Black Isle Studios Shuts Down Development

Zonk writes "RPGDot has a story up right now about the closing down of development at Black Isle Studios. The information comes from an unnamed Interplay source, who says 'Any time you see the [Black Isle] logo on a future product, know that no one who was associated with BIS actually worked on it', as well as a post by BIS employee Damien Foletto on the Interplay message boards, and a Blue's News story that adds: 'The non-announced [PC] title that the division was working on, Fallout 3 [aka Van Buren], has been 'shelved', to quote management.' BIS, you will be missed." Black Isle are particularly known for work on the Fallout series, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Comments

Nasty

[Goldberg's Pants]

This is the first developer shut down that has stunned me since Looking Glass (System Shock, the Thief series...) went under.

Why is it the good companies go under, but the crap ones live on?

Re:Nasty

[frankthechicken]

The good companies innovate, the bad ones copy success. Guess which one is more likely to succeed. Innovation is a risky business.

On a slightly related note, has there been a good business project management set-up in relation to the development of games? From everything I've seen and read about, the development seems so hodge-podge, it's remarkable any games succeed.

Re:Nasty

[tero]

Mostly because quality costs money. Putting a game through that one extra QA run probably means delaying the shipping date. Unfortunately the trend seems to be just that.. moving away from quality, towards 'assembly line' products (hopefully already licensed, so studios don't have to spend that much $$ on marketing). There are of course execptions (like the Baldurs Gate series and the Knights of the old Republic which do not fall into the 'license-and-ship' trap).
The gaming industry is more and more starting to feel like just another Hollywood branch. I wonder how long it takes before they'll start redoing old games, like they're doing with all old classic movies now?

Re:Nasty

[shione]

If you stand your ground and don't sell out, you get stamped on by those with more $$$.

This news saddens me too.

I'll miss you Black Isle. RIP with Looking Glass and Cavedog.

Re:Nasty

[narkotix]

like EA?

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the first developer shut down that has stunned me since Looking Glass (System Shock, the Thief series...) went under.

Why is it the good companies go under, but the crap ones live on?

I have a pirated copy of System Shock 2 and Fallout 2 on my shelf, that's why.

Individually it's not my fault but if enough people did it...

Needless to say, I've never felt worse about having pirated games and I would gladly dish out the price for both the old and the new game if I'd just get the sequels for the games I truly loved.

For what it's worth. Looking Glass, Black Isle Studios, I'm sorry.

Re:Nasty

[morganjharvey]

You ever notice how the companies that produce crappy products and survive are the ones who play dirty?
Unfortunately, the creative sorts who have fairly robust morals and ethics tend not to survive too often in today's business world. How many companies with crappy products can you name that have succeded primarily because they've flexed their muscles? I can name five in under 15 seconds, and I'm tired.
Unfortunately, "normal" business practise now seems to include fighting dirty, and it's usually at the expense of the final product. As much as I know people would hate to hear it, every big company does it. Look at Apple, Microsoft, IBM, SCO... Yes, some of them have released quality products, but none of them would really be where they are today without a little bullying. Apple used to be extremely litigious, IBM has done more than their share of strong arming, and I'm pretty sure that you can fill in the blanks for SCO and Microsoft.
But some of the "favorite" companies fight just as dirty. Perhaps a company should be expected to be able to heft its weight around in order to gain a respectable place in the market. It's not something that I necessarily agree with, but it seems like you can't really survive with out it.
There's my rant for the evening. I've officially been pointed me down the road towards depression thinking about this. :( -mo

Re:Nasty

[smithwis]

Apparently you don't own a gameboy advance.

Nintendo has managed to repackage all the old mario games for the snes and nes and sell them for new(almost identical to the originals). This time, they weren't cool about releasing all the games in one cartridge(ala Super Mario Allstars).

And Nintendo is not the only one doing things like this on the Gameboy.

Re:Nasty

[0x0d0a]

Why is it the good companies go under, but the crap ones live on?

My guess is that this is not the case (in particular). Game development houses tend to have awfully short lifetimes. They're often small. If developer Jones and Smith decide to move on to bigger and better things, there may not be much company left worth continuing with.

My guess is that you just notice when the good ones go out of business.

Try this. Dig out a bunch of old DOS games and try to locate the development houses that produced them. Some are still around -- id is still happily making games, for instance. A lot of them, however, are long, long gone.

Re:Nasty

[shione]

You can still get Thief 1+2 and System Shock 2 on budget label but whether any of that gets back to the original developers depends on what terms of contract they signed.

Thief 3 is currently underway by the Deus Ex 2 guys. A System Shock sequel is a bit finicky since the rights to it are with 3 different companies.

I can't find Fallout 1 or 2 new anywhere. I hope it get the budget treatment one day...

Re:Nasty

[pixel_bc]

> Why is it the good companies go under,
> but the crap ones live on?

Good companies don't always make games that sell. Furthermore, third-party developers are becoming extinct -- the publishers have no need for them as they build their own in-house teams.

They've gone away by no fault of their own, save not being acquired three years ago.

Re:Nasty

[instanto]

You cant pin the demise of Black Isle on piracy.

Poor Management, Xbox, Greed, Suits and Deadlines are probably the more likely reason.

And maybe because crappy games sell - while stellar games - for a smaller audience - do not sell as much, why should'nt they make a hack'n slash that will sell a million titles, instead of a RPG that will sell 100,000.

Re:Nasty

[Squozen]

Already happening.

http://www.princeofpersiagame.com/index.php

Re:Nasty

[blincoln]

You can still get Thief 1+2 and System Shock 2 on budget label but whether any of that gets back to the original developers depends on what terms of contract they signed.

Also, as much as I dislike Ziff-Davis, if you buy this month's Computer Gaming World ($8.99), you get the full version of Thief 2 (and Deus Ex) on the cover DVD.

Re:Nasty

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

Fallout 2, for OSX, is still selling on the shelves of the local AppleStores ( at full price too, I might add ). I bought it ages ago, and it is quite an enjoyable romp. Sad to see Van Buren won't see the light of day - I played through Fallout 1 back on Windows, and was looking to see where the franchise would go in the future.

YLFI

Re:Nasty

[thryllkill]

more than PoP, try:

Rygar
Defender
Pac-Man
Spy Hunter
Shinobi
Ninja Gaiden

the list of new games based on classic titles is growing everyday.

Re:Nasty

[arkanes]

I got Fallout 1 & 2 in a $5 dollar bundle (new) from a Best Buy or Circuit City or CompUSA or some similiar store. It was most depressing, because all the other games on the shelf in those bundles were things like Barbies Fabulous Bakeoff.

Re:Nasty

[hsa]

The gaming industry is more and more starting to feel like just another Hollywood branch. I wonder how long it takes before they'll start redoing old games, like they're doing with all old classic movies now?

They are redoing the old games. Just not the way you think of it (putting in them fancy new graphics and releasing them on same platform).

In gaming industry, they rerelease the games on new platform. Like Sonic Adventure went from DreamCast to every popular console today, with little or no changes. Like Space Invaders was rereleased with the same format. Like those "Classic XYZ collection" which comes packed with the same old games..

And very rarely they release the game with better graphics, but they have been doing that also. Like releasing SMB again on SNES or Bubble Bobble, but as you can see - these releases are old (in computer gaming sense) and nothing new here.

The point is, that is more easy to release classic games ported to new systems, like on joysticks . Why? Because there is a fanatic group of people out there who still thinks these games are cool. And I'm one of them.

Re:Nasty

[Ashran]

PoP: Sandy of time while at first very frustrating turns out to a great game after you get the dagger of time. (first objective)
The controls feel intuitive and with the ability to turn back time its a new kind of gameplay.

Give it a try

Re:Nasty

[BlameFate]

Bad example. PoP: Sands of Time is a stunning game, it has some of the most polished gameplay I've come across, and jaw-droppingly good visuals.

There's a good article on the development of the title at gamespot, here. And after Jordan Mechner saw the demo to approve the game (he owns the rights to the PoP name) he told the all-new deveelopment team "Guys, what I've just seen has reawakened the joy of making video games to me." So, yeah, good point but you couldn't have picked a more inappropriate example.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

"The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.."
Unknown

Re:Nasty

[rwise2112]

"The early worm get eaten by the bird"

Re:Nasty

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Hollywood has been remaking movies for a long time. Even Hitchcock remade his movies, but at least he was the one that did those, not some by-the-numbers director that never met him or anyone on the crew.

I suppose I can't think of any game remakes, most games seem to have an even shorter lifetime than movies, so people forget about the old ones quicker to the point that the name often doesn't matter any more. Nintendo has been rereleasing a lot of its N8 and N16 games to GBA now.

Re:Nasty

[calethix]

Don't forget about Sierra's reillustrated line. They only did it with their earliest games (e.g. King's Quest 1, Space Quest 1, Hero's Quest 1 and a few others).

They basically took some of their old adventure games done with ega graphics only and updated them to full 256 color vga and better sound. The story was exactly the same but sometimes with a few extras and minor changes.

I can't think of any games off the top of my head that have been remakes quite at that level.

Re:Nasty

[decairn]

The gaming audience is just as fickle as the Hollywood audiences. All over the new release on week one then next to nothing on week two. There are consequently many failures in the gaming world, ever-selling titles like Half-Life or Everquest are few and far between leaving the prospect of any gaming company doing consistently well between game launches very tenuous.

Re:Nasty

[the Man in Black]

To be fair, Fallout is itself a remake of Wasteland, itself an excellent game.

Re:Nasty

[Andrea_from_Arg]

"... with the ability to turn back time its a new kind of gameplay"

Seems like you didn't play Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask :)

Re:Nasty

[jackbird]

Take a look at the mobile phone games in the US - QBert, Pitfall (!), etc.

Re:Nasty

[nadadogg]

Well, as a primarily windows user(at home), the one thing I refuse to pirate is games, because I fully support that industry, and don't feel like it is trying to screw me over. I won't even get my friends to burn me a copy of the new game they just bought, I'll just get the demo and give it a try. In fact, I bought the Fallout 1/2 bundle about 4 months ago off of amazon after reading about it, despite the fact that I could have easily pirated it from the net.

Re:Nasty

[the_mad_poster]

Too true, unfortunately.

Planescape: Torment was an incredible game. The whole thing revolved around story, not combat, and you didn't directly interact in combat unless you were casting spell or using an item. You were lucky if you got to Level 15 with the Nameless One by the end of the game. While it was important to level up and boost traits, it was not your driving motivation.

Compare this to Diablo 2. Diablo 2 has one objective - go kill monsters. There's a hair-thin storyline to move you from wilderness to wilderness, but the whole point was to get more gold, new stuff, and higher levels. It was certainly fun, but it was far less satisfying to get another level up because you had killed yet another wraith of some sort than the P:T way of doing things where you could get huge exp through intelligent (and sometimes very bizarre) discussions. The game was so beautfully imaginative that it almost seemed like combat wasn't even necessary at times.

Incidentally, to see some pretty cool fireworks in P:T, launch Level 1 magic missiles, Ignus's tongues of flame, and Dak'kon's reign of anger all at the same time. That'll take down almost any normal enemy without resistances in a heartbeat (it's great against the Carceri guards), plus it looks really cool.

Re:Nasty

[slaker]

I bought both in a retail package at K-mart about 6 months ago. I think it was $8.

Re:Nasty

[lordgarth]

I spend way too much money on software including original copies of SS,SS2,FO&FO2, but I don't for a minute believe that this guy's (and others) pirated copies caused this. It's pure bottom line thinking without any real regard for true innovation or even the long term bottom line.

Re:Nasty

[the_mad_poster]

I'll bite, but only because you've been modded +2 Insightful instead of -1 Troll like you should've been.

Care to share your damning evidence of all this rampant piracy with the rest of us? I just built a Windoze box for gaming and I own 2 Black Isle titles right now that I purchased at full price: Planscape: Torment and Baldur's Gate. I also owned Fallout, again, purchased at full price, at one time, but have since traded it to someone else. I own exactly 0 titles that I've copied - legally or otherwise (though, I threw out my jewel case for Starcraft which had my CD Key on it, so I had to get a keygen for it - but I still own the actual CD and manual). I've never copied a game for anyone else.

Re:Nasty

[JonGretar]

Well... BIS was just horrible in the end. All the good guys working there are gone a long time ago.

And their recent projects have just been badly designed and way not original. And althoug they had their name on some interesting products. Majoroty of it were developed by other companies.

BIS had run it's time. It's time to scatter the ashes.

Re:Nasty

[rsheridan6]

I recall Black Isle releasing a buggy and unusable Fallout 2 (it was a great game a few months later when patches came out but on release it was crap). I don't think excessive QA was their problem.

Re:Nasty

[tmark]

I wonder how long it takes before they'll start redoing old games, like they're doing with all old classic movies now?

That's easy. It will take exactly as long as it takes for the gaming companies to realize people will buy them. Don't knock Hollywood for spewing out remakes of old movies and 70's TV shows and comics, because they're giving the viewing public what they want (witness the success of Mission Impossible, Charlie's Angels, Spiderman, Batman, X-Men, Ocean's Eleven, etc.)

Re:Nasty

[glenrm]

Bioware, Id, Epic are still arround to name a few, also Bioware and developers from I think Troika games all worked with Interplay to make the Baldur's Gate and Fallout games, it was not a Black Isle only effort. Still the content for the IceWind Dale games using the Bioware created Baldur's Gate engine were excellent games with great graphics and voice acting. It is a shame that Fallout 3 will not see the light of day from in a Black Isle way. The quote that it is a console world is inaccurate, Bioware is doing great with NeverWinter Nights and I think Doom III will sell well on the PC.

Re:Nasty

[samsmithnz]

You're right, as all Game Development is so new and groundbreaking, it seems that all gaming projects make mistakes. There are good articles in the features section of GamaSutra.com. Check it Out.

Re:Nasty

[InThane]

It's more of a spiritual successor than a remake. While they shared the same geographic region and the post-apocolyptic environment, the stories are pretty different.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

this kind of thing is very prevalent in paper, pencil, and dice RPGs. we in the game master circles call em 'power gamers'. its such a buzzkill when you have a really intricate storyline built up and a very rich world created just to have it all ignored by most of your players because all they want is more plusses on their weapons and armor, or more artifacts that boost the characters badassness levels off the scales but have no ties into the story lines.

put another way: most of the players ive GM'd would read Gaiman's Sandman and be like, "well, i guess it was cool, but there wasnt enough action," then read x-men and be like "wow juggernaut is cool cause he's big and hits things hard"

its not intended to be condescending, but i think the majority of males are interested in more size, more strength, more toughness, more badassness. mebbe its a testosterone thing *shrug*

Re:Nasty

[phorm]

Commander Keen, Wolf3d, Doom. All the major games I played were ID software. The only other name that I can think of at the moment is Apogee and a few others that made shareware. Can anyone else name some popular game-dev companies of old?

Re:Nasty

[kalirion]

You were lucky if you got to Level 15 with the Nameless One by the end of the game. While it was important to level up and boost traits, it was not your driving motivation.

Hmmm, by the time my TNO beat Planescape: Torment, he was at least level 30 in each of the 3 classes. Guess I'm a Diablo 2 player at heart after all :/.

Re:Nasty

[badasscat]

The good companies innovate, the bad ones copy success. Guess which one is more likely to succeed. Innovation is a risky business.

On a slightly related note, has there been a good business project management set-up in relation to the development of games? From everything I've seen and read about, the development seems so hodge-podge, it's remarkable any games succeed.

Your two statements are both complementary and contradictory. There are two facets to the game industry - independent developers, and developers either under contract to a publisher or owned by one. Independent developers are often the ones credited with being "innovative" (though in my experience in the industry, they're no more or less innovative than developers under contract or the publishers themselves), but they also often float along without direction, developing games when they feel like it based on an arbitrary set of criteria. Occasionally, great games come out of this sort of model. More often, you end up with complete garbage - the kinds of games that get 15-50% reviews in PC Gamer Magazine, which seems to be the bulk of their reviews these days... (and generally, those are deserved scores.)

So indie developing is haphazard, yes. But Black Isle wasn't an indie developer; they were presumably doled out projects, and given set deadlines and guidelines by Interplay. Apparently, they didn't take too well to this, as they lost $20 million this year alone. Well, that's not very fair - I suppose they had some licensing issues, and there could be other reasons for their losing money, but there's this whole "blame the publisher" thing going on out there that I don't think is very fair either. This is a business, and Black Isle wasn't making money for the business right now. If they were an indie that burned through that kind of cash they'd be just as out of business right now.

Anyway, publisher-sponsored development is not at all haphazard. Yes, many publishers stick with established franchises and genres, but all of them have a certain percentage of development set aside for new games. That percentage varies per publisher. New games at publishers like these are guided along by experienced veterans of the process - which doesn't guarantee success, but it at least (generally) guarantees a certain level of competence and polish to a new game from a large publisher. (Pikmin and Animal Crossing are two examples of this on the console side - Rise of Nations and MS Train Simulator would be examples on the PC side.)

PC and console game development is a bit different in that console game development is almost all publisher sponsored, contracted, or owned. That is honestly one of the reasons why the console game industry is in better shape than the PC game industry, and I will never for a second believe anyone that says there are fewer innovative games on consoles than on PC. Anyone who says that does not know anything about the console game industry or the games available today. (Don't mistake what's on the best-seller lists for the entire catalog of what's out there - consumers determine best-seller lists, but publishers know it's in their best long-term interests to develop new franchises even if they don't succeed short-term.)

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

this might have been the long term plan a decade ago

While separate developers (third party) and even Sony with its own published titles pushed to port as much as possible, Nintendo is like a jealous mouth-foaming dog over an empty food dish. Regardless of the legality or ethics of piracy, Nintendo simply ignored this very real market factor and didn't take advantage of the interest that was enough for many consumers to buy a ported game, but not enough to buy the console.

The re-releasing of the old games on those swipe cards for the GBA is a great business move, but yet I still wonder how much MORE Nintendo would have made had they or someone they licensed, turned out ports for other systems including PC.

As for the more general statement comparing video-gaming to the movie industry, it is much more "there" than the poster might want to know.

As is pointed out repeatedly in situations as these, vote with your money! If you buy a game that has a fantastic candy coating (graphics, sound, and even licensed themes and characters) and it blows chunks with gameplay then understand you just did your part to set that type of game and thus that type of game-making as the standard. BTW, as there are those whose emotional control is not in check... please remember that graphics are very important in games as a method of immersion and things like detail can be integral to the actual gameplay itself (e.g. puzzles and problem solving). However, graphics is just one external aspect that is often used as chrome. Remember chrome coating on things like refrigerators? No, the chrome did NOT enhance the functionality of the system but it was a great ploy.

There is a market out there for immersive, high quality games that use the advancements in technology to aid in their play and will be bought by careful, informed consumers. The rest will still go to the spoiled children and others who buy in bulk with little care for results. Remember that the producers do not make up the majority of the "market equation," but the consumers do. Stop bitching and show some fiscal responsibility and restraint. (that is generic and not intended to either parent post)

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

I know what you mean, but I don't have a copy of either on my shelf. In fact, this is the first time I've heard of them. It looks like I am a lost sale as well. Sorry BIS.

Re:Nasty

[Lathan]

Epic, New World Computing, SirTECH, Origin Systems, Westwood

The first two are still in business, thanks to Unreal and Might & Magic respectively. I think SirTECH (makers of Wizardry) went out just recently, while Origin and Westwood have been absorbed by Electronic Arts.

Re:Nasty

[CFTM]

That's why I love Blizzard, WarCraft 2 was the first game I bought from them and I absolutely loved it. I probably played it for three years ... good ole Kali. Anyhow, they manage to fend the publisher off and always delay products at least eighteen months but what comes off the line has been worth purchasing. What other company releases a patch on a game that changes the entire way its played, adding new challenges and goals while not charging people who already own the product a penny? {1.10 Patch for Diablo}.

Re:Nasty

[wideBlueSkies]

>>The gaming industry is more and more starting to feel like just another Hollywood branch. I wonder how long it takes before they'll start redoing old games, like they're doing with all old classic movies now?

You mean like this ?

Re:Nasty

[the_mad_poster]

Dude... just drop the mouse and back away. :)

Seriously.. I waltzed through the game without trouble (well, the Fiend from Morridor's box gave me a bit of a hassle) only reaching Level 17 / Mage and Level 2 Warrior. I can't imagine how much time it would require to build that kind of a character up.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

Can anyone else name some popular game-dev companies of old?

Electronic Arts and Activision were both doing well last time I checked.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

publisher-sponsored development is not at all haphazard.

rofl great troll

Re:Nasty

[edwdig]

How about Resident Evil? They've redone it so many times. There were several remakes with slightly more features for the PS1, and then there's the GameCube version, which is the same game again but with better graphics and slightly better voice acting.

Re:Nasty

[garibald]

Actually, copying previously successful games has its own pitfalls. One of the reasons that companies like Acclaim are doing so poorly is that they never innovate; they simply look at the current top ten selling games and say, lets do one of those. Often companies like that end up missing out on the original target audience for any number of reasons, including the fact that those people already own the original game and don't want to pay another 50 USD for a substandard clone. There's already so many titles on the shelves right now, most people don't even hear about 60-80% of the games out there.

As for Black Isle, I think their main problem is that they focused on the PC platform, which sadly isn't nearly as large a market as the consoles. The problem of piracy in consoles is so much smaller than PC that it's laughable, and in fact, the casual gamers that are the backbone of the console market aren't going to have the know-how or gumption to figure out how to copy games.

Really, I feel saddened by the lose of such a great company and the Fallout franchise. Hopefully the main players in the studio can pick themselves up and create a situation like Warren Spector did after Looking Glass Studios was shut down.

Re:Nasty

[0111 1110]

Hopefully the main players in the studio can pick themselves up and create a situation like Warren Spector did after Looking Glass Studios was shut down.

And what situation would that be? Ion Storm? Hardly a worthy succesor to LGS. Ion Storm is mostly an action game developer. Although, that is essentially what LGS was trying to become (that's where the money is) before their fall.

Let us not forget that the project that turned into Thief was originally intended to be a CRPG, a sort of sequel-in-spirit to Ultima Underworld II. Many fans of the Ultima Underworld series wanted to see them create an actual Ultima Underworld III, but LGS cited licensing issues with Origin. Origin was not interested in another unprofitable Underworld title.

Re:Nasty

[Goldberg's Pants]

Actually Warren Spector is responsible for the highly respected "Deux Ex" games.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

It was because Interplay wanted Black Isle to released Fallout 2 during the 1998 hoilday session and Fallout 2 wasn't quite ready yet.

Re:Nasty

[Goldberg's Pants]

Damn! Yeah, Cavedog are sorely missed. I mean sure, Crawford has gone on to make Dungeon Siege, but I really didn't like that, despite really wanting too.

Total Annihilation still has quite a big following on the net, and with new addons still being released. Cavedog designed it in such a way as to be totally moddable. Lot of people fondly remember Starcraft, but Total Annhilation was far more innovative, not to mention better looking. (Don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG Blizzard fan, but I think TA was a superior game.)

Re:Nasty

[Goldberg's Pants]

So I guess the developers were inspired by that Cher song then...

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Origin, Sierra, Sirtech, Westwood, Epic, Activision... I guess some of them were publishers, as opposed to developers, but those are all familiar names from the EGA/VGA era.

Re:Nasty

[Goldberg's Pants]

because I fully support that industry, and don't feel like it is trying to screw me over.

You've obviously never burned with the utter lies on the box (system requirements), bad patches (that render the game unplayable), copy protection (Securom stopping legitimate users playing, while not actually preventing piracy in any way), or a complete lack of technical support (I'm looking at you EA, who with one title, basically told me to fuck off when I wrote to them for support).

Re:Nasty

[Dachannien]

Speaking of Sierra, they canned (a couple of years ago) Babylon 5: Into the Fire. When the developers got some investment together and tried to buy all the IP from Sierra (which, because WB had by then revoked Sierra's license, Sierra was *never* going to be able to use), Sierra declined.

Now we have countless B5 mods for various games, and a group of (mostly) Russians are working on a freeware B5 space combat sim.

Re:Nasty

[nadadogg]

Well, I try to keep my PC at a good level of upgrading, and if I have copy protection problems, I'll just go grab the crack, I don't get a raging hard-on for having to do some work to make my games work like other people do, it just doesn't get to me.

Re:Nasty

[abolith]

you should be happy because you A) gotit cheap and B) gave them both a good home :)

Re:Nasty

[wilfire]

the problem with diablo is the point click die effect.

a simple thread of a game

point click die, point click die,point click die,point click die, ohh it dropped a better weapon/ some gold, point click pick up item, point click die die die.

repeat

oh well

Re:Nasty

[rat7307]

As long as prince /megahit work, I'll be happy

Re:Nasty

[Creepy]

You miss the fact that several of the developers (and producer) of Wasteland are the same as those for Fallout and Fallout 2.

For instance, Faran Brygo was a character I remember from Wasteland - I think the link should be obvious (swap the first 3 letters of the first and last name). I think Tim Cain was also involved in Wasteland (Fallout designer), but I don't remember for sure.

Tim said something like "They make games very differently than the way I would." about Interplay for the reason he left after Fallout 2 to found Troika, guess this news proves it :(

Re:Nasty

[kalirion]

I just decided to find out what kinds of treasures the Greater Glaabrezu in Under Sigil could drop. IIRC each kill was worth 100,000XP, and I left the rest of the party behind so TNO could have the pleasure of the killing by himself. After I got tired of that, I looked for interesting ways to beat the Nemesis. My two favorites were:

1. Missile of Patience (thats the name, right?) which took 4 or 5 casts - not bad for a Level 1 spell!

2. Beating the poor guy to death with TNO's own severred arm. As a mage :)

And this is the sort of thing that ended up giving me carpal tunnel syndrome :/

Re:Nasty

[0111 1110]

Which are basically action games. Warren goes way back to the Ultima Underworld days when he was a producer. There was a spectre named "Warren" in Ultima Underworld as a tribute to him.

I think his heart really is in the right place, but he also needs to make money. So he stays away from the riskier, more immersive, and complex, CRPGs and just tries to make action games that are as interesting as possible. I didn't like Deus Ex, but I did like Thief, up to a point. But they are both basically action games.

LGS sold out to popular tastes and the least common denominator long before the whole fiasco that ended them. It was interesting to watch Black Isle do the same. Just compare Icewind Dale II to their earlier titles to see this. In my view such pandering to the tastes of the average person is always the beginning of the end for any company that did not start out doing that. The core fans feel betrayed.

Bethesda is one of the last remaining old timers in the CRPG world, and their games get prettier, but more boring with every new release. But they cater more to the "power-gamer" who just wants to level up.

Re:Nasty

[InThane]

Naw, didn't miss that - I'm well aware of the heritage of Fallout/Fallout 2, and the peerage of the authors. Sadly, the original authors of Wasteland couldn't get their hands on the rights to the Wasteland license, and hence we have Fallout.

I wonder what they'll call the series when they ressurect it a third time?

Fallout's Wasteland? ;)

Re:Nasty

[DarthTaco]

"The whole thing revolved around story, not combat"

Three words: Read a book.

Yes, amazing as it may seem, books in general are based on story not combat. The only problem is that if your hardware isn't good enough to enjoy a particular book, your pretty much sh|t out of luck.

Re:Nasty

[lenester]

Very well put. If you don't know how to play the game, you will ultimately fail in the competetive marketplace. Companies with poor products who bully their way to the top will generally do better than companies with superior products who play nice. But while human nature enforces this duality to a degree, it's still an artificial one... a company with a superior product can be a bully if it wants to, and they'll have market advantage over the other bullies. It'd be nice if things didn't have to be that way, but since they do... hey, Timegate? Please start kicking people randomly in the shins. Long as Kings Of War rocks as hard as Ahriman's Gift, I will be happy.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

copying games has been around since the vic-20 but games are now bigger business than hollywood movies, so there's plenty more to the story than that.

Re:Nasty

[the_mad_poster]

Smartass. Gotcha beat anyway: I'm WRITING a book.

Re:Nasty

[17028]

I think New World went into bankruptcy not too long ago and M&M was sold off as an asset for around a million dollars.

Re:Nasty

[Anonymous Coward]

Most books are not interactive. You usually cannot choose what happens.

Re:Nasty

[bishiraver]

They got shut down because the suits over at Interplay sat down and thought through a dialog most likely similiar to this:

Exec 1: How well did our last Fallout game sell?
Exec 2: Fallout Tactics did not sell very well at all.
Exec 3: We also project that console sales are more useful than PC game sales.
Exec 1: Why are we developing fallout for PC then?
Exec 3: We aren't, we're making a game named after fallout, loosely based on fallout, that a majority of fallout fans hate - for console.
Exec 2: That'll make us money.
Exec 1: Great, then why do we have these people over at Black Isle making a fallout sequel that isn't likely to succeed, given the success rate of .. oh wait, RPGs are doing pretty well.
Exec 2 & 3: Huh? We have an RPG fallout game in development? That'll go nowhere.
Exec 1: alright, we'll shut them down. And right before christmas.. that's their punishment for thinking an rpg could sell well when the sales of games like Knights of the Old Republic and Neverwinter Nights are abysmally low.
Fallout fans: *commits seppuku*
*flies his flag at half mast to mourn the loss of BIS*

Re:Nasty

[bishiraver]

What gets me as moronic on Interplay's part, though, is the fact that they're planning to make a sequel to Fallout Brotherhood of Steel. You know, that X-Box shooter title that barely deserves a Fallout name. The one that people have been banned from the official boards for pointing out serious flaws in the design, and seperation from the fallout franchise while keeping its name. The one that's likely to get one of those 15% ratings. Meenwhile, Fallout 3 was the only one in the franchise that could have been released by xmas next year (at the latest, anyways). From what I understand, they were more than half way through developing the title. A title that's been rumored about and talked about everywhere from No Mutants Allowed to the official Interplay boards. A game that lots and lots of people, I'm sure, would enjoy. They dumped it because it wasn't console. (When they conceivably could have easily made it for both xbox and pc..)

Re:Nasty

[0x0d0a]

Both are publishers, not just dev houses.

Re:Nasty

[drinkypoo]

I can't help but notice that they said it would be out in a few days on October 16th. Do you have any information not included in the fora?

Re:Nasty

[Goldberg's Pants]

Erm... Cracks are illegal dude. If you're making a big deal about not being ripped off by software companies, surely having to violate the license agreement you've agreed too counts as a pretty big fucking restriction.

You've basically shot your own argument down. By using retarded shit like Securom, the software companies you seem to love so much have forced you to use their software illegally, because you violated the agreement you made when you installed. On top of that, if you're in a country with a DMCA style law, you're also engaging in criminal activity.

Yes, software companies are our friends...

Re:Nasty

[Merusdraconis]

"... with the ability to turn back time its a new kind of gameplay" Seems like you didn't play Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask :)

Unlike Majora's, Sands of Time lets you turn back time at any point to any point, within about five seconds or so. Basically it means the end of tedious jumping puzzles, which of course was why it was done.

Majora's, on the other hand, used it as a 'Groundhog Day' device.

It's not revolutionary, but it's something someone had to come up with eventually.

Re:Nasty

[rpillala]

Companies seem to focus on creating shareholder value. Shareholders don't buy stocks because they believe in the company's mission. We contribute our money for the sole purpose of getting more money in return. The source or nature of the value created by any company is not at issue. So a shareholder really has no interest in what exactly the company does, as long as they make money doing it. This is my theory of what's going on at Interplay.

A publicly held company should be able to rely on the faith of its shareholders (expressed when they bought the stock) and take risks with the money. If shareholders believe in the ability of those people, then they'll accept whatever outcome (including the loss of their own money) because "we're all in this together."

I can't imagine any company inspiring that kind of faith in people nowadays, let alone Interplay.

Ravi

Re:Nasty

[Belgand]

Grr... a shame that they had to use a DVD for this as I don't have a DVD-ROM drive on my computer. Especially when you consider that one of the titles is available free online (America's Army) and another is a monthly-fee MMORPG (Dark Age of Camelot) it's really a waste done just so they can write a lot of masturbatory copy on how great they were to do this. I probably would have considered buying it just for Thief 2 (which for some highly bizarre reason I never bought)... guess it's time to check stores for the price on the Thief 1/2 bundle.

And, where the reason?

[MMaestro]

All it states in the quote is that Interplay has cut the BIS team. The rest of the quote is nothing but bashing Interplay

Re:And, where the reason?

[Drakin]

Well, some of the reasons could be the following:

-Interplay has lost at least $20 million this year
-One of BIS forthcoming products was canned because of a legal mess with WotC
-thier 2 main consol releases, schedualed for the holidays were pushed back to January (one of them BIS produced), because of another legal issue (this time with a distrobuter)

In other words, they were hurting for money.

Re:And, where the reason?

[Maestro4k]

• All it states in the quote is that Interplay has cut the BIS team. The rest of the quote is nothing but bashing Interplay

It's there in the bashing, apparently Interplay has decided the future is Console only, and is getting out of the PC game biz, at least as far as Black Isle Studio games are concerned.

Re:And, where the reason?

[xcham]

WoTC? care to enlighten the rest of us not so familiar with these acronyms?

Re:And, where the reason?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wizards Of The Coast

Most notably, they hold the trademark and other rights to Dungeons & Dragons.

Re:And, where the reason?

[afidel]

Wizards of the Coast, the company that made a boatload off Magic: The Gathering and took their earnings and bought up valuable properties like TSR.

Re:And, where the reason?

[Drakin]

As others have stated, Wizards of the Coast.

Black Isle Studios was working on another Dungons and Dragons based game, and Wizards of the Coast, the owner of the property, started a legal battle and Interplay quashed it.

Re:And, where the reason?

[MMaestro]

Good reasons, but poor conclusion. Theres basicly no question about BIS being a popular PC developer (fans of Fallout 1 and 2 are quite vocal) so economically, cutting off one of your best teams is not a good judgement. Unless BIS burned too much money with no results or seriously pissed off someone up the line, cutting off BIS and going console is a huge, unexpected shift. Especially for a company whos strengths have been in the PC market.

Re:And, where the reason?

[calethix]

"thier 2 main consol releases, schedualed for the holidays were pushed back to January (one of them BIS produced)"

Speaking of that, I think this just wiped out any hope I had left for ever seeing Dark Alliance 2 ported to the gamecube.

Re:And, where the reason?

[Lost Dragon]

And subsequently sold out to Hasborg.

Re:And, where the reason?

[Tiassa]

Nitpick: Wasn't that "Hasbro"?

Re:And, where the reason?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nitpick: Wasn't that "Hasbro"?

You must be one of those people who thinks there's no dollar sign in NASDAQ:MSFT's real name.

Re:And, where the reason?

[Dave_bsr]

rumor has it that a lot of the fallout team quit and moved on to better things...I agree that F1 and F2 were great, but I guess the talent was gone...*shrug*

gaming, inevitiably leaving its indie roots,

[Anonymous Coward]

black isle had a wonderful, hand-made game, made by gamers feel to their products, reminiscent of early origin and sierra. sadly those type of developers are becoming rarer. this sucks. i wish them all good luck.

This is terrible

[obeythefist]

BIS made some really excellent games, games that are remembered long after their day. Much like the old gold box games that were released way back when by TSR.

I lost many hours of my life playing through Planescape:Torment and all the other games delivered to us from Black Isle.

One wonders if Interplay have decided that money is no longer a desireable outcome of the game production money? Have they lost all inclination to produce new classics, as I'm sure Fallout 3 would have become?

Perhaps Interplay simply doesn't percieve a value in role-playing games like Fallout and Baldurs Gate and the likes on the consoles of the future. Games with writing are to be frowned upon in console-land, as you can't read text quite as nicely on a TV set. This falls nicely into my growing theory that consoles are causing the end of the brain era of gaming, and sending us back into pac-man twitch land.

Re:This is terrible

[captainkibble]

Why produce a well thought out, intelligent RPG that hundreds of thousands of people will buy when in the same time you can produce 10 shoddy platform games/beat-em-ups/1st person shooters that will sell millions? Its all about the money.

Sad but true.

Re:This is terrible

[Maestro4k]

• Perhaps Interplay simply doesn't percieve a value in role-playing games like Fallout and Baldurs Gate and the likes on the consoles of the future. Games with writing are to be frowned upon in console-land, as you can't read text quite as nicely on a TV set. This falls nicely into my growing theory that consoles are causing the end of the brain era of gaming, and sending us back into pac-man twitch land.

Not all companies are going this route. While I must admit I really enjoyed games like Final Fantasy X and Xenosaga that were almost completely voice acted (and voice acted well, not with the company's janitors and secretaries), games like Disgaea have a mixture, but the story's primarily given to you through text. It is interesting to note that the company who made Disgaea is from Japan though, perhaps they still believe gamers are smart enough to know how to read.

Re:This is terrible

[John_Booty]

I'm glad you mentioned Disgaea. That game had the most brilliant and engaging writing I've seen in a game in ages. There were a lot of "in-jokes", and the plot was more linear than something like a Black Isle RPG, but it proved that you can have great writing in a console RPG.

I'm not comparing Japanese RPG's to North American PC RPG's and saying one is superior; that's like comparing apples and oranges. A lot of people will like one and hate the other. But a game like Disgaea proves that it really is possible to have great storytelling in a console game...

Re:This is terrible

[Maestro4k]

You may already know about it, but try Rhapsody for PS1 if you haven't. It's by the same Japanese company (and interestingly enough, the same US company localized it), Nippon Ichi. It's very wacky and fun. Only game I know of where wearing a huge teddy-bear like contest figures greatly in the story. :) Unfortunately the even funnier sequel (Little Princess) didn't make it over to the US. Knowledge of Japanese is a definite must to understanding it too. I was fortunate enough to have a friend translate for me as I played it. :)

Re:This is terrible

[John_Booty]

I've heard good things about Rhapsody. I'm definitely in favor of any game where you can attack people with giant stacks of pancakes! :P

I have a friend who was working on a Marjoly Cookie costume...

Re:This is terrible

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, there's certainly no console RPGs with tons of writing in them. Nope, none at all.

Re:This is terrible

[rsmith-mac]

Interplay definately seems to be squirming, or working on some larger plan to redefine/close themselves. When you considering the sheer number of good games and titles they own, the fact that they're having trouble is staggering: Freespace(the best space sim, ever), Kingpin, Icewind Dale, MDK, and Descent(I mean, who hasn't played Descent?). They could make so many great games if they tried, or at least sell these licences to other parties and admit they need the cash, but they're unwilling to do either. The real loss however is to the gamers; all of these great titles have been lost in time to Interplay.

Re:This is terrible

[Maestro4k]

• I've heard good things about Rhapsody. I'm definitely in favor of any game where you can attack people with giant stacks of pancakes! :P

And it's grand fun too. :) That's not the only whacky attack she gets either! :)

• I have a friend who was working on a Marjoly Cookie costume...

Now that's kind of scary....

The collective cry of Fallout fans

[Laplace]

NOOOOOoooooooo.........

Re:The collective cry of Fallout fans

[Anonymous Coward]

The Fall
Not Fallout but a promising alternative.

Re:The collective cry of Fallout fans

[DarkGreenNight]

Nonono... the collective cry of Fallout fans is:

sigh... YEAH!

FO3 canned? well now with a bit of luck FOBOS will either flop or be canned and they'll need more money to stay afloat and perhaps they will sell the licence to someboy who will not place more whores and mutants!

Not because of BIS, but the managers wanted to whore the francise.

Re:The collective cry of Fallout fans

[Fallout2man]

T'is truly a sad day to both see Black Isle close out and hear that the much anticipated Fallout 3 was canned. I can only hope the IP is sold to someone else who WILL make the next game, and hopefully a good one that lives up to the last two.

Re:The collective cry of Fallout fans

[Anonymous Coward]

it doesn't seem gritty enough...a little too fantasy happy-lala-pseudo-wasteland-ish. part of the appeal of the fallout series was the toasted cities and urban decay, and the realistic re-emergance of a new society with all the same vices and violence as the pre-war society. that, and the half 50's half futuristic mood it had going on. seems a bit of a far cry from the half-destroyed barns and farms pictured in the screenshots of the fall.

A huge loss with death of Fallout

[agent oranje]

Fallout was one of the finest RPGs I've ever played. Storyline was fantastic, gameplay was excellent... graphics weren't spectacular, but that wasn't the game's selling feature. Fallout 2 came along, rehashing the same old graphics, and same old gameplay, into an absolutely amazing game, superior to the original. The story is excellent, blending along with the first quite nicely, and with much more depth...

Fallout 3 would have been amazing. I have no doubt about this. The only thing which could be better would be Fallout Online.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Loadmaster]

The story in Fallout was excellent. Is it just me, or does anyone else see some similarities between the Fallout series story and A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller jr.?

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Sowelu]

Fallout Online? I call shotgun!

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[AvantLegion]

>> The only thing which could be better would be Fallout Online

I can think of nothing worse.

Nothing would ruin Fallout's compelling world faster than the "kewl d00dz"

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Anonymous Coward]

You are anonymous to other Slashdotters, which is what matters. You have never been anonymous to the editors since they can check their logs anyway.

And if you are worried about Slashdot, just stop posting here.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Dr. GeneMachine]

Now you got me interested... I never played Fallout, but I definitely loved "A canticle for Leibowitz". Do you know if the game is still available?

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[szap]

Fallout 3 would have been amazing.

I'd certainly hope so too, but I'd rather have it end at Fallout 2 than have Fallout 3 radically changed to accomodate the publisher's requirements to sell to the "unwashed masses" and remove elements that made the Fallout series good.

I've said the same thing about Deus Ex 2 ("It'd have been amazing"), and then tried playing it, but it have been a major disappointment for me, esp. the perceived bias towards the Lower Common Denominator of gamers on consoles and I don't want it to happen to Fallout 3.

Background: Looking Glass created the original Deus Ex under Warren Spector. Looking Glass was closed down, but Warren Spector also lead the development for Deus Ex 2 under Ion Storm and Eidos (of Daikatana fame)...

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[crabpeople]

"Now you got me interested... I never played Fallout, but I definitely loved "A canticle for Leibowitz". Do you know if the game is still available?"

other way around.. does that book have a 'vault dweller' character a crazy nuclear powered car and 2 headed brahmin?

cause that would get me interested in the book..

you can probably get that game off kazaa or in a bargain bin for $10 (if you want to pay for things). ebay is good too first listening is 5.50 for fallout 2. play one and then two it will make more of an impact, but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD dont play fallout tactics.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Teddy Beartuzzi]

Fallout and Fallout 2 were two of the few games that I've purchased in the last five years or so. There's so much crap nowadays, I can't be bothered. Fallout had some of the best manuals I've ever seen. That little guy showing all the things that could go wrong, melting from radiation, his hands blown off from poor gun handling technique, just classic stuff. I would have bought Fallout 3 without even hesitating.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, Slashdot uses the friends system to track "trolls." Mark a troll you find funny as a friend *bang* $rtbl never to moderate ever again.

Not true. All my friends are trolls and I still get new mod points.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[poulbailey]

> Looking Glass created the original Deus Ex under Warren Spector.

That's not true. Deus Ex was an Ion Storm Austin product too (and it was published by Eidos of Daikatana fame...).

> [...] Warren Spector also lead the development for Deus Ex 2 under Ion Storm and Eidos (of Daikatana fame).

No, he didn't. Harvey Smith was the lead on Invisible War.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[DuranDuran]

> I can think of nothing worse.

What about cholera?

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[The_great_orgazmo]

wrong, any online rpg game turns into a brainless hack/slash diablo type thing. Damn, look at nwn for crying out loud, its just 3rd person quake based on 3rd edition dnd.. its just sad

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Teddy Beartuzzi]

Was just browsing through the Fallout Bible posted on the Black Isle web page and what do I find:

"One more thing: the monks did not understand the knowledge in the books they preserved. They treated them like holy materials, to be read and copied and cared for, but not acted upon. Think of the book "A Canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller, which was the inspiration for the abbey."

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[PainKilleR-CE]

Just a note that it takes a bit of work to get Fallout 1 working under Win2k or XP, but Fallout 2 seems to work just fine. You might also be able to find the games in the bargain games section of WalMart, depending on local stock, or at some game stores, depending on how much of their old PC game stock they've kept around (used to be able to get a lot of old games at EBGames and GameStop, but they seem to be shifting towards consoles now).

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Dr. GeneMachine]

Ok.. thanks!

does that book have a 'vault dweller' character a crazy nuclear powered car and 2 headed brahmin?

Well, not exactly. It depicts a largely destroyed society, pulling itself from the rubble of an atomic holocaust, burning books and scientists, who, according to popular believe, caused the whole mess. Meanwhile, some strange monks try to preserve knowledge from the pre-war times, without really knowing what it means - using electronic blueprints for liturgic art, for example. As time goes by, we see the scientific mind rising again, society restructuring itself, finally leading to the next nuclear war. Give it a try, it's worth it!

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Anonymous Coward]

I get so tired of hearing about the "lowest common denominator" of console games. Let's see, what are the two biggest games coming out for PC's in the next year... Halflife 2, and Doom 3. Wow! Two FPSes, that will play exactly the same as every FPS since Wolfenstein, but with better graphics. Run around the maze with the keyboard, aim with the mouse, and shoot everything I see. How... highbrow of them.

Meanwhile, on the console side, we have Metroid Prime, which took the first person shooter genre, turned it on it's ear by making it more about exploration and discovery than about mindless shooting, has a fantastic plot, tons of written text to read as you uncover the story through your use of the scanner, multiple visor types and upgrades that reveal new things about the game environment, and some platforming action with the third person morph ball puzzles.

On computers, you have endless rehashes of tired AD&D based RPGs. Oh, look, the [evil wizard] has stolen the [powerful item] and is going to take over the world. I better get my fighter, thief, magic user, and cleric, and fight a bunch of orcs, and collect a bunch of item to defeat him!

Meanwhile, in console RPGs, we have games like Skies of Arcadia, which combine a scifi and fantasy/pirate theme, and in addition to party based combat, has fantastic ship to ship combat, and a huge well thought out game world. Or Animal Crossing, a fantastic town simulator / RPG, social interaction game like nothing else on the market.

Oh look, on the PC, we have Warcraft 3! Wow, it's exactly like Warcraft 2, only with better graphics. Harvest the lumber, build the buildings, make the units, fight the enemy. Exactly the same as every RTS that has come out since Dune.

Meanwhile, on the console, we have Pikmin, a reimagining of the entire RTS concept that plays fresh and feels original.

I think I'll stick to my "lowest common denominator" console games. Have fun with Doom(1,2,3...) and Warcraf(1,2,3...).

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[roystgnr]

Meanwhile, on the console side, we have Metroid Prime, which took the first person shooter genre, turned it on it's ear by making it more about exploration and discovery than about mindless shooting, has a fantastic plot, tons of written text to read as you uncover the story through your use of the scanner, multiple visor types and upgrades that reveal new things about the game environment, and some platforming action with the third person morph ball puzzles.

I'm surprised, not that you posted this, but that you posted it in reply to another message which mentioned Deus Ex by name and you apparantly didn't expect anyone else to notice the irony.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[dsvj1977]

You are forgetting comedy! What other game would you be able to sleep around with truckloads of women and earn the title "Gigilo" or "Sex Expert"!!! Cheers, Da Newf

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Anonymous Coward]

Cholera would definitely be better - especially if it killed off all the 'kewl d000dz' and Interplay suits.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[FortKnox]

Fallout 3 would have been amazing

Never say never.

Ever heard of the "Theif" series by Looking Glass? Ion Storm is working on Theif 3 right now. Other companies CAN take over, and if the 'major players' all go to one company, its likely they may just do that.

There is even a stories of Ion Storm picking up System Shock 3 (which would be -amazing-).

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Bryan Ischo]

Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 have been sold in a dual-pack box for several years now. It's still readily available. I see it at Fry's all the time; they have a display of "old" games all for about $10, and the Fallout 1/2 combo is one of them.

I've often considered going back and buying all of the "games of the year" from about 1995 - 2000 and playing those, the graphics might not be equal to what's available today but I'm sure they'd be more fun that your average new $50 title.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout

[Anonymous Coward]

Prove it, liar.

Bummer

[DiracFeynman]

Planescape-Torment is one of my favorite games of all time.

Re:Bummer

[Negatyfus]

What about Baldur's Gate 1+2? Neverwinter Nights? These deserve to be mentioned as well. Black Isle was one of those surprising little companies with heart for what they do that totally stunned me and became my favorite, sort of like SquareSoft on the PlayStation. This hurts, because it feels like the big corporation has won over the fanatical creative artist.

Re:Bummer

[DiracFeynman]

I believe that those are not Black Isle games.

Re:Bummer

[afidel]

Actually Black Isle Studios published the BG games and funded the early development of NWN which they then sold back the rights to to Bioware.

Re:Bummer

[Negatyfus]

Then what was Black Isle's involvement in these games?

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

publishing, funding, and lending its name mainly

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Please... don't mention Square. Not now. They used to be THE be-all and end-all of RPG developers. Front Mission, FFVI, Tales of Phantasia, SMRPG, Chrono Trigger. Even they've forgotten about everything they used to care about to the point that their newest game is about three scatily clad women with guns. At least they didn't make it a 3rd-person shooter like they originally planned.

Re:Bummer

[Snowmit]

Black Isle didn't make BG 1 and 2. Bioware did. Bioware also made Neverwinter Nights. You may remember that Bioware cut ties with Interplay/Black Isle over contract problems.

Nostalgia is cute and all but Black Isle hasn't made a great game in a long time. I won't miss it at all. I will, on the other hand, continue to watch Bioware and Troika. Don't get caught up in the brand names, follow the actual creators.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe someone with the wrong facts can get modded up! Instead of RTFA how about RTFP or Read The Fucking History!

Dork.

Re:Bummer

[Lightwarrior]

Bioware is the development house behind BG1+2 and NWN, not BIS. Please get your facts straight before posting, thanks =)

-lw

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Troika made the very excellent Arcanum, with Fallout's freedom in completeing quests and killing people. Go anywhere, do your own thing, follow the plot/quests/side-quests at your leisure. The graphics were a little cheesy, but they do grow on you.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Tales of Phantasia? Ah hell no. ToP was made by Wolf Team (now tri-Ace) and published by Namco, who kept the rights to the Tales of series. Squaresoft never has been and never will be on the level of Wolf Team/tri-Ace.

Re:Bummer

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but if it wern't for Black Isle and Interplay keeping those primadonnas in line, no one would have heard of Bioware. Even if they had found another producer to buy into the Infinity Engine, you would have never heard of them again because they prefered to spend their cold Canadian nights playing Soul Caliber instead of fixing bugs. They would have been back to making medical software in a year.

My favorite story about Bioware.... During the testing of BG2:ToB a 100 percent repeatable crash bug was found. The responce from Bioware... "That bug shipped in BG2 so we don't want to spend the time fixing it for the expantion."

Damnit!

[captainkibble]

Ahhhh crap! I think that about sums up my thoughts. I always thought it would just be a matter of time before we got Fallout 3. Looks like we will never see it now. Bummer. :(

Fa..fa...fa...Fallout 3!?!

[metrazol]

They...they weren't really working of Fallout 3 were they? Because... if they were... and it's...it's 'shelved'... I think I might just... must find tall building... bridge... industrial dough mixer... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I'm going to go cry now...

Re:Fa..fa...fa...Fallout 3!?!

[xcham]

I feel likewise. I hadn't even HEARD about Fallout 3. There are only so many times you can replay 1 & 2 before they cease to be all that interesting (mind you, there is replay value, just not infinite...)

I loved the first two Fallout games. Fallout Tactics didn't really live up but I have been looking forward to Fallout 3 since I played Fallout 2 for the first time (quite a while ago now). Damnit damnit damnit!

Re:Fa..fa...fa...Fallout 3!?!

[Maestro4k]

• They...they weren't really working of Fallout 3 were they? Because... if they were... and it's...it's 'shelved'... I think I might just... must find tall building... bridge... industrial dough mixer... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Go for the dough mixer, and leave a suicide note. It'll get more press coverage that way. ;) Maybe it'll shame Interplay into changing their minds.

Re:Fa..fa...fa...Fallout 3!?!

[arkanes]

Or maybe you'll just give Acclaim a really good idea for it's next PR campaign.

Re:Fa..fa...fa...Fallout 3!?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, they were (key word) working on FO3. nma-fallout.com and a few other sites got developer posts from them a lot. They only called it Van Buren for a long time, and never said wether or not it was FO3. But the last few months, they've been actually calling it FO3, and have been stating enough details for a while before that, so that there's no doubt what they were working on Fallout 3.

I don't know about you, but I hope everybody posting here that love Fallout will email Interplay and beg them to at least allow BIS to stay alive long enough to get Fallout 3 out the door.

And I just heard about it, too!

[Sowelu]

I saw some of the unofficial stuff about Fallout 3 just a couple days ago and I've been drooling about it ever since. Fate is cruel. Of course, I also found this thing called IanOut, a third-party Fallout engine...

Re:And I just heard about it, too!

[0x0d0a]

Of course, I also found this thing called IanOut, a third-party Fallout engine...

I'm dubious that it would be of much value.

The Fallout engine is actually of fairly little technical significance (well, I haven't worked on the code, but I don't see anything particularly outstanding or unheard of in it). In many ways, it's actually rather behind the times. This isn't trying to bash the authors -- it gets the job done that it was intended to do -- but just to say that it isn't quite the same as, say, the most recent Carmack engine, where the code is really beyond what other folks have been doing. The amazing thing about Fallout is the content. The artwork, design, story, dialog, free form play and neat character creation system are all top-notch, and are what make Fallout fun to play.

So, unless you simply want to play existing Fallout titles, I'm not sure that the engine does much good. The problem is that it's really *hard* to make all the levels and characters and graphics and dialog and audio associated with a Fallout game.

Nasty-The "cap" in capitalism.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why is it the good companies go under, but the crap ones live on?"

Because people are voting with their dollars, and crap is king.

Re:Nasty-The "cap" in capitalism.

[Ashran]

Actually hes called president nowadays

Re:Nasty-The "cap" in capitalism.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm...I can tell you where MY vote is headed, as I stated in an email to interplay:

To whom it may concern:

Is Interplay NUTS? Black Isle Studios was an awesome division. There were very few of my friends in college who did not own Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, Icewind Dale, or some other Black Isle Studios game. Over the last several years, I have paid good money for several of their games. Be sure of one thing: I will NOT be buying "Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel." The main factor leading me to buy that game in the first place would have been Black Isle's reputation for excellence. Knowing that Interplay laid off the developers who originated that excellent series in the first place, I am NOT so inclined to pay out money for a spinoff of their material. Tell the suits that they are out of touch with the gaming community.

Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[Anonymous Coward]

Several of the Fallout guys left long ago, and are working in Troika Games, the studio that released the brilliant Arcanum, and is currently working on Vampire...

Black Isle is dead.
Long live Black Isle!

Re:Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[shione]

I hope the BI guys can find employment with their old workmates then.
Arcanum is selling for only AU$20 here but I'm still to find a store that still has it. Apparently they got snapped up really quick.

Re:Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[DrMrLordX]

Arcanum was not brilliant. It felt like a demo, the interface was bad . . . enh.

Many of the problems inherant to Arcaum cropped up on Lionheart somehow, even though it's not an official Troika game(I don't think?).

Re:Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[MooCows]

Ahh, that explains.
Troika are also the guys that made "The Temple of Elemental Evil".
Probably the deepest D&D CRPG to date.

It was severely screwed over by Atari however :(
(Atari, perhaps WOTC too, ordered a lot of stuff cut, then Atari released TTOEE without any testing .. bastards)

Re:Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. I *really* wanted to like Arcanum. A *lot*. But the poor interface and wildly-varying difficulty really put me off.

If you have to level-build to advance the story, then something's wrong with your gameplay. I spent hours in the sewers of Tarrant trying to whack zombies because I was too weak to do anything else yet...

Re:Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[Mark Dentari]

Exactly. What made Black Isle truely great left the company already. Fallout 2 suffered and had a weak weak ending. The developers were riding the talent of the Troika guys and just couldn't close out the game design. To me Black Isle closing doesn't matter. It's like a famous band that has already lost the talented members and then breaking up years later. You don't miss the band, you miss the real talent that left already.

Re:Several of the Fallout guys left long ago..

[Auzure]

They also released an amazing DND game (Temple of the Elemental Evil), but Atari screwed them by cutting a bunch of sweet content (i.e., the whore house) to get the Teen rating, and rushing them, so when the game hit the shelves it wan't close to done. Honestly, had it not been buggy, TOEE would have been the best DND game since BG2

*Whimper*

[Spider[DAC]]

aaagh.. But but.. they can't do this, can they?

*Whimper*

*Whine*

*snif*

I've wasted hours and hours on the previous games, I even invested time in Fallout Tactics (all in wine, yes)...

I admit that i thought Fallout3 was a ways into the future, but ... never? No.. please?

Wow

[bat'ka makhno]

Are we at a point where the gaming masses have become so retarded as to ensure that only copycat FPS, RTS and sports games ever get produced? Plots, characters, atmosphere, it's all gone, but who gives a shit. As long as we can all get 90 fps in Doom3 and relive our favorite Monday Night Football moments, the industry'll be alright.

What a fucking waste of technology.

At least the absolute derth of quality PC games cuts short all of the asshole anti-Mac arguments.

Re:Wow

[drodver]

Seriously, have you played Star Wars: KOTOR yet? best game in years.

Re:Wow

[Maestro4k]

• Are we at a point where the gaming masses have become so retarded as to ensure that only copycat FPS, RTS and sports games ever get produced? Plots, characters, atmosphere, it's all gone, but who gives a shit. As long as we can all get 90 fps in Doom3 and relive our favorite Monday Night Football moments, the industry'll be alright.

The truly sad part is the rabid fanboys of FPSs who obsess over frame rates and ever tiny detail are a great minority of gamers. It's very interesting to look at the top sales charts for any given month. Generally 1-3 of the top 20 will be FPS games, the rest aren't. In fact, games with little hardcore gamer appeal consistently take up top spots. (The Sims & their 100 expansion packs for instance.) Many game companies (this means you Interplay) apparently can't see the truth out there and shoot for the hardcore audience. The problem is the real money is in pleasing the general audience.

Before I'm skewered for that statement, let me point out that you don't have to dumb down a game to make it appealing to both hard core and casual gamers. A game with a great engrossing story, decent graphics (they don't have to be the world's best) and a serious fun value (something a lot of games forget about) will please nearly everyone. Sure the frame-rate crowd will complain about the lack of quantum texturing or some such crap, but most people will be happy with it and it'll sale really well.

The other unfortunate thing is game companies (again, this means you Interplay) that seem to think PC Gaming is dead, when nothing could be further from the truth. Right now PCs are capable of better graphics than any of the current consoles, and the next crop of consoles is at best a year off (if rumors of Nintendo announcing a new console at E3 next year are true). Hell, now's the perfect time to push PC gaming since current consoles are towards the end of their life cycle.

That being said though, I've ended up a console gamer because of the lack of quality control in PC games. (aka the ship it then patch it approach.) I got sick of finding out I'd have to download huge patches to make a game playable, or need to update to fix a horrid glitch and invalidate my save games in the process. No thanks, I'll stick to consoles till game publishers figure out that consumers want a game that works out of the box. Yes I know that not all console games are perfect, but the extra testing they go through from the console maker as well as from the company making them help out a lot.

I just worry that with the next generation of consoles all likely coming with hard drives and built-in Internet connectivity that publishers will move the ship then patch mentality over to consoles too. If that happens, I'm afraid video gaming as a whole will suffer in ways that'll be pitiful, and potentially non-recoverable from.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you expect?

This is what happens when companies listen to American gamers. They hear, "more of the same, only more AWESOME," and their eyes turn into dollar signs - because the same old shit is easy to do.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Are we at a point where the gaming masses have become so retarded as to ensure that only copycat FPS, RTS and sports games ever get produced?

As opposed to copycat RPGs? This was going to be Fallout *3*, after all..

Self-plagarism is still plagarism right?

Re:Wow

[bat'ka makhno]

Was McCarthy self-plagiarising in the Border Trilogy? What about Abel Ferrara and the heavy-handed Christian predictability of his masterpieces? I'd much rather see copycat RPGs than what's been presented to the PC gamer in the past four or five years. A next installment of Ultima plagiarising chapter VII and Serpent Isle or a Fallout 3 would be copies I'd definitely love to play; but it's late and I should probably go dream away from the computer.

Re:Wow

[Tarrek]

It's good, but it doesn't shake a stick at Fallout 2.

Re:Wow

[TwistedGreen]

No, it's just that the gaming market has grown so much that the 'gaming masses' now encompass the majority of people, which is largely, as you put it, retarded. The gaming community of today cannot be compared with the gaming community of maybe 5 years ago, when good games were actually being made. The good games of old are no longer big sells because the people that supported them are now a minority.

Re:Wow

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Yes I know that not all console games are perfect, but the extra testing they go through from the console maker as well as from the company making them help out a lot.

It's not necessarily the testing that helps the console games (although it DOES matter). Perhaps the most important thing is that console games are targetted for one specific hardware system. The problem with PCs is that there are too many combinations and hence harder to test. Everything might be fine on the test system but when you change the video card, the fog effect all of a sudden is messed up (because some old cards do it differently). Or the sound effects are lagging because some sound cards implement echoing differently. And so on. On a console, it either works or it doesn't. If it works on your test system, it likely works on every other console. Not only does this mean that there are less issues to worry about, it also means that your QA resources can be spent testing game flaws (instead of hardware bugs).

This is not to take away from your point. Yes, companies go with the patch mentality. BUT the fact that PCs are so diverse means that they will always have more bugs. Even when consoles have hard drives and internet patching capability, they will still be FAR better than the PCs (when it comes to bugs).

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Wow

[Maestro4k]

• The problem with PCs is that there are too many combinations and hence harder to test. Everything might be fine on the test system but when you change the video card, the fog effect all of a sudden is messed up (because some old cards do it differently). Or the sound effects are lagging because some sound cards implement echoing differently. And so on.

I won't contest this, and in fact these type of bugs don't terribly bother me. I realize that the only way all these things will show up is when the code gets into the hands of enough people. :)

What I was referring too, and should have made clearer, are the show-stopper bugs that occur on all system configurations and should never have made it out of development. This probably isn't the finest example out there (since we all know it went through development hell), but you couldn't even finish Daikatana as it was released. That's just pathetic. Those are the type of things that pushed me away from PC games for good.

Re:Wow

[blincoln]

The gaming community of today cannot be compared with the gaming community of maybe 5 years ago, when good games were actually being made.

I don't know about that. I heard the same thing five years ago about what were the olden days then.

There have always been a ton of games that really aren't very good, and they've always been about US$50 (adjusted for inflation) as long as I've been playing, which is about fifteen years now.

It's always easier to remember the good parts of the past without the bad ones, and there are a lot of great games being made just like there have always been.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Fallout 2 was horrible pre-patch, also. I'm just pointing out that even the guys at Black Isle were human (contrary to what most /. posters seem to think on this thread).

Re:Wow

[AllUsernamesAreGone]

"I got sick of finding out I'd have to download huge patches to make a game playable, or need to update to fix a horrid glitch and invalidate my save games in the process."

As opposed to consoles, where there can still be huge bugs get through and you can't patch them?

Yeah, the quality control barrier is a bit higher, but then you're stuck there. You get the quality they ship with, and if you can't get past some bit because of a bohr bug, you are buggered - you either need to start again or use an earlier save and hope like hell it doesn't happen again (this has happened to me on several console games).

Personally, I'd rather have patch-happy PC games: they're cheaper and more likely to end up fixed.

Re:Wow

[dsvj1977]

I recenly purchases an xbox. Now, before many of you decide to fire-bomb my house, listen to my reasoning. There are times when I am just a little too intoxicated to have any form of motor control. At that point, I play games with the boys on the xbox. Amped, KotOR, etc. They are mindless. Require little to no thought, and do their job. When the great games come around, Baldur's Gate, NWN, etc, I play them on my PC. That is ultimately what I want on my PC. A quality game that require a certain dedication of time and thought. I recently discovered the CSI game. While obviously not intended for the hard-core gamer, I could not rip myself away it. Causing my work to suffer, but that is another story. Game companies constantly put out the garbage, on both console and PC, that need to be patched constantly. Look at EA's NHL 2004. NHL 2002 was great, 2003 was good, but not so great, 2004, while it looks pretty, brings me to tears everytime I play it. Having worked for a software company, I know the whole "get it done now, for no money, cutting all corners" approach. It is all too prevelant in our society where money talks, and quality walks. It is a damn shame. I will continue to outright pay for good games, from good developers. A friend and I were discussing the whole Deus Ex 2 / Prince Of Persia fiascos recently, and came up with a frightening revelation. It is definately a sad time for the computer industry as a whole when the quality games (work out of the box, worth the $60 CDN you paid, etc..) are put out by Microsoft. And the former gods of the industry (Interplay, EA, Eidos) can do nothing but release crap. Makes you wonder if the trend to farm ungodly amounts of programming jobs to India is really worth it in the long run. Cheers, Da Newf.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

The truly sad part is the rabid fanboys of FPSs who obsess over frame rates and ever tiny detail are a great minority of gamers. It's very interesting to look at the top sales charts for any given month. Generally 1-3 of the top 20 will be FPS games

Look, you need to make up your mind. Either FPS gamers are a great minority (a great minority?!?!), or they have enough numbers to move FPS games to the top 3 sales charts. I'm having trouble reconciling these two concepts.

Re:Wow

[Maestro4k]

• As opposed to consoles, where there can still be huge bugs get through and you can't patch them?

When it happens, yeah it sucks, but not nearly as many games end up released on consoles with show-stopped bugs mainly because of the extra testing the console maker puts them through.

With the ones that are generally real stinkers (the last Lara Croft anyone?) the news gets out pretty quick, and they don't sell as well.

In a perfect world, games would be released working 99% right. Patches would only be needed to fix those weird problems that occur with strange hardware configs noone would think to test, or they'd add features/content. Right now there's way too much of a "get it out by Christmas, who cares if it actually works!" mentality with many companies. :(

OSS-the Rin Tin Tin of solutions.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, with all the cries of "noooooooooo" and complaints about "shoddy games", etc, etc. This would be the one area that cries out for open source. But of course, here we all are crying about another game down the drain.

Re:OSS-the Rin Tin Tin of solutions.

[captainkibble]

Congrats to the muppet who modded this sad attempt to start an open source argument up as insightful.

this sucks

[IshanCaspian]

Having played the Icewind Dale series to death, I have to just say that this sucked. I used to hang out on the BIS message boards a lot, and I really got the feel that these guys really put their hearts into making well-crafted stories for the fans to enjoy. This is really a shame. Good luck to everyone who worked at BIS, and best of luck in the future.

sigh

[Silvers]

This is a sad day. Some of my favorites have been Black Isle productions.

Interplay wants to make money, not games

[LordZardoz]

This is the sort of thing that happens when the intrests of the developer and the publisher diverge. Interplay wanted to make money, and probably worked its developers at a death march pace. No developer can sustain that for an extended period of time.

Interplay wanted Bioware to churn out its games faster and faster, and make them larger and larger. It also wanted to pay Bioware alot less then what they had coming. Since Bioware was not owned by Interplay, Bioware told them to f**k right off, and went to Infogrames / Atari.

I guess the same sort of crap went on at Black Isle.

Black Isle was owned, so they could not just walk away from Interplay. Their core group of experienced developers probably told their bosses to stick it where the sun doesnt shine, and took a walk. That, or they dug in and refused to work a death march. Either way, Interplay decided to shut down the studio.

Anyway, this is all guess work. But it seems plausible enough to me to explain what happened.

END COMMUNICATION

Re:Interplay wants to make money, not games

[Xzorxur]

I just wanted to jump in and clear this up some. Interplay management had been ignoring our project since the start. I'm not sure why, maybe because they wanted to focus on console. Maybe they didn't like how we were slightly independent from the rest of the company. They knew what project we were working on, but not much more than that. Were we driven to work long and hard? Yes, but not because Interplay was pushing us. We were kickin ass because those of us on the project were there because we beleived in our project and our ability as a team to finish our project.

Re:Interplay wants to make money, not games

[stripe]

I loved the Fallout series of games. I have purchased them since the original Fallout. Actually if I remember correctly there was a game prior to Fallout that I had on floppies a few generations of computers ago. I have played thru each Fallout game at least 5-6 times. As games go they have the best repeat playability.

Re:Interplay wants to make money, not games

[pNutz]

No, this isn't what happened at all. The developers were diligently working away at Fallout 3, after the creator of BIS, Feargus Urquart, had left, and after the original lead on Fallout3, Josh Sawyer, left as well. They were working to get the game made despite signals from Interplay. I've heard terrible stories about the politics and headaches of working at BIS. I've never worked there, so I can only imagine.

Interplay shut down BIS because they will be console-only from now on. Their stock is at 7 cents/share and they've lost their Matrix and DnD licences (Baldur's Gate 3 was about 90% done when they messed that up) and all they have is the Fallout licence. They think, for some ungodly reason, thing the bastard that is Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel and its sequel will generate more revenue than F3 would.

For canning a game that they repeatedly promised for 4 years, all the while pumping out DnD titles, finally announcing after unleashing a Fallout console game with about as much to do with Fallout as a beer commercial and canning a dedicated, talented team and a great development house 2 week before Christmas, they have my absolute animosity.
All I want from Interplay now is for them the fail. I can't do much(spread bad word of mouth about their future titles (if they even last that long) and retell how shittily they fired off a few dozen people)but I'll do what I can.
Fuck Interplay.

Re:Interplay wants to make money, not games

[bishiraver]

What's sad, is that while BioWare kept the IP to Neverwinter Nights, et al, Black Isle Studios' developers have lost the Fallout title. Hopefully they reform an independant development house, and make more great games for us to enjoy.. Until then, godspeed to BIS.. my wishes are with them this holiday season. I would go out and buy a copy of Fallout/Fallout2 bundled set from [insert local game dealer that would carry it here], but I'm sure the good folks at BIS would never see a cent of that.

NOOOOoooo...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah... I'm sitting here crying now. Fallout 1&2 are the two best RPG games i've ever played. Great story, great atmosphere, great artwork.

Interplay and the fututre.

[DS-1107]

So Interplay have decided to go all out console in the future, already planning for Fallout Brotherhood of steel 2 aka FO PoS 2 - before the first have launched.

the problem is of course that they lack capital, and besides that are tangled up in various courtbattles delaying their X-mas games (FoBoS and Dark alliance 2) to january, not to mention jefferson that was canned due to IP problems with wizard of the coast. IPLY needs cash badly, and must stop it's own bleeding at the same time - and they simply decided that PC gamers can screw themselves, and jumped for console only.

Forget quality games from IPLY in the short future they have left, they need to milk everything they still got just to keep running and that will probably only last an other year.

too bad about FO3 though, I was somewhat hoping for that game to come Q4 next year.

that's a damn shame...

[jermyjerm]

Fallout 2 and Baldur's Gate 2 were excellent games, had great stories and sense of setting, and were largely free of the type of cheesy melodrama that seems to have overtaken console RPGs. I hope their type of deep RPG experience doesn't die with Black Isle, but I fear it will.

What about...?

[Squeeself]

Black Isle are particularly known for work on the Fallout series, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment. What about the Baldur's Gate series? Aren't they particularly known for that as well, considering it's one of the top RPGs? It's definately sad to see Black Isle go. They've made some quality products that I'm sure will be considered among the best classic games.

Re:What about...?

[aka1nas]

Black Isle Studios did not make Baldur's gate. Bioware made baldur's gate and licensed the infinity engine to Black Isle via their then-current publisher Interplay.

Re:What about...?

[lunar_legacy]

Baldur's Gate series acually developed by Bioware. Bioware's Infinity engine has been used for both Planescape and Icewind Dale series.

Re:What about...?

[Squozen]

Black Isle published Baldur's Gate but had nothing to do with the programming of it.. that was all Bioware up in Canada.

Re:What about...?

[Zak3056]

What about the Baldur's Gate series? Aren't they particularly known for that as well, considering it's one of the top RPGs?

The Black Isle logo in on Baldur's Gate, but the actual work was done by Bioware.

So no, they're not particularly well known for that. :)

Quite a loss

[Chapparal]

The loss of BIS is a pretty big one. Although they really haven't realeased a lot of great games recently, they'll be sorely missed, especially as the creators of Planescape: Torment, the first game in a long while to actually be intriguing with the whole "Woke up with no memories" bit.

It's held up for 4(or 5) long years as the best RPG of all time IMO. For using such an old bioware engine, it's actually held up quite well. While graphics were never its strong points, the story alone is worth the purchase. I don't mean to plug it or anything, but if you have yet to play it, and consider yourself an RPG fan, drop 10 bucks and pick it up at any store that sells PC games.
And remember, for all Your P:T needs, The Pit: http://torment.db-forge.com/

Re:Quite a loss

[sowellfan]

Unfortunately, you can't find Planescape: Torment at any stores that I've been able to find. The only places I've been able to find is Ebay.

Re:Quite a loss

[PainKilleR-CE]

I bought it at WalMart and still see it there from time to time in the cheap section.

Re:Quite a loss

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you can get it from Interplay's online store, can't you? Of course, after this, I won't be shopping there anymore.

Re:Quite a loss

[Dasaan]

There is a project on sourceforge that I've been keepng an eye on who's goal is to create an opensource alternative|replacemant IE engine.
So far there is very basic support for BG(1|2), IWD(1|2) and very, very basic support for PST.
As yet the games are unplayable, but the progress seems to be pretty rapid considering there are only a couple of developers at the moment.

The best part is that its multiplatform and is compilable under linux.

Black Isle been on the ropes for awhile

[DrMrLordX]

The only three "true" Black Isle titles were Fallout, Fallout 2, and Planescape: Torment. All were great, of course, but the Baldur's Gate series and NWN were more Bioware titles really. And uh, they weren't of the same calibre either. Don't get me started on Lionheart. That sucked *)

Re:Black Isle been on the ropes for awhile

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get me started on Lionheart. That sucked *)

ya.. they said its the fallout skill/combat model..
imagine my surprise when it turned out realtime with more monsters on a spot than diablo2 :(
wasnt made by BIS tho..
and dont get ME startet on that 3d fallout crap D:

Re:Black Isle been on the ropes for awhile

[smugbastard]

Fallout wasn't a "true" Black Isle game, because Black Isle wasn't actually around when it was released. I think the first real Black Isle game was Baldurs Gate, but don't quote me on that.

Re:Black Isle been on the ropes for awhile

[rpillala]

What about Icewind Dale and II? Had something changed at BIS by the time those came out?

Ravi

Console only...

[Yuioup]

Console only is the word of the day now.

Is this the beginning of the end for PC games?

Yuioup

Re:Console only...

[EulerX07]

I have to disagree. To me it seems that "cross-platform" is the word of the day. I have no worries that in the future years games will be released for PS3, other future consoles and the pc at the same time.

PC's will still be the resolution and frame rate kings. Of course we'll still pay our graphic cards more than what a new console is worth, but I guess that is beside the point. Right?

Re:Console only...

[Junks Jerzey]

Is this the beginning of the end for PC games?

No offense intended, but where have you been? This slide started back in 2000 or so. The number of PC developers dropped dramatically, many of them switching entirely to consoles. Even Blizzard is doing a console-only game.

Re:Console only...

[Nf1nk]

Cutting edge PC games will suffer, but I feel that losing major publishing and dev houses to consoles will contiue to make PC gaming a place where small independant teams can make a game have reasonable commercial success, be bought out and... rinse lather repeat

Re:Console only...

[CronoCloud]

Actually Blizzard was a console developer (Lost Vikings, Rock and Roll Racing) before it went PC only They are simply "returning to their roots"

Took them long enough though, I've emailed them a few times over the past year saying, "Hey how about a PS2 port of Diablo 2. Look at how well regarded the PSone port of Diablo was and look how well Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance did."

No response.

And now there are FOUR games using the BGDA engine coming out (Champions of Norrath, BGDA 2, A bard's tale game and a Fallout game) and one of them at least (Champions of Norrath) has internet play.

funny story

[goon america]

I once has a robot like this... thing was, for some reason the think only wanted to read Tom Clancy novels. It was weird.

Good night, BIS

[klin]

A sad bit of news right before I head to bed.

I believe Planescape: Torment revolutionized the world of RPG, and not enough people noticed.

I am pretty much a console gamer now, and I've yet to see any console RPG with the level of writing that PS:T possessed. Many games pose themselves as epics, yet feature nothing but shallow dialogue, psuedo-philosophical ramblings, and CGs aimed at horny high school kids.

What may change the nature of a man? This question ran the risk of cliche, but it was interwoven so tightly into the game system and writing that the premise took fantasy role-playing to unmatched heights. Morte, Annah, Nameless..you shal be missed.

Yeah, then there were those Fallout games, too.

So long, Black Isle.

Re:Good night, BIS

[EulerX07]

A good proof of that is Star Wars:Knights of the Old Republic. KOTOR is sensibly Planescape:Torment in the star wars universe with a 3d engine and a star wars story. As far as dialogue, interaction with party members and feel they are really similar. Hell, even the "memory" aspect of planescape is there, but I'd feel bad to spoil.

Re:Not only are we

[Bastian]

But we have been for several years now.

Nothing is safe. If it doesn't allow for multiplayer or MMO, it's not marketable.

Not really much room for developing a storyline, plot, or what have you when you've got your hands full enough just trying to keep your servers from crashing under the load of a few thousand players all sitting around doing nothing but whining about how everyone else is a n00b, and whatever is left over is devoted to trying to keep on top of the cheat freaks.

guess at least now we can catch up on our reading lists.

Perhaps the Myth III guys can do something...

[teamhasnoi]

That would be swell, new games built off the old engines by people who love them. It sure would be nice for the shortsighted people at Interplay to release a 'level editor' for Fallout/2. I would so love to make my own storyline.

Of course they won't, since that wouldn't make them any $$$. (and it probably is an ugly kludge, too.) Bastards.

I've been looking for the mac versions of Fallout since I got my PB. Anyone know where I could find them?

The bright side is that we can look forward to more Final Fantasy/Serious Sam ripoffs. Huzzah!

Re:Perhaps the Myth III guys can do something...

[Slack3r78]

Ask and you shall receive:
Fallout Level Editor

Black Isle actually just released it a few months ago.

Re:Perhaps the Myth III guys can do something...

[Anonymous Coward]

yes invlolve the myth III guys so they can threaten community sites with the DMCA as what happened here http://www.mariusnet.com/index.php?date=2003112112 4830
or get another myth mod making group shut down like what happened here http://www.mariusnet.com/forum/index.cgi?read=1408 0

Re:Perhaps the Myth III guys can do something...

[alixnet]

MacPlay has both Fallout & 2 for OSX. There is no Fallout2 for OS9 - but there is a very hard to find Fallout for OS9.

Its good and bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Its sad to see the loss of a great series such as fallout...

But on the good side i will now beable to compleat my degree wiht out worring about fallout 3 taking over my life as 1 and 2 did.

Heartbreaking, but not unexpected

[ctrl-alt-elite]

While it pains me greatly to see the passing of the company responsible for stealing so many hours of my teenage years, it doesn't come as much of a surprise. Black Isle has been going downhill since BioWare came into the game, and their games, while always being a bit ahead of Bioware's in terms of quality, never seemed to sell as many copies.

Planescape: Torment is a great example of this. Torment to this day remains one of the best games I have ever had the pleasure of playing, and it stands as perhaps the deepest roleplaying experience and certainly the most powerful game that I have played. According to BIS's sales figures from a couple years back, Torment had sold around 300,000 copies. While no slouch in the sales department (it certainly got them in the black), it wasn't quite up to the sales standards set by Bioware with the Baldur's Gate saga (also a great series of games, but nowhere near as powerful as Torment).

From there, it was downhill. Project after project was cancelled (including Torn, which looked to be a sweet 3d CRPG with all the reactivity and depth of Torment but with a snazzy 3d engine and the Fallout SPECIAL system), until Black Isle was stuck with a sequel to Icewind Dale (using the aging 2d Infinity Engine of the original Baldur's Gate in the era of 3d Neverwinter Nights and Morrowind). Then there was Lionheart, which took some of the elements of the cancelled Torn and tried to turn it into a decent game. What happened was an Arcanum-esque RPG: a great concept (a historical fantasy game that infused magic in the time of the Crusades) but with poor execution and an even worse engine and interface.

I hate to say it, but it looked like BIS was going to shut down since Interplay got bought out by Titus Interactive several years back. They just don't have the sales numbers to appease high-level marketing execs, despite their innovation and depth. The one silver lining of this predicament is the fact that other companies can now have a crack at some of the talent that has graced BIS for years. This could bode well for the phoenix-like CRPG industry if dev houses utilize this influx of great minds. An RPG fanboy can only hope...

Re:Heartbreaking, but not unexpected

[duffhuff]

including Torn, which looked to be a sweet 3d CRPG with all the reactivity and depth of Torment but with a snazzy 3d engine and the Fallout SPECIAL system

Read this Gamespot Article for the full skinny on why Torn was cancelled. Maybe cancelling it wasn't so bad after all.

Re:Heartbreaking, but not unexpected

[0111 1110]

Yeah, you're right. A sequel-in-spirit to Torment with Chris Avellone, Dave Maldonado, and John Deiley all working on the most immersive, story driven, CRPG since Torment, would have been a very BAD thing.

The same sour grapes enthusiasts who were claiming that cancelling Torn was a great decision (and not in a business sense) are now claiming that the closing down of BIS entirely could only be a good thing.

I guess the closing down of Looking Glass Studios could only have been a good thing too, even though, until the recent Arx Fatalis (although I don't doubt that LGS could have done a much better job), no one has since produced a game in the way that LGS might have had they continued with CRPGs.

The only hope for Torment and Fallout fans is that Avellone (who left BIS some months ago) and Maldonado have both expressed a fondness for making more in depth, complex, immersive, story-driven games like PS:T. Even Feargus Urquhart, the ex-president of the BIS division who rumour has it is now starting a new game company, was interested in some kind of sequel-in-spirit to Torment. All they wanted was another opportunity, which Iply clearly had no intention of giving them.

Van Buren

[understyled]

i stumbled onto this a while ago after hearing somewhere about Van Buren.
when Mr. Sawyer left Black Isle, i had a feelin sumthin shitty was abrew :(

A lot of people would have bought Fallout 3

[nnnneedles]

I got a lot of gamer friends and they all are die hard Fallout fans. It seems a game like that just couldn't miss!

Many, many gamers think fallout/fallout2 was the best game they ever played! How could they cancel this. Was it really that crap?

FUCK!

[Shihar]

God fucking damn it!!!!! FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK. Ok, it is out of my system.

BIS was by far my favorite studio. Fallout, Fallout II and Planescape: Torment were my three favorite games of all times. Does anyone remember the end of the original Fallout? That ending was one of the few endings that left an emotional impact upon me. The ending as simply amazing. As he is walking away to that song I felt my gut twist in a knot and left me choking. Ahh hell, I admit it, I was getting watery eyed as he was walking away from the vault with his head down to that old bluesy song. No game had ever done that to me before. To this day hearing that song twists my gut into a knot.

Don't get me wrong, I love games today, but I have had none that made really knocked my socks off. War Craft III has great game play an all, but I have never felt any emotion while playing that game other then annoyance at the bastard over battle net you managed to raise an army and level his hero to 10 in five minutes. Fallout and Torment had an emotional effect like a good book. Nothing in these past couple of years has effected me like that.

I know I sat drooling over the prospect of Fallout III. I simply loved that entire setting. If anything, I was always supremely disappointed that BIS never ran with the title. I would loved to have seen a Fallout FPS or MMORPG.

On that note, does anyone know who the rights to the Fallout title goes to? The studio might be dead, but I would be surprised if someone picked up the rights and a few of the original creators and intend to run with it.

Re:FUCK!

[Mike Buddha]

Dude, chill. Everyone responsible for Fallout left years ago to form Troika. Pick up Arcanum and wash your mouth out with soap.

Re:FUCK!

[SpooterMM]

"I would loved to have seen a Fallout FPS"

You're welcome

Re:FUCK!

[Anonymous Coward]

what, you never played System Shock 2 or Theif ? Both were quite emotionally draining, IMHO.

Re:FUCK!

[jbayes]

I thought the music was great in the Fallout series as well. Does anybody know the title of the track that played in San Francisco's Chinatown in Fallout 2?

On a different note, was anybody else as disappointed by Fallout: Tactics as I was?

Questions....

[fluxrad]

Is this going to delay Half-Life 2? How about Doom 3? Halo 2? GTA 4? GT4? Warcraft 4? The next M$ RTS? Then who gives a crap?

As sad as I am to see another game maker go under, the fact of the matter is that the studios that stay alive are the studios that sell games. So what if a few thousand fans are pissed. I'm pissed that I don't get to watch "Undeclaired" any more - that doesn't mean it wasn't cancelled for a good reason.

Enough fans buying a game == the studio makes more. Obviously BIS wasn't that great of a game maker.

(PS - this is not a troll - just one gamer's opinion)

Re:Questions....

[Shihar]

I think the reason why you see such a large reaction is because all of the games you listed while great, are empty. BIS made games that affected people like novels. The ending of Fallout blew me over. The story and character development (and I am not talking about levels) for Planescape: Torment was just awesome.

Doom, Halo, GTA, Warcraft, and all of those games have an entirely different sort of appeal to me. I don't look at those games like good books. To me they are like action movies. The are without a doubt fun, but I play them in a very detached manner. The ending to the original Fallout left me choking and getting watery eyed. The ending to Warcraft or Half-Life just made me shrug and wonder when the sequel was coming out. Don't get me wrong, I love those games, but for entirely different reasons.

The point certainly is valid that such companies need to make money. BIS made some great games, but they also made some real bombs. The fact that they did a poor job on the financial end doesn't invalidate the quality games they did put out. Hopefully someone will come along pick up the pieces and package it into something more financially sound. I am still going to miss BIS though, despite thier suckage when it comes to making money.

Re:Questions....

[CrystalChronicles]

"Enough fans buying a game == the studio makes more. Obviously BIS wasn't that great of a game maker." I agree that the more the studio makes the more likely they're keep the company going but the logic to your second part of that sentence is flawed. sales != quality

Re:Questions....

[fluxrad]

BIS made games that affected people like novels.

I don't want games to affect me like novels. I want novels to affect me like novels. I want games to entertain me in between.

Re:Questions....

[Shihar]

If you don't want a game that you have an emotional response to then clearly you are not the target audience. So what?

The point was not that the games played like a novel. They didn't. They played like games. The difference was then when you get to the end of it and all was said and done, instead of shrugging your shoulders and idly wondering when the sequal was going to come out, you could have an emotional response. That is a good thing. If you can make something that has all the perks of a game put the emotional response of a novel, you have something special on your hands. BIS did that at least twice for me.

If a developer gets done making a great game with wonderful game play, and at the end people are touched by it in some way, then that developer wold have to be an idiot to try and pull that content. No sane developer is going to go, "Wowa... hold on a second boys, that plot has people having an emotional reaction. Can we dumb this down a little?" Having great game play and a powerful story is a good thing, not something to be avoided as you seem to suggest.

Re:Questions....

[Clover_Kicker]

Have you played any of those games? Pick up FO or PS:T in a bargain bin for $10, you might change your expectations of how a game entertains you.

Re:Questions....

[PainKilleR-CE]

"Wowa... hold on a second boys, that plot has people having an emotional reaction. Can we dumb this down a little?"

Which is more or less what Interplay did, and why we've got Fallout Tactics and the coming Fallout BoS and even BoS 2 starting development.

Re:Questions....

[Anonymous Coward]

Guys,

the reason the industry is f*cked is because it is now following essentially the same model as the record industry - the labels give advances to artists, and then resell their products. This has resulted (no big surprise) in the same industry dynamics: hypercompetition, which means that the costs of making a hit have risen exponentially.

The problem is that neither party has any risk-mitigation mechanism, and so the labels will increasingly make less and less risky games as the market matures, to grab a bigger portion of it with greater certainty, to recoup exponentially growing costs. CEG just tried to do this, but it didn't work out.

Umair.

Re:Questions....

[0111 1110]

Then consider yourself lucky. 99% of games produced today are made just for you. I don't have a problem with that, but I cannot be entertained by a game that does not deeply immerse me in its world and give me some reason to do what it wants me to do.

I don't know if it's an age thing or not. When I was a teenager, I was able to enjoy shoot-em up games with no story whatsoever. I played countless hours with Castle Wolfenstein and Archon, and then later with Wolfenstein 3D, Duke Nukem and Doom, before starting to get tired of the whole run around and shoot things kind of game. Doom II was really the last action game that I ever enjoyed. By the time Quake appeared those kind of games already made me yawn just thinking about them.

The kind of games I like tend to be much more expensive, difficult, and time consuming to make. Some of my favorite games are: Planescape: Torment, Ultima Underworld I and II, Elder Scrolls: Arena and Daggerfall (but not Morrowind), Might and Magic 6,7, and 8, Fallout 1 and 2, Baldurs Gate 2, and recently Arx Fatalis. Also Black and White and Icewind Dale get honorable mentions.

It's not that I like D&D settings or RPGs so much per se. I like to use two words to describe the difference between these types of games and the latest, greatest DOOM clone: Immersion and Complexity (in the sense of a reality simulation).
A small illustration is the differences between the old Castle Wolfenstein game and the more modern versions: Wolf3D and RTCW. While the graphics of the original were very bad, there were more options than just shooting. You could knock out walls with grenades and stick a gun in the back of a guard and take his ammo and (I think) weapons without having to kill him. This is what I mean by complexity: having more of the same choices that you would have in the real world.

Re:Questions....

[Anil]

I wouldn't just rule out an entire class of games just because they are first person shoot-em-ups. The genre has evolved a bit.

pick up System Shock 2 in a bargain bin. It is possibly my 3rd favorite PC game of all time. (under FO2 and FO ... I apparently really need to play PlanetScape after all this chatting up). hmm. Maybe 4th favorite. Jagged Alliance 2 is really great, too.

Re:Questions....

[0111 1110]

I have played System Shock 2 a great deal. I didn't like it as much as Thief, but it was fun for a while. As always the sameness of just running around shooting everything really got to me. By the end I was using cheat codes for unlimited ammo and shooting things just for the sound effects.

I would place System Shock 2 a bit higher than the average FPS. It has a bit more complexity and immersion.

FPS devs seem to be paying more attention to immersion and complexity these days. I will be interested to see if even the story-hostile Carmack actually does make an effort to create a deeper, more immersive game with Doom3. I predict that such efforts will always lead back to Doom clones eventually due to the additional cost and time involved in creating complex, immersive game worlds.

Re:Questions....

[fluxrad]

The difference was then when you get to the end of it and all was said and done, instead of shrugging your shoulders and idly wondering when the sequal was going to come out, you could have an emotional response.

The best example of this is the Metal Gear Solid series. They're basically games that play like movies. They're also some of the top selling games of all time. Also look at the story lines in games like GTA.

I'm not saying BIS was a shit game developer, in fact I couldn't say that since I've never played any of their games. I'm just saying that these guys were not Id software. I'm glad you liked their games...but it's relatively aparent that the vast majority of gamers didn't.

And I, for one, am starting to get sick of the "boo for us" threads coming out on these kinds of stories. 99% of these posts are all self-congratulatory at best.

Re:Questions....

[pNutz]

No, they were no id Software. They were Black Isle Studios.

Stanley Kubrick was no Quentin Tarantino. Kids like yourself probably think the latter is the better filmmaker. Enjoy your consensus. May you continue to run your life by it.

Re:Questions....

[Anonymous Coward]

games are more complicated to develop than records in that, with music, the songs are already written when the artist is signed. true, the recording process has a large effect on the outcome, but it doesn't affect the basic melody. a plethora of different things can go right or go wrong to make a game fun or not so fun. i'm sure lionheart sounded like, probably was, a really good idea when it was originally pitched, but something, somewhere went wrong in the execution. they paid attention to the wrong details, or it was shipped before it was ready, or the guy who was responsible for the story got hit on the head too hard a third of the way through and for some reason they couldn't fire him so they had to let him finish as best he could and compensate by turning it into an action game. these are things that can't happen in music (unless you count drug overdoses the same as getting hit on the head).

anyway, i've already stolen the source code for fallout three and have an army of polynesian pygmies working on it (monkeys...typewriters...pygmies) cloistered away on marlon brando's island in the south pacific. so worry not!

Re:Questions....

[fluxrad]

Stanley Kubrick was no Quentin Tarantino. Kids like yourself probably think the latter is the better filmmaker

Hmm...Ironically, you're not too far from the case (although, also ironically, you have no idea how old I am). While Kubrick made masterpieces like Full Metal Jacket, The Shining, and A Clockwork Orange he also made some real crap ala Eyes Wide Shut and (IMNSHO) 2001: A Space Odyssey. Tarantino has only made 4 films, all of which are extraordinary examples of the use of dialogue in film. I don't think Tarantino is necessarily the better filmmaker, but I would probably call him equal.

Enjoy your consensus. May you continue to run your life by it.

And I, too, hope you enjoy your "things are more cooler when they're underground" lifestyle.

Re:Questions....

[fluxrad]

"Also Black and White..."

*cough*sucked*cough*

Re:Questions....

[pNutz]

I'm really not sure what I've mentioned that's underground...

Stanley Kubrick? Not really a little known European filmmaker. Black Isle Studios? They've sold millions of highly-rated games.

This hardly makes them underground.

Wtf!?

[cREW oNE]

How can they do this!? Looks to me that Interplay, Activision and Eidos are playing some game of who can shut down the most and best game studios.

I lost count of good gaming studios that got the axe lately. And at the same time drivel like Tomb Raider 7 hits the shelves :(

Sad panda's all around the world!

Re:Wtf!?

[Anonymous Coward]

hey now, Activision is churning out quality

Interplay has Bioware. They don't need Black Isle

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at Bioware's runaway success with Neverwinter Nights and Knights of the Old Republic.

Who needs Black Isle, whose latest title, Lionheart, got stinking reviews.

Black Isle's titles will probably be handled by Bioware from now on. They did the Baldur's Gate games before anyway.

Hopefully Bioware will pick up some of the Black Isle employees because of the closeness of the two companies.

It makes you a little sad, though, to think the media drooled itself dry over the mediocre Neverwinter Nights adventure despite serious flaws in the engine and simply an amatuerish story and then didn't give Lionheart much the same chance. I think people forget it was Bioware that brought us Baldur's Gate, Bioware just coded it up for them.

RIP western video games

[dankdirk77]

This is truly another nail in the coffin of video games development in the west (US, Canada, UK). Granted, there are still a few good ones, but maily just lifeless lawyer filled corporations like Activision, Acclaim, EA, etc. that drain creativity and punish refinement. Heck even our consoles are dying (US/Europe: Xbox, Phantom, N-Gage).

So its times like this I'm glad to be a fanboy of Japan! Sammi's taking over Sega; we got Capcom, Konami, Tecmo, Taito, Square/Enix, Sony, Bandai, Koei, etc!! And the consoles are awesome too (PS2, PSP, GBA-SP, DC, etc)!! I know I know, off topic; flame bait; but its the wave of the future we are just seeing evolution in action.

Re:RIP western video games

[Anonymous Coward]

RTFA. Interplays switching to console-only games so what you'll probably see is more western video games.

Re:RIP western video games

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is truly another nail in the coffin of video games development in the west (US, Canada, UK). Granted, there are still a few good ones, but maily just lifeless lawyer filled corporations like Activision, Acclaim, EA, etc. that drain creativity and punish refinement. Heck even our consoles are dying (US/Europe: Xbox, Phantom, N-Gage)."

You have a point about Western developers. The good ones just can't get a break from stupid Western publishers, can they? And the gamers suffer.

But, the Xbox isn't dying. It was DOA, and Microsoft has been propping it up, Weekend at Bernie's style. Should Microsoft bury it, for profitability's sake? Of course, but they won't. Like Bernie, it gets them into all the cool parties.

"So its times like this I'm glad to be a fanboy of Japan! Sammi's taking over Sega; we got Capcom, Konami, Tecmo, Taito, Square/Enix, Sony, Bandai, Koei, etc!! And the consoles are awesome too (PS2, PSP, GBA-SP, DC, etc)!! I know I know, off topic; flame bait; but its the wave of the future we are just seeing evolution in action."

Idiot. I admire Japanese gaming sensibilities as well (my collection of imports is as big as my collection of domestic games), but your gushing is pathetic. PSP fanboy? It's December 2003, how the fuck did that happen?

I can see why you might omit Nintendo from your list of pinup girls (actually, no I can't, they are the epitome of a Japanese games house gone terribly right), but come on. Big Bandai fan = 10 year old, either in actual age or in equivalent mental capapcity. Pick one. And Tecmo? Sheesh. Even Taito is pretty sad nowadays, they're basically only living off of Puzzle Bobble sales any more.

Let Interplay know

[Slack3r78]

Please, let Interplay know how you feel!

pr@interplay.com

The email I just fired off:
Dear Sir/Madam,

Let me open by saying I've been a long time supporter of Interplay, going back to the days of the old Star Trek adventures in the early 90's, and some of my favorite games of all time have been on the Interplay label. With that said, the news that Black Isle Studios has been shut down in order to pursue a console market which myself and many fans of Black Isle's titles have no interest in, I'm afraid that that relationship will be coming to an end. Interplay has demonstrated that they have no interest in me as a dedicated PC gamer, and as such, I can only assume that Interplay is no longer interested in my business.

While I'm normally not a believer in boycotts, the dissolution of one of the most talented group of developers in the industry in a misguided pursuit of the bottom line is more than I can ignore, and since it seems money is the only thing Interplay is listening to these days, I will be voting with my wallet. Perhaps those involved in the decision to cut Black Isle will comprehend the mistake they've made when the fans that have been so loyal to them move on.

Regards,
[Name witheld for Slashdot]

Re:Let Interplay know

[fadeaway]

While I think that this is horrible news (I'm a huge fan of BI), I think this is taking things a little far.

You can't fault Interplay for closing the studio down. BI wasn't making money. Interplay is a business. They can't keep a studio running on merit alone.. =P

Anyhow, I'm going to go cry for Fallout 3..

Re:Let Interplay know

[Anonymous Coward]

oooh... wow... seems like you know more about running a gaming company than interplay huh? how damn witty and passionate a letter! were you patting yourself on the back? or did you hope that would make you part of the "cool" crowd? hmm? now why don't you fire yourself off, you dumb asshat.

Re:Let Interplay know

[sqlrob]

Probably not hard.

The stock is at 7 CENTS and that's after a 10 fold reverse split a few months back.

Re:Let Interplay know

[FurryFeet]

Regards,
[Name witheld for Slashdot]

What are you afraid of, Jack. C. Turlington-Smythe?
Yeah. I work for Interplay. We didn't like your letter, so I decided to leak your real name to Slashdot. That'll show you.
Anyone else wanna mess with us?

(Yeah, I'm trolling. So, I'm bored).

Re:Let Interplay know

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's my letter:

To anyone who is listening,

Shutting down Black Isle Studios to focus on console games is a crime against humanity. This is one of the very few companies who were able to make compelling games with actual plot and depth. And you are shelving them in order to focus on the lowest form of gaming, the console. Well, your decision almost certainly means I won't be buying any more of your games.

They don't make games of depth and creativity on consoles. They don't make Fallout on consoles. They don't make Planescape on consoles. They make "Crappy Racing 3", and "Bop-em Fighters", and "Surreal Shootfest". And they make bucket loads of these same 3 games over and over again. And so will you. Because you don't want to foot the bill for creative minds. And you don't want to sell games to gamers. You want to sell games to 11 year old boys whose parents don't have time for them, so they'll lap up whatever watery slop you shovel out for them.

But there are too many companies out there shoveling out that same watery slop, and soon you won't be able to tread water any more. You'll gurgle down to the depths of gaming purgatory, and land with a wet thunk in that monochrome wasteland. And you deserve it!

Regards,

a gamer

OSS-the Rin Tin Tin of solutions.-II

[Anonymous Coward]

"Congrats to the muppet who modded this sad attempt to start an open source argument up as insightful."

And congrats to the poster that contributes nothing to a discussion. Your career in managment awaits.

Re:OSS-the Rin Tin Tin of solutions.-II

[Anonymous Coward]

And you fail to see the irony of your own post.

It's all good

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, there's always GemRB, the Infinity Engine clone :)

In fact, this is probably good news for GemRB, given that it requires the game data from Baldur's Gate or whatever :)

Re:It's all good

[17028]

It was never about the engine though, was it? It was the stories/quests, the great 2D artwork, and all the hard work that went into those. Black Isle will be missed. Now there's only BioWare left.

A new battle cry - "Remember BIS!!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Scream it as you randomly kill a console gamer tomorrow.

Re:A new battle cry - "Remember BIS!!"

[Bendebecker]

"Have you killed a console gamer today?" (to the tune of atari)

Just like Wing Commander

[ChrisReid]

This is unfortunate. Reminds me of when EA shut down the Wing Commander half of Origin.

Re:Just like Wing Commander

[Krogoth255]

Actually, thank God that EA decided to kill off Wing Commander instead of turning into the crappy cash-cows like Star Trek and Star Wars. Besides, Wing Commader franchise was going downhill since Wing Commader 3.

Re:Just like Wing Commander

[li99sh79]

Actually, thank God that EA decided to kill off Wing Commander instead of turning into the crappy cash-cows like Star Trek and Star Wars. Besides, Wing Commader franchise was going downhill since Wing Commader 3.

Oh, I don't know, WC4 was a pretty good game. It's probably the best "interactive movie" ever released, with a nicely branching storyline, a good selection of endings, and better graphics/film quality than WC3. All in all a strong game.

-sam

There may yet be hope!

[wizrd_nml]

A call to all Fallout fans:

As there are thousands of us who would love to see Fallout 3 come out, I wonder if Interplay would sell the rights to the work in progress and if a big investor, or the gaming community, would be willing to financially support the completion of the product!

I know that if a company were set up to complete the development of Fallout 3, I would be a shareholder.

Re:A huge loss with death of Fallout dxiw no good?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you saying Deus Ex 2 : Invisible War is not a good game? Doesnt compare to the first? Which ruled so hard it would take an evil-miracle to screw up two!?!

Think before you judge

[Sivar]

There appears to be quite a lot of Interplay bashing. While I will very much miss BIS, which made the Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, and Fallout 1 (my first, second, and third favorite PC games of all time respectively), Interplay is doing *very* badly in the finance department. They are laying people off because they probably can't pay them if they wanted to.
Interplay has had some terrible legal problems preventing them from releasing a next-generation 3D Baldur's Gate-type game--a game 2 years in development shelved for good because of Wizards of the Coast, or whoever owns the AD&D license this week.
Fallout 2 was reportedly to be based on the same graphic engine, but after management got excited about the >1 million unit sales of the plotless, worthless, mindless action game, Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance, and because of a number of PC failures, their management apparently became increasingly dissilusioned disillusioned with PC games.
Perhaps it never occurred to them that Dark Alliance sold because of Baldur's Gate's fine name (which it blemishes), and that Fallout: Tactics may have sold because of Fallout's pristinely good name (which it not only blemishes, but it drags through an ocean of shit in its disrespect for the founding masterpieces of the series).
Interplay has been focusing on low-quality, quick-to-develop games for their less cerebral fans, and apparently the strategy hasn't worked (hint hint Ionstorm/Deus Ex 2).
I am not happy about Interplay's woes, and some of the biggest causes were legal and not necessarily management related, but if you look at Interplay's financial statement, you would be surprised that they aren't declaring bankruptcy right now--no, that will come in mid/late 2004 when they cannot get a line of credit after defaulting on previous loans and being unable to give any clear indication of a light at the end of the tunnel.
I hope that the Fallout licence is sold to a company that has some of the original design geniuses behind it, such as Obsidian Entertainment or Troika Games

Anyone who believes Interplay's management enjoys laying people off before Christmas needs to seriously consider the concept of "hearing both sides of the story."
Never blame on malice that which you can blame on incompetance (and America's legal system)!

Re:Think before you judge

[Dunkirk]

The only problem with your analysis is that it still renders further development on my undoubtably future favorite, Fallout 3, in limbo. Interplay owns all the copyrights. Reading through some of the online chatter about the process at NMA showed that several of the people at BIS were really fired up about it, whereas management was not. Maybe people like me, who were looking forward to that game, could setup a fund drive. I wonder how much money it would take to buy the source materials that have been put into Fallout 3 so far, and turn that over to the people who still want to work on it? I wonder how many units would need to be sold to pay for those people to finish it? In this day and age of the internet, all this could be calculated and put online. If the target amount wasn't reached, perhaps the money could simply be paid to those developers anyway as a small way of getting them over the hump.

Re:Think before you judge

[Brewdles]

Fallout: Tactics may have sold because of Fallout's pristinely good name (which it not only blemishes, but it drags through an ocean of shit in its disrespect for the founding masterpieces of the series).
Fallout Tactics may not have followed the Fallout universe well (or at all...) but the fact is that the team didn't want to make a Fallout game. They had a 2d game engine and had made some sort of scrolling shooter. Interplay didn't want the game, but liked the engine. So, they payed the team to make a Fallout game. What do you really expect to happen when the team originally had no intention of making a Fallout?
Check out the Fallout Tactics postmortem on Gamasutra.com

Re:Think before you judge

[Sosarian]

> Interplay has had some terrible legal problems
> preventing them from releasing a next-generation
> 3D Baldur's Gate-type game--a game 2 years in
> development shelved for good because of Wizards of > the Coast, or whoever owns the AD&D license this
> week.

AD&D is still owned by TSR just that they got bought by Wizards which got bought by Hasbro.

Not terribly complicated, but Hasbro is big enough in it's own right that it wants to do things in house and even then only a particular subset of genres at all (mostly toys and family games).

It's not like Hasbro could have cancelled any ongoing contracts. And it's likely that any projects that had AD&D licensing had a framework/timeframe during which to complete their game. You snooze you lose.

-S

Re:Think before you judge

[Anil]

Fallout Tactics may not have followed the Fallout universe well (or at all...) but the fact is that the team didn't want to make a Fallout game.

I think he was blaming Interplay/BIS management for the exact thing you just stated, and not the development team.

I personally think the dev team did a decent job with the assignment that they were given. Tactics wasn't a great game by any means, and it didn't hit you the way a Fallout game should; but I think it was better than many give it credit for.

Re:Think before you judge

[CronoCloud]

Do you know why BGDA sold a million copies? Because it's a good game with a damn impressive graphics engine. A little short, but still a very good game. When I finished it I wanted a sequel (with internet play) so bad.

You see, there was a market for this kind of game, the PSone version of Diable was very well regarded. And when word got around through the various magazines and message boards that BGDA was a lot like it, the buzz spread. It wasn't because of the Baldur's Gate name, quite a few console owners weren't all that familiar with the PC games It was because it was like Diablo.

There are now four PS2 games coming out that use the BGDA engine, Champions of Norrath (with internet play), BGDA 2, Fallout Brotherhood of Steel and a Bards tale game. I intend on getting CoN and BGDA2 at least

Lionheart

[Anonymous Coward]

Did this have anything to do with Lionheart? I know it wasn't BIS produced, but didn't it carry the Black Isle Logo or something? Lionheart was probably a dismal failure in all regards, and may have contributed to this decision.

Fortunately for me, I've got all the Black Isle games. I even recently played through Planescape: Torment again. The sheer depth of that game is totally unrivaled.

What can change the nature of a man?

[duffhuff]

Regret can change the nature of a man.

I fully agree with you on Planescape: Torment being the greatest RPG of all time. There was a reason why Torment's storyline was so good though; the three primary writers had degrees in Philosophy, Psychology, and English respectively. You don't see that kind of talent together very often. In fact, almost every other RPG feels just like a fancy hack-and-slash game compared to Torment. The sheer depth of detail and imagination prevalent in Torment is simply staggering.

However, there is a catch. In order to play Torment properly you have to read a lot, be very thorough, and try to do it in one short go. There isn't a whole lot of combat in Torment, mostly lots of dialog and description. It's fantastically written, and can easily stand up against most fantasy novels. Getting past the initial shock of reading pages of text is difficult.

Also, in order to keep all the events fresh in your mind, it's good to play it as quickly as possible. I recently played through it again and I finished it in less then a week, which was pretty impressive considering I had midterms at the time. If you take to long, however, you can loose the focus of the story and that's an absolute killer for Torment.

Re:What can change the nature of a man?

[mcb]

agreed, torment was easily the best RPG i've ever played. the story was just incredible. i never knew that about the game's writers, but that make's a lot of sense.

to be honest, i enjoyed reading the game's dialogue more than reading a lot of fantasy novels. it was very intriguing.

Re:What can change the nature of a man?

[Khelder]

Yea, verily, if you enjoy CRPGs *at all* it is nigh a moral imperative that you go forthwith and purchase Planescape: Torment.

Neither better NPC interaction nor a more compelling story are to be had anywhere.

Favorite Nordom lines:

"Attention: Morte! Are you aware that I have six sides?"

"I estimate Fall-from-Grace to be found attractive by the male sex of over 321423 separate species. Give or take 5."

Re:What can change the nature of a man?

[IntergalacticWalrus]

And of course, the best part about Nordom was that he was voiced by the same guy who does Homer Simpson.

nice

[gamlidek]

and just before Christmas... gotta love corporations.

-jp

Damn you Interplay!

[svzurich]

Damn you Interplay! You just killed a company I believed in, and the product lines that earned you my money! I was wary when Torn was canceled, but losing Van Buren is criminal! I would like to see how you attempt to earn my PC gaming dollars now, for I am not a console owner. Reap what you have sown, for I have only badwill for you now!

Re:Damn you Interplay!

[gonzocanuck2]

Never have Boo's whiskers quivered so! His anger may be small, but it is there!

Damn it... ok, here's what we need to do:

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't met a single serious CRPGer that didn't love Fallout 1 and 2... and Planescape: Torment was nothing short of amazing, even if the combat system was a giant step backwards from Fallout's (IMO, of course.)

Tell EVERYONE you know about these games... you can still pick them up in the bargin bins, and maybe, just maybe, Interplay will consider reviving Fallout 3 if enough people show interest.

Re:Not only are we

[blincoln]

Nothing is safe. If it doesn't allow for multiplayer or MMO, it's not marketable.

I guess KOTOR, the Legacy of Kain series, Eternal Darkness, every Metroid game, Whiplash, and BloodRayne 2 don't count, eh? And those are just the ones I've actually played or am looking forward to.

While the multiplayer/MMO market is sizeable, I think that companies who bet on it to the detriment of all single-player games are going to lose in a big way.

There are too many types of game that don't lend themselves to anything other than single-player. The online experience so far also seems to be incredibly shallow, even if it is time consuming (e.g. Everquest).

A lot of people (including myself) are interested in playing through a story-based scenario at our own pace, not hunting up loot and levelling for 8 hours a day or playing FPS/RTS games on the same maps over and over.

Wrong management.

[Martigan80]

This is what happens when you have money hungry managers and shareholders that WANT their well deserved profits. I'm afraid many good businesses in the future will suffer the same fate. It is rare to see an intellectually challenging game these days. It is a shame; I think that the software industry has turned to the same marketing tactics of the music industry. Promote a song, no matter how crappy, as much as possible and make sure the public hears it at least six times a day until they are forced to buy the CD, parade the group through every merchandise avenue, then after six months make a new album or a new artist. We are getting screwed buy money hungry publishers and share holders. What ever happened to playing a game for 6 months and still having fun? Hell I still play Zues, Mechawarrior 4, and even x-com UFO defense. They are fun games! Why do I have to buy one every freaking month? If it takes that long to finish I would rather buy five or six books at the same price as the game, at least the entertainment will last longer.

Sad news, sequels, and Planescape Torment remake?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad news.

I do find a bit ironic (Alanic?) that a lot of people praise BIS for their innovation and bitch and moan about the lack of originality in games nowadays, but at the same time, what are they at the same time mourning the loss of? Fallout...TRHEE. I'm sure it would have been a good game, I would have bought it, but all the same it was a sequel to a pretty thoroughly exploited name they were working on.

OT: I have been thinking about remaking Planescape:Torment using the Neverwinter Nights engine. Does anyone know if such a project is currently underway? Googling for it brings up some pages that look interesting, but they are in Italian and Polish respectively...
Think I could get away with it copyrightwise? For instance, the original music is available from Interplay homepage as MP3, sounds even better than before. I would of course credit all the artists, give links to their current works as a free ad, and thank Interplay, but I realise the copyright holders quite likely would not allow it anyway as that would be setting a bad precedent. What I mean is, if the project ever gets off the ground, would they go to the trouble to shut me down or sue me? I would of course have the module available free for download. I doubt many would play it, so would I be a big enough target for them to concern themselves?
I haven't bought NWN yet, but might do it just to do a P:T remake for fun. Is it possible to remake the engine to do the unique things in P:T, for instance the immortality of the Nameless One, or the fact that he can change classes back and forth on the fly (not multiclass)? /Lars

rights to it are with 3 different companies ?

[gnarlin]

If you know, could you pretty please with sugar and cherry on top tell me the names of those three companies ? I have been dying to know (figuretively speaking .. of course :)

Re:rights to it are with 3 different companies ?

[shione]

Sure thing. Bits and pieces of the System Shock franchise went to Irrational Games (ex-Looking Glass developers and ans who helped bring the game to light), Ion Storm (ex-Looking Glass employees including their executive producer Warren Spector)and EA (the publishers of SS)

EA aquired the IP rights to System Shock when they purchased Origin Systems.

Re:rights to it are with 3 different companies ?

[0111 1110]

Irrational Games does not consist of ex-Looking Glass devs, although they were helped a bit by some of them. And aside from Warren Spector can you name any other Looking Glass people who work at Ion Storm? Maybe one or two others because of Warren.

Some of the original Looking Glass guys like Doug Church are not even working in the game industry anymore. I'm still waiting for an Ultima Underworld III.

Re:rights to it are with 3 different companies ?

[shione]

Helped 'a bit'? Ken Levine is the co founder, general manager and creative director of Irrational Games and he used to work at Looking Glass. Look at their US team (the link to their Australian office is down unfortunately) and count for yourself how many people used to work at Looking Glass. To say ex-looking glass employees only helped IR 'a bit' is way understating th role they're playing in making IR such a success.

Do you have a link saying Doug Church retired from the gaming industry? He's credited with working on 'Backyard Wrestling: Don't try this at Home' and that only came out this year. Its also rumoured he's working closely with Warren to bring System Shock 3 to light.

The screen shot page is trying to say something

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.interplay.com/fallout2/screens.html

Did anyone else notice the two other pictures there? The one with the guy stabbing the other guy in the back. And uhh that one with the guy and the giant bag of money? They are trying to tell us something from beyond the grave!

planescape bigger than baldurs gate?

[inf0c0m]

i always thought the baldurs gate series was larger than the planescape series....just wondering how that doesnt get a mention.

Re:planescape bigger than baldurs gate?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no planescape series. There was only one game: Planescape:Torment. Baldur's gate on the other hand was a series. Baldur's Gate I +expansion pack and Baldur's Gate II.

Oh, and btw, Torment is infinitely better than anything in the BG series and on par with Fallout.

Re:planescape bigger than baldurs gate?

[Dinosaur Neil]

Yeah, there was only the one Planescape, but two BGs, each with ann expansion pack. I enjoyed planescape well enough, but when I think BIS, it's Baldur's Gate that comes to mind...

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the Eyes! Rahhrrrg!"

Re:planescape bigger than baldurs gate?

[PainKilleR-CE]

Baldur's Gate doesn't get a mention because it was developed by Bioware and published by Black Isle. Therefore, Black Isle didn't develop BG, and it doesn't get mentioned, except by the 50% or so of the people here that don't seem to know who created BG and it's engine.

Re:Black Isle's Ethos

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, this was modded interesting? Sounds more like a troll to me. whatever

It sucks that BIS is gone now, I was really hoping for a fallout 3

It was also

[Sycraft-fu]

One of the first, no, probably THE first, RPG I'd ever played that really captured something of the pen and paper feel. By that I mean that it was actually possible to role play to an extent. It had a rich and well developed story which, by necissity, means a prescripted one (at least with teh technology of the day), but it was one that had multiple paths you could take, and ones that were quite different. It was actually possible to be a largely non-combat character and to succede in the game and have fun doing it.

I mean so many CRPGs are just combat games. That's all you do, is fight. Ya, ok, that's fun and all, but one of the cool things about a pen and paper RPG is you could have a story any way you liked it. Your character could be a complete wimp, and you could still have a fun and challenging story. Well no game has ever really captured that given that it's almost impossible to match the flexibility of a human controlling something, but Fallout was the first game I ever played that seemd to make a genuine attempt. It wasn't a game where my choices were "guy who kicks ass with sword" or "guy who kick ass with magic" and such, I could actually be a guy that didn't kick ass, and still succede.

I have been waiting for the death of Fallout

[gumbysworld]

I have been waiting for the death of Fallout. I hate fallout with a passion. I hope that game never see's the light of day again.

Oh no!

[DJTequila]

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced

I almost went Console

[HerbieStone]

Totally agree with you about your post. This year I almost switched to console because of the patching-party one has to go through. I wonder how my fellow gamers without broadband connections pull this through. This and the fact that many gaming shops don't host their patches anymore, instead they link to so-called mirrors where one needs to sign up to download those damn things! Thanks, but no-thanks, I won't sign-up for such crap. Thanks to p2p, to help me out here. CS-1.6 whould have been nightmare without it. Again I wonder how other people who just want install their game out of the box and just (rightly) expect them to work do this.

The only reason I buied a new PC instead of a console was, because I like to play with my clan on LAN-Parties. I wonder how long until Console will catch up there and provide Consoles with Lan-Party "Support"

Re:I almost went Console

[PainKilleR-CE]

The only reason I buied a new PC instead of a console was, because I like to play with my clan on LAN-Parties. I wonder how long until Console will catch up there and provide Consoles with Lan-Party "Support"

They already do. Halo supports play over LAN on the XBox, PS2 games can use the network adapter for LAN play, and Nintendo's shipped two titles (Mario Kart and Kirby's Air Ride) that support LAN play. Of course, you have to have a TV for each console, but then a 20" TV costs a hell of a lot less than a 20" monitor (and you can usually find someone with a couple of TVs large enough for split screen play for 2-4 players).

The only real question is when it will become standard for games to support LAN connections, rather than being either single player only or internet play being the only option for the network connection. The practice of putting 2-4 controller ports on a console and supporting them in most games has pretty much put consoles on a slightly different track from PCs when it comes to multiplayer gaming, as PC gaming had the LAN games first, and then people tunneled them over the internet until internet support became standard.

I know that even the XBox is easier to bring around to a LAN party than my computer (though with some of the newer form factors that can be changed).

Bad News...

[Jaysyn]

... This is horrible. I was anticipating Fallout 3 to be a really great game & now, knowing how suits work, it will never see the light of day. Fallout 2 & Torment are still the best "computer" role-playing experience around. Maybe we'll get lucky & Troikia (the company that made Arcanum, another great RPG) will pick up the Black Isle's ex-devs.

Jaysyn
(proud owner of every one of Black Isle's RPGs)

Re:Not only are we

[Lol the unbeliever]

You wrote:
"The online experience so far also seems to be incredibly shallow, even if it is time consuming."
Have you ever tried Neverwinter Nights in a properly organised game with DM(s) online ?
No single player RPG will ever reach that level of quality.
check it out!

Saw this coming for years.

[dolo666]

I saw this coming for years. Black Isle was the only group under Interplay's banner that was producing anything worthwhile, and they were suffocated systematically by Interplay, a floundering and financially risky company.

I will always remember Black Isle in fondness, and yet I can't help but cite that the delay of Fallout 3, a suitable version comparable to Fallout and Fallout 2, has to be ultimately responsible for the dissolution of this company.

The fans have been begging for Fallout 3 for years now and Interplay and Black Isle have chosen to ignore our pleas.

The money follows the means and the message of the people.

CURSE YOU INTERPLAY!

[Anonymous Coward]

Curse you and your black soul. This is the first slashdot story that has made me cry. Black Isle was one of the best, most talented and creative teams in history, and for many fans Fallout 3 (as well as the rumored Fallout Online) was more anticipated than HL2/DooM3. I must go mourn now.

I've been waiting for Fallout3 for years

[The_Dougster]

This sucks. I wanted to play some Fallout3. Now if it does come out you can be sure it will suck. Maybe BioWare will hire some of these talented guys. I have money right here, gimme Fallout3 and the money is yours... no? Oh too bad.

Re:I've been waiting for Fallout3 for years

[Anil]

As have we all. I still replay FO and FO: 2. I guess I'll keep waiting; Maybe troika will get the license somehow.

I guess I can keep waiting. Because a few years for a new game isn't too long -- it's not as long as I've been waiting for "The Tick" #13 to come out. That's been at least a decade. Damn you, Ben Edlun. I need to know: Is one man's treasure another man's treasure?!

Both "Fallout 3" and "Tick #13" would have been nice entries on the recent "In my lifetime" poll.

Re:Good riddance to bad rubbish!

[Anonymous Coward]

exactly, thats why I'm gonna mark you 'Troll'.

Let Interplay know emails

[Anonymous Coward]

Might as let them know how your feeling:

To: PR@interplay.com; Sales@interplay.com

To Whom it May Concern:

I wish to voice my opinion of the recent dissolvement of the Black Isle Studios. I would like to lodge a protest. Not so much for the developers or other material reasons. I have fond memories of time spent playing Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. I even spend money on Fallout Tatics and found that to be disappointing.
However I had been long awaiting Fallout 3. Now that looks as it will never come to be. I doubt you will find the funds to finish this title; nor would you course let the developers finish the game under some other companies banner.
Dollars and cents all add up and management took the path that they felt benefical to the interplay company. However as a paying customer, I can also tell you that I will no longer be purchasing any interplay titles or intentionally support your company by any means.
Currently my best hopes would be that you go bankrupt on lack luster sales of your upcoming titles. Be purchased by some other company during the Chapter 11 process; and they proceed with developing of the Fallout 3 title. Not much hope but better than expecting Interplay to finish it.

Thank you for your attention to this matter

Woe is me

[Anonymous Coward]

I just built a new computer, and for what! I shall now load my new computer into my car, and drive up to the highest mountain in the area and hurl it from the edge, giving it a quick and merciful death, for it shall never know the joy of a new Black Isle Studios' game gracing its hard drive! To do otherwise would simply be cruel.

Re: OT Torment remake

[fallen1]

If the pages you are looking at are in Italian/Polish/whatever language then why not use "The Fish" to translate. It won't be perfect but it should give you an idea of what they are doing...

OT: NO!

[number6.3]

**your favorite strong oath here**

I loved the work these guys did! "Torment" is one of my all-time favorite RPG's, mostly because it was based on playing a "role" and not on hack-n-slash.

Here's a project for you guys with a lot of spare time: "Quality Watch". Keep track of the guys involved with quality work, seeing where they go. Hopefully their "quality" will rub off on the guys their currently working with...

We'll miss you, Mortie :(

Re:Not only are we

[PainKilleR-CE]

I guess KOTOR, the Legacy of Kain series, Eternal Darkness, every Metroid game, Whiplash, and BloodRayne 2 don't count, eh? And those are just the ones I've actually played or am looking forward to.

KOTOR and some of the Kain titles are the only ones on that list that've been released for the PC. Even those sold better on the consoles. Perhaps you may want to try again?

While the multiplayer/MMO market is sizeable, I think that companies who bet on it to the detriment of all single-player games are going to lose in a big way.

Sony's pretty much bet the farm on the MMO market, but only because they hit the jackpot out of the gate (EQ). EQ and the licensing fees for PS2 games is keeping Sony's entire business afloat. KOTOR is the first Star Wars game on the PC in a while that has done well without being an FPS.

A lot of people (including myself) are interested in playing through a story-based scenario at our own pace, not hunting up loot and levelling for 8 hours a day or playing FPS/RTS games on the same maps over and over.

That pretty much sums up why I have a DreamCast, PS2, GameCube, and XBox. My PC's still powerful enough to handle any game I've thrown at it, but I haven't bought a PC game in almost 6 months, whereas I buy console games at least once a month (several at a time). I would be perfectly happy to play PC games if they weren't all WW2 and counterterrorist wannabe-realistic FPS games at the moment.

Attribution

[Anonymous Coward]

The quote about Fallout 3 is actually from Blue's News.

Blue's News

Fallout 3 + Wasteland 2 - I'd pay good money!

[JonToycrafter]

Fallout 3 appears to be following in the footsteps of its spiritual predecessor, Wasteland. The Wasteland sequel never got finished, either, but there's still people like me and these folks waiting for it to get finished.

There's folks of a certain age (mine) who would pay more than an average sum of money for a Fallout 3/Wasteland 2 package from an indie company now that they're no longer "profitable". I know exactly which company I wish would do it, too...

From a gamer: heartfelt thanks to BIS

[WiPEOUT]

I have been playing games for most of my life, starting in the mid-to-late eighties. I am still a keen gamer now.

While I have played numerous memorable games on various platforms, I must thank the team at Black Isle Studios for producing what in my opinion is simply the best game of all time: PlaneScape: Torment.

Your dedication to the art of crafting amazing computer role-playing games went above and beyond the call of duty. I am grateful to have been given the opportunity to experience your masterpiece.

It's a sad day to see BIS close, but I hope that the talented individuals that comprised this team will move on to accomplish grander and greater deeds. If you decide to change the directions of your lives, please do so knowing your dedication and ingenuity has produced something so wondrous that at least one man would be happy to shout you beers all night were our paths to cross.

A heartfelt thanks like no other in my time gaming goes to you all.

(wow. that was rather sentimental, but that just goes to show how PS:T transcended the medium.)

Re:From a gamer: heartfelt thanks to BIS

[brienv]

In response to the above poster I'd just like to say "Ditto!" .

I've been playing games for 20 years and the game that had the most emotional impact is, without a doubt, Planescape:Torment. I was in awe of that game as I played... (the Fallout games also rocked, of course)

I just talked a friend into playing Planescape a few weeks ago. I think I'll wait until he's finished before giving him the bad news.

Black Isle, you'll be missed.

Brien Voorhees
brienv@pacbell.net

Wasteland rocked

[Anonymous Coward]

For its time.

Now every game is 3d, with a human in the middle of the camera.

I was actually working on a game like wasteland/finalfantasy 1... Spent 3000 hours before I let it idle. I could always fire it back up again... HMMM

Re:Good riddance to bad rubbish!

[Anonymous Coward]

haha you fail it! now that you posted you can't moderate!

Re:Bummer - MOD Down Parent

[glenrm]

Dude Bioware created Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 and Neverwinter Nights. This is not insightful at all it is wrong, sorry, your heart is in the right place but your facts are wrong. The Big Corporation didn't win over the Creative Artist, the creative artist just broke off from the Big Corporation to find another publisher to work with. Bioware has gone on to make two Neverwinter Nights expansions and Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic.

Agreed!

[Anonymous Coward]

I played PS:T after BG and IWD, and was blown away. Although the graphics look a little dated and the interface was weird, I liked the in-game library. And the music...beautiful. A lot of people complain about all the reading, but I would rather read lots than be left to my own devices in IWD. The themes of death and renewal struck home with me very hard - I finished the game (with a "good" ending) on the morning that my grand-aunt died. It was weird - I knew she had died somehow, but the phone call came much later...

Re:Agreed!

[keith_nt4]

I agree. I also loved PS:T. If fact I've made a dialog quotation my signature for slashdot. Maybe someone reading will actually get it! Oh and in my humble view I think the designers made the start of this game the way they did to scare the people who weren't serious about it. But boy the award for sticking it out! One of those drive-you-crazy endings (remember dumb and dumber? drove you crazy). If the moderators knew my sig I'd get a +3 at least. Oh well. Maybe it was just me who laughed a long time at that?

The Independent RPG, and what it needs to be born

[Anonymous Coward]

As a small indie games developer, I, like many others, got into this line of hobby/work because people don't make the games I want to play. So fine, I make my own games and sell them.

Sadly, this option is not yet available to replace BG/Fallout. Why?

1. Good RPGs are hard, and take a lot of time/effort to make, often too much for one little developer to manage on his/her own without starving to death.

Well, that can't really be helped, although if you make a large enough market clamoring for episodic RPGs (so you don't have to release the whole shebang at once) you can get past this.

2. No decent and affordable engine is available for budget developers.

There are RPG engines out there. Most of them are either ancient console style or eternally "In Development" - you find a million of them on sourceforge, but most of them never go anywhere. THere is one isometric engine for reasonably-priced licensing I've seen, but it resembles the graphics of the original Ultima Online and may not be considered cool enough for most people.

However, look at the Neverwinter Nights community.

These people are BURSTING with the desire to make RPGs. Mods can't be sold, of course. But with a decent, license-able engine...

I for one...

[Branch_Dravidian]

...welcome our new console overlords.

Fan Boy RPG Groupies

[Godeke]

And yes, I count myself as one (going back to The Bards Tale on the C64). The problem with RPG games is the amount of effort that goes into the writing of the story, generation of massive areas to explore and scripting complex game events. That last one is a killer, because we all want non-linear gameplay, but what that really means is that the developer has to write extra content that only *some* people will ever see.

For all that effort, the game is placed in a channel with a very small market footprint. Sports (including racing) and (first|third) person shooter/platform console games now rule the because they are easy to communicate to the market, and there is a market waiting to buy them. Think of how many parents who have purchased consoles for the kiddies, and are responsible for buying the game. Imagine them browsing the store shelves. Only the most dumbed down concept and straight forward message is going to make it through. "Hey, lets buy Timmy a football game."

So something like Planescape Torment, which is one of the great RPGs of the modern PC era, is completely beyond most of the market. It offends parts of the market simply by context (a game played in the realm of the gods? Pagans!) and it has an appropriately ugly box cover of the Unnamed One. You can't install Torment as a "demo" in the store, because most people would see a static isomorphic view with no action, and walk on past.

Console RPG makers learned long ago that you have to sacrifice integrity to move product. Thus console RPGs have "over the top" limit break moves, FMV of sexy anime babes and leveling treadmills that makes the D&D system look tame.

Thoughtful storylines probably should take refuge in books. The era of the gaming geek being the majority gamer is over, and so the market follows the money. All I can hope is that a few publishers will weather the storm and be willing to sell to the niche. Of course, if you want worse, you should check the health of my other favorite type of game: the turn base strategy game. Thank goodness for game boy SP: without it, that style would be extinct.

Re:Fan Boy RPG Groupies

[Maul]

I'm praying that some of the Black Isle guys will be hired by Bioware, since the two worked closely together in the past. Perhaps Baldur's Gate 3 would emerge? One can only hope.

Console RPGs are fun, but as you said, they aren't extremely involving. Especially if you're talking about FF 7+. There is hardly any thought required when you level up (no decisions to make), and you can kill bosses just by executing flashy spells, summons, etc. Square-Enix is selling FF games on character design. Look at FF12. I doubt we will ever see an FF game that is as hard or fun as the older ones (pre-FF6) ever again.

Re:Fan Boy RPG Groupies

[Monkey]

Only the most dumbed down concept and straight forward message is going to make it through. "Hey, lets buy Timmy a football game."

If you were unfortunate enough to actually watch the joke that was theSpikeTV VGA(Video Game Awards), you'll notice that a lot of the winning titles were as you mention, dumbed down concepts and mainstream pop culture related. Very few of what I thought were really good games even got nominated. An example of the winners:

• Game of the Year: Madden NFL 2004
• Best Sports Game: Tony Hawk's Underground
• Best Animation Game: DOA Beach Volleyball - (ok I'll admit the animation was pretty good)
• Best Driving Game: NASCAR Thunder 2004
• Best Game Based on a Movie: Enter the Matrix
• Best Fighting Game: WWE Smack Down: Here Comes the Pain

Out of Business Problems

[jackstraw2323]

With studios releasing games to disk full of bugs, patching all of their problems later and then going out of business, where is someone supposed to get patches for classic games? I recently re-purchased several old games on ebay and I know that patches exist, but haven't found any of them yet.

Re:Out of Business Problems

[jackstraw2323]

UPDATE: Apparently Gamespot carries some old patches if anybody cares. Unfortunately you have to sign up for marketing etc, and install their DLX p2p distribution system to get it, which incidentally looks to include some spyware, or at least unsolicited programs piggybacking on it. Is there no community archive for our gaming legacy, years from now will the classics completely fade away?

a real shame

[mcb]

in my opinion, torment was the best game i've ever played. the story was incredibly well done. i never really expected another game of torment's quality to come along, but now i guess i know for sure that i'll never see it.

Nasty-Supporting cast.

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but it does put a hole in the "Free advertising", and "It helps the artist" argument.

Busniess is like war

[Bendebecker]

Busniess. Business never changes.

Re:Busniess is like war

[Anonymous Coward]

"Busniess. Business never changes."

Neither, it seems, does the Slashdot propensity for attracting egregious personalities and frightful spelling.

YOU FAIL IT!!! HAND.

Re:Interplay has Bioware. They don't need Black Is

[Creepy]

Lionheart was rushed into completion to make an absolute deadline. Incidentally, it was contracted out to Reflexive, not made in-house by Black Isle.

I wonder if Black Isle refused to do the same thing with Fallout 3 and Interplay dropped them because of it - their lead designer left about a month ago, and the project may have been looking at delays...

I was looking forward to a non-D&D title from Black Isle - D&D makes an awful computer game system (IMO) and I loved the Fallout games. I bet 60% of the spells in D&D games never get used by anybody...

DirectX, OpenGL, SDL?

[phorm]

While the hardware is diverse, I thought that the aim of things like DirectX was to give them a common interface. I suppose the same might also apply to GL, though I'm only now delving into coding with it.

The question is, with the exception of hardware which just doesn't support certain effects, why should the game developer have to worry about it much at all? With a proper wrapper around the various hardware capabilities, the game designer should not have to be so concerned with compatability as gameplay.

And yes, I have had games that suck on certain hardware, but the fact is that they are not only the games that suck on that particular hardware (generally an overall DirectX looks like crap, crashes issue with many games).

Re:DirectX, OpenGL, SDL?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but when there's a bug or incomatibility in DirectX, and lots of people are affected, the game developer doesn't just throw up his hands and point the finger at MS. No, they work around the bug, putting in all kinds of ugly and convoluted code.

Re:DirectX, OpenGL, SDL?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

I think the problem is that these SDKs (DirectX, etc) aren't supported perfectly by hardware manufacturers. From stuff that I have read, game developers always complain that video card manufacturers implement things differently, claim to support a feature when they don't do it properly, etc.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Sad news, sequels, and Planescape Torment remak

[bnavarro]

City of Doors is a good starting point. I belive that they are creating a Planescape Campaign setting, with customized hak packs. It doesn't look like they are recreating Torment, but you might be able to capitalize on what they have already built to help you out with remaking Torment. Good luck.

but ONLY the republican ones, of course

[Anonymous Coward]

hurray!

Um, how is what they did going to improve things?

[Svartalf]

Considering that the titles that Interplay's keeping are things people have pretty much told them they DON'T want, I guess they're commiting suicide then. Fallout 3 probably would have made money and it was almost the ONLY title Interplay was going to have ready for next year's Christmas sales season (Most of the other titles are further off, etc...).

What they did here almost makes no sense whatsoever unless they truly are about to go bankrupt themselves.

FFS, it's a play on the word borg! hasborg=hasbro

[Anonymous Coward]

N/T

Game Studios

[dgagley]

It is becoming a trend. Hopefully thoes who were Black Isle (Not the Corporate owner) start a new studio. I have seen at least three great developer teams go from where they were because of conflicts due to quality versus time in the last year. We need to keep a watchfull eye out there for them to start up and support their under funded but quality work instead of the mass money no story games out there.

Does any of this start to look similar to Hollywood vs. independants?

Oh.. I still have my gold box TSR games.

Nope...

[Svartalf]

That's what a many of the players think is where the money's at.

Perhaps... Depends on what you're selling. Also depends on how you play the game.

Making console games isn't really any cheaper than PC games and doesn't guarantee your game will even sell any more than a PC game. All it does is take the hardware glitches and baseline software glitches that plague PC development disappear. And, better yet, if you really want the sales, you'll spend as much as three times as much time making 3 different versions for the three consoles out, and spend on the licenses and royalties for the same. Bet on the wrong console, end up losing money. Bet on the right one, you MIGHT sell enough units to have bothered- but most console games don't sell much better than PC titles do.

If all the current players all go console, I'm pretty sure there will be someone to take their places and be more than happy to sell PC games to someone. PC's still outpace consoles for capabilities if only because the price-points for things allow much more aggressive configurations (You don't see a 3+ GHz CPU in a game console do you? No. X-Box has a 700MHz PIII type CPU in it. GameCubes and Playstation2's have comparable processors in them as well.) and you can do push the envelope games with PCs that aren't at all practical for a Console of the current or even next generation.

To black Isle

[Wehesheit]

Give me a game to build a dream on and my im-ag-i-na-tion will thrive up-on that game.
Black-Isle, I ask no more than this,a game to build a dream on.

Give me a game be-fore you leave me and my im-ag-i-na-tion will feed my hun-gry heart.
Leave me one thing be-fore we part,a game to build a dream on___________________
When I'm a-lone___ with my rpg's, I'll____be with you,
weav - ing solo quests, mak-ing be-lieve they're true.

Give me your game for just a mo-ment and my im-ag-i-na-tion will make that mo-ment live.
Give me what you a-lone can give,a game to build a dream on.

reoccuring trend

[CAIMLAS]

It seems to be a reoccuring trend in the industry that a game company that produces good, solid - but very genre specific - games will get bought out after one or two relatively good titles. Then the developers get stuck working at a faster pace on projects which less of their vision is able to go into, and the predicament snowballs.

I've seen way too many good studios go downhill after a large, kickass release, only to disappoint with sequels because their better employees have left. Activision's Mechwarrior series is a good example of this: after Mechwarrior 2's line of games, MS bought 'em out. Now, Mechwarrior isn't even entertaining. Currently, Mech3 and Mech4 are sad mimics. While they have better graphics, their gameplay is stunted due to poor insight into how the game dynamics work, and other things of that nature. Story isn't even there, and the in-game audio is anything but satisfactory. Mech2's stuff, on the other hand, had the opposite of all that I complain about.

Off the top of my head, two more developer studios that snowballed after a couple great runs were Westwood, Blizzard and Interplay.

Blizzard kicked ass with Warcraft through Starcraft, and with Diablo 1 and 2 (so I hear, I'd rather not waste my time with such impersonal RPGs - the real thing is better. I hear single player was good, though.). Now, look at them. Their latest release, War3, sucked major goat scrotum. I hear it's because it wasn't developed by the same folks as the previous RTS releases.

Westwood came out swinging fairly strong... and then did nothing. Command and Conquer was a great game, and Red Alert was pretty fun too. But their games have done nothing but improve since then - in graphic quality. And that's about it. They've got nearly the same units, and the same AI, in almost every single game. Don't even start talking about Renegade. Urg.

Interplay created a cult following with Descent and Descent II. Descent III wasn't much of anything special - it didn't improve upon II at all, and didn't offer much in terms of real gameplay value. Sequels can only go so far without new concepts and gameplay-types interjected. A better multiplayer existence would have helped.

The state of gaming in general

[Mike Hawk]

This is very simple, please try to keep up.

1) The state of gaming is that it is more profitable to publish 3-5 major titles per year, and ship them cross-platform, than 10-15 titles.
2) The major title should be able to be enjoyed in very small bites (see Madden, THPS, and GTA) to appeal to the largest possible audience. Notice this is not a comment on the quality of these or any games, only on what the public has voted for with their dollars.

*The only exception to 1 and 2 is if you are EA and can land a major movie tie-in.

Please note that Black Isle games did not fit this description. That is all.

My letter to Interplay

[WinnipegDragon]

I am sure you are getting a lot of email about your recent cutting of the Black Isle team, and I doubt one more voice will make any difference, but I couldn't stay quiet. This is going to hurt your bottom line because all of the gamers out here who like in-depth 'brain required' games are now seeing Interplay as just another twitch-game console exclusive company who is simply no longer worth our time. I own all of the great Black Isle titles, every single one and all the expansions, and now they have been eliminated for no apparent reason. The PC market may not be the lucrative cash-cow that the console market is, but we have very few developers left that demand a purchase of their games on name alone. Black Isle was one, Bioware is another, and you have alienated yourself from this market on both counts. Interplay no longer holds anything of interest for me and many others like me. When your company folds, we will remember these decisions you have made and say 'no wonder'. For a company with your legacy, this is hardly the way I imagined I would feel five or ten years ago. It was fun while it lasted.

Re:Sad news, sequels, and Planescape Torment remak

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no way to know what "they" would do, as the financial mess at Interplay makes it doubtful who will be there.

A far better idea would be to see consent, point out that you don't have any money for an upfront payment, but agree to a percentage of any royalties you earn. (Not only should it not be a concern that you might give it away for free, you could change your mind about that.)

Gaming these days

[rpillala]

The type of game created by Black Isle had the quality where they would draw you in and make you want to keep playing indefinitely. This is a great thing for a game, because many are just behavior mods designed to keep you at your computers.

These days though, people want games that you can play for a short time and stop. Maybe pick it up again later, but not one that engrosses you to the point where you don't notice the sun coming up. I would say the money is definitely in the former type of game. People's schedules don't accommodate time sinks the way they used to. That could be a little false nostalgia.

Occasionally you'll find great titles that function for both the marathon and the casual player (e.g. Tetris or KOTOR, or certain massive online games) but it doesn't happen that much, at least in my experience.

So in addition to Interplay's troubles as a company, BIS' demise is a sign of the times.

Ravi

Baldur's Gate II

[popo]

Is *still* the best RPG ever made.

The game is HUGE, complex, beautiful. And the game's manual is still the benchmark by which all other D&D clones will be judged.

How is it that a studio with that much talent, and that many great titles can't be rolling in cash?

Re:Baldur's Gate II

[JeffTL]

Because Bioware were the actual makers of Baldur's Gate II; ergo, I imagine a lot of the money went to them and was thusly used to fund the creation of Neverwinter Nights.

Not all of Black Isle let go

[yar]

http://pub17.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm1. showMessage?topicID=1458.topic

From Sean K. Reynolds (Lead Designer, Fallout3) board:
"Hmmm, this person's info isn't totally accurate. Yes, there were some layoffs. I was not one of them, nor are several other people in the list. They may be drawing this from the group of people who went to lunch together yesterday, which included those who have been laid off and those who haven't.

Anyway, nothing new to say. I don't know why the company is doing this or what their plans are. I'm hoping to find out today.

Thanks for your concern, though. From what I can tell, most of those who were laid have already found some leads in other companies."

I hope to see...

[JeffTL]

...the GPLing of the Infinity Engine. It's largely obsolete for anything commercial, but I'd love to see a native port and various open source engine improvements of Baldur's Gate ala Doom etc.

I already HAVE thought...

[Svartalf]

What put Interplay into most of this mess in the FIRST place? Decisions like the ones that you're seeing right now. Fallout 3 was probably one of the ONLY titles they were going to be able to get out the door in a sensible timeframe for next year's lineup that could really have made them money- what in the heck are they going to sell now? Stuff that they've already gotten unfavorable feedback on, but that can be more cheaply made...

Brilliant thinking, really.

Re:I already HAVE thought...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dark Alliance 2 is really going to be good...somehow even better than #1. Hopefully they'll sell tons of them.

Opinions differ

[Anonymous Coward]

Story/quest wise it was one of the best cRPGs ever. Interface got a lot better after the patch (but then that is the story of Troika really, dont play their games until after 1 or 2 patches).

Playbalancing was a bit off for some styles of playing ... but hell, it didnt bother me.

Bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

Most bugs in games are still gamecode bugs, not specific to the interace ... yes gamestopping bugs are more irritating when they happen to you, but 9 times out of ten when you get hit with a bug it is irrelevant what PC you have.

Console games are QAd by the console manufaturers, these guys have a lot more riding on quality then your average publisher ... it is simply the fact that publishers arent allowed to push out games on consoles themselves which keeps the quality where it's at.

Re:From a RPG gamer: good riddance!

[Syrrh]

Well, the simple response would be, don't do that if the result bothers you. Yes, there are a couple exploits in both Fallout games that can provide unlimited money or experience if you drill them hard enough. If you ruin the game's fun by abusing its mechanics to boredom, it's your own fault.

Incidentally, I don't know what crazy unpatched version you were playing, but there are 5 book-learned skills, and reading can't push them past 91%. If you're playing for numbers, you're missing the point anyway. Getting Sulik to curse your existence, joking with the CoC that you're here to burn down their church, and offering candy to kids only to have them run screaming in terror... *that* is what the Fallout series is all about.

WOW

[Satanboy]

This is disheartening.

I guess I will never get my fill of Fallout 3.

so sad. so sad.

It kind of reminds me of duke (vaporware) nukem

Well maybe (oh and it is thief)

[SmallFurryCreature]

I am playing through Deus Ex Invisible war right now. First off IT IS NOT A BAD GAME.

Second. It blows. I am sorry but this game makes me hate console owners. If right now one would walk up to me he would get a full can of coke in his face. Unopened.

The game has been dumbed down. The simplest example is the quick save. It is an Unreal game. YET THERE IS NO QUICK SAVE. Plenty of other factors are dumbed down as well. Only 1 supply of ammo meaning that there is no longer falling back on a wimpy pistol after you machine gunned down the guards at the front. Flame throwers, rocket launchers, guns and stun battons all use the same ammo supply. Don't even get me started on the inventory or the hud. It is clearly made for the x-box controler. Not the pc.

Play the game by all means. As said it is not bad but it is no Deus Ex 2. Read the forums.

Thief 3 by the same studio horrifies me. Is it going to be a real successor or just another, sorry but console owners don't have a button left for quick saving so get stuffed pc owners with your 101 keyboards.

No I rather see these golden games go down gracefully. I recently played Fallout 2 and the graphics were not unplayable. I am thinking of playing fallout 1 again and afterthat Planescape Torment. Maybe I can even get System Shock 2 to work. (crashes when I enter the training area without fail)

Maybe PC gaming is dying. Hopefully games like Neverwinter will allow talented individuals to continue to give us excellent RPG's while the money is being made in the console area.

kings quest re-released

[goon]

dont forget this slashdot article (Old Sierra Games Breathe Anew) from a while back about Kings Quest being re-released -
Kings Quest 1, 2

Dear Santa....

[monkease]

fuck you, you fucking prick.

i'll christmas-list YOU.

Boring

[lazuli42]

I know I'm probably going to catch crap for this, but I thought that Planescape:Torment was actually pretty dull.

The puzzles were not challenging (and took too long to solve because of walking times), the dialogue was stiff, and the combat wasn't fun.

To be fair I only gave it a nights work before setting it aside, but I doubt that my mind would change by playing it again.

Meh.

Re:Boring

[the_mad_poster]

You have to get out of The Hive to start to enjoy it and, even then, you have to get out of Sigil before it all REALLY starts to come together. The "quests" in the Hive are kind of dull. I get the impression that the whole point of the first 5 available screens is just to build XP, coppers, and items.

Unfortunately, you're right on the puzzles. There's not much challenge there - it's basically just running around and talking to the right people in order. But, the game really rides on the storyline more than anything.

And, actually, you can get some interesting battles going and even wind up having to use some crazy tactics. In Carceri the first time, I didn't realize that there were a lot of guards in the jail. I wound up getting 4 characters backed up at the end of a hallway facing about 20 incoming guards and I was running low on healing. Through some creative shifting of characters, and spellcasting, I managed to get everybody out of the mess in one piece (barely). THAT was a very satisfying battle to come out of (better than the time I beat a 1200 unit standing army with my 300 leftover stragglers in LOTR2 by splitting the enemy on a patch of trees and cutting them up with my archers and pikemen).

I couldn't agree more

[benjaminchoate]

Planescape: Torment was one of the finest games I've ever played. Unfortunately the copy I played was pirated (I was in Russia at the time).

Even now I rarely buy games just because I can't afford to spend $50 on it. I'm really really poor. That's about all there is to it. If I could get the game for $20 then I would skip a few meals to do so, but for $50 I just can't justify it. The last game I bought was FFVII (which I bought off of eBay for $12). I bought it because I liked the game so much that I wanted to own it. I had already beaten it. Now I just don't play the games and make do with what I've got until I'm making enough money to afford them. It's too bad.

-Ben

Re:I couldn't agree more

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw torment (the 2 cd version) bundled with some other game at wal-mart for 12 bucks. It was about four months ago, though.

Patching

[lenester]

To be honest, patching is one of the things that puts PC games ahead in my book. I'll grant you, the "ship it buggy and fix it later" side of things sucks... but few companies deliberately do that. Meanwhile, other companies use patches for something much better: adding additional content. Kohan, Diablo II, and various others have become progressively better, not to mention gaining new replay value. To me, patching provides the ability to stretch my dollar investment that much further. And yeah, not many companies do it that way... but I rarely buy a game until a few months after its release anyway, and by then I can find out online which way things are going.

Don't count Black Isle out yet

[Anonymous Coward]

I know of a pen and paper author who also works for Black Isle (Sean K. Reynolds - Lead Designer (FO3)). Here is what he wrote on his boards:

"Hmmm, this person's info isn't totally accurate. Yes, there were some layoffs. I was not one of them, nor are several other people in the list. They may be drawing this from the group of people who went to lunch together yesterday, which included those who have been laid off and those who haven't.
Anyway, nothing new to say. I don't know why the company is doing this or what their plans are. I'm hoping to find out today.
Thanks for your concern, though. From what I can tell, most of those who were laid have already found some leads in other companies.

--
Sean K Reynolds
http://www.seankreynolds.com"

So the drama isn't over yet...

Great Q&A

[ZxCv]

... Putting a game through that one extra QA run probably means delaying the shipping date. Unfortunately the trend seems to be just that.. moving away from quality, towards 'assembly line' products ...

Three cheers for the developers of Duke Nukem Forever for choosing quality over 'assembly line' products!

Boring??

[Anonymous Coward]

The dialogue that revealed the story was fascinating - far and away the best I've ever seen in any computer game. The puzzles weren't hard, and the combat was only good, but those were really side issues, just like the (now-dated) graphics. The game WAS the story, how it slowly unfolded; dislike the story and you'll dislike the game, I guess.

IMHO, though, BIS did a brilliant job with P:T.

Will live on in our memories...

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Two of the best RPGs in the last 10 years came out of Black Isle. Fallout is considered by some (not me though) to be the best RPG of all time. Planescape:Torment is another excellent game (although a game bug prevented me from finishing it :( I went through 80% of it and had to quit :( ).

Black Isle will live on in our memories...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:From a RPG gamer: good riddance!

[Crazy_Vasey]

You're full of shit. Absolute shit. In the original Fallout the maximum level was 21 and the maximum skill was 200. The books won't even get you to a skill of 100, either. The ceilings were changed in Fallout 2, but the book limitation remained.