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Interview With iMac designer, Jonathan Ive
rleyton writes "The Independent has an interesting interview with Jonathan Ive, the designer of the new imac (and the iBook, the iPod and original iMac...)" It's actually a pretty interesting
even if you think the new iMac is repulsive. Personally I dig it.
Ive is a neat guy -- his work is pretty darned innovative -- more, I think, than people give Apple credit for. There are a lot of breakthrough aspects of most of their recent products.
Even if you don't like the stuff, it isn't the same derivative crap that has flooded the rest of the market.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
that's cool. i really like the design of the new iMac and think most folks complaining about it will be using a clone of it in 6 months. my question is why won't iMac treat audio with a little more repsect, and only service the visual (why didn't anyone ask the designer about that)? i'd like to see an iMac system that didn't require the user to buy external speakers just to hear anything remotely close to reaching the low end sounds we've come to love in our hip-hop, funk and satanic bible thumper rally music.
great comedy company.
I know that the lead times of a project like this preclude apple from actually using his design, but when you saw the article, what was your reaction?
Didja think it had been leaked?
This may have been the best trick of all. Forget the round motherboard or the pivoting head. This guy and his team kept the whole thing under pretty tight lip for almost two years!
Luck favors the prepared, darling.
Itroducing iLamp:
http://www.ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?di
According to Wired, a belgian developer claims he had imagined and put on line a similar design for new iMacs some months ago.
This developer would like to know whether the new iMac is actually (deeply) inspired from his works or just a coincidence.
His query is interesting as he doesn't want to sue Apple (not his kind of sport, actually) but just to know more...
Trolling using another account since 2005.
Granted, the new iMac is beautiful on the surface. But that great design is not limited to the outer shell. Check out what the iMac looks like on the inside. This Apple draft service manual has great pictures of the guts of the iMac.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Hey, thought I'd let you all know that MacSlash has as story where someone found the Draft iMac Service Manual (PDF) and has posted it. Looks really interesting, especially the Thermal Paste issues and the Faraday Cage. Lots if Pictures for the textually impaired.
Lump lingered last in line for brains, and the ones she got were sorta rotten and insane.
This interview touches on a few concepts that I think today's geeks (and many of yesterday's geeks too) are no longer in touch with.
Quality. Art. The "soul" of a machine.
There is something to be said for the amount of sheer human effort put in to designing a product like this. A Quality product shines in it's attention to human-machine interaction, but is a result of "inner beauty". For those of you who haven't programmed using Cocoa or haven't messed around much with OS X or actually seen and used a recent iMac in person, there's no substitute for the tangible results of Apple's years of dedication.
When I use Mac OS X, I can *feel* that somewhere in Cupertino there's an English major who was losing sleep at nights trying to make the text in the dialog boxes as clear and understandable as possible. When was the last time you felt that way about the latest d/l off of sourceforge?
The subject/object duality is something that premeates the "geek world" - I beg of the programmers and techs out there try to move beyond it. Apple's certainly tried to.
(I'd post more, but I haven't had my coffee yet... )
------------
"...and Maddest of all, to see Life as it Is, and not as it Should Be."
As posted above even if you dont like his stuff, its different, there are some things I do and dont like, But he seems to be one of the few designers that takes any amount of function into account.
:()
Personally I dont like the new Imac, BUT that really dosent mean SQUAT since Im not a prospective customer. Ill stick with the UltraSparcs.
What matters is Mac people do, and they liked the original, and the I book, I have used both and I can say I came closer than EVER to buying a Apple for the Wife, Part of that was the integrated packaging, part of it "ease of use" etc.
If they almost had me hooked after my last Apple experience (I bought a Lisa when they were new
Im sure they wont have a problem hooking people in.
Does it remind anyone else of their home-ec project gone awary , a slunk of dough , then sticking a pencil in it with a sign, (insert team name here) RULE ! ??? No wonder I failed HomeEc....
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
The article says the new iMac weighs 20 pounds. That seems rather heavy to me.
Has anyone picked one up yet? Does it actually weigh that much?
"The thing is, it's very easy to be different, but very difficult to be better. That's what we have tried to do with the new iMac."
Personally, I like the new iMac. Not enough to abandon my 6 month old PC and switch back to Macs, but I think it's a pretty cool computer. No matter what your opinion of Macintosh or their employees is, you have to like what the designer said. So many times in this industry (think about all Microsoft products) people forget that it's easy to make new and different things, the hard part is making reliable, efficient products that truly are "better." I say score one for Macintosh with this new computer, and even if it doesn't sell like hotcakes, they are in good shape if they all think like this guy does.
~ now you know
They could have called it iCon.
It cuts both ways. (design) Icon/I con.
Say what you may about the new machine, but I've already purchased one for my parents. It's the logical next step, since my father's got an obscenely expensive AV center, and a nice Sony DV camcorder, all of which he set up himself, yet refuses to check his own e-mail because of some ingrained fear of computers being as hard to use as they were 10 years ago. I'm betting this machine will change that for him.
Michael C. Hollinger
actually doing things is very different than thinking about it. like "ginger", though a patent on the idea was initiated, actually creating the balancing technology is quite a bit different than saying that it will be possible in the future. the japanese engineer is actually very rational about it. nice change of pace.
...toward having computers that you don't notice anymore. I would love to have a computer that wasn't subject any manifestation of 'beige box syndrome'. Unforunately, what I think of as beige box syndrome includes connecting cables from mouse (keyboard, monitor, scanner, network hub, etc) to computer, not just visual astetics. One look behind my desk at home (or the office) shows just what I worry about. Sure, you can bundle the cables together, but even then they make an auful mess.
My dream computer is one that stands out while I activly interact with it, but when I'm not using it seamlessly blends right into the background. Kindof the way the computer works on Star Trek. While we're still years away from having this concept being actively sold to the consumer (though all the pieces seem to be falling into place), in the past few years I have considered Macs ever more seriously when thinking about new computers (and know that now, with WinXP, if&when I succumb to the lure of a laptop, it will be an iBook- unless Linux has become the dominant x86 OS in the interim).
Do you like Japanese imports?
You are correct and I agree. The problem with many of our geek types is they have no concept of art. It is all function and never form. How many geeks have taken art classes or can talk about art history? Hardly any at my school. How many even have an appreciation? I don't know how many more bad user intrfaces I can deal with from these people. Form and function are one.
I just thin it is important to reconize quality, art and substance.
"Allez Cusine!"
Shouldn't it be spelt iVe?
When I use Mac OS X, I can *feel* that somewhere in Cupertino there's an English major who was losing sleep at nights trying to make the text in the dialog boxes as clear and understandable as possible. When was the last time you felt that way about the latest d/l off of sourceforge?
...or Slashdot for that matter.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
Yes, but when the form comes at the expense of function, function takes precedence. At least, that's my own philosophy. I don't pretend to speak for everyone.
Apart from it not being too heavy, they need that much weight in the bottom to keep the machine nice and stable so that it doesn't go flying if the screen is knocked.
Admittedly it is a cool design, but I can't help feeling once again, that NO ONE is out there designing anything targeted at me and I'm left to hunt for obscure parts vendors and try to cobble together something that appeals to me.
Personally I'd just like some more variety in the choices available to me, especially if that means machines that fit in seamlessly with my existing home electronics.
If there isn't an Apple Store near you... well, you'll just have to move. :-) I love the Apple Store -- if they installed an espresso machine, I might never leave. I think the employees are a bit scared of me...
** Cupertino operatives who sneak in during the middle of the night with new hardware displays on the before a big announcement (like a keynote speech). I believe they've been used three times previously at the Tyson's Corner store.
--
I like to watch.
i still can't believe no one's addressed the really important part: What is the LCD drops a pixel or two? You're stuck with a proprietary solution that's loaded with all this great hardware, and you have to either hook up an external monitor, which would ruin the reason you got this thing in the first place, or get an authorized Mac replacement, which would probably be 3/4 of the original price. Apple better have a five year warranty on these things... if the neck breaks, if the monitor dies, if x fails... then forget it. the beautiful thing about PCs is everytime i built a new one, i used about half the hardware from the old one. PC replacement hardware is cheap and easy to install. I can't say the same for Macs
I work selling TVs at sears, and the number one reason people don't buy tv-vcr combo units, or tv-dvd combos, is because their afraid the internal unit will break, thus rendering it useless.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
From page 15:
Important: Whenever the logic board is removed, you must install new thermal pads to
three surfaces (as shown above). Failure to apply these pads could cause the computer to
overheat and possibly damage the internal components. Continue with the procedure
below.
Looks like if you do any major snooping inside the case, you will run into quite a few heat-related items to replace before putting your system back together.
While this looks like a pain for people doing anything more than RAM/wireless additions, it does point to some neat heat dissipation techniques in the new iMac - and most users won't ever run into this anyway.
OK, so I borrowed the 'Lump - Stick - Rectangle' from somewhere else. :-)
:-)
I don't understand how people can be so critical of this. It is truly innovative, with a 700-800MHz G4 packed into the small package (as well as 128MB of RAM and a GeForce2 card.) The only things I don't like are the price, and the screen size. Still, it's a marvelous piece of engineering and design. If you need something else to like about it, take a gander at all the ports in the back. Definitely impressive.
Don't like it? don't buy it. But at least acknowledge the craftsmanship and vision.
(No, I am not affected by the reality distortion field... otherwise I would have put down the money and bought one, and not seen any shortcomings.
fair.org counterpunch.com truthout.com indymedia.org salon.com
eff.org guerrilla.net debian.org gentoo.org
Frankly, this is the dumbest design decision ever. If you're trying to make a "simple" computer, why use a dongle that consumers will most certainly forget or lose? What could be more simple than the same connector used on 99% of the world's personal computers?
This is extra stupid, since there is plenty of space to put a standard VGA-out connector on both systems. Additionally, making a custom port and dongle adds to the cost of an already expensive computer.
I'm all for design improvements, but there is no point being proprietary just for the sake of being different.
Re: the guy that had the sketches of a similar iMac last summer.
If he even remotely claims Apple 'stole' his ideas, he should be laughed off the face of the planet.
Consider the incredible number of conceptual drawings and sketches about possible new iMac designs that have made the rounds in the last two years. Combine that with the fact that every computer needs a spot for ports, a display, and something to contain the cpu/drives/ram/etc. Now, combine that with the industrial design directions Apple set by announcing the death of the CRT [last may @ WWDC, I believe] and the icebook/tibook look and feel.
All told, it is no surprise that *one* of the myriad concept sketches that appeared on the net look similar! As innovative as Apple is, they have yet to be able to entirely break the bonds of reality (i.e. say, a completely detached floating display).
As well, the guy *sent* his concept sketches to Apple-- including to Steve Jobs. Apple's policy on such matters is quite clear; anything submitted becomes the property of Apple and they can do whatever they bloody well please with it-- including giving it to a competitor, if they saw fit to do so.
Submitted for your approval, an Onion-like story on the subject:
Honey I Melted The iMac
The picture of the iMac with a lamp shade on it is worth the click.
I like Macs. I really do. I'm particularly partial to the all-in-one models. I've got an SE and an SE/30, and I bought the original Bondi Blue iMac the day they went on sale. So when I heard about this new iMac, I was excited. The pictures were tantalizing, but the thing that really thrilled me were the specs. There's an awful lot under the hood! Last Friday, I visited my local Apple Store to see this baby for myself. A small scheming portion of my mind was already wondering if Uncle Sam's Tax Return might defray the costs of a new computer. And then I saw it. I was deeply disappointed. It's ugly. It's clunky. The picture made it look light and airy, but in person it looked like a heavy white lump with an oversized nickel-plated pipe connecting a flat panel in a big lucite frame. (What is it with Apple and white plastic, anyway? Does Ives live in a house without dust and grubby-fingered kids?) There's no accounting for taste, and I may be an uncircumcised philistine with aesthetic sense, but I've never had such a negative reaction to a computer before. Maybe the next one... "Botticelli ain't a wine, you dolt! It's a cheese!"
When all's said and done, it's just a machine, designed to perform certain tasks efficiently. Now, perhaps Apple has user-interface design down a little better than Microsoft or anyone in the Linux/UNIX community, but, at the end of the day, if I've gotten all my work done, I couldn't care less what the machine I'm doing the work on looks like. Personally, I find OS X slow and too full of eye-candy. I find Windows XP to be the same way. Hopefully, this isn't the start of a trend.
If I want something nice to look at, I'll get a painting or an office with a window. Computers are tools.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
You get what you pay for.
Troll ?
Somehow Jobs' remarks always seem to jumpstart my brain, if nothing else. Of the first iMac he said "It looks like it's from another planet". And oddly enough my first reaction to the new iMac after reading the article was "Hey, its a skutter holding an LCD!". That makes alot more sense if you've ever seen Red Dwarf.
Gawd, now gotta find a program that deals in these pointless file formats...
The iMac's been under development for 2 years. This guy posted his pictures only 6 months ago. Six months is not enough time to develop a new computer, at least at Apple's usual pace.
Is this true? If so, why?
I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing. -- Thomas Jefferson
I must admit, apple knows computer design, but that's about how far I'd go. I'll newer buy an out-of-the-box-computer (specially not a proprietary like the iMac) and I'll therefor miss out on some neet out-of-the-box-cabinets and that's a shame. I won't claime to care about design that much, I'm really pretty ignorant, but the iMac looks cool. Why can't companies like AOpen start making some smart-solution, smart-looking cabinets?
Look a monkey!
When I use Mac OS X, I can *feel* that somewhere in Cupertino there's an English major who was losing sleep at nights trying to make the text in the dialog boxes as clear and understandable as possible. When was the last time you felt that way about the latest d/l off of sourceforge?
While I agree about SourceForge, OSX is a step down from OS9 in dialog box text (and help in general).
For example, I just love the error "No file services are available at the URL . Try again later or try another URL (server returned error 1)" OSX returns this when it can't connect to an SMB share no matter what the actual reason. Wrong password? Invalid user? No such share? Everything gets the same error.
Worse, the MacOSX Help files are nicely written, but there are so few of them that help is very close to useless. It will tell you how to copy a file, but for anything more complex you're basically SOL.
Still, compared to the average Open Source app, they're amazing.
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
However, since the introduction of the PPC, mac hardware has generally been respected by the geek community. Now that macs run OS X, the geeks like it even more.
However, there's always going to be somebody who has to bash the mac for whatever reason. But lets face it, in the year 2002 you can't show how cool of a computer user you are by simply bashing Apple.
Now Microsoft on the other hand....
/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
i think the point is that truly well designed functionality has intrinsic aesthetic appeal.
i mean, there are often many solutions to a problem - but the one that has the most thought and work applied to it is usually the most elegant.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
Mostly Mac geeks, since many of us are graphic designers. It's no coincidence ;)
"Reality is just a convenient measure of complexity" -Alvy Ray Smith
This actually started me thinking about Compaq. Not today's company, but the company 5 or 10 years ago. They used to be a huge amount of thought into their computers, trying to make them the best they could be. You know what happened?
I freaking despised them.
Yes, they were well built. Yes, they managed to typically squeeze another 5-10% performance over their competitors. But to do all that, very often they used non-standard components. They had wacky partitions on the hard drives that for extra management functions. I believe they even had special "Compaq memory" (I could be misremembering the latter).
It was a total pain in the ass, and for many components there was only one place to go: Compaq, and the parts were very expensive.
I'm all in favor of better, but when it comes to computers, I think I would rather have better AND standard AND reasonably priced. The thing about Apple is that they don't make computers for "the rest of us", they make computers for the 3% of the population who like shopping at boutiques.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
OSX + iTunes Visuals + "Dark Side of the Moon" = Transcendence
The trouble with LCD iMacs is the education market. Schools don't buy iMacs just because they are cheaper than iBooks, they buy them because they are more durable.The abuse that a computer takes in a school setting is enough to make me cringe.
Still, I like the idea of having a LCD iMac. It would be cool for me, I'm just not sure that it will work in the education market. (Yeah, I know. Maine bought 38,600 iBooks recently. Still, most schools buy iMacs.)
Despite that,are we facing an Apple come back?
Think about what they've done in the past couple years:
- Nice hardware, growing in leaps and bounds as the market for those things matures (pc133, yes it was late, and yes, it's slower than DDR, but hey, better than pc100), nice processors, removing all relic hardware as necessary (USB instead of ADB, etc). Apple has always done this.
- Making the powerbook g4 was the next step, making a laptop just slightly less powerful than a desktop, *AND* has a battery life to speak of.
- Nice software: OS X. BSD core. No need for them to figure out how to reinvent the wheel with their crappy old OS's--Simply change a few widgets, and call it Darwin, then add a GUI, and Voila! instant OS. With a *LOT* of software available, not to mention the 20 billion BSD hackers, the people that'll keep the Darwin OS up to snuff.
- Totally reengineered interface--Finally a command line that doesn't suck! And for that matter, a GUI that doesn't suck! And multitasking! And all sorts of neat widgets that make techies and non-techies alike scream out "I WANT ONE!"
- Giving computers to schools, making great leaps in hardware, standardizing their video system. I see this as a incredibly brilliant move for Jobs.
All in all, more power to them... They may live, they may struggle, or they may die. They are pushing the user's into a whole new realm; DVD-
R's in affordable systems, laptops that don't suck, and keeping up with technology a lot better than they used to.
A good interview though
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
I'll take an aluminum PC tower case with a nice 1Gig+ CPU, 512MB of memory, Radeon AIW card, CD-RW, DVD, and a RAID array of 4 hard drives. And a separate, cheap, upgradable monitor. Try stuffing that in your iMac!
Don't nerds stress function over form any more?
Need to look that one up? Me too. The Anglepoise table lamp, modeled on the muscles and bones of human limbs, was invented by George Carwardine in 1933. You know your standard adjustable desk lamp? That's an Anglepoise-derived design.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Observing the public reaction, it is clear that like its predecessor it is destined to invade and fully occupy the public imagination for the next couple of years. Bully for Apple, and for Ive. And it will be perfect for my parents.
But what I've realized I'd personally like most is just the detached hub. I'll buy my own flat-screen thank you (maybe an Apple Cinema display). I don't need more than one viewing angle and I'd rather put the hub itself off towards the back of the desk. Just need the LCD, keyboard, mouse/trackball and speakers up front.
I hope they're planning on releasing this iHub on its own, some time soon. It would be a sweet machine - short on expandability, but as this NYT article points out, at a better price point (and a helluva lot more aesthetic) than the G4 towers.
-Renard
The new iMac is like Bang & Olufsen stereo components. It's a really artistic vision of technology yet, when compared to the competition, it is overpriced for the performance that it offers.
I see the new iMac as being a fashion accessory or a lifestyle statement rather than a serious computer. It will be seen in chic, modern, (pretentious) apartments, sharing space with the aforementioned Bang & Olufsen stereos, wall-hanging plasma display televisions, and expensive, but unused, Questar telescopes.
I'm a function over form kind of guy. I'd rather have a normal enclosure and a motherboard with lots of standard expansion slots so that I can expand my computer to meet my needs. I'd rather spend $300 for a 19" monitor than spend the same amount for a chic but small 15" LCD. I don't care if my PC is unattractive. It's a computer, not a girlfriend or wife.
Not to mention a few bits of hardware, most notably firewire and built-in Airport compatibility.
Actually I think Jobs is right anyway--most folks will going for the top-of-the-line model, which IS price competitive, using only a hardware-to-hardware comparison. The software becomes a free bonus, making the iMac not only the best home computer available, but also the best VALUE.
ScienceSeeker.org
First of all, the current PowerPC architecture is said to be only about 30 to 50 percent faster MHz for MHz than Intel for tasks that don't involve heavy digital signal processing. (The common Photoshop filter benchmarks that Apple continues to bring up are a form of DSP.) This means you're going to get a 1200 PR out of a Mac with an 800 MHz CPU, in comparison to upwards of 1800 out of PCs using the latest AMD or Intel parts.
Second of all, these new iMac computers lack memory bandwidth. Their 100 MHz bus can move much less data than the 133 MHz bus of a cheap Dell computer.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Does this mean I could have this cool new mac and run Windows apps on it without having to emulate MS windows?
I beg of the programmers and techs out there try to move beyond it.
First, let all the people who write apps swear an oath that they will forevermore document what they create to a high standard. If this is a start, then the cooler boxes may follow, perhaps in the next generation.
That new internet coputer based on Mozilla is a glimpse of what this "next generation" could look like.
No one is compelled to put up with "bland boxes" and "difficult" software like the notorius Mplayer, or any of the other "break it to find out how it works" stuff. There are other options. If you have the time/brains/cash.
Undocumented software, wires everywhere, bespoke systems. This is part of the culture. If one cant live with this, then one can to go to the places where everything is made beautifuly and beautifully easy.
I loved the part of the article about Gateway being on the ropes. The solution for them is clear; get a world class deigner in house to revamp and vitalize the product range, and then customize one of the advanced Linux distributions, brand it, and ship every product with it without exception.
They would then have something to offer the public, something to fire the imagination... and it might even be cheaper in the stores since they dont have to pay royalties for the OS.
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
I think the insides of this iMac must look really cool, so it makes me wonder why the shell is opaque and white. Maybe they could make future models candy-colored and translucent? You probably wouldn't see too deep into the thing because it's so cramped, but it would be cool anyway. Well, just an idea...
I mean, it is covered by a decent warranty. But more importantly, your argument shouldn't be specific to apple, but to the all-in-one PC in general (which includes laptops). How is it any different from dropping a pixel or blowing out a speaker in one of those?
Like always, your decision to purchase a computer should always factor in looks and function with reliability and upgradeability. It's purely a subjective opinion of which end of that scale you should lean towards. YMMV.
Personally, I see that swivel
Actually, I have seen a 'flat-screen-on-a-stalk-and-everything-in-the-base ' intel-based PC more than one year ago, somewhere in Germany. But can't remember the name of the company selling them ( big one, maybe US based, does also network stuff), let alone to provide any URL.
I quite liked it, except for not expandability and price.
Ciao
----
FB
They kept the base original iMac, dropped the price to $799. Then they took the second original iMac, and dropped the price to $999. Difference is in cpu speed, memory, and hard drive.
So, they still have the durable iMac CRT for those that need it.
__nether
STEVE JOBS ON DESIGN
Fortune Magazine: What has always distinguished the products of the
companies you've led is the design aesthetic. Is your obsession with
design an inborn instinct or what?
Steve Jobs: We don't have good language to talk about this kind of thing.
In most people's vocabularies, design means veneer. It's interior
decorating. It's the fabric of the curtains and the sofa. But to me,
nothing could be further from the meaning of design. Design is the
fundamental soul of a man-made creation that ends up expressing itself in
successive outer layers of the product or service. The iMac is not just
the colour or translucence or the shape of the shell. The essence of the
iMac is to be the finest possible consumer computer in which each element
plays together.
On our latest iMac, I was adamant that we get rid of the fan, because it
is much more pleasant to work on a computer that doesn't drone all the
time. That was not just "Steve's decision" to pull out the fan; it
required an enormous engineering effort to figure out how to manage power
better and do a better job of thermal conduction through the machine. That
is the furthest thing from veneer. It was at the core of the product the
day we started.
This is what customers pay us for--to sweat all these details so it's easy
and pleasant for them to use our computers. We're supposed to be really
good at this. That doesn't mean we don't listen to customers, but it's
hard for them to tell you what they want when they've never seen anything
remotely like it.
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/2000/01/24/app6.
--
If I want something nice to look at, I'll get a painting or an office with a window. Computers are tools.
You're a tool.
Henry Ford said the same thing about the first car. Basically it was a Tractor high-bread that will allow people to drive the store in the same vehicle after plowing the fields.
I happen to appreciate the elegance of something like OSX. It's out of my face so I can get the work I need done, done quicker.
The rumors about it being slow or buggy are just plain fud. They have fixed almost all of the anoying problems after version 10.1 and it's just getting better.
I find that I am actually able to do the things using the tools I am used to (Unix/GNU tools that I am used to such as VIM, wget, Lynx, php/apache, etc.) I can also play games (Wolfenstein) that I love, and co-habitate with my co-workers that are a MS Office establishment.
I don't know how you can say that interface improvments are regressive. The UNIX/Linux world would still be using TWM if we all kept that mentality.
The point is form *is* function... for many people. The iMac does offer exceptional "performance", but along a different axis than raw CPU performance. I don't see it in the same category as B&O stereo equipment. Look, for those who don't demand that a computer crank out x-many MIPS for their RC5 or whatever, and want a computer for home use, designed specifically with the consumer in mind, why is this not an ideal solution? You are paying for form-functionality and *quality* that is hard to come by. Yes, this iMac have less CPU speed that some DIY computer for hundreds cheaper, but for many, the iMac will be well worth the cost for the way it performs in the home. (Friendly on the eyes, adjusts to your workstyle and includes all the CD/DVD Burning, MP3 playing, digital photography management software a home user needs)
I thought a more squarish (dare I say cube-shaped) base would have allowed for built in stereo speakers. And I think it would have looked a lot cooler than the lump base.
The Independent interview with Ive finally explained it for me:
Well if lump is the most functional form for the base, then lump it is. As Ive mentions in the interview, you don't really appreciate all the subtle decisions that go into an industrial design until you start to understand all the constraints.
I like the G4 iMac more now.
It doesn't have to come at the expense of it though. If you spend the time to make what your doing well designed you will have both. Granted, when you set out to design something, function is the first thing you are concerned with but eventually it must have have beauty. That is what seperates the great engineers from the regular ones.
An example is reading. When you start out it's all functional reading to make sure you have comprehension etc. but eventually when you master that you take on great literary works, poetry and deep thought. But I truely beleive that form is just as important in the end product.
"Allez Cusine!"
I've ordered an iMac mainly because it's not much larger than the Pismo PowerBook I used to put on my desk, compared now with the Blue & White G3 I have (which takes up a lot more space). Then you have the G4 under the dome, with SuperDrive, and 60GB of space and it looks like a good computer.
I don't use my computer for gaming so much, anyway. That's what my PS2 is for. And, I'm more interested in using my computer for organizing media (pictures, mp3s, movies) and using it as my MP3 playback server using iHam on iRye. The iMac will serve this purpose very well.
Besides, it looks great.
It takes many man-years to design a quality product with good "fit and finish", which is pleasing, and which is well thought out for the task it is intended for.
However, in the computing world, network effects almost totally dominate all other considerations. A low-quality early product will beat out an incompatible late-arriving better product. What people want from their tools varies rapidly over time, so flexibility is more important than static perfection.
If no new hardware or software technologies were invented for the next five years, people probably would start to migrate towards choosing hardware and software for aesthetic and lifestyle reasons; might be able to make valid long-term comparisons of what they feel like to use; might be able to better justify changing the way they do things.
But not any time soon.
Is that true? I suspect that when small children
read picture books, they don't just pick up the
basics of reading -- they learn how stories are
structured, along with a raft of other cultural
cruft.
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
Basically, Apple has changed the layout of their hardware YET AGAIN, throwing in more proprietary hardware that you will NEVER be able to replace or upgrade, put all of that crap into a round base that will STILL take up as much space as a regular cube or flat desktop machine, AND added a butt-ugly LCD monitor with a clear plastic corona.
And some of you losers are arguing FOR the machine?
But to do all that, very often they used non-standard components.
If you mean "standard" is whatever the lowest common denominator is, then yes, to improve and become better, you must be non-standard. But if you can do it better, you can become the new standard. There was a time people like you would have derided Firewire as "non-standard", but this is what Apple does best, invents the new standards that others will copy.
I want my products to be better, not just standard.
Lies about crimes
Either that or it becomes the most inscrutably byzantine contraption you can imagine. Rube Goldberg devices may have a great deal of thought and work applied, but they are ultimately useless.
That simply is not true. We are obsessed with quantification, as Ive points out. You trust doctors to explain and cure illnesses, and you don't know the science behind it. You probably believe that the colors of your dwelling can have an effect on your emotional disposition
.. sometimes you must carry them, or tilt them, or upgrade them, etc) of tools have an effect on their interaction with them is one of the best illustrations of the complete lack of faith that North Americans exhibit in the importance of design. You may not be able to count your 'happy points', but to suggest that the look of your computer has absolutely no effect on you is rediculous. Just because you can't point the 'HowMuchMoneyDidItMakeMe-o-meter' or the 'HowHappyAmI-o-meter' at the box doesn't mean that the asthetics of a tool do not effect your efficiency, levels of stress, or usage endurance. To listen to designers and architechs proudly explain how the design of a physical environment or tool affected the behaviour of the users and dewellers of their creations is to understand that the less you think about design, and simply place your faith in 'the experts', the more successful it tends to be.
That people do not believe that the asthetics (nevermind that the physical representation, ie, design of a computer does not exist in a vacuum
The speed at which you dismiss design vs. function suggests to me that you've never really given thought or faith to design, and thus never really experienced the benifits of proper industrial design. There is no clear line between function and asthetic, as you put it; a painting is a tool to stimulate parts of your brain that you want to stimulate, where as a tool is no good unless you can stand to look at it, use it, and spend time with it. Given the increase in stress of the average office worker, and the number of hours he or she spends with the tool known as the computer, it is a shame that people seem so quick to dismiss evironmental factors as having an effect on their emotional disposition.
To take it a step furthur, your bedroom is nothing but a tool to get some sleep in, so why not paint it completely black?
"Old man yells at systemd"
I generally agree with you about the paucity of on-disk help files for Mac OS X (there's lot more info in the Knowledge Base), Mac OS 9 wasn't any more of a paragon of informative error messages. Witness the super-helpful 'Sorry, the application "Internet Explorer'" unexpectedly quit because an error of type [1, 2, or 3] occurred.'
Now *I* know that was probably an out of memory error or an extension conflict, but that comes from a lot of reading and experience. The average user calls someone like me and says words to the effect of 'WTF?!'
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
I just wanna say thanks on behalf of all retail stores that sell computers. We *really* like when people will start bringing these things back in droves because theres a bad pixel. When you try to explain that bad piexls happen and unless theres a lot of them theres nothing wrong with the unit. I've never seen a lcd monitor that costs less than 500 dollars without a bad pixel. So thanks.
Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
The PC is no different. The personal computer is simply going through the same cycle automobiles went through. Cars started out as gadgets for the rick, then ford found a way to mass produce it and sell it at an affordable price. Later on, style became more important because everyone had figured out to build cars.
The PC industry is also reaching the same point and has to evolve. Now that processors speed is sufficient for 90% of the typical user's needs, raw power is not an important factor. Just as most people buy Honda's because of reliability and style, people will begin to change their buying habits to reflect the change. Now that most people have atleast 1 computer in their house, the difference will be which one blends in their their furniture, color scheme and life style.
The change is inevitable. There will always be people who buy trucks because it is the most functional, just as the tower is the most flexible. But for most people, a car is a status symbol just as the computer will be in 20 years.
there have been pc-compat. all-in-one systems out for years now... check out the Gateway Profile 3 http://www.gateway.com/home/prod/hm_profile3sp_Pro dDetail.shtml
"Zen and the art..." was a very poor book.
If you missed it, the question it concerns itself with is `What is quality?`. Rather than the answer `Its subjective - whatever you think it is`, it waffles on for hundreds of pages about motor bikes, why man-made eyesores actually arent eyesores because they are functional, and ends up with the character who represents the author going mad (probably cos he just couldnt stuff himself any more full of shit).
If you`ve taken too much acid, or you`re going mad, or pissed off at the work, i`d suggest you miss this book and move onto something by the Dalai Lama, or just go for a walk. This book isnt going to help you.
I must agree :)
512M memory?: IMacs come with 256M, upgradable to 1G ... and memory is cheap.
Radeon AIW card?: NVIDIA GeoForce2, combined with Velocity Engine in the CPU.
CD-RW, DVD?: The high-end iMac has this built in, including DVD-write ability.
RAID array of 4 hard drives?: That's the kind of thing IEEE 1394 ports are for.
Beside's which, it's a consumer computer. The functionality it's already got is bordering on overkill.
Call me silly, but I was just wondering if the "i" in iMac was for its designer, Ive?
Food for thought... eat it! Most of you are starving.
It guess it would be easy to assume he works for Apple, but many times designs like this are made by FrogDesign or another firm. I am surprised the article does not refer to where he works.
Any idea who Jonathan works for?
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
link to text online: http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~ciochett/lit/zen.html
Everytime I read this it means something different. Now I think it's about programming, but that's probably because I'm a programmer :) It's not the best Philosophy book I've read, but it is the best book I've read.
DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
That's Apple Fever. A $1,299 UNIX work station? If Genetech bought 1,000, there must be something to them.
Read this
It is happening and O'Reilly knows it. He wouldn't embrace something if he didn't see the potential.
Just think how Apple has transformed the computing experience since 1998. Love them or hate them, the iMac and OSX are the best things that has happened to computers in a long time. they have forced other companies to play catch up. Got them off dead center.
the Linux community must also thank Apple for getting people to think outside the MS box.
photosMy Photostream
Remember, there are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
i think the point is that truly well designed functionality has intrinsic aesthetic appeal.
I completely agree with you. Take a look at the airplains. Thier beauty is a side effect of well designed functionality.
What stultifyingly smug bullshit!
Yes, I can appreciate design as form and function. Ever taken a close look at a Mauser 98K rifle or a Browning High Power 9mm pistol... absolutely beautiful designs... as are many of the tools we have for killing each other. When you run out of ammo the bolt or slide lock open... insert a loaded magazine or clip and relase the catch or close the bolt... ready. No voice saying "It's not my fault..." no cryptic message "The Finder has quit due to an error of type -47"
It is unfair to compare the perceived quality of projects on Sourceforge by people that had an itch to scratch... with paid professionals at some computer manufacturer. Yet Apple could learn a thing or two from some of the projects on Sourceforge. The better ones usually have an active community of developers AND users that provide feedback and improvements. Certainly the projects don't have the resources to pass all their documentation, if any, past a sleepless English major before publishing.
Lawless are they that make their will their law.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
Cause you're getting old and affraid of not being cool?.
Cause personally, it sucks.
Excuse me? check out the specs at www.apple.com, they come with 2 hardon karmon speakers, is that not good enough for you? They dont come with a sub woofer but you can easily buy the hardon karmon designed iSub that is desiged to intergrate with the mac.
I really cant figure out where you were coming from on this one?
Gelernter's "Machine Beauty" is another great book about combining beauty and function.
When did science and art separate? Socrates and Divinci would not be happy with the PC beige box.
Oliver's army is here to stay Oliver's army are on their way And I would rather be anywhere else But here today
I fou read the artilce fully it says:
>British-born, Ive is 35 next month, and has been chief of design at Apple for four years now, leading a
>hand-picked team from around the world ("quite a few of them British").
Either that or it becomes the most inscrutably byzantine contraption you can imagine. Rube Goldberg devices may have a great deal of thought and work applied, but they are ultimately useless.
I'm sorry, you misunderstood my point - and maybe i could have been clearer... good effort seems result in concise, clean design. bad effort... seems to have the opposite effect.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
i have yet to see an imac go for under $300 on ebay. i would know... i've been looking for one for quite some time now.
Yes but look at the Dodge Viper. It looks super-cool(and fast) but has the body has the same drag as a Blazer.
Non gratis rodentus anus
It is unfair to compare the perceived quality of projects on Sourceforge by people that had an itch to scratch... with paid professionals at some computer manufacturer.
The comment regarding Sourceforge projects wasn't intended as a slight against those authors per se... I just wanted to bring an example of something that is within our power to change and improve upon. (As opposed to lamenting the poor wording in any number of MS products...)
The better ones usually have an active community of developers AND users that provide feedback and improvements.
What... and Apple doesn't?
------------
"...and Maddest of all, to see Life as it Is, and not as it Should Be."
I've been meaning to pull all the IDE drives out of my iMac and run everything from external disks, just for the sheer irony of it. It'll boot from FireWire, after all....
And if you've never seen a machine with all external disk, try one of those diskless Suns from years ago. Or diskless RS/6000 or HP boxes. Or the CEMCORP Icon, another diskless machine from even longer ago. Or... well, you get the idea.
And I don't miss any of those machines!
And just to stay on-topic, I have no idea how to decide if I should get the 14" iBook or the new iMac with the SuperDrive....
Surely any rabid sentiment is a useless way of showing what a cool computer user you are. The best way to show how cool you are is to create something, rather than degrade something else, be it Microsoft, Apple or Linux.
All the user upgradable components (memory, airport) are easily accessed and don't require thermal paste. It's only if you want to get into the serious guts of the machine. This is because of the internal power supply, which was a high demand item from cube users.
ScienceSeeker.org
I think the Mac dongle also takes power for the monitor, giving you one monitor cable instead of two.
Why, that's a brilliant idea! It would allow people to haul around 19" CRTs, and run them off the iBook's battery, reducing the battery life to less than an hour.
The dongle I have simply provides a standard vga port.
The teachers in my school district use video projectors all the time. In other respects they are "low end consumer" users but the inclusion of this feature means we don't have to buy higher scale Macs. One of Apple's strongest markets is education and they do listen to their needs. I agree that the dongle is questionable but the inclusion of the feature IS wise.
You are quoting a Microsoft software designer on software design. Wow, that has to redefine either "guts" or "insanity".
Every machine is the creation of a human. Some of those creations have a beauty and functionality surpassing that of others. Part of that can be unquanitifiable, and it is that that is a machine's "soul" - the very essence of what makes it different that cannot be summed up in numbers. Not every human has a mystical bent, but the vast majority do, even in this cynical time. This is why most people buy tables, instead of putting plywood on a bunch of cinderblocks.
Obviously, because you've never used either, and from this and your other comments have no idea what constitutes worth.
Cocoa, meaning the frameworks and objective C language in this case, is the best object oriented programming environment I've ever seen. Perhaps the problem is that it is not difficult enough for you to use? Perhaps you couldn't get enough "cool points" by accomplishing something easily, when there is a harder way to do it?
And "not where the money is"??? OK, it's true you can make more money if you use VB than if you program in Cocoa. I'm not aware of any decent programs written in VB, or any decent programmers who use VB, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
-- Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong. - Dire Straits
You do realize that you're an idiot, don't you? Cocoa is not Java for anything. Cocoa is an API for Mac OS. You can program for the API in two languages: Objective-C and Java.
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Yes, but you don't want messages to be less than definitive. I think "probably ran out of memory" is even worse.
>Cocoa is "Java for kids"
You seem to be a little confused. What you're talking about is now called Stagecast.
Everyone else is talking about Cocoa, Apple's Objective-C based API.
How the fuck is a 800MHz G4 an "underpower cpu"? It's a holy terror when there's work to do, except it's idle 99.99999% of the time. Have you used one of these?
Ok; everyone thought I was crazy when I mentioned this after the keynote but I've finally managed to track down and scan an old copy of MacWorld Magazine from May 1995. The issue features a number of Apple prototypes, but the one on the cover is very much like the new iMac. I am convinced that Jonathan Ive was inspired by this design.
"Leave the strategizing to those of us with planet-sized brains." -Tycho
Apple's industrial design studio, where Ive and his team work, is in a secluded building across the street from Apple's main campus in Cupertino.
This helps to keep their designs out of the public eye, but it also gives them a great deal more freedom to explore design ideas without mad interdepartmental pressures... if you've ever had a person with no experience in your field looking over your shoulder while you work and making suggestions, you appreciate this arrangement.
Pad gai is rice noodles, chicken, lettuce and fried egg. If there were a lot of rice noodles on top of some lettuce with chicken and egg bits mixed in, it was quite possibly pad gai.
EVERYTHING in the computer community (Mac or store-bought PC) is proprietary. Most people assume that "proprietary" in terms of Macintosh means "closed box" or "non-PC," and this isn't the case.
PCs, in their ultimate basic designs, are supposed to work identically--to be a clone. A hand-built PC (like the Athlon box I just built to play what few good games which come out that aren't available for Macs, such as Age of Sail 2 [rocks] or Half Life) is great, but unless EVERYONE used the exact same motherboard and parts from the same manufacturers, they aren't strictly clones. Technically, your home-built is unique and closed to others--proprietary, because only YOU know what's inside it.
And look at store-bought PCs, which are supposed to be clones, but each manufacturer adds a widget or two here and there to add market appeal over other competitors PCs, which also do the same. If you haven't tried to install Windows on a Compaq without using Compaq's own CDs, you have never experienced the true meaning and heartbreak of "proprietary."
And Macs aren't even "closed box" anymore. As far as the iMac goes, Apple doesn't expect you to crack open your iMac anymore than Toastmaster expects you to crack open their toasters. It's for a logical reason (the same reason why you pay a bit more for a Macintosh): Everything you need is already there, from the laptops to the desktops (extra RAM and maybe drive space included). Thinking a Mac is proprietary is like thinking that your Porsche needs a V8 and one of those Calvin-pissing-on-a-BMW logos.
With the exception of the logic board (motherboard), open a Power Mac desktop and you'll find the same Matrox IDE drives, the same nVidia video, the same SDRAM, and similar expandability. The only difference (OS aside) is that the computer is integrated with finer quality than that $50 ATX motherboard we grabbed from "Chips-R-Us." That's what we pay for.
If you use Linux (and I know most of us do), we experience the sheer hell of PC propriety every time we try to install an OS on a store-bought system that's been modified to work with Microsoft Windows and not for any other OS, period.
Remember the old days where every computer maker made a PC and their own OS? Only Apple does that now for mere mortals (Sun, SGI, and other unique non-Windows PCs excluded but acknowledged). Makes me still wish someone would make a PC designed only for the ultimate Geek--the Unix family user, to end this argument.
/.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Hey Ive... how about giving me something to replace my Newton. This iMac stuff is for the birds. And the iPod? The guy who invented *that* is aPud....
It would appear from your response to "Zen" that you are to uptight to get "it"
Don't ask Jonathan that question. He didn't make that decision.
Ask Apple's VP of Hardware, Jon Rubenstein.
Guns don't kill people - bullets do!
Ok, I've never used a Mac (besides playing on it at Fry's), and probably won't be interested by it in the near future. But I heard this, on the radio, a few days ago, while sitting in my friend's car (sorry, can't remember the name of the guy, nor the radio station):
This thing is more like for teenage girls. Look at the design, it's like the plastic mirror for kids. If you have teenage girls in your house, you know what I mean. For the wrong market, that is, geeks like us, this reminds me of a plastic mirror on a scoop of cow shit!
How about headphones? $20 headphones sound better than hundreds of dollars worth of speakers, and with a Dolby Headphone decoder for DVDs they should sound even better. Apple should just pack the iPod's earbuds with all of their desktops and laptops and brag about the sound.
From the article:
(referring to Ive) He often struggles for words, sounding like a man trying to describe God to a world without religion.
How many ways can one interperet that?
One might be God == Jobs and "a world without religion" == the unwashed Windows masses.
Or is it simply a metaphor for how futile it is trying to tech your mother how to program her VCR?
The better ones usually have an active community of developers AND users that provide feedback and improvements.
What... and Apple doesn't?
Well I am sure you read the boards and remember how much people complained about features in OS-X... like "Where are the spring loaded folders?" People have been whining about that feature for over a year and it still has not appeared. Apple is paid by its customers to respond to their needs and the customers get silence. Occasionally SJ tosses them a bone like a pretty new machine... it does not make their productivity or the "user experience" much better does it?
I have heard arguments for the single button mouse (even the no-button mouse)... but why are there keys on the keyboard that don't do anything or not what the user might expect? The Home and End key for example. Heck they even work in my bash shell.
I think that the new iMac is elegant in design but it is nothing new... there have been all-in-one flatscreen PCs out for several years already. I even liked the Cube... the guts were very well designed (except for the buggy power switch). But all that elegance quickly turns ugly as soon as you add a few obligatory peripherals and your nice clean desktop becomes a snarled mass of USB/Firewire/network/power cables.
Apple barely has any documentation... their MacOS-X comes with a silly little booklet on how to get the thing installed... all the rest you have to figure out or read the forums. I got the new iTunes2 update the other day and thought I would try it out. I took me a while to figure out that I had to drag-n-drop the MP3s I wanted to play on to the app. Perhaps that is allways obvious to a mac user but for me it isn't. I can drop CDs all day long on my CD player... but it won't play them until I open the drive door (play list) and put a CD in it.
I have since replaced the very poor quality mice that came with the iMacs and G4s I use with Logitech Optical wheelmice. Translucent M&M or transparent be damned, I need something that works.
I know that many of the Apple faithful feel that nothing can replace their UI and that it is the best designed in the world but there are a lot of us that don't particularly care for it. I find it kludgy like an over simplified toy. I don't think Apple will ever have a problem selling their stuff to Apple fans... especially if they keep making lickable hardware and interfaces. I think it just won't do all that much to expand their current market.
I suppose I am just sore at Apple about their lack of support for their products... I am forced to use them in my work... it is not by choice.
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
The old iMac weighs 45 lbs. If the new one is 20 that's a big improvement.
That document appears to be gone, anyone have it anywhere else?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
why did i waste time reading that? sheesh.
oh, the hardware is not slow.
Remember, there are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
So, SirSlud, sez:
"Of course, it goes without saying that North Americans..."
Will you PLEASE stop lumping all "North Americans" together as if we're all some monolithic culture.
The Canadian Inuits in the Arctic, are as different from the Campasinos in Mexico, are as differerent as everyone geographically between them.
I'm sure the French would be upset if someone lumped them in with the Germans, the Spanish and the English as "All you Europeans".
You're just as narrow-minded as the "North Americans" you so excoriate.
How very sad.
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
Remember, there are no stupid questions. But there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
Give me a break. Can you please stop lumping the non-inuits living in the Arctic with the Canadian Inuits? I'm not excoriating North Americans (I am one .. actually, I'm Canadian); however, I was referring to a set of values that apply most appropriately within the context of North Americans. I can feel free to lump us together when I'm discussing certain values that are by and large unique to North America. And if you don't like generalizations, get used to them. You cannot talk without generalizing.
BTW, do you know what constitutes a valid generalization? It's a point or example or whathave you that holds true more often for the generalization than the exception(s). I maintain that my generalization is valid, discounting cultures within North America that do not participate in mainstream consumerism. Just don't lose sight of the fact that using a generalization prooves exactly what you're so eager to point out: that exceptions exist, and that the generalization doesn't always apply.
OF COURSE IT DOESN'T ALWAYS APPLY, DUMMY, THATS WHAT MAKES IT A GENERALIZATION.
I'll be sure to troll your posts and make sure you're not generalizing about Apple Users being lumped in with the rest of those very different Computer Users. And I'll make sure you never say "people", cause there are "women" in a group of "people", and "men", and "men arn't the same as women"!
Get it? For the context of my point, it was suitable to group North Americans together. For the most part, the behaviour I was describing is not particularly unique to any given subculture of North Americans.
"Old man yells at systemd"
I just hate the cheap plastic look, ok but not as much as the dome look. The newer cars out there, the aztec focus the beetle and most of the others have this dome look that look like constipated turd droplets. That's not even the worst part, these designs usually get in the way(ex. The rear hatch on the aztec). Anyway what I'm getting at is I hope apple goes for tasteful style but allowing for better usability to their hardware, the dome may look nice but it uses too much space and the iMac mice are horrible to use for more than 5 minutes.
so what your saying is you have know idea about the value of Industrial design? What is the difference between Apple's design team and the painter's processes? Why is a computer automatically unworthy of creative effort in it's design?
Blazer, Coefficient of Drag: 0.45
'89 RX-7 (what I drive): 0.31
'94 RX-7: 0.28!
'98 Ferrari Maranello: 0.33
'99 Corvette: 0.31
'99 Porsche 996: 0.31
It's a buzzword for computing methods that you don't notice. While it isn't really valid for computers that you are supposed to interact with as a computer (but it may be for an Internet terminal or word processing machine that is based on a computer), Apple is definitely not going this direction. In fact, the standard ugly beige box PC is closer. It is something that you can hide under your desk. If the keyboard and mouse are out it is an extension of your desktop workspace, and if they aren't, it's a plain black box. Of course it could be better. At the low level, it could be a lot better; parts aren't interchangeable enough. And the monitor is still an ugly sore when not in use. It should hide itself, or at least blend into the background when not in use.
That's the fault of the new imac. It's a display piece. Guess what; I don't want to show that in my house. It fits into an Ikea display, but nowhere else. It's just a slightly less ugly, almost-beige near-box on my desk, with a monitor obviously protruding. Frankly, it's a step backward. At least my PC fits under my desk and out of sight.
Perhaps Apple wants to maintain a constant and intrusive presence in your house; it builds the brand to have it sticking out all the time. For consumers, the opposite direction is better, and the Windows PC fits that a lot better.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
To expand on the analogy, the original MacOS was the 1947 Kalashnikov, OS X is a H&K G11, WinXP is an M16-A2, and Linux is a zip gun. GUIwise at least.
The human ear cannot hear a pure tone over 22KHz. However, higher frequency components can contribute to the overall waveform. (Consider a Fourier decomposition... those high-frequency components "sharpen" the waveform and deliver a closer match to the input.)
Thus, there is an audible difference created by the high-frequency components.
Boy, an opporutinity like this comes up once in a lifetime... the chance to tell a
....Read the MAN pages!!!!
It is a unix after all.
I think you missed the point of Joel's argument. You need to design the UI to be usable without reading every bit of text, but that doesn't mean that well thought out, concise text is useless. It's a great help to those people who do read it, and the shorter it is, the more likely it is to be actually read.
Writing text that is both clear and concise is hard.
What do you mean "not meant?" You say that as if there's some universal predestined law regarding tools. Manufactured things are "meant" to be whatever people decide they should be. If some people find one design more aesthetically pleasing than another, and are willing to assign more value to the more pleasing one, than that's the way it is. There is no "meant."
I got the new iTunes2 update the other day and thought I would try it out. I took me a while to figure out that I had to drag-n-drop the MP3s I wanted to play on to the app. Perhaps that is allways obvious to a mac user but for me it isn't.
I had the same problem, until I remembered that Drag-n-Drop is one of those things that works 99% of the time on Mac (and works so rarely on Windows that you don't ever bother doing it.) Compare also the UI for Stuffit or the disk image mounter with that of WinZip.
To be fair, a tenant of the Windows UI to this day is that the mouse is an optional accessory (!), and that's not true of a Mac.
The human ear cannot hear a pure tone over 22KHz. However, higher frequency components can contribute to the overall waveform. (Consider a Fourier decomposition... those high-frequency components "sharpen" the waveform and deliver a closer match to the input.)
Thus, there is an audible difference created by the high-frequency components.
Worse, the MacOSX Help files are nicely written, but there are so few of them that help is very close to useless. It will tell you how to copy a file, but for anything more complex you're basically SOL.
Yeah, no kidding. I refuse to give up my little iMac keyboard, the original laptop-style one that came with a Bondi. It's just comfortable for my hands. Well, my new Quicksilver at work requires the use of the Pro Keyboard to open the goddamned CD burner and get at the tray.
Try using Mac Help to find a solution for _that_. As best I can tell, I have three options:
1) Use the Pro Keyboard
2) Run Classic mode _solely_ for the Disk Eject app that comes on the install disk.
3) Use the eject feature of iTunes when I need to open the drive.
I'm using number three at the moment, but it's still not exactly optimal. Generally, Apple is able to make their case designs attractive and interesting without sacrificing utility. The whole "remove the eject button" idea is ludicrous, though.
(Yeah, I know, pointless rant triggered by nothing in particular. But it's a sore point.)
--saint
See. They're not more expensive because of propietary parts of pretty cases. They're more expensive because they get chicks. Geesh. You guys need to look deeper into the computer. Pretty cases and ghz only do so much, but female magnetism?! I'd glady pay twice as much as they're selling for.
you poor artless fool....it must be hell living in a world of stark black and white. certain products have 'soul' in the sense that they make human endeavour easier and more harmonius. they also evoke emotion in us. the volkswagen beetle comes to mind as does the iMac, as well as the origional mac. The interface helps a lot in that it doesn't fight you every step of the way thru tasks.
there is an elegance to the mac vision. the wintel vision is just 'sell machines cheap', coupled with a terrible user experience. people write viruses for windows simply out of contempt.
You want function over form, thereby making the assumption that you prefer form to be marginalized to the benefit of function. At least the iMac, while not perfect, has a higher attention to function than the average PC.
There is no VGA connector and no power cable for the video. Two cables gone, functionality has been improved by reducing clutter, form has been improved by removing clutter.
There is no bulky three prong power cable, but a slender laptop style power cable. Form and function.
The possibility of using an Airport card, increasing functionality and form. No wiring for networking necessary.
Problems: USB and headphone access is in the rear. Keyboard, as you mentioned, is in front. The saving grace is that the mouse is designed and intended to be attached to the keyboard, meaning only one USB cable needs to snake to the back, minimally.
Functionality: Out of the box, all you need to do is plug in the speakers in the back, the power in the back, and the keyboard in the back, for use. For maximum utility, you have Airport installed. For slightly less utility, you can plug in an ethernet cable.
Compare to the average PC: On PC power cable, one VGA power cable, one keyboard cable, one mouse cable, one speaker-sound cable, one ethernet cable, one VGA cable. That's 7 cables to the Mac's 4, maybe six vs three, for the same functionality.
GPL Deconstructed
Very good point. We all know that the PC world copies almost everything Apple does. Ask any Mac user about the first time they saw WinXP and they'll tell you they thought it was Mac OS X.
"Upon attaching the waterblock to my penis, I began to notice that I know nothing about computers." -- JRockway
Why didn't they include a wireless keyboard & mouse? Then this would have been the ultimate PC! No wires in view!
...was something I read in the introduction or foreword (I can't remember which), which pointed out that the details of motorcycle function "weren't particularly factual."
Those were the parts I enjoyed, because it really felt like I was learning something concrete, that it was presenting a new mode of learning from a book, something closer to real-world experience. It seemed to me that any subject could be presented in that way, drawing your interest into something you would normally find too boring to really pay attention to, cementing facts in your mind by giving them the qualities of important details from an exciting, dangerous experience.
To discover that the author had been slipping misconceptions in among the facts, and didn't particularly care as long as it still made a good story, was like learning that a waiter had spit in a cup of coffee I had already half-drank, and was enjoying. I felt betrayed, and no longer cared to finish the book.
While it[ubiquitous computing moniker] isn't really valid for computers that you are supposed to interact with as a computer ... Apple is definitely not going this direction.
Well, yes. Ubiqueous computing (in its' proper use) refers to the chips in the MP3/CD players, and in your car, or hidden in a digital picture frame: the low-powered processors that perform one function. And that's not what I want for my computer (nor is it the way I imagine ubiqueous computing). Apple is close to what I want, but not quite there.
I would certainly say that computers shouldn't draw your attention. Look around an automated office; generally the largest thing on anyone's desk will be the monitor, and more likely than not it will also serve as the sole focal point. That's bad. Better would be an LCD; more improvement can be gained if the screen saver is a slide show of digital photograhy. Ubiqueous would be when you aren't using the computer, you don't even notice it. I mentally extend that concept to the desktop, even though the term technically does not apply there. I want the whole thing to dissapear, but be summonable when I want, where I want.
I imagine a world where I could walk up to any screen- all blending in a ubiqueious (or nearly so) manner- and summon my personal desktop. (The method would probably be similar to the way remote X desktops work). There would be a 'trusted environment' filter- like IE provides for websites, but in reverse- that keeps me from opening internal corporate documents anywhere but at work. Other controls would exist, but the concept is that where ever I go, there a computer is (within reason: I don't plan to share the bathroom with a computer, for one).
You mention the dread beige boxes. Unfortunatly, that is what all a PC is right now: a beige box. Something "merely" physical. Radios are not, to my mind, in the same category; it is content, not form or physicality, that defines "radio" to my mind. This is (mostly) because of the fact I get the same information stream seamlessly everywhere- in my car, in the office, and when I exercise; it does not matter that the device that recieves the information changed. I no longer notice the device as much as I do the content. And to me, that defines ubiqueious computing (digital content that transparently follows me from device to device with a minimum of user effort).
Do you like Japanese imports?
"you won't be able to find a single thing on an Apple that hasn't had thought put into it"
How about the USB port placement? Why on earth isn't this on the front of the iMac, or better yet, with a hub built into the keyboard?
How about sound? The oddball video port? How about being able to buy the thing without the cheesy laptop screen so it's not in the way of your good screen?
Its awkward shape makes it tough to hide away in a corner like a traditional box PC, instead, this ugly blob insists on grabbing your attention like a spoiled child.
This design is as crude and silly as the original iMac. It has plenty of immediately obvious, easily corrected shortcomings (remember the puck mouse?), and many subtle ones associated with its unorthodox design. As Apple continues to jump around from radical redesign to radical redesign, rather than correct known flaws in past experiments to provide real design quality, they will continue to surprise their users with unexpected difficulties. No doubt we'll be hearing about plenty of them in a month or two.
any mirrors?
Note to poster... If you're going to post restricted Apple documents, you may want to host them on a web server other than Apple's.
Why this lavish devotion to "upgradability"? The average computer user really doesn't need that much beyond what the iMac has. Memory plus all the ports you need pretty much takes care of it.
I've got a Dell Inspiron that I've used for three years without upgrading and I'm a good deal more geeky than the average computer user. I simply haven't needed to upgrade, not even memory. Laptops are probably a better base of comparison for the new iMac. I don't see anyone complaining about not being able to "upgrade" laptops, really, and they're arguably more integrated than Apple computers.
If you're at all concerned about being able to "upgrade" your computer, the iMac simply isn't for you. The average computer user doesn't need, nor wants to do, to upgrade their computer any more than they would want/need to upgrade their car. Does anyone here *get* that?
I might get the new iMac. It's the first Apple product I've seriously considered buying. Get the high end model, max out the memory... I'll probably be set for another 3-4 years.
Moving right along, I agree that visual design is important for any manmade object. However, I would argue that for tools, visual design is much less important than functionality. For example, I don't care how pleasant my pliers look, as long as they are easy to hold, and grip whatever it is I am trying to grip with them.
In addition, computers have an interesting property: after using the device for any prolonged amount of time, the user ceases to notice it at all. The 1280x1024 (or whatever) pixels become his entire world. This is more true of games and chat programs than it is of business apps, of course, but the effect still exsists for business apps as well.
What do these points imply ? They imply that the outward appearance of the computer is not nearly as important as its functionality, assuming that:
- The computer is used as a tool
- The computer is used for hours at a time
PCs tend to be better tools than macs, because they pack more power on the average, and are easier to customize.Now, most users in fact just use the computer to check their mail and whatnot. In this case, the computer is not a tool, but more of an appliance or a piece of furniture; and it is used relatively rarely. Thus, design becomes much more important than customizability or power, since an ugly PC would eventually drive the user berserk.
It's not that iMacs are better or worse than other computers - it's just that they fullfill a different function.
>|<*:=
Oh geez...
man -k itunes
itunes: Nothing appropriate
man -k finder
finder: Nothing appropriate
If yer gonna be a smartass at least try a little harder.
"Don't sweat the technique."
I was going to respond to the first guy saying "yes! I do! I like my art classes much more then english, ;)" BUT you are right that I am a mac geek. god, can't wait for classes to start tomorrow. :D
It wasn't really meant as an analogy.
g e?topicID=67.topic
But since you are on that track it is more like the original MacOS was like a cheap pot metal single shot derringer with imitation pearl handles. Put together with rivets. No spare parts available. If it breaks just buy a new one. Cute but not very useful.
Windows (of any flavor)... an expensive zip gun. As much danger to the user as any target.
Linux... an Enterprise class aircraft carrier complete with full manufacturing facilities and all plans and blue prints. Complex but powerful.
*BSD... same as above.
MacOS-X chrome plated five shot Gyrojet rocket pistol with imitation pearl handles. Only shoots ammo made by Gyrojet. Neat idea... cool looking... used a lot in movies... weak in the short range and innacurate. Comes with a box of tools they found on an aircraft carrier. Remains to be seen how useful it will be. If anything on the Gyrojet part breaks you have to wait for Gyrojet to ship you new parts.
I thnk there is a far better analogy comparing OSes with airlines somewhere....
here: http://pub76.ezboard.com/fcyberdudefrm7.showMessa
-DU-...etc...
"Don't sweat the technique."
--- "Imagination is only intelligence having fun."
Not unless you're talking about an NSX, maybe. I own a 2000 accord, and it's a great car, good mileage, super quiet, reliable. And the interior is nicely designed. But the exterior of that car is just butt ugly. So is the camry for that matter. Yes, they're rounded - but that's because of air resistance, not style.
In my opinion, computers will much more closely follow the evolution of another consumer category - electronics. Minaturization, quality, and cost reduction are the name of the game. No one braggs about owning big speakers any more, same thing's going to happen with computers.
If apple really cared about useability, they would have designed a basic case to sit on the floor. One cable would connect it to the lcd display, another to a usb/firewire hub. The keyboard and mouse would be wireless. When you're not using your computer, you would be able to push it to the side, and use your desk for other things.
But I guess you can already do most of those with a PC. Oh Well.
Interviewer: So, we've all seen the new I-Mac by now, and I'm sure everyone has the same question -- What the hell were you thinking?
JI: I, er, um...that is-- it seemed like a good idea at the time.
No way, OS X looks much, much better than XP!
As far as looks go, XP is nothing special. OS X, on the other hand....
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
True, indeed. The other day I had to subtly use a PC in a Gateway Country (I was out of town and lost) while pretending to be interested in the crappy thing to the guy who kept trying to sell it to me.
The browser kept breaking, Google didn't load properly, and every time I tried to do something quickly, a new, annoying window popped up. The the media player started and took over the screen. Finally, I found the directions that I needed, got the guy's business card and swore to myself that I'd never use XP again.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
While not done on a Mac, a buddy of mine loves playing around with the Microsoft Agent stuff and writing little VB applications to control things. After muddling around with X10 and his love of music he's got a nice new trick.
Walks into the bedroom and says "Lets get it on..." lights dim down to 5% and starts playing some smooth music.
The new iMac design isn't just about a new case or the next wierd look from Apple. It's all part of apple's new strategy. Apple lost the "big market-share and superfast speeds" race long ago, way back in 1996. That isn't where Apple is focused anymore.
0 6. shtml
Instead, Apple has come up with this concept of the "Digital Hub". Admittedly, the concept is not new, but Apple is marketing it, and sucesfully I might add. No longer is Apple selling a computer, they're selling a lifestyle. Think about what they provide. A series of softwares which touch on almost every aspect of life.
1) OS X- For the computer geek in the house, a *NIX underpinning, with plenty of built in power and a ton of open source aspects, and a fast and worthy GUI on top of it. Combinned with the support of comercial software backers, Apple is bringing *NIX to consumers.
2) iMovie- For the parents, finaly those really dull home movies can be livened up, even if they still won't ever be watched.
3) iPhoto- Steve was right, every family has a photo buff, and this product makes things unbelievably easy.
4) iTunes+iPod- Say what you will about it's price, the iPod is still one of the best MP3 players arround, and I can boot my comp with it. iTunes has a lot of power behind it, and while there may be other more feature packed products out there, almost none of them have such seamless support with so many MP3 players. Plus, it burns CDs for you. Yes ladies and gentlemen, Apple believes in being able to use music you own (and if you ask Steve off the books, probobly even some you don't) in any way you like.
5) iDVD- a new concept, burning your own DVDs. And while DVD burners aren't anything new, I don't see anyone else promoting the idea.Not only that, but someone mentioned to me, that even though Apple doesn't support it, the drives in the high end products are apperently not only DVD-R, but actualy RWs. (Unconfirmed, I guess you would have to find out what drive exactly is being used and find a market version somewhere
6) New iMac design- The look is more than just shock value. The concept behind the digital hub is that it is the center of your technological needs. The new design is something you could put in the center of your house. Where most computers have traditionaly enjoyed a spot against the wall, under a desk, or in a back room, this computer could sit comfortably in your living room, and it wouldn't look all that out of place.
7) Expandable- Not in terms of conventional PCI slots or drive bays, but in terms of versitility. The power of UNIX, combined with the imagination and wierdness of Apple developers and the OpenSource compuntiy you suddenly have a computer capable of being more than just a worprocessor and graphics station. This thing could actualy be the brain of a computerized home. It has the look and feel of being part of the future and has the potential to be part of it.
This is not to say the PC's don't have the ability to do this, but if you ask me, the only real innovation I see is from Sony, and Sony costs about as much as Apple.
Apple lost the power race years ago, as well as the OS race. Now Apple is running a new race, one of style, class and usefulness, and so far, the contenders are way behind.
For a superior explination of what I'm saying here go to:
http://www.macslash.com/articles/02/01/10/22492
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
When I need a fashionable wash basin, I'll contact Jonathan Ive. But the danged thing will probably leak.
and to cite some examples (from slashdot) consider this:
Person A loves the shiny new imacs with the transparent skins and mac os x bubbles. Sure, he pays more for fewer cycles.
Person B like the design of the hardware and the bsd command prompt, but chooses not to buy it because he's turned off by the mac "community"'s perceived lack of technical savvy.
Person C likes all the features of linux but decides to run a bsd os because he hates Stallman or linux zealotry.
All of these are in some sense irrational decisions, but they really aren't. The point is to enjoy yourself, and "extraneous" factors come into the picture all the time. The point of the cycles or features is, in the end, just another factor which adds to your pleasure in using a system.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
Apple made a machine like that once upon a time. It was called the G4 cube. You can still find them on ebay.
Think about it for a moment... a G4-based Mac, internal CD/DVD and HD, external monitor, with most of the expansion being in the form of USB or FireWire (i.e. external) and what have you got?... the Cube! If they brought it back and halved the price, would you be as interested as I would be?!
Linux and *BSD are neither so powerful nor so robust as your analogy would suggest. Even a field artillery piece would be a stretch.
The point is form *is* function... for many people. The iMac does offer exceptional "performance", but along a different axis than raw CPU performance. I don't see it in the same category as B&O stereo equipment.
Parallel arguments can be made for B&O stereo equipment:
"It's for people that don't demand that a stereo crank out x-many watts and want a stereo for home use, designed with the consumer in mind."
"With B&O, you are paying for form, functionality, and quality that is hard to come by."
"Yes, B&O have less watts than some mass-market stereos that cost hundreds less, but for many, B&O will be well worth the cost for the way it performs in the home."
The problem with claims like those are that they are so subjective. What works well for you and has an elegant interface, may be frustrating to me and have an interface that I hate. For instance, many of us with more than one finger like two or three-button mice/trackballs with scroll wheels.
Let's examine functionality further. Many people feel that the dearth of software for the iMac is a major hindrance. Many don't feel that revolutionary desklamp technology screen mounting does not make up for a screen that is only 15" in size.
What it really comes down to is that the iMac is a $1300-$1800 disposable computer. When it becomes too underpowered for then-current software, the owner will have no choice but to replace it in total. He'll have to scrap the DVD/cutter drive, the LCD screen, the case, power supply, motherboard, etc. That's wasteful and absurd. I've got a top-notch, modern PC and I'm still using the same floppy drive, monitor, case, internal Zip drive, SCSI controller (for my external DAT tape drive), etc. that I was three years ago. When a component becomes a bit long in the tooth, I can upgrade it without scrapping the entire system.
I asked an Apple guy at Macworld whether or not the screen was the same unit as their 15" desktop lcd -- as far as he knew it is. My question was leading to a possible 17" iMac model (mark my words, it will come -- there's a reason that base is so heavy...). However, this also means that the screen is high-volume, and probably wouldn't be hugely expensive to replace should it fail.
just my blog and pix
A television is just a device for showing moving pictures ... A car ,a metal shell for conveying us from place to place....A chair , well its to sit on.Music is a collection of notes , samples of the electromagnetic spectrum. Form and functionality . It sounds like soviet russia would be your nirvana.Read some stuff by Alan watts consider the colour and beauty in life . Flowers are not grey the sky is sometimes blue amd apple make great looking bits of kit....
Seize the day
Gosh the word Zen on slashdot.
Well the point is there isnt one and whilst Zen and the art of... may not be the best book on Zen it brings across the point. It's choice . The choice and freedom to realize form and beauty , that zen defies explanation due its inherent rules of silent observation is perhaps why ives struggles to put into words his feelings. People are free to consider the boxes from Gateway as mere tools or the GUI as a mere workspace . Apple did not , neither did Beos , Microsoft didn't care --- I do . The desktop is an extnsion of my creative nature and why should it be dull . Apple then extended this to the actual computer and the iMac was born. The latest edition will be sitting on my desk as soon as I can afford it......
Seize the day
You are welcome to your racist comments about english majors and their job skills. For you I recomend a hospital and a years usage of Windows 3.1 on a 486. Coupled with cheap , bad American 'comedy' show reruns on a black and white TV. Eating tasteless TV dinners .
Please press your thumb against the base of your left arm and check your pulse. If you are still alive then buy your boyfriend/girlfriend/wife a large bouquet and tell her how much you love her/him. Consider that the tools WE make have a little peice of us all inside and even XP isn't a bad GUI after all. Meanwhile the world forgives your ignorance..... go in peace
Seize the day
n/t
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
I can agree with you, that VPC on every Mac would reduce the incentive to develop Mac OS-native versions of apps.
But I don't follow your reasoning for why developer tools aren't preinstalled in OS X. Seems to me it the number of Mac OS apps would get a big boost if everyone had access to good dev tools.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Connectix sells a version of VPC that comes with PC-DOS. No Microsoft tax involved. They could also throw in x86 Linux at no charge. Why run x86 Linux in emulation when PPC-native Linux is available? I can think of two reasons: the ability to download compiled binaries for x86 Linux; and the ability to have your Mac running Mac OS and x86 Linux simultaneously.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
It has nothing to do with Zen Buddhism.
hehe, i wish slashcode would let you transfer moderation points to other posts. that actually is much more insightful than my original rant.
/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
Bad example, the G4 actually does really really well on RC4....but point taken anyway.
Absolutely correct ......
its a book on motorcycle maintenance.
Maybe there is no difference....
Seize the day
BECAUSE OF VOLUME OF YOUR MESSAGES, AN AUTO-REPLY SERVICE HAS BEEN
ACTIVATED.
X_ I agree. You're still a wanker.
__ I agree. I'm still a wanker.
__ I don't have a parrot-shaped dildo, and if you keep implying it, I
shall have to bloody your nose.
__ I DO have a parrot-shaped dildo. Are you free sometime next week?
X_ I have been bitten by a poisonous wolf spider and cannot reply
personally to your letter.
__ The Jews deserved it. Stop with the bleeding-heart crap.
__ I am a Jew. I agree fully.
X_ I really think most of the flame-bait in alt.sex.* groups is probably
done by government agents to keep real headway from being made in said
alt.sex.* newsgroups.
__ 14 seconds is more than enough time for me to get off. Why not enough
time to get off a Stinger?
THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST IN THE CHESHIRE CAT'S AFFAIRS. YOUR COMMENTS HAVE BEEN
NOTED AND WILL BE PRINTED TO HARDCOPY AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.
Last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I'll never know.
Why would including dev tools (which are a free download anyway) on the OS X CDs, cause developers to make available source code but not executables?
If the developers want a wide audience to actually use their apps, they'll make executables available, because the number of Mac OS users who are willing and able to compile source code is darn small. Talk about niches.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.