Slashdot Mirror
More on Microsoft vs. Lik Sang
Levendis47 writes "CNET's News.com is running an article on Microsoft's legal manuevers which have successfully shut down the Lik Sang ecomm store where they've been selling various game system mod chips including the OpenXBox Mod Chip. This leads me to two questions (and I'll admit my ignorance, faux or not, in order to get discussion on this topic): 1) When a customer purchases an XBox (or any game system for that matter) are you intrinsically "signing" an end-user agreement in the purchase that makes modding the device illegal? 2) Could a non-profit org setup an effort to have mod chips produced and "distributed" at the cost of production w/o legal repurcussions? (i.e. would not making a profit on XBox's hardware mods protect you from their wrath?) 3) I understand the whole DRM aspect of mod'ing for playing copied games, BUT, what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such? It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)... "
i hate when someone gets rid of something that is really, really neat because they are a monopoly and they want to ruin everyone and make lots of money
it just happens all the time
Da comp cant tell u da emotional story.It can give u da exact mathematical design,but whatz missin is da eyebrows. -FZ
Another proof, if any more was needed, that US laws don't apply to US citizens only...
I wonder how much of a precendent that can make for the Kazaa case, among others...
Karma cannot be described by words alone.
Threatening a big US corporations profits is so illegal, they'll go after you no matter where you are in the world. The "law" is just the excuse used.
They dont directly mod the Xbox.
They say you need a modded Xbox machine to use it and they are using this clause against possible DMCA issue :
Everything done on this project is for the sole purpose of writing interoperable software under Sect. 1201 (f) Reverse Engineering exception of the DMCA.
So they are perfectly legal imho...
Never learn by your mistakes, if you do you may never dare to try again
Seems to me hardware vendors don't have a leg to stand on concerning aftermarket modifications to their hardware. People have been moding cars for years with aftermarket parts.
Dangit, if I buy the hardware and want to modify it, I payed for it--it's mine--why shouldn't I be able to? Void the warranty, yes. But don't tell me I'm doing something legally wrong.
Selling the hardware is normally a loss-leader with the idea being to get you to buy loads of high profit margin games, which even out the overall deal in their favour.
As soon as you only buy the hardware (because with a mod-chip it makes a cheap general purpose computer) then the finances get all screwed.
"It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)... "
Well, if they weren't selling the devices at a loss I'm sure that just "selling more devices" would be acceptable. They have ot make their money back somewhere (software & accessories).
-- derby
They don't want to sell devices, they want to sell games...
I'm still undecided as to whether the Xbox is a honeypot for MS to see how easy people find it to crack the hardware, in preperation for whatever is going to replace it. I'd like to think it isn't, but then for some reason XP refuses to return any results if I search my entire system for "*.java" in XP, and I'm a Java Developer...
Invoicing, Time Tracking, Reporting
The fact of the matter is that if under current law those companies are the rightsholders, it is up to them to decide whether or not to undertake some alternate distribution method. Just because under some economic analysis such grey activities may help them sell more units does not make those activities any more legal or morally acceptable.
If you honestly a) hate RIAA and b) think that Napster et al increased music sales, then you would NOT have used napster, right?
Another case where an illegal way to use a technology overrides all legal options for use thereof.
<rant>I have to wonder (seeing increased numbers of this kind of decision) how long it will be before PC's are provided in locked boxes and it is illegal for the user to open or in any way modify the contents. All of a sudden we would be renting an appliance rather than owning a system.</rant>
It's not that I'm Anti-American - I'm Pro-Freedom
It seems to me that this whole situation isn't as clear-cut as it may first appear...for starters, there only seems to be once source to confirm that it was Microsoft who ordered Lik Sang closed down (which admittedly was Microsoft itself, but the Australian branch, which from prior experience I know shouldn't be trusted :0).
:0)
Also, why are Lik-Sang still collecting e-mail addresses for people who want to be told when they are back online? Why not just shut down the domain and save on hosting bills? I know most of you are going to say that it's a Microsoft ploy to get a list of addresses of mod chippers, but that's a little farfetched even by MS standards.
The much more likely scenario is that MS doesn't want Lik-Sang to close down altogether (betcha they sell a whole pile more PS2 chips than they do X-Box ones), they just want them to stop selling X-Box mod chips...in which case, the site will be back up in a few weeks, when all the legal problems are sorted and Lik-Sang have "smelt the glove" of Microsoft
===
You know that guy who stole your girlfriend away from you in the summer of '95? He's going to die.
one of the reasons BillG doesnt want modded XBox's is because then people wont buy as many XBox games, just use it as a very cheep linux box. MS losses around$100 on each Box sold, they need to sell like 5 games just to break even (cant remember if this is exactly right, but i know its somwhere in that ballpark) Long story short, they cant afford to sell too many XBox's without games.
If it is your property you should be able to do whatever you want with it.
If as a condition of sale you agree to certain things, then you must conform to them, you are free to buy or not buy. But I should clearly and explicitly tell you BEFORE you purchase the product.
People should be free to have almost any contract they wish, I don't think the government should restrict my freedom by saying I can't enter into a fair and equitable agreement.
Undisclosed onerous conditions should not be be valid.
"It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)... "
But MS does not make a real profit on the devices, only on the software. The XBoxes are dead cheap to make sure people by them, instead of other gaming consoles. So if you have a mod chip that allows the xbox to run other software, even if it's not illegal, then you're still a pain in the ass for microsoft because people use and (possibly) buy less of their software.
You got busted for making (or altering) illegal (or otherwise legal) hardware for a closed system.
Next time anyone does this, make the *source* available so we can do it ourselves, and not force us to pay a red cent to make it work.
*sniff sinff* Microsoft busted us for being a monopoly!
Boo Hoo. Post the source, post the how to's before thinking about selling the unit.
> The chips typically allow a game machine to play legally and illegally copied discs, run unauthorized software, and play game discs intended for other geographic regions.
I buy an Xbox (not that I would), it is therefore mine. I chip it, which presumably voids the warranty, but this is still legal because I own it.
If I use it to play pirated games then I am breaking the law because the vendor has copyright on the game, not because I have done anything illegal with the console.
If I purchased the console then it is up to me to decide what software I run on it. The OEM has no right to tell me what is and is not authorised software.
If I use it to play games from other regions then this should be fine, because the vendor of the game is applying a restraint on trade.
This article seems, like many others, to be offering a report that has little to do with logic or the law but has everything to do with partiality.
The reason they don't want you to be able to run other operating systems on their hardware is that they depend entirely on licensing fees from software sales to make their money. If you buy an XBox, mod it, and run Linux on it, they very likely have lost on the order of $10.
The XBox is probably in trouble as it is.
The Mod chips Lik Sang were selling probably contained partial copies of the BIOS code from the X-box. Since the BIOS code is usually copyrighted this is a copyright violation. While I don't necessarily agree with what MS is doing Lik Sang should have been a little more cautious. They gave MS an easy legal device to threaten them with, copyright violations, when it would've been more difficult to assault them with DMCA in Hong Kong.
STOP ROCK VIDEO
1) When a customer purchases an XBox (or any game system for that matter) are you intrinsically "signing" an end-user agreement in the purchase that makes modding the device illegal?
I haven't seen the packaging, but EULAs aren't that common on hardware purchased. In fact, the traditional business model is that you own the hardware you have purchased, although you do not own the rights to the design. I think MS would object if you were modding boxes and reselling them, however. (We can debate whether they have a legitimate gripe all day....)
2) Could a non-profit org setup an effort to have mod chips produced and "distributed" at the cost of production w/o legal repurcussions? (i.e. would not making a profit on XBox's hardware mods protect you from their wrath?)
I doubt it. First, this isn't about profit, it's about ownership of the design. Microsoft's beef with Lik is that they are infringing on MS proprietary assets. (There's a lot more going on, of course, being that they're MS.) Even a non-profit group is not allowed to ignore intellectual property laws, so there's no protection inherent in being non-profit.
Second, remember that "non-profit" doesn't necessarily mean "makes no money." Many non-profit companies thrive & make a ton of bucks (Underwriters Labs, for ex), but they do not distribute dividends to shareholders. "Profit" is reinvested in the company. (Business gurus, correct any inaccuracies here.) As such, NP companies aren't that much different. They're still making money and paying salaries.
3) I understand the whole DRM aspect of mod'ing for playing copied games, BUT, what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such?
I'm not prepared to address this one right now. (I'm at work, and I could easily spend a day trying to analyze that situation.)
Short version is that MS wants to prevent distribution of a chip they believe infringes on their intellectual property. They aren't really upset with the people making the mods...yet....
Ad luna, Alicia! Ad luna!
United States of America, you've been 0wn3d by
them CORPS.
-><- no
The answers to the questions are IMHO:
1. No, you don't sign an agreement when you buy an XBox. Even if such an agreement was included, it is questionable if this holds any legal value.
2. Profit is not truly an issue in this conflict.
3. There are a few reasons why a MOD chip (and/or its sale) can be illegal:
- The MOD chip contains copyrighted code from the original.
- The MOD chip qualifies as a circumvention device under the DMCA or similar non-US law.
These are usually the reasons a MOD chip is pulled off the market by a court order.
The end of modded XBOXes = The end of my desire to own one.
I'll just have to wait until non blessed code can be run on an XBOX without a mod chip.
Microsoft won't allow anyone to mod their xbox because then anyone could write software for it. If this were to happen, than M$ wouldn't get any money from game publishers, etc for allowing said publishers to distribute games for xbox. They might allow someone to port linux or other OSs to the xbox, but only if that someone were willing to pay the same fees as game publishers (or perhaps even higher fees), but I doubt it. Even then M$ would probably force the ported OS to use DRM, so it would only run the software they chose (ie, whose developers payed them).
"I love the smell of burning Karma in the morning." Codito Ergo Sum.
It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)... "
As far as I know about these things, the hardware is sold at cost or with a loss, and the manufacturers want to get profit out of the games.
Modding it would not increase their profit, instead, as you are running software where M$ (or Nintendo or Sony) they are not paid for.
On the other hand, Sony does support Linux on their PS/2 and develops for it. I guess that they think (rightfully) that if you buy a PS/2, you will most likely buy games for it too. Having Linux (and network on it) might just be the extra push the customer needs.
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
1) When a customer purchases an XBox (or any game system for that matter) are you intrinsically "signing" an end-user agreement in the purchase that makes modding the device illegal
Well, if you aren't, then the GPL isn't binding either, since you aren't intrinsically "signing" anything when you use GPL'd code. Why is it that the EULA is wrong, but the GPL, BSD license etc are OK? After all, in the Unix community (or the traditional Unix community, at any rate) programmers and users were largely indistinguishable, so using source code is analogous to using a consumer application.
Be careful what you wish for: you might get it.
if they can make a buck out of it if they can't control it.
If they DO start putting systems in locked boxes, which they won't because boxed components account for a large slice of hardware sales. But if they DID, well, I've got a large pair of bolt cutters for just such an occasion. :-)
"Da ist ein Technölüst in mein Unterpanten!"
As always, money talks!
1) M$ wants to make money from games and selling expensive SDKs.
2) M$ introduces a console called XBox constructed from a PC with some signing stuff in HW.
3) XBox gets modded fairly quickly.
4) XBox can now run Linux.
5) M$ sees a potential threat divided in two parts a. one can copy games, b. one can use the XBox to pull M$'s legg (running Linux on it).
6) M$ sues the hell out off anyone getting to close.
7) M$ ends up with a huge pile of money!
Please excuse me ranting, but I get so tired of their lame attempts to introduce signing. Use a custom CPU with on-chip signing, a motherboard without any standard devices etc. and it will become harder. They could not for a minute have thought that a PC based console would be left unhacked.
As for custom conponents being more expensive - the *big* money can be found in games, not the actual hw. If they were sure to sell games they could just give the thing away!
I guess this business is just so young, maybe 50 years of serious computer/software business so far, that these failures are just result of immaturity. In my opinion there is nothing so different in this industry of ours and it should just follow the same rules as with everything else - with only minor changes.
Can someone please explain to me what laws where used to stop Lik Sang?
0x or or snor perron?!
This statement makes no sense. Why would MS support Linux - their sworn enemy? Why would they make it easy for people to buy their hardware and run Linux on it?
Even if MS didn't care about Linux, just look at the facts. The Xbox is basically a PC. However, it's sold at a huge loss. The sales of games make up for this loss. However, if everyone buys the Xbox at a loss, and then doesn't buy any games, but installs Linux on it, and uses it as a PC, MS loses a shitload of money. Without the Xbox, these same people wanting a PC would have to buy one from Dell, or something, which comes with Windows XP and other MS software, so MS has made money on software, without losing any money on hardware.
The only reason MS entered the game console market is to make money. They need the games in order to make money. Without them, they lose, and the Xbox will be as dead as the Nintendo PowerGlove.
Yes, you _can_ buy an Xbox, and run Linux on it with a modchip, but why would you want to? Why would you want to use MS hardware, which is a stipped down, shitty PC, and run Linux on it, when you can get a mini form-factor (XPC) bare-bones system for under $150, add a processor and drive, and be up and running on a better system without having to look at an MS logo everyday? Sure, I understand the "because I can", argument, and yeah, it's cool to make Linux run on something that wasn't mean to explicitly support it, but really, it's not like it's going to become a true platform.
That having been said, I am in no way supporting MS' extension of US laws to foreign companies. That does in fact suck.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
Good point, but really it doesn't matter. You can sue me because you don't like the shirt I'm wearing, or I can sue you because I don't like your pants. It doesn't matter if there are any laws involved, if you have enough money, you can force me to stop wearing that shirt, and maybe even pay you damages for the "trauma" of seeing me wear that shirt. I really wish it didn't work that way, and there was a time when people actually worked their problems out WITHOUT calling in a lawyer, but everybody these days is greedy, and they want to sue and get $millions in damages.
"Da ist ein Technölüst in mein Unterpanten!"
A man has been arrested to taking a sledge hammer to an Xbox after Microsoft said, "modification and disassembly of the XBox hardware is against the EULA"
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Regarding point 3 (that Microsoft would encourage development of systems such as Mandrake for the XBox, etc.), I don't think this would be that case.
At the moment, Microsoft aren't trying to make money (and they're clearly not doing so anyway). Rather they're trying to wrest control of the market from Sony (and, to a lesser extent, Nitendo and other console-makers). Basically they're trying the gain a monopoly in the market (ala PCs).
Once they have this control, _then_ they can begin to make money. They're sitting on enough cash to run as a loss-leader if they want, lose money at the outset, and then increase prices once people are tied in.
The development of alternative systems for the XBox may increase the purchase of the consoles short-term, but long-term it opens up the device to others, destroying the whole idea of monopolizing (i.e. they can't increase the price of games development on the system, of all of the software houses can just roll out a version of the game for Mandrake on the XBox to exactly the same end-users).
I think Microsoft will be no more keen to encourage 3rd party O/S development on the XBox than they are to encourage it in the PC market (and they're in a much better position to control it in the case of the XBox, as they control the hardware directly).
--
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Oh, no. It's just an eyelash.
1) When a customer purchases an XBox (or any game system for that matter) are you intrinsically "signing" an end-user agreement in the purchase that makes modding the device illegal?
Not particularly, no. Of course MS is under no obligation to support you, or your box if it breaks. Also don't necessarilly expect it to work with the Live service. In other words, you're free to break it, just don't dump on MS when it breaks or you can't use it with some new game, or their online service, they are well within their rights to exclude you if they are able.
2) Could a non-profit org setup an effort to have mod chips produced and "distributed" at the cost of production w/o legal repurcussions? (i.e. would not making a profit on XBox's hardware mods protect you from their wrath?)
Ahh, now here's where you get to the quasi legality. It's the production for profit of mod-chips that has dubious legal value. Ever wonder why you can't just walk into a store and buy a cable descrambler? You might be able to avoid them - but you have to show up in court, and pay the legal fees when they sue you.
3) I understand the whole DRM aspect of mod'ing for playing copied games, BUT, what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such?
Microsoft is concerned about a larger picture. Of having the X-Box be an end unit in a network of units. They want to make sure that the network is somewhat secure. By supporting something like Linux on the X-Box, they help to compromise their plans.
Software developers aren't going to suddenly stop paying Microsoft Licencing fees, and start aiming their games at modded boxes, because modded boxes are an extremely small number of actual devices sold.
Why the hell would they save the licencing fees to try to sell to 2% of the market, when they can pay the licencing fees and try to sell to 100% of the market. It's just completely non-sensical.
Look at how many games are successful that require an add-on piece of hardware, that isn't bundled WITH that piece of hardware. It doesn't happen, Game Developers tend not to target an add-on hardware device unless it's seen sales of around 40% of the number of base systems sold.
Microsoft's whole plan with the xbox was to sell the hardware below cost, and then to crank out the software and make the real profit off game sales. If you're buying the hardware and supplying your own software, you are, in effect, costing them money.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Plain vanilla copyright allows you to make modifications to software/hardware you've purchased. For example, you can purchase Windows NT Workstation and hex edit the bits that cripple Workstation so that it acts more like Server. You may not however redistribute it.
Microsoft hates the idea because they want to sell Server, which is just a recompile (with a few other tools) for much much more. They claim that you are bound to the End User License Agreement when you open the shrink-wrap package you forfeit this and many other rights. Of course, they don't get your signature, and most people never have any idea of what this license says, and some would say it's plain illegal to force customers to waive so many rights just to use software, so it's kind of up in the air.
I imagine this same EULA makes mod chips illegal. EULAs have not been sufficiently validated in court (cases seem to go both ways for a number of reasons), so you're rolling the dice by challenging it.
However, IANAL.
Greetz DJB, JS
in response to MS selling more xbox units, that insn't a good thing if they don't sell more games at the same time because the units are sold at a loss
I'm firmly of the opinion that the DRM features are present in the XBox as a practice run.
They can hone their skills on known hardware.
Thus being cracked and modded is a successful operation for them. They even get practice on how to oil the wheels of litigation.
All this with not much reputation to lose, after all it's *only* a games console.
Once they've got it sorted out with their own hardware design they will be in a position to know how to issue "DRM Compiant" certificates for motherboards, for a fee. Then we'll be paying an MS tax on hardware without anyone arguing about pesky OS's. Their patent on DRM OS's may mean that there'll be another license fee to pay should *your* OS want to use the DRM facilities built into *your* motherboard.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Much, much more often, I see endless "IANAL, but...". So, I have my own ask slashdot. What is the damn point of asking legal questions here? This is news for nerds, not news for barristers.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
The GPL is binding because it gives you rights beyond normal copyright law (redistribution, etc). If you don't agree to the GPL you can still use the software, but you only have the rights granted by normal copyright.
Most other EULAs demand that you agree to them so that you have the rights that would normally be granted by copyright. This is in contradiction to the doctrine of first sale, and a few other legal norms. The GPL is not. If ANY EULA is binding it would be the GPL. This issue has really been discussed to death on slashdot already, just search around and you'll understand eventually.
Life is too short to proofread.
Because you can now run Linux on the Xbox, the mod-chip makers actually have a better chance in the legal squabbles.
The mod-chip becomes a "reverse-engineering" product, with verifyable "non-infringing" use.
I.e. since running Linux on an Xbox is perfectly legal, and you need a mod-chip to make it happen, the mod-chip manufacturer gets some legal protection, since it is not only used for "illegal" purposes.
P.S. IANAL, please Fla^H^H^HCorrect me if I'm wrong.
Amazingly enough in the business world, foreign laws are often applied to US businesses. Wow - it's called reciprocity. Amazing.
Lik-Sang are using our OpenSource eCommerce solution called osCommerce (shameless plug, I know).
They were always one of our best refernces. Dammit.
I didn't sign any contract, or anything of its ilk when buying my XBox and neither did anyone else. Therefore, if we want to modifiy it to run our own games (unless we d/l them and burn them and it's illegal) then it's LEGAL! All these game companies suing 3rd party companies for trying to create a better experience for gaming is crap (Blizzard vs BNETd). STFU M$.
Microsoft would probably rather sell games and game-producing licenses. The profit margin on console systems has always been razor thin, esepecially since the XBox is probably pretty expensive to manufacture. Ford on the other hand makes probably 90% (or greater) of their money by selling their hardware.
--- What
Almost none, in a gas engine... You get some in diesels and more in gas turbines. gas engines don't have high enough compression (or temperature) to make much NOx (industry term for nitrous oxides). You would have pre-ignition (fuel blowing up before the piston is all the way up) if you had high enough compression to make much NOx
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
One law rule them all.
Profit.
No body interest you. You are money maker monkey.
Please contiue to buy M$ products. Next year breathing will come EULA.
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
If points 1 and 2 are illegal, then the Mandrake Linux XBox Project is in the same boat since that requires modification to the XBox's components to make it work (and a custom USB connection).
No offense to anyone, but why the hell would anyone want to make the XBox run Linux? Just because you can? It doesn't help, it doesn't make it faster, all I can see that it does do is void your warranty for the sake of being l337.
Heck, even that vengful guy who owns petswarehouse, Robert "Look at me funny and I'll sue you" Novak, has demonstrated all you need is the desire and free time and you can fsck up people and businesses.
Somewhere in my Journal I detailed a minor skirmish I had with someone on Hong Kong (where I belive Lik Sang is) over an eBay item worth $30. They hauled the guy in and I finally got something. I was amazed how ready the police were to act on a complaint by one measely american. By that token, I'm assuming, Hong Kong will do it's best to show foreign business that they can count on their support. After all, Shanghai and several other cities on the SE coast of China would be more than happy to take their business.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
first, shame on you.
second, very few people care about this kinda thing. m$ knows that. there will be a small underground thing that will exist for this stuff, but it'll never hit critical mass as long as people buy products that contain these ridiculous eulas. i mean, how fscked up is that?! only to use and not tinker with!?
along with the copyright and patent systems that need to be reformed, we have to get rid of eulas. they do nothing but tie our hands and are the most ridiculous thing ever!
when bill was getting his house built, the contractors should have made him sign some ridiculous eula stating that he could not sue or call for repairs if anyone (including the contractors themselves) broke in; if something in the house went wrong; or if he wanted something in the house changed (i.e. customized). instead he would have to wait until the contractor (or any contractor for that matter) decided that they *might* wanna fix something.
Oh, and the contractor would be able to come back at any time and hang out there. better yet, kick bill out and take over for an undetermined time. all the while touting expensive upgrades that won't work and take years to complete and are never delivered on time and to spec.
but sadly, we don't live in that world. anyway, i specifically will not buy an xbox because of stupid crap like this. if i buy a machine of any kind, i expect to 100% own it. and i don't want *anyone* telling me what i can and can't do with it. because after all, it's mine! down with the dmca - for real. and quit buying these things until they change this sort of stuff! jeeze..
They are losing money hand over foot selling XBoxes, infact Microsoft are openly concerned that people would buy their (relativly cheap) xbox and then use it as a webserver or make linux clusters with them. They only make money selling over-priced games. Hence hiring the guy from the xbox-linux proj to work on beefing up the DRM and security of the xbox hardware.
Last.fm - join the social music revolution
If we eat a Big Mac too much, we'll transform ourselves in a too fat American. (Yes sir, 31% of the Americans are too fat).
From your perception cause we eat that Big Mac we have to obey American laws...?
Read my lips: It will never happen.
And if it is unavoidable I prefer to be exported to Jupiter or something.
Oh btw, cause you Americans (and in fact everybody else too) is reading this message then you are dealing with me and cause you are dealing with me, you have to obey me.
Signed TAFKAH.
In expectation of the release for a job as ruler over the universe, being a European is satisfying me.
Real Europeans First!
I cant understand all this ranting. Just run linux n a real PC or something else. The Xbox is so far away from open source that putting open source on it is near to result in a matter/antimatter explosion. Give the beast up and buy something else instead. Why dont put some effort on getting more games ut on linux? I understand that some people does mods because of the challange but in this case its just helping MS getting their Palladium/DRM system tested for free.
Ill say it again if you want to run linux buy a real computer instead of crippling it on an Xbox.
As of the ability of making games without paying licenses i would prefer an open gaming console instead. Todays system of paying licenses to sell games for Xbox, nintendo and PS is an artificial buisiness model and should go away.
HTTP/1.1 400
The customer should not be made responsible for a poor business model. It is microsoft's own fault that they aren't making money on the Xbox, and if they don't like that, then they shouldn't sell it at.
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
If you do business in any country, your business in that country is subject to the laws of that country. Been that way for a l-o-n-g time, folks.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
It's just as illegal to mod your car, or lower it too much .. It's illegal to so a lot of that stuff. Cops will only bust you and impound your car if you're a ricer, though.
We still do not have any clue what the lawsuit is about.
For all that is known it could be that they were selling copies of various xbox and other console game in addition to the selling mod chip.
Or the mod-chips could be a have taken code, that is copywrited, and and used that instead of just by passing certain codes.
Until someone can post on what the lawsuit was about this is all just pointless wondering, that does not even know if it is any way related to the xbox mod chips the company sells.
You could probably get away with that.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
I believe the issue is Lik Sang selling the mod chip. I don't believe that microsoft can do a thing to you for moding your XBox. They can go after you for moding your XBox and then doing something illegal with it. This is no different than the decoder chips used in the early days of subscription TV. It was/is illegal to sell the chip. You could/can mod your box for the reception. You couldn't/can't use the illegal mod to recieve the broadcast.
As John W. Campbell, the science fiction editor and writer noted years ago, "It ain't the things that you don't know tha
In Belgium and in most European countries you're allowed to have 2 (safety) copies of any software package, but only for own uses.
:)
You are even allowed to reverse engineer, rewrite and add source code, but only for own uses.
You are allowed to have and use a mod chip for any system, but only for own uses. Take care, selling a mod chip in Belgium is illegal.
The DMCA isn't making much impression to Belgian citizens and politicians. US of A have no jurisdiction over here. Which isn't that bad.
Now we can smoke weed, we have clean hookers in almost every city. And our politicians don't have to cheat elections to receive a leading position.
And last but not least, I'll put my mod chip where I want.
I think MS is right is using the copyright laws to keep people from altering there hardware. YOU, as an individual can MAKE YOUR OWN Mod chip, BUT going out and buying one, even if it is not for profit is wrong, Its like the black box for cable to unscrable all the channels, there is really no legal use for this technology so it should not be permitted to be sold, The same goes with Mod Chips, there is said "grey area" like the linux project, But if one wishes to do the linux project one must fist make there own mod, I don't think telling people how to make there own mod should be illegal since it is just sharing of information, But making it for some one is/should be illegal. Thats my views on the matter, Most likly I am in the manority, since I also think downloading MP3s with P2P programs is illegal
I think the point is that MS doesn't want any distribution of Xbox mod chips. I doubt they would bother you if you bought their Xbox, took it apart and modded whatever you wanted to, as long as you weren't distributing modchips/software to others. It's not really a question of whether you own the hardware,(I would say you do), but whether you can distribute mods to others. The main reason would be profit, I think, so that MS makes money off of games.
What is funny, but not ha-ha funny, were the vehement "MS is evil" people who complained that XBoxes were sold below cost to help MS build marketshare, and this was just another monopoly/evil practice on their part.
And now a bunch of the "MS is evil" crowd have bought XBoxes to use as cheap Linux PCs.
Hmmm...Let me get my topological map, I'm trying to find the moral high ground.
(For the record, I'm a Linux/MS agnostic. I run both. I hate both.)
/* It's amazing the damage someone with a stunted sense of humor and mod points can do to your karma. */
You make it sound like MS has a right to profit. That would be like saying I have the right to happiness. I have the right to pursue happiness, MS has a right to pursue profit, there are no guarantees.
If MS has a bad business model that is their own fucking problem, not the moders!
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
Yet.
Is it a deliberate policy, or is it because Ford is a car company and so far TPTB there haven't really heard of the DMCA, or that they could use it to go after car chippers?
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Hardware has always been sold at a loss. Including the NES, SuperNES and N64, Atari Jaguar, Sega Saturn and both PS1 and 2.
...is a perfect distillation of exactly why America owns Europe today.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
i'd be suprised if it was a copyright issue (has this actually been confirmed?), as, afaik, most xbox modchips don't actually provide a BIOS for the very reason, instead they provide a tool to write a BIOS from the net to your newly purchased modchip. However I presume the pre-chipped xboxes will already have the replacement BIOS on the installed modchip, so perhaps that's the sticking point. If so, lik-sang have been very foolish indeed.
--
community content - covertops.org
--
Anyone work for a UK TV or Newspaper in oxford area who likes a good rave? You support would be very welcome!
Please, someone tell us what the XBOx license is, if any, so we can stop this navel-gazing about what we 'should' and 'should not' be able to do with someone's X-Box.
If there's a license attached to it, and it prohibits X, then you shouldn't be able to do X, and if you want to do X, you shouldn't buy the XBox. Deal with it.
This is like the GPL, I might believe I should be able to do WHATEVER I want with source code (a la BSD licensing), including redistributing and/or selling modified versions without source code, but if the GPL puts restrictions on me that I don't like, then I shouldn't use GPL'ed code.
People have a choice - to use or not use something with a particular license. Just because someone might not like a license does not mean they can supercede it unilaterally with terms THEY deem reasonable.
So please, someone with an XBox enlighten us ?
You buy a car.. you can modify it (granted some states limit what you can do because of emmisions). You buy a computer.. you can buy anything you want (or even make it yourself!) and stick it in to enhance the operation of it. I don't get how digital media is seperated from everything else, with the RIAA making themselves above the consumer on rights to copy or modify the data (Read that as in taking a CD and making a copy for yourself, like you're instructed to with software so you have a backup should something happen to the orignal)... and Microsoft with this stuff. I never got that. I have a *RIGHT* to make myself copies of stuff I buy to have should something happen to the orignal. Companies are making it so it's nearly impossibly to do so, or it's impossible to play the copy should something happen to the orignal. So if I modify *MY* X-Box (microsoft doesn't own the one I baught anymore, *I DO* and if i want to modify it or run it over with a car, *I* have a right to) so I can play my LEGAL copies since I can't any other way... well then I'll damn well do so. This country is turning into too much Big Business. My only question is.. since we can't make true copies anymore (such as with the "protected" CD's), if when my original and now only copy of that disc gets too scratched, if I send it back to the recording company, are they going to give me a new copy since they took away my ability and right to make my own copy for my personal use??
So if you can't do X, all you have left is a "box" - what's the point of that?
btw, I thought we haven't given in to the whole "hardware license" thing just yet, and maybe, just maybe, we can still buy something and do whatever with it, without the company telling us what we can and cannot do with something we supposedly own (and owning is something I like to do after I give away money)
sic transit gloria mundi
PLaystation 2 and gamecube sells another million units this month. Xbox unit sales have been put to a halt because Microsoft are illegalizing the use of the system as an expensive cup holder.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This has probably already been said before or pointed out somewhere but I havent been following this much. M$ is probably suing so they can later make money by allowing software such as operating systems on the Xbox so if you eliminate the mod chip companies you can make everyone who currently owns an Xbox have to either buy a new Xbox with an inflated price because of its new capabilities or buy an overpriced piece of hardware (M$'s version of a MOD chip). Its all about the moola.
it may be an AC, but he/she makes an extremely valid point....
We're like rats, in some experiment! -- George Costanza
The problem is that Microsoft loses money on the hardware, and they make it back on the software. So if you allow users to circumvent the price they pay for the software, Microsoft loses in the end.
Dr. Weasolito, the self-proclaimed world's only lawyer able to speak with cockroaches has sued McDonald's for Genocide. "The massacre has been going on since 2003 when the Supreme Court decided that cockroaches could be included in 'Cow-free-Hamburgers'. It has to stop now." says the 'roachy lawyer who is also the CEO of Vermin Inc. which will distribute the money among the critters if he wins against the evil Empire.
When the Xbox came out, I did a paer on it for my marketing class and I concluded that microsoft was selling it for almost a $100 hit.
However proices of computer components have been dropping consistently and I am not convinced that MS still loses money on Xbox hardware.
Can anyone comment on this?
IOException - Can't Speak
Did it occur to you that maybe M$ used Chinese law in Hong Kong ? Despite the rantings of the many US law does not apply outside the US but local law applies everywhere. Most international companies use local law teams to use local law to get the same effect. If they tried to use US law in China they would get laughed at, as they would in most of Europe.
If a company has assets in the US then they can be taken to court in the US but if they do not then there is nothing a US court can do, they do not even have an address to write to. M$ frequently tries to give the impression that they are able to apply there US values elsewhere but it does not work. Look at some of the European copyright cases, they cannot get their licenses to hold up in Europe. They prosecute under other laws, like fruad etc. and claim it as a victory against the sea borne bandits but it is just an ordinary case under ordinary European law.
I do not know any more about this case than I have read but I have not read anything that suggests that anything strange happened. China is having a crack down on things like this and would have been happy to use their own legal system to support M$.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
I think your perception is skewed. Microsoft would not be interested in selling more units only, in fact I thought it was fairly well proven they lose money on the units. They are interested in making the enduser purchase games, thus they will do everything in their power to stop mod-chips.
The reason Microsoft doesn't like people to mod thier console is simple. Getting an XBox can be like getting a pretty good computer ... only a lot cheaper. Microsoft loses money on every XBox they sell, but the more people there are that own them, the more people there are to buy games. The software is what keeps the XBox going. Because XBox Linux users don't buy games, Microsoft loses money on EVERY console they (linux users) buy. If I were Gates, I wouldn't want anybody modding my XBox (unless of course the mod allowed you to easily switch between Linux and game functionality in a cinch). Understandable.
Mark
The principle of First Sale, which generally applies to just about any product you buy, would tend to restrict or eliminate Microsoft's ability to tell you what you can do with your XBox once you buy it. The way the principle works is, if you buy something, you are the owner of it, and can do with it what you want. You can re-sell it. You can rent it out (usually...) You can even modify it. Microsoft may be able to use its bully tactics to get what it wants, but I think the tactics would not stand up in court.
It isn't the Producer has the power and the Consumer doesn't.
The big guy has the power, the small guy doesn't.
I produce content, you produce content, companies produce content. That is what I think people have to realize, content providers are everyone, not just the large entertainment companys.
Most consumer protection laws are really just trying to protect the small guy, typically an individual.
The overwhelming power of some large companies and their monopoly or near monopoly on certain services is a problem, and that is why we regulate and legislate it.
I think that is the point of regulating, fo rhte government to step in when the relative size is so different one party is coerced into a contract.
My answer is just don't buy it if it isn't worth it. This is why I only buy about 1 CD and 2 or 3 movies a year now.
I haven't bought an XBox and I'm not going to mod one if I get one because it's just too much of a pain. But here's the thing I can think of.
If the XBox is basically a computer, it can run an MP3 player. It has Ethernet. I've got an SMB share with all the music I own on it. I'd like to have that playable in the family room as well as at my desk. It already has video-out, display to a TV. No need of monitor.
Compare this to one of those (admittedly sweet) Shuttle boxes. $150 plus the price of a processor, plus the price of a 5.6" LCD panel, some kind of IR/remote, HD, Memory... Cost of time to mod the case to include the display panel or whatever...
IF I could buy an XBox, plug it in and drop a 'networked MP3 player' CD in the drive and be playing my music collection in a few minutes, that's a BIG advantage.
Of course, I can't.
... "I read part of it all the way through." -- Movie Mogul Sam Goldwyn (and some slashdot readers)
I have a back-order with them, meaning that I've already paid and I'm waiting on the stuff! Sure it wasn't a lot, just a replacement Gameboy Advance shell, but none the less, I ordered from them quite often and I'm really upset to see them gone :(
"Microsoft would support... licensed an opensource..."
Now there's two words I thought I'd never see connected in the same sentence!
The bottom line is that the known facts are thus: the PS1 was profitable at its $299 US introductory price; there was never a loss on sales of the N64; it is arguable over whether the PS2 was ever sold at a significant loss; the Sega Saturn was the first actively marketed console to be sold at a loss, the Sega Dreamcast followed suit.
I find it doubtful that NES and SuperNES were ever sold at a loss. I'm willing to change my mind if you can find a good basis for the claim that they were.
The Saturn was the first "sold at a loss." Saturn + Dreamcast at loss = Sega almost bankrupt.
The Gamecube was admitted to be sold at a loss (admitted by Nintendo at launch) but it was small. Estimates were that it was sold at a $5-$15 loss, compared to the $200 or so on the Xbox. And that was only at launch, they got costs down real quick and were profitable before and after the price cut.
The "all consoles" are sold at a loss is a strange rumor. They have always been sold "at cost," retailers make ZERO markup on the consoles, or at least that was the case in the 80s. We used to get our games through a wholesaler through a family friend in retail (wholesale to mom-and-pop stores, not Toys R Us level stores), we'd save about $8 a game, but couldn't get ANY savings on consoles. I think we saved sales tax, but I don't remember if we had to pay it through their store.
Alex
But PC software is always pirated. What they have to build is a DRM PC. And this is what they are making. The X-Box is a practice run.
Their goal is a DRM PC. Cheap hardware, but impossible to run pirate software.
The payoffs from a DRM PC are much higher than any game console. And I believe this is what MS is aiming at. Modding the X-Box just pushes this process along faster than it would go otherwise.
My blog
It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)... "
The flaw in this piece of logic is that Microsoft doesn't make money on the X-Box unit itself. It makes money from licensing the SDK and runtime libraries to developers. So Microsoft has a keen interest in keeping mod chips out of XBoxen. If an alternate platform (ie, Linux) were available for creating XBox games, Microsoft would be unable to generate royalties on the games and would simply lose money on every X-Box sold.
Dark Tower BBS - Telnet, HTML
bance.net
First of all, Microsoft's claim is bullshit. They can't tell me what to do with hardware I buy. That is absolutely ridiculous.
Secondly, Lik-Sang was a wonderful site. I used them on several occasions to order products that are produced in China. There service was great, and I would usually receive the product sooner than I would from domestic dealers.
This has seriously just now become a personal issue to me. Microsoft is going to eventually get there's if they continue to piss off their consumers. They may have monopoly power right now, but economics shows that you can only abuse the consumer for so long before your business falls apart.
Arguing about the "licensing arangements" is a moot point.
Now that Linux (with a hardware hack) is on the (e)X-Box, has the money been paid out to the developers of that project? Remember that overall $100,000 promised? It was broken into parts. Half of it was supposed to be paid out for hardware hack of Linux on X box.
Have they paid or defaulted?
Are you really going to go out and buy a new x-box just to put mandrake on it, or are you going to go to the pawn shop and pick one up cheap?
Microsoft aren't going to make any more money from people modding them to put linux on it, so there's no reason for them to encourage it.
OTOH, they've already sold the box, they've made their profit (hahaha, should really say loss), so why should they care?
Mixed feelings on this one.
Warning: May contain nuts
sucks. And so do their customers.
/. hypocrites seem to enjoy buying garbage to support evil causes.
Yes, that means you, you xbox-playing fuckface babykiller. Why don't you go buy some human skin lampshades circa WW2 while you're at it. You
"This leads me to 2 questions"
"1)...2)...and 3)"??
Interesting...
--Note to self. Add witty sig here, someday...
I have an X-Box. I've had it since it came out. I own a few games. I installed one of the original beta Enigmah modchips. I don't play pirated games. I use the emulators, media players, other PC-ports (such as DoomX/Quake), and all the other cool utilities that people have been developing since they cracked it. Yes, people are using the copyrighted SDK, YES, you need to own the ROM's that you emulate. But to be honest, I do this as a hobby. I helped friends/family install chips. None of them are into heavy piracy, but we are all into playing Super Mario Bros. on the NES emulator. Is that so wrong? Legally, perhaps, but don't think for a SECOND that I have any moral objection to it. Let's not forget about how Sony took down playstationmods.com and their Neo chip (v4 for PS2), as well as the original Messiah modchip for PS2. Also realize that DirecTV is currently sending threatening letters and even suing people that bought "illegal smartcard programmers" with nothing more than a receipt from a busted dealer. These companies are setting precedent that you only need the tool to pirate. There is no more burden of proof to determine if the device was actually used and how. Watch out for DirecTV, Microsoft, Sony, and the rest. While we can rant about how the chip is legal as long as you use it as such, DirecTV is still suing people with smartcard readers because they had the POSSIBILITY of reprogramming a satellite access card.
Didn't Microsoft become the monopoly it is today because of the reverse engineering of the IBM BIOS?
The consumer should not be punished, i.e. limited in action and thought, because Microsoft took a risk and it is now losing money. They took the risk, not us.
This is an example of a company that is failing at something trying to use the might of the legal system to protect themselves. Why is it that so many people are upset over the perception that Microsoft's competitors are using the law to protect themselves(with the assumption that they cannot compete) yet many of those same people would support Microsoft doing the same thing(with the assumption that they cannot compete)?
Hypocrasy at its best.
Mike
With the mindless copyright laws aside, I would like to ponder why it is that people want to put another software on a specific peripheral?
Dangit, its a game console. I did not recall people trying to cram something other than a cartirdge into the Atari 2600.
I mean, for a $100 more you can buy an eMachines that has a CDRW and other good stuff builtin to it and you don't have to worry about "hacking" anything.
Of course if the trill is to hack, then shut my mouth!
Well I don't own an X-Box and don't plan to do it. Anyway, I understand why people want Linux on XBox. The problem has tow sides:
1. It's a challenge. And Linux community is a world of challengers. The challenge may be making some noses to all-mighty M$. But the mainstream is probably following the old true challenge of getting one more piece of hardware and putting it to test. The versality and universality of Linux was made of these "Will Linux run on Sparc, PPC, Palmtop, S/390...? Even Sony's PlayStation couldn't run from this mood. And let's remember that some people referred to XBox + Linux in the way - "Sony PS-2 was first now it's time for XBox". And they probably are not hunting games, like some lamers speak here. Their objective is more the traditional "hack the thing".
2. XBox goes much cheaper than the traditional computer. Some have already noted this... And if you wanna use it as a cheap server, why not?
So these are probably tow vectors that move the crowd. What will happen if M$ cuts the trend. Well it will just loose customers, nothing else. Because if they are not for games then XBox will be nothing for them. And they may loose a large piece of the market. I don't think that Linux hackers can repeat Lego Mindstorms phenomena but there are parallels that force me to remind this story. A few years ago Lego launched is small and cute robot, planning to sell some 10000 units. However, the thing was not so popular among chidren as among hackers (I even have one). At first they didn't like this and tried to charge with all this copyright boolaboo. However when they saw sales jumping over 100000 (10x the expectations), they even started to make publicity to some of these guys.
m$ knows it can't win a lawsuit, but they have cash to burn. most of these companies are small, low cap startups. m$ is simply "sending a message" to people. they can crush you even if you win. think netscrape. they got money to burn baby.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
...Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices (and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)...
Oh, that's rich!! Ha! I'm rolling on the floor laughing! Microsoft supporting an open source project... stop, you're killing me!!
Can someone please give me an example of when Microsoft has ever supported any open source project? OK, now I'm not usually a Microsoft basher (hey, I use Windows on my main home machine, simply because it is easy to use and has great game support), but I can recognize that they haven't exactly been embracing the open source concept on the PC, and since the XBox is essentially just a speciallized PC, why would they treat it any differently?
While I support M$'s right to modify the engineering/design of the Xbox to thwart hacking, I don't think they have the right to dictate what I can't do with a device I purchased. As long as I am not "replicating" knock-off Xboxen, I can take the thing apart and use it as Cake toppings if I want to. M$ has enough money to hassle these guys, who were on the FRINGE of legality anyway. I think a mod chip should be legal, we already have copyright laws that outlaw pirating software.
Oh yeah, in the interest of full disclosure, I love my Xbox...
Love the sin, hate the sinner, ER/ wait a minute...
Are you sure of that? The US runs a huge trade deficit each year that is typically paid for by Europeans and Japanese buying US stocks and bonds. I haven't checked the figures, but I would not be at all suprised to find that the percentage of US corps owned by the Europeans is larger than the percent of Euro corps owned by the US. It is probably even larger if you consider direct investment by Europeans in the US (e.g. the BMW factory in S. Carolina) versus US direct investment in Europe.
Same likely holds for the US versus Japan. The US got itself into quite a tizzy a few years ago after Sony bought one of the big entertainment conglamerates and some other Japanese corp bought Rockefeller Center in NYC.
That trade deficit does a lot to keep the worst excesses of the US in check. If we get too nasty, we would be unable to pay for all of the foreign goods we import. Of course it works both ways. Without the US trade deficit, European unemployment would be horrific instead of merely intolerable.
FreeSpeech.org
Let's be realistic. How many XBox consoles have been sold in order to load linux on them? Probably less than 100. This is not about the financial loss on the consoles, it is about software piracy available by the use of mod chips.
Am I the only one who thinks that the parallel between this and the beginning of IBM clones is very striking? I mean, if you look at it, Microsoft owes it's fortunes to the cloners, those who figured out how the system worked, etc. and IBM tried to supress that (not that Microsoft minded). Now, 20 years later, Microsoft has something that people are messing with, and sure enough, they're not liking it. What will this lead to?
When your life is no longer your own...
Can you imagine purchasing a car and not being allowed to install a turbo, or better exhaust...or modifying it to run on fryer oil?
Check out full explanation here
I believe the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act allows for the purchase of accessories like mod chips:
" Tie-In Sales Provisions:
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.
While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty."
It is my understanding of this act that no accessories manufacturer is required to get permission from the original manufacturer before producing the add-in parts.
Manguson-Moss also allows for "unintended use"...that means you can buy a hammer and use it as a paper weight if you like (as long as using it as a paper weight does not result in the destruction of the hammer). So Microsoft can not prohibit you from running other software on your Xbox.
How did Microsoft pull this off? MS must have better attorneys.
-ted
Mod Chips are just illegal where they are illegal. So it depends on where you live. Grey can turn to white when you move to another country. http://www.xpde.com
.
The main and driving reason behind shutting down sources for modded xboxen is to limit cheating on xbox-live.
Cheats and hacks ruin on-line gaming for the players. If modded boxes become widespread, so will cheats and they will be faced with loosing millions of dollars from potential subscribers.
Is it possible to make an XBox mod chip that would let you run Linux but not run pirated games?
It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices
Since when do mega corporations support hackers and modders? They don't care whether those guys buy an XBox or not, well I think MS would rather like you NOT to buy one if you plan to mod it. Besides, modders are not really that big of a market segment and if you make it really hard for them their number will even decrease further.
(and potentially more software if they licensed an opensource validation library)...
Pardon? WHO should sign a certificate for WHAT? MS for OPEN SOURCE? Even to write it feels strange and wrong. They will NEVER support modders and hackers nor will they ever sign anything for open source. They want just plain ordinary Joe Users, they don't want you! Face it, your opinion/money doesn't matter to them. Start forgetting your optimistic i-am-the-customer-i-am-the-king attitude, it may work at the grocery store but not with large corporations like these!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Don't know if anyone's said this explicitly, but the modding of the Xbox [and the creation of/sale of mod chips] is not necessarily ILLEGAL under the DMCA. The DMCA provides legislation for tampering/circumventing copy-protection measures; however, it DOES also allow some "dual-use" technologies to be circumvented legally. The Xbox's hardwired security features that the mod bypasses _ARE NOT_ strictly engineered to prevent playing copied/unendorsed software on the machine; that is, they serve a second purpose:
To prevent owners from playing LEGALLY PURCHASED import games. Why? They want you to buy a second box for that. Modding the Xbox for the purpose of playing said legal imports [against which no law applies--see also the australian ruling on Sony's lawsuit against a mod chip maker/seller] is a perfectly legitimate practice and does not violate the DMCA. Region-encoding for games is not a legally protected practice; rather, it's simply a business maneuver to net more sales.
The chief thing in question with dual-use technologies is intent: the seller's intent, the maker's intent, etc. If the maker of the mod chips designed them simply for enabling users to play import games, and the retailer sold them for this purpose, it's legal under the DMCA. This is where it gets muddy. Obviously both such parties would also know that the mod chips allowed _illegal_ activity--playing copied games, etc.
This is why MS is after them. My take on it: Lik-Sang should stop selling the damn mod chips and come back online, so I have a place to buy good import games for other systems.
BTW: Someone was wondering about implied "eula-like" terms in purchasing the hardware. The answer to this is that none such terms exist currently, but to play Xbox Live, you need to agree to a EULA/ToS that forbids ANY and EVERY activity except playing legally purchased US games on an unmodded system. THIS INCLUDES reverse engineering.
With offhighway vehicles (often called offroad vehicles by non politically correct outsiders-99% of us never leave the designated trails and obey the tread lightly "commandments") there are a couple modifications that are popular on older leaf sprung vehicles; the spring over conversion and shackle reversal.
The spring over coversion refers to the process of simply mounting your axle on the other side of the leaf springs. In many vehicles the axle is under the leaf spring. If all you do is weld some new spring perches on the axles 180degrees from where the originals came you can now have the springs run over your axles. This simple mod will give 4-6" of lift to your vehicle without much effort (buy brake line extensions and usually something to correct your steering geometry) which allows you to mount much larger tires which in turn makes your vehicle much more capable offhighway. Here is a picture
Another popular mod is the shackle reversal to improve ride quality. A vehicle like the Suzuki Samurai came with very flat leafs and shackles on the front of the vehicle. The springs are mounted to the frame at the rear and the shackles act as a hinge up front for when the sping archs and changes its effective length.
If you replace your flat leaf springs with arched ones for lift you screw your ride up. If you hit a bump with a flat leaf it'll compress and shorten which pulls the shackle backwards. This works well to smooth out bumps in the road and to allow you to crawl up to an big rock and climb over it. With arched springs when you hit a bump because the spring is mounted at the rear it gets longer and moves your axle forward! This makes the ride pretty bouncy because every bump your axle moves forward instead of giving way to it. It also makes it difficult to slowly climb over rocks because as your suspension flexs it tries to push your vehicle backwards
But guess what? Those two simple modifications which greatly improve the vehicle you own are illegal in many states, provinces, and countries! Changing the way your suspension works, even for the better, is illegal. You can however put leaf springs in with bigger arches as your suspension works the same. Its just a more expensive method (and without the SR isn't always as effective). You've probably seen Jeeps, early Ford Broncos, and old Toyota Land Cruisers driving around in the summer with their doors off. That is often illegal unless that paticular vehicle came from the factory without doors! Doors were options on those vehicles, strange as it sounds it is true. But if in 1962 the person who bought the vehicle ordered it with doors you must have those doors on it! If they didn't get it with doors or the dealship installed them you have the option!!
I'm sure somebody in the hotrod scene could give a dozen more examples of what you can and can't do to your vehicle with aftermarket parts
Painting your car is generally legal (don't paint any numbers on it though or it becomes an illegal race car!), and so is painting your game console. If you want to do anything you want to your console don't point to cars as something you can do anything you want to, you simply can't due to the laws against it, even if what you're doing improves the vehicle :(
"..what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such? It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts"
Microsoft support Linux? That was a joke right..?
The alternative is no courts, just executive authority to arrest/imprision/confiscate.
Here, in the free-for-real world, outside of the US, we let whoever loses the case pay for all the legal costs, for the other side too.
This does not mean that the good guy always wins, but it does mean that the poor guy can always fight, because money is not (immideately) an issue. You can not win by simply let your opponent exhaust all his means. You must win by actually have a case.
We also do not turn our legal system into a circus whatwith all the show for the jury, piefights and slander. We do not usually have all these fancy trickeries and technicalities that really are laughable - and usually only serve the purpose of costing money for the poor guy.
It works pretty well for us. Maybe something to consider, a semi-fair system? Nah. Won't happen somewhere where the guys with money makes the laws. Too bad.
So, following on that idea, when M$ releases the X-box-2 (or whatever clever name their ad guys come up with) comes out, they'll let me trade in for the new model, right? Or if I accidentally, say, bash it with a sledgehammer, would they sue me? It's "their hardware", or so they imply by not letting us mod it.
I dunno, I think they are crossing a lot of lines here that they shouldn't. I feel that once I buy something outright, I should be able to do whatever the heck I want with it. Tell bill gates that he can't remodel his house, or replace parts in his car and see how he feels.
today is spelling optional day.
MicroSoft's lead sales rep was recently on TechTV in an interview. On the record, currently XBox is losing over $150 per XBox sold, and he claimed they need for every XBox sold, the buyer must purchase *10* (TEN) games for it to become profitable for MicroSoft. 10 is an entirely OBSCENE amount of games for ANY console. The only one I can think of that had the MAJORITY of owners having bought more than 10 games is the ORIGINAL Nes. There is no real way MicroSoft will ever make the Xbox profitable unless they somehow buy out both Sega AND Nintendo (They tried already, Nintendo refused.) and released all the 5 Star games on their system.
The problem with these mod chips is that unauthorized and licensed software can be made without any profit going to MicroSoft, Nintendo, and Sony. They DEPEND on those sales. Releasing free software like the Linux distro will hurt the XBox as it needs to be SOLD and LICENSED to be legally viable on the XBox. I think everyone remebers the big Tetris fiasco on the original NES when it was released without Licensing from Nintendo first.. They owed the big N a ton of money and sales were halted. Nintendo needed that money to make profit margins. This is no different.
Search 2010 Gen Con events
I bought this house and you know I'm boss
Ain't no h'aint gonna run me off
"I feel sorry for the people who wants to do legit stuff with their Xbox but last time people were given those liberties they abused it and raped those that gave them these rights.
It's normal the balance goes the other way now."
They didn't give me any rights, I have rights regardless. They are being taken away saying that my rights are given to me.
This was the whole reason why the constitution was so ground breaking. It was formed by people who said ok, man was born with natural rights (or god given). That those rights do not come from a king, queen, president or someone someone with a lot of wealth. We all have them, and its only a balance on when your right tramples on someone elses life. Such as muder, rape, stealing.
Oh, and just so you know, copying software is NOT stealing, is is copyright infrigment, Copyright/trademark/etc is not a real form of a property, and is't existance has to be argued, just happens that its proffitable for it to exist, so more people argue for further restrictions on such things.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
One quick point -
I believe that Lik-Sang did sell pre-modded Xboxes (as they did sell premodded everything else (PS2, PSX, pimped out Gamecubes, you name it)) with DivX players, Mame with a full compliment of games, and basically an entire non-MS setup (not Linux either - just a browser to run things off the HDD written by OpenXbox or whoever) all preinstalled. I know everyone is defending the consumers rights to mod the hell out of everything they own and I agree with that completely, but I think it might be a little fuzzier if a business premods and sells. Honestly, I'm not sure.
For the record, I ordered a PS2 modchip from Lik-Sang about 4 or 5 weeks ago. They sent me an empty box. Now they have a hoard of money for which they haven't sent products (as the mini-interviews in the article state) and won't respond to any emails. I say fuck 'em if they keep all the money they stole from people before they went under.
I suspect a big reason why MS is so rabid about protecting thier hardware platform is that they are likely not making much (if anything) on the Hardware and will take a loss if need be to sell software, which is afterall where the real money is. People able to buy the harware, mod it and run Linux (etc.) on it, could then be seen as costing them money, particularly if they're selling the hardware at a loss with the expectation of recouping that loss in software sales. I think it is rather poetic from the standpoint of being a Linux user, that MS would sell me the means of building a cheap Linux server farm below cost. :)
Some people almost seem *surprised* over this, but come on, it's Microsoft! The monopoly/spawn of Satan we love to hate. Remember the huge crackdown over people pirating Windows? As if they were losing money over it! Various companies have been happily selling mods for every other console on the market since about 1763... or quite a while anyway, and they're doing just fine. This is just classic MS, trying to control the tides. Also it's a reiteration of the whole DMCA deal, with the assumption being that if there is an illegal application for something, then it must be destroyed. We can mod our computers, lawn chairs, micro RC cars, but not our XBox(es)!
Does anyone know of any console owners who have bought at least 10 games for any console other than the original NES and possibly the PSX?
It seems to me that most of the participants in this discussion are ignoring the elephant in the room. Does a software EULA have any import? It's my understanding that no EULA has ever been held up in court. They're just a scare tactic, as
this page seems to indicate. So I can mod my XBox out the wazoo and M$oft can do nothing about it.
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens." - Schiller
It shouldn't be a special case.
Like any other product it should be clear and explicit about what you are agreeing to.
Consumer protection laws should apply to licenced products as well as physical products.
If Microsoft allowed an open bootloader of any kind on the Xbox, then their control, and hence their revenue stream, would disappear. The only way I can see that scenario working for them is if they charged a huge amount for the open bootloader - enough to make up for their lost revenue stream for the unit in which that bootloader would be used.
But if they charged that much for the bootloader, then the combined cost of the Xbox and bootloader would no longer be quite so competitive against an ordinary PC, so who would buy the boot loader? At that point, you've just got a very weird PC. What would be the purpose, except for the usual "Geek Mt. Everest" syndrome?
If someone made a mod chip that specifically excluded the ability to boot copied game disks, but allowed booting unsigned disks or out-of-region disks, it would be much harder for Microsoft to argue the illegality of it. I have no idea if such a thing is possible or not, but so long as the mod chips allow booting copied games, then the DMCA figures prominently.
1) DMCA 2) gov.us thinks their laws applie to *
Just don't buy an Xbox if you don't like Microsoft.
There. I feel better now.
Edith Keeler Must Die
Does anyone around here remember when Lik Sang used to be Bung Enterprises? Nintendo shut them down. About a month or two later, you were able to buy their new 'LikSang' branded products.
They'll be back.
Remember that Sony sells the Linux kit for the PS2, and it's not exactly cheap. That does not make Sony any more reasonable in this regard as they have always been pretty agressive at trying to get mod chip manufacturers shut down.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
The award is for making a linux that works on a un-modded X-Box, not a chipped.
EULA's no longer require testing in court like they once did. DMCA gives them legal weight. Unless you believe that DMCA provisions can be ruled unconstitutional by appelate courts, we're stuck until the law is changed.
C//
HP lost a lawsuit once because it changed the design of its pens in deskjet printers, rendering them incompatible with a company that made good business on refilling ink cartridges.
From HP's side it seemed kinda stupid. WHy couldn't they change their pen design anytime they wanted? It was their printer. They did the initial work to create the stupid cartridges. But a judge ruled that the company couldn't change the pens unless it was a "significant technological improvement".
Perhaps Microsquash is concerned that if they allow this company to get a foothold they will sue Micro$oft should the Xbox ever change motherboards, or upgrade some such and such, rendering the chip ineffective.
Dunno...
I was talking about the ability/inability of the Xbox to play burned CDs. I should have been more clearer, sorry. Microsoft gave their users the right to play only legitimate CDs and DVDs on their machine. Why ? Because the last company (Sega) that let their users use burned media where literally raped my their own users. ISOs were traded on the internet, shop sold burned media at 5$ each instead of the original software. Nobody's interested in that kind of business. I'm not talking about constitutionnal rights here. I'm all ok about human rights. Stealing is still a crime and coyright infrigments is still another crime. No problem there either. I'm just saying you have to punish a few to stop the mass of lardass that want to throw shit in the fan just because they don't want to pay for what they want.
You want something ? Make it yourself or pay someone for it. That's the way it's supposed to be. Chair, food, whatever you want you have to pay. Pizza's don't grow in trees you know. Make something less material that hits more the mind and the imagination. If it deals more with ideas and your brain and everybody want your stuff for free. Song, software, movies, books they have the same thing in common : they have a part that does not exist in the real world. Songs express emotions (some good some bad, let's not judge quality here), movies and books tell stories (some are goods). Software tells a computer in which order to add 0s and 1s to give us interactive pictures and song (some have bugs in them). But somehow it must look really stupid to pay for an idea because everybody's trying to warez stuff and trade music and videos instead of paying the people who made it. You have to work like crazy to protect your ideas.
Then everybody use some lame excuse that they don't do illegal stuff they only listen to their own music and videos they ripped. Some really do and it's for them that I felt sorry. They had the right to do whatever they wanted but other abused it.
-Linux is SO fast it does an infinite loop in 5 seconds.
From Microsoft's perspective, one problem with the possibility of hacked console systems is that the machines can no longer be considered "trusted" on the network. Microsoft intends to bring broadband to the masses via the Xbox, both for games and for more serious applications. The target demographic is not nearly as computer-savvy as most of the readers on this board, and any perceived lack of security or cheating will have a negative impact on the growth of that business.
For example, consider the problems Blizzard et al have had with cheaters in their online games. Those of us who understand the "rules of the game" might be annoyed at the fact that some punk can dupe powerful items in Diablo II, but we won't stop playing because of it. On the other hand, if MS releases an online environment (not necessarily a game) that can make Grandma's information vulnerable to the bad guys with modded systems, it's a very different story.
Yes, I understand about security, SSL, existing PC hacks, blah blah blah. My point is that the home electronics consumer is a very different beast from the typical PC gamer. Microsoft may be attempting the impossible here (security through obscurity), but I think I understand where they're coming from. They'll just have to lower their expectations.
Bandannarama
OpenXBox the name implies thread to Microsoft.
Remember when they agreed to make DOS for IBM PC, knowing the machine had a pretty much off the shelf hardware... and kept a clause in to ensure that they could sell DOS to other hw mfgs?
Microsoft knows this game well, they don't intend for 3rd-party XBox systems to be developed! Despite the software sales... fools.
You could make it a huge event if you supply tables, sofas, TVs, and a copy of Halo per Xbox.
Give us at least a day before you steamroll everything, I love 24-hours of non-stop Halo LAN fun.
100 Xboxes means 400 people, split up into 16 player clusters. 25 simultaneous games of Rockets-only, Hang 'em High, Slayer 50 kills! FROGBLAST THE VENTCORE!
n/a
The solution is simple.
Buy an XBox and destroy it. Create a web page with pictures, both of your destroyed XBox and your well-cared-for other system. Encourage others to do the same and send you pictures of their destroyed XBoxes. Make a web ring of "XBox Destruction League" and overhype how Microsoft critics are buying XBoxes and destroying them so that Microsoft loses money. Hold contests to see who can do the most creative destruction! What happens when you fill an XBox with water, and then drop a chunk of mineral oil-covered sodium into the box, and then seal it back up? (Kids, don't try this one at home!)
Remember, every $200 you spend is $200 Microsoft loses! How many chances are you going to make such an obvious statement against Microsoft? Eventually, media outlets will begin to note that, while Microsoft claims to have sold so many millions of XBoxes, it is unknown how many of those boxes were destroyed by anti-Microsoft protesters.
Oh, and be sure to fill out the registration card and note on it that you've destroyed the XBox. (A few more cents out of Microsoft's pocket...) Perhaps you could include a picture...
It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices
Microsoft is LOSING money on XBOX sales. They'll only start making profits once they get a firm grip on games sales. This is why they 'must' crack down on anything regarding hacked games and such.
Just because they have reason to not want me to do something, shouldn't mean they have legal recourse. I have reason to not want my company to give a promotion to someone who is more qualified than me, because it means less money for me. And I can sue, but that doesn't make it right.
Also, some of the modchips don't include MS's BIOS code. The one designed based on the work bunni did, simply sniffs the password of the bus. Last I heard, you can't copyright a password. (Well, I guess if it were really long and not numeric, but...)
"Da ist ein Technölüst in mein Unterpanten!"
The other usage for mod chips, which very few people in this thread appear to a) have mentioned or b) care about, is for playing imported games. In general this is not a big thing in the US (which is why it gets ignored) but in other places such as Europe it is a much larger issue - the US tends to get games months or even years sooner than EU countries. For example, Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball ships on 3rd December in the US, but does not come out until February 2003 in the UK. And two months is pretty quick - Final Fantasy 10 took around 9 months.
>You can sue me because you don't like the shirt I'm wearing,
;)
As a matter of fact, I'm not especially fond of that tacky shirt of yours. You can expect to hear from my lawyers shortly. And by the way, I'm not wearing pants, so don't even think about a countersuit. I'll be suing the pants off of you instead.
-Cybrex
Boundless Expansion, Self-Transformation, Dynamic Optimism, Intelligent Technology, Spontaneous Order- BEST DO IT SO!
The XBOX really isn't a good platform for a cheap server. The only thing in it any good is the Video card (Geforce 4 alike) and it's not useful for a server. I can put together a server that will blow away the xbox for $250, and hey, then you have a upgrade path. These people aren't going to use them for servers, get real.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
You suggest in your posting that MS would want to support any projects that get people buying the XBOX. This is completely contrary to MS's continual position of stopping anyone who takes any amount of control from MS regarding their product.
Additionally, MS isn't making a profit off the BOX, they are making a profit from licensing, which means they are losing money if you buy the box and not their MS licensed games. This goes back to the same old argument. MS makes money by people stealing their OS because then corp's buy the MS Office software and licenses it for thousands of employees because that's what everyone has at home and every is familiar with it. MS is willing to somewhat tolerate hacked copies of Windows because it gives them a market share that leads to purchase of their other programs.
When someone buys an XBOX but hacks it so it will be used for running non MS software, MS loses out.
From what I read in the past, Microsoft is selling the x-box under the actual recommended retail price (in fact they may be doing it at a lost). So, they are not make any money on the hardware itself. The real profit comes from the sale of games. So, whether you are using the xbox mods to pirate games or to setup linux boxes, you are not buying the games. Thus, Microsoft will do everything to prevent the mods from proliferating
You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
Seems to me the viable solution seems to be avoid Microsoft (R) altogether. When possible: don't deal with them, don't use there software, don't buy their hardware, stay away from them. . . don't support their monopoly, don't double/tripple pay for their technical support, don't lock yourself into only their solutions, stay on the road allowing you to act in a way that is best for YOU and/or YOUR company.
When you say you can't argue the "hammer analogy " with the fact it its flawed. It is actually the copyright laws that are flawed.
Copyrights and other IP laws was used to give ideas and so forth a substance so to speek. However it lacks any sort of balance.
For example, corporations have benefits and costs. Some of the benefits include (but not limited too):
Owners are protected, and can lose only what they put in. But Tax twice, yes, I know stock options negate this to some extent.
See, what happens, is that the corporation is considered an individual, and actually has some rights so to speak that come with it. Such as ownership. And is considered an individual entity.
The same thing needs to be done with "IP". It needs to be treated as a physical object in good and bad ways.
Good way: You can make money off it and people can not copy it.
Bad way: it is now theirs, and they can do what ever they like with it. Also, the makers are subject laws that are used in all manufactured laws. If it doesn't work as advertised, breaks and takes things down with it, costs lives, etc.
Copyright exists the way it does today because it is being written by those who will profit from it directly in terms of money. Such as the RIAA and the MPAA.
And there is plenty of "IP" in a hammer. They are smart enough to know that selling hammers at a loss and expect to make money on overpriced nails wont work. Laws should not be supportive of this, and we shouldn't tolerate any public figure that supports those types of laws(or agendas).
And thank you for adding me to the friend list. I honor this and do likewise.
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive
1: I want an Xbox, because I want to play Halo. But... 2: The Xbox is made by Microsoft, a thoroughly unpleasant company which behaves in pretty despicable and frankly illegal ways, and also produces some shitty, bug-ridden bloatware. Solution: Buy Xbox, which as has been established is currently sold at a loss, thus causing even more harm to M$ than buying a second-hand Xbox. Buy Halo second-hand, either at Game or via Ebay. Both ways, Microsoft loses money, and I get to play Halo. Problem solved!
You must think in Russian.
They lose $150 per console sold. They need at least 10 games per owner sold to break even. The MS Sales Exec stated this on Tech TV over a week ago, to the camera when they were interviewing them about their losses on XBox. There is no more speculation, just cold hard facts. Believe it or not, that's the way it is.
BUT, what about legit gray-hacks like the Mandrake Linux XBox project and such? It would seem to me that in the long haul, Microsoft would support such efforts because they could sell more devices
Why would Microsoft want that?
They don't make any money selling the XBox, they make money licensing and selling games. The last thing they would want is to sell a lot of Xboxes that never get used to play any games.
-- Three thousand quirks and counting...
Would a HOW-TO on copying the Lik-Sang mod chips be a violation of the DMCA??
That may be funny, but I'm serious.
Since the argument is against Lik Sang because they made a profit, what if these chips THEMSELVES were pirated?
Surely Lik Sang would lose out (sorry!), but if THEY can't sell the things, I think they'd have a difficult time prosecuting someone who sells their design at not-for-profit. Since they are off the market, copying the chips themselves is no longer more effort than it's worth...
Anyone get one of these chips and study them? Can the firmware be dumped to an image and burnt with a common EEPROM burner?
I'm suprised no one has mentioned this because it answers one of the questions the poster posed.
d _m h
An Australian court has ruled that modchips are legal in Austraila. Here's the first link I came across. I'm sure there's more comprehensive information out there somewhere:
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-946640.html?tag=c
You are both right and wrong, of course FDA approval is a major hurdle, but companies won't even attempt that if they think their product might bring them to court. FDA approval is just a roughly known quantity of time and effort, whereas a single court case can put them out of business for good.
RU-486 is the `safe' abortive pill, has been in use in Europe for several years now (almost 15).
It has only just become widely available in the US (in 2000) even though using it is supposed to be less dangerous and simpler than the surgical procedure it replaces. The reason stated by Roussel-Uclaf, the makers of the pill, early in the proceedings was explicitely that bringing the drug into the US was far too dangerous.
Lots of details in a balanced essay on this charged subject at:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/aboru486.htm
Console mods don't cheat anyone out of possible income to cover costs.
No one in the USA has any right whatsoever to "possible income." Property rights? Yes! "Possible income" rights? No.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
I think the episode of the Simpson featuring bill buying out Homers Internet Business sums it up.
SMASH, BURN, BREAK and rape the competition.
Bottom Line is I'm seriously pissed cause I could give a fuck about a shitty XBOX.
In fact I wish they didn't even have XBOX accessories on LIK SANG.
Cause I was there for PS2 chips and other things.
I mean why didn't he just make them take of the xbox stuff bastard what is he in bed with sony now.
He's just an overbearing ass that keeps sticking his head in places its not wanted.
I was just about to order a part of LIK SANG.
Actually they're still releasing games for the NeoGeo, but in ridiculously small quantities, and for exorbitant prices, and only in Japan. Apart from that, it's totally out of date ^^;
Dumbass.
In the law there is no overlap between theft and copyright infringement whatsoever.
if I buy something, I own it.
Nobody, not the maker, not the seller, not my neighbor's dog, can tell me what to do with it. It's MINE.
For example, if I buy a car, I'm free to paint it any color I like. If I buy a pair of sneakers, I can lace them any way I like - maybe I won't use any laces at all. If I buy a guitar, I can put in different pickups. It's MINE now.
Or, look at it this way: after you buy something, can you tell the seller what to do with the money you just gave them? Of course not; your rights to it end when it changes hands. It's THEIR money now. Well, in exactly the same way, Microsoft's right to an xbox end when I pay for it (not that I would EVER buy ANYTHING from Microsoft); it's MY xbox now. They can't tell me what I can or can't do with it, any more than I can tell them what to do with the money i gave them.
If the law says different, then the law is immoral.
if i'm a grammar nazi, you're an illiteracy nazi.
...don't forget where Germany and Japan got their seed capital. We VC'd them, and they're in no military position to forget about it.
they hacked the existing copyrighted code.
In "Triumph of the Nerds", Robert X. Cringely talked about the 1st IBM clone, done by Compaq.
They had to duplicate the form and function of the IBM BIOS
WITHOUT HAVING SEEN IT.
This was a 2-step process, with a "Chinese wall" between the two.
Google search (mirror with significant text highlighted)
Jeff Marguglio
Don't be proud based upon America having the highest standard of living. A large part of that standard of living is held by such things as the IMF debt, the American military world dominance, the structure of American law as a haven for immoral and illegal investment...
I would say that shame should be a much greater component of your response to the American standard of living.
Now, if you wanted to talk about pride in any of the many ways that Americans are more honest, honorable, hard working (or whatever) than their counterparts in another country, then I'd say, go ahead and be proud.
As for me, I moved out of America to a 2nd world country, in order to build a business. I'm not sure that we'll be successful, but I'm working like heck to try to make it work. Some things about the locals here I find praiseworthy compared to Americans. Some things I find lacking. But in America I had zero chance to make something of myself. Here, I have a chance.
I think there's a pattern: that in each country, there are those who are bound by custom and law. Others, if they want to succeed in creating something new, often have to emmigrate to another place, where they are not bound by custom, and hopefully not too bound by law (if they are of good will) to succeed.
So if a person is failing in their own country, I'm all for migration. For various reasons, I was a complete failure in America. Here, overworked I am, failure I am not.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
The American system is essentially trial by battle, with lawyers functioning as knights. Of course the wealthier people can afford a better knight; the lesser knight loses (used to be dies), the wealthier man wins, and the poor get oppressed.
Well then how about the French system?
There, both sides are supposed to work together for justice; the problem, as presented by the famous novel "Papillon", is that very quickly both sides are working together, but not for justice, just for the appearance of justice.
Essentially, your question comes down to the following: in a fallen world, how do we hold the powerful accountable to the weak whom they abuse?
Unfortunately, the answer is contained in the definition of what powerful and weak are: you don't.
What you are seeking is impossible in that sense of the word; those minor details are no more minor than the minor details involved in solving Fermat's last theorem [I know, I know, they say it's been solved. But it isn't simple and wonderful.]
That said, there are some other answers that can be drawn out:
(1) Try to make the world less fallen, starting and finishing with #1. The less petty evil there is, the less likely you are to see abuses grow.
(2) If you are on the tracks and a train is coming, don't think that your flag will stop it, unless you are Bill Gates, and your flag simply says "I have a bigger train than you."
(3) Even the powerful are still accountable for their actions. They just aren't accountable to you. They are accountable to God and natural law. There is plenty of history to testify to the point: people who are powerful and abusive eventually pick too big a battle, and take themselves out. Don't take comfort in that fact--take warning, and don't be abusive, yourself.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
Mod chips are already "pirated" (cloned). The Messiah clones (Elvis, etc.) are an excellent example of this, and indeed that is the way that was chosen to get around the shakedown that happened - play legal whack-a-mole.
Another victory for MS. Must suck to be a linux and free as in beer advocate.
Well, 40b in the bank talks the talk and walks the walk.
If you hate MS for its business practices, buggy software, or whatever, why do you care what MS does with the XBox?
The less you can do with an XBox, the fewer will be sold.
So:
- Stop trying to get Linux to run on an XBox.
- Stop modding the XBox for *any* reason.
- Stop talking about the XBox. Let it die.
- Buy a Playstation 2 or stick to PC games.
Whatever.
Poor Nintendo - or going for a walk. ;)
---- *dog sitting next to a computer, with his beady eyes shifting left to right*
Mr. Jones related an incident from "some time back" when IBM Canada
Ltd. of Markham, Ont., ordered some parts from a new supplier in Japan. The
company noted in its order that acceptable quality allowed for 1.5 per cent
defects (a fairly high standard in North America at the time).
The Japanese sent the order, with a few parts packaged separately in
plastic. The accompanying letter said: "We don't know why you want 1.5 per
cent defective parts, but for your convenience, we've packed them separately."
-- Excerpted from an article in The (Toronto) Globe and Mail
- this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...