Why Microsoft Killed the Windows Start Button

Barence writes "Microsoft claims it took the controversial decision to remove the Start button from the traditional Windows desktop because people had stopped using it. The lack of a Start button on the Windows 8 desktop has been one of the most divisive elements of the new user interface, and was widely assumed to have made way for the Metro Start screen. However, Chaitanya Sareen, principal program manager at Microsoft, said the telemetry gathered from Windows 7 convinced Microsoft to radically overhaul the Start menu because people were using the taskbar instead. 'When we evolved the taskbar we saw awesome adoption of pinning [applications] on the taskbar,' said Sareen. 'We are seeing people pin like crazy. And so we saw the Start menu usage dramatically dropping, and that gave us an option. We're saying "look, Start menu usage is dropping, what can we do about it? What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"'"

Comments

stopped using it?

[X0563511]

Who the hell is their focus group? I've not met a single person who doesn't use the start button.

Re:stopped using it?

[SerpentMage]

Mod up the parent... I completely concur. Yes I pinned as well, but I did use the start menu to navigate the positions. But hey why do I matter and care. I shifted all of my machines to OSX, and Linux Ubuntu...

Re:stopped using it?

[cpu6502]

I use the start button about once every 5 minutes. Since my desktop is completely-clean of any icons, the start button is the only method I have to open new programs. Microsoft is probably lying through their teeth about "people don't use it".

Re:stopped using it?

[Gr33nJ3ll0]

Relax, it's the old "The focus group made me do it defense", probably to be followed with "I was just doing my job", and then finally "I didn't know OKAY?!!?!!?!?! I DIDN'T KNOW!!!!"

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

The same idiots who like the ribbon.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know the little box you can tick that says "Send anonymous usage data to Microsoft"? It's that data. Not a focus group, but telemetry data from actual windows installs.

Re:stopped using it?

[EdZ]

I never use it. Being the owner of a keyboard, I simply press the perfectly good button on that.

Besides, the start button is still there, it's simply hidden under a hot corner. Move your mouse to the same place you would normally, and click as normally, and you still still perform the same action as in older versions of windows. Of course, the menu is replaced with the start screen, but that's another matter.

Re:stopped using it?

[jerpyro]

I agree. I keep the top 5-7 pinned (Browser, Explorer, Winamp, Thunderbird, RDP, Visual Studio, SSMS) and then the rest of the stuff I don't need cluttering up my quicklaunch bar. The next top 10 are in the frequent list of my start menu. The rest I use so rarely that I'm ok hunting for.

I'd be ok with not having a start menu if there was a heirarchical way to organize the things that you don't use often... kind of like OH WAIT THAT'S THE START BUTTON! :)

Re:stopped using it?

[redbeardcanada]

I think for the most common tasks, people avoid the start bar by pinning their main applications (or use an applauncher in XP like Objectdock). The problem is when you need to do something other than the common. I think this will cause major confusion like the Office Ribbon where you know what you want to do, you know how you used to do it, but you can't find where it is anymore...

The Start menu was at least somewhat intuitive to find buried settings in Control Panel or seldom used programs.

Re:stopped using it?

[Missing.Matter]

Hello, let me introduce myself. I do not use the start button. I access the start menu for two reasons: to access the search function (95% of the time) and to access a little used program (5% of the time, maybe once a month). Otherwise, my complete workflow is pinned to my task bar. I even access explorer from there and from keyboard shortcuts.

Windows 8 has completely changed that, and I'm thankful. There is a separate, more useful screen for searching and accessing little used apps. Now the start screen is much more useful, and I have a reason to actually access it.

If you don't like it, you have many options including not upgrading to Windows 8, or applying what will most certainly be a large array of hacks, tweaks, and UI modifications to get windows working the way you want it to, just as there have always exists in Windows.

Re:stopped using it?

[Chas]

You know the little box you can tick that says "Send anonymous usage data to Microsoft"? It's that data. Not a focus group, but telemetry data from actual windows installs.

Oh. The thing everyone and their brother is told to NEVER check!

No wonder they got such asinine and utterly useless feedback. Because the only people giving them feedback were morons.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

And only idiots agree to send them that data.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people pinned and then, instead of going to the start menu and click around in dozens folder and sub-folder, they simply learned (in a couple of days) to press CTRL-ESC and then start typing the program name.

This is *way* faster than any other method and you can do it in Windows 8.

Get used to it.

Re:stopped using it?

[girlintraining]

Who the hell is their focus group? I've not met a single person who doesn't use the start button.

Marketing executives that are trying to compete with Apple by appearing hip and trendy, but instead fouling things up so bad they're going to need a backhoe instead of a shovel.

Re:stopped using it?

[cpu6502]

Insightful comment from the FA. They are surveying the novice users not power users, hence they produced a Win8 interface for novices, not us:

Flawed, like most surveys
"Weâ(TM)d seen the trend in Windows 7," referring to the telemetry gathered by the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program." ----- Well there we have it, all but the most basic users opt out of the intrusive MCEIP - so they are surveying people who don't even know what the Start Button is for - I kid you not. As a computer tech I see it all the time.

Re:stopped using it?

[jedidiah]

Of course the start menu will be very rarely used in a well configured system. That is the way it should be. That does not mean that it should be removed.

The Windows version could stand a re-org but that's a different kind of problem.

Re:stopped using it?

[Missing.Matter]

Right, because Microsoft hires exactly 0 competent people who know what a representative sample is. I'm sure they have dozens of different methods to collect this data, one of which is the automated usage data built within Windows. I know in one blog post they addressed concerns that corporate users don't have this on, and therefore were not represented in the sample. Microsoft responded that they have other methods for collecting data from corporate users.

Re:stopped using it?

[sl4shd0rk]

Who the hell is their focus group?

419 out of 420 Microsoft employees no longer use the Start button

Re:stopped using it?

[jmerlin]

As a former IT professional who's used Windows more than any other OS and who's memorized most of the useful shortcuts and configured his desktop to allow me to get things done really quickly, even I still use the Start menu.

I have never once ever pinned anything on the task bar (Indeed I remove all the default pins and set it to show text unless the bar is full), because that would require me to click on an icon, and reduce task-bar real-estate for my apps. Horrible trade-off.

And a direct answer to their question: "What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?" -- remove pins. Pins and quickstart/recently used are the exact same fucking thing. I don't ever CLICK on the Start button, I hit my win key, which means it's not an extra click for me to access that menu, and it's vertically stacked which means I don't have this glob of icons. I hate that enough on OSX.

What it seems like is happening here is that Microsoft is trying to emulate OSX's Dock. The problem with that is that OSX also provides a start-menu of sorts, it's just got nowhere near as much power. So trying to emulate OSX but removing the one benefit you have over it seems like sawing off half of your foot so you can fit into designer sneakers. Good move, Microsoft. I won't use Win8 without a Start menu. Thanks, though.

Re:stopped using it?

[Jeng]

It is a misinterpretation of the data.

People pin the programs they use the most and in that way there is less start menu items being used total, but for infrequently used programs one usually accesses them via the start menu.

So basically Microsoft is saying that since you use certain programs 90+% of the time you don't need an easy way to access the ones you don't use on a regular basis. That is actually one of my main complaints in regards to using Linux so I think it is funny Microsoft is fucking this up in this way.

Microsoft could have came to the same conclusion if they were tracking how one uses Windows 95, but instead of it regarding pinning programs in Windows 95 you mainly used desktop items.

Re:stopped using it?

[morari]

I use the Start Menu a lot. In fact, I never pin apps. I have that ugly taskbar disabled. I prefer to have three or four icons on my Quick Launch bar. Everything else is neatly filed away within the Start Menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[elsurexiste]

Who the hell is their focus group? I've not met a single person who doesn't use the start button.

Now, you do: I've clicked the Start button in Windows 7 only twice in my life: the first time was to see what else is installed and the second one was only to remove entries from the frequently used programs list.

I attribute this to pinning, shortcuts, and putting every application and/or file on the desktop.

Re:stopped using it?

[toejam13]

Same here. Using it infrequently is not the same as never using it as all.

I have 14 icons in my Quick Launch folder that cover the bulk of my daily PC application use. Everything else is in the Start Menu. That includes stuff like MS Office, Photoshop and a slew of utilities and games. And I have a ton of games installed, going back to Win9x days (one of the benefits of having a 2TB hard drive).

The new tile system reminds me of the old Finder folder used by Mac Classic, but without the benefit of subfolders. Not being able to sort applications by type is going to drive the OCD side of me batty.

Time for somebody to port the KDE desktop manager to Windows, if it hasn't already been done.

Re:stopped using it?

[clarkn0va]

If you press the start button on the screen or on the keyboard, aren't you still using "the" start button? I too prefer the Windows button on the keyboard, and was greatly disappointed with its effect, or rather lack thereof, in the developer preview.

Re:stopped using it?

[Missing.Matter]

The Start menu was at least somewhat intuitive to find buried settings in Control Panel or seldom used programs.

And how is the new solution not? There is a new applications list for seldomly used programs. Maybe you're confused because the new start menu isn't supposed to just be a place for things you never use. That's kind of what this entire article is about; they're trying to turn it into something that you actually use instead of being a closet for all your old junk that you only look through when you need to find your tennis racket you haven't used in 3 years.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I'm a power user, and I don't even pin anything; I make my Windows 7 "superbar" like Windows XP, and I use the "All Programs" list like it was used back in 98.

I use the start menu all of the time (to scroll through my hundreds of programs), and I rarely use the search bar. Windows 8 has completely killed my usage case.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I *USED* to use the start menu quite a bit. Then they burred everything and smashed it into a small area of my screen (instead of expanding menus). So yeah I created a zillion icons and pinned the commonly used ones. Did they stop and think *maybe* they broke the start button and so people stopped using it?

Re:stopped using it?

[clarkn0va]

True story: I support a couple hundred staff (small tech school), and by far the most common trouble call after deploying a new computer is "this computer doesn't have Outlook". The correct translation for this, in our case, is "Outlook isn't on my desktop, so it must not be installed".

How somebody can use a computer every day and not know how to use the start menu is a bit baffling to me. My best guess is that these people simply use a small subset of a computer's functionality, all of which somehow magically made its way to the desktop, quick launch or taskbar, as the case may be. This is the same demographic, by the way, that knows Internet Explorer simply as "The Internet".

Re:stopped using it?

[PhantomShadow]

Sadly it seems that that their focus group is now the "average" user; the person that uses their computer for nothing more that a internet browser. alot of the people i know that have tryed windows 8 say they love it, so apparently Microsoft is doing a ok job at targeting that group. But personally i used the start menu every time i used my windows computer, and everyone in my family (before switching to various forms of linux) used it quite alot.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find myself using the Search function in the Start menu more. Just type the first few letters of the program I want to open and BAM motherfuckers! It starts.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually love the ribbon. It makes complex features more accessible and provides a superior visual organization of features.

Re:stopped using it?

[Tough Love]

Standard practice at is to collect this data methodically, efficiently and comprehensively then ignore it completely in favor of a powerpoint slide.

Re:stopped using it?

[cayenne8]

I'd never heard of 'pinning' something to the task bar before this article....??

Re:stopped using it?

[jandrese]

You clearly weren't part of the focus group. I'm sure the focus group was also full of the kind of people who maximize every window, no matter what it is and have their desktop absolutely full of icons.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Scroll through hundreds of programs? What a waste of time.

Re:stopped using it?

[yotto]

...assuming you can remember the name of the program, and not simply its function.

Also, sometimes it's nice to browse around the start menu and see what you've installed.

Re:stopped using it?

[K. S. Kyosuke]

If you press the start button on the screen or on the keyboard, aren't you still using "the" start button?

No. You're using the same UI element that is also called forth by the Start button, but that's not the same thing.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I never use it. Being the owner of a keyboard, I simply press the perfectly good button on that."

ummm.. You do realize that the start menu, and the key which activates the start menu, are the same thing right? One would assume if they removed the start menu, your key would obviously no longer work. Otherwise, they would not have removed the start menu.

+5 insightful? wow

Re:stopped using it?

[Penguinisto]

They're likely too invested now to change it back (at least not without it looking like a total kludge).

They may be right when it comes to the typical grandma who only opens web browser, email, and maybe a genealogy app, but anyone who uses the things for mmore than that will have their most-used stuff on the taskbar, but uses the start menu for everything else.

I was just thinking... if Microsoft was truly stupid enough to rip off Unity w/r/t opening an application, they deserve what they get.

Re:stopped using it?

[spire3661]

No, but its ok that you think that.

Re:stopped using it?

[space_jake]

I spend more time using the ribbon than the old menus! That's good... right?

Re:stopped using it?

[BeanThere]

In Vista and Windows 7, they made the Start menu WORSE -- it doesn't seem to occur to them that this might be another big reason people are using it less. Recall, the old Start menu expanded out broadly with as many of your programs as possible; then they confined it to a tiny more finicky area where firstly it takes longer to appear, and secondly you have to work harder to scroll through the thing looking for your application.

Re:stopped using it?

[Dunbal]

It's just yet another reason not to "upgrade".

Re:stopped using it?

[yorgo]

Sounds like the old, "our goal was to integrate conversations across multiple channels of communication ...We want people to use whatever's easier for them" defense!

Re:stopped using it?

[alva_edison]

I actually love the ribbon. It makes complex features more accessible and provides a superior visual organization of features.

Assuming you already know where things are. If you are trying to do something new, you have the added step of trying to figure out what icon represents the task. Also somethings can be only done from the dialog boxes (accessed by clicking the lower right corner of individual panels inside the ribbon). Finally there is the Quick Access Toolbar, which mostly has things that didn't go onto the ribbon. It's placement on the title bar is annoying because by default I'm not going to be looking there.

Re:stopped using it?

[SJHillman]

By far my favorite feature of Win7. Windows key -> type want I want to run (usually under 4 characters) -> Enter. Very efficient.

I know of no regular users that understand pinning. Myself, I only pin my email and web browsers (by far my most frequently used programs) and nothing else.

Re:stopped using it?

[Penguinisto]

Must be nice. Thanks to you and Microsoft for borking things up for the rest of us. :/

Re:stopped using it?

[arkane1234]

Well, Maximizing every window isn't even a noob thing.. not a part of the whole stereotype.

In fact, I know lots of people including myself that do it to use the screen real estate. Alt-tab (or apple-tab) or switching screens is pretty simple.
Yes, I switch screens on my work Windows desktop. I was tired of being constrained to one screen, so I downloaded an open source app named VirtuaWin to have easily switchable virtual desktops.

Re:stopped using it?

[John Bokma]

When on XP I used this the most A better start menu with Quick Launch.

Besides Windows key + R.

But yeah, MS must be lying through their teeth because you use the start button about once every 5 minutes... Can't even imagine why people would do such a thing unless they get paid for doing so.

Re:stopped using it?

[R3d Jack]

Personally, I use my pinned applications 95% of the time. However, I use the Start button a couple of times a day. They have to have something to take its place that is about as easy to access...

Re:stopped using it?

[arkane1234]

HUNDREDS? Christ man...

Re:stopped using it?

[cpu6502]

Pinning means creating a program "shortcut" but instead of putting the shortcut on your desktop, you drag it to your taskbar on the bottom. I'm not sure why the MS employee said it's "new" to Seven? I thought that function has existed since XP.

Re:stopped using it?

[jbengt]

"It's like voting; you will bitch about who won even if you didn't vote."

FTFY

Re:stopped using it?

[mwvdlee]

I guess I'm their focus group.
My Windows 7 taskbar is stuffed with 100+ icons and takes up half the available screen space.
The remaining taskbar space only allows me to open a couple of Windows. Luckily, scanning for the right meaningless miniature icon takes up half an hour, so I don't open a lot of Windows.

Re:stopped using it?

[Joce640k]

I don't think they've thought this cunning plan all the way through.

To "pin" something you need to have access to it in the first place. Guess where most of the things you can "pin" are stored? Yup - the start menu.

The only way pinning can work well is if they reinvent the start menu, but disguise it as something else.

Re:stopped using it?

[IwantToKeepAnon]

The same idiots who like the ribbon.

Worse, the same idiots that like clippy ..... (Mr Burns' shudder.)

Re:stopped using it?

[arkane1234]

uhh... buddy, there's an "All Programs" area in the start button that is basically the same Windows 95+ start button area.

Re:stopped using it?

[i kan reed]

Oh, then you missed one of the best things about windows 7. You can press the windows key, type a bit of the name of the program or document you want, press enter, and it's ACTUALLY PRETTY GOOD at finding the right thing. I pin my favorite things, firefox, windows explorer, visual studio, command shell, and can very easily get the rest when I want it.

Re:stopped using it?

[rtfa-troll]

I spend more time using the ribbon than the old menus! That's good... right?

Yes; you have to remember that, the thing which makes Facebook superior to Google is that people go to Google, find an answer, achieve something and then go away satisfied. With Facebook they spend much longer on each page searching for something of value. In future the Ribbon will allow adverts to be mixed in between the indestinguishable wierd icons ensuring that the users click on them by accident whilst desperately searching for a function which they can't work out the proper location or representation of.

This; is the true future of Office365 (which will soon become the one true office as companies attempt to monetize their under-deployed personnel).

Re:stopped using it?

[Jeng]

I take it you are not in tech support.

This will make some peoples lives hell, but will provide them with a steady paycheck as compensation.

I think this is actually closer to Microsoft Bob than it is to Windows ME.

Re:stopped using it?

[Chaos Incarnate]

Removing pins is fine if they remove the group policy that allows the Start menu's recently used items to be disabled. The dipshits at my workplace turned that off, meaning that I have to pin stuff to the taskbar instead.

Re:stopped using it?

[chargersfan420]

Undoing my mods in this thread because I have to ask - have you never used the "shutdown" or "restart" options? Do you ever turn off your computer?

Re:stopped using it?

[WolfgangPG]

That is still works perfectly in Windows 8.

Re:stopped using it?

[mwvdlee]

Same here. I use pinning for about three or four icons at most; the stuff I open and close often.
Do they have a search&enter function in the metro interface?

Re:stopped using it?

[IwantToKeepAnon]

Because the only people giving them feedback were morons.

Skroob: That's amazing! I've got the same checkbox on my luggage! Prepare Spaceball 1 for immediate departure! And uncheck that box on my luggage!

Re:stopped using it?

[ryanmc1]

Actually you described using the quick launch feature. Pinning is a bit different. To pin something to the taskbar you right click it and choose "pin to taskbar" This is not the same as using quick launch because it does not create a new icon on the taskbar when the program starts. This reduces the number of icons using up space since you will only have one (with quick launch you have two or more, one for quick launch, and then another for each running instance of the program)

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because as of windows 7, you can right click on a running application and pin it to the task bar, which you could not do in XP. XP just had a quick launch area, which is far inferior.

With 7, apps are always in the same place, whether they're running or not. In XP, you click a quick launch icon, then the app appears at the end of your taskbar.

On topic: I use the start menu a lot. Hitting the window hey and typing an app name seems to be the best way to access seldom-used apps. I don't see adopting Windows 8, except maybe on an x86 surface tablet.

Re:stopped using it?

[mwvdlee]

I too love how the ribbon removes features based on Window width.

Re:stopped using it?

[X0563511]

I use that, and pinning - so does a lot of the people I know. That said, everyone that I know of uses the All Programs menu to find things they don't often use or forgot the spelling for.

Re:stopped using it?

[OakDragon]

Exactly - Microsoft puts a few on there, the OEM / vendor quite a few more, then everything they install is " [X] Create icon on my desktop".

Re:stopped using it?

[whargoul]

That's great if you know what you're looking for, but if you're searching for a specific app you rarely use and don't remember the name of it would be highly inefficient and frustrating.

Re:stopped using it?

[danomac]

Absolutely correct.

I support 120+ users. One thing I've noticed during our Windows 7 migration is that our staff do not use the start menu at all. The server places shortcuts for six or seven common use tools on users' desktops, and are shown how to pin apps to the taskbar.

The result I've noticed is that users have pinned office and internet apps used frequently to the taskbar, and use the icons on the desktop like they always have. I'd say about 5 users have seen the usefulness of the search feature on the Start menu. The other 115 don't use it.

The only time I've seen staff use the Start button here is to log off when they're done with the machine. If there was a button on the taskbar to do that, they'd never use the Start menu at all!

Re:stopped using it?

[mcgrew]

1. Click "start"
2. Right click what you want to pin
3. Click "pin to task bar"
4. Done!

Gees, I knew that and I use Linux more often than I use Windows! You could do it in XP, but it involved copying a .lnk file to some obscure subdirectory (I've forgotten where).

Re:stopped using it?

[Tarlus]

Yes. It is still just as easy as pressing the Windows key, then typing to start your search.

Re:stopped using it?

[greyblack]

I don't

Replaced it with keyboard shortcuts and Launchy

Re:stopped using it?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You know the little box you can tick that says "Send anonymous usage data to Microsoft"? It's that data. Not a focus group, but telemetry data from actual windows installs.

Oh. The thing everyone and their brother is told to NEVER check!

No wonder they got such asinine and utterly useless feedback. Because the only people giving them feedback were morons.

What's all this hate about? The angriest people seem to be the ones who consciously refused to provide any meaningful feedback. They then spit venom when decisions are made without the input they refused to give. And on a product they're not even being forced to use.

Holy shit, people...

Re:stopped using it?

[Eponymous Coward]

I pin a bunch of stuff. I love that I can then use win-1, win-2, etc... to launch the pinned apps. The Windows 7 UI is one of the most keyboard friendly UI's I've used.

Re:stopped using it?

[Phyrexia]

Before Win7, we had a "quick launch" toolbar, which is a little different than the OSX style dock/taskbar present in Win7. The Win7 implementation is better IMO.

I don't know if you'd lump the window previews with this or not, but that was a new feature in 7 as well.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yours would be the first "completely-clean" desktop I've ever seen and I've dealt with thousands of users over the years. Why Microsoft not agreeing with your situation makes them liars in your mind is beyond me. Sounds like you got a big ego about how you use a computer being the only way to use a computer. The fact that you got modded so high just shows how much group think there is around here.

Re:stopped using it?

[Dwedit]

I thought the start menu got a lot better when they added the little text box there. Type in a few characters to filter everything out. Makes it more like the Awesomebar in Firefox.

Re:stopped using it?

[CubicleZombie]

Isn't that like the new feature of Ubuntu that everybody hates?


I'm hard core. I hit [Win]-R and type the exact path and filename of everything I run.

Re:stopped using it?

[mekkab]

This is totally a bookmark so I can start doing this!!!

/has a few things pinned to the taskbar

Re:stopped using it?

[goldgin]

I agree, I press the keyboard button and type what application I need. Years from now my son will laugh at the start button and its cluster of submenus we used to use.

Re:stopped using it?

[marcosdumay]

Nope. Win 95 start menu used all the vertical space available, and become larger and larger as you needed deeper menus.

Win 7 start menu puts everything into a small rectangle, where you can't see everything, must click on menus to see what is inside (compounded with the classical bad arrangement of menus in Windows, that's very bad), and nested menus have even less horizontal space because of identation and share the same vertical space with everything else.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can still have a quick launch toolbar in Windows 7. I am staring at my right now. I much prefer it to pinning. I have nothing pinned.

Re:stopped using it?

[Politburo]

I believe all of the things available on the QAT are also on the ribbon. You can also choose to 'show below the ribbon'.

There's always going to be some hurdle when you're trying to do something new. Instead of trying to figure out icons, just use the help file (really, it's that simple).

Re:stopped using it?

[DragonTHC]

right and there's also "Pin to Start Menu"

Re:stopped using it?

[GodInHell]

I used to use it a lot more, before they started hiding crap that I didn't use enough, and adding useless links to "my computer" (on the desktop), etc. The start menu, as originally implemented, was a great little tool. Of course, MSoft keeps fucking up their great working tools to create non-functional interfaces that hide the application you want to ask behind three layers of sorting screens. I know how to use my computer, stop trying to guide me to the right control panel option and just let me access the fsking tool.

Re:stopped using it?

[DragonTHC]

I do that. Always have.

I also used quick launch a lot.

I pin my most used applications

And I use start menu a lot.

Re:stopped using it?

[cpu6502]

The taskbar previews are pretty handy. Certainly better than flipping through a ton of screens like AmigaOS. I can minimize VLC Media Player to the taskbar and yet still pause/resume playback through the preview window.

Re:stopped using it?

[Dr_Barnowl]

Ubuntu also goes one further and has the tap-type mechanism for menu items, which is great for apps with huge forests of menu options.

Re:stopped using it?

[Gerzel]

Probably not.

They probably took data from a large sample set without differentiating different types of users or types of use.

I'd bet that common behavior is for a user to pin the top five or six most used programs to the taskbar and then use them nearly every day w/o using the start menu that much on a regular basis. Thus automated measures would show what MS is claiming. However they only looked at what people where doing and at the numbers of how many times they were doing things not at why or how they were doing things.

Also I'd bet there are a few in power who made the decision who are unwilling to relent because that would mean they were wrong, and such persons are never wrong.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anne Thwacks]

If you had only been using a computer for a couple of years, you probably wouldn't know that.

Re:stopped using it?

[Captoo]

Correction: This works even better in Windows 8.

Re:stopped using it?

[DragonTHC]

of course you use your pinned apps most of the time, that's why they're pinned.

Re:stopped using it?

[i kan reed]

If it wasn't for their loathing of things like UI-multitasking, I'd be ok with it.

Re:stopped using it?

[strikethree]

They partially have a point. The programs that I use most often, I pin (and before that, made shortcuts in quicklaunch).

However, this does NOT mean I want less accessiblity to the programs that I do not use every time I log in to my computer. This is the same crap that the Gnome guys are pulling: Take something that is convenient and try to turn it into the ONLY way a thing can be done. WTF people? Where is the perspective? Why this single track mind thing? It is not MY fault that half of the planet is barely more intelligent than a smart patient who has just been injected with sodiom pentathol.

Seriously, I want to CONTROL my computer. If controlling a computer is too hard for a vast majority, fine, put some things in to help them. DO NOT TAKE MY ABILITY TO CONTROL MY COMPUTER's BEHAVIOR. kthx.

Re:stopped using it?

[FilmedInNoir]

I use some sort of hybrid Quick Launch that Win7 has. I have a lot more control over it and can have multiple lists. But I still use the Start Button. I don't use pinning. Is this an age thing? I'm old school, I still use the command prompt... Where did MS-DOS edit go btw?

Re:stopped using it?

[wonkey_monkey]

One right here - since I started using Launchy. The most beautiful part is the way it learns which programs you want to launch with which shortcuts, so you can rapidly end up using a single key (well, hotkey combo+key+enter) to launch your most-used software.

Sorry, I know this sounds like an ad, but I'm a big fan of brilliant simplicity.

Re:stopped using it?

[wonkey_monkey]

That said, the idea of Microsoft junking the button for everyone does sound fairly insane.

Re:stopped using it?

[An ominous Cow art]

I maintain a clean desktop, too. My trick since the windows 95 days is to put shortcuts to stuff I use frequently into a desktop folder, which I keep open all the time. With the taskbar on the left side of the screen, it's easy to select the folder when I need to run one of the things in it, otherwise it's the Start button.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anne Thwacks]

I think that was Windows 3.1. - I started using *BSD shortly after Win3.1 and I remember it.

Re:stopped using it?

[bigjarom]

The ribbon was absolutely awful in 2007, especially for power users. With Office 2010 we could finally customize it, so instead of awful it became annoying but usable once thoroughly configured.

Re:stopped using it?

[werewolf1031]

As a former IT professional who's used Windows more than any other OS and who's memorized most of the useful shortcuts...
I have never once ever pinned anything on the task bar ... because that would require me to click on an icon...

Wow, seriously?

WinKey+1 = first pinned item; WinKey+2 = second pinned item; and so on.

Unless of course you're talking about old (pre-'06) versions of Windows, but in that case you don't have "pinned items", just customizable shortcut toolbars that are really just pointing to folders with .lnk files (which is all the Quicklaunch bar really is as well).

Personally, I use both pinned items AND the Start menu; different tools for different purposes. One for common stuff, one for everything else.

Re:stopped using it?

[jbolden]

The problem with that is that OSX also provides a start-menu of sorts, it's just got nowhere near as much power.

What are you talking about? The OSX folders on doc is at least as powerful as the start menu. I can can create either a physical or smart folder (the result of query). Inside that folder I can have applications shortcuts, actual executables (applescript, shell script...), other actual folders or smart folders. The system will make reasonable choices about icons based on the contents. And I have 4 browsing schemes I can use with any folder or smart folder anywhere in the hierarchy.

How is that less powerful?

Re:stopped using it?

[lightknight]

r/Microsoft, from what I can tell. Similar discussion on my front page, albeit with completely opposite responses to what you see on /.

Re:stopped using it?

[mystikkman]

I guess you haven't used the developer preview. It has a start button that activated the new start screen.

So (Start Button vs. Just a hot corner) and (Start Menu vs. new Start Screen) are completely different arguments and decisions. We are talking about the first here in this story. They could've easily replaced the Start button with the hot corner and kept the Win 7 start menu instead of the Metro Start screen.

Re:stopped using it?

[mitzampt]

Got around 200 or so programs that I actually use fairly regularly.... I'm not kidding. I would not survive without the search bar. Same goes for KDE4 kicker menu and GNOME Do. They could throw navigating menus away if it weren't for the usual "I'll know what it is when I see it" hunting/searching for apps.

Re:stopped using it?

[mystikkman]

I spend more time using the ribbon than the old menus! That's good... right?

It actually could be that they're using more advanced features because those are more exposed in the ribbon now than some obscure 5 level menu in the old menus.

So in that case, it's actually good.

Re:stopped using it?

[X.25]

Right, because Microsoft hires exactly 0 competent people who know what a representative sample is. I'm sure they have dozens of different methods to collect this data, one of which is the automated usage data built within Windows. I know in one blog post they addressed concerns that corporate users don't have this on, and therefore were not represented in the sample. Microsoft responded that they have other methods for collecting data from corporate users.

And those methods are ... ?

Re:stopped using it?

[danomac]

There's a difference between knowing how to use it and not wanting to use it.

My coworkers generally don't like to use computers as it is, they only use it because their job requires it. Most just learn just enough to get the job done and don't care to put in effort to learn any more.

Re:stopped using it?

[calgar99]

This. The Start button isn't for opening routine applications anymore. It's there to easily (if not quickly) find those programs you use once in a blue moon.

Re:stopped using it?

[Sepodati]

Things on the desktop are covered up by running applications which you have to get out of the way to get to the desktop. That's why I don't keep much there, at least, other than maybe the latest documents I'm working on or reading.

Re:stopped using it?

[mitzampt]

Not really fond of how they chose to sort the icons/options and how you can't find the one tool in the group you actually want to use (and then how adding it to the tab makes it look messy). But I gotta give them credit for contextual tabs such as table and picture tools. I would add a tab that lets me see in one place the most common tools I use and allows me to pin them.
Also the most useful tool on the ribbon really is hiding it.

Re:stopped using it?

[Robert Zenz]

At work (Linux at home) I seldom use the Start-Button...for the simple reason that I have the most used applications in a shortcutbar and Launchy.

Re:stopped using it?

[Stormtrooper42]

So true. The other day I was looking for the screenshot application. (Windows 7)
(As a side note, it isn't that useful, I usually press "Print Screen" and paste the image in a proper image editor.)
Anyway, I started typing:
screen, the relevant application didn't show up.
screenshot, nothing
cap, capture, nope

They called it Snipping Tool...

Re:stopped using it?

[Sepodati]

You always have to take time to find something new to you. With the old interface it was searching through the drop down menus or hovering over the little buttons looking for the one you wanted. Now you search through the ribbons until you find it. Same same, imo. People, as always, just don't like change.

Re:stopped using it?

[mhajicek]

Maybe they'll develop a single field where you can type in whatever you want the computer to do. Wouldn't that be great? Let's see, you type in a line of commands, so you could call it a "command line". You wouldn't need all those icons! That would be the ultimate evolution of Windows.

Re:stopped using it?

[Robert Zenz]

Just to clarify....I wanted to say that it is possible to ignore it...but that's my workflow...at home I use a custom X-Session with Sawfish...so my workflow might be a little different from the MS target group.

Re:stopped using it?

[scot4875]

Lying through their teeth? To what end? To just piss people off? That makes no fucking sense whatsoever.

I have everything I frequently use pinned to the taskbar, and everything else I navigate to using the start button and then typing what I want. I could very easily do without the full start menu.

I think it's kind of dumb to remove it completely, but I find it very plausible that people who know how to use their computers rarely navigate through it. It's just not necessary anymore.

--Jeremy

Re:stopped using it?

[lightknight]

So far as I can tell, we're having a 'Pharaoh tells the tide not to come in' situation here -> MS believes that because they are the most popular desktop / laptop OS, they can actually decide what the end-user will like; as opposed to the reality, which is that the end-user likes what MS has put out (on average), which is why they are the most popular desktop / laptop OS.

You see this kind of thing everywhere, like when an actor's / actresses's ego goes to their head (good roles help them become famous, they start believing because they're famous any role they play will be good, they stop looking for good roles, their fame / fortune drops).

Windows 8, however, will have a glorious debut. When OEMs start shipping that with new computers, instead of Windows 7, MS is bound to meet their predictions of Windows 8 being 'their biggest launch / fastest growing OS ever!" Allowing for inflation, it will also probably be their "highest grossing OS ever" as well. Accounting tricks / Hollywood math, which most of us are aware of. However, I imagine a different story will be told in several months time, with the MS marketing team going into overdrive to push the product into various corporate places. The front lines (IT) have already decided that every PC they spec for the next few years is going to get Windows XP or 7; anything that comes in with 8 will probably be wiped.

Re:stopped using it?

[DemonGenius]

Isn't that like the new feature of Ubuntu that everybody hates?

Yes, but some of us prefer to have a choice of where this application bar is. Personally, I like having my application bars horizontal and not vertical. This is a major reason why I don't like Unity.

Re:stopped using it?

[mhajicek]

I just thought of an analogy to how I consider the various ways of accessing stuff. The pinned items are equipped, the start menu is my inventory, and Windows Explorer (or Free Commander) is my stash.

Re:stopped using it?

[scot4875]

Hate to break it to you, but if you're manually scrolling through hundreds of programs in the Win 7 start menu to hunt for the one you want, that makes you very much *not* a power user.

--Jeremy

Re:stopped using it?

[WolfgangPG]

I can agree with that :) I really enjoy using the Windows 8 RP at home. I am able to run all of my PC games just fine (thanks to AMD's drivers) and have enjoyed the improved multimonitor support. I actually even like some of the "apps".

Re:stopped using it?

[Main Gauche]

I'd never heard of 'pinning' something to the task bar before this article....??

That's right, you hadn't.

Re:stopped using it?

[StuartHankins]

I have always organized my start menu, primarily because I have so much software installed; for instance "Remote" has IP utilities, FTP clients, PuTTY, VNC, VMWare, etc etc. I can launch almost any program in 3 or fewer clicks so it's pretty simple. Quick Launch shows the most used items in a separate area for me, which I prefer greatly over pinned items (quick, how many copies of that app are open?)

I could take the time to organize I suppose, but why bother when just typing the program name works fine.

...so what do you do when the 32-bit program you wish to run has the same name as the 64-bit version that you do not wish to run? For example, the 64-bit ODBC Administrator tool in Windows 2008 R2. What about having the same named application with multiple versions for testing, normally accessible in a hierarchical view (so you can compare behavior and output)?

When my environment is customized to my preferences, I am very efficient. I can't imagine having to query instead of single-click what I want.

There are many reasons why the "search for everything" approach doesn't work well for all users. Not to mention the wasted CPU cycles to run queries... as someone who codes for a living it bristles my hairs to do something so wasteful. I have at least 1 VM running all day on my laptop and sometimes as many as 3, not counting the host OS. I don't need or want my hand held for such basic things and would rather use my resources for other matters.

Re:stopped using it?

[Altus]

Quite a bit like the OSX dock actually.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

It doesn't surprise me. The start menu was never perfect for launching common apps. What it is good at is being a standard place for installers to put a bookmark. For applications that you don't know the name of, the Start menu is the best we have seen. For applications that you do know the name of but don't use every day, the search box is pretty good. For applications that you use every day, pinning to the task bar is best.

MS's failing is that they don't realize that just because an action is done less often, it doesn't mean that it isn't important.

Re:stopped using it?

[KushInMyJ]

LMFAO right i know it. not a single person i know doesn't use the start button. Well of corse unless running a different OS. Microsoft knows what we want lmao.

Re:stopped using it?

[Joce640k]

Sounds to me like Windows 8 will be the next Vista. Let's wait for Windows 9.

Re:stopped using it?

[Altus]

They could put it in a place that takes up less valuable screen real estate if it's used far less often.

Re:stopped using it?

[Patch86]

Agreed, that's how I open 99% of programmes under Windows 7 these days. The only things pinned to my taskbar are Firefox and a shortcut to my home folder. The only icons on my desktop are a few "work in progress" files and folders.

I haven't tried Windows 8 yet, so I've no idea what they've replaced the Start Menu with under non-Metro; if it doesn't have an equivalent feature, then that's pure and unadulterated fail.

Re:stopped using it?

[John Bokma]

From what I understand MS actually tests with users. The "problem", though, is that those users greatly differ (or are perceived as different) from most readers here.

Re:stopped using it?

[just_a_monkey]

How do you start a second instance of the program (without going to the Start menu) if its icon gets swapped for its taskbar entry when you start it?

Re:stopped using it?

[91degrees]

So, MS spend time and research and get actual data, and actually innovate. Everyone is highly critical and asserts that MS should rely on their anecdotal evidence instead, and not change things at all.

Re:stopped using it?

[Altus]

Yea, and you have to discount number 420 because he is high all the time.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

This isn't a failing of the parent. Most people in a business environment don't need a general purpose computer. The only reason the company should put them on one is that the general purpose computer can be turned from one custom computer to another without buying new hardware. Most corporate users only need a few programs. I don't use all of the inputs on my TV. I am glad they are there if I need them, but not using them when I don't need them is not a failing.

If you have less than a dozen applications that you use, and you use them all of the time, pinning to the taskbar is better. The icons will already be there since the applications will generally be open. Pinning them just becomes an improvement in consistancy. The start menu's benefit is in finding applications that you don't use daily, and you might not know the name of.

Re:stopped using it?

[David_Hart]

I use the Quick Launch for everything. I have it set to not show text or titles and the view set to small icons. I have about 45 icons on my Quick Launch bar on my XP system at work and about 60 on my Windows 7 home system. I basically have all of my apps one click away. I very rarely use the Start menu unless it is for a very rarely used application.

You can add the Quick Launch bar back on Windows 7. Looks like you can do this with Windows 8 as well using the same method.
http://blogs.computerworld.com/19842/how_to_bring_back_the_quick_launch_toolbar_to_the_windows_8_desktop

The only time I store documents on my desktop is for unfinished work (Word doc, Visio diagram, etc). Once the project is over, I clean up my desktop and move relevant documentation to the project or support folders on the corporate network.

Re:stopped using it?

[gbjbaanb]

I can only imagine its people who:

use 2 apps on their task bar: "web" and "mail".

Everything else is launched by opening a document, so I can see how MS would get such data.

This still doesn't mean that the start menu isn't useful - like a first-aid kit you keep in the cupboard, you never use it so therefore its not useful to have. Its that kind of thinking that's also given us full-screen metro apps.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

And MS not understanding that obvious statement is their failing.

Re:stopped using it?

[Sparton]

Quite a bit like the OSX dock actually.

And it was a damn good idea to copy it, as well.

One of the other things they've started to copy is how "would you like to save" dialogs. Instead of opaque "yes" and "no", where you need to read the popup to know what it's asking you, some programs have "Save", "Don't Save", and "Cancel", like what is apparently used on OSX.

That said, not all of Win7's programs do that (MS Paint does, but Sticky Notes don't), and I believe I heard how Lion was doing something along the lines of just knowing to save and reload to that state the next time you launched the program, so... chalk another one for Microsoft being slightly behind on things?

Re:stopped using it?

[Missing.Matter]

For a desktop, the power button will do that. For laptops, I never turn them off; they always go to sleep mode. For any other time there's ctrl+alt+del.

Re:stopped using it?

[jez9999]

That sounds like something that would be used at a bris.

Re:stopped using it?

[chromas]

Middle click it.

Re:stopped using it?

[Missing.Matter]

That was a terrible system, since to move to an item, you had to move over other item which would inadvertantly open them up, covering the item you were really going for, so you'd have to do this roundabout path with your mouse to close the window you opened accidentally. Or the other case is when you're drilling down the start menu to try to get to an item 3 layers deep, if you moved off the 15px target area it would open up a new item so you had to start over again. Very frustrating to people who do not have good eyesight or hand dexterity.

Re:stopped using it?

[thetoadwarrior]

To be fair a lot f casuals have *everything* on their desktop so if you ask the right people they may be right.

Re:stopped using it?

[digitig]

Pinning only makes sense for a few commonly-used apps, because it's completely unstructured. If I were to put all of the apps I ever use onto the taskbar I'd need a taskbar the length of a football pitch. I was at a conference yesterday, and one of the presenters used the taskbar to open the product he wanted to demonstrate and it took him an age to scroll along and find the one he wanted (it was on a Mac, not MS Windows, but it seems to be essentially the same design with a bit of extra animation). I would have been there in three clicks of a menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[cyberchondriac]

I'd never heard of 'pinning' something to the task bar before this article....??

I believe they're referring to the Quick Launch toolbar feature. You could add other toolbars too.

Re:stopped using it?

[samoanbiscuit]

No, usability data is like voting. If you don't vote, don't expect the people you like to gain office. Similarly, if you don't want to participate in the data gathering, don't expect usability changes to evolve in directions you want them to go.

Re:stopped using it?

[robthebloke]

Right click, and select the app name, third up from bottom of the menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[BaldingByMicrosoft]

I'm not seeing this as an example, so I'm mentioning it:

I do pin most everything I need -- to the Start Menu! I don't pin anything to the taskbar.

Everything I need is one click away, and the only thing on my taskbar is the Start button and the list of tasks that are running.

That Start Menu list can be expanded... I have 14 pinned applications plus 4 of the automagically populated "recently used" apps.

What's really nice is when you pin something like Word, Excel, Firefox, PuTTY, Remote Desktop Client, etc. -- you get a list of both pinnable and recently used documents, URLs, sites, computers, etc.

Re:stopped using it?

[sorak]

Insightful comment from the FA. They are surveying the novice users not power users, hence they produced a Win8 interface for novices, not us:

Windows: Made for people who don't know what the hell they're doing, by people who don't know what the hell they're doing.

Re:stopped using it?

[KingMotley]

Same way you do in Windows 7... Right click it on the taskbar.

Re:stopped using it?

[ljw1004]

[ the little box you can tick that says "Send anonymous usage data to Microsoft"]

Oh. The thing everyone and their brother is told to NEVER check!

Who tells people not to check that button?

I've never heard that advice.

Re:stopped using it?

[BLToday]

They got their focus group from the Microsoft cafeteria.

I agree, I'm about the only person on Win7 that rarely touches the Start Menu. Most people I know just defaults to the Start Menu because it's the thing they've been using since Win95. Or they drop a shortcut to their desktop and launch their applications from there.

Re:stopped using it?

[vux984]

The only way pinning can work well is if they reinvent the start menu, but disguise it as something else.

like the metro start screen?

http://ssk.aurality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Metro-Start-Menu-All-Apps.png

Re:stopped using it?

[Delarth799]

I unpinned everything and just put the old quickstart menu back.

Re:stopped using it?

[LandDolphin]

Not sure I'd want not running aps to appear on my taskbar.

Re:stopped using it?

[Lucky_Norseman]

Assuming you know exactly which program you want. At work I am constantly using 3 or 4 remote, virtual and local dekstops. None of which have the same set of software.
By using the Start menu I can instantly spot if the one I am currently using has MS, Open or Libre Office. All three let me edit a document, but I don't really care which is on which desktop. I just want to edit a document.
And if I want to edit XML then I look for XMLSpy first, then Notepad++ and if neither of them are available either eclipse or plain notepad.
One glance at the Start Menu tells me which I have to choose from on this particurlar desktop.

Re:stopped using it?

[vux984]

And that functionality been replaced by the metro start screen. Whoop-de-doo.

Re:stopped using it?

[mcgrew]

I actually love the ribbon.

Well, not all of us are masochists. You probably like being hit on the head, too.

Re:stopped using it?

[__aaqvdr516]

How do you start a second instance of the program (without going to the Start menu) if its icon gets swapped for its taskbar entry when you start it?

You right click the entry on the taskbar and select the program. It's the 3rd option up, just above 'close window' and 'unpin from taskbar'

Re:stopped using it?

[spauldo]

Sure it does.

Here's one. It was actually fairly popular back when I first started using Linux. Redhat defaulted to it at one point, I think (not sure on that - I've never taken to redhat).

Besides, who are we kidding? The GNOME launcher and the K button are essentially the same thing. XFCE on Debian has a button that does the same thing. Windows 95 might have been a horrible, broken piece of crap, but they got the start button right, and it's been copied all over the place.

Re:stopped using it?

[greymond]

I mostly don't. I have my main apps I use everyday pinned to the taskbar and then my games have their icons on the desktop. The only time I ever used the start menu is to bring up the search box so I can type in the name of a new program I just installed or a file.

Outside of the IT world, what would a typical user need that is in their start menu?

Re:stopped using it?

[Solandri]

This whole thing reminds me of fashion - what's in is out, what's old is new. Way back when Windows 95 introduced the Start button, I saw the same arguments in reverse. In Windows 3.1, we did the equivalent of pinning by putting the app's launch icon on the desktop or in a folder. There was a huge controversy when the Start button was introduced, about how it was better, easier for people to find stuff, etc. Now we're getting comments about how pinning is better, easier for people to find stuff, etc.

I worry that, like fashion, it's just change for the sake of change. UI elements should be made visible (or made available as options) or hidden based on functionality. e.g.

The only time I've seen staff use the Start button here is to log off when they're done with the machine. If there was a button on the taskbar to do that, they'd never use the Start menu at all!

No, you want the log off command buried in a secondary menu, not available on the regular desktop. Otherwise you'll get mad users complaining about how they were working on something important, accidentally clicked log off, and the computer dutifully shut down all their apps (before they could save) and kicked them off the system.

Some things you want hidden under multiple clicks, some things you want available as a single click. But if you have too many of the single-click things, the desktop can get cluttered and messy to navigate. It's all a balancing act.

Re:stopped using it?

[mcgrew]

If you don't like it, you have many options including not upgrading to Windows 8

Yeah, like now you can buy a computer without upgrading from XP to Windows 7?

or applying what will most certainly be a large array of hacks, tweaks, and UI modifications to get windows working the way you want it to

Hell of a lot easier to just install Linux and be rid of that damned POS Windows, no hacks or tweaks necessary.

Re:stopped using it?

[dodgerfan]

Their focus group would consist of probably most, if not all, home users and lot of business users. Microsoft gets data directly from Windows users as anonymous usage statistics. It's the same way that they know that most people don't use Windows Media Center.

Re:stopped using it?

[rtechie]

It's not focus grouped. MS tracks behavior in Windows 7 through the Customer Experience Improvement Program. Home users have to explicitly disable this and if you're joined to a domain (corporate network) this can only be disabled by admins. So most people were probably reporting.

And that data showed that people were navigating the Start Menu, as opposed to using shortcuts pinned to the Taskbar and Desktop, less and less.

If you're using the Start Menu a lot then you're in a distinct minority of Windows 7 users.

Re:stopped using it?

[dissy]

The only time I've seen staff use the Start button here is to log off when they're done with the machine. If there was a button on the taskbar to do that, they'd never use the Start menu at all!

In case you actually wanted to provide that, it's pretty easy to do.

Create a shortcut, and make the target:
C:\windows\system32\shutdown.exe -L

Then you can change it's icon to a custom one, or just browse to \windows\system32\shell32.dll and pick the normal icon out of there.

The -L flag is log off. You also have -r to reboot and -s to shutdown.

Similarly, you can make a "lock terminal" icon too.
Create a shortcut and make the target:
C:\windows\system32\rundll32.exe user32.dll,LockWorkStation

Ironically, the last one there is very useful on application servers if you have any programs that run as servers but are not a real service.
I have one server scripted to auto login as administrator, and then a few shortcuts in the program menus "startup" folder, prefixed with numbers to provide an order.
The very last icon in the startup folder is named "9999-Lock" which is the above shortcut.

On boot up, the server auto logs in, runs the crap software, and locks the terminal. This all happens in a few seconds, so anyone local at the console would not have any chance to do much before it locked on them. You still need the password to unlock just the same as login, so its pretty secure if your servers are locked away in a server room.

Re:stopped using it?

[Golddess]

Not the AC, but the quick launch still exists in Windows 7. It isn't accessible by default, but it's there.

And I disagree about pinning working better. Quicklaunch always displays its icons in the same location. Pinning shifts the bloody icons around. "What's that? You opened a new Firefox window? Well now the Chrome icon has shifted to the right / next row". No thank you. It's bad enough that all Firefox windows, all Chrome windows, all notepad windows, etc, get placed next to each other.

Re:stopped using it?

[rtechie]

MCEIP was opt-out, not opt-in, and anyone joined to a domain can't opt-out. So it's pretty clear that the majority (even pirates) of Windows 7 boxes were reporting stats.

Re:stopped using it?

[vux984]

By using the Start menu I can instantly spot if the one I am currently using has MS, Open or Libre Office. All three let me edit a document, but I don't really care which is on which desktop.

Have you tried looking at the document icon... as someone familiar with all 3 you should know what the icons look like.

I just want to edit a document.

double click on the document you want to edit. Who uses the start menu of all things for this?

And if I want to edit XML then I look for XMLSpy first, then Notepad++ and if neither of them are available either eclipse or plain notepad.

One glance at the Start Menu tells me which I have to choose from on this particurlar desktop.

My current computer is under a week old, and the start menu already has 43 entries. My last computer has closer to 300. The start menu has never been "one glance" to see what's installed. One glance to see the 10 most recently used applications maybe... but after that... the windows 8 metro start screen actually is probably better for hunting for stuff when you don't even know what is installed.

Meanwhile... in a situation like yours... if you need specific apps, pin them, stick shortcuts in a folder and pin that, or make a jump list, or figure out a solution... you sound like a power user... act like one :)

Re:stopped using it?

[icebraining]

What's wrong with maximizing every window? /tilling WM user.

Re:stopped using it?

[rtechie]

> Oh. The thing everyone and their brother is told to NEVER check!

By whom? Almost no home users installed Windows 7 themselves. They all have copies pre-installed by OEMs who all left this on. And as I've said above, on corporate networks this is turned on and off at the Domain level (and I haven't seen one business do this except a few that were pirating Windows) , so corporate users CAN'T turn this off. Based on my experience, I'd guess 70-80% of Windows 7 installs left MCEIP on. The only big exception would be OEMs pirating WIndows in China, etc.

Re:stopped using it?

[Leafheart]

I pin a bunch of stuff. I love that I can then use win-1, win-2, etc... to launch the pinned apps. The Windows 7 UI is one of the most keyboard friendly UI's I've used.

You can do taht??? Holy crap I didn't know! Damn, I was missing a lot of it. I have my 4 browsers pinned there (i'm a web developer) and damn, that is useful.

Re:stopped using it?

[dissy]

I maintain a clean desktop, too. My trick since the windows 95 days is to put shortcuts to stuff I use frequently into a desktop folder, which I keep open all the time. With the taskbar on the left side of the screen, it's easy to select the folder when I need to run one of the things in it, otherwise it's the Start button.

I have a similar trick, but using menus instead of having a folder window open all the time.
Under my user folder is a "Toolbars" folder. Inside that is one folder per menu I want.
"Apps" and "Servers" are my main ones. Apps are my frequently used apps, and Servers contains .RDP files to different machines to remote into.

Then you right-click the taskbar, go to toolbars, and "New toolbar...". Select one of those folders and it pops up in an ugly way. Right-click on the toolbar icon itself, and you can set it to Not display the icon, Do display the label, and then resize it to fit the name.

This gives me a "Servers >>" label in the taskbar, and if you click the ">>" part, it opens a menu with whatever you put in the real folder.

It looks cleanest when the names are one word and short (No more than 8-9 letters)

You can also right-click on the text of the label and hit "Open Folder" to bring up the actual explorer window, either to use as you currently do or just to change things around.

Since I try to keep my desktop clear of icons (But usually fail at it after a short time), I also keep a toolbar pointing to my desktop folder. Then I can hide the desktop icons completely, but still access them through a menu, open it in a folder, or just re-enable desktop icons depending on my mood at the moment.

If anything however, this is more like having many start menus, instead of getting rid of my only start menu. I tend to dislike the real start menu due to app installers just generally making a horrid mess of it that I finally got sick and tired of fighting to keep organized.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

Likely not. The start button is the best way to date for someone new to the system to discover the features of that system. I set my son up with his first computer just after his first birthday. I spent about 5 minutes showing him how moving the mouse would move the cursor on the screen, and how pushing buttons made letters appear. I then showed him how to load gCapris via the 'start menu' (It was Ubuntu, so technically it wasn't a 'start menu', but in practice it was the same thing).

After a couple of hours, I came back and spent about 10 minutes showing him how to expand, minimize, close applications and how to properly shut down and start up the computer and left him to his own devices on that machine.

Within a couple of days, he was proficient as a user. He could start the machine up, run his favorite applications, and shut the machine down. He what programs where there, and which ones he liked via discovery from the start menu. He didn't learn to read for almost another 2 years. There is no way that being able to type the name of the applications would have been usable.

While the benefits of discovery are exaggerated when discussing a 1 year old, they are still there for all users.

Re:stopped using it?

[ieatcookies]

Wait, the people actually providing the feedback got what they wanted... and you think they're the morons?

Re:stopped using it?

[HapSlappy_2222]

I still use a Quick Launch toolbar I created, and an address bar toolbar I created to accept standard windows commands. There are 3 rows of 8 icons for the apps I commonly use, but the moment all 24 icons aren't visible, it's useless to me for exactly the reason you point out. Anything beyond that 24 just stays in the start menu (I could go to 4 rows but my taskbar is pretty tall as it is).

From a physical standpoint, it makes sense, too; my quick launch is on the lower right of my screen, next to my system tray, and the address bar is just to the left of that, which is good for right handed clicking or dropping a cursor into the address bar for a quick system search/command/web search. My start button is at the default lower left, so I do it all with a left handed stroke of the Win key. This is the most efficient way I've ever used Windows, and I love it.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

Or the air bags in your car that you haven't used since you bought it....

Re:stopped using it?

[HapSlappy_2222]

"Fetch me pizza."
"Deposit my paycheck."
"Repair my credit."
"Get me laid."

If only we'd been focusing all our efforts on command line improvements instead of gui "improvements"; maybe we'd have evolved the commands above instead of given ourselves carpal tunnel.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

Tell that to my child who was using a PC almost 2 years before he could read. Let me guess... Your one of those people that think children should have access to technology. (For whatever random year you have picked for 'technology' to count as technology)

Re:stopped using it?

[hairyfeet]

Shit, mod the parent up to 11, because if I was to pin every damned thing to the taskbar? I'd need a 70 inch screen bare minimum. Not only do i use the pics and docs folders in the start menu, i have a half a dozen programs pinned there that I use often, including 2 Popsel buttons which are like the best thing evar. With the popsels i have a red&black A/V icon along with a blue and yellow util which when i click on them gives me ALL my audio video programs and utilities, man if i had to pin those? Hell I even have all my share drives under the util popsel.

So I don't know where they get their info from, maybe the old folks home, but I have a grand total of 5 icons in my taskbar and two of those are defaults, the Explorer and WMP, the other 3 are two browsers and a burner. And I can tell you from working all day with average folks that the taskbar? don't get used at all, in fact many don't even have it on in Win 7, they just dump every damned thing onto the desktop, icons, folders, you name it it ALL goes on the desktop. I swear i've seen some of them where you can't even see the backgrounds for the amount of shit they pile on the desktop.But even those folks when they want to find something hit the start and go to all programs, so i just don't see what users supposedly aren't ever using start.

Personally i think its that old saying about lies and statistics because MSFT don't have the balls to just come out and say "Look we just wanna sell cell phones okay? We are gonna give you a shitty cell phone OS so we can trick devs into working on the WinPhone, so here ya go, its the supergigantic smartphone that you don't want and we don't care, because dammit we just want to be Apple!" although frankly I'd have more respect for them if they did just be honest.

Re:stopped using it?

[Idbar]

Furthermore, right-clicking on pinned apps let you open recently open files, and actually pin those files as well.

If you have a VS Project you work constantly, you can pin it in the VS Pinned icon. If you have a folder you have to open constantly, you can pin it to the explorer pinned button.

Some other thing people don't know about those little icons, is that if you middle-click them, you create another instance of the application. Need 2 explorers to easily move files from one to other? Double middle-click on the explorer pinned icon, and boom.

Re:stopped using it?

[HapSlappy_2222]

Hey! I maximize all my windows and have a desktop full of icons, you insensitive clod!

Of course, I do image and layout editing and printing for a living, and my desktop truly is a desktop workspace, with the files going back into their storage folders when a project is complete. It's much easier to visually organize like files for a publication on the desktop than from inside a bunch of file folders, kinda like how a jigsaw puzzle is much easier to finish by spreading the pieces on a table than pulling out a handful at a time from various drawers.

For anything technical or launching applications, I still use the start button, quick launch, and Windows key as much as the next guy.

Re:stopped using it?

[webheaded]

Well if you search for and then start a program, you can pin it right there on the taskbar. It makes an icon there, obviously, because you are running it so all you do is right click an already running application to pin it.

Re:stopped using it?

[garyoa1]

They just had to create a new "command" with a new word. Pinning. Placing crap on your taskbar is ancient. Pinning it is new. Same thing just different. ;)

Re:stopped using it?

[HapSlappy_2222]

What if, when a new user is trained on their machine, instead of showing them how to pin programs to the task bar, you showed them how to use the start menu?

I think you've set up a self-fulfilling prophecy here. :)

Re:stopped using it?

[drkstr1]

You have that completely backwards. The whole point of pinning is so the icons stay in the same place! And what do you mean the icons are placed next to each other? The icons for open windows all grouped by application, with a visual indicator for multiple windows of the same app. Have you even used Windows 7? Am I being trolled or something?

Re:stopped using it?

[HapSlappy_2222]

Or, perhaps, Microsoft could have made it an actual study, with an actual termination date, with an actual description of why the study was taking place, with an actual metric score of efficiency that the participants could see. You know, to give you a chance to know what you're voting for instead of never knowing exactly why MCEIP is sending yet another round of the same data it sent yesterday.

Re:stopped using it?

[HapSlappy_2222]

They'll pin a pin menu at the factory, but not allow you to pin things to the pin menu lest it revert to a start menu; rather the pin menu lets you pin pins to the pin bar on the task bar. See? That's not so hard.

Re:stopped using it?

[jmerlin]

Apple menu vs Start menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[jmerlin]

I routinely use and open 50 different applications on a daily basis. No, I don't want to pick 4 or 5 that I "almost always open" and put them on my pin list, because things that I use constantly are ALWAYS OPEN, which means I don't need them pinned. What I do, instead, is create a folder full of shortcuts or 1-off programs (like putty) to my desktop and add it to my PATH. Then Winkey + R and a very simple to remember word (which I can execute 1-2 seconds for every app I use often) launches it. I'm used to working in linux terminals for hours and so this setup is much more flexible and powerful to me than pins. It also has the benefit of only requiring me to copy that folder back to my desktop and add it to my PATH (this can be done with a simple script, too) whenever I reinstall windows, instead of needing to pin all of my apps to the taskbar and then ordering them so my winkey+\d shortcuts are consistent.

Re:stopped using it?

[RichDiesal]

Who the hell is their focus group? I've not met a single person who doesn't use the start button.

I believe they collect anonymous click data. But guess who disables/declines collection of anonymous click data? People who actually know how to use their computers.

Re:stopped using it?

[jmerlin]

GPO abuse for "security" reasons to lock-down the usability of Windows is a major anti-feature. I'm not sure why Microsoft has left half of these things available to be enabled/disabled via Registry, they are fundamental usability systems built into Windows. The "recently used" stuff should be per-user anyway, so unless you are implementing the anti-pattern of always-signed-on-kiosk-account or everyone-uses-the-same-login type terminals, the benefits of such a feature have already been provided by account separation. But then again, I guess it was born of Admins using anti-patterns begging for the ability to require them to change nothing.

Re:stopped using it?

[Billly Gates]

Who the hell is their focus group? I've not met a single person who doesn't use the start button.

According to a different article linked on www.tomshardware.com, their focus group only includes users who signed up with the Customer Improvement program.

So basically n00bs and consumers who have it installed use it as the program is voluntary and does not include power users nor corporations who have real work to do besides browsing the internet and playing farmville. So real users who have 5 programs opened that cut and paste between a speciality program like Autocad/Great Plains/AD tools/SAP/whatever, Excel, Word, IE/Chrome, and Outlook at work are not counted. Power users rarely use the taskbar pin ups as the take up space when you have 10 minimized apps. At least I do not use it but maybe that is my preference.

So the metrics are all screwed up and frankly broken. Maybe Grandma or that 12 year old little girl who IMs her friends and occasionally write a paper for her 6th grade would love METRO and that is who was counted.

Re:stopped using it?

[Billly Gates]

By far my favorite feature of Win7. Windows key -> type want I want to run (usually under 4 characters) -> Enter. Very efficient.

I know of no regular users that understand pinning. Myself, I only pin my email and web browsers (by far my most frequently used programs) and nothing else.

Well if METRO had a taskbar to pin I would not be so anti Windows 8. One app maximizes the whole screen and you lose your focus to check every time is unacceptable when you have 5 programs opened or heaven forbid a half dozen word and excel files opened as well.

So this does not make sense if pinnings were so great Metro should have a task bar

Re:stopped using it?

[pkinetics]

Good, cause its getting ridiculously slow in Win 7, and I haven't added anything to my Win 7 side... Oh wait... Windows patches.

Re:stopped using it?

[Billly Gates]

That's great if you know what you're looking for, but if you're searching for a specific app you rarely use and don't remember the name of it would be highly inefficient and frustrating.

It can also read documents too. Just type in some description of what you want and files start to pop up and Windows through a MIME will auto launch the right application. I find this a great productivity boast and reason to dump XP. XP loyalists do not know about this feature and just whine about the all programs being different and miss the point.

Re:stopped using it?

[PlusFiveTroll]

Only problem is that the 'metro' screen is going to look like dogshit flattened under a steamroller on any workstation with more then a few apps, on one wants to scroll twenty screens to find the icon they want.

A number of applications at vets and doctors offices that I manage create a good number of start menu items that are rarely used. They are generally tucked in an admin subfolder under the start menu.

Saying go to the start menu > program name > admin > tlvd_unfuck_database-shortcut is pretty easy to visually guide someone to because they'll only be a few icons that show up in the folder. Telling someone to type 'Tom Lema Victor Delta underscore You Nnn Eff...' in the start menu where every exe that starts with tlvd shows up first will suck.

What is going to happen when they are installed on Win8? Are piles of new icons going to show up on the metro screen? Are the subfolders going to be on a subfolder icon on metro? Trying to fix all the legacy crap out there will kill a lot of migration to Win 8 for a long time coming.

Re:stopped using it?

[Chas]

I didn't say that.

But, how many people are there who fit the following criteria:

1. * Know what a representative sample is
2. * Understand statistics properly
3. * In actual decision-making positions to actually make a difference when stupid interface changes like this are shit out, scooped up, and fed to the masses?

Re:stopped using it?

[freeze128]

The users stopped using it because Microsoft F***in BROKE it! Ever since Windows XP, I have been manually setting the start menu to CLASSIC, because that is WHAT I WANT. I want a menu that opens a bunch of folders. It worked in Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Windows XP (with help), but then they removed it in Vista/Windows 7.

People stopped using the start menu because Microsoft engineered it that way. It's their fault and no one else's.

Re:stopped using it?

[hairyfeet]

Ya know, maybe someone that has kept up with the Ubuntu forums can explain that to me, because i just don't get it. I mean every damned thing I see nowadays is widescreen, so why put the fricking bar vertical? Now don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against dock style launchers, in fact on all my Windows machines i have Rocketdock set to autohide at the bottom of my desktop with about 15 programs and folders so I DO get docks, i just don't get WTF they were thinking by making it ONLY vertical.

Re:stopped using it?

[Austerity Empowers]

I'm pin crazy to, I pin to the start menu. I always have so many applications open I need the taskbar space to identify them

Ribbons, unity...start menu. I think we're devolving UIs so that we can fix them back later, and charge twice.

Re:stopped using it?

[CCarrot]

The only way pinning can work well is if they reinvent the start menu, but disguise it as something else.

like the metro start screen?

http://ssk.aurality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Metro-Start-Menu-All-Apps.png

Wow...the ugliness of it all just took my breath away...

Okay, Win 7 for the next ten years it is, then.

Re:stopped using it?

[LurkerXXX]

Right-click on the pinned app brings up a menu which will let you close the app, start another instance of the app, etc

Re:stopped using it?

[LurkerXXX]

I'm sure lots of folks wouldn't want it either. No need to do it then.

Lots of others of us love the feature. I typically have about 25 + apps/windows running at once. I used to do what MS found a lot of people doing. The would open applications up in the same order every time they logged in so that the apps would be in the same general location in the tasbar. Keeping them ordered saves a lot of time hunting for the app you know is already running. By having the high use apps already pinned, you now know where they are going to be.

Re:stopped using it?

[WolfgangPG]

All about MultiMonitor support: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/05/21/enhancing-windows-8-for-multiple-monitors.aspx

I like the advanced taskbar options about moving the icons to the taskbar where the application is open and a few other tidbits.

As for "I can still play my games" -- it is still a beta OS with Beta drivers. So I am happy that the drivers are good enough that my games don't constantly crash.

In addition I like the start screen. I like how you can create and label groups on the start screen, I enjoy live tiles, and I find I am as fast if not faster when using the OS than I am in Windows 7.

I am also a fan of the metro design language -- I am happy to see Aero go and welcome the new flat squared off look.

I have installed the CP and now RP on my Desktop, Laptop, my Wife's Laptop and my mom's. All of us have enjoyed moving to W8. My wife does not like Metro and lives entirely in the desktop with her 4 pinned applications.

My mom on the other hand enjoys the apps and splits time between traditional Desktop IE and new Metro Apps like USA Today.

Check out this video if you have the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJUqX5avAi0

IE 10 Windows 8 Tip
In Windows 8 go to Desktop.
Load Desktop IE 10 (Desktop IE is basically IE like you use in Windows 7, just IE10).
Hit the Gear in the Top Right Corner
Select Internet Options
Click the Programs Tab
Under "Choose how you open links."
Select "Always in Internet Explorer on the desktop" and check the Checkbox "Open Internet Explorer tiles on the desktop".

Re:stopped using it?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find myself using the Search function in the Start menu more. Just type the first few letters of the program I want to open and BAM motherfuckers! It starts.

The problem is that you have to know what letters to type.

That's fine for experienced users. But for beginning users, they don't have a clue what letters to type.

The structured hierarchy of the Start menu is essential for discoverability of the system. That's not only crucially important for new users, but it's also essential for experienced users who wonder if some particular type of program is on their system but they're unsure of the name.

Re:stopped using it?

[richlv]

i plead incompetence

Re:stopped using it?

[high_rolla]

Kinda similar to when FF started gaining market share. MS was very vocal in stating that people didn't want tabs, that tabs were a fad, that they were useless. Then when people didn't believe them they eventually added tabs to IE.

Wonder if similar will happen here?

Re:stopped using it?

[rasmusbr]

Most people (people in general, not IT workers and other nerds) only use a web browser, a music player and perhaps a messenger/voip program and a couple of office programs. I bet more than 95% of all users use fewer than 10 apps in any given month. You can easily fit those to the taskbar on a modern widescreen laptop.

So yeah, I bet Microsoft is basically right when they say that 'nobody' uses the start menu if we assume reasonable values (less than 5%) for 'somebody'.

Re:stopped using it?

[lightknight]

If MS's problem is with the users here, then MS's problem is with the developers & IT support people for its platform. That's a hell of a problem.

A smaller company might, given the rather vocal & enthusiastic bashing of its not-even-released-yet product, take a step back, and seriously ponder that.

Re:stopped using it?

[rasmusbr]

Last time I checked the search function could not find partial matches in a natural way. For example searching for "terminal" would not find an app named "Yet another terminal app", while searching for "Y" or "Ye" or "Yet" would find the app.

I've been using Ubuntu as my main OS for a while now so I don't know if that has been fixed.

Re:stopped using it?

[LurkerXXX]

Windows 8 is going to go over worse than Vista with these ham-fisted changes trying to put a phone/tablet interface on a desktop.

Re:stopped using it?

[gweilo8888]

Exactly, and I would add that I've been on Win7 on multiple machines for... well, since not long after it came out, and I've never (intentionally) pinned anything to the task bar on any machine, nor will I ever do so. (Pinning things by accident and then having to unpin them, that happens all the time.) Nor do I know a single Win7 user who has ever intentionally pinned anything.

This is the (*@^#$ Office ribbon all over again... Microsoft trying to ram worse, even less intuitive GUI down our throats in a desperate attempt to shift us to something new that can be patented, and we can be forced to buy all over again.

Re:stopped using it?

[John Bokma]

So it's a majority of normal users v.s. the slashdot crowd..... Tough decision, right? And yeah, yeah, I know this is all over-generalization. But MS seems to have measured all this and done some research. TBH I trust that more than a handful of anecdotes posted on Slashdot were people seem to disagree with every research result anyway or know it better because insert personal experience.

Anyway, we have to wait and see. I am somewhat afraid that the "best" MS OS was Windows XP

Re:stopped using it?

[colinrichardday]

KDE does.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

Need 2 explorers to easily move files from one to other? Double middle-click on the explorer pinned icon, and boom.

i'd use win+e for that :p

Re:stopped using it?

[Attila Dimedici]

Which of course means it is much harder to tell what applications are running in Win 7. It drives me nuts.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

i know of a few people who use their widescreen monitors sideways.......probably somewhere in the realm of half a percent so ONLY vertical would be stupid, but as an option it's not bad.

maybe the devs where in that half a percent?

Re:stopped using it?

[Kanasta]

And it's lucky that you only have 9 programs installed!

Re:stopped using it?

[modmans2ndcoming]

If an app is running then it has a little box around it. if there are multiple windows open for an app it has a stacked look. If it is not running then it is simply the app icon. Pretty simple and intuitive.....Just like Windows 7

Re:stopped using it?

[Areyoukiddingme]

Not only this, but power users go even further. Irritated by the gratuitous (and unfriendly) changes Win7 made to the start menu, tens of thousands of us are now using http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ the Start Menu replacement. It undoubtedly isn't counted by any MCEIP code, even if it were opted in. More than likely, a Windows 8 version will be created too, so fear not, your Start Menu is recoverable.

Oh, and it's open source.

Re:stopped using it?

[93 Escort Wagon]

By far my favorite feature of Win7. Windows key -> type want I want to run (usually under 4 characters) -> Enter. Very efficient.

Yup, Spotlight is awesome that way.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

you're forgetting solitaire. noone pins that to the taskbar.

Re:stopped using it?

[CheshireDragon]

True, but the dock is actually all on its own. I have never had the dock crash the OS, but if the taskbar crashes out there goes the rest of explorer.exe

Re:stopped using it?

[CheshireDragon]

I remember simply dragging and dropping to the Quick Launch bar. If I had to locate an app without the shortcut, I traipse through the directory tree and right-click drag and drop the EXE and save as a shortcut. Not sure what difficult way you went about it, but it must be Linux. Seriously, once I started using Linux I started doing everything the hard way :/

Re:stopped using it?

[ais523]

I never really pinned stuff much in Win7, just email and browser; but now I'm using Ubuntu Unity (which has a basically identical taskbar apart from its position on the screen, right down to the pinning behaviour, and the Super+digit combo to switch to or launch a pinned application), I've pinned a whole load of programs so that they have consistent locations on the task bar (improving muscle memory), even when it makes little sense to launch them directly (e.g. Totem).

However, I still use the Start button equivalent on occasion; I have 10 programs pinned (the ones I use most often), but every now and then, I want to run something else. (And it's a different something each time, often.) If Win7 usage patterns are anything like Unity usage patterns (which wouldn't surprise me), Microsoft's telemetry is misleading them; they see that a feature is rarely used and misleading them, when that feature is the fallback that you use when you want to do something unusual.

It's a bit like the UK rail system, I guess; there are all sorts of complex railway tickets for doing various specific types of journey, and those are what you'll mostly use throughout your life. But if you want to do something unusual (like happened to me recently), you can just get a super-flexible ticket where you specify your start point and destination, and can go between them via any reasonable route, make as many stops along the way and the way back as you like, and can return at any point in the next month; it's obviously more expensive, but sometimes, you really need those options. (It'd be very rare to need all the options at once, of course; but the point is, it will have the options you happen to need.) That ticket's the Start menu of the railways; it's not going to be bought much, but it's very important that it's there.

Re:stopped using it?

[Harry in the Soup]

yep I use it a lot, not so much for the list of programs but the search box to quickly find a prog I want to run that I do not run regularly enough to pin on the bar

Re:stopped using it?

[ais523]

In general, you want to maximize windows that benefit from it. Browsers benefit from being maximised, for instance; but simple text editing, like composing emails, doesn't need large amounts of horizontal space (vertical space helps), and many simple games (think Minesweeper) don't benefit from space in either dimension.

Usually, I have one maximized window that benefits from horizontal space, or two side by side that don't; it helps to make the best use of a widescreen screen. (I also use virtual desktops; I eventually settled on 2 columns by 3 rows, with the rows for different usage patterns (work, Internet browsing, etc.), and the right-hand column dedicated for media players.)

Re:stopped using it?

[mysidia]

I don't use all of the inputs on my TV. I am glad they are there if I need them, but not using them when I don't need them is not a failing.

Sounds like a lost opportunity for the manufacturer to remove inputs, and charge more for people that need them.

That's exactly what the TV manufacturer would do if there weren't so many competitors around who would take the opportunity at the drop of a hat to advertise how their unit was more capable than the brand X unit that only has 2 inputs.

Re:stopped using it?

[mysidia]

If you press and hold "shift" while logging in, then any auto-run items won't run.

IgnoreShiftOverride can be enforced via a registry change from a Group Policy object, then holding shift while logging in will have no effect.

Re:stopped using it?

[cbhacking]

Win+M, Alt+F4.
(That's "Minimize All" followed by "Close program" for those not familiar with standard Windows shortcuts.)
Enter if I want shutdown, or select a different option.

If you know the hotkeys, the standard stuff in Windows is easy to use entirely from the keyboard. Also, many of us bind (or use computers with pre-bound) specific keys for power control. For example, I set the Power button to be "safe shutdown", the lid close action (laptop) to "suspend", and Fn+F4 (again, laptop, but it's the "sleep" key that many keyboards have) to "hibernate".

Re:stopped using it?

[jimmyfrank]

I'd like to introduce myself, I don't use the start button.

Re:stopped using it?

[jimmyfrank]

Win8 RP has improved multi monitor support.

Re:stopped using it?

[dissy]

Unless they held the shift key down as the admin auto logged in.....

GPOs prevent that.

Despite that, the server is in a secured room, in a building without general public access.

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

I think they're saying that because people were using it less and less that they would enforce that trend by making sure no one uses it ever again.

I wonder if they have facility managers at Microsoft who get rid of the first aid kits because they weren't being used very much.

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

I pin the common stuff on the task bar, less common stuff as desktop icons. But I still use the start button for the much less frequently used stuff. Just because I haven't used it in the last year does not mean I don't want to use it ever again.

Windows has this stupid habit by default of noticing that you havne't used an icon in awhile and asking if you want to get rid of it; that's the sort of mentality you have to have before you think getting rid of the start button is good idea. These guys are taking the dumb-it-down process too seriously.

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

Actually hard to pin stuff if you can't find the application in the start menu :-) Navigating through the Program Folders is a clumsy way to find applications that you don't use often.

Re:stopped using it?

[aaron552]

just knowing to save and reload to that state the next time you launched the program

Metro-style apps do this.

Re:stopped using it?

[springbox]

I like how single apps have their own category

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

A pinned application that's not running is an icon on the task bar. When you click it then it grows horizontally to become the task on the task bar. When you close it it shrinks back down to the big icon. With XP if you has a quick launch of Firefox then you'd have both the Firefox icon in one area of the bar plus the Firefox task in another area. It really is sort of a subtle difference though.

If this was MacOS then it's the equivalent of right clicking a running task in the Dock, selecting Options, then selecting "Keep in Dock".

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

I was in the focus group, and I asked them if they could use square corners everywhere.

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

This is fine. However microsoft is using that sort of information to decide to remove start button completely. To them it seems that "infrequently used by many people" is the same as "not necessary for anyone". Those 5 users of yours who use the start button, tough luck for them.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

XP just had a quick launch area, which is far inferior.

i personally find quick launch superiour for two main reasons:
1. quick launch icons are always in the same spot at the far left of my taskbar. wheres due to the fact that pinned apps expand in their spot when you click them.
so if i had pinned [chrome][winamp][current game] and had chrome and winamp open my game has now moved from the far left to somewhere closer to the middle of the taskbar.
2. with quick launch i could set the size of the quick launch area on my taskbar, if i had more icons than will fit into this space then there will be a double arrow on the right of the quick launch area that opens a list of the remaining icons including their name (which is usefull if you have two things with the same icon) it's kinda like a mini-start menu with only what you want in there. i used to have this set up with all my main programs in the main area and all my games in the pop-up menu.

right click -> pin to taskbar is much easier than right clicking in the quick launch area selecting open, and then copying shorcuts into that folder. it's a great addition but i rarely change what's in my quick launch anyway.

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

I like my ribbon too. It's blue and I got it for having a bigger sheep at the fair than the other guy. It's kind of frayed because a goat chewed on it. I hear Microsoft is proud of their ribbon too even though it's not blue like mine.

Re:stopped using it?

[psithurism]

I spend 40+ hours per week on a windows machine where I am not allowed to send out usage data if at all possible. I'm especially not allowed send error reports to anybody what so-ever no matter how much it could fix issues that really need to get fixed. I know this is pretty common in businesses for the same reason that Siri is banned in some places.

The little time I spend opening pinned games on my home computer is quite well reported though, because I like having a vote. I'm surprised Microsoft didn't report that all users seem to need is Steam and Chrome. That would make my work kinda tough though.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

The whole point of pinning is so the icons stay in the same place!

no, they stay in the same order but not in the same place.

when you open something that's pinned it expands from being just an icon to a full taskbar item with icon + text. as this is larger it pushes anything you have pinned to the right of it across a bit.

i explained it (and the other reason i prefer quick launch)in this comment

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

Hmm, I could get start screen by moving mouse to a very tiny and hard to find spot to the right, but moving it where the start button was did nothing.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

thank-you, i really missed quick launch and will definately be adding it back when i get home :)

it's not just the absolute positioning i miss, i also like setting the size of of my quick launch too small and using the double arrows as a mini start menu for slightly less often used things (i usually have browser + winamp visible, with all my games in the menu)

Re:stopped using it?

[Darinbob]

MacOS has the Applications folder on the dock by default, with is 95% of the use of the start menu. The other 5% is covered by Command-Space to bring up Spotlight. Windows 8 makes the applications hard to find, or they were difficult to find for me. I spent a lot of time baffled by how to do certain things. I presume that if this were a real product and not a developer preview that there would have been some instructions included somewhere on how to get started. I am not making this up, but it took me an hour before it dawned on me to press the windows key! Suddenly things started working better.

This made the applications easier to use. I remember bringing up Bing News as the first thing I clicked and then being stuck (internet off, so no news). No way to leave, no way to go back to where I was, nothing to click on, 99.5% of the screen was black. I honestly told the VM to shutdown and I restarted it so I could hunt for a tutorial application. But Windows Key makes stuff happen in the apps or on the desktop on on the blocky metro apps screen.

It's like someone looked at the data and decided few people use Start button so it was removed, but then a different person with a different mindset saw data that the Windows Key was not being used and decided instead to make it useful.

Re:stopped using it?

[Teresita]

Puppy Linux has a start button, and if you right click the mouse, you get the start button menu. Maybe Microsuck could try that. They could say there's no start button, and get whatever brownie points they're looking for with that, and still have a start button menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[jeffrey.endres]

Ironically, the last one there is very useful on application servers if you have any programs that run as servers but are not a real service. I have one server scripted to auto login as administrator, and then a few shortcuts in the program menus "startup" folder, prefixed with numbers to provide an order. The very last icon in the startup folder is named "9999-Lock" which is the above shortcut.

On boot up, the server auto logs in, runs the crap software, and locks the terminal. This all happens in a few seconds, so anyone local at the console would not have any chance to do much before it locked on them. You still need the password to unlock just the same as login, so its pretty secure if your servers are locked away in a server room.

I'd suggest using a service wrapper. There are a few free ones out there. Some applications need a user context though and not all wrappers will handle that well.

Re:stopped using it?

[DragonTHC]

clever

Re:stopped using it?

[perryizgr8]

there's no lag. no more than the start menu in win7. if your pc lags in showning the start menu, maybe its time to put mint on it, or buy a newer one.

Re:stopped using it?

[Ambiguous Puzuma]

Pinning is a little bit different from Quick Launch, and is new to either Vista or 7. A pinned program icon resides in the task area of the taskbar, and when clicked, expands in place to form its taskbar entry once launched. This is handy for programs that I want at most one instance of at any given time (such as an email client). I also keep a Quick Launch toolbar where clicking on an icon simply starts a new copy of the program, better for programs I may want to run multiple copies of (such as a terminal window).
One downside of a pinned program is that there is no good way to customize the amount of space it uses. Even registry tweaks are of limited use. Pinned-but-not-running programs take up much more horizontal space than I'd like. Quick Launch icons are much more compact.
Neither is a replacement for the Start menu, which is good for the "long tail" of programs and configuration/administrative tasks--ones that individually I seldom use, but collectively have a frequent need for.

Re:stopped using it?

[perryizgr8]

if you've been using windows anytime in the last 5 years, you should have known its called snipping tool. how do you think search is supposed to work?

Re:stopped using it?

[dissy]

I'd suggest using a service wrapper. There are a few free ones out there. Some applications need a user context though and not all wrappers will handle that well.

I'm a big fan of winserv for exactly that purpose. Unfortunately as you say, I have some "servers" that add systray menu icons to access a console GUI, and access to those is pretty much required.

On the upside though, out of the three application servers I've limited all of those type apps to one server. which is the only one utilizing the auto login trick.

Not much sensitive is on it either. One app logs from all the electrostatic discharge stations on the shop floor. Another is a print server for the barcode thermals. Stuff like that.

Re:stopped using it?

[Hyperhaplo]

I have about 10 items pinned.. I tend to a pin the game shortcuts for what I am currently playing so the number of items pinned changes.. it is a nice idea and works well.. but I've found that the task bar gets quite crowded after a while.

I am really wondering what is the next level of advancement for task bars is. With my laptop's wide screen I could easily afford a few pixels up the left or right hand side.. how about a task bar just for pinned items which uses the vertical space available?

Pity you can't have multiple windows task bars, and then use a taskbar set to the side for item pinning.. anyone know if this is possible to do in XP / W7?

Re:stopped using it?

[perryizgr8]

its called folders. just like win7.

Re:stopped using it?

[Hyperhaplo]

One thing I've noticed during our Windows 7 migration is that our staff do not use the start menu at all.

Okay. We are looking at a medium sized (50K) W7 rollout here. How did you capture this information?

I am very interested in what program or utility was used, what configuration of user's machines was required, where the data captured is stored, and specifically how you know that The other 115 don't use it. .

Re:stopped using it?

[Forrest Kyle]

If you have Microsoft OneNote, you just need to press Windows-S at any time to take an instant "snip". It's very convenient.

Re:stopped using it?

[Tanath]

A combination of pinning, Launchy, and Everything means you can pretty much do without.

Re:stopped using it?

[Golddess]

Have you even used Windows 7?

Have you? If you've access to a Windows 7 box, do this.
1) Open a Firefox window, or any application.
2) Open a notepad window, or any other application that wasn't the first.
3) Open another Firefox window, or whatever application you opened in #1.

In XP, my taskbar would show the windows in the order of Firefox, notepad, Firefox. In 7, it shows them in the order of Firefox, Firefox, notepad. That is what I mean about being placed next to each other. I turned off the grouping that would combine the two Firefox windows into a single button, but it still places them next to each other. I used to use the XP method to organize my windows. I'll adapt, but that doesn't mean I'll like it.

About pinning:
1) Pin 3 different programs to the taskbar. We'll use IE, Firefox, and Chrome in this example, in that order.
2) Open a few IE windows.
3) The Firefox and Chrome icons get shifted to the right (or if you have a multi-row taskbar like me, possibly to the next row).
4) Open a few Chrome windows.
5) The Firefox button is now lost in a sea of IE/Chrome windows. Now picture a few more programs pinned to the taskbar, some open, some not. It can turn into "window window window button button window button button button window window".

Re:stopped using it?

[Z34107]

Middle-click.

Re:stopped using it?

[bondsbw]

And GP is ignoring one of the most useful features: pinned icons remain in the same location.

I use enough applications to have two pages of icons in the taskbar. It is important that I can find each icon easily. I don't want to have to hunt for wherever they happen to be this time.

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

Only if they wanted to make less money.

Re:stopped using it?

[Sosarian Avatar]

Funny thing is, I remember back when my Mac-using online friends would gloat over how OS 9 was advanced enough to not have a command line -- then several years later when Windows had essentially neutered its commandline and OS X showed up with one, they started trying to gloat over how OS X was advanced enough to have one. I always knew that my old archive of chats/email from the 90s would come in handy someday... >:-)

Re:stopped using it?

[qu33ksilver]

I find that really surprising, because I pin apps too and the items in my desktop are folders and files, no shortcuts. Now to launch a rarely used app, I use the start button. In fact, I feel to remove the start button is to move out users from their comfort zone. This is just too much of a change. There is a learning curve involved with this again, and thats just too steep.

Re:stopped using it?

[Sosarian Avatar]

In Windows 3.1, we did the equivalent of pinning by putting the app's launch icon on the desktop or in a folder.

IIRC we had to keep program icons in "program groups" (folders, really) on the desktop, but couldn't put them directly on the desktop itself. We organized icons primarily by choosing which groups they fell into, but that was about it.

I worry that, like fashion, it's just change for the sake of change.

Based on what's been going on in the Linux desktop environment world (which seems to randomly swap ideas with Windows & OS X) that's probably pretty much right, sad to say. It's always a bad sign when the devs/sycophants can only defend the new designs by accusing skeptics of hating change (especially when said skeptics are new to insert_OS_here and thus regard everything as "change" at the moment).

Re:stopped using it?

[Hadlock]

I think you can set different wallpapers for different monitors now.... something you've been able to do on any mac/linux machine since the dawn of time.

Re:stopped using it?

[_Shad0w_]

I was wondering that. I only have three things pinned to my task bar: Thunderbird, Chrome, and X-Chat. The other set of applications I use a lot (my dev tools) are pinned to the top of the Start Menu. Anything else gets launched via the "All Programs" menu under the start button. And I like to keep my desktop as uncluttered as possible - half the time it just gets used for dumping stuff I'm working with, then removed when I'm done with it.

Re:stopped using it?

[ZombieThoughts]

You can also shift + click and it'll open a new instance of said program.

Re:stopped using it?

[geedubyoo]

Programs that I use constantly are pinned because when they are open they appear as a large icon in the taskbar anyway. Programs that I use occasionally are in Quickstart, with small icons. Everything else is in the start menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[will_die]

I would say my usage is about the same, I used search because it was faster to bring things up that I used commonly but not enough to pin.
However the windows 8 search process is alot slower then it is to do with the search button. I looks prettier but that is all.

Re:stopped using it?

[gl4ss]

well, in w8 they made the ui element for opening start menu 1x1 pixels and put it in a corner.
and they made the menu take all the screen.

then they used telemetrics to prove that people don't use it, since most of the time they're doing actual work with the programs they have running.

Re:stopped using it?

[amrs]

Quick Launch is also still in Windows 7. I prefer that. Well, Autohotkey is nice too.

Re:stopped using it?

[goldgin]

5+10=15 minutes. Now let's try giving him an ipad. No offence but ... Start the machine up, shut down? are these really needed anymore?

Re:stopped using it?

[Waccoon]

I still use XP and its wonderful Quick Launch toolbar. I don't have to type anything.

I already dislike Windows 7 and the pinned toolbar. It makes it so much harder to make quick launches and move them around in the order I want, and the icons are so damn big I can't put as many icons on the taskbar.

It's bad enough I can't get my Quick Launch toolbar back and have to rely on 3rd party tools, like TrueLauchBar. Now Microsoft wants to eliminate pretty much everything that made sense over the last 15 years.

Fuck Windows 8.

Re:stopped using it?

[jbolden]

That's not the right analogy. The only start menu type functionality in the apple menu is the recent items tab, which is roughly equivalent. The analogy to the start menu, access to applications, is dragging the Applications menu to the dock. But the ability to use an arbitrary folder / smart folder on the dock is where I disagree that the Dock is less powerful than the start menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[Waccoon]

App nothing. This encompasses both the "ribbon" and "dynamic menu" paradigms.

Stop moving everything around unexpectedly. Stop hiding things. Stop making me search using keywords. Stop making suggestions. Just give me a goddamn list!

Re:stopped using it?

[SJHillman]

I have much more than 9 frequently used programs, and it's easier for me to remember that "op" is Opera or "ch" is chrome than it is to remember which number matches which program.

Re:stopped using it?

[RogerWilco]

Ah. So it basically works like the OSX dock?

Re:stopped using it?

[Eponymous Coward]

I would be careful about feeling too superior in the Linux world (I have a foot in both worlds). One of the first things I used to do when setting up a new Windows machine was installing Cygwin to get a bash shell, then complaining about needing to do that. These days I find myself wishing our Linux server had PowerShell.

On my Ubuntu laptop, I believe I am one of 4 satisfied users of Unity. The big reason is that the 'pinned' tasks in Unity can also be activate with win-#.

Frankly, I don't really get excited about the operating system or window manager these days because any OS from the past decade is more or less the same works well enough for me.

Re:stopped using it?

[Eythian]

Since my desktop is completely-clean of any icons,

You are not a standard at all.

Re:stopped using it?

[Eythian]

Well, if the smarter people wouldn't turn off the telemetry, they'd get a more appropriate UI. They really only have themselves to blame.

Re:stopped using it?

[rjstanford]

The vast majority of users - professional and home - probably only use 3-4 applications.

Web browsing, of course. Maybe email if they're not using a web client. Possibly word and/or excel. Then the game-of-the-month. If at work, maybe 1-2 specialized corporate applications. But that's about it.

Re:stopped using it?

[rtb61]

However you do not represent the majority of users. This is M$ simply being fooled into a stupid decision by their own smartness, "The telemetry gathered by the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program". This bit of what appears to be extremely invasive technology was of course turned of by most smart and business users. Now M$ has fooled itself by accepting the data as reality. The way the least technically inclined users use windows being the best way to use windows. This would be much the same a google redesigning the search experience around the way the most inexperienced users use search and removing all the other search search features like - and "" and site specific: or in tech talk removing all the boolean search options and of course eliminating advanced search all together because the majority of users don't use it.

M$ is basically making an advanced decision is annoying power users because the computer says so. Pretty much proof positive of empty headed marketdroids and insurance salespersons taking over the company. Smart person would leave in choice because tens of millions of customers still use the start button but don't use "The Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program" for obvious reasons.

Re:stopped using it?

[d3ac0n]

You have to wonder.

Personally, I spent an inordinate amount of time on new Win7 builds de-pinning everything from the taskbar, bringing back the Quick launch bar, Turning off Libraries and re-enabling the "Pin to Start Menu" feature so that I can have a functional and useful OS. Apparently Microsoft only gets metrics from low-end users who dump everything on the desktop or taskbar, and MS-koolaid drinkers. Power users be damned, apparently.

Re:stopped using it?

[UnknownSoldier]

@Golddess Sadly the grandparent doesn't understand "contextual grouping" (aka spatial sorting). It is an awesome productivity tip -- unfortunately Microsoft doesn't know shit about it so they effectively killed it with Win7. In XP you could drag taskbar icons dynamically left/right with the help of a third party app. i.e. Taskbar++. Like you, I haven't found a good workaround. :-( I want *some* applications to be grouped together, and others I do NOT want grouped together PLUS I want the ability to move both sets left / right where I want them.

@drkstr Here is another example:
i.e. Let's say you have these icons in the task bar
  1) command line
  2) browser
  3) command line
A power use can use the fact that the left command line is in say the home directory, and the right command line is a working directory.
It's an awesome way to visually organize your (sub/mutli) tasks. The unix guys did the same thing with workspaces, but that is overkill for the majority of tasks when you only need 2 or 3 command line / terminal windows open.

How many years did it take for explorer to have a column for directory, sorry, folder sizes?!?! Microsoft doesn't give a crap about advanced / power users and making things easier for _everyone_. I figure it will take MS another 20 years to figure it out.

Re:stopped using it?

[UnknownSoldier]

To clarify the example ...

2) browser

If you moused over this, then it would show the N windows / tabs that you have open.

The taskbar itself would show you a _single_ icon for those applications that you don't want hogging / cluttering up the taskbar.

There is a time and a place where you want multiple instances of the same application to take on a single icon, and times when you want every instance to take up a new icon slot in the taskbar. Give the user _choice_.

Re:stopped using it?

[cavebison]

I support 120+ users. One thing I've noticed during our Windows 7 migration is that our staff do not use the start menu at all.

That's not surprising if your 120+ users are in a controlled corporate environment where they only use a handful of apps for work. Is that the case? If so, your example is the exception not the norm. This is about the most common type of user.

Re:stopped using it?

[Eponymous Coward]

bash is almost as good as powershell, but if free is important (and it is), then it might be better.

Windows 8 Server edition can be configured to run without a GUI, only powershell. I think this is the first version of Windows that didn't force a GUI.

Re:stopped using it?

[MrNiCeGUi]

No, it does not expand. Default behavior in Windows 7 is that a taskbar item has no text, only an icon. So, if you open an app, its icon gets a raised background; multiple instances of the same app have a stacked and raised effect on the background. What you are describing, expanding pinned apps, happens only if you choose the XP behavior for the taskbar.

Again, in Windows 7, the default behavior is that a pinned app icon never moves on the taskbar.

Re:stopped using it?

[MrNiCeGUi]

What do you mean? You have this exact choice in Windows 7: multiple instances represented by a single icon, or every instance a new slot on the taskbar.

To wit: Taskbar - Right click - Taskbar - Taskbar Buttons: Always combine, hide labels (default Windows 7 setting), Combine when taskbar is full (XP behavior), Never combine (Windows 9x behavior).

Re:stopped using it?

[jvismara]

*people had stopped using it*? this is MS slang for *that's how we decided it is going to be from now on* -- you can often see expressions like: "our users asked for" that mean the same thing... -- traditional MS linguistics...

Re:stopped using it?

[Golddess]

But can you tell Windows "always combine Firefox windows, never combine notepad windows"?

Re:stopped using it?

[Torodung]

Double middle click, you mean.

Re:stopped using it?

[rhalstead]

You've met one now. Anything I use often goes to the task bar. Everything else stays with start. If you use it often a single click on the task bar icon and it's running except for that Damn "are you sure you really want to let this program make changes?" prompter. Why would you want to have mouse over tot he start button, then find the application likely by having to click on all programs, then select the application and then double click on that, or move through menus to get to the application. I still use the start button for the less often used applications so I see it still having a place. I'd sure hate to have all those start icons on the desk top.

Re:stopped using it?

[randyleepublic]

Why pin when quick launch is still there? You have to unhide it or something (I forget), but the nice thing is that using quick launch you can "pin" 6 apps in the space of two pinned apps.

Re:stopped using it?

[Stormtrooper42]

Well, I've been using Vista since 2007, and 7 since 2009.
Except I switched to an English version recently.
In my native language (French), it was called "Outil Capture" ("Capture Tool").

The point is: I knew how to find it using "Start Menu" > "All Programs" > "Accessories", but couldn't remember the name of the application.
Therefore, removing the start menu is a bit annoying.

Re:stopped using it?

[SJHillman]

Most power users spend far more time with both hands on the keyboard than they do touching the mouse. Keyboard shortcuts are faster, especially for more complex programs with options buried under multiple menu layers. Increasingly large screens make keyboards faster too as you try to balance a mouse fast enough to move across it quickly with a mouse slow enough not to overshoot your target every time.

Re:stopped using it?

[RulerOf]

By far my favorite feature of Win7. Windows key -> type want I want to run (usually under 4 characters) -> Enter. Very efficient.

That was my favorite feature of Vista. ;)

Re:stopped using it?

[Belial6]

I have an iPhone. Yes. Start up and shut down are unfortuantly still necessary. Besides, we didn't shut the machine down because it HAD to be shut down. We shut it down because there was no good reason to use the electricity when it wasn't in use.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

No, it does not expand.

yes it does, which you are clearly aware of as in the very same post you even point out an instance when it does expand i'll even quote it for you.

What you are describing, expanding pinned apps, happens only if you choose the XP behavior for the taskbar.

which i do. therefore this is an issue for me. and many other people. icons only without text would be less useable for me as when i have multiple instances of the same program open (e.g. multiple spreadsheets) i like to know which one i am clicking on based on the text. i am not alone.

Again, in Windows 7, the default behavior is that a pinned app icon never moves on the taskbar.

awesome, so i can just change all my settings back to something i find far less efficient, and i'll get back some of the benefits of quick launch.

Re:stopped using it?

[psiclops]

or you have some weird setting.

it's not that weird, there are three options for taskbar buttons, 'Always Combine, Hide Labels', 'Combine when taskbar is full', and 'Never combine'
the second two of these options will give the effect i described. many people use these options.

The most I ever get is a minor effect that indicated that there are multiple windows opened

because you have different setting to me. settings that i would not use as they reduce usability for me in other ways.

Re:stopped using it?

[Knuckles]

I mean every damned thing I see nowadays is widescreen, so why put the fricking bar vertical?.

That's exactly the stated reason: all monitors are widescreen, so the expectation is you can more easily spare 50 pixesls of horizontal space for the launcher.

Regarding why there is no option for a horizontal launcher, see the second answer here (to summarize, a horizontal launcher would collided with various design choices in Unity): http://askubuntu.com/questions/33605/can-i-move-the-unity-launcher

Re:stopped using it?

[jeepien]

It's not a focus group. They gathered this information using "telemetry". I.e., their built-in spyware.

Re:stopped using it?

[Geosota]

Microsoft killed the Start button because it was an embarrassment. What other machine is turned-off by pressing Start?

Re:stopped using it?

[robsku]

It is a misinterpretation of the data.

People pin the programs they use the most and in that way there is less start menu items being used total, but for infrequently used programs one usually accesses them via the start menu.

So basically Microsoft is saying that since you use certain programs 90+% of the time you don't need an easy way to access the ones you don't use on a regular basis. That is actually one of my main complaints in regards to using Linux so I think it is funny Microsoft is fucking this up in this way.

Um, how is this a problem with using Linux? I can only assume that you are referring to some specific distro and a specific default desktop environment it offers? In that case it's not really a problem with using Linux, just change to another DE.

Re:stopped using it?

[bbbaldie]

They probably also had "data" proving that the public wanted the Ribbon abortion in Office. God, if I *pay* for it, I should get what I WANT.

Re:stopped using it?

[davewoods]

"Outlook isn't on my desktop, so it must not be installed"

You know, that actually never occurred to me. End users make so much more sense now.
At no point in time did I ever think that they do not know how to use the start menu to find a program that has been installed. I guess I just automatically assumed that if you have windows, you know how to launch a program from the start menu. I never would have thought that the end user did not have that basic knowledge.

That would be like learning how to run, but only when facing North, if you are facing East, South, or West, you have to walk. Which is absurd. Why are people so untrained?!
Maybe I need to study the human psyche more before I continue with this post.

Re:stopped using it?

[Fri13]

So the data was from the stupid people who in first place went and ticked that option without knowing what it does!

Re:stopped using it?

[Endovior]

That's just the default setting, actually. You can totally change it by right-clicking on the start menu > Properties > Start Menu > Customize; and from there increasing the start menu size.

Re:stopped using it?

[wwphx]

I find it funny, this reeks of 'what goes around, comes around,' I remember in the 80's using Borland's SuperKey TSR macro keying program in the same manner to start programs from a Dos menu.

Re:stopped using it?

[sexconker]

Their focus group is tons of Windows users who opt in to usage statistics collection.
While I want the traditional desktop, with start button, and NOT that Metro shit, I'm not going to accuse MS of pulling this shit out of their ass on a whim.

They do insane amounts of usage statistics tracking. The problem is that this results in designing for the middle of the bell curve. Good for MS, good for most people, bad for users who actually care.

Re:stopped using it?

[sexconker]

I hit win+r then open up a command prompt then type in the full path, without tab completion.

Re:stopped using it?

[sexconker]

I don't think they've thought this cunning plan all the way through.

To "pin" something you need to have access to it in the first place. Guess where most of the things you can "pin" are stored? Yup - the start menu.

The only way pinning can work well is if they reinvent the start menu, but disguise it as something else.

They did reinvent it.
It's called Metro.
No, I don't like it either.

Re:stopped using it?

[SJester]

^This. I may pin my most common programs - Search Everything, Firefox, Sticky Notes, Folders - but I don't think an hour goes by without hitting the Start Button. I tried both Developer and Consumer Previews for Windows 8. With 20 years experience in every Windows environment produced, and with a printed guide, a magazine article, and Youtube, I still could not navigate or get work done at all. MS is going to take a huge hit because they listened to the wrong people. Vista sucked because it didn't run, 8 sucks because it's unusable.

Re:stopped using it?

[cyber-vandal]

It makes things that you used to know the location of but rarely used much more difficult to find. Like Fields in Word. They're now called QuickParts. Why? QuickParts means fuck all to anyone but some lunatic in Microsoft. The ribbon in Dynamics CRM 2011 now takes up about a quarter of the screen real estate on the Outlook client which makes it much more cumbersome to use on a laptop screen than CRM 4.

I understand why the ribbon exists on a complex piece of software like Word or Excel (although the implementation is very poor, especially for expert users) but why they feel the need to shoehorn it into every piece of software they put out irrespective of whether it makes sense or not is just nuts.

Microsoft's UI design teams seem to be determined to annoy their customers with every iteration of their software.

Re:stopped using it?

[SimonInOz]

There's an even easier way to turn off a Windows computer.
Push the power button.
It'll shutdown nicely. (Log off, no questions).

What's the problem?

Re:stopped using it?

[dissy]

There's an even easier way to turn off a Windows computer.
Push the power button.
It'll shutdown nicely. (Log off, no questions).

What's the problem?

Since the parent post specifically stated "If there was a button on the taskbar to do that, they'd never use the Start menu at all!", then obviously the problem is the button on the front is not an icon in the taskbar ;P

But seriously, I (and I dare say 'we', as in Slashdot users) likely have no problems with the keyboard shortcuts, or the start menu, or even the power button. In fact if the OS was not Windows, we likely wouldn't even be having a discussion about rebooting or powering down, except to brag about uptime-peen ;}

Re:stopped using it?

[overmod]

Where is Tom Lehrer when we need him? I feel a song coming on...

Re:stopped using it?

[Reziac]

I wind up with enough stuff on QuickLaunch that I deemed it needful to add submenus, which you do by simply adding subdirectories under the QuickLaunch folder. In fact, one of my items in QL is a shortcut to QL so I can add things quickly (drag and drop at the desktop isn't reliable; I've found at least in XP-SP3 it often causes the order of the icons to randomly migrate, which is annoying).

I also put a shortcut to the SendTo folder in QL, since that's another one I frequently change.

Ironically, one of my submenus under QL is called "Hardly Ever Used" ... a handy place for stuff I hardly ever use, but can't remember the name or Start Menu location for otherwise and have grown tired of rooting around after.

Re:stopped using it?

[tapspace]

Some people hate it because they are curmudgeons, but some hate it because it's a resource hog and sluggish to boot (I mean "to boot" as in as well, not like to bootstrap the computer).

I LIKE unity. I really like unity. Unfortunately, it's a big performance cost for the features that matter. Turning off blur and stuff like that helps, but not enough.

Re:stopped using it?

[Phroggy]

The only time I've seen staff use the Start button here is to log off when they're done with the machine. If there was a button on the taskbar to do that, they'd never use the Start menu at all!

Make a shortcut to "shutdown -l", and change the icon (there's a red X that works pretty well, although I believe it's intended to mean delete). Pin the shortcut to your taskbar.

Re:stopped using it?

[Anarchduke]

Don't you know? All you have to do is pull the plug going into the wall.

Re:stopped using it?

[Kippesoep]

Even better? It does a heck of a job interrupting my workflow even better. At least the Start Menu covers only a relatively small part of the screen and I can just type what I want without looking at it. I keep looking at whatever I'm working on. Start screen? Blam! In my face. Highly intrusive. Makes me want to strangle whoever came up with it every single time it pops up.

Re:stopped using it?

[riprjak]

I use the start button about once every 5 minutes. Since my desktop is completely-clean of any icons, the start button is the only method I have to open new programs. Microsoft is probably lying through their teeth about "people don't use it".

Or, perhaps, it is completely true for the subset of win7 users who didn't opt out of the customer experience improvement program?

TFA notes that the telemetry from which this decision was made was from the customer experience improvement program; you *did* read it first, right?

It is possible that the set of users who did not opt out strongly represented users who pin everything they use to the taskbar. Hell, the 19 most used apps of mine are pinned to the taskbar on my windows box and there is still half a screen of air for running apps to appear on. My start menu is regularly used for the search function.

Personally, I am not bitching. Its a change, I'm not certain it is superior in a mouse/keyboard environment but I would not call it inferior to the start menu.

Anyway, to my point. Those of us who opted out (me included) actually voted not to care about influencing interface design decisions. Even if we did not realise this was out vote.

This is ithaca railway stuff, the tyranny of small decisions, we protected our right to privacy by opting out of the system used to gather data about how the UI is used. Therefore our preferences were not able to be counted.

There is a charming americanism (amongst many less so), 'If you don't vote, don't bitch!'. So before you whine about removal of the start button, first check wether or not you bothered to include yourself in the decision.

Of course, this assumes that the 'don't use start menu' group is strongly represented with the improvement program group and the 'do use start menu group' is strongly represented in the opted out group. My theory here being that power users with complex usage needs are more likely to opt out (for all kinds of sound, logical arguements...) and, therefore, not be counted.

Just my $0.02,
err!
jak.

Re:stopped using it?

[Xzevious]

Maybe they are just trying to hide the "useless" app by giving it an equally uesless name?

Dont use it much

[Moheeheeko]

All I use it for is to get to the control panel or my computer, and thats because im OCD when it comes to having no icons on my desktop.

Re:Dont use it much

[Sponge Bath]

...OCD when it comes to having no icons on my desktop.

Optimally Clean Desktop syndrome?

Re:Dont use it much

[Anonymous Coward]

So... no icons on your desktop, and no use of the start button. How do you access your programs?

Re:Dont use it much

[Moheeheeko]

The ones I use most go on the taskbar, the rest through my computer.

Re:Dont use it much

[Maxx169]

It's CDO thank you very much - where all the letters are in the right goddamned order!

Re:Dont use it much

[rrohbeck]

Your screen has a Central Dense Overcast?
That's OK, it's hurricane season.

Re:Dont use it much

[yotto]

I just right click, View, and uncheck Show Desktop Icons.

I just unchecked it now and it gave me a seizure until I checked it again.

Re:Dont use it much

[overmod]

Right order for what?

optimization-compulsion disorder... not CDO
compulsive desktop obsession... not quite right (but part of what we've been discussing?)
compulsive desktop optimization obsession... not CDO ... [insert Dave Van Ronk's sigh at the end of Garden State Stomp]

It's OCD for CDO where ATL are RGO. (Just sayin'... it makes about as much sense...)

all day every day

[jaymz666]

I use it all day every day, on 10-100s of servers and desktops. WTF

Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Anonymous Coward]

I hardly ever use my car's emergency brake; but it had damned well better be there, and I expect it to be in the usual spot, like on the floor next to the shifter or high up on the (older American cars). It doesn't belong on the ceiling.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[jmerlin]

Unless you're driving a train :). Maybe Microsoft wants to turn all cars into trains!

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[mightyhorse]

When did we start referring to the parking brake as an emergency brake?

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[icebrain]

When did we start referring to the parking brake as an emergency brake?

Probably about the same time people stopped using the parking brake when they parked. They prefer to slam the car into "park", and leave the whole weight of the oversized SUV/pickup/APC riding on one little half-engaged pin in their automatic transmission. And then they can pull that pin back out under load when they go to leave.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Penguinisto]

In this case, Microsoft put it in the trunk, under the spare tire.

Good luck with that...

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[xs650]

A better Windows 8/Car analogy would be that the emergency brake is in the glove box. The ceiling would be too obvious.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[J0nne]

Wait, aren't you supposed to use that every time you park your car?

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[IwantToKeepAnon]

Mod parent up, I use my parking brake all day every day (like some do the start button - see the tie in?). Only just not while driving. I think "emergency brake" is a USA thing.

I use the Start button b/c it doesn't require a mouse. WindowsKey->P->MMM->Enter->E == Excel *. Using the start button and a mouse is a pain b/c a itsy bitsy bit of the mouse wondering and you have to start over. The real WTF is using a menu paradigm as an application launcher; but Windows doesn't really have much better to offer. I am really looking forward to being able to just type a few letters of the "app" and pressing enter as an alternative (that comes w/ Win7 right?).

* I renamed all my MS Office programs and took "Microsoft" off so the actual name of the program is the first letter to aid my hotkey addiction.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Interfacer]

Well, I suppose that if you pull the parking brake while driving at speed, it becomes an emergency?

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[marcosdumay]

It's what the damned thing was invented for, to stop your car in cases the braking system malfunctions.

Really?!? On what kind of emergency it would be usefull to lose entire control of the car, but make sure it'll stop in a few seconds?

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[katarn]

My understanding is that it was originally called an emergency brake. My '64 dodge pickup truck actually had a separate brake drum and brake shoes attached between the transition and the drive shaft. This was truly an emergency brake, as it was a redundant system which used a completely separate mechanism to stop the vehicle. No modern manufacture would go to this expense, and they use a mechanical linkages to the car's existing brakes. The linkage is redundant, but the brakes are not. Thus it is sufficient for "parking" but will not help in certain "emergency" failure modes. As an added curiosity, when we were out horsing around in the mud with my truck, my buddies told me that when I applied my emergency brake one wheel would spin backwards. Not sure exactly why this would be other than for the same reason the differential causes one wheel to spin backwards when you turn the wheel of a car which is jacked up (unless it has a locker or posi, of course).

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[jbolden]

When we had automatic transmission and "park" became a transmission setting distinct from neutral.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Missing.Matter]

In this case, Microsoft put it in the trunk, under the spare tire.

Yes, because clicking in the same spot where the start button used to be, or pressing the same key that always accessed the start menu, is exactly the same to putting it in the trunk under a spare tire. Very apt analogy.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Penguinisto]

So Microsoft turned it into an easter egg? I honestly didn't know that clicking empty/unmarked space in the lower-left corner of the screen will bring up a start menu.

PS: If that's the case, UI design just went down the toilet. Yay? :/

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[spauldo]

Somehow I doubt that.

The hand brake was invented so you didn't have to chock your wheels when you parked. You couldn't leave your car in gear when you were crank-starting the engine (well, you could, but it would be stupid).

It also functioned as a second brake system in case of brake failure, but that wasn't its primary purpose. You can tell by the fact that it's meant to lock in place, which is dangerous for a moving vehicle. With the advent of automatic transmissions, some manufacturers started calling it an emergency brake and the name caught on among people who learned to drive around that time.

If you had been born about twenty years earlier, you'd probably call it the parking brake or the hand brake - unless you learned the term from your parents, in which case make that 40 years earlier.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Missing.Matter]

It's just another way to access the start menu.

If you're on a laptop or keyboard made in the last 17 years, there is a button specifically designed to access the start menu. If you buy a new tablet, there will be a windows key specifically on the tablet that access the start menu. If you're using a mouse you have the option to click in the same place you've always clicked.

As far as discoverability, you might have to learn about it before you can use it. But that's no different from invisible UI elements like context menus. Are right click context menus UI disasters because you have to know about them before you can use them? And what about the original start menu? Users didn't know what that did either. They put a label on it and even popped up a tutorial in Win 95 on how to use it and what it did. Today, after everyone is used to it, we're treating it like some kind of pinnacle in UI design.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

My E36 BMW has what you might call an "emergency brake": The inside surface of the rear discs is machined and used as a drum, with shoes which can only actuated by the handbrake lever, and the normal service brake uses an uncomplicated hydraulic disc/caliper arrangement.

It's really not all that uncommon and the result is that it has independent control linkages, and independent friction surfaces. It shares the rotating parts of the wheel/hub assembly and the suspension bits, but if those items are lost for any reason braking on that corner simply isn't going to be happening anyway. (Especially on your '64 Dodge, where loss of one rear wheel results in the inability to brake the other one using the "redundant system" you speak so fondly of.)

What were you going on about, again? Oh, yeah: Nostalgia. No, they don't make 'em like they used to. Sometimes, they make 'em better.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

There's a lot of ways to dump speed in a car. The easiest is just downshifting as appropriate. Turn the AC on for a little increased drag. Use the secondary brake (e-brake, parking brake, whatever-brake) to actually stop after you've already dumped as much speed as you can using any other means you can come up with.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

You can tell by the fact that it's meant to lock in place, which is dangerous for a moving vehicle.

The only thing that keeps the secondary brake locked in place is lack of driver skill. It can be modulated very easily if one is aware of its correct operation.

(Been there, done that. You should try it sometime. It's good to learn new things, especially when it comes to understanding how to most safely stop a vehicle in the face of mechanical failure.)

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[whoever57]

Have you ever driven down a mountain road, or a mountain pass? Imagine a 10 mile stretch of road all down hill, and then imagine your breaks not working. In that situation your E-Brake is your only hope to live

In what circumstance would the "E-Brake" work if the regular brakes do not? I think all parking brakes on modern cars operate using the regular pads on the rear (there may be some exceptions on supercars and the like). If the pads have overheated and won't provide any braking then operating them through the brake handle/lever instead of the pedals won't make any difference. The chance of the hydraulics failing to the point that the brakes cannot be applied is negligible -- if you think the brakes have failed, you are much better off attempting to pump the brake pedal than trying to operate the parking brake.

Take a look at the manual for your car, you will find that the manufacturer thinks that it is fitted with a parking brake and not an emergency brake.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[whoever57]

What were you going on about, again? Oh, yeah: Nostalgia. No, they don't make 'em like they used to. Sometimes, they make 'em better.

Citroen GS, built early '70s. Has a separate set of pads in the front calipers that were only operated by the handbrake lever. On the other hand, on that car, the brakes were power operated using the same hydraulic system that operated the suyspension. Lose pressure in the presssure reserve tank and you lose all braking via the pedal (the suspension would also have stopped operating first, and the car would have dropped to the bump stops.)

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[marcosdumay]

No, not all or nothing. But it also doesn't give any fine control, it increases in quanta, and there are about 3 of them between "completely released" and "completely locked". I never drived a car that was different.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[donaldm]

I hardly ever use my car's emergency brake

I think you mean hand or parking brake and in some cars it can be a push button (see VW Passat). Still it could be used in an emergency but in the majority of cases if you need it to slow your car with it you would probably be a few seconds away from death and praying would be a better option :)

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[medv4380]

The E-Brake is supposed to be a separate system from your hydrolic breaks which is why the hand break requires a lot more effort to pull then just pressing down a peddle. I've had my breaks go out before and the E-Break continued to function. It's a pain to use and isn't intended to be used long term. Modern systems usually have better hydrolic breaks so the odds that you'll be in a situation where the E-Break is needed in an actual emergency is low, but that's what its original purpose is for. As for the manual it's still an E-Break, and if you look at the Idiot lite it usually till has a Bright Bang and a P. The Bang is for Emergency and the P is for Park and the car I drive is less than 4 years old so I doubt much has changed.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[medv4380]

Downshifting only works if you're in a Manual and if you're going down hill that's not going to work very well ether. You can still gain far too much speed even in 1st gear when gravity is what is powering your car. Downshifting helps but not enough when you've hit 80 on a mountain pass and just found out your breaks don't work and their is a 40 mph turn ahead with a nice cliff if you don't make it.
And even tough I drive a Manual now and can downshift just fine. Just how am I supposed to downshift in a SHO Torus when it's an Automatic? My SHO is the car my breaks went out on.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[PaKL]

In Australia we call it what it really is - a handbrake. Does that mean the one on the floor should be called a "foot brake"? Hummm... I seem to recall my father calling it that back in the 1970s. Agh now I feel old.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

Move the gearshift to one of the lower ranges. It will downshift.

People have been downshifting in automatics in the mountains for as long as there has been automatics.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[spauldo]

The only thing that keeps the secondary brake locked in place is lack of driver skill. It can be modulated very easily if one is aware of its correct operation.

Well, let's see here. On my old '64 F250, you'd be right - the hand brake moves freely as long as the handle is turned 90 degrees. Too bad it's difficult to steer a non-power-steering vehicle with one hand while you lean forward and to the right to work the hand brake with the other.

On my '65 VW Kombi, the brake lever was designed to either be on or off. You could modulate it to some degree, but you were fighting it to do it - and you still have the problem of trying to steer a horizontal 24" steering wheel with one hand while leaning over to reach the brake lever.

On my '65 Galaxie and my 2000 Ranger, the hand brake is actually a foot brake, all the way over on the left. On both, you have to lean forward and hold a handle at the same time you work the foot pedal in order to keep it from locking. Both have power steering, but it's not exactly handy in case of emergency.

On my Hondas, my Toyota Sprinter, and (IIRC) my Nissan Bluebird, the brake was a handle in the middle with a push button. This actually could be used, and believe me, I used it a lot when I was young, reckless, and (unintentionally in the way of teenagers everywhere) tearing the crap out of my '82 Honda Accord. Yes, I developed the skill, and could do all kinds of neat tricks on corners and whatnot. You could not perform the same feats safely (relatively speaking) on any of the vehicles I mentioned in earlier paragraphs.

(Been there, done that. You should try it sometime. It's good to learn new things, especially when it comes to understanding how to most safely stop a vehicle in the face of mechanical failure.)

Yes, you should try learning new things, by perhaps driving some cars that don't have the parking brake in the middle. I've performed emergency stops with some, and it's dangerous.

You might also try performing an emergency stop with an air brake system when your secondary tank line bursts. I've done it, and believe me, stopping an 80,000lb vehicle with your air pressure gauge dropping like mad is something you'll never forget.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

Ah, French automobiles. An endless source of amusement.

Good of them to put real(ish) secondary brakes on the front, though: That's where it really makes a difference, if one ever has to use them to slow down and stop.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

Hold the release button/lever/widget as you operate the brake, thus disengaging the ratcheting mechanism that makes it function as a parking brake. They then are able to be modulated just fine, just as cable operated brakes do on all manner of moving machinery (from early automobiles, to industrial machines, to modern bicycles).

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

Yes, you should try learning new things, by perhaps driving some cars that don't have the parking brake in the middle. I've performed emergency stops with some, and it's dangerous.

I prefer to avoid situations that require emergency stops.

That said, I've got my time in on modulating the foot-operated parking brake in a towed vehicle, thus using the cable-operated rear drums to stop two vehicles at once. It ain't so bad.

And my work truck has a foot-operated parking brake. I'll put my health and safety where my mouth is, and practice on it the next time it's convenient.

I've also driven my share of manual transmission cars/trucks which either did not have power steering or (worse) which had inoperative power steering. It sucks trying to steer with one hand and do other stuff with the other, but it's doable. And you'd bet your ass I'd be doing it without complaint if my life depended on it.

You might also try performing an emergency stop with an air brake system when your secondary tank line bursts. I've done it, and believe me, stopping an 80,000lb vehicle with your air pressure gauge dropping like mad is something you'll never forget.

Quoth Wikipedia: An air pressure failure at any point would apply full spring brake pressure immediately. I parse this to mean that you'll get some aspect of brakes eventually whether you want them or not, and that planning accordingly and thinking ahead would be a Good Move. Also helpful is the fact that air brake systems can be proactive in alerting the driver to a leak, since with simple hydraulic brakes one doesn't know about a such failures until one tries to stop. It's entirely possible for an air brake system to be in the throes of death, notice this long before the brakes are needed for anything, and bring the rig to a safe stop at an appropriate...but generally impossible to do this with hydraulic brakes.

On a real truck, you might also have a jake brake, a multitude of gears to work with, and a clutch made for controlled slipping (more heat generated == less forward momentum). Boon!

Back to the point: It's not perfect (nothing is, or this wouldn't even be a discussion). But using the parking brake in an emergency involving complete loss of service brakes is a fuckton more likely to be survivable than the other primary option (prayer), even if it's inconvenient or downright difficult to accomplish. Just like in any other emergency, it's important to know what resources you have and be able to use all of them as necessary.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[spauldo]

You're missing the point of my post.

The pedal brake, dash-mounted hand brake, and floor lever brake I mentioned were all obviously not designed for emergency use. Yes, a skilled driver could use them for such, but they were not designed with this use in mind.

That makes them parking brakes. My original post was refuting someone who claimed that the brakes were invented for emergency use instead of for parking.

As an aside, as far as the air brake thing goes, yes, you can use the spring brakes. No, they won't automatically come on when your secondary air system fails - they're held back by the primary system. Your service brakes (what you get when you press the brake pedal) run off the secondary system.

What this means is that you have seconds until your brake pedal stops working. At 70mph, that's not nearly enough time to come to a complete stop. Fortunately, when it happened to me, I was on an open highway and was able to slow down and then use the jake brake to shift down to a slow enough speed (about 3mph) that the spring brakes could safely be used (they're on or off - there's no middle ground). It took between a quarter and half a mile to stop.

The jake brake doesn't have much braking power - it's meant to help you keep control while going down hills, not replace the service brakes. You can't put the truck into a gear it's not ready to go into (no syncronizer in the transmission), so using your gears to slow down isn't as effective as it would be in a car. It works (the jake brake helps), but it takes a long time. I'm not sure how controlled slippage in the clutch would work in a non-synchronized transmission - I've used the technique in cars and pickups though.

If your primary air system fails, you're just screwed. Your spring brakes engage and only your steering ability will save you from jackknifing and rolling your truck. Fortunately, this is extremely rare, and most drivers go their entire career without having it happen to them. I hope I turn out to be one of them.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[adolf]

Perhaps I did miss your original point. My apologies.

I agree that it is probably not primarily designed for emergency use: If it were, it wouldn't have ratchet stops by default, but only on activation by a lever/knob/whatever.

My main point is that it's still applicable to emergency situations, even if it's not designed for that. Do what you can with what you've got, and understand it before you need it. Case in point: My BMW has a separate drum assembly inside of the rear discs: Whether designed for emergency use or not, it's a mechanically-operated braking system which has no meaningful reliance on the service brakes, and I'm certainly going to be using it if the master cylinder fails suddenly. I'll also be downshifting like a fool (damn the pistons and valves, and fuck the clutch), and doing whatever else I can do to introduce drag.

A dear friend of mine is on my couch right now watching a movie, as he slowly recovers from a truck accident over a year ago where his rig went off of a cliff. He technically died more than half a dozen times, and was bent in half backwards with the engine on top of his crumpled mess-of-person, burning him silly. (He's doing pretty well, his pronounced limp is lessening, and he recently got his CDL reinstated, but may not be able to physically tolerate driving an OTR truck ever again.)

When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter at all if the gear (or the gearbox, or the load, or anything else) survives as long as the occupants and the bystanders do. Grab whatever you can (FFS, drag your bootheel on the ground if that's all you've got left) and keep trying.

Good luck.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[spauldo]

My main point is that it's still applicable to emergency situations, even if it's not designed for that.

Agreed. I've used it myself when I had to; usually in that old pickup, which was a total bitch.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Inda]

Needed for hill-starts in a manual.

I haven't seen one in years, but they used to operate via a stronger metal cable, not the hydrolics.

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[Rich0]

The only thing that keeps the secondary brake locked in place is lack of driver skill.

That, and the fact that the design on my car is push pedal to lock, push even harder past the stop and let go to unlock. That does make me a bit concerned - one of these days I'll have to test it out for emergency braking in a parking lot and figure out just how far you have to push it in to toggle it back to unlocking. No, there is no release lever. It really does seem like it is just a "parking brake."

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[armanox]

For when your brake pedal doesn't respond? I've used it to stop my old Crown Vic when the brake line broke (so main pedal went to floor, e-brake pedal still worked).

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[GodGell]

When did you start referring to the handbrake as a parking brake?

Re:Frequency of use is not so relevant

[GodGell]

The E-Brake is supposed to be a separate system from your hydrolic breaks which is why the hand break requires a lot more effort to pull then just pressing down a peddle

Oh boy. That sure was painful to read.

What the actual fuck!?

[ToiletBomber]

What group of people did they look at to get that impression!? Linux users? They certainly stopped using it... along with Windows for what should be a clearly obvious reason: Microsoft doesn't listen to it's customers.

Re:What the actual fuck!?

[MickyTheIdiot]

Well, actually they are like congressman...

They listen and don't give a rats ass.

Re:What the actual fuck!?

[marcosdumay]

To be fair, the start menu isn't that usefull. It won't let you give any argument to the software, won't let you pipe, use vars or control the flux of execution when using more than one program at a time. In fact, it won't do anything besides launching a single program, with its default settings. And to ad insult to injury, it will even hide both the outputs of it.

I can see why obody likes it. It's nearly useless.

Do you just pin things to task bar?

[oic0]

I sure as heck don't just pin everything to the task bar. That takes up room I need for open applications... Do you guys just pin things to the task bar? I've never seen ANYONE's computer with everything just pinned to the task bar.

Re:Do you just pin things to task bar?

[Lithdren]

Using Windows 7 I pin quite a bit to my task bar, but its all stuff I have open at all times. I also, dont use the start button with any kind of regular frequency, because everything I run is more or less at my fingertips. I dont run 30 programs at once, since my windows machine is little more than a gaming platform at this point. I suspect someone doing work on the machine would need it more often, if that work involved using 20-30 different programs, depending on what needs to get done.

Re:Do you just pin things to task bar?

[Anubis IV]

At work, I have Chrome, Visual Studio, and Pidgin pinned, and that's only because they are open every single minute that I am at work. I have about a half dozen application pinned in my Start Menu, including those three, and I use that way to access them on a near-daily basis, since there are a handful of other apps that I launch frequently, but only have open when there's a need for them.

At home, I use a Mac, but even the Dock on my Mac is relatively sparse, with just the items that I use on a near-daily basis showing up on it. I used to have a lot more in it, but I discovered it was slowing me down when accessing the most-used apps, since they were harder to find, so I started paring back until I got to where I am today. It still has maybe 10-15 items on it, but they're all regularly used, and many of them are open 24/7.

Re:Do you just pin things to task bar?

[jbengt]

I pin things to the taskbar all the time . . . accidentally, when I try to close them from the taskbar. Then I immediately unpin.

Re:phone home?

[ToiletBomber]

If it did that, there's no way in Hell that Microsoft could have come to that conclusion.

Taskbar is Great for Grandma.

[tazan]

If you actually use your machine there's not near enough room to start everything from the taskbar. It's annoying to have to jump through hoops to get quicklaunch back. I have 35 icons in quicklaunch right now.


I don't mind windows 8 too much. I don't run any metro apps and so the only real difference I notice with 8 is the start menu is full screen and I have to hit the windows key to get there. They do need some better management tools for it. I somehow ended up with 30 extra tiles and the only way I could figure out how to get rid of them was to do them 1 at a time.


There is a real problem though if you do accidentally open a metro app. There's no obvious way to close it. I had to google it to find out how. That is completely unintuitive.

Re:Taskbar is Great for Grandma.

[ImprovOmega]

21 Icons in QuickLaunch here (3 rows of 7 each). I actually made a VBScript to hack in a QuickLaunch bar for new Windows 7 installs because I got tired of going through all the steps to enable it, position it how I want, and size it how I want.

But even then I *still* use the start menu for infrequently run programs.

Re:Taskbar is Great for Grandma.

[bondsbw]

the start menu is full screen and I have to hit the windows key to get there

You can still click the bottom-left corner to bring up the Start menu. The button isn't visible, but same the motion still works.

Re:Taskbar is Great for Grandma.

[RogerWilco]

I've never used Win8 and certainly not Metro. My guess would be Ctrl-Atl-Del then Ctrl-C then Ctrl-F4 then Alt-F4 and if none of those would work I would be lost and use the power button on the PC.

Tell me what is the answer and would any of the above work?

Why do users pin?

[CaptainLugnuts]

Users pin apps to the taskbar because the UI for launching apps sucks. Long ago (Win2K) I would make my own folders at the root level in the start menu and group apps in a way that made sense. Win 7 broke my ability to do that without pinning. If Microsoft stopped breaking things that worked well for users they might have more time to 'innovate' actual improvements.

Re:Why do users pin?

[rrohbeck]

This. The start menu in Win7 is borken compared to everything since Windows 3.

Re:Why do users pin?

[DanTheStone]

I pin always-running applications so that, even if I restart them, they'll always be in the same place on my taskbar. Since several of our internal apps have the same icons, I use position to tell them apart.

Re:Why do users pin?

[jandrese]

That is so true. The stupid scrollbar in the start menu is still a horrible idea.

Re:Why do users pin?

[gregmac]

The folders could make sense -- it even appears they attempted that at the start, with "Accessories", "Games", and "Startup". But then presumably due to a default setting of an install tool, or perhaps just adopted convention, companies started using their names for the folders. Instead of "Internet" or "Web Browsers", you get "Mozilla". Instead of "Office and Productivity" you get "Microsoft Office".

The experience on most Linux desktops shows how much better this approach is. You don't need to remember the weird name of your favourite music player -- or worse, what company made it -- you pick "Music" and there it is.

The Vista start menu at least recognized having "Programs" featured so prominently was useless because the structure below was useless, unfortunately they "fixed" that by searching and pinning (which themselves, are not bad ideas) instead of enforcing a more logical structure.

Re:Why do users pin?

[Kocureq]

Same here. The UI to start new apps from start menu is the best I've seen in Windows (hit start key - type 2-3 letters - hit Enter) but still it's easier for me to click the right icon (which is always in the same spot, no matter if started or not) with my mouse. Changing how the start menu looks doesn't change any of this behaviour - keyboard still works.

Re:Why do users pin?

[Jeng]

I only pin so that certain application are in a certain order on the task-bar, otherwise I much preferred the quick launch toolbar to launch favorite programs.

If I could re-arrange the order that programs are in on the task-bar after they are already open I would probably not pin at all.

Re:Why do users pin?

[CannonballHead]

I have found that the "start" button + typing the app name (or start of it) is way faster than traversing any menus... so I can totally see how most users (including me) rarely use the start menu.

Re:Why do users pin?

[loimprevisto]

What if you can't remember the name of what it is that you want to launch? Perhaps a seldom played game or occasionally used utility? I used to like grouping programs by function so I could find them in a menu structure... windows key+name is useful but it is not always the best method.

Re:Why do users pin?

[Life2Death]

Office bar for "office xp" or whatever did it right. They let you put folders that'd pop out so you could group Office programs into a quick little menu on your quick launch bar that popped up with the others. It worked great. I wished they'd just throw all the UI designers into one room and kick their ass if one decided that they'd change something drastically for one generation of microsoft products.

Windows 7 + Office 2007 + Exchange 2007 all have way different interfaces. lets not get into IE8 or things like sql studio or visual studio. some do some things wonderfully right, while others painfully do it wrong.

Re:Why do users pin?

[Waccoon]

What's really amazing is that it took them billions of dollars and countless man-hours to make Windows what it is today, and yet, the things that pisses me off the most is the location of one or two buttons, or one badly designed menu.

Why take a month and a shoestring budget to make a more flexible Explorer.exe and give people just a few extra options (such as built-in PowerToys), when you can spend years and millions working on stupid experimental features that nobody asked for?

Software design in a nutshell.

Remember the fuss Apple made over "Stacks"? That was a blatantly obvious feature that I've been waiting for Microsoft to introduce since forever. I've been doing it on Windows with TrueLauchBar for years. How much effort and money did that feature take to hack up?

Re:Why do users pin?

[RogerWilco]

Exactly. The inability to organize the Start Menu in a sensible way in win7 was the real problem.

Re:Why do users pin?

[cavebison]

Totally agree. In XP I had folders at the root of the start menu, each starting with a unique letter.
All internet-related programs were under "Internet" folder, also had a "Quick" folder.

So to open Firefox, I simply hit Win + I + F. Notepad = Win + Q + N. Calculator = Win + Q + C.
That's 3 keys. Takes under a second. No hitting Enter, no unnecessary typing.
Nothing is more user friendly for me than that.

Can I do that in Win 7? Not without the Classic Start Menu utility. Sorry, app.

Re:Why do users pin?

[cavebison]

MS simply made the Start Menu hard to navigate and (once lots of programs are installed) and hard to customise. If they'd just started with *categories* at the top level, instead of a single, bloated "Programs" list, and then put a "Create Category" button somewhere, people would get the idea.

Default categories (ie. top level start menu folders) would be: "Office", "Internet", "Media", "System" and "Help". I think that's all they had to do. It's *hard* for most people to clean up their Start menu, and unless you're technical, you've no idea you can make your own efficient and neat arrangements. Most people's Programs menu is a screwed up mess after a few months. That's where MS failed to innovate.

Re:Why do users pin?

[CannonballHead]

Problem I have with categories (especially my gnome installation I'm using on RedHat 6.1 right now :) ) - which, incidentally, is under a catch-all "Applications" ... is that I'm never quite sure what category a given application goes. Does Spotify go under Media or Internet? I usually have to poke around a few menus before I find out where gnome puts the shortcut.

Re:Why do users pin?

[cavebison]

Highlighting the menu item seems to work ok, like Win does now when a new program is installed.

It should be in the context menu of each item to "change category", so you can easily move it to another one, or a completely new one. If it's easy to move em around (without the awful UI nightmare of dragging amongst popup menus) people would do it. People tend to like putting things in categories, *if* it's obvious and easy to do.

Accidental Pinning

[bi$hop]

I wonder if they factored accidental pinning into their numbers. I frequently pin windows that I actually intended to close (and it's annoying).

Re:Accidental Pinning

[NettiWelho]

I wonder if they factored accidental pinning into their numbers. I frequently pin windows that I actually intended to close (and it's annoying).

Yes they did, but it gets canceled out because they also factored in the people who accidentally closed when they indended to pin.

pinning [applications] on the taskbar

[cpu6502]

Kinda like the Mac's dock I suppose. Only problem is I have 200+ programs. I can't pin them all to the taskbar; the start menu is still needed. (Also do PEOPLE pin their apps, or was it the annoying install programs doing it automatically? It seems every one of them does it, not me.)

QUOTE: "Sareen also claims that people are taking advantage of keyboard shortcuts to open applications, instead of resorting to the Start menu." ----- That would be fine if my keyboard was not laying on the floor, because I wasn't using it. We still need a mouse-based method to open our programs.

Re:pinning [applications] on the taskbar

[greyblack]

You type with your feet?

Re:pinning [applications] on the taskbar

[DaveV1.0]

How many of those 200+ programs do you actually use?

gun-foot-mouth

[iplayfast]

"What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"

Git rid of it. That's what we will do!

Yes I pin applications that I use all the time, but for those applications that I seldom use, I like to use the start button.

Real reason

[DoofusOfDeath]

The "Start" button was writing checks that Microsoft couldn't cash.

Re:Real reason

[jd2112]

To shut down Windows, first click 'Start'...

We've screwed ourselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone with a hint of savvy probably turned off the reporting to the 'Consumer Experience' team at Microsoft. The ones who didn't are the morons who have 3000 icons on their desktops. We've done this to ourselves.

Re:We've screwed ourselves

[DaveV1.0]

In other words, MS is paying attention to the bulk of their customers. You know, those who are not paranoid.

Re:We've screwed ourselves

[Waccoon]

You say that as if it's our fault Microsoft can't do research properly. Software development shouldn't be a damned soap opera.

Trees for the forrest or whatever....

[Anonymous Coward]

I think MS is struggling to stay relevant. The days of ruling the roost are over - they have been for several years now. Apple has kicked their ass - big time - and Linux is this boring worm that is eating their stalk. And LibreOffice and Openoffice are the fungi on the outside.

You see, tech is extremely volatile and capricious. MS had a technical monopoly for what? A couple of decades - if that? Now they're considered some dog on the stock market - the markets have said that MS is a dog. The Markets! MS is a second rate tech company! - Talk to the hand! Apple is the leader - second hand up you bitch!

They are struggling in the sense that they're turning from tech's leader to tech's old stodgy sividend paying widows and orpahn's stock - well; below that because there are better things for them.

This is the dumbest bullshit I've ever heard.

[MrCrassic]

If they're going to lie about why they've removed the Start menu, at least they could've been creative with their excuse. I have never seen anyone use the pinning feature to the extent discussed here. I have, however, seen the recent applications section in the Start Menu used extremely frequently.

Removing the Start Menu was a really bad decision, and using the big Metro landing page as a substitute is, to me, an extremely poor alternative. It remains to be seen how everyone else will take it, though.

Translation

[Sloppy]

"People were happy with the Apple menu through Mac OS 9 but now that they're using Mac OS X, they prefer to use the dock, and the Apple menu no longer works as an application launcher. So now we're going to have our users use the dock too. Oops, I mean the start menu and the taskbar! Forget what I said about that fruit company's name and the nautical term."

Re:Translation

[jandrese]

The worst part: Apple users don't like to admit that it's a real pain in the ass to launch an app on Mac OSX that is not docked, but the dock has limited space so you can't put everything there. Spotlight works if you can remember the name, but otherwise you're scouring the applications directory (which is usually a terrible mess) looking for that icon.

Re:Translation

[gnasher719]

The worst part: Apple users don't like to admit that it's a real pain in the ass to launch an app on Mac OSX that is not docked, but the dock has limited space so you can't put everything there. Spotlight works if you can remember the name, but otherwise you're scouring the applications directory (which is usually a terrible mess) looking for that icon.

You just put the applications folder into the dock. Click on it, and all the apps are there. Well, that's the old fashioned method. The new one is to click on Launchpad. The folder method has the advantage that you can make a folder, put aliases to all the second-most-useful apps in there, and put that folder into the Dock.

But what you really do is to use Spotlight.

Re:Translation

[the phantom]

Two caveats: (1) I use Mac OS X 10.6, (2) I have not used Windows more than a handful of times since XP. That said, I think that you are largely correct, but that there are some mitigating factors in favor of the "Mac way."

First and foremost, Mac programs tend to come in application bundles. In principal, every Mac program is a single object from the point of view of the average user. Specifically, it is an object with a .app suffix (and even the suffix can be suppressed). This means that the average user's Application/ directory is basically flat: it is a folder containing every program that the user might want to use, with no subfolders to navigate. Contrast to Windows, where you might have to navigate the directory structure several levels deep to get what you want. In short, rarely used programs are (normally) pretty easily accessible.

Additionally, it is fairly easy to create an "Application Launcher" on the dock (and I believe that it is done by default): simply drag the Applications folder to the right (or lower) end of the dock. Finally, if you don't like the flat directory structure, there is nothing preventing the user from creating their own hierarchy.

In short, the Mac app launching process is not perfect, but the need for a dedicated app launcher is somewhat mitigated by a saner directory structure from the start, and there are some simple modifications that can be made to further ease the process.

Re:Translation

[strikethree]

And the Dock is annoying. I have it filled with stuff I might want to use but I still find myself having to open up Finder and navigating through folders to launch a program or utility that I do not use often. What a mess. At least a properly maintained Start Menu (yes, you have to maintain it!) is useful. It alleviates the need to go digging through the contents of my hard drive on a regular basis.

Re:Translation

[Ash-Fox]

First and foremost, Mac programs tend to come in application bundles.

All I have to say to that is - I am glad I don't have to help users find where they drag and dropped their apps (of which they can't even remember the name of) anymore.

Re:Translation

[the phantom]

Oi! I hadn't even thought about that. That said, the situation is still something like "Where the hell did the user drag-and-drop?" vs "Where the hell did the installer put the damn thing, and how many levels deep is it?" And most Mac apps come in a .dmg that contains (1) the app to be drag-and-dropped, and (2) an alias to the Applications/ directory. Still, your point is well-taken.

Re:Translation

[bearded_yak]

All I have to say to that is - I am glad I don't have to help users find where they drag and dropped their apps (of which they can't even remember the name of) anymore.

Let's see, unless you are George, the support call there is:

"Hey, I need to use this application I can't find in my computer. I know I have it in there, but can't find it."
"It's not in the Applications or Utilities folder or on my Desktop...."
"Huh? What's the name of the application so we can do a spotlight search? I dunno. I need it though. No, it's name is not in my Recent Applications list, either"
"What do you mean have I created any documents with it? You say that if I have a document file I created with it, we can find out the name of the application with a Get Info window? Yeah, about that... I didn't create anything with it. But I really know I need it."
"What's that? Since I haven't created anything with it and apparently have never used it, you want me to put the install disc in or point you to where we can download it? I lost that."
"What does it do? You say you're an experienced enough tech you'd probably know what the application name is if I told you a little about it? No, I have no clue what it does."

If you got that call, I'd guess they came to work drunk or stoned (or are reclining at home in said incapacitated state) and can usually be distracted to forget about their imaginary application. Or they're just playing with you. Seriously.

Re:Translation

[Tom]

it's a real pain in the ass to launch an app on Mac OSX that is not docked,

You have never used Launchpad, Quicksilver or Alfred, apparently - the last two being so much genius that they have been copied all over the place, from KDE to Windows.

My OS X desktop is the most convenient place to launch apps that I have ever had, and that includes various windows versions, various Linux desktops and window managers, some BSD and Solaris and mobile environments from Palm to iOS.

And frankly, if you think that the applications directory - which is at least sorted by name of the application and gives you large icons if you want it - is a mess compared to the Start directory - which sorts and subdirectories by the name of the publisher, an idea that would've easily won any and all contests for "worst sorting method possible" - then you have mental problems that most professionals would refuse to come near.

Re:Translation

[RogerWilco]

I never use Spotlight. I've got 24 applications on the Dock, and the Application Folder. I still occasionally use Finder -> Applications as well.

Re:Translation

[Volguus Zildrohar]

But what you really do is to use Spotlight.

What you really REALLY do is use Quicksilver. Spotlight has improved a bit, but it has a nasty habit of re-arranging things at inconvenient times, or changing search results based on a second letter that STILL MATCHES (e.g. I type 'i' and itunes comes up... my fingers hit 't' out of habit before I realise it already found iTunes, so I hit enter... but now it's launching Stuffit Expander for some fucking reason).

Quicksilver learns what you want it open after a few corrections, and has many extra actions that kick Spotlight's ass from here to next week.

Common use

[Todd Knarr]

Well, duh. I pin the (relatively) small selection of programs I use regularly. I pin the most common couple to the taskbar, because space there is really limited. The majority of the ones I pin get pinned to the more spacious start menu, or get put as icons on the desktop. The start menu itself, the full one, is for the programs that're installed but that I don't use constantly. I want them accessible because I do use them, just not every day. Take away the start menu and now I have to find somewhere to hold the icons for the hundred-plus programs I need access to that I'm not using every day (or even every month for that matter). So, Microsoft, if you're going to remove the start menu, what are you replacing it with that serves the same purpose? And if you aren't, why should I bother upgrading to something that makes life harder for me until I have software I have to use that absolutely won't run on what I've got working now?

i use the start button constantly

[james_van]

but rarely ever to browse through the "folder structure" in there. i type the name of what i want and hit enter. 9 times out of 10 its faster than clicking through the folders. for programs i use regularly i have object dock (an identical dock on each screen) as a quicklaunch. i never liked the way things looked pinned to the taskbar and the windows quicklaunch bar just seemed ugly to me. any suggestions on something that i can replace the start menu search with so that when im forced (kicking and screaming, clutching 7 for dear life) into using 8 ill be able to keep my workflow the same? or maybe ill just use a shell replacement..... any suggestions there?

Re:i use the start button constantly

[jader3rd]

If you switch to hitting the Win key on the keyboard, or can wait a moment after moving the mouse to the bottom left hand corner, your workflow is the same in Win 8.

Ok fine... but

[drkstr1]

What's with this new design paradigm to make everything hidden and unintuitive? If you wanted to redesign the start menu that's fine, but couldn't you have at least left the button that opens it? Personally, I'm a power user, so it's not that big of a deal for me to use the hot key, but that doesn't change the fact that a UI design that requires prior knowledge to use it (IE. use the windows key or mouse to the hidden area) is BAD design. There is another hidden area for the "options menu" to get to your shutdown and other useful functionality. And the login screen? Mother of god! No normal person would be able to use this crap without prior coaching, or quite a bit of fumbling around at first trying to "hack" the UI. In my opinion, that is the worst possible offense in UI design. Go back to the drawing board and try again Microsoft.

Turns signals 'never' used....

[BenJeremy]

...by my focus group, those drivers I observe leaving parking lots or changing lanes.

Let's get rid of them for ALL drivers!

Microsoft R&D has gone full retard. Seldom-used feature does not equate to NEVER used feature, nor does it equate to NOT NEEDED feature.

Re:Turns signals 'never' used....

[BenJeremy]

I feel I should add to this with something more substantive - Windows 7 and Vista "removed" the QukcStart bar; it still exists, but you have to use some magic incantations to get it back. I use that for 80% of my "most used apps" - 20% of my most used apps are pinned. The remainder are easily accessible through my Start Menu, organized into program groups. Of COURSE I rarely use my Start Menu, but the fact remains that I DO USE IT.

Likewise, I don't keep all of my summer and winter clothes scattered across my bed year-round... I put non-seasonal clothes away, and keep most of seasonal clothes in my dresser, and maybe hang a few ready-to-use things out.

Metro is all about forcing you to have everything up, and being able to find nothing else without using keyboard commands - a VERY BAD PRACTICE for a UI, yet, judging by the Microsoft employees trying to inject the "use a simple keyboard shortcut" answer into every discussion from here to Fark, they seem to have all been hit (repeatedly) on the head with a blunt object when it comes to proper UI design.

WTF?

Re:Turns signals 'never' used....

[steelfood]

I thought they learned this lesson once with Office. Everybody only uses 20% of the functionality that an Office app (Word, Excel, etc.) offers. But everybody uses a different 20%.

Re:Turns signals 'never' used....

[BenJeremy]

Quick Launch, yes, it might be available still on Vista, but it was removed in Windows 7 and still not back for WinMetro. In order to get it back, you must "create new toolbar" and enter in a specific location path. It is no longer easily accessible via the taskbar's context menu, as it is in XP (Vista still has it? Not sure, as I only have one Vista machine here, my company PC - and once you create it, it does show up)

Removing it did nothing to "improve" my user experience, and in fact, it had a negative impact - forcing me to look up that location to recreate the functionality. Removing the Start Button has an even bigger impact, unless I can get it back with the same features Win7's has (vistart works alright, but is a bit of a throwback to XP in features)

Microsoft, for almost three decades has performed an enormous amount of R&D in user interfaces, and everything they've discovered has been thrown out to bolt a tablet interface into a desktop OS. That is what is wrong here, and Microsoft employees have been out in droves to counter the criticisms of it. All of this misguided effort in order to bring users into a new Walled Garden (Metro Apps) and leverage this across multiple form factors. User Interfaces do not work well across different form factors!!! I don't design a game the same for a tablet as I do for the desktop or a console. There can be some overlap, sometimes the same thing works for a phone app vs a tablet app.... or a console game vs a PC game, but there are often tradeoffs that can hurt the app on every platform. Microsoft seems to have forgotten this simple truth.

Getting rid of the Quick Launch toolbar was a step off a slippery slope that Microsoft seems to be plunging down with great abandon, all the while telling us it was a perfectly legitimate thing to do.

First they came for my Quick Launch Bar, and I said nothing, because I could reclaim it.... then they took away my Start Button, but I found vistart, a reasonable facsimile.... when they came for my Windowed, open source free apps, I was unable to finally speak out with my Skype client, because I neglected to pin it to my Metro start screen!

Re:Turns signals 'never' used....

[Torodung]

Too true. I can still use SHFT+del for cut, SHFT+ins for paste, and CTRL+ins for copy. That's from, like, Windows 1.0 and it's still with us in Win 7. IIRC, CTRL+X, C, V was added in Windows 3.1, and yet the old keys are still there. There is no reason for Microsoft to not make the Metro Start Screen 100% optional, give desktop users a way to bypass it straight to a Vista/7 style desktop (automatically), and leave it up to users what they want to use. It should also be possible to give users a choice about the function of the "start" key, and not have it disrupt everything they are doing by filling the entire screen with blocks. Like "requiring" IE as part of explorer in Windows 98, this is all about marketing strategy, not usability. It only makes sense on a touch screen device, yet for marketing everyone else is being forced into a consistent "look and feel" on devices on which it makes no sense.

As with the ribbon, it seems like a patented "look and feel" is more important to Microsoft than user choice these days. That "look and feel" involves oversize controls that Microsoft can use as ad space (a huge billboard) to promote their preferred "features."

To Tee Up Market for Windows 9

[retroworks]

They are ingenious. I'm convinced they put the Windows Office Talking Paperclip and the Windows XP Search Puppy to give us a motivation to upgrade away from them.

I use the start menu every goddamned day.

[Rinikusu]

I pin my "important" apps to the bar, sure. But I've got hundreds of little apps that I may or may not use with regularity, other than regularly using at least one of them which I can't predict depending on my daily "tasks".

Limited sample

[IronOxen]

I have never had anything to do with surveys or statistical analysis but it seems to me that the data they gathered is invalid because they only got the telemetry from people who opted in to the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program. I would guess a very large percentage of those users didn't have a clue that they were opting in. Assuming there is no correlation between willingness to opt in and the computer literacy of the user, the sample group looks to me like it is skewed towards those users who are less computer savvy. If there is a correlation between computer literacy and the willingness to opt in ( which would be my guess ) then the sample group would be even more skewed. My guess is that the more literate you are and the more history you know about a company like Microsoft, the less likely you would be to share anything you don't have to with them. Wouldn't you need a representative cross section of users to make the claim that the start button isn't being used?

Weak article

[Anonymous Coward]

TFA gives hints about the development process, but goes little into the removal of Start. Understandably anything that can be in the Start Menu can be directly dumped onto the taskbar, such as the "Start Menu folder," like drawers from the CDE days or the icon folders from the Windows 3.1 days. Security wise, some security apps disable the Start Menu altogether, creating icons for the worker's applications on the desktop or putting them into the taskbar.
 
Doesn't explain why the new Start always consumes the entire screen; it's not like Gnome3, Ubuntu Unity, OS X Stacks & OS X Dashboard is that hard to copy.

Telemetry

[WaffleMonster]

Hey Microsoft when nobody buys Windows 8 and your market share is erroded by penguins and fruits... will there be anyone left to care about your telemetry?

List of Features

[sociocapitalist]

They removed it because it isn't actually necessary and the removal of it can be called an added feature as people try and figure out why in the world they would bother upgrading to yet another version of Windows.

stopped what???

[roc97007]

Ok, so I punched the "start" button, clicked on Firefox, brought up Slashdot, and find that according to a focus group, I no longer use the "start" button. But I.... I just... (looking over in the left corner) I ... just now... and about a thousand times yesterday... WTF?

Re:stopped what???

[Ash-Fox]

I guess you forgot to use Metro.

Re:stopped what???

[4pins]

Oh my goodness yes, please MOD THE PARENT FUNNY!!!

wrong environment??

[roc97007]

Is it possible that the focus group thought they were talking about phones? Where the "start" button is absolutely *not* appropriate? (As any user of Windows Mobile knows to their absolute frustration.) Or... maybe they thought that the testers were talking about touch interfaces in general, where again, "start" is not appropriate?

And nobody considered that in a classic KVM interface, it or something like it is pretty much mandatory?

Re:wrong environment??

[Jerry Atrick]

...because typing in the 1st few letters of an app name really makes sense on a touchscreen!

Not quite understanding the logic...

[yotto]

"What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"

Kill it!

Makes perfect sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Who needs the Start button. To start e.g. Excel 2007, I just do the following:

Windows key + R
Enter "cmd" and click "OK"
cd c:\
dir
cd "Program Files"
dir | more
cd "Microsoft Office"
dir
cd "Office12"
dir *.exe | more
excel.exe
exit

Why not get rid of the taskbar as well. Windows 8 is going to be so much fun.

Re:phone home?

[Jeng]

If you allow anonymous data collection, or whatever it's called that is how they are getting the statistics.

The problem is their thought process.

They think, oh people use these items they pinned to their task-bar 90+% of the time so therefor they do not need an easy way to access the programs they use less frequently.

So it's not that Microsoft had bad data, they just came to a very bad conclusion when they looked at it.

I use the Start Button all the time

[Cro Magnon]

Among other things, I use it when I shutdown at the end of the day.

Re:I use the Start Button all the time

[rahvin112]

Don't worry, they got rid of that. Seriously.

There is no button or way to shutdown that I could find. The only way I could figure out how to do it in Win8 was to 3 finger salute, logout and then there was a shutdown button on the login screen. I pity novice users on this steaming pile. You can open the start screen, but if you can't find what you want out of the myriad huge buttons that occupy your screen good luck figuring out how to close it. I can't tell you how absolutely unintuitive I found the entire Win8 experience. I expect win8 to be just a shade under 50% as popular as vista was.

Why pinning sucks

[gumpish]

With quicklaunch items the icons stay in the same position until you make a change. This allows you to quickly find the icon since you know exactly where it will be.

When something is pinned to the taskbar, if it isn't the first icon and you have a variable number of intervening programs running, each of which has a variable number of windows open, then the icon could be anywhere and you have to look for it.

Then again, this analysis is premised on having the taskbar configured to show a button for each window that's open... because I'm not an asshole that has 50 windows open at a time AND I like being able to access a particular window without having a magical mystery list pop up...

Ugh... I'm just glad I know enough about computers to use an operating system where I have real meaningful choices when it comes to my desktop environment.

Grandma using Windows 8 for the first time

Re:Why pinning sucks

[hvdh]

MS made it way too hard to reconfigure Win7 to have the same quicklaunch bar like in XP. You need the recipe how to do it and around 30 clicks. No wonder user behavior changed compared to XP.

I was really missing the XP-like quicklaunch it in Win7, mainly because "pinned icons" (?) only work to open the first window:
Click "Firefox" to open one window. Fine. Click again for a second window? Doesn't work.

Only because of this article, google found me how to get the XP behavior back.

Re:Why pinning sucks

[strikethree]

When something is pinned to the taskbar, if it isn't the first icon and you have a variable number of intervening programs running, each of which has a variable number of windows open, then the icon could be anywhere and you have to look for it.

Huh? Admittedly, I am using Server 2008 as a desktop OS currently, but it is essentially Windows 7... and the things I have pinned do NOT move around. Perhaps I made some adjustment somewhere and am not aware that I had done so?

Re:Why pinning sucks

[Ash-Fox]

Click "Firefox" to open one window. Fine. Click again for a second window? Doesn't work.

*middle clicks the already started Firefox pinned item*
*Firefox opens new window*
Works for me?

Re:Why pinning sucks

[swilver]

Really?

1) Unlock taskbar
2) Rightclick taskbar, select toolbars/links
3) Rightclick on the new toolbar, disable "title" and "text"
4) Drag where you want it
5) Add links

Why not toolbar? was Re:Why do users pin?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Why dont you create a folder in the desk top, call it MyApps. Create sub folders in MyApps grouped in a manner most suitable for you you. Like "Editors" "Browsers" "CmdTools" "Dev" "Test" etc. Create short cuts in each of these sub folders the way you want it. Make this MyApp folder a new tool bar.

Now from the task bar you have your own customized menu tree to launch the apps. It is the closest thing to "Program Manager" of Windows 3.2. It is better because you can auto hide the task bar and make it always on top. Thus even when the icons on the desk top are all covered by launched windows, you can quickly launch yet another instance of cygwin terminal window.

Re:Why not toolbar? was Re:Why do users pin?

[John Bokma]

Easier: turn on the Quick Launch toolbar: A better start menu with Quick Launch toolbar. No need for a folder on the Desktop (hate that clutter) or another task bar. Quick Launch is already there, just turn it on ;-).

Re:Why not toolbar? was Re:Why do users pin?

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

The link you said says you can navigate down the floders in the quick launch toolbar to find the app to launch. In my WinXP it just launches the file explorer on the top folder in quick launch bar. But if I make a folder in desktop to be a toolbar, it lets me navigate down the folders to find the app to launch.

I figured out what is going on. If there are enough space to show all the icons in the quick launch bar or the my tool bar, it only shows a folder and it launches file explorer on it when clicked. If the tool bar runs out of space and shows the tiny two greater than signs, that opens a navigable cascading menu. I like my task bar on the right edge of the screen, not bottom.

Great job guys!!

[firewrought]

SOMEBODY at Microsoft must be signing up their friends for user interface testing and getting them to leave bad feedback. I don't know who, but they're doing a GREAT job sabotaging Microsoft's flagship products... first UAC, then the Office ribbon, then Windows Search, then Bing, then rearranging control panels in each new version of Windows, and now removing the start button! How can they do it all with a straight face?

Microsoft Interviewer: "Please launch notepad."

Rouge Tester: "Sure! I'll just double-click this README.txt on the desktop."

MI: "Um.. okay, can you create a new document in notepad?"

RT: "Aww... I just edit the README everytime... see, it's got all my notes and everything."

MI: ...

RT: "I use to use the Start menu, but now it gives me vertigo."

MI: "Vertigo?"

RT: "Yeah -- I was puking buckets everytime I opened it."

MI: ...

RT: "Buckets. Totally."

Human factors "fail" in progress.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

I happened to monitor the debate on the Microsoft forums on the start button and the sentiment among users was *overwhelmingly* "Don't TAKE MY START BUTTON AWAY!" This is just another example of some self-absorbed Microsoft "genius" with a brainwave that there's a "better" way to do something. The start button was just too obvious and simple. Well, listen up, genius, whoever you are. YOU ARE NOT STEVE JOBS AND NEVER WILL BE. You *do not* know better.

FAIL, FAIL, HUMAN FACTORS FAIL....

User pin apps launched by start button!

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

People launched apps from start button once, and once it is launched they pin it to the task bar. The telemetry data captured launches from start button 1, launches from pinned task bar item N. So start button lost the battle N to 1. So it should be removed.

I think it is a great idea and we should use it in other situations too. Like the dinner table. The pasta spoon was used 4 times to serve pasta from the bowl to your plate. But the dinner fork was dipped into the plate 104 times. Pasta lost it 26 to 1. Let us eliminate pasta spoon from the table to improve efficiency.

The function int main(int argc, char **argv) was called just once. But the function int getc() was called 2.5 billion times. So to improve efficiency let us remove the main() program.

Re:User pin apps launched by start button!

[Voyager529]

I, for one, would like to 100000000000% echo this.

Sure, people used the start menu LESS after tweaking stuff for easier access. That doesn't mean that they didn't use it the first time they launched it.

Re:User pin apps launched by start button!

[strikethree]

You are modded as funny but what you are saying is actually insightful. I ran out of mod points yesterday. Sorry.

Re:User pin apps launched by start button!

[melikamp]

Only 1 /. comment out of about 350 is both funny and insightful. In order to improve customer satisfaction and thread efficiency, /. 3.0 will auto-moderate these down to -1.

Re:User pin apps launched by start button!

[Missing.Matter]

People launched apps from start button once, and once it is launched they pin it to the task bar.

This is kind of the point, but you don't seem to get it. The start menu is like a swiss army knife. It has 100 different functions, and does none of them well. It's kind of a search area, kind of contains all your programs but they're unorganized, it's another place to pin programs but not too many, it's a place to launch explorer windows but only specific ones and not too many, and it's a place to manage sessions. And you're right, the data is showing people just access it to find items to pin. So what good is it doing all those things?

In terms of your food analogy, it's like using a large spork to serve the pasta. Microsoft is replacing it with a fork and a spoon, each which do their job better separately. You can still access all your apps. You can still pin them from the start screen, that hasn't changed. But there's a separate search window that is more useful. Ways to launch explorer are redundant in the start screen, but there are new ways to launch handy items by right clicking in the lower left corner.

In terms of your programming analogy, it's the difference between spaghetti code all piled into a main function, and separating it out into different functions and classes.

Re:User pin apps launched by start button!

[gl4ss]

microsoft is giving you an extra table to serve the pasta with.

Hey, Microsoft! Listen up!

[Peter Simpson]

Yes, I pin most of my commonly used apps to the quick launch bar. BUT -- those are not the only apps I use. Only the ones I use most frequently go on the quick launch bar. The rest, and there are many of them, need to be accessed somehow, and the START button is a very convenient way to get to them.

You know what would be great? If you designed your UI so that we had a CHOICE about whether to adopt your latest "great idea", or just keep using the system we've grown used to. You know...the way we're most productive?

Re:I did

[MrNiceguy_KS]

Agreed. I've been using Launchy long before I ever started using Win7. Years ago, I would occasionally try to organize my Start menu, organizing things into coherent categories, rather than the God-awful way that programs organize themselves. Once I found Launchy, I let the Start Menu do whatever it wants - I didn't care anymore. And once I moved to Win7 with the searchable launcher, I tried it for awhile, then installed Launchy.

I blame program developers for allowing the Start Menu to become such a mess. Why create a folder named after the software developer? If I want to play Grand Theft Auto 4, I don't want to browse to "Rockstar Games" first. Ideally, they would create a single icon under "Games". Why put a shortcut to the uninstaller on the Start Menu? If I want to uninstall your program, I'll go to Add/Remove Programs. I really don't need a shortcut to your website on my Start Menu. If I want to look at your website, I'll freakin' Google it.

Start button usage

[wolfguru]

90% of what I do often is on the taskbar. 90% of what I do is on the start menu, as there is simply not room nor reason to pin everything I use once a week, or even perhaps once a day for 5 minutes, to the taskbar. Dropping the start menu simply make Windows 8's desktop harder to use and forces cluttering the screen with tiles, as badly as the people who covered their screens with shortcuts anc could not find anything that wasn't on their desktop for them to click. It is a poor and very limiting design, and will significantly slow the adoption of Windows 8 in complex business environments where there are multiple applications that simply don't fit, or belong, on the taskbar. Big indicator of the difficulty inherent in managing by numbers vs common sense.

Why Microsoft really killed the Start Button

[neminem]

The first rule of looking like you're actually doing something still, rather than just treading water badly until you drown: "If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is".

My copy of Windows 7 has a -great- UI... cause I ripped out most of the native UI, and replaced it all with various 3rd party applications that don't suck as badly...

Welcome to OS X ca. 2001

[stewbacca]

"When we evolved the taskbar we saw awesome adoption of pinning [applications] on the taskbar.

Windows 7 is the first MS OS I like for this exact reason. Too bad it took 10 years to copy OS X.

Re:Welcome to OS X ca. 2001

[gl4ss]

The difference, though, is that on the Mac the "Application" folder is organized well enough that users could actually navigate there and look for the application you want.

The organization of the "Program Files" folder on Windows make this cumbersome at best.

organized? wtf? it's basically one flat directory. the difference is that nobody has many apps since mac has poor number of apps.

Re:Welcome to OS X ca. 2001

[Waccoon]

Quick Launch, introduced in 1998... and I think it was ripped off from Linux or something.

Back in my MacOS days at college, I always wondered when the Mac would get a window manager that didn't suck. The dock was just Apple's way of finally getting the taskbar they were too proud to rip off.

Telemetry show turn signal stalk is used less

[Green Salad]

Dear Valued Customer,
        On-Star telemetry shows you rarely use your turn signals when changing lanes and we're striving to "do something about it." We've also noticed you use your audio system menu controls frequently. Because of the audio controls' popularity in our usage statistics from participating customers, future models will eliminate the turn signal stalk in favor of a user-configurable option, allowing you to scroll a tiny screen and search through audio options while making lane changes. Note that you can now change the audio feedback from the traditional clicking relay sound of a turn signal to one of several pre-loaded "ringtones" just like your cell phone. Furthermore, for an additional fee, Microsoft now offers a "plus" package with many more audio themes for your turn-signal.

Thank you for participating in our telemetry feedback programs as we strive to constantly improve our products!

Re:Telemetry show turn signal stalk is used less

[Anne Thwacks]

Oh, so that explains it!

Never really used it until 7

[eriks]

I've never really used the start button, except to shut down (go figure), that is until windows 7, which, as others have said, has a (very) useful search.

So as long as they keep a quickly accessible search/run entry box and a way to sleep, poweroff or reboot easily I couldn't care less what they do with the start button. I always used the quick launch bar, and now pinning for web browser(s), filesystem browser(s), email, putty, cmd, text editor(s), office apps and a few other apps. Everything else is on the desktop. I sort of preferred the quick launch bar for it's simplicity, but I'm used to pinning now, so it's fine. I see others have similar feelings about pinning.

Though I guess I'm hardly the typical windows user, but apparently they don't use the start button either.

Try using Windows 8 in a Virtual Machine.

[Eldragon]

Try using Windows 8 in a Virtual Machine. Moving the mouse into the lower left corner is impossible when doing so moves the mouse out of the vm window. Added bonus: My keyboard lacks a Windows Button.

Lets just say it's more than a minor annoyance.

Re:Try using Windows 8 in a Virtual Machine.

[ninjackn]

Unless they decided to change it in Windows 8 from the previous iterations, Ctrl+Esc brings up the start menu.

Re:Try using Windows 8 in a Virtual Machine.

[keith_nt4]

Two things about that:
1. Try RDP'ing (remote desktop) into the VM and make it full screen
2. apparently Win 8 prefers something greater than 800x600. That's what my Win 8 VM defaulted to apparently and I never tried making it larger.

Never did solve the no start button thing.

Re:Try using Windows 8 in a Virtual Machine.

[Phroggy]

Does Ctrl-Esc work, in lieu of a Windows key?

Bastards

[stevegee58]

First they took away the Reset button my my PC. Now this. When will it every end?

Windows 3.1

[pkinetics]

History repeats itself, and we will return to the UI of Windows 3.1

Re:Windows 3.1

[4pins]

Yeah, the thing is the shells that have taken this form (since Windows 3.11) over the years usually were administer by someone else and presented you with the few options you were supposed to use.

At Ease

Novell Application Launcher

Tiotha

AOL Kids

iOS

Microsoft is probably planning to distribute Metro apps exclusively through their online store. So they are adopting the user interface used when controlling what the user may run. They do this for the money, let's not pretend there is any other reason.

I really hope apple keeps this option!

80 - 20

[jellomizer]

Most people will pin 20% of the application they use 80% of the time.

Then we have the other 80% of the application we need 20% of the time. Yes I am only using the start bar 20% of the time... However it is because I still need to access the other 80% of my apps. Windows 8 doesn't allow drill down, which kinda stinks, I was thinking of Coding my own Start Bar for Desktop mode.

Re:fucking retarded

[DaveV1.0]

Have you actually used Windows 8?

How about completely overhauling the desktop?

[GodfatherofSoul]

Instead of making it a canvas for your cute puppy pics, it should be a giant frequency display. If 95% of my time is spend on Visual Studio or the browser, shouldn't there be proportionally-sized startup icons for those apps. Shouldn't utility information like time, date, calendar, and performance metrics be front-and-center?

Instead, when I start up my machine I'm staring at a bunch of tiny icons and a background I see for split seconds at a time since I'm going to be hopping straight into an app anyway.

This isn't a pin vs Start question

[C_Kode]

I pin my most used applications to the taskbar, but I use the start menu all the time. I can't open multiple Windows of the same app (like cmd, windows explorer, etc) using a pinned icon.

The taskbar and a menu button are very important IMO. (and a major reason Gnome 3 sucks so badly)

Re:This isn't a pin vs Start question

[calgar99]

Uh, yes you can. Middle click on the taskbar item and a new window opens.

Soon to be most Googled subject

[hillbluffer]

"Windows 8" re-enable start menu

Re:Soon to be most Googled subject

[morian97]

It will be available as an app from MS for $1/month. No word yet from MS if it is going to be functional.

There isn't much of a controversy...

[morian97]

... Metro just simply sucks. My cellphone doesn't play Crysis and I can't dock it either - I still need a PC with a usable desktop!

Maybe I missed something...

[Life2Death]

But when we put the newest beta on a bunch of tablets we got for testing here, no one could figure out how to open the "Start Screen" without using a stylus. We googled and figured out how to "alt+tab" with a swipe but who is going to be able to figure out how to use Win8 without reading a book first?

FYI I work in IT and we used Win8 on the desktop a while. The start button would make this a no-brainer. I think their target group must be on bath salts or something.

Is there a STOP button

[rossdee]

Without the start button, how TF do you shutdown - restart

Hey, I am still using XP and don't want to buy a new computer yet.

Re:Is there a STOP button

[Tony Isaac]

Maybe if they add a STOP button, we'll be able to use that to start things!

Re:Is there a STOP button

[Billly Gates]

Well if you do not want Windows 8 I suggest your change your buying plans and get something with Windows 7 while you still can.

Actually...

[Chewbacon]

I use it, but not as often as I pin stuff. I usually search for apps because the scrolling programs list is more difficult than the one that exploded across the screen. But I typically use just a few apps which are pinned (or the equivalent): Windows Explorer, Firefox, Putty, Winamp, Notepad++. How often do I use it? Maybe once a day. I can see where Microsoft is coming from. In the case of my personal use, they're expanding what I use the most, but I still like what is going on now: the taskbar and Flip3D. But then, I'm also a user that likes functionality and I'd like to think functional-lovers are a dying breed. Many of the people out there think the iPhone is awesome, so every thing should be like the springboard and needs to be flashy at the sacrifice of functionality.

Could work better...

[Junta]

In Windows 8, if I search for 'update', it prominently says "no results". Intuitively I think "oh it must not be there" not "oh I should look over at the right column and see there is a category that has more than '0' to find the results.

IIRC, Win7 will display all the results rather than forcing you to switch categories.

Re:Could work better...

[drkstr1]

In Windows 8, if I search for 'update', it prominently says "no results". Intuitively I think "oh it must not be there" not "oh I should look over at the right column and see there is a category that has more than '0' to find the results.

IIRC, Win7 will display all the results rather than forcing you to switch categories.

EXACTLY! (sorry for the shouting)

metro (adj)

The the trait or quality of hidden useful functionality.

Example: That new login screen is so metro!

Re:Could work better...

[Billly Gates]

Also it obstructs the view of the desktop and mimizes it each time you hit the Windows key to do instant search. It hides it to the user and defeats its purpose. I was very close to leaving Vista behind for XP on my el cheapo laptop 4 years ago. Instant search kept me using it despite it being slow and klunky because I had like 20 files for accounting and finance for college and with the practice tests I lost track of what was what. Just windows key Landmo Co sales fore... bingo etc!

Re:Could work better...

[UnknownSoldier]

What? You didn't get the memo? Win8 is so metrosexual :-) /me ducks

Re:Could work better...

[hardeep1singh]

my pet peeve with Win 8 start menu. Why can't they just show everything?

Re:Could work better...

[Junta]

In this case "Update" is a "Settings" and the search only shows results for "Apps" until you click "Settings" to see the results in there.

It's Time for a Car Analogy!

[captainClassLoader]

Removing the Start Button because it's rarely used is like removing the jack from your car because it's rarely used. Frequency of use is a different quality than necessity.

I wondered about that...

[Junta]

When I played with Win8 I thought it was a tad awkward on the desktop, and heard cries of 'but it's designed for tablet and would be an *awesome* tablet interface. I was left scratching my head, perfectly aware of all the tiny hotcorners and hidden UI features. Hotcorners are very much a mouse-type feature that is awkward for touch. And the 'right click' to bring up metro menus (which are somewhat similar to the lower right hotcorner but not really) I didn't see mapping to a tablet either... I *assumed* that at least the windows key would exist on a tablet, but the rest.....

Faulty data

[JDG1980]

The problem is that anyone with half a clue turns off the privacy-invading telemetry ("Customer Improvement Program") in Windows. So the metrics Microsoft collects come exclusively from the users without a clue.

Besides, how many people are still on XP? I'd bet start button usage is higher there. I don't care what Microsoft wants to make the default settings, but I don't understand why they feel they must not give us a choice. Heck, why not design the whole Explorer GUI with XML (sort of like Firefox does for its user interface) and let users customize it however we want? Also let us set a registry key to use unsigned themes instead of hacking a DLL.

To the extent that home power users still use x86 desktops, it's because they are an open, flexible, and customizable platform (as opposed to ultra-locked-down, consumption oriented ARM devices). Microsoft needs to recognize that fact and go with it. As for business users, who are even more important to MS's bottom line, most businesses do not want to have to re-train people for no good reason.

Who talks like this?

[ghostdoc]

'When we evolved the taskbar we saw awesome adoption of pinning [applications] on the taskbar,' said Sareen. 'We are seeing people pin like crazy. And so we saw the Start menu usage dramatically dropping, and that gave us an option. We're saying "look, Start menu usage is dropping, what can we do about it? What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"'"

Is it just me that finds this kind of use of language intensely, massively, irritating?
I've seen a few Microsoft interviews where they talk like this. Is it just a MS corporate thing, or is this the new American BusinessSpeak?

We're saying 'look, we've heard how you're using the language, and we've listened to you, and we'd really, really like you to go ahead and use this super-amazing language we all share in a way that doesn't empower and inspire these very valued conversation partners to acts of what we call 'homicidal rage'.

There idea works for tablets / phones

[Joe_Dragon]

There idea works for tablets / phones

But on a desktop where you have bigger screens and more then once screen.

Full screen apps do not fix work flows as well.

A full screen app launcher is a poor way to do it VS a pop up menu. Now have a lot of icons on your desktop for launching can work till the point where it get's to be to much and that is where a start menu can work well.

The windows 7 start menu with most used apps have a side bar with Recent doc is very cool.

Also what about a app that was a few differnt modes or differnt sub apps a stat menu can work well. Let take a game where in the start menu folder you can have the game, the map editor , the unit editor , art editor , ECT all in a pop out menu that does not take up a lot space in a launcher page.

Vote for a third party

[tepples]

you can't bitch about who won if you didn't vote

Hence why I vote a straight Libertarian ticket. Likewise, the laptop into which I'm typing this comment runs neither Windows nor Mac OS X.

It's fine when. . .

[kimvette]

It's fine when your applications consist of:

* Your P&S photo suite
* MSIE
* iTunes
* Microsoft Works (Er, Office Starter Edition)
* That's it

If you work in an office, be it an accountant, system administrator, software engineer, graphic designer, architect, etc. and have 30 software packages installed to do your work, the taskbar will become an absolute nightmare, about as easy to follow as a desktop loaded with 800 icons. Where the hell is $foo?

Why oh why is Microsoft destroying everything about Windows that doesn't suck?

Microsoft, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

You have plenty that is broken:

* Windows/Microsoft updates still require eleventyteen thousand reboots.
* Security is still horribly broken
* Registry bloat over time is still a problem
* Winsxs bloat is a huge problem
* Fragmentation is still a huge problem
* UAC is still brain dead but also ineffective
* USB still sucks. Why must a device re-enumerate and be re-installed as a different device if it is moved from port to port? I *HATE* that! Every other OS does it far more intelligently
* Licensing cost is still outrageous - why should people choose Windows servers over F/OSS solutions?

Re:It's fine when. . .

[geekoid]

"* Windows/Microsoft updates still require eleventyteen thousand reboots."
no they don't. It's rare to need to reboot for a windows update.

* Security is still horribly broken
not really. You might want to talk to the people admining if your security is broke.

"* Registry bloat over time is still a problem"
yes. The registry is broken, they no it but how to you change it?

"* Winsxs bloat is a huge problem"
Application developers have caused it to be a problem because so few of them can do a decent uninstall.
The other reason is so older app will still run. It's far better then dll hell; which I talked to upper management at MS about in the 90s, but hey I was a high priced consultant, don't listen to me.

"* Fragmentation is still a huge problem"
WTF? are you running XP? is that the problem?

"* UAC is still brain dead but also ineffective"
No, It's annoying to people who feel it should apply to them.

"* USB still sucks. Why must a device re-enumerate and be re-installed as a different device if it is moved from port to port? I *HATE* that! Every other OS does it far more intelligently"

No they do they do it differently. Let me know when you can actually think about it and figure out why they do that. That's the part you can discuss.

"* Licensing cost is still outrageous - why should people choose Windows servers over F/OSS solutions?"
Because there is more to it the license cost; which is the cheapest part, BTW.

Re:It's fine when. . .

[kimvette]

no they don't. It's rare to need to reboot for a windows update.
not really. You might want to talk to the people admining if your security is broke.

Really? Set up a box from scratch. You'll reboot a whole bunch of times.
Also, security on Windows is horribly broken.

Application developers have caused it to be a problem because so few of them can do a decent uninstall.

Wrong. Microsoft designed Winsxs so that the updated DLLS remain in that directory and provided no means to clean it up. Installers actually don't copy the files into that directory, Windows itself does.

yes. The registry is broken, they no it but how to you change it?

Go back to config files.

No, It's annoying to people who feel it should apply to them.

No, it's brain dead.

All of this is fine and dandy

[mordred99]

But I don't like it not because it is different, because it does not help me in what I do. I don't pin stuff since I just load windows with the 4 apps I run all the time in the startup script. I Run VMWare Player, Firefox, Task Manager, and Ram Monitor. I start up those programs and then go as I need fit. When I run other things, I CLICK to them, I don't use shortcuts as that is how 90% of my navigation is done in a UI. I associate my files to some program. I want to open an excel file, I click it and it opens. The only time I ever go to start, I use my recent apps and usually it is there. If not, I know how to find it quickly (even though I hate the reverse listing in Windows7, I want folders first, then individual apps.

My keyboard does not have a windows key (It is an old IBM model 80) which I have had for 20 years and love since I can type accurately on it since you have to push hard enough to click the keys, and cannot sloppily hit other keys accidentally. If I cannot click on start, I use control+escape. Same thing.

If this is the direction MS wants to go, then I will leave them like I left Ubuntu when Unity was forced (Or stay on Windows 7 unless I get a FREE copy of windows 8. I won't pay for it). The UI is the most important aspect of an OS, and if it is shit, then I am gone. Hiding things, and making it "easier" or "cleaner" is not what I care about, I want it functional and able to be catered to what I know and like to do. This is not an "get off my lawn" rant, just a simple you are misjudging your target audience rant. Yes the dumb 13 year old kid who knows nothing better does not use the start bar, because they don't know how to crap on a computer, and are taught just to click the pinned app and have never begun to explore what a truly powerful OS can do. And that is what Windows was. A truly powerful OS. Neuter the UI, and it becomes shit that mystics and old wizards like me are the only ones that know how to do anything because we are the only ones who remember all the command codes to do anything powerful.

Re:All of this is fine and dandy

[geekoid]

If that is how you use your desk top, then the new paradigm is right up your alley.

I look forward to seeing this from you in a post 3 years from now
"Or stay on Windows 8 unless I get a FREE copy of windows 9. I won't pay for it)"

"Yes the dumb 13 year old kid who knows nothing better does not use the start bar,"
yes, making the computer easier is 'dumb'.
Why is it dumb to pin your most used apps?
It seems to me going through your menus system to launch an app you do every day is a dumb waste of time.

Jeez, do you listen yo your self or even think about what you are saying?

", I CLICK to them, I don't use shortcuts as that is how 90% of my navigation is done in a UI"
WTF? you will still click them,. you juut won't navigate through the menu system to get to them, you cna even organize them any way you old tired and lazy brain wants to.

gah, the worse part about getting old is so many people my age are stupid ol\d farts just shy of grampa simpson in attitude toward anything different.

Tell me again how you used do tie an onion to your belt.

"It is an old IBM model 80"
which must look nice next to you're rotary phone.

Anyhow, it's obviously you haven't tried windows 8 and are, contrary to your claim otherwise, just hating it because it's changing.

Re:All of this is fine and dandy

[mordred99]

I doubt I will say that unless it is that bad as well as I doubt I will move on. I moved to windows 7 because I got free keys. I like it. I never have not liked it. Windows 8 is currently running in a VM on my third monitor along with my linux box - so saying I never have run it is not correct. I find no compelling reason to switch boxes and my statement stands. Unless I get free keys, I wont switch willingly. I did not switch to Vista when it came out (or ever) just because it was new. I went from XP to 7.

The reason why I don't pin stuff is want the real estate for the other icons I am utilizing currently, which take up the entire bottom row of my machine, without the pinned ones (which there is none). So depending on the day, the client, the tasks, my "favorite" or "most used" apps change and there is no reason to keep pinning and un-pinning because I go to a new client site.

Yes I have a rotary phone, that I converted over to tone. I think it looks cool.

PS I am talking about my home machine - my work machine I have to been on Windows 8, which I really wish I did not have to do, for several months now.

RANT!

[Darth Hubris]

Oh my fucking God! I'm going to Flux/OpenBox. I'm tired of the tiles, jewels, and bangly, big-buttoned food-trough-water over-excited dog wetting shit!

What will happen to me...

[jopsen]

I've just prefixed all key bindings for my window managers with the start-key, without it my PC will just be a overpriced backlit picture frame, with a static background picture!
Damn you Microsoft... :)
</trolling>
Good to see that slashdot haven't lost it capability to bash Microsoft for what might very well be a sensible move.

So...

[ZenDragon]

So how do they expect people to find the programs they want to pin to the task bar in the first place? Browse through C:\Program Files??

Re:So...

[geekoid]

They will be on the desktop already.

So how were they spying on us to figure this out?

[Khyber]

It would seem to me that the only people they're watching is their own employees, maybe a couple of small focus groups. To say that most everyone isn't using a Start button would mean they were snooping on our activities.

Selection Bias

[djdbass]

The people who let the Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement thingy suck up their bandwidth to report feature usage are precisely those people who pin everything.

Start menu usage will be zero!

[Murdoch5]

I honestly don't know a single person who doesn't use the start menu. The correct thing to do isn't to get rid of it but have an option to turn it off the first time you visit the desktop. Now that "Start" is no more I can promiss start menu usage will be going down.

I use the start button

[Stan92057]

I use the start button to get to the programs i don't use everyday and to shut down the computer reboot the computer and when its not in use it disapeers. I do pin to the task bar but i want my desktop relatively clear i like my backgrounds. I don't beleave this for a minute this is MSs way for more desktop real estate, ads and so on and for the PC makers to dump more crap to. I don't need or want a speed bump to the desktop .

Re:So how were they spying on us to figure this ou

[JDG1980]

So how were they spying on us to figure this out? [...] To say that most everyone isn't using a Start button would mean they were snooping on our activities.

No need to guess, it's the Customer Experience Improvement Program. This is turned off by most experienced users for the privacy reasons you mention, and blocked by group policy at most companies. So Microsoft is getting a sample that is heavily loaded with the most inexperienced Windows users.

DAFAQ?!

[PessimysticRaven]

For the love of all that is unholy... "People don't use the 'Start Button?'" and "People use keyboard shortcuts.."

When?! Where?! WHO are these mysterious users?

Ctrl + and "Fn + 1-12" are two of the best kept secrets in using a computer. Rare is the day when I encounter someone that knows how to do either of these.

Because they made it worse

[mdarksbane]

It used to be that the start menu had a direct click to program files, which had a nice list of shortcuts to what you had installed.

Then installer crammed a million things into it, making it an unusably long list.

So they change it to be a scrolling window, that required multiple clicks to do exactly the same thing. Which makes it generally kind of a huge waste of time compared to windows button + start typing.

I used to use the start menu all the time, but they made it slower to use, so I don't any more.

The desktop

[geekoid]

is the start button.

Skewed data

[gubers33]

Anyone who knows anything about computers turns off the reporting to Microsoft feature. I launch almost all of the .msc's by going to Start> and typing it in the search bar, I do the same thing for command prompt and powershell. Also why the hell is the Metro UI in Server 2012? Who the hell is going to managing a server from a tablet?

Press...

[uhuru_meditation]

..Start to Stop?

Curious so many people are defending it

[i286NiNJA]

The start button was invented so that people who had hardly used a computer could identify the first thing they should do to get to their program, then they can make guesses along the way all the way until they're at the selection they want. I think everyone has just gotten used to it but the start menu is overall pretty crappy. Just the menu with the lowest learning curve.

Most of the quicksilver style launching applications are much better options with a just barely higher learning curve plus the added benefit of not having to remove your hands from the keyboard. I have always hated the start button I am surprised to see so many of you defending it. It's borne of the same thinking that created control panel category view.

Brilliant idea

[slashmydots]

What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"

I know! They could have a text field grab focus as soon as the start button is clicked and whatever the user starts typing, it finds it instantly. That'd be so cool and efficient and everyone would use it...oh wait....

Here's what I see...

[El Fantasmo]

People avoid using the start menu for 2 maybe 3 reasons.

1. The start menu is full of company branding abuse not organization. e.g. start=>programs=>company name=>software division=>product series=>launch video editor
It's not perfect, but Gnome 3's menu is more or less organized by what the software does. e.g. "start"=>video applications=>launch video editor

2. Many programs automatically install icons on the desktop AND quick launch bar; no "need" to use the start menu (insert desktop housekeeping argument here)

3. In IT, many deployed programs are given direct launch access via icons on the desktop or quick launch bar, partly because of reason #1.

SINGLE splash screens could fix problem #1, then software could be grouped by default based on what it does, not who made it; but users could still organize it however they want later.

Search

[chiguy]

Do you know if you can search the contents of a pdf file without a 3rd-party ifilter?

I ask because in Windows 7, you need a 3rd-party ifilter to search the contents of a pdf file. There is no built-in support.

Re:Search

[perryizgr8]

pdf viewer is built-in, iirc. so, it should support out-of-the-box searching also.

Re:Search

[UnknownSoldier]

What about _printing_ to PDF without requiring any downloads / 3rd party plugins?

Re:Search

[UnknownSoldier]

So Microsoft wants to help _boost_ the popularity of Adobe's proprietary file format and Adobe didn't like that ??

Why is Apple able to get away with every application supporting "Print to PDF" then? Did Apple write their own implementation of license it? Why is MS not able to do the same?

Re:Search

[perryizgr8]

but word 2010 has the feature! it works pretty well, too.

Microsoft's New Slogan

[tillerman35]

The new slogan: "Microsoft- You'll Get Used to It!"

/still not used to ribbon interface
//seriously?  I have to click "new color" on the "design" tab/ribbon/whatever to change the hyperlink underline color in PowerPoint?

Re:Microsoft's New Slogan

[tillerman35]

///sorry - that's "Create New Theme Color..."

but... but...

[Kaenneth]

I select items from the Start menu in order to Pin them in the first place...

It's like a restaurant removing the menus because everyone just tells the waiter what they want...

Telemetry????

[rueger]

Chaitanya Sareen, principal program manager at Microsoft, said the telemetry gathered from Windows 7

Is it just me, or is that a rather frightening comment? Just who is MS watching, and how fine is the detail???

They have been poisoning the start menu for years

[MobyDisk]

This isn't new. Microsoft has been making the start menu harder and harder to use ever since Windows '9x, and adding more fancy options to try and counter that. If they aren't aware that they are doing this they need to step back and look at the progression.

On Windows '98, the start menu would adjust size to the number of items. It could take up the entire screen. It cascaded to the right as you opened folders. If the novice user merely hovered over a folder it would expand to the right so that the the existing folders didn't move so it wasn't intrusive. It said "Start" so if you had no clue what to do with windows, you knew what to do.

On Windows 7 the start menu is a fixed height. So if you have more items than fit in that fixed area, you must scroll, even if the items would have fit on the screen just fine. There is no hover. When you click on a category, it expands the item vertically, shifting all the other options down. If there wasn't a scroll bar before, now there is! That scroll bar makes you lose horizontal space too, cutting off some folder names and possibly adding a horizontal scroll bar. If that wasn't the category you wanted, you must click again to close it whereas in '98 you just kept moving your mouse.

They completely forgot why they made the start menu. It was single-click access to the list of programs, and one more click to run. No shifting, moving, or scrolling. I like pinning things too, but it doesn't work for everything.

On that note...

[stevenfuzz]

If they are taking features out of windows because users are consistently not using them, by all means, get rid of internet explorer!

Telemetry, Schmelematetrary

[Griffyn]

Well, we'll see what their telemetry says in Metro - I'm guessing people will flock back to the Start button. Oh wait....

Re:fucking retarded

[ClioCJS]

I have 64 bit architecture, and my previous installation of windows did not have two program file folders. While I get what you're saying, you said it wrong. ;)

Re:fucking retarded

[ClioCJS]

Now why would I go and do a crazy thing like that? OS upgrades mean script upgrades. Unless there's a worthy ROE (return on effort), I never upgrade. I only just got from XP to Windows 7 with my last motherboard fry last year. And only went from 2K to XP in 2007 when ATI dropped driver support (assholes, next card I'm buying will be a Sapphire radeon instead of ati radeon). It gets old re-inventing existing functionality over and over. I got other shit to do.

Taskbar/quick launch

[CheshireDragon]

Pinning to the taskbar is no different than adding shortcuts to the quick launch(XP).
I pin items to the taskbar for most commonly used apps. FF, Chrome, Libre Office, Virtual Box and a few random games.
However, I still use the start button for searching for those non-frequent apps. services.msc, msconfig, and a few other maintenance types that are run every month or so.
IMHO, I think dropping the start button is not a bad idea, but rather dumb if it is only for aesthetic purposes.

Why not just make it optional?

[Secret Agent Man]

UX 101. If you have a feature that's this divisive, just make it optional! Heck, I don't care if they turn the start menu button off by default. Just give me an easy way to enable or disable it, then both sides can have their cake. Why is this so hard?

You made me cry.

[Radical Moderate]

Seriously, if that's the future of computing, I'm not sure I want to live.

Yes, but it takes up so much screen real estate...

[Radical Moderate]

leaving the 90%+ of us who use wide-screen monitors a nice little gun slit through which to read our vertically-oriented documents. What's not to love?

Awesome. Soon I'll hate my computer as much...

[Radical Moderate]

...as I hate my phone. Yay consistency.

Preach it, brother!

[Radical Moderate]

Massively irritates me too. I think we need a new term for this type of overblown pseudo-hipster-scientific corporate-ese.

My humble suggestion: douche-speak

Re:Preach it, brother!

[ghostdoc]

I like it :) douche-speak it is :)

Whatever happened to

[Ol Olsoc]

Different strokes for different folks?

Reading through all the posts shows me that different people do things in a different way.

That should be the metric. All too often we hear "I do this!" I do that!", and yes that works. As far as I am concerned, the strength of an operating system is allowing people to work as they want - not to dictate to them. If someone wants Windows classic, by God, they should be able to invoke Windows classic.

Because the Operating system is there to help you do your work, and not get in your way.

My own preferences were XP in classic mode, OSX in the form that has been pretty consistent forever. But those are just my preferences, they aren't better or worse than any other preferences. It's not being a luddite, it's just that my visit to the OS isn't that important. I just want to do it, do it quickly, and get on with work. Microsoft just eliminated a very nice preference.

Poor application of metrics - I want choice!

[computerchimp]

A regular business user might not use it. Home users the same (I use it less as a home user)

System Admins use it. I have way to many items to pin to the taskbar and it is hard to find stuff on the desktop.

Regular business + Home users probably account for 95% + of the audience so system admins and the rest are screwed?

It is not like most of us can just go and use another OS. *****What is the problem with offering choice?******

So it's confirmed.

[Alex Belits]

So it's confirmed -- Microsoft not only is run by evil and stupid people, they are now stupid enough to hinder their own evil plans. Before (under Gates) it was the opposite -- evil enough to rescue their stupid plans.

WHY

[dgharmon]

Why is this deemed a whole article on slashdot?

I use the start button all the time

[initialE]

Coupled with search, I barely have to touch the mouse sometimes. Yes, the focus group appears to be maybe 10 senior managers at Microsoft or something.

well, that explains why I couldn't find it...

[Sosarian Avatar]

No wonder I couldn't find the damn thing for my mother when I tried using her computer -- and she seemingly can't handle the "complex" approach of PrntScrn -> image editor. (I wonder how hard it would be to set Win7 up to open the Snipping Tool when the user hits PrintScreen, like I'm used to in KDE/Linux.)

Microsoft in a nutshell...

[lpt1]

"What can we do with the Start menu to revive it, to give it some new identity, give it some new power?"

I know, I know!
KILL IT!

That'll give it some new power!

Sad but true

[dbIII]

Secretarial staff in my workplace appear to be unable to use anything on their computer for which there is no icon on the desktop. They don't use the start button. They will sit and wait for hours for someone to come and create a shortcut for them instead of using the start button.

cmd.exe

[havana9]

Yeah, let's auto open a cmd.exe shell at start up and work the unix way.

Excellent logic, Mr Ballmer

[obeythefist]

By the same logic, people only ever use the shutdown mechanism of the OS once every session, so it should probably be removed too.

Thank goodness for Classic Start Menu

[LongearedBat]

This is a relief... http://www.neowin.net/news/classic-shell-brings-classic-start-menu-to-windows-8

Classic Start Menu and Classic Shell are about the 1st things I install after making a clean install.

bad decisions

[Tom]

So it took MS almost 20 years to reverse on something that was a stupid decision from the start? And they've replaced it with something... worse, from a user-interface perspective?

Oh well, people will just accept it as always. If you had any hope left for the human race, the way they follow a leader no matter how much he sucks is your evidence that your hopes are misplaced.

No Windows key here.

[cgomezr]

Many commenters are saying that in Windows 8 there is still a start menu, but instead of the start button you access it via the Windows key...

So what about those of us that are still sticking to our model M's?

If Windows 8 is not usabe without the Windows key, then I won't use it. I prefer changing my operating system rather than changing my keyboard.

Fuggled up Start

[MistrX]

Aah the good old Start button.
Why did I stop using it? Oh yeah! Because since Windows Vista the way the Start menu, and in specifically the 'All programs' feature works, is completely messed up.

Way to go Microsoft! I always was fond of the Start Menu workings of Windows XP. A real shame I can't replicate the behavior since the Vista era without 3rd party tools. Without these tools, I don't use it either. It becomes a cluttered mess when you have more then 10 programs installed and 'All programs' LIST it underneath each other.

I prefer to have the listing of my programs spread out so I have a general overview of all my installed applications so I am able to find the application I need quickly. Why is that forbidden and taboo in the Microsoft world?

Please Microsoft, explain this to me.

Re:fucking retarded

[DaveV1.0]

So, in other words, you are speaking from ignorance. Good to know.

Re:So,I am going to pin control panel to the taskb

[lpq]

No...you are going to pin your Start Button to the task bar now...! ;-)

I don't used pin'ed crap on my task bar - takes up too much room.

I brought back the "Quick Launch" area... and balance the

Old news but I post anyway...

[dinther]

I recall that replicating a desktop on a computer screen was the pinnacle of innovation. But the paradigm is shifting. There is no longer a lot of value in showing a big empty computer screen by default.

Don't forget the discussions about widgets for IOS that fills a screen with app icons like the old Windows 3.1 program manager used to do. Why fill a screen with icons that show nothing when you could display selected widgets instead.

But none of this is new. Remember desktop widgets and their "push" technology? The metro front end is just a front end. I am sure you can still have the old start button.

Re:I did

[robsku]

I blame program developers for allowing the Start Menu to become such a mess. Why create a folder named after the software developer? If I want to play Grand Theft Auto 4, I don't want to browse to "Rockstar Games" first. Ideally, they would create a single icon under "Games". Why put a shortcut to the uninstaller on the Start Menu? If I want to uninstall your program, I'll go to Add/Remove Programs. I really don't need a shortcut to your website on my Start Menu. If I want to look at your website, I'll freakin' Google it.

This is why I really like how menus are done in Linux (and, I would assume, other modern *nix systems follow the same way too - at least major desktop environments do) - programs are so easy to find by category... Back in my Windows days with '95 I actually did organize my Start Menu this way too, though it needed maintenance :)

Why not allow for *slight* customization?

[seandiggity]

Gnome and KDE easily allow the user to add or remove the main menu/"start button"...xfce, lxde and openbox, etc. allow for customization as well and it doesn't blow anyone's mind. I've seen plenty of "average users" adapt to these interfaces without struggling.

Would it radically alter the Windows documentation and training to include the option of pinning a start menu to the taskbar? It seems there are plenty of other customization options they're willing to throw at users in the past few years. I understand Microsoft likes to cram interfaces down everyone's throats in an attempt to make them the de facto standard, but this Metro move seems to be shooting them in the foot; so much negative press before the product even ships, and I would think they'd still have the bad taste of Vista in their mouths.