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Recent Grads and Experience Beyond the Desktop?
over_exposed asks: "I'm a recent college grad (B.S. in C.S.) and have been on the job hunt for about 6 months. I've been playing around with tech toys as long as I can remember, but it all focuses around the desktop environment. Desktop-grade routers, switches and wireless as well as any/all desktop PC (and some Mac) hardware is what I could get my hands on with my limited budget. After looking through hundreds if not thousands of job postings, everyone is looking for 3+ years of network admin experience or 5+ years of C++ experience even for an entry level position. How is one expected to gain that kind of experience when no one will hire you without the experience? What kind of (part-time) work can you get as a college student to gain experience (Cisco, Exchange, SQL, etc) that will be marketable in the real world? Any suggestions from the Slashdot community will be of great benefit to myself and thousands of others who will enter the 'real world' in the next few years."
What kind of (part-time) work can you get as a college student to gain experience
Aside from simply applying for such positions, I would suggest you attend a Linux User's Group in your area. Along with expanding your knowlege and skills, a LUG connects you with relationships that might be helpful in finding part-time work. You'll also get a better feel for the local job market.
Sigs cause cancer.
But then you'd take my job.
All joking aside, those of us with IT jobs are becoming more and more protective of them. The sad truth is that helping you (and "thousands of others") out with advice is, in my opinion, just as bad as training my replacement.
Good luck.
The best way to do it is an internship. The best way to get a job is NETWORK, NETWORK, and NETWORK. All the jobs I've gotten has always been through someone I knew, who knew someone. So work your friends, friend of friends, and socialize more. Best advice.
Best Community for Gaming and Gadgets!
Internships are a great way to get practical work experience while you're still in school. They look great on a resume, and they can also be an excellent venue for you to get practical work experience after you get your degree. The theory being, you're already a known quantity to them and so they'd be much more willing to bring you on full-time after school.
Lie...
What could possibly go wrong?
I've taught myself quite a bit working with my own Linux server, writing web pages and databases for my music and pictures using PHP/MySQL, and playing with new technology. If you create something you can show a prospective employer, not only are you gaining experience but it goes a long way towards showing you're a self-starter and eager to learn.
12:50 - press return.
You will never get the job you want right after you leave University, you need to look for lower-position that do not require experience and then get your self moved up internally.
Once you get promoted you can then use that as leverage for external promotion. Remember all promotion is essentially internal in one way or another, it just seems like it is external because people change jobs so often.
The two best ways are to apply everywhere imaginable for a job, and to ask every single person you personaly know who might work someplace where there might be a job available. Don't be afraid of temporary contract work, becuase it is never truly temporary. There will always be more work to do after you finish with the first contract.
It is more about who you know in this industry than what you know.
If you go back in time to 1999, companies will pay you a nice salary to come in, be a warm body in a chair, and go to lots and lots of training.
Nowadays I'm surprised you can find even 100 job postings nationwide.
I think it is time we all faced the facts. The times when one could walk out of University with nothing more than a shiny new diploma and into a well paying job are gone. They probably aren't comming back. I particularily don't understand this mentality in CS when there are so many ways to get involved. Open Source software is more than a great way to use great software for free, it is also a great way to get your name out there. Attach it to some projects, big or small and actually contribute. No it isnt regular office experiance, but it is coding, and will seperate you from the rest of your classmates who have dont nothing more than school projects. Pick any project you use, phpBB, Apache, PHP, *nuke, whatever and get involved and get noticed. Even helping out with documentation shows some initive, and can help you stand out from the crowd.
paul reinheimer
Get a crappy help desk job and work your way up. Or do phone support. Or be a telemarketer for a computer company if that's all you can get.
You need to work to succeed. No one is going to hand you an IT job based on certifications or college. Well, they might, but you'll be working for an idiot, and probably not for long.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Buy some good books and keep yourself studying and learning. At least you'll be able to tell a potential employee that you've studied the theory and are eager to get experience even if you don't already have any.
...or Internship in the States. That's why universities have it. You get experience and a reference while getting paid. If you are taking Computer Science without co-op (internship), you are wasting your time and money.
When I went to some "back of the kitchen" job fair, I met a Fedex recruiter there. Obviously, they were looking for someone who would be happy spending the next twenty years delivering potential terrorist packages, but I was there looking for a job programming.
Turns out that Fedex only hires within its ranks. So there is essentially no way to get into the Fedex programming core without spending a year delivering packages. After that year, you would be free to transfer to a group that more naturally fit your skills.
Now back to your problem. What exactly, have you looked at? Software Developer postions? Well, no shit, it's fucking hard, asshole. There are a million of us, and a billion of you-unlearned, untrained, unskilled, greenthumbs who think they know what's what but couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. Frankly, it's no wonder you didn't get a job. There's simply too many skilled engineers who are unemployed to waste any spare minutes on someone straight out of school.
My advice is to join ANY company and see where it takes you. Hell, even McD's needs engineers. Who do you think writes the software to calculate "hamburger+softdrink=happymeal"?
There are a million positions wide open and just because you closed your eyes to them doesn't mean they don't exist. Go out and get them, you budding programmer.
I have been pwned because my
Market yourself as someone who can develop web applications using HTML/CSS, JavaScript, Flash, etc. for the client side and/or IIS/ASP, Perl, Apache/PHP etc. on the server side. Companies are looking for "junior" developers here. Once inside the door, look for opportunities to help out another part of the team with C++, Java or whatever.
My suggestion which is starting to work for me is ...
Network Network Network Network Network.
Attend User groups, attend shows, get to know people in the field. Ive seen it plenty of times where someone who isnt exactly the best fit for the job but gets the position anyways because that person knew the person hiring beforehand. It goes a long way in this industry.
Basically, people are looking for someone with the confidence to say they have five years experience and be able to show you that they can do what they were trained to do.
Read my short stories - You won't regret it.
Everyone has this problem coming out of school. My suggestion is to get experience with the necessary technologies/skills on your own time (you've had 6 months of your own time, right?) by working on projects. If it's c++ you're after, then write a killer app in c++. If it's OS experience you need or experience developing a particular kind of application or system, then find one that already exists and try to get a patch accepted.
People in the art wold have to have a portfolio of their work to get jobs and academic positions. There is no reason why a CS person couldn't have a portfolio of past projects and accomplishments. Wouldn't it look cool to hand a potential employer a stack patches that you wrote and have been accepted into FreeBSD/Linux/your-favorite-app?
Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
Seriously. Many of those requirements are written by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Now, in many companies, your resume will just get thrown out because you don't match some HR monkey's checklist -- but with luck, at a few places, your resume will get to someone with some technical knowledge who is willing to at least give you a chance in an interview.
I mean, apply everywhere. Any job you think you might possibly be able to do. If you get one nibble for every hundred resumes -- well, these days, in the post-.bomb world, that's not bad.
Also, I don't know if you're still eligible for this since you've graduated, but most schools' CS departments do have lists of available interniships. The money usually isn't great, but it's real experience, and can lead to a full-time position. (Mine did, though I didn't get it through the school.) They may have some formal job placement services for grads, too.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
You're looking for an internship. Preferably paid.
Lots of companies have internships available because it's a good way for them to get cheap labor that will do grunt work and for the intern to get their foot in the door. After so much time if they like you they hire you.
Find a company you want to work for and call them up and ask if they have internships availablable. These are the kinds of jobs that college students are expected to take as a way to get started in their career.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
Think about enlisting in the Military. Experience and a Security Clearance are pluses that will help you get a job. Having military service on a resume is a good indication that you know how to take orders and can perform an entry level position.
My answer was, I took a job with a smaller company where they understood my position but gave me responsibility and room to grow. Of course.. less salary, but it is a good starting position. I once met the "first CIO" in the United States, Duwayne Peterson - his advice was simply to "get your foot in the door" somewhere!
Good luck to you! -6d
I'm a recent college grad (B.S. in C.S.)
Yeah, that just about sums up my college experience as well...
Volunteer work might not pay as much, but it does give you experience, and usually has very flexible hours. Over 90 million people are volunteers of some sort or another, and every organization can use extra hands, if they're from a skilled and intelligent person. Offer to write something for a few small local places, get in touch with volunteer groups in your area (there's usually a listing of organizations), and suddenly you have a work history, instead of paying for all that hardware and tinkering at home yourself.
Move to India! Or Russia, or Singapore, or the Phillipines, etc...
Perhaps you could try contributing to some open source development projects if its development experience you're looking for.
If you want to be a programmer, contribute to or start an open source programming project. I don't mean some toy, I mean a serious desktop or server app - something someone else would actually want to download and run. Ta da, now you have soem code to show and your experience to state.
If you want to be a sysadmin, then do the mailroom route. Get a job working at a help desk or something and study your cajones off in the off-hours. It is trivially cheap to set up a network on Linux machines at home, break them repeatedly, and fix them. Go bug the sysadmins in your company and plead, cajole, and otherwise make a pest of yourself to help, shoulder surf, and otherwise learn off-hours, for free, volunteering to get experience. Do this for a few years.
After that it's easy. Get a job as a Junior admin. Get promoted to sys admin. Work for more years. Eventually make senior admin. Realize that system administration is a job for a masochist. Get promoted to management or drop out to become a beautician.
I graduated April 2003 and I was able to find a fantastic job in what could be termed "corpademia"(half academic/half corporate).
I didn't really study the things mentioned above, so I can't comment on their usefulness. What gave me the experience which got me this job was working part time in a research lab for a professor, in some cases doing research myself, in others in a support capacity, developing the computational tools which facilitated the research by other members of the lab.
Much is said about inovative companies, but University research labs are places where a lot of cutting edge technologies are developed and first applied. This makes sense because researchers have to be innovative to stand out from their peers, and they also generally are given the freedom to try out new, untested technologies/techniques, because the profit concerns aren't as great.
I myself, with little experience in hardware or software beyond my coursework, was given the task of designing, building and administering a linux cluster with a dozen processors, got to attend workshops on HPC and parallel processing, and then got to adapt the lab's in house bioinformatics software to work on parallel High Performance Computing systems, experience I can't imagine getting anywhere else. These things got me my current job.
So that's my experience, YMMV, but best of luck to you!
You should either be a GOD in CS with a PhD or too many impressive qualifications to find a 'good job' in CS these days.
If you have only minimum quals, you might end up as a sysadmin somewhere for a small network.
If you're not a GOD, and want a good job, then try not to be a pure CS guy. Take up a minor that you like while you're still in school and try to think about how your CS skills can be used in that minor. Eg Civil engineering needs lot of programmers who know some civil engineering. There is a surfiet of programmers in the market who know nothing other than programming lanugages.
If you lost your job today, don't despair. You may die tomorrow anyway.
master's degree. It's one-two years.
Everyone and their uncle has a shitty 4 year
degree in CS now. And if there's a simple
coding job, the kids with VoTech degrees
(2 year, or DeVry) are happy to work for
half of what you'd make.
A master's might help you get a job. Might.
But there's a bigger pay off.
At least when you land a job, if you have a
master's degree, you'll be the first one out
of the shit hole cubes. Unless working
for some frat boy with a business degree
is your goal in life. Seriously, a CS
degree gets you in the door. A master's
even more so. But what the fuck do you
want to do TEN years out?
But perhaps you only live your life by
making short term plans. Honestly, can you
say CONCRETELY what you plan to do in 10
to 15 years. Nothing vague now, like
own a house and have some kids. I mean
CONCRETE goals, like run a team of 10-15
people doing XYZ technology, speaking at
conferences, holding patents, etc.
You need CONCRETE goals in life: always
planning just 2-3 years for the future,
is just what those corporate fucks with
MBAs want you to do.
Here's what management is saying to people
in your position: "Go to sleep, America.
Do not worry about social security,
retirement, terrorism 10 years out, or
anything else. Buy a big car. Fund
an expensive life style."
Don't listen to the siren call. PLAN
for what you want to do.
Work on open source projects as if it were a job. It shows initiative and you learn far more than you ever could in school about software engineering and design. Of course, realize that your code is going to speak for itself, so you might not want to do a sloppy job. ;)
I was looking at a similar situation a while ago. All advertisements were for experienced applicants. I wasn't an experianced applicant. My father gave me some good advice, reply to each advertisement anyway. You are hoping for one of two circumstances. They may not bother advertising the entry level positions. They may not get what they are asking for and settle for you.
It worked for me. 200+ resumes, about 5 interviews, one job.
from what i've experienced, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Ask your friends if there are any openings were they are, and if you could fit in.
/renew * instead of rebooting? that sounds like "Network administrator" to me, just make sure your refrences know what's up.
Also, on your resume, stretch the truth as far as you can, without lying. You know that job where once and a while you did a ipconfig
Runnin' On Empty
Register with your local temp or employment agencies and take whatever they have.
Once you're in the door start looking around for positions inside the company you're working at.
You're in, you can prove that you have the ability and not just the shiny new piece of paper that says you sat through 4 years of classes which probably taught you nothing that you didn't already know, and then you can see about moving up in the world.
Don't care 'bout the ad, just go to the interview and say what you are saying now. They'll appreciate for one that you're honest and for two that you have the guts to come there.
As for Cisco equipment...well, first of all you mention SQL and Cisco in the same sentence...what is it you really want to do? Databases or networking? If you want ot do networking, numerous training firms will cert you on high end networking equipment...you will have to pay to play but you will make it back on wages, assuming you get trained on the right equipment from the right vendor.
I run an ISP/Hosting company and we are always looking for smart, honest people who are programmers. Experience means little to us because nothing stays the same more than a few months. However, note carefully that I say PROGRAMMERS. There's a big difference between an appliance operator, desktop button pusher and a PROGRAMMER. Even if all you know is BASIC, you need to cross this crucial line. If you don't know what programming a computer is, you'll have trouble working on anything other than sugared desktop stuff.
When I graduated from college, there was no way I'd get a job in my particular field. Competition was on the lines of one opening for every 40-50 applicants, and if I had to put in the effort it would've taken to land that job, it would've made my life suck completely. So I did something else. I kept working at a bicycle shop and was fortunate to get enough of a raise to keep going... and earlier this year I got a career started with a distributor. Result? I make a bit less money than I would otherwise, but weekends piss me off because I like being at work so much. I've got an IRA, good health/dental/vision, and I pay about a third to half of what folks on the street do for bike parts, which makes me grin. Expand your horizons a bit, maybe make a hobby into a career - it worked for me!
Oh, and everyone else will say this, but most of the jobs I've gotten (from ice cream scooper at Baskin' Robbins to the current one), it wasn't what I knew but who I knew. The right references, and the right person speaking up for you when someone mentions an opening, make all the difference. If you aren't outgoing, then at least be pleasant towards those around you whenever possible.
The pain was excruciating and the scarring is likely permanent, but that just means it's working.
Internship during school.
Computer lab at school.
Homemade projects at the dorm.
One bit of good advice I've heard is to look at companies that aren't focused on what you're doing. Every graduate with a CS degree is going to apply to work at IBM and Microsoft, but other industries need software too! Send your resume to companies that specialize in automobiles, food service, medical equipment, aerospace...you name it, they'll probably need software.
Visit the
Surely a masters or a PhD will make you more employable.
You're not going to get in on the enterprise computing space with your B.S./C.S. alone. If you can, try to get hired by your university IT department. In anything, yes, even tech support... you can move up once you show your skills. Speaking of..
Split your time into working, studying/taking classes and learning on your own. Spend time getting to know open source technologies that have enterprise level analogs so that you start to learn fundamentals. If you have multiple switches and PC's, make multiple networks and play with routing between them. Set up VPN or SSH tunnels. Snoop around the university surplus and see if you can get an old Cisco catalyst so you can monkey with IOS. That's if you want to go networking.
I can't speak to programming, because although I did graduate with B.S./C.S. I knew within the first two years of that track that I didn't want to program for a living. I wanted to do systems admin and management. So I sacrificed grades for experience and worked and learned on my own. My first admin job was also a programming job, but that helped my resume so that I got a real admin job with a university department a few months later.
It'll take a lot of discipline and maybe a lower GPA, but a CS student has most of the resources needed to learn and grow to be a marketable hire in real companies. Good Luck.
Hiring for software developers etc. as far as I can see has returned to the state it was when I graduated from university, before the dot-com thing. The dot-com hiring scene was a large deviation from the norm.
:-)
What helped me was being on a 'sandwich-degree' - which includes a year of employed work as part of the degree. Many companies took students on for a year of "industrial training" (internship, co-ops, the name varies by nation) - I worked for IBM. After that year, I went back to university and finished my degree. Since I had already proved myself with IBM, they had a job waiting for me when I came back as a graduate - at a significantly higher rate of pay than the graduates who had not had this experience because I was already proven - I had got essentially a year-long practical interview from them. I'm very grateful that IBM did this kind of thing (and still does) - the 7 years I spent with them after graduation were very good, and they treat their employees well. I only left because I moved back home where there's no IBM facilities, otherwise I'd have been happy to stay with them until the bitter end
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Unfortunately after years of tech down turn and the mass shipment of jobs overseas, your Federal government still thinks its a great idea to give what few jobs remain to foriegners. Write your congress critters and express your outrage. Why give job to Americans when you can give to foriegners, all so a few CEO's can get even richer. Use your un-employed time to help stop this crap. Also be sure to vote this next election, find out where your candidates stand on critical issues such as H1-B and outsourcing. I wish I has some actual advice for getting a job, but the current goverment policies seemed to aimed at asuuring that no qulaified American can get a job, the current administration thinks the more jobs that go to foriegers the better, abd will bo rest ubtil every last US job is gone. Write and vote! Mark
I will be attending RIT this fall, and my major(CE) requires a full year of co-op on the job experience. Will this be enough experience to give me an edge when I enter the job market?
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
I can really empathize with you. I'm about to finish my undergrad, and I've been having trouble finding a full-time job. I've worked part-time in a netadmin position for several years, but whenever I call or email an employer, they want someone with 2-3+ years experience in a full-time job. It's such a pain.
However, I suspect the way I got this job will end up being the same way I get my next one. I started in this position six years ago. I was in high school at the time. I did some tech work for one of my teachers, and he knew the person running the network here, and hooked me up. Networking is the key. It's not even a bad idea to pass up internship-style jobs. In those jobs, you'll get an incredible amount of experience, though pay is a bit lower than you might like.
Being qualified is equally as important as being known, but being known is what gets you a job. So, while you're waiting for a good job, do some work for people you know. Install cable modems and DSL service. Run antivirus scans. Do small little jobs like that. If you do some work for a small business owner, you might take a look at the systems they're running and say "ya know, I can write an application for you that will do that better." Give them some details, and quote them a price. If you impress them enough, they'll take you up on your offer. You'll find, after a while, that the people you help will say "Wow, you're really bright and talented. I should introduce you to some people." Then they'll point you in the direction of a job.
And in the meantime, you can charge them $30-60 an hour for your regular tech work, even more for your programming work (if you don't just hammer out a contract for the whole job), and have enough money to pay the bills.
I started taking a programming class in high-school in 10th grade, where I learned basic C style syntax, as well as "how to think like a programmer," I really enjoyed it, so I started to teach myself new things. By the time I graduated high school, I was highly capable with PHP/MySQL. After seeing a website I developed with PHP/MySQL, I was offered a job at the college I was attending, where I do work with VBScript/Oracle. Additionally, I started playing with Linux on my own time, and now I'm starting to get interested in C++ again. I'll be a sophomore in college this fall.
If you start early, get a project you can focus your energy towards (mine was weather information), the rest comes naturally.
By the time I graduate I think I should be in pretty good shape.
We met at SD99 back a few years ago. Good times back then.
But I don't think it's necessary to be a god at programming (though you are, don't get me wrong). Rather, I think it's a problem of developing the analytical skills necessary to figure out the right way to design a program. Foreign, cheap engineers exist for the rest of us highly skilled engineer/architects to implement our hare-brained ideas (who knows where C++ would be now if it weren't for USENET fanatics??).
The recommendation to take other classes is well-taken, however wouldn't you think that a business background would be more appropriate than something like civil (dirt) engineering? Business is the core concept of (ahem) business. Understanding that makes an employee much more valuable. In addition, learning about the manner in which to go about seeking additional funding and justifying a business plan in front of investors seems to be more useful than learning about how precise pi needs to be before massive failure of physical systems.
God knows I love driving my Ford Fiesta around cloverleafs, but when it all boils down to it, the real money is made in architecting the next generation software.
I have been pwned because my
My expereince is somewhat dated (almost 30 years ago), but I think most of it still applys.
First, check around your school for professor or other departments who need computer help. Other departments may have work for you programming or system admin or some such.
Also, check with your professors. When I was in colleage they got me several part-time jobs with local comapnies doing programming. Again, they're tied into the local community and have friends in private industry.
Check the on-campus job center, sometimes things show up there.
Do volunteer work for local charities doing computer service. You'll meet people who know of jobs for you.
The more you network, the better chance you have of finding someone who needs somebody with your skills and doesn't require 5 years of experience.
By the time I graduated from collage I had almost 2 years of experience programming, and this was back in the late 70's when computers were much harder to find.
The best thing you can do as a student to make yourself more appealing to potential employers is to take a part time job or paid internship as a student.
I interned at a software company for three years during college, which I believe put me on a completely different level than my peers who had no work experience - even though many of them had better grades
You mentioned "Cisco, Exchange, SQL, etc", IT type jobs are the ones getting washed out by grads. If you are serious about becoming a developer, you need to get experience - try making significant contributions to an open source project or going to grad school and landing some sort of internship like I just mentioned.
Around here there are tons of companies that hire CS students, many times with the hope of grooming them into a full time employee.
I'm a mech. eng., and I know that as technology advances and we work more with computational models, the comp. sci. aspect of our work is becoming more and more of a challenge. I think you would have great luck looking for positions in engineering grad. school programs, especially if you're a fan of parallel processing. My research group, for example, is currently finishing a proposal for a new Beowulf cluster, and we could certainly use someone willing to help us choose the components, set it up, keep it running, and help us with our parallel models.
Also, don't ignore the internship and co-op suggestions. Co-oping definitely helped me out.
Live free or die
Try some small businesses in your area, some may want help with networking. It won't be the big stuff but it can make you some money and build some references.
You can also volunteer your time, find a charity or non-profit that needs some help with their networks and help them out. Again it builds experience and references.
I have seen some people buy old cisco routers off ebay for cheap and set them up at home to gain experience with them.
Doug
School does not count for much.
Pay your dues.
Take anything that has to do with computers, for whatever they will pay.
I started as a pc tech, learned everything I could, took any job and worked my way up to network security.
If you love the biz, you will take what you can get and mess with anything you can get your hands on.
Learn UNIX inside and out, linux, solaris, the BSDs, learn IP inside and out, mess with routers, script, build machines, code, support users, design, implement, learn to communicate and be humble.
tm
http://tinyurl.com/globalwarmingisascam
While it may be too late for you, colleges often hire students for system administration jobs. The pay is peanuts, but you will gain real world experience and come out of college with more than a piece of paper.
All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.
I agree with the other posts about internships. My program at RIT requires a year's worth of interships before graduating. That makes a B.S. take about 5 years, but I think it's well worth it to have the real-world job experience (and industry contacts) when you graduate. Tons of students get hired once they graduate by companies they've done internships or senior projects with. Other tech schools have the same idea; I think Northeastern does this as well.
Yes thats right. How else do you expect me to learn photoshop. I have over 6 years experience in it which I never would have gotten without pirating it. Spare me your gimp stories because photoshop!=GIMP. I also have a great knowledge in MSSQL server and I would setup servers at home and play around with them, buy books and create replication sets and fool around with advanced things. I would setup active directory domains on my pirated windows 2000 server box so I could learn it. And you know what, I dont feel one bit ashamed of what I did because I cannot afford these software peices just to learn them. And one day I will be able to actually pay for them with my knowledge of using the programs themselves. Sure I could have gone the open source route but hey I am a windows person , Linux is not for me so dont try arguing with me that I should have been using Linux. Without ever pirating any software I would be left with no knowledge of MSSQL, PHotoshop, Visual Studio, Microsoft Office, 2000 Server, dreamweaver, flash and so on. I have been able to dabble with programs , learn them and then I decided if I liked them or not, and no a 30 day trial is not long enough because no one can always spend every day playing with the program. It would be nice if the 30 day trial actually counted down 30 days worth of program usage. Everytime I opened it , it would begin a timer.
Part of the problem is that serious experience is needed to do a number of difficult jobs. In some cases, you won't be "good enough" until you've worked for a decade (at which time you'll be 35 or so and finding a job will be truly challenging...).
Another problem is the over-specification of positions; the best explanation I've heard for this (beside HR only being able to match words and not concepts) is that technically weak managers have to hire specific skill sets because they are not capable of mentoring and otherwise growing "merely" talented people.
This essay is where I got that concept, and the entire site is highly recommended for its advice in finding a job.
To try to answer your questions, what I've gathered is that you simply have to get the experience: for you, stay in your current job for a couple of years, or jump now, since leaving after six months doesn't look too bad. But you want your first or second job to be a minimum two years in duration.
And get experience in the specific areas you're interested in (hopefully your company actually does some of them :-). For people who are still in school, be sure to get some industry experience before you graduate; if it's not on your resume as such you have some fast talking/networking to do....
Don't panic, but do realize this "market" of people and jobs is really messed up right now, and you're going to have to work hard to keep a career (unless you want to become a manager, and then you're still going to have to work hard since good management is just as hard in its own ways).
Good luck!
It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem. The real problem, though, is that for a few years in the late 90's companies were handing out eggs left and right to everyone they could. When the floor fell out in the early 2000's, everyone got laid off, including people with 10+ years of experience with very specific technologies that are in demand now. What this means is that those people will be hired back first as the market recovers and, if there are any jobs left, you'll have a chance at that time. Find what work you can, keep your skills up, and keep applying for jobs.
I and many of my colleagues had predicted the storm would pass by the end of 2003. It's still here, and I'm revising my prediction: without knowing the right people (of which there are few), an entry-level programmer will not be able to get a job that matters (i.e., gives him experience that is at all pertinent to his dream job) until 2010 or later.
Seems to me that most people don't start as developers, they start as testers or call center reps, and work their way up internally. That's if you're going for larger companies. If you want to get into smaller companies or consulting, it's all about networking.
Face it, everyone wants to hire an experienced proven employee, but then not have to pay them much.
....
Realistically the 'requirements' are more of a wishlist. For full time employees they want someone with the basic skills with a personality to handle the job. (smart, fast learner, plays well with others
I'd apply to these jobs, point out any experience, if you get an interview tell them what you know, and where you want to go.
Nobody ever gets the perfect candidate, just show that you are a good choice.
It works this way: >20 && =30 && =40 = employable as CTO iff previous supervisor >=45 = retired on all the $$$ you've made in this high-paying industry.
Lie. Corporate America is all about lying; how it's done, when it's done, and whom to lie to.
Or just twist the facts a little. Doctor your resume. Cook your C.V. Overstate your importance.
Or work on Free Software projects and list them all in your resume.
-Jem
Find a cool project with a charity or non-profit, they usually have some money, maybe not a lot. If you can find a project you like its a good place to start. A couple of years ago I was in the process of leaving the IT industry, I took on a PDA project for a non-profit, probably didn't make minimum wage on it, but I gained valuable experience and exposure, today I'm fully booked for PDA projects, and making good money. Point is if you can get a project up and running for someone, it will get you experience and exposure. Also non-profits usually can't pay ASP rates for their projects, so the're more likely to hire an individual developer who can work self contained for low cost. Also charities will hire someone they know personally and trust, and usually won't nitpick on whether you have n years experience with C++. A good place to start are any orgainzations you or your friends and family work with, ie churches, community groups, etc. Also working for non-proits can be very rewarding, and a lot more fun than dealing with the corporate world. Good luck. Mark
look to become a field engineer for a telecom company..
Does nto matter if tis landline or Moblei operastor both kids of compneis are problably hiring again for field engineers..
Landline companeis will call it a cusomer engineeer...
soem might refer to it as lienman..
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Yep, I can't find the article now, but I read that most job openings are filled by referrals from existing employees. You might be able to find openings online or in the paper, but they will give you a tougher interview process. A recommendation from a friend on the inside will get you a step ahead of the other random applicants.
--
11 Gmail invitations availiable
You can go for all the schooling and internships you want, but good jobs are still gotten the hard way -- with people skills. You need to be able to communicate well and convey a very positive self image. Your degree should at least get your foot in the door for an entry level interview. From there, it is all up to you. As far as giving a good interview goes, there is a plethora of decent advice to be found, though my most commonly given advice is this: Nothing sells like honesty.
To sum up, ignore what the want ads say. Just go in and make them give you the job. You must have many bad interviews before you begin to have good ones. Many of the senior and even higher level engineers I have worked with never even had college degrees. What they did have is a lot of ability and good people skills.
How is one expected to gain that kind of experience when no one will hire you without the experience?
Because companies don't want to hire people unless they absolutely have to. HR departments are in the business of disqualifying people, not hiring people.
Most of it is due to middle management's inability to understand the concept of hiring entry-level employees and then teaching them the business so they can become valuable members of the company.
Entry-level means:
NO EXPERIENCE.
ZIP.
ZILCH.
NADA.
NULL SET.
ZERO.
NONE.
SPELL IT:
N-O-N-E.
Advertising for an entry-level employee with five years experience is an exercise in flagrant cynicism. It is part of an overall goal of making the workplace a joyless shithole.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Get a job. Any job. Go to work. Live.
Work closely with your college's alumni association and with the CS department's industry liason. Both of them are excellent resources for job placement assistance.
Don't forget the power of social networking, either. I was lucky enough to get my "dream job" before I graduated (BSEE) because a friend of a friend was a manager at the company. In fact, that may be the best way to get the job, regardless of your experience.
Thirdly, consider joining the Computer Society of the IEEE and attend the functions, email with the members and even consider volunteering for some of the tasks that come with the Society. The membership dues are significantly reduced for recent graduates. Also, the IEEE's GOLD (Graduates of the Last Decade) organization can help as well.
And don't hesitate to apply for a job, even if you don't think that you meet the experience criteria. Even though many of the resumes are screened by HR and you may not get past them, many are not. Something in your resume may stick out and get you an interview - and that's what you're really after.
Good Luck!
-h-
Good luck on your job search- you should be able to find a good job.
However, just have to ask. You have a C.S. B.S and never had an opportunity to use a Cisco router? Never had access to SQL? Hmm.
SQL is just a free download of a database - MS SQL should be in any college for free, not to mention routers in labs.
We might want to re-evaluate just how qualified these C.S. graduates really are.
If you are interested in programming - program. Plenty of free projects out there.
If you are interested in networking - do networking. Grab and old PC, install BSD and learn how to configure a router.
Linux, too.
Grab a cheap old Cisco router off of Ebay, if you have a few hundred bucks.
Why not work as a lab tech at your old Alma Mater, get some exposure to equipment.
I sometimes have to ask "what did you study?" - if you need to study more, definitely consider an MS in CS
- George
The plain truth is that everyone wants those great and glorious jobs, but with no experience you aren't going to get them. So get some experience in the market doing the job you don't want. I just went through a process of interviewing several "just out of high school" kids for a deployment/upgrade job. We offered one a base entry level position because he had education but zero experience. The rate was $10/hr. Not great, but beats the $7.50 he would get bagging groceries. And if he turned out to be solid, he could quickly rise up. Instead, he wanted to haggle on price because he thought he was worth more. Guess what? there were three other people in line just hoping for anything and now one of them works for us and the whiz kid is still looking. Take the job you don't want and work your way up to the job you do want.
I was fortunate to have a fellow classmate remember me a year down the road...landing me my first job in the industry. I did the same for my old classmate also, giving him a job in my company. That's one of the easiest way to network, is through your other classmates, so while you are in school take the time to meet and know people...you'll never know what happens years down the road.
Also I've always suggested friends of mine to start or help out in open-source projects. Great way to get experience and network. Plus it helps you to stay sharp.
The army's always recruiting, and if you join the Royal Signals (or whatever your local army calls 'em) you'll get plenty of training and experience in IT and Comms.
Is a B.S. degree the same as a B.Sc.? I have to ask because that's not normally what springs to mind when someone says they have a B.S. degree.....
The Army is hiring and requires no expirence. Believe it or not, there are LOTS of SysAdmin jobs in the military. If you are a US citizen and your family are all US born, try NSA. The hiring process is a real pain but its one of the more exciting networking jobs out there. Good luck!!
get any sort of job first, even customer service or retail. all companies usually have IT departments, if you show that you have what it might take to be a part of their IT dept, your foot is already in the door, companies love to hire from within.
-Cnik
Nobody said you had to be employed to get the kind of C++ experience that makes you a great programmer. Ideally, programming is your passion, and not just a way you fill your hours on a job.
So write programs in your spare time. Put them on a website. Heck, try and sell them.
You can create your own experience and prove that you've got real C++ skills. It just takes a bit of your own personal drive.
I have an awesome programming job, and it was my collection of hobby projects that proved that I could both code and that I had the passion to create, more so than any of my previous 9-5 positions on paper.
You would be amazed at the experience the military gives you. Want some realworld networking experience? Want to work on extreme networks?
Want to learn how real disaster recovery works?
My Highschool education and military experience did me good for 14 years -just vendor courses as needed - before I had to start getting some college courses. Now a quick AAS and I'm back in the saddle with knowledge, experience and discipline. I'm making more than I can spend, I want to be a tech and not management, so all I have to do is keep current on technology, keep my certs up to date and I'm on easy street until retirement.
Go out and get the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I know it's a stupid little paper back. However, if you take it seriously, it can change your life.
The other thing you might want to do is network by joining Toastmasters. Both of my sons (18 & 19) go and they think it is great.
The best way to do it is an internship.
... And then middle management took all the money home.
Work for free so they can hire you for a "permanent" job later.
ROFL
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
I'm not sure if it's still possible, but the year after I graduated from high school, I started lecturing (an A+ course) at a computer school (about a week after getting my A+). I basically haven't stopped working since then, and even completed a college degree part-time (started three years after I left high school).
You say you're interested in Cisco products, an excellent thing to do while you're still on the hunt for a job would be to get a couple of Cisco certs. I did a couple while I was working, although not the "top" Cisco certification, the CCIE... but if you are interested in Cisco products or networking in general, Cisco certs could be very valuable to you.
I'm not sure how much the market has changed since the late 90s, but it might still be worth it trying to find per-hour work as an instructor in a cert that you have completed...
Still, the parent poster's advice is excellent and makes a lot of sense. There are several routes, but the most important thing is just to rack up as much valuable experience and qualifications as you can.
Brandon Glass's personal site.
Don't expect to necessarily complete your degree and walk straight into an interesting role.
After I graduated, I got a job as a "Remote support consultant" at a software house. I got it because I had UNIX experience (I knew a bit about it, but nothing significant) and showed an interest in learning new things.
That role enabled me to learn lots more about UNIX and then get involved in Cisco, Citrix and other tech that you only typically find in business.
Five years later I'm one of the senior techies and I get to play with all the new interesting things. My general rule of thumb, is that new people are generally only useful after about a year. It takes that long to learn the systems we use. If they show a particular interest in learning, I'll teach them as much as I can. It's the only way to grow decent techies.
Starting at the helpdesk is an excellent starting point, degree or not, because it give you a wide subject knowledge (I'm not referring to call center-type helpdesks). If you're good, you'll be noticed.
Try applying anyway, even if you don't quite meet their requirements for experience. You might get hired if they don't find anyone more qualified. They might offer you a lower salary than they would someone that met their criteria exactly, but at least it would be a chance for you to get that initial experience.
We hire from two groups of people: those who are members of the local LUG (Linux Users Group) and the local 2600.
My advice is to join your local user groups and contribute (e.g. demonstrate your skill by adding features to the group website). This is where you can subtly network (in the people sense) and find your next great job.
- Hobbyist experience. Have you done projects on your own for fun? That you can show me? I want to hire people who are resourceful and who love their work.
- Attention to detail. You wouldn't believe how many people have poor formatting or spelling errors in their cv's. If you don't take the trouble to proofread your own cv, it doesn't make me feel warm inside that you're going to carefully check all those boundary conditions and return codes in the code you write for me.
- Good attitude. New grads have actually said to me that they don't see themselves programming for long, and that they see themselves as more management material. Ejector seat. Not all of work is fun, and everyone has to pitch in on the tedious jobs like testing, backups, maintenance. No prima donnas please.
- Good communication skills. It truly disappoints me how many people look great on paper, but after an interview you realize that they simply aren't going to be able to work in a team setting.
The job market is tough. The good news is, it's not that hard to stand out.sure the degree will make you marketable, but while you are fiddling around in school, you could be learning something.
there are ups and downs to going to college for computer work. it seems that college grads are more experienced with programming and with The Way Things Work, but have less actual experience with the technologies. my college friends can write C++ scripts until they are blue in the face, but have no idea how to perform unix installations or debug that apache server gone apeshit.
if you want experience, RTFM and ask one of your buddies for a shell on a unix server somewhere. i think there are several free shell services out there. try googling.
While others are also right that you need to know people or taking intern/help desk to get in the door, getting actual experience is good too. IIRC, you can get IOS simulators for free. You can then get practice on them and have '#years IOS' on your resume without forking out tons of cash for a router. That will help you get in the door. Then when you meet someone more reasonable than an HR drone's resume parsing script, you tell them what the deal is. Everyone was a newbie once, and they'll be sympathetic.
While going to school I worked as a system operator on an AS/400. I learned all I could about the system by reading the extensive online documentation. While I've never worked on one since, it still looks good on paper.
I also got intern positions at local companies. Who actually let me write production code (with extensive code reviews, of course) This also looks good on paper.
Now, the time frame was the early 90's. If you could spell COBOL (and were therefore desperate) you could get a job. So I think I had an easy time of it.
I would do things a little different this time. I'd either donate my time and skills to some open source project, or start one up. Something small using available tools that demonstate my knowledge of (enter technology of choice here).
Then put the URL to myproject.sourceforge.org on your resume. If they even bother to look at your code then you'll be much farther ahead of the competition.
The first thing to realise about the "Real World" is that it's mostly fake.
The second is that anyone who uses the phrase "in the real world" in an argument is undoubtedly wrong.
HTH
I'll be the technology coordinator for a school district this coming fall. Now, I know there's a bunch of people out there who are gonna say "Those who don't know, teach." And they can just piss off. I'll tell you, the last tech coordinator I knew personally taught at my high school for four years and is now pursuing a doctorate while being the head of the technology development team at Indiana State University.
First, let me tell you: you need to be professional. That means cordial, exchanging pleasantries whenever possible, writing letters, as well as actually calling the human resources department personel and introducing yourself, if not in person. Believe it or not, professionalism will get you a lot further into acquiring a job then just sending out apps and waiting for something to happen.
Second, you gotta start somewhere. Example: banks always need IT support staff, but more often than not they hire internally. Start off as a bank teller. Sure, for a Comp. Sci. college grad it doesn't sound like a lot of money, but the perks are nice and it leaves plenty of room for growth. From experience, companies that have high demands for entry-level programming positions do so because it is easy to filter the qualified from the "they say that they're qualified, but...". It's simply because a company is not going to waste precious hiring-time to see if you can do the kind of work they demand if you've never done that kind of work before.
Or, try for tech support. Again, the pay ain't great, but every TS company has an IT support staff, and at the few I've applied to in the past couple years, all only hire for that internally, because they want someone who knows their systems and demands rather than some joe with an A+ cert. off the street.
Finally, even accept something lower. I did merchandinsing for CocaCola for a couple years, and they hired a lot of staff internally, including their IT support staff (well, if they did not find internally, they looked elsewhere, but the company knew that a lot of their workers are soon-to-be college grads who are looking for more qualified work, and it saves the company a lot of money not to have to advertise the position).
I suppose to sum everything up: climb the ladder. It's not fun, and you have to lower your expectations to start out with, but if you're as qualified as you say you are (and professional, I can't stress that enough), you'll get what you're looking for eventually.
My experience in college the following. I took a full boat of classes in spring and fall semesters (15 - 18 hours) as well as 2 classes in each summer session. On top of that, I was married and working a full time (40+ hour / week) internship. Before the internships, I waited tables. I decided one day that I could get the help desk job then, or when I graduated, but if now, I could work my way up beyond that by graduation. In the 2 years I did this, I worked 3 different paid internships, learned a ton, and had an offer from IBM before graduation. My peers in the same classes that were bartending or waiting (or not working) were interviewing for my help desk job at graduation.
** Your mileage may vay, that was 1996-1998, things have since changed, etc, etc.
Charity organizations or non-profits are always in need of people but don't have the funds. Volunteer as many hours a week you can offering your computer skills for free. Many of these organizations have in house networks that need occasional work.
If you are highly recommended by one of these organizations after a year or two of volunteering, you can bet that puts you up the ladder of resumes. It doesn't mean you worked 8 hours a day every day fo the week. While not working there, work wherever you can to make ends meet.
Seig Heil! Why so down on non-USA folks? A little xenophobic perhaps?
>>Why give job to Americans when you can give to foriegners
Uh, the job should go to the most capable - right? Sometimes that is outside your borders. Did you complain when India was hiring people from the USA to get their stuff done for the last 30 years?
>>all so a few CEO's can get even richer
CEO's are employees of Corporations. Corporations are owned by those who own stock. About 70% or better of the citizens of the US are in some way invested in the Stock Market. The CEO's job is to not squander the investors money. People have their financial future tied into the stock market; their retirements. You seem to have little concern about *their* financial health.
The USA no longer has a monopoly of tech skills; we better get used to that and adjust. If we use the government to place artificial barriers to competition then we will be cutting our own throats. We make better cars now than we used to - competition from the Japaneese and others did that. If we had put severe restrictions on imports - we would still make totally shitty cars.
Humor from a Genetically Molested Mind
I'm sorry you feel that way. I've been offered a job in the US, subject to getting a H1-B, and I'm really looking forward to it - the place I'm working is basically the place to go for what I enjoy doing. I've been in their community for about four years or so. I'm not being paid any less than a good US graduate starting salary, and I believe that to be reasonable for the skills I have. Frankly, the H1-B is a great way to get qualified people into the US, and I'm sure your country has benefited from it. Yes, it may mean that jobs go to forieners. But if they make the effort to be the best for the job, how is that unfair?
The father of my freshman year roommate was a professor at the University I went to. He was a mathmatician and he had written a C program to do mathmatical modeling. My roommate told me he was looking for someome to make some modifications to the program. I worked on modifying the program to run under both UNIX and windows. I got some good experience from it, and I was able to help the professor. I also got paid some for the work, so it worked out pretty well for everyone.
If I hadn't ended up traveling the China to study abroad, the professor was also planning to give me a system admin job for the department he managed.
The main thing is to keep your eyes open and talk to people. Talk to some professors you know and like, ask them if they could hire you to do some work (paid work looks better than volunteer on a resume I think, because it shows that the work you were doing was really valuable to someone.) Or if they don't have the money or need, ask them if any of their coworkers do. Don't just ask the comp. sci. department either, talk to all of your professors.
If no one you know needs help, go talk to your schools job search assistance center. They can help you look for something on campus that will help you fill out your resume before you graduate.
And of course, look for something that you will like, that is really important. If you are interested in the work, you will do better work, and then when your first post-graduation employer calls for a reference you will be remembered as a happy active employee.
--David
1. MRTG and monitoring. Set up MRTG and Netsaint on a Linux box, and charge for installation and tailoring. Think I'm kidding? I bought my first 4x4 almost completely with the money I made setting these things up - companies will be interested in them, if my experience is anything to go by. You'd be surprised!
2. Linux consulting. A lot of companies are running Windows servers that could easily be converted to boxes running Linux/Samba, FTP servers, and so on.
Brandon Glass's personal site.
This isn't anything new. I went from college to the "real world" about 2 1/2 yrs ago and the same problems were around. I even saw a job posting once asking for 7+ yrs of Win2k experience. ;)
My best suggestion is just keep trying. I eventually found a great job that has given me a chance even though I didn't have the "real world" experience. Make sure you read up and learn about these technologies though. There's nothing better than being able to know a technology without ever having used it. Also, take some certifications. they never hurt.
And I can't stress this enough. I did it, most of us have done it. It's a pain in the a$$ but it still looks good on a resume. Help Desks! Hey..you can even move up once you prove yourself.
but the current goverment policies seemed to aimed at asuuring that no qulaified American can get a job
Qualified people can get jobs. I blame the rest on the American public school system.
...as knowing linux well?
I can build a Gentoo box from stage 1, install / configure apache, php, perl, etc, make firewalls, use nmap, and even write network apps if necessary (I've written a linux AIM client). I run Gentoo on my desktop and my web server, and I've never had my server go down since I installed it except for power failures.
I consider myself to know linux pretty well. Is that what you mean, or are you talking about a friggin kernel hacker or something?
But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.
So, you aren't really dumb enough to listen to the job postings that say they equire 3+ years experience are you?
.. that will give up at the first sign of an obstable.
Apply to them anyways! If you can pull the load, then you'll get the job.
What they are really doing is weeding out the passive wimps that won't work hard enough
Are you that person?
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
Get into an internship program that the US Government offers.
Government has a shortage of good IT people, and with the looming babyboomer retirements, will have a personnel crisis.
All CS majors nowadays are taught that computer scientist is a specialized mathematician. Where were you on that day of class? CS majors should not be working with Exchange or with routers (i.e. tools), they should be researching. You should be a Kurzweil or a Coppersmith, not a Duwayne Peterson. It's akin to seeking an education in Metallurgy, and then becoming a construction worker. It's a waste.
most of those qualifications are deterrants to rid out the hobbyists. if you are deterred from even applying if it states 3+ years experience, then keep on looking. otherwise, go for it and better yet, look for the jobs out there that are not listed. that's where the gold is. once you understand that, then you'll understand.
By far the best way to secure a job out of college is to get an internship. I worked various computer jobs, doing everything from tech support to help desk to web site stuff since high school. At the end of my junior year in high school I secured an internship with a network consulting company. A few months ago, when I was a month from graduating college, I was offered a job from them. The salary wasn't from the dot-com era, but the chances of advancing thanks to getting certified and real world experience were too much to pass up. I was given the opprotunity to start small and really grow. Quite frankly, I have not been more happier with any job.
So basically, your best bet is to get an internship, get some real world experience from it, hope they offer a job when you graduate, if they don't you will have something that looks much better on your resume combined with your new degree.
Well, if the civilian job market is looking for 3-5 years of experience, why not sign up? I know in the Air Force they're always looking for Communications Officers (18+ credits of IT-related credits). This would a.)give you 3-5 years experience, b.) teach you management by putting you in charge of a NCC, and c.) expand your networking to a new group of people. This option is often overlooked, and while we're all deployable, you'll find being in the USAF a relatively "safe" way of serving. If you don't feel comfortable with signing over 4 years of your life, you could also try the Air National Guard. These organizations abound with networking potential, especially as an officer. Most people in the ANG do it for a chance to try something new, so you'll find numerous people from many different means of life throughout! Anyways, good luck!
I can't stress enough the importance of internships. Finding a company that will teach you valuable (not only technical, but buisness as well) skills is invaluable and should be part of every university student's curriculum.
:-)
Far too few "advisors" at university stress and promote the importance (and in my op., necessity) of an internship.
You'll not only learn valuable skills, you might be lucky enough to find a prospective employer, or a company that will help out with those nasty tuition expenses.
Too late for you, as a graduate, but hopfully some current students will get on the ball and investigate all options available to them while still in school.
On a side note, having an internship was great for me, as I communicated with my professors on what I was doing as an intern, and often times got a -lot- more slack when it came to project deadlines, missed classes, etc.
The older I get, the less I like everyone else.
It's widely known that in the dot-com era (mainly the late 90s) technology workers were well paid, and were snapped up pretty fast by startups and big companies alike, often with little more than certification or degree.
What kind of CV (resume) would be acceptable in today's market? Would someone like me, for example, stand any chance of getting a job in the US these days?
Brandon Glass's personal site.
As far as I'm concerned as long as the foreigners are U.S. Citizens they're have just as much right as me to apply for a job, and hell if they're willing to do it for less than me, it's no surprise they got the job.
There are times, like now, when the market is lean. I remember when I was 17, being unable to get a job at McDonalds, Taco Bell or any number of super markets due to insufficient experience. It so happened that all the jobs in entry positions were taken where I was. Merely being an honor student with club activities didn't demonstrate much. Perseverance paid off, and I finally found a job that taught me a variety of skills-- namely cooking, cleaning and running the register.
When the market is lean, you don't find the job you want, you find one that will let you dabble in what you like. Maybe you find a mom and pop or a startup that needs something you can do, but don't want to, and also needs something you want to do, but can't afford to pay someone full time to do. In three years, you'll have that part-time experience in the real world, which is better than someone fresh out of college with only what you had three years ago. Of course, if the economy picks up, or otherwise you find a good job before then, you've been able to pay the rent.
Networking also helps, be it through user groups or church or maybe your old college professors. Often a relationship that involves trust, demonstrating how dependable you are, one that prompts conversations that end with, "...[s]he really pulled me through that tough spot" can get you some interviews your resume wouldn't.
Network. That is the only way to get hired. I am 22 and was hired straight out of college pretty much by AOL. The only way to get your resume read is to know people. Granted I have maintained large scale production networks for 3+ years in college and had a lot of real world experience but I wouldn't have been able to show this without knowing someone. My advice is that you should have networked in college w/ people.
That's right! Ship the bastards away! How dare those sonsofdoggies take *our* jobs [even if the jobs aren't technically ours or America's, but just belong to the corporation to do with as they please].
Damn those CEO's [who by pursuing their own "american dream"] have the gall to hire qualified, efficient labor from another country when they could choose from the Ahmer_ican semi-illiterate masses.
[To hell with "the best man for the job!"] Companies should focus on finding the best Ahmer_ican for the job.
[To hell with capitalism and the free market] What we need is an Ahmer_ican gubment that will force those cooperations to do what's right.
[Forget the "give us your poor, your hungry, your downtrodden". Forget that "the american dream" applies to immigrants as well as residents. Forget that you do not have a *right* to have a job.]
Those foreign maggot spawn gots no rights to take mai jobs (I'm an Ahmer_ican guddammit)
[Forget that the very basis of the constitution is that *all* (men/people) are born with certain rights, and that includes those very foreigners who come to the US seeking opportunity (as your ancestors once came to america seeking opporunity). ] [Forget that many who come seeking jobs may eventually immigrate to the US permanently, meaning that then these americans will dare to take our american jobs. (This would also act as a "brain-drain" on other companies, insuring the US economic superiority)]
Out of more than a dozen tech jobs I've held, I only ever got ONE though job listings, and that was because I was living in a backwater place at the time and the company had few applicants. All the rest were by knowing someone at the company (directly or indirectly). You don't necessarily have to know them well; a casual acquaintance is enough to get your foot in the door.
The companies DON'T CARE whether you can find a job or not. There are too many IT people on the market, so they can afford to only hire people with a lot of experience even for an entry level position. They believe (correctly or not) that if they get someone with less experience it will cost them more money.
If you really want to stick with this career path, you need to find a company through friends, friends of friends, etc., that needs someone, possibly part time or as a consultant, and almost certainly for substandard pay. Work up from there.
Knowing the right people will get you a job, that's about it. I have been underemployed for 3 years now, I can't seem to get the right contacts to get a good job. What I call "cold applying" doesn't work. Send a resume, fill out an app. is useless if you don't know somebody. Period end of story. You can be totally incompetent, as long as you know the right person, whammo, you gotta a job....
If Kerry was the answer, it must have been a stupid question.
The UN - The largest "political" cause of death.
I graduated in Department of Computing, Imperial College, London (www.doc.ic.ac.uk) 2001 and found myself a job in a certain huge IT company (which has been around for 60-70 years!) so let me tell you my take on things.
I am lucky to join this company as an internship for 6months during the summer - I may not have all the languages and things that people ask for they are impressed with my grasp of what's going on, plus my involvement with Linux user groups and stuff like that.
A good computing course should expose you to all sorts of technology, techniques and theory. All programming languages, network protocols and stuff like that are pretty much utilitise similar theory and fundamental ideas - once you learn the basics of one you should be able to pick it up the other - In my first year I learnt Turing (http://www.holtsoft.com/turing/) and that teaches me to do a lot of stuff like data structures and stuff. I made a good grasp of how to write those algorithm using Turing and in second term I just pick up C and start writing within a few hours. (okay, I have done a bit of programming before, but a lot of my classmate have never programmed before they join the course, and they are now programming like a pro!)
A good employee should hire people by their general technical comptency, not by the certificate create by certain company whoose name start with M. A good computer grad should be able to pick up specific skills in the job. You will be amaze how clueless are the people who have MCSE certificate!
I would say to you there is no easy money in the world, especially time is tough (I am lucky I got in just before the crash). Work hard and learn hard and you will be rewarded!
Good luck, hang in there.
You may want to try volunteering for a non-profit organization that has a computer network - that will let you get the hands-on experience (enough to fill space on a resume with basically-true material and thereby bluff your way into an interview) you need to kickstart your career. Check with the Red Cross, Salvation Army, media centers, your local school district. Or check with your local vo-tech college - they might need (albiet low-paid) assistants/instructors for some of their classes.
The key point really is to be creative - the qualifications in a job posting are usually just a filter (since they recieve hundreds of resumes) to narrow down the number of interviews. Your goal is to get an interview - then you have to show the company what you can offer them that the other candidates can't.
That said, I wouldn't advise overinflating your resume to get into an interview - "they" hate that.
If all this fails, you may want to consider a career in nursing. Very lucrative field, very difficult to outsource/offshore.
90% Professional Slacker
Now, in many companies, your resume will just get thrown out because you don't match some HR monkey's checklist
This is a bit frightening. I haven't been officially employeed (only doing contract work) for a few years now. I would really hate to see what most HR companies make of my resume.
Would I even qualify for an H1B, if I (theoretically) applied to go to the US?
Brandon Glass's personal site.
You might try looking for a position in your University's Information Technology division (Or Computing Services Department, depending on the size of the university). They're often open to recent grads and your professors might even know many of the people who would potentially hire you. There's often a lot of freedom to try things and you get to experiment with new technology and aquire the experience in areas you feel you need. I highly recommend it.
If we were U.S. Citizens, we wouldn't need a H1-B. :-)
Some colleges have a way to give their students this required exprence. Kettering university is one of them. At kettering a student work in "the real world" six months of every year, wile still completeing a load of cources ranging from 32 to 48 credits a year. Their program is 4.5 years, so its alittle longer but with the work exprence i think it is work it. here is a link to a flash animation that discribes the program: http://admissions.kettering.edu/schooldaze/index.c fm
A lot of tech people with a lot more experience than you are going into nursing, as they are high in demand. If you insist on staying within the field, then I recommend acquiring specific domain knowledge in a hot field. It is pretty hard to be a generalist these days. It is a bad sign if all the books on your shelf are about programming, and there are no books about the problems your company is trying to solve.
For IT:
Try HARD to get an internship with someone, even if most of the summer is spent just stuffing envelopes... Just while you're there let the real IT staff know that you'd be happy to be a cable pulling monkey for the chance to occassionally look over their shoulder. A lot of the middle tier IT guys I work with didn't even start out with college degrees but instead started as tape operators, roof-rats setting up antennas, or spent their first summers almost entirely UNDER raised floors pulling CAT5, but they paid attention when the new IBM and HP servers were brought in, they learned how to automate some of their tape tasks with scripting, and they definitely helped learn the routers as they were being installed. I recall one instance where the actual field engineer was running into a problem getting one router to update its route tables properly, and the summer intern behind him said "why don't you do x?" which , of course, got the engineer a bit huffy, but the kid also happened to be right.
Try to help out your colleges IS people too, if you can, and work to get a chance to help with the bigger equipment. Volunteer as grunt labor for any major push projects they might be doing.
The disadvantage of all this is it pays little to none, but it does let you build "experience" and definitely exposes you to the higher end equipment. Be a voracious reader of any material, manuals, coursework that you can get your hands on as well.
well, I am working for a bodyshop and we make money by selling H1s (T&M basis)... let me tell you - we pay at least $30/hour to them and we can sell them to IBM for at least $50/hour... most of them have "fake" (to some extent) resumes and we know about it - but as long as the person can pass a tech. interview - we do not care...
As the owner of a small Linux company, we often speak to people in a similar position to the original poster. One thing that we see over and over is people who don't have jobs, yet they don't seem to be doing anything related to what their job might be. If you love programming, why aren't you working on open source projects?
Another way to get some experience for your job-seeking is volunteering. Two examples that come to mind are, our local Humane Society always seems to be looking for people with computer experience. We also have an Internet Cooperative which is run by volunteers and could severely do with some additional help. Don't worry it might be "desktop router" experience, we have a DS-3 and a 100mbps long-haul ethernet over fiber, BGP, ATM, and other toys to play with.
Either of these would be good ways of getting experience and would look great on a resume.
Sean
> How is one expected to gain that kind of
> experience when no one will hire you
> without the experience?
What? You weren't doing work terms placements while you were in school? I don't remember the time I last hired a new grad who didn't come out of a co-op stream. I just don't have the time...
As a college grad it is of course difficult to instantly obtain the N years experienced required for a job. If you are looking for something that does require something as little as 3-5 years experience, most likely the position might consider a new college hire. Now this point of consideration may only come if an applicant, such as yourself, shows some differentiation.
What have you done, besides go to class and get your degree, over the last four years? Did you have any internships? Part-time jobs? Independent projects? Extra-curicular activities (and no, the cheerleading squad is not what I mean)? All of these things can provide points of differentiation that might convince an employer that they will take an amazing new college hire versus someone who has worked for the last 3-5 years.
Remember, the experience clock does not start once you get your diploma. Ideally, it should start once you acquire an interest in the area of study in which you want to seak a career.
Good luck!
One thing I found out is that your degree counts as years experience. If you are applying for a job in the field that you studied in, it counts as at least 3 years! However, if you were an engineering major, and wanted to go into the world of finance, you would have 0 years experience. In my situation, I majored in finance and after graduation was told i had 3 years experience. Start putting that on your resume! GOOD LUCK!
For kids in school, this is what summer jobs and co-ops are for. I worked one summer for a university networking department pulling Ethernet and telephone cable, installing switches in closets, etc. It was a lot of fun and paid a little better than most other summer jobs. Also, big corporations, such as Oracle, Motorola, IBM, etc. generally have very good internship programs for various disciplines...some pay very well, too ($18/hour is a gold mine to a college student).
Other people I've known pulled whole semester-long stints at a job through a co-op program. A college degree plus co-op experience makes a really great resume and gives you enough experience to hold a conversation during interviews.
Remember that companies interviewing you right out of school are not expecting 3+ years of hard-core experience with C++ or Cisco or whatever. However, they are expecting that you at least have some foundation beyond "Computer Science", because they know that pure CS is not sufficient for being productive in a professional private-sector setting.
Also, I hope you didn't leave your personality at the door when taking on a technical degree program...
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
The real problem here is new grads are competiting against other grads, others with years of experience (and software to show for it) and connections, and the low costs of overseas. Basically, the job situation is the same as before the dot com.
This person has to do two things:
- Aquire connections; this can be done at lugs, contract shops, moving to a new place, simply spend more time on-line
- Produce software. Others need to know what a person can do and how they do it. If they are innovative, then they get picked up.
I would suggest that this person do both be doing some OSS work. They will meet others as well as have code to show for it.I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
A great way to learn C++ is taking some open source program and porting it to another compiler, it teaches you alot about linking, template instantiation, runtime messes, etc etc.
use open source as a learning tool... you have to make yourself learn.
Are the 3 rules for career success in our industry.
Go to user groups
Go to the state employent agency. They often have free classes for a lot of different things, contacts with people in the industry, and netowrking groups geared toward technology.
If you have your eye on a specific organization, contact there HR and find out if you can get a 'informational' interview with a manager in the dept. your interested. Go to the interview, wear a suit(regardless of what you read here, it is professional and expected 99% of the time. Asking if you need to wear one will not go over well most of the time, so just wear one.), have your questions prepared a head of time. Ask what they're looking for, what they really expect to see on the resume of an entry level position, and above all, get a card. After words, send a thank you note. Put it on a nice card, keep it short, and take it to the company. If possible hand it to him directly.
Next time you see an opening at that company, call that person direct. Remind them who you are, and see if you can either get an interview right away, or at least send your resume directly to them.
Even if you haven't heard the company is looking, contact them again in a few months to let them know you are still in the market.
It's a game, there are certian 'rules' that you need to play by. I know it's stupid, but there you are.
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College is the ideal place to pick up these skills as well. Not as a part of the ciriculum, but as a student employee.
At the university I attended, there were a lot of tech jobs that were only open to students. These generally started at a desktop support level or helpdesk work, but had the opportunity to advance fairly rapidly as other students switched jobs or graduated. Student wages were far below competitive for tech jobs, but the experience and exposure to real systems more than made up for it.
I did finish my B.S. in C.S. and am glad that I did, but that was only part of the whole "college experience". Being able to get my hands on Big Iron at the age of twenty was a part of it that no classroom environment could provide.
--Gus
That's the problem with the American job market and why jobs are being outsourced. Too many people expect to make the big bucks immediately. Even raising the minimum wage is helping price American workers out of the market.
If you're an employer and you have for example $50 to pay 7 workers on job X. If you put in the paper you have programming job X for $7/hr, a bunch of teenagers or college graduates might pass it over because they want the $10/hr or $12/hr jobs because fresh college graduates think they should earn enough money for a car, house, etc... If 4 people that are qualified enough apply, they can be paid the $7/hr and then the remaining 3 can be outsourced to India for a fraction, thus saving you money. Face it, we did it to ourselves. People need to realize that there's a ladder system. When you start working for a living, you have to understand you're place in the working world.
My mom told me how she met 2 Polish immigrants, 18 and 19, today applying for work at the gocery store she was shopping at. They currently work 4pm till 1am cleaning at a Best Western and such and wanted a second job 7am till 3pm (1hr to walk to the grocery store, and 6hr's to sleep). These immigrants are coming, willing to be hired at lower rates than the average American late teen of the same age.
My sister (20 year old natural US citizen) recently unofficially quit (just didn't ask for hours) after 2 weeks of working at PetSmart because it was too hard to clean bird poop for 2 hours then to "deal with customers". Her boss calls and asks when she is going to come back because my sister told him she's going on vacation, which is a lie. I can't begin to tell you how sickening this is, here a manager is practically begging for my sister to work a rather easy job (indoors, play with animals all day) and 2 Polish immigrants that work the graveyard shift at the local Best Western that clean rooms and take out the trash want a second job.
If this lesson isn't learned by the new working generation coming up, that you have to pay your dues early on and then get repaid back later, it's going to get worse.
The companies worth working for usually hire internally. They are smart enough not to give an important job to someone they don't know, who might be unreliable, etc. I just got a job doing Service Desk over the phone for Unisys(and oh how I hate telephones). Even thought I'm realistically qualified for more based on past experience, its a great start. Working next to the guys with lab coats is the first step in getting a lab coat :)
However with out the paper education, it'll still be tough to move up, thats an advantage you have.
Try to find a place with tuition reimbursment, too. That way you can learn for free what they want to hire you for.
it is easy to become associated with the 'support staff' and not be taken seriously for a latterial movein the company. This varies for -lace toplace, but I have seen it. I have also had to fight managment to get a person from support to development.
Stupid, but company politics seldom make sense.
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Blowjobs.
If you need some experience in this area prior to graduating from college, join a frat.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
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I hate to say this (since you are already graduated), but ALL students need to be investigating internships(paid or unpaid) in their fields while they goto school. With the job market the way it is, work experience is required to pad that post graduation resume. For CS majors, there is no reason you can't find a decent work-study job doing cs work on campus. Every dept/college in the university has it staff now, and they are always looking to save money by hiring students to do much of the tier1 stuff(our dept. has 4).
Since you are already out of school and can't do this, review the techniques you are using to find work. You need to treat it like a 8hr/day job, and use every resource in the world to find work. If you are looking for jobs requiring 3yrs exp...well duh, you are shooting TOO HIGH. As most others have said, you'll need to start at an entry level and move up. A CS degree no longer guarantees you that sweet do-nothing project manager job so prevalent in the late 90's. Your degree will, however, allow you to either rise w/in the company faster, or more easily move to other companies.
1) Identify what types of employers you want to work for, make a list and start making cold calls from the phone book. Dont be afraid to call it managers to ask them questions. It will be very informative, and you might make some really good contacts.
2) Prioritize 5 "realistic" types of entry-level IT work that you want to do, and tailor your resume to fit each of them. Do NOT fill your resume with every last tidbit of knowledge you think you have. Instead, make it realistic about your skills and focussed on those areas you do best, or are most applicable to the job.
3) Network, Network, Network-use/abuse friends, family, acquaintenances, etc to land that first job.
4) Dress for success-meaning, get your interviewing skills honed so that you can answer any tough question thrown at you, and appear calm and thoughtful. Remember, once you hit the interview stage, they've already decided that you can do the work. Make sure you identify what type of people they are early, and tailor your interview personality to it. ASK QUESTIONS(and not just about pay,benefits,etc). They want to know that you are really interested in them as a company,dept,etc. Lastly, you are the RIGHT candidate for the job, infact it is your job, just waiting for you to start it.
5) Look into non-profits, universities, etc. While they may pay a little less, often the work experience, and benefits will far outweigh the negatives. Also, that experience looks good on a resume.
As an employment counselor for 5 years, these techniques did wonders for my clients in their job searchs. Remember, every job you don't secure gets you closer to the one you land. Use every rejection and interview to hone your job search skills, until you find that employer that can't do without you.
Good luck
i'm just finishing up my m.s. c.s.. along the way, i spent two years working part time with a software engineering firm and eighteen months or so as a research assistant. i've been looking at jobs out silicon valley way since november-ish and so far i've been lucky to get so much as a reply email. the few prospects that looked semi-promising were all either filled from the inside or deferred indefinitely (just a /tad/ disheartening), so i can feel your pain. so far, i've been whoring my resume out to my friends who have jobs and scanning job sites every week or so.
personally, there are a couple things that i've been doing (doesn't seem to have helped much, but it's better than nothing 'cos at least i have something to do). if you're still in touch with your profs and on good terms with them, it's worth asking them if there's some research stuff that they're working on that you may be able to help with. you may well not get paid (and if you aren't still in your college town it's probably infeasible), but it's a great way to be able to put stuff on a resume.
volunteer work is also a possibility. as is temp work. not the most fulfilling, but it's at least something.
Turns out that Fedex only hires within its ranks. So there is essentially no way to get into the Fedex programming core without spending a year delivering packages. After that year, you would be free to transfer to a group that more naturally fit your skills.
HP was (and I still believe is) like this. I started out as a process operator making parts for printers. After two years and some college I applied for a new position as a database/software tech within HP and was hired. Soon after that I was offered a programming position with a different company (networking with friends of friends) and left HP entirely.
Don't expect to land in a high-paying dream job unless you are in the top 0.1%, have a masters degree, and there are empolyers banging your door down to hire you, as was the case with my brother. (lucky bastard!)
If you're already out of college, you probably missed an opportunity to get professional experience. Most professors will give you a job without even requiring a resume, because they've already judged your performance and knowledge of a technology for a semester. It does take some luck, but if you get a job with a professor, you probably won't need any past experience, but you'll come out with some.
Internships are good too, because the companies usually require applicants to take certain courses, rather than assuming proficiency based upon experience.
Once you're out of college, you kind of have to rely on your networking skills and your degree to make up for your lack of professional experience.
Be sure to show the applicant the resume you have, and see if they agree with it. I went on an onterview, 10 minutes into the guy is asking me questions about things I didn't know. I asked to see the copy of my resume the agency sent him, it had all kinds of things I had never put in my resume.
I politely informed him that the agency had doctored my resume, and then gave hime a copy of my actual resume. He called the headhunter. They exchange some pleasentris such as: "I can't believe your wasting my time" and, my favorite "I'll never use your agency, and I'm calling all the people you sent me and tell the about this!"
my point is, be sure it was the the person and not the agency. If the agency lied, then it's hardly the applicants fault.
Finally, are you hiring?
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It all depends on your attitude in life here. I agree with most people posting, find job, anyjob and work your way up. Unfortunately, experience in the field as well as a good degree will barely get you in the door still. You need to be willing to work for less, and work your way up in life.
I attribute to my suvival of the tech boom to working for less, and eventually, you'll work your way to true sucess, and plus you've learned many a lesson on the way, and can respect a higher-paid position and what it took to get there. Good luck!
I'll say it again.
Put your resume online.
Some large corporations get their future employees solely through headhunter style services. If you put your resume online it will get sucked up by their bots and jammed into a database somewhere. If you have the appropriate key words, you may even be picked back out of the database at some point.
At least.. that's how I got my job.
"I am the Black Mage! I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down!" ~8BT
If you're good at something and no one will hire you, start your own company to sell your skills. You'll learn a lot more about the real world there than in any entry level position.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The best way to get hired is through the network, having someone you know help bring you on board. Or even your weird Uncle Fester, though the work he wants you to do might not be too appealing.... ;-)
If you don't have that, or if like me you don't have a degree, you can jump-start your career through a temp agency. I did my first IT/computer related work through Manpower and Kelly. I had offers to go fulltime from two of the four companies I temp'd for. Most of the people who work for temp agencies are people who aren't able to hold down a fulltime job. If you get on an assignment that lasts for more than a few weeks and allows you to show some potential, you will almost certainly eventually get an offer.
Plus, it's a great way to see what different companies and industries are like. I only worked for four companies, but they were all in very different fields. The one I was at longest sells equipment for chemical analysis -- gas chromatography and suchlike. Fascinating and pretty amazing what they can do and how it's done, and I got to learn a little about it while I was there.
-Thomas
NETWORK, NETWORK, and NETWORK
This is easily said, but not easily done for many people. Imagine a person rowing up to New York City in a grass boat from a primitive island-nation having never seen such a city before. It is reasonable for me to say "Yeah, you just get on the subway, go to XYZ street, take a cab to QRS square, don't look homeless people in the eye, stay out of suspicous alleyways, etc." and actually expect that person to make it?!?
The people who are good at networking typically got that way over the course of their entire lifetimes, and the people who are not good at it have an uphill battle ahead of them.
-- "Makes Little Debbie look like a pile of puke!" - Moe Szyslak
Use alumni contacts to get internships and be willing to intern through college. If you are on mom and dad's health insurance and they put a roof over you, you don't need much money. Use this time wisely.
My company has four interns right now. They get paid peanuts but they do real work. They get to be lead developer on their own small projects with me looking over their shoulder.
To ensure I wasn't exploiting them, I asked each to come up with a list of what they want to learn this summer, and in exchange, they make me money. We do monthly formal reviews of their experience make sure everyone benefits. I feel that screwing knowledge workers is a bad proposition in the long run.
That said, I take mentoring seriously. Not everyone does.
I read that and thought the same thing. Then I remembered that seen from 'Office Space' where they guy says something like:
"I probably put the decimal in the wrong place, I'm always doing stuff like that"
Then the other two just turn and stare at him.
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The last one isn't really relevant, but it's amusing
Of course, they scoffed at the idea of a personal computer.
Fight Spammers!
Or start your own side business and include that as exp.
I agree with networking.
The computing industry seems odd in it's hiring.
. /. asks this question. RTF archives...!
...every couple of months somebody on
I think the most common answers are
Network, network, network!
Be an intern
Spam your resume across the internet, somebody will notice
Take ANY job
Go back to school
Start your own coding/tech/consulting business
MOVE to where the jobs are
Marry rich
Hack into some corporate computers to find out WHERE the jobs are
Go be an "Army of one", if you dare
Concentrate on porn sites, they always need skillled workers
Of course, 20-20 hindsight tells me I should have gotten into medicine. People are always going to get sick.
I know someone who's had 12 jobs in like 5 years.
A computer programmer seems to:
#1: Get hired
#2: Do a job
#3: Look for next job
Over time, theres more people looking for jobs(college grads + veterans), while there are less jobs available.
Personally I have a scientific computing degree from Carnegie Mellon, and I have one job lead after 2 years of looking. I also have extensive hobby programming experience:
www.pathofdreams.net/crazyj
Its the revolution that was predicted back when people argued if invention was a good or bad thing since people lose their jobs to machines.
People expected a utopia where machines do all the work, and people had lots of free time to do what they want. Now we don't exactly have the utopia unless you're a rich stock holder. But we do have a new class of educated poor people.
God spoke to me
a Microsoft user group? There usually friendlier, dressed better, better connected, and they feed you better.
I have been to a lot of user groups, and every Linux user group I have gone to spends more time bashing MS that doing anything interesting with Linux.
I mention this, but then every one gets pissy at me becasue I want to discuss Linux, and not bash MS.
Admittedly, it's been 3 years since I've been to a LUG, some maybe it has changed.
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Most of the advice I've seen here is good (network w/ people, get internships, take any work you can, work on open source or other "for fun" projects). One item I haven't seen yet is this: put your resume up on your web site. This is a long shot, and you should not expect to get a job from it, but you might; I did. Also try the various job boards like "monster.com" and "dice" and "hotjobs", etc.
Having a good resume is important, as it's usually the first thing a potential employer sees of you. A good resume should be no more than 3-4 pages (1-2 is fine, but don't make it 10; forget the rule that says "1 page exactly"). It should look visually appealing. Before reading any of the text, it should look well formatted, and nicely laid out. Everything should be spelled correctly, and use propper grammer.
Include more than just job titles; include a description of what each job was, and what your responsibilities were. I use "job" loosely here to include any large project you've worked on. When interviewing people, the first thing I usually ask is about something on their resume that looks interesting to me. Make sure that your resume has enough on it that the interviewer has something to ask you about.
When you get to the interview stage, be passionate. When interviewing, I usually ask the candidate what his/her most challenging or favorite project (work or non-work related) was. A good candidate will enjoy the work and therefore will have worked on something that interests them that they can talk about. My goal then, if we hire them, is to be able to match that passion to the project we have for them at work.
Do your research about the company. It's ok (probably even a good idea) to give your resume to anyone and everyone who will take it, but once you hear back from someone, you should find out what exactly it is that they do. That doesn't mean you have to know every detail about them, or every detail of the job for which you're applying, but it does mean that you at least know what their major business is.
Hopefully I won't regret this last bit, but here it is: my company is currently hiring; if you send me your resume, I'll pass along the good ones to our recruiter. My company is Overture, recently aquired by Yahoo!. We're located in Los Angeles (actually Pasadena), and we're looking for perl developers. Address your resumes to slashdotjobposting at ay2b.queue.org.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Job markets vary considerably by region. Being willing to work anywhere for your first couple of years can go a long way toward mitigating the need, in some areas, to be willing to do anything. If you want to do network engineering, then two years of systems development in Po-dunk (wherever that is for you) will get you a lot closer to network engineering in Glitsville than 2 years of answering phones in Glitsville will, and will put you higher on the food chain when you get there.
Finally, if you are qualified to do network engineering more than support, and it's clear from your education and background that you don't want to do support, why would I (were I the manager of a support team) want to hire you? Sure, you'd might be a good member of my team -- for the 3 months between when you get fully up to speed and when you apply for the network engineering position down the hall. I don't need that kind of aggrivation.
It's hard for me to stay off the soapbox on this one since most of my IT subordinates are fully employed non-degreed IT pro's working on degrees. Most started in the IT version of the mail room and worked themselves into their current gig based on merit and talent. I applaud their sacrifice to join the CS graduate club but expect the same quality work I see day-to-day. Hard work and talent is the secret...
2: Two words: Intern programs. You're not working for essentially free when you're part of an intern program. Instead you're gaining real experience to count towards that 3+ or 5+ years needed and you are showing your skills to a company you liked enough to intern for, and making contacts inside it. Interns have a much better chance of getting hired later to full-time positions than a graduate off the street -- provided you have done well in the position, that is.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I took Networking for 2 years while at college and learned hardly anything I didn't already know about computers, but I learned a lot about Networking - used to be at a different party every night, :P
I can relate to your post. It sounds like myself speaking 12 years ago. My advice is to set a realistic goal and go hit the pavement. You need to find somebody who is willing to give a new grad a chance. They are out there. Startups need tech staff that will work for cheap. Temporary agencies are a good way to get your foot in the door. But, don't expect a huge, hyped $100,000 job with crazy percs. You'll probably have to settle for a low-paying, but interesting job - or a better paying, but boring job.
Why? Because, except during the Internet boom, recent college grads don't leave school green under the collar demanding plum jobs with gigantic salaries. Those days are gone and now us techies have to work our way up the corporate ladder just like everybody else.
Don't get too stressed about it, though. There's work to be had. It just takes a little more effort to find it these days.
TODO: come up with a clever sig
Perhaps you might want to consider accepting reality in that most businesses actually are trying to run a business and are saturated with employees at the present time. The market sucks. That is reality. And the last thing an employer wants to spend money on is training newbies in the business (may seem near sighted, but it's reality when even long standing employees are having trouble in the personal development funding game). In fact, they've been laying off folks with years of experience! No certification, or other book knowledge achievement (that's what most certs are these days, and if they aren't they are unobtainium for entry levels anyway and non-starters for that reason). OTOH, getting yourself plastered with certs may make you more attractive -- no employer I care to work for, however. Real experience does matter and can only be gained in entry level jobs.
Oh, your college has sold you on being ready for the workplace? Wake up. Any college trying to sell you something anywhere close to that, for anything other than entry level positions in highly specialized professions is committing fraud in advertising.
Find an entry level job and hang your expectations lower. If a job is asking for years of experience in a real business, there's little you can do. Perhaps get a side job while in college in the field you're interested in.
Why are you looking at jobs with that sort of experience anyway? You're a beginner in the field. Get over it. You may have to start out small and improve over time, possibly be finding new employers every few years to get the neccessary salary bumps.
However, reality is.. this is a tough market for those folks that have a decade or more experience to bring to the table, so, do yourself a favor and end the frustration by accepting the reality like the rest of us.
There used to be an alternative. Go to a startup, where opportunity to learn and improve skills are plenty, and demand is high. But those days are over for the time being. If you can land a job there, good luck, you might be able to accelerate your professional life if you play your cards right.
Poof.
A lot of larger cities also have temp agencies that hire out tech people. This can be a great way to:
1) make some money while looking for a perm job
2) meet other people in the industry (networking)
3) get experience on systems you may not have
Some companies like to hire from their temp pools. They get to test-drive you and know if you'll really fit. But you're also getting to test-drive them.
To all those of you who have yet to go to college or are still in it, let this guy's mistakes be your guide. If you do not work (for a real company, doing real work associated with your desired job placement), you will have EXTREME DIFFICULTY getting a job later on. Really, the only way to avoid the Catch-22 associated with getting your foot in the door is to work during school. School is only a part of your education. Do not be one of the people who thinks it's the only part. You will regret it. Fortunately, I took my own advice, and when I graduate, I will actually be able to honestly say I have 5+ years experience with stuff most small time network admins only dream of touching (Cisco 12000, Cisco 6500, Cisco 6000, etc.).
Now, it's not easy to find the right place to work. You need somewhere that's going to be willing to let you learn AND give you responsibility. I started off the summer before freshman year of high school working for a company doing fairly simple database stuff. That quickly progressed into a demanding database programming and design position from which I was able to gain much experience and client contacts I have used as references. That job morphed into networking, implementing things in very specific ways where there was a lot of on the job learning. I spent a solid four years there doing all of this. By the time I left there, my resume was so long that when I applied for another job, my age was actually questioned due to the wide variety of skills mentioned on my resume. And no, they didn't think I was lying on my resume, as they questioned me about the things on it and hired me.
Moral of the story: Work, work, work. It's just as, if not more, important as your formal school education.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
When I was taking a C++ course several years ago, my professor would entertain us with tales of his wife's job. She's a programmer for Safeway (a grocery store chain) and according to him all their software is written in COBOL. I do sympathize with your plight. I ended up taking a typing job out of sheer desperation but I think it's going to end up okay. I'm starting to get a good reputation as someone who knows what she's talking about. I would advise all unemployed geeks to please look into doing technical writing. Sure its miserable and boring, but you'll have a chance to show your knowledge to the programmers at your company and you'll be doing all of us a public service by generating manuals that can be understood by our grandparents or our Marketing divisions.
Regards,
John
Falling You - beautiful
Make that little project or two you did in college "experience in database design with various projects". Make the internship where the boss asked your opinion "experience in IT consulting". f you did a good job at the one or other internship, ask for a brief describing your performance. Ask your internship patrons if you may make those '5 months' an effrective year in your resume. As a last resort you can move to the brink of lying. If your good enough you'll have no problem saying "Yeah, I got J2EE project experience" and learning all you need on the fly and in the evenings of your first half year.
Don't forget; The HRs asking for 3-5 yrs. of experience were the same ones asking a minimum of 5 years in Java programming when Java was only 3 years old. HR usually doesn't know what they're asking for and will bit if you're not totally stupid and leave an impression that your up to the job, no matter if you have 1 year or 5 of experience.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Greetings,
For me, I started to learn Java as I was graduating. Perhaps I'd advise to learn Eclipse for Java development, install Postgres, and work on making some fun programs that
1. Use a browser for the View
2. Use a web server
3. Use a database
If I could be so bold: Perhaps get a copy of WebSphere, as IBM has some good Linux/Java products out there.
If you want excitement, find a small place (but the stress and demands are quite high).
If you want "stability" focus more on the Fortune 500.
It also never hurts to keep learning, as there is always a skill that is "hot." Lately I hear about AspectJ (Aspect Oriented Programming that is Java based).
Me
Uh, Linux geek since 1999.
You are in a very bad spot, because you are competing with guys like me who dropped out of college and spent the last four years getting piles of cash to learn system administration and engineering while you were racking up student loan debt. Seriously, your best bet as far as finding a job at this point is chicanery.
Very carefully construct an open-ended resume that will get the attention of headhunters/recruiters just to get you in the door for an interview. For example "Built home LAN" becomes "Engineered and implemented client/server networks providing file, print, and internet services." "Wrote Apache modules for CGI programming classes" becomes "Developed e-commerce interface software," and "Configured my own firewall/router with Red Hat Linux" become "Router installation and management" and "Implemented secure network firewalls," respectively.
I think you get the picture. And have at least three intelligent people proofread your resume before you send it out.
Here in Portland, OR - there is Freegeek and Personal Telco, both great ways to get experience from fellow techheads. Austin has a great scene for this. Or, start something similar where you're at, if the niche is not being filled.
If your college has its head screwed on straight, they've probably got a career office. This is the place to go, even it's been the place you were looking for the past six months. If they want your donations as an alum (they do) they'll still help you even though you're now graduated. College career offices are where companies go when they want to hire graduates with no industry experience that they can mold into their own ideal employees before they get someone else's bad habits. If you're not going through a campus recruiter, you're just a guy with no experience to them.
Failing that, do tech work for charities while working some lesser tech job that keeps you in touch with what's going on, even if you're not playing much with the latest toys. Lots of charities need programmers, and lack the money to pay them. They get their app written, you get experience and a great reference, and most employers like seeing volunteer work. It makes them think you give a crap about something, which is a big concern when hiring 20-somethings of the Office Space generation.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
So what's to prevent us, the slashdot community, from forming a large "network" where we can find people with similar interests and go from there. I think the ideal solution would be to work it into the Slashcode, but could this be done in an Orkut or Friendster community (which there probably already is... I just haven't looked). How about a story on the front page where everyone can put a quick blurb about themselves so other people can find like-minded people.
In case anyone is interested in a programmer. My interests and aptitudes are in Web Applications(php, perl, mysql, and postgresql) and Computational Biology with a focus in structural bio, and sequence analysis.
Steve's Resume
Steve
most job listings are boiler plate ads by PHBs or secretaries. try anyways. like when java first came to the public slashdot had an artical about how the ads kept stating 5yrs ex.
aww the constitution
How did you manage to attend 4 years of college and not have any practical experience? You should have interned in your career field each summer. Part-time jobs evening/weekends.
.NET programming, Java programming?
Companies are always looking for help these days that is cost effective to clean up problems. Most of our light weight web work has been done by students and interns.
If you cannot answer any of the following questions with a yes and preferably with how they apply to the job, I HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN YOU.
Did you consider working at CompUSA, an ISP, etc. during the summers/holidays?
Are you the "go to" guy for your friends, neighbors and relatives for computer problems?
What have you done to further your education beyond the rest of the crowd with a CS degree?
Have you built some example web sites or programs/systems for your porfolio?
Have you contributed to any open source projects? Linux, Apache, FreeBSD, etc. have not come from thin air spontaneously.
Have you completed (or at least begun) certifications useful for your career?
Did you teach children/seniors/handicapped computer skills?
Did you minor in accounting, hr, engineering, psychology or any other area that would distinguish you from the crowd?
Have you had any jobs that you can relate to this job? (PEOPLE SKILLS WILL BE A KILLER PLUS as you cannot work in a vacuum).
Did you attend any user groups or linux, *bsd, Oracle, SQL Server,
Did you attend vendor presentations from CISCO, Oracle, Microsoft?
I have met lot of people who hate their work simply because they got a degree without understanding whether they would like doing the work the degree was for. If you have not done work in your degree field, how do you know you will want to do this for any length of time?
When I was young, I had to rub sticks together to compute.
Turns out that running coax through my parents' basement to play DOOM and Duke 3d (the 3rd one...) was good practice for the network of the time. Once you had the IPX stackloaded, you just added netx or vlm...and that copy of Novell I 'found' on a BBS worked like a charm. Anyway the point is you can get experience on your own with just a few PC's (or in my case, my friends PC's lugged over).
Throughout college you should have been installing win2k, NW6, Win2k3, Linux 2.2,2.4, now 2.6, exchange, notes, DNS, eDir, LDAP so you have some depth of experience with these technologies. Apparently you didn't. So maybe you are looking at the wrong field? You can't just declare yourself a networking person, and hope to get hired. What did you work on when you were in college?
If you only have one PC, dual boot. If it's powerful, vmware.
JON
1. Get out of college with a nice degree 2. ...
3. Profit!
I've never had any trouble getting jobs, even during the "downturn". My ability to get hired is more from who I've worked with than what I've done. A lot of people have "impressive" resumes. There are generally more than a few that actually live up to the resume, so even if you're truthful, you'll still have a lot of competition when you go the direct route to applying for a job. The three keys to avoiding this competition are 1) the lead, 2) the inside push, and 3) the references. You don't need all three to get a job, but the more you have the better you'll do.
The "lead" is how you learn about the opening. A good lead gets you the news before it hits the normal channels (consulting agencies, newspapers...etc). This gives you a jump on the application process.
The "inside push" is when you're lucky enough to know someone working at the same place. The more valued the person is at his/her job, the more likely their push will benefit you. When a company has someone they know is good, they are more likely to take their advice, and they are also more likely to want to please them (the better to keep them there). It's also important how close the person is to the position you wish to fill. If you're really lucky, you know a good manager, team lead, or technical lead on or near the project/unit hiring.
Everybody knows about references, but the relative quality of your references can make a big difference. When you can put down executive or upper technical level references, it can make a huge difference. Having people equal to yourself isn't bad. It shows you are liked/respected by your teammates. However, when VPs and Directors will take the time to vouch for you, it can impress upon your new company how valuable you were to your former employer.
If you've never had a professional job, take the best that you can get and live with it until you're able to move on. If you do well, and make yourself valuable to your employer and teammates, you'll be able to leave sometime relatively soon (2-3 years) if you like. I've been able to avoid unemployment because I have good people pulling for me. In my opinion, there's no better asset in getting jobs than the support of respectable people.
One last piece of advice, regardless of how much you hate your job, never quit voluntarily unless you have an accepted offer with a start date somewhere else.
"A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself."
Why would anyone want to give advice to some punk kid who'll be competing for your job next year, and willing to do it for 2/3 the pay? Oh well, I guess it's better competition than some towelhead who'll do it for 1/10!
When they laugh at a joke, they're doing it because everyone else in the room is laughing, not because they get it. Laugh last, laugh least, that's their motto.
This job market is tough - especially for someone trying to get started. My advice to you is to gain experience on your own, read user forums to benefit from the experience of others, and embellish your resume a bit.
I'm not advising anyone to tell any outright lies, but here's the basic idea: Find a job you know you could do well, stretch your experience (ex: start counting from the first day you opened a c++ book) if you're confident you have the equivalent level of proficiency. Create a few personal projects or get involved in some open source development and play up the importance of those projects and your role in them.
Essentially, a company has a job and wants someone who can do it. If you're confident you can do it, apply and tweak your resume to fit as best you can without any outright lies. Be creative. Do some follow-up calling, etc.
The other element is confidence. You have NOT been looking for work for 6 months! You've been taking time off for personal research, etc., and you're better qualified because of it. Interview them - ask them questions about the job and about the company, and research the company beforehand so you have some good questions to ask. You're NOT desperate for any job - this job interests you for a reason. You have plenty of other people interested in you, and they'd be damn lucky to acquire such talent.
Don't cross the line between being confident and being an ass, but don't underestimate the value of confidence (hint: this works with dating too).
entrepreneurship
Volunteer for a local charity, church, library, civic organization or grass roots group that needs a sysadmin or a webmonkey. You won't get paid, but you will get your work experience. If you work with them for half of a year, then put down on your resume just the year that you worked for them, not the exact dates. Maintain a relationship with these groups, get letters of recommendation, ???, Profit. No one says that you have to get paid for racking up those years of experience, as any intern will tell you.
Voodoo Girl is the bomb!
1. Splurge $50-$100 on a second-hand 16xx/26xx router on Ebay.
2. Learn IOS. No, seriously. Read the docs.
3. Download Ethereal and learn how to decode a packet.
4. Congratulations. You're now a good four steps ahead of the last dozen "network engineers" I've had the privelege of meeting. Ask for no less than $40k.
trustedworlds.net - gaming, security, and the gunk that lives in between
So nobody wants to listen to you drone on for 2 hours about how you know so much more than them? Why am I not surprised. If you want people to take you seriously, you had better have some constructive, practical ideas. Better yet, form your own company, treat developers the way you think they should be treated, and see how it works out. If it turns out to be a success story, write a book about it. It will sell, I guarantee you. If it fails but you learn a lot of valuable lessons along the way, write a book anyway. You'll have some interesting insights to provide to people. What won't get you anywhere is bitching about a problem that you made no attempt to solve and insisting people use your suggestions even though you have no experience in the area. Once you see things from the owner's side, you'll have a lot more insight to offer.
- is to look outside CS for your first job. There are jillions of experienced, qualified, unemployed software engineers out there, probably 20 or more for every job. Your degree is useless, get used to it,
I am still in college myself getting a second degree in Information Sciences and Technology (http://ist.psu.edu) and I have been able to find work pretty easily by simply offering to work for free. My goal is to get an internship and work for experience so I have been able to go into a job and show them my skills without them needing to worry about paying me. After proving myself, which often times has been only in the interview process, I am given a job. This summer I have been doing contract work that has been very lucrative because of this method. If you love technology you will do anything to get your foot in the door.
first -- the schools make a HUGE difference. if you go to a really large public school (40,000+ students) there tend to be a LOT of jobs that a state school needs done and can't afford to staff with full time techs.
at rutgers there were students whose 'part-time' jobs included configuring routers, firewalls, and switches -- doing system administration on systems with anywhere from 50-1000 users, and maintaining and developing web sites for virtually every department. some of the larger scientific departments had their own IS / IT staff, and those jobs ranged even further in level of technical challenge.
as others have mentioned (and it's a great suggestion) is to hang out with other tech's. the LUG's are a good place to start -- almost everyone in the LUG had a 'part-time' sysadmin / network engineer / network ops / coder position. MOST of them could have stayed on full-time upon graduation if they chose to.
the reason why i keep quoting 'part-time' is that even though i was a 'part-time' employee, i really spent 2+ years of college carrying a pager 24x7, being paged away from classes and exams, and in reality worked much more than my alloted 37.5 hour maximum. the upside was: great pay, experience beyond belief, great people, and the ability to do most of the work remotely.
I very strongly support Ben's statements. You seem to enjoy playing with home networking equipment and gadgets. Someone with your skill set should already be qualified to work with your Housing/Campus IT group on residential networking issues. Many universities have ResNet programs that offer paid positions helping other students with their networking and computer related issues.
Outside of the dorms, there are also campus computer labs and often research institues that operate on campus. The research institues are often doing real world research and often look for interns willing and able to help out. You don't necessarily have to help them with experiments, many researchers need IT help, either with their computers, or writing code to support their work.
As you'll find out later, it's not what you know, but who you know. Through working within these organizations you'll find that they often have ties to other organizations and companies. A recommendation from a manager who has ties with a company you'd like to work for will go further than the 5+ years of experience the HR dept was told to look for. It's a weeding tool, your personal network will help get you past this.
Once you're in the door and at an interview, show them how the experience gained via ResNet, Lab, and institue positions apply to the work you'd be doing for them.
ResNet - Dynamic problem solving skills, teamwork and interpersonal communication.
Lab - Technological familiarity with commonly used tools, applications, and their interactions with corporate networks.
Institue - Experience actually helping get something done. Show the potential employer how you helped the project. This was your first real job, and experience here shows that you aren't the same as the rest of the recent college grads.
With that said, take the best position available to you, but stay in your field. Writing automated test cases and doing QA work, might not be what you want to do forever, but at least you're writing code. If you want to be a developer, you need to start writing code. Don't take a job waiting tables, answering phones, or filing papers. These jobs don't further your career or get you experience. When "things get better", you don't still want to be competing with college grads. If you're 21 and don't know anything companies think they can work with you (if you can get in the door). Companies frown on folks that are 25+ and still don't know anything.
Hope this helps all you recent and future grads. Have a plan, start small, and START EARLY.
not a CIS or something that had no real technical value behind it I don't know where you get your information, but at least where I went to college CS and CIS students were required to take the same classes, with few exceptions. CS students take upper level math courses, CIS students take business courses. CS majors are also required one or two more additional classes.
God I love doing this - mostly because it lets me be a prick from behind the thinly veiled pretense of being helpful. I'm going to critique your online resume and I'm going to be honest. Someone did it for (to) me a dozen years ago and I cried during the process, but I took their advice to heart and about a month later had a job.
:
1. Lose the picture. Getting past the first HR screening means letting them be able to prove lack of prejudice, so being a 'while male in his early 20's', while putting you in the 'good' bucket, means that HR can't say that they picked your resume on its merits without regard to race, color, creed, age, or sex. If they know, what are the odds they skip over you because they couldn't show lack of preferential treatment?
2. Double ditto on the horse picture. How do you know that the interviewer isn't a big Christopher Reeve fan?
3. Lose the personal stats, Title (Mr.), Date of Birth, and Marital Status. If the reason isn't blatantly obvious, see #1 above.
4. The personal stuff at the bottom, specifically the bit about being an avid four-wheeler and gun freak wouldn't go over too well in the People's Democratic Republic of California or the Communist Federation Commonwealth of Massachusetts (where Boston is.) I'm a bigger gun freak than you are, but I don't admit it on my resume or during an interview.
The good stuff
MCSE, CCNA, CCDA, and BS/CS (cum laude, in three years - good job.) Oh wait, that's not a degree in software engineering, it's a degree in multimedia on the computer (also known as Flash / Macromedia.) Hmm. That one could go either way, depending on how well you interview. If you were seeking a spot in America I would drop the classes / certs on equine behavior and being a certified murderer (that's how some people view firearms in the two states that hire the most tech guys, CA and MA - but in Texas that might be ok.)
Last thing - if you are going to post your resume, do it on a domain that doesn't have anything else on it. Nothing like finding a resume in www.yourdomain.com/resume and when the HR folks go up a level and find a blog talking about sex with a different college chick every night. Your main page is pretty tame, but I didn't probe too deep.
That wasn't too harsh - but not for lack of trying. Good luck on the hunt.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
As you're looking for full time employment, are you doing anything on the side? If you know PCs, get some business cards, print up flyers and try to drum up business doing small office/home office/home support/computer repair. It's one way of bringing in additional income while giving you valuable business experience dealing with irritating clients (yes, I'm serious!). It's also one way of increasing your base of contacts; one of those people whose PC you clean up may know someone who's hiring and can now give a good reference.
Do you have hobbies? Try writing software that can be used in your hobby. Like building handmade birdhouses? Write a program to calculate how much wood you'll need for projects and how much it'll cost. That kind of thing. The software itself doesn't have to be very useful, but it will accomplish two things: it keeps you developing and improves your skills and it gives you something interesting to talk about when you finally get an interview and makes you look productive.
Employers hiring for entry level positions won't expect much in the way of experience, but they will want someone who can work in a team and is motivated and smart. You'll probably find it easier to improve in that area rather than getting useful development experience quickly.
Need exposure? Used Cisco gear can be had on ebay for cheap. There used to be (and probably still are) 30-day trial versions of Microsoft products like Exchange and SQL Server. Set up a small home lab.
Spend time every day either reading, or playing with your lab. You don't know enough. Really.
Spend time every day surfing sites like dice.com., but also hit up corporate sites. Don't apply for positions you obviously aren't qualified for. However, some good contracts are only up for a day or two, so check these sites every day.
IMHO, all a degree or certification is good for is to get you an interview. Once there, you have to show that you know your stuff. Be prepared. Research as much about the company as you can before the interview.
Be flexible. Work night shifts. Be willing to travel. Be willing to take short term contracts.
Accept that the first few positions aren't going to be your dream job.
And, most importantly, don't bullshit. I truly value someone who will admit when they don't know something.
When I graduated from college, I was in the exact same position as you. I graduated in the early nineties, while the economy was still feeling the effects of the recession. I could not get a job anywhere.
What I did was teach myself GUI development on my Macintosh. I wrote myself a little card game, complete with menus, windows etc. When I went to interviews, I made sure to tell them about my project.
Eventually, I landed a job at a tiny company that only had about 12 employees. The manager later told me that when I explained my card game project, he decided right then to hire me, because it showed that I had gumption and resolve.
I only made about $20,000 per year, which was not too bad, but not great back then. However, I sure did learn a lot in that job! Being such a small company, they heaped a mountain of responsibility on my shoulders. I came to realize that in such a small company, each employee has a large, direct impact upon the companies success or failure. Alas, the company lost a major customer despite our best efforts, and I was laid off after about a year. Towards the end, they were paying me with IOU's.
Small companies will be more willing to hire you than big ones. They may need developers too, but since they do not have the money to pay well, they struggle to find somebody. If you help the company do well, and you show real interest, you may brought on board as a part owner, with stock options, restricted stock, or something to that effect.
So how do you find these companies? Well, the first thing I will say is don't rely too much on the job boards. They are fine for posting your resume, but it is too time consuming separating the wheat from the chaff. Most of the time you will get no response applying for jobs through these sites. Instead, go off the beaten path. Read the business section of your newspaper. Go through the phone book. Use one of those online stock screening tools to root out companies, or just use Google. Ask around at your college; perhaps a former professor or student knows something.
Don't forget that you are young! I believe that everyone should take a shot at making it big at least once in their lives. Now is a good time to go for it. Just don't fall into the money trap. Wanting too much money will close many doors. After all, do you really need to take on a mortgage right away?
One final point, don't listen to the gloom and doom sayers. Forget about the dot-bomb, outsource-to-India, or the-world's-unfair claptrap. Pessimism will not help you at all.
I agree with you but not because of some type of bigotry... its for one simple reason.
Until those countries give the same opportunities and have as open policies for american workers to go to their country then we should not do it for them.
I have friends who tried to get jobs at startups in India, and its impossible for someone outside of that country to work there because of their laws.
What's fair is fair I say.
Why should we open our doors to their workers when their doors are locked-shut to our workers...until then, our doors should be as closed as theirs.
I am for global free trade... but a free market is not a "one-way street".
-- Given enough time and money, Microsoft will eventualy invent UNIX.
Just apply for everything you think you are qualified for. WHo cares if you don't have the minimum requirements for the job posting. I haven't been a 100% match for any of the places I've worked at, but they've still hired me to do the job they were advertising for.
Really your best bet to find work these days is to use who you know. After all, that's how I've gotten my jobs.
-maz
<happiness>beer</happiness>
If you can find a job doing phone support for what you want to focus on, such as Microsoft Exchange or Linux or whatever, you'll be able to land a better job after a short time. That's what I did.
Although a lot of jobs still say "you need a BS" most of the ones I've been seeing lately only mention experience, or mention "degree a plus."
You don't learn IT in college. By the time you graduate, the tech is practically obsolete.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
Dude, you've been given some great advice by your slashdot friends to include paying your dues, networking and joining some like-minded individuals through Linux user-groups. I wholeheartedly agree. There is something I'll throw in though; although the days of having a CS degree and getting a great job are forever gone, there may be exeptions matey! I know that right now (changes all the time) certain U.S. government agencies (FBI) are hiring CS majors right out of college. Not only could you gain awesome work experience, but it doesn't look bad on a resume. Political/personal views should be considered; but it could be a good ticket. You'd be surprised who you'd meet as real-live FBI agents in the computer investigations area- we're slashdot/unix/ groupies and very progressive. Hope it helps bro...
FOAD you daytrader conartists
Don't lie on your resume--but you don't have to tell the whole truth. (I worked at Pizza Hut when I was a first-year college student, but, Christ, that's not on my resume!) Slant it for each position so that it matches as well as possible. Go down the bullet list of what they've asked for, and seriously do your all out best to match every one of those items with anything you have experience (even non-professional) with.
If they say you need five years of C++, but you're a C++ guru with no experience, write that you have "Extensive familiarity with C++". I mean, no one cares if you have 4.99 or 5.01 years of C++ experience; all they care about is that you know C++ back-to-front. Read between the lines to see what they're really asking for, and address those points with your knowledge and experience.
People looking at a stack of resumes are going to be matching what they see in the resume with their bullet list of requirements. All you really care about is that it gets you an interview...I mean, there is no other raison d'etre for a resume, right?
Once you have the interview, try to, on the fly, figure out what it is the interviewer is looking for in a person. Then be that person for the duration of the interview. Don't lie--but try to mesh personalities. If someone doesn't "like" you during the interview, you're sunk. Being super-friendly won't necessarily get you the job, but not getting along will almost certainly destroy your chances.
But most of all, step one, NETWORK and get to know people in the industry. If you play your cards right, you won't even have to interview for the position. (I wasn't even interviewed for three out of my five positions. The one job where I didn't know anyone on the inside had a six-hour interview.)
NTLUG? Sorry if I'm being rude, but I find it incredibly hilarious that a LUG was named NTLUG. Someone thought it was a joke when they came up with that name, and then it stuck, right? Maybe next we'll have LUGXP?
Sig!
...at least you're not a Java developer. Companies are looking for 10+ years of Java development just to get an interview!!
In the case of some of the game designers, kids are so hot to work for the companies, they will do so for next to nothing. SOE, producers of Everquest hire a lot of people who have previously worked as online CSReps for long periods as a volunteer, then they get the wonderful opportunity to move to San Diego and formally work for the company for about $9 an hour. The future looks bright.
My advice would be to contribute to an influential open source project, or develop some Shareware programs and use those as references.
When you get your foot in the door, and find your first job, and (a year or two later) realize that you're not making progress and you want to move to something better NOTHING will change. The positions that you'll be trying to get will require not 5 but 10 years of experience and proficiency in five dozen different technologies. I wonder who really gets those positions. No one can be proficient in more than 3 or 4 different technologies.
Power Schmoozing: Tips and Book.
Nepotism. Nepotism. Nepotism. Nepotism. Nepotism. N e p o t i s m. nepotism : Favoritism shown or patronage granted to relatives, as in business. It it wasn't for family and/or friends, I wouldn't have this keen room in my parents basement and this great job of taking care of the retarded with behavioral disorders (as opposed to using the degree in CIS thats taken me 6 years...) Did I mention nepotism?
I was in a similar situation when I seperated from the military in 2000. I had some education but my degree was not finsihed (I will finally graduate in December of this year) and some experience from before joining the armed forces. I looked and did not find much that I could get into. I ended up working at a small "mom and pop" (literally) 3rd party support shop for $8.00 /hr (yes, it was very hard to pay the bills but my wife had a good job, which helped). I built up experience there, moved to another small shop and 1 year after leaving the military, I finally found a job at an enterprise-level IT department.
Getting That job really helped. I got laid off after a year and a couple months, found another job at an even bigger organisation and then 4 months after that, I got a call from the municipality I live in (which, I applied for when I was laid off) for an interview. I was offered that position as well (PC technician) and here I am. While this job is not perfect (I don't like working in government), it is very stable and provides good experience, in addition to the pay being quite good for the position.
You probably have to do something similar or, perhaps get some internship type positions at larger shops.
Networking is absolutely important. It is true that most jobs are had by people who know insiders in the organisation to which they are applying -- sad but true). I did not know any inside people at any place I have worked. So knowing someone is not a requirement but it can defintely make things easier and faster.
It will probably take 1 - 2 years before you settle into what you actually want right now.
Hope that helps you.
Mike
If you don't have a social network, find local technology companies in the area; use google, a phone book, or the local chamber of commerce. Find the local business get-togethers; they do exist. Bring a resume, be humble.
When I graduated in '93 ish the job market was similar as the ones today; it wasn't easy getting a job. However, after a month of calling around, sure enough, I found a small company that needed some simple coding done; I did it, and then moved on. Three things to remember when looking for a job and starting out:
(a) don't sign a non-compete; question it, if they explain its not enforcable, then smile, and say "good, we can cross it out then"
(b) ask for written job reviews early and often, don't ever let three months go by without a written statement of your progress, signed by your manager
(c) build a portfolio; unlike the 60's you don't work for the same employer for more than a year or so (especially when starting out), and if an employer doesn' like you, or your manager passes (which happened to me on one occasion) you may not be able to get verification of the work you did - publish, make open source code, and even do some voluenteer work that gets documented and put-up on their website
Wait a minute, what exactly is it that you are doing for these countries? Taking well-trained, experienced professionals off their hands?
I've probably used up a lot of UK taxes doing things like being born, going to school and then university after that. If I go to the US, they're unlikely to get that money back anytime soon. On the other hand, the US gets a productive worker without having to train them up first. Sounds like a good deal for the US.
And quite a few here just get paid, do their stint and are gone. That's life. They had the opprotunity and what they make of it is their business. So you go roll on the floor. Your future boss is stepping over you to work at her internship.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
If you need a job then you need this book. (amazon link) A new edition comes out every year under the same title. Very general, but lots of stuff applies to techical jobs. Luckily, I found this book before I graduated and it worked for me, I got a dream job right out of college. Made all the connections myself, and now I earn more than my parents. Hey, it's not easy, but don't let anyone tell you it's not possible. Good luck!!
... how much technical skill you have.
You will come out of school with a lot of base knowledge, but you will also have specializations and certifications that, like computer gear, are certain to become dated as soon as the version X+1 comes out.
It's highly unlikely that you'll be able to compete against newbie grads who, in a year or so, are coming out of school certified in version X+1.
I was extremely fortunate to land in a discipline with enough propeller-head skills -- but still, one which afforded me the chance to leapfrog over to the soft-skills. Now that may not be your cuppa tea -- and it's anecdotal, but I've seen it over and over. You can't compete knowing only technical skills. You need to have business acumen. You need to have people skills too.
Two years ago I was hired by this firm as a senior EDI analyst. Today I'm leading a team that is doing a largish project related only peripherally to EDI. Because I knew that when I got here I needed to bust my butt and make sure my people skills are showcased, and my customer relationship management skills are honed. Give a PowerPoint presentation to senior leadership? Yep, I'm your man. Fly to Chicago to discuss this 'n that with the customer? Here's my Amex number. But make this change to the EDI system or fix that program? I give that to the people who refuse to learn these soft skills, people whose jobs are rapidly becoming irrelevant.
And it sucks if you went through that pain, but the least you can do is make sure that no matter what you do -- volunteerism, co-ops, internships, even scut-level entry level jobs -- make damn sure that you can tell a prospective employer how you can give him value for his payroll dollar. Otherwise you're just one of a thousand like resumes in his In box.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
I've graduated a year ago, and I hope my experience can help you and other recent graduates, even a little bit, in this tough market.
I got my Bachelor's in CS in May 2003. I didn't graduate a Top 10 Ivy League school, or have a particularly good GPA, so I knew it was going to be very hard. I looked around for jobs for a while, went on a few interviews, but I had no clue on how to pass interviews, or how to write a resume. So, money was very scarce and I needed some kind of job.
So I got a job - I don't even want to say what it was, it wasn't programming for sure. I worked there for 8 hours a day, and then I went to my friend's office to help him set up his business - both software and hardware, and then I came home, practiced programming and sent out resumes. I read programming books on the train everywhere, as well.
After a while, I got really lucky - a family friend agreed to help me with my resume, and I realized how much it sucked. There's way too little space here and I don't have the time to say everything I want to say about the resume, but here's a few basic pointers.
Make it absolutely clear what kind of job you are looking for. Don't put there things that would indicate that basically, you would agree to any job in an IT field.
Put concrete things on your resume, that show that you know what the hell you're talking about. So instead of 'Programmed a Java', write 'Used Java to design and develop an inventory management application, utilizing Swing for front-end and JDBC to interact with Sybase database.' People that search through resumes on Monster.com or Dice.com don't look for 'Java', they look for Swing, JSP, JDBC - etc.
Don't lie. At least, don't flat out lie - everyone expects your resume to paint a little better picture than you actually are, but don't put blatant lies like 4 years of Unix experience while your Unix experience has been limited to checking your college mail at campus network (guilty).
Keep track of where you send your resume, what position, and what version of your resume. Nothing fancy, simple Notepad file will do. But it saves you a lot of valuale time while searching for a job.
Interviews - again, there are tomes written on this subject, but basic pointers again: SHOW YOUR ENTHUSIASM. Ask questions that show that you understend and are genuinely interested in the subject. The word "no" should NOT come out of your mouth. Of course, again, you shouldn't flat out lie - but if someone ask's you if you know skill X, instead of 'No', you should say "I've heard about it, but didn't have the opportunity to work with it professionally.. however, I'm a very fast learner and will pick up very fast"
The money question. The correct response to 'How much money do you want?' is "Money is really not that important to me, if the job is interesting and challenging, I would be happy with any reasonable offer." If they ask you to name a number, name a range. DON'T UNDERVALUE YOURSELF. If the job pays $40K and you say you'll be willing to do it for $25K, the alarm bell immediately rings in your interviewer's head - if this guy is so desperate to do this job for $25K, he must be a loser. Next!
So, in conclusion, looking for a job is a VERY HARD job in itself. You have to pay attention to every small detail and work very hard to succeed. In my case, after 10 months it finally paid off - I was offered a full time position and now happily working for a major financial company, with a salary almost twice as large as an average entry-level CS graduate.
Arbitraging? What sort of minimum bankroll do you need to make a stab at it? Not that I want to do it, just wondering. Seems like you'd be at a disadvantage with really huge companies with good intel, fast pipes and lightning quick computers and reflexes.
I'm pretty dull when it comes to that sort of thing. When I can squirrel away something spare, I buy hard shiny metals with it, then sit on it and pay no attention to the daily market prices. So far it's working.
@ colorado state, the CIS take business courses, a 1 semseter calc course(), a programming course (VB or COBOL), a design course(which is at best intro to design), a networking course (what is an ethernet card, what is cat 5, push this button to set-up the network, etc), a OS/hardware class( this is a monitor, it comes in various shades and resolution; there are multiple OSs available; Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, and XP) and a DB class(There are relational DB such as Access and SQL Server; Use this MS design tool ).
The CS program includes 3 semester calc (of 6 classes == the business calc course), a programming course (in fact the first one), Discrete mathmatics course, Data Structures, OS (thorey and design), compilers (make em), networking (build a tcp stack), graphics (design and code em), ai( design and code em with projects), software design, software engineering, and senior project.
Not the same thing. What CIS teaches at BS level, most CS students are required to know or aquire on their own.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I'm still in college, and I have a decent-paying job I'm rather pleased with at a major government facility. I got this from posting on the local LUG's job list. The trick is to intern WHILE you're at school, not after. Try to get something over the summer or even just a few hours a week (what I do), and you'll be surprised at what you can do. Some internships may even be paid, which is always a plus, but don't necessarily count on it (remember, this is during college, not after). The problem is there are gazillions of CS majors, and even if quite a few of them know what's going on from a technical standpoint, the stuff you do for fun is probably rather different from what you'll do as a professional.
And also, on that note, CS may not be the way to go. Not being a CS major hasn't hindered my programming at all, since all of what I need to know I learn from books, manuals or friendly older, more experienced folk. I find CS to be incredibly boring, so I chose to do math instead. Funny thing is it has cleared up my head a whole lot so far, algorithm-wise and such. Most importantly, many people welcome my non-CS major. I couldn't tell you exactly why, but people seem more pleased when I tell them I'm a math guy who works with computers than a generic CS monkey.
Just my $0.02.
The key is once you get into these roles work yourself out of them and into better positions. If you try to whine, complain, or brag yourself out of them it won't work.
It's also important these be small companies or small departments -- large companies usually don't care if Junior Support Technician #2679 is performing in the 98th percentile this week.
Seriously...
Check out the non-profit sector. Normally, they have lower budgets and are not concerned with the bottom line as much as for-profit enterprises. The jobs will pay a lot less but will get you the experience you need.
I know exactly what you mean.
How the hell are you supposed to get experience if they won't hire you without it?
I've been to both sides of the coin. I worked at a $BIG_COMPANY for a while as an unpaid intern (HS credit), where I had two bosses -- one for data entry, one for programming. I tried like hell to stay away from data entry guy. After a while, it got old, so I quit. Later on, they called me back for a contract, and after that another related company called me in for some stuff.
On the flip side, I got the job I'm at now basically by meeting the CTO and being geeky. Sort of lucked out that my boss has a clue.
When you do not have any experience, it helps to get certified in your field. Some may argue that it makes no sense to get certified without experience, but you will learn much. In addition, your certification will demonstrate that you are motivated.
Why would someone with a BS in computer science be looking for network admin jobs? That's like someomeone with a dgree in fluid dynamics looking for a job as a plumber.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
One stroke of luck that came my way after graduation was when my college professor, whom I had done some work for in the past, hired me to work on a project for about 2 months. Although the project wasn't long-term, it benefited me in 2 ways. Firstly, it helped put food on the table and secondly it helped to beef up my resume. The second reason really helped me in my job hunt because I was able to use that project as an example of how I had experience in a fairly large (okay, larger than CS homework) software project. People often say that internships are the best way to land you a job right after college, but if you're like me and was not lucky or did not try hard enough to get an internship, look for professors who need help with projects because those can serve the purpose equally well. I also worked as a Java developer for my campus computer store and was paid a pittance but that also served as a great resume item as it showed that I had programming experience outside of classes. Incidentally, I did not list my job as a computer lab assistant because it would not help my chances a whole lot. My advice would be to look for jobs with professors or with the offices and establishments on campus which will give you exposure to software development outside of class.
On a related note, a fellow classmate of mine got a job at Microsoft because of research he had done while doing his undergrad degree. I do not think it takes a phenomenally talented person to do that sort of research. Instead luck, hard work and perseverance are the main factors. How to go about doing research alone could become an Ask Slashdot article by itself so I won't go into detail, but the vital points are to look for a professor who'll guide you and who is doing good and groundbreaking research. Of course being thoroughly enthusiastic about the research helps too.
During my job search, I made numerous revisions to my resume and had multiple friends critique it. I also had the luck of reading the Interview and Resume Guide from Vault.com which proved invaluable for revising my resume and performing during an interview. Try and read good resume and interviewing guide books.
I also kept a brief journal of my job hunting experience. This helped me keep track of the companies that I talked to as well as how many companies I sent my resume out to. I am a lazy person by nature but keeping a journal helped to motivate me into sending out at least a resume a day.
Another stroke of luck for me was when I decided to travel to a job fair in the Bay Area even though I live in Southern California. That was a pivotal point for me because I met my future employers at that job fair. That made the 12 hour round trip drive I made all the more worthwhile. You have to be very determined in job hunting and grab every opportunity you come across even when it doesn't work out in the end. I went to another job fair in Los Angeles which turned out to be crap but it was a good experience talking to recruiters nonetheless. It also helped that I didn't have any preference as to where I wanted to work. The lesson here is to go to job fairs in places with a large tech industry such as Silicon Valley or Austin, Texas, and you'll definitely increase your chances of find a job.
Networking is also very important. Tell ALL the people you know that you are looking for a job. I got to know of the job fair in the Bay Area through a friend who was living there even though I don't talk to him on a regular basis. Other friends I talked to also got me phone conversations with hiring managers they know and even though those didn't work out I made the effort which is the most important point.
Good luck with your job hunt!
Help the elderly with their computers. Somewhere in every community is a center for elderly people who still live independently. Offer up your services to teach them how to use a computer or help do repairs or upgrades. It's tech support, I know, but it's somehow more rewarding than just doing "tech support."
After a little while these people LOVE YOU! You are the saving grace between them and their technology. It's like having 10-20 loving and caring grandparents.
Then... Milk them for contacts. Many of these people are very well respected in their fields and they've had a good number of years to build up a good reputation. You're doing them a very important service and they will happily repay you by writing letters of recommendation.
"One touch of Darwin makes the whole world kin." George Bernard Shaw
1. Pick a number, the lowest amount of money you can make and survive, preferably without eating Ramen 5 times/week.
2. Go get a job, any job, to pay the bills.
3. Look for a job that offers the chance to learn valuable skills. Skills that look like they will be in demand for the next 5-10 years (network/host security, db administration pop into my head).
4. Value that knowledge over the paycheck until you have that magical 3 years of experience that you need to get past the Human Resources goombas.
As long as you earn more than you need to survive and are learning you will probably end up being highly skilled and well-positioned in about 3-5 years.
They are scared of you either way.
Horrible as it sounds working techsupport is a good way to get your foot in the door. Not only does it give you experiance, but if the company is any good you'll have the chance at promotion. Every company I've worked at that had tech support had an unspoken rule: Tier 3 support was a training ground for junior admin positions.
It's not the best way for a programmer to get noticed, but it's a damn good way to be able to put some experiance on your resume. If programming is your thing, why not write some code for the open source community or contribute code to an existing project. You might not have any professional experiance, but having your code credited on a reputable project would look pretty nice as well.
Well, why not contribute to OS projects? For that matter, if ambitious, start one. These things look good on a resume. Experience doesn't have to be from paid employment.
The best place to get experience is starting _while_ you are in college and to do it at a mom and pop or otherwise small company. A small ISP is probably still great. The pay will be crappy, but you can get yourself quite the experience _and_ a track record that a resume needs.
I landed my first big job afte college when I spent years at a local ISP while I was going through college. A few of my customers from time to time kept biting on me to join them. I finally went with one, and it was a great decision.
If you truly can shine, you'll want to have a job where you 'perform' in front of as many people as possible.
Start at the bottom - do phone support. No, no, hear me out: You are practically guaranteed to get a job, and while the job itself sort of sucks (except for the harsh lessons about human nature and the initial work experience) there is one good thing about it: Networking. Call centers are gateways into the IT industry, tons of people in your situation pass through them. They work there for a while before going on to better things. Be professional and make friends, a guy vouching for you from the inside somewhere is worth years of experience.
Apply anyway. To everything you find. Hone your personal letter and interview skills. If the guy reading it thinks you might be a cool guy to have on the team you might get a wildcard. Look at ads in small town newspapers too.
It is too late for you to do this now, but a really good way is to get a job as a student worker at your colleges IT dept while you are going to school. You get the experence of an internship but you can work all year and not just in the summer or for a few months like some internships. A lot of schools use a lot of student techs and admin to help with the tedious daily tasks. A key thing to getting these jobs to asking and seeming trust worthy and reliable. So stay on your profs good side and go to class so they can be references when applying for these jobs. A lot of CS students won't even take them because they don't pay much but are a great place to learn. If you think you might like working in Higher Ed IT then working for your university as a student will be a big selling point when applying for any IT Jobs in Education. IT in Education, at least Higher Ed, is a lot different and they are more likely to hire staff members who understand that culture.
I work at the Lawrence Livermore National Labs in Livermore, California. At least at Lawrence Livermore (LLNL) there are excellent summer internship programs. Each "Directorate" has a summer internship program. The directorates include "Computation" (the directorate I work in), materials science, engineering, physics, chemistry and molecular biology. Internships are available for both undergrads and graduate students. At the graduate student level there are divisions that also hire people outside of the sciences (like East Asia experts).
You need to apply early, usually the year before (by December 31 in some cases) or early in the year (by January or so). Some programs require letters from your professors. So start early. At least at LLNL you need to be a US citizen. There is a basic background check for summer jobs.
Hiring at "The Labs" ebbs and flows, depending on funding. If you take part in a summer program and you impress people during your internship, there is a better chance that you will be offered a job on graduation.
The projects are interesting and it is a good chance to get experience. A friend of mine's daughter is working in an internship in materials science. They are giving her access to the MEMS silicon fabrication facility (which, she tells me, costs more than they are paying her for the summer). Summer projects in computation in the past have involved networking and cryptography.
The summer programs are closed for this year. You can find them described on the LLNL web site (llnl.gov). The directorates do the hiring, so please don't send me your resume. I can't help in this area.
There are a number of other national labs with summer programs. Labs that come to mind are Los Alamos (LLNL's "sister lab"), Oak Ridge, Argonne, the Pacific Northwest National Lab. There is also an Dept. of Energy engineering lab in Idaho, but I don't know if they hire summer students.
Finally, for what it's worth my heart goes out to anyone who is graduating in CS or engineering these days. In my twenty four years working in this industry I have never seen times like these (and that includes the 1992 down turn). As others have noted, the problem is that there is unemployment among experienced engineers, so this makes it doubly difficult for new grads.
The irony is that from what I've read, hiring is booming for engineers in India (see my essay An Economics Question). This is one reason I'm grateful to have a job at a National Lab. My work requires a security clearance and it will never be moved overseas.
"Your attitude displays an astonishing lack of maturity--if you are good at your job, you will want mentor others and pass along your knowledge and skills."
And if she's good looking enough? You can pass on something else.
"Ha, I wish - I'd welcome the help - it seems impossible to find quality unix admins who know linux well - usually we get some joker in here who plasters his resume with buzzwords, but in reality never uses anything but windows - we quickly find out he's a phony and show him the door. There are some real linux savvy folks out there, but they are hard to find among all the posers..."
That's because the good ones by definition, aren't unemployed. If they were unemployed, and available? Were they any good to start with?
I'm also a new grad looking for a job (though I have an MS which some employers consider equivalent to a couple of years experience), and my experience is that the listed job requirements are often BS.
I've applied nd gotten interviews for a number of positions 'requiring' 3+ or 5+ years of experience, and experience with a slew of toolkits, libraries, etc that I know nothing about. I haven't been hired yet, but employers are willing to consider me seriously even when I have nowhere near the experience they are asking for.
So if you see a job you like, send off a resume even if they want a little more experience than you've got.
Also, if you can, try to get in touch with recruiters -- they can be very useful in getting you noticed and asked in for an interview.
I knew I had to work while I was in school if I expected to get a job after getting my Master's in Information Systems. And so I did. The first semester I worked in the IS computer lab, tutoring C++, fixing problems, and maintaining computers. The next three semesters I worked half-time for a non-profit agency (economic development!) as a combination of database admin, network admin, and tech support for a mixed MS-Mac network. The third semester I worked on contract for the company one of my profs ran. There I maintained a mixed MS-Linux network, packaged the software product for installation, and did software tech support. The last semester I chose not to work so I could complete my program, which required three full software development projects that semester. So I had experience. Could I find a job? No. The economic development agency networked for me, but nobody was hiring. The prof who hired me let ALL his employees go for lack of business. I've had interviews, but every time I walk into an interview the interviewer(s) looks shocked and wraps it up as rapidly as possible. Why? I'm a female, over 50, and no one seems to want to hire anyone their mother's age. They just aren't comfortable with it.
You mean you didn't get summer internships when you were at college?? It's a bit late to go back and do that now.
...
Volunteer. Are you doing the job for money or experience? Lots of places (esp. non profit) wouldn't mind having a helping hand.
Somebody said networking. Screw networking. It doesn't matter who you know if you've got jack-shit experience.
Internship, co-op, summer job
...who wouldn't take any of the following from one of their employees as an excuse for missing a deadline:
a) An immediate family member being seriously injured or dying.
b) A serious injury.
c) Holidays scheduled a year in advance.
I bet you'd immediately fire an employee for stealing if you found out they'd taken a company bought pen home.
I know people like you. I think you belong in a dickens novel somewhere, not in the real world. You'd bring back slavery if you couldn't wouldn't you. (And in fact if everyone took your advice you'd virtually have it - a society of people who ONLY care about working their asses off just as the bare minimum).
Learn to be less harsh and more of a human being. You'll be happier and have more friends. It doesn't matter what you earn - if this attitude translates into your personal life I can guarantee you're not a happy person.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
....did you lose youe sense of humor?
As someone who has gotten a lot of college guys their first job, a temp stint on the help desk tells me - if they have any clue that this is a business or if they just want to bore secretaries w/ talk about PERL scripts - whether they are focussed on delivering business value (a system that the cusatomer knows theey can use) oe jsut get [l]Users of the phone so they can get basck to reading /.
- whether they can handle figuring out ystmes they have not yet been certified for with grace.
- useful intelligence.
I would rahter hire someone with smarts, commitment to customer value, and afocus on the customer than experience and a bad attitude any day.
I know it's hard news to take but despite the fact that the market is improving in most major metro areas many companies still think they can get the best for pennies. And as someone who does technical interviews for my company I would strongly recommend against lying. You can "creatively embellish" a little but there is a fine line. Most interviewers will call you on it if it's blatant. It basically comes down to taking a job for money you wouldn't normally have taken but gives you the experience, get a year or two under your belt and start looking for something better. I would suggest trying to find a consulting group if possible. It will give you a chance to make contact with multiple clients and get a wider variety of experience. Also get involved in professional orgs in your area for whatever technologies you want to be involved in. Like many have said before ... NETWORKING, NETWORKING, NETWORKING ... it's not just for routers and switches!
"One last rule of thumb: Never change jobs for less that a 10% pay increase."
If you were working at Caldera when McBride arrived and you had a chance to move (even with a pay cut), I think this might have been the smart move. How will any programmer who stayed with SCO live this down? (I know; you had to feed the wife and kids, make payments on the credit cards and house, etc. Still, you will be marked for life.)
He is exactly correct. When I graduated, it took me a long time to find a job in the slumping market...9+ months. The main culprit? In retrospect I should have reached out to more people. You'd be surprised how many connection 1 new friend can have.
He said:
...and with kindness intended, received the reply;-)
;-) In either case, you will need an accountant and a lawyer when you are finished... oh, and good luck!
Any suggestions from the Slashdot community will be of great benefit to myself and thousands of others who will enter the 'real world' in the next few years."
GET A CLUE, you are not unique, yet!
I am not trying to be unkind and here is why.
I work in a computer graduate department and hold a weekly seminar for all advance degree students; where 'projects' (the thesis) are discussed.
This is where 'an eye is kept out for talent'!
Your B.S., no offense, is similar to a high school diploma and carries 'that much weight' in today's job market.
In defense of friends who are highly regarded in their fields, and have no formal education, it can be done; however, from personal experience, most of these folks were very specialized and had 'very' unique talents.
So... in my opinion, you have two choices: 1) go back to school and use the graduate thesis to construct something Nobody can live without 2) do it yourself (A lot of people believe they can do this, but it is harder than one might think.).
My experience has shown graduate school works best for most people with your 'thoughts'.
You'd be surprised how much that doesn't work.
I recently filled 3 of 4 open positions in my section and will be interviewing people for the fourth one next week. When I go through a stack of resumes, I triage them like this:
- Yes, contact these people. They get a first interview.
- Maybe. If the best people in the Yes group have already taken jobs or othewise don't work out, this is the stand-by group. So far, we have never had to call anyone in the Maybe group.
- No. People in this group are one or more of: way over-qualified, way under-qualified, totally unqualified, way too expensive, are in some other way unqualified (sometimes we relocate people, other times we want to make a local hire, for example), or they were caught in some lie on their resumes.
Among the members of the No group for this round of hiring is a person who was pretty well qualified (possibly over-qualified, but I would have put him in the Yes group) but was caught with BS on his resume. He is in the No group not just because that one part was a lie, but because at that point I instantly lost all confidence in all of his claims of experience. Anyone who has been looking at resumes for a while can recognize the BS pretty easily. If I see BS on your resume, you go into the No group. Do us both a favor and be honest. If you're honest, the worst thing that can happen is you won't get that position, but if your resume seems OK but just wasn't right for that position, I'll hang onto it. You never know what might come up in six months. If I catch you lying, your resume goes into a file of people who will never be contacted for a job with us.
Also, we do background checks before extending job offers. If you succeeded in BS on the resume and again at the interview, but get caught in the background check, not only will you not get the offer, you will never interview with us again. If you get by all that and get an offer and get hired and it becomes obvious the you just lied really well and got hired anyway, you will be fired. So far, no one has gotten past us.
I look at all the resumes I receive. It's true, triage takes out most of them. That's just a hard fact of life that comes from the fact that there are far more applicants than there are positions. I usually wind up with two (and sometimes three) resumes in the Yes pile for each open position. We interviewed six people for the three positions filled so far, and on of the other three was referred to another section where we knew they had an opening and her skillset matched what they needed a lot better than it matched what we needed. We still interviewed her, but we invited that section's manager to the interview and that manager asked most of the questions. The applicant is now a finalist for that position. If she had given us BS on her resume or in the interview, that would never have happened.
Bottom line: honesty on your resume and throughout the interview process is really the best policy, even if it sometimes looks like BS could be a good shortcut. The best people to work with and for, at the best places to work (and I think we are pretty good in both of those respects) will hire you as much for honesty and personality fit with the team as for technical ability. So much of effective management and team-building comes from recognizing people who don't *need* to be managed and who fit in well with each other and easily form a cohesive team, that if you don't meet those criteria then we don't care about your technical skills. I want people on my team who are honest, self-motivated, get along well together, and have no "issues" that I need to deal with. If you don't meet those criteria, I have no use for you. So don't lie on your resume or in the interview.
Be honest. It won't always get you the job, sometimes it might cost you the job, but if you sling BS either on your resume or in person, I guarantee it will cost you the best jobs out there.
When I entered my first senior year, I faced the same dilemma as you. My solution was to go back to school for a fifth year and get an internship at VoIP telco. The telco was hiring "Network Operations Administrators" which is simply a glorified term for people who answer telephones.
What was key about this internship was the exposure it gave me. Before this internship I had always played at the desktop level. For the first time I had access to they types of toys enterprises use. Because I asked for access, and showed a willingness to learn, I was given root access on a couple of development boxes. I began by writing simple C++ programs to parse log files, and make my job as a Network troubleshooter easier. Before long I was able to answer questions from our customers better than the engineers above me.
Within a year I was promoted, and became the Operations Supervisor, and resident *NIX hack. The key of course was that I sought out an oppurtunity that would give me experience using my system admin skills/programming skills.
Let me summarize. Don't look for a job as a programmer if you don't have programming experience. Instead look for a job doing something else around programmers. Even if its licking their boots, and filling their coffee cups. Once you get in the office, if you show aptitude, you can gain access to the tools you need to learn. The idea is that after a year or two in that environment, if you've demonstrated your abilities, someone will eventully give you the oppurtunity to use your skills.
If you don't get that oppurtunity it is because a) you have a bad boss or b) you really don't have any talent. In either case the key is change jobs.
The other suggestion I have is to work for a small company. Small companies are key because they don't care what your qualifications are. If your a janitor at a small company, but you know how to program, it won't take long before you have the oppurtunity to use your skills.
Have you been to the Nerdshack yet?
Work experience (for free, in my case funded by the government (the welfare state is great, when I do get a job I will be contributing back, more than has been spent on me. You americans don't know what you're missing).
The number of jobs which advertise as being 'ideal for graduates' but ask for '2 years commercial C experience' or something like that are ridiculous.
And then companies hire a bunch of phycisists who 'know C' but can't engineer software to save their lives (the company then goes bust, but that's not the point).
The fact that I had a social life at Uni counts against me. And I don't want to go into management for some accountancy comapany.
Its fucked up.
Don't just look at networking toward those people who are involved in tech companies... There are plenty of non-tech companies out there who need programs written, and networks maintained. Computers have become such a major part of life that just about every company needs computer people, regardless of what they do! Not only will you gain good experience, but you'll learn a lot of new, interesting things that are completely unrelated to computer science. The beauty of computer science is that it can be applied to anything!
Ignore the experience required (within reason of course), and try to get the CV to the hiring manager rather than HR. The only thing that's certain is that if you don't apply for a position, you won't get it. Make sure you tailor your CV to emphasise all the other things that match the job requirements though.
If you can get an interview you can impress enough to get a offer. Maybe not the one you applied for of course, but many companies offer interviewees other positions if they think they are good. At worst you will have gotten some interview experience, and a chance to meet somebody with hiring ability or influence at a company.
"skills" beyond "new ways to insult users without them noticing".
I think the crew at User Friendly (except Stef) would be insulted at your tone; these are important skills.
This is kind of cute (and weird); I love "Link of the Day."
It's a little late, but I need to tell you, FU
Fuck that!
And here's even better advice when looking for an internship: get someone inside a tech company that doesn't normally do internships to ask around to see if they want to get an intern. Really, the ideal situation you want is to create the internship position, in which case you have a high possibility of being the only applicant! Then there's no difficult interview or application packet. I'm working an internship this summer, and this is how I got it. I made it into town on my spring break for the "interview" which was short and sweet, and more an outline on what I would be spending my time working on. And no, I'm not going to give out a company name. I would rather not have any compitition for the next time I want to work there, either.
//TODO: signature
Not to undermine your education, but the answer to every college graduate's problem is that of cooperative education and/or internships. Although 4-5 years ago it might have been hard to forsee such a tight job market - especially in the tech sector - nowadays, it's clear that colleges with cooperative education programs are key in attaining a decent job right out of college, although graduate school is another option many students are considering nowadays.
I will be attending Northeastern University in the fall, as a CS major. And while they aren't necessarily in the Top 10 for computer science in the nation, I can rest pretty well assured, that as long as I maintain a pretty decent average, I will be able to secure a job upon graduation. Northeastern, along with RIT, and Drexel University to name a few, has the best co-op program in the country, and seems almost vital in getting a job.
It provides 3 wonderful things:
1) Money. Depending on your GPA and job field, possibly enough to cover tuition costs the last 2 years of school (which is unfortunately very high, almost $40k).
2) Experience. 18 months of full-time, legitimate work. Real experience.
3) Job oppurtunities. Besides the connections you'll make and the networking possible from being on the job in the real world, a very high percentage of students end up working for one of their co-op employers upon graduation. Some employers think of it as a permanent position, with 6-month breaks for the employee to learn a little more. And even some employers will send you off to grad school, which they'll pick up the tab for.
So, if anyone's still reading this, somehwere on the 3rd page... That's why I feel you simply went to the wrong school. Good luck in your job search though, I'm sure you'll find work.
I started out as a word processing-lab assistant, for minimum wage, quickly graduated to the faculty lab, then on as a full sysadm running all the computer systems. Along the way, I picked up a TON of experience including Novell (hey! it was neat back in the day,) UNIX, Linux, and Cisco networking.
Medium-sized schools or bigger tend to be pretty well equipped, even if it's not readily visible (does you school have labs spread across multiple buildings, dorm-networking, wireless???)
I leveraged that into a good IT engineering position, and beyond.
Get in with your UCS/ACS/OIT/Whatever it's called, department, and you can learn a heck of a lot.
-buf
We, for one, hire coders (and others) who have no prior work experience. In fact, that is my prefered choice. And I'll tell you why.
;)
First, let me be clear... no prior work experience doesn't mean we hire people with no talent. It's just that we don't count of a long resume as an indication that someone is without merit. That's just laziness (or necessity, time being money in the hiring process).
What we look for is someone who knows what they are doing and can demonstrate that to is in their resume cover letter, and ultimately at one of our interviews. We won't ask any of the stupid Microsoft questions except to see if you've been to the web site that has the answers accumulated (grin). But we will put you through a tough interview that focues on your ability to write code. If you can do that, it's a walk in the park. If you can't, we'll both know it's not a match real quick. But we'll still take ya to lunch, our treat.
One thing I've learned over the last 15 years... a resume is a damn poor indication of someone's talent. Therefore, if you ever want to apply for a job with us, go ahead and incude a resume but be damn sure you spent the time to make a cover letter that sells yourself. This will probably be true of any place you try to get hired on. (isclaimer: I've never really had to send a resume or go on an interview, but I've interviewed and hired hundreds over the years. So I can only speak to my experience directly.
In my case, I read resumes only if the cover letter intrigues me. A good cover letter should skip the pretence ("Seeking growth opportunities where I can apply my extensive education in bladibla..."). Save it. Just tell me how you code your butt off doing the kinds of things we do, and it might be cool to see if there is something we're doing that you'd like to be part of. Some examples of the stuff you've done is a huge win. Talk the talk. You're cover letter is being read by coders.
For me, I also like to see what areas an applicant wants to learn more about. We strive to find raw talent and give them a chance to really learn in the trenches. We've trained a lot of coders and 3D Artists, fresh out of college (or still in college) and continue to today. It's fun, rewarding and a way for us to give back.
So, yes, there are places you can get a job without experience. And have a blast doing cool stuff at the same time. I think there should be more, personally.
We're even hiring now, if anyone's in the market, email me and I'll turn you onto the right place to inquire.
David Whatley
http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/the_char acters/html/character2.html
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
It may be a bit too late for this guy who's already out of school, but one of the most effective ways I have found to get myself networked was to join a lab at school. Most professors are more than happy to take in cheap, if not free, student help. I started hanging out at a network lab, made friends there, and eventually, when a student-help position opened up, I was chosen. This position later led me to a lot more futher networking, and eventually I scored an internship with my current employer.
Do not waste the time when you are in school, it's probably the only time you can get away with no experience at a job interview. Once you are out of school, your interviewers won't be so kind to you.
The IT field seems like a cage full of starving wolves fighting to the death over a few tiny scraps of left-over food. The field was the same in the early 90s.
I bet chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers, don't have this sort of trouble. Neither do medical professionals, or truck drivers.
It's not unusual for the lower level IT workers to earn less than the janitor - and with less job security. Not much more upward mobility either - unless there's another dot-com type boom.
When you do find that reasonable entry-level job, chances are it will be filled by somebody with no computer training or experience at all. The higher level jobs will also be filled by the unqualified while the qualified go starving. PHBs that hire computer pros are in a class by themselves.
You can thank your president for that
I myself am a recent B.S. in C.S. grad (Notre Dame class of 2003). It took me nine months of searching to get a development job in C++. And when one finally came through, sure enough the interview was set up by a friend of my family's from church.
I disagree with the need for an internship anywhere. I worked a lame-a$$ job in a warehouse for a few months while I was searching. The pay wasn't that great, but it was quite an experience and really makes me appreciate being a software engineer now. Internships can be just as hard to find as a career.
While most of these positions may claim they're looking for 5+ years experience, there really are entry-level jobs hidden between them. I say hidden because it seems like you'll never find them in an ad or online. You hear about it through word-of-mouth. God knows I thought it would never happen, but magically I had two job offers after nine months of nothing. The problem is that I'm not very outgoing or superconnected. Social networking is tough. But it's strange how life just works out sometimes.
Hang in there buddy, I'm rootin' for ya.
It may be the IT equivalent of a McDonalds burger-flipper, and you'll hate (almost) every day of it, but it will get your foot in the door.
That's my experience anyway. I started out as a lowly helpdesk analyst for a small biotech firm in RTP, NC almost 9 years ago, and am now a senior programmer working for the 3rd largest bank in the US.
I think my 11 months on the helpdesk has made me a better programmer, because I've seen first-hand how frustrated users get when software barfs up unhelpful error messages, or worse, pulls a total crash and burn for stupid reasons. I actually have the reputation of writing some of the most bulletproof code in my division, and the helpdesk experience is a big reason for it.
5 out of 4 people have trouble with fractions.
I've been working for sometime now, what I found was doing something
_ __
open-source, and I don't mean go join a big project, just do something
by yourself, make a nice website place your resume and bit about yourself
and have some of your stuff on the site ready for download, try and
get your site onto search engines and let the rest take care of
itself. You never know who will visit your site.
In any case from this method, I get about 3-4 job offers a week
without even looking for work, and I get offers from MS at least once
every six months from their many many recuiters.
Make use of the internet, show off your skills, spend a little time on
the weekends or at the end of the day writing something you like, it
will pay off in the future, be sure of that!
Arash Partow
_______________________________________________
Be one who knows what they don't know,
Instead of being one who knows not what they don't know,
Thinking they know everything about all things.
http://www.partow.net
Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
...migh be a good way to get your foot in the door at technology firm. You can;t really just rought out of school and into a network administration role without paying your dues first. Back in the early 1990's the job market for a freshly minted BSCS was very similar to what we have right now today. My first job was an applications & support programmer for a firm that made accounting software. Pretty boring, but it paid the rent and put food on my table and bought me my first brand new sports cars. It also gave me valuable experience in how an IT company actually functions and insight into how to position myself for the ultimate role that I really wanted -- to be a king daddy paw-paw network admin, which I finally am today. It took four and a half years of grunt work as a support programmer first, then software and database architect, then a senior database admin, then finally a junior network admin, and two more job changes as a senior network admin to land my current job as a full blown network manager, which I've been at for the better part of a decade now and probably will stay until I either retire, or win the lottery :-)
If you are self-motivated, selfless and have a labor of love, then eParliament.org has open arms to young and inexperienced programmers (Java, C, PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby) like you. Just apply with your bio and reason to be associated with eParliament to volunteer@NOSPAMeparliament.org. Of course, it would be a great experience to be the pioneering model. All interested are welcome, but not IPs (Intellectual Pirates, I mean). Volunteer recruitment is continuous process. Thanks!
Send your resume to India, I hear they are hiring.
If you choose the SysAd route, you'll likely have to start with a HelpDesk/Desktop support position and work your way up. You'll need to be able to organize and prioritize your work ruthlessly, learn to deal with the stress, health challenges, and lack of satisfaction of a workload that cannot ever be finished, deal professionally with unreasonable customers (not to mention co-workers and supervisors), and maintain unquestionable integrity and sound judgement. If you can do that and stay positive and motivated, I guarantee you that you will advance rapidly in just about any organization.
- Gregg
We have found the enemy and he is us. - Pogo
Quoth the author:
After looking through hundreds if not thousands of job postings, everyone is looking for 3+ years of network admin experience or 5+ years of C++ experience even for an entry level position. How is one expected to gain that kind of experience when no one will hire you without the experience?
They don't intend to hire anyone. Those job postings mainly are (1) vapor postings to see what's out there, and (2) just a prelude to getting an H1B because of a "labor shortage," which is what they plan to do anyway. And if you think the Bush labor department is going to do anything about the rampant H1B fraud, well, I'd like some of whatever it is that you're smoking.
The Uni I go to (Strathclyde, Scotland) recently renamed their CS degree to CIS, renaming the entire CS dept. with it. As far as I know, though, the content of the degree hasn't changed...
Experience is everything these days, take it from me. I dropped out of college to work for the university full-time. Planned on going back (once I was full-time, classes were going to cost practically nothing), but was offered a position that more than doubled my already decent salary.
By the time I left the university for greener pastures, I had six years experience in IT roles. Started doing IT work for a small company one month after I had my driver's license back in high school.
I do wish I had finished some form of degree while I was in school, but I don't worry too much about it these days.
If you're in school now, get at least a part-time job doing something related to your degree. Build experience, make contacts in the industry. You need to know people who know people by the time you graduate, and have some experience under that belt. A degree is just icing on the cake.
I think a wishy-washy objective serves no purpose. Either make it specific if you're only looking for one type of job, or don't have an objective if you don't want to be excluded based on it. The best solution is to tailor your objective to the specific job you're applying for and leave it off the web version.
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
Some of the colours on the webpage are too close. A black and white, printable version would be much more professional. Google for resume writing tips. You will find lots of sites with good advice on what employers want to see and what they absolutely don't.
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
I would have to say that for the most part (granted the poster wont benefit from this) the best thing to do is to get in good with the University's IT department.
I know I was working heavily with the IT department just to help there where I could. I also was part of an initiative for part of the school to get student-run websites and email for the university. Overall this gave me extensive experience working with computers and in general, and let me focus on GREAT technologies.
To do this, one must be willing to make proposals, setup equipment and work ones ass off just to get people interested. The best part is most of the time you'll either get Units or actual pay when and where possible. Not only are you using your new found knowledge, you are able to put it down on a Resume.
Just look now, I work as a Systems Administrator for an Internet Hosting Company, I am only a short time from my date of graduation.
Other options are open, and don't hesitate to get involved with the lower end Tech Support/QA etc departments who are willing to train people just to get the type of person they want.
For programmers- work with your friends/parents friends/etc to get simple stuff handled for them. Make custom apps, get your stuff on sourceforge, Become Part of the OSS community. These all work on resumes and give proven experience. Given the pay isn't good, you have to assume that you'll work a lower end job until you are ready to move on up. But moving up is possible.
Hope these few sage words help people out.
--
Information is not Knowledge.
Every job you apply for should get a unique cover letter written specifically for that position and you should spend at least an hour learning about the company and their products, usually just surfing their website will provide lots of useful info. Sound enthusiastic about every job you apply for. Don't expect to get the perfect job the first time, but try to find jobs where there is some aspect you could sound passionate about in an interview.
Apply for stuff where you don't have all the requirements, but don't apply for stuff where you have less than half the requirements, you're wasting yours and the employers time. If you flood the market with your resume, you risk getting known as desperate. People DO talk about the stupid resumes they get. If you appear desperate, people will think there must be some good reason you haven't been hired by someone else.
I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
It took me about 7 months to find work in a improving economy. I was on the verge of packing up and going home.
Just remember, when you get that job you will encounter people who have worked in the industry for decades. You will realize you don't know sh*t and there are some extremely intelligent people out there.
Its likely you will do grunt work. This will free up time for the senior people to do the "important" stuff. For example, installers are a nice place for juniors because they learn the product and might write some scripts to prove themselves. Meanwhile, your senior makes the "cool" stuff.
When you walk in, your definitely not touching code.
I began at that job doing testing. The company I am at is flexible enough that it allowed me to have time to work on custom applications for automating various aspects of the testing. This formed a natural progression from testing work to full development work.
I can't promise that beginning with testing and progressing to programming would work for everyone or at every company, but in my case it worked perfectly.
Lie, lie, lie.
If caught, lie some more.
At worst, they'll give you a sales job where lying is a requirement.
If your going to write code welcome to engineering. If your in IT and going to administer your a technician. For technician positions, they might be more interested in the product certifications you hold. For engineering, the degree is more important.
When it comes to net related jobs I've noticed a blur with respect to this. So, when you do get a job be aware which direction it might head your career to.
That may not be entirely practical if you're blanketing the HR department of every company, but if you're applying for a specific job opening, spend 15 minutes tailoring your resume to it.
I had the good luck to see my own resume after a couple of professional headhunters edited it and forwarded it to a client. Learned a lot from reading their version of my document.
1. Make it readable. Hand it to a friend or family member, ask them to determine whether you've got some qualification (one which you've listed). If they can't find it in 10 seconds, prune, prune, prune.
2. The list of apps/languages/protocols/hardware at the bottom is VERY handy, and is often more important than anything else listed. This is especially true in highly technical positions such as networking or coding. If your resume is going to an HR department rather than the actual hiring manager, make sure you've got what they're looking for listed.
3. The more experience you have, the less education matters. But even if you're getting started, keep it brief. If you've been in a field for several years, it becomes almost irrelevant.
4. Vagueness is deadly. If you improved productivity with some new process, quantify it in one sentence. If you solved some show-stopper bug, describe it clearly. Assume the reader has an attention span of five seconds, and is a jaded skeptic.
5. Personal stuff (hobbies, affiliations, family) is almost always a minefield. The only exceptions: If it's relevant to the field you're applying for (a concealed carry license won't earn you points - unless it signals to the reader that you can pass a detailed background check). The other exception is if you know the reader, and you find out he's an avid weekend racer - in which case your SCCA timekeeper post is likely to encourage friendly conversation.
Other than that... always understate on the resume, so you can wow 'em with your unexpectedly good qualifications at the interview.
Or at least while your searching for a job, keep an open mind and be sniffing the air for entrepreneurial opportunities. Find a need with a market and fill it. It doesn't have to be big or original. Things are changing all the time, and like waterfalls, these changes are energy sources you can tap into and make money. Why work for someone else? Why compete for the scraps from some other entrepreneur's table? Entrepreneurship isn't for everyone, but I don't think enough people really consider it as an option for themselves.
Your resume is basically one or two sheets of paper you've sent in as part of an application. What happens is this gets torn apart, possibly duplicated and passed around. Objectives are useful, if written appropriately. An objective isn't a one-liner to show how big of a goody goody two shoes you are, it lets the reader know what job you are applying for. In practice your resume gets a scant few seconds of recognition before it gets placed into a "keep" pile or the popular "on file for 3 months" pile. Once it gets to the keep pile it will whorl around several people's desk and they may or may not keep track of it very well or what it pertains to. Hence a specific objective, like "a career as a Software Engineer at Obscene Quantities of Money Investments." But how can you write a general resume and have a specific objective? Answer: you don't.
You should definately have a general resume for uses like your webpage and for unexpected solicitations. There shouldn't be an objective on it like "a job in a challenging environment where I learn new things all the time", or any objective at all. But when you send a resume to someone, it should be TARGETED to them. An objective for starters. And certifications that count help as well. If you're applying for a military software job, maybe a gun cert would be helpful, though usually service counts far more, and
But remember that a resume is supposed to be curt. Extras like your hobbies and maritial status are extraneous and come off as padding and awkward.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Three quick thoughts:
.Net and *Nix development constantly.
I just recently graduated as well but got a job right after college (B.S. Computer Science/Minor Mathematics). I think it didn't really matter so much to have previous job experience but rather who you knew.
I worked for Washington State University student computing services, which was great experience without the pay ^_^ But also, I found the time to start my own projects and try to do my own form of computer business. Just because you don't work for a company doesn't mean you can't get experience on your own.
Professors are a real key in getting a job. Talk them, befriend them. They'll do a lot more work for you if they like you.
Good luck at finding a job, but remember, keep yourself busy with your own projects to stay current. Don't bog yourself down with only one development language. Switch between
It was an obvious lie involving an impossible number of years of experience for the technology in question. Even if he had invented it , he couldn't have had that many years.
You think you can't be caught? Fine, just go on thinking that. I'll never have to compete with you for a job.
Keep thinking that about background checks, too. There are agencies that specialize in getting exactly that kind of information, and it's a lot easier than you think.
Screwing over entry-level workers? Who? When? Where? You obviously have no idea what being screwed over even is.
When, exactly, did all these nameless companies tell people that if they got CS degrees they would get jobs? No one ever told me that. If you said a lot of people assumed that if they got a CS degree they would practically have lifetime employment, you'd be right. But that is very far from companies telling them that. No company every tells anyone anything like that. Sure, the jobs dried up. That isn't the fault of any of the companies who are hiring (or not) CS graduates today. Indeed, the companies that are hiring (or not) today are the ones that survived. If you want to find someone to blame for the jobs that dried up, you have to look first to the people that ran all the companies that *didn't* make it. The ones who burned through huge piles of VC cash on luxurious parties, foosball tables, video games, any sort of corporate extravagance you could name, astonishing salaries even for people with no experience and less skill, the whole dot-bomb nine yards.
I remained gainfully employed through the burst of the dot-com bubble. The only period I was unemployed was from June to September of last years, and that could be termed voluntary, since I relocated and resigned from my old job to do so. Now, of course, I'm working again. Those three positions I wrote about were newly created. The one I still have to fill is an existing one to replace someone who got an offer he couldn't refuse. I hated to see him leave, but it's a great opportunity and I'm glad it went to a deserving person. If he ever wants to come back here, the door is wide open.
Do you know why I remained gainfully employed through the jobs massacre that was the aftermath of the dot-com era despite the fact that I don't even have a CS degree? Contributing reasons are that I'm careful about choosing who I work for, and also probably a bit of plain old luck.
Another is that while I did not do my degree in CS, I do have a brain and skill, and I use both. But the capstone of all that is that I never misrepresented myself in any way to any employer, so what they saw was what they got, and I could fully deliver on everything I claimed.
If you talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, you'll be the first to go if there is belt-tightening.
Also, please keep this in mind: pretty much every employer has a clause in their personnel policy which says that if they ever discover that you lied about anything on your resume or application, references, anything at all, you can be fired. Now, read this very carefully and be sure it sinks in: there is no one in my section who is so good that, if I found that they had lied to me on their resume and been hired on that basis, he or she could expect to have me not want them fired. No one.
Now, I'm not looking for skeletons in their closets, because they all have been checked out, they all are honest people, and they are walking the walk. But just imagine a situation where someone takes a dislike to you and *does* want to find a skeleton in your closet. There had better not be one on your resume, because that resume is still on file and they could go through it with a fine-toothed comb looking for problems. If they find out you never worked at company XYZ, or you never really took course ABC, that's all they need to fire you with cause.
You seem very young, possibly even an unemployed CS graduate yourself, with very little experience in the working world, and not much in th
lol! I have 14+ years "real world" experience, but I'm trapped at my current pay-grade because I don't have a degree! Here's the deal, I'll trade you 7 years C,C++,UNIX experience for half your college credits. BTW, unlike the academic snobs who only hire degreed people (many of which can't tie their shoes let alone write code), I tend to hire those who present themselves as fit for the job at hand. Figure out what type of development you want to do, then form your own company, on the cheap, and start writing some code. For example, if you are interested in games, go to www.garagegames.com and get the torque engine. Spend a couple of months PROVING you can develop a cool demo and then present it to employers. You'll get a game industry job if your demo is good. If you like science, write a slick expression parser library or data visualization tool, give it away as freeware and present that "experience" to the powers that be. Don't try to GET experience from companies, try to GIVE them your experience. Oh, and don't think that your degree automatically qualifies you for anything more than peeon because it doesn't. It will, however, be a valuable asset when you go apply for Director-level positions ten years from now. (i.e. the positions I can't get even though I'm essentually already doing the job.) I suspect you'll be my boss someday so I better start kissing butt now!
i don't have much time so i'll be brief.
the requirements they listare far beyond what they hope to get. don't be afraid to apply. this knowledge has worked for me many times in a 15 year career.
Wow, this poster is having quite the same experience finding a job out of school as I, who graduated last month with degrees in Computer Science and Physics. I have been searching for work in Chicago & south suburbs for over six months, and needless to say I am still unemployed.
My qualifications do stand out from the crowd a bit (Cum Laude, good internship, lots of projects), but the job search is still very rough.
What I am finding however, at least in this area, is that there are a number of new opportunities with consulting companies opening up, and there seems to be more opportunities available now than just a few months ago.
If you want to establish some C++ experience, develop an initial version of something useful (no matter what), license it as Open Source software, and create a website for the project. If it is for Unix/Linux, getting it listed on Freshmeat.net adds some credibility. If you can get other people interested in contributing to the project, that really looks good (but this can be difficult to do).
On your resume, you describe the your work on the project under a heading like 'Development Experience'. It isn't as good as having work you can describe as 'Professional Experience' but it is a lot better than nothing. And for prospective employers that would like to see some samples of your code, you can put some key stuff directly on pages on the web-site. Put the URL in your resume.
I think that this is a legitimate way of getting hobby programming into the experience part of your resume.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" -- HST
Not in Texas -- and I'd be surprised to hear it was different in any other state in the US. I can't remember the legal term, but any employer can terminate you for any or no reason whatsoever. The only thing this potentially effects is whether you'll be eligible for unemployment.
90% of current software, and programmers, suck.
Read books on software patterns. You do know what a pattern is, don't you?
Write some routines based on common patterns to solve common problems (if you haven't found yourself frustrated at library limitations, and know there is a better solution, find another career).
Post them on your website (ObSlashdotRef - you must have a web site since you're here.)
Refer to your code. Chances are your prospective employer won't understand it, but will be impressed by class names like AbstractCollectionDecorator and such.
Profit.
If you're going through recruiters or HR, it'll be tough as they look fof the buzz words and ignore the ability. Download whatever tech they need, quickly write anything using it, and post it too. It may or may not work, I've lost plenty of jobs because I didn't have X years with some technology. That only proves you could write crap for X years and keep your job.
Rick DeBay
Programming Curmudgeon
http://www.debays.org
Sometimes the requirements on these jobs are atypical. It's a wish list. They KNOW they probably are not going to get that particular combination. They put that out there in hopes that they do get that combo. When theyh go through the resumes and job apps and find noone meets the criteria, the look at the next best ones and bring those ones in for a interview. Also, don't be afraid to work in academia for a while. It may pay less, bnut it's real work.
Gorkman
"When, exactly, did all these nameless companies tell people that if they got CS degrees they would get jobs?"
I find it interesting that Bill Gates has been going around trying to talk up getting a CS degree, basically saying that the US faces a serious shortage of CS grads.
After 35 years in the computer field working on most parts of a computer system in one capacity or another, starting before there was agreement that there was enough "stuff" to justify a CS degree (instead of EE or math), I spent the last four years unemployed studying what is basically manufacturing technology becasue it has a better future.
The most directly computer related area that I think has real potential is robotics, but a CS degree is of limited value. What is more important is good solid mechanical, biology, or physics plus some EE. The computer stuff is useful but that's easy to pick up.
Other than the small number of computer scientists that the small number of companies who feel they can afford research department, I'm not sure who needs CS majors.
Its not like it was 20 years ago with a new language being developed and adopted by a large number of users every month. When was the last time you had a real debate about the pros and cons of a language?
Black Box Testing
White Box Testing
Build Engineer
Release Engineer
Tech Support
Customer Support
Installation Engineer
System Administrator
Web Programming
PC Technician
Tech Pubs Writer
Sales Support Engineer
Take short-term contract positions, anything to get some experience and get references
Join an open source project team that is relied upon by the commercial companies, i.e apache
Develop your own open source project that requires you to develop and display your range of skills
Do a research paper on a particular technology or user group and submit to known publishers and web sites
Identify a specific area to develop deep expertise in (depth) or go the other way and develop alot of skills with less depth (breadth)
Take any position you can get even if its not technology related in a technology company
Tenacity, persistence! It may take some time, but keep knocking on the doors of the places that are of interest to you. My first job in hi-tech took 2 years of knocking on the same door, followed by another 2 years once I got in to get into the right slot You'll get there! Good Luck!
Mega Millions is 210 million -> way more than most people will ever earn.
Find a Sugar Daddy / Mama with fairly simular results AND you can piss off an entire family in the process while still scoring with a maid or pool boy.
Porn Star - Ok, while it might not pay as much... there are rewards that most puter geeks will NEVER pass up.
Job - yea - that should be for the other guy.
Once upon a time, a soon to be mommy and daddy loved each other very much (the lust was strong as well as the drinks)
The manager that was hiring told me he didn't look at anything below a 3.5 GPA. I had an IST degree, not a CS (IST != MIS) and I was offered the interview and it was great. Someone who worked under the manager actually tested me on whether or not I knew PERL by having me write a little program. I told them before they even flew me down for the interview that I only worked on it a tiny bit a long time ago. I wrote the program they wanted and later the guy told me that he didn't care if I knew perl, but he did care that I could figure out how to use perl and look things up in a timely fashion. After that I was interviewed by the manager (not the guy who tested me on perl) and he gave me a scenario work with on a marker board. Never before have I had an interview so good.
I was offered the job too, but I turned it down because I was offered another job (among others) closer to the area. Jobs like the one I accepted was through a recruiter who I knew because I was active in school (we had him come in and speak to students).
From what I've seen, you have to know where to look. The Raytheon job was right on their website. If you have the credentials, they'll take a look at you. If you slacked off in school, well, that's your fault.
For now you can take advantage of internships (basically unpaid training). Later on that is not an option. Ever try supporting a family on an internship even if it was offered to you.
Long term, you are probably screwed. If you are lucky you might be able to pay off that college loan before you have to take a McJob like all those other experienced workers you envy. Oh, wait. Sorry, you weren't supposed to be told this yet.
well remember that this advertising by employers for applicants to have "x experience" is as old as the hills. They all want experience, and highly educated and pay you next to nothing. It's that way for every job. Heck even janitor positions have the same ridiculous in their ads. You just have to realize that a) want ads only serve the purpose of letting you know there's a demand for a job out there. and b) you have to sell yourself, not their silly 'requirements' afterall if you think about it Einstein and many brilliant of the past wouldn't be able to get a job today either if they let those ridiculous "requirements" stop them. Especially when you consider the fact that formal education and experience even is of only marginal benefit in the tech field which changes more quickly than text books can be made.
Heck I remember back in 1995 an ad demanding applicants have a "BA in HTML" and 5 years experience in it. -- No joke, thats how ignorant HR whose responsible for these employment ads can be sometimes. Well that and its the good ole boy network still in place. "grumble grumble well I had to go thru hoops and walk to school up hill both ways to qualify for a job so will they...etc"
The wonderful thing about opensource is that it not the quantity or quality of software it develops, but how this software was developed. You can gain years and years of experience of even the most high investment things because the opensource community is driven by expertise and the ability to grow, nothing more. If you're a web designer, looking for experience, donate your work to the opensource community, that extra experience you get might be worth it. If you're a developer, become a committer to some larger projects, gain that experience and ability. If you have skills, always try to make use of them in any possible method, it does count. Believe it or not, most managers will be impressed by such things, experience *is* experience.
These companies lied, so I see no problem with candidates lying.
Why? Because two wrongs make one right? Because somebody else's wrong doings "force" you to do the same?
*You* are responsible for *your* behavior.
You better do what *you* think is right, no matter what anyone else does.
Indeed, the companies that are hiring (or not) today are the ones that survived. If you want to find someone to blame for the jobs that dried up, you have to look first to the people that ran all the companies that *didn't* make it. The ones who burned through huge piles of VC cash on luxurious parties, foosball tables, video games, any sort of corporate extravagance you could name, astonishing salaries even for people with no experience and less skill, the whole dot-bomb nine yards.
Right on, bro. All this lying, pretending, number pumping, boasting and bluffing is what caused the whole bubble in the first place, imho.
It's old wisdom. Lying is evil. Want the world to be evil to you?
School A's 3.0 might be better than School B's 3.5. I can't tell you how many people I know that have a 3.0 from a solid school, only to be rolled over by some other slacker from a second rate trade school.
this is my sig, there are many like it, but this one is mine.
Well said.. I agree with you 100%.
The other thing I would like to add is that CS grads, while highly educated, don't seem to grasp the importance of networking before you graduate. Posted jobs usually only consist of 10-15% of the jobs out there as a in independent developer, I know all too well about this. I've received some sweet contracts because not only did I have the right skillset, I regularly keep in touch with all my contacts.
The person who suggested that they attend LUG is good because that's how you start networking.
Best of luck to all the C.S. grads out there as well as I know it's a competitive market at the moment. Just remember that you need to differentiate yourself and being socially connected with the community in your area is a good way to do it.
Take care,
Darcy
For example, lead developers of significant open source projects should have little difficulty in proving their credentials.
I wouldn't have been impressed, either, if you had spelled "experiance" that way on your resume.
.8 or .9, I would say.
Here's a tip: don't give me a reason to throw you on the "reject" pile. It's very difficult to distinguish one recent grad from another, and I'm basically looking to winnow down the big pile of paper as quickly as I can. Those reasons include poor spelling and bad grammar.
I've learned in my long career as a hiring manager that people who can write well (and spell) are more effective and better programmers than people who cannot. This is a very high correlation --
A correlation is not, of course, a causal relationship. I'm sure there are people who spell and write incredibly badly who could code circles around me. I'm just saying it's rare, and when I'm faced with 300 resumes to go through, and no time to read them, I have no choice but to perform triage with the techniques that have worked for me over time.
Everything that you do for them you can put on your resume. It works. I know from experience... }:-)
Too many people, sometimes even people like yourself with "35 years in the computer field," don't know very basic things, things that can make them less effective than properly-trained CS graduates.
There are a relatively small number of interview questions for candidates that help us to drill down on this:
There are many more of these questions, of course, but one doesn't have to ask them all in order to make a quick and accurate assessment.
I have found over 17 years as a hiring manager that non-CS graduates often have troubling gaps in their knowledge base. Not everyone has the intellectual curiosity to cover, completely on their own, all the topics introduced in a rigorous 4-year degree program. And, on-the-job experience appears to be a poor substitute.
Seriously this is what internships are for. Maybe you can't get 3+ years experience but you certainly can gain lots of experience that you can truth fully list as independent items. Lots of IT companies are happy to take interns unpaid and often even paid, for the summer or part time durring the school year. The career services office or some of your profs SHOULD be able to hook you up. If they can't then your school has big problems. I know my school now requires an internship to get a degreen is CS or IS.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
It seems to me you have experience, maybe even enough for what they're looking for. All they want is confirmation that you've done what you've said you've done. If you've really done it, setup a network of confirmations your hiring company can check out.
I've given my own recommendation before. Once a company I was interviewing with called the company I was currently working at. I just happened to answer the phone. They didn't ask my name and really didn't ask a lot of questions except to confirm what I had put on my application. I didn't lie on the application and honestly didn't and still don't see it as lying to confirm what I wrote. I got the job and worked for that company 15 years.
Don't lie, don't over exaggerate. If you have 3 years experience setting up networks (SOHOs for family and friends) with a Linux server, establish a validation network for the companies you're interviewing with. If you really do know xyz or have done 123 then have someone the hiring company will trust confirm that. That could be a $5 a month 800 number that a significant other answers.
I see it this way (and differenty than most) I start a job with the hiring company from the beginning assuming that I'm a lier who cannot be trusted. They demand I make availible others who will confirm my experience. I don't lie about what I know or can do. My word alone should and is enough. So, if they want confirmations, I make sure they get confirmations.
Not everywhere works like your outfit, sad to say.
Here are the changes I made:
- lose the picture
- lose education before college
- lose objective (I'll specifically tailor it to jobs I'm applying for
- for each "Experience" entry, I added what technologies/skills I used.
- changed the order of sections to Experience, Education, Technical Skills. I don't want to list "Technical Skills" first or Education last, because I think my Education is a strong section, so I added skills to each experience entry instead.
I was told by HR types that if you put a picture or details on your age, appearance, religion, ethnic background, marital status, etc. in your resume, they *must* immediately reject your resume. It's illegal for a company to consider that type of detail when hiring an employee (unless it's somehow job related).
If I had points, I'd be modding this one up.
I started my professional careers in 1997, just as the bubble was getting huge. I got my first, second, third, and fourth jobs without problems. I was hopping from one to another with very little regard to stability or developing relationships. More money? I'm there. Signing bonus? Where's the dotted line. More stock options? I'll quit my current job today.
Then the layoff happened...and I had very few options. I was out of work for over a year, and lemme tell you that is not a fun time. The past two jobs I've had since 2002 (one contract, the other full time) I got due to my contacts putting my resume in front of the hiring manager and saying "bring this guy in for an interview.
Networking can't usually get you a job (unless your the boss's son) but it can get you an interview, and give you a chance to prove yourself in front of someone, rather than just firing off your C.V. into oblivion.
It's "no one," not "noone." Who the hell is noone anyway?
As my HellRaiser joke falls totally flat.... I even had an ephiphany of Daddy Daycare meets HellRaiser and PinHead saying "Kristie. Use the box. Use the box!"
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
One doesn't have to pass an arbitrary test -- including ours -- to be effective.
But, my experience has been that promising applications have failed in production because the coding team did not understand basic things, like choosing correct algorithms when sorting and searching, or recognizing the implications of programming decisions that impact memory management, or structuring the application properly by creating EJB's instead of diving into the database all over the place directly from servlets. To the question raised by the parent post, a CS degree is helpful because it exposes its holder to the notion that certain key algorithms and decisions require very close examination and thought.
are the two most important skills my small company looks for. Most small companies want someone that can get the basics of the job done but are able to research problems as they arise. Also, count your in class projects as real experience. I was in the same position as you a year and a half ago. I interviewed with my company and was up front with my on the job experiences. I had a well written resume and showed good communication. I was chosen over many applicants with far greater experience because they liked my personality and felt confident I could get the job done regardless of my experiences. Never mail in a resume with out first talking to somebody that works there. Research the company. Interview them as well. You might not want to work for them. Find out what exactly the company does. Learn about past accomplishment that have been publicized. They want someone that has taken the time to learn about their company. Good luck
Go back to a school (pick one) and take some networking courses. Usually, if they have (for example) Cisco stuff, they will most likely have a bunch of older stuff laying around in a back room. Ask around, you can usually round up some extra equipment and put together an after hours lab for your personal use. JC's are an ideal place to look for this, because its CHEAP to take their classes.
"The chief enemy of creativity is 'good taste'" -Pablo Picasso
I wouldn't have any problems with those questions.
My response would start by challenging the basis of your questions. For example, "why do you want a sort? sorting is evil and can almost always be avoided." And if you pressed on, I would then respond "Ok, where's your Knuth, I'll go through the TOC and give you my rundown on the changes in assessment each requires based on the changes in systems since the time he wrote the book."
My reaction the other questions are similar. My style of response has been drawn from and honed by my many coworkers, too many of whom are unemployed or employed in jobs they hate. Bascially, when asked to deliver a solution, we ask what the problem is.
If Microsoft were to open a research and design center in New England they would be flooded with great candidates, perhaps few that would really want to work for that company, but that need the job and would hope for the chance to work on something interesting.
Intel does have facilities in New England and I don't believe Intel has any trouble finding a long list of qualified candidates (compilers, chip design) for the rare position they open (currently there are 4 openings in NH and MA posted).
Who knows how many HP is going to be shedding in the next year.
I can't think of any job posting in the past three years, or anyone getting a job, that required any knowledge of code generation, sort algorithms, interrupt service routines, etc., but I know of lots of people without CS degrees that can deal with those issues because they have dealt with them.
On the other hand, I know experienced computer engineers that are studying in areas like genetics so they can figure out how to apply computer technology. Or studying how biologic systems, muscles, nervous systems, etc., work so robotic motion systems can be built. Computer systems are just components like nuts, bolts, springs, bearings, although computers are clearly more flexible.
I'm not arguing that there is no need for people with CS degrees, just that CS degrees are needed for about as many jobs are physics degrees are needed. There is a need for CS people who can explore certain complex problems, just as there is a need for physicists who can explore the problem of making room temperature super conductors. Ideally there would be one million people working on each problem, but the reality is that there are jobs for only a few each year.
In other words, why aren't people going around pitching students to go into physics, astrophysics, archeology, etc. I don't think anyone has made a case for there being a greater need for CS grads that any of the others. The demand for good computer people with good theoretical backgrounds over the past five decades is not sufficient to justify any real demand over the next decade.
Agree 200%!!! I often find it amusing when I hear people suggest taking an unpaid internship while in college to gain your experience. What a WASTE OF TIME!! Like you, I worked all through college in a warehouse loading and unloading trucks. What an experience!! I eventually, after several years, decided to enter their entry-level management program while still attending college. THAT was a good move. My understanding of logistics and industry grew dramatically. All the while, I was EARNING MONEY, which is the ONLY reason you work for someone else anyway. My experiences, when I finally graduated with my CS degree, enabled me to apply my knowledge of industry to the real world, making me a very pragmattic and capable programmer. Knowing someone MAY get you a job, but it WONT help you keep it. GOOD Employers don't care who you know, but WHAT you know. Those are the employers I seek out when I am on the search. And, to answer the original post, those ads are just pure B.S., generally put together by an HR rep., not an IT manager. Send your resume to ANYONE posting a JOB. Once\If your resume makes it to the IT Manager, if they are at all interested, you will hear from them.
Opinion:=TMyOpinion.Create(Me);
Oh, and another thing, don't underestimate the importance of application knowledge - the problem domain, if you like - sometimes this is as important as technical knowledge[1]. A blisteringly fast accounting system that runs in 16K of RAM but gets its debits/credits bass ackwards would be useless.
[1] Bizarrely, some people don't seem to understand the difference. I remember some herbert that argued you couldn't be a programmer without a PhD in maths, because *he* worked on wave modelling and the like.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
s/NETWORK/ASSKISS/g
Go for the companies that just ask you the regular BS interview questions. Then just lie your butt off!
Brilliant strategy. Now you'll be working for a company run by stupid people who hire incompetent people. Enjoy your job!
If you have some free time on your hand because you're not yet employed, then you have an opportunity to volunteer your IT expertise to a local charity.
This is good 3 ways:
"Provided by the management for your protection."
However, you do have one advantage.. perhaps. You are willing to work for less than those other guys. All you have to do is convince a potential employeer that you know as much as the 5+ guys about the skills the employeer really cares about, and you've got a shot.
If I were in your shoes, I'd take stock of my interests and other skills, then see if I could find work in places where that (domain) knowledge is very important. It'll be hard, there are not many places where all your qualifications will fit, and they may not be looking for a SW person (or even know they should). But, it might be easier than competing with the 5+ guys out there. As a way in, perhaps see if you can find some small places where they apply your interests and see if they need any odd computer-related jobs done? It's at least work in your field, possibly with a bunch of opportunities: you are building a rep within a few companies, you are making contacts that you might be able to network into something more permanent, and you are building your resume.
So, working with what you stated ("Desktop-grade routers, switches and wireless as well as any/all desktop PC (and some Mac) hardware"), do you know anyone with a very small company or even individuals that need this sort of stuff set up? How about friends and neighbors that need it set up but don't have the time? Wireless.. lack of wireless security is even hitting the mainstream news these days so practically everybody with wireless is aware they are probably at risk here.. got any neighbors that want that stuff set up but don't know how or have the time to learn? How about long term maintence on their setup? Do they have time to follow all the latest threats and upgrade their hardware/software/firmware/configuration as needed to keep the baddies out? Do they even have the time to figure out what the right * for them is? Think about it.. you can't support a family on this sort of odd job work (not at first anyway) so there's no competition from the 5+ guys down there. It gets you the networking experience you need, contacts and you might even be able to build a small company out of it. The one thing is won't get you though, is experience to chase after the large corporate net/sys admin jobs.. but is that what you need to do earn a living?
Welcome to the net of 1000 lies. Upgrades are scheduled soon that should bring us to the 10,000 lies mark.
Good point. I meant no job in my field. I'm a surveyer's assistant, holding a survey rod, at a concrete manufacturer at the moment. Between then and now, I had a small business producing study guides.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
I have to add a PS to myself on this topic.
:-)
Today, I received a totally unsolicited 15% raise, and I have worked for my employer for less than one year. No, it's not a risk-free transaction from a rich Nigerian, either
This is not the first time I've gone up more than 15% in salary in my first year on the job. In fact, it's the second time in a little over five years that this has happened to me.
To what do I attribute this?
Three things policies that I have:
1) Be up front and honest on your resume and in your interview. Promise nothing that you can't deliver;
2) Deliver all that you've promised and then some;
3)Remember God, from whom you received your talent and the wisdom of doing the first two things on this list. Two practical ways to do this are thankful prayer for the blessings you receive, and give to the charity of your choice that helps the downtrodden of this world. If a windfall comes your way, send some of it the way of those less fortunate than yourself.
Of these three things, the third is the most important. Because of it, I have reaped few negative consequences for the poorer choices in my life, have always gotten by even in the financially tight spots, and have always been able to provide for myself and my family.
That doesn't mean the first two, aren't important, of course; indeed, they flow from the third. But most important among these three things, remember God, from whom your skill, your talent, your education, and your being in the right place at the right time to get that raise, that promotion, that good job at a solvent and growing young company, all come.
One of the best ways to get network, or even "big iron" experience is on-campus student jobs at your school. Here at UAF (University of Alaska Fairbanks) you can get jobs with little or no experience doing network stuff, help desk (from which you can work up), and other like tasks: you just need to demonstrate technical accumen, and they will often train you.
During my freshman year I got a job as a system administrator for the student government (ASUAF). 1. I had the skills (although at that time I knew enough Linux to be dangerous, but still enough), and 2. I was highly recommended to the current student president by one of the student senators. After four years on that job, I had a lot of experience in Perl, Visual Basic, MS Access, database development and administration, web site design and administration, and system administration. All excellent things for a resume.
Sometimes individual departments are looking for tech help due to the lack of attention they get from the campus tech center (e.g. supporting department labs, etc). Those departments are often even more lenient on the level of skills required for hire.
So, look around your campus. Your "4+ years" of experience may require nothing more than a job that helps pay for your college education.
Joshua J. Kugler
Social and gregarious is not how I'd describe most (not all) linux people. From my own expierience, a lot tend to be loners, non-social, even painfully shy. As I said, there are exceptions, but there's a reason Linux users are called "geeks". I couldn't describe my lug as "raucous". Maybe it's a cultural thing between the UK and the US, but I'd LIKE to go to a raucous lug. Maybe I just need to visit the UK...
Life is hard, and the world is cruel