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Caller ID Falsification Service
Dan writes "
A US website will offer Caller ID falsification service...Slated for launch this week, Star38.com would offer subscribers a simple Web interface to a Caller ID spoofing system that lets them appear to be calling from any number they choose. [...]
SecurityFocus took the site for a test drive, and found it worked as advertised. The user fills out a simple Web form with his phone number, the number he wants to call, and the number he wants to appear to be calling from. Within two seconds, the system rings back, and patches the user through to the destination. The recipient sees only the spoofed number displayed on Caller ID. Any number works, from nonsense phone numbers like "123 4567" to the number for the White House switchboard."
"Mr. President, you have a call from the Pope."
Right is wrong when left is right.
"The recipient sees only the spoofed number displayed on Caller ID. Any number works, from nonsense phone numbers like "123 4567" to the number for the White House switchboard."
I think that the people who are going to profit from this the most will be guys like Howard Stern (if he's still on the air). He'll ring up anyone he wants and pretend to be working for some fake government agency while the nimrods on the line will be in fear if they have caller id. Oh the laughs... until the FCC has their way with Stern and shut him down.
How many kids are going to get into serious trouble with this service?
Let's not even start talking about all the wonderful social engineering that can now be performed with this great service. "This is Bill Gates. I forgot my password. Give it to me."
So all ye lawyers, would the owners of Star38.com be in the doghouse for this service when the masses start using it as a launchpad for social engineering? I'm thinking, hell yes (but IANAL).
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Star38.com claims it will screen subscribers, and initially make the service available only to licensed private investigators and collection agencies. Jepson and his partners believe that collection agencies in particular will find the service invaluable for getting recalcitrant debtors to answer the phone.
Debt collection agencies already mask their online and phone identities pretty well. Using common telephone setups (before the big Asterik "save the children" bullshit) they just appeared as whatever they wanted. In fact their web-presence is generally unknown and they even mask their hostnames to the rest of the world with benign addresses like mta-mailserver.alliedfinancial.com (this is a recreation of an actual NAT host used by a collection agency).
Private Investigators should opt for paying the phone company to offer them a similar service (or better yet don't call from your business phone).
If they are really allowing ANY number it isn't going to make it very far out of the "hype-stages". Think of what this could do to our children and what could happen in the hands of the terrorists!
CallerID: "J. KERRY CAMP. OFF. HQ"
Caller: "Hi, I'm calling you to vote for John Kerry via absentee ballot."
John_Overseas: "Ok. Count me in. Down with Bush!"
Caller: "Done. Thanks for helping Bu...I mean...Kerry win!"
Caller: "Another close one Dubya."
Have you ever wanted to post a comment as someone else, for humor or other more mischievous purposes? Now you can thanks to Slashdot's new comment author falsification service! You can be CmdrTaco, Hemos, CowboyNeal, or one of literally hundreds of thousands of other people, some of them actually famous!
Author falsification starts at a mere 10,000 subscription points!
Chalk one up for the stalkers!
In Soviet Russia, Caller ID Spoofs YOU! (FP)
The methods behind this are still hidden. They claim that it's not VoIP as most people currently do...
Any speculation what it could be?
...watch legislation arrive to clamp down on who can own PBX equipment, and what it can be used for.
Bye bye, Asterisk.
tasks(723) drafts(105) languages(484) examples(29106)
I knew a friend who worked in a courthouse, and she'd call me from the phone in there.
The caller id was (999) 999-9999. Always thought that was kinda cool.
Right off the bat doesn't this violate wiretapping laws? I thought there was a clause that prohibits mucking around with phone tech like this.
Isn't there a law (at least in the US and Canada) that says telemarketers must make the call with real callerid information supplied?
damn timer not much there whois
Anyone have Darl's phone number?
... make the service available only to licensed private investigators ...
Moreover, we all know that you cannot spoof a license for a private investigator. Those licenses are bullet proof and 100% legitimate. In fact, I have yet to receive a license from a Cracker Jack box or under the lid of a Cola bottle.
In a later announcement, invertigatorspoof.com released a license to spoof you number for 19.95.
Spoof on top of Spoof make Spooves?
Jepson claims the service will charge a twenty-five cent connection fee for each call, and seven to fourteen cents per minute.
Hopefully this will deter the telemarketers. That's my biggest fear.
Its a copy and paste from theregister.co.uk.
i d_ falsify/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/30/caller_
Mwhahahahahah!!!!!
Let's order a few thousand pizza's to his house!
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
False information given is "truth in advertising".
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
This sounds to me like a simple callback system. It has been used by people who want to reduce the price they pay for international calls -- for several years.
v ice
(You call the callback answering maching, it waits until you dial the number you want; then you hang up; the machine calls the number for you, and calls you. You're not calling "from" your country, and won't have to pay the rates charged there.)
http://www.google.com/search?q=callback+phone+ser
This should be illegal. I'm writing my congresspersons today.
Now the neighbor's kid can activate my credit cards he stole from my mailbox without breaking into my place to use my phone line.
Phone customers with 800 and other toll free numbers get the caller's number delivered via ANI (automatic number identification), which is not CallerID. I suspect that this service will not change the ANI, as ANI is much harder to block than CallerID.
An e-mail falsification service ?
Oh, wait...
getSexySig();
As Kevin Mitnick pointed out in his book The Art of Deception, anyone with a PBX system can program their outgoing Caller-ID information to show anything they want.
As far as star38.com goes, I wonder what purpose they hope to serve by doing this. After all, it's a free service, and as we all know, nothing in this world is free. Could it be that star38.com will sit in the middle and record these conversations, either to sell prank calls a la The Jerky Boys? Or, maybe they'll gleam little bits of information about people and sell that marketing information to companies?
Overrated / Underrated : Moderation
I don't answer the phone from any number I don't recognize as it is. Now, services like this throw out the trustworthiness and convenience of Caller ID.
Maybe I'll just keep the phone for 911, maybe keep the answering machine at best.
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
While technically neat, I think most would agree that this is an abuse, and that it is wrong.
I don't think the FCC will let this stand long. Especially if telemarketers, or similar crud start using it in the obvious ways.
Could the DMCA be applicable here? I can't recall all of its subtle clauses right now. But I wouldn't be suprised if such a technology violated it (everything else seems to). Can you imagine? The DMCA being used for good !?
Slashdot Syndrome: the sudden, extreme urge to correct someone in order to validate one's self.
http://web.archive.org/web/*/star38.com
I haven't really toyed with this for a long while, but what about Beating it yourself?
All my calls go to the answering machine...
Would Cmdr Taco like his pizza's with or without anchovies?
There is a very high probability that a disgruntled person or persons affected by the website's services will file a DMCA lawsuit against the website in an attempt to shut it down forever and ever.
I need a service like this, to make my CallerID more accurate. I have a VoIP landline and a mobile phone, with two different numbers. The landline rings my mobile simultaneously, at no charge, so I distribute only that phone#, and answer whichever phone is nearest - I'd prefer the mobile# remain undisclosed, to funnel all calls through the landline#. But when I initiate calls from my mobile, the recipient gets only the mobile#, which they might call back directly, insert into their contacts list, etc. But incoming calls on that mobile# won't ring my landline (although a less robust service for the mobile has a charge, while the landline multiringing doesn't). So I'd like to spoof the landline# when making mobile calls.
One way to do it would be to call a service at my VoIP landline, authenticate my mobile# CallerID, and replace the call to the actual recipient, from the landline with the landline# sent in CallerID. A better way would be to learn from email, and include both a "From:" and a "Reply-To:" field in the sent CallerID metadata. This service is a step in the right direction.
--
make install -not war
I saw this displayed at NYLF Tech by Kevin Mitnick. Its still sweet.
_____^_-________ Fus Was Here
Algorithm
/*do nothing
if phone.rings() {
if me.personINow(callerid.name) {
me.answerPhone()
}
else {
let answering machine pick it up */
}
}
problem solved
logic, it is a wonderful thing
Nuttles
Saved by Grace
Unless they figure out who all my friends and family members are. I don't answer the phone if I don't recognize the number. My current phone number is one digit off from the local KFC, so I get a half-dozen calls every day that I don't answer.
The more advanced and complex our communication systems get the more confusing and time-consuming and frustrating it becomes to communicate. It's odd how many people I know that will send emails to people, or chat online, but barely talk to people in person -- or at least with any real depth. The more "advanced" our communication, the more time we spend dealing with all the problems of communication that crop up (spam, caller id spoofing, junk mail, etc.)
I know this whole group of people who are barely seen by other people and do nothing but communicate with random people from all over the world on a website.
Oh wait... damn ... nevermind
Why would a website want to offer this kind of service and put themselves in legal jeopardy?
And could traditional phone companies block them the way spam is blocked, to say anything originating from their service is blocked? I hope the telemarketers don't start using this kind of system. I am on the do not call list, and suddenly the number from which telemarketers call has switched from USA numbers to numbers located in Canada.
First off, this stuff isn't hard. Anyone with a PBX and some voice circuits (such as ISDN PRI's) can do this. However, what they can't spoof is ANI since that's configured on the telco side.
More distressing is if they allow calls to somewhere like 911. Most 911 centers are configured to receive ANI (which again, is different than caller ID as well as the billed telephone number), so they would definitely receive the ANI of where these voice circuits terminate. However, they may receive caller ID and may even base location on it. In that case I would think the public utilities commissions would immediately take interest in this.
Of course, these folks probably aren't that dumb, so they probably don't allow 911 calls. One thing I didn't consider is that these guys might have connections (such as, they might be their own CLEC) and can really spoof the ANI too.. not sure what happens there.. all bets are off and the chance they'll get in trouble is pretty high.
----- obSig
Reminds me of the day when I receaved a bill for $100 for a mag subscription to a sports mag I never wanted.
(Not a sports fan)
They identified themselfs and I contacted a laywer who was apparently handling a class action lawsute against thies people (not the dept colection agentcy but the people they were colecting for) for fraud.
Dept colection agentcys should not be alowed to hide who they are (or who they work for) for this reason.
I don't actually exist.
My state has laws saying if you tell a creditor to stop calling and only communicate with mail, they have to honor that. Yet I know people with bad credit, and the phone rings with "Unidentified" in the caller ID. He is pretty sure it is the collection agencies because it happens all day long, at least once every other hour. About every 10th one of these unidentified calls is a recorded message saying "call 1-913-xxx-xxxx" or some number like that.
How can collection agencies circumvent the law? How can someone prove it is them?
Why not learn how to do it yourself? http://www.phrack.org/show.php?p=47&a=19
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
I would simply go back to an answering machine that screens my calls and pick up the line when I recognize the voice, as I did before CallerID.
Cheers,
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
this service is only good if you want to trick somebody; which has its purposes too.
if you want anonymity, dial *67 before your call. most phone companies in the US offer this as a way of blocking caller id.
I presume that caller ID is sent through a signal on the line which is inaudible to humans but which is picked up by the phone or the central switchboard, and that this service works by transmitting their own fake signal to overwhelm the phone company's attempt to do so. Couldn't this scheme (and various other schemes that involve abusing the phone network like the various colored boxes) be defeated simply by placing a filter on the incoming audio signal that will only pass the range of human hearing? Then the control signals could be transmitted by a device attached further along the wire before being sent on to the phone company.
else clause does nothing and is therefore not needed. Mod parent down for providing useless code.
Unless the caller ID shows someone I know, I just dont pick up. If it's a useful call and they leave a message, I will call them right back. Otherwise my answering machine kicks in.
My daughter and her friends figured out a way to do this years ago. Here's the scenario:
Amy is supposed to be having a sleepover at Beth's house, but instead is spending the night with her boyfriend Carl.
Dad calls Beth's house to speak to Amy. Beth says, "Oh, Amy's in the bathroom. I'll have her call you back when she gets out." A minute later, Dad's phone rings, Beth's number displays on the Caller ID, and Amy's voice is on the line. Dad is satisfied that Amy is at Beth's house. Wrong!
What happened is that after speaking to Dad, Beth calls Amy at Carl's house, initiates 3-Way Calling back to Dad's number, then hangs up as soon as Das picks up the phone. Amy (at Carl's house) is on the line, but it's Beth's number on the Caller-ID because that's where the call originated from.
I have gray hair.
So, sometimes, we changed the number enroute so that it would launch a new ticket window instead of a ticket with 20,000 IDs all indexed to the same phone number. We just marked it with a random number that let the techs know this was not their real home phone, and thus, had to ask for a callback number if needed.
We also had hackers that did this as well, like one guy in Vancouver who hacked the ANI so he could make illegal and harrassing long distance calls in the US using a US 800 number that would, in theory, make the call unbillable.
Then there's the mysterious 604 number that people get from time to time...
I have always hated caller ID every since it has existed, because people always assume that the name of the person on the caller-id is the person that is calling them, and this is not true. All caller-id tells you is what phone is being used to call you, it tells you no information about the person that is using that phone (except maybe where they are physically located).
Now, hopefully people will stop answering there phone "Hello Bob" when they see that the phone number that is Bob is paying for is being used to call them.
Caller-ID should be more accurately titled, "source phone number id", it's the difference from using an IP address to identify a user and using pidentd to identify a user.
I have to stop typing now, I'm getting so angry just thinking about how evil caller-id is, not because of the technology used, but because of the assumptions that users of the technology make.
The main ones that will use this with joy are the telemarketwits who want to bypass the Do Not Call list. The federal lawsuit will probably be filed in a week.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
I don't like the thought of goofballs mucking around with the service either but I can see legitimate uses for it.
Take a look at some of these nifty caller-id features such as "Prevent Your Number from Displaying on Caller ID" or "Caller ID with Anonymous Call Block"
Suppose your phone number is unlisted and typically shows up as "Anonymous" or "Unavailable" to caller ID. Now suppose the recipient of your call has Caller ID with Anonymous blocking. You can't get through or, with some services, you have to leave your name at the tone and hope they pick-up and decide to take your call.
It would serve as a way to make your own number show up when you want it to but otherwise remain anonymous and not defeat the purpose of having an unlisted telephone number.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
Standards for honesty for any method of a collection company presenting itself are very strict. Wording of exactly what can be said is drilled into collectors. You can't claim to be an old college buddy, a cop, lawyer, or anything else to try to get someone on the phone. If you can't tell someone a lie like that, I don't see how telling a lie by caller ID would be any more allowed.
They're still going to talk to my IVR answering program unless they spoof a very small list of numbers. But just in case, I think I'll block the White House number.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Here is another use of this service as long as it is Free. If you just enter the number you wish to call, and then the system calls you back, couldn't you just use this for Free Long Distance???
Now I when I make creepy calls to people, it will be easy to make it look like The call is coming from INSIDE THE HOUSE!
How did you figure out you were being spoofed?
"Sir, we have a 1337 dude" on line one." So what are the phones companies going to do after this goes into wide usages? Call the service Caller-Maybe? It rhymes.
Star38.com claims it will screen subscribers, and initially make the service available only to licensed private investigators and collection agencies.
I'll pay someone $10 who has an account so I can call the service and sign up as Ralph's Collection Agency. (or do they know better than to rely on Caller-ID for indentifying new accounts?)
People being able to spoof email addresses? Or fake the return address on an envelope? Or print fake IDs! Oh no, club owners beware, that young looking 46 year old might really be 13! And that official looking envelope may not really be from that swiss bank in Europe. And yes, hotgirl69@yourfavoriteISP.com might really be your wife!
Hell(666) 666-6666 Can only be a matter of time before it shows up in a "B rated" horror flick.
It's worth noting that caller ID and ANI are two separate technologies. Most toll free and "important" business / government agency lines use ANI, not caller ID. I seriously doubt that this service has any effect on ANI.
Every time a killer taughted his victim over the phone you'd know right away who John Q. Killer was but, leave it to the MPAA and their crafty ways to secretly fund this anti-Caller ID technology....
Its legal to hide your number, but its it legal to 'forge' your number..
I guess the FCC would need to be called..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
When PBX equipment is outlawed, only outlaws will have PBX equipment.
--AC
Its not a free service, its 25 cents to initiate the call and 7-14 cents per minute.
I think there's another risk here though, which is less stated. This service is to go live Sept 1st, from the web site. Unless it's on a minimal page after getting /.ed, I couldn't find any link to terms and conditions. What exactly are you submitting to when you use this? Is your information safe? Keep in mind, the call is routed through their system. Right now, until I see T and C which specifically states that my information is priviledged and cannot be listened in on or used against me, I can only assume it will be. They must have some concept of how they intend to make money.
Also, who's liable for the damages WHEN (not if) someone uses it to commit a crime? This company, I can forsee turning anyone over at the drop of a hat. They're going to have a hard time pleading the internet provider's argument that they are merely the conduit (and therefore not liable for the actions of individuals on their networks), since there is little or no use for the system for legal ethical purposes.
I'm so happy I don't have caller ID!
This "service" won't last long. This was brought up on a Telehpreak.org conference (shameless plug). There's better ways to do this _with_ VoIP. It's much easier to go down to my local store (with cash), by a pre-paid Visa card with any name I want. Then, use that card to signup with a VoIP server (Voicepulse, Vonage, etc). Then, using the fun of Asterisk, set my caller ID to anything I want. No ANI [it's VoIP], spoofed caller ID, and anonymous.
We actually thought about setting up a similar type of service (more of a concept service, really) to allow CID spoofing. After much discussion, between ourselves and the EFF, we decided that it wasn't a very smart thing to do.
http://www.telephreak.org
The telemarketing scumbags have been masking their identities for quite some time without this 'service' so I am just finishing yawning over the article, which has a few inaccuracies that I correct below.
The ICLID (Individual Caller ID) field is separate from the ANI field in the SS7 message. Depending on your tariffs you might or might not be able to stuff the ANI field; you almost always can stuff the ICLID field with whatever nummer you want.
What the other end displays is not always consistent across the various operating companies and carriers, so don't go strutting around like you've pulled the wool over everyone's eyes just yet.
Further, the name lookup that you see on your display is performed by the terminating switch (serving you), so you can't spoof that. Of course, if you spoof John Q. Smith's nummer it will usually show his name, unless he is not a subscriber of your local tephone cumpny; in that case you get nuttin and like it. Even that is subject to variations due to interexchange agreements.
All in all, this service does not meet the technical neatness test, can't overcome the stupidity and ineptness of the various carriers, and is just a jolly good way for somebody to make some extra bucks. It's probably easier just to go down to 7-11 and use their coin box and get it over with.
Have fun!
slashdot: A failed experiment.
That pretty much makes Caller ID utterly worthless, doesn't it?
-- The reason it's called the right wing? Irony.
Is anyone else really, really tempted to call someone and have this service send the number you're calling? Especially if you've got a friend with the Voice Announce caller-id feature? "Five Five Five One Six Zero Zero" "Hmm, that number seems familar" "Get out of the house, he's in there with you!"
Envy my 5 digit Slashdot User ID!
> Let's not even start talking about all the wonderful social engineering that can now be performed with this great service. "This is Bill Gates. I forgot my password. Give it to me."
It's probably a front for an FBI sting operation, an invitation for stupid criminals to use them as a middle-man in their crimes.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
My first thought on reading this article was the long distance fee. How long before a "free" version of this come in, where the web site, on taking my source and destination number, connects us.
Using a $2.50/minute long distance service.
Routed through South America.
This spoofing system is a telemarketer's dream for two reasons.
1.) Nearly all telemarketers have their Caller ID blocked because they don't want to actual name to appear in people's caller ID display and thus keep people from picking up the phone.
2.) I pay about $4 a month to have SBC (my local phone company) block all 'Anonymous' calls incoming to my phone. The caller has to leave a message or unblock their number to for call to be successfully connected. This filtering has reduced the number of unsolicited telemarketer calls by over an order of magnitude.
Now, telemarketers can falsely spoof any name and number they wish. They already know my full name and phone number and easily could construct a database of people that are related to me. For example, I could now see my Mom's name and phone number every time a telemarketer calls me. Now both my caller ID and Anonymous caller ID blocking is circumvented. Now I am totally unable to avoid the torrent of calls from telemarketers that has plagued my phone number for years.
This is has to be made illegal.
Chew: You Nexus, huh? I design your eyes.
Roy: Chew, if only you could see what I've seen with your eyes.
isnt there a law against telemarketers and collection agencies calling mobile phones?
They should just change their names...
It just so happens that I share a first name, last name, and middle initial with a convicted felon. Debt collectors and private investigators can't tell from a phone listing that I'm not the same person.
At one point, my house would get several calls a week from debt collectors and private investigators. They would impersonate police officers, threaten legal action, etc...
It became really annoying. Finally, itcame down to this:
- I have a habit of answering the phone in a jovial manner, i.e., with phrases like, "Mort's morgue, you stab 'em, we slab 'em...." Generally speaking, I only get calls from close family, so everyone's in on the joke.
- But one time, I decided to answer "Dominoes Pizza, how may I help you..."
- And the reply was not whom I expected, but the voice of our least-favorite sheriff impersonator. Yes, it was the collection agency. But to my surprise, he played along:
- "Dominoes pizza, eh... I'd like a large pepperoni pizza.."
- Well, I continued to take his order, address, phone number and all. I thanked him and then hung up.
- Turns out, he was across the state in a major city. Still not a problem, though. I looked up the phone number for the local Dominoes, and relayed his order.
- Forty five minutes later, I got a call, "Very funny, wise guy..."
- To which I replied, "Dominoes pizza, may I take your order?"
That was the last time he called.The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
You have to be connected through the service. I think it's a VOIP gateway. VOIP providers can control what the ANI says (mainly because they have to provide fill it in depending on who initiated the call). This just lets you parametrically set that. Nifty.
This was also possible by abusing inproperly-set-up directory assistance. If you called the right service center from the right area code (or from a cell phone), they would need ask you where you were calling from to fill in the ANI when they made the connection. Hee hee!
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I always thought he lived deep underground in a lair/nuclear bunker where cell phone reception is poor.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Not sure if this is illegal, but it should be. I can see someone wanting there number to not show on caller ID. But to have a fake number show, that's just wrong.
Slashdot - Where the slash is most definitely to the left.
From what I understand. This has been feasible for anyone with the resources, intent, and skills (gov agencies, mafia, etc...). Its a fuss now when it became available for other people (the general public).
This raises the security/verificaton of regular phones. This appears to be similar to the "email protocol" problems we are facing now which lead to the spam epidemic.
So how many times can you fit "boobs" in the space of a caller ID name display?
stuff |
Between that problem with POTS service at home and DSL at work that constantly needs resetting, I think it's fairly safe to say that Sprint sux. :-P
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
I can finally start marketing my "Trace-Buster-BUSTER!"
("The Big Hit?" No? OK, sorry.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
try wildgate.com -
sign up for an account and you have the choice in your prefs on what outgoing ID you want...
cost $5.00 or so.
been around for years now.
I placed a service request with them over two months ago, because I can't access their NNTP servers. I get a message telling me that only comcast customers can access their newsgroups services. Over two months to fix a simple password or permissions issue. Wow.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
I've heard the phone companies won't necessarily let you do this (replacing the number you send with your billing number) unless you're ordering a big system.
:-)
A dinky ISDN line or something won't probably cut it in a major metropolitan area.
Which is why VOIP or services like this is a good work-around.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
But that's for the icing-on-top caller ID for your rinky-dink analog phone. That's easily spoofed.
Not the switch-level ANI that's used to identify you to some companies' big PBX system even if your caller ID is blocked.
Also, cellphones use (the equivalent) of ANI, the "other" caller ID is non-existant in that space.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Well, people pass laws on who can own crypto, they try to pass laws saying legitimate p2p is a crime, they try to say the recording things like VCRs are illegally infringing items, decss can only be used for copyright infringement, etc.
You dismissed the grandparent as saying something absurd that can never happen and wave it away.
The reason the grandparent post got moderated to insightful because it is insightful; there is bound to be someone who legitimately tries to outlaw this.
Hell, those Homeland security folx seem to like to prevent people from being able to masquerade as anyone they want. All it would take is for a "only terrorists would mask their caller id" or "think of the poor children who could be spoofed by this" and this is exactly what would be happening.
Unfortunately, not-thought-out reactions to new technology are increasingly becoming more knee-jerk and way less reasoned. Pretending it could never happen isn't going to stop it.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
It had to be said
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Who's to say that I couldn't go to their site at 4:00 some fine morning, Tell them that I'm calling from one of my worst enemies, have them connect to another enemy, and give them a third enemy as the 'calling from' number?
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Are you telling me Cuba has an INTERNATIONAL COUNTRY CODE???
A place that backward and Communist couldn't possibly afford the paper upon which to print the request to the ITU for the allocation!
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
This bugtraq report shows that T-mobile customers are vulnerable to caller id spoof access to voicemail in the default configuration. I wonder if this provides sufficient spoofage.
So if you call a toll-free number for whatever reason, they can capture your number and sell it to telemarketers - or collection agents.
Request your free CD of my piano music.
It seems to me that if this service is used and the spoofed number selected belongs to someone else then we have a case of identity theft which these days carries some pretty stiff legal penalties. Shouldn't this service be viewed as a tool designed to enable identity theft and as such be banned?
Used a webservice from a telecomprovider with which you could do this. Calling any number and also displaying any number on your own and the remote display. I used it for a useful service, however as a side effect we could listen into somebodies voicemail. In the product we prevented this by hardcoding a special number to display.
I condsider it real dangerous. And think it should be forbidden.
I just tried to get the OpenSource version, where is it, again?
867-5309
I'm not sure whether there are more telemarketers or more spammers in the world.
... or ... not be bothered with it.
You've learned how to avoid spam
Here's a useful hint to avoid telemarketer and got caller id.
unless you know the number of the caller, just don't answer and let them leave a message, most telemarketer won't leave one or their machine will hang up at the tone. if its a legitimate call, the person will (hopefully) leave a message.
Its still very disapointing to see just how far some are ready to go just to make a buck, deceiving people outta be the worst technique of 'em all.
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
The Register screwed this one up.
"Falsification" means to prove something is false.
A true Caller ID "falsification service" would provide some way of proving that the person on the Caller ID was not in fact the caller. Hence, such a service would be true "Caller ID" instead of "Calling Number ID" which is what we really have now.
What this new "Star 38" service purports to offer is a forgery service.
IANAL, but I would not want to go to prison for wire fraud. YMMV.
It looks like this forgery service could do to the telephone what spam did to e-mail.
Who the hell does call KFC? I find it weird. Sometimes, before I had an obnoxious answering message, it would be along the lines of "I can't come in today". It was bizarre since, on my machine, I would clearly state my name and that I was out and would you please leave a message. Then, I'd get messages like "Uhh...I can't make it in today".
So, I went with a stronger message. My last one (before my Mom asked me to take it off) was:
Hello, and welcome to KFC's fat and disgusting line. If you're fat, press one. If you're disgusting, press 2. If you're fat and disgusting, press 3. If you'd like to know how our fried chicken can make you more fat and more disgusting, please press 4. If you realize this is not KFC and want to leave me a message, you can do that after the beep.
You should hear some of the messages that got left. Mostly..."what the hell...?"
My current one just promotes salad.
...they'd go one step further. They'd send the new password directly to his voice mailbox...
Actually there are lots of voicemail systems out there in "idiot mode" that ID the user from their caller ID and wil dump them straight into their voicemail without any authentication.
Feeding that number into this service and spoofing the callers number would theoretically allow anyone access to someone's voicemail should they know the numbers involved.
Alot of third-party long distance services use caller-id to identify who to bill calls to.
For example, I can dial an 800 number at my friends house, then get lower rates for long distance.
This has the potential to be abused since I could potentially call the same 800 number from my house, but present the caller-id of my friends house and have the charges billed to him.
From the article: ...under two federal civil laws: the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, which prohibits false or misleading representations...
The thing is, as I understand it, FDCPA rules only apply to third party collectors. If you owe your CC company money, they are not limited by FDCPA. If the CC company sells your debt to another collection agency, THEN FDCPA kicks in.
Most first party collection departments seem to follow FDCPA, but I think they do so voluntarily, and to keep you as a customer.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Excellent, I have a dead beat that owes me money and won't answer the phone when my number or an unknown number appears on caller ID.
Good God, is this Hannibal Lecter?
> A billing error can be resolved directly with the company.
Depends on the company. Worldcon for example is totally clueless.
I had dialup with UUnet back around 1999-2000. When DSL hit the area I tried to drop the dialup. Seems there isn't a human there that can actually cancel your service. Finally got someone who said I had to dialup using the account and send an email. Since I didn't have the modem powered up anymore and deemed that a stupid way to do business I told em "whatever, but I ain't sending any more money." Figured it was like AOL, where the only way to cancel a subscription is to tell the credit card co to stop payments.
To this day they still think I am subscribed and call me every once in a while asking when I'm going to send the ever increasing back payment/penalties I "owe" them. But it doesn't seem to hurt my credit rating so I guess the agencies know all about worldcon and ignore bad reports from the asshats.
Democrat delenda est
fyi: easiest pheak tool since the captn' crunch whistle!!!
(ANI is much more secure, as that's how the phone companies generate billing data and how those with toll-free numbers know who is calling them. This is also how E-911 services work.)
Anyone with a PBX and a trunk line can spoof CLID all day long and always has been able to; the idea being say, if you're a large company all your outgoing phone calls show as if they're coming from your main switchboard number rather than the individual extension the call is being placed from.
This has been covered ad nauseum in comp.risks...
this is not really about security: if you use a service to cover up your tracks, your tracks are only as safe as that company is (think logs, billing, police browsing their logs/customer db...). users of legitimate services can always be traced back, so whats that security debate? it's a toy...
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
Feel free to tell Darl to take a chill pill. A number of people have supposedly sent him death threats (just as other wierdos have sent threats to PJ of Groklaw). While I seriously doubt any of those people were serious, Darl is pretty stressed out about them. He has even started carrying a gun and should be considered armed and dangerous. I don't doubt that he'd shoot someone who tried to approach him if he even so much as suspected they might attack him.
c k/index. html
Anyhow, so long as you're not stupid enough to get yourself killed by him, here's all the contact info you could want:
The SCO Group
355 South 520 West
Suite 100
Lindon, Utah 84042 USA
(801) 765-4999 phone
(801) 765-1313 fax
Contact SCO online
http://www.thescogroup.com/company/feedba
Darl C McBride
1799 Vintage Oak Ln
Salt Lake City, UT 84121-6539
Darl's home phone #: (801) 424-2006
Darl's office phone #: (801) 932-5820
Email Darl: darl@sco.com
hello who is this?
- I'm you from the future! you know you should really buy that car you were just looking at, you won't regret it.
except it was usually pizza hut answering the phone: "hello, pizza hut" only to be greeted by "uh, hello, this is papa johns"
it was a real treat to listen to the two angry pizza guys, both of whom were insisting that THEIR phone was the one that rang, work out who was the bigger jerk
3 way calling and the "mute" button is the best thing that happened to beeing a geeky teenager.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
My hyperbole and sarcasm are wasted upon you.
Christ, this place sucks more everyday.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I've built systems that do this for several clients. I have been building telephony systems for a dozen years. There are 3 ways I know of to do this:
1: PRI (Primary Rate ISDN) T1; You can stuff the ANI with whatever you want, and your carrier may or may not deliver it depending on your provisioning. This includes the 2 so-called "information digits" which tell what kind of phone you're calling from (prison, hospital, home, business, mobile, payphone, etc);
2: Robbed-bit T1 There is a way doing it with robbed-bit T1s as well but it's a little harder and more complicated;
3: VoIP, where you can pretty much control everything you send out.
The bottom line: There are lots of people already doing this. Star38 is the first one to publicly offer it as a service, rather than clandestinely buy a system from someone like me.
All the ones I've built, as far as I know, are for more "legitimate" purposes - not intended to hide who you are, but intended to give you proper Caller ID even when the call doesn't originate from place it says. For example:
- When using a calling card, presenting the called party with the caller ID of the originating phone you're calling from.
- A system in Las Vegas calls you on behalf of your doctor in Atlanta with an automated call to remind you of your appointment tomorrow. The Doctor's office caller ID is presented.
- A system in Atlanta is used to voice-SPAM you, but rather than have an out-of-area caller ID, they give the caller ID of the company on whose behalf they are calling.
Note to the wise: I discovered when I built the first one years ago that you shouldn't ever trust caller ID! Now the cat's even more out of the bag!
used to be in the justice industry where i was a slave to my telecom interface. now i leave my phone line plugged into the computer except when *i* want to *call out*. i don't pay 30-40 bucks a month to verizon so that *anybody* can disturb me by ringing a bell in my crib. my friends all know this and email me instead.
This happened to me at my new place of work. I wasn't in the company phone directory yet (though I wasn't aware that this was the case), and I thought I would check my voicemail for fun. So I enter the first four letters of my name (thinking that's how I checked it), and I was dropped into our CEO's voicemail box. I'm not sure why or how, but it didn't require any password or anything beyond me trying to enter my name. I didn't learn anything neat, since the messages were in japanese, but I found it somewhat humorous.
Anyway, yeah, idiot mode indeed; it's scary how some things are set up
If you have the right kind of phone on the right network, you can do things like change the phone's phone number (internally, in the phone), and when you dial to numbers outside the cell network they see the new number as the ANI info. This is because right now many GSM systems rely on the phone to supply this information.
:-)
::wink::
AFAIK, a Nokia on AT&T wireless can do this. I want to try it but I can't find the Netmon enabling tool for my particular phone. (cries)
So the cell company still bills you on your "official" phone number for your talk time. They really use the IMEI number for billing, of which one of many can be tied to your account. On your bill it's broken out by this IMEI, but they instead display the phone number orignally associated with it when you added the phone to the account.
Again, that mapping only exists in the billing system.
But if you call, lets say, something out-of-area or a 1-900 number, then whatever fake number you set in your phone is getting the toll charges. Hehehe.
Still doesn't save you from your wireless airtime, but presumably you're on a monthly plan.
Or you've unlocked your phone and done something real bad. ROR!
More practically people can't use your phone-number for a reverse lookup.
PS - Hey, slashdot, anyone have the netmon tool for a Nokia 630i? I'll be your best friend forever.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
If this works for the credit card authentication and activations - the credit card industry is in for a huge upswing in fraud related losses... This sucks... Hadesan
I'm not kidding, as I was reading this article my phone rang and the caller ID said 609-555-5555.
That is freaky. Get out of my house slashdot readers!
In the ToS, it'll state something about how you agree to allow them to record every conversation.
~~~
Click here, you know you wanna!
in some areas redials the last caller...
i wonder if i spoof my phone number to 911...
well put, friend
"Why is it that when we talk to God, we call it praying, but when God talks to us, we are schizophrenic?"
--Lily Tomlin
I am amazed that in the US anyone has any control over caller ID other than the telcos.
Here in the UK as far as I'm aware your exchange transmits details (which it knows - it knows your number!) about the caller to the recipient's exchange which then transmits it on to the recipient's caller ID equipment (if they subscribe to the service). If you are behind a PBX then tough, the receiver gets the "switchboard number" or number withheld.
Is it just me or is this far more sensible?
What could be more benign?
My God! Not only did he used a symbol of forbidden fruit as his trademark, but also this?! He is soooo damned...
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Caller ID is great for "ignoring" telemarketers, but I have hacked together an old PC and phone to make something I call the "Telecrapper". It uses the CallerID string to determine if the call is PhoneSpam. If it is it answers the call and plays a series of pre-recorded sound files. It uses silence detection to determine when the telemarketer is talking, so it carries on a virtual conversation with the dope on the other end. I haven't had one yet figure out that they're talking to a computer. These virtual conversations have all been recorded, and the best ones can be listened to at www.pagerealm.com/tc2k. They are all very funny to listen too. Just scroll down to the bottom to listen to the example WAV files.
That always gets me in.
One of the questions from the guy test:
Alien beings from a highly advanced society visit the Earth, and you are the first human they encounter. As a token of intergalactic friendship, they present you with a small but incredibly sophisticated device that is capable of curing all disease, providing an infinite supply of clean energy, wiping out hunger and poverty, and permanently eliminating oppression and violence all over the entire Earth. You decide to:
- a. Present it to the President of the United States.
- b. Present it to the Secretary General of the United Nations.
- c. Take it apart and see how it works.
The only reason for not looking inside a black box is that there is some other more interesting black box next to it or maybe if your wife and kids are yelling at you to fix the plumbing disaster currently under way in the bathroom.FreeSpeech.org
... that and the fact they don't offer it here in rural-land...
Feloneous
IANAL, but I've seen actors play them on TV
Now we can all hide our calls behind those "555" numbers! Excellent!
You are showing us what is supposed to be.
But in Reality these ASSHOLES break the law ALL the time.
And since we CAN'T track them back through their phone number, we have ZERO Legal recourse.
So your showing us the so called law is a waste of our time.
"Would you like to set your Home Page to 'http://www.searchit.com/home.html'?"
"Get off the cross - we need the wood" - Tori Amos
Go ahead. Identify yourself to a false identfier service...
It is true that the people are responsible for their own actions.
But, arent the credit card companies responsible for their actions? They *know* the demographic they are selling to. They know where this is all headed in the end. The person on the recieving end may or may not be ignorant of the consequences, this may be their learning experience. But the CCC knows. And they extend the credit anyway. I know they do, I was on the recieving end of offers beyond count when I was in not so good shape in the credit arena. They ran my scores ( towards the bad end ) and decided to offer me credit. I didnt take them, except to transfer money to lower interest rates ( not all of them are worth taking, BTW. )
emt 377 emt 4
Sorry about that. Pagerealm inserts the ads and propaganda randomly to pay for the bandwidth. I don't have any control over the popups or banners. I'm not trying to sell anything though. My only crime is trying to save money on my webhosting.
*phone rings along in vatican .. ...
:)
<Phreaker> Do you have Pope John Paul in a Can ?
<Vatican> No, he's in his robes
<Phreaker> Uhh... I think you can let him out now
<Vatican> Who's this ?
*dial tone
<Vatican2> Who was that ?
<Vatican> I don't know, but find me the phone admin and get the idiot with extension +666
Sorry couldn't resist
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur
Working for a small telecom company having the same technologies available to us to do what this guy is doing (there's no magic involved) I decided to ask my boss what he thought about the news article. He said it was interesting and so illegal....
-----
Stand by, receiving SIG... ERROR 6502: connection timed out!
This thing won't work with caller ID in cellular phones, would it? (Assuming there is caller ID in cellular phones in USA...)
Slashdot community, please notice: I am looking for a girlfriend.
Nave H. Weiss
Ha Ha Ha!
:)
That was very hilarious, especially example #5
I'll be sure to try to build something like this at home
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
(They use caller-id to authenticate most users.)
Details: http://sneak.datavibe.net/blog/read/641
-j
You've been able to use a web-based phone service to spoof your number for many years. I recall using dialpad.com (Which was hyped for free internet long distance back in the lare 90's) and was able to type in whatever number I wanted to show up as the recipient.
Stop playing with yourself!
http://star38.com/new
Eat more bacon!
When my wife and I first got married, our phone number was identical to an 800 phone sex line. No kidding.
This phone number was apparently published widely in Europe (presumably in the Netherlands and Germany, based on the people doing the calling). They also mistakenly thought that the 801 area code (formerly for all of Utah, now just Salt Lake City) was a toll-free call.
Since my wife didn't speak any German, she would just simply ask "What? Who are you?" and there would be something said by the caller in German or Dutch. Since I had some German classes back in High School, I knew enough of the language to finally figure out at least where they calling from. In reality, I felt pity on the guys doing the calling, as they were rather desperate and getting charged an arm and a leg for international long distance. When the area code was reassigned, the phone calls stopped.
Right now my phone number is one digit off from a local grocery store that also allows senior citizens to call in orders for delivery to their home. Really this is a neat service for people who otherwise couldn't do this, but trying to get into the head of somebody in their 80's or 90's that the phone number they just called is not the grocery store they thought it was. My wife usually has a conversation like this:
My Wife: Hello?
Caller: Is this Macy's (the grocery store)
My Wife: No, this is a private residence.
Caller: Oh, I'm sorry. (*hangs up*)
***telephone rings again 10 seconds later***
My Wife: Hello?
Caller(same as before): Is this Macy's?
My Wife: No, you misdialed the number again.
Caller: I know I called this same number before young lady. Now stop fooling around and get the manager on the phone!
My Wife: OK, just a sec....
Myself: Hello?
Caller: You have very rude employees. That last young lady you had on the phone should be fired.
Myself: I'll look into that. Can I help you?
Caller: Sure. I'd like the following items...
Myself(breaking into the conversation): You do know that this is not Macy's?
Caller: Of course this is Macy's.
Myself: Please mam', just try to call back and this time use the correct phone number.
Caller: How rude! I will never shop at your store again.
I generally don't get rude that often, but sometimes it is fun. Generally I try to help them out (they are seniors... I don't want kids doing this to me when I'm that age), but we've been able to get to know several older community members rather well. You just have to look at it with a bit of humor and not worry about the situation.
Hee!
:) ]
:)
:)
:-D I'm still debating on the best way to use that info...
My current number was transferred from the maintenance person number for a 275 unit assisted living apartment complex. Even after 18 months (time since the old number was disconnected - was transferred to me a few months after that) I still get calls. Sometimes angry ones (usually the ones involving some catastrophic building failure).
Caller: We have no heat! Get this fixed or by God I'll call the management and get your sorry ass fired!
Me: Sorry sir, but all our maintenance has been outsourced to Mexico.
Caller: !($#*%#$)*! *click*
Me: *chuckles* and grabs another beer.
--
Then there are these kinds (abbreviated for posting):
Caller: *quavery elderly voice* My toilet won't flush, can you come over and fix it?
Me: Well, when you press the lever, what happens?
Caller: Nothing, and the lever is really loose. It didn't used to be that way.
Me: Ok. Remove the top of the toilet tank and look inside. You should see a chain hanging from the arm that is attached to the flush lever, and it should be attached to a rubber thingy on the bottom of the toilet.
Caller: Ok, let me get my gloves... well, the chain is laying on the bottom of the toilet. That isn't right, is it?
Me: No, it isn't. Take the chain and attach the end of it to one of the holes in that plastic arm that is part of the flush lever.
Caller: It works! Young man, you are a saint! I'll remember you in my prayers! [ hey, I figure I need all the help I can get
Me: No problem Ma'am, we live to serve [ puts down the phone, chuckling and wondering where to send the bill ]
Toilet Tech Support. lol. I've worked building maintenance in a number of apartment buildings I've lived in (easy way to get cheap/free rent if you know what you're doing) and I figure there are three categories of calls:
1) Fix it now or I'll callmanager/sue/come over with a gun. Solution: *click* [ this type will often hover over you while you fix things, making useless suggestions and asking repeatedly "Are you sure you know what you're doing?" - "Yessir, I did a home study course in electrical repair. Trust me."
2) The polite and friendly ones. Can often be taught. With these you can often rely on getting Christmas cards with pictures of people you don't even know.
3) The totally helpless ones - yet mostly kind - who will often feed you lavishly after you perform a simple two minute fix (or half a day's work). My personal favorites. (Mmmm...homemade roast and pie, and I didn't have to cook!)
--
Heh. I've spoken to the management of the complex several times, and they swear they've notified all the residents of the new numbers. The last time I did that, two weeks later we had a town-wide power outage, and I had more than twenty calls in thirty minutes. I wasn't home at the time and it filled my answering machine.
I still can't believe some of the creative profanity I heard on a couple of those calls. Guess experience shows
A couple weeks ago I had one of the maintenance people who works there come into where I work, and after I found out who he was, I mentioned the situation. He just grinned, rolled his eyes, and informed me that the management had never even bothered to mass-update the numbers, they just did it piecemeal. He also gave me the complex manager's home phone #
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
The National Debt is up to what, about $6 trillion? Which segment of the taxpaying public is carrying the greatest burden of that as a percentage of their annual income? Minimum wage hasn't gone up in how many years?
If you're trying to imply that the lower income demographic (those who are the ones who get in trouble with creditors, i.e., the ones we're talking about in this thread) are the ones feeling the biggest pinch on carrying their share of the national debt tax burden, then I'm sorry, but you'll have to try harder. You've overlooked one simple fact:
The poor don't pay taxes.
I don't have the numbers for the US, but in Canada, if your gross annual income is around $10,000 (i.e., the part-time minimum-wager you're talking about), then they wouldn't pay any income tax at all. The first $8,000 is completely tax-free for everybody. And there are lots of credits for housing, health, and other taxes that you're eligible for if your income is below various thresholds (which my hypothetical $10,000 income is below, in every case). Heck, they'd even get their Employment Insurance and Canada Pension Plan premiums rebated to them.
The truly poor, the ones in trouble with creditors, they don't pay any tax at all.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
According to these snippets I've been right on the money while you've been a typical propaganda lemming:
"Prolonged weakness in the labor market has left the nation with over a million fewer jobs than when the recession began. This is a worse position, in terms of recouping lost jobs, than any business cycle since the 1930's."
I don't know anything about the fire of conspiracy, but I smell the smoke of collusion.
What is happening is nothing less than a deterioration in the standard of living in the United States. Despite the statistical growth in the economy, the continued slack in the labor market has resulted in declining real wages for anxious American workers and a marked deterioration in job quality.
If the American workers aren't reaping those extra benefits, I wonder who is?
From 2000 through 2003 the median household income fell by $1,500 (in 2003 dollars) - a significant 3.4 percent decrease. That information becomes startling when you consider that during the same period there was a strong 12 percent increase in productivity among U.S. workers.
That's making it difficult to pay back debt. I wonder where the profits from that productivity are going.
"So the economic pie is growing gangbusters and the typical household is falling behind," said Jared Bernstein, the institute's senior economist and a co-author of the new book.
Keep that debtor society turning!
This is the part of the story that spotlights the unfairness at the heart of the current economic setup in the U.S. While workers have been remarkably productive in recent years, they have not participated in the benefits of their own increased productivity. That doesn't sound very much like the American way.
And that's exactly what I've been saying for the last 20-some posts.
According to the institute, "Between 1947 and 1973 productivity and real median family income both grew 104 percent, a golden age of growth for both variables." That parallel relationship began to break down in the 1970's, but it is only recently that it fell apart altogether, leaving us with the following evidence of unrestrained inequity:
So the preceeding generations didn't stay out of debt because of their browbeating frugality. They were part of generations which were treated to some very favorable conditions.
"In the 2000-03 period income shifted extremely rapidly and extensively from labor compensation to capital income (profits and interest)," so that the "benefits of faster productivity growth" went overwhelmingly to capital.
More cash for the lenders to lend out to the families slipping behind... at 19% interest.
The end result of all this is a portrait of American families struggling just to hang on, rather than to get ahead. The benefits of productivity gains and economic growth are flowing to profits, not worker compensation. The fat cats are getting fatter, while workers, at least for the time being, are watching the curtain come down on the heralded American dream.
But yet void* would have you think it's just a conspiracy theory.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
More numbers from the Economic Policy Institute, specifically from the here.
"In 2001, 20% of all income went to the top-earning 1% of households, which held 33.4% of all net worth. The 90% of households with the lowest incomes received 54.8% of all income but only had 28.5% of all net worth."
"Since 1983, the top 1% of wealth holders consistently owned more than 30% and the bottom 80% held less than 16% of all wealth from 1983 to 2001."
"In 2001, the top fifth of households held 84.4% of all wealth; the middle fifth held only 3.9% -- the smallest share since 1962. The bottom fifth had negative net worth -- owing more than they owned."
If 20% of the American population is kept in debt I don't need to be a statistician to know there's something wrong with the economic system.
"In 2001, 17.6% of all households had a zero or negative net worth; just over 30% had a net worth of less than $10,000."
Since net worth includes any equity for their homes it's pretty reasonable to think they're living with some form of credit debt. Not all of their net worth is in their incomes.
"Average wealth grew by $2.8 million from 1989 to 2001 for the top 1% of households -- a 2.1% annual increase. For the middle 20%, average wealth increase by $11,100 -- or 1.3% per year."
Net flow is moving up the economic ladder. It's a pyramid scheme not a conspiracy.
"For the past 40 years, approximately 80% of all wealth has been held by 20% of households."
I've always thought of it as 95/5, but same thing.
"The top 1% of stock owners hold 44.9% of all stocks, by value, while the bottom 80% own just 5.8% of total stock holdings."
It's not a conspiracy. It's a pyramid scheme.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80