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How Objective Is Microsoft's Search?
bot writes "There have been a number of stories on Microsoft trying to do a 'Netscape' on Google.. what would a world in which Microsoft provides search look like? A search for 'linux' on msn.com give amazon and ebay as the top two results, and a microsoft site promoting migration from Linux to Windows as the fourth listing. A search on MSN India is even more amusing -- the top result is a dead link, and the second one is Linuxsucks.com."
I think an MS search would look like any other kind of anal sex on the internet.
makes me a firm believer in the fact that Microsoft is not objective in any way. Then again, neither is any company, but hey, it's Slashdot, where Microsoft bashing is almost a national pastime :)
The top links are for 'featured sites' (~= 'ads') and 'sponsored sites' (~= 'ads') and after you get past the ads, the results are roughly similar to google's results, with linux.org and redhat.com being in the same #1 and #3 spots, and linuxjournal surpassing linux.com as the #2 spot.
My journal has hot
what would a world in which Microsoft provides search look like?
:/
I have over 70 freaks, do you?
Is it just me, or has this been posted before? Or does Microsoft just do so amny stupid things that it all just blends together?
if(!cool) exit(-1);
Do you expect that someone who would use Microsoft Search over Google is going to be searching for linux?
:-p Question is, if MS can divert a significant amount of the search traffic to thier engine, will Google survive?
OTOH, geeks don't use IE either and it was able to overtake the superior Netscape browser in popularity, so the threat is there. Probably most people doing searches don't really care if Microsoft is censoring them or not
Twenties Retirement
This is the reason I really don't like MS at all.
Only a monopoly that has nothing to worry about can get away with screwing the results like this and still come out winning.
Will code a sig generator for food
This doesnt come as a surprise to me Its obvious that microsoft does these kinds of things and I am suprised that so many people use msn. Its extremely annoying, however, that a company can do something like this. It is similar to censorship because so many people use msn for information. Microsft is able to take advantage of that to tell people things that might not even be accurate just to help the company.
The Television Wiki
The MSN search clearly labels the first 7 hits as featured and sponsored sites. This is similar to Google's practice, except that they are listed without the happy colored backgrounds.
... that's all i wrote...
that you'd have to sign up to their Licensing Agreement 6.0 if you'd wanna breath there
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
Try filling in SCO at the Indian MSN search , the first _5_ lead to sco.com. A coincidence? I think not
And finally:
Just because you have a spine and refuse to do business with Microsoft and/or the mob, doesn't make you a "zealot".
Red Hat 9.0 is a boon for those who already use it, but it's too expensive to warrant a switch from Windows. Try SuSE (or the free Red Hat) for a better mix of price and features.
link
How very odd.
just looks like a page full of ads to me.
Or, I suppose if you've got some agenda, it's all a conspiracy to screw OSS into the ground by manipulating results on a substandard search engine. Gee.
About as objective as a Linux user's view of the SCO case.
Obviously much better then MS search netscape search gives better results After 3 supported linsk the first link is linux.com Seems alot better then MS search
"WebTV: bringing the Internet into the shallow end of the gene pool since 1995" - Martin Bishop
after looking at MSN's "linux" search results, it looks like they're organized with "featured sites" listed first, which are presumably microsoft "partners". this is followed by "sponsored sites" [ie, paid spots]...only then do you get to the "web directory sites", which i'm assuming most people doing a search are looking for...MS has no chance in the search arena until they stop giving such obvious priority to money...of course, we know that that will never happen...
I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
A search from msn.ca on the term "linux" gave some reasonable results I think. There was Linux.com as the first, followed by sites like linuxcanada.com, some provincial/city linux organizations from places like Edmonton, BC and Alberta, some links to online linux certification classes.
Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me and it was interesting to see how tailored the results were given there were a lot of canadian sites up there and canadian area linux organization links. I have to say I was actually impressed given what I was ready to see from the headline of this article
If we were only going to give good, friendly corporations our money, well, we wouldn't have to worry about budgeting. Hope you're avoiding that IBM like the plague.
I can only imagine the look on thier faces when they see how many times "Linux" has been queried on their search engine in a single day.
MSN Search: Linux -- More Useful Everyday
:)
so they got something right
I and others mentioned this awhile back in the article about MS trying to overtake Google. In all honesty, this may just be a flaw in their search algorithm. It's obvious that they're accepting payola for rankings, so if their algorithm looks like:
1. Return results on top payer (Amazon?)
2. Return results on other payers (Ebay, etc)
3. Return results from a search of Microsoft's site
4. Return the reults from a search of the internet
Then linux isn't singled out. Of course we can speculate all we want to, since this is Slashdot and everything is a conspiracy. In all honesty it looks fishy, but if my above theory about their algorithm is true it makes perfect sense. Sorry MS, but if you want to replace Google on the internet, you need to be OBJECTIVE. Right now you're just another search engone, and a crappy one at that.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
You expect the convicted monopolist not to queer the results towards making a buck?
I expect their searching would be as evenhanded as their installation routines.
Advice: when building a multi-boot configuration, install the monopoly-ware first, then whatever else you care to run.
And if you need to find reference information, use google.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I assume that by doing a "Netscape," you mean making a better product that people favor over the inferior product.
Look, guys, here's how it goes down: if Microsoft's product is better than Google, then more people will use it, and yes, you're going to see them pull a Netscape, in how people flock to the superior product. There is no law banning people from innovation! Betcha Google's thankful for that one right about now. Judging by Google's past in comparison with Netscape's shoddy attempts at innovation, I have a lot of faith that Microsoft simply can't compete (yes, sorry geeks, compete) with Google. You're unlikely to see Microsoft beat them out here.
Indeed it is quite fortunate for us users that Google is more skilled at its trade than Netscape ever was, by probably a magnitude of, oh, say, a trillion. I don't particularly want to have to flock to Microsoft's search engine for good results if it turns out that it ends up being the best thing out there, the way I had to flock to IE for good browsing when it took advantage of Netscape's pathetic stagnancy, but the fact is that I will and most users will use the best thing out there and if Microsoft offers it. Them's the breaks, nerds, but rest easy: the big smarty boys are Google know how to handle it jusss fine. Just ask jwz.
Innuendo, vague statements that imply things without actually accusing anything, more innuendo, half-correct but marginally misleading facts.
( Read More... | 30 of 31 comments )
Well this is nothing new evey major search engine does atleast what is left of them. If you search on google most of the results would be business based. there were lot of times when i would loose my mind seeing hits to buy thing rather than a "relavant" result. There were lot of articles even on /. which said how google was acting like/with the big brother.
Trust no one Mr. Mulder.
Everybody knows that the 1.0 release of every Microsoft product sucks. But for the markets they want to take over, they are often able to squash the competition by v. 3.0 or 4.0.
Google's obviously done a fantastic job so far in the search world. But then, Netscape did a fantastic job with Navigator until it turned into Communicator bloatware. Then Microsoft came out with a 4.0 release that ate Netscape's lunch.
Google clearly has the brains to fight, but do they have the resources to remain the #1 engine, now that The Dark Lord has decided he wants that particular crown?
In any case, MS often has the last laugh over people who ridicule their 1.0 releases.
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
What people don't take into account is that search engines are not required to be objective. Typically, and yes this is a fallacy, people expect the news to be objective. The press is thought to have a certain responsibility for being both fair, accurate and objective. People take this inherent belief and extrapolate it to search engines. MSN does not have to be objective. Google doesn't have to be objective. However, Google's whole premise is to help people find what they want fast, and they do it very well. If they didn't, people would not use it. MSN, too, wants to help people find things fast as well, but it might appear that they perhaps slant the search results just a tad. Maybe not, I don't know. My point is, if they do, that's fine because they are under no obligation to not do so. Ideally, information would be free to all people, with no hidden agendas in the presentation. Ideally, communism works great, too.
Don't be a zoa (zealous overbearing ass), be happy!
Where did they get the money to advertise on MSN?
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Break out the gloves.
Search for linux on slashdot.org and get the goatse guy. If you think this is troll, try it your self.
Let's see...it's not "Ask Slashdot" and it's not an article or really all that informative. Slow Sunday, time to stir the pot?
Not only would MS cheat to win a poll/election, they stuff thier search results making linux look bad. This is just simply bad business practices. Did you ever hear in any business class that conpetition was NOT good for business?
... but I wouldn't trust their search engine even if I compared it to other search engines and saw its results were reasonable. The ranking algorithm of a search engine is always a heuristic of some kind, where even changing one of many coefficients by 1% can change the search results for some particular topic, so it's close to impossible to tell if the results returned for some particular search are biased because the authors wanted it this way, or if it's just an accident. There is actually no control over the different search engines (of course the ranking algorithm is a secret), and with people having objections to google (google-watch), I fear to even think what could be lurking inside a search engine owned (not 0wn3d) by m$.
being violated by Mr Billy linux s**ks.com. I think I'm gonna go have a cry now.
Never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity.
Indian search on Windows. Only 10th result is good. First one is Windows Media Player, 2-6 are about Tablet PC with the same page for WinXP for Tablets appearing twice. There are also such wonders of relevance as Windows into the Soul of Satyajit Ray and Windows to the Universe - Jupiter.
Search for Windows at MSN is only marginally better. The poster of the story overlooked that first 4-6 results are "Featured sites", which (as well as "sponsored") is the marketese for "advertisements". Amazon will happily sell to MSN searchers practically everything. Heck, the second result for shit offers that I "Purchase Expensive Shit" on Amazon. I shit you not.
There are other gems at the MSN, like a "featured" result, suggesting that "MSN 8 offers a better browsing experience: Try it free for 60 days." when you search for netscape or gnu.org results starting after 12th position when you search for gnu. The first result, of course, being the famous E-gnu.com African Safari Travel...
MSN (despite their claims to the contrary) is a mix between marketing crap and inferior technology. Thanks, I will pass.
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
If Microsoft wants to compete and beat Google then the results of a search will have to be relevant. If they are not, then people will continue to use Google.
Would you continue to use a particular phone book if it failed to supply you with accurate or consistent phone numbers? Of course not and you would tell your friends the same thing. Word of mouth is still the most powerful force the Internet has and if the Microsoft search engine supplies searches with "sponsored" links or sub-quality links that do fuck all for your search then that is going to get around.
End of story.
Linuxiso.org is a featured site. We even get a little MS butterfly.C HECKED&FORM= MSNH&v=1&q=linuxiso
http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=
SCO is still down!
I wonder when it will be up again, i cannot wait
to visit them again.
Searched for: *BSD is dying
MSN: 6072 results
Google: 11 500 results
Conclusion: *BSD isn't dying as much in M$ eyes
Searched for: open source
MSN: 200 results
Google: 5 000 000
Conclusion: M$ obviously fears open source
Searched for: monopoly
MSN: had monopoly.com as a top pick
Google: had an antimonopoly site ranked at #4
Conclusion: M$ is evil
I don't think a very light-gray on a white background warrants "clearly" labeled. It is labeled alright - but I didn't notice these when I first looked at the search. You might know this if you use MSN search on a regular basis - but it is really bad journalism when just a few readers can't tell the adds from the rest.
Their search is wierd ... it is a cross between a search and a directory.
They have the paid "feature sites", then the "web directory sites", and only then the rest of the stuff, which autmoatically puts all the non-commercial things onto page 2. Screw that. I prefer Google, mainly because the paid-for stuff is at the side and yoou cna get right to the results faster.
I would look like and smell like an Iloo
after you loged out.
Why is this worse than "more evil than satan himself"?
Is it any surprise at all that an MS-backed search engine would yield dubious results? Maybe someone with the technical expertise could start an open source search engine project to offer people an alternative to yet another attempt by the Redmond Giant Octopus to grow another tentacle. Is there such a project already? If not, why not? Who wouldn't love to see a search site completely devoid of commercial content and "paid links" and whatnot?
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
While if I was google I'd keep an eye on what is coming out of Redmond I wouldn't be too worried at this point.
Google is the leading search engine because it returns the most useful results. IE has directed people to vairious search engines for years and still people will type "www.google.com" when they want to search. I suppose Microsoft could always start a astroturf FUD campaign but I don't see what else they can do to unseat google.
When 'MSN' starts beeing a verb then maybe google has something to worry about.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
No definititve information, but oddly enough the DNS technical contact is based out of Washington. Coincidence?...
Registrant:
Sucks, Linux (LINUXSUCKS2-DOM)
LinuxSucks
1 my way
my way, TN 43365
US
Domain Name: LINUXSUCKS.COM
Administrative Contact:
Sucks, Linux (KG4621) linux__sucks@HOTMAIL.COM
LinuxSucks
1 my way
my way, TN 43365
US
(221) 261-3088 fax: (914) 296-1088
Technical Contact:
Go2Net, Inc. (DA3706-ORG) dns-admin@HYPERMART.NET
Go2Net, Inc.
999 Third Ave, Ste 4700
Seattle, WA 98104
US
206.447.1595F fax: - - - - - 206.447.1625
Record expires on 08-Oct-2003.
Record created on 09-Oct-2002.
Database last updated on 24-Aug-2003 16:51:07 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.HYPERMART.NET 66.150.0.50
NS2.HYPERMART.NET 206.29.192.47
All your base are belong to us!
MSN just appears to have a different aglorithm for sorting the results. I mean, how could anybody complian when 5 out of 6 of the returned sites are places where you can actually buy linux? That fourth link is a little fishy I suppose. But I think the way these links are sorted make a greta deal of sense given my stereotype of a person who uses MSN search over Google.
Referrals. MS wants to partner with everyone and direct the hapless Windows owner or MSN subscriber to targeted purchases like a junkie to a fix. Ideally so they can get a kickback from both the buyer and seller and become enough of a market presence that they can make demands. It's an extension of their "become necessary" type of business model. They are not in the business of providing information. They are not in the business of being helpful. They fully realize that the OS market will not grow forever. This is the MS of the future and it's one ugly bastard.
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
The 3rd link on MSN search leads to a Redhat 9 review where "Expensive" is listed as one of the cons...
Huh?!
This guy is way out there
According to google, more people think linux sucks, I wonder why? *cough*filedialog*cough*modemsupport*cough*RTFM*co ugh*Debian*cough*
Facts and reasoning in a Slashdot article? No need for us to get in a hissy-fit over nothing? How dare thee blaspheme our view of the world!
"Sufferin' succotash."
then click "I'm feeling Lucky".
I always look to slashdot when I want fair and balanced opinions on Microsoft!
Look this 'google' seach in msn search. You will notice that below 'google' as first entry, is MSN Search...
Another interesing thing: A frind of mine tell me that the word 'Linux' doesn't exists in Encarta 2003 DVD :-D When you search for 'linux', it shows 2 non-related topics
And.. will you trust in a 'Microsoft Wallet'? :-D
drmad
A search on msn.com also brings up the rather amusing
http://tech.msn.com/software/OS/Linux/
section of the MSN website. Watch MS try and sell you boxed RedHat!
netcraft reports linuxsucks.com as running Apache on FreeBSD...
Searching on MSN for 'linux' the 3rd link is to tech.msn.com and says this:
" Red Hat 9.0 is a boon for those who already use it, but it's too expensive to warrant a switch from Windows. Try SuSE (or the free Red Hat) for a better mix of price and features."
Hmmm....? Biased?? Naw! Not good ole' MS!
The domain www.linuxsucks.com is owned by a company called InfoSpace Inc. Microsoft has VERY strong ties to InfoSpace Inc. as Microsoft featured it as a company that saved money and improved reliability by using Microsoft's garbage... er... I mean software:
C as eStudy.asp?CaseStudyID=13920
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/
And there's more than that, do a search for "Infospace inc" and Microsoft on Google and you'll find many more connections between the companies.
So, don't let the amateurish appearance fool you, while linuxsucks.com appears to be written by ordinary people simply expressing a point of view, it's actually a well funded website with a clear agenda.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
could someone post a mirror, please ?
I see a lot of comments saying "they're sponsored links, perhaps it is unbiased". Well maybe, though a search engine with that many sponsored links isn't going to be useful.
But before we let MS off the hook, try looking at the absolute numbers. A search for Linux returns 542 hits, while a search for windows returns 2402. (My god, their search engine must be _tiny_). Compare these to google where linux returns 59M, and windows 63M. So, MSN gives windows outranking linux by a factor of five, while Google puts them almost equal. Hardly convincing evidence given MSN could be barely described as a toy, but it still looks a bit fishy to me.
Seems more or less that the 1st link is pointed at trying to wrestle people off the LAMP platform. However considering the copius amount of IIS viruses that tend to pop up plus the rock solid stabilty and ability to do basically what you want on the LAMP platform really proves you just dont need MicroSoft's IIS and messaging platforms at all.
Especially if LAMP+Jabber would cover everything. And it also looks like the Outlook killers are beginning to mature and with large scale deployments in countries such as Germany it will generate enough feedback and such features that are needed to be put in are.
Also with China's decision to not use propriety software in worlds largest government MicroSoft is basically forced to try to woo businesses and home users though ever copy they could sell in china would be at a loss due to the differences in cost of living.
"Linux" ~= 500 results ".net" ~= 32000 results A pretty clear case of censorship, I would think.
msn: 542hits
google: 60,900,000 hits
now i know getting that many results is not really helpful but at least it shows there was an actual search. that combined with the fact that the first 20 results on msn were just ads...well its m$ nuff said
Microsoft has been proven in court to be a monopoly, and this is how monopolies work.
People should not fear their government. Governments should fear their people.
Oh yeah. That's quality reporting there :)
Slashdot is as ojective as MS search.
And do a search on google for the letter "s" (which I do accidentally all the time since I occasionally mess up using firebirds keyword search) and see what comes up on top.
All your imaginary beowolf cluster of sigs are belong to insensitive Russian SCO clods, that can beat the rush and slashdot the links early because the subscribe to YOU!!!! (four) Profit!!!... this message not indorsed by IBM
I bet the people who wrote that Apache->IIS migration page are pretty excited to see people actually reading it all of a sudden.
One of the things I like about google is that no matter what country you are in, one of the links on their small, uncluttered, clean presentation is a link to google.com (in english). One cookie seems to be involved in dealing with google in different domains.
OTOH the MSN 'clutter sites' around the world just don't have this kind of 'come home to mama', uniform, pleasant experience - not to mention needing to pass through at least 3 cookies if you say 'no cookies, and moz please remember this'. If you say yes to cookies then, at least with www.msn.fr, _twelve_ cookies are involved.
MSN has a _long_ way to go on the interface front. Try going to www.google.ch, and you have french, german, italian and the ever present google.com link in english. And just one cookie... But www.msn.ch is german, french, and that's it. If there are more choices I certainly can't see it in all that clutter. Yuck.
Latest News: microsoft
It cuts both ways :)
MSN Search is temporarily unable to process your request.
Please try again in a few minutes.
EID: f:1010762302 - 10004:1059
Try MSN Internet Software for FREE!
I was starting up an MS program today and came across the following error:
SoBigF is not your default worm
would you like to make this your
default worm?
click yes cancel
MoFscker
Does noone remember the google search "go to hell" with microsoft as the top result. This is bad but its not the first time we've seen biased search results.
On the other hand, Mozilla turns up as a "Top Pick" on the same msn search page
I don't usually participate in organized Microsoft-bashing, but does anyone else get the impression that MSN Web Products team is a quiet saboteur, that tries to produce extremely unusable products? Perhaps your experience is more successful. While generally used to Microsoft office products and having Win 2k as OS of choice on my home machine, I abhor MSN products and try to avoid them whenever I can.
Passport. I use Passport to log on to a bunch of sites, and since I registered for it, I generally choose the Passport log in on such sites as uBid.com and others which provide an option. Passport itself has some issues with recognizing cookies on my machine.
When I go to a site, even Microsoft-owned MSDN site, the Sign In icon in there, but after a click it doesn't sign me in, which is quite annoying, since you get no error messages, and nothing to tell you that you haven't been successfully signed on. You have to choose Sign Out, then go back to Sign In, then repeat this procedure in case the passport cookie still doesn't work. Usability my ass.
Another interesting tidbit of information - Microsoft requires an @msn.com or @hotmail.com for Passport log-in, which is fine, they need you to authenticate on their server to prove the Passport identity. For those of us who are not MSN subscribers for dial-up or broadband, @hotmail.com is the only option. Which is fine as well - I went to hotmail.com, registered an account, never used it, except for logging in to Passport. Except one thing - your account with Hotmail expires if you don't use it for 90 days. Well, I am not using it at all, I just an address to sign-on to Passport, and every once in a while (every 3 months, as you can guess), there's that happy horseshit with (1) signing on to a Passport site, (2) getting a message your e-mail is not validf, (3) re-activating your Hotmail account, which you don't use and never plan to use, (4) signing in to Passport getting perhaps an error or two about insuccessful logons.
MSN Messenger 6. Pretty interface, colorful pictures, what more can a regular Joe User want for communicating with a friend on the other side of the country? For us, techies, it's SIP support and excellent ability for MSN Messenger to bypass firewalls and corporate security stuff.
However, with that many pretty buttons telling you to check the stock valuation, current weather and news, one cannot resist doing exactly that. However, all of it seems to be broken for me, I get some weird stocks, some weird weather and some unrelated news, even though I am subscribed with the passport ID that should be recognized by MoneyCentral, MSNBC and others in MSN network. Somehow the first time I sign in to Yahoo Messenger, everything there is just right, maybe it's just me not being able to figure out how to customize the settings for Messenger.
MSN.com Everyone that left that URL as starting page for IE after going through an install, raise your hand. [..sound of crickets..] Yeah, that's what I thought. Just ads, nothing useful, maybe an occasional MSNBC article headline that might be interesting.
Ok, rant is over, but it's really no wonder MSN is a money-losing operation. Always has been and probably will be for a while.
Think of how people don't even know how change their homepage from MSN to something a little more useful. As a result, they probably search from MSN all the time. When they investigate linux one day, they are returned a bunch of links on how to move from linux to Microsoft and they're search ends there. Sure, I understand that Microsoft is trying to protect their interests. If someone asked me about something I sold, I wouldn't point them to my better competitor. But, MSN is different. Microsoft is forcing people to view MSN. IE tries to default back to MSN even after you've changed your home page. This is exactly why the FCC shouldn't be allowed to loosen media ownership rules.
http://www.askthevoid.com
Would you continue to use a particular phone book if it failed to supply you with accurate or consistent phone numbers?
Funny you should use that particular example. I recently moved and got a new phone number. Turns out this phone number used to belong to a pet store. They went out of business about 1 to 2 years ago. Only problem, just about all the private printed phone books still have them listed in the yellow pages. I've actually started asking people where they got the phone number. About half get it from current "private" phone books. The others get it from phone books 2 years or older. I get so many calls for that pet store that I've considered starting my own pet store.
. 62,400 repetitions make one truth -- Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
Just for fun: # nmap -sS -O -v www.linuxsucks.com
... good.
Starting nmap V. 3.00 ( www.insecure.org/nmap/ )
Host server18.go2net.com (66.150.0.148) appears to be up
Initiating SYN Stealth Scan against server18.go2net.com (66.150.0.148)
Adding open port 443/tcp
Adding open port 80/tcp
Adding open port 21/tcp
Adding open port 13782/tcp
Adding open port 13783/tcp
Adding open port 22/tcp
The SYN Stealth Scan took 289 seconds to scan 1601 ports.
Warning: OS detection will be MUCH less reliable because we did not find at least 1 open and 1 closed TCP port
For OSScan assuming that port 21 is open and port 32262 is closed and neither are firewalled
Interesting ports on server18.go2net.com (66.150.0.148):
(The 1595 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: filtered)
Port State Service
21/tcp open ftp
22/tcp open ssh
80/tcp open http
443/tcp open https
13782/tcp open VeritasNetbackup
13783/tcp open VeritasNetbackup
Remote operating system guess: FreeBSD 4.6-RELEASE or -STABLE (July 2002) (X86)
Uptime 361.826 days (since Tue Aug 27 20:23:00 2002)
TCP Sequence Prediction: Class=truly random
Difficulty=9999999 (Good luck!)
IPID Sequence Generation: Busy server or unknown class
Nmap run completed -- 1 IP address (1 host up) scanned in 302 seconds
Hmm... FreeBSD... interesting (although possibly inaccurate)... it does explain the uptime...
Has someone else noted the slight difference in numbers of hits? 542 on MSN vs some 59,300,000 on Google?
Does anyone know why?
Searching for linux xbox gives a top link to the Xbox Linux Project with a "top pick" icon next to it.
It's pretty obvious that the results on MSN are biased. Do a search for open source on MSN. You get back a bunch of results that don't really apply. That is, except for the first result, which is an article on Infoworld about how SCO is hurting the open source movement. Now do the same search on Google--the results are _much_ more appropriate.
What would a SCO-Group search look like?
IT finds every except what you are looking for and charges per search rates of $1million
Don't Tread on OpenSource
"ASP.NET will help crush Linux once and for all."
Yes! There's already a proof of that!
The first pick is the FBSD project home.
I guess they dont see *bsd as much of a threat, today.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If Microsoft wants to compete and beat Google then the results of a search will have to be relevant. If they are not, then people will continue to use Google.
I'm sorry, but no. People will continue to use MSN because they buy a computer at Best Buy. The computer from Best Buy comes with Windows, which comes with IE, which doesn't let you change your default search engine without hacking the registry. It also automatically directs you to MSN search when you mistype a URL.
Would you continue to use a particular phone book if it failed to supply you with accurate or consistent phone numbers?
You would if it was the phonebook that came with your house/apartment and you either didn't know there was a different one (take the US, where many people have no idea that there exists non-Bell sources of telephone listings) or you had drive across town and stand in line for two hours to get the new one. I use that last part of the comparison because most people still use dialup and even downloading the relatively small Mozilla Firebird (~7 MB) takes a good chunk of time over dialup.
Of course, you could just argue that people would be willing to simply type in the URL or bookmark it. But many office workers I know can't get through the day without that little sidebar (which in IE points at MSN search).
The MSN search is not necessarily evil, just totally helpless. MSN only find 542 documents containing "linux" while Google finds 21,000,000. The fact that Amazon comes up first just means that MSN search has very bad rankings.
Its all about controlling the dialog. If you control the source of information, you win. thats one major reason of how we ended up with an politically apathetic population in the us, the people who control the dialog (re. media/news) fail to provide information while those in power actively seek to say the uninformative equivalent, of nothing to see here move along like good consumers, thus turning democracy into an exercise of public mind control and demagogery.
ok, off the political bus for a second, has anyone actually looked at linuxsucks.com, the first non-dead link on the msn india linux search. its a complete farce of disinformation that oozes its source as microsoft from every screen pixel. every page i've looked at is disinformation, and complaints. its all aimed at controlling the information dialog, convincing consumers and business users that there is nothing to see here, and that they should move along back to the ms fold, while arming them with the disinformation to resist encroachment on microsoft's market share.
consider how recently linux adoption in govt and universities was being considered in india, and microsoft's efforts to avoid at all costs public sector adoption of linux. this search engine is a taste of whats to come and a continuation of microsoft's siege and predator mentality of win using all available resources at whatever the costs. except this time their seeking to disenfranchise people of access to real sources of information. the most effective weapon of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed. i don't know about anyone else, but microsoft provided search results, scare the hell out of me.
Just for giggles, I did a search for "SCO" and you wouldn't believe what I found at the #1 "Featured Site":
# Santa Cruz Operation Top Pick
Long-time vendor of UNIX for PCs has made the transition to Linux. [emphasis mine] Learn about their consulting services and their software offerings.
www.sco.com
The dogcow says "Moof!"
The best newbie linux site is Just Linux
And canada still sucks
A: It isn't. At all. Next question.
Try this. Search for Open Source on MSN .
Top result: Find out how SCO's copyright suit over Linux has made open source advocates think more about how commercializing software creates large intellectual property issues.
The other results are not that great either.
Now try this. Search for Open Source on Google .
Top results: Open Source Initiative OSI. OSDL. GNU's Not Unix. etc. etc.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
This might take a bit, but bear with me. On google.com, you can search for how many times a site is linked from another site. You use the command (e.g.) link:www.websitehere.com This search is very cool to discern how popular a site is. For example, google.com itself is linked almost a half million times. Yahoo, well over a million times.
However, www.msn.com has a lot fewer than half million. Fewer than a thousand even! In fact, there are only 51 (yes, Fifty One) People in the world who link to www.msn.com. www.MSNBC fares even worse with 7 (SEVEN) links to it. Compare this to www.cnn.com with 74,000 links.
What does this mean? Well, if you consider these links as votes (which they are... if you like a site, you link it from your website or blog), it means that no one likes MSN or MSNBC at all. But, i wonder, why do people still go to these sites? The only answer i can give is this: Monopolistic practice. If you have almost a complete monopoly on the desktop, and you link your website on every one, of course you'll get some people to go to it. Could this example be used in a court case? Possibly, i guess (IANAL, but my bro-in law is
Do what you want with this info, i just thought the /. crowd would like to see this.
licking the FUDgeCycle(ch(i)ump)?
.asp for va lairIE's whoreabull pateNTdead PostBlock(tm) devise?, used against the truth/to protect robbIE's payper liesense stock markup bosses/corepirate nazi 'sponsors'. yuk.
no matter, we're still here for you.
that's right, after the walking dead finish exterminating themselves, & sadly enough, some of us, it won't take long to clean this cesspool of greed/fear execrable up.
we're calling it the planet/population rescue program (formerly unknown as the oil for babies initiatve).
the Godless wons are helping by continuing to show where their hearts lie.
what's wrong with folks selling their kode? if it causes convenience, & interoperates with all the other kode on the planet, we say, no harm, no foul, so long as you fail to employ gangsterious/felonious practices to asphyxiate the 'competition'. sabotaging your free version of anything is a tad dastardly. if there's value added, without FUDging up the compatability, we'll pay. same with music. no more gouging dough though.
fortunately, mr stallman et AL, etcetera, is now offering comparable/superior software, to the payper liesense spy/bug wear feechurned models, in almost every circumstance. there'll be few, if any more softwar billyonerrors, as if there's a need for even won. tell 'em robbIE. you are won of the last wons whois soul DOWt, right?
back on task.
what might happen to US if unprecedented evile/the felonious georgewellian southern baptist freemason fuddite rain of error, fails to be intervened on?
you already know that too. stop pretending. it doesn't help/makes things worse.
they could burn up the the main processor. that would be the rapidly heating planet/population, in case you're still pretending not to notice.
of course, having to badtoll va lairIE's whoreabully infactdead, pateNTdead PostBlock(tm) devise, robbIE's ego, the walking dead, etc..., doesn't slow us down a bit.
that's right. those foulcurrs best get ready to see the light. the WANing daze of the phonIE greed/fear/ego based, thieving/murdering payper liesense hostage taking stock markup FraUD georgewellian fuddite execrable are #ed. talk about a wormIE cesspool of deception? eradicating yOUR domestic corepirate nazi terrorist/gangsters will be the new national pastime.
communications will improve, using whatever power sources are available.
you gnu/software folks are to be commended. we'd be nearly doomed by now (instead, we're opening yet another isp service) without y'all. the check's in the mail again.
meanwhile... for those yet to see the light.
don't come crying to us when there's only won channel/os left.
nothing has changed since the last phonIE ?pr? ?firm? generated 'news' brIEf. lots of good folks/innocents are being killed/mutilated daily by the walking dead. if anything the situations are continuing to deteriorate. you already know that.
the posterboys for grand larcenIE/deception would include any & all of the walking dead who peddle phonIE stock markup payper to millions of hardworking conservative folks, & then, after stealing/spending/disappearing the real dough, pretend that nothing ever happened. sound familiar robbIE? these fauxking corepirate nazi larcens, want us to pretend along with them, whilst they continue to squander yOUR "investmeNTs", on their soul DOWt craving for excess/ego gratification. yuk
no matter their ceaseless efforts to block the truth from you, the tasks (planet/population rescue) will be completed.
the lights are coming up now.
you can pretend all you want. our advise is to be as far away from the walking dead contingent as possible, when the big flash occurs. you wouldn't want to get any of that evile on you.
as to the free unlimited energy plan, as the lights come up, more&more folks will stop being misled into sucking up more&more of the infant killing barrolls of crudeness, & learn that it's m
You are underestimating the MicroSoft's power to "integrate" this search with their OS, and to IE. This will cut off the first line of access for Google, and your average user will use what is available to him. Google will have to find a way to combat this.
I mean, if I was in charge of anti-competitive measures at MS, I would certainly fund such "fan" sites. I mean, it's not as if such dirty tricks were unheard of in MS's case. As a Ninja enthusiast, surely you understand the usefulness of such underhanded tactics to achieve victory, don't you?
Reminder: find a new sig
Just searched of best operating system and turned up with a most agreable resultK ED&FORM= MSNH&v=1&q=best+operating+system
http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHEC
"There have been a number of stories on Microsoft trying to do a 'Netscape' on Google.. what would a world in which Microsoft provides search look like? A search for 'linux' on msn.com give amazon and ebay as the top two results, and a microsoft site promoting migration from Linux to Windows as the fourth listing. A search on MSN India is even more amusing -- the top result is a dead link, and the second one is Linuxsucks.com."
This story is ridiculous. Didn't the editors even check the links? The search results they complain about are advertisments, not the actual search results. While one might complain about the presentation of the ads/search results, the subject of this article is nothing short of incorrect, or an lie.
So let's rewrite this story just a bit:
There have been a number of stories about Microsoft on Slashdot, particularly on Microsoft's efforts to create a search service. What does "journalism" done by Slashdot look like? A search for 'microsoft' on slashdot.org gives a number of stories that are incorrect, simple misreadings of facts, or completely biased accounts of facts. A search on Slashdot for 'editor' is even more amusing -- most of the readership agrees that the site has little to do with objective, quality journalism.
Direct link to search. Look at the number two spot. When I did the search it was three headlines:
;D
1: Microsoft warns of critical IE flaws
2: Microsoft Windows: Insecure by Design
and 3: Microsoft finds security flaws
Not that good for micro$oft
The search for linux on MSN India have the following top results:
Linux and Unix Resources
The other side of linux
Linux for all
And not linuxsucks or whatever but bashing MS is just the default acction aint it?
Just click the "Introducing Linux" link. It brings you to another msn page saying "Red Hat 9.0 is a boon for those who already use it, but it's too expensive to warrant a switch from Windows."
The following links aren't much better. They have this carefully hand-crafted look to them. "Alternatives to Linux", "Linux Training, only $2095 for 5 days", etc.
It's funny to see how far the world's biggest software company will go to bash free software rather than trying to beat them with better software. They've got enough spare cash to hire a hundred thousand programmers for ten years. They could basically write a new operating system from the ground up that runs almost anything on almost anything (assuming enough ram & hard disk space), and does it well, but instead they have probably under a thousand people developing their products and they're getting roughed up by dozens of open source teams of 1-20 active developers each. Not to mention that they sell a stripped down version of Windows to their main audience, when they could give everyone copies of their best version and only see a small drop in sales. Their licensing strategy is holding them back.
Just Linux
You mean they don't match them to this article about SCO threats to sue Linux end-users?
lexbaby
"Be Brave, Be Loyal, Be True." -- Hawkeye Pierce
Linux Sucks dot com operating system ... And take a look at wired while you're at it, or this old site: why linux sucks ...
You will find that Linux sucks so bad that you are grateful we warned you!
Description: Message board for posting your opinions. Read some articles.
www.linuxsucks.com/ - 37k - Aug 23, 2003 - Cached - Similar pages
TOP REASONS WHY LINUX SUCKS ... To tell you the truth, I think only linux sucks, because no Microsoft OS sucks. No Microsoft OS crashes. No Microsoft OS pisses you off at any point. ...
TOP REASONS WHY LINUX SUCKS.
www.microsoft.com/LinuxStrategy.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages
Microsoft Windows 2003 Server
The only operating system available in the world, Microsoft Windows 2003 Server is the best operating system money can license. It costs an arm and a leg, too, so you know it's good. Microsoft. Where do you want to go today?
www.microsoft.com/Windows.html - 16k - Cached - Similar pages
First thing that I tried was a search for "windows virus".
Results: nothing but anti-virus software ads.
Well, almost nothing. There is one actual, real-life virus mentioned in the top ten. Oddly enough, it's CNN.com - Virus That Infects Windows and Linux Identified. Incredible. All those zillions of Microsoft-only viruses and a search for "Windows virus" identifies the one virus that can also attack Linux.
Searching msn for "debian" does in fact return debian.org as it's #1 result.
However, notice the "mild" understatement in the description:
FEATURED SITES - ABOUT
# Debian Top Pick
Free distribution of the GNU/Linux operating system, which includes such features as multitasking, virtual memory, shared libraries and TCP/IP.
www.debian.org
R E A L L Y! I must be stoned :)
A quick search for best operating system results in:
Microsoft weigh in at number 21....
Do you need a website upgrade?
Would you continue to use a particular phone book if it failed to supply you with accurate or consistent phone numbers?
If you didn't know the city and it was the only phone book in your hotel room, I bet you would.
Remember: what really ate Netscape's lunch was the fact that most people don't care enough to switch. Even if they're miserable.
I remember the first versions of IE were pretty terrible compared to Netscape. Then, around version 4.0, it began to make inroads and become a worthy competitor. By version 5.5 Netscape was feeling the pain and IE had become the standard browser.
I imagine the same roadmap for a Microsoft search engine. Intially it will probably suck, but it will have to improve if it is going to overcome Google. Spurred on by the default settings in IE it will probably gain some market share. Microsoft has a huge hurdle to overcome and unless their search engine is USEFUL and actually provides useful search results, no one is going to use it, default or not.
I have real doubts that Microsoft can pull this off. Google has such predominant word of mouth that the word "google" is synonomous with web search.
Search for "more evil than satan himself" and the first five matches are still to or about Microsoft!
I swear, back when I was using IE 3, whenever I typed in www.netscape.com it would come up with a page not found window. But the second time I went to it, it went there fine.
--- to swing on the spiral...
This is from http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=linux&FORM=SM CRT
an interesting result.
http://tech.msn.com/software/OS/Linux/ (LINK)
I don't find it to bias, unlike Slashdot editor's.
+++ David Watts 5495 0.0 0.5 1888 884
I missed the ad notation, and I was skimming for exactly something like that, which I expected to be on each entry. The idea is that users are used to filtering out tons of crap on the page, and neatly filter out the "FEATURED SITES" heading.
I don't think we need to worry about being misleading so much as the fact that MSN is simply less useful than google for exactly this reason. Google's ads are clearly marked and it's obvious where the regular listings are, which aren't very far down the page. This isn't the case for MSN.
May we never see th
If you do a search for Linux on MSNBC you only get 148 hits, the majority of which are not really about Linux. The same search at CNN gives you 780, the majority of which were actually articles about Linux. This guy may have been off base about MSN's search engine, but he was right about MSNBC's. My guess is that since MSNBC's reporters are encouraged to not cover the competition and so it shows in what is in their news archive.
Gotta give them some credits, search for "Microsoft ethics" returns www.msboycott.com page. :)
http://archonon.sytes.net/
Of course you are a dirty FUD spreading Linux user. Your operating system can't get ahead on its own technical merits, so you have to resort to mudslinging and propoganda. I'm not the least bit suprised that you would have no problem funding a site like that to slander your competition.
More importantly, if you were new to the Internet and you wanted to find something online, wouldn't your first reaction be to click on the "Internet search" button that might be integrated into your Microsoft OS?
They haven't filtered out "Muenchen Linux Balmer" but some of the first hits "windowsupdate Linux" show no meaningless connections (Freshmeat...). Tenth link is "Slashdot | Local Root Hole in Linux Kernels"?!?
The person behind this article is either lying, hyping or blind.
Search engines are so inconsistent these days that "broken" is a better description than "conspiracy." Using the appearance of being "broken" as a cover for "conspiracy" is way beyond reach, for Google or for Microsoft.
Example: Since May, Google reports 20 backlinks for www.google-watch.org and shows 16 of them. But Alltheweb reports 24,646 backlinks for us and shows the first 3,510.
And yet, we have no complaints. Our pages at Google Watch rank very well in Google searches.
The fact that IE goes straight to MS Search when a site can't be found (usuallt my dodgy typing) is only a small reason to change browsers.
I started using Netscape 7 a while ago for tabbed browsing and to see how it was going generally, especially compatability with the SAP stuff I do
Then I discovered firebird 0.6 (mozilla) and the earth moved.
Our firm's slow exchange based web mail takes 2 secs not 120, no dodgy MS data exchanges in the background
Plug-ins google bar, slashzilla feed bar, quicknote, download status bar, RSS reader, macro editor and they are just the ones I have installed in the last week
Type "about:config" in the status bar and see the world open up.
My main gripe is that I am still trying to crash it, God I feel nostalgic for IE
Stopping myself...Abort (core dumped)
Well, that seems telling to me! There isn't enough web crawling from MSNBOT to justify a search engine, from what I've seen. I see _way_ more traffic from the IBM almaden web bot (945 visits), for example.
Of course, this begs the question: who is doing the web crawling for MSN? I find it hard to believe that MSNBOT is the main crawler. Today, for example I found girafabot in my logs. A visit to their web site shows an association with MSN..
You can change the default search engine (with some trouble) but does anyone know how to remove this "friendly/wrong/deceptive" message appearing in the status bar when performing a Address-Bar search?
Yes, a solution would make my life a little more complete.
But just wait for the next version of Windows, and I'm sure they will have (their own) internet-search embedded in their OS. And after some years users won't know any other method of searching. Only unix/mac users would still use Google. -Filik.
When you do a search for the term " search engine" on google, Google.com comes back in 7th place. If google is going to pretend to be modest, it should at least be realistic and not rank excite and lycos above itself. .. HA!
If its anything as 'fair and balanced' as Fox News, I sure know ill be on board.
If the dollar is an "I owe you nothing", then the Euro is a "Who owes you nothing." - Doug Casey
Searching search.msn.com for "linux" will really highlight the weakness of MSN's search features -- the results are actually supplied by three different companies, then stitched together.
MSN provides up to five "featured" sites for a search phrase, usually to companies that have marketing relationships with MSN (like Amazon or eBay).
Overture gets to throw three "sponsored" sites at the top of every page of results, so these are companies who bid to be shown for a particular search term.
LookSmart provides the "directory" results. Of course, you get into the LookSmart directory by paying a fee to have your URL(s) associated with certain (a) certain search phrase(s). In the case of a search for "linux", you have to wade through 400+ directory results before you get to...
"Web" results, which are provided by Inktomi. Inktomi's engine collects URLs in one of two ways: through a regular crawl of the Web (like any search engine), and through a fee-based "paid inclusion" program where companies can submit their sites through a direct XML feed into the Inktomi index.
At least, that's the way it works for now. Given that both Inktomi and Overture have been bought by Yahoo!, there's very little chance that Microsoft wants MSN to fatten a competitor's coffers. Microsoft's moving as fast as they can to get their own technology in shape to replace the outside vendors. But MSN Search isn't powered by Microsoft quite yet.
the #4 result of a msn search for linux is a microsoft.com page Migrating From Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP.
Can anyone else comfirm that www.microsoft.com is down?
Here is what I get:
Service Unavailable
The server is temporarily unable to service your request. Please try again later.
Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.
Makes you wonder if doing a search for Slashdot.com here would return goatse.cx as the first result.
Don't Panic!
Really, you don't enjoy spreading FUD? How about that comment about Microsoft funding SCO's lawsuit. I hope your Buddhism isn't revoked when your inner spirit finds out that you aren't"...undertaking the precept of abstaining from false speech."
And for the record, there are plenty of folks who hate Linux enough to set up a website without any help from Microsoft. Can you not think of any reasons to dislike Linux? The RTFM attitude, the "end-luser" attitude, the "it works for me" mentality? The Linux crowd loves to feel picked on, like they are some suffering minority, and anything wrong in the world is caused by Microsoft. Surely, I must also be a Microsoft employee since I don't like Linux and speak of it in public?
they use the following strategy:
1) Provide accurate, relevant search results that do not include paid placements and other marketing crap.
2) Provide a clearly separated list of paid placements and marketing crap to pay your bills and make profit.
3) Make sure the user interface is simple and free of marketing jape.
Or you can try the 1999 method and be irrelevent:
1) mix paid placements with results.
2) provide more paid placements than search results.
3) fill your page with 10000 links to buy stuff and read the news.
4) become a content portal of choice instead of a search engine.
-- $G
As a mac user who just so happens to live with a tablet pc now, there are two pieces of software i cannot live without. These are... ta da: TabletPlanner by Franklin, and the Google toolbar. I used to just try and type in a url thinking i might just get it. but with Explorer, i get sent to MSN hell with a listing of top Microsoft approved sites... mostly MSN sites. It makes me want to chuck! There was an interview with a Googleman who wondered why people would type in a url as a search... Here's your answer. Please Steve! It's called a TabletPCeee. Very nifty stuff, and the handwriting recognition is actually good--unlike my beloved Newton that you led to the slaughter. And, please don't bother unless you can get Franklin-Covey on board.
It appears that only Linux and Apple deserve this speicial treatment. IBM and SUN do not; their search results seem to come back fairly clean.
o ft ware&FORM=SMCRT
u rity&FORM =SMCRT
They also missed a trick with Java and Compilers, both of which I would have thought they'd've gamed to their benefit. Also, middleware and distributed computing.
However, "business software" is a beaut:
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=business+s
the first page is nearly only Microsoft. Way to go! Monopolies are us!
Even better:
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=sec
You could almost *profile* microsoft's obsessions, vanities and insecurities with this method. You just need to shape your business case to attack their weaknesses! Excellent!
h
Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious
This has been one of the oldest tricks in the book in search engine land. Searching an edited search engine for the name of a competitor will always lead to a half-hearted results page. Of course, as Google has set the trend with automated web crawling this has quieted down, but even Google has been known to intentionally throw in an easter egg of a result page on queries for its competition.
Afterall, who in their right mind would need to use Yahoo! to look for Lycos. Ask Jeeves a silly question and he will return you a silly answer...
If Microsoft wants to compete and beat Google then the results of a search will have to be relevant. If they are not, then people will continue to use Google.
Well that not the sort of thing to worry about as far as Microsoft goes. At first the searches would be just as 'relavent' as Google, but if competition subsides and MS becomes the dominant player, THEN MS can start whoring their search engine for their own purposes. It's the typical MS strategy and people fall for it time and time again. Once they have they have market dominance and start to screw customers, people start to yern for the good ol days when there was competition and they could go to one of the other products if they didn't like Microsoft. Instead they have no choice but to eat out of Microsoft's hands, and they still can't see that it was their own short sighted decisions that led them down that road in the first place.
heheh what a buncha moronzez
http://tech.msn.com/software/OS/Linux/
muahahahah, microsloth sux even more than linsux.
> --help
rm -- --help
You're welcome.
There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
-- David D. Friedman
If you have to ask whether Microsoft.Anything is "objective",
Then you will NEVER understand MS.
M$ == Assumed.Evil-avoid-at-all-costs
(Disclaimer: I believe MSNBC has a fair amount of objectivity in their news reporting, but that's about it.)
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
About once a week, I recommend someone use Google to search for something. More and more people are learning abou Google, though they have to learn about it ... it's not the default search engine even with Mozilla. (Netscape's search is, and I'm not complaining.)
In the long run having MSN as the default search engine for IE users, and obscuring the alternatives, is the obvious plan for Microsoft.
Keep in mind: MSN doesn't have to be good, it just has to be good enough.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
True, but version 5 and 6 still suck. It has something to do with their bizare goals. They are not in business to make a better browser, GUI, search engine or anything like that. They are in business to make money and they pervert their program's functionality to achieve that any way they can. So, M$'s GUI is sold like a billboard to the highest biders, their OS forces depencence on M$ servers, M$'s browser pushes whatever M$ feels like, Windoze updater breaks unix compatibility and their search engine delivers a message. Microsoft makes things do what it wants them to do, not what their custormers want.
A search for Linux cancer is instructive. Someone just reading the story summaries would conclude that The Register and O'Riely think Linux and the GPL are bad. Additionally, the casual reader would conclude that Linux vendors are going out of business and that Paladium is "clever". These quotes are so targeted and numerous that it must be intentional. I'll quote what it produced because, M$ is known to change things like this:
The more I look at that list, the more respect I have for the designers of that search engine. It's brilliantly able to force the Microsoft message into even the most hostile of mouths. Ha, they call me a troll and put atribute words to me I never wrote. Compare that to the results Google gives, which looks more like what the user would want to see. Microsoft is evil and this is what an evil search engine looks like. Oh well, thats one search engine I never used before and will never use again. I also don't read or watch MSNBC news, yes, they suck too.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
They must have a full time Linux correspondent, eh? :)
.02
cLive ;-)
-- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
I never thought I'd see the day where Slashdot linked to Linux Sucks.
Sigs are like bumper stickers.
Even a search of "Google" turns up "Search the Internet: Find it on the Web with MSN Search." as the number 2 result (after www.google.com, of course).
This side up.
Although MSN would have you believe that thier search feature is a service offered to users, it is clearly a marketing tool from end to end.
In order to be listed at MSN, you must deal with Looksmart, a company that touts itself as "the global leader in paid inclusions". In other words, Microsoft's MSN Search is not in the business of helping you find what you are looking for, but the business of making sure you go where thier customers want you to go.
Google, on the other hand is a search company, that specialized in search technologies, for your corporate intranet or for your web page before they added advertising, first, to thier search page and later to your own page.
While there is no doubt that Google Advertising is a large part of thier revenue, the success of Google Adverts is due to thier apropriateness to the viewer of the page. This appropriateness is only possible if there is an attempt to keep the pagerank formula somewhat objective.
IMHO, Google's business model is the stronger, because they are not attempting the impossible task of keeping the viewer while simultaneously attempting to manipulate him (like MSN is), and the advertising model that Google has created is the only advertising that I would allow on a page of my own.
Read, L
I am a huuuge Google fan. The Google toolbar is a gift from god. Imagin my dismay when a Google search for
new york department of motor vehicles
turned up with bogus results! This was right after reading an artical about how Microsoft planned to beat Google at its own game by developing a superior search engine. I jokingly said "MSN Search SUUUUCCKS now" then proceeded to copy paste that query into MSN. IT CAME UP FIRST RESULT!!
I was devistated...
http://brandonbloom.name
About Featured Sites results
Featured Sites are links that MSN Search editors believe are likely to be particularly relevant and useful. These sites are chosen from ones published by MSN affiliates, partners, sponsors, and advertisers, as well as other sites proven to be especially popular among our users. Featured Sites that best match your search words are drawn from:
Note
Depending on the search words you type, Featured Sites results may not display for all searches.
--------
Isn't it interesting how 4 of the 6 sources in the list are MSN sites? And the first one is "news in entertainment, sports, business, and politics". How much do you want to bet that they use MSN news sources for those too?
In network television, a strong lead-in can give even the crappiest show good ratings. Microsoft has a large chunk of MSN and MSIE users that never bother to replace their starting pages. The (sub)average user has to choose between using MSN's search which is already in front of them, or going someplace else.
Additionally, MSIE has (last I checked) MSN searches tied into the address bar by default. Though I beleive the search engine is configurable, still this is a massive lead-in.
MSIE continues to dominate the browser market, and this gives them significant influence if not control over the choices their users make.
Furthermore.. google's longterm operation depends upon profitability. This profitability comes from advertising. MS is a daunting giant compared to google, and can potentially offer it's advertisers exposure on a much wider network. Google can only offer so much. If google had to begin using banner advertisements and pop-ups and what-not, would you still use it?
Does anyone know exactly how MSN Search works?
... without an explicit sinister agenda by Microsoft.
Suppose MSN ranking is based largely on the search queries / web-surfing of MSN.com users?
Given the presumption that Windows enthusiasts and users predominantly make-up MSN.com users, searches for "Linux," "open source," etc. would lead to the types of bias we see now
Moreover, as an earlier poster noted, a search on "Windows" reveals articles on the recent Virus/Worm problems as top results. This would also be consistent with the view that MSN Search is fueled largely by the actual web surfing/query behavior of MSN.com users.
While Microsoft is clearly a strategic firm, it's not clear that *everything* they do (or their products do) is meant to be strategic.
Full disclosure: I submit this article from a laptop primarily running Windows. But my main workstation runs Linux.
Q: How Objective Is Microsoft's Search?
A: Mu! Microsoft's Search is not a Search Engine.
When in doubt, go to the library. - Ron Weasley in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Whatcha gonna do then?
Using google's link feature (which admittedly, is broken, as others have pointed out), it would appear that sites are more likely to link to MSN sites other than the msn.com front page.
Fpr examle, searching for link:www.msn.com returns 51 results, but searching for link:www.msn.com/search returns 147,000 results.
Pundits expressed cautious optimism regarding this new move, saying "This will take the uncertainty out of worm propagation on the Internet. And that can only be considered a good thing."
they see what users are doing, (using other people's sofware and innovations of course,) and launch something that they will include on their desktop for "free."
I thing that this should be easy enough to kill though through the anti-trust (ha ha ha ha, like M$ gives a shit about the law,) because its something external to the operating system and M$ should not be allowed to put it on their desktop AT ALL as anything else than a legitimate install process. They should be forced to compete like everybody else.
The alternative is to have the systems report bogus pages and broken to M$ web crawlers and spiders to shut them out of the useful information while leaving anybody else's search-engines go through untrameled.
After a while, people will get the hint "Wanna find shit, use NOT M$ because M$ search engine sucks and gives you a ton of broken links."
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
That used to be the main demographic.
Now the demographic is technical elitists, and most are uninformed (look at the silliness and false claims that gets modded up most of the time). Every "M$" post is another link in the chain of evidence. There is very rarely anything objective around these parts. It's SCO, anime, ham radio, or "M$" articles these days.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Congratulations for taking an intended joke seriously. You fill me with awe, you veritable joy pendant, you.
"Sufferin' succotash."
# Latest News: microsoft
Microsoft warns of critical IE flaws (MSNBC - Aug. 21)
Microsoft Windows: Insecure by Design (Washington Post - Aug. 24)
Microsoft finds security flaws (Boston Globe - Aug. 22)
Even here my posts are censored whenever I mention some touchy things (for example, when criticizing the US). This, or that Slash code needs a serious revamping.
Why on Earth would Microsoft be fair? Because they appreciate competition? Hah!
Why would you be surprised? Microsoft, that fair play advocate, suddenly made to look bad? Poor them!
radsoft.net
I am not attached to labels. I have shot the buddha on the road. Symbols and dogma are not important, only spreading good karma.
Now, back to the topic: saying that MS is funding the SCO lawsuit isn't spreading neither Fear, Uncertainty nor Doubt. It is a fact: as the lawsuit was announced, MS bought a totally unnecessary Unix license for quite a large sum of money. I cannot say that they are directly funding the lawsuit, however the timing was highly suspicious, especially considering that MS would greatly benefit from SCO winning the case (which seems less likely every day). You may not have the same opinion as I have regarding this, however you cannot prove me wrong - and I do believe that to be the truth, therefore I am indeed abstaining from flase speech.
The RTFM attitude, the "end-luser" attitude, the "it works for me" mentality?
Actually, in the two years since I've started using Linux, I've nearly always found other Linux users to be helpful and polite. Not once was I ever told to RTFM. On the contrary, the great spirit of cooperation and general helfulness has been one of the things that has kept me with Linux.
Surely, I must also be a Microsoft employee since I don't like Linux and speak of it in public?
Not necessarily. But I am curious as to why you have such hostility towards Linux...If you do not have a personal stake in MS, why do you feel compelled to defend them even though they have shown themselves to be capable of such shady behavior? You aggressively attack anyone suggesting that MS might be involved...without offering any other counter-arguments than personal insults. In fact, you display the same kind of bad behaviour that you accuse Linux advocates of...however, speaking out of personal experience, I've seen much more personal insults coming out of anti-Linux posters than from pro-Linux ones (who generally aim their attacks at MS, not at invidual Windows users).
In other words, no, I do not spread FUD. But those anti-Linux web sites are. Why aren't you concerned with those? Oh, I forgot, you're not really interested in fair and balanced debate, just in tarnishing the free OS's name and the reputation of those who use it...
Reminder: find a new sig
If you search "windows sucks" on msn india, you get "www.linuxsucks.com" as the top link with the description "Linux Web page offering a wide range of information on the operating system including comparisons between Linux and Windows NT."
What a load of bullshit.
Your examination is both superficial and incomplete. The first seven or so links on the Microsoft site are adverts and sites that want your money, ignoring them for purposes of comparison is kind of like ignoring the first seven hours of your day. Secondly, the choice of sites and the words used are highly derogotory and liable to give the user a bad impresion. Notice that Microsoft treat's itself better than Red Hat when you search on Microsoft. The general page is put before cheasy adverts and the support page. The case for Linux is reversed, throwing the user at the problems after first, but only after the MSN Linux page. Microsoft treats Windows well too and, of course, does not mention Debian, the Free Software Foundation or anything smacking of Freedom. For a detailed analysis of the wording of Microsoft's summaries listed see this earlier post and please put down the crack pipe - Microsoft's search engine is no where near a match for Google and never will be.
I never believed they would ever quit resorting to name calling, did you? When it backfired on them, they have shifted to these indirect tactics, using proxies and now they have morphed their search engine into a very impressive double speak generator.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
On second thought, your own post is great evidence of malice. Calling Amazon shit, they fixed your MS8 insult already, and burrying gnu under 14 other sites is really rotten. Yes, there really were 14 other sites not www.gnu.org on top of that, the first in German. The average reader would never get to the GNU project through Microsft, despite having looked correctly. This is not a result that would come up through any reasonable ranking scheme or even randomly.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Obviously, a site expressing an opinion is not objective.
:)
The real question here is, how objective is the parent?
I can't think of a good sig...
Why should MS be required to provide objective information about its competitors? It's not like Slashdot or any Linux-oriented news sites, let alone the web pages run by companies and groups that make Linux software and distributions are even close to providing fair and accurate information about Microsoft products.
As much as I love to MS bash (and I do--I really do), I also love to play "Devil's Advocate" because I like to argue, but also because I feel it fosters more interesting discussion.
With that in mind: isn't it possible that these other searches turn up screwy results for Linux simply because they suck? Or maybe because not many people use them. Or at least, if people do use them, maybe they don't use them to search for Linux all that often. Remember Hanlon's Razor.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
The third item Microsoft search leads to is a page at tech.msn.com. Check out the survey at the tech.msn.com homepage -- "Was your home or work computer infected by a virus in the last 30 days?" -- currently 50% answered "yes". Frightening.
Email: slashdot3@FreeMars.org (Address will be abandoned when it gets spam.)
I had to try the classic google. I found the second result most interesting.
Nobody beats netscape in the area of objective search: try searching for 'hotmail' at netscape.com. First result is ... Netscape Mail. They claim it is 'powered by Google', but obviously they "tweak" google results to promote their own and probably other's paid services.
(I've discovered this recently when using internet kiosk with netscape browser).
MSDOS: 20+ years without remote hole in the default install
On google you get the expected 'AOL Instant Messenger' site, on Microsoft you get .
TADA
5 links to MSN Messenger.
Fantastic. No, they are not a monopoly..
What are you in business to do?
while true; do /dev/null http://search.msn.com/results.asp?q=linux;
wget -O
done
Am I the only one that's shocked there's a "Linux sucks" website?? Maybe I've just been brainwashed by /. but I figured everyone loved linux...
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
You r teh man/!!1!4!!
These are the results I see now:
Latest News: microsoft
WashPost: Microsoft's big role on campus (MSNBC - Aug. 25)
Microsoft's Big Role on Campus (Washington Post - Aug. 25)
Microsoft finds security flaws (Boston Globe - Aug. 22)
> > They are not in business to make a better browser, GUI, search engine or anything like that. They are in business to make money...
> What are you in business to do?
There's a difference between doing business to "make the world a better place" and being interested in world-aspects only if they relate in some way to your wallet.
MSN Search: Linux
"Red Hat 9.0 is a boon for those who already use it, but it's too expensive to warrant a switch from Windows"
uh ?
Mircosoft has identified Linux as a 'threat', and will do anything they can to discourage people from migrating from their product.
Being a computer consultant, I have found that the vast majority of people I encounter already know Microsoft's software is slow, expensive, and a huge security risk. Unfortunatly their mission critical apps require it. I must add however, about 95% of them have their home page set to Google, or Google News, and many of those aren't even using IE even though its installed. Many are using Opera.
I have to say most of us have no love of Microsoft from a technical standpoint, but they make us money.
This is Microsoft's MO, and I doubt it will change any time soon. Consider who is backing SCO in their charge to cause problems in the Linux world...
twitter, it is very interesting what you said above, about the design of the search engine making results more Microsoft-friendly.
That made me wonder what would happen if I put in my own name. The second result on the list is:
Windows XP Shows the Direction Microsoft is Going.
www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft.htm
My article discusses how Windows XP has been designed in such a way that it is adversarial toward the interests of Microsoft's customers. Clearly, if the seach engine is skewing results, it makes mistakes. But, notice something: The source code for that link says my name is "span class='hit' ". [I changed the punctuation to make it readable.]
The 15th result, at the bottom of the first page, is the same article translated to Spanish:
Windows XP muestra la direccion que Microsoft esta tomando. Opiniones sobre Microsoft.
www.hevanet.com/peace/microsoft-es.ht
The HTML source code of this result says "span class='d' ". The result says "Opiniones sobre Microsoft", which, translated from Spanish, means, "Opinions about Microsoft".
So, apparently someone at Microsoft saw the article and classified it. Maybe the person who did the classifying did not have the technical knowledge necessary to realize that the article discusses abusive activities by Microsoft.
Notice in the source code of that result that the link is a link to MSN, not a direct link to my article. So, apparently the search engine is tracking visits to the Spanish version of the article. It is not clear to me the meaning of this.
But, notice something: The source code for that link says my name is "span class='hit' ".
[...] The HTML source code of this result says "span class='d' ".
[...] So, apparently someone at Microsoft saw the article and classified it.
Here are two relevant lines from the CSS file that the search result pages use:
The full CSS file is here.
You made a search on "Michael Jennings". As a result, every occurrence of the words "Michael Jennings" are emphasized with bold using the class "hit". The link to the Spanish version of your article doesn't doesn't show your name. That explains why "hit" is not used there.
The class "d" is used to display the text at 12 pixels, which makes it impossible to use my browser's text size settings. (Here is one of Microsoft's abuses.)
Looking at the HTML and the CSS, it seems that class names are not clear because Microsoft tries to save space by making them short. (Also, the HTML has no spacing and no carriage returns.)
Microsoft has a long, long history of taking incredibly cheap shots to maintain their monopoly. Whenever a competing corporation does something innovative, Microsoft will release an inferior version of it, then mock the smaller, weaker competition. This just happens to be another variation on a theme. Now that Apple's future is starting to look brighter, particularly with the G5 being released, Microsoft is trying to hold onto their large audience by making sure they can never leave.
I just tried this on NINEMSN (Australia), and got the following 4 results 1st.
"linux" - Buy & Sell @ eBay Australia (ADD)
1. Linux Australia
2. Linux Hamradio Applications & Utilities
3. Breakthrough Linux
4. Linux Australia - Linux Ext2fs.... (Article)
In fact all of the entries (Bar the ADD at the top) were directly Linux related.
Must be a regional thing.
Third of Nine (Sydney)
linuxsucks.com reads like a "*BSD is dying" troll on /.
you know, it is the Vole after all..
msn search also does a load on apple. They didn't seem to hit it nearly as hard as linux, but when you search for apple, apple.com is the 10th on the list. In google, apple search comes up with apple.com as the first result.
1. Do MSN Search users really need to find MSN Search?
2. How could MSN Search gotten placed anywhere near that high using objective criteria. Sorry, that's a stupid question.
...Nothing interesting here. Just move along...
Thanks. It was 4 AM in the morning when I posted, and I didn't think of CSS. Can you tell me why it says "Opiniones sobre Microsoft", "Opinions about Microsoft"? That was how I initially became confused. That phrase is not in the article, either in the Spanish version or the English version. So, human looked at the article and classified it?
MSN returns furniture retailers.
Jeez, how dumb are people on here? There is a checkbox for searching from the address bar in the advanced tab of the Internet Options dialog. Just turn it off if it bugs you.
This MSN.com site seems to do exactly that: http://tech.msn.com/software/OS/Linux/
Because I don't agree to the EULA.
I'm an avid reader of Google news and sometimes I wonder if Google is doing a similar thing to Microsoft. It seems every day in Sci/Tech there is either a negative story about Microsoft or a positive one about Linux. Microsoft Windows has problems and does get a lot of negative press, but I don't think I've ever seen a positive article. This seems to reflect the views of the Google editors more than it does the online press at large.
MSN: "All your search are belong to us."
Congratulations for taking an intended joke seriously. You fill me with awe, you veritable joy pendant, you.
There are reasons why democracy does not work nearly as well as capitalism.
-- David D. Friedman
Microsoft is, when compared to humans; the Nazis of computers, there shall only be one OS. But resistance is not futile. It is profitable. More and more companies in these lean times are considering Linux, more secure and non-denomonational on the hardware.
Take business for example. Why not have your own super computer? With Linux it is easy to harness the thousands of mostly idle desktops to do something other than drive up the AC bill. Why not do the business analytics on the Linux OS?
Because of FUD and executive kick backs... but those that are enlightened run Linux.
MS bought a totally unnecessary Unix license for quite a large sum of money.
.however, speaking out of personal experience, I've seen much more personal insults coming out of anti-Linux posters than from pro-Linux ones (who generally aim their attacks at MS, not at invidual Windows users).
I agree the timing was suspicious - but MS does have unix tools, and they were probably just giving SCO a boost, which couldn't hurt them. But people have equated that action to a plot from the depth of Redmond to destroy Linux, and I at least haven't seen any other evidence.
You and I my friend have had exactly experiences here. Read at -1, and watch the flames and trolls that are spewed at MS / MS users for every possible thing. Comparisons to Satan are quite common.
I agree the timing was suspicious - but MS does have unix tools
True, but MS didn't need a Unix license for these tools. For one, the tools came out before MS got the license - if they had needed the license, they would have got it before releasing the product. Second, they may be Unix tools, but they are not an implementation of Unix - I doubt very much that they are reusing SysV code or other SCO properties.
they were probably just giving SCO a boost, which couldn't hurt them. But people have equated that action to a plot from the depth of Redmond to destroy Linux
Well, I don't think they're masterminding it, but the injection of cash certainly looked like material support for the legal fight.
You and I my friend have had exactly experiences here. Read at -1, and watch the flames and trolls that are spewed at MS / MS users for every possible thing.
Flaming MS is fine. It is after all a non-living entity, and as such has no feelings nor the ability to suffer. Personally attacking MS users is wrong - however in the heat of a flamewar these things can happen. But you're right, of course: there is rude behaviour on both sides of the fence. It just irks me to see people perpetrating the myth that only Linux advocates are guilty of rude behavior, when that is clearly not the case.
Peace.
Reminder: find a new sig
Try to search for "Internet" on Google, and voila: the first two sites to come up are "Microsoft" and "Internet Explorer Home Page".
Does this mean Google thinks M$==Internet?