and armchair theologians get modded up.
What's stopping people from filling out the form on behalf of their most hated organization? It only costs $5 + postage.
Ballmer's signature is just one google image search away thanks to "Windows 7 RTM Ultimate Steve Ballmer Signature Edition".
This is one of the stupidest things I have heard, and this state has been making a lot of stupid moves lately, I am moving to another state asap!
has already overthrown the former government of the United States.
Equal time and all that rot.
Like this group of fundie shitheads:
http://www.christianexodus.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Exodus
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.
MABASPLOOM!
Would Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer have to register?
How awesome is that! Lets all go register!
It used to be you have to have a following buy guns or spend years spewing wacky ideas
Now you can just fill out a form and pay $5.
Sounds like an end-run around the First Amendment. The legislators probably realized that an outright ban on such groups would amount to prior restraint of free speech, so they figured they could achieve essentially the same effect by attempting to regulate your right to free speech, knowing that no sane person (or group) would willingly put themselves under the government's microscope. This is straight out of the playbook of J. Edgar Hoover. I am not a lawyer.
It is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. And you know what? We did enjoy it while it lasted.
Anarchists, unite!
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I think this is a joke. I highly doubt a group of people willing to kill themselves by crashing planes into buildings would be disueded by the threat of jail time and a fine.
And that, of course, is the entire point of this legislation. The idea is that "subversives" won't register. That way you get to fine and imprison people for belonging to organisations, all the time pretending that you are not infringing on their rights of speech or assembly.
Cute.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
My right to use violence to influence the government is protected by free speech isn't it? :-(
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
So couldn't you just pay your five dollars and create a group that includes every citizen in SC?
Supporter of the +1 Over Dramatic mod option. In memory of apk.
But they can't eat you. That's illegal.
right...
good luck getting aipac members registered as a subversive group or even getting this org, tantamount to a fifth column, declared as "foreign controlled"...
and don't give me that "anti-semitic" sh*t, i'm half-jewish and have no tolerance for actual judeophobia.
ac
I drove through South Carolina not long ago. You see lots of rebel flags flying, especially in the rural areas. Is that subversive? Is the state going to go after them?
Let's make it $10 and a T.shirt for me please.
Sounds like South Carolina has changed their primary crop of smoking material...
I "advocate conducting the government of the United States". So I guess that qualifies.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Didn't it say something about having to use the state's mailserver for the organization's personal email too?
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
too bad this is going to be found unconstitutional. but thanks for letting us know you are a bunch of authoritarian red necks. Just in case we needed more proof that North Carolina is much cooler than South Carolina.
and 20 bucks says this was proposed by some republicans, since everyone seems to focus on calling the democrats the socialists. You know whats a million times worse than what you allege to be socialism? Fascism and Authoritarianism. Our constitution gives us not only the right, but the responsibility to revolt and throw a revolution if the government falls out of touch. That's the whole point of democracy.
f-ing asshats
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
EdelFactor
They are foreign agents!
"every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States [or] of this State."
If you advocate the propriety of the people to control their government in a democratic country, you fall under this law. It definitely covers more than planning to take actual action - it also covers advocating, advising or teaching.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
These laws were declared unconstitutional by Yates v. US. .
Under Yates, teaching and advocating violent overthrow of the government is protected speech. Only actually doing it can be punished, when it presents a "clear and present danger.
Do you just walk into their office, say "Hi, I'm a crazy anarchist who's here to destroy your government. Where do I register?" and fill out a form?
Everyday I teach my young sons about life, liberty, and property rights. The pursuit of happiness comes when the government is not meddling with your life and making it worse.
The trouble is, I have no ammo for my guns since Obama has taken office. No 9mm, No 30.06 shells. Black powder to make your own is scarce. I guess I can throw my beer cans at the government when its time to overthrow it.
To all South Carolinians, the invasion from Florida will commence as soon as I can load my beer cans into my truck and overthrow your government from the south. In the mean time you can overthrow the government of Florida from the North. Charlie Christ will surrender to your whims when you stimulate him.
PS: How in the hell does the LA/NY/CHI/MIA gangs get their ammunition when I can't get any?
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
If you are a pedo and want to bang a little child, check the box that says "yes", otherwise check "no".
Actually, it's more like saying that, with a footnote: Pedo to be defined as any person who has ever had a thought that could be described as sexual in nature involving any individual under the age of consent, not excluding the thinker, and regardless of the age of the thinker at the time the thought occurred.
Read their definition of subversive. It includes advocating, advising and teaching. So yes, saying you think the government sucks and needs to be taken down would put you afoul of this law, technically. It would seem that quoting certain of the founding fathers now requires registration in SC.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
Fark will now need a "South Carolina" tag to go with the "Florida" tag.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
Maybe they're just trying to round up an army for when they try to secede from the union again.
first thought: who's still using Subversion when we have GIT-Hub??
I was completely aware of what I posted and I still stand behind it. It is a particular brand of government badmouthing they are after, the people that want real change and oppose the government absolutely and completely--the truly unpatriotic. They could care less about people that grumble about traffic fines.
I used to say the same thing, except I've come to realize it's all semantics, and the constitution never meant a damn thing, not since its ratification, not now, not ever.
Does it matter, in any practical sense of the word, if its unconstitutional if they only use it to get warrants and fish for evidence of other crimes? As long as they drop the (obviously unconstitutional) charge before it goes to court how does it ever get tested?
Or in other words give them rights to snoop where they have no right to be snooping. When the person breaks the law, punish them suitably for it. end of story. Being a group who desires to overthrow the government is legal. Deal with it. You do remember how this country was founded right?
They seem ridiculous because they are. They admit how faulty our system is to need such things. There is no way to abuse something for good. If you abuse the law you are doing something ethically wrong. Because by so doing, you lay groundwork for others to circumvent vent it. If the law is wrong, change it.
How is it any more possible for a witness to see the driver doing her makeup than for the police man to do so himself? Frankly I'm surprised they don't put a cop on foot at traffic lights in cities, walk around take down the plates of hundreds of drivers using cell phones w/o headsets and have them all pulled over several blocks away...
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
EdelFactor
I always thought those guys were pretty funny. They did all this research on how SC matched their profile of the right state to base their movement in and how we were "ready" for their movement. What they didn't factor in is that while we South Carolinians may be crazy and do our share (and a little more) of stupid stuff, we are quite happy to do it on our own and aren't big fans of outside people telling us how to do it.
Was it Frank Herbert that wrote about a society where the only way to establish one new law was to repeal two in it's place?
At some point in human history, an individual could know all of the laws that pertained to them. Now we have laws that need to be published in multiple volumes, and set of laws for the year have to be wheeled around.
Could we at least require a one for one replacement, so useless or obsolete laws get removed from the books? (I realize this would stay on the books for 20 years even with the removal law.)
On a humorous note, what would the penalty be for falsely filling out the form with the names of the governor, and all of the house and senate members of South Carolina? (other then $5 and postage)
This is mostly likely unconstitutional. In Leary v The United States The Marihuana Tax Act (yes that is the "correct" spelling) was found to be in violation of the Fifth Amendment. I wish I could fire the people who come up with this stuff. It's like they don't even both to think. "Dur Hur, Lets make it illegal not to tell us you're a potential criminal." It scares me that we put these people in power.
Christ almighty, what is wrong with my state?
The Smith Act was a similar federal law that was used in 1949-50 to imprison 11 leaders of the Communist Party USA. The convictions were later declared unconstitutional, after the 11 defendants had already served several years in prison.
I suspect that the real target of this law is not "terrorists" but leftists. The left in the US is tiny, and this law is meant to keep it that way.
I wonder if somebody will ask S.C. why they haven't told the KKK to register?
Republican leadership = Idiocracy
I wonder if "Let's take our country back" South Carolina Congressman Joe Wilson will be signing himself up? He not only fits the description, he is also taking money from people who do.
It seems to me that right about the time a government passes such a ridiculous law it's time for it to be overthrown.
Reminds me of the the Smith Act..
"Subversive organization" means every [...] political party [...] which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling [...] the government of the United States.
So, basically every political party at all, then? 'Cause that's what political parties do: try to control the government. It's sort of what makes them political parties in the first place, no?
Worse still, given the full text that excerpt is from (emphasis mine):
"Subversive organization" means every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States
...any two or more acquaintances supporting the same political candidate (even an independent candidate) or the same policy as each other would qualify as a "subversive organization" under a literal interpretation of this law. So unless you don't know anybody at all who shares the same political opinions as you, congratulations, you're a member of a "subversive organization"!
On the plus side, I suppose it will strongly encourage people to think differently from each other...
-Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
They have to have time to set up the porta-potty banks and food vendors.
And a beer hall. Got to have a beer hall.
After all, what is a revolution without proper support?
Isn't it a little early for April Fool's Jokes?
The intention of this, and many similar laws that have materialized in recent years is to effectively lower the burden of proof for detaining, questioning and ultimately convicting anyone who may or may be planning to 'perform terrorist acts' - an overly broad definition of which actually includes anyone who disagrees with current political thinking.
For example, under standard criminal law, suspects need to have actually performed a crime to be prosecuted.
Without an actual crime, there is the lesser charge of 'conspiring' to commit a crime. However, you still need strong evidence that some kind of criminal activity has, or is about to take place.
Laws like this one only require someone to publicly oppose the government, and unless they are a registered (in which case they are pretty much screwed anyway - their activities will no doubt be scrutinised), they can be detained without any evidence that they are actually considering doing anything of a crimnal nature.
This is, in my opinion anyway, a way of implementing harsh penalties for 'thought crime'. The only effect will be to cause resentment and to drive any non-mainstream political movements underground.
because driving these groups underground makes it much harder to catch them before they strike
You are a liberal left wing idiot.
Yes, very good, we certainly don't want people overthrowing governments by force. Except in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, the Confederate States of America, or His Majesty's American colonies. That's different.
It's just another stupid law among many that they throw at people to make sure something sticks, like making it illegal not to report stolen property when doing your taxes. Why not just increase the maximum penalty of every crime to life in prison then? Because that's where we'll be soon.
since I left South Carolina, and I've never looked back. Charleston, while a beautiful city in many ways, was hellish: the overt racism and classism I experienced still disgust me.
But not really any more. Mostly I'm a Git guy now. It's just so much easier. It's just so stupid-easy to use.
Hope they get on the subversive's case for having that little red book. Subversive red beans. I heard they even put a bean on the cover, and I know that one. Yup. Shure do. That's the symbol when they're trying to be all racialist on the Mexicans.
Good thing I don't have to register with the state. Too much trouble, anyhow.
coding is life
I think the Bill will fail.
Why didn't the federal government think of this? We could have already had a beowulf cluster of airport security checkpoint imaging machines matching pre-flight body scans with names from the registration list.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Interesting. So when Jefferson said “Every generation needs a new revolution” and “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive”, he would have easily been facing 10 years and a $25K fine for advising the [duty|necessity] of overthrowing the government
Perhaps they need a law that requires registration of fuckwit legislators, so when they pass laws like this we can send them to Gitmo or something.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
When rednecks talk about overthrowing the U.S. they're just talking shit about U.S. Grant. They've been doing that for 150 years. They're all insane from the moonshine and the inbreeding.
Trouble with things like this is, they written broadly and we're assured they only want to fight "terrorists".... and then they go on to use it against political enemies, because verbal assurances that they'll follow intent are only worth the paper they're printed on. In law, the wording is all that matters. If it lets them jail someone for saying "fuck the police! Fuck the legislature! Fuck Congress! You all need to be run out of town!", then sooner or later an angry little pissant cracker DA with an axe to grind against the speaker is going to use it simply because he can.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
How about something like this (feel free to democratically suggest improvements or point out issues): When a law finally makes it's way through all the courts and the Supreme Court finds it unconstitutional how about putting *every single last bastard* who voted for it on trial for treason? The Supreme Court could decide if it was an obvious case which would make it more difficult to get out of, an hysteria case which would allow reparations to more easily flow, or a subtle case which a voter could get out of with a slap on the wrist simply by admitting their stupidity. Seriously, a little bit of responsibility? I know politicians hate that word when applied to *them*, but come on: throwing insult after insult at the wall knowing that a few of them will stick is the antithesis of what I thought the USA was. It you are going to, as a politician, betray the blood spilled by countless of your ancestors for the freedom you enjoy, well, I'd like to see yours spilled in return.
Shh.
Crap like this suggests that it is time to replace the government, and it sounds like they know it is coming...
I live in Nebraska, but I'd like to register anyway. I have advocated "controlling and conducting" the government by means of encouraging others to vote for the candidates I like and by donating time and money to their campaigns. By South Carolina's standard, I'm a subversive. Would I get a registration form I could hang on my wall next to my college diploma, a share of SCOX stock, and a Church of the SubGenius ordination certificate?
Actually, I'm kind of serious about that. In a dream world, I'd like to see a few hundred million people register as South Carolina subversives.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
If they charge for it, they could have at least thrown in a t-shirt which says "officially registered in South Carolina as subversive", or something along these lines.
It would promote tourism, too. Win-win!
so it would follow, by exercising a citizen's right to vote, all conspire to control the government. Therefore all should register with the Secretary of State. or is that not what they meant?
It's better to regret something you have done that to regret something you haven't done.
... of an organization with founding documents that states:
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
So I guess I've got to register, right?
Have gnu, will travel.
The feds beat them to it a long time ago..... but they will probably just throw you in prison for 20 years. Amazing that I can be jailed for this longer than I can be jailed for attempted murder. Just for ADVOCATING revolution. This is disgusting. I feel a storm brewing.
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > 2385
2385. Advocating overthrow of Government
Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
America is retarded. Oh wait, I am Australian, disregard what I said.
For what it's worth, this selection evens out your last 100 moronic selections.
Good one.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
he's done more to overthrow his political party in the state than Wacko bin Looney ever did.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
'every member of a subversive organization, or an organization subject to foreign control, every foreign agent and every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States ... shall register with the Secretary of State.'
Do they ever even consider running these things past a high school English teacher or equivalent before they put them to a vote?
I mean what is the definition of “subversive”? “Does not conform to party lines, like in China”?
By my definition, all TV stations and political parties are subversive and perverse. Now what?
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
I guess a whole bunch of corporations that have US senators on their payrolls (officially or not) will have to sign up then?
It's not a bug, it's a lepidopter!
Would this be covered? "What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." Sounds like a plan to overthrow by violent means to me.
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
Do I have to register to overthrow the NWO?
Futurist Traditionalism
" every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government"
Political parties certainly advocate and advise the controlling and conducting of the government. I hope all those politicians are registering.
Should I write "Updates" or "Obsoletes" RFC 3514?
http://outcampaign.org/
In South Carolina the Democratic Party would be considered as a subversive organization since they want to control the federal and state governments. In doing so the Democrats would have to complain about the entrenched Republican control of same. This law is clearly unconstitutional. Of course it'll take an activist court system to say so.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Here we go, the easy way to get Red Listed...
I wonder how the Militias in South Carolina like this crap.
What I've seen of Raw Story tells me it's about as newsworthy as Weekly World News, or Slashdot.
Now all they need to do is have an insurgent tax, IED levy, and require permits for any terrorist act and our security problems will clear away like second hand smoke.
....by the same state that put George "Dubyuh" Bush on the path to become America's 43rd president.
Regards;
"...or other unlawful means;"
You mean like their guy's warrantless wiretaps ??
Then yes, R's gotta register. ;)
South Carolina could make decent money selling "Registered Subversive" ID's Tshirts and buttons :)
It's called "contempt of cop." Hop over to the forums at "officer.com" to listen to the assembled law enforcement officers swap jokes about pulling it on some "liberal *&#$%" now and again...
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
Brilliant!!
I wonder if state officials will make it easy for the terrorists to register by having an online registration page?
And will they run Google Ads encouraging one click sign-ups with the terrorist's Google Mail account?
Anyone know?
I guess this means secessionist groups must now register in South Carolina.
What is this world coming to?
In other news, The Office of Homeland Security is now offering FREE BOATS to the following people ...
Wouldn't the Ku Klux Klan count as a subversive organization? Try and force all the Klan members in South Carolina to register or get fined or jailed. What about all those right wing militia groups? Militant anti-abortion groups? People who want to make the USA a "Christian Nation"? Somehow I don't think they had all that in mind when they wrote this law.
You can get the registration form from here under Miscellaneous Forms.
I second this motion
Any chance George Soros would count as a foreign organization plotting the overthrow of the US Gov't?
Just a thought...
Any reason to think this would withstand a constitutional challenge?
Ken
Lobbyists must be pissed.
WILEY and co-conspirators believe the use of high-explosives to restore the rights of 10th and 14th Ammendments is fully justified. We have planned to base our operations around train tunnels.
SubversiveAgentForm.pdf
make sure there are no finger prints ;)
or other unlawful means
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
Enjoy your democracy, guys.
And if they do register, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
Dear South Carolina,
As requested, we hereby notify you that we are a "Subversive organization" --a corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons. We hope to directly or indirectly advocate, advise, teach or practice the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government the State of South Carolina and any political subdivision thereof by unlawful means.
Specifically, we wish to advocate doing so by (1) collecting money from business organizations, then (2) using this money to support the campaign efforts of a sufficient number of elected officials to obtain majority influence over the elected branches of the Government of South Carolina. We will solicit and accept donations from corporations subject to foreign control, such as Sonoco Products, SCANA Corporation, Bowater, Inc., and other corporate entities with major investments in both South Carolina and the rest of the world. They do not have to be Fortune 500 companies! We're willing to include profitable corporations of any size, regardless of the national allegiances of their stockholders, board members, or executives.
We will, by funding the continuation of the careers of elected officials in the State of South Carolina, hope to directly or indirectly influence them to pursue policies favorable to the business interests of our donors, particularly when these interests conflict with the rights provided in the constitutions of the State of Carolina and the United States. As we anticipate that these conflicts will be of a constitutional nature, this should suffice to be unlawful enough to warrant registration under your recent legislation. Hopefully you will find this suitably subversive.
Included with our registration fee you will find a 15% gratuity. Please consider this a token of our appreciation of your ongoing efforts to make the realization of our goals easier.
Looking forward to seeing you at the President's Day golf outing. Looks like the weather will keep us in the clubhouse!
Toodles,
-The Old Boy Network
so much for free speech
I totally misread that as "Subversion groups..."
Why would a group that wants to overthrow the government even register to that government?
Secondly, would anyone with an IQ over 10 really want to be a part of a group that is actively registering itself as an enemy of the government?
This sounds like the plot to a bad Saturday morning cartoon show.
Remember kids it's OK to want to overthrow your government, just so long as you let them know first. And now you know.
Let's see... I'm an officially licensed USSF soccer referee. The US Soccer Federation is subject to control by FIFA, headquarters in Zurich, Switzerland whose President, Sepp Blatter is no friend of the US. Thank god I don't live in South Calinky, or I'd have to register for sure... probably have to turn in any of my colleagues who didn't. Maybe the SC legislature can start up its own House Un-American Activities Committee and give the next Nixon a leg up the ladder.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
Not necessarily. The law discusses unlawful revolution.
As far as I'm aware, every generation in our country has produced a revolution of sorts within the bounds of the law. Tis the beauty of having a democracy, and a constitution with a reasonable process of amendment.
We can have revolutions as often as we need/want, and nobody has to die.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Wouldn't many republicans count?
Yeah, all the people flying the confederate flag would have to register.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
"Subversive organization" means every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States, of this State or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence or other unlawful means;
Such as bribery, gerrymandering (oops, that's not unlawful), or vote tampering (that is!)....
If you plan to shoplift, please let us know.
You never expect irony, do you?
Want to be a professional wrestler? Visit www.iyfwrestling.com
@iyfwrestling
My anarchist friends are having a hoot over the stupidity of this law. One anarchist organization is already circulating a letter to South Carolina explaining why they won't be registering.
Somebody pointed out that the law as written is so vague that it actually mandates that the Democratic and Republican parties in South Carolina must register, since they are in favor of "controlling" and "conducting" the U.S. government. Are the Tea Party folks going to register, because they are advocating the ouster of President Obama?
Is this a new Monty Python sketch? It sounds funny, where can I watch it? Seriously though, South Carolina's public schools _are_ ranked last in the nation.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
You have to be planning to overthrow the government by violent or unlawful means.
Okay... So you want to overthrow the government by non-violent and lawful means. Therefore, you need to register, because not registering means you are doing so through unlawful means.
Mind the frickin' laser...
All criminals are required prior to committing their criminal acts, must report to the state or federal prison for voluntary incarceration, and upon release from their voluntary incarceration, are required to wear remote sensing devices to ensure rapid capture by authorities following their illegal acts. Likewise, people expecting to require hospitalisation should report to the hospital, people expecting that they will be struck by lightning should don an anti-lightning suit, etc. Really though, is this the MOST stupid thing that anyone has ever heard? Besides being charged with mass murder (and the terrorist might have died in the process), but know that the state of south carolina (aka state of insanity), will be really really ticked, and you will be in violation of one of their statute laws. Just sayin'. The only real use for this dumb-ass law is if the terrorist doesn't die, the state can sue his poor ass into the ground. How many multi-billion dollar terrorists have you seen running around? Ok, now how many multi-million dollar terrorists? Ok, how many multi-thousand dollar terrorists? Ok, how many multi-buck-and-a-quarter with maxed-out-credit-card terrorists have you seen running around? All rightey then!
Appellant, a Ku Klux Klan leader, was convicted under the Ohio Criminal Syndicalism statute for "advocat[ing] . . . the duty, necessity, or propriety of crime, sabotage, violence, or unlawful methods of terrorism as a means of accomplishing industrial or political reform" and for "voluntarily assembl[ing] with any society, group or assemblage of persons formed to teach or advocate the doctrines of criminal syndicalism." Neither the indictment nor the trial judge's instructions refined the statute's definition of the crime in terms of mere advocacy not distinguished from incitement to imminent lawless action. Held: Since the statute, by its words and as applied, purports to punish mere advocacy and to forbid, on pain of criminal punishment, assembly with others merely to advocate the described type of action, it falls within the condemnation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.
Time to flood the idiots with forms filled in with wonderful organization names. Time to register the TeddyBear's Picnic again: http://www.theage.com.au/national/police-spying-on-activists-revealed-20081015-51k0.html
This article implies that all people who believe in the abolishment of government are in support of terrorism. I for one am an Anarchist, i am also a pacifist, i strongly oppose violent revolution, in my veiw the state must crumble as it becomes obsolete in a better society. I think that can only happen by us creating that society free of class, racism, sexism, homophobia, violence ourselves (which is the nature of Anarchism). WE need to fight hunger and poverty in our community, we need to fight sexism, homophobia and racism within ourselves and our surroundings. Do i sound like a dangerous terrorist to you? I believe it was that crazy radical revolutionary Thomas Jefferson (who fits the definition to be on this list by the way) who said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.", im sure hed be glad to know that we are now making a list of these great patriots and fining and jailing all those who dont sign up. Anon to avoid having Ayn Rand spewed at me.
I feel sorry for the first schmuck to get arrested and imprisoned under this law. At the pace of our justice system it could be decades before the supreme court decides to review a case dealing with this law.
By their definitions, * North Carolina is a "subversive organization" since it "conducts" its government through the use of force (via the police). * Anyone who interacts with the global economy meets the "affiliated...indirectly" part of being under "foreign control". * Anyone who hears a foreign government official quoted on the news and has their opinion influenced (no matter how slightly) meets the definition of a "foreign agent".
As far as I can see, if your interest in overthrowing the government is purely recreational, you're not covered by this law.
-- Old Man Kensey
Well, I suppose that means anybody who is displaying the Declaration of Independence, or who believes in its principles, are now considered outlaws!
The Declaration was a subversive document, pretty much by definition, and advocated the overthrow of governments when the people believed it to be necessary. That is very definitely subversive language, penned and signed by a subversive organization.
In fact, if we look to history and do a real comparison, it advocates the overthrow of governments that rather broadly resemble the Federal government we have today.
Would it be 'advocating overthrow' to advocate the adoption of a 28th Amendment to the U.S. Const. that provides in effect for the repeal of all prior Articles, Amendments and provisions?
This statute was actually passed in 1951; actually, there was an attempt to get the law repeated and they got it backwards. See http://volokh.com/2010/02/10/did-south-carolina-pass-a-subversive-activities-registration-act-last-year/
This is why it took Doe v. Ashcroft to nix the gag order portion of the NSL.
That buch is always spewing anti government nonsense. Or, does the Bill say it's ok if Fox News likes them?
* Carthago Delenda Est *
... South Carolina should have been allowed to secede. I mean, crimeny, just what are the qualifications for public office in that state? Documentation that you've previously been institutionalized?
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Somebody protests something in a sit down. Police officer pulls his back trying to remove subject. Subject is charged for hurting the police officer + this 25k for not registering.
Havenlock Vetinari for any chance? This law seems to come right from one of Discworld books.
Wonder if police in South Carolina will take a hint from Florida and start going after anyone who speaks out against government regardless of their location?
Anyone foolish enough to use software that stores your plain-text passwords for HTTP, HTTPS, svnserve, SSH, and ssh+svn access to a software repository in $HOME/.subversion/auth/* deserves to be forced to register themselves as "too stupid to spell C".
Well I know Linus is pushing for GIT and all; but fuck!
Does it matter if you don't live in the state of South Carolina?
YankDownUnder Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire
We should all register as members of the Galactic Empire or Rebel Alliance.
Next they will make you ...........
(shock,horror) hand in your guns.
I had to say it ;-)
This must mean that Bill O Reilly and FOX News must register now as a subversive organization.
Please mod parent up
this is insightful
What about the RIAA and MPAA? Or any other lobbying group who tries to buy off legislators?
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
badmouthing the government != subversion, since you aren't, you know, actually subverting anything.
Hmmm... maybe I should brush up on the Patriot Act - I think it disagrees with you on this.
StarTrekPhase2 - The Five Year Mission Continues!
Wait, sounds like the Federal Reserve is already in violation.
Vote for America, Vote Elmer Fudd.
Paid for by the people for Elmer Fudd foundation.
But I thought your government was paid for by Mickey Mouse...
isn't armed insurrection one of our constitutional rights?
Does this mean that groups who are properly registered will actually be able to get a license to "Detonate explosives, release poisonous, virulent, or radio-active substances in urban areas, means of public transport, or public meeting places with the intent to inflict injuries or casualties on the general populace"?
Just asking. You just never know with geniuses like that.
Several US states wrote a right of secession into the documents by which they formally ratified the Constitution. Virginia's for instance says "that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression". And the first Congress didn't order them to go back and take that bit out...
Revive the Constitution.
He used peaceful means to provoke the British to use violence. Hence, by this law he would be considered a member of a subversive organization because he used British violence to overthrow the government.
The law does not distinguish between violence used against the government versus violence being used against the organization.
The Supreme Court has already ruled it is perfectly legal to make membership in the Communist party illegal:
http://www.enotes.com/major-acts-congress/communist-control-act
One thing that I think needs to be understood about Jefferson's quotes is that though the man unquestionably was a revolutionary and though it was necessary, that doesn't mean that he though that it was easy or should just be allowed to happen whenever. You'll notice that indeed the Constitution allows for the government to fight against a rebellion. Article 1 Section 8 gives congress the right to suppress insurrections. Article 1 Section 9 allows Congress to suspend Habeus Corpus in cases of rebellion. Article 4 Section 4 says that the government must protect states against invasion and domestic violence.
So while the US was built on a revolutionary foundation, the Constitution still contains (and this was all original, not amended in) clauses allowing and even requiring the government to defend itself and the states against armed rebellion.
The founding fathers would be the first to say that people have a right and a duty to revolt against tyranny, but they also seemed to say that the government has a right to try and stop them.
Now, none of that means that this current law is a good idea (it isn't) or is constitutional (it's not). However you need to understand that just because the US was founded on rebellion doesn't mean the government has to tolerate it. The government is required to tolerate a peaceful overthrow, specifically electing new representatives who then either change the laws or amend the Constitution. It doesn't have to tolerate violent overthrow, and in fact seems to be specifically required to try and stop it.
... the teabagger movement? I'm not sure whether they count as "terrorists" (whatever that means these days), but afaik they are talking about the US needing a new revolution. "Take our country back" etc. Sounds like subversion to me.
Finally, a government with humor. What a great satire on itself, you can't buy tha... uh, wait... they're serious and you can buy them. Doh.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
We here in switzerland are used to put people in Gas Chambers or on the electric chair (maybe a buzzer in native english?) if they do not register. After we drank them...
For decades, foreigners wanting to enter the USA have been obliged to state whether they are terrorists or not (the ubiquitous, humorous visa waiver also asks you to state whether you plan on engaging in immoral activites, hehe) - why should resident terrorists be allowed to operate under false flag ?
"And you are dying so slowly, you believe to be living" - Bertrand Besigye
Title of organization: Dirac Angestun Gesept.
Purpose of organization: Destruction of present government and termination of War Against Terror.
Customary meeting place: Wherever the remnants of the Bush administration can't find us.
Names and address of elected officers: You'll find out when it's too late.
Attach hereto complete list of members: Nah.
is not to gather registrations. It's "we've caught 20 members of a terrorist organization. We pressed charges against 12, we're likely to get another 4 sentenced, but there are these 4 guys about whom we have nothing. They joined recently, didn't get to do anything wrong, didn't participate in the last action, even in planning it, and were generally on their trial period in the organization. There is nothing we can do, we have to let them go."
This way they can sentence them to 10 years for failure to register with secretary of state... or at least that's what they think.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Hmmm... Would this be the same South Carolina that gave the world this delightful young lady ?
This seems like an eminently sensible, workable idea to me :)
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
Great idea, they should expand that.
How about compensation from the muggers guild when you get robbed by an unlicensed mugger?
I think those guys came right from the Diskworld.
No, we already know that, don't we?
But what kind of idiotic law is that? Do they expect that "subversive elements" will now come out in the open and get registered? Isn't that a bit like asking people on the plane whether they are terrorists?
Combining this with the Patriot Act and the fact that online content can be judged by the standards of the strictest community that is able to access it, you should think twice before conspiring against the good will of the nation and its principles.
Who said: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
If he was alive today, and this would be true of the majority of the USA's founding fathers, if they happened to visit the state of South Carolina, they would certainly be subject to this law. And, our founding father's would describe it as "tyranny".
Every law maker that voted for this law should be sent to remedial classes on A) the founding of this country and B) the U.S. Constitution.
According to Eugene Volokh, the law was actually passed in 1951, is something of a dead letter, and they're currently trying to repeal it. Sorry to spoil all the hand-wringing.
No statement is true, not even this one.
I'm really sorry I went to that site. I'm going to have bad dreams like after the first time I saw a Godzilla movie. Every time I looked out a window at night I thought I saw a T-rex staring back at me.
Sorry, but gray text on gray background is making my eyes bleed.
"necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States ... shall register with the Secretary of State"
It says "United States".
Soooooo, it's no problem for people who just want to overthrow the government of South Carolina so that this stupid law can be repealed.
Hello My name is Thomas Jefferson I'm here to register.
Wouldn't this mean that ANY politician or political strategist would need to register?
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -- "Step Right Up", Tom Waits
South Carolina will be requiring all drug dealers to get a license next.
Osama bin Laden, international terrorist leader, was aprehended this morning when he arrived to purchase his permit to engage in subversive activities. bin Laden had ignored the advice of his fellow henchmen to register in Delaware where insurgency laws are considerably more insurgent-friendly.
(c) AP
-- Using the preview button since 2005
This should work as well as gun control does.
That's Acts, not laws. The problem is that each "one" of those Acts may bundle up large numbers of laws, often including entirely unrelated laws. E.g., the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 has stuff about coroners as you might expect, but hidden in there is a law that criminalises possession of all (non-realistic) pr0n depictions of under-18s (i.e., joke images of the Simpsons, as in the Austrialian case), along with all sorts of other laws.
Now sure, there is the question of how we count, and decide what's a different law, but going by the number of Acts is a particularly poor measure.
I used to say the same thing, except I've come to realize it's all semantics, and the constitution never meant a damn thing, not since its ratification, not now, not ever.
Sadly, I have to agree, and it happened right from the start, as you say. For example:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Oh, except for the men from Africa or anyone recently from that lineage. They can be enslaved. I always wondered how they could write those words, then go home to their slaves. (I suppose they didn't see them as "men", which is even more depressing. What groups aren't seen as "men" now?)
After all, she called for nothing less than a revolution.
good way to help out those startup Subversive orgs.
...had better get themselves in the registry. You're "controlling" the government, after all.
This is a law to create a thoughtcrime. Terrorists apparently aren't deterred by threats of punishment after committing their acts; they tend to administer the ultimate punishment to themselves. So governments want ways to prosecute illegal activities before they happen. Thus the threshold of illegal activity moves back from detonating a bomb to building a bomb to designing a bomb to talking about a bomb to thinking about a bomb. It's not irrational to prevent devastating acts by illegalizing their precedents; we already have laws against carrying certain weapons, even though just carrying a weapon doesn't hurt anybody. But when the laws start focusing on speech then the rational response becomes fuzzy.
To use a software analogy, I'm reading the code (the wording of the law). You're reading the comments. Which of us is more likely to know what the program actually does?
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I can't be the only one to notice that the act of instituting a law with contradicts the Constitution under questionable pretense is an act of subverting said Constitution via means of questionable legality. But... that makes anyone involved in the passing of said law a subversive under said law? Um...
I guess some lawmakers are going to have some rather politically embarrassing forms to fill out in the very near future.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
This is the same state in the Union that Out-Sourced the Governor's Mistress.
I see a lot of comments about the constitution and what previous great historic figures said or wrote.
Sure a lot of it is still relevant today but some of it is not. Just like you can believe in god and evolution you should be able to believe that constitutions and laws can and should change. Carefully and only when most people agree.
Actually it should be when most educated people agree but that's idealist of me.
every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States
Emphasis added. Who has to register:
- Anyone who runs for President or another political office.
- Anyone who votes
- Anyone who has a religion/spirituality based in Millenarianism/Revelationism (according to Wikipedia):
Branch Davidians
Dulcinianism
Earth changes
Fifth Monarchy Men
The Heaven's Gate cult
Hojjatieh
The Native American Ghost Dance
Jehovah's Witnesses
Joachimites
Judaism
The Living Church of God
Lord Our Righteousness Church
The Lord's Resistance Army
Millerism
Nostradamus
Plymouth Brethren
Rastafari movement
Shakers
Taiping Rebellion
The Turner Diaries
Yellow Turbans
2012 Doomsday Prediction
No, I don't see nothing wrong with this new law. It's very constitutional.
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http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America
hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. -- Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
... or who lies aboput hiking the Appalachian Trail, or who makes condescending remarks about poor people, or calls the President a liar from the floor of Congress ...
Hey -- it's South Carolina! The 'South Carolina List of Bad Things (tm)' could go on and on.
"I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
Does this affect the government of South Carolina as well? After all, they were the first state to secede from the United States in 1860.
Get back to me when you have an intentionally malicious compiler/interpreter.
Let's cut them some slack here. I mean since they started requiring sex offenders to register as such, there have been what-- five, maybe six kids tops that have been raped? Registration works.I think they are onto something.
I just hope after they set up registration systems for every possible crime someone feels they might commit (speeder registration, jaywalker registration, pot smoker registration) and make it a crime in and of itself to not be registered to commit a crime they are registered to commit, that they set up a unregistered criminal registration system in case I commit a crime I am not registered to commit.
This was not passed last year. This was passed in '51 and it mirrors the federal McCarran act of '50:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran_Internal_Security_Act
What probably threw the original poster was the use of "Current through the end of 2009" language on the
web accessible version. Every Title in the collection has the same language.
is of course finished.
We no longer have a representative government. 85% OF congress is always re-elected, which really doesn't matter anyway because corporations put people in the places of power from either party. Your illusion of voting is there to keep the scenery of democracy recognizable so people are kept in line.
The differences between the two parties are really just to divert attention and amount to very little.
Some predictions on my part:
1) More of the US will become like Detroit, Mich. Mainly looking like a bombed out third world country.
2) Universities. Hey this is a prediction: Universities are next on the chopping block. Over priced, and under powered, American Universities are about to go the way of the do do bird.
The big "University" crashes will come in the next 5 years as the powers that be (Foreign Banks under direction of the Federal Reserve) finish gutting the financial system of the US. University campuses will probably be converted to low income housing "projects" developments for the poor, who are growing by leaps and bounds.
10 Years from now the wealthy will be sending their kids to China to learn Chinese, and to do research or get a job there. The rest of you poor bastards will end up working in a government job, or out on the streets in the projects where massive unrest will be common.
The fastest growing job is going to be in the "goon" squads the government hires to keep all of the mass unrest from getting out of control.
(Luckily since the demise of the University system, you don't need a degree to be a goon, just naivety and loyalty to the government.)
So being a government goon wielding a baton is going to be a BIG growth industry.
3) The US Dollar. Wow, what a huge crash that one is going to be. In the next 5-10 years the US dollar will no longer be a reserve currency. The powers that be won't let it crash all at once of course, they will most likely do a controlled demolition. (Mainly to protect their own assets in the USA.)
They already have started the process using deflation so that those on the top have time to sell their US securities at a decent price before the next phase hits. That will probably come this summer with a huge financial crisis with the banks _again_.
Not sure what excuse they will use this time, last time it was because _the little people where to blame for borrowing money_. My guess is it will be something to do with commercial real estate.
Doesn't matter really, because all of you poor bastards are going to pay, and YOU WILL PAY whatever the Fed decides it wants for its cronies.
Each and every American owes 80,000 dollars. You WILL pay this debt off or your grand kids will...but it WILL be paid.
The end result will be lots of poor and impoverished people with big rolls of money in their pockets looking into super market windows lusting at all of the food on the shelves, but too poor to buy anything except maybe butter and a little bit of flour.
(They won't be breaking those windows because the goons will be out in force on most street corners and businesses.)
4) Bombs. Wow this will be a cottage industry. 10 Years from now I see bombs going off all over the place. Washington DC will be transformed into a fortress with most of the government buildings moved or removed from the public eyes so they can't be hit by "terrorists" (i.e. People who are wondering why they have been robbed by the banks and have decided the political system doesn't work anymore and resort to violence to change it by assassinations on corporate and government leaders.)
I mean already all 10 heads of the Federal Reserve have private high tech militarys guarding their homes and families. All of them live in closed gated and heavily defended communities.
I wonder what they are afraid of? They couldn't possibly doing something illegal or criminal and are afraid of retribution could they?
5) Finally, a terrorist attack. Its going to happen. Not sure
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
Does this mean that vote suppression during elections, vote buying, bribes by lobbyists, and other illegal activities by political parties and lobbyists require subversive registration?
This law was put in place to weed out and convict terrorist groups. Ironic isn't it... that the wording could be used to against the GOP and the Tea Party Movement. Cause they could easily be described as "...a subversive organization" consisting of "...person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States". The wording can equally be applied to Osama Bin Laden and Al Jazzera as it could to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News cause neither group like Obama or what he stands for. They both want him out of office; i.e.- To overthrow the current government of the USA.
"If it's got a switch... it's my bitch!!"
What groups aren't seen as "men" now?)
Women. Homosexuals. Atheists. Non-US citizens.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
This probably will help to tie up people that they hold under suspission... so it isn't such a bad idea, for an over-controlling government.
I feel a need to sign up, to protest exactly this sort of thing.
I agree completely, Bill O'Reilly is a failure.
The only important part of your emphasized portion of the law is "OR OTHER UNLAWFUL MEANS". This can mean _anything_ illegal, including picketing or protesting without a permit. So, if you and one or more people go protest something, and don't have a permit, you will not only be charged with protesting without a permit, but will also be charged and fined or imprisoned under this law.
Another interesting aspect of it is that it could be used to put all the members of entire lobbying organizations in jail if they engage in any illegal activities during their practice of "... controlling, conducting ... the government of the United States..."
IANAL
They arrested Capone for tax evasion. Woulda taken them longer to find something to stick him with if he'd filled in that "illegal income" line on his tax return.
Women.
Yeah?
Homosexuals.
Right.
Atheists.
Laws or just bloviators?
Non-US citizens.
Most certainly. I guess they didn't get endowed by their Creator, eh?
Add citizens the government suspects to be threats:
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
The founding fathers would be the first to say that people have a right and a duty to revolt against tyranny, but they also seemed to say that the government has a right to try and stop them.
They also thought their design for a limited government was right and just (and would last).
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Hell yeah! I'm Dutch, but I'd register right away! :)
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Have all members of both political parties, all representitives of the RIAA and MPAA registered yet?
he said "crackin"
Ask Me About... The 80's!
I am in awe of the sagacity of the SC legislators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_(novel)#Reception
End MGM. Get prospective parents of boys to Google: Men do complain
Isn't every politician running for office attempting to seize control of the government?
The terms of this chapter do not apply to any labor union or religious, fraternal or patriotic organization, society or association, or their members, whose objectives and aims do not contemplate the overthrow of the government of the United States, of this State or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence or other unlawful means. Otherwise a really stupid law.
It is probably easier to prosecute "failing to register" as a crime, than it is to prosecute for allegedly performing the proscribed activites.
This is a "nutty" law: Who would register? The only thing I can think is there would be accusations... "other unlawful means". What does it mean? Is this a "draconian" law? Is it "subversive" to speak out against corruption in politics? How about a citizen's "duty" to vote to throw out a politician? Is that going too far? Does this mean, it is necessary to "request" people get out and vote to throw out a politician? What is a "political subdivision"? What is that? The "county" or a "city" local government? Ooh, let's overthrow a "county"? ..."controlling"? It seems this law is for making accusations against any opposition to bad government.
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
As is Benjamin Franklin.
They who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety
And Thomas Jefferson
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press.
Dirac Angestum Gesept.
Does that include all the Fox News Republicans who want to throw out all the Democrats? And vice versa when W was in there? I am already registered to vote.
every member of a subversive organization, or an organization subject to foreign control, every foreign agent and every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States ... shall register with the Secretary of State.
(1) "Subversive organization" means every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States, of this State or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence or other unlawful means;
[W]hen a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
I know it is too late to be commenting on this thread, but I feel I must.
The Declaration of Independence advises the duty of overthrowing the government of the United States. The United States, in turn, is a society comprised of two or more persons which directly advises the duty of overthrowing the government of the United States (the distinction being the nation and the government). Furthermore the intended means for such overthrow is obviously the use of guns, as evidenced by the Second Amendment and extensive clarifying writings from the authors of the charter. The only remaining question is the final phrase of the S.C. law:
by force or violence or other unlawful means
Given that overthrowing the government is written into the charter of the nation, it seems obvious that it cannot be unlawful. It then falls to the question of the meaning of the phrase "...or other unlawful means". If that phrase implies that the previous factors "force" or "violence" are only covered if they are unlawful means, then this law does not apply to United States citizens. If not, then it applies to all United States citizens.
Given the uncertainty of such vague phrasing in courts of law, I think that South Carolina must intend for all United States citizens to register. However, registration costs $5. That leads to only one conclusion: Like most states South Carolina is having budget problems and is hoping to close the gap by collecting $1.5 billion in registration fees.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
And you are Dick Cheney. :)
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
Does that mean any politician in and from NC would have to register, particularly if they received any money from any foreign source? How about newspapers with readers outside the US that publish any editorial about changing/making laws?
...have already overthrown the legitimate governments by unlawful means. After all, most of the laws they write and which are enforced are clearly unconstitutional. Can this new law be used to put all our congresscritters and such in jail?
Sorry as seemingly ridiculous this is, it scares the pants off me. It's only a matter of time before the courts start interpreting anyone's behavior as teaching or practicing the duty of overthrowing the government of the US, the state of SC, or any political subdivision by unlawful means. e.g. a religious organization whose behavior the court doesn't approve of.
Guess the U.S. Congress, the President (doesn't matter which one), and the board members of most of the large Wall Street corps and banks (Goldman Sachs come to mind) should line up first. Oh, well, maybe they should start with the clueless assholes who thought of this and passed it.
Contrary to popular opinion, stupidity is not a virtue.
If I was a citizen of South Carolina I would happily register, I am the "Chief Agent" of the "Legion of Doom" we plan to overthrow the government with cakes, delicious lemon cakes. /s
Seriously though, shame the system. Drag it through the mud in open public view exposing it for the stupidity it truly is. Spoof it, mock it, make a couple dozen demotivational posters of it, sarcasm is a very effective weapon against governmental stupidity.