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German Foreign Office Going Back To Windows
vbraga writes "The German government has confirmed that the German Foreign Office is to switch back to Windows desktop systems. The Foreign Office started migrating its servers to Linux in 2001 and since 2005 has also used open source software such as Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice on its desktop systems. The government's response to the SPD's question states that, although open source has demonstrated its worth, particularly on servers, the cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers, and of training, have proved greater than anticipated. The extent to which the potential savings trumpeted in 2007 have proved realizable has, according to the government, been limited – though it declines to give any actual figures. Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
The big reason this is being typed on an Apple instead of a Linux box is that Apple provided me with what I wanted. I only boot Linux in a virtual machine these days. Of course I work with several servers at work that run Linux and do their job admirably, but desktop Linux was never going to happen.
hurry up and be october already, dammit :|
I find it curious that Linux on the desktop should be so well accepted in some markets (especially Latin America) and resisted so vigorously in others. Anyway, this is sad news, whatever the reasons.
I'm not surprised at all.
One hopes they keep going with the Linux servers.
Let's blame the report rather than being introspective about real usability problem with Linux.
I can't see how anything could possibly go wrong.
On topic, this situation seems to be a chicken and the egg. Until a lot of people are using Linux, switching from Windows on a mass scale isn't feasible.
Microsoft staff + vendors posting as AC in 3...2...1...
Switzerland and Spain are doing great with OSS in government. What makes linux a bad match for the German Foreign Office? Or what are they doing wrong?
Without figures, this whole deal smells like MSFT getting a sweetheart deal with the German gov.
I still don't get the driver issue. I bought a brand new Canon all-in-one printer and found Linux drivers for the scanner and printer in a few minutes of googling.
But you can't make the horse drink it, is the lesson here.
People not adapting to change well!!!
n/t
---
So the human race ~is~ devoluting!
No, no sig. Really.
ThePromenader
Please, clarify. I understood that desktops was still Windows, but they used open source apps - Mozilla, OpenOffice.org suites, etc. Where's printer and scanner drivers comes in?
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
They'll get the update complete just in time to miss the migration to mobile. What's with Germany?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
It is worth noting in this context that there were a number of changes of government in Germany, implying that party politics might also have played a role. Between 1998 and 2005, the German government was a coalition of social democrats and greens (with a green foreign minister); between 2005 and 2009, the government was a coalition of christian democrats (conservatives) and social democrats (with a social democrat foreign minister); and since 2009, the government has been a coalition of christian democrats and liberals (with a liberal foreign minister). The "SPD" mentioned in the article is the social democrat party.
I thought this is the year of Linux on the desktop!
You never quit before even when the entire world was against you!
We have scanners and printers running no problem in our office on Ubuntu. Why exactly does he mention having to program printer and scanner drivers?
They might have a legitimate problem but from the information presented it sounds like poor excuses when someone asks for the exact figures and he responds with the need to write drivers. It sounds like something Microsoft would say from their "get the facts" campaign.
of course windows is interoperable with itself. pfft.
From the article:
Translation: Open Source Software has worked really well for us for the last ten years on servers, five years on desktops and three years on office suites.
Translation: Microsoft wined and dined whoever is in charge of setting organization-wide policies (it's not bribery if nothing shows up in your bank account!), and then offered to price-match the Open Source stuff if we would switch back - especially since we were telling other organizations how awesome our Open Source rollout was.
I mean, why else would they take a system that has, apparently, been working pretty well for the last three years and replace it with the system they just left, miraculously at no extra cost?
A comment from someone in the government shows that this isn't going down without a fight. The FO's answers to inquiries claimed driver costs were high. Officials say that something's wrong if writing drivers costs more than refitting the entire bureau with new Win/Office licenses.
Put identity in the browser.
I expect that some of the "interoperability problems" here stem from the fact that some manufacturers are not forthcoming with information for good drivers. Another reason is that the interoperability with MS-Windows is not optimal, but here is Linux not to blame......
and some issues for certain functions and users. The bigger question for me is how many security / virus issues occurred during the use of Linux for both servers and desktop ?
SupercalafragalisticexpialaTOLD!
... to Microsoft ... Guess someone did some good lobbying :)
has also used open source software such as Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice on its desktop systems
I also use these on my Windows 7 desktop at the office. Could the missing functionnality be the inability to read stupid PPTs? I call BS on missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability!
It's hard not only for governments. A retail operation was trying to switch to Ubuntu boxes and one of the problems became Zebra LP 2824 thermal printer drivers, which are all for windows and none are for unix/linux. Of-course CUPS support these printers to an extent, but not completely and the worst part is printing in Cyrillic - it doesn't work. Barcodes do print and English prints though. Is this a show stopper for Linux on desktop? It well could be in this case.
You can't handle the truth.
I use evolution and consider Thunderbird to be worthless. Aside from that as someone who uses Linux as a primary desktop for years (CENTOS/FEDORA) there's more general wierdness for me compared to Windows 7. Stuff is more likely to just work with Win 7.
I think the real benefit of open-source has nothing to do with the license cost which is quite overrated. The benefit is that I can just download the latest stuff anytime without having to worry about licenses or other hassles. Because the cost of MS software is quite insignificant for anybody living/earning in a western country (and people in other places mostly pirate it) when you consider it stays current for years. I mean would anyone seriously have considered themselves to save $200 on an XP license for example that they could've used for 6 years if they preferred XP? Maybe a few insane slashmonkeys would try to argue that.
My girlfriend had very similar complaints when I finally convinced her to give linux (Ubuntu) a try on her laptop. At first it was cool and new to her, but then she actually had to do things and was forced back to her macbook/a windows machine at school. I doubt I'll be able to convince her to go back for a while.
Someone at the top of the ladder @ Microsoft must have seen where this was going.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-06/microsoft-s-ballmer-to-invest-billions-in-cloud-data-centers.html
I wonder what printers and scanners they are using that would require them to write their own drivers? I have been using Linux for a few years now as my desktop and have had no problems connecting various printers using existing drivers.
Ryans Tutorials - A collection of technology tutorials.
It makes me wonder what arcane version of Linux they were using - or what kind of obscure brand of printers and scanners they insist on using. Any serious manufacturer these days supports Linux.
Now I know not all printers have Linux drivers available; yet this migration has been going on for five years and has been planned probably for years before that.Easy enough to replace equipment that comes to the end of its life span with equipment that's known to work with Linux. At least that is assuming they have a serious and competent IT department.
I am sure that with the money they spend in Windows licenses, they could have bought new compatible printers and scanners. Come on, most high grade, networked all-in-one printers and scanners are compatible with Linux.
Will be interesting to see if this is the start of a new trend the same way it was trendy for some governments to start switching towards Linux earlier.
Guess someone did some great "Lobbyarbeit" :)
Microsoft couldn't let this go unchecked.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-10-06/microsoft-s-ballmer-to-invest-billions-in-cloud-data-centers.html
I'm wondering which printers they are using that require them to write drivers? I thought most common printers had Linux drivers nowadays?
Ryans Tutorials - A collection of technology tutorials.
Looks like someone got a (untracable) bribe maybe?
... the cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers ...
Why are they writing their own drivers? As a sizable buyer of equipment (the government, not the single department) they could simply tell HP and other vendors that the government will only be considering equipment that has Linux drivers.
German Foreign Office hired the wrong people in their businesses. If these people have a college education, I expect they can handle changes as this. Also, writing drivers requires the effort to work with the vendor who sold the equipment. German Foreign Office does not want to admit Microsoft gave them a lucrative contract where they could not refuse to say no.
Linux has the problems with printer drivers on the desktop, I have had that problem, but for servers it is extremely stable and reliable, not to forget more secure as long as the security people know what they are doing. Modern Linux systems are quite easy to use on the desktop with the Gnome desktop, UNIX and it's descendant Linux are designed for running as a server operating system and it deserves a chance as a business` choice over the Redmond alternative.
liberare massarum ex ignorantia, clausa descendit molestie.
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
While it's very likely that Microsoft-addicted users complained, I am absolutely certain that no resources were spent on "writing printer and scanner drivers", thus making the whole claim untrustworthy.
Someone has to be investigated for corruption -- IIRC, in Germany it actually something that matters.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
1. what missing functionality? the article doesn't say.
2. define 'usability.' is this another "it's not windows" whine fest? osx isn't windows either but you don't see many complaining about that. that's right, end users can't install that latest trojaned screensaver or other useless app that, of course, they 'must' have...or maybe they can't play their mp3s, but that's not linux' fault, that's a policy issue. of course, with windows, it's easier for the average worker bee to get around such things.
3. interoperability with what exactly? just about any enterprise level printer and scanner will work with any os. I can't believe it's 2011 and we're still dealing with 'winmodem' style 'hardware'. Even on windows most of that hardware performs poorly. It's junk. Stop buying it.
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS! DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN. IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS. ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN.
*tumbleweed*
"Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
Sounds like they gave them NO training instead of the minimal training it would've taken to teach them the differences.
It seems like these tests always get skewed by IT technicians who think they know it all. Put a grassroots Linux developer in charge of your IT department, and I almost guarantee you, it won't be this bad.
As far as missing functionality and interoperability... if it's missing the function, usually it means it just wasn't all that good to begin with...
In the Linux world, it's not how hard it is to code, it's how badly you want the feature, and if enough users want it, someone will make it happen.
very light on details.
inevitable throng of fanbois
right... it's much easier to be interoperable when everyone is running the same (MS) crap... morons, that's not interoperability....
as for writing printer drivers, well, their fault for not selecting a manufacturer that makes sure it's hardware is compatible, such as HP
Really?
I mean, I suppose I don't really know much about this, but did they really have the sort of volume where a rollback to Windows was cheaper than writing printer drivers, and writing printer drivers was cheaper than buying a printer with open drivers? Seriously, what doesn't CUPS support these days?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
what the number of security / virus issues was (or wasn't ) during the period of using Linux in the office ? I do tech support for a medium sized school district and we are constantly getting pretty sophisticated phishing emails to some of our staff. And some staff still fall for them or send out emails or try to reply ... Fortunately we are 70% Mac based so most of that just blows by.
The issue with teachers is that they regularly email parents and students who may have infected PCs and their email addresses are then harvested.
Its not the years, its the mileage
Wikileaks is already preparing for the deluge of sensitive German diplomatic information that is bound to come in when someone hacks the new Windows machines. I give it a month, tops.
Monstar L
You spend all that money training people and changing the culture of your office to become more open minded and active learners with regard to technology only to switch back after you spent all the resources. Of course people are going to complain, change isn't always easy but if you facilitate the transition through training or knowledge management it eventually pays itself off.
Carl Sagan quotes get you an automatic +5 on all posts.
Yeeaaahhh !
The user is THE key.
Why no comments yet? Is everyone in denial?
I am sure some nice rebates and a few government lobbyists paid for special information sessions on learning the joys of Microsoft products of course. Maybe these including some nice resorts, dinners, and tickets for sporting events for these lovely educational lessons.
http://saveie6.com/
We still have some staff members using typewriters. I shit you not.
Never underestimate just how reluctant people are to change.
Especially when there is no incentive to do so.
And you want them to work harder to learn something that does the exact same thing except its cheaper for you.
And you expect them to get the same amount of work done different system.
And you cut their pay.
And their money isn't worth as much anymore.
And they could probably earn more as a bar tender.
Ways to make a change feasible.
Rule #1: If it doesn't make sense to the person doing the work to switch ie. no discernible benefit your screwed before you even started.
Rule #2: Build solitaire directly into clones of word and excel.
Rule #3: Build facebook games directly into all office apps.
Buy cross platform compatible hardware, but they do have a point.
I do wonder about the "lack of functionality, usability, and interoperability" claims. If you phase in the back end items: databases, web servers, file sharing, and LDAP then implement standards compliant replacement information stores and better looking front end client applications most users will scarcely notice the change. You could even keep Windows on the desktop. Microsoft Office is still king, and Open Office lacks the click-for-click interface cloning that stymies the average user.
Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
To miss the migration to mobile.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
*haha*
as the other departments were using windows and so the cost of writing the drivers wasn't being shared out amongst all of them, but kept in the single department... anyway, they should have been insisting on hardware only coming from manufacturers who provided Linux support... buying winprinters and expecting them to work on Linux is just stupid...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
As the article states, the reasons given are implausible. More likely, the move is politically motivated.
"standardised proprietary client solutions" is what the article says they want to return to.
By all means, they didn't get it: It is not about the software; but about standards. If I were a German taxpayer, I'd be up in arms: From now onwards, again, taxpayers' monies are used to produce documents that are inaccessible in future. Ask your parents, how nicely old MS-Office documents can opened in newer software versions: zero and nada.
Something smells corrupt here.
Oh, no, I suddenly - struck by enlightenment - understand: the crybabies ("missing functionality, interoperability") can't play Crysis on their workstations.
Open Source's strength has always been in code. Without the marketdroids demanding shininess or you're fired the shiny just doesn't happen.
Patches or GTFO doesn't help much either, no-one accepts GUI suggestions from users (either the current design is "fine" and you need to RTFM, which is usually either useless or out of date) or they want you to fix it yourself. Digging into a new codebase isn't a 5 minute endeavour, never mind that the best people for it are specialised in UI and may not be good code monkeys.
[It isn't a coincidence that a lot of cheap utility applications for Windows and Mac are basically just various open source tools wrapped up in a shiny UI, the fact that people are willing to pay for something they can get for free just because the payed version isn't a complete pain in the ass should tell you something. On the other hand, if you're hardcore you probably relish RTFMing and spending hours trying to figure out how to coerce ffmpeg into transcoding a video into a format compatible with your MP3 player]
Captcha: "ostrich" — seems oddly appropriate somehow.
Maybe next year will be the year of the linux desktop...
I know it's good for the community as a whole, but if it is too expensive for them and cost is an issue... most of the mainstream stuff is supported out of the box these days... and definitely cheaper to buy a new printer than write a driver
Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that
The document being referred to (German) doesn't say what kind of free open-source operating systems they tried to use on the desktops. I really wonder what that was, b/c I never came across a missing scanner or printer driver when using a halfways modern free open-source OS. Didn't they take a look at some modern Linux distros? And when an issue like that really comes up, before I'd write a scanner or printer driver, I'd purchase devices that work with my OS and sell the other gear. It really looks like the administration has been ripped off.
They missed the viruses
Nobody knows what is in the windows updates.... (beside maybe some Microsoft employee)
I would think that a gov. body should consider security as a top priority !
(Is anybody concerned that one day all WIndoze machines just stop and the whole department is stuck ?)
Also, even assuming the TCO is the same Win-Linux (I do not believe this) but instead of shipping money to Redmond you keep them in Germany, something a government should think about, or not ?
There can be a simpler explanation, as usual, a Microsoft representative visited a key person and explained the advantages to switch back to Microsoft.
(Any of you may just guess who will gain the most for the switch back)
It all comes down to the lack of focus and consistency with a few Open Source projects. Unfortunately making a desktop environment does not lend itself to a every-developer-is-equal type environment. In order to succeed a desktop environment project needs to be ruled with an iron fist from top to bottom.
See (albeit non-Open Source) examples: Windows, iOS.
This does not sit well with at all Open Source developers in general. The concept of a dictatorship flies in the face of whatever they hold dear.
So for this to succeed, somebody has to step up and create a desktop environment built from top-to-bottom with a no-questions-asked policy.
Y
One of many reasons I don't run Windows is, in fact, the poor interoperability with some of my favorite Linux only programs. That extends very few programs however.
It would be relevant to see which programs lack the stated poor interoperability.
as they were the only ones involved in the experiment, then their costs of writing drivers weren't being shared out... also, they should have absolutely insisted on hardware having to have Linux support out of the box from the suppliers. Expecting winprinters to work is rather stupid as winprinters aren't really printers at all as the manufacturer has shed a lot of cost by using the computer itself to do the hard work.
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Almost no need for comments here in Slashdot as the second half of the article "balances" the initial assertions.
Essentially, one group in a political party is against the use of F/OSS in favor of Microsoft and other BSA groups' products. They give arguments that do not contain any figures to support their claims. The article indicates this much but also asserts that the costs of creating various forms of support for hardware are CERTAINLY less than the costs of Windows and other software licenses. (You can almost certainly expect Microsoft to step in to offer discounted license costs to the German government to prove that's not true as they have in the past)
With all that said, it certainly does show there is still an uphill war going on where hardware support is concerned. Without question, the battles have mostly been won though the determination of developers, hackers and crackers where the results are an extensive pool of hardware supported under Linux. Trouble is, hardware development hasn't stopped and new ways to shut out access to Linux users have been added as it goes on. One that gets under my skin most recently is NVidia's Optimus technology that has made the use of the nvidia gpu impossible on my little alienware.
Until hardware makers are legally inhibited from doing so, this will go on for as long forever or until Windows becomes the next IBM or Novell. (Nobody believed IBM on the desktop could be killed off... nobody believed Novell on the server could be marginalzed either and they both happened. Why anyone thinks Microsoft Windows will still dominate in 5 years amazes me. They might, but they might not -- things are changing rapidly and there is still lots of government support and development of Linux around the world.)
Monopoly Vendor - meet locked-in Users. Locked-in Users - meet Monopoly Vendor.
The article or the linked pdf:s don't specify which programs cause the poor interoperability.
In view of that, it may just be some (illegal?) lobbying from other OS owners.
I guess that's that then.
Sounds like too many staff were experienced with Windows and didn't like learning something new... training, missing functionality, lack of usability and poor interoperability all sound like the complaints I've heard from users when asked to use a different system.
Incidentally, what on earth were they writing printer or scanner drivers for? Could they not specify 'compatible with our environment' on the RFP?
2011 The year of Windows on the Desktop
d'oh!
I love what the OpenOffice.org (and varriants) have done, but MS Office is SO INGRAINED in the soul of office work that anything else is unbearable for the majority. I'm sure that will change as younger generations utilize google docs, iWork, etc, but that's not the case today. At least not in German government.
Knowledge is valuable. Ignorance is dangerous. Censorship is unacceptable. http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10
Yeah, you don't think someone was paid off for that?
psot
Highly vague and seemingly riddled with underhanded intentions but maybe their games didn't run on Linux.
Well they gave it a shot, wonder how soon they would have dropped the project if they were using gentoo or slackware.
I don't get the interoperability argument. Both Word and OpenOffice.org export to PDF, and linux has great PDF readers. Windows has Adobe Reader, which gets the job done albeit being a little bloated.
The issue, I believe, lies not in the usability of the software, but the premature judgement of software missing functionality, just because some random yahoo can't figure it out.
Of course it is the "management" that are deciding it is too costly to continue with free open source. The IT department can't get a real reason why. The IT could do tons with the cost of licensing Office/Outlook/Windows and they can do many training seminars on how to use the Linux desktop (gnome is not that hard).
Looks like a few German officials are going to be making easy money as "consultants" over the next few years. What a shame.
I told you so
They go back to windows without giving -or maybe without being able to give- credible monetary figures why this would be a good idea?
I don't think that's the proper way to decide on something with such major impact on the budget and productivity, is it?
...WIII!!!!!!!
The idiot users were to stubborn to learn how to use it so they gave up and dropped millions on windows
FTA:
Henning Tillmann, a colleague of Oliver Kaczmarek, the SPD MP who raised the question, and a member of the SPD executive committee's web policy discussion group, told our associates at heise Open that the government's response was not satisfactory. "The reasons given for the return to Windows are implausible," says Tillmann, "We need the figures."
It sounds more like a change in IT leadership to me.
moi
How much?
I see the Microsoft marketing team finally got to them.
the most expensive part of a computing environment is the person at the keyboard.
By allowing this person to be as productive as they can be will rapidly remove the price difference between free/commercial software.
I have set people up on Win/Mac/Linux as appropriate to THEIR needs, not MY needs or MY ideology.
Free software costs more than expected.
Amazingly, work is not free.
Not exactly news, but a good reminder of reality.
So they either didn't check what they had or just carried on buying any old random scanner or printer. That's not the best route for success..
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
It's a pity it didn't work out. I would like to hear more details about exactly what didn't work out (with actual figures, please), so that something may be done about it. The information I have so far doesn't really add up:
They say:
Back in 2007, the Foreign Office's IT department regarded the use of open source software on servers and desktop systems as a success story. IT costs per workspace were reported to be lower than in any other government department
open source has demonstrated its worth, particularly on servers
but then they go on to say
the cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers, and of training, have proved greater than anticipated
Ok, so some costs were higher than anticipated, but open source had still demonstrated its worth and overall IT costs were still lower, right?
Also, why would they be writing their own printer and scanner drivers? That could certainly be done if it were the most effective option, but it's also quite possible to buy printers and scanners that are supported out of the box.
So I'm looking forward to getting more answers, particularly as to why certain choices were made the way they were made, and how much money they each cost.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
I am sure if we all switch back to Windows, Microsoft can take advantage of economies of scale, and lower prices for everybody. Once OS X is killed off as well, no one can complain that their computer works slightly differently than they are used to. (Unless Microsoft brings out another version of Windows, but that is of course different. It wouldn't feel like a new and improved version if they didn't change the user interface and move things around a bit.)
Really? No comments on an older slashdot post? When did this ever happen.. maybe my browser is broken.
Why switch run Virtualized Windows on Linux for those that need it.
I wrote an article about this in 2005. Basically, the MS hegemony meant people learned where to click things, rather than what they do and the concepts behind them.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47652
In the 80s you didn't need to be a geek to use a computer, but at the same time you learned basic ideas that would let you feel at home on any system or OS. Now people just think, "Go to the start menu. No start menu? What the fuck what do I do???"
The decision is political, not technical.
The German original is at http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Linux-im-Auswaertigen-Amt-Rueckmigration-auf-Windows-nicht-zwingend-1192284.html and based on http://www.netzpolitik.org/2011/interne-dokumente-des-auswartigen-amtes-zur-anderung-der-open-source-strategie/#more-20730.
Netzpolitik cites a McKinsey study that sees significant costs from a switch back to MS Windows. The main remaining problem is user resistance, which can be mitigated by keeping some dual-boot installations for a while longer.
Warum?
Progress is man's ability to complicate simplicity!
I am pretty sure that the German Foreign Office will get flamed like crazy now - but I think it is important to see the positive side of it all. It was a big experiment, with a non-zero cost (for the German Government) to it. Instead of ripping the German Foreign Office the open source community should take this and try to learn as much as possible from what happened. To quote Thomas Edison:"I have not failed. I've just found 10000 ways that won't work." Information Technology is not just about the technology, or the ideals behind the technology. It is also about people, about organizational change and social systems and structures. The German Foreign Office is an ideal lesson in all of this.
I'd like to see the following recipe used for the comments, please.
1) Ad hominem attacks on Germany
2) Comments about installing Linux for your grandmother and her never having to ask for help for the last 5 years
3) Comments that hardware creators are not open enough
4) Random attacks on Microsoft's OS from the perspective of Windows 95.
5) Random attacks on Mac owners.
6) A "BSD is dying" post
7) A "this is news?! Where's the Slashdot I used to know" post
8) A comment about the inconsistency of the periods I used to end each of my points
Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality,
True. I have long discounted Free/Open Source software for productivity tools. My servers run Debian, but I would never again use that on my desktop. Though I moved upwards to OS X, not downwards to windows, I can relate to those users.
a lack of usability
Also true, most Free/Open Source software is still made and designed by geeks for geeks, and hasn't had a desperately needed visit to a usability expert. Usability is not something you can do as an afterthought. Either you have it designed in from the start, or it won't be there.
and poor interoperability."
By which they most likely mean it doesn't read .xslx files and doesn't sync properly with Exchange. Welcome to the world of MS lock-in. It is real, and it's the main profit source for MS. Now we know that even a government can't free itself from that burden.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
The article mentions Henning Tillman saying that "The costs of licensing Windows and MS Office throughout the department would cover the costs of programming a hell of a lot of drivers, --". To me, this raises the issue of ownership and economic incentive.
Suppose that the Foreign Office paid some 3rd party organization to write the needed drivers. The drivers would have to be open sourced. The 3rd party would have clear financial incentive to write the drivers as they would get paid for developing as a service. The problem is that neither the Foreign Office or the 3rd doesn't really own the developed drivers as the drivers have to be given (at least the sources) for free. Economic incentive for the Foreign Office is that the drivers would increase their productivity (or more accurately, enable productivity). But is it economically viable?
Given that the Foreign Office is a department of the government, this spending could be justified as a public service. The function of governments is to offer public services which are paid with taxes. Now only problem is that would you want your taxes to be used to develop open source software?
I remember reading about a police department that went through the same thing and eventually went back to Windows from Linux. Turns out that it was almost the same costs as windows mostly from paying linux experts to run and manage/customize everything. Hey, as much as some Linux users hate Windows, it's easier to use for the layperson.
Fascinating to see how closed, proprietary, obfuscated software has managed to twist the meaning of these words. Welcome to the world where black is white, and freedom is slavery.
Why switch. Run Virtualized Windows on Linux for those who need it.
Fisrt opst? :P
-- no sig today
I can understand that they would not want to use Linux if they have to write printer drivers for it! But in my experience, network printers work out of the box with Linux both for duplex and four-color printing. What kind of special printing requirements would the German Foreign Office have where the regular printing setup isn't good enough? Does Windows come with specialized printing drivers?
Football Odds
While Linux and the open desktop have certainly come a ways since - even 5 years ago, it saddens me to say that neither are ready for the proverbial "prime time". While I can't imagine using anything but GNOME these days, I have a much larger threshold of putting up with things like unavailable codecs, incompatible drivers, and just plain software unavailability - possibly because in most such cases, I'm willing to make the effort to figure out how to make things work. We're getting there though, and the state of Everyman Linux is certainly leaps and bounds above of where it was as little as 5 years ago.
Frost pist
I never bothered to post here because all I had was Norwegian sources, but here in Norway there's been two major blows to OpenOffice adaption. Both the county and region that used to push it the hardest has announced plans to migrate back to MS Office, taking with it 4000 and 20000 users back to Microsoft. When the total public sector is some 800000 people and already 90%+ Microsoft, it's creeping back up towards 100% not down. And if you can't do without MS Office, you can't do without Windows. Linux on the public desktop seems just further and further away at this point.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
On commercial tech transfer park of major university campus, experience was similar. Many startup businesses started off with full Linux, servers and desktops. But as they expanded, the desktops moved to Windows and Mac. They kept the Linux servers. The Linux desktops provided too many issues. Exception was scientific and technical companies where the users preferred Linux for their special applications.
"though it declines to give any actual figures. Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability." riiight. Move along?
I'm sure there'll be one of those subtitled Hitler spoofs along real soon now.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Well, as they’re known for their efficiency, planning and methodical approach to engineering solutions, this doesn’t do much bode too well for Linux, does it?
@peetm
Enough said.
Sounds like they had a little help writing the report...
when oh when can we get a fully reversed engineered minesweeper for linux?
actually I am happy to see you, however that is in fact a banana in my pocket.
When you elect a conservative party which makes a coallition-government with the lobbyist party (the FDP - "free democrats" are actually just that), you get exactly that.
A goernment which is susceptible to this kind of corporate influence.
And they don't even have to justify their actions. They don't have to give the actual numbers. Transparency in government my a**. I didn't vote for them.
Fascinating to see how the world of closed, proprietary, obfuscated software has twisted the meaning of these words. Welcome to the world where black is white, and freedom is slavery.
here's a very relevant quote:
Their savings were not as much as they thought but that doesn't mean they "saved nothing" or "spent more". And they really should have thought of training costs - because the generation of the workforce required to use FOSS probably had no previous experience with it, through education or past jobs. Overall, sounds like there's no good excuse...very un-German of them.
I wonder if they are using Brother Printers. My experience with printing with Ubuntu at home is it printing 1 page every 10 minutes, compared rebooting into windows at several pages per second. The same multifunction device works really well at scanning however on Ubuntu.
Where is the source data? Where are the numbers? Where are the comments? That would certainly help evaluating their decisions. Such a report on other hand would be also a valuable piece of information, since that kind of feedback CAN be used to improve the overall Open Source Desktop Experience.
for example in writing printer and scanner drivers,
Why not buy printers and scanners that already have drivers available then? Big saving and there is plenty of choice. They already employ someone to do the selection in the purchasing dept., that person should also keep a list of which ones are compatible.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
Slashdot ates my comment and that sucked!!!
Football Odds
I suppose any moment now the hordes will arrive argumenting everything, from conspiracy theories to "this software is better".
Here is the incredible truth:
Software is just a tool used to accomplish something else. The Real People Out There use what works for them, not what they believe in.
Computer people should stop with the religion wars already, it's frankly ridiculous...
My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
After the work of migrating from a Windows environment, getting comfy with things, developing training, documentation, and the SOE,etc, it seems terribly wasteful to then have the headache of moving to another platform, even if it wasn't Windows. I'm on a Windows team in a government role now, and I would be horrified to change ships after all of the documentation alone had taken so much collective time/money to create and maintain. I'd imagine their sysadmins would be feeling the same after what sounds like a long teething process. Anyone have any further insight, perhaps some German government sysadmins?
proof linux sucks!
I use open source in my own company for everything, for me it paid out handsomly. But what I do question is how much Microsoft was willing to cut of its price to Germany just to get this PR. MS is known for giving huge price cuts when a government wants to move way from Windows. I guess moving back was worth a lot more. But how much more?
Open Source is by programmers, for programmers. Almost none of the benefits of this approach to software development are seen directly by users, and in many cases, the 'design by a loose affiliation of mostly disinterested parties' methodology is counterproductive.
Where can we find direction and unity of purpose? None of us set out to write crap software, and we can, collectively, do better. How can we make things work?
I've dealt with SAP and it's not a good experience, they are stubborn, but they make good cars
I'm betting they had some problems with OOXML documents.
OpenOffice does a really crap job of importing them.
the lack of netflix support...
for example in writing printer and scanner drivers
Cost of training plus the constant whining of users who were used to Windows for most their lifetime is understandable as a downside of the linux desktop. But "writing printer and scanner drivers" ? Really? So one can guess that they change their printers & scanners in a yearly or even 6-month basis and the linux community can't keep up with the drivers, so the German Foreign Office employees have to sit down and write their own..!
Duh, did anyone not see this coming...
Windows was not declared a monopoly for no reason.
The foreign office is run by Guido Westerwelle, leader of the FDP (so called "liberals") who are pretty known for having close ties to companies and the industry in general. To be more blunt: pay them enough money and they do what you want them to do. Just recently they halved the taxes on hotel bills - after receiving a noticeable amount of money from a company running lots of hotels (Mövenpick) for their election campaign a few months prior.
So it's safe to assume that some coffers with money changed owners in return for this step. They are corrupt (pretty much everyone knows this) and they use it where ever they can. So far they (mostly) managed to stay within the legal limits (which is not too hard considering that there are very few restrictions for politicians in Germany, so basically once elected you can do pretty much anything you like without too much fear of of any serious consequences).
Seriously? Why did they need to write printer drivers.
If they had just had the forethought to BUY printers that had working linux drivers, it wouldn't have been an issue.
Most enterprise level printers have a decent postscript driver that operates in a unix environment just fine.
Over the last 5 years I have not been in an office that didn't have a scanner that had the ability to email scans to me directly from the machine - no driver needed for that.
though it declines to give any actual figures
This smells funny. a generous windows-salesman ? a receptive IT-manager ?
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
take that linsux
Backward compatibility is, and will probably always be, what is most important for existing companies. Probably one of the reason why start-ups can often outpace older companies.
It does give an idea how much it must have cost to Microsoft to change eg the Hotmail infrastructure after their take-over. Which shows management must just take a decision and push it through from time to time .... at least, if they have reason to believe they took the right decision.
Friends are friends...
Returning to Windows for clients sounds reasonable, especially if there are problems with drivers. But going back to Office and outlook?
Standard Mircosoft BS; Office is not "industry standard", many groups are seeking alternatives.
or they just enjoy the challenge of restoring /wiping and re-installing virus-ridden computers on a monthly basis.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
For those able to read German, here some quotes from leaked documents:
http://www.netzpolitik.org/2011/interne-dokumente-des-auswartigen-amtes-zur-anderung-der-open-source-strategie
is not that they're moving back to Windows, but that they're moving back to Windows XP. I could understand it better if it were WIndows 7. Although they'll inevitably upgrade at some point, it seems a lot of hassle to go back to an inferior operating system for a transitional period.
The reason I think Windows 7 would make more sense than XP (aside from all the support and security issues), is that Windows 7 really does offer something that neither KDE nor Gnome do which is a very simple and easy to manage environment. I like both Windows 7 and my KDE desktop running on Gentoo. I like Windows 7 because it is really slick. I like my Linux box because it's powerful, has all the tools I need to do advance things I like to do. The trouble is that someone like me is an edge case. I wouldn't want to see KDE or Gnome attempt to emulate Windows so much that they lost the powerfulness that I like about them (KDE more than Gnome is my preference mind you). But similarly, I think you couldn't fully incorporate the power of Linux into Windows 7 without losing some of that slickness and simplicity. There seems to be a natural divide between the two where either attempting to bring in the qualities of the other is likely to spoil some of the good stuff. And unfortunately the German FO users are going to be the sort of users who want slick simplicity, rather than crunching power. I say unfortunately, because Windows will cost them more.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Returning to Windows for clients sounds reasonable, especially if there are problems with drivers. But going back to Office and outlook?
Standard Mircosoft BS; Office is not "industry standard", many groups are seeking alternatives.
Why couldn't I have come across this empty topic back when first posts were cool?
Once again, TCO proves that Linux on desktop its still a terrible choice. Especially for normal users.
On servers it rocks, but not on desktop.
Not to speak of that sovereign countries should use sovereign software
where is the risk analysis for a backdoor/firmware trojan in IT products coming from certain countries? ( US, PRC, Taiwan etc.. )
FTA: "The costs of licensing Windows and MS Office throughout the department would cover the costs of programming a hell of a lot of drivers..."
I'm a software engineer, and I'm all for job demand, but this seems pretty shortsighted. The issue revolves around total cost of ownership, not just the monetary cost of proprietary software. They're a government office. They shouldn't have driver-programming developers on their tax-dollar-funded payroll.
From TFA:
In other words, a new IT boss decided he had to make his impression. Since there are no quantitative details given, this post is just here to fan a flamewar. Oh, and users also complain when moving from one version of Microsoft Office to the next one, so that throwaway comment is also empty of any real information.
They should have used something more viable...
"Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
'Claims'? I find all of those complaints to be possible and valid. I also find them valid on a Windows desktop, and also on my Mac desktop.
I don't think we need to load the article, how about the word 'states' instead? Some of these complaints could well be valid, and instead of dismissing them the Linux desktop distros should be reading and seeing how many are valid, how many just need education, how many could be imediately addressed etc..
It's a chance to learn, not to draw into a shell and defend.
Cheers,
Ian
Where are all the wonderfully insightful slashdot commentary on flamebait articles? I feel cheated!
This is scary. The story has been up for quite some time and no flame wars have started yet ? Either Linux fans have resigned to their fate (not likely) or I am the only living being on the planet left that is able to access Slashdot
Is the comment feature broken again or do comments have to be approved by the BND (German CIA counterpart) before they show up in this entry?
at some point, I changed the background image for my mom's desktop. upon discovering this, she exclaimed "where's my windows?"
new sig
Ah, the sweet smell of corruption...
I just love to wank all day every day! 3
I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right.
-
Shouldn't sovereign countries use sovereign software? To protect their very own assests?
Where is a risk analysis for firmware trojans in IT equipment from abround ( US, PRC, Taiwan, SKorea... )?
When the majority of your staff is too brain-dead to think of alternative means to accomplish what they wish to do, because they've been too used to Windows doing most of the thinking (or having an application for that) for them, this is ultimately going to be the end result.
In the meantime, without having to write anything, I've found the drivers for every one of my devices, in Linux, relatively easily. All it takes is a drive to RTFM, an desire to attempt to understand it, and lack of the fear of failure.
I figured out DOS as a child without a manual, my dad just told me "type /? or /help" (I don't remember which in DOS 5.0) and I'd get a command list. He told me to read it, play with it, do whatever, don't worry about breaking it because it was simple to fix (and in those days, they truly were, compared with the garbage of today.)
From there, Win 3.1 and on was simple. I just had to learn the GUI way of doing command line things.
I can still do as I please either in Windows CLI or GUI. I'm almost proficient enough to do it in Linux, and more than proficient enough for MenuetOS.
It's just the end result of being used to something and not forced to use your brain all the time.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
There is almost no reason that they should of been writing drivers. This just means they didn't do any research before buying equipment. Printer drivers are especially surprising since support on Linux is better then on Windows or Mac.
... ach Du Scheisse!
The less interoperable Microsoft makes Windows, the more people will buy it.
I can guess the main reason for this: user demand for Microsoft Outlook. I still haven't seen a coherent integrated alternative to the Outlook/Exchange/SharePoint ecosystem on enterprise FOSS desktops. If I were the head of an IT department I would weed out Microsoft products and all other proprietory software, but to prevent user revolt I would leave the following in place:
1. Windows client (eg Windows 7)
2. Office
3. Active Directory (to manage Windows clients via group policy objects and because objectively it is a very good x.500 directory service that I can also use for single-sign-on to my FOSS servers as well)
4. Exchange
5. SharePoint
People who haven't seen the above products working together in a well-configured enterprise enviroment are not qualified to comment on the feasibility of attempting to replace them with FOSS.
"Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability"
Let me guess... to all those Linus/Linux puppies this will come as a total shock?
For me it did not..
It is well known that the FDP (the German liberal democrats, that's the "Party of the Rich") loves Microsoft. The boss of the Foreign Office is at the same time the boss of said FDP. Well...
What gives me the jeeves is that we are funding all that smut with our hard-earned tax money.
"Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
Exactly what I've found when using Linux, both at home and at work. I'm hoping we get some sensible discussion out of this, instead of the standard Linux zealot response of 'oh, its because the users aren't ready for Linux!
Hmm.. has this anything to do with the Atlantist views of Herr Westerwelle & Frau Angela Merkel?
Most printers and scanners work under Linux. Use compatible hardware when you switch to Linux?
For most organizations, especially non-technical organizations, the availability of source code is really irrelevant. One might argue that they *could* change things if they needed to, but as a practical matter they really can't. Organizations whose mission includes software development are certainly capable of taking advantage of free and open licenses.
But it sounds like the bottom line is that, in the end, they found Windows better for them than Linux. You certainly have to admire their willingness to try something outside the norm, however. IT wouldn't have made much difference, I suspect, if Windows were open source and Linux were proprietary.
Unless you're a software development organization, source availability per se is really not a useful criterion upon which to make an IT decision.
But this is Slashdot, so, you know, it must be a conspiracy.
Sorry, I am not convinced ... ;-P
Just because the license is free does not mean that the costs associated with changing over are zero.
Maybe the Foreign office should consider buying hardware from manufacturers that provides drivers?
Someone commented (on TFA) that the cost of Windows + Office licenses would cover a large amount of driver authoring ; never mind that, it would probably cover the costs of buying printers and scanners that had compatible Linux drivers - and then some.
Uh oh. Looks like 2011 is the year of the Windows Desktop.
It sounds a lot like my experience with Linux.
I hate feeling like I have to turn in my geek card to use Windows, but Linux has always felt like the place for hobbyists-turned-career, while you go with the MS solution if you have other things to spend your time on than coming up with clever ways to make things actually work.
IMHO, of course.
Well, I'm cynical enough to believe that MS offered a nice package that they couldn't refuse.
Linux is fun to play around with and some individuals get by fine with it and I have seen great strides made in the quality and usefulness of Linux distro's. However, there will come a time when a person has the need to use some software or a specific piece of hardware that will take to much effort to get working or simply will not work at all on the Linux distribution. What the German Foreign Office discovered about Linux was inevitable and the switch should have been researched a little more throughly (At least they did a Dual-boot configuration in the test run)
They were using BerrrrLinux.
Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability.
Especially those users who have a relative or friend who works in the Microsoft PC sales business ...
the year of Windows on the desktop?
2011: Year of the Windows desktop?
As the article states, until we see numbers it is difficult to see what is going on.
The is a lot at stake here for Microsoft. If the project were successful, then it would open the floodgates for lots of similar efforts, and could even break Microsoft's monopoly on the desktop. Thus, Microsoft is obviously hoping that this project fails. Conspiracies aside, one way to help the transition back to Windows is to lower prices, offer special deals, free services, etc. I wouldn't surprise if this happened.
It could also be that the required device compatibility imposed a big programming cost, and it really did cost more than expected. I'm curious to learn if that cost could be amortized over larger/more government departments.
Let's get the full facts first before we judge.
---- It won't be as bad as you fear or as good as you hope, but it will take twice as long as you plan.
woot, never had one before
The government's response to the SPD's question states that, although open source has demonstrated its worth, particularly on servers, the cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers, and of training, have proved greater than anticipated.
Read: "We bought the cheapest, under-priced, locked down hardware peripherals (e.g. Lexmark printers) and now our only option is to continue to bleed money."
But don't worry. The gnome developers are working hard at trying to make your linux desktop like a crap apple mac thereby further alienating the massed hordes of unwashed Windows users.
At the rate of current development no windows user below the level of super geek will even recognise, let alone be able to use, the gnome desktop and Linux will be safely back in the hands of geeks where it belongs.
And KDE refuses to keep anything the same even between the hours of the day.
But in all seriousness this is the problem with the "Linux desktop experience". Ever release of gnome/KDE sees more asinine features introduced, or the desktop metaphor completely changed, whereas the real problems stopping adoptions are simple.
1 Nothing stays the same so dumb users (the majority of peope who use a computer at work) can't learn something once then carry on.
2 Programs are full of bugs. Nobody fixes them.
3 Programs aren't available to do the most common tasks well or if they are the interface sucks.
Still if the devs want to spend all their time tinkering with a desktop who am I to complain ? It's their time. Just don;t expect me, or my work mates, to use or support it in our organisation.
There's a reason we're sticking with XP. Out users are comfortable with it and the programs we have get the job done.
Ho hum, c'est la vie
I think this proves what my personal experience is.. that there's a lot of good in Linux for the end-user, especially in Ubuntu. But there are SERIOUS gaps in drivers & usability sometimes. It's a better effort from a community than I thought possible some years ago, but amount of work to keep all drivers up-to-date is just too much. Windows wins by virtue of all companies automatically developing drivers for it.. so whenever some driver doesnt work, it's the vendor, not M$ that gets the blame. But with linux driver handling is so integrated into the system most users (like my wife) just go "linux sucks" when something doesnt work. This is just my opinion and doesnt need to be followed by posts asking "So what exactly doesnt work?" and "You're wrong, all you need to do is configure doohickey1 by using nageesh3.8, which you can get with the command...."
The article on heise.de has a link to internal documents of the Foreign Office, which shed a little bit different light on the whole thing.
I call Balmer was here and left cash
ficken dich!
all those studies microsoft did about higher TCO for OpenSource turned out to be true. *ducks* In retrospect, they are telling us things that we already know for years - OpenSource / Linux on desktop is NOT ready. Linux / OpenSource is great on the server side. Definitely 2011 is not the year of the Linux desktop :)
Nothing to see, move along...
Disclaimer: For the utterly daft, my statement about the TCO study was sarcasm incase you missed it.
This is not the operating system you're looking for... (/waves-hands-semicircularly)
I find the article very light on details, other than very general things. Could it be because most of the "issues" the users have with the Linux systems and programs is that they look different than what they were used to? If this is the case, I wonder what they do when they buy a new car, do they retake their driving licence?
In the early 2000's things seemed to be going to Linux, but since 2005 or so it just seems it's slowed and gone away. I still use a Linux desktop, but certainly there's no momentum that way in business desktops.
The german foreign office is headed by Guido Westerwelle, FDP. FDP is the german liberals party, and they have "aligned [themselves] closely to the promotion of free markets and privatisation" from wikipedia.org https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Free_Democratic_Party_(Germany).
netzpolitik.org seems to have documents from a McKinsey survey which support the opposit claim, in particular that Windows single boot would be technically possible and attractive from a user's perspective, but expensive, work intensive and hard to justify [Freely translated from https://www.netzpolitik.org/2011/interne-dokumente-des-auswartigen-amtes-zur-anderung-der-open-source-strategie/#more-20730]
A survey article about the matter can be found at [heise.de http://www.heise.de/open/artikel/Die-Woche-Kein-Linux-im-Auswaertigen-Amt-1191310.html] google translate is http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heise.de%2Fopen%2Fartikel%2FDie-Woche-Kein-Linux-im-Auswaertigen-Amt-1191310.html
Anyone tried getting the G15 keyboard macro keys working easily? This is not what I call easy. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LogitechG15
I persisted because I want to support FOSS, but I can easily understand that if government departments and companies are faced with similar issues, they probably don't care about FOSS - they focus on budgets and the costs involved in support.
Until the desktop industry embraces Linux in the same way the hobbyists do, this issue is a major roadblock.
> Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
We had Vista forced down our throats. Users also complain of "missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability" and that with good reasons. Yet the very company responsible for those poor products will make even more money, because unlike Linux and FOSS, it will never be put into question. Besides, as we've all known for the last 20 years or so...the NEXT version will be REALLY GOOD(TM) anyway!
Why is the free market failing so badly in this area??
When in doubt, do not go back to Windoze.
"The Foreign Office started migrating its servers to GNU/Linux in 2001 and since 2005 has also used free software such as Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice on its desktop systems"
FTFY. No need to thank me.
Slashdot must be broken. This was posted two hours ago yet there is no fanatical ranting.
There's nothing much more to say, really. No real reasons exist, even moreso since those stated were known before the switch.
fap fap fap!
One of the pluses for getting linux desktops instead of windows in my place is that they work with most printers out of the box. Professional printers/copiers are usually easier to interface, they can act as smb or ftp hosts to send scanned docs.
Of course I think they have sound reasons to switch back, I think that their tech staff will not be happy to think again in terms of AV licenses and driver hunt on websites.... wish them better luck next time.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
Moving back to Windows from Linux is understandable, but moving back to XP? The OS will be 10 years old in 6 months' time!
So during these nine years they couldn't figure out to buy only supported hardware? I mean, come on, on Windows you have also to do that, especially since Windows7 doesn't support great deal of older hardware.
The management from the beginning was stupid, the move back to Windows only confirms it.
The German public has been an ardent supporter of FOSS...to see this kind of news does not bode well for the future of FOSS. I suppose the optimal point is corporate managed FOSS - the kind Google and Sun(used to) maintain.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Strange indeed after it already had been deemed a success...
"The Foreign Office is now six years since his successful IT Infrastructure increasingly on open source and to the largely been unnoticed by the public."
http://www.opensourcejahrbuch.de/download/jb2007/osjb2007-03-06-werner.pdf
Did they compare the costs of switching to Linux to the costs of paying for Windows for the next few thousands of years? Because that's what they should have done.
I assume the comment system is broken ?
Just buy printers and scanners that are supported and the cost is zero.
Basically any business class networked printer supports Postscript and/or PCL, which have standard drivers anyway.
The real reason is no doubt some bureaucrat who just wants his Outlook and Excel. Or one who has links with some large software vendor. Impossible to prove though, they'll produce whatever reports they need to to justify what they want to do.
[...] the cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers, and of training, have proved greater than anticipated.
Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability.
So basically they've painted themselves into a Microsoft corner and can't get out. (Although "writing drivers" sounds like complete bullshit.)
I do recommend they switch back to Windows, and then move to Apple products. It's a sure way of wasting even more money, if the current flip-flopping isn't doing it for them.
Life is Reality
Until you can get one single unified model for a linux desktop, linux ON the desktop isn't going to happen. Fine for servers and fine for users that know what they are getting in to. Not fine for regular people. With freedom comes choice and with choice comes indecision. Sometimes less choice is more and why Windows, with all its faults, has succeeded. One OS which operates the same (in theory) regardless of hardware. Linux, from a users perspective, does not operate the same regardless of hardware. The interface is a fragmented mishmash of every 'good' idea its contributors came up with. Linux is a server OS. Some of us run server OS's on our desktops and that's fine, but it's not for regular users and never will be.
There were two studies conducted by McKinsey, that both led to the result that an Open Source/Free Software desktop was feasible and a strategy that is saving the AA costs, but the powers that now be seem to disregard any evidence that suggests sticking to the solution currently in place there, because someone from MS seems to be sending in black suitcases... it's disgusting.
On top of that, they're considering switching to Windows XP now, and to a Windows 7 and Office 2010 setup later on! Migrating platforms twice within two or three years (XP support ends in 2014, mind you). This is just utterly insane.
:%s/Open Source/Free Software/g
YTARY!
First post
Let me translate that for you: Our brain dead paper pushers couldn't be arsed to learn the very basic things they need to know in order to use an office suite slightly different than Microsoft's. What do these people need, really, word and an e-mail client? Pfffft.
Also I call bullshit on his driver claim.
Telling them (more accurately, their secretaries) to type in to a CLI is suicidal.
Linux needs a distro that can be operated 100% with GUI. Even 99% will not cut the meat. Sorry, but In GUI, atleast you can fumble around and click some relevant button [2], CLI doesn't tell you that, for example, to stop something, press Ctrl+Z, or some such. People want to be able to click an X.
OTOH, the German govt could have used out pressure on the manufacturers to provide drivers.
Anecdote time:
Familiarity is also important. My dad retired as a stenographer for the Forign Office of my country, and he wanted to use my PC to type an application or something. I was running Ubuntu, and I offered him Open Office. 15 minutes later, he was pulling his hair, since he couldn't format it to the peculiar formatting rules in his office (A bizarre format not compatible with any of the standardized Business Letter styles[1]), and requires you to fumble around with the bulleting, tabbing and rulers. And those things didn't behave like they did in his Office 97 or whatever.
My dad was retired, what if he was working in office and had to handle OO for all the time? He would have gone nuts. Training wouldn't have told him how to make sure the first para start with a "larger" indent but no number, but the subsequent para start with and a "smaller" indent and number 2, 3, 4 etc.
These are the kind of weird stuff you learn not from a training course, but from your seniors 15 minutes into the job, only there will be no seniors to tell you how to do that in OO. I eventually managed to do the formating for him, but the "largeness" and "smallness" of those indentation was not upto standard, and he was not pleased with OO.
Now on, whenever he wants to do stuff, I have to dualboot into Xp and offer him Office.
OO is not Ubuntu's fault, but over all, alot of niggles have popped up to make sure that I have my computer boot into XP by default, in case he ever need to use the system without me.
[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_letter
[2]: http://xkcd.com/627/
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
I sure do love me some mans!
i notice this post like 15 minutes ago, and STILL no frist post?
aliens abducted everyone?
zat 2011 vill not be ze year of Linux on ze desktop :(
Strange indeed especially since the migration from Windows to open source was already regarded as a success... "The Foreign Office is now six years since into its successful IT Infrastructure increasingly on open source and had largely been unnoticed by the public" http://www.opensourcejahrbuch.de/download/jb2007/osjb2007-03-06-werner.pdf
Finally! :D
Too much time on their hands for iTunes, fancy Flash apps and Windows widgets!
Not good for Linux.
I wonder if there is a feedback loop back to the distributor/maintainers in these ventures? It will
The chairs will be spared.
probably the FIRST to make this transition from linux to windows?
Maybe it's time for Linux fans to realize that most people actually would rather pay 50 bucks for a Windows license and get rid of all the problems that come with open source products. I was a Linux user myself for several years and tried to convince and educate others about Linux. I saw people in my family giving Linux a fair shot to only revert back to Windows a while after. The reason is simple: after the thrill of using something new is gone, reality sets in and you're left with cryptic messages, poor user interface (yes, it's nowhere near the polish of Windows and Mac), inconsistent behavior between applications, poor driver support and the fact that few people (relatively speaking) know how to provide proper technical support.
"...also complained of missing brains, a lack of intelligence and poor eyes."
IT Department lacks knowledge and fine detail about how to make it work perfect for the office?
Let me translate that for you: Our brain dead paper pushers couldn't be arsed to learn the very basic things they need to know in order to use an office suite slightly different than Microsoft's. What do these people need, really, word and an e-mail client? Pffft.
Also I call bullshit on his driver claim.
One way or another this sucks. Any public service migrating from Windows to an Open Source solution and then back to Windows is a big missed opportunity by the FOSS community.
first post? how come?!
Why are they writing printer and scanner drivers? If they've been running this since 2001 (ie 10 years ago) then chances are any printers or scanners they bought prior to that have already been retired, so why the hell are they buying new printers and scanners which are not already compatible with what they use?
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necessarily .
Users will complain about anything.
One thing I've found out after a few years of rolling out software to companies with inefficient workflow, is that users absolutely hate change.
They are not really interested in the profits, or how something could perhaps work more efficiently ... they want to come into work, do the same job they did yesterday (easy) and go home to their families. They don't want to learn new systems or get their head around new implementations. That requires engaging the brain and interacting with the software rather than just clicking the same old buttons over and over.
There is also the fear of embracing a new software product which may make them redundant, so they resist and complain and wish things were the way they were before so they can go back to sleep for the rest of their 8 hour shift.
I think the days of people in business playing the dumb card ("I don't know anything about computers, I stay away from them!") are slowly dying. At some point it won't be acceptable to be dumb computer user or "IT illiterate" anymore than not being able to read about write is acceptable in most business environments today.
Governments will be even worse, everyone will have an opinion about what should be happening and the entire thing will drown in red tape. Can you imagine?!
Ultimately it's about giving the German public the very best value for their taxes they pay, who cares what the OS is? Linux or Windows, it'll always be poorly received by the users.
"Writing printer and scanner drivers" would be a one-time effort, no ?
http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
New guy at the top. Probably doesn't know where the save option is in Open Office.
Deleted
Not providing the details usually is a way of avoiding transparency.
For instance "writing printer and scanner drivers" ... do you actually still need a serial printer? I have used linux 15 years now, never had a problem with a printer (in the worst case Googling for it solved it in a matter of minutes).
"training" is another famous reason. "But Sir I usually click on the start button and then on the word icon" ... well if you cant find this "missing functionality" do you really need training? Millions of expensive consultant-overrated USD could have been saved if the user would actually devote some self-learning time (not to mention joining training session as a fun event).
My favorite is the "poor interoperability". Yeah right.... and BTW the wold is going down in 2012 so why care at all.
I understand not giving details for things like "lack of usability" but "missing functionality" and "poor interoperability" would be easy to give examples for. To make a switch back like this they should at least give something less vague. The important bit is at the end where Tillmann says their reasons are "not satisfactory" and "We need the figures".
The article makes this switch sound more political:
The Foreign Office launched a modernisation process in 2010, one component of which was the pursuit of a new IT strategy moving away from open source software and towards "standardised proprietary client solutions" as used in other ministries.
Not every OS is suitable for every job. IMHO Linux excels at server roles, kicks ass in embedded, but in desktops, where so much is still dependent on proprietary hardware? Not so much. And before anyone pipes in with "it works for you" well fine and dandy, but getting it to work for a single guy with infinite time to fiddle and look at forums is a hell of a lot different than getting it to fulfill all the roles a large org like this has.
So in the end I wouldn't say this means Linux fails, just that it didn't fit the role required and the cost to fit the square peg in the round hole simply wsn't cost effective. Happens all the time.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Instead of buying printers and scanners then looking drivers, they should have looked at the available drivers and THEN choose what to buy.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
"cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers"
why not just buy devices that already work ?
Someone needed their campaign finances bolstered. There is no way the cost of a few printer drivers could exceed the licenses for all the proprietary software they now need. And in ten years of using Linux on all my company's desktops and notebooks (except those Macs), I've never seen a printer that Linux did not support out of the box.
I remember the original project and the guy who led it, and it was clear that it was a success of technocratic merit over political bluster. A cheap, robust and *secure* computing infrastructure was what they got.
This is far from over, anyhow, someone is going to get caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.
My blog
Saw that one coming.
No, I can't believe it either.
What's this crap about having to write printer drivers when even devices less than $100 understand raw postscript and will work with anything from an Atari ST to the present?
Linux sucks.
Apple has "Mac vs PC", Microsoft has "Laptop Hunters", Linux has recession
Surely the money they are now going to invest in switching back could be used to finish off writing whatever missing drivers and interoperability are left to do? I guess this demonstrates Microsoft's 'long game' of making it extremely difficult to move from their system.
As Tillman stated in TFA, "the costs of licensing Windows and MS Office throughout the department would cover the costs of programming a hell of a lot of drivers". I mean, come on, this smells fishy from a mile away. They need to come clean.
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Sovereign countries should use sovereign software! And protect this way their very own assets !
Is there any risk calculation availabe- for the existence of firmware trojans/bootloaders in IT equipment from abroad? (US, PRC, Taiwan, S-Korea ...)
I guess this demonstrates Microsoft's skill in making it extremely difficult to move from their systems, even a few years down the line.
Surely the money they will spend moving back to Windows could be used to pay people to finish off the missing interoperability they are complaining about?
So in fact it is acknowledging its de facto lockin to the Windows-platform...
Linux fanboys must have gone back to their basement...
Come on, printer drivers? You got to be kidding. Today, the worst operating system regarding printers is, by far, windows. Especially on the hp side..
Taken at face value, the excuses presented are silly. Simple math will show you that the cost of outfitting the entire place with Windows 7 and Office licenses alone would cover quite a bit of training and driver development. Not to mention how they seem to be focused on just desktops while leaving servers alone? What unsurmountable obstacle suddenly appeared, after they seemed to have been using OO, Firefox and Thunderbird for so long?
Not saying it's completely implausible, but I'd like to see some cold hard figures and facts for both scenarios.
i ate crayons when i was a kid and now i have two braincells and the blue ones taste nicer
Leaving aside the technical comparisons between Windows and Linux, I do not believe that governments should be running closed-source software on their machines. Why:
One, security. No one knows what proprietary software is capable of. Can you trust it to run on a government machine and to (presumably) handle important and sensitive information for the feds? No one knows, because it's closed source. Use of open source software ensures that there are no backdoors and such that could be used by, say, a foreign government.
Two, practicality. Use of open source software allows governments to tweak their systems exactly as needed.
Three, ideology. Any government that claims to serve its citizens should be running open source software in the interests of transparency.
Further reading on the subject: Why the government of Peru ditched Windows. http://web.archive.org/web/20070829215908/http://www.gnu.org.pe/resmseng.html
Bwahahahahaha!!!
... tumbled.
has a strong grasp upon them.
Of course, it's actually the proprietary systems, programs and formats that are at fault for poor interoperability, but the reality is it doesn't matter if the evil lock-inners that have cornered the market are to blame, the foreign office has to get it's job done.
Free software has a better chance in many other places, while working towards the goal of good interoperability, when everyone can finally shed their shackles.
Some of my favourite people are from th US; Vonnegut, Chomsky, Bill Hicks.
Summing up the article in one sentence for those who don't want to read it:
"The costs of licensing Windows and MS Office throughout the department would cover the costs of programming a hell of a lot of drivers"
Until such time that Linux can match functionality, and "just work" not just a handful (or even a large subset) off the shelf printers, plotters, scanners, etc, but expensive wide-format plotters, scanners, and other large Line-Of-Business machines that only have drivers for Windows and maybe OSX, Linux will never dominate like Windows has done, not to mention Line-Of-Business software (like for example, our construction-specific accounting system) that is ONLY written for Windows clients and to be parked on a Windows server. While the GFO might be simply processing documents, email, and browsing the web, most businesses tend to more operational work, and a large portion software and hardware infrastructure just runs on Windows.
It would be nice to know what fos sw were they using. Is it just desktop stuff like ffox/thunderbird with openoffice or maybe enterprise sw like alfresco as well? Or would that be server sw that they intend to keep.
On another note, I don't get the point about scanner drivers. Do they have a stockpile of scanners from before 2005 that they could not use for lack of linux drivers and now they can use again? Would not they need to retire them by now (probably being usb 1.1)? How difficult would it be to buy the scanners that actually have drivers for linux? Or did they already get the linuxdrivers made? In that case, how will migrating to MS cut costs? Will the coder refund the drivers, if the Ministry does not need them anymore?
I'm not really surprised to see this here on Slashdot, but I find it interesting that rather than taking the criticism to heart, and finding ways to fix the problems that are listed, most of the replies so far are accusatory or dismissing.
Instead of taking the information and using it to improve future products, many advocates here seem to just be shouting "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!" You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, as the saying goes...
The cost of adapting and extending it, for example in writing printer and scanner drivers, and of training, have proved greater than anticipated.
That is the cost of not requiring open standards: German government ability to upgrade their systems now depends on manufacturer cooperation, because that is the only reasonable way to get drivers for their devices.
They are having problems with Linux, and they might have problems with Windows 8, or whatever future migration they want; PostScript is a standard that will always be supported, their current SecretProtocol.dll won't.
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Just when Linux started getting really better on the desktop (gtk3, Unity, btrfs, upcoming Wayland etc etc) the Germans start giving up. What can you say...
Don't mistake this as a conspiracy. As a Linux user during the last ten years I can understand the complaints of those, who just want to get their daily work done. IMHO currently there is only Oo.org and Evolution delivering something that comes as close to an office environment as linux software can. And they suck in many functions.
On the other hand a lot of effort is invested in irrelvant developer fun projects like Plasma, a plethora of docks, desktop toys and the like. Which is perfectly valid, since somebody doing things for free can just concentrate on the fun stuff of course. Not to speak about the time wasted in ideologic warfare...
So, where is the corporate backup of desktop Linux? Canonical? Is economically spoken a microbe and does not have considerable developer capacity. And they are still getting blamed for not doing enough commits to the Linux kernel.
Why should anybody be surprised by this happening now?
Funny fact: I have two (HP) mutifuncional printers that have no 64-bit drivers for Windows, yet work great in Linux. In fact, coupled with SaneTwain -- http://sanetwain.ozuzo.net/ , we can even use the scanner on the Windows network!
"Users have, it claims, ... missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability.""
Sounds familiar.
is maintainability. we have around 150 desktops here where i work (all servers except one run linux) and we were thinking about migrating the desktops to linux. i have used linux exclusively as a desktop OS for the last 8 years (also at work, i am a programmer), but i have to agree that it's just not possible to run and maintain a mid- to large scale client network of linux desktop computers. here's why:
1.) linux aims at providing the most possible freedom to its users
this is what you don't want when you administer hundreds of computers. you want the possibility to restrict the user as much as possible, so that they don't break everything all the time and require your assistance.
2.) AD, logonscripts, group policies, authentication
again the same story. linux is built from ground up to fulfill the user's wishes, not the admin's. just take for example some very basic thing like browser-settings. you cannot force firefox, konqueror, opera or whatever to use a proxy server while inhibiting the users to change it themselves. (yes transparent proxying but that sucks). it looks like chrome is trying to make something like that possible with the policies.d directory, but this is not widely available. the whole configuration-concept of unix-based programs is to load system-wide settings first, and let the user override them. windows' concept is exactly the other way around, which is why it is so successful in companies.
what is also done very well on windows is the logon process. no matter if the PDC is there you can still use your computer. did you ever try that on linux with /home mounted via NFS? impossible. kerberos and ldap auth are a step in the right direction on the server side, but client support for these things is poor at best.
3.) MS office
this point can be illustrated ad infinitum, so i won't go into details, but eveyone who actually works with office documents that contains at least macros, pivots or charts will agree that openoffice/libreoffice is not usable there, as soon as you need to be compatible with clients. MS access is another story of its own.
4.) printing
cups has improved a lot over the years, but there are still lots of specific printer features that you cannot use if you use cups. this is why we have exactly 1 windows server. especially larger printers (in the 3-10k euro area) work only half-assed via cups. either you cannot do accounting or page stats, or you cannot privilege jobs or whatever.
5.) ACL
there is no possibility to set ACLs via a gui on linux. also posix acls suck. i am very happy to see that nfs4 acls are more and more adopted, but there is still a long way to go until they will be widely available. you can just not explain some sales guy or client service lady how to use setfacl to share a document with a different group via commandline, when all they have to do in windows is check a checkbox.
it breaks my heart to say this as a long time linux user and open source developer, but linux on the corporate desktop is an illusion. not because linux is bad, but because the concept is fundamentally incompatible with what administrators of hundreds if clients need.
Rule #2: Build solitaire directly into clones of word and excel.
You mean like this?
Move Sig. For great justice.
There is something to be said about commercially accepted drivers and software comparability.
The PC video game industry has managed to get trapped into DirectX out of lazyness; the logic is: our codebase uses DirectX, we know it cripples porting to other platforms but we cant be bothered to rewrite the codebase based on less proprietary APIs (OpenGL/OpenAL/OpenCL in this case)
Now you see companies like Valve who basically put all their eggs in the DirectX basket having (rather succesfuly however) to modify their codebase for OpenGL costing them time and money in the process. Should they have used OpenGL right from the start this would not be happening and they would have had Source games running on many more platforms straight away.
This is similar to the Germans here, they started using Windows (because it is the "standard" everybody is using it blahblahblah marketing... incentives from Microsoft...) and got lazy and got used to it, they probably started exploiting strange bugs in Office to get stuff done the way they want (bugs that obviously are probably not in OpenOffice), got used to dealing with Windows quirks and possibly even started thinking of them as features (like possibly guest logins by default, im just speculating here). Now that they were asked to move to another system with different (I am resisting the urge to say less because even though I am a tux lover I know linux isn't perfect) quirks they feel that "interoperability" and "features" are not the same...
The question is: should linux distros implement some of Windows's bugs/"features"/quirks to make people feel more at home ?
I am probably going to get modded down as usual, for obscure reasons... but that is my take on things. People love Windows quirks, hell I grew fond myself of the constant scratching of my hard drive at idle (swap activity, updates, indexing? who knows!) in Windows, I ended up thinking it was *cute* even though the Linux geek in me know it was just so wrong... (PS: does anyone know how I can make a HD scratch in a similar way in Linux? I miss it, i truly do, that cute little *sccrgrrrscrr*)
lack of usability = not 100% like Windows
poor interoperability = does not open .docx files
missing functionality = cannot run Windows applications
writing printer and scanner drivers = win printers don't run in Linux
the cost of adapting and extending it have proved greater than anticipated = there is no commission in open source software for the politicians
Personally, I seriously doubt that it was the Linux that caused the problem. My guess is open office. While I generally prefer windows to Linux, I'm a big fan of open source software. Open Office is the very worst the open source ecosystem has to offer though. It's buggy, poor compatibility, slow, limited features, features not working like they should. Most people treat it like software that gets the basics done admirably but struggles with advanced features. I totally disagree with that. Open Office gets almost nothing done admirably. I think if they had tried to switch to Linux/Google Docs they might have found more purchase. I have seen OO torpedo lots more people's opinions of the quality of open source software than I have seen any other package elevate them.
One has to wonder if this is simply MS going after OpenOffice installs now that the OOo community is distracted and caught up in the LibreOffice fork. MS now can point the finger to Oracle as being just as rotten, if not worse than MS is, and can point out that you are going to have to migrate to LibreOffice anyway, so you can pick your migration poison.
-- $G
One of my main complaints I've had from working within MS Office environments was exactly "missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability". The number of hoops to jump through to consistently and reliably get data from their flagship spreadsheet into their flagship SQL platform is mind boggling. Also, I don't remember getting *any* training for MS Office products, so it looks like it could be the invalid comparison between not training people who *don't* know how to use MS Office and training people who then *will* know how to use open tools.
at the heart of this are kickbacks and bribes by Microsoft, but I bet the printers they're talking about are very specialized ones either for large formats for GIS work or documents that require a lot of features for authenticity and security (read: licenses and passports). I assume the manufacturers of these specialized machines have ardently refused to provide Linux drivers to the German government, either via direct orders from Redmond or in fear of being Chaired (folding or otherwise) by Steve Ballmer.
Rule #2: Build solitaire directly into clones of word and excel. Rule #3: Build facebook games directly into all office apps.
Rules #2 and #3 are really, really stupid. Unfortunately for the world, they're probably also correct.
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
Like for example a new foreign minister who is only able to use windows.
Incumbent Guido Westerwelle since 28 October 2009
Coincidence of course.
Deleted
i've always maintained that linux is a poor desktop OS for non-gearheads. if the most gearheaded nation in the world, germany, gave it up, this is the reason. linux gets in the way of getting actual work done. remember those PC vs Mac commercials? they're equivalent to Linux vs. PC. i've seen friends futz around with Linux in the time that it takes me to finish the work at hand. lack of printer drivers was named as one problem. is there a reason that windows printer drivers (of which there are very many) can't be co-opted by writing a bridge to them?
Isnt it better to skip Windows7 since it can be replaced with Windows8 in 2012.
This is purely a political decision, obviously. You should never underestimate the stupidity of users trying to get their work done. Users should just ignore the problems they experience and accept the fact that the Linux community knows better than they do what works best and costs least.
'Writing printer drivers' really?
Change buying criteria to include linux compatability. Printers have a finite life, can be retired with the windows boxen as the move progresses resulting in the ability to go either forward to an oss future or back to a closed software base. Got to be cheaper than writing your own drivers and keeps your options.
Clue stick never gets dusty.
and many other Foreign Offices around the world.
Not to speak of that sovereign countries should use sovereign software
where is the risk analysis for a backdoor/firmware trojan in IT products coming from certain countries? ( US, PRC, Taiwan etc.. )
Actually, MS will allow governments to inspect the source code. It's not much good for spotting bugs, as with Open Source's "thousand eyes", but it is useful in allowing governments to check for deliberate sabotage.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
More software makes a better OS. Microsoft, Apple, Google, and every OS, project or language depends on the programmers. Linux has few programmers, some of who work only on a part-time basis. Efforts to get more coders, like Google's Summer of Code, are some of the most efficient efforts to promote open source. I favor efforts that reward or incentivate open-source coders, such as awards, competitions, the threshold pledge system, or RSPP-Rational Street Performer Protocol, stuff like that. So people can freely code open-source stuff at leisure, and have reasonable expectations of achieving more than publishing the code and peer recognition, in case the project comes out good.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
Hiring people to write drives for the printers you have? Are you for real? You people are so blinded by Linux, that you don't see the reality of the situation. Listen, you have an organization that has 10,000 people, with thousands of mobile phones/printers/webcams/peripherals etc. What do you think you pay Microsoft a year to license Windows 7, Exchange and Office? I can tell you one thing, you're not paying retail price. In fact, from my experience, they'd be paying less than 10 euros per employee. So let's take 10 euros a head for 10,000 people - you're looking at 100 grand a year. How many people do you think 100 grand can hire that are able to program printer drivers for Linux. I would guess one. Then you need a load more people that support this entire system. Going the Microsoft route, you just get some low paid guy that has a Microsoft Certification to admin the whole system. These things are made to work out of the box with each other, and generally it works like that. Then everyone has the software they are used to, they all have their mail/contacts/calendar synced to their phones just as they like it, you can purchase any devices because they are all going to be compatible with Windows and you get support and professional software from Microsoft (yes, professional, please don't try to compare Open Office with MS Office, or even Linux on the Desktop with Windows 7). It makes sense to run Linux on servers where you have to have professionals running them anyway. But for an office environment, you're never, ever going to achieve the cost and productivity under Linux that you do under Windows all things considered.
The penguin doesn't give bribes, commissions, spiff or any monetary incentive to corrupt IT managers. Windows vendors/VARs might.
I think the best bets for Linux/open source these days are the myriad small systems that are coming out, and home users. The small systems are as far away from Wintel as can be. Home users on the other hand are relatively easy to please, they use fewer apps, and they choose freely. I think they also make great research for usability, they are more accessible, etc. It's easier to get a Linux desktop that will please millions of teenagers to switch voluntarily that convince corporate sleuths that all their functionality will be available.
Build your own energy sources from scratch. http://otherpower.com/
training i can understand, but scanner and printer drivers?
unless we are talking something very old and/or very obscure, and then it is just as much a issue with a recent version of windows unless the company "making" (who do that any more?) the hardware is onboard to continue updates (and then they could just as well do it for linux unless the update involves basically a recompile for a more recent version of visual-c++), it should be supported by cups and sane.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
My Windows printer doesn't work with MacOS X!
It's a printer fault! Buy a Mac printer!
My Windows printer doesn't work well with Linux!
Linux sucks!
Specifically, this means a return to Windows XP, to be upgraded at some point to Windows 7, Office 2010 and Outlook. According to the government, this will not give rise to any immediate costs, indeed, they expect introduction of these "standardised software products" to produce "efficiency gains".
If they are going to install XP, to be upgraded to Windows 7 and use Office 2010 and Outlook, how will that be accomplished without a rise to any immediate costs? Maybe they have the XP licenses from the original desktops that were purchased, but what about the Win7 and Office? This smells like one of those times where Microsoft is giving the software away for free. Of course, I guess all of that software will magically install itself, too, so there won't be any increased cost there, either.
As for the efficiency gains, I can see if they receive a lot of complex docx files that OpenOffice might not be ideal. However, unless Microsoft Office is going to make them type faster, think clearer and faster, what efficiency gains are to be had? If there problem is printer drivers, well, maybe instead of converting back it would be less expensive and gain more efficiencies to purchase printers that are known to work, like mainstream HP, Canon, etc.
The claim that the ROI has not been what they had hoped. Well, I'm pretty sure ripping it all out and starting over again wrecks havoc with any ROI. That is of course unless Microsoft is footing the bill.
Typewriters are fine for printing envelopes. Better actually. Wish I had one. But I saw a funny scene on TV recently: mad dude brings in a typewriter and the young people are all covering their ears.
About games, I put together computers with some middle school students recently. Had Ubuntu preloaded on the drives for them. Once the power was on, they had found and were running the Ubuntu games before I could turn around! Not the teacher's intention. We soon switched to Perl scripting.
printer and scanner driverswe have printer and scanner drivers. This is radiculious. Feeling sad...
"The Foreign Office launched a modernisation process in 2010, one component of which was the pursuit of a new IT strategy moving away from open source software and towards "standardised proprietary client solutions" as used in other ministries. Specifically, this means a return to Windows XP, to be upgraded at some point to Windows 7, Office 2010 and Outlook. According to the government, this will not give rise to any immediate costs, indeed, they expect introduction of these "standardised software products" to produce "efficiency gains". Open source software will continue to be used on servers"
I'm sure no one will read this but anyways, my 2 cents in using Ubuntu.
I made the switch for a year and it was generally fine. However there was always something not working right. A printer or scanner driver didn't work, or the wireless driver didn't work, or I had a boot error (abrupt power off) and it took a long time to fix... etc. These were minor issues that all eventually got resolved and I learned how to use the shell and how Linux worked. I was happy.
Then I started graduate school. There was compatibility issues with Word and Excel (the Openoffice version of Excel was terrible). Writer was fine, however it had issues with converting equations. So basically using Openoffice for collaborations was a no-go. Then there was software issues, where some was available only for Windows. Then licensing, where our school had site licenses for Windows but not Linux. While I suppose I could have fiddled with Wine, it eventually because cumbersome and I switched back to Windows.
So I can imagine how an office would have issues. The support to fix users' Linux issues would be much higher than Windows (both due to higher user inexperience and diversity of problems), and there would likely be extensive driver issues.
I loved the stability and ease of use of the Linux backend/shell, and I hate the dumbed-down Windows look (particular 7). But I have to use what is compatible with everyone else.
German Government: "Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
The rule is always; "User-Curve actually is generational." Microsoft and Win* has dogmatic converts, most of them know little to nothing about change and technology, and explicit-policy career-managers (includes CIO/CTO) are career-safety conscious never innovative.
Until, small-Biz (implicit governance) becomes big-Biz competitor, most institutional (explicit governance) organization, processes, and policy will remain adverse to (risk) technology and change. Initial big-Biz reaction to innovative small-Biz competition is reactionary with anti-compete buy-laws, buy-out small-Biz, or feeble copy, crash, repeat attempts until marginal success or failure is achieved by reaction (not reason).
Governments (like big-Biz) are institutional (explicit governance) organization, processes, and policy. Their planned purpose, with potential for good or bad, is stability (economic, market, institution, culture), control, and survival.
IMO: L/FOSS-Linux adoption for users and managers has a higher probability of implementation-transition in small-Biz, child education, and academic classrooms. Big-Biz is highly successful at planning strategic reality, but frequently fails at achieving actuality.
IOW: Reality is pie in the sky (high hopes), until there is actual transformational experience, change, innovation. The actual (Generational User-Curve) transformational experience, change, innovation for the German government is unlikely, unless the educational system is capable of producing (as flexible as many of /. users) the future managers and users. So, yes, big-Biz/governments could eventually evolve a more apt, agile, flexible functionality, but actually, though not explicitly, they are always against the unknown.
To evolve a more apt, agile, flexible functionality in the workforce/workplace there should be a mix of MS, OSS/Linux, Apple... users/platforms. Let the users pick their platforms for productivity. WebSOA, standards, and applications can assure appropriate and adequate interoperability (planned reality requires actual vendor compliance).
I started using Apple with a Motorola MC68000 running CP/M in 1984. Then in 1991 Microsoft and Win* started infesting the office workspace. At home I am a Linux user (1995...Present), today at work only Microsoft and Win* compliant products are ever used.
I remember the behavior of the managers and office workers to changes in technology and staff (from 1984...Present). Managers and workers constantly tag change and technology (the great unknowns) as waste that causes problems, failures... evil. Blame-Storming (in Biz today) always starts with the evils of change and technology, until the innovators are identified, and career-penalized as the cause of change and technology plagues.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
my wife works at a major newspaper. her sales reps get microsoft word documents from clients they can't use. guess what? they have office 2000 still. guess what? their clients have 2007+ guess what? I'm aware it is a simple free download and install of some sort of package from microsoft to fix the problems. guess what? her corporate IT department still hasn't installed it, 4 years after the fact. guess what, that hit doesn't show in reports of users complaining of interoperability problems that are FUD about the linux desktop.\ \which sucks.
Users have, it claims, also complained of missing functionality, a lack of usability and poor interoperability."
Gee, flame me if you want, but it sounds to me like they were using linux in a windows world, not a linux world. You'll have those problems.
For day to day office things - documents, emails, internet, that kind of stuff, why couldn't they have been perfectly productive if everyone was using the same platform. Interoperability? With what? Windows? That's the problem. If everyone you interact with is using linux, you won't have windows interoperability problems.
From reading TFA it seems like not everything was switched. Some things were dual boot. They mentioned having to write their own drivers for things like scanners. Why not get scanners that work with linux?
I'm getting ready to switch back to linux for my work desktop. I have been using windows 7 since it came out, but now I think I can get along better with a win7 VM and a good linux desktop. When I was last using linux I recall it working just fine with printers and scanners. In fact I was most impressed when linux dutifully went out on it's own and found ALL the printers on the network and started grabbing drivers. I was able to do everything I needed to do being the only linux station amongst a world of windows boxes. I hooked up an old hp scan/print device (with a dead print, but working scan) and it got the driver on it's own. I needed to scan something and I opened gimp and hit "acquire" and boom, there's my scan. No hassles or config required.
Sounds to me like more is going on than TFA is letting on. I think the microsoft marketing team has been hard at work.
Flappinbooger isn't my real name
It's SO much easier to migrate to Linux when all the apps operate primarily within the browser. My organization has been pushing to get every app we can running out of the browser using standards based (non IE specific) approaches.
Its not easy though. The fact of the matter is (and Apple is a good example) that developers still have much more flexibility and options to create desktop applications that are more feature rich and have that "bling" polish about them then your standard web app. People will continue to want to use word, excel and powerpoint until they can be convinced that using a web based alternative is better.
It's hard enough to get my mom to stop using Word and use google docs instead (even though she bitches every time she forgets where she saved that damn word file). People are loath to dump their broken way of doing things if it gets the job done...even if that means in a hobbled inefficient way.
From a practical point of view, we need indeed more interoperability in the form of binary compatibility to Windows -- both to Windows apps via Wine, and to Windows drivers with some shim. Something like this has already been done in the past: think of FreeBSD's Linux ABI (Linuxulator) or NDIS shims. And, of course, most of the coding (PE-COFF loader, win32s libs) is already there as in Wine. All it needs is some coding and packaging efforts to make Windows Binary Compatibility as seamless and as transparent as possible on a Linux/BSD/Solaris/Unix/... box. I don't say: drop the current Linux/Unix ABI, I say, add Windows ABIs to the mix.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
In other words: They are able to do their jobs now with what they have and you want to "help" them continue doing their jobs by making them learn something new.
I made money modernizing offices, and the attitude you have shown is counter-productive.
The number one error that office managers seem to make is buying a PC with a word processor and a spreadsheet program and installing it on each employee's desk. After which they instruct the employee to learn how to use it, and quickly go to their superior and brag about how they modernized the office. The mistake being that no effort was made to understand why the employee was so productive, and giving the employee a general purpose tool to replace what they were accustomed to using. This results in the employee having to learn something new "to make someone else's job easier" and the employee "knowing" that the office manager is trying to make himself indispensable by introducing something into the workplace that only he understands.
In one of the offices that I "modernized" there was an employee that used a typewriter to keep up with the inventory. It worked flawless for him, and since the trucks arrived very early in the morning, he had all workday to do the tallies. He would white out the totals and add new truckloads to the bottom of the list, cross out the truckloads that were no longer at the warehouse, add up all the numbers, and put a new total at the bottom of the list. He would then make photocopies of his "master list" and send them to the other office workers. He did this every day for the past 15 years, and he was able to do all this quickly (much faster than I thought possible). I was able to "win him over" by creating a specialized spreadsheet application that allowed him to continue to work the way he was accustomed to, and he saw that the instantaneous totals made his job easier. The key was to make the software conform to the worker.
Today I see the reverse being done. Terminals that had forms that the data entry clerk could quickly fill in are being replaced with window machines running software that don't even come close to being the same thing. Worse I've seen terminals being replaced by windows machines running terminal emulators. This shows a lack of thought by IT. No wonder employees despise them. Of course IT people are accustomed to windows, so they don't see why the employees are so problematic...
I did this all in the 80's when personal computers in the office were new. I'd thought people would have it easier today.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Actually, MS will allow governments to inspect the source code. It's not much good for spotting bugs, as with Open Source's "thousand eyes", but it is useful in allowing governments to check for deliberate sabotage.
You can only avoid deliberate sabotage if you can compile this code with a third party compiler, and run the version you compiled yourself -- but I guess that's not allowed or probably even not possible. Otherwise, Microsoft could easily give you a sane source code and a sabotaged binary. I'm not saying they do it, but if you need the source code to be convinced that there is no backdoor, you also need to compile it yourself.
It is interesting that so many people want to blame the government for deciding that Linux as a Desktop doesn't work for them. There are comments here stating "well, just dump the incompatible hardware and buy other stuff". I suppose if the government had an agenda to promote Linux, sure, spend all that money and time to change around an otherwise working infrastructure to suit a black sheep desktop O/S. But that is not their agenda - they have a job to get done. I've heard techies make this mistake all the time - they think that people are just going to change everything to suit their tech needs. It doesn't happen in the real world because it represents cost and time that is of no benefit to achieving the customer's goals (note - I am a Linux software developer and architect/develop a Linux-based enterprise software product - I am speaking from direct, first hand experience). Techies also do not seem to understand that what may be acceptable, perhaps even fun, for them is a non-started for the other 90% of the population. The moment you have to compile something to get your desktop to work, its all over. I have a Shuttle XS35 on my desk right now that I am going to run Linux on - and I have spent days working around a lack of Linux hardware support to get the box functional (and there are still two pieces of hardware I've not got working). Ask anyone about the joys of getting wireless to work under Linux. As a desktop for non-techies Linux has a long ways to go. As a server platform that is maintained by a trained IT staff, Linux is great. Don't blame the messenger (the German government in this case) just because you don't like what the facts are stating.
he couldn't format it to the peculiar formatting rules in his office (A bizarre format not compatible with any of the standardized Business Letter styles[1]), and requires you to fumble around with the bulleting, tabbing and rulers. And those things didn't behave like they did in his Office 97 or whatever.
The interesting question is: if he had to migrate to the next version of Microsoft Office, would he have been to do this fumbling around by himself? I don't use any office suite myself, but I guess that the interface can change a bit from one version to the other, even if you keep using the "standardised proprietary client solutions".
...was to make a secure intranet.
Now they're moving to Windows XP.
Secure
XP
Secure.
XP
SECURE?
XP?
And the reasoning is scanner und printer drivers.
http://www.google.com/images?q=jackie+chan+my+mind+is+full+of+fuck
My next thing on my todo list is to scatter thumb drives in the parking lot of the nearest German Consulate for the lulz.
--
BMO
This is a completely spurious line of thinking. Seriously, where does this kind of paranoia come from? Im not saying it is not possible, but stating it like it is fact is just absurd. And modding it up as insightful is reinforcing that absurdity.
Likely Scenarios
1) They have a special use printer (someone mentioned Zebras above) that they had to create drivers for (I had this same issues with Linux based thin clients connecting to my citrix servers)
2) MS gave them a hell of a bargain to get back onto Windows/Office
3) Users did complain as you asserted. Although I would argue that the use of the word addicted is very ‘fox news-esque’ in that it implies that users wanting to use a tool they were familiar with equates with addiction. Lazy and showing lack of ability to embrace new things, but how is THAT a surprise to anyone.
4) There was some kind of backroom/unethical deal, in which case a corruption case is warranted. I could see this happening, especially when combined with #2. Give the people a reason to be shortsighted and send them to a ‘seminar’ for 2 weeks at a coastal resort as a reward. That kind of thing.
This is a case where I think the anal retentive nature of the German government might be useful is getting to the bottom of which of the cases above (or one I have not thought of) is the real culprit. I would assume that whatever the equivalent of the GAO in Germany has some real teeth.
But just being a bigoted asshole and accusing someone (or in this case multiple someone’s) of being an criminal does nothing to further the case for ensuring ethical behavior and just makes you look like a rabid douchebag. I swear, every day it seems like I see more and more examples of people being extreme asswipes. Apple, Google, Lunix, xtian, Muslim, Spain vs Basque separatists, boxers vs briefs, pop vs soda, ect ect etc. It’s all meaningless bullshit. In the end this is simply a fucking Os. A desktop OS at that.
Maybe it’s just a get off my lawn thing, but why can people just look at things rationally without getting whatever irrational crutch they gravitate to get in the way.....
you don't need better programmers, you need better designers for the interface. Unfortunately, windowze has "programmed" the average user to double-click, find printers in device panel, etc etc.
Maybe they will realize this cost and take up using linux- all over again!
Yes, all Macs nowadays have built-in wireless. However, not all of them (such as my older Powerbook G4) have built in .11n wireless. If I could find a compatible .11n stick, that would be one less machine I'd have to carry on the .11g side of my home network.
It's Debian proper that made me want to slit my wrists. I ran Debian for years without too many issues, but as of a couple of years ago, literally every. single. update was breaking my damn machine, to the point where I would have to wipe and reinstall the OS. I finally got fed up, blew away Debian, and installed Ubuntu. LIfe's been good since then.
You are aware that the largest PC maker in the world has the buttons on the other side as well?
I have a neighbour whose IQ is pretty low. Nice enough woman but limited in her intelligence. So she often had problems with her PC which she used for nothing more then IM and online free games. Naturally as an IT guy I was asked to help with Windows problems until I installed Ubuntu for her, added flash and gave myself ssh access to her machine. Never needed it in over a year now. It just works. So well in fact that she has asked for her sisters kids old laptop to be switched as well because kids are even worse for accidently installing crapware. No complaint from the child either, about 6 years old.
So a woman with an IQ well below average and a 6 year old can handle buttons on the left. But you can't. Or do you simply not want to because you hate any change period and just want to whine?
As for Ubuntu updates breaking something... right... it might but it hasn't happened to me on over a dozen machines in years. And I mess around a LOT with my setup because I am a nerd. But I do have a windows gaming machine which occasionally develops a phantom network card, can't sort out which audio output to use, looses connect to samba shares (while linux, a mac and even my android phone keep the connection open) etc etc. Ain't anecdotes wonderful pieces of evidence.
No, I think what that the problem is simple in Germany. Government workers are well known for being highly resistant to change. Add to this a healthy dose of missed dinners paid for by the sales rep and it is very hard to get anything changed. Note that the same resistance was once encountered by Microsoft.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Really, this isn't hard, it is government. Just write in your spec it needs Linux support and then buy the printer that has it. This isn't some small shop that has to buy whatever is available in the local shop, it is the government. Anyway, they buy big brands, not from this non-player who can't even support unixes.
Do you know what REAL government use for printers? Machines that RUN Solaris as their OS. Betcha those got linux "drivers". It is a whole different ball park.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
What is intresting to note is that their has been a regime change in Germany that might well be the cause of this. The switch was made under a left-wing government. Recently a right-wing government came into being and MS made some promises to invest and gosh, a switch back to windows is announced... how surprising.
But the war is not yet lost. The right-wing government has been clobbered in recent elections and the left is smelling blood and asking questions already, the same questions being asked here such as what the hell the driver issue is supposed to be. The German left-wing parties ain't swallowing the BS either. Don't expect this to be a done deal.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Wouldn't it have made more sense as a Gov to put out an announcement to the German people and say "We need printer drivers" for Linux. If you would like to write the drivers this is the hardware we need drivers for. Write them and you get a nice national pat on the back and possibly a new job from a tech company. Win win for every one.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Thanks for proving a point I have made here before, & that point is shown by the downward moderations of my initial post here:
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2006166&cid=35279232
Downward moderated, but... With NO technical justification behind it for downmodding me...
After all: I only used documented, concrete, & verifiable FACTS (which the "helpless henry's" around here on /. that are "Pro-*NIX Penguin FUD spreaders" cannot dispute - period!) & yet, I was down moderated? Please...
Don't you fools realize that by down-modding me, others who see that post will read it & think "wtf? Why was he down modded for??"
APK
P.S.=> After all, IF they could? They would have not only down-modded my init. post, but said why & where I was in error...
Now, of course, you NEVER see that, lol - You see only their attempts @ "burying" my post, facts in it or not (can't have that - even MORE folks might leave Linux, and thus, leave the "henry's" here in the dust too)... apk
1) They have a special use printer (someone mentioned Zebras above)
They claim they had to write drivers. I do not believe this ever happened.
that they had to create drivers for (I had this same issues with Linux based thin clients connecting to my citrix servers)
Citrix does its best to make their products impossible to use with Linux. It uses Linux in many of those products, but they still are only usable with Windows clients, so no sane person will use them in any Linux-based setup.
The only printers that I have seen unsupported by CUPS, are hopelessly obsolete or extra-cheap models specifically made for sporadic home use. Anyone who keeps those in a government or company office should be fired because those things have truly astronomical cost in in toner/ink, service and wasted time after they jam.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I am not surprise. Linux is mature in server but desktop is shit. Sorry geeks, learn to be more social and pay attention to users, we do not want gnome kde lxde etc. Too many choices means watered down options and ideas, work on one or two things and make them good. I will get flame for this since its easier then admitting the facts. Wireless does not work right, sound its a joke unless you tweak, apt-get and rpm installers are a good idea but people want to do double click, get it? Now back to the basements or "offices" beat one quick and think of what I said and this might get you some recognition and get laid. Being unique is not always best.
No solitaire game!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
From that very same parent post...
In my own experience of getting ordinary people to use computers, Linux computers needed a lot more fiddling then Windows machines.
It's not the price - it's the quantity.
After all, any fiddling would be performed by hired employees who get the same paycheck one way or the other.
But, if the quantity of daily fiddling needed exceeds the quantity of fiddling provided daily by the hired technical staff... costs WILL rise.
Either through downtime, or through overtime, or through hiring more staff, or through training costs, or all of the above.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I think you are referring to the Ribbons. And no, even *I* can't use those properly, and I am a non-C.Sci. guy who some how managed to install Ubuntu Hoary Hedgehog back in the day.
(seriously, where is the change font case button on that god forsaken ribbon, anybody know?)
His own laptop has that version of office (2003?), but he comes to my PC for this very reason, and that's the same reason his office hasn't upgraded to the ribboned version.
I am an ACCA student. Got a query on Accountancy/Finance? Maybe I can help!
I find him to be religiously offensive.
Yay!
2011 -- the year of Windows on the desktop!
"A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
I run Chinese M$ software without getting the usual malware!
1. Someone makes a ministry-wide purchase of printers/scanners/miscellaneous USB devices, HP or otherwise, then finds out there are no functional drivers. Maybe even video driver nonsense, although that should not be an issue unless you need 3D. Wireless drivers. .doc files received from outside the island of Linux users aren't always readable by OpenOffice, OpenOfice .doc files sent to the rest of the Bundesrepublik crash inside MS Word, Crosswhatever solution for running MS Word under Linux eliminates cost savings. OpenOffice/LibreOffice is ugly to look at and MS Word import/export is not reliable. Pdf viewing isn't even there 100% under KDE 4 or Gnome 2.x; acroread is flaky.
2. Bigger reasons:
3. There is some piece of expensive custom software, designed locally so it makes sense to a nation of VW owners, whose use is required: security, legacy database, mandated use of umlauts, something. And it only runs under XP.
Actually, they changed. They changed to Linux on desktop, stick on it for arround 4 years, and now they are changing it agin, back to Windows. It seem to me they have no problem about chaging at all.
You said Windoze instead of Windows. That's hilarious.
2012 will be the year of Linux on the desktop!
This is exactly my problem with CUPS/Linux printing. You add the driver, print a test page and seeing the output think you're done. Until you print 5 pages and pages 2-5 are blank. Or you select grayscale print and find ALL colored areas to be lost, instead of converted to shades of gray. It's not like my HP Deskjet is rare either.
It's a bunch of people who have to accept and send documents to a bunch of backward places like the United States. No other office would be more hounded and pressed by the idiots sending everything from wordstar to Microsoft .docx files.
Given the amount of effort Microsoft makes to make sure that they can use other formats but nobody else can use theirs fully, it is no wonder that the one place where the German government rubs up against the rest of the world the most often would have the most problems avoiding Microsoft contamination.
This is not an indictment of Linux at all, it is further proof that Microsoft secret innards should be considered harmful to all comers.
Interoperability of _Microsoft_ products with all others is _extremely_ low. And training anybody, let alone a bunch of diplomats, exactly how to hop through all the hoops to access a readable version of a .docx file sent from abroad is a non-trivial task.
It is easy to blame the fix (Linux and Open Office et al) for the woes of the common but broken (secret Microsoft document standards) that flood you when you use the fix. And really, while I use Open Office almost exclusively for my own work, it _isn't_ exactly the best piece of software I have ever seen. It is just as quirky and annoying as virtually every other word processor I have ever used. [To date, WordPerfect has been the best word processor I have ever used, but it is dead and there is no pining for the past.]
And scanner support in Linux is not as sane (pun!) as you would hope. This is not a "Linux flaw", its a scanner vendor flaw, as even the good "hp printer drivers" don't include any kind of decent "hp scanner facility" under Linux. And my outstanding Cannon mf9170c at home has no Linux drivers at all so it took non-trivial effort to discover that cups 1.4+ and the generic PCL6 support drivers was the magic combination that _still_ borks up if I put it in the (unnecessary, but you know a diplomat is going to use it) "high quality mode". So the people to blame for bad "Linux printer and scanner driver support" is the manufacturers of the printers and scanners.
In fact the whole "looking for drivers" issue is a red herring. I have spent hundreds of professional man hours looking for Windows drivers for hardware in my lifetime and I am not alone. Every vendor always puts their drivers in odd and bizarre places. And since everybody is non-root on a linux box by default they can't just pull off the normal "cram in everything I can find till something works" techniques people use to get stuff to work under Windows.
In all computing, changing the interface of an implementation is the hardest part. And in international document exchange, that interface is going to be the foreign office of a major government. I am disappointed sure, but they gave it a good run and I would expect this office to fail on the first go.
Changing OS is like quitting smoking. Some failures and restarts are to be expected. But when they start coughing up blood again they'll try quitting again.
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
In RTFA, it is clear that they are not providing any actual figures on money saved, something they have been easily providing up until 2010 on the money saved using open source. Secret deals with MS?
It would not surprise me if part of the push was possibly from a new manager who couldn't use Linux and was unwilling to change. There are probably a lot of workers who are also unwilling to change who spent their time with Linux bagging the system.
The mention of training costs in particular reminds me of people 'unwilling' to change who deliberately do things wrong and blame the system. (We had some guys who recently kept adding information a day late to an excel spreadsheet and kept blaming the system, so we put a trace on when they were adding stuff ... and voila, it was them and not the computers!) :-)
We've had a weird experience at work with a new manager. He can't understand how we do things (or why we do things certain ways) and has spent the last few months forcing everything to be changed to suit his needs. This included him wanting an entire re-write of a backend for a system so that it works the way he wants. It started with him wanting the reports it spits out coming out in his format, and so we did that for him, but he discovered that there was all this other data that is used that gets 'totalled up' and has 'calculations' done on it to give him his reports. He wants the back end completely rewritten so that that data is not used and just the 'Totals' and other things that he has on his summary page are used in the back end. We've tried explaining that the summary stuff doesn't exist in the back end, but is created using the data ... he will sit there nodding his head saying, 'Yes, I understand that.', but then after the meeting still demands we rewrite it to remove the data that's obviously slowing the system down. *sigh* Then, there is the fact that the very system he wants a rewrite on is being integrated into our main database systems and a rewrite is a waste of time because by the time we finish the rewrite the integration will have already occurred.
That's just the one thing I'm involved with, I've heard he is even worse with what he's been doing to other people and systems. But, it did get a lot of people talking today about managers who come into an organisation where things are running smoothly and insist on changing everything to suit how they think they should run and end up ruining the system. Most of those managers are only there for a short period of time and leave disillusioned (or get fired) and when a competent manager does get into a position they have to spend three years fixing things to get them back the way they were ... only for them to leave for greener pastures and be replaced by another idiot!! :-)
In five years, maybe we'll see the German Foreign office return to Open Source and claim the migration back to MS was too expensive etc.
Which reminds me of another story (yes, once at band camp) ... we purchased software to run on our Sun boxes ages ago, and one manager had 'friends' at IBM. The IBM salespeople convinced him to buy some servers from them that ran Windows. We tried to explain that the copies of the software we had only ran on Unix, but the manager had purchased the Windows servers because the IBM salespeople had told him that the software would run on windows. The manager would not budge on the fact that he was right about the software ... so when the Windows servers arrived the company had to re-purchase the software to run on Windows servers and that manager had left the company to go stuff up some other place! Please note, I don't think the IBM salespeople were nec. to blame. The manager probably only asked them if the software runs on windows and they probably thought he meant it in a general way (ie there is a windows version), so the Manager was to blame. (Though the System Architect at the time said the IBM salespeople knew what they were doing and just wanted the sale). Who knows! But, our data centre went from being Unix only to having about four Windows servers sitting there.
Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
I forgot in my earlier comment: I use Slackware because is the only one who does things in a more or less standardized way at the kernel level. But I am not the "average Joe" from my example, I'm a mad scientist:) As such, I have no problems installing an application from source if I need. But you can not require that from the average Joe.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
What "facts"? Most vulnerabilities (privilege escalation) on Linux desktop mean that local user sitting in front of a console can become root without entering his password. They would matter on multiuser systems, but the whole point of a desktop is that it is a personal computer. You need a combination of privilege escalation and remote execution to cause any damage.
Windows, on the other hand...
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
"Most vulnerabilities (privilege escalation) on Linux desktop mean that local user sitting in front of a console can become root without entering his password." - by Alex Belits (437) * on Wednesday February 23, @08:24AM (#35289230) Homepage
That's right: 1 local exploit that can do privelege escalation CAN be a "remote exploit" with ease... see my subject line.
E.G./I.E.-> The vulnerabilities in browsers for example, can allow for a maliciously scripted page to set such a thing into a system from a remote location, same as on Windows (the Javascript DOM is the same on Windows, as it is on Linux, period).
Java is that way too, see here:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/19/mac_linux_bot_vulnerabilities/
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Known as Trojan.Jnanabot, or alternately as OSX/Koobface.A or trojan.osx.boonana.a, the bot made waves in October when researchers discovered its Java-based makeup allowed it to attack Mac and Linux machines, not just Windows PCs"
---
"You need a combination of privilege escalation and remote execution to cause any damage." - by Alex Belits (437) * on Wednesday February 23, @08:24AM (#35289230) Homepage
Right - which is what I noted above, AND in my 1st posting... it works the same on Windows, as it does on Linux due to the DOM in Javascript being faulty & webbrowsers having the same basic errors on both Linux &/or Windows platforms!
(Thus, "local exploits" become REMOTE ones, with ease, via browser faults + DOM problems in Javascript on BOTH platforms!)
APK
P.S.=> Fact is, the MORE Linux will get used? The more it's going to be attacked & SHOWN as just as vulnerable as Windows is, or any others OS... if not MORESO!
(Per the bugs present in the LINUX KERNEL ALONE (not counting Linux's other parts, as they are counted in Windows 7 in its entirety mind you) being greater than those in vs. Windows 7, judged not ONLY ON ITS KERNEL, but its entire makeup, where Linux is not)
ANDROID, a Linux variant? It's showing you JUST WHAT I MEAN... so did MacOS X, once it gained more marketshare? It began to expose its OWN weaknesses, & that it was NOT "more secure than a PC" as was alluded to on TV no less, by Apple... apk
Citation needed. What software and what is incomplete? Or are all your mates professional colour-separation print specialists?
"I have no fucking idea about the rest of your text (as it is completely unreadable)," - by Alex Belits (437) * on Wednesday February 23, @09:44AM (#35289936) Homepage
Bullshit weasel, you understood it, JUST FINE... but, I will write it in 2 syllable words for you, this time, ok?
1.) Does Java &/or JavaScript run on Linux? YES!
2.) Do Browsers on Linux use Javascript &/or Java?? Yes!!
3.) Can a "local exploit" be exploited by a malicious script??? Yes!!!
4.) Therefore, any "LOCAL EXPLOIT" is in essence, a remote one, once a maliciously scripted page loads a Linux system with said exploit... via Java, &/or Javascript.
(These type of errors in Windows can be done to Linux, just the same, & the example I posted shows it on the Jnanabot example in fact!)
APK
P.S.=> Lastly? You can try the "I can't read" crap on me, but it's always the "last resort of the defeated troll", everytime... & you using it? Evidences your defeat... lol! apk
Irrelevant data can become rather interesting over time and let's face it, MS office adopters, or mindless cretins, aren't about to have the forethought to use a non-proprietary format whenever they write a document they consider to be important, they'll just go ahead and use the same format they use for everything, why shouldn't they, no one's given them a good reason not to, and _everyone_ uses the same format as them, so it must be ok, right?
The real people out there have no understanding of anything, their choices are not to be trusted, their workflows are largely braindead and only work for them because they've spent so long doing things wrong that it makes sense to them, what they need is more fundamental understanding of the systems they use, and the ability to learn new skills when required, rather than the point blank refusal to learn and conversion to a gibbering wreck when confronted with something that doesn't allow their broken workflow to function in exactly the same way it always has.
Java and Javascript, when run in a browser, can not read, write or execute arbitrary files locally. Being able to do so, would be a security bug (and some such bugs existed and were fixed).
Java and Javascript can be used to run programs locally under control of the user. This is useless for any kinds of exploits.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
"Java and Javascript, when run in a browser, can not read, write or execute arbitrary files locally. Being able to do so, would be a security bug " - by Alex Belits (437) * on Thursday February 24, @09:21AM (#35299386) Homepage
From -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/19/mac_linux_bot_vulnerabilities/
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Known as Trojan.Jnanabot, or alternately as OSX/Koobface.A or trojan.osx.boonana.a, the bot made waves in October when researchers discovered its Java-based makeup allowed it to attack Mac and Linux machines, not just Windows PCs as is the case with most malware. Once installed, the trojan components are stored in an invisible folder and use strong encryption to keep communications private."
---
See the BOLDED PART OF THE QUOTE ABOVE?
(Sure looks like disk/file/FOLDER acccess to me!)
APK
P.S.=>
"Java and Javascript can be used to run programs locally under control of the user. This is useless for any kinds of exploits." - " - by Alex Belits (437) * on Thursday February 24, @09:21AM (#35299386) Homepage
So much for your b.s., because the above article shows CLEARLY, otherwise ... & above all else?
I just LOVE how you little weasels try to post DAYS later, thinking I won't be watching, so you can try to "get the last word", even IF it's COMPLETE BULLSHIT like you are stating & the article I cite disproves, easily... apk
"Java and Javascript, when run in a browser, can not read, write or execute arbitrary files locally. Being able to do so, would be a security bug " - by Alex Belits (437) * on Thursday February 24, @09:21AM (#35299386) Homepage
From -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/19/mac_linux_bot_vulnerabilities/
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Known as Trojan.Jnanabot, or alternately as OSX/Koobface.A or trojan.osx.boonana.a, the bot made waves in October when researchers discovered its Java-based makeup allowed it to attack Mac and Linux machines, not just Windows PCs as is the case with most malware. Once installed, the trojan components are stored in an invisible folder and use strong encryption to keep communications private."
---
See the BOLDED PART OF THE QUOTE ABOVE?
(Sure looks like disk/file/FOLDER acccess to me!)
APK
P.S.=>
"Java and Javascript can be used to run programs locally under control of the user. This is useless for any kinds of exploits." - " - by Alex Belits (437) * on Thursday February 24, @09:21AM (#35299386) Homepage
So much for your b.s., because the above article shows CLEARLY, otherwise - see the FOLDER part? ... & above all else?
I just LOVE how you little weasels try to post DAYS later, thinking I won't be watching, so you can try to "get the last word", even IF it's COMPLETE BULLSHIT like you are stating & the article I cite disproves, easily... apk
FROM -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/27/koobface_for_mac/
---
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"It was designed to use Oracle's Java framework to infect not just Macs, but Linux and Windows machines as well, according to Mac antivirus provider Intego. Once installed, the malware gives attackers complete control over the computer."
---
And, "COMPLETE CONTROL" certainly means DISKBOUND ACCESS!
(So, so much for YOUR bullshit, again... because between this Koobface & Jnanabot java based malwares -> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2006166&cid=35300528 YOU ARE WRONG AS WRONG GETS! )
APK
P.S.=> Sometimes, I cannot BELIEVE the lies (or delusions perhaps) the "Pro-*NIX" crew around here tries to spout to bullshit people with... Alex Belits is showing us all that pretty much! apk
These things happen because so few leaders have the courage to do what's actually right: they buckle and do what's popular. Minimal effort and tasty food are more popular than exercise and healthy food, for example, so a weak parent avoids unpopularity by letting the kids take the path of least effort and least benefit, planting their asses in front of the TV and stuffing their faces with junk food every day. Who cares if they wind up morbidly obese?
Political and local government leaders (and by "leaders" I mean not only those at the very top, but even team leaders and managers of small departments and so on) demonstrate the same kind of weakness when they cave in to the tantrums of IT users who want everything to be easy regardless of long-term consequences. "Just put it back so that when I click the familiar bit up there the guy at the company with Windows gets what he's used to getting...". Strong leaders would acknowledge that effort and discomfort is generally what accompanies the difficult path of positive change. But the weak ones get all flustered, "Oh gosh, sorry miss don't-you-dare-ask-me-to-learn-stuff, I didn't see your frown for all the french fries hanging out of your face! Don't worry, quick as a flash we'll put all the information that determines how you live back in the control of greedy commercial projects so you can be exploited for their profit, because we'd much rather see that happen than see you get annoyed with us!". Pathetic. Grow a spine and take your leadership seriously...otherwise, go away and bang the keyboards with the rest of the McDonald's-guzzling Windows zombies, and join them in their chorus of whining about how much it hurts to make an effort.
Having worked for AT&T all my life, now retired, I am primarily a unix user, and find Linux the natural OS for my home computing. Although I spend much time working from a terminal screen, I find Linux quite capable of competing with Microsoft in the windowed environment, except when it comes to playing games. At AT&T we also had Macs and MS computers, and while the Macs were used for work, the Windows computers were primarily used for non-work purposes. Perhaps the German Foreign office has too much free time for play? I find their reasons questionable for returning to MS, but that's their decision. Personally I wouldn't allow a MS OS to be used in a work environment if I was paying the wages.
Writing drivers for printers? What brand of printers are they using there? And they have been using Linux since 2005, so their printers should have been switched for Linux-friendly printers already. All this sound like a joke to me. I cannot imagine why they cannot work with Linux on the desktop.
Trojan.Jnanabot is a trojan. A user has to confirm running it when it is trying to launch from a browser. OS security has nothing to do with users running programs they have downloaded when their own browser tells them not to do that.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
"This is why you are not supposed to install random crap" - by Alex Belits (437) * on Friday February 25, @09:49AM (#35311936) Homepage
Ahem: Correct, but... This is not the user doing it though @ times... it's done WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE - See the ANDROID flaws like this one doing it EXACTLY that way in fact:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/10/android_malware_attacks/
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT EVIDENCE THEREOF:
---
Android bugs let attackers install malware without warning - no permissions necessary
"Researchers have disclosed bugs in Google's Android mobile operating system that allow attackers to surreptitiously install malware on users' handsets."
---
And, there you are... thus, your point? Is MOOT! Android, a LINUX no less, allows installations without user CONSENT!
---
"Once installed", rm -rf $HOME/* script will delete your files, too. - by Alex Belits (437) * on Friday February 25, @09:49AM (#35311936) Homepage
Destruction, from something that came in remotely, via JAVA or javascript, & once it's in? Like the proofs I used in Jnanabot &/or Koobface? They DO HAVE LOCAL ACCESS & can utilize known weaknesses for even more FROM REMOTE LOCALES PURELY, even!
(Thus, once it's in? There's no stopping a trojan from writing out a file to disk with THAT exact commandset in it too... but, it could save time by not doing that extra work, & just using the native Linux API's for that, same end result... )
---
"Also it's classy for you to post three messages about one stupid trojan." - by Alex Belits (437) * on Friday February 25, @09:49AM (#35311936) Homepage
Well, I made my point, & with examples - AND I FLOORED YOUR SOLE POINT HERE OF "USERS SHOULDN'T INSTALL RANDOM CRAP, and with a SOLID EXAMPLE FROM ANDROID, which also shows Linux? Is NOT THAT SECURE, period!
(Also - You obviously NEVER post as AC, because there is a "LAG" @ times on us, posting... makes it seem like our posts are not "taking"! Especially when an article FIRST 'surfaces'/is posted here! Seems like registered "lusers" (lol) get preferences there almost!)
APK
P.S.=> Better luck next time... because this proves I am just TOO WELL INFORMED & WITH CURRENT SOLID INFORMATION for you "penguins" to ever get the "best of me"... lol, even about your OWN OS' of choice! apk
"A user has to confirm running it when it is trying to launch from a browser. OS security has nothing to do with users running programs they have downloaded when their own browser tells them not to do that." - by Alex Belits (437) * on Friday February 25, @09:46AM (#35311916) Homepage
Alex, listen: You can post "days later", thinking I am not watching, so you can try for that "last word", but... see below as to "who gets the last word here":
(Read 'em & weep, because your point? It's "shot to shit")
---
Android bugs let attackers install malware without warning - no permissions necessary
FROM -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/10/android_malware_attacks/
"Researchers have disclosed bugs in Google's Android mobile operating system that allow attackers to surreptitiously install malware on users' handsets."
---
(I already "shot you down" on that point too where you tried to get "the last word" in this exchange here in another reply also -> http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2006166&cid=35312558 , because it shows that ANDROID ALLOWS INSTALLS WITHOUT USER CONSENT, & ANDROID? IT IS A LINUX, period... you FAIL here too!)
LMAO, & I'll be "straight" w/ you here Alex (since you are my 'namesake' (that's MY 1st name too)): I set you up like a "bowling pin" because I KNEW you'd try that line of "defense"... no hard feelings though!
APK
P.S.=> Like I said in the link above? "Better luck next time", because it seems I am actually BETTER INFORMED & MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE about you "penguins'" own OS of choice than you are... lol, especially about security! apk
Read this http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2008894&cid=35291836
It explains what I *thought* was another "/. discrimination" against us AC posters, but turns out NOT to be that @ all & it explains your "bitch" here too:
"Also it's classy for you to post three messages about one stupid trojan." - by Alex Belits (437) * on Friday February 25, @09:49AM (#35311936) Homepage
Apparently, IF you read that URL @ the top (& it's from a registered "luser" (lol, not really) who posts here, ALL the time too (I see his name frequently over time)):
I.E. "in a nutshell summary":
It seems that /. had somekind of "outage" on 1 of their servers (or so the registered "luser" (lol) Lord Ender had suspected, & I agree, because I've NEVER seen /. act QUITE that way, even to us AC posters - first I thought it was this "new Web 2.0 forums engine" actually)...
So, sorry to have "distressed you", or anyone else!
APK
P.S.=> "Here endeth the lesson"... apk
"What the fuck are you talking about? Android is a Google product, Google and carriers, not users, administer its installations." - by Alex Belits (437) * on Saturday February 26, @02:05AM (#35321838) Homepage
See subject line, first... & here is the article link again, for your reference (along with the quote from it I cited):
---
Android bugs let attackers install malware without warning - no permissions necessary
FROM -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/10/android_malware_attacks/
"Researchers have disclosed bugs in Google's Android mobile operating system that allow attackers to surreptitiously install malware on users' handsets."
---
That's "what I am talking about"... & it's right there in the URL above (and I took that quote from it, directly, to show you that Linux and its variants are NOT "invulnerable" to installs w/out user consent... because, after all? ANDROID is a LINUX variant!)
APK
P.S.=> Now, IF you don't know what "surreptitiously" means? Here is its defintion:
FROM http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:surreptitious&sa=X&ei=ZKtoTfycIMmXtwejzLTmAg&ved=0CBMQkAE
---
Definitions of surreptitious on the Web:
furtive: marked by quiet and caution and secrecy; taking pains to avoid being observed; "a furtive manner"; "a sneak attack"; "stealthy footsteps"; "a surreptitious glance at his watch"
clandestine: conducted with or marked by hidden aims or methods; "clandestine intelligence operations"; "cloak-and-dagger activities behind enemy lines"; "hole-and-corner intrigue"; "secret missions"; "a secret agent"; "secret sales of arms"; "surreptitious mobilization of troops"; "an ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
stealthy, furtive, well hidden, covert (especially movements)
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surreptitious
surreptitiously - in a surreptitious manner; "he was watching her surreptitiously as she waited in the hotel lobby"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
surreptitiousness - The state or quality of being surreptitious
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surreptitiousness
---
apk
Take a read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)
---
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Android's mobile operating system is based upon a modified version of the Linux kernel"
---
It seems you were NOT aware of that... now? Now, you are!
Just as you are now aware that yes, a Linux CAN have software installed on it, w/ out "user ok/consent" & yes, from valid sources (sneaky, but it was done):
---
Android bugs let attackers install malware without warning - no permissions necessary
FROM -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/10/android_malware_attacks/
"Researchers have disclosed bugs in Google's Android mobile operating system that allow attackers to surreptitiously install malware on users' handsets."
(AND, it came from VALID app stores for Android no less... hidden as an "Angry Birds" game addon apparently (sneaky bastards, but malware makers KNOW folks love that game too & WHY they hid it in that - LOTS of possible victims!))
---
AND, you now also KNOW that file/folder/disk access is possible via Java on Linux:
---
From -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/19/mac_linux_bot_vulnerabilities/
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"Known as Trojan.Jnanabot, or alternately as OSX/Koobface.A or trojan.osx.boonana.a, the bot made waves in October when researchers discovered its Java-based makeup allowed it to attack Mac and Linux machines, not just Windows PCs as is the case with most malware. Once installed, the trojan components are stored in an invisible folder and use strong encryption to keep communications private."
(indicative of DISK-BOUND access via Java)
---
AND, lastly, you also now KNOW that COMPLETE ACCESS is possible to ALL on Linux via the web (i.e.-> Meaning that once you "haul in" a badware, whether you like it or ok'd it or not (see above)? A "local exploit" can EASILY become a FULL BLOWN REMOTE ONE, because complete access can alter ANYTHING in the OS, allowing for that to happen:
FROM -> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/27/koobface_for_mac/ [theregister.co.uk]
---
PERTINENT QUOTE/EXCERPT:
"It was designed to use Oracle's Java framework to infect not just Macs, but Linux and Windows machines as well, according to Mac antivirus provider Intego. Once installed, the malware gives attackers complete control over the computer."
And, "COMPLETE CONTROL" certainly means DISKBOUND ACCESS... and, more (even like altering security, impersonation, privelege escalations, & more)!
---
There you are... all of what I put up, in 1 post pretty much, consolidated!
APK
P.S.=> Again: "Here endeth the lesson"... apk
I love Linux. I love the ethic, the openness, the dependability, the way it just works - for me. However, I'm a techie. Most desktop users are not techies. They need a business tool to be productive with the minimum amount of effort. Organisations don't want additional training overheads, they want their employees to be productive with an easy to use tool from day 1. Unfortunately, the (many) Linux distros do not provide this, out of the box. I always find I have to tweak settings, mess around with drivers and ferret out non-standard methods to get my machines working just the way I want it. Most of my computers run Linux, and a few also dual boot into Windows. I recently had to 'upgrade' from Vista to Win7 on a couple of my dual boot machines, and felt a bitter pang in my stomach at actually having to pay for the software knowing it would further help fuel Microsoft's profit margin (the shame). However, I did this for a couple of reasons, 1: to keep up with the Joneses (not much to report), and 2: to get missing functionality working (i.e. bluetooth). I also didn't take this decision lightly, and thought about the pros & cons before going ahead, but there are still a few reasons why I still need the (actually, very good) business tools that run on windows. Specifically, I still haven't found *good* alternatives to Visio or Project. Next, I'm still waiting for my beloved Android phone to be able to sync in the same way it can only currently do with Outlook. I'd honestly appreciate anyone pointing me in the right direction to overcome these deficiencies. Thankfully, I can dip in and out of whatever OS, and use the right tool for the task in hand. This is a privilege that we enjoy, but your average user can not (easily). I feel at the end of the day, it's about using the right tool for the job. Linux is great for those with a few more brain cells and are willing to put the time and effort (sometimes) into getting a working desktop that's right for them. Windows is about productivity in the corporate world's desktop arena. An observation: Instead of the huge amount of talented individuals and companies hell bent on creating THE best Linux distro... why not concentrate on making the best Linux based (productivity) tools - maybe more Summer of Code? C'mon guys/girls, show the corporate world why Linux is so good, there's some great apps already out there, why not make them even better, fill in the gaps (i.e. missing apps) and give them no reason for not wanting to choose Linux. We all know Linux is a great server platform, maybe it's about time to make it a great desktop platform too!