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Kernel Dev Tells Linus Torvalds To Stop Using Abusive Language
darthcamaro writes "The Linux Kernel Development Mailing List can be a hostile place for anyone. Now Intel developer Sarah Sharp is taking a stand and she wants the LKML to become a more civil place. Quoting her first message: 'Seriously, guys? Is this what we need in order to get improve -stable? Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence. Ingo Molnar and Linus are advocating for verbal abuse. ... Violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse is not acceptable. Keep it professional on the mailing lists.'"
The entire thread is worth a read, but Linus isn't buying it: "Because if you want me to 'act professional', I can tell you that I'm
not interested. I'm sitting in my home office wearing a bathrobe. The
same way I'm not going to start wearing ties, I'm *also* not going to
buy into the fake politeness, the lying, the office politics and
backstabbing, the passive aggressiveness, and the buzzwords. Because
THAT is what 'acting professionally' results in: people resort to all
kinds of really nasty things because they are forced to act out their
normal urges in unnatural ways.'
He also offered cookies in exchange for joining the dark side. An earlier reply by Linus further explains why he thinks it is OK to be mean: most of the time, he's only yelling at people who should know better (cultivating a crew of lead developers bound to him by Stockholm Syndrome?).
Torvalds was always like that and whining won't change him.
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If someone else managed to do his job better than him it would be trivial to do a fork. That this has not happened is a testament that his way doing things works. Simple as that. So what if he is verbally abusive.
How can you not be playing the victim card when you self-identify as a minority, join a community and demand that it change it's standards to match your own?
if you ever worked well any job you know what hes talking bought. people nice to your face wile they back stab you in backroom office talks.
i love this guy (linus). he is kinda zen master ,he says what he think, without any fear
Deal with it. No one is forcing you to work with him. The great thing about FOSS and the Linux kernel is you can fork it all you want. You can take your ball and go home.
The English have mastered delivering withering insults very politely. Simply being polite does not make you "nice". Is it more "professional" to wrap your disdain for an idea in language that is courteous on the surface? Maybe. Is the emperor going to change? Unlikely.
Anarchists never rule
I just recently graduated with a degree in mathematics, and a minor in computer science. I can program well, for the amount of experience I have, and I would love to get better. I, personally, think that one of the best ways that I could get better is to contribute to OSS projects. However, I can't lie, reading stories about the abusiveness of the community is a huge turn off. Now, I realize that I am probably not one of those people who 'should know better,' and I realize that really extraordinary outbursts are rare (which is why they get reported on, obviously), but I still have enormous trepidation about joining the OSS community. I feel I may have talent and ideas to contribute, but when I see stories about the way that people get treated when they make mistakes, it makes me want to avoid the whole thing. I wouldn't be doing it for money, I would be doing it for fun, and to learn. And as far as I'm concerned, if I'm going to be abused for making mistakes, I am not having fun, and I am likely not learning much either. Now, again, I understand that this is not usually the case as far as OSS development, but I'm just relaying my gut reaction to hearing about behavior like that.
I once read a study of string quartets and communication methods. Some quartets were nice to each other and polite and tried not to hurt each other's feelings. Others insulted each other and said just what they thought.
The quartets that were willing to insult each other, and even sometimes get into fights, ended up playing music much more as a team, whereas the 'polite' quartets played poorer music, because instead of resolving disputes, they ended up each playing their own way.
Linus doesn't insult people, he insults what they do, when they do stupid things. Don't break the build/submit poorly written patches/etc and there isn't a problem. It is not personal at all.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
For as much as I respect Linus for the work he's done, his outbursts are getting old and are not funny anymore. I dislike political correctness and bullshit as well, but if you really have a point to make in this regard, it can be made with less rhetorical aggression, even when being blunt about it.
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
I know this has to happen sooner or later.
For past few decades, political Correctness has been steadily encroaching into all aspects of our lives, and now, even the Linux Kernel Development is not spared.
I hope sane minds within the KD will prevail, and stop the PC disease from spreading further, or else, they would start to cherry-picking for some of the more exotic labels within the source codes and make a mountain out of a molehill.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Ha ha! That's rich!
I mean, that's rich, and so's Linus, but you aren't. Rich, that is. Working from home in your bathrobe and getting rich doing it providing something of such valuable that it's used practically everywhere you turn is hardly the hallmark of a loser.
Now, if what he primarily produced was sarcastic Starcraft II commentary videos, that'd be a different story...
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
From one of the more recent things he engaged his primary flame-cannon over, the person he aimed it at did screw up pretty badly and for no apparent reason (I mean, seriously, submitting code that you don't know if it works and you admit is probably not necessary? Don't do that).
So no, I don't think he's a dick for the sake of being a dick - he's a dick because people shouldn't be submitting things that are broken and that kind of person deserves to be told off.
I guess he does enjoy being a dick, but he doesn't associate his bad temper with being Linux's creator, this can be easily checked in his first answer, here: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137392506516022&w=2
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As soon as someone uses the phrase "not acceptable" they've admitted they've lost, they're merely trying to impose something between their ears on another person, it is not a reason to do anything. Someone will always object to any action you care to take or plan to take. "A man who has no enemies is no good, you can't move without making friction"
Anyone who has worked with her in her capacity as the USB3 driver majordomo knows what a PITA she can be.
I don't think she is in any position to offer advice on professional behavior.
Sarah:
> Let's discuss this at Kernel Summit where we can at least yell at each
> other in person. Yeah, just try yelling at me about this. I'll roar
> right back, louder, for all the people who lose their voice when they
> get yelled at by top maintainers. I won't be the nice girl anymore.
>
Linus:
That's the spirit.
Greg has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.
Come to the dark side, Sarah. We have cookies.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Not being a dick != political correctness
& why haven't they hit this realization yet!? You add walls, you lose efficiency. Half the reason office politics like this bullshit exist is liability. On the internet, everything's either anonymous or traceable to a single person so liability is a moot issue. & if Torvalds verbally assaults you, you don't bitch about it, you absorb his neckbeardy wisdom & graciously add it to your being. Hasn't anyone been to nerd church!?
Though I may sympathize with Sarah's viewpoint, I think that it's counter-productive to antagonize (whether justtfied or not) the founder/leader of the largest open source project (equivalent to CEO of Fortune50 company). Instead the better move would be to appeal to the benefits of changing the culture, and attempting to play to the founder's strengths and beliefs to empahsize and lend validity to your point. e.g: "For a better, more productive environment, we should avoid verbal put-downs and taunts, as this would improve cooperation and involvement"
When I try to do this - sometimes I find myself talking myself out of what I was about to say - because I find a rationale for the undesirable conditions that I can't accommodate with my idea, e.g.: "Linus doesn't have time to be worry about being nice without sacrificing timeliness, efficiency and efficacy".
Of course, framing your argument with the neutral point of view doesn't make waves or make the /. frontpage.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Sarah: Hey assholes, let's not be so mean, ok?
Linuz: bitches, please.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
be honest, with logic
Linus is damaging the reputation of Linux one profane outburst at a time. His conduct towards the developers, abusive language and such would get you fired in any Fortune 500 environment. CIO's will read about the petulant profane behavior in industry rags and ask themselves if they want to build an enterprise around software controlled by someone who cannot control his own emotions. Professional behavior is not about fake politeness or passive aggressive behavior. Professional behavior is about engaging your peers in civil discourse. You can say something is broken or the code is wrong with critical analysis and without angry profane screeds.
What's to stop anyone who doesn't want to deal with the violence just fork the Kernel and do their own thing? If you don't like the abuse, fork it!
I would say he isn't really that mean. Sure it comes off as a bit like he lost control, but that's the point. In the "professional" world, people have consequences for losing control so they just bottle it up and act out in other non-obvious ways. Either way you got to let the reality out.
Facts:
1) Coding is stressful.
2) Meeting deadlines is stressful.
3) Managing competing personalities is stressful.
Solutions:
1) Duke it out in the open and understand that at the end of the day you are rated on your work or
2) Go into CYA & backstabbing and end up getting judged on personalities.
Violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse is not acceptable. Keep it professional on the mailing lists.
Not acceptable? By who's standards?
It's seems acceptable by the law in most countries that matter for the development of the linux kernel.
It seems acceptable by the main dude (Linus)
It seems acceptable by the developers, as they could have forked and started their own project with a more acceptable mailing list policy.
Who is it not acceptable to? and why can't those people make their own fork or simply not participate in the mailing list? (besides Sarah Sharp) If we were losing lots of talented developers because they just couldn't bear the mailing list, that would be a different story.
There is no absolute morality of the way things should be. There is what works. If you have a way to make something work better, no one is stopping you.
I thought his rant on OpenSuse and needing root access for connecting a new printer or wireless network was pretty funny.
I find that language offensive. Please use the word 'appendage'.
As soon as someone claims that someone else has lost an argument by using a particular turn of phrase, they've automatically lost the argument. They'e just demonstrated that they don't care about an argument's merits, only whether someone happens to hit their particular pet peeve buzzword.
Is it really a chance to grab power? If she can assert her will in this, does she become "a voice to be reckoned with"?
I saw a really mediocre movie once where it was asserted that when guys have an argument, they get it right out in the open, do a lot of chest beating, and then get to working together. Women on the other hand will play everything behind the scenes - cloaking it all in an air of civility while they sharpen their knives.
Since I saw that movie (ashamed to say I saw it, but if you happen to remember the reference go ahead and out yourself), I've notice that it's actually a very true statement.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
Okay, that's nice. Do you talk that way to your wife while at home in your bathrobe? Your mother? Neighborhood children? It's not "fake politeness" to stop using abusive language, it's normal politeness. You're just being an asshole.
Not being a dick != political correctness
There are few things more dickish than 'you must behave the way I tell you to' political correctness.
"Not being a dick" depends highly on the opinion and the sensibilities of the people affected. Trying to not be a dick to everyone regardless of their arbitrary sensibilities is called being politically correct, and it is a great disease of our time.
What some people call "political correctness," others call "having some fucking consideration for people other than themselves."
However, I can't lie, reading stories about the abusiveness of the community is a huge turn off.
The Kernel Dev Mailing List isn't for people who are without strong will.
You need to have the skin of a thousand rhino and the determination of the super-est of all supermen to push your idea across the many seasoned, and equally thick-skinned developers.
The so-called "abusive languages" is but a mechanism to weed out ideas which are not fully thought-over.
The very thing that has become a "turn off" for you to others is a challenge that they must overcome.
If you can't stand the heat, dear Sir, I suggest you to get out of the kitchen.
Obviously you are not made for the Kernel Development for Linux.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
In this case, it's the Helsinki Syndrome.
Anyway, judging by the summary alone, Linus is right. Phony politeness will not result in real respect.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Verbally abusing someone indicates a lack of verbal skills in the sense that the abuser can't express yourself properly.
You're implying two things here:
1. The person who verbally abuses does so because they can't express themself in another way (this is false), and
2. Verbal abuse isn't "proper" - define "proper".
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Linus becoming polite on his e-mails is going to happen right after the Linux kernel gets ported entirely to C#.
My standard reply for this kind of issue is, simply linking this 3sec video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmnN3eVMWgA
morcego
How about just stop being an abusive dick? You're talking to human beings. There is no political correctness involved. It's simply being civil to other human beings. Human beings trying to help you improve something you both care deeply about.
What's this got to do with political correctness?
want civilized work... join a corporation... then you can find out that despite "words" not being said ... there's often times much more wickedness all around you... they just do it all with a smile on their faces while planting the daggers in your back.
Then those others are morons. How much consideration do the politically correct have for anyone but themselves?
The world would be a much better place if more people were willing to tell others to fuck off.
Being a dick is a purposeful act. Simply don't be a dick and the uber thin skinned self-reveal.
It's his prerogative to behave badly if he wants, but he doesn't get to choose how other people react to it. If Sharp doesn't like it, she's free to choose more mature people to collaborate with.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I've worked with people like Linus many times; brilliant, know it, and abuse those who suggest ideas that don't align with their world view. They are usually correct when they shoot down an idea. However, I avoid them at all costs, both from a hiring and from peer perspective, because they are a cancer in most organizations, and the long term cost of dealing with their anti-social behaviour greatly outweighs the benefit they bring.
Abuse does not solve problems. Belittling others does not benefit anyone. It's fine to be blunt and explain why the idea proposed will not work, it saves time and energy. It is sign of a deeply flawed personality to attack the person who proposed the idea that won't work.
What's this got to do with political correctness?
Nothing at all. That is just the "PC Card" that is played whenever rude or abusive people don't like to be told they are acting like wanton children. It's their excuse to act as rude as they like for the sake of the attention it brings them.
Does he use "violence, whether it be physical intimidation, verbal threats or verbal abuse" to get his wife and kids to do something?
I'm guessing he does not.
...with their faux outrage at Linus' "tantrums." They're not, if you read context, but this isn't about context. This "controversy" is all about slamming Linus personally and Linux by implication by comparing his management style against a non-existent ponies-and-rainbows environment. And this isn't the first time it's happened here.
Such bullshit.
--
BMO
Saying something is "not acceptable" is not an argument. It's a demand. Or, at best, a whine.
And demanding that people 'act professionally' is demanding that they shut up and do what they're told, because that's what 'acting professionally' means.
People talk that way at the office, it's just not openly aired. The LKML is like an office for the developers, but it's kept around for all to see, it's not shocking to me that it crosses the lines of what one would see in corporate email, when people are much more in contact with those they work with. I also like that actual offensive behavior can be seen by all, and tracked.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
Verbally abusing someone indicates a lack of verbal skills
Well, English is his fourth or fifth language, so he's not very good with it.
Not true, very successful people are verbally abusive. Whether you're talking about open source projects or a fortune 500 executive, those with notable accomplishment, excellence, leadership are usually verbally abusive and moreover are gifted in expressing themselves.
Being blunt has gotten me a lot further than being polite ever did.
There was this one customer/client/coworker (yeah, fucked-up business relationship), who just did not get what was going on. I tried being polite. I tried using all his lingo, "actioning" this and whatnot. I tried. It got me nowhere.
One phone call where I straight-up said "that problem was *your* fuckup, and I am tired of cleaning up your mess then getting blamed by you for it because you weren't even aware of the problem until I took care of it", and that got me further than months of politeness.
Hell, we still seem to get along. I think we've been communicating even better now that I've stopped "artificially limiting" my communications. I actually just made a note to myself to yell at him to check his code before he checks it in - there was a SQL file with an *obvious* syntax error, one that our standard IDE (which he uses) highlights...
Well eat shit and fuck off then. Linus can do the same.
Probably third, actually.
I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
Poor Linus - herding abusive internet cats is a near impossible task...
Then yet another attention grabbing activist (with a pretty average CV) shouts louder, but more politely, about how everyone is shouting too much... oh an using bad words.
While I agree professionality is key to getting a project over the line, half the internet needs to harden up and grow a psychological thicker skin. The other half is using volume and offense to bully the first half.
Enter Linus who uses the arsehole method to get the meek's opinion heard - oh and look another crusader out for five minutes (fifteen is for special people) of fame by criticizing the techniques used by someone who is essentially their ally.
To summarise this trend is why I no longer participate in ANY of the projects I used to coordinate.
(Five red frogs for guessing who I am, I've got a higher profile than, who is she - Sarah Sharp?)
I'm sitting in my home office wearing a bathrobe.
Linus is one beard away from becoming RMS.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
The world must seem to simple to someone as simpleminded as you, doesn't it?
If you ask a humble question or make a polite request to someone who represents a system (political, corporate, cultural etc.) and get an aggressive response, you have acted politically incorrect. It's what you say to whom, not how you say it. Linus Torvalds might be a rebel in the world of tech giants but in the community of linux kernel developers, he is a person of power and should take it seriously when someone points out a problem.
When asked why, the answer is almost always: "It's 2014".
I fully support Linus on this, years of project management helps you realize many things. This is one.
Being verbally abusive like this basically helps you to tell more objectively how much people does actually care about something, and it works very well with people who just likes to argue for the sake of being right.
You are serving them on a plate the perfect excuse to walk away with the moral high ground. If they take it by becoming offended or complain, you immediately can tell how much did they care to begin with.
When they answer back and keep on topic, they definitely might have a point.
You'll always do something to turn off some people, you can't worry about the 1%; and if the way you've been doing things for years has been working well then you don't even have to consider it. It ain't broke -- it's working quite well actually -- so don't fix it. Personally, I'd rather someone pay me the respect of being honest and direct (even, to the point of being considered mean) rather than waste my time being "nice".
There are few things more dickish than 'you must behave the way I tell you to' political correctness.
Like the "you must tolerate my gratuitous abuse because I am more important than you" 'tude?
When I'm speaking to someone, it is unacceptable for them to treat me with discourtesy, as I do not treat them in that manner. It is a delimitation, not an imposition. It is a statement that the *manner* in which they've chosen to present their argument is unacceptable, not the argument itself. No one has the unfettered right to abuse others in whatever manner they see fit.
Similarly confusing the written word and speech indicates a lack of reading comprehension skills :)
I think you win the "epic fail" award for the comments on this article, which appears to be about a storm in a teacup anyway.
If she works as a dev at Intel and is subject to such abusive language because of the work she does at Intel, then Intel could have a harassment lawsuit in their future.
*Some* very successful people. I do believe you're stating on opinion and mine is more centric.
The issue can be reduced to one question: do meritocracies need to be harsh environments? Anyone has an example of an open source project that manages to be both a meritocracy and an nice group without mean elements?
If Sarah cannot stand the heat, she should go back to the kitchen.
See - now that is political incorrectness.
Oh, you mean the meme: "Profanity is the literary crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers"?
This is supposedly anonymous (according to Google) but is a paraphrased post (original was "last resort of") by vj on alt.tasteless in 1994. You had to be there to see it in context, when the world was a funnier place.
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
If you're so into tolerance, why don't you tolerate my intolerance? GOTCHA QED /s
Linus isn't a dick though; indeed, he's quite laid-back and personable. When he criticizes someone like this, his criticisms are almost universally very accurate, and he only uses "extreme" language when (1) the person he's addressing did something really stupid ("merely stupid" isn't enough) and (2) that person really should have known better (so he doesn't tend to do this to strangers, only people he's well acquainted with, and has some trust in). He doesn't just call people names, he makes detailed technical arguments which happen to be decorated with er, expressive language.
This particular style is very common in the tech world, and if anything, Linus is far better than most, because he strictly sticks to technical criticisms; his language may be extreme, but for him, it isn't personal—if he is wrong, he'll very quickly admit it and apologize. Almost all of the time, the conversation quickly calms down and settles into a discussion of how to make things right. Note that this makes him vastly better than average: there are many others in the tech community who do take things personally, and won't back down no matter how obviously wrong they are.
This style isn't to everyone's tastes, and to someone who isn't familiar with Linus or the LKML, I guess it can be startling to see one of these exchanges. Maybe there are times when he goes too far. But claims that he's "abusive" are simply laughable. Things are not always as they appear at first glance...
We live, as we dream -- alone....
I've worked projects since then where I'd wished I could verbally abuse co-workers. There's a general theme there. All those people who I wanted to abuse sucked. I think the moral of this story is, if you don't want to be verbally abused, try sucking less. :-P
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I am not THAT naive, my friend.
I'm pretty sure he's doing an outrageous parody of the prior post do demonstrate that the logic is untenable.
You want to upvote/downvote? Go back to Reddit! Here we mod up/mod down.
Honest and direct is great. Ranting like something out of the Downfall Parodies, not so much.
If Sarah cannot stand the heat, she should go back to the kitchen.
See - now that is political incorrectness.
Yet also a fair statement. After all, when you attempt to join a community you either abide by the rules and customs of that community or else you leave and go elsewhere. You do not demand that community change to meet your world view.
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
I think (2) is something people often miss. If you're a n00b who posts something stupid on LKML, you are not going to get massive old-school-Usenet-style flames. When heated LKML arguments make it to Slashdot, it's almost always a case where both sides are actually reasonably known, like the maintainers of two different Linux subsystems having strong disagreements over direction. You don't find Linus flaming a college kid, both because that would be unnecessarily mean, and because it wouldn't be worth his time to write out long heated posts just to rebut n00bs.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
People talk that way at the office, it's just not openly aired.
If anyone spoke to another person in our office the way Linus does, he'd be taking his teeth home in a paper sack.
Linus has the protection of the intarwebz to prevent him from suffering the natural consequences of treating people the way he does.
Life needs more saving throws.
"...and, if it were possible, I'd say it's time to do the same to that kid Linus."
You mean, in order to have him back in a few years as the only means to save Linux from wreakeage and make it value 100x what it previously was?
Well, it seems quite a good idea, after all.
I'm glad there's no talking behind each others back at your office.
I didn't mean people talk to each others face that way, and I meant that as a benefit to it being open. In a typical office it's all talking behind backs.
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
American Civil Rights Movement.
Done, done.
So he's an abusive twat, deal with it. Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
When did civility become a disease?
Most of the time when people complain about political correctness, it's because they the self-discipline or the intelligence necessary to compose a polite reply. Clearly Linus is not lacking in intelligence, but he seems short on common sense here.
Political correctness, when done well, is a more effective weapon than boorishness. Calling someone a fool is easy, but crass and wasteful. In the eyes of the audience it lowers you to the level of the fool, and you have to work harder to prove you aren't. Giving someone else the opportunity to open their own mouth and prove themselves a fool, now that's economical. They'll happily blather out their inanity on their own, if you let them.
John
Apparently not, because some people, like this woman, keep complaining about the things that are supposedly "done".
I'm very honest and direct with the people who work with and for me. And yet magically I'm not an asshole like Linus. If you're incapable of delivering an honest and direct message without abusing people, then you're a shitty human being.
Honest and direct: "This is not good enough. The logic is flawed and the code is sloppy. Go back and do it again".
Asshole: "How fucking stupid do you have to be to write something like this crap".
See the difference?
Life needs more saving throws.
Linus gets love and only love on this website. Very strange. All these people saying "professionalism" doesn't matter must not work around other people. Every person doing a job anywhere you interact with, you expect professionalism. Or would you like your waiter to cuss you out over your choice of dinner?
And no one did this better than Steve Jobs from what I heard from people who've been in meetings with him. In the corporate world, essentially the CEO, a few execs, and star sales members, can get away with being foul mouthed and abusive but absolutely everyone else has to be polite. So what happens if that you get some major culture shock of seeing unprofessional behavior when you find yourself in a meeting with the CEO, however you also get that culture shock if you start working on open source.
Then you must work in a dismal place if threats are tolerated. If I were to threaten my coworkers with a richly-deserved beating, security would be emptying my desk for me.
John
At the office, I told one coworker to fuck off. Just once. In person. In front of the team (sans manager). He sulked off. When a round of layoffs hit and took him with it, he asked for me to be a reference.
Sometimes, just sometimes, that verbal slap in the face is exactly what is needed to wake someone up. And they may just respect you more afterwards than they did before.
... is fucking complicated. Especially if you have a good idea of what principles need to be followed as how to make decisions on what stays and what goes in terms of quality or goal of the overall project.
There's lots of people out there who THINK they have skill but are garbage since most people suffer from the Dunning Krueger effect in a similar way that most people believe they are 'above average'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes."
The problem is as you advance in skill you have limited time and options in order to convey the vast warehouse of knowledge in your brain as whether to something stays or goes on any given project. Any project has a tendency to become a big mess or fall apart over time since. How many OSS projects are started only to be abandoned? Lots.
Someone has to make the big decisions and when you have seen and worked on so many projects you develop techniques to quickly shut down bad ideas and often time that means being direct and even rude to the clueless because you simply don't have the time, energy, means to communicate to the other party on what's and why's.
Lack of conflict, and harsh language does NOT mean civil. In practice, in the US, it means dishonesty.
That said, honesty without compassion is brutality.
I've never seen Linus be brutal
If you're so into tolerance, why don't you tolerate my intolerance? GOTCHA QED /s
For the same reason that "free market" is an oxymoron. Either the market is regulated by a central authority, or it is quickly captured by a dominant player(s) and ceases to function as a market. The one thing that you are not free to do is to impede others' freedom.
If a "tolerant society" allowed its members to be intolerant to one another, it would no longer be a tolerant society. The sole bit of uniformity we ask of our members is that they not judge us based on all our other nonuniformities. Is that so hard to understand?
And to save you the trouble of responding to my straight-man comeback, WHOOSH.
And demanding that people 'act professionally' is demanding that they shut up and do what they're told, because that's what 'acting professionally' means.
No, apparently, acting professionally means not wearing a bathrobe when you work in your home office.
In reality, acting professionally means not being insulting and abusive and treating people like crap because they have an idea you don't like or because they made a mistake. It has nothing to do with how you dress in the privacy of your own home or not being able to tell someone they made a mistake or you don't like their ideas.
They respect him, of course. They may even admire him or even worship him. But how many people who have to interact with him personally actually like him?
Does he behave this way to his family? The arguments he makes offer no distinctions between technical stupidity and any other kind. Does he abuse his wife/children because they don't come up to his standards of smartness? I am guessing not. If so, then he is being a hypocrite by abusing his professional acquaintances, who doubtless feel compelled to put up with his rude behavior because of the aforementioned admiration/respect.
However this is also what many people complain about with bad managers. There are many ways to handle problems and not all of them involve yelling and abuse. It affects more than just the person receiving the chewing out, the bystanders are also influenced and may feel that they're in a hostile environment (ie, stressed out to never make a mistake lest they get same treatment). There are managers who strongly felt that yelling was the proper way to motivate people, however those managers are now much more rare because companies are more aware of the problems and crack down on it.
Ie, the old saying of "you attract more flies with honey than vinegar" covers this subject, as well as books like "How to win friends and influence people".
In this case I think the abuse is in doing the chewing out in public. That is fully intended to embarrass that person as well as intimidate others. A private message would have also served the purpose to correct the developer, and especially if the developer doesn't mind emails full of expletives then Linus could go crazy in that private email. I am certain there are people out there who shy away from Linux kernel development precisely because of the culture on those mailing lists. Some people thrive on stress and others wilt under it.
American Civil Rights Movement.
Why American specifically?
And how is that relevant? Did the black Americans demand that whites adopt Ebonics or asians wear afros?
No, when the black guy gets a seat in the boardroom, he still needs to wear a suit and tie, not a hoodie.
Gaining admittance and equality is not the same as forcing your culture on an existing one.
There are many things that one does not have any sort of duty to accept. Of course it's not an argument; it's a statement.
Raping children is not acceptable. There are those who would argue otherwise. Saying it's not acceptable doesn't make anyone "lose the argument." The same is true about many things far less extreme.
What matters is the basis upon which someone uses "it's not acceptable." That determines whether or not the statement has merit. A blanket statement saying it has no merit itself has no merit.
Yep, if you do something monumentally stupid at work, you get called into the private conference room and yelled at there instead of over the intercom system.
It'll respond to brute force attacks with gratitude and decline access and instead of interrupts it'll have a please-thank you algorithm. The only security issue will be using the word "please" to gain root privileges as it'll feel obliged to do as you ask when you use the magic word.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
Well good luck with that.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
the CEO, a few execs, and star sales members, can get away with being foul mouthed and abusive but absolutely everyone else has to be polite.
That may be the case in the corporate world. But Linus will take it as well as dish it out.
I have often seen this same "enforced politeness" tried on other mailing lists, and the result is always the same. The "wizards" soon migrate somewhere else, and the mailing list becomes nothing but a bunch of clueless (but polite) noobs commiserating with each other.
I've always thought that political correctness is just another excuse for the educated elites to look down on everyone else.
Offensiveness doesn't come from words, it comes from the thoughts and actions behind those words. We've gone from nigger to negro to black to african-american back to black...and guess what? Racism hasn't gone away. All you do is replace one word with another word that has the exact same meaning. That's not progress; that's just confusion and wasted effort. Racists will still be racists no matter what words they're using to express it.
Which is essentially the same argument Linus is using -- assholes will be assholes no matter how you dress them up; why waste time and energy trying to sweep that under the rug?
Well, of course I do, but this has nothing to do with the subject at hand. We're talking about that particular dude, and at most, he decorates his (quite extensive) technical critiques of other's people sloppiness with very colorful epithets (of the harsh type but still). And more importantly, he does that when he communicates with people he's worked with for years and with whom he's got a relationship that can carry that sort of tone. My following remark will invariably offend you, but, having some outsider coming to me and telling me how to talk to someone I've been working with for years (and with whom I've built a level of trust), well, that's the asshole.
Defenses of Linus' behavior and sometimes the poster's stated motives, allow anyone to quickly identify the /. trolls. Informative AND utilitarian. I approve of this story.
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
If you would seriously physically assault someone speaking to you bluntly, you are the one with a problem.
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My premise: People are dumb
My evidence: All People. Ever.
My solution: Tell them they are dumb.
You can not place blame effectively with PC language, it strips you of all impact. In many cases, such as those described in the stories where Linus goes off on people, these people needed to be blamed, and needed to understand that they deserved that blame. There are more creative ways to do it than to use foul language, but lets face it. Telling someone they "fucked up" has impact. If you do it publicly it has even more. If it causes the person to leave the project, then maybe they didn't learn, but they won't be fucking up anything else on your project. Linux is slightly too important to be fucking up the build.
Also, the reason I'm a non-dev is fear of the corporate environment where there is no open communication, just a lot of P's and Q's being minded. I would absolutely adore the business world if you could tell a person to their face that they'd fucked up and not expect to get written up or fired over it. We're all humans, not a single one of us has ever died from vulgar language, lets get the fuck over it.
so many of the people around him tolerate his behavior (except obviously Ms. Sharp).
They tolerate him because they are somehow benefiting from their association with him or with his product.
Once they no longer benefit from their relationship to Linus or his product, they will no longer tolerate his behavior.
"I have these explosive emails. And that works well for some people. And it probably doesn't work well with you." - Linus Torvalds
At a certain point his stardom will wane and when that happens I think he will find that his "explosive" emails no longer work "well" for some people.
Linus talking about this very thing in a talk at Aalt University in Helsinki (video: 02:50 minutes).
FYI, the entire video here (video, 01:03:57 hours).
I'm not a kernel maintainer, but I built android cyanogenmod kernels/images recently(poorly documented/poorly supported TEGRA2!#$%#). Stating it was frustratingly wasteful of time would be an understatement. All this to say I can relate to the waste of time a broken build is.
I support Linus! If you can't take Linus' heat, stay out of the kitchen! f@#$ There should be zero tolerance for this kind of thing especially when there are mailing lists for discusson/clarification/peer-reviewing with other contributors, kernel maintenance guidelines and howtos.
The whole exchange is actually an excellent example of the behavior she is calling out. She asks if this kind of discourse has a place on a kernel mailing list.
It's a fair question. Does Linus answer it? No. He dodges the whole thing by claiming her request to review the culture on the list is being equally oppressive. Seriously, if this kind of thing is being held up as excellent technical leadership, it's no wonder that our industry suffers from a complete lack of diversity in terms of women and minorities. I know some don't see this as a problem. Others do.
To make it more blunt, I'm sure there's plenty of people that don't mind working with this kind of posturing, macho bullshit that shows up from time to time on this and other lists. I'm not one of them. Maybe it means I'm less successful. But you know what, I happy with that.
Things like this will always lead to the question "what could have been" if Linux or other OSS projects had leadership that didn't need to resort to personal attacks and intimidation to protect "their creations". Egoless programming is way harder than it appears.
The responses to this, if any, could be provide some interesting insights. To be sure, it is easier to make things personal on the internet, but is that an excuse for doing so?
I heard Gates/Ballmer can turn into screaming fountains of epitaphs and profanities the likes of which could curdle milk. Also have heard the same about the (now dead) Steve Jobs. So Linus does the same thing and it's news?
I was in a corp a few weeks ago where a manager started on a rant detailing some of his reprehensible views, including legalizing pedophilia. He followed up with, "if you don't like it you can just leave the corp." Sorry, but I don't want unfettered access to the crudest thoughts in the mind of every human being I interact with. Even if you can't understand why, there's a point to civility and social standards.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
What's up with the assumption that women are delicate little flowers that need to be protected because they can't handle...anything? Seems to me like your POV is a bigger problem.
That's funny, did we even read the same exchange?
Because it seems pretty obvious that Linus is right, and it's the other developer who is throwing her threatening a hissy fit like a three year old because she isnt used to anyone daring to speak frankly in front of her.
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How very Linus of you.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
Politeness certainly has its place, and its indespensible in a corp. environment (I guess), but its kinda of useless in a creative-technical one. If you're about to absently place your hand in the path of a kilowatt-power laser and I notice, and I like you well enough, I'm not going to be polite about the warning. But if you've introduced a critical flaw in a code tree I maintain that gets propigated to the world on a regular basis I'm going to be down right rude.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Linus said:
And I really don't tend to curse unless people are doing something
stupid and annoying. If people have concerns and questions that I feel
are valid, I'm more than happy to talk about it.
I curse when there isn't any argument. The cursing happens for the
"you're so f*cking wrong that it's not even worth trying to make
logical arguments about it, because you have no possible excuse" case.
To say Linus is throwing tantrums misses the content of his message.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
There is nothing wrong with being polite when you judge it to be adequate. There is a lot wrong with being forced to be polite when you don't judge it adequate because someone feels offended.
Language's main objective is to transmit information. When you stop using words and expressions because you think they are rude, or offensive, when you stop saying things because you think people will be hurt you are altering the meaning of what you want to transmit, because no two words mean exactly the same thing.
Sometimes it is necessary to do so, but doing so as a principle cripples the language, and when you cripple the language you sooner or later cripple critical thinking that opposes the mainstream thinking.
That is the whole technique used in 1984 by introducing the Newspeak. You should read this book, it will be enlightening I promise. You will see a lot of similarities between the the Politically Correct doctrine and the books's Nationalist doctrine that was indoctrinated into people.
Likewise.
I haven't seen any evidence of "hundreds of thousands of great developers that would love to contribute if they were not being bullied down" The LKML may occasionally exchange civility for productivity and transparency. I'd prefer to have it this way and have a stable kernel than a wishy-washy maintainer using corporate-speak and making excuses for people who aren't delivering to the standards required by the project. There are literally thousands of Free / OSS projects in need of developers. Many of those projects have friendlier maintainers and environments. There is ample opportunity to be involved with Free Software in a place that matches a developer's temperament. The LKML is not for for the thin-skinned.
Steve Jobs was an asshole.
So was Bill Gates.
So is Larry Ellison.
So is Linus Torvalds.
See the pattern yet?
Yep, I'll take my chances with the brilliant asshole.
you miss the point, whining "that's not acceptable!" won't stop a rapist. a bullet in the head, on the other hand, will.
...he only uses "extreme" language when (1) the person he's addressing did something really stupid ("merely stupid" isn't enough) and (2) that person really should have known better (so he doesn't tend to do this to strangers, only people he's well acquainted with, and has some trust in). He doesn't just call people names, he makes detailed technical arguments which happen to be decorated with er, expressive language.
Sometimes this is true. Sometimes he lets fly an abusive knee jerk reaction before he knows the facts, and later admits it saying something along the lines "that's just the way I am, get used to it" instead of apologizing to the target who was often correct. I've seen it happen repeatedly and since 1998.
I have no problem with LKML being rough and tumble with no manners. Just don't pretend every word out of Linus' mouth is a gem of logic and justice.
'No one has the unfettered right to abuse others in whatever manner they see fit."
To the contrary, since you are clearly abusing the word abuse, using your definition (where simply speaking to you like an adult is considered abuse) everyone has the right to do that. Your remedy, if you dislike it, is to not listen to us.
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So why does he need to yell publicly at this person who screwed up, why not do the yelling in private? The only reason I can think is that he wants to embarrass or humiliate the person, and possibly send out warnings/intimidations to tohers, and that's dickish. The alternate choice of screaming in private means that the developer knows about the mistake, fully understands what Linus wants, but gets to maintain face; in public have a less abusive post about how things need to be revised and please do more testing in the future before committing (which still lets people who are smart figure out who it was that screwed up).
If my boss upbraided me in public for something like that in the same manner that Linus does, then I would know that it is time to get the resume up to date because I'm either going to get fired very soon or else it will be too uncomfortable to continue working there.
What's wrong here is that it requires all developers there have very thick skins. You can be the perfect developer for the kernel in all ways except for having a thin skin, which means you won't fit into that club and shouldn't even try (take those skills somewhere with a more modern approach to management). Open source absolutely has a bad boy image attached to it, and I think many of the developers prefer it that way and so they don't want to change.
re:
Honest and direct: "This is not good enough. The logic is flawed and the code is sloppy. Go back and do it again".
Reply: "Why do you get to decide. I want another opinion. My logic is fine and the code is as good as what is already there. No, I think I'll just go around you and convince another maintainer that the code should be accepted as is."
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
But what if the kernel could be even better that it is now if the mailing list used more respect and had less cursing? Maybe there are some really awesome developers who just can't deal with that environment? How many ex kernel devs are there, maybe some of them decided it was just too much stress to deal with?
sounds exactly both of my ex-wives....
never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
Nothing at all. That is just the "PC Card" that is played whenever rude or abusive people don't like to be told they are acting like wanton children. It's their excuse to act as rude as they like for the sake of the attention it brings them.
Back when I was in college, the concept was known as Political Correctness, Multi-ethnic Cohesiveness, and Inclusiveness Actions, which people attempted to encourage in business settings. It got shortened to "PC Card" in the early 2000's. :)
Slashdotter, ID #101. UIDs are in binary, right?
Rough office. If a lead acted that way at my work, they'd just be replaced with a professional.
I do think that we'd agree that professionalism is a good thing.
Why? Linus has an excellent point, that often "professionalism" is an excuse to be abusive, just with a prettier veneer.
I personally prefer generally to communicate "professionally", but I'm also not dealing with something as important as the Lunix kernel. The greater degree of importance something has in the world, the more blunt I feel everyone is allowed to be and in fact is of benefit.
Also Linus comes from a culture that is more direct, and I don't see anything wrong with a project adopting the cultural attitudes of the leader.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
There's nothing sensible about being a drama queen!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
When exactly did this western culture of extreme niceness happen? I find it incredibly confusing when I look at popular media and see violence and intimidation and power struggles and then in mass news and business media we're all told its only correct to be nice and polite and easy going with each other. Like all things, I think there should be limits to rude and violent behaviour in the workplace, but this ignorant zero tolerance stuff just makes people fake as Linus says, and improves nothing but the sense of well-being of those who suck.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
If there was a decline in quality or they needed extra talent I'm sure that they'd probably reassess but that doesn't seem to be the case. Like so many others have said, he only gets rough on people he knows and who should really have known better. And as a project lead myself (tiny team, tiny project compared to the Linux kernel), what about the lead's stress? I've had to deal with users being profoundly (let's be kind) dense and completely unable to focus on the most in-your-face things but I take a few deep breaths and calm down before I reply because they're users, they don't/shouldn't know better, it's not their job and it's their first time using my system. But if a long-time contributor who should really have known better pushed code that broke something, then that dude's gonna have it. And, do keep in mind, we've seen some mild and public outbursts from the guy who is managing this huge freaking project, compared to what goes on in private on similarly sized organizations, I'm willing to bet that Linux will come off as the mild mannered one.
None of this matters though since the Linux kernel is flourishing, there simply isn't a problem to fix.
From one of the more recent things he engaged his primary flame-cannon over, the person he aimed it at did screw up pretty badly and for no apparent reason (I mean, seriously, submitting code that you don't know if it works and you admit is probably not necessary? Don't do that).
So no, I don't think he's a dick for the sake of being a dick - he's a dick because people shouldn't be submitting things that are broken and that kind of person deserves to be told off.
As the main target for said outburst, it was definitely an epic f*ckup on my part. When I got the email, I pretty much chuckled and then said I need to do some damage control. I was not in any way offended. Linus later said:
For example, my latest cursing explosion was for the x86 maintainers, and it comes from the fact that I *know* they know to do better. The x86 tip pulls have generally been through way more testing than most other pulls I get (not just compiling, but even booting randconfigs etc). So when an x86 pull request comes in that clearly missed that expected level of quality, I go to town.
That is part of why I don't get offended when Linus curses at me.
I've met plenty of women in business who throw around more verbal weight than any man. I've watched men leave rooms verbally emasculated by a powerful and determined woman's speech. If you said he was a misogynist who continually refers to female genitals as his only insult of choice, you might have a point. Being verbally abusive in general though is certainly not the sole territory of men.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
If you do the yelling in private, other people will repeat the same mistake. Basic fact of human nature: we learn best from other people being made an example of.
So, responding to the mistake "publicly" (and keep in mind that far more people read Slashdot than the LKML) is the best way of preventing future mistakes. Whether or not yelling is necessarily the best way of responding is another matter entirely, and obviously is target-dependent. (Based on comments on the mailing list, yelling appears to be reserved for people who really, really should know better. People who don't necessarily know better, or people who actually ask first - like they should - don't get yelled at.)
Really, what this boils down to is that if you're not sure if you're doing the right thing, you should ask first rather than going all cowboy-style and screwing things up. "It's better to ask forgiveness than permission" should not be the guiding principle of, well, anyone who isn't ready to set out on their own anyway.
Calling him names in a retort about verbal abuse ... +1 for irony.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Do what works. Is it not working? Looks like it is. Keep it up.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Don't whine if people do and development slows.
You might want some people from Intel in on the kernel development. They have some of the best in the business at optimization. If you want to tell them all off that's your prerogative, but don't then cry if they say "Ok, we will leave."
Shoot generalizing all women that way? It is almost sexist.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
When being nice becomes more important than being right, reality is optional.
When having everyone get along is more important than promoting the best and booting the worst, expect a loss of quality spiraling out of control.
Futurist Traditionalism
...when you attempt to join a community you either abide by the rules and customs of that community or else you leave and go elsewhere.
Exactly. Sure, Linus may have a useful vocabulary of Anglo-Saxon terminology, but given how much communication he actually has to do in his line of work, it is probably more surprising how little he uses it.
On the comparatively few occasions when someone has done something outrageously wrong or stupid, he is quite forceful in his expression, but his arguments are invariably detailed in their reasoning. It's hardly his fault that the media latch on to these dialogues and blow them out of proportion.
No, I think this could be the kind of vulgarity that some people wouldn't want to tolerate. And I obviously don't know all women but I do know some women and the ones I know would have ripped Linus' a new one in a right-back-at-you witty retort as would be the appropriate response to such a comment -- or just not care at all and write it off as a blunt dude just being blunt. And the same can be said for most of the men I know too btw, I don't see anatomy having anything to do with the situation.
Like the "you must tolerate my gratuitous abuse because I am more important than you" 'tude?
That would be pretty dickish, but I don't think it's happening here. In particular, "gratuitous": Linux is using strong language as a communication tool, not gratuitously. Also, "tolerate": he's outright encouraged Sarah to rage back at him if she thinks she's in the right, rather than meekly tolerating it - which means that "because I am more than important than you" can't be the motive.
Having worked in an office of over 30 women and only one other man, I vouch for this.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
The Belmont Study provides profound guidance on this topic.
http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/policy/belmont.html#xrespect
Human beings have a fundamental ethical duty to treat each other with respect.
When this breaks down all sorts of horrors follow. The Belmont Study arose from some situations where lack of respect and lack of autonomy were coincidental.
What Linus is doing is unethical. While the individuals he is treating this way are not likely to suffer significantly because they generally have good autonomy, it is still unethical.
No; as you yield ground they take it, until everything but smiling and nodding and agreeing with them is considered "being a dick".
I have often seen this same "enforced politeness" tried on other mailing lists, and the result is always the same. The "wizards" soon migrate somewhere else
Then wish them well and send them on their way.
I find your implied association between smart people who get useful things done and rude people who can't act like adults unlikely. I know plenty of smart people, and the overwhelming majority of them would prefer to work with others in civilised fashion. Sure, when people are passionate about something then occasionally someone might cross the line, but then they apologise and everyone carries on.
I know plenty of blustery people as well, and a lot of them bluster to cover the fact that they aren't nearly as smart or valuable as they would like everyone else to believe. As with any bad apple, the best management decision for the project as a whole is usually to fire such people at the earliest opportunity rather than let them contaminate things any further or dig in any deeper.
Sometimes doing that will hurt in the short term, but no-one is irreplaceable. Once the bad ones are out of the way you can get on with bringing in other smart people to replace them. That can now include all the smart people you couldn't bring in before because they had no interest in working in a hostile environment and, being smart, they had plenty of other choices.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
No, in fact double and triple my in with LINUS.
The only time I have seen him get angry is over stupid engineering. _I_ get angry over stupid engineering.
If you want nice engineering, tell that chix to go and work for Microsoft and their shitty operating system.
Have a NICE time.
I want hard core correct engineering by meritocracy, not some jackass MBA or CS type academic who has been in the classroom too long.
-Hack
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
...what are they going to do? Fire him?
/* No Comment */
What if he does? Besides, he is talking like this to his peers. Not to his mother or the neighbors.
Maybe it is acceptable in his culture. In france people swaer much more than in the US. That always made me saw americans as hypocrite. They do not say what is on their mind but what is politically correct to say.
Politeness is mostly useless PR that nobody buys. I prefer hearing "That makes no fucking sense" than "This could use some more explanation."
They do tend to not do this in public a lot. Maybe this language comes out into the board room or when the CEO's office door is closed though. Even then this behavior is restricted to the highest levels, since lower and mid level managers are rarely allowed to act this way for very long.
If you're a n00b who posts something stupid on LKML, you are not going to get massive old-school-Usenet-style flames.
I wonder how many n00bs never get that far, because they see how the leader of the community treats others and decide to go do something else instead. Maybe Linus does personally know the recipients of his infamous rants, but on a high-profile public forum not everyone watching might realise that.
If you walked into an office for a job interview, and the first thing you saw was some management type openly berating a subordinate, what tone would that set before you even started the discussion you were there for? Some conversations are best held privately, as much for the benefit of the community as for the participants themselves.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I don't think anyone said the politeness had to be enforced. It would be nice if some people could just consider it as one of the possible alternatives.
For one, the Linux kernel probably has the fastest development rate than any other kernel out there.
For another, given that it is the kernel, I think it is good for people mucking about with it to be scared. There should be *very* compelling reason to change the status quo in kernel land before any attempt is made.
In therms of a flame ware improving a product, I think it is often better than the alternative. It's better to hash it all out, for better or worse, than sidestep discussion for fear of hurt feelings. I've seen the alternative, projects where people are more politicking than getting work done. Conversation fleshed out by more sycophants than meaningful discussion. Passive aggressive discussions where you just aren't sure what is really under the surface.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
...because he's been very effective about handling kernel development. The real problem is that other, lesser people, think that he's a good example to follow, so you end up with petty nobodies who emulate Torvalds' abusiveness (albeit generally directed towards new people asking reasonable questions, rather than experienced developers) but utterly lack his vision, talent, and leadership skills. Torvalds may be an asset to his project, but most of the people who attempt to emulate him are not.
If you act like an ass because you think that it's okay since Linus Torvalds does it, chances are you're a net drain on whatever project(s) you're involved with.
To be pedantic, the only thing that needs regulating (technically, enforcement) in a free market is the core non-compulsory principle. All exchanges in a free market *must* be voluntary. That means no fraud, no theft, no murder, no property-damage, etc... All the things that are already illegal without so-called market regulations.
Dominant players capture free markets by appropriating the compulsory powers of government, which is the entity with a legal monopoly on force. It can seize your land and hand it to someone, take your money and distribute it to their favoured lobbyists, write regulations that crush emerging competition, etc. You honestly think that corporations the size of say GE exist merely because people willingly buy whatever they are selling? Most of what they sell is paid for by government taxes and people pay those because they're not too keen on the consequences of doing otherwise. The irony is that we handed the government power to do such things in the hopes that it would protect us from abusive corporations. Give politicians more power, see them sell it to the highest bidder, it's really that simple.
At this point, we've given them power to give themselves more power and we wonder why it keeps getting worse. They can't even go broke, they issue their own currency (issue treasury bonds, have the central bank buy 'em). And in the case of the US, they can bomb the shit out of (or simply intimidate) anyone who refuses to take that money at face value.
Mind the frickin' laser...
It is important in a creative-technical environment. To be creative you need to be comfortable and many people will be very uncomfortable if they hear a lot of verbal abuse going on, or are worried knowing that any mistake will result in a tirade, or are just tired of the non stop use of "fucking" as the only adjective and adverb ever used. Sure, if it's rare occasions that you're down right rude then that's ok, but this sort of behavior is often regular and ongoing.
Hell, now racism is expressed in compliments. "He's so well spoken..."
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
No, the pc card is played by people who think it's the responsibility of others to prop up their own, personal code of ethics/behavior, or political tolerance bounding box.
Suomalaiset eivÃt syà Ãidit ja lapset.
I look forward to "The Inclusive, Supportive, Non-threatening Space and the Bazaar".
the PC pantywaists haven't gotten to yet? they show up everywhere, now, demanding every interaction revert to a kindergarten level G rating, because, to them, feelings matter more than direct, clear communication.. "OK everyone! time to fill each other's buckets with love!" Often, they show up acting like they're oldschool, expecting everyone to cater to their whims, when they're newbs who haven't done anything. Fuck them. Let linus swear if he wants to, along with the rest of the people who get work done. The only thing that is supposed to matter is technical correctness, not political correctness. If she gets butthurt over that, she doesn't have the stomach for technical work. Why? She's still running to mommy when someone's words upset her. She's an equal, supposedly, so she should've already learned to handle vocabulary that most boys learn by age 13.
Everyone is acting so overconcerned about everyone else's feelings these days that it comes across as fake and smarmy. It's fake because these people don't really care about the reason the gathering exists, they just want a lead in to push their brand of identity politics in order to gain control of the social dynamics. No, doing this does not make her more 'sophisticated', 'caring', or 'professional'. It just makes her sound like a tween princess demanding her entitlement.
But using manipulative emotionally-loaded words in public to garner support among a core peer group while marginalising the recipient is how females fight.
Note that she didn't email Linux directly to express her point; she emailed the entire list. This was an exercise in "relational aggression"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_aggression
Guys aren't wired to have these conflicts. The only way to win this contest is to not play, which is what Linus appears to be doing.
Having worked in offices with > 100 men and
* and by BS I obviously mean Bigoted Shit.
It's possible to be blunt without being abusive or making verbal threats. "Professional" does not have to mean "non-confrontational". What Linus seems to do is use a bazooka when a handgun would suffice, without any regard for collateral damage.
If they are willing to receive a punch in the nose for being so.
Not being a dick != political correctness
No... but you really can't expect normative social behavior from an aspie, particularly after he's been the effective king of a feudal society for about 22 years now. Lieutenants who are effectively feudal lords who have sworn fealty to the king, it's a classic mutual security game.
The biggest problem this arrangement has is ... it works. It doesn't work as well as other mutual security arrangements, such as globocop, but it can be successful, particularly for volunteer organizations.
One property of the arrangement, however, is that feudal lords build walls between their fiefdoms. This makes it very hard to change anything that requires crossing multiple fiefdom boundaries, so if you want to change an API, a globocop arrangement is more conducive to negotiating API contracts (think of it as agreeing on diverting the location of a stream crossing between neighbors). Linux demonstrates similar problems.
Either way, unless there is someone elected to filter the comments (a majordomo), the king is going to say whatever the king wants to say.
Drive Me Crazy - Melissa Joan Hart.
If it's worth doing, it's worth doing for money.
Who cares? It's their project, not yours. It's not your business to maximize the number of developers they have.
Those all have something in common: those being harmed don't have the choice to walk away. If you don't like the way Linus runs his software project, don't join the project. Since it's open source, you can even fork it.
There's something fundamentally wrong with your sense of morality if you think that voluntary associations of people have to conform to some global standard of conduct. Some people may like screaming obscenities at each other and develop software while they are doing it. Some people like whipping each other while having sex. It's none of your business.
Linus explained the reason he does this once (can't find the video). If communication is all done through writing, sometimes the subtleties and tone of a statement are missed.
There is a certain type of kernel programmer who is not particularly emotionally intelligent or socially lucid (but super smart). Telling that type of programmer "That's a interesting way of doing it, but....." or that "your code needs improving" may not register as as "No" and will lead to a lot of wasted effort.
Linus appears to use abrasive language as a crutch and as a way to reduced the numbers of words he has to write. I doubt he has actual anger problems (not that i know him). It's just a technique.
Yeah, you must be right.
Yeah, obviously she's a pretender. She's never done anything of note, and is just playing up the "oh poor me, i'm just a porr widdle girl somebody save me!" card. Clearly she's just "damseling." She feels like she hasn't accomplished enough, and is trying to take a shortcut to success. You can tell, because she has that double X chromosome condition.
Friend, I dare say that she's done more for the Linux operating system than anybody else responding here in this comment thread. Perhaps it's time that Linus sits up and realize that he's alienating the very people who are helping him keep the ship afloat with his abusive outbursts.
She's playing a "my feelings are hurt" routine with a possibly implied "you better watch out because I'm a woman". Glancing at her google+, it looks like she is probably a feminist..and that's what these people do: they're always looking to push their politics and pc codes of conduct onto everyone else involved in the things they are. This is usually done by playing the victim role and hoping white knights in the group will save this 'damsel' in 'distress,' by doing her dirty work for her. She says on google+ that she'll "happily stand alone", and then suggests you're welcome to join her. Later in the thread, she says
I've been through verbal abuse before. I won't take that shit from you,or any of the other Linux kernel developers. Tell me, politely, what I have done wrong, and I will fix it. You don't need to SHOUT, call me names, or tell me to SHUT THE FUCK UP! I'm not the only one that won't take verbal abuse. Stop abusing your developers.
Seems like linus is smart enough to see this for what it is. People like this just want attention and notoriety, usually because they have none in the relevant subjects the forum was created for in the first place. Snarky comments like "scared to talk to a girl kernel
developer" make this quite clear (read the thread). Apparently, it's ok for her to resort to ad hominem while she complains about Linus' behavior. Typical feminist hamster mentality..
This is the problem with "political correctness":
The act of trying to avoid being offensive, is, in and of itself, offensive to some people.
To whit, Linus Torvalds finds it offensive. QED.
This means that political correctness is fundementally faulted at its very conception, and can never be satisfied.
In the instances of verbal slurs, the creation of "inoffensive surrogates", as often tendered by political correctness advocates, simply shift the problem and do NOTHING to fix it. Take for instance, calling somebody stupid, vs calling them "mentally challenged". They mean the same thing, and are equally offensive.
Same with monikers for race; for instance, people with very dark skin of african origin:
Negro->colored->black->"african american"
The fact of the matter, is that using *any* term to draw attention to the skin color of a person, to distinguish a racially profiled stereotype, is equally offensive.
To whit,
"The prefferential treatment of african americans in the college entrance exams has led to a sharp decline in student achievement scores."
The sentence is just as offensive if you use "colored", "black", or any other colorful descriptor.
The same is true of descriptors for men who like to bang other men.
"Effeminate"->'poofter'->queer->gay->"homosexual male"
It isn't the words you say, it is the way you say them, that causes offense, but the PC crowd never gets this, and instead just comandeers word after word, after word, in its relentless and futile attempt to eradicate the intent behind those words. The result is that previously benign clinical terms like "homosexual" start to get lurid connotations, when previously they were absolved from those implications, because of words like "faggot". Deleting "faggot" from the dictionary does not make everyone stop harboring negative views about homosexual males. All it does is make a previousy useful word no longer useful, as all the malign implication of the slur gets transferred.
I would much rather have people shout about "faggots", and expose just what kind of people they are by its use, than have perfectly useful terms like "homosexual" corrupted, because of a fundamentally faulted worldview gone wild.
So, I side with Torvalds with this issue. Is his use of profanity reasonable? Probably not. Is his argument about why he needs to be allowed to use profanity when he feels necessary, perfectly rational and well founded? Absolutely.
Profanity is intended to convey beligerance. Deleting profanity does not make people have to resort to civility, it makes them coopt civilized language for profane use. Profanity serves a valid role in human communication. Stop trying to delete it. You can't.
Let's see what horrible thing Linus said to set this off:
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 08:22:27 -0700, Linus wrote:
Greg, the reason you get a lot of stable patches seems to be that you make it easy to act as a door-mat. Clearly at least some people say "I know this patch isn't important enough to send to Linus, but I know Greg will silently accept it after the fact, so I'll just wait and mark it for stable".
You may need to learn to shout at people.
People who judge books by their cover don't deserve to benefit from their contents.
A penny saved is a penny earned, you trite asshole.
Hey, I'm not being a dick, it's all relative.
So Linux kernel people are bigoted, or do women have something more to contribute to society other than staying home waiting for their husbands to come home?
What is amusing is how when someone new asks if it's possible to keep a civil tone, it's perceived as demanding. Such touchy sensibilities!
Linus isn't a dick, he's just over the top sometimes. This is like going into a bar for bikers and complaining that they're being mean. It's just how they are. That said, I don't really think kdev should have its own closed-off culture you need to learn to participate. If you're trying to attract devs, having a so-called "circlejerk" that comes off as rude is counter-productive to that goal and will only drive people away.
There's a difference between "not being professional" and "being a dick", and clearly good ol' Linus doesn't understand it. I don't wear a suit and a tie to go about my daily business, yet somehow I manage not to be an obnoxious git to people I disagree with.
If you act like a jerk, people are not going to pay attention to any arguments you have, they're going to remember you acting like a jerk.
May the strong soar like an unburdened eagle and the weak wilt like the pansies they are.. -- Linus Torvalds
-
The Linux kernel can absolutely use new developers. The trick is to find a small piece of it and learn about it and start fixing bugs. Usually there's a list of things that need to be dealt with and lots of them are simple enough for even a new developer to deal with its just that nobody has taken the time to do it yet.
Most developers don't normally work with Linus--they work with the maintainer for a subsystem or a driver.
That's precisely it.
A few years ago a friend used the term "retards" in reference to MD/MR people. I and another of our friend stopped him and started to explain why he shouldn't do that.
He got angry and started yelling "I'm not going to be all politically correct!" and I said to him "I'm not talking about being politically correct, I'm talking about not being an asshole."
Political correctness USED TO BE what we call common courtesy. There's a world of difference between the thought police and the pointless regulation of the minutiae of every day speech versus just plain not being an asshole.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I think you have to look at the typical mindset of a typical dev. A dev, essentially, expresses themselves, or imposes their will by writing code. When you bloat code with a bunch of unnecessary crap, it tends to be ridiculed. A good dev is focused on getting their desired result as efficiently and effectively as possible. It's not surprising that would bleed over to other areas of their life.
Political correctness and 'professionalism' in the corporate sense is not efficient, rarely is it effective, and it's certainly a bloat on the brain procs. It's not terribly surprising that a good number of devs eschew it, or practice the bare minimum possible (or that they can tolerate, anyway).
That's the way the community is, and if you're not capable of functioning like that and can't adapt, then you shouldn't be joining the community. You should go off and do your own thing, with other like minded people if desired. That is, after all, what Linus did.
While the Linux kernel has cetainly taken on something of a life of it's own, it hasn't quite reached the level of a corporate environment where the head of the table can be ousted by the latercomers. Linus runs his house like Linus wants to run his house, and I think it's in bad taste to criticize him for it.
Linus doesn't really meet my definition of 'a dick'.
He's a fuzzy little kitten compared to Theo de Raat.
I'm not offended by abusive language but if I was too offended, I wouldn't join a volunteer organization where I was subjected to such language.
That said, my view of Linus overall is reduced by his apparent inability to express himself effectively and influence without using abusive language.
My view of Jobs was much reduced by his bullying of his employees - it was probably his right to do so, but bullying just isn't effective. It's more effective to explain calmly and clearly what the employee is doing incorrectly and what the correct behavior is. If a person isn't smart enough to understand a calm explanation, you don't want them working for you and you should just fire/demote/transfer them - bullying won't solve the problem.
Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading
Sarah Sharp is not a new person on LKML. She's the USB3 host controller maintainer. She's been there for a while, and she totally overreacted. Linus' original message was a tongue-in-cheek one talking about Greg Kroah-Hartman (who is a fairly large guy while Linus is not):
"Have you guys *seen* Greg? The guy is a freakish giant. He *should* scare you. He might squish you without ever even noticing."
Sarah's reaction was, "Seriously, guys? Is this what we need in order to get improve -stable? Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and violence..."
Anyone who takes Linus' comments as a serious suggestion needs their head examined. It was *clearly* meant as a joke.
The linux kernel community as a whole is not abusive. There are a small number of people who could stand to moderate their tone. I would actually not put Linus in this camp, on the rare occasions that he blows up at someone there has generally been significant provocation.
If you're interested, hook up with the kernel janitors project, start looking around for bugs that have been languishing on the to-do list for a long time, find something that interests you and contact the maintainer.
There are core areas of the kernel that are probably not a good place to jump right in (process scheduler, filesystems, memory management, etc.). But there's lot's to be done around the edges.
I think Occam's Razor can be applied here. The world cannot be simple because there are so many opportunities for individuals to introduce complexity.
Yet also a fair statement. After all, when you attempt to join a community you either abide by the rules and customs of that community or else you leave and go elsewhere. You do not demand that community change to meet your world view.
It's not a community, it's a software development project. OK, one can talk about a developer "community", but as soon as that "community" starts having rules and customs not directly linked to the development of the software in question, it becomes something else, especially if the rules and customs can be perceived as antithetical to the development process. The Linux kernel development team are not a masonic lodge!
You never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough. - Blake
I believe you're making an important distinction that many people aren't. There's a difference between being politically correct and being respectful. You can swear like a sailor and still be respectful and you can also speak in polite terms and be a disrespectful asshole. Dropping an f-bomb every now and again isn't the problem...it's a lack of respect and common decency.
Nice. so much for the preview then...
In the 3.10 release there were roughly 13500 changesets committed in 2 months. During that time there were 34000 messages posted to LKML. Given the publicity over this one message thread, the absolute number of comments with any contentious language must be low otherwise there would have been more of them mentioned.
Given those numbers, the changes of a casual developer being the recipient of an unprofessional comment is exceedingly small.
Publicly, on LKML. I was a young developer at the time. The world didn't come to an end, I didn't get flamed. We had a rational discussion about the technical issues.
Generally when Linus uses attention-getting language it is because he's trying to get attention. Typically there has been more than one instance of bad behaviour and the person involved has not responded to more subtle messages.
Reason: Trolls. I'm pretty sure kernel would be written in perl if trolls had their way. It's just amazing how much pressure there is in the highvolume opensource projects. It takes 2 loud persons to cause pressure to a project in the mailing list. Popular projects have lots more trolls than real people. Rude is necessary in this environment. Just reading the mailing list is a pain.
Then trying to control the trolls to build big software that always need to work. It becomes impossible over the email after project size is more than 10 people. I don't understand how linus can handle kernel. It must be real pain in the ass.
In the 3.10 release cycle (2 months) there were 34000 messages posted to the kernel mailing list. A small number of them had arguably abusive language, and in some of those cases it may have been unwarranted. Usually it's between people that know each other and are expected to know better because they're experienced.
Any given novice developer is very likely not going to get random abuse hurled at them. Most maintainers are easy to deal with, I've contacted quite a few of them over the years.
This must be a new definition of the word "better" that I wasn't previously aware of.
I don't know about you, but if I'd led Steve Jobs' life, I'd consider my life a failure. I'd have wished that I'd spent less time gouging every last penny out of my suppliers and destroying open platforms, and more time with my family.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Do you follow LKML (all 15K messages/month)? If you only pay attention to the messages that get covered on Slashdot then you're going to have a pretty warped view of how he communicates.
The majority of the time Linus is direct but not abusive. On the rare occasions that he uses what could be called abusive language there is usually a recurring problem and more subtle means of communication have not been effective.
Actually. I posted a support-style stupid question on LKML once, and got nothing but polite replies. Stupid question, but still: https://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/17/108
-- Linux user #369862
I've seen on /. so many times that people are complaining about how Linus is being a jerk... now a woman says it so 90% of the comments are suddenly pro-Linus. This is even worse than calling a Photoshop replacement 'gimp' and then wondering why Linux hasn't been adopted more by the general public. Do as you like, but this is the sort of crap that causes the rest of the world to walk away.
Linus is also hilarious when he flames someone. Instead of taking sides, I prefer to recognize that she's perfectly within her rights to request more polite conversation. I think we can agree, she KNEW Linus wouldn't react with kittens and happiness. But polite dialog is worth striving for.
This doesn't have to be about sexism. Is politeness good? Yes. Is Linus often hilariously bunt? Yes. I think we can leave it to the grownups -- meaning the people involved -- to decide under what guidelines their own Listsrv is going to be run.
Sometimes people just get tired, fatigued, angry to death. Happens all the time, it can hit anyone. I found kinda nonsense all the 3.11 version naming and awfully bad tasting the splash logo showing a windows related image. My guess is that Linus could be going though some hard personal struggles, a difficult life phase. Its bad, its dangerous, but someone has to understand: it can happen. Linus is one of a kind, yet still human, so, Sarah has a point. THE MAN deserves some time to think over all that anger and turn back to the old good bad attitude he is famous for and that helped leading to so many developers great work and accomplishment.
Occam Razor is not exactly a law of physics, do you know? And even if it was it is related to explaining causes of specific phenomena not to explaining complex social systems. Einstein have a very good quote about this: "Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler.".
Oversimplifying models is a recipe to catastrophic failure, as you will find out sooner or later with your attitude. Good luck!
And equally importantly, not everybody has to like you, or necessarily think they have to be liked by you. OK?
Sarah Sharp may be in need of harmony, or in need of what she perceives as harmony, but is just downright and plainly wrong in wanting to enforce her concept of harmony upon an entire developer community. And with the sentence quoted above, Linus is making that pretty clear.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
I don't understand... are you vehemently agreeing with me?
And those people who get so upset should consider a career change, or perhaps working in the creative-technical department of children's toys.
People should feel uncomfortable about making a mistake. The purpose of the language is to make them uncomfortable. If being publicly embarrassed about code that you enter makes you think twice or three times about the quality then I'm all for it.
be thankful he isn't cursing them in finnish! :) now thats a mean language. english is so lame in comparison :)
but i love that man he's an inspiration
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137394282220615&w=2
relevant part: "But whenever I need to send a patch to him, I tend to be more careful not to make mistakes."
If Linus wasn't so strict he would not be more careful to make mistakes. If he would, he wouldn't write this.
See the difference ?
For me, the softer the environment is, the bigger chance i'm gonna make a mistake.
That's simply not true.
No, when the black guy gets a seat in the boardroom, he still needs to wear a suit and tie, not a hoodie.
Depends on the board room. There are plenty of rich black fold wearing hoodies in the 'board rooms' of their businesses, such as record labels.
No they didn't force crusty old white men to wear hoodies, but when its run by like minded people, the rules change and hoodies are the norm.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Sad to say, I've become very wary of female managers and especially female executives. The process for selecting females for these positions appears to be very finely tuned for identifying and promoting only the most shallow, ambitious, and scheming ones. This is not the fault of these women, but rather of a mindset that views the occasional bit of compassionate behaviour as a sign of strength in males (see, you're in a position that's sufficiently secure so that you can afford to give the other guy a break) and as a sign of weakness in females (tsk, tsk, you're letting those female emotions get in the way and trying to mother them again, are you?).
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
LKML is essentially a private message board, where every email is almost a PM, it has been for ages.
I'd say Linus has given and proven enough so as everyone accept his moods, {language|work}style, way of thinking and doing things, and whatever else. I don't care if he yells at people who he disagrees with, in fact I like it, since most of the time he is just right. Think about that as a filter. The great ones will maybe respond in a similar manner but they'll get the message and avoid such events in the future, the lesser ones will just take offence and leave - which will be better for all of us in the long run.
:P
Anyway, I think exactly this kind of offtopic, time wasting and totally irrelevant discussions (i.e. the discussion in question about his 'violence') are the ones which he'll dislike the most. Especially on a kernel dev mailing list.
Professionalism doesn't always mean you behave like saints. In my book, professionalism equals good results and good performance, which, if present, will help to tolerate most other issues. In case of Linus it certainly does.
So get the f*ck of his lawn and get working
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Sudo make me fucking sandwich! rm /~linus pickles!
Torvalds is the GInger Baker of computing. Very, very good at the core thing he does, an absolutely atrocious human being in every other way.
The question is whether you value part A over part B or not, I guess.
Like the "you must tolerate my gratuitous abuse because I am more important than you" 'tude?
No. It's not gratuitous abuse, it isn't show of power, and Linus also doesn't throw chairs at people.
He just calls stupid ideas stupid ideas. Not "unfortunate" or "needs improvement" but "stupid". And while one might call him opinionated, he usually backs his positions up with an argument and reasons for it. And I strongly assume he would accept his own medicine back, as long as it is well reasoned and not just someone shouting "*fucking* I won't be a nice girl anymore"
It might be a cultural thing. A well educated American who thinks that you're an idiot won't tell you, but smile at you. Being frank is low-class.
The nice Midwesterners are the worst. The strongest disapproval they can amount to is "oh, that's different" or "interesting". Bostonians on the other hand are seen as rude. But while they might shout at you, they'd also stop their car at the pedestrian crossing, swearing if you don't cross fast enough. In Minneapolis, they'd smile at you while they run you over. I for once rather had the "rude" guy.
WTF - who upvoted EACH AND EVERY SINGLE POST here? The percentage of posts =2 is 1%.
This site's voting system needs improvement. Definitely DO ONT upvote emotional posts without any rational part. DO NOT upvote untrue statements. For example, Linus only OCCASIONALLY resorts to "strong" statements, so those who portrait him as a kind of screaming manager a la Microsoft's Balmer are just liars out for emotional votes. ESPECIALLY if there's an emotional topic, upvote only on-topic an NON-EMOTIONAL posts.
PS: My caps are NOT "screaming", I speak accentuated not loud. Think flat-tone poem vs. accentuated poem recitation. I don't know how else to bring the accentuated parts onto the screen in a "flat" font.
Honey Badger don't care. Honey Badger don't give a shit.
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
I would buy the t-shirt.
I love when people like you compare your small project to the linux kernel. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Period.
He's always been that way, but no one on the internet during those times cared about feelings over getting the job done.
He didn't simply tell her to fuck off, he explained why 'acting professional' is itself a fallacy. That is taking it seriously.
I can relate to him. I have several free projects and basically if you want to control my behaviour, you can pay me for it. As long as I'm giving you the results of my work for free, you get to put up with whatever attitude I need to get it done.
There's no such thing as a free lunch.
On the other hand, I can also relate to those who are asking for some moderation, and sometimes I go beyond what was necessary. Having someone to remind you to keep it civil every now and then helps not getting lost entirely.
That someone just needs to understand that he/she is a counterweight and the end result will be somewhere in the middle, not where s/he's pulling it to.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
She didn't ask anyone to be nice, she just asked that they try and make their point without verbal abuse or physical threats. That doesn't seem too extreme a request.
who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the humanity to pray for the 1 sinner that needed it most? ~Mark Twain
Yours is not a fair statement. She’s been contributing to the Linux kernel for (as far as I can tell after a quick Google) 5 years or more. She’s not ‘attempting to join [the] community’; she’s already part of the community.
And she’s attempting to change it from within. Nothing, ipso facto, wrong with that.
30 Linux Kernel Developers in 30 Weeks: Sarah Sharp <<-- describes her involvement with kernel in 2007.
One of the most insightful posts I've read in awhile!
I think that's slightly different, because it mainly dealt with two groups of people (blacks and women) who weren't trying to join a community, they were already part of it through historical action on the part of others (blacks were mainly forcibly taken from their own communities and could not return, women had been subjugated for thousands of years within their community).
Except this is not IBM or Oracle. These people are not hired by Linus. It's not a private company, secrecy and private emails from the boss to the coworkers are better left to redhat and IBM who actually hires the people that Linus is sometimes shaming.
c++;
IMHO the main issue is that on one hand we have the "PC" team that will say things like:
This is a very interesting idea => Meaning I hate you and am planning your downfall how dare you rock the boat and undermine my hierachical position.
Let's agree to disagree => Go fuck yourself, ain't gona happen, you are probably right, but I'm higher in the pecking order and no way am I going to let a good idea that is not mine happen.
We need somebody very dynamic => we need somebody younger than I am, preferably of the same gender as me and the same of a similar school.
s/he is very technical => I got no clue what s/he's saying and we should not give that person any power of desicion or responsibility...
etc..
And the "Non-PC" team that tend to say things like:
I know that this is not a popular opinion to express : but everybody knows (or don't you agree that/I know from sure sources/You just have to look at the statistics/...) that
So I hope that the outcome of any LKML meeting on this subject will be:
- It is ok to express your feeling and opinions even with very expressive language, and it is much better than being an hypocrite hiding behind weasel words
- it is not ok to do any kind of adhominem attacks so if you actually fear and despise somebody because that sentient being has the combination of qualifier you find the most insufferable, you are not obliged to invide that person to drink tea with your old mum, but you cannot use this as a base for communication.
And you should think about escalading, try "I'm slightly irritated", before "your code is bloody shit you fucking moron...".
PC was not invented to make sure people understand each other, but to provide plausible deniability in case of a trial... ... it does not make it "polite"...
so "we ain't hight no green polka dottet people cuz their lazy stupid idiots" becomes "we are an equal opportunity employers, and welcome more minority in our familly, and look forward to any minority candidate who is able to meet our very high standards"
Is is not "Political incorrectness" but stupid, and not funny...
If she cannot stand the heat she should grow some, although still probably sexist does not imply that she would have a "natural place" that would be the kitchen.
The smart comment would be: if Sarah cannot stand the heat she should think of the alternative, and for example compare:
We very much regret to announce you that we will have to let you go, and would like to use this opportunity to thank you for all your contributions to the project
with
Your code stinks you should read it before even thinking of submitting your trash to the trunk, I'm seriously thinking of linking your git to rm
You can survive the second, and it convey a message that makes it easier to avoid the first...
There is not always somewhere else to go, or at least the cost of not being there might be too high.
And refusing to change because "we've always been doing things that way" is a good way to become stagnant and irrelevant.
And the whole idea of "our way or no way" stinks, there is something called negociation and the middleground...
My kingdom for modpoints..
I nominate you as this year's Thug of the Year.
People who preach that there is no difference between words and bullets deserve to learn the difference first hand.
You are beyond stupid.
Besides, your analogy breaks down completely because his wife is a martial arts champion and would probably break his neck if he got out of line with her or their children.
Linus, It's just business. If you find yourself getting that aggravated, take a break, get back to life and do something that makes you happy...
Yes, and then the "professional" Sculley ran his company into the ground.
I think the Jobs vs. Sculley thing is the supreme example of how dangerous it is, not only to chase the blunt mannered visionaries out, but to let the smarmy business types in in the first place.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
There's only two or three operating systems still seriously in the running
a) Microsoft, run by someone who is famous for throwing chairs around
b) Linux, run by someone famous for throwing expletives around
c) Apple, which used to be run by someone famous for ranting at his employees and firing them at the merest hint they didn't deliver.
All the ones run by cute fluffy bunnies are nowhere to be seen.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
well thank god he wasn't naked.
Did you know? In the real world, you attract more flies with raw feces than with honey.
True that!
This is my sig.
Someone has to talk its democracy not LinusCrazy
http://askaralikhan.blogspot.com/
I posted on Sarah Sharps' blog. I didn't use profanity, I even quoted Eleanor Roosevelt: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." I disagreed with her and stated that the most vile and ruinous censorship starts with a call for civility and that these are almost always from dubious motivations.
So, low and behold, it was moderated out of existence. It seems to me that Sarah has no interest in alternate viewpoints. It is her blog and she has the right to delete comments, but it is quite telling that she will silence a voice which does not agree with her while she is saying she wants to protect people's voices. Her calls for "civility" can be seen as nothing less than a call for censorship. We all must resist this sort of behavior because it is a direct attempt to diminish free speech and impose one person's morality on a larger group.
I deal with so called professionals all the time in the work place and being polite has nothing to do with getting the work done. I'd prefer to be talked to direct with no BS. At least you know where you stand. Far too many people keep it all pretty and then stab you in the back. Say it as it is. No doubt then. If you screw up, why shouldn't you be told in no uncertain terms? You'll think twice the next time. Well played Linus.
People are stunned and lost when often directly confronted over bull****. So they hate it, and invented a new system that they can use to fight back called 'Professionalism' where they smile and 'take care of you' behind your back.
I know it's not as black and white as that, but when someone does something dumb, and you call them on it, they retort with professionalism. In those cases, it's a simple of 'Crap I need to hide this, I will use PROFESSIONALISM to defeat them!'
If Sarah cannot stand the heat, she should go back to the kitchen.
See - now that is political incorrectness.
False. It's sometimes really hot in the kitchen too!
I think this is about motivation. And (admittedly not having read any details) in general, I agree more with what I assume to be Sarah's perspective than what I assume to be Linus'. I would rather be motivated intellectually than emotionally. Emotions have unequaled power to motivate people to action (as the marriage debate has demonstrated), but I don't think it's the right way to *be* motivated -- out of fear or greed. Actions should be taken because they make sense, not because you're afraid. The primary emotion that should motivate me is satisfaction in my intellectual integrity and accomplishments.
American Civil Rights Movement.
Done, done.
What is insightful about this? It isn't the same thing at all.
What you're referring to is a group already part of a society campaigning for equality within the society. One could argue that they could have simply left but those who were doing the campaigning didn't have that option nor was it necessarily the appropriate option. They also were not attempting to force society to adopt their standards and beliefs but to force society to apply its own standards and beliefs to them and treat them equally.
If this person on the LKML was saying that she wanted to be allowed to curse and such because she had been told women shouldn't do such things then your point would be valid, or at least more so. Instead she's demanding that everyone else change to accommodate her desires and world view.
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
Are you an idiot?
-- Linux user #369862
I don't care how found the language. The important thing is that it gets the message across and it gets stuff done. As an editor, I've had a few commissions whose words may have been described as "vulgar", however this allowed them to get the message across much more efficiently than if they had employed a more Nabokovian writing style. If it gets work done, it's what we need in the workplace.
Tyhmä ärsyttävää poliittinen korrektius saa sinut tuhlaa aikaa typeriä asioita
- Sinun pitäisi olla onnellinen, että voit lukea sitä ollenkaan!
Perhaps I'm reading this into her valid points, but I think she also means this overtly hostile, sweary forum isn't very inclusive to women joining in (just like damn near every other place in the world).
If you think I'm full of it, look through this thread; just a cusory browsing picked out the phrases Prima Donna and Drama Queen.
This.
I must admit, I respect Linus more after reading this e-mail.
Whenever the economy goes down, the time of the polite or "professional" type has come to replace his rather impulsive or even choleric collegues. This does not happen by incident: politeness or courtiousness -in the meaning of mastering the oftenly difficult protocol at court- was the only chance for legions of otherwise untalented noble young men at Europe's courts to win the king's attenttion or favour and get a job. This kind of politeness usually came -and still comes- along with lies and intrigue and a general climate dominated by fear and dishonesty.
Oh, the beautiful gloss of greality!
I wouldn't say Linus is mean (at least in person). I don't know him closely, but I've met and talked with him a few times. I certainly don't find him offensive just because. And...it does seem his method works.
Instead of "telling off" that person, what if he'd simply said something to the effect of, "Don't ever submit code when you're not sure it works. Moreover, don't ever submit code that you admit isn't necessary. These are pretty basic principles of kernel development, and, honestly, of software development in general. This project can't afford to have stuff like this turn into a pattern, so if it happens again I'll be forced to revoke your commit privileges. I'm dead serious about that. I'd rather it not come to that, though, so do be more careful in the future. Cheers."
If I walked into an interview, and saw someone being publicly berated for a stupid technical mistake, then I would be much more likely to consider that position. As I am good at what I do, I don't want to have to carry dead weight on my team. Of course there is a difference between a techie berating somebody for performing way below their potential, and a management type humiliating somebody for their own ego trip. The latter would not be acceptable. Linus definitely falls into the former though. If he thought I had to up my game, then I would take it on the chin and do it.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
If you walked into an office for a job interview, and the first thing you saw was some management type openly berating a subordinate, what tone would that set
Linus isn't a "management type", here, he's a senior engineer. It's very different. A "management type" (let's just call him a "manager") carries the connotation of generally not knowing what they're talking about -- at least not for technical matters, which is presumably what the berated person and the reader are really interested in. A senior engineer does.
If I saw a senior engineer berating a junior engineer's work, which is what Linus does, I wouldn't think anything of it -- I see it all the time.
That's not what he's saying. Cows and human beings are both mammals. Does that mean there's no difference between cows and people?
Verbal and physical abuse are not the same either. But they have enough in common that it's meaningful to classify them both as "abuse" . "Sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me" must be the most deceptive proverb ever. Word *will* hurt you if you're subjected to a constant barrage of verbal abuse and are publicly humiliated on a daily basis. Why do you think decent people " go postal" and start shooting their abusive boss and the co-workers who didn't help them? Why do you think people commit suicide in the locker room? The line between physical and verbal abuse is rather blurry since verbal abuse can also have physical consequences.
It was Linus's original goal in 1990 to achieve the largest install base on top of the Xen microkernel? This is news to me.
The most important criteria with any new project is to obtain critical mass of collaborators and users. Stroustrup didn't want to base C++ on C. His largest influence was Simula 67. It ended up being fairly hideous, intellectually, to graft Simula programming idioms on top of C. At the same time, the underlying C language compatibility was the main reason C++ was adopted by most people in the first place, whereas language designers who placed more value on purity and aesthetics now languish in relative obscurity.
One could make a strong case that Tannenbaum's present success is parasitic on the success of Linux itself, since Linux ended up becoming--within a rabbinical epsilon--the most significant force shaping the ecosystem where Tannenbaum's kernel eventually gained traction.
In raw soil, usually the worms precede the flowers. Tannebaum can suck it.
I would also argue that the success of C++ has been good for C, because it released C from the pressure to evolve in a direction less well suited to the niche it presently dominates. C++ is heroine to a language lawyer. From the perspective of the C community, good riddance.
The problem with aesthetics driven design is that there's always some use case that takes it up the wazoo. Aesthetics always moves in the direction of divorcing messy reality. That reality might be your own. One can also describe this as a refinement of the application domain. This rocks when it works. Worst case scenario is when the glass ceiling of aesthetic refinements slam you like a bird into a spotless pane after your project reaches a million lines of code. The culture of C++ is that embracing messy reality is Job Number One and that elegance is subordinated to this goal, which is why C++ is strong in genericity and weak in garbage-collected managed memory.
C++ has a first-growth generalist mandate married to a progressive pragmatism. The Linux kernel has a first-growth generalist mandate married to a conservative pragmatism a mile wide, and a culture to match.
Python has a second-growth generalist mandate married to a reductive pragmatism. It's strange to compare the culture of Postgres, as someone else did, which is the epitome of a paradigmatic buy-in. Once you buy into a relational data store with ACID integrity, you're already halfway to becoming a Mormon church, never again to be bothered by the hubbub of the NoSQL gospel choir on the other side of the tracks. Linux by comparison is a Unitarian church in raw-tongued multi-ethnic Sydney. One chick thinks it should be more like Toronto. You know, Toronto is great and all, but one is enough.
Yours is not a fair statement. She’s been contributing to the Linux kernel for (as far as I can tell after a quick Google) 5 years or more. She’s not ‘attempting to join [the] community’; she’s already part of the community.
And she’s attempting to change it from within. Nothing, ipso facto, wrong with that.
30 Linux Kernel Developers in 30 Weeks: Sarah Sharp <<-- describes her involvement with kernel in 2007.
Okay, in that case she's been a part of it for a while now and has (so far as I know) suddenly decided she doesn't like the way things are. That's fine. Asking for change and such is fine to a point. However, this is also closely related to the ridiculous idea that people have a right not to be offended or to hear things they don't like. No such right exists.
If they are unwilling to change, and I unsurprisingly tend to agree with Linus's stance on the fakery involved in being "professional", then she can either deal with it or leave. The people on that list were the way they were long before she got there even if she has been involved with it for the last few years.
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
Be honest about your emotions, feel the change, and take action gently before you can't stand.
When did civility become a disease?
Most of the time when people complain about political correctness, it's because they the self-discipline or the intelligence necessary to compose a polite reply.
Citation Needed
Clearly Linus is not lacking in intelligence, but he seems short on common sense here
Citation Needed
Political correctness, when done well, is a more effective weapon than boorishness.
Citation Needed
Calling someone a fool is easy, but crass and wasteful.
Citation Needed
In the eyes of the audience it lowers you to the level of the fool, and you have to work harder to prove you aren't. Giving someone else the opportunity to open their own mouth and prove themselves a fool, now that's economical.
Citation Needed
They'll happily blather out their inanity on their own, if you let them.
Citation Needed
Yet also a fair statement. After all, when you attempt to join a community you either abide by the rules and customs of that community or else you leave and go elsewhere. You do not demand that community change to meet your world view.
It's not a community, it's a software development project. OK, one can talk about a developer "community", but as soon as that "community" starts having rules and customs not directly linked to the development of the software in question, it becomes something else, especially if the rules and customs can be perceived as antithetical to the development process. The Linux kernel development team are not a masonic lodge!
A community is a group of individuals banding together for common purpose with agreed upon customs and norms, spoken or unspoken. Any software development project with almost any degree of openness quickly forms into a community as a natural consequence of human behavior.
The norms of that community are well established and nothing you've said changes my points. :)
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
I am a big Linus fan, but if you can't deal with people - especially your working peers - without using abusive language then you are just an ignorant asshole with some mental problems.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
No, but if you said to a third coworker behind the deserving one's back, "bob over there is so stupid, somebody should beat him until he isn't" you'd laugh together and do more to damage the work environment (this is a third person impersonal you, not a you directly, I wish we had a proper pronoun for that in English).
Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
The problem is that it's pretty useless to tell people who think that it's possible to strongly disagree and voice one's opinion clearly without making people feel like crap, that they too can be verbally abusive.
Analogy: someone is being picked on for being a nerd. They're fed up with the beatings and they go to the principal. The principal tells them: don't worry, I have the solution for you. From now on, you're free to hit them back as much as you want. You won't be punished for it. Is that a good solution? I don't think so. The "nerd" doesn't want to beat up anyone. He wants to be in an environment where there will be no beatings. In theory, "everyone can beat up anyone they want" sounds like a wonderfully egalitarian plan. In practice, it's a gift to bullies since they're the only ones who want to be beating up people.
Same thing here. People who want to be polite and treat others as human beings don't care that they're allowed to be verbally abusive too. They don't want to and won't be. The only people who benefit from that kind of " free-for-all" policy are those who are already inclined to abuse people.
Apples and Oranges. I'm getting rather exhausted with folks who like to haul out a civil rights comparison every time they feel something is unfair. You don't get to choose the color of your skin. You do get to choose whether or not you work on a specific open source project. She's free to make the request, however Linus is also free to tell her to kick rocks. Civil rights was about breaking down systemic abuse of an entire race of people who were litterally considered to be less than human.
I subscribe so I can read Linus comments. How many are with me on this? LOL
Linus is not going to change because one Intel developer didn't like how he says things. It's not about whether she likes it, it's a matter of what works for the community as a whole. So far, we've had a couple decades of kernel success and advances. I'm inclined to side with Linus. On the other hand, she did get her name out there, which I'd have never even heard if she hadn't done it.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Here I thought Linus was too young to be a grump old man.... maybe I was mistaken.
Not that it would ever happen, but whether or not to fork is not entirely up to Intel. Suppose Linus very politely tells the next Intel patch set to visit /dev/null.
I expect the language of Sarah's co workers would make LKML look like
picking daisys and skipping through the park. The other thing about being a
PC dumbass is not understanding the risk.
As far a civility goes, some have argued that civility is really a form of censorship ('political' correctness) that actually discourages and even prohibits open discourse of important subjects and issues. See the article by Randal Kennedy, "The Case Against Civility," The American Prospect, republished December 19, 2001.
http://prospect.org/article/state-debate-case-against-civility
Linus created the most widely used kernel on the planet. I think that affords him a good bit of leeway when it come to his "professional behavior." The fact is, he was just some faceless college student, a Joe Sixpack if you will (albeit an intelligent and talented one) who lucked into a good thing. He was never groomed to be a "business man." That doesn't make his behavior right, but anyone who doesn't like it has the right to take their ball and go home if that is what is going to make them happy at the end of the day. I can promise you had I been in the same position as Linus, I doubt everyone would find me particularly "likable." I tend to be a bit brash and vulgar myself.
It is not because YOU think it doesn't serve any purpose that it does not. Your arrogance is only second to your simple-mindedness, my friend. Being 100% direct many times involve what you call "abusing" people.
Didn't take long for the misogyny to start, as I expected. I read her post, she doesn't use the fact that she is a woman to back up her point and your claim that it is a power grab is just your own paranoid fantasy. You neatly illustrated the problem for women in IT: it isn't a level playing field, and they are always assumed to be raving feminazis instead of actual human beings.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Except for the possibility to apply Occam's Razor, yes I am. But I see now that it became ambiguous. By "you" in the last sentence I mean "someone", not you specifically. Sorry for the confusion.
Civility is not too much to ask.
yes
I was of course commenting on what we consider "successful" in our culture (or most cultures for that matter, assholes get the power, the money and the women)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Flinging the insults like this as an ad hominem attack. "You're stupid, that's a stupid idea, why are you still trying to pollute the code with your stupidity?" are all irrelevant arguments. They attack the person, not the problem. "This thing wastes cycles when switching tasks!" gets to the actual problem. Adding belligerent and ad hominem attacks isn't logical; they don't help make his point.
I know Linus claims he reserves his vitriol for "people who should know better". In this case, he should know better how to argue a point.
John
I wonder how many n00bs never get that far, because they see how the leader of the community treats others and decide to go do something else instead. Maybe Linus does personally know the recipients of his infamous rants, but on a high-profile public forum not everyone watching might realise that.
I'd rather only have people who are mentally stable enough to withstand Linus's flames develop code for the Linux kernel. This is not about a small experimental project where nobody cares about stability, but one of the largest truly collaborative endeavors ever made by humankind, and billions of dollars in worldwide economic growth hinge on its future development. So I think it's right to expect a reasonable set of skills of people one can entrust with working on it. To give you some perspective, I'm pretty sure that the astronaut program performs stricter tests for mental stability than being able to take some guy's rants not too personal, especially when they are directed towards someone else.
If you walked into an office for a job interview, and the first thing you saw was some management type openly berating a subordinate, what tone would that set before you even started the discussion you were there for?
Oh, come on. Linus is not the boss of any of the people on LKML.
OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
I'll link you to what he said. (I'm not sure if you haven't read this particular bit, or if you have and are just trying to make a case for some magical ponies-and-rainbows world.)
I submit that what he said there provides more useful criticism than your suggestion, despite the usage of... well, really not very much profanity at all. (Tallying up everything that could even vaguely be considered "bad language", I get three "crap"s, two "shit"s, one "hell", and one "WTF".)
In addition, your response is more punitive than is probably necessary, considering that the person in question has a history of committing good code normally. You'd seriously operate on a two-strikes policy for bad commits?
I actually spent the time to read most of the thread. Clicked through for some time reading the back and forth.. I have come to a simple conclusion.. Linus and Sarah would be amazing in bed together. Because the crazy is just amazing.
Merf
The details of what I wrote aren't important; it's the town. Whatever Linus's "law" is regarding dumb-ass commits and yanking commit privileges, it can be communicated in a way that's authoritative, expresses disapproval, provides constructive criticism, and yet is not impolite. You almost never have to be rude to get your point across unless your point is to be rude.
Nah. You're dead wrong, You HAVE to allow room for human nature in a creative setting or you run the risk of stifling it. Or the creative force runs away from you. If you're the boss of a stable of creative geniuses that's not a course for success.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
That's not what he's saying. Cows and human beings are both mammals. Does that mean there's no difference between cows and people? Verbal and physical abuse are not the same either. But they have enough in common that it's meaningful to classify them both as "abuse" .
You've destroyed your own point with that.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
And put in their place. I for one am tired of little prima-dona programmers who think they're Bob's gift to the coding world, and no amount of fake conciliatory behavior is going to get them to change or even code better. The question you have to ask yourself, don't want someone who knows what they're doing? Or do you want some whiny suckup in middle management that got where he is because he's busy trying to make everyone feel better about their feelings and handing out participation trophies? Suck it up, or go code for Apple or Microsoft. Linux is not for pussies.
There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
like the "Hello Kitty, Island Adventure" team
There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
What's up with the assumption that women are delicate little flowers that need to be protected because they can't handle...anything? Seems to me like your POV is a bigger problem.
There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
No, you are projecting your own perspective onto 'the rest of the world.' 'the rest of the world' doesn't use linux because windows is good enough for most uses and has established business software. That momentum is hard to beat. This has nothing to do with the behavior of the kernel devs on their own damn mailing list..who 99% of the user base never talk to anyway. This mailing list has been in operation with its own established culture for over 20 years, which proves that it works for them. Then she comes along and starts preaching and whining, and because she's a woman, this ultra PC culture expects them, as men, to get their manginas all hot and bothered over it. Linus said to hell with that and I agree.
Technical correctness > political correctness should rule the day, and I'm glad that's what linus intends. She can fork the kernel and create her own project; make her own 'diversity' distribution that's maintained by vetted politically correct maintainers who bend over backwards to never offend anyone, even if it causes more work for more people, and more trouble for more users, later on.. Then she'll find out for sure whether anyone with any technical knowledge will really want to put up with that long term.
http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m=137398683002304&w=2
This guy's example is right on the money. Political correctness and the obsession with everyone's damn feelings routinely gets in the way of productivity, especially when management tries to graft it on to their employees.
Sarah Sharp is not asking the LKML to change its behavior for her own benefit but rather for the benefit of the developers that use it. It seems like a totally reasonable request from a long-time kernel maintainer (and Linus treats it as such) unless you make the assumption that's she's only asking because she's a woman. I think too much of the commentary here is based on that assumption and the "corollary" that her comment means she can't "take the heat".
Disclaimer: I know Sarah Sharp professionally. These are my views, not my employer's (I just started as MS a few months ago).
Isn't that what I said?
This is a typical "I love you, you are perfect, now change".
How long has she been involved in the kernel development progress?
She should have known all that time how Linus gets things done.
He has gotten a bit milder over the years, but mostly he has stayed
the same, he has stayed Linus.
Why does she presume that the entire process for the mailing list need to change because *she* has now
decided she does not like it. That is extremely arrogant. Nobody is forcing her to be part of the mailing
list or to work on the kernel. If she feels strongly about it, and you cannot work with people who have a
different way of communicate than what you prefer, then leave.
I feel icy fear stabbing at me by the use of "professional", what in the world does that really mean.
and lets get together and write a document about how people must behave on the kernel mailing list.
To me, this grandstanding that she is doing, is in order to buy herself more publicity and fame, and
gain points for "standing up" as a woman.
The collaboration on the Linux kernel is between extremely talented developers. Anyone who has spent
serious time working with developers, being a developer, knows that they can be very different from each
and very passionate.
I'd rather only have people who are mentally stable enough to withstand Linus's flames develop code for the Linux kernel.
To each their own. Personally, I'd rather have good Linux kernel developers develop code for the Linux kernel.
Also, your implication that anyone who doesn't want to work in an unpleasant environment is mentally unstable is obvious hyperbole.
This is not about a small experimental project where nobody cares about stability, but one of the largest truly collaborative endeavors ever made by humankind
And again, your hyperbole is unfounded. This is one of the largest collaborative endeavours ever made by humankind. This is one of the largest collaborative endeavours ever made by humankind. This is one of the largest collaborative endeavours ever made by humankind.
Linux is a relatively large software project. There are plenty of other relatively large software projects, written by plenty of other smart people who also care about stability and quality.
billions of dollars in worldwide economic growth hinge on its future development
In what way, exactly? Systems that include Linux surely have a collective value on that scale, but that value wouldn't disappear if someone made a small mistake in a kernel commit, or if Linus retired tomorrow.
To give you some perspective, I'm pretty sure that the astronaut program performs stricter tests for mental stability than being able to take some guy's rants not too personal
You are giving me some perspective, by comparing a programme that develops one relatively large piece of software to a programme that puts humans in space? Physician, heal thyself!
Oh, come on. Linus is not the boss of any of the people on LKML.
Are you suggesting that he's just an ordinary poster on the list, with no special authority compared to kernel contributors and no special status as a leader that newcomers might look to?
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
both socially and technically? By me: http://www.mail-archive.com/fonc@vpri.org/msg03714.html ... So, perhaps now we finally twenty-years see the shouting begin as the monolithic Linux kernel reaches its limits as a community process? :-) Still, even if true, it was a good run."
"After citing Alan Kay's OOPSLA 1997 "The Computer Revolution Has Not Happened Yet" speech, the key point I made there is: "Yet, I can't help but feel that the reason Linus is angry, and fearful, and shouting when people try to help maintain the kernel and fix it and change it and grow it is ultimately because Alan Kay is right. As Alan Kay said, you never have to take a baby down for maintenance -- so why do you have to take a Linux system down for maintenance?"
That was about this slashdot post of mine, which included:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3346421&cid=42430475
"Again, whether using a 2X4 to get someone's attention was appropriate or not in this case, the deeper issue may also be that the strong emotions expressed by Linus may reflect a fundamental problematical issue in the Linux kernel architecture and development processes. Why does Linus have to be so afraid of so many continually needed patches breaking the system in a hard-to-understand and test way? At some point, it may be reasonable to say that what *most* users need is not a 20% or whatever performance improvement by a monolithic kernel but instead maybe what they would be better off with is a microkernel that supports easier upgrades, improved reliability, easier portability, and thus helps software developers to do new things with less effort and higher quality. And as QNX demonstrated in the 1980s, being able to do easy parallel processing across a network of thousands or millions of processors exchanging messages may be ultimately a much bigger performance boost than, say, a few percent greater performance on one processor. That is the promise of "message passing" whether implemented in a microkernel or not."
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Linux is a serious business these days. In business - fucking people out of it on a regular - public basis is a sign of not having a clue.
... the fans are all old corporate fogies who like not-too-much distortion in the chorus.
Linus - is used to the pedestal he's on - and fair play to him he's earned it. The rest of the world simply doesn't have the luxury of being able to behave like a rock star and have people still love you.
When rock stars trash hotel rooms, or vomit all over the place - hey they are rock stars and it's cool.
When software rock stars flame you publicly on LKML - hey - that's all part of the experience of going to the concert (like crowd serfing to extend the analogy).
In this mode - Linux is a bit like a Metallica concert.
The days of heroin and overturned busses is over. The days of the receding hairlines and the ballads are upon us and
Also - major corporations - like Intel - provide most of the financing to the Linux foundation - and in this light I'm sure the wise corporate benefactors would be pleased if use of the fuck word - were put to an end.
You can say crap but you can't say shite ! He who pays the piper - calls the tune !
Linus' foul mouth, more than anything else, is due to his consistent overestimation of his own importance. It's just arrogant, alpha wannabe bluster; and occasionally, as in the case with nVidia, it can be really destructive.
It's not about political-correctness though, it's an attitude of "i want everybody to bend to my subjective point of view". Linus' response about being able to work with people who behave differently was spot on, she's not complaining about the message, she's complaining about how it was delivered and quite frankly that position is entirely subjective...perhaps she could build an LKML translator that converts things like "shut the fuck up" to "please do not continue speaking" and "get rid of that pile of shit" to "please make that more like a basket of puppies". If you read LKML you notice that almost everybody on the receiving end of a Linus rant appears to just parse out that crap anyway and only take away the message.
This is what I suspected. Everybody is assuming that Sarah is correct; that Linus really was acting abusively. But you've provided evidence that this is merely a case of someone not appreciating his form of humor.
Keeping the organization fun and informal motivates people to contribute brilliant code. If the community loses sight of that, it will be at Linux' peril.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
How does "african american" in any fashion whatsoever, more accurately describe black americans and not the stereotype, as portrayed in this sentence:
"The prefferenial treatment of african americans in the college entrance examination has led to a sharp decline in student achievement."
The fundemental problem, is that "african americans" is too broad of a category to use here. The problem is that individuals of a specific subcultural group who adhere to certain anti-intellectual precepts perform less favorably than individuals not of that subcultural group, which happens to correlate very strongly with ethnicity. In this case, having "black" skin.
It makes the implicit assertion that all black people perform less favorably in academia than do members of other ethnicities. At most, its use of "african american" limits this to just people who can trace ancestry to africa at some point, who live inside the united states, as opposed to say, austrailian aboriginal peoples who migrate to the united states. (They cannot be "african" americans, but can be called "black" americans.) In that edge case, kudos.
However, if your goal is to not be exclusionary, which precise language is intrinsically (which is WHY it is precise to begin with), then "african american" is a bad choice.
Say for instance, this sentence:
"African americans are still finding it difficult to be represented as true equals in american society, and are still frequently selected against by employers and home owners when seeking employment and rental opportunities, in open defiance of equal opportunity and equal housing laws."
Do you mean this only applies to african americans, or do you mean it applies to people with black skin in general? If you mean the former, how do you segregate out the aboriginal heritage people with black skin from the study, and how do you account for the "african-ness" being a significant factor? If you mean the latter, why not use the words "black people"?
Things like this tell me straight up that your "precise communication" motive simply does not add up.
Probably. But Jobs doesn't make me angry. I can't summon that much emotion over someone so pathetic.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
"The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.
Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. "
- Karl Popper, "The Open Society and Its Enemies".
My point wrt the Civil Rights Movement was not anything to do with skin colour. It was that a growing group of people decided not to simply subscribe to the rules and customs of the community around them and started increasingly taking a stand against it.
I'm surprised people didn't connect the dots.
Whether or not I agree with Sarah isn't the point. It's that she's able to stand up for what she believes in, going against the community as a whole, and (at least a little bit) forcing a few people to temporarily re-evaluate the idea of what the group norms are. I'm glad she's trying.
My point wrt the Civil Rights Movement was not anything to do with skin colour. It was that a growing group of people decided not to simply subscribe to the rules and customs of the community around them and started increasingly taking a stand against it.
I'm surprised people didn't connect the dots.
Whether or not I agree with Sarah isn't the point. It's that she's able to stand up for what she believes in, going against the community as a whole, and (at least a little bit) forcing a few people to temporarily re-evaluate the idea of what the group norms are. I'm glad she's trying.
I've nothing wrong with her trying and I didn't think what you said had anything to do with color. I'm not sure what the color of all those involved are anyway and it wouldn't matter either way.
She can try all she wants. However, in the end either she has to accept the results or leave the community. The community is under no obligation to change itself to fit her whims/desires, no?
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
Yeah, there are two issues. I think she is complaining partly due to her politics, evidenced by her google+ and her "scared to talk to a girl kernel developer" comment in the thread. People like this look for opportunities to stir up trouble when they think they have a shot of gaining leverage.
No worries, slashcode is offering to let me moderate your comment about my comment ... it would likely fail, but it really shouldn't even bother.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
Hopefully my reply to your comment is moderated as less boneheaded than my previous comment...
Might makes right.
RIght should make might, but often doesn't.
Who would fire him?
Goodness is a subjective term, but I think you were asking for trouble saying that on slashdot, a site which is widely known for favoring open source.
They haven't automatically "lost"
In fact I would say that "accepting" something would make them a loser, if what they accepted was bad.
Quit shoehorning social maxims into situations where the details actually matter.
And refusing to change because "we've always been doing things that way" is a good way to become stagnant and irrelevant.
That's a straw man. No one is arguing that "we've always been doing things that way". You just made that up. Linus' argument is: "The fact is, people need to know what my position on things are. And I can't just say "please don't do that", because people won't listen. I say "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle", and I mean it.
And the whole idea of "our way or no way" stinks, there is something called negociation and the middleground
That's the point Linus is trying to make. Linux development is not about negotiations and middle ground; he argues that both of them are just lame pc bullshit and that he only cares about choosing the development process that yields the best results.
And refusing to change because "we've always been doing things that way" is a good way to become stagnant and irrelevant.
That's a straw man. No one is arguing that "we've always been doing things that way". You just made that up. Linus' argument is: "The fact is, people need to know what my position on things are. And I can't just say "please don't do that", because people won't listen. I say "On the internet, nobody can hear you being subtle", and I mean it.
It would be if I would be commenting Linus's position, and not the message I was replying to, the message I was replying to said "if you join a group you should abide by their rules and custom or leave", I disagree and although I cannot be sure I do not believe it would be the full position of Linus, for example the "custom" of the group was to use BitKeeper and he decided to write git and get everybody to move to it, and I would credit him with the thought that if at that exact time the issues of BitKeeper became clear, a "new member" would have presented a program with more or less the featureset of git he would have adopted it and not suffered from NIH syndrome
And the whole idea of "our way or no way" stinks, there is something called negociation and the middleground
That's the point Linus is trying to make. Linux development is not about negotiations and middle ground; he argues that both of them are just lame pc bullshit and that he only cares about choosing the development process that yields the best results.
From what I read about Linus's position, it is not that he is not about negotiating, he just request the right to negociate by hitting the table with the fist (virtually, in pratice write "strong" letters
and defining what yields the best result is a "negotiation", for example linux does not the all the "crap" that enables it to interface proprietary file systems formats compatible with windows and macosx, "they are wrong anyway", well the "middle ground" is to architect the filesystem so that it can reasonably cleanly support a variety of file systems without too much cost to the "common base", and part of the negociation is to yell at people if they want to add stuff that would break something in the core in order to make it easier to support something that it not really indispensable.
so negotiations and mittle ground are not "pc bullshit", and "strong language" is not "sexist aggression", but "sexist strong language" is a sexist aggression, and using "pc" weasel word to pretend negotiate when in practice you are not is just as bad
I disagree and although I cannot be sure I do not believe it would be the full position of Linus, for example the "custom" of the group was to use BitKeeper and he decided to write git and get everybody to move to it, and I would credit him with the thought that if at that exact time the issues of BitKeeper became clear, a "new member" would have presented a program with more or less the featureset of git he would have adopted it and not suffered from NIH syndrome
I'm not sure if I understand what you are trying to say here. Linus wrote git. And we all are better of for having git. That's the aiming for the best results part. You seem to be claiming that this is irrelevant, because you can make up some hypothetical situation in which you can imagine Linus to fall for NIH syndrome. Is that really your argument?
well the "middle ground" is to architect the filesystem so that it can reasonably cleanly support a variety of file systems without too much cost to the "common base", and part of the negociation is to yell at people if they want to add stuff that would break something in the core in order to make it easier to support something that it not really indispensable.
"Fixing" something by breaking something else has already been tried multiple times in the kernel. It has always been a fiasco. If you aim for the best results you have to stop this practice.
From what I read about Linus's position, it is not that he is not about negotiating [...] and defining what yields the best result is a "negotiation"
Then you should reread what he actually wrote. His position is that breaking user land is not acceptable. His position is that this is not negotiable.
"sexist aggression", but "sexist strong language"
Where are his sexist comments? Citation needed.
The only two choices are not intolerable asshole and fake nice saccharine pantywaist. He must be surrounded by people calloused to the abuse and too afraid to call it out as what it is. So what you're sitting at home in your bathrobe? Congratulations on being a misanthrope shut in weirdo.
I hate sigs.
It isn't just in the dev community. Some of Torvalds's public statements have hurt the reputation of his OS. Be better, Linus. I love Linux, but you're a jerk.
So tolerate abusive, boorish assholes? Why? Just to fit in? Fuck that.
I hate sigs.
As for Linus' abusive behavior: it is his right to act like a jerk. Most people would not work for or along side such a person, but apparently Linus has enough supporters/admirers/worshippers, that he is not motivated to tone it down a couple of notches. But he should try it sometime just to see what a difference it will make.
Amen.
I disagree and although I cannot be sure I do not believe it would be the full position of Linus, for example the "custom" of the group was to use BitKeeper and he decided to write git and get everybody to move to it, and I would credit him with the thought that if at that exact time the issues of BitKeeper became clear, a "new member" would have presented a program with more or less the featureset of git he would have adopted it and not suffered from NIH syndrome
I'm not sure if I understand what you are trying to say here. Linus wrote git. And we all are better of for having git. That's the aiming for the best results part. You seem to be claiming that this is irrelevant, because you can make up some hypothetical situation in which you can imagine Linus to fall for NIH syndrome. Is that really your argument?
I mean that when changing gets good results it is worth while to change, and if you would read what I write instead of trying to "protect linus" when I'm not attacking him, I wrote exactly the contrary, I said I believe that he would not refuse to change "just because it's not him".
well the "middle ground" is to architect the filesystem so that it can reasonably cleanly support a variety of file systems without too much cost to the "common base", and part of the negociation is to yell at people if they want to add stuff that would break something in the core in order to make it easier to support something that it not really indispensable.
"Fixing" something by breaking something else has already been tried multiple times in the kernel. It has always been a fiasco. If you aim for the best results you have to stop this practice.
so you are saying the same thing that I'm saying ...
From what I read about Linus's position, it is not that he is not about negotiating [...] and defining what yields the best result is a "negotiation"
Then you should reread what he actually wrote. His position is that breaking user land is not acceptable. His position is that this is not negotiable.
So you mean because something very bad is not negotiable, negociating is bad in itself, of course breaking user land is bad, it does not mean that there is only one single way to do anything in the kernel for everything ...
"sexist aggression", but "sexist strong language"
Where are his sexist comments? Citation needed.
Gee again I didn't comment on Linus initial point but answered a specific posting about "how to enter a club", and I did not imply that Linus or anybody else specific was making sexist comments, but saying very specifically that "strong language" is not necessary "sexist aggression".
To give an example I believe that you "want" to read into my message things that are not there, and instead of trying to make an opinion for yourself on what I write you try to read into my text something that fit the opinion you allready had.
So at this specific moment I have the feeling that you are thick as a brick, this is "strong language", if I would try to lookup your profile and taking in account whatever gender/ethnic/politic/etc... caracteristics I would find about you and say that you are a and that is the reason why of course you are thick as a brick... that would be "aggressive" and insulting to people who share the chosen caracteristic but are not thick as a brick...
with this I bid you adieu...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_it_ain't_broke,_don't_fix_it#.22If_it_ain.27t_broke.2C_don.27t_fix_it..22
Casteism
As I said, I had a really hard time understanding your last post. Maybe it's my trying to protect Linus, maybe it's your runaway sentences. Whatever, I was not trying to start an argument for argument's sake. Have a nice day, Sir!
...and every reply to her from others on the list ended with: "and the horse you rode in on!"
Or perhaps the butthole to stop stinking.
Honestly, Linus is just like a big whiny baby. Every time he opens his mouth, it's something like "You motherf*****, rolling out your sh**** patches with out my goddamn permission." I doubt he'll ever change. Just like Jobs.
I would think getting abused by Linus Torvalds would be a sign that you'd finally become a going concern in the Linux kernel community. I'd be excited personally. I'd probably frame a printed screenshot of the abuse.
+1 good sir I know this is /. but I don't think it is asking too much to read what Linus' position is instead of putting up strawmen.
The people who belong in this environment already know and accept the risks that come along with the prestige of working on the core of the greatest community achievement in computer history.
If you really believe that, you have an extremely narrow perspective on computer history, though judging by some of the other comments in this discussion you're certainly not alone.
Please see my earlier post for some other examples of exceptionally impressive community achievements, including another computer-related one that surely has at least as big a claim to be the top of the list as the Linux kernel.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that LKML is just another forum for people to wander around in like Slashdot.
The LKML is certainly a forum where smart people discuss sometimes tricky issues relating to an important piece of software. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. However, the idea that it is special in that respect or that Linux is exceptional as a software project is bizarre. Do you not realise that there are other software projects, some of which are much bigger, longer-lasting and/or more widely used than Linux? Do you not think that everyone working on those projects also engages in thoughtful discussions and wants to produce software of very high quality? Of course they do, and many of them manage to do it without having prominent figures in their community repeatedly lose their cool in public.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
He should maybe ask Theo for some man-management/PR pointers? Politely.
--
God loves discontinuous functions -- like His beloved beetles, they're almost everywhere.
Someone we read about is a boor. A boor, basically did not grow up to deal with people. Can you imagine how the boor is at home. Somewhere along the way, because computer programs can't talk back, you can deal with it with any language, from bullying English, swearing to talkng nice to it. But you also have to do the same with people. The boor shows small vocabularies, which implies small minds.
You can fit the boor description to many people. I know a few of them
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
So you are saying she can't ask for change when she joins a project, because she's new... and she can't ask for change after she's been contributing for years, because she's been putting up with it. So when can she ask for change?
You missed out the bit about taking her shoes off and getting pregnant. Though I doubt she'd be satisifed by your minuscule "appendage".
(If Sarah is reading - doubtful - and cares - even more doubtful - I can lend a microscope to go appendage-hunting through the collective trousers of Slashdot. Likely an exercise in laughable futility though.)
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
One short cliché in the right context can be funny, and I think a little word-play levity does not hurt here. Adding three more just makes you sound mean and childish.
Sarah would definitely not be hypocritical enough to approve of such schoolboy name-calling.
If Sarah cannot stand the heat, she should go back to the kitchen.
See - now that is political incorrectness.
Yet also a fair statement. After all, when you attempt to join a community you either abide by the rules and customs of that community or else you leave and go elsewhere. You do not demand that community change to meet your world view.
Linus is an arrogant jackass. He's not someone to look up to. Any community riddled with people like him is bound to exclude the best people in its field, to its detriment.
If they are unwilling to change, and I unsurprisingly tend to agree with Linus's stance on the fakery involved in being "professional", then she can either deal with it or leave. The people on that list were the way they were long before she got there even if she has been involved with it for the last few years.
Linus is trying to justify being an arrogant asshole under the guise of being casual. He's the sort of person who'd get his ass kicked time and again in person because he's such an asshole if he acted like he does online, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. He's the perfect example of the biggest down side to the technology age.
I wasn't aware that attempting rape was a form of argument, as that was the topic at hand. My comment about rape was regarding arguments between those who deemed a certain act as unacceptable and those who deemed it acceptable. The earlier statement was that any use of the phrase was an automatic argument-loser. If you disagree with my comment please tell me why the use of the term, when backed with a factual foundation, automatically undermines that factual foundation.
Does that mean saying "murdering someone who believes in a different religion is not acceptable" causes you to automatically lose an argument with a religious fundamentalist who is willing to kill those who do not believe as they do?
Why let a tyrant dictate the terms of your community over the objections of community members?
I hate sigs.
I'm with Linus on this one. Be yourself... There are too many companies and individuals that think they are great coders and they are not. And when you are contributing to the kernel writing piss poor code you deserve to be put in your place. Standards need to be achieved. They need to know if they attempt to contribute buggy code then they will get ridiculed. Why ???? Maybe they will do more QA before they attempt to upload. Or.. if you are a conspiracy theorist like me... you are an employee from Microsoft or Wind River purposely attempting to cripple the Linux Kernel.
Mod this comment up, please. While GP poster's original point was valid, his primary argument pivoted around her being a newcomer to the group (an assumption that I can't help but attribute to the complainant being referred to as "she" and not "he"), and when it was shown that she is not, in fact, a newcomer, the GP just reiterated his point using different words and arrived at the exact same conclusion. (If they [ie. the group she is also a part of] are unwilling to change, SHE should just accept it or leave)
[SHOW SOME LENIENCY TOWARDS