Steve Jobs Lashes Out At Android

Ponca City writes "Steve Jobs doesn't usually make a guest appearance on Apple's post-earnings conference calls with analysts, but this time he made an exception, attacking Google for marketing its operating system as 'open' versus Apple's 'closed' iOS. 'Google loves to characterize Android as "open" and iOS and iPhone as "closed." We find this a bit disingenuous, and clouding the real difference between our two approaches,' said Jobs. 'Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.' Jobs stated that the real debate is between 'fragmented versus integrated' and which is better for the consumer. 'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.' Jobs also criticized the Android Marketplace, pointing out that there are at least three other app stores being launched by vendors, causing confusion for users and work for developers. 'This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers,' Jobs said. 'Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the easiest-to-use, largest app store in the world, preloaded on every iPhone.'"

Comments

Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[rwa2]

I hear it's so much better when someone else adjusts all the straps for you.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[eepok]

Done in one! I'd +1 ya, if I could.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[rtkluttz]

Both sides (as well as Windows and MacOS desktops) need to learn that it is not acceptable to lock me out of my own device.... under any circumstance.
It is not acceptable to encrypt any communication in a way that *** I *** as the owner of the device am refused from seeing what is sent. In other words, my device shall not be used to keep me out of the loop. Trust is between me and my device and me and any company I choose to deal with. Not between the company and my device.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[node 3]

I hear it's so much better when someone else adjusts all the straps for you.

Like HTC or LG? Verizon?

With Android, it's "open" unless you want to include Google's full Android functionality, then there are some artificial technical requirements. But even so, you can still customize it quite a bit, with "you" being the hardware manufacturer. Finally, you take it to the carrier who locks it down some more. I'm not saying this to knock Android itself, just the notion that it's some sort of Freedom system like Linux is. It's similar, and the end products are a bit more open than iOS, but they are nothing like what people like to pretend.

As for iOS's "straightjacket", that implies extremely limited freedom. It takes an exceptionally warped sense of reality to think of iOS like a straightjacket. iOS has, and continues to, outsell Android. Consumers aren't forced to do this by monopoly, nor do they do so out of convenience or cost (like the inevitable McDonald's comparison), they do this because they specifically choose to. People don't generally choose things that are so severely limiting like straightjackets, so something's definitely off in your analogy.

There's no doubt that Android is more open than iOS. What is in doubt is the extremes being portrayed, and more to the point, how much that difference matters to the common consumer. The answer so far is quite clear.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[biryokumaru]

My god... it's like voting in America. Everyone complains that both sides have all the same flaws, but no one is willing to admit that there's more than two options.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[theaveng]

Sadly the US Congress (and possibly the EU Parliament) disagrees with you.

They've passed numerous laws that say device makers can encrypt data, in order to prevent the user from violated (possibly) copyrighted material. VCRs did it first, then DVD players, then DVRs, next cable/dish systems, and now computers and cellphones.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[johnlcallaway]

Nielsen: Android market share eclipses iPhone

Another Apple myth tossed out.....

Android provides choice. There are many different models out there, some with keyboards, some with fancy organic screens, all kinds of features.

With iPhone, your choices are .... how much memory do you want. Wow .. thanks for understanding exactly what I want in a phone Steve. But your ESP is off, I like using memory cards and having accessible batteries and keyboards.

The rest of the crap you talked about being the 'strength' of Apple doesn't mean diddly squat. My HTC phone worked out of the box, always has. It has never frozen up. I've never been 'confused' about apps.

And I like sorting out all the different phone options.

In fact, I DEMAND to have the choice.

Oh wait .. I did...

I didn't pick an iPhone.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[elrous0]

Yes, but it's a very pretty straightjacket. It's the kind of straightjacket you can wear into a coffeehouse and let everyone know "I'm no poseur." It's not very warm, but you'll be smug as a bug in the warm self-satisfaction that comes with knowing you're better than everyone else.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[jebrew]

As is typical in arguments like this, the truth is somewhere in between.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_os#Market_share

If analytic firms (and their summaries on Wikipedia) are to be believed (and for this I'm too lazy to do real follow up), then iOS is currently #2, but should be supplanted sometime in 2011 or 2012 (read paragraphs 3-4).
Android is gaining market share primarily at the expense of RIM.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[node 3]

Nielsen: Android market share eclipses iPhone

Another Apple myth tossed out.....

In the US, and not iOS but just iPhone. Worldwide iPhone outsells Android phones, and even in the US, iOS outsells outsells Android. And overall market share, iOS is far ahead at 120 million devices sold.

It's sad that Slashdot is so ill-informed that something so woefully false is so widely believed. Fanboyism is funny that way. It doesn't only apply to those you disagree with, you gotta watch out for it in yourself.

Android provides choice.

Yes it does. Not as much choice as some people like to pretend, but it certainly offers more choice in hardware.

With iPhone, your choices are .... how much memory do you want. Wow .. thanks for understanding exactly what I want in a phone Steve. But your ESP is off, I like using memory cards and having accessible batteries and keyboards.

Given the exceptional success of the iPhone, iPod touch and iPad, I'd say his "ESP" is spot on. It failed for you, and that's fine. But it certainly has succeeded far beyond the competition.

The rest of the crap you talked about being the 'strength' of Apple doesn't mean diddly squat. My HTC phone worked out of the box, always has. It has never frozen up. I've never been 'confused' about apps.

I never said any of those things.

And I like sorting out all the different phone options.

Hooray for you.

In fact, I DEMAND to have the choice.

And I "DEMAND" quality. Fortunately there are products that cater to both of us.

Oh wait .. I did...

I didn't pick an iPhone.

Again, hooray for you. As long as you like the product you bought, what's it to me? Unlike the Android fanboys, I don't get all worked up if someone else decides they like the phone system I didn't buy. I won't put you down for it, I won't make fun of you or your phone. What I *won't* let go unchallenged, however, is all the bullshit you fanboys spew forth. You get simple facts like market share wrong, and wildly exaggerate things like "openness" and "choice". I'm glad those things have such great meaning for you, but any pretense that the market cares even half as much as you do about these things is delusion.

I rarely read replies, so don't assume you won your argument just because I don't respond....

Wow, what a douche.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[node 3]

As is typical in arguments like this, the truth is somewhere in between.

I don't see how that makes any sense. I said iOS has, and continues to, outsell Android. There's no "in-between" about it.

If analytic firms (and their summaries on Wikipedia) are to be believed (and for this I'm too lazy to do real follow up), then iOS is currently #2, but should be supplanted sometime in 2011 or 2012 (read paragraphs 3-4).

I never made any claims about 2011/2012. But I will make one claim right now: it's absurd to place any faith in numbers like this for over a year from now. It's definitely possible for Android to surpass iOS, and if it does, I won't lie and pretend like it hasn't, like Slashdot Android fanboys are doing now.

One reason such a claim is absurd is that a Verizon iPhone will significantly alter the market. So will the iPhone 5. So will an Android analog of an iPhone 5 (which is unlikely, but possible). So will a successful Android tablet (again, unlikely).

What I'm saying is, I would be quite surprised, but don't find it impossible, for Android to begin to actually outsell iOS by 2012. I would be utterly amazed were it to also have a greater total market share by then. But only time will tell. As for now, what I wrote is 100% correct, no in-between about it.

Slashdot has a raging hardon for Android. Understandable given its geek appeal, but it's clouding the judgement of presumably otherwise rational people. In April, the common notion was that iPad would sell great for a few weeks as all the Apple fanboys bought them, then it would peter out, become a dud, and by the fall, all the numerous Android tablets would dominate the market. Now, it's iOS is being outsold by Android, and consumers are choosing "freedom" because Steve Jobs wants to control everything you do on your phones and iPods/iPads.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[TrancePhreak]

If you demand quality, don't get an iPhone 4.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[aztracker1]

Honestly the biggest thing that has kept me away from the iPhone is AT&T... I would probably consider a switch if it were available on other carriers.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[node 3]

I chose an iPhone 4 specifically because I demand quality. Openness is good, and I do value it, but the difference in openness between iOS and Android is not enough to offset the difference in quality (both hardware and software) for me.

You'll notice in my posts I never tell people what to buy, or even what to prefer in a product. I just explain my choices and values, and the objective metrics of how the products fare in the world at large. Yet I'm the one who gets called "fanboy". Astonishing.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[Nemyst]

Why was this post modded informative when half the thing should be marked with [citation needed]? The GP gave numbers backing what he was saying. I could say that RIM has, in fact, sold 100x more BBs than Apple has sold iPhones in the last 70 years. What exactly makes my or the parent's sayings have any credibility? I'm not saying they're wrong (although it does look a little suspicious that you essentially contradict the GP directly by saying that iOS outsells Android when Android has more market share in the US from the data provided), but until what you've said has been backed up, it's all hot air.

Plus, your demand quality part is ironic; wouldn't that be a thinly veiled attack saying that Android does not offer quality? So much for not being a fanboy...

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[severoon]

Actually, I hate hard keyboards. I used to begrudgingly require them on any smartphone I would consider buying because soft keyboards sucked so much.

That is, till I got my hands on a Vibrant. The Swype soft keyboard is an awesome experience and I can type far faster on it than any hard keyboard...with a little use I'm even approaching speeds I can type on a normal computer keyboard (not quite, but reasonably close for a mobile phone).

So Jobs was right—everyone ought to abandon the hard keyboard and it's fine to restrict all users to a soft one—oh wait except iPhone doesn't have the Swype keyboard OH WELL.

:->

Ok, even though up until now I've been a snarky little b!tch, allow me to say that I do see that Apple has a purpose. As long as there is competition and choice in the marketplace, I would prefer to see enough Apple fanbois and Jobs hangers-on to keep them going for the simple reason that: Jobs makes right decisions enough of the time to drive the market to interesting places. For instance, the first iPhone. Is there any doubt that the smartphone landscape would look like it now does if it wasn't for the first real entry based on a clean, minimalistic design? I didn't buy it myself because I didn't like it, but I liked the idea of it, and that was enough for a critical mass of people to kick the whole thing off.

Up to that point the only thing I could see getting kicked off was the front teeth of the head designer that pushed out the turd labeled Nokia N75, which I had the misfortune of being given at work. By the time I upgraded that phone, the prospect of using it for one more day made me want to Krazy glue my hands to the side of my head after tying my neck to a tree with a long piano wire, and then drive off at speed while making a crazy expression (just to add a bit of color to the situation for whoever finds me).

And that hasn't stopped—the Macbook Air, the iPad, even the iPhone 4 hi-res screen will hopefully mean that in a year no smartphone will be taken seriously unless it has a 300+ ppi screen. That would be awesome.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[Anonymous Coward]

My god... it's like voting in America. Everyone complains that both sides have all the same flaws, but no one is willing to admit that there's more than two options.

Like the new Windows phone!

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[HermMunster]

Generally seems like an Apple slide--pie charts with a healthy topping of reality distortion and totally out of context.

Jobs is a fool. A ridiculous fool. For the few choices one has with the iPhone that product is remarkably fragmented. The original iPhone doesn't run iOS 4 neither does the 3G. The 3GS maybe and the 4 but in the next release expect the 3GS to be outmoded.

One company with a relatively narrow marketed item is more fragmented than the whole of the Android market combined.

I sure it is the case, but I have not heard of a device refusing to run Android 2.2--aside from it maybe not being released. Many find they can get it installed without the vendor's sanction.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[rtb61]

Of course the Steve Jobs rant of course indicates the writing is on the wall. So what has Jobs shorts in such a twist, iJunk with bloated iProfit margins, is now iOld and no longer iCool whilst of course Android devices are the new cool.

Whilst everyone with an ounce of experience realises it is quite normal for consumer products rangers targeted at teens to cycle from popularity to obscurity, those profiting by always refuse to accept it, very iLame. Public tantrum displays that get through to the target audience of those products only accelerates the process. There is something very, I own those customers, they must buy my product, they must love me, about it all that puts people off.

That different manufacturers can tweak their Android products to suit themselves is proof of openness. That users can go on to tweak those manufacturers products to suit themselves is further proof of openness. Android is the current cool product, get over it apple marketdroids, in five years time who knows what will be the next cool tech item, it could even be an over price under performing apple product ;D (you deserve that for your aggressive forum marketing efforts).

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[yeshuawatso]

Android is designed to run on PHONES, not tablets and portable music players. Just because it can doesn't mean that's what it's designed for, and it would make sense to compare Android, which is predominately a mobile phone OS, to the just the iPhone which is a mobile phone as well.

That's like saying that Windows is the most popular PC operating system in the world then redefine PC as any machine that processes binary data in people's home; then some Linux nut says that you should include all devices that process binary data and Linux would be the clear winner because Linux covers mobile devices, servers, mainframes, and super computers as well as DVD players, routers, and DVRs. The market is sliced up iPhone vs Android because of the primary function (being a phone) that's being marketed, not what other companies have decided to make it do.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[indiechild]

It's because the real religious zealot nutcases are the "open" fanboys. They're so into "openness", that they actively go out and insult people and put others down for their choices. Funny that.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[lonecrow]

Steve for Prez so that he can make the trains run on time.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[robogun]

You don't have a choice, for a reason called forced artificial scarcity (F.A.R.T.S.). Not a joke.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18817_5-reasons-future-will-be-ruled-by-b.s..html

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[horigath]

node 3 probably didn't feel a need to cite the figures because they are given in the article.

“Last week, Eric Schmidt reiterated that they are activating around 200,000 Android devices per day,” Jobs said. “For comparison, Apple has activated around 275,000 iOS devices per day on average for the last 30 days, with a peak of almost 300,000 iOS devices per day on a few of those days.”

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[Cro Magnon]

Have you ever been tied up with a utility belt? Trust me, the straightjacket is much more comfortable.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[jebrew]

Sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear.
You are correct that iOS currently has more users than Android.
You are incorrect in stating that iOS devices are outselling Android devices.
Ergo, the truth lies between your assertion that iOS is more popular and outselling Android and others assertions that Android is more popular than iOS.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[stewbacca]

And I like sorting out all the different phone options.

In fact, I DEMAND to have the choice.

Oh wait .. I did...

I didn't pick an iPhone.

That was a whole lot of ranting with an incredibly self-evident conclusion.

This is why I laugh at people who take so much time to rip something they aren't going to buy anyways.

Re:Next up: straightjackets vs. utility belts

[abhi_beckert]

Comparing iphone to android is like comparing toyota prius to fossil fuelled cars. The real comparison is iPhone OS vs Android. And in that comparison... iPhone OS market share is more than double the iPhone market share, and significantly bigger than android's marketshare.

It's the operating system marketshare that matters, not whether or not there's an app to make phone calls.

Also, androids marketshare is piss-poor in the country where I live, and I've heard it's like that in most countries. The study you linked is US-only.

Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[eldavojohn]

With a single tweet:

the definition of open: "mkdir android ; cd android ; repo init -u git://android.git.kernel.org/platform/manifest.git ; repo sync ; make"

The best part is Andy Rubin started as an engineer at Apple in 1989.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[blair1q]

a vanishingly small percentage of the population would even know what cd means, much less make

Then "open" will (and should) mean nothing to them. And Jobs' rant will be seen by them as a lot of flapping and not much flying, as by a chicken; a plucked chicken.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[c]

Hate to get all Stallman on you, but any definition of open that doesn't include "make install" is rather weak.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[mrjatsun]

The tweet is FUD... He missed the most important part.. How do you install this on a Droid or most other
Android devices? You need to root it just like you do to jailbreak a iPhone.

Android devices are far from open.. Don't believe the hype... My hope is for
a Ubuntu tablet.. Maybe that will actually be open...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[im_thatoneguy]

That would be meaningful if I could put that into a usable device without voiding all of my carrier user agreements.

"Somewhere out there is a magical open android!"
"If it's not on my phone I don't care."

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Chees0rz]

My principle complaint of the Android devices when I had one was that a simple OS update meant reinstalling all of my apps! Why in the world would someone allow that to be shipped?

Were you an early adopter? I did not need to do this on my HTC Incredible when moving from 2.0 to 2.2 (froyo). Of course, I did have to wait for HTC to release it.

My roommate went the other approach and installed it himself. Not sure what he ran into...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[iluvcapra]

the definition of open

Behold, the freedom the carriers have to create the branded experience, instead of the manufacturer.

It's well and good that you can build it yourself, but the practical effect is to allow the handset makers and cellular carriers to turn their subscriber's eyeballs into commodities they resell back to Google. "Open" is only a virtue to those who open the box, to everyone else the benefits accrue to others.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[AndrewNeo]

What exactly is "make install" supposed to do when building Android..?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[DoomHamster]

Great...now everyone will be bash-ing Android.....

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[ArcherB]

The problem with this as it relates to the market is that a vanishingly small percentage of the population would even know what cd means, much less make. These markets serve people that want to get stuff done (email, phone, text, post to websites/blogs/etc...) and are not remotely interested in using the device to geek out on it. They use the devices that allow them to do what they want while staying out of the way. My principle complaint of the Android devices when I had one was that a simple OS update meant reinstalling all of my apps! Why in the world would someone allow that to be shipped? I swore off Android at that point, but may look at it again some time in the future.

For now, iOS lets me do what I need to do without getting in the way or making me find the right libraries or compile anything. When I spend time compiling software for the iOS, I want it to do something new and perhaps make some money while doing it.

I have an HTC Evo since the day it was released. Since then, I've been through a few minor updates and a major release (Froyo). I have never had to reinstall apps and I've never had to worry about libraries or compiling anything at all. For that matter, I've never known anyone to have to compile anything for Android with the exception of a developer I know.

So, I don't know what phone or Android version you're running, but it can't be anything recent. I think your issues could be compared with someone bashing Ubuntu because way back when they ran Linux, they had to compile everything from source.

As for Apple, I have two iPod Touch units, one 3rd Gen and one 4th Gen. I've had to reinstall different software apps several times and had some just stop working after a time (don't know if an update caused the problems). Of course, when something stops working on the iPod/Phone, there's really nothing you can do except uninstall and reinstall and see if that fixes your issue. Other than that, well, just uninstall and hope you can get your money back if it's an app you paid for. Those issues were with the 3rd Gen. I can't really speak for the 4th Gen as it only worked for a couple of days before I had to send it back to Apple. Apple service was great, but I shouldn't of had to send the damn thing back in the first place. I didn't have to pay any money for the repair, but it did cost me several hours trying to figure out what was wrong + a trip to the UPS store to have it shipped back to Apple.

Oh, and don't even get me started on iTunes...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[BWJones]

We'll see what happens then... However, the market seems to indicate that your compass may be a bit off... Don't get me wrong, I am all for diverse ecosystems including portable OS systems. For me this is not about marketshare, but what works for me. The iOS works better for me than the Android. Your milage may vary.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "root" you mean "overwrite the software on the phone" then yes, you do need to replace the software on the phone to replace the software on the phone.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[doti]

MeeGo, man.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[spinkham]

Ah, you've misread who it's "open" for..

BSD/Apache style licenses intend to provide "openness" for developers and hardware makers.

GPL(especially v3) intends to provide openness for the end user.

Both are valid, but different. Android is mostly Apache 2.0 licensed, and that decision and thinking show through the Android ecosystem.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[tophermeyer]

Were you an early adopter?

I was. Until recently I was limited to 1.6 on my apparently ancient G1/HTC Dream. When I finally got around to getting a custom ROM on it, I did have to reinstall all my apps and data. This was expected of course, but I think I would have preferred just getting the updates to 2.2.

Funnily enough (and back OT) it was the fragmented nature of the platform that pushed me towards a community ROM. In that respect I am very grateful that the platform is open. I happen to be geeky enough that I looked at this as a challenge to overcome as a hobby. But as always, geeks beget geeking. I personally enjoy the experience. But I can certainly understand why some users would prefer a phone that "just works".

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[thepike]

That's not a problem with Android, it's a problem with the phones.

And I think we can all (users of Android, iOS, BB, Windows Mobile, Symbian, whatever) agree that the real evil is the phone companies.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[wfolta]

"Overseer of Android" aside, one question: what versions of Android, and with what phones can one follow those instructions? Not Google's development version, I gather. And you will brick some phones if you attempt to install your own compile on them. Are the skins that most manufacturers stick onto Android also open source? And how about the apps? Surely the ones from Google itself are open source, right?

As far as I can tell, Android is not open source in the same sense as I usually use the word (and the software, ironically on a Mac). And Android's customers are not us paying customers, but rather the manufacturers and carriers, anyhow.

Funny how we forget all of these nameless Overseers at the manufacturers and carriers who, for decades, have decided what consumers should want. Engineers designing our phones and telling us we should love the crap for so long, but now all of slashdot's wrath focuses on Overlord Steve Jobs. At least he has a sense of design, a concern for end user experience, and some restraint.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[tophermeyer]

But the openness doesn't come from the handset itself. Unless you buy direct from a manufacturer, the handsets will be locked down to the specifications of whichever service provider you bought it from.

Androids openness comes from the distribution of the platform. Once you do root you have an incredible amount of options and level of freedom on an Android device. Much more AFAIK than on any iOS device.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[RoccamOccam]

As a happy N900 user, I'm hoping that this hits the ground running. I certainly like the approach.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[hitmark]

Except that do not include the G-apps or market. And good luck finding the high profile apps outside of market (legally at least) even if they are free...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Bill_the_Engineer]

With a single slashdot post:

There's a difference between an "open phone OS" and an "open phone".

The OS is open, but the phone is not nor is the Google apps that Google only makes available to the headset manufacturers. Luckily there's been a link to a Google App pkg file that can be downloaded separately from CyanogenMod.

A possible analogy is:

While Linux is an open source operating system, the TiVo that uses it is not.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[b0bby]

My principle complaint of the Android devices when I had one was that a simple OS update meant reinstalling all of my apps! Why in the world would someone allow that to be shipped?

I don't have an Android or an iphone, but I do have an ipod Touch. I just had to reinstall itunes after a hard drive crash. If I want to sync my touch, I'm going to have to download all my apps and then resync them, even though it's the same account so I shouldn't have to repurchase them. The sync is going to wipe everything, which is pretty annoying. Even my Zune lets me do a guest sync...

So, nothing is perfect.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[hitmark]

While it will be a brick and a half, bug labs have a product that can have modules supporting GSM/UMTS or CDMA2K attached (they are talking to both AT&T and Verizon right now). And yes, it will run android. Only problem is that so far the only screen available is a 2.5" at 320x240.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[gilesjuk]

So what does that mean to the end user?

Nothing of course. Most end users aren't geeks, they just want a product that works and is easy to use.

Many people stick with Windows due to the familiar user interface. But with Android how can anyone know what interface you're going to get? You can end up in the position of having a phone where the UI is great but the hardware sucks, only to see a phone with great hardware and a UI that sucks.

Many OEMs using Android are parasites, they are taking the OS, sticking their own UI on it and not contributing anything back!

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[iluvcapra]

That's not a problem with Android, it's a problem with the phones.

How is one supposed to use Android without the phone? You can't evaluate Android independent of its use on a particular piece of hardware.

the real evil is the phone companies.

And the distribution and marketing model of Android guarantees the carrier and phone manufacturer the ability to do whatever they please. Android strikes a blow for software freedom while grievously wounding network freedom. If you are a tinkerer the you'll benefit from the open OS, Google and Motorola certainly do, they get free bugfixes from users all over the world! But if you are a non-hacking end user Android is just another carrier and manufacturer straight-jacket. Android is a phone company's handmaiden.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[icebraining]

Yeah? How's this for numbers?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[c]

It's a short hand for "install the build somewhere". Something which many in the latest crop of Android devices aren't too friendly about. If Google really wanted to equate Android with "open", they'd stop allowing the use of the Android trademark by manufacturers and carriers who lock down devices that way...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[mrjatsun]

by "root" I mean wait for someone to find a bug in the firmware so a program can be created to re-program the flash.

i.e. see Droid 2. It is not open.
      http://www.androidpolice.com/2010/08/25/motorola-droid-2-rooted/

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[tibman]

you are still using the original iphone?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[h4rr4r]

Only on droid 2, droid 1 you just flash a rom that is already rooted on to the phone.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[NatasRevol]

Which is exactly why SJ is trying to reframe the discussion from open/closed to fragmented/integrated. It makes more sense to the average phone buyer.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[h4rr4r]

As an android user facing the reality of future devices prevented from running stock builds I hope Nokia does well. Once my contract ends I will probably have to go that way.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[thepike]

You could run it on a tablet (Archos and a couple others did it, I hear Dell has plans to, but we'll see if that pans out) or an e-reader (Nook) or a netbook (Aspire One). It still runs, you can still do what you want/need to with it, but you don't need the phone (or the contracts)

Granted, most of these have proprietary overlays, but it doesn't make the OS itself any less open. I'd even posit that the fact that so many different companies are using it for so many different purposes indicates that it is open.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[h4rr4r]

You can use the emulator, it will let you evaluate it just fine without a phone.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[beelsebob]

No, that's not the definition of open unless you can actually manage to get it onto a device, which, for most devices, you can't.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[froggymana]

Umm... Android is actually outselling iOS... I'm rather curious to see where you got that info from.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[shmlco]

So the definition of "open" is simply the ability to download and build a rather large chunk of code completely written by someone else???

Because that's all that single tweet is doing...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[monopole]

Was just typing nearly the same thing in this morning to get an up to date version of Android-x86 Froyo for my T91MT.
Of course if you tried to do that w/ iOS you'd be committing several felonies

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[ceoyoyo]

Exactly.

To actually USE Android you need a device to install it on. Those devices generally don't let you install Android on them. So Android being "open" is kind of irrelevant.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[AltairDusk]

Your apps should have only needed re-installation if you performed a full wipe as part of the update.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[iluvcapra]

Granted, most of these have proprietary overlays, but it doesn't make the OS itself any less open.

What good is open if it's just a line of bash(1)? Software openness is supposed to benefit everyone, not just the companies that sell you their paint-by-numbers no-source-available iterations of it. It's not like any of these products are any cheaper to the end user because the OS is open, or the choice in applications isn't really all that better because it's open. And you're really evading the main point, that this is an OS for the exploitation of vast untapped smartphone markets. People want mobile internet, and Android is happy to give it to them on the carrier's terms. Apple at least had the good sense to see the cellular networks as adversaries, and to prevent their interference in the transaction between the hardware vendor and the end user. But Android is obsequious to their will -- the OHA is little more than a proxy for cellular network providers and commodity handset manufacturers.

This is the pursuit of "open software" as a marketing bullet-point, and not as a thoroughgoing commitment to the freedom of users to do "what they want" with "their phone." Rubin's tweet really encapsulates Google's attitude toward openness. What he left out was:

if you understood what this meant, share the lolz on #android. Otherwise RTFS, n00b; open is wasted on you.

Typical elite geek attitude that only people who know how to hack are entitled to the fullest benefits of computing.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[icebraining]

Talk about disingenuous. This story is about iOS vs Android, you can't compare AAPL with GOOG like they don't have any other products.

-AAPL's cash flow beat GOOG's *total* revenue this quarter. $5.7B vs $5.5B

Revenue numbers don't tell the whole story: AAPL's profit margin is 21.44%, while GOOG's is 28.26%.

-AAPL had 2x revenue in iPhone compared to *all* of HTCs phones $5.3B vs $2.5B

So now
1) HTC is Google
2) Android is only sold on HTC

Even if they're slightly better, Apple isn't only iOS and they're not so much better anyway.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[nine-times]

Great that you can alter Android's kernel. Too bad you can't just install it on whatever Android phone you want to.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[AltairDusk]

On a Nexus One it's as simple as unlocking with the fastboot tool they provide you with. Not all Android hardware is maliciously locked down and I always recommend phones that aren't if I know the person asking might be interested in trying a custom ROM. Now I must nitpick a bit here, what you're thinking of is unlocking the bootloader which is not the same as rooting.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[BWJones]

Naw. Moved onto the 3g, skipped the 3gs and now on the iPhone 4.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[h4rr4r]

The Tivo is open source, open only means you can see the source. What you mean is free software.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[AltairDusk]

How do you expect the software to fix this? That is a problem that is created by and can only be solved by your carrier and their policies. I say damn the carrier and install the ROM you want anyway, don't worry we won't tell them if you don't.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Abcd1234]

Of course, that would be silly, as the carriers and device manufacturers are Google's customers. Not us. Them. Anyone who claims otherwise doesn't understand the telecom business.

The real question is, *why* is Google pushing to get into mobile? The obvious answer is that it gives them a whole new avenue for advertising, data gathering, etc. Google TV? Same thing.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Whoops my bad... Yes you are correct.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Abcd1234]

Only on droid 2, droid 1 you just flash a rom that is already rooted on to the phone.

Oh, well, that totally invalidates his point about the droid 2...

Besides, given the Droid 2 is locked down, I think it safe to say that's what Motorola intended from the get-go. They just happened to fail with the Droid 1.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Bill_the_Engineer]

No I take that back. What I meant was that the software may be open, but that doesn't mean the hardware is (or easily modifiable).

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[phaggood]

How is this - http://bit.ly/dxd1Ya - overpriced @ $139 wholesale?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[alex_guy_CA]

Moderators, parent is NOT a troll. Above is a vald and thoughtful comment.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Khue]

The tweet is FUD... He missed the most important part.. How do you install this on a Droid or most other Android devices? You need to root it just like you do to jailbreak a iPhone.

Android devices are far from open.. Don't believe the hype... My hope is for a Ubuntu tablet.. Maybe that will actually be open...

Isn't your argument flawed though? Apple vertically monopolizes the entirety of the platform by dictating hardware, software, and subsequently content to some degree. Droid phones need to be rooted because of additional software phone companies place on these devices to prevent their "bloatware" from being removed. While Droid based phones may be "far from open" the culture promoted by Google, is quite the opposite from the culture imposed by Apple. Conceptually the tweet is accurate, in practice not so much. I feel like the arguments being pushed by Jobs are trying to point out what's wrong with Droid, but they are somewhat out of context, because at the level Jobs is advocating it's really Apple vs. Phone companies and not Apple vs. Google.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[jo_ham]

It gives you the option to copy your apps back *from* the device into iTunes if they are missing. I know this because I too have not long recovered from an HD crash - as in last year or so. I can't imagine the function has been removed.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[shutdown -p now]

It's not fundamentally different from Linux itself, which can be locked in in just such a way. But I don't hear many people complaining about Linux not being sufficiently Free (except for the diehard FSF zealots).

As it is, Android is open. A particular Android phone may or may not be, but you are free to research and choose a handset that does let you do "make install". In fact, it was one of the reasons why I originally bought my Nexus One, even though I've never actually exercised that freedom so far.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[gagol]

It build android from the source. You cannot do that with iOS...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[SiChemist]

No, "SJ" is trying to frame the discussion in a manner that put his company's product in the best light. His exaggerations are designed to improve the marketability of Apple's products. Period.

Oh, and by the way, you can thank the KHTML developers for Webkit.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[LDAPMAN]

Actually, thats one of the things Steve mentions in the article. He quotes Eric Schmidt saying that Android activations are running about 200K per day and then says iPhone activations are running at about 300K per day. He also says thats the only data available on Android sales. So what data are you using to show that Android is outselling iPhone?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[bennomatic]

I agree partially, but it wouldn't be completely open if they exerted their control over what the carriers did with it.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[gagol]

Umm... Yes it is : http://gigaom.com/2010/10/05/nielsen-android-surges-to-no-1-in-recent-sales/. You should provide link to keep some credibility around here.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[vlueboy]

I didn't know either. Google shows the official word, indicating that repo is a customization of the git file repository/version control manager. repo init preps a place in your HD and works across different repositories, aided by details from that manifest file you give it with the -u option.

repo sync does the actual updating of the code [or if needed, the very first download to your repo folder]

make is a unix compilation tool that by default runs scripts called makefiles. Those specify what to compile, in what order, what special options to use, and where to install each output file. Make automates a secuential process that can easily take minutes to hours. However, here make might be a special purpose binary here.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[c]

It would be much more open (in a FSF "free software" sense)... it just means the carriers (and device makers) wouldn't be able to hang off Google marketing coattails.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[skidisk]

In fact, Rubin worked with Tony Fadell (head of iPod/iPhone reporting to Jobs) 1990-1995 on Droid 0.1/iPhone 0.1 in the form of the Personal Communicator at General Magic, along with Andy Hertzfeld, Bill Atkinson, and many others from Apple, most of whom eventually ended up on the iPhone and Droid teams. General Magic was a 1990 spin-out from Apple (code name Pocket Crystal) with John Sculley on the Board (along with Motorola, Sony and eventually AT&T, Matsushita, Philips, NTT, Mitsubishi, NorTel, Oki, Sanyo, and others). The DNA of both the iPhone and Droid contain elements from those initial General Magic products.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[node 3]

Only in the United States, only counts iPhones. Worldwide, iPhone outsells Android, and in the US, iOS outsells Android.

I'm curious, when you read the link you provided, did you honestly not see/register "US" and "iPhone"? Or did you see those things and deliberately decide to lie?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Pieroxy]

But you don't have to root your iPhone to get the AppStore. Or to set Google as the default search engine. Or ... I think you get the point.

Of course, it's harder for people to meddle with a jailbroken iPhone because they don't have the source code. But man, the need to Jailbreak is not the same as the need to get out of a horribly craploaded and crippled version of Android.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[JoeSixpack00]

If Google really wanted to equate Android with "open", they'd stop allowing the use of the Android trademark by manufacturers and carriers who lock down devices that way...

You DO realize that what you're suggesting is the very thing that got a large segment of the OSS community at odds with Firefox right?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[PRMan]

Or did you see those things and deliberately decide to lie?

C'mon, it's not his fault. If he lives in the US, he doesn't know the rest of the world exists.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[owlstead]

And of course, there are a lot of carriers that *do* allow you to install new firmware. I've had no problem with my carrier anyway. And as long as I don't mess up their infrastructure, they'll probably be fine with that.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[unix1]

The tweet is FUD... He missed the most important part.. How do you install this on a Droid or most other
Android devices?

If you are compiling your own operating systems, maybe you should get a developer phone? You can install anything you want on those.

You need to root it just like you do to jailbreak a iPhone.

That's FUD. If your phone is locked down by your carrier or manufacturer, yes you'd need to root it. However, that's where similarities stop - i.e. try compiling your own version of iOS - that's right, you can't, it's NOT open source. That's the difference.

Android devices are far from open.

Most are locked down. Dev phones are not. Most that are locked down are easily rooted.

The big difference, again, is the operating system, not a device. Anyone - i.e. any startup tech company - can take Android source code and start making and selling their own cool devices based on it. That's the advantage of it being open source.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[mfwitten]

Typical elite geek attitude that only people who know how to hack are entitled to the fullest benefits of computing.

Only people who know how to hack are CAPABLE of harnassing the fullest benefits of computing.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[DragonWriter]

It's a short hand for "install the build somewhere". Something which many in the latest crop of Android devices aren't too friendly about. If Google really wanted to equate Android with "open", they'd stop allowing the use of the Android trademark by manufacturers and carriers who lock down devices that way...

And then there'd be no Android phones available to anyone at all, and no Android developers because there was no market to develop for.

Android is freer than that, which is why it succeeds -- vendors are free to make locked-down versions, which gets it adopted widely. The more it is adopted, the more potential market there is for unlocked devices without the restrictions, with without the wide adoption and the ecosystem it enabled, there wouldn't be.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[0xdeadbeef]

I don't think you understand that Android isn't licensed, that Google's actual customers are advertisers, and that Android exists mainly to prevent Apple from establishing a monopoly between advertisers and our eyeballs.

And don't hate on the manufacturers too much, either. They want to sell phones, and they would gladly sell open phones if there was a viable market for it. But the carriers call the shots, and hardly anyone wants an unlocked phone that is still locked-in to the proprietary protocols of one carrier.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[iluvcapra]

I don't want to harp on this at too much length, but I used the word I used for a reason, I said "entitled" and I meant "entitled."

We don't say that people must learn assembly in order to harness the full benefit of computing -- user-friendly programming languages have put an end to this. The greatest contributions made to computing have been made by people who were able to take something strange and particular to computers and put it in common terms, so that anyone could make use of it. Originally, only geeks with punchcards could use computers to write music, but now we have GUIs that allow allow people who know music on their own terms to use a computer to make it. The idea that people are obliged to understand the full stack of computing technology in order to benefit from computing technology is exclusionary and supercilious.

And so here we have an instance where software is open, but in a sense that benefits will never touch end users. Not open like Firefox, not open like OpenOffice. Open like Darwin.

And I'm not saying Android sucks. I'm just saying that its openness provides no real benefit and shouldn't be regarded as a positive selling point.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[DragonWriter]

BSD/ApachBSD/Apache style licenses intend to provide "openness" for developers and hardware makers.

GPL(especially v3) intends to provide openness for the end user.

e style licenses intend to provide "openness" for developers and hardware makers.

Its more accurate to say that BSD/Apache licenses (and public domain dedications like SQLites) provide openness for the people directly receiving and licensing the software from the licensor, while GPL licenses restrict the licensee more narrowly with the intent of compelling them to serve other interests of the licensor in order to benefit from the license.

GPL(especially v3) intends to provide openness for the end user.

GPLv3, almost uniquely among F/OSS licenses, limits the freedom of choice the end-user has in selecting what features they want in products based on what market segment they are in. I'm not quite sure how that amounts to providing openness for the end user.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[DragonWriter]

Typical elite geek attitude that only people who know how to hack are entitled to the fullest benefits of computing.

Entitlement is irrelevant. People's ability (not entitlement) to derive maximum benefit from computers is directly related, as a basic fact, to their understanding of how to use computers.

Apple's limiting the freedom of those most able to do so doesn't actually do anything to increase anyone else's ability to realize the potential of computers. In fact, since those who can't do it on their own rely on those more technical users to enable them to realize the potential benefits, those restrictions actually limit everyone else, too.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly is "make install" supposed to do when building Android..?

Add it to the boot menu of the N900 that you're using to compile Android. Duh! What, your phone doesn't have git, make and gcc on it?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[vlad30]

Only on droid 2, droid 1 you just flash a rom that is already rooted on to the phone.

So 99% of the population has the equipment and knowledge to do this ?? No they will just get the iPhone and use it !!

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[jazzis]

Mod node 3 up. I use all OS's daily and I fail to believe the disconnect here with reality as regards to "open" as regards BSD/NeXT/MacOSX/UNIX and GNU-Linux (Google-Android-Apache).

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[spinkham]

Its more accurate to say that BSD/Apache licenses (and public domain dedications like SQLites) provide openness for the people directly receiving and licensing the software from the licensor, while GPL licenses restrict the licensee more narrowly with the intent of compelling them to serve other interests of the licensor in order to benefit from the license.

In your argument there's more then one licensor and licensee. Which one gets the source, and the power to continue development?

GPL guarantees the sources are available to the end user and they can do with them what they will. BSD guarantees the first middleman developer in a chain gets the sources and can do what they will.

BSD is an almost-no-strings-attached gift. GPL is an invitation to enter into a gifting economy.

Both are useful. Both promote freedom in their own way, with their own view of what freedom should look like.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Daniel Phillips]

Apparently you missed the part that says: "Nielsen is adding its voice to the chorus of research firms confirming the ascension of Android."

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[c]

Yep.

You know what? I live in Canada. At this point, it's a bit of a toss-up who I'd like to see go down harder; the telecom carriers or the Quebec separatists. So if it means Google gets to do some arm twisting and fucks over the carriers... I can live with that. If they can do something about the separatists, too... wow. Just wow.

Besides, let's face it, anyone in the OSS community who isn't aware that Android is Google's baby and would be surprised by such a move...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[mfwitten]

Not open like Firefox, not open like OpenOffice. Open like Darwin.... I'm just saying that its openness provides no real benefit and shouldn't be regarded as a positive selling point.

I may disagree here; from what I understand, Android users ultimately* don't have to wait for some centralized authority to approve an application, and consequently Android users don't have to worry about some centralized authority removing acces to applications.

*Official `App Stores' aren't required; in that sense, Android does provide users with more computing benefits.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[shellbeach]

It may not be a perfect solution, but assuming your ipod Touch is jailbroken you can back up all your apps (and notes, contacts, etc databases) via ssh (or do it automatically with rsync). Don't forget to change the permissions of the folders back to what they should be when you want to restore. Rhythmbox under Ubuntu will transfer music on and off the ipod for you seamlessly and just as easily as iTunes.

It's been half a year since I used iTunes with my iPod touch, and I have no intention of ever using it again (unless it's required for jailbreaking).

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Idiomatick]

Isn't rooting the Android n option in the menus though? Instead of effectively virusing yourself.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[NatasRevol]

It means Apple is a lot more profitable than ANY part, or even the whole, of Android.

Which part will last, which part will drop? HTC? EVO? Motorola?
What happens when Google comes out with Chrome?
What happens if Google drops Android, like it does most of it's projects.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[jazzis]

Too clueless.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Varsis7]

Speaking from personal experience with only a month spent with an Android handset, I can definitely vouch that the Epic 4g is at least "open" for the definition that matters to me; the other day I downloaded the newest Fennec beta from Mozilla over 3g. No app store, just downloading a file and running it from the file browser after checking a high-profile box in the settings menu.

That said, the Fennec build was intolerably slow compared to the built-in Chrome browser that "just works", but the above mentioned experience represents a real amount of freedom your average iOS user doesn't get... if I am given any working Android executable, I can run it. It might not run well because of said "fragmentation", but Jobs isn't putting his hand on my forehead and saying "no", either.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[froggymana]

O rly? This says things a bit differently

If you look at table two it says "Worldwide Smartphone Sales to End Users by Operating System in 2Q10 ". You will notice that iOS says "14.2%" for world share, and Android says "17.2%" for world share. Last I checked 17.2 > 14.2 ... ;)

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[dudpixel]

but you CAN install it on your nexus one (dev phone).

Your comment is implicitly saying that Google should enforce these things onto the manufacturers - but that goes against being open.

Android is as open as it gets, even if the devices it runs on are not (always).

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[node 3]

Apparently you missed the part that says: "Nielsen is adding its voice to the chorus of research firms confirming the ascension of Android."

I fail to see how that equates to "Android sells more than iOS". Care to elucidate?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[node 3]

Kudos for finding some actual numbers. Let's see, 2Q10... Isn't that when iPhone sales slow in anticipation of the new iPhone? And also a quarter that was notorious for many free Android handset sales? Apple just sold over 14 million iPhones this last quarter.

However, if Android has taken, and maintained a lead over iPhone, worldwide, that certainly is news, and if so, I stand corrected on one small point

However, my main point still stands that iOS outsells Android, both within the US and worldwide. My specific part about the iPhone was just a statement of, "Android in total doesn't even outsell just the iPhone, which is a subset of iOS sales".

The fact remains that there are more iOS devices out there than Android devices. There are more iPhones out there than Android phones (although if the numbers hold, it's possible for this to change, but expecting the numbers to hold is not entirely rational either). And no matter what, with the current numbers, there is no likelihood of Android outselling iOS any time soon.

Which is fine. I don't really care if Android outsells iOS or not. My only personal concern is that iOS maintains a healthy market, and there's absolutely zero danger of that changing in the foreseeable future. My only point here is that this notion that Android is outselling iOS is absurd fantasy, and the fact that both the moderators and posters here are so quick to promote this illusion is rather pathetic.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[exomondo]

However, my main point still stands that iOS outsells Android, both within the US and worldwide.

You've consistently said that but have you got something to back that up?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[leiz]

I don't see any fear, uncertainty or doubt in the tweet.

You have the freedom to buy an Android phone of your choice. Buy one that's not locked.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

No they wouldn't. They would be quite simple: "You're running an unsupported firmware. Bye."

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[DavidRawling]

In my experience, syncing to the device should alert you that you have apps on the device to sync to your iTunes install (it does for me [iPhone 3G, iOS 4.1, iTunes 10, Windows]) and let you perform that sync to avoid re-downloading your apps. Not that I have many, as I use WinMo on a device with a real, honest-to-God keyboard by preference ...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Dev phones? Is there more than the Nexus One?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[xannik]

This description is spot on. It's so disappointing how many people really don't understand this.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[node 3]

However, my main point still stands that iOS outsells Android, both within the US and worldwide.

You've consistently said that but have you got something to back that up?

Apple sold over 14 million iPhones last quarter, over 4 million iPads, and an unspecified number of iPod touches. They sold 9 million iPods, but I don't know the breakdown between touches and non-touches. To make round numbers, let's assume 2 million iPod touches (I would expect more than that, but this makes it 20 million iOS devices).

This also coincides with Apple's claim at the iPhone 4 launch that they were on track to sell their 100 millionth iOS device in June, and they hit 120 million last month.

So, the question becomes, how many Android devices were sold during the last quarter? Actual numbers are pretty much impossible to find. Any actual Android numbers are based on assumptions stemming from disparate bits of info. 200k/day is a number Google has bandied about (it's not clear if that number is the daily average for the whole quarter, but for discussion let's assume it is), which is about 18.6 million for the last quarter. If you have different numbers, I'm open to hearing them.

It's quite possible for Android to exceed iOS sales rates sometime in 2011. Even if that happens, it will be a very long time before total Android units exceed iOS sales. But on Slashdot, you see an almost cult-like belief that Android is outselling iOS.

At this particular moment, Android fanboyism on Slashdot is insane. Far more insane than Apple fanboyism has ever been, and that's saying something. I assume this stems from an ostensibly open source project becoming a consumer hit. But the sad reality is that very few of those potentially 18.6 million bought Android because of its Linux kernel, or anything to do with open source whatsoever. Also, it's irrational to assume the trends will remain the same. A Verizon iPhone (which appears to finally be about ready to launch) will have a significant impact.

But only time will tell. What time has told us up to this point is that iOS leads Android so far, both in total sales and current sales rates.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Nick Ives]

You copy your app onto your phone via it's data cable, or maybe by using one of the many apps that let you mount SMB shares, or some other method. You then go into the options on your Android phone and check the "unknown sources" box, which allows you to install apps from non Marketplace sources. You then find said app using a file manager app or somesuch and install it.

No rooting required. You do need to root to get certain functionality apparently, but I have a debranded T-Mobile HTC Desire with loads of apps installed and I've not had to root it.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[icebraining]

It means Apple is a lot more profitable than ANY part, or even the whole, of Android.

So is Google.

Which part will last, which part will drop? HTC? EVO? Motorola?

They have no alternative for Android. Why would they drop it?

What happens when Google comes out with Chrome?

You mean ChromeOS. ChromeOS won't be touch-enabled, nor fit for a small device. It's a netbook OS. It means nothing for the smartphone/tablet market.

What happens if Google drops Android, like it does most of it's projects.

Really? Is that an argument? Since when has Google dropped one of its most profitable and successful projects? Are you trolling?

But even if they did, there are plenty of people invested in Android which could continue it, since it's OPEN.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[marsu_k]

Keep plucking that chicken...

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[wrook]

My biggest problem with this is if I can't get it on my device, it still isn't open enough for me. Some manufacturers go to a great deal of effort to make sure I can't do that. Most (probably all?) include software which isn't open, some of which is required for the operation of the phone.

While I agree that Jobs' comment was intended to be highly misleading, he has a point that it is difficult to purchase a phone that I can actually modify entirely. Even though Android is open source, my options as a consumer of a device is generally limited to what the manufacturer allows me to do (or what some hacker has cracked his way into). This is not unlike the iPhone.

If my manufacturer decides not to release a 3.0 version of Android for their phone (hoping instead to force me to upgrade my hardware to get the next version), I may be stuck. This is actually important to me. I hate to bring software freedom into the conversation, but open source code isn't enough. Being able to modify, upgrade or compile the code is useless if I can't run it (freedom 0).

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[narooze]

Yes. Nexus One is the third developer phone with (slightly modified versions of) HTC Dream and HTC Magic being the first and the second.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Threni]

How can they do that, given the license the source is released under?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[c]

How can they do that, given the license the source is released under?

Which license? The Apache 2.0?

"6. Trademarks. This License does not grant permission to use the trade names, trademarks, service marks, or product names of the Licensor, except as required for reasonable and customary use in describing the origin of the Work and reproducing the content of the NOTICE file."

Or would you be refering to the GPL 2 (i.e. Linux kernel source)? I'd quote from it, but it doesn't even mention trademarks.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[Stellian]

And the distribution and marketing model of Android guarantees the carrier and phone manufacturer the ability to do whatever they please

I like to think of it like the PC revolution all-over again.

The PC ecosystem has thrived not because they 'stole' the GUI and whatnot from Apple, Xerox, etc. The PC survived because it was a fundamental shift from the way computers were sold in the 80': a common HW specification ('go clone an IBM-PC') and an ubiquitous and inexpensive system software (DOS/Windows) allowed the PC manufactures to compete, lower the prices, cut down any cruft and deliver a variety of boxes that met the needs of any and all niches of the market, in a way no single company could ever do.

This is the real openness of the Android: the low market entry barrier for any hardware and software vendor, which must simply stick to a common spec, and have the freedom to inovate and compete. The fact that the reference implementation of the spec, the OS itself, is also open-source is just bonus openness. It means for example that Google can't pull a 'Windows' move on us, the way MS did on the PC market, because Android can be freely forked.

Regarding the open and not-so-open phones, this is strictly for the market to decide. The individual vendor might take the decision that makes most sense to its customer base. For example it might decide to lock down the device for security and reliability issues: it's better to have a solid device the luser can't break by downloading PamelaAndresonsBoobs.exe, then to have an angry customer because his phone is calling by itself to numbers in China. Or it might lock it down as requested by the network that sells it - and you can't expect an OS to fix eveything that's wrong in the tellecom world, just as you can't expect booting Linux on your PC to lower your internet bill.

The key issue is that if you, as a hobbyist, start-up, or established vendor, want to sell an 100% open Android phone which boots into root console, you can do that without anyone's aproval, in a way you will never be able to legally sell an iPhone-compatible. (or even software for the iPhone)

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[NatasRevol]

It means Apple is a lot more profitable than ANY part, or even the whole, of Android.

So is Google.

Google doesn't make hardware.
Apple is a LOT more profitable on the hardware side than ALL of the Android phone makers combined.
Apple is a LOT more profitable on the software side than Google.

Which part will last, which part will drop? HTC? EVO? Motorola?

They have no alternative for Android. Why would they drop it?

What if WP7 is more profitable? You don't think MSFT will have some motivation to make this the case? Even if it's just lower licensing fees than they're starting to charge Android mfgrs.

What happens when Google comes out with Chrome?

You mean ChromeOS. ChromeOS won't be touch-enabled, nor fit for a small device. It's a netbook OS. It means nothing for the smartphone/tablet market.

Gee, you don't think they're trying to add those right now?

What happens if Google drops Android, like it does most of it's projects.

Really? Is that an argument? Since when has Google dropped one of its most profitable and successful projects? Are you trolling?

But even if they did, there are plenty of people invested in Android which could continue it, since it's OPEN.

Really? Show me the source code for development that's happened since Froyo. What if they drop it before Gingerbread, and the open source community has to re-build it for tablet functionality - again.
Also, how much does Google actually make off Android? Or is it just a loss on development & purchase of company?

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[ais523]

The thing that confuses me about that command is that the "repo" command isn't installed on my (stock Ubuntu 10.04) system, nor is it in the repositories. Is it a typo for something? Or some nonstandard command I don't have? (I doubt it would exist on Windows either; if it's Mac-only, it would be somewhat ironic given the topic of conversation...)

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[nine-times]

Your comment is implicitly saying that Google should enforce these things...

No, my comment is more intended to question how much sense it makes to call Android "open", given that in most real-world scenarios, it's on a locked-down device.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[CompMD]

That isn't a deficiency of the Android platform. Complain to the phone manufacturers.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[iluvcapra]

I agree with you completely, but I think this conflict brings into relief the issues behind what a smartphone really is.. If you own an Android phone that can boot into a root console, but you have to pay a significant premium to own it, and no cellular network will allow you to use value-added features, the "open" aspect of the phone has bought you benefited you the individual in no way.

The PC industry is a bit different because at the time the network effects took off, porting was a much higher cost barrier, and software was designed to actually be run on the independent computer and stand-alone productivity applications. In a world where a shop can turn out an iOS, Palm, RIM, and Android app for about the same level of effort, and where all of the apps they turn out are mostly just front-ends to a network service, the sort of product the end users are buying is quite different. The real supplemental product here is access to the network, everything else the phone maker and OS maker provide is complimentary to the network. The Network is the platform, not the OS, so making the OS open source is really of limited benefit.

The problem with open source projects like this is they live in a world where, to paraphrase Huxley, everyone can read the source but nobody wants to, because the source is useless without the platform, the Network being open, and the software actually helps maintain the Network's market incumbents and their rents.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[froggymana]

I would definitely agree with you on that Apple products are here to stay, they will always have a little niche. I'm just saying that Android is getting more and more popular to the point where it is very close to out selling the iPhone. Basically they are head and head right now if I understand correctly, its just that Android is moving up faster.

Re:Creator and Overseer of Android Responds

[eachna]

The original Droid was deliberately released with firmware that didn't require a signed file to update, as was the Cliq. Motorola first locked down the Milestone (the GSM version of the original Droid, sold outside the US). They mentioned (in passing, in very small type) that they would continue to lock down most/all future phones with Android. They didn't "happen to fail". They chose not to lock down the Droid, probably at the request of Verizon.

Tweetdeck's reply?

[mlts]

Didn't Dodsworth from Tweetdeck say that he had only two guys on the Android port, and fragmentation wasn't really an issue?

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Missing.Matter]

Yes

http://twitter.com/iaindodsworth/status/27813709366

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Superken7]

Yes, and Steve Jobs mentioned that as the only example of how fragmentation is an issue for development.
Very funny because the report he referred to was actually a praise to Android.

Big fail there. I would like to know if he said that due to ignorance or if he was just that bad at lying.

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[countSudoku()]

It's merely lying to save face with the moronic investors during a "not-as-good-as-we-thought" quarter. Let's fix those awful quotes and inject some truthiness into them:

"When selling to users who want their devices not to suck, we believe a walled garden will be less confusing than and open one, every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform in our choice of development environment, rather than choose their own. And not piss us off with any of the innovations that go too far and provide free things where AT&T should be profiting from, as the incumbent carrier."

"This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers; users are cheated out of freely available, useful software at the whim of Apple, and devs get to jump through Apple's shitty app acceptance hoops. Everybody* wins!"
* ©Apple and ©AT&T constitute the term "Everybody" in the context of all Apple Official Announcements.

"Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the most boring choices of tip calculators and other safe, mainstream, applications that lack some basic usability found in our other products. Ones that don't need to be shaken and have a real keyboards and mice attached. We once made computers, you know. Now just MP3 players and an MP3 player with a camera and a phone built in. Get excited, gammit!!1!"

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Xest]

He probably meant in in the same way at his last press conference he said the iPod Touch was the largest mobile gaming platform on the planet having sold double the number of mobile gaming devices as Sony and Nintendo put together. Except, there's about 300 million Nintendo DS' and PSPs out there, but only 30 million iPod touches.

Then there was the one about 275,000 iPhone activations per day on average, which would equate to 100 million a year, except even their best iPhone quarter so far they've only shifted 14 million, which if they kept up over a year would be 56 million, but that figure is roughly only the total sales of the combined set of iPhones over the last 3 and a half years.

Sometimes when Steve says things, I'm sure they're right in his little world, but it's best to always look at Steve's comments in that way- I think he gets a bit confused between fantasy and reality. There's no doubt that the iPhone is a resounding success, and the iPod touch is far from being a flop or anything like that, but the things he comes out with, just don't even make sense, and don't hold up to the cold hard numbers that his own company releases in it's quarterly reports. At best the numbers he uses in public conferences are grossly unrepresentative of the reality of the situation, at worst they're just completely and utterly made up.

I'd have a lot more respect for the man if he was content with the success of his products as is because there's no doubt they're succesful, but the fact he has to inflate the numbers to the extreme and enter into fantasy territory sometimes does actually make me question whether the guy is even sane and hasn't just completely lost the plot. Like you say, he's either ignorant of his own companies figures, or just likes to outright lie- or as I say, he's just fucking nuts.

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Americano]

You need to learn to pay attention to the words he used. He said 275,000 iOS activations a day. That includes iPad, iPod Touch, and iPhone.

He also stated that those numbers were by way of comparison with Google's report that they're activating 200k Android devices per day, and that the 275k number was specifically named as "the average over the past 30 days".

Sloppy reading would explain why you think he's claiming something he didn't claim.

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Daniel Phillips]

He said 275,000 iOS activations a day.

I wonder how that would compared to total Linux activations per day, which besides Android phones and tablets would include DSL routers, TV sets and so on?

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Americano]

More importantly, why the fuck would that ever matter?

I'm simply pointing out that Steve Jobs didn't say they were activing "275k iPHONES a day," he specifically said '275k iOS devices' - which includes, but is not limited to, iPhones.

In much the same way, I'm pretty sure that if Google can legitimately claim a device is running "Android," they're including it in their count of "Android devices activated per day."

The market segments are pretty well defined here, why would you suddenly suggest "Let's include DSL routers, Televisions, and that hot new toaster from Stallman Labs!" as a somehow more accurate measure of Android's success as an OS for mobile devices?

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[dudpixel]

Those are facts.

At apple, we dont like to ruin some good old FUD with the facts...

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Daniel Phillips]

You have issues, my friend.

Re:Tweetdeck's reply?

[Americano]

Because I pointed out that you're either trolling, or asking a completely irrelevant question?

Why not throw in Windows 7 activations per day in the comparison, too?

Open? People break both open.

[mveloso]

Jailbreak your iPhone and install what you want.
Re-Rom your Android and install what you want.

What's the difference?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[bigstrat2003]

The difference is that with most Android installations (and indeed, all to my knowledge, but there may be some I haven't heard of), you can install what you want right off the bat. If you don't like the content available on the Android Market, you can check the box to allow you to install non-Market apps. There is absolutely no reason Apple couldn't do this, while still preserve their "user experience".

Re:Open? People break both open.

[SkankinMonkey]

The only problem is, many vendors are making it increasingly hard to replace the ROM on your phone. Motorola has their locked bootloader, the G2 has the auto-unroot 'protection.' If google doesn't release a new dev. device our homebrew options for android will gradually fade away, I fear.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mark72005]

AT&T didn't allow you to do this with their initial android offerings - can't comment on the new ones. It was a walled garden just the same as the Apple experience.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mark72005]

This is the point Jobs is making and actually I agree with it.

A platform is not really "open" if it's only open in a way that 1%ers (1% most technical users) can do anything with it that benefits from openness.

The biggest manufacturers are fragmenting Android by installing their own worthless bloatware, I mean, end-user experience, over the top.

And if the users don't do anything beyond use the phone more or less as-is - customizing the pre-packaged frontend, installing approved apps from the approved app store - is it really open, or just another brand of the same thing iOS is?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Qwavel]

Steve Jobs explanation for why iOS is better reminds me of some of the reasons that the communists thought that their central planned economies were going to crush the inefficient and disorganized Western economies!

But seriously, there are many types of open. Even though the Android phones available from your local carrier have been locked down, making them far from ideal for the open-source purist or the tinkerer, they are still very 'open' in a way that I believe is critical for all consumers: the Android Market.

Though the Android Market needs a lot of work the fact that it is only minimally and consistently censored is very significant. The way that Apple is managing its App Store - killing apps that provide undesirable competition to Apple or its buddies, that criticize the wrong politicians, etc. - will harm the platform, not to mention its users. Not to mention the fact that it is simply insulting to its users.

iPhone users can jail-break their phones at this time, but that ability seems to come and go and is certainly not a feature of iOS, either philosophically or practically.

So 'open' has many different meanings, and while one type of openness is gone by the time Android reaches your phone, others are still there.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[RatherBeAnonymous]

The difference is that Apple tried to make it illegal to jailbreak your iPhone.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ArcherB]

AT&T didn't allow you to do this with their initial android offerings - can't comment on the new ones. It was a walled garden just the same as the Apple experience.

So because AT&T locked down their Android phones, this means that all of Android is suddenly no longer "open"? Strange. AT&T's actions had absolutely no effect on my Evo.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[NegativeK]

Android takes the title of open for a number of reasons, including the fact that it's open source (not the crap manufacturers put on top, but Google's Android,) the market is more open, and the market isn't the only show in town. If Jobs wants to attack specific bad implementations that layer closed crap on top, I'll applaud him -- but you can't generalize that to every phone.

By your 1% definition, even gNewSense wouldn't be open if you put it in front of my grandmother.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Hatta]

A platform is not really "open" if it's only open in a way that 1%ers (1% most technical users) can do anything with it that benefits from openness.

That's nonsense. How many Linux users do you think actually use the source provided? Probably close to 1%. Does that make Linux not open?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mark72005]

My point is, the platform may be "open" if the operating system is open source, but not in a meaningful way if the user doesn't have control over the device.

If manufacturers are locking the device down so you can't sideload apps or re-ROM or do whatever you want to do with it, I don't think that's really open.

They are doing the same thing Apple does - lock a device down so you can only experience it in the way Apple chooses to allow you to. Or HTC, or Motorola.

(I had an Android phone from AT&T where you weren't allowed to change the search tool from Yahoo to anything else, you weren't allowed to install unapproved apps, etc etc.)

Is a platform really open if the user can't do anything with it? Or are we looking at an open source OS in the way we look at fish in an aquarium?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mlts]

The iPhone and Android are two different environments.

My biggest gripe about iOS is that there is not a really good terminal program once it is jailbroken. The Mobile Terminal program available via Cydia bombs out on launch, so one has to either find the right repository, or manually ssh into the phone and fire off dpkg -i for a bare-bones terminal emulator that does somewhat work. On Android, terminal emulators are top notch, especially being able to handle tons of symbols needed for basic UNIX work.

My second biggest gripe about iOS is that it is tied to iTunes. Android doesn't give a rat's ass what it is hooked up to. It is just as happy hanging off a Power Systems 795 as it is a Windows machine or a Mac. If I want to back up an Android device completely, I fire off nandroid and pop an image to the SD card. iTunes is required to activate/update/format iOS devices, and is needed if you want to copy apps, or back up your phone's data.

Hardware-wise, Android phone makers need to find a standard port that can go against Apple's 30 pin connector. The reason why this connector is better than mini or micro USB is because it provides structural integrity, making it easy to use the device in a dock. One of the biggest selling points about iOS devices is that TVs, stereos, clock radios, and even some cars have a docking station with Apple's 30 pin connector ready to go. This standardization of accessories isn't present anywhere else.

Software-wise, Google has done an awesome job with Android and security. My only complaint is that Android needs encryption of data, and the only encryption it does is to protect apps stored on the SD card. Android needs to be able to encrypt Exchange data and data stored on the SD card [1] for it to be taken seriously in the business world.

Of course, the other concern is that there are no developer friendly phones being sold in the US. The N1 is discontinued, and there needs to be a developer phone that has a recent CPU and solid specs for Android 2.3, if not 3.0. As of now, there isn't one, and consumer phones are becoming more and more modder hostile every passing month. Google needs to get an ADP3 and ADP4 phone available for sale soon (one with a hardware keyboard, one without) in order to keep with the times. I would consider paying full price for a GSM based Android phone that has the latest generation of CPUs and other specs and doesn't do signed kernels, eFuses, reinstalls, and other crap. However, there exists no phone that can do this in the Android world as of now.

[1]: This is easy to do -- loopback mount a card using LUKS, and the complete card is protected. An attacker would only be able to get a MBR filesystem table, and that is that. If this isn't the best thing, then go with a file based encryption system like EncFS. This is what Blackberries and Windows Mobile do for external memory card encryption.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[slashkitty]

Not all androids have the app market out of the box... and there are a few versions sold, with upgrades not easy.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mark72005]

But you could if you wanted to. No hardware manufacturer is taking specific steps to frustrate, disable, or lock down your ability to do it.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ALeavitt]

So let me get this straight... The question that you are asking is "Is a platform really open if it is open to everybody and only a small percentage of people take advantage of that openness?"

Is a restaurant really open if only 1% of passersby enter? Is a store open if only 1% of customers make purchases?

Yes. If something is open then it is open, regardless of the percentage of users that take advantage.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[lymond01]

There is absolutely no reason Apple couldn't do this, while still preserve their "user experience".

I do wonder how well the Android apps are doing in terms of stability across the various android "flavors" or simply as quality applications on any flavor. There's no vetting process if you can get apps from anywhere, so I suppose that, as long as they aren't crashing your phone, it's all good.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mark72005]

I'm not arguing that it isn't possible.

But if there's junkware piled on that even moderately advanced users can't remove, and if (like Motorola has done) there are countermeasures in place to keep you from changing the phone from its factory configuration, you still are in a walled garden. And at the end of the day for 99% of users there's no meaningful difference related to the "open" aspect vs. if they had an iPhone or a Palm or Windows mobile.

I'm not basing Android, I wish there was a handset that was truly open. Not just an open source OS, but a real open platform.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[yyxx]

That's an oddity of the American market and American carriers; in much of the rest of the world, people can buy phones and service separately.

And AT&T uses GSM, so you don't have to buy and use their locked down phones. I've been using an unlocked third party phone on AT&T for years, including tethering.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't actually need to re-rom your android phone to install what you want. Very few applications even require you to be rooted and the ones that do aren't banned from the app store. Re-roming enables a user to do a lot more than installing arbitrary apps and it really isn't needed if that's all you want to do.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[suomynonAyletamitlU]

And if the users don't do anything beyond use the phone more or less as-is - customizing the pre-packaged frontend, installing approved apps from the approved app store - is it really open, or just another brand of the same thing iOS is?

When you need (or want) something to be open and it's not, that's bad. When you don't need something to be open, but it is anyway, that's good. I don't know why you consider these equivalent. (Whether there are times you would want it not to be open is an argument for elsewhere)

Replace "Open" by "Within range of a fire department." Some people never use the fire department, but as long as they can be reached, then if they ever need it, it's there. If they're not in range, and they need a fire truck, SOL.

Frankly, I agree that the closing off of handsets is stupid, but if assuages corporate fears, then they'll continue to make that decision. But, all it takes is one device--competently made and on the right network. If there's just one, then the option is still available to you.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[TimMD909]

The problem w/ the Apple-must-approve-everything paradigm is that if you discover a bug in your application, you can't just immediately put out a patch for all your users. You have to go through the lengthy, time-consuming process of getting your small patch reapproved and vetted by the iStalin team. So if there's a very bad bug that compromises a phone, getting the patch out might take way too long.

<sarcasm>Now, that's how it is in theory. Being a software engineer, I've never written a single bug, so obviously this problem is only applicable to a few people, and even then, only the users of your application. I'm sure if there's a fatal bug that prevents your customers from using your application, they'd be very understanding that Apple needs to take a few weeks to check it out first. </sarcasm>

Re:Open? People break both open.

[preflex]

Get an n900 and install whatever you want.
Install build-essential on your n900 and make install whatever you want.
Install android on your n900 and install whatever you want.
Install ubuntu on your n900 and install whatever you want.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[t2t10]

A platform is not really "open" if it's only open in a way that 1%ers (1% most technical users) can do anything with it that benefits from openness.

100% benefit from the openness: there are tons of apps that run on Android that Apple simply wouldn't approve. And people can install apps from outside the market.

The biggest manufacturers are fragmenting Android by installing their own worthless bloatware, I mean, end-user experience, over the top.

Android phones have common core apps and the same user interfaces. Manufacturers install their own home apps and some additional apps, but you don't have to see them or use them if you don't like them.

Android "fragmentation" is a marketing myth fabricated by Apple, nothing more.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[FauxPasIII]

> There's no vetting process if you can get apps from anywhere

That's just it; there _is_ a vetting process, but it's owned by the users instead of by Google. All the apps in the standard Android market have rating scores that are displayed prominently in the search.

If you want a more institutionalized rating process, there are sites you can _choose_ to use who will do the vetting and filtering of wheat from chaff for you. AppBrain seems to be the most prominent one.

That's the point I think everyone is missing; Google's model and Apple's model aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact Google's model is flexible enough to express Apple's model as one option among many.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[t2t10]

The fact that some carriers choose to do something stupid with the platform doesn't make the platform itself closed. If you buy a locked down phone from a restrictive carrier, that's your own fault.

But even the most stupid and restrictive carriers offer access to the Android market, and the market itself is much more open.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[beelsebob]

Right, but the proportion of linux users who have the technical knowhow to look at the source is probably close to 20-30%, while the proportion of android users who (a) know how to look at the source and use it (b) have the technical knowhow to flash their particular brand of deliberately handicaped and closed down phone I'd bet (remembering that tens of millions of these devices have sold), is closer to 0.01%.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[mark72005]

You're making Jobs' point. He's not saying Android is closed, he's saying it's fragmented - that the experience differs widely by phone and carrier.

I was saying, as a corollary, that there doesn't seem to exist any such animal as a totally open Android phone.

The manufacturers have built in a profit layer which is bundled software, ad placement, etc. They don't want people simply wiping the device when they get home and removing that.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Microlith]

What, what?

Where's Abcd1234 to tell you that you're wrong and that lock down is the sole reason for its success?!

Sorry, but he got real, real pissy when I said the exact same thing on another article.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ceoyoyo]

It cuts down on the piracy a whole lot though. A lot of iPhone developers rather like that.

We're talking about Android being open though. Whose app store you use isn't really relevant, despite what Jobs said.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[AshtangiMan]

Where did GP say that all android is no longer open? I can believe that AT&T is going to do everything they can to lock android down (they don't want anyone tethering without paying the extra fee). I am currently an iPhone user, but am dissatisfied and may go back to using "just a phone" while I wait for a better alternative. To me it has little to do with the OS and everything to do with carrier lockouts. I do like rolling my own ringtones, but Apple has not embraced that, and it's a multi step process to turn a song from my own CD library into a ringtone, with no guarantee that a future iTunes update won't figure a way to disallow them.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[DebianDog]

Exactly. The difference between to two is not THAT large. I am a total Apple Fanboi but a Droid user. AT&T service blows here. Anyway... In order to get the full Droid experience. You have you root your phone. Then Verizon does it damnedest to make sure if you load a new ROM it is a pain to find the SBF to restore it factory. Usually there is a few cease and desist letters then it shows up so many places they forget about it. Then, if you are unlucky enough to have the Droid X you get to also deal with eFuse and Verizon doing it's part to make sure only it's content comes across the HDMI port. Sorry, grass ain't that green in Droidland.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Skuld-Chan]

I've installed stuff on my android phone iphone users can only dream about - Flash, nintendo/c64/amiga/sega emulators, 3rd party music sync tools etc.

And its not a rooted phone - its stock out of the box and already on Verizon's wonderful network.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ceoyoyo]

The point is, if you want to actually make use of the "openness" of Android, you need a device to install it on. The only devices that are available don't let you install the OS on them. So while Android the software may be technically open, it doesn't matter because there's no hardware to actually run it on.

Sure you can root your phone (maybe) and install Android on it. You can jailbreak and iPhone and install Android on it too. So that makes the iPhone open, right?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Skuld-Chan]

It is open - you can download Android right now - and spend all day long porting drivers/software to your device. People have done this with iPhone's, desktop PC's and laptops - and it doesn't require any special permission from Google.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[bigstrat2003]

Yeah, but that is what most people mean when they paint Android as being open. Very few people care about the fact that Android is open source, most people care about the fact that it freely allows development.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[dnahelicase]

The difference is that with most Android installations (and indeed, all to my knowledge, but there may be some I haven't heard of), you can install what you want right off the bat. If you don't like the content available on the Android Market, you can check the box to allow you to install non-Market apps. There is absolutely no reason Apple couldn't do this, while still preserve their "user experience".

Having just purchased a Droid 2, I have to call it a tie. The fact that Android is an OS is "open" is irrelevant because there are so many random things put on by manufacturers or service providers. You have to hack both to get them to do what you want. There is a checkbox that lets me install non-market apps on the Droid, but at the same time I cannot for any reason in the world uninstall the Blockbuster bloatware app. WTF?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[bigstrat2003]

Yeah, unfortunately Motorola seems hell bent on fucking up their Android installs. The Droid was (and is) fantastic, my phone has no crapware and no restrictions on what I can do. The later models, not so much.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[AltairDusk]

I've had both, and installing a custom ROM on your Android device can open up far more possibilities and changes than you get with jailbreaking. I would equate jailbreaking more closely with gaining root, that said from the day I took my N1 out of the box I was able to do things that required a jailbreak on iOS without root access.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Tarsir]

The way that Apple is managing its App Store - killing apps that provide undesirable competition to Apple or its buddies, that criticize the wrong politicians, etc.

When did Apple kill an app for criticizing a politician?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[AltairDusk]

Android is still just as open, I think you are confusing things here. In the case you described the problem was not that Android wasn't open but that your hardware was crippled and not fully functional (which was likely done at AT&T's behest). The blame should be laid on the carrier and the hardware manufacturer, not the OS.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[t2t10]

Are you kidding? There are probably 100x as many locked down Linux machines than Linux desktops; many routers, set-top-boxes, (non-Android) phones, photo frames, webcams, and other devices run some form of Linux and you buy them, use them, and throw them out without ever noticing.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ceoyoyo]

Then they're severely misusing the term. By that definition Windows is open too.

You're right, most people don't care whether Android is open source. A lot of people are going to care about whether they can upgrade the OS on their phone though. And in that way, Android looks a lot less "open" than the iPhone.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Tsiangkun]

What are, in your opinion, three applications that I am missing on the iPhone, that really should be there ? I've heard this claim of "tons of apps", but nobody follows it up with "for example, ********, is the best application for ******, but Apple wouldn't let it in the store". I have no idea what I am missing out on.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[blackest_k]

Actually Steve does raise a valid point. I am pretty certain my next phone will be an android phone but which one?
luckily I am free to choose from a number of carriers but one things certain not all android phones are equal or available.

Which ones are worth getting and which should be avoided? I want to be able to update the roms be able to remove carrier bloat and install and possibly develop my own apps. I want a responsive interface and for it to be reliable.

I know most people will be happy if it just works and for them and any iPhone or any Android phone will be fine.
I also don't mind waiting a while till May possibly but I'd like to have a short list of good/excellent android phones.

Thinking about it the fragmentation steve talks about only really matters to people seeking the features Apple is unwilling to offer anyway.
 

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Americano]

Dear Sir,

I like your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

"iStalin"? Really? You're seriously making a straight-faced comparison between a slow app review process on a fucking cell phone with a brutal communist ruler who *killed* (depending on the estimates) between 3 and 20 million people during his time in power?

I'd call you an idiot, but the word isn't grand enough to truly convey how far up your own ass you are.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Necron69]

It is a myth that AT&T Android phones are all locked down. I'm running the Cognition 2.2beta7 Froyo build on my Captivate right now. There are ROMs and communities for a ton of Android phones at http://forum.xda-developers.com/ If you are smart enough to read Slashdot, you can figure out how to root and upgrade your phone ROM.

Necron69

HT to DesignGears, who is making my experimentation with the Cognition builds possible. :)

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Americano]

I can run Android on my x86 desktop PC because it's open source

And how exactly does that help you with uninstalling carrier-loaded crapware, or circumventing bootloader restrictions, or adding your own stuff to the device despite carrier & manufacturer attempts to prevent you from doing just that?

Android is certainly open - but the question is, open to whom? And the answer to that, more and more, seems to be "the carriers, not the consumers." As somebody else pointed out above, Android is mostly Apache/BSD-style licensing, which does nothing to prevent "tivoization" like GPLv3 does - and more and more, that's what you're going to see in the Android ecosystem.

If all Android phones were undifferentiated work-alikes, then the carriers would have to, you know, compete based on the service they provide, rather than on "buy this cool locked down phone and replace it in 6 months so we can renew your lock-in contract!" And frankly, you're a fool if you think that prospect doesn't scare all 4 of the major US carriers shitless - having to compete on providing the best network service, call quality, customer service? Why when it's so much easier to lock the phones to your network, layer them with a bunch of 'value-add' services, and tie the consumer up for 2 years or a huge early termination fee?

Apple's refusal to allow carrier-customization of the device was a step towards loosening that stranglehold. Google has given the carriers a viable competitor that will give them a great deal of leverage when Apple's ATT exclusivity contract terminates - "We'd love to carry your phone, but... see, all these Android phones have our special VZWSTore and VZWApps! Our customers LOVE these things, and the iPhone needs to have them as well! Or maybe you just don't want to partner with us?"

There's definitely a battle brewing, but it's not between Google & Apple. It's between the carriers and the manufacturers, and unfortunately, Google is enabling the carriers' bad practices with Android's 'openness', and it doesn't look like many of the other manufacturers have the stones to say "NO!" to the carriers on this issue.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Anubis IV]

Really? So, when was the last time you were able to actually, I dunno, make some changes to the Android kernel and then install it back on your Evo without first voiding your warranty by jailbreaking it?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[t2t10]

Here are just some off the top of my head:

- Tethering (even on pre-2.2 devices and without rooting)
- replacement keyboards and input methods, including handwriting
- full replacements for built-in apps and dialogs (mail, calendar, camera, image browser, etc.)
- full Google Voice support
- apps that intercept calling (e.g., redirect some/all calls through calling cards or VoIP)
- speech recognition and text-to-speech, fully integrated into the OS
- OS task scheduling and context apps
- file and data sharing between apps, plus end user apps to manage that
- remote phone management
- third party app stores
- synchronization over wifi
- third party music and video stores
- in-device scripting and development
- third party VPN apps
- adult apps

Some iPhone apps try to provide this, but it's pretty much useless. For example, there is a speech recognition app and some handwriting recognition for iPhone, but you can't actually use it to input stuff in other applications.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[DaFallus]

I have a Nexus One on AT&T. Before 2.2 was released I tried to download PDANet but it wasn't showing up in the Android Market. I found out that all I had to do was take out the SIM card and use the phone over my wireless connection at home and then PDANet showed up. Alternatively, I could have just downloaded the .apk file and copied onto my phone via USB. Now I just use the default OS tethering options. Have carriers released other Android phones with a modified OS that doesn't allow you to mount the phone's SD card as a USB drive on your computer?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Pieroxy]

Are you kidding? There are probably 100x as many locked down Linux machines than Linux desktops; many routers, set-top-boxes, (non-Android) phones, photo frames, webcams, and other devices run some form of Linux and you buy them, use them, and throw them out without ever noticing.

But they don't call themselves "open".

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Pieroxy]

Android phones have common core apps and the same user interfaces. Manufacturers install their own home apps and some additional apps, but you don't have to see them or use them if you don't like them.

In what world are you living? I want in !!!

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Pieroxy]

Look, we are talking end users here, not you. I know it's a foreign concept but come on, a little imagination. It's not that hard.

The point Steve Jobs is making is that when Google says "100 000" Android devices, maybe 50% of them share UI, market, etc... When you say 100 000 iPhones, they all share 100% of the same stuff.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ArcherB]

Really? So, when was the last time you were able to actually, I dunno, make some changes to the Android kernel and then install it back on your Evo without first voiding your warranty by jailbreaking it?

It's not Google that would void my warranty. Android is open. It's so open in fact that the people who make the phones and provide them can do as they like, including changing the kernel.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[t2t10]

You get the most flexibility with an Android Dev Phone.

http://developer.android.com/index.html

If you're in the US and buy a carrier-locked/customized phone, you have to read the fine print and experiment; I've never bought one of those.

In most of the rest of the world, you just buy whatever phone you like unlocked and plug in your SIM card. The HTC Desire is a good choice: nice hardware, good updates, actually useful add-on software.

You can also buy any European Android phone and use it in the US, but you lose 3G; you still get EDGE. In a year or two, they're going to be penta-band Android phones, which will give you 3G worldwide and on AT&T and T-Mobile.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[ArcherB]

Really? So, when was the last time you were able to actually, I dunno, make some changes to the Android kernel and then install it back on your Evo without first voiding your warranty by jailbreaking it?

It's not Google that would void my warranty. Android is open. It's so open in fact that the people who make the phones and provide them can do as they like, including changing the kernel.

I should probably add that if I were to design my own phone or buy one directly from Google, then I am free to place whatever kernel I want on it. And since this is a discussion comparing the openness of Apple IOS vs Android, do you think I could design a phone and slap Apple's OS on a phone of my own creation? Do you think I could modify the OS at the code level before doing so?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Anubis IV]

By no means am I suggesting that Apple's iOS is open. That said, I think it's disingenuous of Google to suggest that theirs is. It's only as open as the devices it's shipped on. That the vast majority of them are locked down means that, for all practical purposes, it's not open. But if we're arguing in a vacuum where the OS doesn't need to actually be able to work on real devices in the real world, then sure, I suppose it's open. Not that it matters in the end.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[aztracker1]

Hmm... Tivo anyone?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Qwavel]

Here's one example:
http://www.boingboing.net/2010/04/15/apple-blocks-pulitze.html

Apple's explanation was that the content "ridicules public figures". Yes, I know that this guy's app was allowed after he won his Pulitzer, but what about all of the apps that aren't backed by Pulitzers?

People's phones and tablets are becoming the medium through which they experience the world, so this sort of censorship does matter.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[jimlau]

I think one point in this that people often overlook is that Apple is in a situation of their own making, from the app store submission process to the physical devices. So if they want, they could push out an update to change their situation dramatically. Also they seem to be able to play hardball with carriers to get the features they want to work with their phones.

Android, however, is looking less powerful as a platform because it is only one part of the OS/interface/hardware/carrier system, so they can't stop every Android handset that comes out from having a different UI and features. This is arguably better for the consumer, but I think it's worth realizing that Apple could really change their approach a lot more effectively than their competition.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[YetAnotherBob]

I have a Motorola Droid on Verizon. I have not experienced this bloatware you speak of. Could you be more specific?

I have seen a lot of bloatware on new computers and laptops. The first several hours of the life of a new machine is spent removing unwanted sales applications. I had none of this on my Android. The Verizon rep did install one App not on the default PDA set. He put in an App Killer. All the rest I have loaded from the Google store. One or Two from Verizon's store.Now I have about 2 dozen apps, and use about 6; Some of the rest are for the wife and grand kids.

This makes me wonder if you know what you are talking about.

On the other hand, Google does know where I am. That goes with the map app. I knew it when I installed. Oh well...

Re:Open? People break both open.

[dudpixel]

Install a different app-store on your android phone and install what you want.

download apps directly to your android phone and install them.

develop your own apps for your android phone and install them straight onto your own phone, or distribute them however you like...

THAT is the difference.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[southlander]

Limiting the user's choice to one/more apps stores achieves something decades of anti-virus research has miserably failed to do; provide computing that is largely free from malware. This appeals to lots of non techie users. So perhaps this was part of Apple's thinking in the first place.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[pckl300]

A platform is not really "open" if it's only open in a way that 1%ers (1% most technical users) can do anything with it that benefits from openness.

That's nonsense. How many Linux users do you think actually use the source provided? Probably close to 1%. Does that make Linux not open?

1% of Linux users? So what, like 5 guys?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[daver00]

Android isn't a device, its an operating system, and open source operating system.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Blackajack]

Yeah, maybe 20-30% have the ability to look at the source code. If you want any meaningful understanding, you'll have to drop a zero from your statistics.

Which I strongly suspect you pulled out of your hat :)

Re:Open? People break both open.

[16K Ram Pack]

The key thing here is that you need far less than 1% of people doing anything with the platform (beyond consuming) to make it thrive. Take Wordpress... there used to be an extension to allow you to select a page as the starting point rather than the blog. 1 guy wrote that and it was used by tens of thousands of people. So WP then added it in to the default install.

The alternative model (with closed) is to guess what features customers want, or to do surveys, that sort of thing. But it doesn't work as well, in the same way that managed economies don't work as well as market ones.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[he-sk]

And neither do the cell phone manufacturers and/or carriers. The underlying OS is open just as with custom Linux devices.

Incidentally, I can't believe that American consumers still have to put up with their crappy cell phone carriers, apparently without a good alternative. I've been reading the same complaints on Slashdot over and over. Meanwhile, I can buy an unlocked and non-branded cell phone on every street corner in Europe and can choose between multiple carriers without committing to a 24-month contract. Also, thanks to EU legislation roaming charges have become reasonable. It seems to me that your "Free Market" is failing you once again.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Skuld-Chan]

All Android phones that have a "Google" logo on them use the same exact marketplace. I should know - I've had 3 and all my apps synced perfectly between them.

The UI is just a personal preference. Stop drinking the cool aid ;).

Re:Open? People break both open.

[t2t10]

The US mobile phone market is no more "free" than the European mobile phone market: they are both strongly regulated with high barriers to entry.

The European mobile phone market only opened up a couple of years ago; before that, it was in the same bad shape as the US market. There are signs that the US market is changing as well, with cheap prepaid deals becoming more and more available. Just look around.

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Pieroxy]

All Android phones that have a "Google" logo on them use the same exact marketplace. I should know - I've had 3 and all my apps synced perfectly between them.

The UI is just a personal preference. Stop drinking the cool aid ;).

So? How does that answer any of my points?

Re:Open? People break both open.

[Pieroxy]

When Schmidt claims 200 000 activations a day, and that Android is open in the same speech, do you think he excludes all the handsets that are locked down from his claimed activations per day?

Maybe you are straight in your head, but then he isn't. Or he is dishonest. Hmm, I wonder.

Dear Steve

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone wants what you like, some of us can make our own minds up based on our needs and preferences. Ever heard of slide out keyboards?

Not all bad points

[SkankinMonkey]

For the most part he is wrong. However, multiple markets for android will make things messy. Unfortunately, Google needs to clean up the existing market a lot. Google has a good thing going for it, I just hope they don't let the vendors steamroll them into making android a wildlife preserve. I had a friend come to me last week with their brand new fascinate and beg me to remove Bing from it. Took me about an hour and lots of messy hacks, but it was done and google was added.

Re:Not all bad points

[Monkeedude1212]

The problem isn't with Google though - if you have an open platform it's bound to become fragmented. I've got 3 versions of Python installed on my PC because different Apps need different versions of it. Do I blame Python for this mess? Absolutely not, I blame the developers because of it.

"Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same."

Well exactly, Jobs, the problem is with HTC and Motorola all wanting their own interface to seperate them from the Android experience (meaning, forcing the fragmentation to happen) instead of just going with the latest Android version. If Developers targetted the latest Android, and the cell phone companies went with the latest Android, you'd get the same kind of experience on a droid as the integrated experience on an iPhone, and you'd have the open-ness with it too.

Re:Not all bad points

[SkankinMonkey]

Google has some options to alleviate this though. For one, they could force the vendors to allow users to disable these 3rd party interfaces and leave the bootloader relatively unlocked. These companies shouldn't have to deal with us overclocking and burning out our CPU's and expecting warranty support, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to do it if we choose to. It's a very similar argument to 'owning' your software vs licensing it.

Re:Not all bad points

[NevDull]

Multiple markets being available doesn't mean that multiple markets will survive.

Apple's free to open an Android App Market, with Apple-reviewed apps, and taking a cut for the value they add.
Ultimately, it could become the most popular Android App Market, and a de facto monopoly instead of a de jure one.

That's what open is really about.

Android provides an ecosystem. iDevice provides a homogeneous, crafted population. One evolves by natural selection, the other is a product of intelligent design. Unlike the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Steve will die some day. Then what happens? Android may take longer to "get it right", but just like with biological evolution, rapid uncontrolled iteration will ultimately lead to the fittest solutions.

Motorola, HTC, and Samsung are upping each others' game by competing based upon the value they add with their handset and OS customizations. Sure, right now they're bending over more for the carrier than the end-user, but all it'll take is one viable and open service provider to blow that open.

Just work

[Hatta]

iStuff just works until you want to do something Steve hasn't pre-approved. At which point it just doesn't work.

Re:Just work

[aarenz]

There are two channels on iTV (appleTV), the communist party channel and the channel that says turn back to the party channel!

Re:Just work

[drdrgivemethenews]

Yeah. I paid $400 for my iPhone. Mostly I use it as a phone, a news reader and a GPS. I want it to "just work".

Going on half the time, it doesn't.

Whether this is ATT's fault or Apple's I don't know, but it sure does seem like Steve has a good bit more of that great integration work of his left to do, I mean, I get the value to Apple of preemptive dissing on the competition, but I'd still like to hear what Apple's plan is to make my iPhone "just work."

Re:Just work

[Altus]

I'm guessing it has a lot to do with where you live and AT&T. I understand why apple ended up in this agreement with AT&T since at the time, Verizon was willing to completely fuck up any phone it could get its hands on. But I think at this point it is hurting Apple a lot more than helping.

Where I am at, the only difference I have noticed (moving from verizon to AT&T) is that I can no longer get reception in the underground garage at my work, but then I live in an area where AT&T has pretty good coverage. In other parts of the country it clearly does not.

Of course, without the deal Apple had with AT&T the iPhone might never have become the success that it is now.

Re:Just work

[Abcd1234]

iStuff just works until you want to do something Steve hasn't pre-approved.

And weirdly, for a lot of people (evidentally millions and millions of people)... that's good enough. *shrug*

Re:Just work

[Pieroxy]

I live in France, not in the US, and I've always had a hard time figuring out why american people say it doesn't work well. On all three french carriers, iPhones work well and as advertised. I believe it's true all over europe.

Must be AT&T.

Re:Just work

[dudpixel]

iStuff just works until you want to do something Steve hasn't pre-approved. At which point it just doesn't work.

Its not just that it doesn't work. The problem is much worse than that. The iStuff device claims that it has no flaws and that YOU are the problem, not it.

Sooner or later, to Apple or not to Apple becomes a moral choice. (there's that word 'choice' again).

Re:Just work

[khchung]

I have an iPhone and do everything you listed, and it works just fine, including making this post.

The only difference is I am not on AT&T network. That should tell you where the problem is.

"Integrated" sounds better

[chemicaldave]

"When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants."

Integrated vs fragmented. He's just trying to redefine the terms in his favor.

Open > Closed

vs

Integrated > Fragmented

Well done Steve.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[Richard_at_work]

He's not redefining anything - he's actually using a different argument. There is more than one argument in the world...

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[maxwell demon]

Actually it's quite easy to fragment an iPhone. You just have to throw it against the wall really hard. :-)

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[chemicaldave]

I suppose you're right. It's just irritating that he brushes the "open vs closed" argument aside. There are important principles in computing other than the "user experience"!

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[revlayle]

Tell that to the world of consumerism, who doesn't care about principles and just wants it to work... consistently, everytime

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[Tharsman]

Integrated vs fragmented. He's just trying to redefine the terms in his favor.

Open > Closed

vs

Integrated > Fragmented

Well done Steve.

It all depends on who is buying, as he said: "When selling to users who want their devices to just work"

If you are a grandma that just got such a device, you will be on the "users who want their devices just to work" category. If you read slashdot, you are likely not in that category and instead in the "i want to tweak this thing to no end" category, in that case, obviously iOS devices are not for you.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[tophermeyer]

Yeah, but to be fair one of his points was that the current terms were created by what he views as the open source community. The terms were already defined to put his product in a bad light. Of course he is trying to redefine terms in the debate, the current terms are unfair.

His main point, about Android not in fact being an open community, was really spot on. Android might be "open" as in FOSS, but most of the community is definitely not able to take advantage of Android's openness.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[nine-times]

If you don't like what they're saying about you, change the conversation.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[E IS mC(Square)]

Yep, and also wants to make calls, consistently, everytime.

Sucking Steve's dick much?

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[kaiser423]

Yea they are. Many of the ROM creators and other coders have submitted patches to Google that got accepted and are in the distribution for everyone. I think that the highest profile of this was Cyanogenmod and his scheduler.

So, yea, the whole community is benefiting from it being open.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[bennomatic]

Well, yes and no. I think that, from a market perspective, Jobs honestly feels that the iPhone model has a much wider potential audience, and that this is why he thinks the iPhone will stand on its own against Android in the coming quarters.

The question is, does Android's fragmentation affect end users, directly or indirectly (e.g. because of purported development burdens) more than, less than, or similarly to iOS's walled garden approach? Jobs' gamble is that the walled garden approach makes the iPhone and related devices more accessible by the great majority of consumers.

To me, it really doesn't matter. There's room enough for both approaches. The only thing I know for certain is that my Blackberry sucks, and I want to replace it with something much, much better as soon as I can.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[ArsonSmith]

Damn those consumers demanding useful stuff. And those evil capitalists that provide useful stuff.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[ArsonSmith]

Interesting that I read Slashdot and just wanted something that would just work. I was actually a little bit afraid to take the plunge due to the way everyone here talks but it was my non-technical wife that said she wanted a droid x, so I got two figuring I'd have to work through all the issues and help her out on things. Turns out everything "just worked" she hasn't asked me to do anything for it yet. I thought Apple had a trade mark on "just working."

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[dudpixel]

its called 'shifting the goalposts'. you know, the same thing he was accusing google of.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[mr_gorkajuice]

So iOS is definitely a bad choice for users who want to tweak.
However, despite allowing users to tweak, Android is not a bad choice for people who just want the device to work.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[rjstanford]

I suppose you're right. It's just irritating that he brushes the "open vs closed" argument aside. There are important principles in computing other than the "user experience"!

Ah, but Steve would say that there aren't, at least not to a really massive part of the market. And in many respects he'd be right.

The iPhone has level 4 shiny that - somehow - manages to "just work" the vast majority of the time. Android devices that I've used recently are more like level 5 shiny in most areas, with a few apparently random bits of total fail and an almost complete lack of polish (scrolling consistency, keyboard operations, et cetera).

All the things most people never ever notice on the iPhone that become slight irritants on a Droid make the difference - and to many people, those irritants are (over time at least) more annoying than the lack of a major product feature.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[rjstanford]

If you are a grandma that just got such a device, you will be on the "users who want their devices just to work" category. If you read slashdot, you are likely not in that category and instead in the "i want to tweak this thing to no end" category, in that case, obviously iOS devices are not for you.

Alternately, if you've got a couple decades of development experience under your belt, you may read /. and yet not want to have to worry about hacking on your phone/laptop/whatever because you've got more than enough of that kind of mess to deal with during the work week :)

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[Tharsman]

So iOS is definitely a bad choice for users who want to tweak. However, despite allowing users to tweak, Android is not a bad choice for people who just want the device to work.

The "just works" category tends to be heavily aimed at downloaded apps. I don't know what is the difference, but my older brother has an HTC Incredible, and the younger an Evo. Both tend to often find software that run in one but not the other. That is what I mean by "just works", Apple's closed system does it's best to make sure apps run in their OS. Only gotcha is they don't tend to go through all approved apps after updates, and some of these updates may occasionally break an old app.

As far as tweaking, though, out of the box the Android allows much more tweaking, but it's not like the iOS can't be hacked into allowing a very similar level of openness (as long as you don't want to make your own branch of the OS itself)

There is a lot of tweaking you can do on an iOS if you jailbreak, I personally prefer not to since most of the "open" stuff in Cydia tends to be buggy like hell.

Re:"Integrated" sounds better

[Tharsman]

Agreed, I myself fall in that group. I just think it's a minority group.

Sounds like somebody's feathers got ruffled

[Scragglykat]

So, let me get this straight, the situation is not that Android lets you customize your phone experience, and the iPhone does not, the situation is that we need people to stop buying Android phones and buy more of ours!

Stevie Likes Control

[MarkvW]

Jobs likes to make his profits through tight control over software applications. Other people go other directions.

Apple's eternal struggle for control (and its markup) turn me off.

Good problems to have...

[rotide]

Honestly, most of the "problems" with Android I actually consider to be strengths. Now the "fragmented" argument, yes, I can see where that can hurt in the long run, but then again, PC's are quite fragmented yet which has a larger hold after all these years, Apple or PC?

Re:Good problems to have...

[Tharsman]

PCs are, for the most part, just hardware fragmented. The OS of the standard PC tends to be a fairly standardized version of Windows.

Android platform is seeing a much faster and much heavier fragmentation than the Windows Desktop has ever seen. If it keeps going this way much further, in 2 years people may as well forget about making Android Software and focus on making "HTC Incredible" software or "Evo" software, etc etc.

Re:Good problems to have...

[ceoyoyo]

Android only has one problem - Google doesn't make a phone.

If Google actually made and sold a reasonably competitive phone then they could point to it and say "hey, here's the hardware that runs the software. You can do whatever you want with it." That's open.

What they really have is some software that is technically open, but there's no hardware to run it on. Which makes Android phones about as open as a router that runs Linux and distributes the code but doesn't give you any way to install your changes.

Re:Good problems to have...

[dnahelicase]

Honestly, most of the "problems" with Android I actually consider to be strengths. Now the "fragmented" argument, yes, I can see where that can hurt in the long run, but then again, PC's are quite fragmented yet which has a larger hold after all these years, Apple or PC?

I know some people might, and I'm not an Apple devotee by any means, but I greatly prefer the iPhone. I mean, I seriously find it much easier to use. It is certainly more intuitive. The fragmentation issue has been a problem for me since people started installing apps on their blackberry. All of a sudden there are different versions to install for different OS versions.

At the end of the day, my people are more productive with iPhones and I have to spend less time supporting them than I do the Android phones.

Most of the "problems" I see with Android I actually consider quite annoying. Steve Jobs has a good point. Android might be "open" in an ideal sense, but it is "closed" in a practical sense. It's mostly a marketing ploy. Pragmatically the iPhone is open enough to be usable for anything a non-rooted iPhone/Android phone user would want.

Re:Good problems to have...

[SiChemist]

What apps in the android market depend on HTC sense or Motorola Blur? I can tell you that the answer is approximately zero. There may be different UI overlays on those phones, but even those are user-replaceable (without rooting!) to a certain extent. The fragmentation argument is bullshit that Apple hypes because the open vs closed argument is already lost.

Re:Good problems to have...

[Americano]

The thing you're overlooking is that there is one operating system that binds together all of those 'fragmented' hardware components from multiple manufacturers: Windows, with a consistent user interface.

What we're seeing in the Android space is much more akin to the Linux desktop model: it's all "linux" but it looks and feels different from device to device, because manufacturers insist on rolling their own interfaces (KDE, Gnome, et. al.), and multiple interfaces in the mind of a consumer = "totally different thing." They don't care that it's a Linux kernel, they only know that "the buttons look different."

Re:Good problems to have...

[DragonWriter]

Android only has one problem - Google doesn't make a phone.

Google isn't, and doesn't want to be, a consumer electronics company. Google is an online information services company. They make money buy monetizing online services (either via advertising, or by selling cloud hosting directly, etc.)

They make browsers, and operating systems for consumer devices, etc., simply to create market conditions which support their online services (in part, they do so to promote features in consumer systems that are needed to best use their services, and in part they do it to stop some other firm from monopolizing these markets and using control of the consumer experience to favor services that compete with Google's.)

So far, Android and Chrome have been doing pretty good at doing what Google wants them to do, in that regard.

Re:Good problems to have...

[ceoyoyo]

Yeah, Google tried making a phone and it didn't work out so they went back to supplying software. Bully for Google.

An open operating system isn't open at all if there's nothing to run it on. So the "openness" of Android is just a marketing slogan.

Re:Good problems to have...

[rhodges]

...PC's are quite fragmented yet which has a larger hold after all these years, Apple or PC?

Er yes, Windows PCs also have viruses and a bunch of bloatware as well. Do you want to spend a bunch of time managing your devices or actually using them?

Re:Good problems to have...

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Which is still steadily growing in market share? Which had the advantage of a monopoly, allowing them to get away with the problem of fragmentation?

Re:Good problems to have...

[DragonWriter]

Yeah, Google tried making a phone and it didn't work out

No, they didn't.

Google sold their own branded phone, made by HTC, to the public as part of the effort to promote Android.

Promoting Android seems to have been a runaway success, rendering sales of the Google-branded phone to the public no longer necessary.

An open operating system isn't open at all if there's nothing to run it on.

The Nexus One, unlocked, is still available for sale to registered Android developers as the Nexus One Developer Phone.

So the "openness" of Android is just a marketing slogan.

Android is available under an open source license. The tools to build your own system images exist. The hardware on which you can install those system images exists for sale.

And the main project accepts code contributions back from the community of developers that are building and running their own system images.

All the factors necessary for openness to be a meaningful benefit both to those who do want to run custom Android builds and those who want a supported build are in place.

Re:Good problems to have...

[ceoyoyo]

Google sold their own branded phone, made by HTC, to the public as part of the effort to promote Android.

I hate to tell you, but Apple doesn't actually machine the parts and assemble their phones either. Google made a phone in all the important ways - they controlled what it was and what it did - they made it open.

The Nexus One, unlocked, is still available for sale to registered Android developers as the Nexus One Developer Phone.

As a registered iPhone developer you can install anything you want on your iPhone, so it's just the same as Android that way, right? Just because a development device is available to developers doesn't mean there's open hardware that will run the open OS in any meaningful sense.

Yes, Android is an open, and open source operating system, that currently doesn't have any hardware, except for a development platform, to run on. So no, all the factors necessary for openness are not in place. There's a big one missing.

Re:Good problems to have...

[DragonWriter]

As a registered iPhone developer you can install anything you want on your iPhone, so it's just the same as Android that way, right?

Not at all.

Because iOS isn't open source, and so you can't legally modify it and install it on any device even if you are a registered iPhone developer.

Android is open source. You can legally modify it and install it on any device you want (per the Android license.) You can, in fact, buy hardware that will allow you to install Android on it (including, but not limited to, the unlocked Nexus One Dev Phone.)

Just because a development device is available to developers doesn't mean there's open hardware that will run the open OS in any meaningful sense.

Nice attempt to move the goalposts. But, in fact, there is hardware with unlocked bootloaders on which you can run modified versions of the OS, and it is available for sale. Yes, its easier to find locked down devices. So what?

Yes, Android is an open, and open source operating system, that currently doesn't have any hardware, except for a development platform, to run on.

There is plenty of hardware that Android runs on. There is limited hardware that is sold with an unlocked bootloader that will allow non-standard versions to run. The only thing that makes the Android Dev. Phone 3 a "development platform" is the unlocked bootloader, so your "nothing except a development platform" argument, even if true, would be meaningless.

And its not true: there are other unlocked devices available. Few, if any, are sold that way, and all of them are out of warranty if the bootloader is unlocked, and you aren't getting a carrier subsidy for anything with an unlocked bootloader, but that doesn't mean they aren't available.

Sure, its easier to find devices that have locked bootloaders. And, you know what, most people don't want to run non-standard OS spins, they want supported ones. The benefit for most people of the OS being open is that:
1) They have a choice of different spins from different manufacturers and can choose the one that best fits their preferences,
2) Official upgrades benefit from community work.

Having a dev phone that supports custom versions of the OS, an open source license, and accepting community contributions acheives that.

No need so many stuff...

[hilldog]

In Mother Russia we only need one phone and one app store and one line to bread store. Too much stuff confuse us. Yeah right Steve.

Re:No need so many stuff...

[mark72005]

In Soviet Russia, confuse stuff YOU!

Re:That's fine

[grub]

I refuse to use Android or iOS.

I didn't think either was an option on your Bakelite rotary dial phone.

No, they don't.

[schon]

What's the difference?

I can see the source code for Android

Which (incidentally) is why it's open, and apple's offering isn't.

Re:No, they don't.

[mark72005]

Maybe it's "open" in a way, but with Motorola, HTC, Samsung, etc. locking things down at a different layer, is there any functional difference for the average end user?

Re:No, they don't.

[grub]

I can see the source code for Android

I'm a big FOSS fan (typing this on an Ubuntu box) but the whole "I can see the source" thing rings hollow for me.

Every day people use things they don't have the source to. From the firmware in the alarm clock that wakes them up to the BIOS in their computers to the code running the microwave oven. The TV cable box firmware (heck, the TV itself!), alarm system firmware, automobile computer firmware, etc.

Yeah, it's nice to have the code, but I don't base decisions solely on that. If I did, the house would be pretty empty.

Re:No, they don't.

[Threni]

Yes, they can choose which Android device they want, from £80 pay as you go phones through £400 HTC Desire-style high end smart phones, and tablets.

Re:No, they don't.

[hawguy]

The point isn't that you personally can see the source code (unless you're a developer), but that others can see it and extend and enhance the product.

Most people don't value open-source in home appliances, but If you had an open source (and flashable) alarm clock, and if you hate that the snooze is always a constant 9 minutes, it's likely that someone else thought the same thing and released a patch to lat you set the snooze to whatever you want.

Likewise, if you have an android phone and hate that it doesn't support your VPN at work, you can bet that someone else had the same problem and ported a Cisco compatible VPN client to it.

Re:No, they don't.

[maxwell demon]

Well, did you ever wonder why geeks tend to have no girl friends? Well, at the first date, they always ask for her source code.

Re:No, they don't.

[Tharsman]

What's the difference?

I can see the source code for Android

Which (incidentally) is why it's open, and apple's offering isn't.

That makes the base OS open source. The device itself, is as open as the carrier will allow it to be.

Re:No, they don't.

[grub]

Well, at the first date, they always ask for her source code.

If you want her DNA that badly, you'll carry chloroform and a rag!

Re:No, they don't.

[mark72005]

Point granted - you have choice between manufacturers so there is some ability for end user control of the Android experience there.

But if all manufacturers are doing this, then you're still being limited by what's good for the company's share price rather than what you want to do with the device you've already paid for.

Re:No, they don't.

[Macrat]

Maybe it's "open" in a way, but with Motorola, HTC, Samsung, etc. locking things down at a different layer, is there any functional difference for the average end user?

I guess you have never tried out those phones side by side.

They are VERY different

Re:No, they don't.

[Americano]

it's likely that someone else thought the same thing and released a patch to lat you set the snooze to whatever you want.

And it's even more likely that 99% of consumers won't bother if it involves downloading the patch, building your own version of AlarmClockOS, and installing it.

Most consumers simply don't care, don't have the inclination, or don't have the time to dick around with operating-system-level tinkering with every device they own. It's entirely more likely that they will simply learn to work around the inconvenience, or buy a device that does what they want out of the box.

Likewise, most people aren't interested in VPN access to work from a phone handset - and this is, in a nutshell, the essence of the difference between "geeks" and "regular users."

Re:No, they don't.

[selven]

I don't care about "I can see the source", but I do care about "I know that it's not working against me". Only open source can bring that kind of reassurance. Alarm clocks and microwaves are simple and dumb, so having no source for them can be forgiven in the same way as selling apples without a nutritional label can be forgiven. Alarm clocks also have no power over me - if mine got possessed by the devil, I might wake up an hour later than usual, but there's nothing that bad that they can do. However, my computer has all of my personal data on it, and a cellphone can record all of your calls and has a list of all your friends and their contact information. Thus, open source is much more necessary for more complex and more critical electronics because I need to be able to trust them.

Re:No, they don't.

[Cederic]

The devices are available direct from the manufacturers. There is no need to acquire the restricted configuration from a carrier (other than price, and you can negotiate some pretty respectable deals if you're not asking for a $600 handset with the service).

Re:No, they don't.

[GreyWolf3000]

Based on my experiences with Open Source developers, I would not expect to find any firmware patches out there for an alarm clock (of all things).

Re:No, they don't.

[aiht]

If you had an open source (and flashable) alarm clock, and if you hate that the snooze is always a constant 9 minutes, it's likely that someone else thought the same thing and released a patch to let you set the snooze to whatever you want.

(I know this was just a minor analogy, but I've just been pondering the boundaries of when software freedom matters...)

I think part of the reason that nobody cares about whether their alarm clocks run free software (even Richard Stallman*) is that there are always plenty of other alarm clocks, and if you don't like yours you can get another one with the configurable snooze.
There is no possibility for vendor lock-in, no training required, no data conversion - it's trivially easy to just grab the new clock (or microwave, etc) and use it, so there's a free market with competition.

Contrast that with computer software - once you're using a particular proprietary program, there is no free market surrounding that particular program. There can be free market competition between that program and other similar ones, but the individual competing programs are not interchangeable so you cannot hop between the separate walled gardens.
A free program opens up a free market around that specific program, so even without abandoning the program, you can still take advantage of competition - just like what's happening with the android ecosystem right now.

</ramble>

* I went to see Stallman give a talk last night, he said something along those lines in response to an audience question.

What's Open mean anyways

[netrage_is_bad]

Apparently Jobs is trying to redefine "Open"

Sensationalize much?

[cpuh0g]

Wow, what an overheated headline. Jobs did not "lash out". He gave very reasoned response and delineated the significant differences in the philosophy and design of the 2 platforms. It wasnt an angry rant by any means.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[mark72005]

Yes - these are two different market niches. It's hardly a "lashout"

Re:Sensationalize much?

[argmanah]

Wow, what an overheated headline. Jobs did not "lash out". He gave very reasoned response and delineated the significant differences in the philosophy and design of the 2 platforms. It wasnt an angry rant by any means.

You must own an iPhone :).

But seriously, the idea that "integrated" gives the app developer the ability to be more innovative is simply not true when the reality is Apple is the gatekeeper and any app they don't like they just remove from their "integrated" marketplace. His response was not reasoned, it was a marketing ploy. A "reasoned response" would be "We at Apple feel like the users get a better experience when we have full control over what you can and can't do with a device. Since most people are idiots, the average user is happier when we make decisions for them. True freedom results in a worse experience, so we don't believe in freedom." At least that would be intellectually honest.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[MouseR]

FYI,

You are addressing the wrong crowd to debate this in any meaningful and constructive way.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[lymond01]

Sometime in the late 80s I was watching the news and they kept using the term "fiery car crash" versus "traffic accident" in one news story. It literally went like this:

"This just in, a fiery car crash on I-95 has stopped traffic in both directions for miles. The cause of the fiery car crash is as yet unknown. Tom is live at the scene. Tom, what can you tell us about the fiery car crash?"

So it's fine that they're letting us know that it's "fiery" and all, but that was my first taste of true news sensationalism taking to an idiotic degree. It's continued ever since. And don't lash out at me to tell me it's always been like this. Even if you're just explaining your experience. ;-)

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Rockoon]

A "reasoned response" would be "We at Apple feel like the users get a better experience when we have full control over what you can and can't do with a device. Since most people are idiots, the average user is happier when we make decisions for them. True freedom results in a worse experience, so we don't believe in freedom." At least that would be intellectually honest.

Thats a reasoned response, but certainly not an intellectually honest one.

Apple is playing gatekeeper because Apple is protecting its other interests. You paid half a grand for that iPhone, but thats not enough. They also want to nickel and dime you on the content you consume. Sure, there are some free apps, and some free music, and some free videos.. but you are still in their store getting it.

Re:Sensationalize much?

[Pieroxy]

Or rather "As you probably aren't capable of doing a good job at being a sysadmin, we're going to try to mash it up for you. There, 5 good years of a CS degree saved up for you. BTW, when you'll have your CS degree, you can buy Android."

Re:Sensationalize much?

[rjstanford]

Sure, there are some free apps, and some free music, and some free videos.. but you are still in their store getting it.

Yup. Which is why everyone hates on the apt repositories as well... oh, wait, no, they don't, do they?

And yes, people could theoretically add their own repositories into the mix, but the vast majority of users don't, and I'd suggest that a majority of the non-sysadmin ones who do screw their systems up in imaginative ways.

Re:headline FAIL

[Scragglykat]

I believe the problem is that he's listing off all the flaws he sees (some of which are considered features by the Android community) in the Android deployment, but he fails to see any failures in his own platform because he does acknowledge them as value added features.

Steve Jobs: Informercial Presenter

[eepok]

Tired all of those choices that TWO things can offer? Confused by those floaty things that enter your vision and then move away when you try to focus on them? Scared by things that don't outright hug you?

Then you should buy Apple!

Apple... for when thinking takes too much thought.

Re:Steve Jobs: Informercial Presenter

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Apple... for when you have better thoughts to think about.

This all seems very familiar....

[ErikZ]

Isn't this the same "Cathedral vs. the Bazaar" argument?

Re:This all seems very familiar....

[blair1q]

In this case it's the Macher vs. the Fixer. Whatever happens, they're just figuring out how to divide the value of our efforts.

Re:This all seems very familiar....

[gstoddart]

Isn't this the same "Cathedral vs. the Bazaar" argument?

Close. Except in this case, you put the Bazaar in the lobby of the Cathedral and get the Apple store -- lots of people are still free to make free stuff and put it in the Bazaar. But, someone keeps tabs on the kids running through the aisles with sharp sticks and tries to impose some order. :-P

And, bad metaphors aside, a lot of the stories I've been seeing on Slashdot seem to indicate that either carriers (Verizon?) or phone manufacturers (Motorola?) have been adding changes which are incompatible with newer versions, lock out functionality, or lock you into something.

Not owning an Android (or any smart phone), it's hard not to look at the whole thing like Linux in the late 90's. There's a million distros, some of them are compatible, some not. If you're lucky the software/OS runs on the hardware you have, but if not, you're in for some fun.

That and the fact that you get the exceedingly vocal minority (hard core tech users who want to port scheme to their phone) whining really loud about how their phone is more free than Apple's because ... well, because they can port scheme and compile a new window manager. I'm all for your freedom to choose, I just don't think the vast majority of users will even care about the "open-ness" of Android. In fact, for most consumers, it's probably either a net-zero, or even a detriment.

Re:This all seems very familiar....

[Archwyrm]

I think that people are missing the point in that the advantage of openness appeals mainly to developers, not end users. The overhead of coming up with something innovative is reduced when developers have something like Linux or Android and thus the users ultimately benefit from new and interesting available products. Android's own origin owes to this process, and then there are things like Amazon's Kindle, Barnes & Noble's Nook (which runs Android even), a ton of other embedded devices, and more appearing all the time. So, developers get a pretty big leg up, but pretty much everyone wins in the end.

Choice is good for consumers

[slapout]

iOS does things one way, Android does things another way. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. Some like Coca-cola. Some like Pepsi. Just pick the one you want.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[SkankinMonkey]

Yea, people fail to recognize that they're both great systems.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[grub]

Yea, people fail to recognize that they're both great systems.

Interesting observation. Read stuff from a bunch of iPhone fans and it pretty much uniformly toots Apple's horn. Read from stuff from the Android fans and you'll see they're much more likely to be bashing Apple rather than raving about the good stuff within Android.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[blair1q]

People have reasons for liking things. If things fit into your reasons, that's the one you like. Many people have something called "openness of the operating system" as one of their reasons. Some of them have that as their determinant (their only reason). If one or the other of these gentlemen is lying about how "open" their operating systems are, then he will cause some people to make a decision in an unreasonable way.

Quite aside from the fact that there are laws against making people make unreasonable decisions (that are all but never enforced in cases of mass consumer fraud such as this), there is still value in exposing the lies of your competitor. And, apparently, in lying about him.

In other words, some people may not know what they want, and some people may be susceptible to having their minds changed. And regardless of what I said about fraud, sometimes it's perfectly legal, ethical, and neighborly to help them do that.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[SkankinMonkey]

I love my Droid and haven't found a phone that I would upgrade to yet. However, if the next generation of android phones have locked bootloaders and terrible custom-ui's I see no difference between iOS and Android, even if the source is released. Source means nothing if you can't actually use it.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[david_thornley]

Competition is good, also. I have an iPhone. The better Android phones get, the better iPhones have to get, and if they don't I'll have some really good choices if I decide to leave iPhone.

Similarly, Android enthusiasts should be happy as the iPhone gets better.

I don't want to see one dominate the market. That way lies things like Vista and IE 6.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[Facegarden]

iOS does things one way, Android does things another way. Some people prefer one, some people prefer the other. Some like Coca-cola. Some like Pepsi. Just pick the one you want.

Wait, let me sensationalize that for you:

Some people like Android, Some people like iOS. Just like some people like Coca-Cola, and some people like being ravaged by a pack of rabid wildebeests.
-Taylor

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[geekoid]

Choice needs to be tempered with actual information. Otherwise it's a magicians choice.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[Mephistophocles]

Or, like me, they're actually bashing AT&T's ass-awful network. I love iOS, but refuse to deal with AT&T's dead zones.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[Skuld-Chan]

You are missing the point - choice is bad for apple.

The future isn't good for their sales if things keep going the way they are right now.

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

Whenever I'm giving an Android a spin, as an Apple fanboy, I never EVER think, "GOD I wish I was on my iPhone." It's always, "jesus thank god we got away from Windows Mobile."

Re:Choice is good for consumers

[nsteinme]

That's why everyone should throw that shit away and drink water = Linux! It's better for you and it's free!!!

Re:headline FAIL

[ojak]

Where, exactly, is the "lashing out"? He's criticizing, not throwing chairs here.

Both approaches have pro's and con's... why is that so tough for people to be ok with?

"just work"?

[CAIMLAS]

Saying the iPhone "just works" is a bit disingenius due to the... lack of actual work applications.

Granted, the same can be said for Android. But consider: "working" on Windows Mobile 6.5 is somewhat more possible than on either Android or iPhone due to good PIM and Office integration, as well as the many other tools which can interface with, and utilize, said functionality. FOr being as fragmented and crusty as WinMo is, it's still more capable than either.

If 'just working' for you is having a unified UI across multiple 'personal' devices slated for different roles so you can check Facebook statuses and your gmail/iCal/whatever and play games, sure. the iPhone 'just works' by those requirements. Just don't expect anything 'complex' (such as anything a common PDA was capable of as recent as uh almost 10 years ago).

Now, the Palm Pre... there's a phone that "just works".

Re:"just work"?

[gstoddart]

Saying the iPhone "just works" is a bit disingenius due to the... lack of actual work applications. ... snip ...

If 'just working' for you is having a unified UI across multiple 'personal' devices slated for different roles so you can check Facebook statuses and your gmail/iCal/whatever and play games, sure. the iPhone 'just works' by those requirements. Just don't expect anything 'complex' (such as anything a common PDA was capable of as recent as uh almost 10 years ago).

And, now, be honest ... what percentage of the actual total market for cell phones/smart phones wants to do anything more than that "just works" threshold you deride?

I would say that less than 50% (as a starting point) of people need to sync with their Outlook calendars, view MS Project, or view a spreadsheet. If you do, buy a BlackBerry. I'm betting it's considerably below 50%. The number of people who want to install a web server on their phone? Vanishingly small I'm thinking. So, really, what are we talking, 10-15% of the market? Still, maybe even less??

And, I have to say, as a long-time UNIX geek who now has Linux, FreeBSD, XP, Vista, several iPods, and an iPad ... hearing people detracting from the iPhone (or any Apple product) by saying that you can't do "PIM and Office integration to do work" is friggin' hilarious. To me it only reinforces that whole "I'm a PC/I'm a Mac" whereby the PC wants to do all sorts of "fun" things like pie charts ... traditional "business" apps aren't why I have an iPad (or why anybody I know owns an iPhone). That's not who they're selling to. And yet, the most common thing I see is "ZOMG, how will I make teh spreadsheets and sync wiff my Outlook?" -- do you also have one of those calculators with the hand crank and the roll of paper?

Any device I buy with my own money likely isn't going to do any "PIM and Office integration" -- ever. And, those millions of teenagers who IM and do Facebook and play games? I bet they care even less. It really is about understanding how people actually use the device. I question if the supposed benefits of Android really are of benefit to most people. I would argue the market for people buying phones that "just work" as you describe is larger, and therefore more profitable to pursue.

Re:"just work"?

[ceoyoyo]

Really? The Palm Pre will do my work for me? You twist definitions around to suit yourself even more than Jobs does!

When someone says "the device works" there is a single common interpretation - the device does whatever it's supposed to. Equating "the device works" with "helps you do work" is sillier than my equating it with the literal "the device does work."

Re:"just work"?

[geekoid]

yeah..you're not a coroprate guy. There is a huge market for the functionality. It's just that the best at it, so far, is blackberry. They are very entrenched, and you can just start using something new in your company without loosing a lot of work.

It's like you live in a cave.

Yes, corporations want PIM and utlook and office. Yes kids want it as well. They use it for school, they share documents, they like to be able to just grab their contacts.

My son is in 7th grade and there are kids that transfer home work digitally with their device.

Android suits them because they can put whatever they want on it. Use ti as a USB drive. The can transfer using between devices.

Re:"just work"?

[Phleg]

Have you seen the market share of Windows Mobile 6.5? Have you noticed the fact that Microsoft is desperately trying to paddle away from that sinking ship?

I think you might want to consider just how far in the minority you apparently are.

Re:"just work"?

[CAIMLAS]

I would say that less than 50% (as a starting point) of people need to sync with their Outlook calendars, view MS Project, or view a spreadsheet.

Yet anyone who actually needs a smartphone - ie, not for insipid use - needs some basic things:

* well-designed, unified and adaptable PIM which integrates with your desktop/web/phone contacts
* email
* calendar management

These are things with the iPhone and Android fail at. Microsoft does it well, due to copying Palm years ago, and Palm does well because, well... it's Palm.

If you need 2 of the 3 things above, iPhone or Android phones are probably a poor choice.

Re:"just work"?

[CAIMLAS]

If a feature bullet is "has PIM" or "integrates contacts" I'd expect that to mean:

* has a PIM which is at least as featureful and adaptive as something made 5 years ago
* has the ability to sync gracefully with a number of different calendar/contact management tools

I'm sorry, but if it can't even do basics like IMAP properly (Android, last I looked) then it really has no place being called a "smart phone".

I'm not saying "must work with pine and my exotic contact spreadsheet" or even "must work with Thunderbird" (that'd be nice), but the depth of functionality in this department is dreadful on iPhone and Android. Thanks, but I'd rather not be forced to use use Apple Mail or gmail just to use my phone's functionality.

Re:"just work"?

[gstoddart]

yeah..you're not a coroprate guy.

I'm not corporate in the way you want it to mean. But, I work for a large (30,000+) consulting corporation and wear a tie when I'm on client site. I don't have a BlackBerry, but I do use Outlook and Office at work. And when I'm not at work, they're the last things I want. I'm also old enough to want to draw a very clear line between my work and the rest of my life.

It's like you live in a cave.

Or, it's like I don't necessarily agree with all of the whining that everybody needs calendaring and word. Or the implication that anybody who bought a device which can't do this must have clearly chosen wrong. Because the overwhelming argument, as I've seen is "but what about spreadsheets" -- so far you've not done much better.

I'm not even saying that some people don't want this functionality. I'm merely pointing out that there is a huge (and quite likely larger) market of people who aren't interested in PIM and Outlook and Office. It's that vast sea of people who use it for ... well, everything else except business apps.

My son is in 7th grade and there are kids that transfer home work digitally with their device.

I honestly don't know if I should be impressed, or feel sorry for the little bugger as he grows up with a digital leash. Hopefully he will learn to find some balance on that.

New punctuation: "~" at the end of a line to indicate 'Snarky'. http://harns.blogspot.com/

My god, it's like multiple types of consumers can coexist in the same market, and the people who want a highly customizable device can coexist with those who don't.~

They might even accept that it's OK for someone not to use Outlook and Excel and not judge them for it.~

I can almost imagine some wacky form of free market economy where people could buy the device they want and have everyone else would shut up about it.~

You might even conclude that the device which sells more units is more reflective of what people want.~

Why, in my spare time, I could invent some wacky new punctuation to convey the fact that I'm sneering as I type this.~

Seriously, I'm not some Luddite who lives in a cave. I'm aware of these devices, and why people buy them. I'm pointing out that the complaining about not being able to have business apps on their phone might not apply to everybody. Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.

If your 7th grader needs to sync with his Outlook calendar and run spreadsheets, well, that's rather unfortunate. When I was in 7th grade, I rode my skateboard home from school. ;-)

But, hey, you feel free to use whatever tech makes you feel all squishy inside, and I will as well.~

Re:"just work"?

[ceoyoyo]

You're talking about feature points now. Your original post took a shot at Apple's "just works" and suggested it was inaccurate because the iPhone doesn't run Office (there are actually several third party Office-compatible apps that work quite well.

That is very clearly not what Apple means by "just works."

I agree with your latest points though.

Re:"just work"?

[gstoddart]

Yet anyone who actually needs a smartphone - ie, not for insipid use - needs some basic things

I guess it depends on how you define "need", smartphone", and "insipid".

If you assert that everyone who doesn't want to use it the way you want to define it is doing it wrong ... then on general principles I will have to inform you that you're wrong. All people making categorical statements are full of shit. No exceptions. :-P

There is no "right" way to use technology, only the way you need to/want to.

Now, I'm in the minority in that I absolutely don't want a smart phone (at least until they become much cheaper) ... but the overwhelming majority of people I know with them don't do any of the big three you describe.

From what I can tell, it's sending videos, googling, looking at You-tube, texting, and playing games. That's it. Well, Facebook I guess.

I would be curious to see real metrics on usage of these things. I think, at the very least, it would be very enlightening.

Re:"just work"?

[Americano]

I would say that less than 50% (as a starting point) of people need to sync with their Outlook calendars, view MS Project, or view a spreadsheet. If you do, buy a BlackBerry.

Or, more to the point, a large portion of that "less than 50%" have an employer who buys them a blackberry, because "personal devices" and "business devices" need to be kept separate, anyway.

Seriously - if you're a small / independent consultant, you don't need exchange, or outlook calendaring. If you're working for a business above a certain size, your blackberry will most likely be handed to you. That leaves a pretty small middle ground where Outlook is used, but the company isn't big/rich enough to staff appropriately to roll these features out, or purchase blackberries for their employees.

Re:"just work"?

[kikito]

Define "Office Integration".

Re:"just work"?

[CAIMLAS]

A device does not 'just work' if it does not meet a socially acceptable definition for 'working', whatever that 'work' may be. "just working" should be, at least, as good as the previous version.

Just like Vista did not work, and Windows 7 did. Just like OSX does, and OSX9 did not.

Is this "lashing" out?

[UnknowingFool]

I didn't hear the audio of this but the text seems that Jobs is stating his opinion and his reasons behind it. Sure the man is opinionated, and he's known for being a jerk. Many here on slashdot won't agree with him but I won't consider this lashing out. Throwing a chair at a soon-to-be former employee is lashing out.

Dear Steve,

[acoustix]

I want a phone that will let me install whatever app I choose to install regardless of who made it or what store sold it. For me, Android and BlackBerry work best. For the not-so-techy or those who don't care if they're in a walled garden, an iOS device will suit them just fine.

Regards,
Me

Re:Dear Steve,

[thoth]

I want a phone that will let me install whatever app I choose to install regardless of who made it or what store sold it. For me, Android and BlackBerry work best. For the not-so-techy or those who don't care if they're in a walled garden, an iOS device will suit them just fine.

Regards,
Me

I doubt the majority of consumers care about walled gardens... they're getting Android or Blackberry or whatever because that's the smartphone offered by their provider and staying is the path of least resistance. They sure as hell aren't picking a smartphone based on variety of app install choices or esoterica concerning the steps needed to jailbreak their device.

Re:Dear Steve,

[Mr. Bad Example]

> funny that my at&t android will only install items from the marketplace and not
> 'any app i choose' - i read a forum that said i needed to root the device to remove that restriction.

You need to read different forums. Go to Settings, then Applications, and check the setting that says "Allow install of non-Market applications". Done. No root necessary.

Re:Dear Steve,

[Mr. Bad Example]

Actually, scratch that--it looks like AT&T removed that option. However, a.) that's AT&T being a shitty carrier, and not the fault of Android; and b.) there's a way around it already.

Re:Dear Steve,

[microbee]

Just go away

-- Steve

Re:Dear Steve,

[AltairDusk]

Don't you think blaming AT&T would be more appropriate than blaming the OS?

Re:Dear Steve,

[kaiser423]

No, AT&T has disabled this feature. AT&T is stupid, we knew that. The fact that AT&T is stupid has no bearing on whether Android is open or not.

Every other Android phone has that feature.

Re:Dear Steve,

[dnahelicase]

I want a phone that will let me install whatever app I choose to install regardless of who made it or what store sold it. For me, Android and BlackBerry work best. For the not-so-techy or those who don't care if they're in a walled garden, an iOS device will suit them just fine.

Regards, Me

Dear Google/Verizon/ATT/Whoever,

I want that and a phone with no bloatware. I want to install or uninstall anything. I also want tethering at no additional fee, and I want to be able to use whatever device I want on the network. I also want to pay less on my monthly plan if I don't receive a subsidized phone. Since I can't get any of that - for me, iOS works best and is the easiest and most functional.

If you can create a phone that is easier to use, does more, and has more to offer than allowing me to install non-market apps by default (since I can jailbreak either) than I will buy it.

For those that want to feel cool because they can install stuff outside of their walled gardens by default, an Android device will suit them just fine.

Re:Dear Steve,

[Americano]

But what if all of the stuff you want to install is available on the iOS store? Is there any functional difference, then, really?

The answer is...

[Aquina]

The answer is, that none of the two are superior to free operating systems like BSD, GNU/ or for e.g. FreeDOS. In my opinion Apple is no better than Microsoft -- even worse. They kicked out all of the devs from the Quarz project, closed their OS over years and broke the underlying BSD. So if Jobs says users will benefit from "more integrated" stuff one should state the question at which costs that happens. I don't trust Google either and will *never ever* use their OS (not even for less critical operations). I have to mention though that I would choose the latter of those two in case they were the only OS in the world. I would do that simply to be able to have a choice regarding a proprietary user interface! :-)

Surprise surprise

[mrjb]

Headline should have read "Manufacturer Claims Own Product Better Than Competitor". That's all just marketing. In the end, it's up to the consumer to decide what suits them better. For me, it is the platform that does what I tell it to, rather than the platform that tells me what I can or cannot do; no amount of so-called "integration" is going to sway me to the other side.

Re:headline FAIL

[bodhijon]

Mod parent up. My thoughts exactly.

Single, close enviroment?

[Ryanrule]

Windows?

Best iPhone video of all time...

[GPLDAN]

This video is hilarious and sums up Apple iPhone users perfectly


http://www.youtube.com/user/xtranormal#p/a/f/0/FL7yD-0pqZg

Re:Best iPhone video of all time...

[pankkake]

I prefer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVmmYMwFj1I

fragmented?

[Tumbleweed]

Yeah, right. iOS is about as fragmented as Android is. And the people I've talked to with iPhones older than version 4 are having real troubled with the latest version of iOS on their iPhone 3* phones - majorly slow is what I've heard.

While there is _some_ truth to Android not being as open as Google would lay claim to, it's certainly more open than iOS is, and when it comes t getting an app out, Android is the platform benchmark for letting anyone release an app. Apple's a joke in this area. I don't know how app distribution works on Blackberry/Windows Phone platforms, though.

You can not only release your own app on your own website, you can actually open your own Android app MARKETPLACE. Sorry, but that's a level of openness Apple can't and won't compete with.

Re:fragmented?

[codepunk]

Actually you don't know what you are talking about. Yes the first version of ios4 was slower, the later patches fixes all this everything is back to normal speed. I have a number of games I built for the iphone targeting the 3G device, guess how many times I had to rebuild those to keep compatibility? Let me spell it out for you, not once it still runs perfectly and even on the ipad no changes. Now lets talk about porting these games to the android, not going to happen guess why. First of alll I have two choices to do so, native code via the ndk which is a complete joke or port it to the dalvik jvm which does not have enough performance to run the physics routines.

I am a linux dude through and through but I am not so blind that I cannot see android for the hack that it is.

Re:fragmented?

[The Living Fractal]

Nope, sorry. I have the latest patches on a 3GS and it does not bring everything back to normal speed. For example, loading my text messaging is taking on average twice as long now. The keyboard is noticeably less responsive even. Not that I expected any different, but at least get your facts right.

Re:fragmented?

[dannys42]

While there is _some_ truth to Android not being as open as Google would lay claim to, it's certainly more open than iOS is, and when it comes t getting an app out, Android is the platform benchmark for letting anyone release an app.

The problem I have is exactly the fact that Google is trying to push Android as open. Yes Android itself is open. But Android-on-your-cell-phone is not necessarily open... it's up to the vendor to decide.

Regardless of what you think of Apple's openness (or lack of), they have always been upfront about it.

Re:fragmented?

[robco74]

There is an update that speeds up iOS 4 on the iPhone 3G. Runs great on my 3GS. I plan on getting rid of the iPhone however, not because of Apple, but rather AT&T. In any case, Android is open - to the carrier, not to the end user. Try rooting your G2, it will reinstall the old OS. The Sprint handsets ship with that awful NASCAR app that can't be deleted. Buy a Samsung Fascinate on Verizon and you're stuck using Bing as your search engine. Sure, techies could root the phone, but most users can't or won't. Oh, and as for apps, the carriers can also prevent users from installing apps from anywhere other than the Android Market (or soon, their own stores). Android is only as open as the carrier allows it to be. I've yet to hit the wall of the walled garden. If I want to look at adult material, there's not an app for that, but there is a whole internet for that. Google Voice is being allowed. I do wish they'd allow Swype. But overall the problem isn't Apple or Google or HTC or Motorola, it's the wireless companies that prevent any handset from being completely open.

Re:fragmented?

[rsborg]

And the people I've talked to with iPhones older than version 4 are having real troubled with the latest version of iOS on their iPhone 3* phones - majorly slow is what I've heard.

I own a 3GS. My sister owns a 3GS, and several of my friends own a 3G. No problems, everything is fine (3G on iOS 4.0 was a problem if you didn't wipe and reinstall/restore, I hear, but that's been resolved).

Also as long as we're talking anecodotally, I just talked to a coworker with an original Droid (which he loved and had configured perfectly). In the OTA upgrade to Android 2.2, his Droid just halted halfway through and even the Verizon store couldn't restore it back to good. He was SOL, having no backups. They did give him a replacement (refurbished) Droid, and he was able to get his personal data back on it, but all his config and App data(Android users do this more than iOS users) was lost.

All I could relate to him was that, he wouldn't be so up the creek in iOS land because there is no concept of an OTA update (when your iOS device is being firmware updated, you're plugged in)... meaning disruption of power while updating. Furthermore, all iOS devices (through iTunes) have a backup, and it's default process.

Re:fragmented?

[ceoyoyo]

Try using a first gen Android phone with the latest build of Android in a couple of years and see how pleasant that is.

iOS is less fragmented than Android (there are five configurations, six if you count the Apple TV) and it's been around quite a bit longer.

Re:fragmented?

[Phleg]

Honestly, anyone who's still on an iPhone 3G needs to have their head examined. I've had every version of iPhone there is, and I only paid the cost for the very first one. Ever since then, I've eBayed my previous iPhones for more than the cost to upgrade to the next version.

Re:fragmented?

[pipedwho]

Are you sure?

I have a 3GS and 4.0/4.0.1/4.0.2 had quite a few points where the system would lag and pause and many things were slow. But, since the 4.1 update, everything is fast again. The keyboard response is just as good as with the 3.x series, and everything seems to load quickly (actually most apps are much more responsive especially when switching in and out commonly used ones).

I can't comment on the text message thing as I probably don't have as many messages on my phone as you do, so maybe there was a speed regression in that area. But, all things considered, the 4.1 update is what I recommend to friends with 3GS and 3G phones, and so far they've all been more than happy with it performancewise - including friends with the older 3G model.

Re:fragmented?

[Achromatic1978]

Absolutely sure. My wife's 3G runs like a /dog/ with iOS 4 on it. 4.1 is better than 4.0, which was painful, but is still far slower than iOS 3 ever was. She is unimpressed.

They are for two different people

[Pojut]

What Jobs was saying is exactly why, excluding fanboys on both sides, Android tends to be more popular with really geeky folks while the iPhone tends to be more popular with people that want their experience ready to go out of the box.

Re:They are for two different people

[js3]

No that's not what he was trying to say. He was trying to say, my shit is better than yours.

Re:They are for two different people

[Low Ranked Craig]

No, that's not really it. I listend to the conference call, and while he clearly had the "our stuff is the best message" (any CEO that doesn't spout that message should be fired) it was clear that Apple sees Android and iOS as the two major players, and that Apple clearly understands that there is a large group of people that want total control over there device, and for them there is Android.

Re:They are for two different people

[Bill_the_Engineer]

And how is this different than the Android folks who say the same?

Re:They are for two different people

[houghi]

That is what I thought. Since when is it news that people like their own product better then the competition.

Please come back when they say that the competitions product is better.

Re:They are for two different people

[Pojut]

Should have phrased it better...I didn't mean that's what he meant, I meant that what he said is a perfect indication as to why **continue my OP**

Re:They are for two different people

[hierophanta]

i think this is exactly what he was getting at. WTF where you modded troll i dunno. - problem is he was completely putting the PR spin on it, but well, why would we expect any less from any corporation?

Re:They are for two different people

[ValMar73]

Yes. And I find nothing wrong with it. I am an Android fan, but I don't recommend it to newbies. At the same time iOS is too limiting for me. What Jobs said assumes that the only users are the the ones who want the device to just work. And for those the iPhone is perfect, he is right. But there are tinkerers like me, who want flexibility and are willing to put up with some trouble. For those, I am happy Android exists! And IMHO it's really the same thing in the Windows (or now MacOS X) vs Linux discussion

Re:They are for two different people

[yyxx]

Android tends to be more popular with really geeky folks while the iPhone tends to be more popular with people that want their experience ready to go out of the box.

I have both, so let's see.

Android phone: turn on, type in Google account name and password (old or new), and everything works and stays in sync.

iPhone: turn on, and... then it gets complicated. You definitely need a desktop at some point, but then you have to decide... Do you want to sync with Google? That's complicated, you need to set up mail and an Exchange account. Do you sync with your desktop? On Mac, it sort-of syncs with the built-in applications (but not much else). On Windows, it supposedly syncs with Outlook. If you use both a desktop and a laptop, things get even more complicated.

Seems pretty clear which is better for "people who want their experience ready to go out of the box": get an Android phone and use Google's online apps. Apple's ecosystem is a complicated mess in comparison.

Re:They are for two different people

[tsalmark]

Funny how people miss that. I'd also +1 you if I had the points today.

Re:They are for two different people

[frosty_tsm]

+1 Informative. This was a fair and accurate assessment.

Re:They are for two different people

[Pojut]

From that perspective, yes...but having a single hardware revision (outside of different storage sizes) makes things much simpler for people.

Can't play a game on your iPhone that's available in the Apple app store? The only reason why would be because you have an older model. With Android devices, it could be because of your screen resolution, or because you don't have a keypad, or any number of other things that aren't immediately apparent to the average consumer.

Personally, I'm an Android kind of guy (love my Eris! xtrSense, represent) because I enjoy having nigh-infinite flexibility and customization options available to me...but the Android hardware situation can be really confusing for people who don't realize the differences between all of the available handsets.

Re:They are for two different people

[Joe Tie.]

I think you're just repeating things that "everyone knows" without any real basis for it. I mean I have a tablet running 1.6 and a phone with 2.2. All the difference in the world as far as hardware and software. And I still haven't run into any problems. Even better, I can just download programs I bought for the phone right onto the tablet.

Re:They are for two different people

[t2t10]

I think that's still a red herring. Android and iOS both have three common screen resolutions each, and Android apps tend to scale better across them. And hardware buttons are also not a big deal: Android games tend to be all-touch, like iOS games, and the hardware buttons aren't used for game controls.

People who just want a no-hassles Android phone can just get one of the mainstream ones; it's pretty obvious just by looking at them, and anything in the iPhone's price category is going to have high resolution and no problems at all.

The oddballs, like the X10 Mini, are pretty self-evident, and even they run most Android software just fine.

Re:They are for two different people

[Tridus]

Because that opinion hasn't been cleared by the Apple approval board. When Jobs or his cronies say its okay to see that opinion on your phone, then the iSheep will accept it.

Re:They are for two different people

[Xtravar]

For everyone I know, it is the exact opposite. We tinker with electronics at work, we tinker with them at home, we don't need to tinker with our mobile phone. Of everything I could screw up, I would prefer it not being my phone.

Re:They are for two different people

[Ruede]

like the htc or motorola devices dont just work.... ugh..

Re:They are for two different people

[shutdown -p now]

If you use both a desktop and a laptop, things get even more complicated.

One thing that totally pulled me off the whole "iOS experience" is when I configured my newly purchased iPad using my netbook, and synced up some stuff (e.g. books) with it that way.

Side note - why I can't just drag & drop books onto it, and have to go around by first importing them into iTunes and then force-syncing them, is beyond me, but whatever...

Now I plug iPad into my desktop PC, and it tells me to GTFO because it's already set up to sync with a different computer. Apparently, I can change it to sync with the desktop, but doing so will delete all books I've previously synced from the netbook. What the fuck?

Overall, the whole scheme with iTunes seems very convoluted, and not just to me - my mother, for whom that iPad was actually bought, also finds it counter-intuitive, and she's very much an inexperienced user when it comes to anything related to computers. Still, she readily understood the concept of dragging documents to and from a USB stick with a mouse, and was thoroughly confused by the fact that she can't do the same with iPad (and that it doesn't even appear under "Computer" in the same way her music player and camera do).

Re:They are for two different people

[Duradin]

You are a totally unique and special Droidboi, exactly like all the other Droidbois.

Re:They are for two different people

[lidocaineus]

And if I don't use any of google's services, which I don't, because I like keeping my data to myself?

Re:They are for two different people

[w0mprat]

Android: I did a factory wipe of my phone. Android automatically downloaded my phones settings, extensive contact list etc from my Google account, including re-downloading apps from the market. My photos, videos were untouched on the SD card and automatically picked up by the gallery app. If I lost my cellphone I could equally recover all my personal data. Thank you Google for

iPhone: My friend did a full reset of his iPhone, it prompted him "Do you want to back up your iPhone?" he did this. While it backed up his settings. It did not back up his Apps nor his thousands of photos from recent holidays. Needless to say he was distraught and a bit like "So tell me about this Android thing?". Apple gets alot right, but gets other things catastrophically wrong.

Frankly I have heard so many stories like this and I've never had a single problem with my Android phones. In situations like this it's saved my bacon by respecting my data, and the completely painless syncing to Google is a delight. Every non-geek I know who's bought an Android is utterly happy.

Re:They are for two different people

[leptons]

Jobs was only trying to change the subject here. The subject was open vs. non-open platform. Jobs quickly turned the conversation to "Android is very fragmented", which does not speak about the topic of open vs. closed. It really shows how scared he is of Android, because he can't talk his way out of the fact that the iPhone is one of the most heavily restricted software/hardware platforms in the world. The conversation isn't really about 'fragmented vs. integrated' - users don't care, but they do care when they can't run software they want to run, and that is where Jobs is trying to change the subject.

Re:They are for two different people

[lisany]

I set up my iPhone by typing in my Mobile Me account details and my IMAP account credentials. Pretty simple. Not that I use Mobile Me for email - I have my own postfix/courier setup for IMAP mail. Google can keep the private data of other suckers.

Re:They are for two different people

[aztracker1]

What's equally awesome, is this works in reverse on Android (admittedly getting my wife's motorola based phone to use google for contacts instead of moto's was a pain), I've run my G1 for about 18 months now... aside from it being slow, and still wanting to update to froyo (still running an old rooted cupcake version) it runs fine for me... I often edit my contacts via gmail/gvoice and they automagically sync to my phone... I prefer editing/updating contacts on a full PC when I need it... this feature alone is nicer than any other phone for how I use my phone most of the time... a phone with a built in phone book...

Re:They are for two different people

[SanityInAnarchy]

What part of Android doesn't "just work"?

Re:They are for two different people

[hey!]

In general, Apple pays a lot of attention to things that it wants to matter to you. If that's not the same as what actually matters to you, then things can get a little rough.

For example, it's really easy to download the latest episode of the most popular TV series in iTunes, or to buy the latest top 40 hits. It's a lousy system for finding obscure stuff, even if its in the store; it keeps trying steer you back in the herd.

It's not all that hard to get an iPod touch synching with Google Mail. It's impossible to get it to display entire track titles if they're too long. How could Apple have screwed up something so basic? I guess it's not part of the buying experience, it's not part of the selling experience so Apple doesn't care about a detail like that.

If you accidentally turn lyrics display off, there is no manifest interface for turning them back on. You have turn to Google to figure out how.

Not to rag on Apple's UI design, because they're head and shoulders over most of the competition; they're just far from where they ought to be, because despite Jobs legendary obsession with some details, he just doesn't care about others, and those don't get taken care of.

Re:They are for two different people

[c_forq]

Are you sure your friend backed up his iPhone? I recently did what you described, and everything was restored without a problem (by the way, even if you delete a program on your phone it is still kept in iTunes. You can simply re-check it and the app will install next time you sync).

Re:They are for two different people

[j00r0m4nc3r]

Jobs was only trying to change the subject here. The subject was open vs. non-open platform. Jobs quickly turned the conversation to "Android is very fragmented"

Except that he was giving the specific reason for why their platform is more restricted. Essentially he is saying open leads to fragmentation, closed leads to consistency, which I think is true.

Re:They are for two different people

[Hooya]

> Android is very fragmented

I have a droid and i really don't care how fragmented the android market is. I got to pick the phone i liked. and *my* droid - the single instance of the phone - is not fragmented. it works the same every day of the week. so, as a user, i don't really care how fragmented the market is. as a developer i do care - but Jobs, trying to frame it as something a user would care - "every phone works the same" - how is that a benefit for a user?

Re:They are for two different people

[kaizokuace]

also, apple is a hypocrite. They insist that a Mac and PC are two different things entirely! To stay in line with that line of thinking Jobs should just refer to other phones as just phones and his is the iPhone.

Re:They are for two different people

[berj]

As far as syncing things like contacts and calendars there is nothing that compares to mobile me. Data on all of my ios devices and macs (I have 5 devices to keep sync - iPhone iPad, home iMac, laptop and work Mac) syncs instantly. No need to even tell it what to do beyond entering my username and password. I've never seen any service/app combination from either Microsoft or Google that comes even close in that arena.

I've never really been interested in storing my documents on a remote webserver so google's apps don't really hold any interest for me.

As far as a holistic ecosystem goes.. Apple has nailed it.

Re:They are for two different people

[EmperorPsiblade]

His friend apparently had never synced it ever before. How you manage to pull that one off is beyond me.

Re:They are for two different people

[Kyusaku Natsume]

I find your friend has real has the root square of -1.

Re:They are for two different people

[indiechild]

When I got my new iPhone, I backed up my old one and then restored it onto my new one. I got everything back: SMS, photos, apps, even the documents I had saved within my apps' local storage like GoodReader. So I don't know what happened with your friend's phone.

Re:They are for two different people

[jmottram08]

I recently did the exact same to my iPhone, and lost my pictures, music, and apps.

/shrug Maybe there was some way to do it correctly, maybe if i had set it up to sync or something, but there was only the one button there, and I try my hardest to stay away from iTunes.

What alarmed me about the process was how long it took to just restore a backup that didn't have any real data with it. It took over an hour to do what exactly? Send about a gig over USB 2.0? Why does it take SO long to not do a good job?

Re:They are for two different people

[c_forq]

How did you back it up without iTunes? How did you try to restore it afterwards? What is the one button you are referring to? Your post doesn't really make sense. Am I feeding a troll?

Re:They are for two different people

[fractoid]

No that's not what he was trying to say. He was trying to say, my shit is better than yours.

Wait, so Steve Jobs knows the quality of your shit?

...WAIT, he knows the quality of MY shit too? Goddamn macbook is spying on me...

Re:They are for two different people

[Spaseboy]

Most cell phone users have a two year contract, meaning they only upgrade their phones every two years. I had a T-Mobile G1 and less than a year after its introduction it was obsolete for anyone but the hackers because even though the phone COULD run higher versions of this "open" Android, it was abandoned because frankly no one makes any money in free upgrades.

I've really only seen like, 1 or 2 Android handsets have more than one point release upgrade and with the rate of Android releases that's just asinine. Apple supported their original phone in OS updates for 3 years and it can still run the latest applications.

As a consumer, you know, the people who actually have the money, I won't buy another Android phone because A) I don't like to have to jump through hoops to get root on my phone (with iPhones it's a simple, automated process) and B) I'd like updates for a phone that can support them to actually be delivered upon instead of constantly buying a new piece of hardware.

Re:They are for two different people

[CheeseToasty]

Unfortunately for Steve, the opposite of open is closed and that’s not a fancy word that can be marketed any differently.

He seems to be clutching at sticks when he decides what the debate should be renamed to and mentioning iOS trumps so far that are; the iPhone just works (as apple allows it to) and its closed development leaves more potential for innovation (Jobs has shown in the past that innovation is on trickle feed to allow for more one worded slides next release).

The fact is that the Android user experience can and should be different across the board, its actually about making itself freely available and customisable, which leads to more choices for the consumer (perhaps they believe the consumer has the intellect to "work it out"). Andriod opens up the floor for manufactures to produce different ranges of performing devices (not just one size fits all product life cycle) and android allows these devices to operate at their full potential.

Innovation in this model is a flowing two way street between the hardware and OS - as is the case in the PC world, a world in which apple products seem to eventually follow the mainstream.

Sounds like he needs to brace himself for the time when people get word that things "just work better" on Android.

Re:They are for two different people

[Suhas]

I also want things from it that no-one else might have thought of.

OMG, you are unique, just like everyone else.

Re:They are for two different people

[Yetihehe]

The funny thing is Jobs says "Think different" and then he says "There is only one phone, different phones are bad".

Re:They are for two different people

[t2t10]

Are you sure your friend backed up his iPhone?

Many people don't because they think their iPhone is a cloud device; people even sell it that way ("oh, you don't really need a PC, we'll just set it up for you").

Furthermore the "sync" is so slow (even if little has changed) that many people either don't have the patience to wait for it or just assume that something is wrong and disconnect.

Re:They are for two different people

[t2t10]

As far as a holistic ecosystem goes.. Apple has nailed it.

No, they haven't. I went completely Apple for a few years after OS X came out: desktop, laptop, mobile, Mobile Me. It was a frustrating, poor, and expensive solution. It was worse than the Palm Treo I was using before, and it is far worse than Google. Apple's poor PIM functionality was one of the reasons I gave up on Mac and just use it as a glorified media player now.

Re:They are for two different people

[kyz]

I don't like to have to jump through hoops to get root on my phone (with iPhones it's a simple, automated process)

You do realise that the reason you have root on your iPhone is because hackers found a hole in Apple's security, one that soon got closed?

The "hoops" in getting root on Android are because they're the sanctioned way to do it. If there was a remote root exploit in Android's web browser, some other hacker could give you a one-step jailbreak too.

Besides, there's very little you actually need root for - for Apple users, it's to be able to install apps that aren't from the app store, or to run more than one thing at once. Android already does that without root.

Re:They are for two different people

[AmiMoJo]

A) Rooting many Android phones is one click. My Galaxy S is as simple as installing an app.

B) Most manufacturers do release updates, and if they don't you are free to buy from a different one.

C) Most apps run on all versions of Android. The OS updates will update the built in apps and make things a bit faster, but 99% of apps will run pretty much the same. Therefore even if you don't get the latest version of the OS it makes little practical difference. Your phone is still as good as when you bought it and you are not locked out of new apps.

Re:They are for two different people

[kernhe]

to sum it um: "same shit -- different asshole."

Re:They are for two different people

[NiteShaed]

You do realise that the reason you have root on your iPhone is because hackers found a hole in Apple's security, one that soon got closed?

The "hoops" in getting root on Android are because they're the sanctioned way to do it. If there was a remote root exploit in Android's web browser, some other hacker could give you a one-step jailbreak too.

That's not quite true. Getting root on Android, at least when using Unrevoked (a popular rooting tool) does indeed require using an expoit. From the UnrEVOked website:
"At this time, unrevoked3 works on all versions of the supported phones, thanks to the exploit discovered by Sebastian Krahmer."

"Will you release the source code?
At this time, we are not disclosing the vulnerability we have exploited to unlock the NAND flash."

Android is open as in open-source, but the handsets themselves are locked down by the carriers and manufacturers. They want to keep you away from root just as much as Apple does with the iPhone.

Re:They are for two different people

[darien.train]

And how much does Mobile Me cost you annually versus using Google's sync on Android?

Re:They are for two different people

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

On Mac, it sort-of syncs with the built-in applications (but not much else).

Sort-of syncs with a Mac? Perhaps you could go into a bit more detail?

On Windows, it supposedly syncs with Outlook.

Supposedly? Are you suggesting there is a reason to think it doesn't work properly?

If you use both a desktop and a laptop, things get even more complicated.

Not if you just sync it with one of them. MobileMe works well, otherwise.

Re:They are for two different people

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Some of us are OK with paying a reasonable price for a good service.

Re:They are for two different people

[stewbacca]

"Fragmented" is an unfortunate byproduct of "open". Jobs' point is accurate, but I don't think it pulls much weight with people who want an "open" platform--in spite of being "fragmented".

The "fragmented" line plays well with Apple loyalists, because it's everything they hate about non-Apple products.

Neither side is wrong, and yes Steve might sound like a jack ass, but some of us actually like the walled garden/just works approach.

Re:They are for two different people

[Achromatic1978]

But are you okay with paying for MobileMe, which has had so many issues and failings that it's bordering on laughable to define it as "a good service"?

Re:They are for two different people

[hazydave]

Of course, Jobs only gets to say its fragmented by making things up, and by dropping support of older firmware. So you're supported by iOS 4 or iOS3... or you're just plain not supported. Ok, sure, the upgrades are cheap, but it's also telling that he's only allowing for two versions still being supportable. If that continues, he's got real problems, since most of the current devices can't run iOS4, and the few older ones that do, don't run it well.

And the "making it up" part... each separate HW/SW combination does not even remotely constitute a different version of Android. I don't know where Stevie Boy got his CS degree... oh, right, he doesn't have one. Someone at Apple should tell him that one major purpose of any OS is to abstract HW from SW. Or point out, it's kind of like supporting MacOS systems, fragmentation-wise... only less so, since 2.2 and 2.1 constitute the vast majority of Android devices ever created.

Re:They are for two different people

[hazydave]

Not only that, but a little variety of devices leads to a better OS.

Despite years of supporting different resolution on MacOS, Apple had the brain-damaged idea of only supporting 480x320 displays on all versions of the iOS up to the specially hacked original version on the iPad. Android apps might be better optimized for one resolution vs. another, but I have yet to find an application that doesn't use my Droid's screen in a reasonable way. Apple had to go to the crazy extreme of building in a 960x640 pixel display in the iPhone 4, just do old apps could be handled by a 2x2 scaling factor. Ok, it's a nice display, but it would be even nicer if all of their apps adjusted to screen rez as well as Android apps do.

Re:They are for two different people

[abhi_beckert]

Android is fragmented *because* it's open.

And the way they've chosen to implement "open" has made it even more fragmented than an open platform needs to be.

Re:They are for two different people

[abhi_beckert]

My dad just bought an android phone on a two year contract, and after 3 weeks has complained because he can't get tethering to work —even after posting to various forums and even emailing a company who sells android tethering software. I personally spent 4 hours on phone and following tutorials on the net trying to get it to work, and failed even though my colleague has it working fine on his android phone.

Dad's phone company has cancelled his 2 year contract given him an iPhone 4 instead —where tethering is easy to setup and doesn't require any third party software.

Anyone who says android "works out of the box" compared to an iPhone is smoking crack. I'm not saying the iPhone is simple... it's not. But at least it works as advertised.

Re:They are for two different people

[abhi_beckert]

Blame your book publisher. Only specific categories of content are deleted when you switch to a different computer.

Apps, which is the only content where apple controls the drm, are not deleted. As long as you don't change to a different app store account, you're good to transfer it —and use the same apps on multiple devices with a single purchase.

Re:They are for two different people

[abhi_beckert]

Dunno what happened to your friend, but i lost my iPhone and three weeks later plugged a new one, two hardware revisions newer, into my computer. "Do you want to setup a new phone, or restore your most recent backup?" Clicked restore, waited for ~14GB of data to be transferred across, phone rebooted, and it was as if i had my old phone back.

Didn't have to touch a single setting or do any configuration to get it working how i had it before.

Re:They are for two different people

[shutdown -p now]

Blame your book publisher. Only specific categories of content are deleted when you switch to a different computer.

It wasn't even books from the Apple store. It was just a bunch of ePub files (legal, if you must know - purchased elsewhere) that I previously synced from the netbook. No DRM there at all, so I don't see what publisher has to do with it.

Re:They are for two different people

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I've yet to encounter any issues. Then again, I wasn't an early adopter of the service, so perhaps they've been working to improve it?

Re:They are for two different people

[jakelson]

I can see your point, until you realize it's time to ditch you first Google phone from a year ago, and you buy your Samsung Fascinate (because of all the great press it's getting) and find out that you CAN'T USE ANY GOOGLE APPS!! YEAH! BABY! YEAH! That's just another example of fragmentation that Steve is talking about.

If Google would've went "OPEN" for the "CONSUMER" and not allowed the manufacturer or phone company to manipulate their user interface we wouldn't be having this conversation. Using that tactic they would have had a chance to beat the iPhone in all markets. Let the user manipulate their default interface by choice, but lock the manufacturer & phone companies from cramming their craptacular ideas down the users throats. Most phone manufacturers & phone companies (especially Verizon) could care less about the actual phone user experience. They add hooky unusable ploys to trap people into paying more without adding value.

I will disclose that I have been a Mac user for 10+ years and an iPhone user for most of the product cycles (skipped the 3G). Hell yes I am biased! But no matter what you think, it is for GOOD REASON. Do I hate that I have to Jailbreak it to get additional functionality? Hell yes, again! Overall, it's not entirely about the phone. It's about the quality and attention to detail. There are plenty of things I believe they should change about the iPhone. But they care about the quality and long-term benefit of the user and the entire package and satisfaction. This is a company that wants to make something excellent! I agree they don't always make the right decisions and I do get upset with them (ahem-iTunes syncing for everything?!? AHEM! Full 600Mb updates for a couple little changes?!?).

I am a true believer that Apple's overall core value is not about the money. It is about the product and the consumer's experiences with that product. That said, they do believe you should pay for that excellent experience.

Re:They are for two different people

[jmottram08]

No, i am serious. I used iTunes of course for the backup and restore, and there wasn't anything that jumped out as a "do you want to save your pictures and music? yes/no".

The point i was trying to get across was that i don't use iTunes, and i followed a very basic backup / restore procedure and the only thing there really was was the option to either backup or restore.

Like i said, maybe there was a way, but it sure wasn't/isn't defaulted to "on", and there wasn't a dialog that asked to do it for me.

Re:They are for two different people

[t2t10]

Only specific categories of content are deleted when you switch to a different computer.

No, sorry, that's just not true.

Re:They are for two different people

[t2t10]

You can already get DoubleTwist and Amazon MP3 for Android. You'll get Unbox pretty soon. Altogether, that makes Android a better and more convenient platform than iPod.

This coming from the company that...

[MikeRT]

has arguably the most arbitrary and capricious process for vetting the applications produced for its platform of any platform provider around?

Seriously, my God man, it takes balls so big you need to be checked for testicular cancer to have Apple's track record in dealing with iPhone developers to get on Google's case here.

Sure, maybe the Android platform will end up truly and badly fragmented, but it is not there yet. Furthermore, at least there is always the option of people creating their custom images and processes for helping end users get around vendor crap.

Re:This coming from the company that...

[IKnwThePiecesFt]

Rooting a newer Android phone is pretty comparable to jailbreaking an iPhone. So yeah, getting around vendor crap is about the same on both phones.

Sounds like someone is...

[The Hatchet]

Compensating for something. He is just pissed that people have freedom on the android, which means porn can exist, and so can non-apple-approved bullshit. Common, yes the fragmentation is a problem with the android market, but at least there is freedom there too.

Re:Sounds like someone is...

[Americano]

Yeah, since when do you need to load "porn apps" to see T'n'A on the web? Spankwire, Youporn, Pornhub, Tube8 - all work fine on iOS devices, and all have quite a variety of videos available for you to... watch.

This argument of 'they won't approve porn apps' seems specious to me. Why would you ever consider that you *need* a special app to browse a porn website?

Re:headline FAIL

[mark72005]

Apple isn't selling the same thing as Motorola or HTC are selling. Apple sells the smoothness/simplicity/overall "goodness" of user experience. It's a fundamental misunderstanding to say that Apple in any way wants to emulate Google or Android.

And I'm not an Apple apologist, I just recognize what he is saying for what it is. It's only a critique of what "open" really means where the rubber meets the road. Open is a great concept on the mobile platform, but when have we really seen it?

It's a good re-frame of the issue

[peacefinder]

Jobs totally dodged the open/closed issue. But his attempt to reframe the difference as fragmented/integrated is not just a good PR move for them, but a telling point. Apple's strength has always been as a system integrator, which brings substantial value to the ordinary user.

A lot more openness from them still would be nice, though. :-)

Re:It's a good re-frame of the issue

[Ruke]

Exactly. Jobs and Rubin are making different points here. Open-sourced and consistent are completely different issues. For the obligatory car analogy, Rubin is saying "Android has power windows and locks!", and Jobs is shouting, "No, what consumers really want is a red car! Your cars are all blue!" Each side's fanboys can walk away smug, knowing that what their glorious leader said was correct; what they're overlooking is that the other guy was correct too.

This isn't a meaningful discussion, this is two people setting up and knocking down strawmen. Neither has any real interest in a real conversation.

Speaking of fragmented...

[jordan314]

I'm surprised fragmentation is his choice of argument against Android. There are several things iOS does better than Android, but it's getting harder and harder to develop for iOS because of fragmentation. Hell, it used to be called iPhone OS, not iOS, but now you have to make sure your code works on previous generation iPhones, the 4's retina display, the iPad, and the iPod Touch. Resolution differences, support for multitasking, and camera differences are all getting more difficult to manage!

Re:Speaking of fragmented...

[Facegarden]

I'm surprised fragmentation is his choice of argument against Android. There are several things iOS does better than Android, but it's getting harder and harder to develop for iOS because of fragmentation. Hell, it used to be called iPhone OS, not iOS, but now you have to make sure your code works on previous generation iPhones, the 4's retina display, the iPad, and the iPod Touch. Resolution differences, support for multitasking, and camera differences are all getting more difficult to manage!

Yes, but "fragmented" is so believable if you don't actually have any experience with android - it makes great FUD! I mean, there's lots of phones running android, so they must all be different and incompatible. Look at all the laptops running windows that weren't intercompatible! I mean, once Windows 7 came out, Windows XP became basically unusable! /s
-Taylor

Re:Speaking of fragmented...

[shadowrat]

I think it's a valid point. there was a recent article about the developers of tweetdeck encountering some 200+ permutations of android. IOS has about 9.

Of those, the differences are small. All have the same keyboard. Similar screen functions. 3 resolutions, and 2 of them are abstracted to the point that you don't need to worry about them. IOS has a really nice UI api that works in points rather than pixels, and you never have to do anything but make some images that are 2X bigger and name them with an @2x to support the retina display. you never need to fiddle with the locations of screen elements or write retina specific code if you are working in cocoa.

Almost all devices now have cameras and gps and compass and gyro.

Apple is militant (to a fault) about obsoleting old devices. There's no point in supporting the 3G anymore. Heck, even their ide releases systematically remove old sdks. Writing code for os 3.x devices is becoming a crapshoot as there is nothing to compiletime check your code against the old sdk. the iPad is a little more work to support, but OS 4.2 should bring it more in line with it's more diminutive siblings. If you think IOS is fractured, you probably never developed for Web, Windows, Linux, Windows Mobile, Symbian, even Java rivals IOS for fractured.

Re:Speaking of fragmented...

[elbowboy]

So while I agree the fragmentation issue isn't a deal breaker there are some downsides. For example I have a droid, my dad has a HTC Incredible. When he calls me and asks me in old man speak how to do things I can't always answer his question as the HTC sense experience does make some things work differently. While it's not a huge problem it is one thing that with can get worse over time, however the market should take care of itself in this area as if someone makes a user experience that is crappy no one will buy their product, and if someone finds a way to make it rock then it'll get absorbed by all within a release or two. Same thing with multiple markets, if i buy from amazon or from google who cares, I get the software i want and get to put it on my device. Only time it could be an issue is when the same product is on both and the functionality isn't the same. Just face facts Steve Jobs is just plain unamerican in his use mine or nothing approach. I mean what if i want an iphone but i love porn, this is just too stressful....

Re:Speaking of fragmented...

[bm_luethke]

Yep, very much so.

Androids VM makes a great deal of the "fragmentation" go away too, you write towards it and for the most part it will work pretty anywhere a device has what you give it for your manifest. Of the options you will most likely need to test against (say screen size) the VM that runs on your PC is perfectly fine for that. The possibility of running into a strange device that needs a special work around is MUCH slimmer than getting bitten by Apples fragmentation. Android is really only fragmented in the way Windows or Linux is - lots of different hardware and UI options out there but you are basically writing against a known common API and you don't have to test against every possible thing out there. Apple is MUCH worse in that it isn't abstracted nearly as much and there are real differences - it is much more similar to when we went from the 2.4 to the 2.6 kernel in Linux and you often had to do major changes depending on which system your software was going to run on and it was expected you would do both.

However, FUD is easier to fight as you can pick exactly the scenario where you win. Unfortunately for Apple it means you just kicked the pants off something that doesn't exist and if the real market competitor is competing against what you *actually* do you loose in the long run. It wouldn't be the first time Apple was poised to truly dominate a market, a competitor came out, and Apple competed with a fictional version of them and as such lost. When PC's began catching up in the graphics arena they certainly did that and their laptops phenomenal growth fizzled when they did it too. Neither market really failed (they make decent enough products and a large percentage of their customers are EXTREMELY loyal - many will even believe the FUD too), but instead of being a VERY distant second or third they could have been totally dominate.

And that, kids is what we call...

[RyanFenton]

'Changing the subject'.

"Folks have been saying your platform seems a bit proprietary and closed."
"Hey, how about them White Sox?"
"Your platform might be proprietary and closed."
"Yeah, well so is your mother!"
"Your platform is proprietary and closed."
"Oh yeah? Well, you just must not like having a good experience with your phone."

The problem is that all the more reasonable responses might paint them into a corner where they have to offer an option for a sandbox for a more open use of their platform - and their strategy precludes that as an option. So, like with elections where offering a valid option to voters is too risky (to your various monied interests), insulting the other option becomes the rule of the day.

Ryan Fenton

Re:And that, kids is what we call...

[david_thornley]

The problem is that you have no idea what the marketplace is like. Everybody who really wants openness jailbreaks their iPhone, and nobody else cares.

Re:And that, kids is what we call...

[GodfatherofSoul]

There's a better term for it; the non sequitur. The last haven for politicians and snake oil salesmen. When honed to perfection, the listener never even realizes he's no longer listening to an answer.

"I believe we should remove all references to Christianity from our government."
"Well, you must hate Jesus!"

"I disagree with this war."
"You're either a coward or a traitor!"

Steve Jobs is disingenuous too

[amigabill]

After all, the iPhone is simply one part of the overall fragmented smartphone market. People are confused, choosing not just between one Android phone and another vs choosing a consistent iPhone separate market, they also have to bother with confusion in choosing Android, iPhone, Blackberry, Windows 6, or Windows 7, etc. iPhone provides consistency on Apple devices, but that's a very particular corner of the smartphone market, and is only consistent with itself in the same way that all Droid X phones are consistent with other Droid X phones. It's all semantics, it's marketing, and it's B.S.

Re:Steve Jobs is disingenuous too

[FallinWithStyle]

Let's not forget that not all iPhones/iPod Touchs/iPad run the same version of iOS... There is fragmentation there as well..

Re:headline FAIL

[theaveng]

Jobs is doing what the typical car salesman or Sears clerk does - twisting the facts. "Self-rinse cycle? Airbags? Openness? Nah you don't want or need any of that. Trust. Me. :-D"

His opinion is therefore biased and means Nothing to me.

It's called...

[__aagmrb7289]

It's called "changing the conversation". Steve Jobs is rightly pointing out the problems that Android is facing, that Apple is not. And he's detailing them well, and discussing Apple's real advantages in this area - their clear focus on this aspect of the business will speak well to the business people on the call.

That said, he's "changing the conversation" - which is another way of saying "change the subject" - he's avoiding the real issues, and the true accusations of Android fans (and Google) - that Android is more open then Apple.

Overall, the only thing to really note here is whether or not Steve manages to change the conversation - the same way that anti-iPhone users managed to change the conversation about the launch of the new iPhone to the reception problems - and how Steve failed to change the conversation by trying to shift it into a "general problem that everyone has". Marketing 101, ya'all.

Steve Jobs: i-am-Phony

[syousef]

Every Apple handset locks you out of using the phone the way you want to just the same. Every handset fails just the same if you touch it in the right place. Every handset requires you to buy apps from the same store.

Thank you Mr Jobs, now take your locked down phone, your cloud and your rant and fuck off. Don't let your iPhone hit yer ass on the way out.

Steve Bubbie

[xednieht]

I'd have no problem with the iPhone or the App store if you weren't such a PRICK, oh yeah and let me choose my own F*CKING phone company.

Re:Steve Bubbie

[Stregano]

Lol, you said boubie :)

Re:Steve Bubbie

[IKnwThePiecesFt]

And I'd take your post seriously if you weren't so CHILDISH, oh yeah and if you sounded REASONABLE.

Re:Steve Bubbie

[geekoid]

YOU found it SERIOUS enough to post a RESPONSE.

I'm going to go with Fragmented

[erroneus]

I have had an Android phone for only a few months now. In that time, I have learned much about it especially about how to un-soft-brick it. But also, I have noted compatibility problems between 1.5 android and 1.6+ android as there are numerous apps that are either distributed twice to support both groups of versions or only supports 1.6 and above. I have also noticed that some apps only work with particular models of phones. These are some real problems.

But given the choice between Android and iPhone, I still have to favor Android.

iPhone is locked and restricted in ways that simply make me uncomfortable. The non-removable battery still bugs me. I'm not "every user" though and so my opinion on the matter is pretty much worthless as a measure of what "the people" like.

"The people" don't see a lot of difference between iPhone and Android. "The people" see a phone with a touch screen and snazzy graphics and are happy with that experience. I see people on the bus and on trains poking, touching, sliding and pinching on both iPhone and Android phones with equal joy.

Jobs is probably most bugged by the fact that Android phones look enough like iPhone that people are rather confused. Calling Apple "closed" is pretty accurate. They are closed and limited and restricted.

As Apple is the only maker of iPhone compatible devices, of course there's no fragmentation. And when a market is OPEN to compete, there will be lots of differentiation out there. So more than the phones themselves, but the iPhone market is also very closed, limited and restricted. The Android market is open by comparison. But yeah... there is more "trouble" associated with Android wares. There is certainly more crapware installed. It's all part of the give and take of it all. I say it's worth the trouble to be open.

Jobs is babbling.

[fyngyrz]

Jobs also criticized the Android Marketplace, pointing out that there are at least three other app stores being launched by vendors, causing confusion for users and work for developers. "This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers,"

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.

I really do like my Apple products, but not for the reasons Jobs pushes; more like in spite of his ideas. I'd love another store, particularly one where Jobs Judeo-Christian mores aren't pushed upon me; or, conversely, if Apple's store stopped insisting that apps have to work they way they think they should, or that apps "can't duplicate functionality." I'm hugely fond my my iPad, but the idea that it would be less useful to me if there were more than one app store available to me... that's just wrong.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Bill_the_Engineer]

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.

I have only one Google Marketplace on my phone but the prices are in different world currencies. I have more than one drug store, supermarket, and fast food chain near me most of the time, and they ALWAYS give their prices in my LOCAL currency. Apple's App Store is the same way.

Google's Marketplace needs more work before it can approach the user experience given by Apple's App Store.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[yincrash]

Apparently you've never been to Publix.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Macrat]

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.

The required car analogy.... Your Chevy will only let you drive to Walgreens, while your Ford will only let you drive to Rite Aid.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[rufus t firefly]

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.

I have only one Google Marketplace on my phone but the prices are in different world currencies. I have more than one drug store, supermarket, and fast food chain near me most of the time, and they ALWAYS give their prices in my LOCAL currency. Apple's App Store is the same way.

Google's Marketplace needs more work before it can approach the user experience given by Apple's App Store.

The last time I looked at the market on 2.2, it showed everything in ~ USD amounts.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is all because his argument isn't about the consumer in actuality, it's about his revenue stream. A guaranteed 30% from every single app sold? Imagine if MS got that for every Windows App? Even if the customer requests a refund, they get to keep it, that since 100% comes out of the developer's pocket. And they get approval, so they can push their moral choices on everyone else, that's just a bonus.

I welcome all of this simply because the more people like him push, the more ordinary people start to wake up and push back. Revolutions just don't happen in places where the masses aren't really pissed off. Coups, maybe, but not full fledged revolutions. And we are overdue for one right about now.

Even having said that, this is still way too early for one, I think. But it's coming.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Phreakiture]

Have you ever been to a Wegmans? I don't want any other supermarkets...

Ah, but how would you know that if you'd never set foot in a Tops or a Bell's?

And what do you do if Wegman's stops carrying what you want?

Don't get me wrong; I love Wegman's. I wish they had them where I live, because Price Chopper and Hannaford would have to up their game. Still, Wegman's is not perfect, and neither is the Apple App Store. Until it is, there must be alternatives.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Cwix]

I always liked Publix. Havn't shopped at one in a few years though.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[AltairDusk]

Wegmans is awesome but my wallet is happy I don't shop there all the time...

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[moeluv]

Sorry man I've been to both Wegman's and Publix. Publix is trying to copy the Wegman's model. They are close but Wegmans wins hands down.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah right. Do you have an app for that?

The critical mass of people in the west have their heads so far up the ars***les of people like Jobs, they don't know what the fuck they want or need.

Just listen to the apple cocksuckers on this website - after all this is supposed to be a place for nerds and geeks and yet you put some glowing plastic in front of them and keep telling them it's what Einstein would've used and they fall for it. It's truly mind-blowing!

They work their little hearts out day in day out just to pay for this tat. and all the while their world is crumbling around them.

They're told everything they need to know - what they should think and when, what they should aspire to, what is possible and what is not.

No one could've predicted that consumerism would reach such heights (or lows)

If you ask them (and most people in the west) then any attempt to improve the system will lead to a replacement that is as bad if not worse.

The sad truth is that nothing is inevitable, and there just isn't the slightest chance of a revolutionary change in who has the power in the west. Things are going to really fall apart before you see any change whatsoever, and they will. And by that time it will very probably be too late.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[marcello_dl]

> one where Jobs Judeo-Christian mores aren't pushed upon me.

App store follows judeo-christian mores?
Cool! then if i resell warez apps, instead of suing the pants off me, jobs will give me the source code as in Luke 6:29.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[gnapster]

My DeLorean lets me drive to a variety of pharmacies where the medicine is developed by hobbyist chemists.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[maj1k]

whoa hold up. i had no idea there was a fart box app, let alone *multiple* apps.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good thing he's not pushing Judo-Christian mores on you then, right? Indications are he is Buddhist, not Christian or Jewish. But I guess you feel better equating over-bearing, pushy salesmen with your biased preconceptions of a particular religious philosophy than making a comparison with his actual belief system.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Cryolithic]

did you really * out ARSEHOLE but leave in fuck and cocksucker???

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[countertrolling]

A revolution? For what? Because the glass display on your iPhone cracked? Yeah, that oughta make the native pretty restless.. It would definitely be a first, that an appliance could cause such widespread despair and hopelessness..

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[chrisG23]

Jobs also criticized the Android Marketplace, pointing out that there are at least three other app stores being launched by vendors, causing confusion for users and work for developers. "This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers,"

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.

Your analogy is not completely isomorphic. If a food or drug manufacturer makes a product, they can directly sell it to any drug store, supermarket or fast food chain. Because the process of eating is the same for all people. You put food in one end, some hours later poop comes out the other end, the details are hidden by the black box of the digestive system.

Computer software is different. Unless there is a 100% agreed upon and followed standard in a hardware/software ecosystem, then different versions of the software will have to exist to account for the various hardware/software configurations. Apple's phone ecosystem is a completely closed and controlled system. A developer has to decide which is the minimum hardware configuration he wants to support (the 1, 2, 3, 3gs or whatever, or the 4) and code from there, knowing it will work on ALL phones that use that version of the OS or higher. Or they can code a reduced feature/functionality/blingbling branch to hit the early version(s) of IOS that don't support all the stuff they want. That is the extent of it.

The situation with Android is a little different. There are many different hardware configurations to support, and many different modifications or branches or forks or implemented features or extensions of the base OS. Having multiple stores will be good for a consumer. I can go to APP store X which I know verifies that all apps work with my version of Android (hopefully). As a developer I know have to ensure that my app meets the quality/interoperability standards of APP store X. But...... I have to QA again and possibly change code to meet the requirements of APP store Y. And again for APP store Z. And so on. Its not good for me as a developer unless I only want to target APP store X, which cuts the market for my apps way down. Or I can use some sort of multiplatform development kit/framework which will do the work of making cross platform/hardware binaries of whatever I am developing, which has its own limitations and trade offs.

So in summary, Steve Jobs does have a point about this and is not spouting straight bullshit. This time.

Anybody with actual apple phone and android phone development under their belt have anything to chime in with, one way or another? Not geek fan-boys of either system, but nerds with useful knowledge and experience to share?

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[SanityInAnarchy]

Puritanical, then. The "no porn on the App store" certainly isn't a Buddhist ideal.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[TrancePhreak]

The lead in charge of app approval has his own published fart apps. Just some food for thought.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[fyngyrz]

Good thing he's not pushing Judo-Christian mores on you then, right?

Wrong. Buddists don't have a single line in their patter that tells people outside their faith that sex is something to be ashamed of, hidden away, . That's really a Jewish / Christian problem, both the attitude itself, and the attempt to enforce it upon others.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[DaleCooper82]

The last time I looked at the market on 2.2, it showed everything in ~ USD amounts.

Actually no, it shows prices in my local currency, according to current FX rate.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

It is all because his argument isn't about the consumer in actuality, it's about his revenue stream. A guaranteed 30% from every single app sold? Imagine if MS got that for every Windows App?

Imagine if Google got that for every Android App sold on the Android Market. Wait, what?

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[yeshuawatso]

I just hope this trend doesn't continue. Mobile phones are putting Moore's law back into relevance and if Apple becomes the dominant player, then there's going to be a huge shift in the way applications are priced to compensate for refunds (which are all but impossible to get from Apple) and the large chunk that the distributor is skimming off the top. Android makes this a little easier depending on carrier (AT&T being an outlier), but Google is still taking 30% off the top too. The only advantage to Google vs Apple right now is the way Google Checkout pays out so frequently you don't have to worry too much about cash flows. Unlike Apple, you don't have to accumulate $150 in one month and wait another month for the check. You do with the advertising but that's not anything new to those familiar with digital advertising.

My real anticipation is when AMD and nVidia get into the mobile race with GPUs that are smaller, use less electricity, and can produce stunning graphics like we see today. While that dream is a long ways off, one can hope for the day I can carry my phone around, go home and plop it on a base station to charge and get access to more input devices, larger screens, printers, and play a few high quality games while I'm there. I can already do most of those things with my Galaxy S, but HDMI out would be the killer feature for a mobile all in one (yes, I'm aware of the other Android phones with HDMI out but I have T-Mobile). Ahh....one can dream.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[opposabledumbs]

And Apple have come out saying that there will be no silly apps anymore, specifically giving fart apps as an example of said silliness, and the lead approver's panda fart apps remain in the store - I would google for a link, but I'm too lazy.

Which is a handy way of giving him a monopoly on the (apparently important, but who would have guessed it) fart app sector of the app store.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Nick Ives]

Prices in the Android Marketplace are in whatever currency the developer chooses.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[fishexe]

This is America. Pushing Judeo-Christian mores on people is our national pastime.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[minus9]

"Good thing he's not pushing Judo-Christian mores on you then, right?"

Judo-Christian Vs Kung Fu Budhist, but which ones better.
Only one way to find out.... FIGHT!

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[itsphilip]

Jobs also criticized the Android Marketplace, pointing out that there are at least three other app stores being launched by vendors, causing confusion for users and work for developers. "This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers,"

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives. Oh, wait.

I really do like my Apple products, but not for the reasons Jobs pushes; more like in spite of his ideas. I'd love another store, particularly one where Jobs Judeo-Christian mores aren't pushed upon me; or, conversely, if Apple's store stopped insisting that apps have to work they way they think they should, or that apps "can't duplicate functionality." I'm hugely fond my my iPad, but the idea that it would be less useful to me if there were more than one app store available to me... that's just wrong.

Jobs is a Buddhist.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[AmiMoJo]

I'd have said Muslim/Christian. Jews don't seem to be nearly as up-tight about sex, and don't force mental illness inducing celibacy on their priests.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Celibacy is a mental illness? Christians force people to become priests?

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[johny42]

Yes, because people have proven that having more than one drug store, supermarket, or fast food chain inevitably disorients them and fouls up their lives.

Actually, it does. Barry Schwartz on the paradox of choice. However, it also has its advantages, which is the reason we have them anyway.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[AmiMoJo]

Celibacy causes mental illness. Look at the number of priests who become paedophiles. There have been numerous studies on the subject.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[Rakarra]

and don't force mental illness inducing celibacy on their priests.

That's really more of a Catholic thing than a Christian thing. Amazingly unhealthy, but fortunately for them, Western Protestant priests can have as much sex with their wives as they wish (as long as they don't use birth control...)

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[AmiMoJo]

True. I do wonder about Catholics though. Clearly a lot of people knew this stuff was going on but covered it up, and failed to properly punish those responsible. It is usually assumed that they did it to try to shield the Church from bad publicity, but I wonder if sympathy and institutionalised abuse didn't also come into it. It's as if they don't full accept that it is wrong.

Of course Mohammed married and 8 year old, which by our standards makes him a paedophile. How do you condemn something your infallible prophet did?

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[squiggleslash]

Just to point out the obvious: Jobs is not "Judeo-Christian". Nobody is (it's a family of religions, not a religion.) The GP accused the Apple iPhone Store of pushing the Judeo-Christian mores, which is quite a bit different to being of a particular religion. Rather a lot of people who aren't Jewish, Christian, or Muslim (the three major JC religions) are involved in that pushing.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[fyngyrz]

Jews don't seem to be nearly as up-tight about sex

Oh, they're plenty uptight. Ask them about homosexuality; ask them about polyandry and polygyny; ask them about pornography; ask them about personal liberties as opposed to dogmatic requirements. And remember that there are quite a few varieties of Judaism, just as there are of Christianity -- they've all got their hangups.

Muslims are centuries behind Jobs; compared to them, he's open-minded.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[bingoUV]

No, that is because ARSEHOLE is his password. So slashdot makes it * for us but he can see it all right.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[thetoadwarrior]

But if you go into one McDonalds then you've been to all of them really. Even ones in the UK are virtually identical to those in the US. Therefore you can have certain expectations about the McDonalds experience. His point is that with Android that isn't the case. He is right. I really enjoy my Android phone by you can't say they're all equal.

Another bad thing is that companies don't have to give you access to OS upgrades so updating software can be a hit or miss event. I've suffered from this as I think one of my apps killed my OS causing me to have to re-install it. Then I've gone along fine, no problems and a google maps update comes up and now every time I restart my phone google maps crashes and I get a pop-up asking me to close it and I can't use google maps at all.

I never really used it that much so I'm not entirely bothered but that's really shitty that something like that can happen thanks to HTC (or T-mobile perhaps) not wanting to give me OS updates for my G1. That's all it can be because I simply don't install apps since having to reinstall the operating system. I'm just waiting it out for the G2 phone.

But I can certainly see how Android is still a bit shit for the general public. Heck I'm even tempted by the iphone. The only thing that stops me is the strict control over the app store.

Re:Jobs is babbling.

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Links, please?

Re: where every handset works the same

[theaveng]

Alos thought the comparison of Apple to a church was particularly insightful.
(Next I guess I'll be modded troll)

I Am Awash with Confusion

[eldavojohn]

For now, iOS lets me do what I need to do without getting in the way or making me find the right libraries or compile anything.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I have never had to reinstall an app other than during an update for that app. When my DROID updated Android, everything came back up. I have developed Android applications, the SDK is a just a zip that works in Linux, Windows even Mac. And you just unzip it and use the emulator and SDK that comes with it. Awhile ago, I tried to code iPhone apps but given that I don't have a Mac -- no luck!

When I spend time compiling software for the iOS, I want it to do something new and perhaps make some money while doing it.

Wow. Then perhaps you'd like to discuss the fees you had to pay in order to develop something for the iPhone? Are you enrolled in the iOS developer program? I put together the machine I develop on and it was quite inexpensive. And if I wanted to distribute my apps on Android Market I'm not aware of any fee or approval BS that comes with Apple's market. Do some reading:

To run an application on the iPhone, the application needs to be signed. This signed certificate is only granted by Apple after the developer has first developed the software through either the US$99/year Standard package or the US$299/year Enterprise package with the iPhone SDK.

Good luck "making a bit of money" when you're already negative from the get go!

Really, your comment reads like something written by someone who is confusing the customer with the developer and has never tried coding an Android app. You're correct that git and make don't mean anything to a customer but it does if you consider that developers have to embrace the platform before the customer has an apps to use!

Short run: make your money on iPhone. Long run: Android wins out. Trust me on this one.

I can't tell if you're confused or trolling ... I read your blog so I know you're not stupid.

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[BWJones]

Each to their own. All I am saying is that the tweet by Andy was lost on the *vast* proportion of the population that would use a mobile device. I get his point, but usability is going to say an awful lot.

Yeah, I am aware of the fees and we have a little collective that is developing some apps for iOS. We looked at developing for Android and still may, but the platform diversity there will keep us on iOS for a while.

Again, this is not about market share to me... the mobile platform that best suits ones needs will be the one that gets purchased. For me (and a not insignificant number of others judging by the market) that platform is iOS.

And thanks for not thinking I am stupid. :-) At least I hope that I am more smart than stupid on most days so it averages out in the right direction.

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[Captain Spam]

And if I wanted to distribute my apps on Android Market I'm not aware of any fee or approval BS that comes with Apple's market.

If someone wanted to be really, really, really pedantic, there IS the $25 fee to get on the Android Market in general.

Of course, that's once and only once. No recurring fees (certainly not the $100/year Apple's charging) and no approval nonsense (though they do reserve the right to yoink stuff if they see fit). I was actually somewhat giddy with excitement when, as soon as I clicked "Submit" to put my little app on the marketplace, it showed up in a search on my phone immediately.

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[AltairDusk]

Each to their own. All I am saying is that the tweet by Andy was lost on the *vast* proportion of the population that would use a mobile device.

To be fair the definition of open as applies to Android and open source seems to escape a vast proportion of that population too...

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[BWJones]

True...true...

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[Tsiangkun]

I don't subscribe to Andy's tweets. This is true for nearly 100% of people who own a smartphone.

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[node 3]

Excellent rebuttal. After all, why change that winning formula that got you through the third grade?

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[TrancePhreak]

To be fair, a large percentage of those apps on the Apple App Store are duplicates for lite versions, or extra content for other apps, or paid points for things like Mafia Wars. There's also the consideration that any delay in Apple accepting your app can have a large impact on your overall sales.

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[node 3]

To be fair, a large percentage of those apps on the Apple App Store are duplicates for lite versions, or extra content for other apps, or paid points for things like Mafia Wars.

No they aren't. But let's say that's true, and a full 1/3 of apps are like that (an absurdly high ratio), even then there are 200k+ unique apps.

There's also the consideration that any delay in Apple accepting your app can have a large impact on your overall sales.

It's a few days on average. I doubt this is a big issue.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. People here exaggerate Android benefits and iPhone downsides to absurd levels.

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[TrancePhreak]

Sometimes it's a month, or more! I've heard 8 days is typical, but it's easily longer. http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/apple-approves-spotify-app-after-month-delay/
Zynga has 41 apps, 6 of them are real apps, 35 are points. The term "lite" delivers pages and pages of apps (free does too, but that list is less likely to follow the same idea).

Re:I Am Awash with Confusion

[node 3]

Sometimes it's a month, or more! I've heard 8 days is typical, but it's easily longer.

"Sometimes" is a pretty weak foundation to base your argument on. Let's say it's 8 days. In fact, let's say it's two weeks, what the hell. Even two weeks is not some horrible delay. It's definitely not ideal, but it's not going to (in your own words) "have a large impact on your overall sales". It's just another part of the process of selling an app, and it's a hell of a lot faster than more traditional program release cycles which include pressing discs and sending them to stores.

Zynga has 41 apps, 6 of them are real apps, 35 are points.

Do you honestly believe Zynga is typical?

The term "lite" delivers pages and pages of apps (free does too, but that list is less likely to follow the same idea).

Do you know how many "pages and pages" it will take to reach even 1% of all apps? As I already said, even if a full 1/3 of apps are "lite" versions, that's still 200k of non-lite apps. Lite can only really make up 50% tops (it is obviously much less than that), so even 1/3 is an absurdly high number.

The point being that your claim that, well, the App Store really isn't all that big because the number is inflated does not represent reality.

Re:That's fine

[maxwell demon]

I refuse to use Android or iOS.

I didn't think either was an option on your Bakelite rotary dial phone.

That's so typical. Just because you have an older phone, they don't support it.

I've never seen Steve scared before!

[rastoboy29]

Actually I have a high enough opinion of his judgment to now believe that Android is going to take over the world.

Honestly I daresay Android will become the legendary Linux Desktop, one day.

Re:I've never seen Steve scared before!

[Un pobre guey]

Now, now. Go find the little jar of pills and make sure you took this morning's dose. Everything is going to be OK, don't worry.

First they ignore you...

[TuringTest]

Apple oficially ignored Android for some time. Recently they laughed of their fragmentation. Now Apple is attacking Google for its openness.

You know what comes last.

Re:First they ignore you...

[MBGMorden]

With all due respect to Ghandi, that quote always annoyed me. For every 1 person in that quote whose last line was "Then you win" there are 10 more who have to substitute "Then you get your ass kicked".

Re:First they ignore you...

[geekoid]

Ghandi was an idiot.

The very sentence is a logical fallacy because all the other people who got there asses kick get forgotten. It's a sharpshooter fallacy.

Custer ignored the Indians, then laughed at the Indians, then was killed by Indians.

TI's the same type of 'thinking'* that cause people to fall pray to quacks.

*really, a non-rational emotional response, and not thinking at all.

Re:First they ignore you...

[wrook]

As the AC mentioned, getting your ass kicked is the way you win. You allow your adversary to be evil and nasty and horrible to you. You let their free press report about it to the world. Then you let them feel bad about it. Then you win.

It's not even certain that Ghandi made the quote himself. People using it in these circumstances are simply ignorant.

Re:First they ignore you...

[MBGMorden]

Please note that I said whose "LAST LINE". Getting your ass kicked might end up in the sequence of things even when "You win" is the result, but quite often "You get your ass kicked" is the final step. There is no "Then you win" in most cases. It's pretty much the exception to the rule.

Same arguments Bill G@tes used

[stevegee58]

"Having too many choices confuses the consumer"...so just buy our product.

Re:headline FAIL

[ArcherB]

I believe the problem is that he's listing off all the flaws he sees (some of which are considered features by the Android community) in the Android deployment, but he fails to see any failures in his own platform because he does acknowledge them as value added features.

Of course. That problem where you hold the phone wrong... that's a "feature" that allows to swap hands and make the whole, "I'm pulling into a tunnel" lie much more realistic.

Total BS!

[trparky]

Alright Jobs, so if your iPhone is so much better... than why doesn't every carrier have it? Let's be honest with ourselves, Apple chose AT&T which is really as far as the community is concerned, the worst wireless carrier in the history of wireless carriers. The iPhone would be a smash hit if every carrier had it, this includes T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint.

Also, you talk about your App Store being so great and available. What if I want an app that you denied? Oh yeah, I can't. With Android, I would be able to simply go to another marketplace to get it. Simple.

So before you start talking smack, look at yourself and see the flaws in your own setup and fix them first. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Re:Total BS!

[Altus]

Because Verizon would have fucked the iPhone up so badly that nobody would want to buy it. Bluetooth would have been locked down and there would be no way to get any data off your phone.

Do you remember what things were like with these carriers back when the iPhone came out? It took serious clout to get a carrier to not fuck with your phone. Apple traded exclusivity and basically free marketing for the ability to have the iPhone work the way they wanted, including things like visual voicemail. And as a result they had to limit some of the features of the phones. Its the kind of tradeoff that they should not have had to make, but that's the way things were in the mobile market.

They are paying for it now, its unfortunate that the exclusive contract is for such a long time period, but that was the trade off that had to be made to get the iPhone out the door in this country. If they had not made that compromise the iPhone might not have been as successful as it is.

It's really simple

[kellyb9]

Why does Steve Jobs care how Google markets their phone OS? People who don't know the different between closed and open aren't going to care, and people who already do care probably weren't going to buy an iPhone anyway. It's really as simple as that.

Re:It's really simple

[geekoid]

Because if he can use scary words like 'fragmentation' people will get nervous and he can use it as a wedge for his FUD.

Take a look at Republican attack ads for more examples.

Steve Jobs FAIL

[Kludge]

HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. ... Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.

Really Steve? The HTC iPhone works the same as the Motorola iPhone? Idiot.

Developing on Apple's phones does not get your stuff to work on Nokia's phones any more than developing for HTC phones gets your stuff to run on Motorola's phones.
Many people had hoped that Android would make their programs run across platforms, but that has not yet materialized. That certainly does not make it worse than Apple products which will never run cross-platform.

I doubt Google's primary goal is a uniform cross-platform phone experience. Google's primary goal is to get handset manufacturers to use Google's software which will direct to Google's services.

Re:headline FAIL

[IKnwThePiecesFt]

Reading comprehension fail. Or perhaps, a failure on choosing where to inject your opinion in this conversation. You're replying to someone who said Jobs was making a critique, not "lashing out" by saying "I don't agree with Jobs' opinion".

How exactly does that have ANYTHING to do with the parent's post?

Re:headline FAIL

[Tharsman]

You should see him speak at D8 It's not often but he does acknoledge here and there that they have to work harder (in things like wireless syncing.)

Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[NiceGeek]

I'm tired of the constant bitching from people who will never buy an iPhone. There is plenty of competition in the marketplace.
For the record, I'm plenty geeky, I build my own PCs, My netbook runs Ubuntu, but I also don't care about the "openness" of my new iPhone. It does exactly what I need it to do, it runs the apps/games I want, and plays the media I have.

You want an Android? Knock yourself out. I hear it's a decent phone OS as well.

Re:Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[slriv]

Thank you. I keep coming to this, but there are just too many 'I'm pissed because it's cool to be pissed' people on /. and elsewhere. Who gives a damn if you like android or iphone. Being an ardent supporter/thorn to the competition, gets you NOTHING in return. How about this. Let's all just quit worrying about which platform we want to work with and just do some work. I work on what I'm paid to work on, and leave it at that. I take care to know about other platforms, but until I see $'s, I'm not going to be a supporter of anything.

Re:Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[geekoid]

Android is a better OS, actually.

You like your phone and being told what you are allowed to do, fine. Stop being condescending about it.

How do tyou know your phone does exactly what you want it to if you don't have the option of doing something different with it?

Nothing you list indicates any level of geekness. It does have the stank of wanna' be. But it's a short list, so maybe you left something off

Re:Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[David Jao]

I'm tired of the constant bitching from people who will never buy an iPhone. There is plenty of competition in the marketplace.

That's all well and good. Now, if Steve Jobs would follow your same advice, then I would be happy to follow it as well.

But Steve Jobs is clearly on the offensive. He will never buy an Android. Yet, this whole post is about Jobs bitching about Android. He should stop bitching about Android, and let marketplace competition take its course. I have absolutely no doubt that the free market, left to its own devices, will make the right decision between the two platforms.

As long as the other side is waging a marketing war, it's a little disingenuous to claim that we can't.

Re:Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[NiceGeek]

Oh no, I'm not geeky enough for you, how ever will I survive?

Re:Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[AltairDusk]

For the record not all the complaints are baseless. I for one only started complaining about things that really drove me nuts when I had an iPhone, things that ultimately drove me away from the platform. The real annoyance for me was that Apple easily could have solved most of them were they not so damn draconian about the platform.

Re:Don't like the iPhone? Don't buy one

[NiceGeek]

Yes it can, I certainly don't have a problem doing do.

Steve says "Don't Panic!"

[Taulin]

Wow, sounds similar to Nintendo's stance when Sony came out with the Playstation. Nintendo has a very tough hoop to jump through to get a game on their systems, while Sony has a pretty cheap license. Nintendo was first, and had a tight grip on the market until Sony's loose market PS came into town and dominated. The iPhone is like Nintendo in this sense; first of the new breed, and widely accepted. However, Android is quickly becoming a real threat to the market dominance that iPhone has.

Re:Steve says "Don't Panic!"

[indiechild]

That's a curious example, seeing as how Nintendo's Wii has stomped all over the competition. Nintendo has some interesting parallels to Apple.

Statistics and Spin

[tuppe666]

I love this story. It puts together all the Apple Spin in one place.

SALES SPIN
iOS(iPad+iTouch+iPhone)>Android Phones
iPhone>Any single Android Phone
Android Phones>iPhone

DEVELOPMENT SPIN
Intergrated(sic) means easier development maybe
Fragmented means greater choice(Superior Hardware, cheaper hardware)

INTERFACE/APPS
Apple interface/Shops vs Google Marketplace interface/Apps + Phone Manufacturer/Phone Supplier interface tweaks + Apps/Content errm fight!!

You can pick your sides with this numbers game. Although consumers / phone manufactures / network providers get better value from the Android platform. Android is taking the smartphoneplatform by ever increasing numbers over the iPhone. As for the whole lets add iOS devices together nonsense judging by how quickly Android has taken over the phone market, I can only see the same thing happening with tablets / mp3 players / kettles etc. and Android still expanding in the Phone Market

To be fair the only thing interesting here apart from it coming from the spin coming the horses mouth is Windows Phone 7 wasn't mentioned an awful lot.

Re:God, Just Shut The Fuck Up

[tophermeyer]

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.

LOL

[MBGMorden]

So he's complaining that Google isn't focusing on the particular issue they want to?

This sounds about like Hyundai complaining that BMW isn't focusing on cost in their advertising.

He's scared and has resorted to word association.

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

He's scared of Android.

He's scared of open platforms.

His choice of words "fragmented" and "Integrated" are cleverly chosen word associations that he hopes sway you.

Funny that he took the complete opposite stance on Flash. He claimed it was "Closed" and dead... and would not be allowed on the iPhone... which here he admits is closed itself... or in his clever wording "Integrated".

Jobs... You're a businessman.... but your not honest.

Fragmentation a.k.a Competition

[w0mprat]

Fragmentation is monopolian/FUDanese for competition, choice. Because Android is seeing explosive growth and widespread adoption, plenty of choice, and so far no hard data showing a few problems, despite trolling from Jobs and his reality distortion blogosphere.

I wonder if Android Market was almost intentionally crappy, to allow alternative app stores. So far I've been quite impressed with the alternative offerings, and I'm damn thankful one company does not control the sole means of personalising my 'droid.

HTC's Sense and Motorola's MotoBlur are really superficial skins and have been mischaracterised has some kind of OS re-write. Although they are a bit more than just a custom home screen application (for example I use an app called ADW Launcher instead of default), the underpinnings of Android aren't really heavily modified.

Re:Fragmentation a.k.a Competition

[RyuuzakiTetsuya]

HTC's Sense and Motorola's MotoBlur are really superficial skins and have been mischaracterised has some kind of OS re-write.

something Steve and Apple fanboys understand that Google and it's fanboys fail to understand is that to users, the interface IS the OS.

A person isn't more than their personality but that's what we judge them for.

Parallells to a totalitarian society

[fluor2]

Where one company controls all information and apps.

I find it funny that Apple-products somehow always end up in business-districts like Wall-Street, whilst all the people there really wants as low tax and full freedom. Obviously they have a secret lust for the opposite.

Re:Parallells to a totalitarian society

[Xtifr]

Indeed, Jobs is obviously right. When people in a western-style democracy have a choice of candidates, "[t]he user's left to figure it out" and can easily become confused. Soviet-style totalitarianism where the people have the "freedom" to vote for the one-and-only candidate on the ballot is clearly preferable.

I think the difference is...

[roc97007]

I think the real difference is "just work" vs "just work the way I want it to". There is certainly a market for "just work". There are enough people willing to conform their work habits to a device's paradigm to make a device manufacturer a very good living. Apple was successful at this, Microsoft less so, because Apple has an interface that's useful and intuitive and people enjoyed using the device. And Windows Mobile... well, that's a different article.

Jobs seems to have drawn the wrong conclusion from this -- that the primary success of the iphone is because every device works the same. The obvious argument to this is that I don't use every device, I only use the device I own, and it works the same every day. The real success of the iphone is that it provides a better experience. And it truly does. I'm surprised that Jobs appears to have forgotten this.

Android also provides a better experience, with the added wrinkle that you can choose the experience you want by choosing a different device and/or customizing the device you have. To people who want to bend a device to their workflow, instead of bending their workflow to a device, this has considerable appeal.

I think what Apple is missing out on is the customizable aspect of personal devices. And before you say it, this is not a nerd only thing. My 16 year old daughter reports that android is becoming more popular with her circle of friends partly because they *are* different (or can be made different) instead of everything having the exact same device with the exact same interface running the exact same apps. (Daughter turned down the iPhone for a Galaxy S and hasn't touched her iPod Touch since she got it.)

Jobs can continue to rant about conformity, fanbois and people who genuinely want a device that "just works" will continue to buy his devices, and he'll do really well. For the rest of us, there's Android.

But.... Listening to Jobs rave about everyone using exactly the same device, I can't help but flash back to that original Mac commercial in 1984. Walt Kelly was right.

Re:I think the difference is...

[Comen]

To me this all seems like exactly how MacOS got killed my MS back in the day, sure MS was not open source, but Apple had a jump start and a advantage, and let it slip away because they refused to not lock down the hardware that the system ran on, keeping it very expensive.
Mac users always said the same thing as now, it's a better user experience and it just works, but lots of people wanted to be able to use more hardware options and build it cheaper, there was much more software written for the PC back in the day, little tiny apps like on tucows was fun to just try stuff out.

As soon as Android is even close to the iPhone, lots of people will jump ship, because it's cheaper and offers much more options of hardware, just the fact you can put a SD card in it and expand the storage on the Android is a huge plus, and is a big tell that Apple is just crazy when it comes to control of this device.

It seems like Apple has always wanted to much control of things, and always told the consumer it was in their best interest, why would they think it will work out better for them this time?
Apple right now has a better user experience, and I just bought a iPad that I really love, but apps crash all the time on it too, I own 2 other iPods and have always loved them for taking 60 gigs of music with me everywhere etc... But I am sure that once a GOOD well done tablet running Android comes out, my next tablet will not be from Apple, I would love to be able to put more storage in this thing, I bought the 64gig version just because of that.
One thing I love about the iPad that people don't make enough noise about is that even if you make the same user experience as the iPad on another tablet, the battery on this thing is unbeatable from anything else I have seen, I get about 10 hours of watching video the whole time, it lasts all day pretty easily even with heavy use! but Android will caught up and offer me more options eventually, I have already been looking for a app that does a certain thing I need, like hide a app from view or something, and can only find the apps if I jail break my Ipad, well I don't want to do that, but seems strange that Apple would not allow a app that does this on their store in the first place, what do they care if I want to hide a app from people I let play with the thing? they do seem to want to control the store way too much.

Re:I think the difference is...

[roc97007]

Android tablets already give you something significant that the ipad lacks -- the ability to change batteries in flight.

Re:I think the difference is...

[Comen]

I understand that, but its nice that when they say the battery lasts 10 hours it really does, I am very used to most things saying it lasts 5 hours and that means when you are not doing anything with it really, you actually want to watch a full movie and it only lasts 2 hours or something.
Think it was the Android Samsung tablet (cant remember) that said it could do atleast 7 hours, but I would like to see a real world test, then they will say well it last 7 hours if you are only reading a book with no speakers in use or something.
I recently also bought a Logitech Ipod Dock that really does sound very good and has a recharable battery, it said it would last 7 hours, I get about 2 hours out of it when I am blasting it pretty loud, but I am sure they mean 7 hours if you have it at a low volume or something.

I am no Apple fanboy and I understand that most people who buy a 830$ device like this will always justify it somehow to themselves and others, but when I bought this thing it was because I had bought a new ipod touch and found myself playing with the internet features and games allot, I had a PSP just for mobile games and it sucked I never played it. So I took the Ipad touch back and upgraded to the iPad, I use it tons for just reading news sites like this one, while not being attached to my desk all the time and books and magazines will be nice.

Because my mobile phone is paid for by my employer (Blackberry) I really did not want another phone and phone number to mess with, this iPad kinda filled a gap I had were I did not get to play with a nice phone, even my wife has a Android I bought her and loves it.

I really was surpised the battery on this thing does so well though, I have like 15 movies on it, and netflix and can stream a full movie on it and the battery goes from 100% to like 85%, I am used to things never actually working as advertised and I have to give Apple props here because I did not really expect that when I bought it.

I am sure my next tablet will be a Andriod, I tend to like things I can mess with myself, always built my own PC's and never liked Mac computers much really, fact that Apple did not add a SD Card slot to the iPad should be a crime in my eyes, but the more I played with this thing the more I forgot about it, I am sure it will piss me off more when 64gig gets smaller and smaller as things go on (already filled it up day one with movies and music), and you can't just stick a SD Card in the damn thing.

I figured that buying a first gen iPad will be fine, and i will just wait and let the new Android tablets battle over what will be best hardware for awhile anyway it will take them some time to get good apps and everythnig worked out on the new Android tablets I would assume.

Re:I think the difference is...

[roc97007]

> I figured that buying a first gen iPad will be fine, and i will just wait and let the new Android tablets battle over what will be best hardware for awhile anyway it will take them some time to get good apps and everythnig worked out on the new Android tablets I would assume.

This is a very logical approach. Instead of waiting for the perfect device, use the devices that are available for what they can do until something better comes out.

Not to make light of the battery life -- that the ipad actually meets its spec for battery life under real use conditions is rare and commendable.

Personally, I didn't need a pad bad enough to buy an ipad. I can see where they would be handy, but the cost/benefit analysis came up short. I'm currently carrying a droid x, which has a big enough screen to make remote administration barely practical. By my calculations, a 7 inch screen would be close to the perfect balance between the ability to get work done, and the likelihood that I'd have it on me. Away from home and office, the best computer is the one within arm's reach.

Moreover, I tend to keep devices for a long time, and I suspect the lack of (a) replaceable battery, (b) sd card slot, and (c) flash support would grate on me, as all of these were deal breakers for the iphone. I'd rather just wait for a device to become available that meets my requirements, rather than bend my requirements to whatever Apple is shipping. I know this infuriates fanbois, and I'm sorry I can't do much about that.

Re:The reply is beautiful

[statusbar]

Okay, I'd like to get involved in writing kernel drivers for Android. Once I do the above command line and want to do "make install"... Which on of the following products should I get to install it into?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_devices

Which ones will allow me to download a new kernel? What is the best device to get for development?

--jeffk++

2 main problems with iOS

[carrett]

I think most people would agree that iOS is a more polished, reliable product than Android. The main problems with iOS, AFAICT, are:

-AppStore restrictions. It's fine to not accept apps that don't work, but I think the precedent set by rejecting the official Google Voice app is what's really bothering people. And lord knows we'll never see Flash, even when the devices become more than capable. I only hope that we'll get Google Maps Navigation one day, though that could be Google's withholding instead of Apple's
-AT&T. Seriously.

Basically, the restrictions that stifle what we can do with the device and OS for no sound technical reason.

Re:2 main problems with iOS

[sockman]

But one of Apple's advertisements was "you can talk AND look at data at the same time!!!" and switching to Verizon will prevent such glorious behavior.

Spewing randomness - dfsjdfk;ldsjf;dsl;

[Andy Dodd]

Anyone who uses PlaysForSure as an example of an "Open" technology is spewing random bullshit with NOTHING to back it up... I'll get more information from fldksjc;jlssdljl than such random baseless claims.

PlaysForSure failed because it was a fundamentally closed technology, designed with the express purpose of closing down the devices it was installed on. Being closed doesn't work unless you have major market share (which Apple does in the music realm.)

Re:God, Just Shut The Fuck Up

[Stregano]

LOL, nice. I need mod points to hook you up

every iphone is not the same

[tnerb123]

If Steve Jobs thinks every Iphone is the same then he needs to get his head on straight. The 3g does not have multitasking which makes the experience from someone using a 3g compared to a 3gs or 4 totally different. And dont forget there are other app stores for the iPhone as well. So if this post is correct, Jobs is not!

He never does this

[C_Kode]

Jobs never does stuff like this. He is very worried. He must have gotten a peak the latest Android growth figures. It's not slowing or even staying the same, it's exploding at a rate Apple can't match on several fronts. Manufacturing alone has to be the biggest worry. They just can't match the output of HTC, Samsung, and Motorola who are all spitting them out as fast as they can. That doesn't even scratch the surface. With all these smartphones coming out, you are going to be able to buy them for next to nothing or even get them free. Apple doesn't want any part of that, but it's coming.

Re:He never does this

[kaiser423]

Not to mention that people like Samsung make a lot of the ultra-high end items that he puts in his phone. This isn't going to happen anymore. Reports were that the iPhone 4 was going to have Samsung's Super AMOLED display that is just "magical" in daylight situations and in battery life. But Samsung wouldn't grant them an exclusive license, because they wanted to use it also, so they went out, partnered with a display company and come up with a different display tech that he could tout as "magical".

He's scared, because regardless of how big he is, Samsung, Motorola, and other manufacturers that also produce components aren't going to give him exclusive rights, and it's going to be much, much harder in the future to come out with differentiating hardware in the future. Even their current display provider is looking for ways out so that they can supply Android devices also. He's not the king of the castle that can lock up hardware manufacturers anymore.

Jobs made the right decision with the display since Samsung later left HTC high and dry with the display's when their Galaxy S line took off, and they gobbled up all of their own displays before shipping more to HTC.

Re:He never does this

[Rich0]

Sure, but if Apple wants to have more than 20% market share they're going to have to figure out how to compete against that. You could argue that it is easy for Walmart to be the most popular store in the USA when their prices are 30% less than everybody else's, but after all, that's their business model.

The original Mac got clobbered because it was Apple vs the world, and the world won (Apple's ability to even stick around is an accomplishment when you think about it). This is just more of the same. I don't think the iPhone is going to die, but they'll end up with market shares similar to what Macs face on the desktop.

Re:He never does this

[indiechild]

He's not worried -- Jobs doesn't worry, he just makes plans to further dominate. Sure, he sees Android as a potent threat, but he's got the situation well under control.

Apple doesn't want any part of a race to the bottom, and Apple will stay and continue to be successful within their profitable sector. I think it's pointless for anyone (Jobs included) to compare iPhone vs. Android figures -- iPhone will always have a lower total share of the market, but Apple will still dominate the profits. It'll be like the Mac vs. the rest of the personal computing industry.

Re:He never does this

[indiechild]

I think you'll probably end up being right, and Apple will still be very profitable even with a small share of the total market.

Re:He never does this

[indiechild]

Interesting take, but I don't think differentiating hardware is really a big thing on the iPhone anyway -- if anything, Apple devices often have less features. Apple took the lead with the Retina Display for now, but the others will soon catch up.

Re:He never does this

[Rich0]

The market is big. You can make money being Nordstrom or by being Walmart. Either way nobody is guaranteed a place at the top - constant innovation is required. The nature of that innovation will of course be different depending on where in the market you want to be.

Re:Steve is right

[Anonymous Coward]

In the future things that you consider "nerd only" will be normal and mainstream. Technology changes culture.

The 1984 Apple Commercial is appropriate....

[OldHawk777]

I wonder is google planning a remake of the "1984" commercial?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4431023771693015128

Does anyone think Jobs and Gates have a megalomaniac character flaw.

This is too damn funny.

I recommend Apple does like other companies... spend money on politics until the laws are written that redress this gross inequity. Jobs should contact Karl Rove to get elected to the republican puppet-POTUS office.

Thanks for the endless chuckles Stevie.

Re:God, Just Shut The Fuck Up

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't install it on most of the actual hardware out there because they won't run your unsigned OS image.

You can shut the fuck up now, dimwit.

Translation from The Reality NonDistortion Field.

[mbkennel]

"Today, we celebrate the fourth glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created for the first time in all telecommunication history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each developer may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of iThoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or Android army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!"

Please Close

[albiorixza]

The only thing that's open about Apple is Steve Jobs's mouth...to be perfectly honest, I'd prefer "closed" in this particular case :)

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer

[fyoder]

Because as Rumsfeld so sagely noted, "democracy is messy". Lets hope Jobs never runs for office and tries to set up iGovernment.

A history of Jobs head lines...

[interval1066]

• "Jobs Lashes Out at IBM"
• "Jobs Lashes Out at Microsoft"
• "Jobs Lashes Out at 3-Com (later Palm)"
• "Jobs Lashes Out at the Newton"
• "Jobs Lashes Out at the Beatles"
• "Jobs Lashes Out at Netbooks"
• "Jobs Lashes Out at God"

I'm sure I've missed a few. He does make headlines, and that's what the fanboys love.

Uhh.. guys?

[iONiUM]

This is an odd argument. Isn't Mac OSX based on some *NIX, and don't they tout the "openness" of it? Wasn't this a huge argument against windows, back when windows had a death grip on the desktop market? Funny how Apple had such a big problem with Microsoft when they "integrated" IE/Media Player/etc into their OS, yet they just do the same thing themselves.

What the hell is going on here. Is Steve Jobs just saying anything to sell more devices? I'm so confused.

Everything he said...

[Slash.Poop]

...screams "closed"

Re:Confusion

[IKnwThePiecesFt]

Strawman.

To make your argument more accurate, one would have to say that at the Android shoe marketplace, that some shoes only work with some pair of socks and there's really no way to know which future models of socks with work with which Android shoes, but all the Apple socks work with all the Apple shoes. Granted, it means you're using Apple socks and shoes, but for most people (not everyone, obviously) those are just fine and that's the trade off.

Even still that's a terrible analogy, but it's a lot better than your terrible analogy.

Yuo mean like

[geekoid]

putting an OS on top of BSD? Is that bad fragmentation slicko?

Clearly, Jobs is concerned with android.

Christ

[papasui]

You people act like a cell phone is a religion. Just substitute Christianity/Judaism/Islam in for Iphone/Android/Blackberry (In whatever order you want).

People Are Forgetting One Important Thing...

[pandrijeczko]

...if Jobs slagged off Android then it's because it's hurting his profits & walled garden. And that, my friends, is a *GOOD* thing.

Re:People Are Forgetting One Important Thing...

[pandrijeczko]

Without Android, they would have posted more profits.

Re:That's fine

[DriedClexler]

It supports voicechat though!

How about device support?

[DShard]

While android *might* be fragmented, Apples own IOS updates proceeds to make my 2nd gen iPod touch into a flakier piece of shit with every release. If anything has convinced me to find alternatives to apples products, it is my own experience with their user hostile decisions.

Translation:

[twistedsymphony]

"How dare Google compare our products based on factors that make theirs look superior! We think that they should compare our products only on factors that we think make ours look superior!"

Choice Jobs....

[Is0m0rph]

That's what I have with Android... Choices. Choice of phone maker, choice of price, choice of carrier, choice to run software not on the market, etc. etc. etc.

Video of Jobs' comments

[roystgnr]

Can be found here. Shame about that heckler with the hammer.

So what if Android is fragmented

[Dracos]

That's part of being open. Granted, Google has allowed the fragmentation to become excessive, but that's beside your ill-reasoned point, Steve.

Re:So what if Android is fragmented

[exomondo]

Google is open? Where can I download the source for big table?

Google != Android, you would think that would be obvious but I guess some people just aren't capable of understanding that.

Re:headline FAIL

[ceoyoyo]

If "we believe our product is better because..." is lashing out, the Internet really isn't the place it used to be.

Careful

[WillyWanker]

Careful Stevie J, your crazy is showing.

he's scared

[metageek]

and I think this has something to do with the surge in Android Ad profits of Google, some even say that Android has become Apple's night terror

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[account_deleted]

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I stopped listening when Jobs mentioned Windows

[microbee]

..as an "open" platform. Thanks Steve for the laugh!

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[account_deleted]

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Here's my problem with TFS.

[icannotthinkofaname]

When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time.

That's nice, Jobs. Let me know the instant you've made that philosophy work in the Mac vs. PC debate, and then I might pretend to take your argument seriously.

PC: Windows NT microkernel with hardware drivers from any number of manufacturers. Sounds fragmented to me!
Mac: The hardware is practically part of the OS. It's all nice and integrated. How much desktop market do you control, again?

Steve Jobs can seriously enter the debates on hardware-software manufacturing paradigms as soon as his philosophy looks viable.

I run and build anything I want on my iPhone

[codepunk]

It is pleny open enough for me I open x-code write some code compile it and install it on my phone. I can run anything at all I please on it, of course I spent a whole 100 bucks on the dev license to do so.

Yep. Apple's products Just work.

[wizkid]

So what about antennagate
And now there's Glassgate

Of course, I was running Droid 2.2 2 weeks before Verizon released it. Can you Run the latest IOS before Apple releases it? What happens when a bug is found? In Android, a fix is found and published right way. You get it from apple when you get it.

Run Stevie Run (Runneth over with the Mouth that is)

Stevie is just a scaredy-pants! Droid's gonna eat your lunch :)

Re:Which is better than

[BJ_Covert_Action]

Classifying the Zen of Apple as way better is merely a subjective judgment. Personally, I prefer to hack everything together because I learn more and can troubleshoot the system myself when it breaks down I call that the "Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance." There is even a book about it.

Well duh.

[vegiVamp]

Steve Jobs does not agree that Android might be better than iOS. Film at eleven.

"not-as-good-as-we-thought"?

[Brannon]

First ever $20 billion quarter for Apple. Are you nuts?

Negative press is still press

[ProppaT]

This continuing feud between Apple and Google does nothing but advertise their product and, in essence, works to even further lock out competition. It's really a shame, when it comes down to it.

If you really want to support the only mobile OS that comes close to being open, buy a Palm Pre or the new Pre 2 coming out. The OS is fantastic and Palm has purposely left a backdoor in the system. You download tons of customizations and alter the OS to your liking. Palm doesn't purposely brick "jailbroken" phones, they embrace the patch community and have actively hired talented homebrew programmers and patch creators. It's a nice breath of fresh air, if you ask me and, IMO, the stock WebOS software (despite its flaws) is the best mobile OS on the market. You truly don't see how beautifully designed it is until you've lived with one for a month. It just works and makes sense.

Re:Confusion

[Un pobre guey]

It is a flawed analogy, but not a straw man. All socks and stockings do not work with all shoes. Even as you wrote your post, you either forgot about that or didn't think much about it. What woman would wear thick wool hiking socks with her 4 inch heels? Do they wear nylons with flip-flops?

Regarding cell phones, there has always been huge diversity in their UIs. This is neither new nor particularly interesting. If anything, even a fragmented Android brings a significant amount of order to the scene. Apple has a certain horse that it dutifully flogs, sameness, because it works both for them and for their fans. Yeah, cool, great, whatever. Not everybody is interested. If you like it, great! Buy an iPhone. I don't care. Just don't badger me with the claim that sameness is good and everything else is bad. Diversity and even chaotic variety don't bother me at all. I actually like them. A lot.

Plus +++

[PortHaven]

Yup....

Steve Jobs is sucking too much mirror these days. iTunes synching experience = nightmare, nightmare, nightmare.

Add in the 50 dropped calls I had this past week. And the result is my iPhone is barely working as a phone.

Re:Which is better than

[AltairDusk]

The first time I flashed Cyanogen mod it took me less than 15 minutes and one cable that came with the phone, now there are guides available that will take even less time. The first time I jailbroke my iPhone took me longer than that so forgive me if I fail to see your point here.

In addition, many of the things I jailbroke the iPhone to be able to do I was able to do out of the box with Android.

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[UnknowingFool]

He's scared of open platforms.

You do realize that Apple releases Darwin OS right? OS X is Darwin + Aqua + Apple libraries. Darwin is based on NeXT BSD. Under the terms of BSD licensing, Apple has no obligation to release anything. BSD license is far more open than GPL.

Also Apple uses/contributes a great deal to open source software. They own CUPS and release it under the GPL. They forked KHTML and released it as WebKit. They've released Grand Central Dispatch and Bonjour under Apache licenses.

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[account_deleted]

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not different at all

[t2t10]

No, those phones are not very different. They have a different home screen, some different theming, some additional apps, and a slightly different form factor. Once you start an app, they look and work the same way. And if you like, you can install a standard home screen on all of them.

And whaddayaknow, a lot of the customizations actually are nice differentiators without harming or limiting users. If you like Swype and big screens, buy a Samsung. HTC has a nice set of pre-installed widgets and some nice theming, so get those if that's what you like. And S/E did a good job on tiny Android phones. And yet, all of them can be configured to look and work like any of the others.

It's really the best of both worlds: people who don't want to fiddle buy the phone that has the defaults they like, and people who do know how to configure these things can buy any phone just based on specs, price, and hardware.

Dear Steve,

[Weezul]

I don't think the word "integrated" means quite what you think it means. Yes, Android may be fragments but the iPhone is not integrated. Isn't not integrating half the meaning of "there's an app for that"?

Both SIP & Skype audio & video are actually integrated into Maemo/MeeGo, along with ALL other IM protocols.

Re:Which is better than

[AusIV]

That's crap.

If you buy an Android phone you get a good, straightforward user experience without having to do any kind of hacking on it. You have an easy to use app market with lots of apps which is loosely monitored to make sure it doesn't have malware (without having draconian yet poorly defined rules about what's acceptable and what's not). It comes with some apps that almost everyone is going to want, and has a simple mechanism for finding more apps to fit your needs. The experience you get with an out of the box Android phone is similar to what you get with an out of the box iPhone.

If you're happy with that experience, you're in good shape. There's nothing else you need to do. With iOS, if you're unhappy with that experience you're pretty much out of luck. With Android, the operating system will step out of your way. You have the opportunity to screw things up, but you also have the ability to do things the phone manufacturer never imagined (or perhaps, doesn't approve of).

I don't buy the argument that additional freedom is a bad thing.

Yea Like Leaving AT&T

[Timmy D Programmer]

That's what I like about Androids, you aren't stuck with one of the crappiest carriers in the US.

Afraid of the Droid?

[profundus]

This just goes to show despite showering all sorts of contempt at Google's Pr0n friendly pedestrian fragmented operating system, Mr. Jobs is actually concerned about it posing a credible threat to the supposedly divine, pure, family friendly, idiot proof iPhone.

Mr. Jobs I don't want you telling me what to do with the device I've already paid for. It's mine now. Please let me do what I want to with it.

control freak

[cheap.computer]

apple is a design company and not an engineering company, jobs is a minimalist his philosophy has been think of what you don't do and not what you can do. That is why their OS did not even have multi-tasking, average joe does not care if your OS can multi task, but he need to be able to make phone calls and check his email, and play casual games. That said, I think jobs should find real reasons if he claims that his product is better. No doubt apple product looks "prettier" than any andriod product out there, he should have just said, we make pretty phones and your phones are just too damn ugly. I could probably agree with that.

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OMFG

[r0b!n]

It takes me a whole 5 minutes to learn the difference between stock Android interface and HTC Sense. My brain is fried.

The software is open. The hardware may not be.

[jjo]

While it would be nice to have a phone on which to load your personal Andriod build, the fact that you don't is not an indication that Android is not open.

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Mr. Gates, I Sincerely Apologize

[Isochrome]

OK, I was a Mac developer for ten years or so and I completely bought into the "Microsoft is Evil" bandwagon. But I have to say, boy was I ever wrong. First, companies like Blackwell and Haliburton showed us what evil really is. Then Mr. Jobs shows us that while Apple was a great and brilliant underdog, they are absolutely atrocious market leaders.

As much as I loathed Microsoft, they always competed on pure technical innovation, not on lawyers. First Apple sued Microsoft and now they are suing HTC. The patents are questionable and the new lawsuit won't protect iPhones any more than the old one did Macs. But the suit is classic FUD. Accept when Steve says it he is a true believer.

Just to spell it out, Open means you can run Flash on it. Open means you can have a keyboard if you want. Open means you can use a different carrier if you want. Open means you can have tethering and real multitasking if you want. Open means you can compile it yourself.

Remember the old toaster Mac? How can he keep making the same mistakes over and over. No user exapandibility doesn't make a better user experience. No true multi-tasking also doesn't improve the use experience. Being locked into AT&T doesn't improve the user experience. Not being able to use it in South America doesn't improve the user experience.

I'm not too big to admit I was wrong. Mr. Gates, and all of Microsoft, I apologize.

Re:Mr. Gates, I Sincerely Apologize

[Radical Moderate]

"As much as I loathed Microsoft, they always competed on pure technical innovation, not on lawyers."

Oh come now, pure technical innovation? Let's not forget FUD and leveraging dominance in one market to squeeze out competitors in another...remember Netscape? That said, Apple is hardly lily-white in its business practices.

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Wait...every time?

[fudoniten]

"When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time."

Yeah, just look at how well it worked for your personal computers...

Does anybody else notice all sorts of parallels between Apple vs. Google + Linux today, and Apple vs. IBM + Microsoft in the 80s and 90s? Including the hubris?

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Think of NORMAL customers, not geeks...

[beh]

For me as a 'geek', I have no problem with even a dozen app stores, different styles of the same user interface, ...

For NORMAL, everyday users - the 90+% of people that aren't working in IT, there IS an advantage in integration, of having only ONE appstore which is neatly integrated into the device, ...

Last weekend was the first time my mother has held an iPad - and she got a lot of things after me showing her the basic gestures (tapping, sliding the finger over the screen, and pinching) and she could navigate her way through the device very easily.

On the normal PC, I don't know how often I had to tell her of how to even open the chat window in Skype, how to copy links, ...

That said - the iPhone/iPad is still not 'perfect' either (iBooks alone has a number of stupid little quirks).
On the other hand, I've seen some workmates wait for Android, and then switch to an iPhone within months of having had their Android phones. There might be people switching in the opposite direction - I just don't know any in our work environment (an otherwise completely non-Apple outfit).

Re:That's fine

[grumpyman]

Not unless you jailbreak it.

Re:Okay

[statusbar]

Oh I thought we were talking about phones here. Android phones vs iphone.

--jeffk=+

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[tnk1]

Nothing I have seen about Jobs leads me to believe that he's "scared" of Android. Steve Jobs simply has a very strong negative opinion of anything where the design of the experience is not carefully crafted and controlled.

Steve Jobs truly believes that control over a design and the utilization of the devices that he creates is a benefit. He's not afraid that you can't do many things with the iPhone that you can do with Android, he doesn't *want* you to be able to do anything. He is interested in making sure that the design of the platform is consistent and uniform with features being rolled out only after they conform to the design, rather than the design to the features. To him, the overall experience is the most important thing, even if it disables some potential features.

What is the problem with Flash? Flash allows third party apps where the iPhone experience does not have to be conformed to. That's reason enough for Steve Jobs to kill it.

Android is just fine, but Jobs' point (agree with it or not), is that Android is fine and all, but its experience is not controlled, and without that control, the consumer market will find itself having a lot more trouble with Android phones, if not now, then in the long term. This may sound like fear or petty bashing to people who like Android, but its neither. Jobs has always believed that his way provides more benefit to the users he wants to target. This may well be arrogance on his part, but nothing he has said leads me to believe that his language is due to anything but his desire to explain to people why he designs and controls the devices in the way he does.

While I think he's perfectly happy with the high sales of the iPhone, and certainly does not want to lose sales to Android phones, this talk is just classic Steve Jobs being Steve Jobs, not Steve Jobs playing scared CEO.

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

Yes.. I'm fully aware of Apple's selective support of open software solutions.

Apple supports it when it benefits Apple.

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

so, your point is Steve Jobs is a very controlling egotistical man that runs his company and controls his users like a dictator.

Nothing new...

Re:Au Contraire

[chipperdog]

Agree totally...I tried to transfer (via ftp) an mp3 file (a personal recording, not a copyrighted recording), from my android to my son's ipod touch, and the only thing the ipod touch can do with it is play it from the ftp stream, one can't save it in the file system or add it to the playlists without firing up the bloated itunes (also no wireless sync in the 3rd gen ipod touch) - a big turnoff to me. I can download media files onto the android device and add them to playlists immediately - no need to find a fat client (win or OS x - no linux application available), fire up a bloated app, find the non standard USB interface cable, acknowledge the new TOS for the itunes store, wait for the backup sync to finish, add the file to the itunes library, resync, acknowledge that some files have moved or disappeared - and they will no longer be available on the portable device, start the sync (which takes many minutes on a larger device)

Of course the iOS experience is all the same...

[TavisJohn]

Because only ONE COMPANY IS MAKING THEM!!!!

Of course companies are going to customize the user experience of their device. But the same software runs on all handsets.

Since when does the iPhone work?

[random_guy666]

"Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same." Funny, I've heard that the iPhone doesn't work.

You're a businessman.... but you're not honest

[jaypaulw]

I found a grammar error, free mod points?

Re:You're a businessman.... but you're not honest

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

+1 for spell checking... but -1 for being that guy... ;)

Re:Also, try Yahoo!

[eparker05]

People knock android for requiring a Google account, but I would argue that it doesn't: you can install the yahoo mobile app which also does email and contact synchronization.

Note that my statement assumes you are not on at&t which blocks 3rd party apps thus requires a google log-in to get the Yahoo app. A cool thing about Amazon coming out with an app store soon is that it will become an option to purchase an Android phone even on a carrier like AT&T and avoid all ties to google.

I like Google but I can see why some people want to stay out of their databases, a 'fragmented' android is a free android. Steve Jobs and his iJail army will never have that advantage.

Fragmentation...

[Savage-Rabbit]

Honestly, most of the "problems" with Android I actually consider to be strengths. Now the "fragmented" argument, yes, I can see where that can hurt in the long run, but then again, PC's are quite fragmented yet which has a larger hold after all these years, Apple or PC?

PC fragmentation is in hardware, Android fragmentation is in Software, the OS it self. The dominant PC OS is Windows which, what ever else you can say about Microsoft, does an amazing job at providing a consistent (and IMHO crappy, but still consistent) software user experience across an amazing and bewildering array of often depressingly low quality PC hardware. Stability sometimes suffers mostly due to crappy hardware but the consistency of the user experience is the same. MS has also done a fairly decent job at backwards compatibility for software. It's not like the PC's from Lenovo ship with a different Desktop environment than the ones from Dell, Dell is dragging its feet releasing Service Pack X for their custom version of Windows with the result that you can't run half the apps you bought for use on your Lenovo computer on your new Dell and when Dell finally does release the update you are still shit out of luck because they changed the OS in some idiosyncratic way and some of the app developers don't support the Dell variant of Windows. Steve Jobs may be an arrogant prick sometimes but he has a point. Fragmentation is already happening and it will hurt Android in the long run if Google isn't very careful about keeping compatibility issues under control

Hrmmm...

[Red_Chaos1]

What Steve says: 'Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.'

What Steve means: Android gives manufacturers and users the choice to change the UI to better suit their own experience, instead of forcing the users to do things the way I think they should be doing it. Waaahhhhh!

What Steve says: 'When selling to users who want their devices to just work, we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time. And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.'

What Steve means: We believe telling people how to use their product is the proper way to do things. Customization? Who needs it!

What Steve says: 'This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers. Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the easiest-to-use, largest app store in the world, preloaded on every iPhone.'

What Steve means: My hugantic ego does not allow me to recognize that I don't need to have a stranglehold on every aspect of my companies product, or shove my vision of how to do things down my customers throats. And multiple sources for app distribution to create a real market with competing prices? Are you insane? I *must* have control of *everything*!

Not much of a lashing...

[joeyblades]

As lashings go, that was pretty tame. Actually, as much as I dislike iOS, I have to admit that Steve's point concerning fragmented versus integrated is a good one. Android is starting to go the way of linux - too many disharmonious variants to choose from... and we all know how successful that strategy has been for linux with the general populace.

Newsworthy?

[sietecuadrado]

This just in: Companies market their product using different words to make their product sound better than the competition!

Simpl equation...

[rickb928]

iPhone v Android = Microsoft v Linux

Same issues; relative freedom vs closed architecture, centralized v distributed, perceived quality v perceived user experience, bandwagon v meme.

I suspect the end result is still in doubt for both confrontations.

Jobs isn't running his mouth because he is afraid of Android. He can't help but make it a competitive situation and sell his product at the expense of the competition.

And Google isn't in this just for fun, either.

Re:Jobs is forgetting his own industries history

[Americano]

That approach didn't win him big market share in the $4000 PC market

No, but you'd be hard-pressed to describe Apple's lines of business as anything other than remarkably successful, given the profits they make on their devices, and the high customer satisfaction ratings for the people who do buy their devices. They're clearly doing something right, and making consistently good profits, and having people who enthusiastically love your products is a pretty winning combination, even if you're not the person who owns 95+% of the market.

Re:headline FAIL

[binary paladin]

Because every time Steve Jobs does ANYTHING some jackass needs to make it a headline and turn it into something way bigger than it is.

(And Jobs regularly uses this to his advantage.)

The fact that he's talking about it...

[slapout]

If Jobs wasn't worried about Android, he wouldn't be making comments about it.

I know! I should get -1 off topic

[jaypaulw]

I am not going to be able to live with myself.

we believe integrated will trump fragmented every

[bug1]

"we believe integrated will trump fragmented every time."

Translates to

we believe monopolies will trump competition every time.

One size fits all, do what we say...

[ChaoticCoyote]

'This is gonna be a mess for both users and developers,' Jobs said. 'Contrast this with Apple's integrated App Store, which offers users the easiest-to-use, largest app store in the world, preloaded on every iPhone.'"

I have five different grocery stores near my house -- I don't have any problem buying groceries. They all sell slightly different "stuff", which gives me more choice than if I have just one store. CHOICE IS GOOD.

The Android marketplace is competitive capitalism; Apple is one-size-fits-all, buy-what-we-say communism.

I'll take the chaos, thank you.

OpenWindows

[worldsayshi]

"The first thing most of us think about when we hear the word ‘open’ is Windows" - Jobs /// Yup, the first thing that came to my mind.

Well well

[giorgist]

I generaly say two things

If I am at a friends house, and I want to put some music in my iPhone on my phone, can I plug it into any computer ?
Every other phone can

If I am traveling and take some photos with my SLR, can I simply plug the SD card into my iPhone. Almost every other smartphone can.

And a final predictions ... within the year Steve will come up with a reason why flash is ok now.

I just wish what I just wrote is actually said by some Google guy. I am hoping Steve will comit to not supporting flash one more time :-)

G

Changing the words

[mgiuca]

"The first thing most of us think about when we hear the word 'open' is Windows"

Wow. As stupid as that sounds, I think this is a very dangerous statement. Jobs isn't just missing the point here. He's stealing our words. He appears to be saying "don't focus on open vs closed, focus on fragmented vs integrated." But he isn't really saying that. He's redefining "open" as "fragmented" and "closed" as "integrated". He's de-valuing all of the advantages of an open platform and summarising the entire paradigm with the word "fragmented".

Re:Changing the words

[mgiuca]

And to add further insult, his example of "why open systems don't always win" is Microsoft's DRM. That's your example of an open system? You're equating an open source operating system which anyone is free to install on any device to a system which prevents people from listening to music they have purchased?

Re:Confusion

[vakuona]

On the shoe analogy, one interesting thing mentioned to us at work by some marketing guy. One business person tried to set up a store in the UK which would allow men to choose from a bazillion styles of formal shoe and then choose the right size, and some assistant would go to the storeroom to get the correct pair. The men preferred to go to Marks and Spencer which only ever sells a handful of formal shoe styles, mostly in black. Men didn't like the choice. They prefer their choices curated. Sometimes, too much choice is a bad thing. Apple makes this easy. They are the third largets computer seller in the UK, and they have 3 defined computer products. iMac, MacPro and MacBook (OK, they have 4 if you count MacBook Pro). It makes it easy for people to choose the right product for them. Apple only sells one phone product (2 if you count the 3GS). They sold more of those than the Blackberry's 5 different models.

And I am sure Steve won't say this, but Apple are not exactly chasing market dominance. That would mean them trying to make and sell sub $100 phones. They want to dominate the high end, where the money is. Apple can survive, thrive even with a sub 10% share of the smartphone market. As long as they have the end of the market where people spend more money on phones, apps and expensive accessories. Android or Windows Phone 7 will become the de facto OS system of choice among those without their own OS. But that will include the sub $100 phones which Apple does not want to be in the business of selling.

Re:Oh so now Linux upsets him

[chrisG23]

Well....FreeBSD is not Linux. So what does your comment have to do with anything?

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[UnknowingFool]

Apple supports it when it benefits Apple.

And most for-profit companies do things to make them profits. So what? Did you miss the part where Apple has no obligation to release Darwin? What about open sourcing both Grand Central Dispatch and Bonjour (both Apple inventions)? What is in it for them? You just don't want admit that Jobs isn't afraid of open source. The fact that Apple has used it since the beginning of OS X undermines your statement.

Why the big deal over number of testable platforms

[flowwolf]

I don't get it. Developers already do this. It's not a bad thing. If we are developing for any pc os, we have to test on different install configs and platforms. this is normal.

He's pretty much saying cross platform development is bad. When seen in the light of his previous tirade against flash and the compilation of as3 to iphone app; You know, the one where he artificially makes it unable to happen with legaleeze; We can start to see some anti trust violations happening. He is first artificially preventing cross platform languages on the iphone. Then he says the competition is horrible for doing what the natural market has done for decades.

This is going a little farther than when Microshit put the crush on Netscrap.

Information Purification Directives

[lennier]

Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary
of the Information Purification Directives.
We have created for the first time in all history,
a garden of pure ideology.
Where each worker may bloom secure
from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths.
Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon
than any fleet or army on earth.
We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause.
Our enemies shall talk themselves to death
and we will bury them with their own confusion.

We shall prevail!

Apple Droid

[slack_justyb]

Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.

Yes, that's all we need is everyone / everywhere to have the same exact anything. Because free will and choice is so overrated.

Let's get those symbols lined up

[symbolset]

Closed = Integrated = Cathedral. Open = Fragmented = Bazaar. Eric Raymond is once again revealed as a visionary whose prophecy has long legs.

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

I said apple was afraid of an open platform such as android, not open source itself.

I then said Apple will use openness as it suits them... you agreed.

Where is the disagreement? NeXT? Its OSX now... and I still cant officially buy and run it on an intel PC, and Mac Compatibles are illegal to sell... which is odd seeing that Apple took the openness that is the PC platform, and secured it for their own benefit, rather than allow all PC users to buy their OS and run it on their own pc hardware.

Its their right as people point out... but... hardly open.

Apple wants you to do it the Apple way... and whatever that is... is at Steve Job's whim.

"Just works" Haha, no.

[Dwonis]

'Google loves to characterize Android as "open" and iOS and iPhone as "closed." We find this a bit disingenuous, and clouding the real difference between our two approaches,' said Jobs. 'Android is very fragmented. Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.'

In other words...Android is open and iOS and iPhone are closed.

When selling to users who want their devices to just work...

Funny. My Android phone just worked as soon as I got it. No iTunes required.

Also, since Leopard Server (and Snow Leopard Server), I know better than to trust that anything from Apple with "just work".

Oh, and Android's SDK just worked on my Linux box. No $99 developer fee or other bullshit. Getting my own version of K-9 built and installed on my phone, with zero knowledge about the Android SDK, took under an hour.

And we also think our developers can be more innovative if they can target a singular platform rather than a hundred variants.

Oh yes, because hearing about how other developers created something, only to be told that they couldn't sell it on the App Store for arbitrary reasons is so encouraging.

Bite my shiny metal ass, Steve.

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[indiechild]

And Google doesn't do the same? Where is their open source PageRank project?

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[UnknowingFool]

Your exact quote:

He's scared of Android.

He's scared of open platforms.

There is no mention of "like Android" anywhere in that second sentence and there is not implication that the two sentences are linked. They were two separate statements and I called you out on the second one.

I then said Apple will use openness as it suits them... you agreed.

My point is everyone uses something that suits them. I use open source when it suits me. I use closed source when it suits me. So what is your point?

Where is the disagreement? NeXT? Its OSX now... and I still cant officially buy and run it on an intel PC, and Mac Compatibles are illegal to sell... which is odd seeing that Apple took the openness that is the PC platform, and secured it for their own benefit, rather than allow all PC users to buy their OS and run it on their own pc hardware.

Your complaint was that Apple only used open source when it benefited them. My point was how does open sourcing something that they don't have to open source benefit Apple? Maybe they released it because they might be altruistic in this regard. Now you bring up the point that Apple doesn't sell Darwin by itself? Darwin is free. What is that your point?

which is odd seeing that Apple took the openness that is the PC platform, and secured it for their own benefit, rather than allow all PC users to buy their OS and run it on their own pc hardware.

Are you talking about openness of Unix or openness of PC platform? Because they are not the same thing and Unix was not open. BSD was open. You can run BSD, Linux, or Windows on a Mac.

Under the terms of BSD you can put Darwin on a generic machine and sell it. You can install OS X and be covered under Fair Use, but it's a gray area whether you can sell it. To my knowledge Apple hasn't cared too much if hobbyists may happen to sell a machine. If you decide to start a business (like Psystar) whose sole purpose is to infringe on Apple's copyrights, they will care. The same thing would happen if you started a business to sell generic PCs with AIX installed. IBM would sue you into oblivion.

By the way, I don't know if you're noticed that any second-hand PC you get normally through e-bay, re-sellers, etc has Windows removed. I'm pretty sure that MS considers Windows OEM licenses non-transferrable without additional fees (if the original licensee consents).

Its their right as people point out... but... hardly open.

What is your definition of "open"? Because it's becoming clear that open means you can do what every you want without regard to copyrights and licenses.

Apple wants you to do it the Apple way... and whatever that is... is at Steve Job's whim.

Apple hasn't given a damn that I run an assortment of closed and open source on my Mac. Perhaps you are generalizing without any concrete examples.

Isn't that Steve on the screen?

[haydensdaddy]

Isn't it interesting that Apple produced the "1984" commercial [here] all those years ago to show how different they were from the "one size fits all" model, and now they're advocating for it because it is them?

Jobs: Tech Tyrant

[uvajed_ekil]

Jobz seyz: Google loves to characterize Android as "open" and iOS and iPhone as "closed." We find this a bit disingenuous, and clouding the real difference between our two approaches,' said Jobs. 'Android is very fragmented.

So it is somewhat fragmented. That makes Android no longer open? How could one not define iOS as "closed?"

Many Android [manufacturers], including the two largest, HTC and Motorola, install proprietary user interfaces to differentiate themselves from the commodity Android experience. The user's left to figure it out. Compare this to iPhone, where every handset works the same.

This is only an issue (a minor one) if you buy a new device every few months, and change manufacturers when you do. My HTC Dream/T-Mobile G1 is 2+ years old and still going strong. It was very easy to get used to, and can run all but the newest Android apps. I can run the apps *I* want to run, not the ones the manufacturer says are okay. It is still pretty amazing for a 2+ year-old device. I have also easily been able to add updated, semi-3rd party firmware to bring it nearly up to date. Why do I care if it is very slightly different than a Samsung or Motorola phone? Do iPhone users need to get new devices every six months, or something? Plus I have the option of having a REAL, physical keyboard, rather than something likes the iPhone's touchscreen keyboard that takes up a lot of real estate and doesn't work worth a damn for people with large fingers.
Choice is good, and I will choose to avoid all Apple products until I can use them as I see fit rather than how they want me to.

Re:The software is open. The hardware may not be.

[beelsebob]

No, it's an indication that openness is the wrong thing to be arguing, because openness gains you nothing. Oh look, that's exactly what SJ said ;)

Re:The software is open. The hardware may not be.

[beelsebob]

Just for reference as well – it *is* part of what makes it free, it may be OSS, but not FOSS.

- The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).

All I know is.

[jtgreg]

(I have built my own PCs, compiled my own Linux kernel, used UNIX since college, programmed in Windows, designed ICs, etc and am slowing switching to Macs)

1) I wanted to stream music through the house. I bought an airport express for under $100, plugged it in, connected it to the network and my stereo. When I got to my mac, it had a dialog stating that it just detected an Airport Express, would I like to configure it? Sure; up and running in a few minutes.
2) On another occasion, when I started to stream music to the Airport Express, a dialog popped up telling me the audio cable was unplugged.
3) I was at a friend's house and he was using his Ipod Touch. I pointed out that if he bought an Airport Express to connect to his stereo and downloaded the free Remote app from Apple, he would have streaming music in his house and full remote control in his pocket for $100 and 5 minutes of his time. He did this the next day.
4) To get my wife's macbook on our network, I just had to type in the SSID and password and she was surfing the net in a few minutes.
5) When Snow Leopard came out with Exchange support, I VPN'ed into work, gave iCal my email address and password, and it found the server and downloaded my mail in a minute. It takes me that long to find the correct dialog in Outlook, let alone to configure it.
6) Wife's laptop hard drive crashed. Took it to the local Apple store and had the laptop back with a new hard drive in a day. My son's Dell Studio had to be sent in for a third time (10 day turn-around each time) before they finally agreed it was a POS and sent us a new model.

I struggle to think up just one experience like this after years with Windows and Linux. On top of that, in OS X i have discovered Folder Actions; the Automator; pre-installed python, perl, svn; and the development environment comes with the PC. I don't regret one cent of the Apple premium I have paid.

Android is promising, but I am worried what its eco system will look like once the carriers are through with it.

Needed: tough compatablity tests

[Animats]

What Android seems to need is a formal spec and a tough set of compatibility tests. That's how you deal with interoperability problems.

I used to be in aerospace. In that industry, if A and B don't interoperate, you go to the spec. If A isn't compliant, A is wrong. If B isn't compliant, B is wrong. If you can't tell, the spec is wrong. That's why you can unplug a Rolls-Royce engine from a Boeing 747, plug in a Pratt and Whitney engine, and go fly. Many years ago, in the early 1980s, I applied that reasoning to TCP/IP interoperability, and I was instrumental in pounding implementations into conforming to the published spec. At the time, it was a radical concept that completely different computers from different vendors with different implementations should talk to each other. Berkeley TCP originally did not play well with others. They felt it was only necessary to interoperate with other Berkeley UNIX systems. They were pounded on by their DoD funding agency until they got with the program.

Google needs to apply some of that hardass attitude to get cross-platform compatibility.

Steve Jobs the Oracle of Customers

[fishexe]

I love how Jobs, and Jobs alone, is the expert on what each and every customer wants. Why don't you come down from your ivory tower and interact with the hoi polloi for a while, Steve? You might learn something...then again, it might not be what you want to hear, and you might get dirt on your shoes.

Consider the source

[mister_jpeg]

Apple Macintoshes were characterized as an integrated experience/closed platform pitted against the open standards of the IBM PC. He sees the same battle here.

iPad

[aussersterne]

also runs iOS.

Are we really suprised?

[ndtechnologies]

I mean, Jobs is denouncing a competitor after all, amirite?

Re:Au Contraire

[cayenne8]

"I can't even tell you how many nightmares of synching I have had with iPhones + iTunes. Heck, nearly 2 weeks ago, iTunes removed 1/2 my contacts from my phone. I have still not been able to get them to sync back up."

Interesting. Honestly, you're the first person I've heard of with an iPhone with this type of bad problems....all anecdotal I know, but none of my friends/relatives with iPhones have ever had problems like this before...

Just curious...are you using iTunes on a Mac or Windows? I'm not familiar with trying to run iTunes on Windows, wondering if that might be causing the problems?

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[Jackie_Chan_Fan]

He's scared of Android.

He's scared of open platforms.

There is no mention of "like Android" anywhere in that second sentence and there is not implication that the two sentences are linked. They were two separate statements and I called you out on the second one.

I then said Apple will use openness as it suits them... you agreed.

My point is everyone uses something that suits them. I use open source when it suits me. I use closed source when it suits me. So what is your point?

I'm quoting what you wrote and what you quoted that I wrote. Re read it. You said "There is no mention of "like android" anywhere near that second sentence" Uh.. RIGHT ABOVE IT, I WROTE IT.

If you're going to pick apart my words... at least read them without disregarding the ones you dislike.

Re:He's scared and has resorted to word associatio

[UnknowingFool]

I'm quoting what you wrote and what you quoted that I wrote. Re read it. You said "There is no mention of "like android" anywhere near that second sentence" Uh.. RIGHT ABOVE IT, I WROTE IT.

My exact quote:

There is no mention of "like Android" anywhere in that second sentence and there is not implication that the two sentences are linked. They were two separate statements and I called you out on the second one.

In != near. Also you fail to address that you did not link the two subjects together. Maybe you did in your own mind, but you failed to do so in writing. And I can't read your mind.

If I said "I am scared of Dobermans. I am scared of dogs." the implication is that I am scared of dogs in general and Dobermans in particular. If someone pointed out that I own a Boston terrier that would make my second statement untrue. What I might have meant is "I am scared of dogs like Dobermans" that is a different meaning in that some breeds like Dobermans scare me.

i Wonder

[Batman of Earth-2]

If Apple's devices "just worked," why do they have technical support services?

Dev-mode first

[DrYak]

Yes, it drives you there unmodified. ...but you need to do the Konami code on the steering wheel first :-P

Boobies

[DrYak]

Also, boobies apps don't get auto-magically deleted just because someone at Google thinks they are amoral.

iJail

[t_ban]

Jobs also criticized life outside iJail, pointing out that there are innumerable choices to make, causing confusion for those who escaped and those who must support them. 'This is gonna be a mess for both the fugitives and their family,' Jobs said. 'Contrast this with life in iJail, which offers the easiest existence, in that you are relieved of the burdens of choice and decision-making.'"