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Microsoft Is Planning To Renew IE Development
jm.one writes "In his weblog the Mozilla developer Gervase Markham (aka Gerv) points out that Microsoft is re-constituting the Windows IE team. You can save Mozillazine's bandwidth(they've been /.ed every day this week) by directly checking out this post at Dave Massy's WebLog at MSDN.
They even have set up an IE Feedback section in their channel9 wiki."
So, does this mean Longhorn will be even later?
Microsoft uses the Mozilla source code to create an IE7. No more worries about anti-trust concerns since they're working on an open, free project. Users get a stable, secure browser that's standards compliant. Users get a browser with a rendering engine that's supported across platforms. Heck, it might even be easy enough to release IE for Mac and Unix again!
Microsoft doesn't improve their products-- ever-- except in the presence of a viable competitor
So they're going to start patching security hole instead of ignoring them now?
If Mozilla Firefox hasn't achieved anything else (besides being the first web browser to be rated above IE by just about everybody), the fact that it would spur Microsoft to resume work on Internet Explorer is an interesting achievement. It, at least, will make the world a better place for WIndows users who are forced to use IE due to ignorance or because everybody uses it (that includes me).
___
internet, productivity blog
Give me full XHTML and CSS2 compliance please. Oh, and transparent PNGs.
Too much to ask?
... is promoting mozilla so they get /.ed everyday! ;-)
We now know their evil plan
I`m sorry. I mean checking. Who cold this sleep throug ,y 3 timez ckeking and thad of the ./ edithor
...would that be a good thing for Microsoft? You seem to be forgetting MSIE's purpose: As a lock-in tool to other Microsoft products. A browser which is a drop-in replacement for Mozilla-based browsers-- and thus conversely has Mozilla-based browsers as a drop-in replacement for it-- doesn't serve this purpose at all.
Suprise suprise, as soon as there appears to be some form of competition in one of the thousands of fields M$ has its hand in, then why not renew development. Whatever makes more money, right.
"Yeah capitalism." -- Austin Powers
The moment MS gets some competition in one sector they suddenly start to work on their products, after having neglected IE for years.
Dear Microsoft.
patch the holes that make malware so easy to infect a machine so my job's a whole lot fucking easier.
- every goddamn ISP tech support staff.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
I consider the recent addition of pop-up blocking in MSIE (XP SP2) bad news. Advertisers will just find more obnoxious ways to place their adds, making the pop-up blocker in Mozilla less effective.
Isn't this exactly what we wanted to happen? Microsoft realized that a competing product (mozilla, opera, etc.) is advancing at a rate that might cause MS to lose market share on the browser front.
.NET framework becomes mainstream, why care so much about IE? Maybe this is a PR move?
The positive of this is that the world gets an improved Internet Exploder^H^H^Hrer and Microsoft is adding new jobs. I think that's a win for everyone.
However, my question is why is Microsoft going to great lengths to improve Internet Explorer? Though they could lose browser market share, they haven't yet. The vast majority of desktops running Windows use Internet Explorer, flaws and all. Also, Microsoft doesn't really have much to gain by revamping IE. There's not much money to be made in the browser business anymore. It's not about the browser that is used online, so much as it is the content people are viewing. As long as Microsoft's patented
Plenty of other browers have been "rated" above IE, in the past, it is just that Netscape was the last one, pre 1999, and IE version 4 or 5.
FireFox is just the latest one, and it is still up to the test of time, and many more beta testers, before FireFox makes it to the forefront of the browser world or at least a share bigger than 1/5.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
So you ask us /.'ers to not /. MozillaZine, yet you provide THREE links to MozillaZine.
Kinda ironic eh?
Oh my, come to add more bugs into IE already? Wasn't there already enough? If Microsoft begins to develop it again could see some improvements in speed and bulkyness, perhaps some better parsing, etc. It could be a turn for the better. New features will be nice but with new features you know MS, more bugs. So I believe I will stick with Firefox.
-Rights? What rights?
Remember if the friggin' window is maximized or not!!!!
Provide user options to kill popups
Don't allow friggin' Drive By Downloads!
Support all W3C standards. Deprecate all your proprietary extensions.
The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
I can say though that somewhat vague requests for "better standards support" are not as useful as a specific example of what you'd like to see changed and specifically why it would improve things. - Dave Massey
What part of "better standards support" does he think is too vague? Does this guy need it spelling out to him or what (rhetorical question by the way)!
I should have kept quiet yesterday. ;-)
;-/
Right now, I am hacking away on an article about browser competition on the desktop and how Firefox is gaining ground. Now this! Well, looks like we have reached the point where Microsoft copies OpenSource innovation. It used to be the other way round. That's the good part. Another upside is that there is still time left. Longhorn is far away, and if SP2 is any indication than there won't be another major update to WinXP in reasonable time. But still, the giant woke up. And Microsoft is though competition to say the least...
From the blog:
I can say though that somewhat vague requests for "better standards support" are not as useful as a specific example of what you'd like to see changed and specifically why it would improve things.
Jooleem. Get Addicted.
Look at the broader picture. The proof would be in that when Netscape died and birthed Mozilla, MSIE development came to a total screeching halt, and didn't start again until the Mozilla project, after years of dicking around, finally managed to create a product (FireFox) that anyone in their right minds would want to use.
This is still just a single example, so maybe I should have used the word "evidence" instead of "proof". But when you look at the repeated examples over the years, it becomes proof.
I can't wait for OpenOffice to become a viable product so that we'll finally see the end to the total lack of improvement that has marked MS-Office development since WordPerfect died.
From using Internet Explorer on a recent Longhorn build, my prediction is that Microsoft plans to add more features rather than support web standards. Thus far they've added Firefox/Opera-esque features like a download manager, pop-up blocking, and a "Clear Browsing Records" menu option. Perhaps tabbed browsing is next? It looks like they will keep adding options until IE is comparable to its competitors, but with regards to web standards I doubt Microsoft will have interest.
All i want aside from the basics that must be add'd (more security, tabs etc) is the ability to block sites and ip's with a simple click like i do in mozilla (with plugin) if a site opens up and i see an AD i wanna right click the AD and be able to block its source which will in turn allow me more control over spyware and security.
I have used IE for all of my browsing until just recently. I downloaded Mozilla after reading an article on slashdot about the new release, and I love it.
Click for offensive t-sh
Enjoy
It's called the MPL
I'm just about nobody, because I don't like firefox very much at all.
I rate opera above firefox by far.
Unfortunately, I would believe there is a better chance that they will instead incorporate a bunch of elements above and beyond standards compliance, that ties a user into IE and Longhorn combo, trying yet again to lock out other web browsers.
Microsoft has seemingly lowered it's self another step.
They used to be a company that copied exisiting technology and made it "good enough", if slightly annoying. Now, they are turning into a reactionary company, trying to play catch up to existing software with some future release.
If you are one in a million, then there are six thousand people who are just like you.
I recall reading here on Slashdot that Internet Explorer was getting updated for Longhorn. I don't remember exactly where it was, but it quoted one of the members of the IE development team. I think Microsoft will be taking a (small) step in the right direction by supporting standards. Well, if they do. It'd be nice if Mozilla and IE actually rendered things the same way; then you'd only have to develop for one target platform. What about Internet Explorer using the Gecko engine? Maybe Internet Explorer will become one of the 'better' Microsoft products. But seriously, what would happen to products like Firefox/Mozilla if IE became totally standards compliant. I know I would still use it, but what would happen to the argument that Firefox is better than IE? Hopefully Microsoft will actually fix the bugs and have a solid product. Even though it may become a 'competitor' for Firefox, at least the average user who doesn't know more than Internet Explorer will have a usable, secure, browser.
So one person write in his weblog that he's changing roles from Longhorn to IE, and that means the team is being reconstituted? People at Microsoft change teams all the time. Some people will jump from project to project every year or two, others will stick with it for 4 or 5 years.
This is not any news of anything special. Each version, there's something new planned. Whether or not that sees the light of day is another thing.
The IE team has lived for a long time and will continue to live. The IE team is probably always changing as people move to it and other people move off it.
If someone said "I'm changing roles from Office to Longhorn" does that mean that Office is now dead and Longhorn just now got re-constituted? No. What if it's a big guy on the totem pole? No.
It's pretty obvious why a web standards compliant IE would improve things (google: web standards). Oh, but it wouldn't allow Microsoft to extend the web anymore with stupid proprietry shit. I guess they're right out the window then.
I seriously doubt IE7 will be compliant. It would be nice, for sure, but given Microsoft's history it's extremely unlikely.
"The number of Unix installations has grown to ten, with more expected." (Unix Programmer's Manual, 2nd ed.; june 1972)
You need this. Really, you do, or else you will become complacent, and Mozilla will rot. Competition is a nescesity for everyone, not just for Microsoft. Adapt or die.
Think about it.
Considering how IE is "integrated with the operating system," a new version of IE that suppresses pop-up ads could mean that Longhorn is genetically determined to be born with a passive-aggressive personality complex.
Developers, Developers, Developers
WTF!? you mean they actually stopped developing that POS? I understand someone dumping developement on something because its so fundamentally messy and flawed and crap but really thats leaving people hanging surely that should have fixed some of the more major issues before stopping developement. If IE could even just get basic CSS working I would be happy, they dont even have to fix the security holes - I dont use it, but most people do and that means sites have to work with it.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
They used to be a company that copied exisiting technology and made it "good enough" .... Now, they are turning into a reactionary company
Turning into a reactionary company? They have always been that-- reacting to the products of their competitors by releasing mediocre copies of those products. They only improve their products when forced to by superior competition that they can't buy out or kill off, but they never could be said to have actually leapfrogged their competitors.
np
Man, no Microsoft flames in comments yet. First, Microsoft perks at Mozilla source, then this. What happened to you, Slashdot?
A computer makes it possible to do, in half an hour, tasks which were completely unnecessary to do before.
I am two people removed from the team working on this (a friend of a friend); so it's possible I might be a victim of disinformation or misinterpretation. But as I understand it, this "new and improved IE" isn't necessarilly for general consumption. It is supposed to be part of a new, all-encompassing version of MSN that's maybe 3 years down the road. Basically you get the new version of Windows at that time, and MSN comes along for the ride. This new IE will only be available as part of the new MSN, which will only be available if you get the new Windows.
:-D
On a completely different subject - I can tell you that these folks (working on this new MSN) are not very happy with gmail.
#DeleteChrome
Some of the posts show interest in a browser having built-in pop-up blocking, enhanced features, ect. Check out Avant Browser here:
http://www.avantbrowser.com/
It's based on IE, but has an enhanced interface that is a power user's dream come true.
-Chris
(start quote (note the nested quote))
(end quote)
Godwin's Law, anyone?
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
You're saying it's ok if 90% of web users do not have the benefit of a pop-up blocker so as long as you have yours. And by using your logic, we're all be better off if MS kept their monopoly. Some great ideas you got there.
Little Bricklets
And Linux kernel developers will improve standards support by using the stolen source code of Windows 2000. :0)
This opens a giant can of worms, my friend. They wouldn't do this even if they wanted to.
P.S. Funny anecdote, spyware broke the Quick Search on my IE at work
This is the one and single chance for Microsoft to beat Mozilla out of any market share. Their stupid mistake to stack so much on Longhorn gave Mozilla a chance but this way they are still going to improve their browser just enough to throw away the advantage Mozilla has been building.
If we can, we have to find a way to work against this! Boycott IE!
I would like the ability to completely uninstall IE from windows machines. That would require that IE is loosely coupled with the OS and that in itself would be a huge improvement.
----
Afriguru:
:)
I am a happy Windows XP user (heresy!!!) I used to use Internet Explorer and Outlook Express, and even though I occassionally boot my Fedora Core 2 install, there are many things that I don't know or don't care to fix (in addition to many others I've fixed already) to be a Linux user.
However... My IE takes around 6 seconds (proxy resolution) to render the home page. If I open the browser and want to type an URL to go somewhere else than the home page, I'd better do it before the 6 seconds elapse, or... Pfft!!! It erases all I've written and displays the home page URL!
This simple thing motivated me to install FireFox on my computer. I've been long using OpenOffice.org, The GIMP and many other tools under Windows but didn't want to relinquish IE. This was two months ago, tell you what? I forgot when I last fired Internet Explorer.
I downloaded Thunderbird 0.7 last week...
Bottom line, don't use something because everyone else uses it, and conversely, don't use FOSS just because. Just give the software a try and see for yourself, I guarantee you'll be pleased and nothing wrong will happen
The revolution will not be televised.
You didn't think to just stop using that page as your homepage and just add it as a favourite???
I seriously don't know what everyone is thinking here, but personally, I couldn't care less whether Microsoft or Mozilla wins, the most important thing is to have a standard-complient browser that runs fast and is less prone to vulnerabilities, maybe with support for plugins and such. IMO, if Microsoft can make IE into such a product, then it would not hesitate to use it. This OSS vs Microsoft thing goes to far when fanatics (on both sides) force themselves to use knowingly inferior products "just so" they can brag about it.
Bahen;
Try hardcoding your proxy server rather than using "automatic". Worked for me.
I'm returning to work on the Internet Explorer team. A team that I used to work on a few years ago andI'm very excited to be returning to the team where we clearly have much work to do.
Yes, you do have a lot of work to do, Dave. Maybe you guys should have done the job right years ago rather than be in catch-up as well as damage-control mode.
G-Force music visualization
Windows is losing market share. It's a fact. Can't be stopped, especially with whole governments using Linux, or planning to switch soon.
.Net, make sure it runs on Mono, or better yet make the official .Net framework cross platform.
So lets save us all some time and make IE run on all systems. Code the whole thing in
I just want a universal client. If that's what your working towards then stick to standards that are explicitly defined by the W3C, or make your non-compliant browser available on all platforms. Otherwise just let Mozilla take over.
Bill Gates isn't even CEO of the company anymore, you insensitive clod!
y =c net
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-235639.html?legac
"We're breaking out the ramen noodles. . . "
"Really? Is it someone's birthday?"
This is why I think we should make some laws to prevent monopolies. Monopolies are bad for the consumers.
These hypothetical laws would make it illegal to attempt to create a monopoly/cartel situation, or, if a monopoly/cartel situation arose naturally, would make it illegal to bring those monopoly/cartel powers to bear in an anticompetitive fashion. If a company violated these laws the courts would be authorized as a remediary action to break the monopoly/cartel into smaller competitive units.
Do you think that could be a good idea?
By "develop" they mean "tighten DRM integration" and "more .NET". Everyone keep your Moz and Firefox, and move along. Nothing to see here.
Should MS be worried about OpenOffice or Linux? Sure. But their biggest competitor is themselves. How can they improve Office to convince someone who already has Office to upgrade? The same thing for Windows.
By all means improve IE. Standards-compliant CSS and/or XHTML would be fantastic, but I really don't understand all this foaming at the mouth about tabbed browsing.
What's wrong with Ctrl-N (new window from same page), or Right-Click->Open in new window (opens the focussed link in a new window)!? If enabling tabbed browsing takes time away from developing standards compliance, then I say forget it. One is infinitely more important than the other.
gadgetophile.com
MS should just buy up Opera before they become too big.
yes...its about time someone realized that dogs are pointless wastes of space
They are going to screw up the standards once more. And that's bad.
But, you are right, full standards compliance is very important. Mozilla and Opera, also Konqueror and maybe others, are trying hard. IE is nowhere near.
As most of the comments pointed out, there would be little interest in making IE more standards compliant.
.Net sandbox with as much security as a webpage or the once-upon-a-time java applets.
.Net 1.1 binaries off the internet, and they do not have permissions to access your local harddrive. If they do try, a security exception is triggered.
What I see is a focus on bringing a MUCH more richer, Windows-only user experience on the internet. We will see applications being delivered on the internet. Not web pages. They would run on a
In fact, it is possible to run
With Whidbey's click-once application deployment model, this will become more mainstream. With Longhorn's Avalon and XAML, the shift to a Windows only, multimedia and 3D rich user experience will be complete. Perhaps, since all of this would be integrated into the OS itself, it would seem much less a part of Internet Explorer.
Yes, that might be what they have in mind. As for the users, most of them would like the ultra-kewl interface compared to HTML documents.
Yeah, XUL can compete with this. But as Miguel Icaza pointed out, it will be hard competing against the tremendous distribution and deployment power of Microsoft.
Life is just a conviction.
No. AOL's browser would send a AOL browser identifier, no matter what the rendering engine.
Go to This site, which has a very good explaination plus comments as well... highly recommended.
Are you local? There's nothing for you here!
They should give the alternatives a try, like you I think they will be pleased with what they find. But, people can have strange prejudices......
It's really making me sad how many people are excitedly awaiting the features IE "will have in SP2 or Longhorn". All alternative browsers have those features today, you can download and use them right away.
If you don't know what a browser is or that you're using one, ask your local superuser to "repair" your computer. But then you're not reading this thread (site) anyway.
But if you know how to replace IE: Why let MS decide when you're going to get tabbed browsing and popups blocked? MS is a saturated monopolist making software for the wrong reasons. The are 1st in marketing strategy, but when it comes to product quality and innovation, it's a bunch of lazy schmucks.
If you've used a "real" browser just once, the next time MS announces that from the 22nd century on their browser will implement (insert your favorite IE web standards bug) correctly, you'll just shrug and probably feel a bit sorry for the poor bastards who get their ashes fscked (voluntarily or not) by an arrogant monopolist.
"I'm not saying that MS deserves a humanitarian award. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be criticizing MS because they have pushed back LongHorn. Allowing sufficient time for good development is a GOOD thing."
Interesting theory but IMHO Longhorn being pushed back is just a sign that MS bit off more than they could chew and mismanaged the project. That's frankly way more probable then the idea that MS is being a good citizen. If MS could have gotten away with shipping Longhorn this year, XP Sp2 would not have gotten nearly as much attention by them. They are in reality just covering their asses while they develop a secure alternative.
I agree that criticizing them for a late Longhorn over and over is dumb as well but I guess I just disagree as to the why MS is doing it part. All IMHO and such.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
I know it may sound trivial, but FavIcon support would be great as well. It's buggy at best in IE. I never really realized how widespread use was until I started surfing FireFox only. Kind of funny that out of just about every major website in the world, microsoft.com is the only one that doesn't send a FavIcon down the wire.
-- jimmycarter
"I don't want you to talk Mr IE... I want you to die!"
(Parody)
mozilla is getting too good. With the advent of xul and fast, safe, standards complient browsing, IE is beginning to look pretty sad.
Now, once another browser gets a foothold again, people will have the option of building web applications that feature nice interfaces (xul!) that don't need a win32 client to run properly.
They don't actually give a shit, they just want to preserve their bloated monopoly.
Blogging because I can...
Java's has this for years, I'm unclear why the windows weenies are getting so horny over .NET.
.NET technology that will be available 2006/7 and just do it TODAY with java. If you say that the GUI it's fast
jdk 1.4.2 fixed that. Or use SWT. The memory footprint of java and .NET is too close to see any differences
.NET. and the copy won't be complete until 2006/7.
".Net 1.1 binaries off the internet" aka applets
"Whidbey's click-once application deployment model" aka java webstart
"With Longhorn's Avalon and XAML" aka SwiXML, Ibex, Luxor, Thinlet, Beryl and many more
So quit coming in your pants for
Microsoft is copying JAVA to make
paradigm shift.... My arse
Have to admit I am astonished. I had NO idea they WEREN'T working on IE!
I guess I gotta read beyond the headlines here. usually I do before I post, I'm pretty good about RTFA, but... I was just floored when I saw that.
I'm still waiting for the Linux version of IE.
".Net 1.1 binaries off the internet" aka applets
.Net Code Access Security, you could say that only binaries signed with a certain key could run. And that the binary could only access a certain file on the drive. Or just about any permission you can think of. "aka applet" cannot do this. This is critical to application deployment on the internet.
Yeah. Except that with
"Whidbey's click-once application deployment model" aka java webstart
Except that "aka webstart" does not have side by side execution, versioning and rollback.
Comparing Avalon and XAML with "aka SwiXML" is funny.
The point is, maybe you could do a lot with java on the client. But doesn't that fact that not many people are using Java on the client suggest something else?
To Redmond. To be used in IE.
1. Copy Mozilla code into IE.
2. Get caught.
3. Deny everything.
4. Buy out Mozilla Foundation.
5. Distribute "new" IE.
6. Have press conference, insisting Microsoft "invented" tabbed browsing.
7. Deny everything.
DISCLAIMER:
I don't believe what I write, and neither should you.
I took a try at OOo after a particularly hair-rending night spent with Office. I never looked back. Anything I had trouble with in Office is fixed or greatly improved in OOo-to say nothing of the new features it brings. There have been plenty of times when other students have been unable to open files in Office-I pull a LiveCD out of my pocket, and it simply works. OOo is not simply Good Enough-it is Better.
The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
IMO the reason mozilla and firefox are successful right now is because they have a tendency towards speed, usability and easy of use. they cater towards standards compliance which relieves content developers to work on their content. if everyone in the web browser business did this, we would see an even greater content explosion than we did during the first few years of the web.
MS and IE are trying for this ideal, but they have their propietary needs to take care of. while IE is sorta fast and usable it simply doesnt reach the level of opera or firefox. those browsers are simply too good at what they do. and they usually link to other common services such as google who only cares about providing the best searching experience.
the point i am trying to make is that firefox works at being the best web browser. google works at being the best search engine. google could not exist without a good web platform, but bundle the two together and you have a really good "web experience". two very specialized projects combined in the right way is much better than the alternative which is IE with MSN.
there is still a lot of work to do in respect of creating the ideal web platform for example the integration of messenger and hotmail and outlook. its a really nice combination and simplifies a lot of work for the user. here to, desktop developers can cater to standards for contacts, bookmarks, etc. the idea is to standardize common protocols and file formats. we already have this with the protocols, but we dont have as much of this in terms of file formats. even if there is no standard, the ability to convert one format into another becomes just as important. the projects that specialize in these fields especially if they are open source will be able to combine with services provided by firefox and google, to create an even better "computing experience".
somehow tho, i dont believe any of this will happen. less work is done to get towards this ideal, and more work is done dicking around. honestly how long would it take to achieve this kind of integration, or format conversion or file format standards? the open source movement need only pick the best formats for a particular job and work on those. create converters for other formats but work with just those.
the converters could be part of the desktop environment making them invisible. an important by-product here is that a user could migrate their preferences and settings to any desktop environment and be able to work immediately. no more need for worrying about compatibility issues between apps. a web page in firefox should open the same way in IE. email should open either in evolution or outlook or what ever other alternative exists out there. the main differences are in personalization, and other things such as speed, usability, and ease of use. i mean, it makes more sense to use the fastest tool.
more people will use firefox because of this until IE can move towards this ideal. and from a business point of view, you get to focus on the real money maker and that is content whether in the form of online music, or online movies, or online games, or online books or whatever. i mean do corporations like MS really believe that a standards compliant DRM that was maintained by a neutral third party would not become accepted? when users worry less about the desktop environment and their web platforms, they will only care about their access to their content. somepeople will always be loyal to Apple, others to MS and other still to Linux. in an ideal world, if MS was a content publisher they wouldnt have to worry as much where or how the user is accessing the content, and worry more about making sure that the user has the proper access rights for the content.
there has never been much money in the desktop or the web platform unless you cornered the entire market. the only way to make money in the long term would be to lock the computer, the desktop, and the web. MS doesnt have a lock on the computer, a partial lock on the desktop, and a p
To make the world a better place!
:)
I totally know what you're saying, but seriously, they could still own the internet like they pretty much do already, and just make a browser that actually lets innovation move forward. Instead, us lowly web developers have to support crappy hacks for 5+ year old technology (*cough* CSS1 let alone 2) that should have been supported by the biggest freaking browser in the world by now. You dont understand how much IE pisses me off.
Joseph?
Yes, certainly. But (a) not every URL I visit I've been to before and (b) it's only a workaround to an existing feature that doesn't fit my perception of how things should work. :)
The revolution will not be televised.
What people want is that Microsoft would fix what's already there. Why have they left their CSS implementation broken for so long?
Sure, no browser is 100% bug free, but they could at least get the basics right, such as the CSS box model.
Clever signature text goes here.
Obviously it will never be perfect. Though, with the developer resources available to Microsoft, MSIE should actually be the most standards compliant browser ever. But they simply don't care. People want them to care and at least get the basics right. Why do they leave their CSS box model completely broken when it's obvious what needs fixing?
Just because no browser is bug free and there are tiny problems here and there with their standards support doesn't mean that Microsoft can at least try to be on the same level as the competition. We're not exactly talking about a tiny group of hackers coding away in their parents' garage here. It's Microsoft, with developer resources coming out of their ears.
So Microsoft should stop being asses and asking people to be "specific", because people have been very specific about what's broken for years now. They should start fixing it.
Dave Massy is either ignorant, incompetent and/or lazy, or he is completely evil and throws lies straight in our face. When he says that "the Internet Explorer team does exist and does care", does the fact that he hasn't even seen the many specific complaints about IE's standards support out there show that he is an incompetent fool, or is he a liar and just trying to blow off criticism with lame dodging attempts?
I don't know which is worse, but this guy is in a management position, and he's either a liar or incompetent. Sure gives me a lot of confidence is IE's further development! Oh yeah...
Clever signature text goes here.
8. ...
9. Profit!
It's a great browser.
This is the kind of thing that should be impossible in any browser.
/.ing is just what these crooks need.
/. community, but I'd hate some poor innocent to get ripped off.
Don't, please don't, click on it folks. It's a fraud, which arrived in my inbox just this morning.
https://sec.westpactrust.co.nz/IOLB/newSession
On the other hand a good solid
Let's blow their traffic ration as soon as possible.
But for goodness sake don't actually do anything at the site.
I'm sure I don't have to say that to the
Windoze? Lookout?
I bet you're one of those guys--and they're almost all guys--who spell Microsoft with a dollar sign and think they're clever. Aren't you? Admit it. Admit it.
> But doesn't that fact that not many people are using Java on the client suggest something else?
Yeah, it suggests that people don't want "rich web applications" unless they have no other choice (all minor nitpicks about Java aside, the parent is correct in saying it's here and it works).
XAML will be a good tool for the corporatey things that developers use ActiveX or Java for, but don't get your hopes up waiting for it to sweep the web.
I think IE 4 was a much better browser than Netscape 4. IE 3 was the last version that Netscape could win against, I think. IE 3 was horrible.
"Um, honey? You know that browser update you just downloaded? Some pop-up box is asking if we want to install the Gator update... should we? Oh nevermind, it just started automatically on its own... oh cool! There's a brand new version of that adsearch bar on the bottom too!"
... too little too late. I switch my whole family and all my friends to mozilla varients. I can't be bothered to switch them back:-)
Care to post the URL? Even better would be the BEFORE and AFTER pages, ie. PR version and CSS version.
Glad to hear that IE will be improved before Longhorn is released. Some of us may not live that long.
I agree with the posts that council against throwing every new feature and the kitchen sink into IE. I think the priorities should be:
1) Security - Every Windows user who also uses IE that I know has a hard drive littered with spyware. Fix it.
2) Standards - for CSS2.1, full support for PNG, XHTML.
I just finished building a site this week. I wrote it to the standards for XHTML and CSS, checked it in Safari, Mozilla, Opera, and did *not* check it in IE for Windows. If it looks good in those browsers but not in IE - too bad. I will spend no more of my time cleaning up after you.
On the site's "About" page I included the following text along with badges for XHTML and CSS validity and a link to the Mozilla Firefox page:
The above will be included in all web sites that I design in the future until such time as IE's standards support is satisfactory.
In IE 1.0 back in the day there was a Linux Client. Anyone remember or have a copy of it anymore for shits and grins?
1.a 100% standards-complient implementation of PNG
2.a 100% standards-complient implementation of W3C CSS
3.a 100% standards-complient implementation of W3C XHTML 1.0/HTML 4.01
4.sending of HTML email off by default in Outlook with the way to turn it on difficult to find
5.changes to scripting and ActiveX so that by default, only controls signed by someone trustworthy will download, install and be used (and even then have a clear "are you sure you want to let this control have complete access to your system" warning in language and UI that even the most cluless of users can understand) and so that scripting and ActiveX controls are turned off completly in Outlook with no way (not even a registry hack) to turn it back on.
6.changes to Outlook Express so that it wont run executable attachments dierctly (and so that you have to save them to the disk before you can run them)
7.changes to how Internet Explorer handles MIME types to ignore the extention and content of the file and to treat what the server or email message says the MIME type is as gosepel. If there is none, fallback on file extentions and stuff. Also, enhance windows handling so that mime types can be associated with different handlers. (this eliminates any need to use the file extention to determine what handler to use for it)
8.Clear warnings that even the most cluless user can understand when something has changed the search settings, home page or other IE-related settings out from underneath them (e.g. spyware)
9.completly dropping the broken Microsoft Java VM so that when stuff installs (like a new version of IE or a new windows SP), the MS VM is completly removed for good and the SUN VM is installed instead.
and 10.make these chages as widely available as possible.
Yes I use Mozilla (1.7 in fact) but for those who are forced to used Intercrap Explorer, this would make the world a better place. It would also make the world a better place for those not using IE as a side effect of he changes to Outlook.
You are (I hope) thinking of IE2. IE3 compared quite favourably to Navigator 3.0, the latters only major advantages being incumbency and an integrated HTML editor in the Gold Edition.
It's really making me sad how many people are excitedly awaiting the features IE "will have in SP2 or Longhorn".
I'm really kind of dubious that anyone is, in fact "excitedly awaiting IE features". The kind of people that get excited over web browser features are already using Gecko-based browsers.
May we never see th
What's this... "Internet Explorer" you speak of?
Oh, you mean the frontend I use for Windows Update?
OO spreadsheet has some good features, but is not in any way a viable alternative to Excel, for some users.
1) large (several thousand row,several dozen column) sheets run very slowly, to the point of freezing
2) Graph formatting is a mess
3) Needs more graph types, I seem to remember it doesn't even have scatter plots (xy)
4) Doesn't translate graphs properly from excel
5) Doesn't translate VBA
6) Save of large sheets is very slow
7) Becomes unstable with large sheets
I find it interesting that so much of OO vs Office is directed at comparison of word processors. Engineers use spreadsheets, not word processors, for mission critical stuff. I don't even have a word processor loaded on my computers at home, I write in a text editor (Crimson Editor for example), or a web browser, or, most likely, Mathcad. At work I write my reports in Mozilla, and post them direct to the intranet.
It was leaked from one of "shared source" licensees I believe. If it was a break in Win 2K3 source would be stolen, not 3 years old W2K.
Please please Microsoft, make browser based data entry easier for end-users, easier for programmers, and more reliable. So many companies are resolute about replacing their data-entry rich gui's, like VB, with browser based guis, so that they may have a zero footprint client, with no install, no client upgrade issues, and no client versioning issues. It simply does not work. I cringe when I think about this trend, and about the prospect of someday having to implement a web based gui.
How embarassing. Never mind.
Here is how you do it...
Get google.reg and follow these instructions
Maybe they'll start fixing some of the hideous bugs that have been around for versions and versions.
For instance, there's the dreaded "jumping cursor" bug. Sporadically from time to time, when you are typing an URL in the address bar, the cursor jumps on you to the beginning ofthe line and ends up leaving you with a broken URL, forcing you to type the damn thing over again.
E.g., if you are typing "slashdot.org", and the cursor jumps, you end up with something such as "t.orgslashdo".
Have only seen this in IE, so it's not a standard behavior of the input box control.
Or better, set your home page as "Blank," and uncheck "Automatic proxy detect" (annoyingly set on as default. Seems like that works fine for me.
But no one seems to bother. The stats on the Google Zeitgeist are typical, showing steady growth for IE6, an occasional tick-up of interest in alternative browsers, which flat-lines shortly thereafter, with no net gain. Instead of putting the blame on Microsoft's aggressive marketing, it may be time to ask whether the features that appeal to the Geek have any resonance at all with other users.
They changed Internet Explorer!
It still embodies the awful lack of standards it did before!
But it's got a new hat!
As sad as it is to say the most standards compliant browser, with the most CSS support anywhere is MSN for MAC. Just have that team port it over to windows, and strip out all the MSN garbage.
What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
Set IE's homepage to blank. It starts up very quickly then.
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
Funny. Did you feel the same about IE4? Because at the time Netscape was trying to sell themselves as the inventors of the internet and coming up with exciting, new proprietary extensions to HTML and the DOM, Microsoft released what was then the best browser around.
How quick (or conveniently) we forget. No one was bitching about Microsoft being "a saturated monopolist writing software for all the wrong reasons" before Mozilla released their first usable alpha. But now they're lazy bastards or whatever.
Uncanny.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Hit Escape will stop the page from loading then type in the URL (also use the shortcut Alt-D to jump to the address bar)
Start IE, use ctrl-o. Your url will remain!
Yeah. Except that with .Net Code Access Security, you could say that only binaries signed with a certain key could run. And that the binary could only access a certain file on the drive. Or just about any permission you can think of. "aka applet" cannot do this. This is critical to application deployment on the internet.
You know what I find funny about that? Is that Java 1.1 could also do all that! It's called Signed Applets, and the Java Security Manager controls access to specific resources just as you stated.
Except that "aka webstart" does not have side by side execution, versioning and rollback.
You need to Read Up on Webstart. It does versioning. You could if you wished run different versions side by side (though probaby only a developer would ever make use of that feature). If you think about what the words "Web" and "Start" mean together, you will wonder why the word "rollback" has any meaning. Since when do you "rollback" a read-cache? You re-read the data.
Comparing Avalon and XAML with "aka SwiXML" is funny.
Ha-Ha funny, or "that's strange" funny?
How about XUL, or (dramatic pause...) FLASH!!!!! ha Ha Ha Ha Ho! Now that's funny. Flash does everything you want to do with XAML later on, across a million platforms, TODAY!
I'm sure the virus writers will love XAML though. Should be a tremendous boon for them when they start playing around with buffer exploits from 100% translucent video playing in the background of the cool XAML form app using some obscure and poorly-written codec.
The point is, maybe you could do a lot with java on the client. But doesn't that fact that not many people are using Java on the client suggest something else?
Actually a lot of people are, just in intranets. Shouldn't the fact that Flash has taken over all rich interactive browser UI like you wna to do with XAML scare you just a little? I don't know if you've been browsing recently but there are a lot of sites using Flash to pretty good effect.
I guess the first step of Longhorn is to not ship IE with Flash installed anymore...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Sure. They could give alternatives a try. BUT THEY DON'T CARE. As soon as this reality sinks in, you can go back to hating Microsoft for whatever reason (or reasons). But Jeebus, get the user's motivation right.
If I look at your post, the conclusion jumps to my mind that people best skip the first version of Longhorn, because Microsoft takes several times to get it right.
Yes, XP is excellent, but it took Microsoft a long time to get there. Now Longhorn may be good, but I don't think Microsoft has a track record of releasing good software the first time.
If I were a business, I'd wait several years before upgrading to Longhorn. And that's exactly what they will do, because some organisations are still running NT 3.51 and consider Windows 2000 cutting edge...
On the IE startup issue:
I introduce you to ESC. More commonly known as The Escape Key. Godspeed.
Have you ever actually logged a bug against OOo? I've done so, and exactly one year and two months later someone cared to look at it. It was supposedly fixed, but then QA found out it still wasn't fixed.
I thought I'd do my share by logging a bug, but this completely ruins any fun there is in logging a bug.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
1. An extended development team
2. Web standards
3. Greater security
4. Cross platform market penetration
Unless of course you want to make a non-standards based browser, tied into a particular OS for some reason, but I can't see why you'd want to do that...you wanting to benefit the consumer and all...
PS: It wouldn't cost you anything to do either!
Oh, I'll tell you about strange prejudices. My mother has a deep-seated hatred for Mozilla. When I was first trying to get mom to switch to Mozilla, she'd keep saying things like "What's a mozilla? I just want the internet." She HATED mozilla. We were at each other's throats during the time that I was trying to get her to use mozilla.
So I did what any sane geek would do. I renamed the mozilla & mozilla mail icons on her desktop to be "Internet Explorer" and "Outlook Express", and set the icons accordingly. Now my mom's been using mozilla happily for over a year now. It even says 'Mozilla' in the title bar and she's never noticed. She still hates mozilla with a burning passion, she just honestly doesn't know that she's using it. I have no idea what about it she didn't like, but it must have been either the name or the icon, because that's all I changed.
Tried to get her on linux, too, and that was just about equally successful as mozilla (actually less; I wasn't able to satisfactorily disguise linux as windows, mom eventually reverted). I'm just really worried that when I move out, nobody will be here to run ad-aware and virus scanners to make sure there isn't evil spyware stealing her banking info and destroying her life. Feh.
I don't understand what it was that linux couldn't do for her. All she ever does is email & surf anyway (with the occaisional word processing -- primarily just printing off resumes). Linux did all that, I had gnome configured to look like windows with all the same icons in the same place.
Hi,
A few months ago I saw an in depth report comparing Gnumeric 1.1.x with Excel. The comparison was done function by function. comparing results from processing their test data. Some bugs had been in Excel for several versions, some had been 'fixed' in a half hearted way.
Gnumeric, came out with substantially better mathematical accuracy, especially in statistical functions, and was generally more reliable with far fewer bugs. Gnumeric also had more mathematical functions.
Now Gnumeric is up to version 1.2.12 - I suggest you look at it, Which is best, depends on how you are using a spreadsheet - obvious, I know!
Note also that OpenOffice.org 1.1.2 was released on Friday.
-Nivag
wow.. this was in time, ie has been the same old thing the past 5 years or so.. but anyway, i believe its just best to use mozilla or opera in windows ;)
And making it possible to use the address bar to search from Google, *not* MSN.
Actually that's possible. Download Tweak UI. Fire it up adn go to Internet Explorer -> Search -> Create and type in something like "g" as prefix and http://www.google.com/search?q=%s as URL.
Oh, by the way, I'm a happy Firefox user...
This is a site with 1.7 Million hits monthly and I was glad to find out Mozilla is growing since last year. In one year it growed from 2.94 to 6.47%.
Nou 6.47% of the users are a lot of users, even this is a university web site and many technician people are expected to visit it.
Linux users are way behind, only 2,01%, but growing anyway from 1.29% july 2003.
I'm always curious when people are complaining about IE why more people don't sugest IE replacements like Netcaptor or MyIE2. Both allow tabbed browsing, popup blocking etc etc. I've been using Netcaptor for a while now and like it alot. Cheers
Just to clarify...
Actually, WinME came out well after 2k, it was a filler for XP
I wrote my first page in this new "HTML" stuff, for the browser. It was called Mosaic. If I was lucky I got to use one of the schmancy new X terminals so I could actually see how it rendered. Then I walked uphill (as I had done getting to school) to get home.
My in-laws (and a lot of other people) are still using Win98. I can guarantee you that Joe User doesn't care what the release cycle time is for Windoze releases. He's certainly not going to completely switch to a different OS just because M$ didn't come out with a new version of Windoze. I certainly don't think anybody switched to Windoze just because they couldn't wait to get the latest version back when the latest was WinMe.
If anybody did, I sure feel sorry for them...
Use about::blank as your homepage, and this is a moot issue.
If you _really_ want to have a homepage, just click Stop before you begin typing the URL.
My experience with non-geeks and web browsers seems to indicate other reasons.
I have seen quite a few non-geeks who absolutely love the pop-up blocking and other features of FireFox. So in my experience, bundling, vendor lock-in and lack of knowledge all seem to be more of a factor than IE6 being superior to the average bloke.
about:blank
See,
Mozilla is gaining popularity now and MS is worried, not only that, bit since the last version of IE came out to play there are hundreds of great UI ideas for Microsoft to embrace in the latest version of it's software, not to mention plenty of nice dual-licence code for them to look at.
Don't give MS any credit for this, this is about one thing, as with NS is the 1990s, they see their crappy IE monopoly under threat, and it's this fact, not the fact that IE is and has been for some time, as steaming pile of shit that has finally spurred them into action.
Let the drones carry on, we know better.
D.
Use Control-L. This is a behavior that used to bug the heck out of me, but I learned this little trick years ago and it works just fine. Certainly not a reason to switch browsers.