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NYTimes Looks at Warez
Flamerule writes "The New York Times has a new article up that relates the end result of the DrinkorDie copyright infringement case (the "ringleader" and 5 other guys are in prison), and talks about warez in general. They at least tried to get a story from both software companies and denizens of the warez scene. Pretty interesting stuff, even if you haven't been following the case closely."
Anyone knows an FTP site when I can download Linux Warez? K Tnx!
Seems like it's the end of an awesome era. Though the internet warez scene was nothing compared to the old BBS scene.
I wonder how they pronounce it..."War-rez" or "ware-ez". Hmm.
This is like the chicken and the egg story. Only with warez, what came first, extremely high prices for software or software pirates? Software developers always whine about how pirates drive costs through the roof, and pirates always whine about how they dont but their software because its too overpriced.
In college, really poor, need a flatscreen.
Oh, well. What else can I say? There have been a million other posts about piracy.
All your favorite sites in one place!
Forget this registering for an account at the NYTimes! Time to go post and ask if anyone has any cracked versions of it! hehe ;)
"PC Load Letter? What the $@#% does that mean?!"
Last week, at age 29, John Sankus Jr. moved out of his parents' house for the first time.
Wait, a warez d00d aged 29 still living at home? NO WAY. This totally shatters my image of them.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Must be a sign of the coming apocalypse and end of the world!
--Keeping the flame wars alive, one post at a time
Its a vicious circle: Warez exists because programs (for home users, anyway) are too expensive, and they are too expensive because of warez. Like Photoshop. I "have" a copy of ps 6.0, and I've used it twice in 4 months. I made some wallpaper, and one character portrait for NWN (Drizzt is available too!! www.threemoons.net/dnd.php if you want them!).
This is NOT worth the hefty (600 or so??) price tag associated with it, although I'd've probably paid 50.
Just my $.02
This is my sig. Its pathetic.
I wonder if she's related to Lady 3Jane Tessier-Ashpool... ;-)
Try out Phorecast, open-source email, calendar,
Get a new id here: http://www.majcher.com/nytview.html
...When 7h3y @r3 t@lking l1k3 7h!z...
-RickTheWizKid
I love all the recent (well, last couple of years) banter about software pirates in the mainstream media. My favorite quotes are something along the lines of.. "software pirates cost us $x.x billion last year. When they are actually referring to people that haven't paid for the "illegal" copies of the software. I thought pirates were the people "selling" and gaining "profit" from "illegal" copies. How does putting a copy up on an ftp site relate to making a profit?
Have you hugged your Karma Whore today?
To me, an interesting aspect of the fight against piracy is the teaming-up of companies/divisions.
Right now, the MPAA is trolling IRC for servers, and reporting infringing IPs back to Time Warner, who promptly warns customers against their usage. I've seen some of the letters.
There may or may not be antitrust concerns, but it's certainly schizophrenic... In cases like these, whose profit is considered to be more important?
July 11, 2002 Pirates of the Web By JENNIFER 8. LEE AST week, at age 29, John Sankus Jr. moved out of his parents' house for the first time. He and his parents drove 150 miles from their home in suburban Philadelphia to his new one: a federal penitentiary in Allenwood, Pa. Mr. Sankus, who entered the minimum-security prison on July 2 to serve a 46-month sentence, is a soft-spoken, churchgoing computer technician who still has the plush stuffed whales from his childhood. But United States Customs Service investigators and prosecutors say he was also a ringleader of an international gang of software pirates that deprived companies of millions of dollars through the illegal distribution of copyrighted software, games and movies on the Internet. In February, Mr. Sankus pleaded guilty to a felony count of conspiracy to commit copyright infringement. The piracy group, known as DrinkorDie, was among the chief targets of more than 100 coordinated raids in the United States and abroad last December. So far 15 people in the United States have pleaded guilty to criminal charges as a result of the raids, including a Duke University student, a programmer at the University of California at Los Angeles, an employee at an Internet service provider and several executives at technology companies. So far Mr. Sankus and five others have been sentenced to prison. Interviews with Mr. Sankus and others involved in the case, including customs and law enforcement officials, offer an unusual glimpse into the world of Internet piracy. It is a community of sorts, with perhaps 30 major groups that issue pirated products by cracking the copy-protection codes of software or making illicit duplicates of movies. Many of the pirates say they were motivated less by money than by a sense of competition, prestige and the entertainment value of distributing the pirated goods, which they call "warez." "Most of the people I have been around with are not out to cheat anybody," said Mr. Sankus, a large, shy man who worked as a computer technician at a Gateway store. "They are out to have fun. It's just a hobby." In an interview before he went off to prison, Mr. Sankus said he earned no money from software piracy. He described it rather as a social activity that consumed him. He recounted the day when about 40 armed customs agents swooped into his workplace. "I felt like someone who had just murdered 50 people," he said. Prosecutors say that Mr. Sankus helped steal millions of dollars' worth of intellectual property. And despite the guilty pleas from him and others, they add, the stealing continues because of the nature of the distribution medium. "That's the difference -- in the old world, if you stopped the source, you stopped the piracy," said Michael DuBose, a Justice Department lawyer who played a pivotal role in the piracy investigation. "But all the stuff that DrinkorDie put out there continues to be out there." While Internet piracy slowed immediately after the December raids, activity has picked up again, investigators say. For example, Warcraft III, an eagerly anticipated game from Blizzard Entertainment, was "cracked" and released to the Internet only one day after a master CD for the game was created in mid-June. For DrinkorDie members, piracy was the technological equivalent of joy riding -- a form of bravado that could gain them acceptance in a hierarchical social sphere. "It's all about stature," said David Grimes of Arlington, Tex., a DrinkorDie member who worked as a computer engineer at Check Point Software, a company that specializes in security solutions for software. "They are just trying to make a name for themselves for no reason other than self-gratification." Mr. Grimes is serving a 37-month prison sentence after pleading guilty to the same charge that Mr. Sankus did. "It's the same reason that people join gangs," said Allan Doody, the Customs Service investigator who led the DrinkorDie investigation, part of a broader anti-piracy campaign called Operation Buccaneer. "They're hanging out on the cyber-street corner." But in contrast to petty criminals and warring gangs, Internet piracy groups have a worldwide impact of at least tens of millions of dollars, if not more. Such groups secure their reputations by releasing thousands of free movies, games, music and software programs on the Internet each year. While such groups rarely profit financially from their activities, their warez (pronounced like the word wares), proliferate rapidly around the world, reaching those who do sell them for gain -- for example, people who hawk the software through pay-for-access Web sites or burn them on CD's for sale on the street, in shops or at Internet auction sites. The copies "become the raw materials that others use for commercial piracy," said Bob Kruger, president of the Business Software Alliance, an industry group that asserts that software piracy costs $10.1 billion a year in lost sales worldwide. The victims of piracy take the threat very seriously. Havard Vold, president of an eight-person company in Cincinnati called Vold Solutions, was horrified to discover that DrinkorDie had released a free version of a specialized engineering program that his company sold for $9,500. "That was very scary," Mr. Vold said. "They do not understand the impact of copyright infringement, especially on the smaller companies." Although the warez scene took root only in the early 1990's, piracy has expanded rapidly, particularly in the last five years. Increasing access to the Internet worldwide, cheap computer storage costs and the proliferation of digitized media have helped set off an international online shopping spree in which just about anyone can obtain a pirated version of a coveted software program, computer game or movie openly and easily. By contrast, the warez groups themselves tend to operate in secrecy, relying on encryption technologies, disguised Internet Protocol addresses and invite-only chat channels. And their world is highly structured, with a strict hierarchy and rules. The pirates are organized into two main types: release groups that produce the pirated works and courier groups that serve as worldwide distributors. Government investigators estimate that there are roughly 30 major release groups enlisting some 1,500 people around the world. In the DrinkorDie raids last December, warrants were served on suspected members in Britain, Australia, Finland, Norway and Sweden. Mr. DuBose said that at least half of DrinkorDie's members lived outside the United States. Different warez groups focus on different product lines. Groups like FairLight and Razor1911 are known for game releases. FTF and Immortal VCD release movies, a pursuit that relies less on overcoming protection schemes than on getting illegitimate access to recent films to duplicate them. A group called POPZ, for Parents on 'Puterz, focuses on children's games. DrinkorDie, which is perhaps best known for having cracked Windows 95 weeks before it was released by Microsoft, has more recently concentrated on expensive specialized software like Mr. Vold's engineering program. "It's cool to release something that costs $18,000," said Mr. Grimes, the DrinkorDie member from Arlington, Tex. "Basically, if it wasn't for us, you would never see this piece of software." Warez involve frenzied competition. Groups race to be the first to release popular movies and games, but quality is important too. Groups take jabs at one another's releases. Immortal VCD called a competitor's release of the Disney film "Lilo and Stitch" subpar, describing the copy as "very dark, shaky and pixilated." It offered its own version as an improvement. The release groups typically have one or two leaders, two or three other managers called "council members," 10 to 15 staff members who work on releases and 50 to 100 members who simply have access to the releases. Mr. Sankus, one of the two leaders of DrinkorDie, went by the online name Eriflleh, or "hellfire" spelled backward. The other leader, who goes by the online name Bandido, lives in Australia and has not not been charged, Justice Department officials said. Like similar release groups, DrinkorDie divided the labor. Suppliers, often insiders at a software company, provided versions of the software. Crackers, who had the most technologically complex role, stripped the programs of their protections. Testers then made sure that the unprotected versions of the software worked properly. Finally, there were packers and "pre-ers" who were responsible for dividing the programs into small files and distributing them to release sites. Mr. Sankus started out as a tester and a packer for DrinkorDie before moving into a leadership position. "There weren't that many people who wanted to do testing and packing because it was considered grunt work," he said. The warez community has numerous databases to keep track of the thousands of releases. People can perform what are known as "dupe checks," or searches to determine whether a program or a movie has already been released. The Isonews Web site (www.isnonews.com) keeps a public database of the information files that accompany each warez release. Such files specify who was responsible for the release, when it was made available and how many files the product has been broken down into, as well as reviews. The warez groups privately maintain a database known as Checkpoint that has automated software agents, or bots, that keep abreast of warez releases as they occur. Once the files arrive at the release sites, courier groups take over and move them through a systematic distribution chain. Within 10 minutes of a warez release, the pirated product is copied to a few dozen central distribution centers on the Internet. Government officials estimate that within six hours, lower-level couriers then copy files to about 10,000 publicly available sites around the Internet. Within two or three days, the movies and program trickle onto Usenet groups and onto peer-to-peer software networks like KaZaA and Morpheus. Once the files become public, they are essentially available to anyone who goes looking for them. "All it takes is one person to put it on a newsgroup -- then it explodes," said David Rocci, who runs Isonews. The courier groups, like the release groups, are fueled by competition. The government estimates that 3,500 people are involved in the most elite courier groups, which include RISC and Moonshine. Couriers are ranked in groups and as individuals with a scoring system. There are weekly rankings, all-time rankings and regional rankings (United States vs. Europe, for example). Courier groups are sized up in shadowy e-mail publications like American Courier Review and Courier Weektop Scorecard in sports-style commentary. "Just not quite enough for RISC this time but an awesome team effort in which we see some nice individual performance as well," a recent review read. Although release and courier groups engage in little direct commercial activity, a 1997 extension in federal copyright law made piracy a crime even if there is no monetary profit. Prosecutors say that money is beside the point in the underground pirate economy. The releases form the basis of a bartering system in which members trade, hoard and collect warez. Access to software storage sites is granted in exchange for hardware, server space and other technological goods. "You don't need to make money, when you don't need money to buy this stuff," Mr. DuBose said. "By participating in a group, they got the key to the candy store. Any movie, game, software they could ever want, they could get." Still, given the absence of personal profit, some DrinkorDie members were surprised by the prison sentences they received, generally from three to four years. "We weren't criminal-minded," Mr. Grimes said. "We never anticipated that a company would lose a sale as a result of one guy in China downloading it and burning it onto a CD and selling it to half of China." But that argument fails to resonate for copyright holders like Mr. Vold. "If you like torching houses for fun, you don't gain anything from torching somebody's house," he said. "But that homeowner will certainly suffer a material loss." Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company | Permissions | Privacy Policy
It's not exactly a new assertion, but Open Source quite obviously killed most of the motivation behind warez. Now we can just download the apps we need anyway. The desire to put your name out there, and to participate in the distribution of good software to people. Many of those creative people that would oce have been cracking software have a much more interesting, rewarding and legal outlet in devloping open source applications. Instead of "giving something back" by posting warez to ng's or pub ftp's, you can do your bit by bug testing, or contributing documentation etc etc
When I read this, I think there is a problem, then it clicks... The problem is overpriced software!
I get upset for a mere moment
Then I remember there is a solution... It solves all the problems of software piracy, and makes using the computer a valuable learning expirience. OPEN SOURCE!
It's all good.
When I first got in to connectivity with computers, communication, warez was always around.. My BBS was a 14.4 baud 486 dx4-100mhz with 8mb of ram running renegade software with around a 500mb hard drive chock full of full pieces of software that were about 6/8mb in size.
It was amazing the amount of traffic a BBS would get once it announced it went - "elite".
Now, it's the same thing, couriers, distribution FTP's, it's just on a much broader scale. It's always been around, it's just taken the NYTimes about a decade or so to publish something about it.
Hey look! How many companies give out their software after a period of time saying that we can all have it b/c it is out of date!!! Second of all look at how many people have already cracked Warcraft3!! Um if the want people to actually buy the products them stop being so stupid and either 1) giving them out or 2) making them so damn easy to crack!!!!!!!! J.C. A.K.A. (hope fully I won't get thrown in jail for using someone elses nickname) Gabreal
Who pays $9500 for a piece of software? I know I wouldn't. I don't have that much money, and if I did have, I'd buy a car. In fact, that sort of product probably sells less than 1000 copies. The people who buy it are not paying that much just for the software, but for the technical support as well. They simply aren't going to pirate it because a free copy isn't worth the money.
So although the industry criticises these people for costing them sales, the actual lost sales are probably non-existent. Added to this, some of thoise kids who pirate it are going to become familiar with it, and possibly get good enough with it to want to use it professionally.
I'm not saying that Piracy is good, but the penalties for this sort of thing are far too extreme.
Information will be "free" of couse--and all these discussions will be about as interesting as tips on avoiding sabre-tooth tigers.
Leader of an international warez group... works as a gateway tech. Priceless :)
Try ftp to 127.0.0.1
(couldn't resist this old answer)
NYT Random Login Generator Here.
Here's a nice quote from the article:
"It's the same reason that people join gangs," said Allan Doody, the Customs Service investigator who led the DrinkorDie investigation...
Um.. yeah, script kiddies trading software like baseball cards is exactly like joining a gang so you won't get beat up on the way to school. I just love when the government/media feels the need to subtly add words that make things sound more evil than they really are.
Have you hugged your Karma Whore today?
i would even say that the pc platform wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for pirated software.
it just goes to show that these customs agents have too much time on their hands.
Although release and courier groups engage in little direct commercial activity, a 1997 extension in federal copyright law made piracy a crime even if there is no monetary profit.
How were pirates prosecuted before then? I seem to recall that they busted hacker rings long before 1997.
Maybe the state's highest function is to grind out insoluble problems. (Zelazny, Hall of Mirrors)
Look at windows, without the warez scene to make it free for many many people (myself included) it would never be as popular as it is today. People would to have used dos/3.11 for longer, and not upgraded asap to windows 95.
If any warez hurts the industry, it's the zero day guys that release the software the day of or before the real software release. The sooner it's out there the sooner it can multiply.
Made NO mention of the fact that people who get warez wouldn't have PAY for it anyway. Whereas wareziing makes a certain piece of software popular. That thing about China was stupid they quoted the guy and didnt explain that he m eant ppl in China wouldnt have bought it anyway. Most readers wouldnt have gotten that part.
... dont know shit about anything and trying to write stories on it.
Retarded reporters
*snip*
"It's cool to release something that costs $18,000," said Mr. Grimes, the DrinkorDie member from Arlington, Tex. "Basically, if it wasn't for us, you would never see this piece of software."
*snip*
I understand how they figure that companies "lose money" whenever they're software is pirated. But do they figure into those billions of lost dollars statements like the one above? Seems to me it's hard to find out just how much money the software companies are really losing because not all people who pirate their software are people who would ever pay for it.
Still, the worst part is that because software piracy is so rampant, it enables people who would (can?) pay for proper licensing for software to obtain illegal licenses.
I certainly feel bad that small businesses that rely on software licensing for revenue are having their stuff pirated, but another company like Blizzard who sold something like (correct me if I'm wrong) 1 millions copies of Warcraft III on pre-sell alone... how are we supposed to feel sorry that their "losing" money, when we can't be sure that people who pirated that software would never have bought it because they don't have the money or whatever? Maybe that's a lame example, but you get my point. Replace Warcraft III with some $500 publishing software, like Photoshop or CorelDraw. Is everyone who pirates those someone who would pay for them if they couldn't obtain them illegally?
Now here's a good hypothetical question: Suppose someone illegally downloads a copy of Warcraft III just to "try it out", with the intention of buying it if they like it. They play it and don't like it because of the 90 food limit, or something like that. They delete the game and never play it again. Do they owe Blizzard $55 because they should have bought the game in the first place to "try it out"?
Here you go:
ftp.kernel.org
login: anonymous
pw: l333th4x0r@uB3rl33t.org
The have every version of linux ever released! w00000000t!
Don't give this out!
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These guys need to lay off a bit. One or two unarmed agents would have sufficed to bring the guy in.
According to the /. article Warez is slowing down, but the articles say "Although the warez scene took root only in the early 1990's, piracy has expanded rapidly, particularly in the last five years." So, what is it? is Warez cooling down or still heating up? Warez is blocked (at my school at least), so that could be why most students are not downloading warez software anymore. Who knows what they do to the code anyway. Besides other things on their site, warez is never an option for me. I would rather buy my programs, write them myself or use open source. Open Source is the best option anyway.
Did some digging to refresh my memory. Here's a spot from back when Jennifer was working in Washington:
Some people have ask what is the deal with the Washinton Post's Metro reporter Jennifer 8 Lee. Well here it is... Jennifer's parents are from China, where there about 200 million people have the last name "Lee." To impart a sense of individuality they gave her the middle name "8," which has special meaning to the Chinese. It means luck, good fortune, security and strength.
Don't be too quick to label these people as warez kiddies or people who are somehow different from you.
Warez can become an addiction, just like mp3's. It starts out with you downloading the newest Dreamweaver for your new flashy website; then you get the latest Photoshop to doctor your home pics. Then three months later, you have a 60g hard drive on your cable modem server, running a cracked version of XP, that is full of the latest and greatest graphics and rendering software. It's very, very easy to become immersed in the scene.
However, most people eventually leave the scene, because they realize they never use any of the cool programs. And the new people in the scene are just greedy and selfish. Then they move on to loftier anti-establishment movements.
Peace.
Al.
Well, for me at least, I think it's rather hard to crack software....don't you have to get a hex editor and find the serial number somehow? You basically have to read hex/assembly..How come THESE guys don't charge for their time in cracking the software?
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
Its more expensive to jail these people for 'stealing' than it is to let them run free. Imagine it. They don't even have to pay taxes in prison, they just...sit there. At least on the outside they had to pay taxes and didn't leech off of the government's money. l
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
This article shows just how out of control our government is, when 40 armed agents "bust" a guy who's pirating software.
First off, let me point out that I'm a software developer, and I'm in the process of creating a shrink wrapped application which I intend to charge for and which I expect a number of people are going to try to pirate. Since I am a one man startup in this situation, if piracy affects anyone, it affects me directly in my pocket book.
But this situation is absurd. Teh government should not be wasting time going after people who are pirating software who aren't profiting from it.
If someone steals my software, then they are liable to me under the law-- not to the feds. The feds have no rights to my code and no rights to lock people up for violating my rights in this way.
If someone pirates my software, then I should be able to take them to civil court and sue them for damages-- possibly twice actual damages, but I have to show damages to recover the money.
The Feds are busting people, claiming that "millions of dollars" have been stolen when this is a bald faced lie-- millions of dollars have NOT been stolen.
The only way a pirated piece of software is "theft" is if the person who uses it would have OTHERWISE bought the product. IF someone tries it out and then discards it and never would have bought the product, then the software company has not experienced damage-- they got some free advertising and didn't happen to pick up a customer.
IF someone pirates your software and then sells it, well then that would be theft. But those who give it away a guilty of mischief, but do not belong in a federal prison.
As for the guy who claims his software costs $9,500 but lost out because it was pirated-- make your software not work without authentication with the mothership. This is really easy these days-- get the MAC address, and send it in, and return a cryptographically signed authorization code that the program needs to run-- if the MAC address changes too much, or you['re getting identical requests from dozens of IP addresses, then don't return the key. Hell, make it such that a key set of code for the App is stored in an external runtime-loaded framework, and encrypt that bit with the key so that it never exists on the CD or hard drive in decrypted form... and of course keys have an expiry so that the program has to check in every 90 days or so. Or whatever less draconian version of this works for you, hell dongles are cheap enough.
Yes this can be defeated, but my experience with warez sites is that they just have CD images, the programs security hasn't been defeated, and people just share license keys-- in this case reporting the key to a central server and the ability to turn it off when it becomes obviously shared is easy.
This seems to be working for ambrosia and idsoftware.
But sending the feds in is NOT the solution-- we cannot tolerate this. MS has sent teams of armed men into small offices where they suspect the people are not licensing all their copies of windows. This is unacceptable.
As long as we accept government stormtroopers doing the bidding of private companies we will not be free-- it will just get worse and worse.
What's next- 40 armed marshalls bust some 13 year old for sharing MP3s?
All the while real crimes are going on and are ignored.
These are civil issues and belong in the civil courts. And anyone who doesn't protect their IP is just asking for it.
This is the equivalent of cops busting down dorm room doors because 20 kids in the same class photocopied pages from a library book to study from.
But because its computers they're "pirates" and the idiot press and public go along. Who's to stand up to the invasion of police in what should be civil matters? If anyone- US. Don't tolerate your company using stormtroopers-- protest loudly if they do. And protest to anyone who has the ability to affect change in this area-- such as your congressman (though I don't hold out much hope that they will listen, idiots that they are.)
Civil disobedience is going to be what this comes down to eventually-- sooner or later, they will be tightening the noose. who here doesn't have an MP3 that they can't prove legal ownership of?
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Would that person have really bought the 500 dollar piece of software if they couldn't buy it?
Or would they simply have purchased the $29.99 'lite' version?
Many People wouldn't use the software in the first place if they had to buy it. So its *not* a lost sale.
1;
I went to the local store and saw WC3, "my god that is a beautifully packaged piece of work" I said to myself, till I looked at the price... "$60.00?!?"
I cant afford that! Im not going to bootleg it, I will just wait a (long) while till it comes down in price (I just picked up Heretic II for 5.00 at a software store last summer)
price it more reasonably and MORE people will buy it, it goes the same for music and anything else you can think of, the lower the price the more people buy it... most people have a "price threshold" go over it and it doesnt matter how good it is they will bypass it...
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Actually, 'warez' is just 'wares', as in softwares. Linux wares are readily available, so that was a stupid question, not a funny one.
pr0pz: PBG, fecal troll matter, wipo troll, AC's everywhere. Fuck the clit.
And I remember an article I read a while ago where the releasing group for audio software (I forgot the name) only released programs that could not be afforded by the ordinary person. Things like SoundForge run a couple hundred dollars, and therefore only businesses or professionals could use it. What about the little guy who wanted to consider entering the profession, but didn't have the money (yet) to buy it. -- Generally, business -do- get legitimate copies pecause of audits and support.
Anyways, back to point, this same group -refused- to release any programs that were under a hundred dollars, because these are generally writting by individuals or extremely small companies, and are generally affordable by the common man.
They tried to make an example out these few, look it's working great. Then they'll put the thousands on thousands of couriers in jail, then they'll put non affiliated users in jail. It works just like imprisoning people for marijuana possession. The US prison industry is booming, that's what will bring us out of this recession, a profitable prison system driven by slave^H^H^H^H^Hprison labor. When it's all over, that's all we will have. Everyone in prison.
Fear is not a good reason to do anything, as people will re-learn soon.
So do you think _real_ pirates in china/korea/russia/etc will have problems making copies? hah.
Destroy society for money, you won't live long enough to see it in ashes.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots." George HW Bush
But in contrast to petty criminals and warring gangs, Internet piracy groups have a worldwide impact of at least tens of millions of dollars, if not more.
Me, i'd much rather have warez groups hanging around trading (but rarely using) software in the recluse of their bedrooms than have armed gangs killing poeple in a neighbourhood..
Sparks:Gadget:Beer Maker
Yes, in that sense it's different. And I quite agree with what they're saying, but you pulled it out of context.
His next workds were: "They're hanging out on the cyber-street corner." I used to in the priacy rings; and it -is- like a gang, it's a place to be accepted, to be around similarly-minded people, etc.
Then again, joining the football team is also like a gang. Adolescence is about joining "gangs" regardless of whether or not you commit crimes.
(Read: A gang is a group of people, not a group of people who kill other people.)
They can arrest all the people they want. Realistically though .. People have been pirating software since the 80's.
.. or obtained market share if they didn't embrance piracy.
.. but they have better sales over lightwave because of college piracy of their product.
.. legel or not?
.. ask Games Workshop how much of their product is illegally produced in Russia or Poland.
.. (or at least the big boys are) is because it gives upcoming companies the same ability to snake them like they did to others in the past.
.. crying wolf about lost sales during their HIGHEST sales year in history.
.. is that its better to be a company that sells billions and looses 5% revenue to piracy .. than a company that sells hundreds of thousands, and looses 2%.
Anyone remember Mr.Nibble ?
Not that its justification, but there are products that wouldn't have market share
Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia, Quark.
All of these 'big names' became the 'standards' becuase folks were able to play with them.
3dMAX hates to admit it
College kids graduate, and eventually get into positions in companies that decide what software to actually buy. Do you buy something that you have never seen before ? or software that 1/2 of your staff already has at home
Internet piracey is a joke, You want real piracy
[were talking toy soldiers]
or Ask Black & Decker how many chineese companies made a knock off of the snake light.
piracy is nothing compaired to actual industrial espianage. How many car manufactureres buy, and reverse engineer their compeditors autos?
Or pick the solid state electrical giant of your choice. Chances are they are on the beta test list of all compeating companies through a friend of a friend of a friend.
The reason Software companies are so loud about it now
Its kind of like how the music industry was all over MP3
What people tend to forget
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Price it too high, and the only users are pirates.
Price it too low, and there's no piracy but then eventually there's no company, either.
Piracy also indicates a good demand for a product, and if a warez hound does use the product, maybe he'll introduce it into a corporate environment later and spend someone else's money.
I therefore suspect that there's a certain tolerance of piracy, and that ringleaders of large pirate organizations would probably be the only real targets.
search Google for "l33t speak" and you get The L33t Speak translator.
Wow .. sorry .. I just realized that i probally broke Taco's record for the number of gross-mispellings in a single post.
:(
My bad
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
If the software developer community have raised their prices to make-up for the sales lost to piracy they should in theory be making just as much money as if their software weren't pirated (because the price would be lower then). So the reason why software developers are chasing pirates is so that they can lower prices?
Thanks for browsing at -1
Please vistit my blog: www.framtiden.nu
Mr. Sankus, who entered the minimum-security prison on July 2 to serve a 46-month sentence, is a soft-spoken, churchgoing computer technician who still has the plush stuffed whales from his childhood.
Otherwise he'll be picking up whales (and soap)
They sail in boats on the caribbean right?
With that said, I have some cheesey pirate jokes.
A pirate walks into a bar with a big steering wheel in his pants, the thing is clearly sticking out. So he goes up to the bar and the bartender says "Why do you have a steering wheel in your pants?". The pirate replies "Arrrgh its driving me nuts!"
Have you heard of the new pirate movie coming out?
Yeah its rated Arrr.
Heh heh heh, I crack myself out, now tell me, you got a laugh out of that whether it be cause the jokes were funny or you were laughing at me, either way I just made a minute of your workday go by a little faster.
In college, really poor, need a flatscreen.
1) What's stolen when you pirate software?
2) What's property?
3) Why do you participate in the cult of property?
4) Does the cult of property make the world a better place?
5) Can we do away with the cult of property without everyone starving or something?
DEF: Cult of property-
You've got OWNERS and PROPERTY. The relationships between the two are guided by LAW. People are concerned with GETTING ENOUGH so they put attention into their role as OWNERS and the shape of LAW. This has been going on for a long time and people consider it as natural as the sunshine. The CULT OF PROPERTY is the shape of this convention/meme/religion. Owners and owned and the laws that govern them.
( property ownership domain turf piss glands domination anxiety power crystallization inertia machine )
Anyone want to put this more smoothly is welcome.
Ironically, what if this guy had been playing something like Rainbow 6 as his house was raided!
OK, yes, these kids were breaking the law. They may (or may not, it's debatable) have been responsible for $ millions in losses. So they've gotten the book thrown at them.
In the meantime, corporate execs everywhere are laughing up their sleeves as they pocket BILLIONS (yes, billions) of dollar that they've stolen, misappropriated, etc. etc. from their stockholders and employees.
Why aren't they rotting in jail as well? One answer: money.
Find me a millionaire who's sitting in jail and I'll be pretty damn surprised.
Oh, yeah: if my last name was "Doody", I would have made my comments anonymously.
-----------------------
To understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
If You're going to Donate your work anyway as in Open Source - the easiest way to pay for it is to Donate it as artwork to charity. This has the effect of causing the payment to be as shared as the code.
See IRS rules for Donating Artwork for details.
AIK
you, sir, have just given me one of the worst headaches of my life.
seriously, though, i cant understand how people can talk like that and not have their heads explode...
there was an article about piracy I posted a highly moderated insightful comment. However, this time I will say the same thing only shorther :-)
First of all, the last line of the article was kind of lame, the rest of it was good though. The software company exec talked about burning houses down. Yes, a person is hurt if you burn their house down. That is not comparable to warez though. If I make a copy of photoshop, adobe hasn't lost photoshop, they still have it, it doesn't belong to me. All that happens is that I now have a copy of 500$ software that I can use, that I wouldn't have bought anyway, because I'm a poor college student with no money. NO, I didn't actually pirate photoshop, I bought PSP it's only 70$, when I bought it anyway.
Anyway the reason there is warez is because software companies charge too much for software. 9500 dollars for an engineering program? Nobody can afford that! If I'm an engineer who makes say 80 grand a year and I use that software at work. Now I want to use it at home, to get work done at home. To be completely legal I need to spend 1/8 of my yearly income! insanity! Of course I'm just going to copy the cd-roms at work and pirate it.
Warez will always exist as long as software is expensive. Software companies will keep increasing software prices as long as people keep pirating software. It's a vicious cycle of doom. Eventually software will become so expensive that nobody can afford it. The software companies are putting themselves out of business.
The only way I see out is to use WS_FTP style licensing. Home users, college students, and generally anyone who isn't a company can get WS_FTP for free legally. If you need the crazy advanced features that only a corporation would need, or even if you are a small business that needs only the light features, you have to pay. If all software was like that i guarantee a large decrease in piracy and increase in profits for software companies.
Games are another story since they are only 50 bucks. But even though warcraft 3 is out for free, I still see over a million pre-orders. I guess that the piracy really isn't hurting them that much is it?
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
They would've gotten less time for murder. Next time, pick a less severe crime. Armed robbery maybe? I love my corporate state.
-b-
Warez is an unhealthy, addictive practice that feeds the obsessive compulsive nature to own for the sake of having. You try to stop but the lure of free games is too intoxicating to let go. When I bought the Dreamcast at launch, I bought all original games and it had been the first time since the SNES that I remembered the pride of ownership that can come from owning an actual game. I played through those 10 games until completion, discovering every little secret, every little trick - which resulted in a very satisfactory experience that justified the actual game cost. As soon as Utopia entered the scene and opened up the flood of releases I was drunk off of desire to own.. everything. I spent more time downloading, copying, researching, keeping up with the scene than I did actually playing. Yes, my library was impressive but the fun factor was killed. I would brag to my friends and watch as they stared at my collection in awe, but I had lost my desire to play my Dreamcast. Besides playing through to completion several of the better games I simply lost interest in video games. I remember flipping through my two 200 cd binders looking for a game to play, then being so uninspired from the gaming experience - closed them shut and went back to my collecting. I finally decided to purchase an Xbox a month ago, and it was nice to get that sense of pride back again - taking the smooth, heavy black machine out of the packing plastic and foam. Untying the small twist ties on the controller, and shuffling through the manuals and subscription cards. Hooking it up to my television and just beaming with energy, knowing I was in for the best console gaming had to offer. I already knew about the fact it had been hacked, but I held off from the deadly cycle and instead chose to purchase an actual game. I made a silent oath to myself that I would not purchase another game until I either beat the game, played all the way through - or got my value in one way or the other, so I would not be back in the same dillemna as before - countless titles but no desire to play. Instead of being just mediocre at a slew of games, becoming a master a select bunch. The Xbox homebrew scene is more exciting then ever, with news every day on the development front. I am more excited about DiVX ;), linux and emulation of the machine than I am with the actual piracy of games - but still I can feel that draw inside of me.. to aquire.. the lure of ripping games with Evo-X - and it's a struggle against my own will in a fight to preserve the gaming experience.
On a side note, I have also recently been purchasing music cd's for the first time in 2-3 years - but only from the bands I truly love and support. It is a much more visceral experience pulling out a fully decorated disc/packaging than surfing through my truckload of blanks with the uninspired sharpie marker labels.
I believe by actually purchasing games/music CD's you love and enjoy, you are in a way associating as belonging to a special club - the pride of knowing that you are in support and stand by a certain game, developer or artist. And it also mentions to others a certain sense of character, and gives people a bit of insight into your style and values.
Warez addiction, simply put, is media gluttony. Too much of anything can kill the feeling, and remove desire and anticipation - two of the key factors in determining an object's value. I am not saying I'm anti-piracy, because my actions still show otherwise - but it's not to say I've given serious thought to the issue many, many times. I encourage everyone who is stuck in the sludge of mass piracy to take a minute of self reflection and ask yourself how much value and enjoyment you are getting from your entertainment, and how much more you could get if your focus wasn't on simply aquiring as much as possible.
*snip*
:= real lost revinue the company would have gotten were it not for copyright violators := profit per copy of software company makes when it is purchased legally. This isn't the same as the retail price, as Id probably makes domething less than the $30.00 sticker price of a retail copy of Quake, for example. := Number of copies obtained illegally := Ratio of people who would have paid for the software had they not gotten an illegal copy over the total number who got a copy illegally (value 0.0 - 1.0),
:= C * P * N
"It's cool to release something that costs $18,000," said Mr. Grimes, the DrinkorDie member from Arlington, Tex. "Basically, if it wasn't for us, you would never see this piece of software."
*snip*
I understand how they figure that companies "lose money" whenever they're software is pirated. But do they figure into those billions of lost dollars statements like the one above? Seems to me it's hard to find out just how much money the software companies are really losing because not all people who pirate their software are people who would ever pay for it.
If we define
R
P
N
and
C
then
R
C is a value between 0.0 and 1.0, and probably almost never equals 1.0. E.g. if out of 500 copyright violators 250 would have bought the program otherwise, while the other 250 would have done without, C = 0.5
Still, the worst part is that because software piracy is so rampant, it enables people who would (can?) pay for proper licensing for software to obtain illegal licenses.
Actually, the value of money lost probably approaches $0.00 the more expensive the software becomes. I suspect C is quite high for really cheap software that is copied illegally, while it approaches 0.0 for really expensive software copied illegally.
Two factors play a significant role in this: (1) commercial entities almost always want to have their licensing in order (due to audits, liability, etc.) and (b) individuals have very limited budgets (comparitavly speaking).
I doubt very much a single copyright violator of an $18,000 program would have purchased it legally had it not been available on the internet. Indeed, I suspect C = 0.0000 in that particular example.
On the other hand, illegal copies of a $50.00 program (e.g a game) probably do mean that some percentage would have gone out and spent $50.00 on it had they not obtained it, so C is probably higher.
For a $2.00 piece of software (assuming its really easy to find and pay for), C probably approaches 0.9 or higher.
Of course, even this equation ignores the effect of advertising (someone copies the $18,000 program, then finds a need for it in their professional life and talks their employer into purchasing one or more copies), as well as the 'bleedoff' effect (a kid copies one $50.00 game, but goes and spends the $50.00 he would have spent on the first game on another game instead, perhaps by the same company, perhaps by a competitor. Statistically, assuming both games are roughly the same popularity, this is a wash, and neither company loses anything despite the kids having twice as many games as they could have afforded). It also ignores the very common practice of 'try before you buy', where people will in fact borrow a friend's copy of a commercial package, use it, get used to it, then quite often chose to buy a copy (for the documentation, for support, etc.).
I think it is obvious even to the IP zealots out there that the real losses due to copyright violations are tiny fractions of the amounts being deceitfully presented to the FBI and the courts, and in some cases (e.g. Napster) copyright violations have been shown to have the opposite effect, and even increase sales.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I'm guessing that most people that download warez
:)
are NOT costing the companies anything
IF you are downloading this stuff you probrolly wouldn't buy it in the first place.
I can't afford $300 plus for an office suite
heck $30 would be pushing it
so even if I couldn't get the warez I wouln't buy
it.
look at it this way If they ever figure out how to kill off most warezing then alot more people
will go to linux
Yep. I had a brief stint in the warez-scene in high school. Ran a hidden ftp-server on a computer connected to the school network. I thought I was really cool until I realised that I was throwing so much time away. It's really easy to get hooked into the warez-scene and all th "l33t" stuff that comes with it. Like using stolen ISP-accounts for "free" (this was in Sweden without flatrate) dialup access or using creditmaster 4000 to make your own compuserve account.
God I don't miss that period of my life...
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
I'd make a post, but I gotta go out to the cyber-street corner to have some cyber-beer and a cyber-joint...
These FBI guys are such toolboxes when it comes to talking anything that carries an electrical signal!
This
Okay, as stated previously.. most of the pirates would have never of boughten the software in the first place, and 90% of the stuff that couriers get, they don't even take a look at it.. just push it around. Now, where is the industry losing money.. by the people making illegal dupes of the cds, packaging them, and selling them as authentic products. Now do you think the guy working on the street corner in China Town has access to the DOD or PWA site? No.. they'll generally buy a copy of the software.. So at least in my opinion.. "warez kids" don't have any affect on the sale of pirated software..
Sankus should have raped someone, or robbed them at gunpoint. He'd be out in half the time.
Back, long ago, the reason I bought a modem was to go on BBS's, AOL, CompuServe, Prodigy, use my 20 hours free with every place I could...
What'd I do? Chat? MUD?
Nope.
I downloaded all the software I could. I carefully metered out file sizes, what I wanted...$3.00 a disk from the shareware catalogs was too much to pay. Granted, most of the stuff I downloaded was freeware/shareware, but I did get a few 'warez' programs.
I'm consistantly amazed at how harshly software "pirates" are treated and condemned. Despite the wild allegations of software groups that these file-sharers cost the industry billions of dollars, their figures usually rely on the clearly misguided assumption that, were it not for the availability of free copies of these programs, the people that download them would purchase them legally. In all my experience, the people that download software like this for the most part do so for purposes that would never warrent legitimate purchase. In the past, I (err, I mean a friend) has downloaded numerous 3D software packages each costing $1000's. I'm not a professional 3D graphic designer, and there's no way I would ever pay that much for a hobby. I believe that most professionals and companies do purchase their software legitimately, and the free distribution of much of this expensive software does not effect their purchasing decisions. In many cases, illegal copying increases the profits of many products, as people that download the software for free at home will be more likely to encourage its use at the office. I recall an example where it appeared that MS was deliberately allowing rampant unauthorized distribution of Windows in many parts of Europe where computers were still far from ubiquitous in an effort to establish Windows as a standard. I am appaled that armed raids and significant jailtime are used so freely against copiers whose crimes, I believe, minimally effect a significantly profitable industry, while real white-collar criminals, like Enron and Worldcom executives whose crimes financially devastate thousands and whose intentions were pure greed, often suffer far less harsh penalties, and are seldom, if ever, sent to jail.
Mod me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Her middle name is eight? She's 31337 too!
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
So you advocate the valuation of a sophisticated tool for skilled artists based on what you can do with it? It's not my intent to offend you, but might I suggest using something else that's more in line with your skills, price range, and scope of application?
OK. I'll bite.
Such as what?
How about teaching them that it's wrong to steal? I guess it's not that hard to figure out why disasters like Worldcom and Enron happen.
No problem. I've been reading Slashdot so long I didn't notice the mistakes.
(Seriously, has anyone else had a similar problem? I've noticed that reading SD/blogs/newsgroups has degraded my spelling skills.)
I've thought the same thing for the past couple of years. Why the hell can't software companies make their products free for non-profit use? The answer is probably lawyers who are trying to protect their jobs (free for non-profit software == fewer lawsuits == fewer lawyers), lawyers who have no motivation to make good business decisions (after all, it is easier to say "there are many legal reasons why we must charge for our software" than go with the riskier approach of suggesting that it be free for non-profit use), or upper-level management with no business sense. Businesses who need it for commercial reasons and anyone who wants tech support will buy the product, or maybe just a tech support subscription. There is usually more money to be made in charging less for a popular product than charging more for a niche product, and making your software free for non-profit use would probably make it a hell of a lot more popular.
P.S. - this one is a troll!
--Keeping the flame wars alive, one post at a time
From the article:
"It's the same reason that people join gangs," said Allan Doody, the Customs Service investigator who led the DrinkorDie investigation, part of a broader anti-piracy campaign called Operation Buccaneer. "They're hanging out on the cyber-street corner."
But in contrast to petty criminals and warring gangs, Internet piracy groups have a worldwide impact of at least tens of millions of dollars, if not more. Such groups secure their reputations by releasing thousands of free movies, games, music and software programs on the Internet each year.
So, distributing copyrighted materials is worse than such "petty criminal activity" as drive-by shootings, drug sales, and car theft? I'm glad our law enforcement dollars are being invested wisely to get this vicious criminals off the street.
(And yes, they are criminals, I just object to the implied severity of their crimes.)
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
How did software companies manage to lose 10 billion dollars to piracy? This seems to me like an insanely high number.
In my experience, about the only place software companies lose money to pirates is with games. And even then, just because someone downloaded a cracked copy of a game from the internet doesn't mean they would have otherwise bought the game. While this person did steal, the company they stole from probably didn't really lose any money. It is getting a little tiresome having every group and company from the RIAA to the MPAA to the software business coalition or whatever claim that every pirated song, video, and piece of software is a lost sale. I would say maybe 10% of them are, if that. This isn't to say that these companies aren't hurt to some extent by piracy, but they have this tendency of vastly overstating their losses that borders on the criminal.
The guy in the article complaining about losing sales on his $9,500 program is REALLY out of it. Anyone who is going to use that software profesionaly is going to pay for it; the ones that are downloading pirated versions of it are individuals who are curious, or want to learn how to use it, and have no chance in hell of being able to afford it. If the guy had any brains at all, he would recognize that if anything, piracy of such a specialized, expensive piece of software could only increase sales in the long term.
And 40 armed customs agents to take down this scary 29 year old Gateway tech? How much did THAT cost? If I was the owner of that Gateway store, I would be pretty pissed off, cause that raid probably cost a significant amount in sales. After reading in the paper, or seing in person a bunch of armed customs agents take down an employee, how likely would you be to shop there? Is the customs service so deranged that they think this guy is going to escape if they only send 3 or 4 guys? Or 2? Or even 1?
I don't think I would have known about half of the expensive software that I made my company spend big $$$$$ bucks on after I downloaded it to try it out.
I used to be heavy into warez. Games, in particular. Back in the day, I could get most of the games I wanted but there was still a minor hassel factor involved.
Now that I have a real job and no time to hang out on the computer 4hours a day downloading warez, I have to buy all of the games I want.
Without doubt, I buy significantly less games than I used to get as warez. So, if someone was doing an empirical study, they would see that during my "warez years", I "stole" hundreds of thousands of dollars in software, however, if you compare that to what I would have actually bought, the difference is HUGE. I *might* buy 3-5% of the games I used during my warez days.
I believe that this was covered on Slashdot a few months back. You see Ambrosia is a smaller applications/game developer for the Mac platform. They sell most of their really cool apps and games for a very low price. Something less then 30 bucks, I believe.
Anyway, they got into this activation-like scheme because they would put up a piece of software for sale and would have something like 100 people buy it. Then they would have 1000's of people request technical support for the product. After having this happen a few times, they started putting the thumbscrews in place.
What else could you do? You spend all your PAYED time developing a great application or game. Sell it inexpensively hoping that many people will buy it. Then only a handfull of people do, but they give it away to everyone that they know and also don't know. Then all those punks start calling you up and asking for support.
That's not right, no matter how you look at it.
-.-
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
I'm waiting for the day I see the headline, "New York Times Looks at Porn"...
--
http://www.aikiweb.com - AikiWeb Aikido Information
The sick part of this is that I live in a slightly rough neighborhood - there is a good place to get carjacked a few blocks down the street, there are gangs in the park at the end of my block, and plenty more that I don't know about. And the government is paying 40 Customs Agents to bust a 120 pound warez d00d? It's really fucking disgusting that we waste resources on solving "problems" like warez when there are real problems, like crime and poor healthcare.
dbc
Like the other gentleman commented, if they can sell hundreds of thousands of units at $60, then it's not a ridiculous price.
And if that were justification for stealing it (they priced it too high!), then let me know, 'cause there's a Corvette I have my eye on that I can't afford. =)
Wareze are programs witch you can't get because production and support has stopped... so your able to get them.
Oh wait... You can't get an $18,000 program that you plan to use just to learn for the fun of it.. or educate yourself WITHOUT TECH SUPPORT.
I personally feel that Open Source should be a policy... No more Accounting foofes, no more control of the system by non elected officials(elected people are people you directly choose to fund... with time, respect, and or cash)
I wonder how hard it was to gather 40 armed stupid people to storm that guys house?
I wonder how hard they looked for a passive individual who they could make say "I felt like I was a murderer" or something like that... to make an example of?
Has anybody placed a law enforcement person under citizens arrest for violation of civil rights? Or the procecuter?
We all live in a yellow submarine
Please use [ informative / summarizing ] SUBJECT LINES
Flame me here
"If you like torching houses for fun, you don't gain anything from torching somebody's house," he said. "But that homeowner will certainly suffer a material loss."
/. effect for that matter) but in that case egging the house would be better, however it makes no sense pertaining to software piracy. There is no direct collateral damage to the victems. The only loss is in potential lost sales due to the fact that the product you made is now being offered for free so people may not spend the money to buy your product. Even in this case the majority of the time the people who illegally use your product are very likely not the ones who would be buying it. A better analogy would be if you charged admission for people to walk around your house without disturbing anything and people were sneaking around for free (although this is a pretty contrieved analogy).
Perhaps that comparison would kind of work for crackers taking down a webserver (or the
I stole this Sig
I'll buy that this guys 'deserves' 46 months. He 'stole' "millions of dollars". Cool. No problems.
How much time for Kenneth Lay?
WorldCom. Billions of dollars.
That would have to add up to life after life term.
Yah right.
Seriously though.. w/o warez, a lot of people would probably not be where their at today.
Like my friend, he got his first copy of visual basic 3 back in the AOL proggie days. After that, he was hooked, and now, he's at MIT.
Same similar story for me with a copy of Photoshop 4. I'm sure MANY other people have had the same experience.
So 8. is the abbreviation for 8
doesn't make sense to me.
You actually gave them your real email address?
http://www.mav-aid.info/
Cannibalism is what it is.
Blearf. Blearf, I say.
Yeah, I'm sure that's what the two cops who went in to bust Trinity at the beginning of the Matrix thought, and they ended up in a world of hurt..
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to compare a 29 year old still living with his parents to Trinity, but ya never know what you're gonna get..
Insightful! :)
um how many companies DO give out their old games and software for free? Not damn many.
When you buy a piece of software for an expensive price, you are buying more than just the functionality of the software. You are buying the exclusivity of that software. Higher prices means that your competition doesnt necessarily have access to the software which gives you the edge, albeit a slight one.
When I can go to Blockbuster and rent Photoshop for a weekend (just like a PS2 game) cuz I want to play around with some personal photos then there won't be a need to pirate it.
OSS should want to stop traditional software piracy. When people can't get those expensive programs for free anymore(ms office anyone?) they will either pay the price, find an alternative, or do without. I would bet that most of the time a free OSS alternative will do just fine for the average user. This could actually cause a increase in the usage of OSS.
It's obvious that what these guys were doing is illegal. Still I feel sorry for them, with their multi-year prison sentences, because they really weren't costing the software industry that much money in lost sales, and because they are scapegoats.
As many others have said, most people wouldn't have bought the very expensive applications anyhow. When someone makes a pirated copy of Photoshop to do web graphics, at worst, they are depriving The GIMP community of a new user, or depriving Jasc of $99 -- usually not depriving Adobe of $600. There is some financial impact on the industry, but the numbers are lower. Also, there are plenty of software copiers. Software "theft" won't be reduced one iota by locking these guys up.
The reason for that is, they were just functioning as a completely essential part of a healthy information economy -- the underground. Why is it essential? One reason is that, espescially near the turning points in society and revolution, information occasionally must transcend barriers created by law. If these underground data networks -- very small ones, if you believe the numbers in the NYT article -- are maintained, hidden, and keep working based on an economy of commercially available pilfered information, and if more citizens are trained in how to communicate covertly, and people are indoctrinated to know that storing or exchanging illegal information may not actually be wrong, then our surveillance-laden society has paid a fair price.
The loosely hierarchical distribution network used by warez kidz is analogous in form and function to those used in China and other repressive regimes by political dissidents. Capable of passing only information, peer-organized, and with a medium level of identity isolation -- bring down one and you bring down a few others, but not the whole group. Personally, I feel more secure knowing that there exist these sophisticated illegal networks, capable only of traffic in information, that would be rather difficult for any authority to completely shut down. Who knows when they may be needed...
-=Ivan (actually not very paranoid at all)
"Here are a few notes from the underground / load them at your pleasure / These are the dusty pictures that I found / while on my search for treasure" -- Information Society: Mirrorshades
At Vold Solutions seems like he was sort of asking for it in a way. His product "rotate" is dongle protected although a lot of people have known since the days of autocad that dongles offer next to no protection as a cracker will get past it very soon in any case. In fact, dongles only hinder the customer at using the product legally and add incentive to a cracker "just to show off a bit".
I know that while his company survives off this single product, and it has a limited niche target market, I can't imagine many people wanting to use a crack of this thing. A product like this lives and dies on the support offered by the vendor, not on the protection offered by the dongle. My guess is that old Havard Vold was just too pickled pink at the free publicity offered by the NYT article.
er, no - I disagree.Given that you are making a moral/ethical rather than a legal statemnt I'll make the counter argument that it is ethically & morally wrong to deprive another human being access to a tool that they could use to improve their condition because they cannot afford it, when it costs you nothing at all to provide them the tool.
You sir are in the untennable position of proposing that money is the ultimae judge of a mans worth. Well - thats MY moral / ethical judgement.
more simply i just think youre an idiot.
if somebody downloads an $18,000 program, but would never have been able to afford it otherwise, how can that company claim to have lost an $18,000 sale?
Now when will we read more about the CEOs and other corporate executes who have deprived the good citizens of this country of billions of REAL dollars through their skimming and shady accounting practicies? Can we give this corporate rape a nickname? Can we make comparisons like "The CEO of suchandsuch is kind of like the guy who robs the 7-11 except he hit 10 million of them and left behind several million victims. Their sentences should be served concurently."
Yeah, piracy is illegal, but I'm not seeing it at risk of pushing the world into a recession or worse depression, as investors and fund administrators move their money out of corporate stocks faster than they did in 1929...
Really curious. He was represented by Harvey Sernovitz of Philadelphia. I cannot find even a web page for this attorney.
Was he appointed one by the court?
"There ought to be limits to freedom"
LAST week, at age 29, John Sankus Jr. moved out of his parents' house for the first time.
Homer Simpson after checking his eyes in a pool that turns into a giant snake that slithers away: Oooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaay...
a3c6 0e89 b1ec aa4d d630 26c8 d07e 7eed 8148 5503 02b4 dfaa 9922 b28d 0820 c4af
Ok, so every time one of these stories about the BSA/RIAA/MPAA/etc. gets posted, the original source quotes some number ($10.1 billion this time) that was provided by the company that claims to have been harmed. And people try to compare it to stealing a car or something. In most instances, there is no physical loss of property--in fact the pirate usually uses up his/her own allotment of bandwidth and hard drive space (not to mention time), in order to distribute said IP. So, yes it's more harmful than some people would have you believe, but no it's not the same as someone stealing your car.
Second, does anyone else here not realize that companies like microsoft have huge investments marketing surveys about how much someone will pay for the latest release of windows/office? You know they've considered that for a sale of $X, they'll make $Y profit, and that Z people will buy the product and Q will "pirate" it, and that $X is their "sweet spot" for profit. If they charged less, there would be less piracy, but their profit margins wouldn't be as high... they don't really *want* less piracy.
They've decided how much piracy they want, and charged appropriately.
!Viva El Juarez! Warez lives forever! But, anyways, guys i don't think they shut down the wares copyright enfringement ring! LOL P.S. Juarez is a city in Mexico, on the border by El Paso, Where you can buy anything for under $3! and I mean EVERYTHING!
"We never anticipated that a company would lose a sale as a result of one guy in China downloading it and burning it onto a CD and selling it to half of China."
The article presents this as an attempt at a legitimate argument, but I can't imagine it being said with anything less than dripping sarcasm. I mean it already goes way beyond what any sane defendant would verbalize in this situation. I guess the guy really hasn't left his Mom's basement since high school.
Ok let's face it. You could bust into anyone's house and get them for pirating music, software, or even movies (vhs or digital). The bigger issue is that "kiddies" tend to have the shorter attention spans and need more variety in their computing to satisfy them.
Back when I was a lad (pre-net), Nintendo kept me entertained for hours on end. And I did buy Super Mario Brothers 2 for $89.00 CAD. Pretty stoopid, but I wasn't connected yet. The nintendo didn't need to be changed with every new release for the game.
I'm sorry but software pushes hardware and to keep up with your friends you have to pirate the varity of warez out there.
Take the flipside. I regularly buy software like Theme Park, Deux Ex, and FIFA2002 when they're in the bargin bin for under $20.00.
You can never stop piracy because of the same fundamental thinking that MP3's have gained. Music should be free, gamez should be free. I did have to spend $300 bucks on a video card just to play the damn game.
As my years roll on, I'm pirating less, because my attention span is increasing, and I'm spending more time and energy on single applications and gamez again.
Oh and my favorite concept is the little shop owner with his $9500.00 application. Excuse me, but what INDIVIDUAL would have bought that? Companies, surely. But if you're a company buying his software, your making money and must buy the software as a fact of doing business.
Yo Grark
Spammers, please email me haha@nono.net
Canadian Bred with American Buttering
Using software you haven't bought is theft. That's the law so too bad.
The question comes, is how *bad* is it?
"I would never have bought it, so the sware company loses nothing, and gains nothing"
Furrymuff. I'll go a long with that. More so, there are millions of people using pirated softare for personal use who fit into that category - the respective law enforcement agencis gonna bust them all?
No.
Now. What about yerman who has 100+ gigs of warez sitting on a publicly accessible HD?
This is a different kettle of fish. They may be a hoarder for the hell of it, but (s)he has perhaps crossed the line because now they are distributing said illegal content.
This is the bug up the sware Co's ass. Since it makes it easier for the big fish to get a hold of fresh, big sware, copy it and sell it on.
*off-topic switch*
The British government just made it 'legal' to own and use cannabis (not in front of the children, mind' by declassing it to a class C drug, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME tripling the maximum penalty of supplying cannabis to 15 years.
This keeps the punters happy, while severely deterring the fly-by-night dealer. (Additionally, increases in demand should deter increase in prices for cannabis in the UK, IMO)
So, why do this for cannabis?
Perhaps the stiff 15 yr penalty for dealing it will scare off the sardines, and leave wide open the bigger fish free for the catch. Maybe not.
Could such a similar scenario not exist for warez?
As I said at the beginning, just something floating around in space while reading this thread...
Well then, it wouldn't be 'pirating' if it were free, would it?
I know Kensington build this cool USB 2 device kind of like in that Keanu Reeves movie Johnny Mnemonic, only sort of different. I looked on their site but it's not posted yet. I don't think it's out yet. Anyway, this device plugs into your brain and you can back up your memories because they're really just files and I guess they figured that the brain is really a lot like UFS formatted or maybe NFS+ I don't remember.
Anyway, it's cool because you can download your brain and defragment it before a test or whatever to fix things up. So I was thinking about this and I was like, "Whoa, what if I left my brain plugged in to this and fell asleep and somebody hacked into my machine and stole a backup." At first I was like, dude, that's not right, that's my memories! That would SUCK! I thought. So I decided to play a game I downloaded of IRC and realized that since my life is pretty boring almost no one would ever PAY download my brain filez, so they're not really stealing or anything.
So what's the deal with software companies?! GREEDY LAWYERS I think. Later.
Slashdot RoXKZ!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The best part from a libertarian standpoint is that action like this doesn't really require Congress to debate for months and pass a lot of new laws to do it. For obvious reasons, it's already against the law to cheat investors, so we can modify the standard punishments meted out by judges for these corporate thieves to be comparable to drug lords and other scum that ruin people's lives.
Let's get tough and let's be consistent. Let's be consistent in our punishments against criminals that harm the lives of millions. No more slaps on the wrists, pay a fine and walk, right? Something that the most politically conservative person and frothing socialist hippie can agree on is that there should be consistent and fair punishment to the greedy corporate cads. We all agree, right? Good, it's settled then:
Throw all the commercial software pirates, file-swapping thieves and bandwidth parasites into the nearest Federal penitentiary.
I ask myself if the customs officials sending 40 men over to arrest a 29 year old juvenile delinquent and getting the poor fool sentenced to 4 years while fucking bastards like Ebbers and lay get away with a little embarrassment isn't pornography? It seems that it always amounts to the haves whipping out their shlongs and urinating in the faces of the have-nots, and having a good laugh about it while the have-nots grovel about in the dirt, choking.
I wonder when normal people in this century will finally have had enough of being treated like fucking peasants in medieval Europe with agencies, big corporations and governments acting like feudal barons and start to say "Kill the RIAA, Kill the MPAA, Kill Microsoft, Kill the BSA"?
Without getting into an argument on whether warez is right or not I found a few questions arising in me head while reading the article.
First, do any of these people crying about warez realize that the following activities are also illegal: Copying audio tapes (tape to tape, cd to tape, radio to tape etc.), recording movies off of T.V., photo copying lyrics from your favorite song (any form of copying of your favorite song, even in pencil), playing music over an intercom/phone system, etc. Even when it is for personal use it is illegal. Read the copyright laws, they are very interesting.
Second, what are the estimates of money lost from warez? And how are these estimates arrived at?
Third, directly relating to the article and Mr. Vold who was interviewed, how many people who use or distrib warez actually use his software? Here is his site in case you wanted to see what the software is: http://www.vold.com
In other words, how can Mr. Vold be complaining about loosing money if it cannot be determined that he has lost money in the first place? Appealing to peoples sensibilities in order to win an argument is considered poor, if not false, logic.
Finally, if you are into logic at any level, anyone catch Mr. Vold's false analogy? He equated warez with an arsonist. He said, "If you like torching houses for fun, you don't gain anything from torching somebody's house," he said. "But that homeowner will certainly suffer a material loss." Once again we are being asked to believe that these poor, innocent people are loosing money in this whole thing, something that has yet to be proven. However, in Vold's case it would seem that it would be safer to bet that he has lost no money then to bet the opposite.
I don't have a problem so much with developers and companies wanting to sue for perceived damages due to software cracking and distributing, that is their right, but to put the offenders in jail for it? That is going a bit to far, especially since it is vary difficult if not impossible to prove what, if any, damages have been incurred.
The `warez scene' was alive and well long before that. Back before the Internet explosion, warez was traded via BBS's, and by people bringing boxes full of floppies to their friends houses who had copy parties. Or they'd borrow a school's computer lab (rows of Apple II's) and set every one copying ...
It seems that the NYT thinks that the warez scene needs the Internet to `take root' in. Not at all -- it'll root in anything it can, be it face to face meetings, BBS's, the Internet, or whatever comes next.
Many who are now in high school or just entering college were taught in primary school that they could spell words however they wanted to, instead of spelling them the proper way, because that would stifle their creativity or something. I wasn't part of this, but I know many people who were, and A WHOLE LOT OF THEM cannot spell for crap. Does anyone have a clue what I am talking about or can back this up for me?
What?
. . . for the poor guys from DoD who were thrown in jail? They could probably use some moral support, a few bucks for smokes, or a file.
CEE5210S The signal SIGHUP was received.
And they certainly won't send 40 stormtroopers to bust Ken Lay...
One of the things that I don't like about the Bush administration is that they seem to take the second view. That is, they go around figuring out who they don't like and hurting them. Along those lines, they promote a view where a law abiding "Good Public" needs to go around smugly beating on law breaking "Bad Individuals".
The current case is an example of this. Even though these "warez gangs" would be totally inconsequential without a general public that was eager to take advantage of their services, it is a few individuals in these "warez gangs" that are targeted. In this particular case, it sounds like the software that was cracked wasn't even used by the "warez gang", but it was the "warez gang" that 's going to jail.
Another tech news site lets others use their account to follow up on the story's they post.
User/pass megarad
And yes, while commercial piracy exists, does the BSA seriously think that commercial pirates aren't capable of doing their own cracks? They're in a totally different space from what it sounds like these warez guys are doing. The idea that commercial pirates wouldn't exist without the warez crowd is ludicrous. The most popular targets for commercial pirating (Microsoft Office, etc.) aren't even copy protected.
None of this is any news to /. readers but it's sad that the NYT swallowed the BSA line so readily. Some tougher questions definitely would have been in order.
People pay for the infrastructure for distribution. People buy computers, MP3 players, and internet access in large part to reach copyrighted material At one point during napster's height, a third of all traffic at some ISPs was for napster downloads. Instead of trying to control and limit distribution through piracy regimes, copyright holders should be working to impose a small tax on the distribution infrastructure and mechanisms to apportion the proceeds equitably.
In addition to eliminating the Spy vs Spy warfare between hoarders and pirates (amusing as it can be to watch sometimes), this type of approach would provide a solid economic base for web publishing. It might even get rid of adds on slashdot.
While i've never been overseas, from what I hear piracy is rampant. Microsoft is trying to sell $100 to a family in russia that makes zilch. There are massive piracy for profits outfits in countries like russia and china, where they just sell software for $2 among crowds of other vendors. And while I don't feel it's right to mess shut those pirates down, they play a robin hood role in my mind, shouldn't that be a larger target? And I'd also like to be one of the many people here to point out that just because I've pirated software such as AutoCAD, 3DSMAX, Logic, Cubase, Photoshop, blah blah, etc..., doesn't mean that software companies are losing out on $30k. I would have NEVER purchased that software. They simply provided me with some entertainment and exploration on a rainy day. Anyone who has a legitimate use for AutoCAD...has the cash to pay for it. Anyone who needs $10k software...has the means to pay for it. Warcraft 3 is a differen't story however. Stats saying that software companies are losing out on billions of dollars is insane.
Only the meek get pinched. The bold survive.
From the article " The pirates are organized into two main types: release groups that produce the pirated works and courier groups that serve as worldwide distributors. "
Make that three types. Some of us just download free goodies and keep our pie-holes shut about it. :)
That's why you use this shit.
How many of us owe learning our career/job skillz/etc. to the use of warez?
I was never be able to afford any of the software that I now master (and make money using)...
Know any kids using a warez version of Maya 3D so they can learn 3D modeling/animation?
(coughing up $8000 when you're 13 is out of the question)
Ever learn Java with the help of MS J+?
Learn "multimedia" with Macromedia Director?
Learn about network admin with Sniffer Pro?
Game companies charge exhorbitant prices for their products. Where does this money go? Mostly to cover the cost of marketing, programmers, middlemen in retail, etc. But ask yourself what has been the biggest breakthrough in game design in the last 10 years. It's mostly the art design, isn't it? Game companies employ overworked, underappreciated artists who are treated like ordinary employees. They generally receive a flat rate for designing the look of the game and they don't get any significant percentage of sales. Rather than buying the game at a store, get it off Gnutella and send a couple of $$ to the people who really deserve it.
-a
How to rationalize theft.
That old right-wing BS. Just because they keep saying it on talk radio, doesn't make it true.
Militant Terrorism. When shareware crackers get bored, they either join Bin Laden and wreck havoc.
Jennifer 8 was also a movie back in '92
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0104549
Piracy is good for the individual, for the companies, and
..Also, we should stop throwing humans into jail for every little fucking unimportant thing..
for the competitive market.. If a program/movie/song is good,
people will buy it (if the price is right), even if it exists
as "warez". Warez allows people to really test programs, se if a movie is great, etc, also,
it allows people to be productive / to learn.
Does a 15 year old kid afford a drawing-program for 600 dollars?
Does a 15 year old kid afford a compiler from borland for several hundreds of dollars?
(that was my situation - i didnt know about gnu / gcc that time). (with a warez version of the borland c++ compiler, he/she can learn to programm, and then be a productive member of society, and repay, several times over, what he borrowed as young).
Does a 15 year old kid afford 100 of movies?
NO!
He watches those movies, and BUY the BEST of them.. His money will
be spent; so therefor he is NOT stealing from anybody. If he would not
have downloaded his software/movies, he would not have seen them/used them.
And is a world, where digital information can be copied 1 billion times
at no cost, a good world where such copying is forbidden and there are
virtual prices at all products?
Remember: People who does piracy DOES spend all their money..
Remember2: The big software/movie companies are already filthy rich, and
it IS wrong to give them more money. When/if the production costs are
met, the software/movie companies should give away their products IMO.
It would be the best for mankind. Money making does not make the world
a better place. Warez is.
Check out these 2 articles...
http://www.poynter.org/centerpiece/030702_pearl
slight bio here.
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/ask_re
Can't back this up... in my experience, it's simply that learning to spell is not exactly interesting, for either the students or the teacher. Basically, anyone without a decent memory doesn't learn to spell for crap. Noone bothers to emphasize, for instance, that people have trouble taking you seriously when you cant compose a simple correct sentence in your native tongue.
How about this, spotted in an email from a branch manager (multiple people under his command):
"I have done my fear shear of work."
That is just plain illiteracy... and he was older than me, so he wasn't being taught in any 'new touchy-feely' way.
With all of these losses, do they actually put these numbers in their books that they lost X millions of dollars within the last year or month?
I hate to say it, but several of my friends, including myself, would not be employed at the moment if it weren't for gaining knowledge through warez. That is how skills are learned. And the classrooms that you pay small lab fees for the LE editions of whatever piece of software - well, that just doesn't do the job.
If they want to protect the software - as noted in an earlier post - they need to impliment communications back to the mothership.
just some sobering things:
A:Software people charging 60 bucks for a game, even a good game, then having the gaul to not take the game back because of the purty over hiped 3D polygon shit for a 4 month old computer strugling it deserve to go fucking bankrupt.
B: Warez, I'd amused if the zeolus econmists that say: well you know people making a duplicate of our software is tetimount to theft and blah blah blah: Ok asshole it's scale of fucking meens time I took math and human psychology:
want your shit to fly right off the damn shelf:
30 bucks for a game, my game should not be the same fucking price as two bags of 2 for one safeway nock off groceries.
nor should it be the same fucking price as a months worth and rent
charge 40 bucks for a GOOD addictive game, take it back NO questions asked within one week, allow an exchange after that
or better yet charge 15 for the first month it's out then 25-30
20 bucks is a tank of gas,30 is food for a week
BIG difference
would you rather have: A thousands purchase it at 20, a few hundered at 40 or a handful at 80? Perssonally I think if you charge saay 25-30 and you got thousands of people with it AND make a kick ass rep for people thinking: Oh what the fuck it's "ONLY" 20-30 bucks.
yes you still need to pay your light bills and I agre with that, but fucking a.
Adobe: WHAT in THE fuck? 800 fucking dollers for what? something that makes purty pictures?
Kiss my fucking ass
This is absolutely true. But it's only a teaching technique that are used by utilized by individual teachers. To my knowledge, it isn't a part of any particular enforced instruction format. In any case, kids as young as 5 or 6 are encouraged to scribble down "words" and scratch out sentences as soon as they can recognize the alphabet - in essence, the youngsters are freed to mis-spell words however they please and however the words sound to them. The resulting "gobble-de-gook" is then "re-interpreted" by the teacher again - i.e. she scratches out in tiny notes of what the child meant immediately next to the mess the child has just produced.
My understanding is that this allows kids to continue to practice and develop hand-eye coordination as well as allowing them to get comfortable with their "writing" muscles. The point is that sometimes their muscles are ready for the mechnics of writing but their language and the brain part isn't all quite there yet.
Wow, that was a real trip down memory lane, its been many years since I could claim RiSC/RZR/DoD (4+ ish), and I'm just glad I got out (scared strait) before they started indiscriminately handing out 3 and 4 year sentences. (My colleagues and I were let off with 'warnings' durning the 97' raids)
Unless your in the 'game' you'll never understand it. Its the same with anything I guess, its easy to crticize on the outside but until you have the fealing of 'cracking' your first game, or having leach acsess on a 0 day site with every software appliation released in the past 5 years, well, you really feel like your on top of the world.
So ends my trip down memory lane and great feelings of nostalgia. My thoughts will be with my former group members and for what its worth I wish you my best.
Anyway, one of the arguments the warez people often use, and which for some reason always gets ignored is this one: most people who use "pirated" software would have never bought it anyway. I don't understand how they can come up with these wild figures: over 10 bilion dollars lost on piracy, because people who would have never bought it anyway have... Well... Not bought it... Anyway...
How can it hurt the industry? What difference in income does it make to Adobe if John Doe doesn't pay for using Photoshop, instead of not paying for not using it? Either way, John don't pay.
Install windows on my workstation? You crazy? Got any idea how much I paid for the damn thing?
First let's examine some of the extreemist language used. How about arson? "If you like torching houses for fun, you don't gain anything from torching somebody's house," he said. "But that homeowner will certainly suffer a material loss." This was used to justify 3 to 4 year jail terms. "Pirates," must be everyone's favorite. Somehow, I just can't see the techie with a sword or even a " ringleader of an international gang of software pirates that deprived companies of millions of dollars through the illegal distribution of copyrighted software, games and movies ." He was delclared worse than "petty criminals and warring gangs". The launguage seems to have worked as he says, "I felt like someone who had just murdered 50 people," Don't forget the criminal code of conduct secretive and vicious even to each other, "warez groups themselves tend to operate in secrecy, relying on encryption technologies, disguised Internet Protocol addresses and invite-only chat channels. And their world is highly structured, with a strict hierarchy and rules." Is that violent and sinister enough a description for a group of people who, horors, copy DVDs?
Did this poor sap really "...have a worldwide impact of at least tens of millions of dollars,
Or is the BSA, which routinely raids public schools to extort millions of dollars a larger threat to society? The NYT cluelessly quotes the BSA for dramatic effect: " The copies "become the raw materials that others use for commercial piracy," said Bob Kruger, president of the Business Software Alliance, an industry group that asserts that software piracy costs $10.1 billion a year in lost sales worldwide." Rat shit, extra coppies of movies are typically seen in the same places that made the "official" versions of popular culture. They come encrypted, just like the "official" ones two. In fact, they are often identical, wonder where they come from? Must be some dude living in his mom's house and all his evil friends.
They are then portrayed as hurting the little folks worst of all,
Vold Solutions, was horrified to discover that DrinkorDie had released a free version of a specialized engineering program that his company sold for $9,500. "That was very scary," Mr. Vold said. "They do not understand the impact of copyright infringement, especially on the smaller companies."
Incredible! Show me an engineering firm that would use unlicensed software and I'll show you a firm that won't buy software! But here is that "pirate" stealing the bread from the mouths of Vold's children. Show me one of the world's five music publishing firms that is NOT making a killing despite killing Napster and seeing their sales fall back to earth. Show me one movie company that has not had it's "best year ever."
OK that's enough picking that thing apart, it's depressing. It bothered me when I read it yesterday, but the more you look at it the dumber it is and the more depressing the stupidity is. People really believe that kind of shit. They absorb it without thinking. I'll bet the author even thought it was true.
The article tells us the bad guys got away and other bad dupes quickly took up the missing "pirate" slack. I'm afraid that the bad guys are the ones did get away, and get richer everytime you turn on the radio, watch a movie, eat the crap food they advertise (that's why we are obese), and the shoddy merchandise that's product placed and subliminally linked to your deepest desires. They are the ones creating an unhealthy need to consume more than we need without ever achieving more than momentary pleasure. The Warez movement is a direct result of a "consumer" society. It's what they really want us to be, slaves to garbage, willing to sacrifice our time and ...
I'm going to play with my baby girl now.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
WHAT?!?!?! Let me guess... Bin Laden was a warez d00d who got bored with the scene. He said "fuck keygens... let's blow up buildings!" You my friend have done WAY TOO MANY drugs......
Chevy Chase: "You do drugs Danny?"
Danny: "Everyday...."
Chevy Chase: "Good. Good."
Does this sound like the author is saying it's better for society than young folks be in a street gang than a w@r3z d00d? Interesting point of view. Hold on while I shoot someone for wearing a purple shirt.
When you go to the doctor what are you paying for? He doesn't give you anything PHYSICAL. When you call a plumber to come over what do you pay him for? He also is unlikely to give you anything PHYSICAL unless you consider his $200 bill for 1 ft of lead pipe to be a bargin.
When you steal software you STEAL LABOR!!!!
If some guy/group/company spends 2000 hours making a piece of software they want/need at least 2000 hours of money to make the worth while.
2000 hours = 1 man year FYI.
There are a few ways to do this
What's resonable amount of money for 1 hour of labor? You pay the plumber $50 an hour? You pay the doctor like $600 an hour. Programmers in America get on average about $35 an hour ($35 = $70K a year)
2000 * 35 = $70K so if you want his piece of software you pay $70K and it's yours. The problem is most people can't afford $70K so instead he decides to charge $500 and hope he can sell at least 140 copies. Except that Joe Asshole Warez Pirate borrows a copy and puts it on the net and now no one needs to buy a copy since they can STEAL IT FOR FREE even thought they didn't PAY FOR THE LABOR HE PROVIDED.
Stealing an APPLE or a CAR is EXACTLY LIKE stealing software. Why? Why is an apple 50 cents? Is there 50 cents of material in an apple? NO! There's 50 cents of LABOR to get that apple to you. That 50 cents covers the LABOR to get water to the apple to grow it, LABOR to pick it. LABOR to wash it. LABOR to get it near you. etc etc. The APPLE itsself was FREE, picked off a tree provided by Mother Nature.
This would make sense if every piece of software were custome constructed.
But software has a zero marginal value-- you spent all the money on the first one. Each copy is free.
When someone pirates the software, tehy are making free copies-- it didn't cost you any more to make the software because they made free copies-- it cost you the same.
Maybe the argument can be made that you make less revenue due to decreased sales- but I don't buy it-- most software I've pirated in the past has resulted in a sale in the future for the company and at the time I wouldn't have afforded to buy it, but by using the pirated copy, I learned ot love it and did buy it. Eventually, though eventually is sometimes only a matter of days or weeks.
The problem is the sales boost from piracy has not been calculated, and the sales loss has not been shown.
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23
Why? Because I don't run around saying "Linux Rules! The DCMA SUCKS!" like /. wants us all to.
I can't these people are getting sentenced to 3+ years in PRISON for doing this. Rapists and murderers have gotten smaller jailtimes. Hasn't anybody here heard of "cruel and unusual punishment"?
It's a shame, what this "land of the free" is turning into. We're throwing people into long-term prison sentences for civil, nonviolent, questionable crimes. Anybody that agrees with what these prosecutors are doing makes me sick.
Everyone points out that the government has gone overboard, and on certain issues, they definitely have (it doesn't take 40 guys to bring one man in). People claim that the BSA and others exaggerate the figures when calculating lost sales. It would seem in their interest to do so to convince the government of their losses so they enforce certain laws, (however, it definitely hurts them in their PR campaign with the Slashdot crowd). Me and a third to half the people on Slashdot have probably downloaded warez/gamez that we rarely use or play and would have never paid for.
But the fact is, people do pay for it. That's where billions of dollars factor in. Especially if you consider the inclusion of mafias and the like getting involved in some countries. In many nations there are huge black markets for this stuff. I don't know how much they charge (since the black market is relatively small in the US, especially in cities not named LA, NY or Chicago), probably less than 10% of the original price, but it irks me that these people that are pirating are making money doing illegal activity. And while Mr. Sankus didn't make money off of his activities, he is definitely an accomplish to the piracy scene that does exploit such markets. And though the prices may be extreme in some markets, you can't stand on the legal or moral side by pirating the products.
I agree that people can't compare IP theft to physical property theft. If someone steals my car, I can't drive it. It someone copies my software, I can still use it. However, if someone cracks the software and releases it, they allow everyone else to use that software illegally. And though small companies that make niche expensive software might not be getting hurt, since the software is expensive, any sale they lose is much more significant to the company.
I agree with people that the softwares are ridiculously priced. It seems that software companies outprice each other. (Well, since we have to pay $100 for each Windows on our machine, we should sell our software for $200 each.) It just seems that everything (salaries, revenues, losses due to piracy) is inflated. But if you have a complaint with a company then you have several legal options.
1) You can write an email asking for a Lite version (though it would take a lot of users asking for such software before it gets released, each email would be important. Adobe finally got the clue).
2) You can buy competing software that sells for less (though some softwares are only intended for corporate markets and that might not be possible).
3) You can not use the software! Open Source anyone?
People have mentioned that pirating software can lead to that software being used. Then they say that some of those people will later buy it. Um... Is that a good thing? First, people complain about the high prices, then say that they'll buy it. In what market would that encourage software companies to lower prices? The best way to make it heard that you won't pay those prices is to not buy and not use their product. That includes piracy uses. Just don't get lured into the company's products and find alternatives.
Criticism of the the BSA, DMCA, governments handling this, etc.. is all warranted. But criticism of the crackers, piracy vendors AND piracy users (including me) are also warranted. And that last part seems to fall to deaf ears in the slashdot crowd.
Piracy is the less well-off's chance of actually getting any instead of waiting for a crumb to drop off the pigs' table and fighting over it with the other unfortunate bastards. Love the comment from the old guy selling his 9,500$ engineering software about torching houses. The 29 year-old kid is in jail for four years while he would be at great pains to explain how a few illegal copies deprive him of a living, since these are sales which would not have been made in the first place ! Is he out of business since the release of the copy ? No. Is the old hypocrite still making money with his company ? Yes. Is a non-selling software pirate whose copies allow the poor, the young, the students, and others to learn to use out-of-their reach software in jail ? Yes. What are THE PEOPLE waiting for to put all those filthy rich club members (RIAA, MPAA, BSA etc) UP AGAINST THE WALL ?!?
People keep saying the losses due to piracy figures are inflated. I don't disagree, but people here seem to think it's nowhere near $10 billion.
Well, if 200 million people (3.3% of the world's population) pirate $50 worth of something they would buy (I know I have), then that makes $10 billion. Though many pirate software they would never pay for, that's usually for expensive software and a small percentage can level out to $50 a pop. And don't forget that corporations also pirate software. And that people in many countries sell such illegal software. So, a $5 billion dollar mark per year wouldn't surprise me.
I know I'm part of the problem since I've downloaded Fifa 2002, Civ3, etc... It seems some people here in Slashdot are in denial. It's not that I buy into the BSA or shit, it's just that I'm a skeptic. As a skeptic, I must consider valid sides and not be a slave to ANY crowd.
"Although the warez scene took root only in the early 1990's" Bullshit it starter much earlier then 90s.
But businesses still prefer the pile of crap known as SourceSafe because it is cheaper. So why would I spend my time learning how Perforce works when the bean-counters won't ever consider buying it?
Of course there are freebie programs written by students in their spare time that claim to be source control programs, but you have to play a text adventure game to get them setup, and unlike Zork there are no decent strategy guides (CVS has just a pamphlet from O'reilly that doesn't cover any of the front ends!). Also it doesn't have CRCs or an analyze utility and has a chip on its shoulder about binary files. But this is veering offtopic...
So while making stuff available for personal use may be an important strategy, if you price things ridiculously like Maya used to be, or AlienBrain then they may not overcome a cheaper incumbant.
So, distributing copyrighted materials is worse than such "petty criminal activity" as drive-by shootings, drug sales, and car theft?
Yes, you see, piracy actually affects rich people, making them marginally less rich. Obviously a worse crime than drive-by shootings, drug sales, and car theft, which in the main happen in the poorer segment of the community.
deus does not exist but if he does
From my knowledge of US produced films, I know that all US police officers have the right to shoot anyone in the back if they run away after the cops say "Stop or I'll shoot".
Capital punishment seems like overkill to me, especially for the crime of "running away".
And yes, I am happy for Slobodan Milosovic to remain locked up for the rest of his natural life if he is found guilty.
What you cite in your post is free in Linux. There is no reason for a 15YO to break the law when better products are available for free damit!!!
"It's the same reason that people join gangs,"
but in contrast to petty criminals and warring gangs, Internet piracy groups have a worldwide impact of at least tens of millions of dollars, if not more.
Petty criminals and warring gangs. This is too much. First of all, petty criminals have nothing in common with warring gangs. Secondly, warring gangs cause the loss of life. These pirates are harmless, in any real sense. There are no programmers or software developers that are going to be forced into homelessness or bankruptcy by their actions. They may lose money, sure, so fucking what?
This article presents an inflated dollar amount allegedly caused by these people as if it is the greatest evil in the world. If anyone wondered who is really calling the shots, this characterization should go a long way towards illumination.
It is fucking pathetic.
Speaking as Devil's Advocate, "try it out" by buying it at the Used Software Store, or sell your copy there when you're done.
Wait, what about all the LOST REVENUE from all that USED SOFTWARE PURCHASING? Ion never got paid for that copy of Deus Ex that Freddy bought after Tommy sold it to Funcoland! Activision never got paid for the Quake II Sue bought when Sally sold it to Funcoland!
That's why MP3's never bothered me; I've bought 90% of my music from secondhand shops anyway.
With the open source movement growing, I'm more and more willing to say screw these overpriced software companies if they can't offer services that people actually want to pay for. If they go under the market is still strong enough to replace them with someone that can provide what paying consumers want, or someone will offer a similar product in the open source community with the realization that distribution and replication of the product dissolves no real resources!
How much are taxpayers paying for forty armed agents to bust in on a man with stuffed animals in his parents' basement? How much are we paying for the years he'll spend growing bitter and learning about real crime (lessons he'll put to use when he fails to get a job thanks to his marred record) in prison? Well, at least we the tax paying public are a little safer with him behind bars; this stuffed animal toting psychotic monster can't hurt us now.
Are you really willing to pay for expensive laws (emperically flawed laws mind you) designed to help multimillion dollar corporations carry out their smug agendas?
Free Sankus, Free the people, Free yourself
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BWA HA HA HA!!!!!
I can't see with the tears in my eyes!!!
Maybe someone is forgetting something about marketing. If you give the people tidbits and they bite, then they will come back for more with $$$. Look how the Linux market is working. For instance, look at my experience. I've learned to code from pirate development software. There is NO way I could afford these prices in the THOUSANDS. But now, I am familiar and very good with these products and I recommend to by superior to purchase these products so I may develop applications from them. Through my company I am spending more money than I would have if I had never used their product.
I may still use illegal copies at home for personal use so I may learn more, but I do use these publicly I will be definitely have legal copies.
Hmmm. So let's say that I set up a counterfeiting scheme, and begin printing my own money. I'm not hurting anyone, right? I didn't steal anything from anyone, I'm just copying something someone else made, namely the bills made by the federal government. (Similar to warez?)
I can trade these copies for other goods, with people who know they're fake, or even with people who don't... This must mean that they have some value, right? (Similar to warez?)
So I'm not depriving anyone of anything, but what happens when I distribute my copies all over the world? Think, my friends... This is what happens: Devaluation of the dollar. People will be willing to pay much less for a dollar than before.
Software is the same thing, guys. If you devalue software, people won't pay for the real thing, investments in software will fall, the value of the software companies' assets will fall.
It is not theft per se; it is really a devaluation of assets (owned by software writers) by a huge increase in the supply. If you could copy dollars like software, we'd be almost instantly screwed, and everyone knows this. Why is it such a leap from this to software companies?
Here is how I see it: Software sold for $x to n people over the years, yields a value of xn for the software. If c is the number of copies available, the true value of a copy is xn/c rather than x. As c increases above n, xn/c becomes less than x, therefore the value of the software as a whole, xn/c * n, becomes far less as well.
I'm not sure whether anyone has ever looked at things this way, but I find it very compelling.
$17K is an insane price. When I was in college and learning on Photoshop, you got a hefty student discount if you bought it through the campus store. You could get the identical version as regular release for something like 1/3 of the price. A little bit more managable, if you didn't have access to a university copy.
'nuff said.
from capitalizm.org "Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights."
America is a nation where mickey mouse has more rights than you or I do. corperations have become vastly more important to the politicians than individuals. individuals have lost what little remained in terms of rights to privacy in this post september 11 world we live in. and (label) artists are forced to become contract workers for the RIAA if they want to produce music (according to the DMCA). despite the fact that it's unconstitutional mickey mouse has yet to join the arena known as public domain. and because of the actions of the mouse's lobyists neither has any other work or trademark produced in the US in over a decade.
yes, capitalism is dead. Join the collective. We are borg, you will be assimilated. resistance is futile. BTW the nano-machine thing is science-fantasy. The idea is that nanotech will make current manufactuting more efficient. eg: right now it takes a ton of iron and a ton of coal to make a ton of steel. do the math, there is an excess ton of slag/pollution produced. The goal is that nanotech would somehow be able to fabricate the steel without any wasted resources. It still requires energy to power the nano machines, and all the makings of steel to produce it. also, they won't simply be able to cut apart an existing car without having the power needed to cut through it. So essentially, a Nano remanufactured car would cost all the energy of producing a car, but none or very little in the resources department, and the same labor cost as a robotic factory. so in essence a nano-remanfactured car would cost about the same as a almost new used car. in addition to paying the license fee from the manufacturer to have the right to remanfacture your car as a different model. So you see, while your neighbor may not have an issue, the legal team down at BMW certainly does care if you 'take a picture' of your neighbors BMW and get your old (and presumably cheap) car converted into a bmw without paying the license fees. Expect new cars to come with EULAs anyday now.
"Oops, well this time we've got the right guy!"
This was for a prolific serial killer I think.