Slashdot Mirror
French Riots Lead to Crackdown on Blogs
Browncoat writes "Wired reports that because of the recent riots in France, authorities have shut down a blog called Hardcore, whose participants have allegedly violating a French law concerning violent speech. Many bloggers fear there will be consequences for them if they are outspoken, even if it is in a nonviolent way. From the article: 'Ahmed Meguinia, a political activist who saw some of the Paris region's hardest-hit areas during the past week, said many bloggers feared prosecution for publishing even nonviolent content. While not condoning blogs that incited violence, he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot. Instead, the world repeatedly sees CNN images of burning cars and shops, he said.'"
That's a loaded term. Show me where France forced ethnicities into certain parts of the city, Warsaw Ghetto style. People live wherever they can afford to. Guess what? Beverly Hills is 'ethnically segregated' too.
We in America call them the "Freedom Riots" (tm).
It's interesting to see what goodwill (none) France has gotten by pandering to the Islamists. Perhaps that will influence future French behaviour when dealing with radical Islamic states. Hope springs eternal.
The coverage on blogs from New Orleans was excellent IMHO.
Can anyone direct me, and the rest of Slashdot, to a decent blog concerning this event?
Thanks in advance.
Wouldn't it be ironic of France of all places was the starting point for a global uprising?
Thought I'd never see the day. Well, the French certainly do need a creative boost, and nothing gets the literary talents of Europe fermenting like a good upheaval of society and oppression of the lower classes. Maybe even ol' Bushie will make a cameo with Chirac and offer the dregs of society some cake 'n pie.
Ex nihilo nihil fit.
... we have laws against inciting violence here, and most other places have the same deal.
If some American blog advocated setting fire to police stations and lynching Dick & George, it would also be "cracked down" upon.
Let's not get all hypocritical here.
You suppose that the french bloggers will have to download and use the french blog with tips on how to get the word out through an oppressive regime?
It was released just in time! Any later and they would have had to delay it due to them working out issues in free speech.
Is it sad that I am more likely to recognize you and your posts by your sig than your name or UID?
Of course, the free speach should weigh heavy, but they should dampen the ones that try to fuel the fire.
Bullshit! There is no valid reason to restrict speech unless it presents an immediate danger and serves no valid point of discussion (yelling fire in a movie theater).
Simply banning all speech that might be "violent" is a very slippery slope. It would probably have made it illegal for me to encourage people to take to the streets to protest the Florida fiasco in 2000. They might do better by looking at the reason why these people are rioting in the first place. Perhaps because they feel cheated by the system? Perhaps because they aren't even allowed to wear their religious headwear to school anymore?
As a sidenote: I don't ever want to hear people slime the United States again. It's rather interesting that Muslim youth over here aren't rioting -- even though we are the ones "at war" with certain followers of that faith. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
It had to happen someday.
All Hail Discordia. Hail Eris. Fnord.
So the French Government sticks it to the politically powerless bloggers. Will they also forbid those same images on CNN referenced in the blurb? I would be willing to bet that more potential rioters got their initial impressions from the mainstream media than from blogs.
Of course, you cannot coordinate attacks on CNN, but shutting down blogs will be not only ineffective but counterproductive. A well-informed security service would be monitoring the blogs and spiking them with false info to make arrests.
OK, I'd prefer those who do the wrong thing to be stupid rather than clever...
Using plain ol' text since 1968
Destroying property, raping, killing people, all of those are bad. But when these radicals go so far as to EXPRESS OPINIONS on the internet. Well, they've gone to far. Let's hope France does the world a favor and puts these radicals to death!
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
And why doesn't the french government talk about that?
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
France may be a worker's paradise, but only if you if have a job.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
They're no worse off than a load of white French , they're just playing
the discrimination card in the way minorities do when they want something
from the majority. Best thing to do with these rioters is to shoot then.
Rioting would soon stop then , either because they'd be scared or because
after a while there wouldn't be any of them left to riot.
That's like saying Osama Bin Laden was "driven" to attack the WTC. Or the people who attacked London in July were "driven" to it by the victims.
Many ( but centainly not all) of these rioters are racists. The difference between them and other disillusioned youths in their North African homecountries is that they're living close enough to the hated group to actually attack them, in this case their property and the police.
As nobody is complety objective, so how is "interpreted free speach" will be free?
DON'T STEAL MUSIC!
Whatever. Let's be totally honest here; the French response to the riots has been totally, utterly useless. Without exception. They have no idea how to even start to tackle the rioters, because they don't even understand what the riots are about. To be fair, it's unlikely many of the rioters themselves even understand what they're rioting about.
The French authorities are shooting in the wind, wildly trying to be seen doing something, even if it's totally useless and almost certainly contravines the European Charter on Human Rights. This is simply one of the many examples of the shot-in-the-dark shotgun effect that the authorities have employed, because they don't know what else to do.
A French War of the Worlds
The author has lived in France for several decades and this is what he says:
In a nation that insists immigrants accept the monolithic secular French culture, a great divide has grown. Part of it is the insular nature of Islamic North African culture. But much of it is that "French" France still rejects its North African countrymen.
They don't get good jobs or decent financial opportunities. Their unemployment rate is often as high as 50%. There isn't a single Frenchman or Frenchwoman of North African origin (or black, for that matter) in the cabinet, and only a handful hold any position of rank in the civil and commercial bureaucracy. There are virtually no black or Arab anchors on French TV, or North African cultural presence in the theater or cinema.
This has further angered the Muslim population, driving it deeper into its own ghetto mentality and to communal violence. When I first came to France 50 years ago, North African immigrants spoke Maghreb Arabic, but their French-born children proudly spoke French. Today, the beurs, the young French-born generation of North Africans, talk to each other in Arabic.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Before anyone starts spouting about how fascist the French government is and how this could never happen in the USA, keep in mind that web sites are routinely taken down in the USA by government AND corporations (as if there is any difference anymore). A site can be taken down entirely because of urging from a [corporation/gov.official], without any judicial oversite whatsoever if they say it threatens [profits/national security]. In addition, who knows how many newsletters, sites, or blogs were never even published due to [corporate/government] intimidation and the threat of [a ruined credit rating/getting on the wrong watch list]?
Chirac will blame this on Bush.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Let's examine this statement:
>>he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot.
>>lack of media coverage explaining
No doubt. From the media, one would think it was just random collections of poor "youth" on a little spree, releasing youthful energy by burning a car or two (thousand). The reality is that it's a well-defined group of people which I'll get to in a moment.
>>ethnically segregated inhabitants
Do you mean the "muslim immigrants (many of whom are illegal aliens), primarily male aged 14-26, who, by choice, are poorly integrated into France's culture (read: hates France, doesn't speak French, disdain for Europeans, etc.) and thus more likely to be unemployed (and living off of France's generous welfare system, placing a burden on the French)?" It's hard to tell, with all those PC buzzwords in the media.
Look, it's what happens when a culture doesn't insist that immigrants conform. They hate their host country and are using this as an excuse to terrorize, burn, loot, and generally express their disdain and hatred for France.
Anything else I can clear up for you?
That's not even a flamebait, it's plain stupid.
There is no "radical islamic state" that is rioting in France, it's 1% hopeles people that started, and 99% idiots that love setting their (also poor and hopeless) neighbours car on fire.
Beverly Hills is certainly "ethnically segregated" How does that have any bearing on whether Paris is ethnically segragated or not? This doesn't have to be as a result of laws. France probably has the same issues of extreme poverty and illiteracy, a culture of dependency caused by welfare, and white flight from inner cities just as the USA does. The difference is here it is atleast acknowledged and discussed even if grudingly at times.
In contrast the french attitude seems to be either "there is no problem" or "atleast we're not america"
Well the Frenchifada is the direct result of choosing not to face the problem.
Actually, from what I've read, unemployment is more like 50%. Add to it that there is little or no represntation of the north african imigrant in the upper echelons of government, and it's understandable why there's dissatisfaction.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
The problem in a nutshell is Islam is not just a religion, it is also a political force that denies the legitimacy of other belief systems and other political orientations.
Democracy is not an option!
The Muslims that are rioting hope to gain politically from their actions in order to receive more entitlements in the already welfare rich environment (subsidized housing, free health, free education, even food relief).
I am willing to bet they want sharia law for their community and then they will continue to push the boundaries of their communities out.
One last thought, 50 years ago Turkey was 50% Muslim, today it is over 95% Muslim.
Dude
And they leave out the most unforgivable crime: posting a page written exclusively non-French. But they let Roman Polanski, a convicted child rapist, to run around their enlightened nation.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
The crackdown isn't on the blogs. There were a number of bloggers inciting violence!
/. story with no story.
Not the same thing. Another
This parent is not a troll! That is a very valid question that is not being talked about enough in the major media.
Meh.
So, the revolution is here, and after all these years it might be easier to figure out who isn't against the wall first. Any ideas?
It's France. The rioters are supposedly too poor to go on strike properly.
one of the reasons is unemployment. France's national unemployment is around 8 or 10%. If you look only at young 20 somethings, then the unemployment is almost double that, and if you look at young 20 something immigrants, then its double that or so, almost 40% I think. Another reason I've heard are drug dealers and such criminals using the violence to keep the cops out of their turf. As of right now there is little suggesting islamic or jihadi influence as a cause of the riots. However I would bet that al qaeda and other radical islamic organizations are taking notice of the riots and planning. Here's a topic page with links to mostly right wing blog posts about the riots. Also, I recommend reading Jim Dunnigan In France, It's Not Jihad, and Never Has Been who's usually fairly insightful. And of course a link to my favorite blogger, Instapundit
"In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
I daresay the situation in the US might play out differently.
Pretty chilling to think of some of the major gangs in the US getting out of hand.
The Malvo thing a couple of years ago, where two dudes in a Malibu terrorized the greater DC area, really didn't stir the local populace to action. (I live in northern Virgnia, and saw little evidence of attitude other than 'let the authorities handle it'). Step that up to widespread unrest, though, and it might play out differently. That 'silent majority' with all of those small caliber tributes to the 2nd Ammendment in the closet might quickly take events along a different course. I'm by no means advocating such. When the rule of law disintegrates, it gets hard to distinguish the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
The best part is: "Many bloggers fear there will be consequences for them if they are outspoken, even if it is in a nonviolent way".
People can fear what they want, I don't care. Free speech - just as everything else - has limits. And it is illegal (in France) to try to incite people to violence, specially against police, firemen, etc... These two guys deserved to go down. They did. All is well.
If only the rest of France could be that straightforward...
Write boring code, not shiny code!
Well my understanding of the thing is that they never were allowed to wear those in the first place (since the laïcité law from the early 1900s).
Here's a topic page with links to mostly right wing blog posts about the riots. Also, I recommend reading Jim Dunnigan In France, It's Not Jihad, and Never Has Been who's usually fairly insightful. And of course a link to my favorite blogger, Instapundit and finally The Belmont Club has a few posts about it, just scroll down.
"In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
Or maybe Europe is closer in location and historic ties to the muslim parts of the world than the US is? Maybe this has nothing to do with a war, but more with a large influx of muslims seeking riches, but not finding it?
Maybe this riots are a promotion for the release of V for Vendetta
Denmark has had really severe problems with that, but so far the groups fight eachother. None of the European countries have faced up to the transmigration problem and still handle them and immigrants alike under antiquated immigration laws designed to handle a slow trickle of individuals back in the 1950's. No system is really in place to get the people new job skills for those that need it, proper language skills, and an acceptance or appreciation of existing values and mores.
As a result, you get situations like in the Netherlands where each of the 4 largest cities in the country have a first generation immigrant/transmigration populations of over 40% each. Or in Malmö, Sweden where Swedes are now the single largest ethnic minority, even counting second generation immigrants/transmigrants as Swedes, regardless of assimilation.
There is also the problem of double standards. Any questioning or criticism of the system results in personal verbal attacks and accusations of intolerance. Any criticism of the behaviour of the new comers is likewise attacked with accusations of intolerance and racism. In contrast, newcomers can get away with statements and actions that would put a 'native' in serious legal trouble, resulting in jail or fines. That has to stop and the reality of the situation be looked at as well as the intended goals.
How does importing 5 million transmigrants into a country of 5 million or even 60 million help the situation for either the people (both new and old) in the new country or those left in the country they have escaped from? We all know what happens to a business if there is high turn over, what about whole cities or countries?
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
They should have built a Coliseum before the city hit population 5 then made a bee line for Monotheism to build a cathedral. At the very least, they could have turned a citizen or two into an elvis as a stop gap emergency measure.
Pah. French AI's a joke.
(It's a joke, I think the real situation is horrible.)
"Driven to riot" implies a lack of accountability on the part of the people looting and burning one of history's great civilizations. I find the argument that inflammatory statements from the French government are the direct cause of the riots offensively absurd, esp. in light of France's reputation for pandering to the multicultural tolerance dogma. The sad truth is that it is this so-called "tolerance" that fueled the fire in the first place. Blogs are not sanctified absolutely by virtue of free speech (esp. if those blogs are being used to incite and coordinate violent attacks on the public). Does anyone really believe that freedom of speech extends to tactical communications in promotion of mayhem? And if the police don't stop the riots, the same people protesting the violation of personal freedom are going to protest the inefficacy of the police. It's all so depressingly predictable and pathetic.
Advocating, promoting, etc. of violence isn't protected speech.
Anybody else see that Frontline report about the 911 terrorists? Sure, a lot of them where Saudis, but nearly all of the were radicallized during their time in Europe.
Well my understanding of the thing is that they never were allowed to wear those in the first place (since the laïcité law from the early 1900s).
If that's the case then perhaps they should have repealed that law instead of adding to it? How can you claim to have true religious freedom and care about Human Rights otherwise?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Any complex sociopolitical situation needs to boiled down into one catchy buzzword. *gate is reserved for American political scandals so I suggest we call this one -- Frenchifada. Go on say it:
Frenchifada
Frenchifada
Frenchifada
spread it around!
Too bad for the French the EU is not in charge of DNS. They could just delete his domain name:)
I'm french. I live in Paris.
As I understand it from reading the news today, those blogs (ran by kids respectively 18, 16, and 14 years old) were taken down and their authors were arrested not because they expressed opinions but because they called for more violence and murdering of police officers (namely by setting them on fire).
Which is illegal according to french laws.
Law broken. Law breaker arrested. I fail to see what the big deal is.
Anything you do can get you slashdotted, including nothing.
Most of these youth's, while poorly integrated into French society, are second generation French citizens, who speak French as their first (and largely only) language.
-- It only takes 20 minutes for a liberal to become a conservative thanks to our new outpatient surgical procedure!
1. I think by dampen the ones that try to fuel the fire he probably meant the ones that were explicitly inciting further violence. So we're (you, me and parent) are probably in agreement that those specific guys could have their free speech rights truncated in interests of greater public safety.
2. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom? I think more than just religious freedom it might have to do with the fact that the French state is a secular one. When they beheaded their king back in the French Revolution they were not just doing away with the monarchy, they were also symbolically dethroning God. Ever since they have had an aggressively secular government. So it's no wonder that a minority group that is extremely religious feels at odds with a government that borders on anti-religious.
This is in contrast with American government, which was not founded as a secular state. People who say it was are misreading the Constitution and ignoring history. I'm not saying it was Christian, but it was at least fundamentally theist. Just read the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson, certainly not a Christian by any conventional standard, began attending a Christian church when he was president. Why? He explained that he felt that the Christian faith tended towards the betterment of society and thus it was up to him to set a good example and attent. The "seperation of church and state" was really only intended to be a seperation between the state and any specific establishment of religion - not to set the state against religion or expel God from the state.
There are dangers in giving into the demands of the religious right - ID and all the nonesense. But by the same token, if we allow America to continue to be secularized (ala banning the Pledge of Allegiance and essentially declaring the Declaration of Independence itself to be ruled "unconstitutional") we are perhaps setting the stage to follow France towards an inevitable confrontation between the forces of religion and atheism.
I'm not saying that it is only religious tension that has resulted in the French violence, but it is certainly an exacerbating element.
-stormin
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
A different Wired article explains the official line between free speech and inciting violence. "The Council of Europe has adopted a measure that would criminalize Internet hate speech, including hyperlinks to pages that contain offensive content." "Specifically, the amendment bans "any written material, any image or any other representation of ideas or theories, which advocates, promotes or incites hatred, discrimination or violence, against any individual or group of individuals, based on race, colour, descent or national or ethnic origin, as well as religion if used as pretext for any of these factors."
We are all just people.
Geesh, isn't it about time US? Are you gonna let the wimpy French out-uprise you? Hell, you're all even armed!
Meh.
The rioters are mostly /completely(?) Muslim. There is a Jihad going on in Europe, although most people don't really know it or are too afraid to "discriminate" to do anything about it. Note that not a single mosk burned down, but churches were attacked. The French even offered the Muslims something of their own governance in the affected suburbs in response to the riots.
In the not so far away future Europe will be fully Islamized. France is already 10% Muslim, mostly young people who will get children of their own in the coming years. Native Europeans are getting very little children today and the large "babyboom" generation is nearing the end of their lives. This ethnic war will be won by demographics and apathy.
I am not going to wait until the Islamofascists grab power and probably migrate away from this continent. I would stay if my fellow Europeans weren't such willing Dhimmis.
I keep hearing people making this reference to the French's penchant for surrender... are they refering to VietNam?
Or maybe Europe is closer in location and historic ties to the muslim parts of the world than the US is? Maybe this has nothing to do with a war, but more with a large influx of muslims seeking riches, but not finding it?
That's funny, because just one of our states (Michigan) has a larger Muslim population then any other Western nation save France, and overall we have the largest number of Muslims in the United States then any other Western country. I don't see any riots here.
And it's not just about economics either my friend. I don't see Mexicans/Latinos rioting in the United States when they come here to seek their fortune and don't find it. We embrace other cultures and assimilate them into our own. A lot of other countries just reject them outright.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
... are called froggers.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
That must be why a number of the arsonists have been captured on video shouting "Allahu akbar!" as they throw petrol into some poor bugger's car.
I'll give you a free clue: it doesn't matter if you think this is a religious issue or not, the rioters think it is a religious issue. And what they want appears to be exclusive religious, social and legal power over their own turf; that's why they throw stones at every manifestation of the French state which intrudes, from police down to ambulances and fire trucks.
You fail it! You lame fuckster! mwahahahahah!
The issue IS about religious freedom, this point being about freedom FROM religion. The Joe-average french person usually see religious matters to be private, and best kept to yourself. This of course causes problems with people with a different background-culture about religion.
Maybe bloggers should move to some hosting located outside of the France? Maybe not in Europe, as some countries have laws that for example prevents the search engines (local versions - like google.fr) from returning certain pages. The same goes for auctions etc...
Hey, if a blog says, "meet me out back of xxx at 2100 so we start start a few cars on fire", then I'd say it's clearly criminal and should be taken down. If it simply states outrage about someone's living conditions, and sympathizes with the feelings of the rioters, then it should be left alone.
What we really need to see is the exact text of the blog in question before we all go running our mouths off about freedom of speech. After all, we accept that you can't shout fire in a crowded theatre and get off the hook on a freedom of speech defense. Also a mob boss can't order his cronies to go shoot someone and hide behind freedom of speech either. Freedom of speech is supposed to protect your right to express opinions, not your right to use your mouth (or keyboard) to organize a criminal act.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Perhaps its because we live in an enlightened nation which will declare the kid an enemy non-combatant, then ship him to Eastern Europe to be tortured, or to Iraq to be homosexually raped.
Too much freedom when they insist on degrading science education on behalf of their religion. And murdering medical doctors for a legal medical procedure. Or blowing up people at an sports event. Or putting people in the ICU because they look gay. (They never "mean" to murder them...)
Everyone in NYC knows exactly why those punks in France are rioting. Its called Dinkins law enforcement procedures. Incompetence should not be mistaken as "justified" violent protest against Jews, or generations of societal discrimination in France.
Is it sliming when I say the U.S. president lied about WMD as a pretext to invade a Muslim nation, and the people who support his lies are responsible for all the civilians being slaughtered there? Or that Americans are no better than the Sunnis that ran Abu Graib?
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
I had heard that the whole deal is about unemployment and the difficulty of getting a job nowadays. I also heard that the French government just signed some kind of social benefits law or something to help either provide for or help the unemployed get jobs (didn't get a lot of details).
Either way, it's abundantly clear that by doing this, the French have officially surrendered.....to themselves.
"You will pay for your lack of vision..." - Emperor Palpatine to Ray Charles
Then the idiots should vote. Burning homes/cars/businesses/people isn't they way to go about getting your way.
thanks a ton for an insightful post.
Its obviously meant to be "Funny" or "Insightful".
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
France is not US. There is no first amendment. Hate speech is one of several prohibited forms of speech.
If one really believe that blocking hate speech is censorship, one is clearly not integrated in french society and knowlegeable of french laws.
Now, one claiming that blocking hate speech is censorship, and going in the street to riot, is clearly displaying comprehension of french mentality : a lot of discussions, of bittering, and no real evolution without some violence (and even then, real evolution is not french).
SPYvSPY must be thinking like, "France is liberal. Liberals like multicultural dogma. Therefore France must embrace multicultural dogma." Yet SPYvSPY's conclusion is wrong. France tolerates only one culture: the traditional French one. That's why France is about the only place on Earth where Muslim women can't wear headscarves. That's why all schools in France and its overseas territories teach exactly the same approved curriculum; if it's December the sixth grade class will spend the second week of the month on snow, even in French Tahiti. Depite the Liberty, Equality, Fraternity stuff, France is officially and socially committed to a vision of traditional French culture being better than anything else on Earth, and certainly the only culture to be officially embraced and encouraged within French territory. After all, the culture that invented the phrase Liberty, Equality, Fraternity must be better than any other, right? They even have an official government body dedicated to keeping English and other foreign words out of their language.
The riots are happening in France rather than in Britain or the Netherlands or the US precisely because France has the approach to single-cultural dogma that American and Dutch and British conservatives are so frustrated that our own societies and governments fail to fully embrace. Multicultural appreciation and tolerance is precisely what France lacks the most. For comparable intolerance of other cultures, you'd have to go someplace like Saudi Arabia.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
There's a difference between censorship and shutting down goatse-esque calls to intifadah by radical terrorist elements. Anybody calling that censorship would probably jump up pretty quick if someone threw a Molotov cocktail at their PC (I would assume).
Let them blog their little fingers off. In their own country.
i got ball this is my adress 108 20 37 av corona come n do it iam give u the sidekick so I can hit you wit it
It's interesting you point out socialist labor laws as the source of all evil. I'm guessing you're not from the east side of the Atlantic.
May I also point out noone ever goes 'postal' in Europe, and that besides this, there's such a thing as an evaluation period.
It is very unclear, and this FUD is the real and desired effect of censorship. Prior restraint.
there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot.
Because we don't care?
You know what, if you live in country where your government is more interested in pushing you into servitude for their own gains then instantiate public works [e.g. schools, roads, hospitals, etc] then not much I can or want to do about it. It's bad enough that piece by piece we're selling off our own nations ["would you like fries with that?"] that now I also have to worry that some shit from north africa doesn't have enough education in him?
I'm sorry what? This is the day and age of the internet. If you live in France, have access to net [which I bet most of these shits do] and you can't learn yourself a thing or two then too bad. It shows you can't overcome problems which you're going to face in a professional career anyways.
I'm not saying these people aren't getting the royal screw job, I'm saying they have to deal with it and overcome. These riots will do zero to get them help or achieve a higher quality of life. Maybe if they protested peacfully for productive things [e.g. more access to education] they wouldn't have these problems?
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Especially burning down their OWN neighbourhood. Now if they were trashing some upper-class city, then yeah I'd understand the point of the protest. But burning your neighbour's car, who doesn't make that much of a living in the first place ...
Some people are saying "It's all economics, they're poor / unemployed so they are fighting against the Man the only way they can", while others are saying "It's all religion, they're all middle-eastern, its what they do".... but those are just the talking points of the far Left and far Right. The issue, as always, is more complicated.
What you have are immigrant population from French colonies in North Africa (who happen to be of middle-eastern and african descent) who have entered France through their weaker immigration laws. The French are traditionally very nationalistic (see their Language boards), and the immigrants were discriminated against and were not assimilated into mainstream cultures. Secondly, the middle-eastern culture itself is very prideful, mainly becase of their religious practices and family customs. The net result was that the immigrants self-segretated themselves into comminities of like-minded peoples.
So, the dominant european ethnics (through prejudice) resisted their assimilation, which had the net result of limiting the earning potential of the middle-eastern ethnics. The immigrants resist learning the French language and culture, and because of French law, are denied representation in their governments. When the government does try to "help" them with social programs, their culture see it as insulting / condescending. The net result of this is a hatred of a government that is constantly trying to patronize them and force them to give up their heritage.
So, these neighborhoods tend to have less governmental police prescence than other suburbs of Paris, which tends to lead to more criminal elements. It had gotten so bad, representatives of the federal government of France were claiming that they would "clean up the scum", which didn't go so well with the locals. In the latest chain of events, there were two youths who were fleeing police, hid in a utility station and accidentally electrocuted themselves. The immigrant cultures see this as police brutality & oppression, something denied by the authorities.
Finally, there are now criminal elemnts in the immigrant culture that are rising up and causing damage around the suburbs, fighting their "battle" against the government for making them the way they are... Yet, these people do not see that a share of that responsibility is theirs.
I don't think that the United States would stand idle for weeks without applying force if riots broke out like they did in France. People have a right to be angry and dissatisfied with their conditions, but a well planned, tactical revolt against the government would not be taken lightly. I really believe that France should give a 5 day warning to the rioters that they will use lethal force to subdue the unrest. You can't stand idle or hide from the problem and use cursory measures to hope the problem goes away. Put out the fire then once it's out address the cause of it so it doesn't happen again.
Therein lies the tale. Speech is not an objective concept. It's not like math where 2+2=4 for ever and always. Language is a fluid evolving entity. The word "read" can either in present or past tense. Sheep can be either singular or plural. How do you objectively evaluate a thing whose greatest valute lies in being open to interpretation?
I can't understand how this got modded Insightful. He is saying 1) They hate France 2) Don't speak french. 3) 1 & 2 is the reason for their unemployment.
The parent doesn't know much about France and is painfully wrong.
Sitting here reading
Joking aside, there's a long term battle going on here between workers and employers, and the whole french employment and social model is at stake. A powerful CEOs lobby known as MEDEF is pushing hard to shift the model to "Easy to hire, easy to fire", but that is hard to swallow when like those young rioters you have trouble finding anything but short term, underpaid jobs.
Anything you do can get you slashdotted, including nothing.
In accordance with the Académie française's directive regarding the anglicisation of the French language; 'Blogs' will referred to as notation d'enchaînement
My UID is prime!
To be frank (though not French) I actually knew very little about what has been going on over there and I'll have to admit further that I had only a mild indication of what was going on a mere two or three days ago. (I don't watch mainstream news these days and I haven't heard much on the radio on my way to or from work either.) So the depth of this story is somewhat new to me today.
So I pulled up google and queried, "why are there riots in france?" (literally) and I came up with a variety of links where, unsurprisingly, wikipedia was the most definitive on the subject. It's basically about unfair or otherwise misbehaving authorities coming down on black muslim youth. So it's not just in the USA. The wiki article also went on to explain that this situation has been growing for quite some time and that France's non-particiation in the Iraq war and such was likely, at least in part, related to France's domestic problem that would have undoubtedly exploded had they joined with Bush. (This brings entirely new light to the anti-French sentiment much of the US has felt... people need to know more about this and their reasons I think.)
Okay so it made Slashdot because someone added an anti-blogging spin on it. Good. So now I will opine about this as well.
Speech is just speech until someone acts on it. Can it be any more clear? I know we can't all be people who think for themselves, but it's sad and even offensive when law is written presuming that we can't, in fact, think for ourselves... further, it might not be too far to say that such law even attempts to make illegal independant thought.
Is this guy trying to say there is another side to the story than the one promulgated by the establishment's media whores? These people are just nuts. Crazies. I'm not even sure they are human. It's Us vs. Them, and we must prevail or society will crumble.
These blogger folks are up to no good, I tell ya. I'm getting out of this forum right now so I can drink my nice warm coffee in my comfortable chair while I read something less dissonant, like Fox. "We're right, they're nuts" - that's real news I can use.
... would seem to be a no-brainer, in terms of making the distinction. But France (and Germany) has a pretty long post-WWII history of making very strange distinctions (or not) between those things. The mess they're in now is shining a pretty bright light on some of their culture's built-in legal and philosophical oddities. Much is being made about France's supposed inability to integrate immigrants into their wider society, but there's more to it than that.
I spent some time yesterday talking to my neighbor who is from Cameroon, in Africa. Their culture was impacted considerably by German colonialism, and then lurched into Frenchness when the French were handed that German turf after WWII. As a result, many people from his generation head to France for higher education, and indeed, he has relatives there. He fondly recalled traveling there (and across Europe) as a younger man 15 years ago, and says that he hates it now because "it's no longer France."
He's appalled by the unwillingness of many people that move there to even learn French or fully grasp how the country works. He says that some people there do wish that it was easier to snap their fingers and "be" French - with all of the social niceties and better paying work that might suggest - but that the problem is more in the objectives of the immigrants. His personal take on it is that, indeed, it's not Moroccans (as an example) wanting to move to France, it's Morrocans wanting to move Morroco to France.
At any rate, he came here (to the US), and is working his ass off in two different businesses (wireless networking and carpet cleaning!). He came here with very little, and now has a decent house (luxurious, he says, by any standard he would otherwise have enjoyed in Cameroon or in France) and just bought his equally hard working wife a nice Mercedes.
He uses the internet for VoIP chats with his friends in France and Africa, haunts many message boards and blogs in both places, and encourages his relations in France to do the same. His take on it is that the French have become completely schizoid on this entire bundle of issues. They preach a culture/color-blind take on all things governmental (which he applauds), and seem to let into the country pretty much anyone who feels like being there (which he thinks is crazy). But his main observation was that the socialist aspects of the French government/economy are chiefly to blame for everything that's happening. He has a bird feeder out behind his house and laughs when the squirrels fight over the sunflower seeds - but he says that's pretty much what's happening in the immigrant-heavy French suburbs right now... people moving there for the welfare-ish resources, and now erupting into a frenzy over the ramifications of living like that (in contrast to the country's better-off people, but - according to my neighbor - still better off than they would be where they came from). I asked him if his perceptions are typical, and he said that he wishes they were (in the French 'burbs), but that they are among the extended Cameroonian ex-pat community in the DC area. He's shaking his head over the whole thing, and says he wishes that France would lighten up on the whole free speech thing, but that it would tighten up on immigration. The biggest thing, though, is the complete fear (on the part of law enforcement) of even entering some neighborhoods. The police there are completely powerless to deal with the thuggier elements in the public housing ghettos, and have pretty much thrown up their hands.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
(that is all)
So how do you want it? The french way with high labor costs or the Wal-Mart way with low pay?
from what I read, unemployment is like 250%. Actually no one works, we just sit there, relax, smoke weed, and receive money from the Marshall Plan.
God I like being a Communist !
Since I live in Paris and I used to live in one of those poor suburbs, my humble opinion might be worth more than 2 cents, so here it comes: ... They were not just discussing the problems.
1. There is no country in Europe that does not struggle with immigrants and children from immigrants from African origin. France has the largest number of them, hence the biggest problems. (This is also correlated to the anti-semitism problem in France: the largest arabic and the largest jewish populations of Europe are in France and anti semitism in France comes overwhelmingly from this arabic population)
2. Many of those rioters are simply criminals that do not want the police to be present in these suburbs and are demonstrating that it is their territory.
3. Islam has nothing to do with these rioters. If they were white, would we say it's because of christianity? These criminals are not muslim.
4. These bloggers were calling for physically hurting policemen, burning cars, schools,
5. What is this bullshit about journalists not talking about the causes of the social problems? All French newspapers, TV and radio news are just talking about that!
6. These riots happen almost exclusively in the poor suburbs of France, 99% of the French population has only seen burning cars on TV.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
America suffered a similar spate when some commentators observed that US foreign policy might have had something to do in motivating extremists to fly hijacked planes into buildings.
(Oh yes, #include "o.b.burn-karma-burn.h")
you should read everything on the internet as if it had "but I'm probably talking out of my ass" appended to it.
Some of their opponents have found other avenues of protest ...
I was debating how unwholesome KK Donuts are, and came across this defacement of the current Krispy Kreme wiki entry (who says wikis aren't up-to-the-minute)...
I can see bloggers who are afraid to post in their own countries adopting this tactic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krispy_Kreme
No system is really in place to get the people new job skills for those that need it, proper language skills, and an acceptance or appreciation of existing values and mores.
Asians never seem to need assistance from the "state" nor do Eastern European immigrants. They adopt and are often the most successful members of society.
Maybe they should crack down on the rioters first?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
The BBC coverage of the rioting has been unapologetically anti-authority, if not ostensibly so then with a clear leftist undertone. They don't condone the rioters' actions, but are not afraid to cite the likely causes - neglect of what have become inner-city ghettoes and discrimination against the inhabitants.* Of course, CNN would be given its marching orders if it was even seen to be being anti-white/Christian/etc. and pro-Islam.
:D
And I for one cannot say that I am even slightly surprised by the rioting. The white French attitude has always been shamelessly xenophobic, and finally it has come back to bite them in the arse, so to speak.
In Britain, anyway, we've always known the French like a bit of authoritarianism. So the censoring of blogs doesn't come as much of a surprise.
iqu
(* This is not to say that the UK is not without its racial tensions. Indeed, that country is at the moment engaged in something of a debate over "multiculturalism" - whatever that is - as it tries to decide how best to respond to the bombings of 7th July. But as so many will attest, in France, there is no shame in xenophobia, and it permeates the entire system, from the layman on the street to the judiciary and the politicians. Perfick tho' it most certainly ain't, there is at least some sense that xenophobia and discrimination are wrong.)
While some will jump and say that "stifling speech is evil" please note there is some speech which should be stifled. Just as the article discusses, shutting down blogs (or any kind of speech) that implores violent action is ok. There are many examples of this in our (US) law. For example, if you make a threat accident POTUS you have comitted a federal crime which could land you in jail. Even if the threat was only verbal.
While I am all for freedom of speech, it needs to be done in a non-abusive, constructive way...using blogs, forums, whatever to organize violent actions should not be allowed.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
I also agree with Jim Dunnigan analysis.
The riotter are only a minority, and the real impact on the french economy is very marginal. The medias are amplifying the reality, even if 800 cars have been burnt in one night, that's still located to (well known) specific areas.
I am french, I don't live near Paris, and I haven't seen a single car being burnt near me those last ten months. And that's probably the same for a majority of french.
People should stop trying to understand and interpret local problems with false assumptions or wrong references. France is not America, in any way, so stop talking of jihad when there is none.
It is true that there are people rioting, it is true that what we are given to see are the consequences of innappropriate and shameful comments/provocation from N. S., now don't try to search too much explanation, when someone insults people, the normal consequence is to have them react, when the insulted ones have no respect for the law or for their neighbours, when they don't trust in anything beside violence, you end with cars being burnt in the streets where those guys live, that's all.
esby
Whether you are a French or American politician, this is how to turn the shit that hits the fan into political gold:
When things blow up due to your negligence...
When your devout wish for it to happen on somebody else's watch doesn't come true...
When the public is clamoring for you to change things to be back the way you told them it was...
Then it's the time for vigorous, severe but above all ineffectual and destructive action.
It has to be vigorous and severe of course to show that you care about this crisis. But it also has to be ineffectual and destructive to show that your political opponents don't care. Anybody capable of cool and rational thought is of course by definition an opponent, at least if they do it in public. And the more impossible the mess you create, the better; the only effective responses must be so painful that your opponents dare not speak them. Then you can say, "They don't care, they don't have any solutions, they won't take the vigorous actions I do."
And nobody can point out the pointlessness and hopelessness of your actions, and survive politically. In a crisis, the public hungers for great leadership. That's not you of course, but the illusion is cheap to manufacture, or rather the price is paid by others and you don't care about them.
A wise old leader I knew once was fond of saying, "The Chinese ideogram for 'crisis' is made up of the characters for 'danger' and 'opportunity'. Bear this in mind: with careful husbandry, a moment of crisis can be nurtured into a nearly permanent state of emergency. At least you should be able to prolong the crisis long enough for you to carry out any hidden agendas you might have, provided you are sufficiently bold, callous, and shameless. Of course it goes with out saying you must be smart enough to keep your janisseries out of legal trouble until your dirty work is complete. Those to stupid for that get what they deserve: the contempt of both the idealists and the realists.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
May I also point out noone ever goes 'postal' in Europe
Can you find a recent news article where this happened in North America?
The whole "postal" thing was a very, very few people a long time ago.
I wonder how much of this racial divide is linguistically driven? It's true that muslims will maintain the arabic language generations into a new country. The muslims believe though that the only way to understand the Koran is to read it in arabic.
While I'm confident that arabs will pick up the second language of the country in which they live, they will revert back to arabic for all personal communications. It is closer to their heart and I think it will always be the brick wall other cultures face in relating therewith.
I'm no expert, but I would wildly guess that there is no other religion so closely tied to a language of exclusivity. (hbrw maybe?)
France "rejects" these people he says , and by way of proof he offers
up the fact that they don't have good jobs or are no in the cabinet.
Perhaps , the truth is that not many of them have the education or
ability to have good jobs. Its the same in the UK where certain groups
whine on about discrimition against ethic groups , until you have to point
out to them that hindus, sikhs , chinese etc are all doing very well
thank you. Certain minority groups simply won't admit that its THEIR fault
they're doing badly , and contrary to what they may think or want , society
does NOT owe them a living.
The issue IS about religious freedom, this point being about freedom FROM religion. The Joe-average french person usually see religious matters to be private, and best kept to yourself. This of course causes problems with people with a different background-culture about religion.
And the Joe-average American feels the same way. Tell me, how does somebody wearing religious clothing force you to adopt their faith? I see Muslim women in full dress with veil quite often -- and I don't even live in a major city (Binghamton, NY). And guess what: It doesn't bother me! How does it even remotely impact me?
In any case, the law was totally directed at Muslims. Did they make it illegal for a Catholic priest to wear his collar? For some reason I think not.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Destroying property Correct, thousands of cars and tens of buildings were set afire
Raping None reported. And god knows that if there were only rumors, far-right would cry it out loud
killing people Zero rioters killed. Zero policemen killed. One (and probably two soon) innocent bystanders killed (which is in the average criminality for a quiet week)
Number of shots fired during the first week : 4. (I didn't followed the events during the second week where I knew there has been shotgun shots in one suburb, without killing people btw)
I believe that what is called "riots" here would be called "life as usual" in America. The only spectacular events are the arsons, which are inacceptables, I agree.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
First point for not having the twin towers in the first level. Because of memory they ended up making the background use only half of the landscape, which did not include the shot of the twin towers.
Makes me want to play the game again.
Perhaps these bloggers should consider a change of venue. Say to one of the indymedia sites or the general purpose blog sites like LiveJournal. While LJ would likely comply with a court order, coming from a French (in this case) court would likely be delayed while it was examined etc etc.
Being based outside the country you currently reside in has some usefullness.
Also, it is good to see that, despite living in economically depressed areas of France, they are able to get online at all.
As far as the (US) media coverage of the French riots, I agree, it's been almost all about the damage being done and very little about what they were angry for. I had to ask a friend who is a French national what in the would they were rioting for.
Her response was interesting, mainstream France does not harbor any noticible racism for black Africans. They have been and continue to be integrated into mainstream french society. The flare ups have been towards more recent north african immigrants who happen to be majority arab & muslim decent.
Like elsewhere in the would, people look for scapegoats whereever they can, in this case the more recent immegrants consume french health care and public assistance resources but are not far enough along in integrating (or refusing to integrate) to start contributing taxes and the like to make up for the difference. With unemployment being high in specific parts of France this can lead to problems etc etc.
I can't speak to if there is really any intentional discrimination of anybody. This was all from a 40 YO mother who is more in the world of shopping for dinner at x+3 shops and driving an SUV than anything else.
Paris (APi) - In a stunning development, the french government has decided to end the conflict and surrender to the rioters currently causing minor problems in various french cities.
The rioters immediately re-established the Vichy government and appointed "Chuckles DeGaulle", grand-nephew of Charles and noted mime to head up the new government.
While not condoning blogs that incited violence, he said that there was a lack of media coverage explaining why ethnically segregated inhabitants of some of France's poorest cities have been driven to riot.
Even after all the terror and carnage muslim "leaders" still give tacit approval to terror. Such people should be deported without a second thought. I hope the French authorities beat the tar our of these miscreants.
an ill wind that blows no good
"I came up with a variety of links where, unsurprisingly, wikipedia was the most definitive on the subject. It's basically about unfair or otherwise misbehaving authorities coming down on black muslim youth."
If that's what you learned from Wiki, you must mean "one-sided", not "definitive". Nothing about Wiki suggests objective coverage of an event; in fact I'd say the nature of Wiki discourages objectivity.
I suggest you broaden your research to include sources not dominated by a narrow, vocal demographic.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
So how is it that it is not happening in Northern Europe, with way stronger "nanny states"?
Flip: Flop:So, you are accusing the French of doing exactly what you do in the next line—regarding Africans (someone else has already pointed out they are more correctly Arabs) as untermenschen.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
This is honestly not a troll, I don't want to start a flame war, but whenever I read stuff like this coming on the heels of editorials by media pundits about how France is a model of what America ought to strive for, I thank God that the people who believe this aren't in power. I'll take today's America over today's France. America's first Republic has endured for 200 years. France's falls apart, historically, about once every 40-60.
"I have never won a debate with an ignorant person." -Ali ibn Abi Talib
Being in the same situation I can vouch for the accuracy of the comment.
Another thing that the Americans could do is count the corpses. How many dead people our little civil war left dead? What? Less than any night in a typical US city. Another exercise is to put a cost on the riots, you'll see it has been avoided to burn anything of real value...
Unless these people are being illegally denied representation in government, I honestly don't give a flying flip about why they feel "driven" to violence. Democracies have mechanisms for peacefully airing grievances; if you can't convince others of your position, you can't get what you want. End of story.
Bandannarama
I just watch on the news: Another riot in france... but I see no political analysis on this thing. Why the riots? Who are those people?
Of course, 10 tons of flax will do it for anything. But I was making a reference to the French movie Ma 6-T Va Cra-cker (literally, "My City Will Crack"). One of the main story in the film is a large riot with plenty of burned cars and molotovs in a Paris suburb, caused by the death of a teenager by the cops. It was made in 1997. So even in '97, the situation was similar to today's. Nothing has changed.
All Hail Discordia. Hail Eris. Fnord.
This is not true.
Until about a decade ago most EU countries gave you nationality/citizenship if you were born in that country, regardless of parents nationality etc. Definitely the UK was like that until quite recently. France certainly doesn't have that rule at least since early nineties - in practice most children of immigrants got french citizenship, but the right wasn't automatic.
Now citizenship cannot be acquired automatically through birth in any EU country. Ireland was the last to get rid of the right one or two years ago. Apparently since they were the only country in the EU to still have it, and since it's now pretty easy to travel anywhere in the EU if you have residence rights in one EU country, they were finding that lots of pregnant mothers were coming to Ireland specifically give birth and obtain EU-country citizenship for their child.
This definitely applies to the 15 'old EU' members, but i would imagine that the new member states have come in line with this since joining.
my password really is 'stinkypants'
There is wide spread discrimination in France. If you are from African origin it is harder to find a job. However, this does not explain everything. I went to school (in France) were about half the pupils were arabs. Not one of them was doing any homework or having any interest in learning anything! This was staggering! This is a cultural problem. These kids' parents were simply not telling them to work hard, some parents were telling their kids it's pointless to go to school. How can you explain that the police arrest some 14 years old rioters at 2am? The parents don't give a shit about their kids. Obvious this not the case of all arabic parents, but in my experience, it is prevalent and really sad.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
Yes, they would force him to remove his collar when he attends a public school. The law also banned crosses, skull caps and any other religious clothing. The French govt. is secular so any public service should and needs to be seperated from religion.
here in the US. The bigger problem is whether audiances and authorities really WANT to face the problems behind the pictures CNN can show us.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
This Laicité Law is appliable only in _public_ schools and colleges.
It was not intended to strip ones liberty of faith, but rather put everybody on the same level : no religion (quite) no differences. See it like the UK uniform tradition. Religion being an important matter, it aims not to bring possible 'tensions' at school.
Speech is just speech until someone acts on it. Can it be any more clear? I know we can't all be people who think for themselves, but it's sad and even offensive when law is written presuming that we can't, in fact, think for ourselves... further, it might not be too far to say that such law even attempts to make illegal independant thought.
France is a democracy. We voted to have this law, to be able to put people who says that jews should be burnt in jail and to prevent them from shouting that in the front of high schools. If these laws become abused, the parliamant will change them. I don't think that these laws serve specific interest. Here when some big guy want to prevent some small guy from expressing themselves, they either use laws on trademarks (on brand names or logos) or diffamation laws (slandering ? in english ?) From what I know, these laws were always used in their original intent.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
How many of the immigrants are citizens? And what are French laws on who is allowed to vote?
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Hey. That's skyblog. "killering cops (settin' faya on zem)" is translation that is more respectful to the orginal and its author grammar skills.
Jokes on skyblog aside :
- On one hand : Yes. They weren't expressing opinion but asking very bad and painful thing to be done on police officers. They have to be arrested and judged.
- On the other hand : From here (switzerland) Nicolas Sarcozy and some of his idea look scary. This could be a step closer to the supression of freedoms (article 18 and such). So *very close* attention must be paid that these people are correctly handled, are properly judged according to laws, and that every other person who gets arrested is only because of hate speach and ecouraging murders and never because of expressing opinion.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
How many riots did the United States have during the Great Depression?
When you say bad things about muslim immigrants from north africa (we must be specific, for instance oriental or non-muslim india immigrants do far far better. African non-muslim blacks are practically white the moment they hit european soil.
You will get the claim that your a nazi. Yet who were the nazi's. They hated jews obviously, not much for gay rights either. Women were there to produce the master race. Mmmm, now lets see muslims, hate jews, hates gays and hate women rights.
I think we got a new extreme right in our midst and many bleeding heart liberals can't see it. They will defend people who represent everything they are against just because a non-white person could not possibly be a racist.
Whenever a muslim makes a claim about Iraq/Afghanistan/Israel being an attack on all muslims ask him about Dafur or Sudan or repressed groups in every single muslim country.
You had huge riots when some american soldiers destroyed some modern copies of the islam. When afghanistan destroyed ancient budhist statues not a single muslim cried out.
I am no longer willing to defend those who never fight for someone else.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Just go visit Democrat Underground or Daily Kos. You will find many articles that discuss violence against authority and the death of our President and Vice President. Heck Air America Radio between fundraising breaks and stealing money from poor children has had several commentators advocate the assassination of our President.
I am always amazed at the shouts from the left that they are being "oppressed" in this country. I am going practically deaf from their oppression. Its like a Monty Python sketch. If you want to see truly speech oppressive societies, just look at Europe and their numerous speech codes/laws.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Is it sliming when I say the U.S. president lied about WMD
When did he lie about WMD? Unless you are one of thoses that believe that they knew that WMD did not exist at all; unlike the rest of the world.
responsible for all the civilians being slaughtered there
So Bush is responsible for loading people up with explosive and having them walking into restaurants and then blowing themselves up?
Or that Americans are no better than the Sunnis that ran Abu Graib?
well except for the US arrested thoses that did anything of that nature, and even what they did was not close to standard practive when the sadam ran the place.
What is wrong with you moderators? How is the parent flamebait? Who is he or she flaiming by poiting to a discussion group where people regularly bash Bush and Cheney to illustrate his point that sites that do so are not automatically taken down by the US goverment? You mod's are a joke sometimes?
Two days ago a kid shot up his school in Tennesee. Oh, you mean RECENT. I guess there's nothing then.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Any time you've got a large number of unemployed, young males you're going to have wars, riots, genocide, etc.
What a joke... Maybe their parent were, althought many black Africans are Christian/Animist. But anyway most of those whose parent were Muslims are alcohol drinking, pork eating and certainly not mosque going. In fact, many imams (muslims clerics) in France edicted fatwas (religious orders) strictly prohibiting any riotting.
They are just kids with nothing better to do and the first days lax law enforcement gave them the very clear lesson it was possible to burn things and not being caught. And since it must be quite fun we get that result...
I agree, and I think they should start with Nicolas Sarkozy, and then move on to a generation of French politicians who let this kind of unrest develop.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
It didn't make a lot of sense in the LA riots, either.
What this shows is that rioting is an emotional activity, not a logical one.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Hmm... clearly you do not live in Europe...
because soon the US will have to send the boys like in 1917 or 1944 to help the French !
Google passes Turing test : see my journal
The example you cite (the well-trodden headscarves controversy) is an imperfect example of the situation, but worth discussing. The explicit motive for the headscarves rule was to maintain secular governance. This is known as separation of church and state in the US (where it is routinely ignored by our reborn President). This notion is a pillar of liberal and republican dogma, and has nothing to do with religious intolerance or supremecy of one culture over another. The point is that all cultures are treated the same under the law. This is an exceedingly fair and commendable policy, IMO. (Set aside the argument that Christians still wear their crosses, as there's a legitimate apples/oranges argument there.)
The problem is that fairness is a two way street. Even if the French policy is fiar, the Muslims who is applies to have increasingly less tolerance for other cultures, including the traditional French culture, and believe in their own cultural supremecy. In light of this, the otherwise fair policy of the French government is rendered absurd and unsound. Egalitarian policies make no sense when they aim to protect the interests of avowed supremecists.
It is this undercurrent of supremecy which has festered in the warm waters of France's rational adherence to policies that validate multiculturalism. It is this same undercurrent that is driving the riots.
There is no excuse whatsoever for the riots. NOTHING gives these stupid assholes an excuse to burn schools, day care centers, sports centers, private homes, cars, and even people (a handicapped woman was doused in petrol and set alight by these mongrels).
... but with Algerians and especially Maroccans there's always shit. High crime rates, hardly ever want to work, etc... May they all turn into pigfeed in their next lives.
They should all be sent back to their countries of origin (even if they do have French nationality, then send them back to the country of their parents/grandparents/ or whatever).
Muslims have no place in Europe.
The alleged reason for this riot was because two idiots electrocuted themselves while hunted down by the police. If two criminals (however young they are) electrocute themselves, it's something to celebrate, not start a riot over.
After day two the French authorities should have given the army the opportunity to restore order in those cities. Or the French Foreign Legion if they want to be politically correct.
If I sound harsh, it's because I'm fed up with these lazy bums ruining Europe. We don't ever have a problem with black people, asian people, american people,
Exactly which political pundits are these? France has twice the unemployment rate of the US, lower GDP per capita, and their healthcare workors go on strike about once a year. Who in recent times has ever advocated that the US model itself after France?
it wouldn't be so sad if what your write isn't actually true in the third world, supporting our wealth ...
Why the people are rioting, violent protest is not a solution and as such should not be treated fairly by the media. Its harsh, but their point would be better served if they could collect nonviolently. Resorting to violence is an emotionally charged, illogical approach to problem solving. I'm mad at my current living situation, so I'm going to burn down 'my own neighborhood', i've never understood the logic in that, and cant bring myself to try to reason with a person who thinks that way.
Kent Simon Multitheft Auto
When was the last time Chirac blamed his country's social problems on Bush? When was the last time Chirac was even really at odds with Bush over anything other than the Iraq war and possibly WTO trade rulings?
How can you be so blindly jingoistic that as soon as a country disagrees with ONE policy of your government, you automatically decide that they are evil?
It was not intended to strip ones liberty of faith, but rather put everybody on the same level : no religion (quite) no differences. See it like the UK uniform tradition. Religion being an important matter, it aims not to bring possible 'tensions' at school.
It doesn't strip your liberty of faith to not be able to wear the items of that faith when you attend public school? I presume that school is mandatory for all children in France the way it is in the United States?
Such a law would never survive a court challenge over here. It would never even get passed in the first place.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
france is not alone -- america has its own race riots.
the los angeles riots in 1992, fer example...
j
The perception of the "man in the street" and several national newspapers here in the UK is that Asians and Eastern Europeans are *entirely* reliant on the state. This is not of course true, but is about as valid a viewpoint as yours.
-Eric
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I flew over the comment page and read many of them though not all of them, and I didn't see any French replying to this, so I figured out it'd a good idea to reply. I could tell you guys what I think it is happening here, in our beloved country. As many of you have stated, France built housing projects for the poorest people to live in, and immigrants and their descendance had no other choice than to go live there. Though, in France, when you're down there, you sort of get stuck down there and you can't really expect the same opportunities as the "less poor" people living in houses. It is hard to explain, but these people slowly built their own communitity, they've been cast apart by the rest of us French and ignored for too long; now they're called scum. Wouldn't you be pissed that, not only do you live in housing projects and can't get a job, but you also are ignored by the country ? People living there have a stamp mark on their faces, and are considered as troublemakers. And we can't say that it's about religion or the fact that they came from foreign countries, because white French boys live in those places: they're rioters too. Religion as little to do with all this. Have you people seen the movie "La Haine" - the American title is Hate" - by Matthieu Kassovitz ? It is exactly the same thing, EXACTLY the same - The police injures a young immigrant from the suburbs while interrogating him. He later dies . - This event sparks riots everywhere in Paris suburbs. - The police is everywhere. - Cars are burning. The riots, the burning cars... this is not the point. The point is that the youth have nothing else to do than to fuck around everyday, do drugs, and deal with policemen. The police and the youth hate each other. The only thing they can do to get attention from the whole country is to set it on fire. And that's what they did. La Haine was shot in 1991; we're in 2005, the situation did NOT evolve.
Europe is a big place. Here in the UK there is a disproportionate number of Asian imigrants (& their sons & daughters) who own businesses. Many Asian imigrants are well off. They've integrated releativly easily and have improved British culture.
Just because France can't get over the fact that some people are not French does not mean the whole of Europe has the same problem.
It was not. Catholics kids cannot wear big crosses (then you'd ask : "what's 'big' ?", the answer would be : anything you can see), and same for Jewish kids about a star of david, and same thing for any other religion. The main problem here would be that such "religious signs" for Muslims tend to be more visible than the christian equivalent (using those two as an example here, it could apply to many other religions), so yes Muslims are more affected, but it doesn't mean they're the only target of this law.
Really? So a yarmulke is equally illegal? I stand corrected -- it wasn't targeting Muslims -- it was targeting religious minorities. That's so much better.
Are the French people as a whole so afraid of other cultures that they don't want their kids to look at a piece of religious jewelry or clothing? You are really making me glad to be an American.
No, because the law doesn't make it illegal for a muslim woman to wear a hijab, or a Sikh man to wear a turban in the streets either.
Just in schools, right? Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you justify it or how you limit it. Will they have separate water fountains and bathrooms for them next?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Indeed, but it was the whining against the european social model that angered me, and the unsupported claim of 50% unemployment.
Socialism is not communism, for crying out loud.
Our INS people randomly stop people all of the time to see if they have green cards. There is no outrage because it rarely happens in places where people are "outraged" by this happening. How do I know this? Texas peace officer for 5 years. I worked with INS on a fairly regular basis. Police officers ask civilians for their ID at almost every encounter without starting massive riots.
The ban on religous headwear was not and is not a case of the muslims being "singled out" or discriminated against. In France you "are" French before you're anything else and it's not like crosses or stars of david get an arms wide open welcome in schools while muslim head coverings are banned. If you immigrate to a country (any country) the onus is on you to comply with the laws of that county. You are also going to find that your success or failure in that county is directly affected by the level to which you integrate into that culture. That's just unavoidable no matter who's country you're talking about and what culture you're coming from.
Now everyone who disagrees with me (and who has mod points) go ahead and mod me down.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Kids are students at schools, they are not employees.
I think people should watch a film called la haine to get some type of concept of what things are like out in france.
e tails&id=457131&query=la+haine
the film was banned in france because it was so truefull about what type of stuff goes on.
how ever the film is not fact it is fiction.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113247/
http://torrentspy.com/directory.asp?mode=torrentd
I'm lovin' it!
The Muslim population needs to get out of France. Think how the Arabs would react if 6 million white people decided immigrate to Saudi Arabia.
Yes, they would force him to remove his collar when he attends a public school. The law also banned crosses, skull caps and any other religious clothing. The French govt. is secular so any public service should and needs to be seperated from religion.
Yes and if the teacher was forcing his students to wear Jewish skullcaps or Muslim veils then you'd have an argument. Separating religion from public service does not mean that you have to force anybody who is using that public service to remove religious items.
What's next? Will you ban skull caps on public transportation? Will you ban them in airports? What if I need to visit a French consulate? I'm a friggen Atheist and I am still appalled by this law and the fact that people are actually defending it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Clarification for US readers: I believe that in the UK "Asian" usually is what the USA thinks of as "Southeast Asian"; India, Pakistan, etc. (That is, when we think of it as an overall region)
In the US, an unmodified use of "Asian" generally means Japan, Korea, China, etc.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
A few months ago on BBB World Service I heard a story about a new study being done in Great Britain which supposedly showed that in GB, Korean immigrants are among those immigrant groups that perform the worst. Sorry, I have searched Google and the BBC website for a while, but couldn't find a reference.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
And Denial that will prevent it from being solved. That "bogeyman" is real and denying its existance because of political correctness will only make the problem get worse.
It is being "spun" in European press as much as it is being spun in the US press. Fact is you will find most of those who are at the center to be Muslim. Name the other dominant religon of Arabic speaking people which the papers DO claim these rioters are?
I was listening to this interview with a Mr. Jaques Myard by NPR's Renee Montagne, and I was absolutely apalled to hear how some in France view this situation. The primary point that Mr. Myard tries to get across - in a manner that would scare the American Right Wingers - that the problem is not one of unemployment or race, but rather an issue of order and respect. It is absolutely frightening that these people are in power, if you ask me.
"How like you to drag your keyboard to a gun fight." - Aaron Bedard (BANE)
1) The rioters are not illegal aliens. They are second and third generation French citizens.
2) They are not segregated by choice. They are segregated by poverty.
3) They are not unemployed by choice. They are unemployed because of the structural discrimination made possible by French labor laws and pervasive xenophobia.
4) Look, it's what happens when a culture doesn't insist that immigrants conform.
Perhaps the most incorrect assertion out of the many in your post. France has produced a hard edged integration policy - as in no multiculturalism, no affirmative action, nothing that would acknowlege immigrants as different from other French and therefore requiring special government help. The policy has gone far enough as to infringe on personal freedoms (ie no head scarfs) in a way that would not be possible in America.
May I also point out noone ever goes 'postal' in Europe
I'd say that there are a ton of people in France going postal right now...
How could a law possibly concern "violent speech"? It might as well address suspicious bathtubs, tall emotions or purple numbers.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
...since France trashed Algeria for so long. Nothing's ever so simple, is it?
Four hundred years ago.
It was called "L'encyclopédie".
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
"Think of how many violent acts are carried out here in the USA because someone was "driven" to it? People seem to be "driven" by everything these days; alcohol, work stress, abusive parents, rap music, video games... everything except the most important element: CHARACTER FLAWS."
And copyright violaters are DRIVEN to download movies, music, games, and books because of...
1) Government.
2) Corporations.
3) That guy down the street that told me not to pirate.
NOT DRIVEN because they have no respect for anyone other than themselves, or desire possessions in order to be happy.
I say transmigrants because many (far from all, but definitely many) have no intention of adopting the language, culture or values of their new country. merely creating a defacto colony in a new territory.
If you don't want to learn the language of a country then don't move there! Hello, McFly!
Learning (and accepting) the culture is something different as it may clash with your values, but a basic communication should be necessary. I believe in Australian it's a requirement, with the exception of that you don't have to learn if you're 55 years old or older.
You're just bringing extra hardship on yourself if you don't and you shouldn't be surprised when you're alienated.
Here in Canada there are actually many inexpensive (and free) classes on learning Engligh (and French I believe). Some are sponsored by the government while others are run by volunteer and non-profit groups. Many of the people obviously won't be fluent, but at least they'll be able to ask which aisle the toothpaste is in and where the bathroom is at.
The issue, as always, is more complicated
I live in France and know pretty well the psychology of these people, it's not complicated at all, sorry, it's actually pretty simple.
What you have are immigrant population from French colonies in North Africa who have entered France through their weaker immigration laws
Actually, France needed cheap labor at the time, and promised them work and home. So they came. Reality was hard work and cheap home.
The French are traditionally very nationalistic, and the immigrants were discriminated against and were not assimilated into mainstream cultures. Secondly, the middle-eastern culture itself is very prideful, mainly becase of their religious practices and family customs. The net result was that the immigrants self-segretated themselves into comminities of like-minded peoples
Nonsense. These people, with their hard work (far from their work location), just had no time to do anything other than work. When you're exhausted, it's way harder to integrate yourself (learn the language or educate your children). Immigrants were not self-segregated, they were all put together in the same cheap apartments.
So, the dominant european ethnics (through prejudice) resisted their assimilation, which had the net result of limiting the earning potential of the middle-eastern ethnics
Still true today.
The immigrants resist learning the French language and culture, and because of French law, are denied representation in their governments
Nothing to do with the law, it's a false secret, but access to high education is greatly influenced by where you live, which is greatly influenced by your income. It's nothing like the USA here in France, even for jobs and how they are paid.
When the government does try to "help" them with social programs, their culture see it as insulting / condescending
That's not true. They ask for more.
The net result of this is a hatred of a government that is constantly trying to patronize them and force them to give up their heritage
This is completely wrong. They have no more hatred for our government than other citizen. The problems are well known and here, it is the police forces. See the movie "La Haine" to have a good vision of what the problem is with some police forces (think Rodney King).
So, these neighborhoods tend to have less governmental police prescence than other suburbs of Paris, which tends to lead to more criminal elements
Not true either. Number of police force is dependant on your wealth and popularity (so, given what I said above, where you live).
It had gotten so bad, representatives of the federal government of France were claiming that they would "clean up the scum", which didn't go so well with the locals. In the latest chain of events, there were two youths who were fleeing police, hid in a utility station and accidentally electrocuted themselves. The immigrant cultures see this as police brutality & oppression, something denied by the authorities.
Don't know what USA TV relay, but this is all backwards and partly false.
Everything started when 2 youths died in an utility station. Still no riot. We DO NOT KNOW for now what actually happened. Accident ? Not sure. Pursuit by police ? Not sure. We don't know. But the day after this tragic accident, the very well-known president candidate Sarkozy (for now, think he is Chief of Police) makes a huge mistake. Without any prior investigation, he says : "police was not responsible for the death of these youths". When you know how the people having the same life of these youths think, what they endure, and the fact that these youths never did anything bad in their life, you can immediately see the riots coming. And that's what happened. Bad guys who love to burn and break things go in the middle, they are encouraged by TV which report they deeds, count the number of cars they burnt.
Others in other towns see that, and eve
I almost spit out my half eaten starbucks scone while spewing cofee out of my nose.
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Now they know how it feels to live in Detroit!
In most of the EU, being born in one country gives you automatically the nationality of this country (this is not the case for Germany, though).
Is this really true? I was under the impression that most European nations leaned towards jus sanguinis -- you can claim citizenship if your parent was, at the time of your birth. Sometimes it is qualified with that your parent(s) must have been citizens and resident in the country at the time of your birth (they can live abroad, but must not have emigrated). In the Americas, jus solis is more common.
In countries whose majority people are scattered in other countries, you can often claim citizenship based on being of that ethnicity, a jus sanguinis taken to the extreme.
Well, considering the examples of impartial news coverage some of Us channel offers, I find it intriguing...
... LOL ? the "american melting pot" is what you could call an utter failure, like a marketing plot that backfired. Mixity was a taboo until a few years ago, and is now paid lip service by the wasp community. pull the other one, it has WMDs on it.
I mean, no riots from the muslim population ?
Well, they have been shackled to Fox News and on tape from the FBI since 9/11, have lived in a state of terror since the muslims have been declared a source of evil and Petrol, and cannot even burp too loudly on fear of being burned to the cross by the all too sensitive NSA surveillance system...
So, yes, they don't riot. But it's just because they are too afraid to...
"And it's not just about economics either my friend. I don't see Mexicans/Latinos rioting in the United States when they come here to seek their fortune and don't find it. We embrace other cultures and assimilate them into our own. A lot of other countries just reject them outright."
ahem
Strangely, I saw them riot a few years ago (Los Angeles ?), then I saw them suffer a few years later (New Orleans - Americas New Wetland) just as I saw them persecuted a long time ago (blacks segregation ? KKK ? Ghettos ? list too long to complete here, feel free to add your own examples)
"We embrace other cultures and assimilate them into our own"
ROFL ! Errata - should read "We embrace other cultures and assimilate them TO our own"
-> started with the indian reserves killings, and finished with a MacDonald on the Red Place. In between, mass murder, wars, assassinations and gross misbehavior.The only part about assimilation the US know about seems to be the part reading "Resistance is futile"...
That was the Anonymous Bitch Rants and Rave. I don't have to agree with you, and mostly I don't. Good day to you, my imperialist friend.
This is a very good article on some of the reasons behind the rioting
No this is not. The true reason is that 2 innocent youths died during a police intervention, and the "chief of police" said the police had nothing to do with it the day after.
When you are one of those people, enduring bad treatments and discrimination from police, and you hear that, you think : "now the police can kill us and go away with it with a poor excuse or a lie".
That's this fear that started the riot. IMHO the rest is fueled by political groups that jumped on the occasion.
" Its the same in the UK where certain groups
:)
whine on about discrimition against ethic groups , until you have to point
out to them that hindus, sikhs , chinese etc are all doing very well
thank you. "
You're comparing France to the UK? Ouch!
Seriously, folks from the sub-continent or east Asia have been in the UK "forever," simply because the British established their rule in those parts of the world a very long time ago. The Chinese and Indians are bound to be more accepted simply because both the indigenous population has become acclimated to their presence and the established immigrant population has adapted reasonably well to being hyphenated Britons. It's a whole new ball game for new transplants and new communities, who can't rely on old-timers to bridge the lingual and cultural gap.
It's similar to what we saw in 1992 in Los Angeles; the black population was fairly well established and spoke English, while the Koreans were seen as newcomers and had the habit of speaking a foreign language to each other.
"society does NOT owe them a living."
Don't forget we're talking about a society that came in under arms, planted a flag, and told the Algerians "Congratultaions, you're now all French." We may have been real bastards in the Philippines, but we weren't half the bastards the French were in North Africa; really, we're talking about the country that forcibly re-conqured Indochina at the same time we granted the Philippines independence.
Why, just last night, 50 comments were burned in a flame war!
I always find it curious that some people insist that we have to understand the 'reasons' motivating any particular group of rioters. In any sort of vaguely democratic republic where the rule of law actually holds, the only reasons to throw a riot is to light things on fire, and to completely prevent any grievances you may have from being heard in a reasonable and open forum. Peaceful protests get their message heard in the court of public opinion, violent protests only get a hearing for their means.
Some individuals who wanted to change the world (MLK, Gandhi) understood this; they never threw rocks, torched buidlings or even hit back at the police and the murders. AND THEY WON. The British left India, Jim Crow left America.
Some people, however, have failed to learn from these examples (the IRA, anti-globalization protesters, and now disgruntled youths in Paris); they throw rocks, grab guns, build and use fire-bomb launchers (Argentia protesters note: bringing a welded steel device specifically designed to accurately launch a flaming projectile at police is a good indicator that you do NOT hold the moral high ground) and what not. And this has done a great job of uniting Ireland, preventing the spread of mega-corps and allieviating poverty among immigrants in France. A lot more could be accomplished by a few thousand people sitting down in the middle of the Champs Elyse'es than by torching a million cars (unless you're a car dealer).
Its how functional societies change, adapt or lose.
"It is formally forbidden to any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone's life," the fatwa said.
. riots.fatwa.reut/
"Contributing to such exactions is an illicit act," declared the edict, which said it was applicable to "any Muslim living in France, whether a citizen or a guest of France."
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/06/france
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
When France was burning, you didn't care. All of a sudden, they arrest a couple of bloggers and it's serious business. What the hell?
[o]_O
"bunch of people of your culture (whatever that is) were displaced to"
Oh I'm sorry , I didn't realise the french government forced them to move to france. Oh wait , they didn't! So if they didn't like it they could have quite easily gone home. But they didn't. Funny that. So spare me the standard issue institutional racism rant , it so full of holes it sinks every time.
The immigrant parents could theoretically move back(1) to the original country but the second generation that was born and raised in the new country can not. They will most likely be considered foreigners in their parent's homeland, suffer descrimination, etc. Racial similarity will not necessarily help them.
(1) The original immigrants can face discrimination as well if they live abroad "too long".
FWIW, the above is not limitted to North African and Middle Eastern societies. I am a white of European descent (not French). My grandfather moved to the US when he was 20. I traveled with my grandfather on one of his visits to family in Europe. We also traveled around the country a little since I wanted to see some historical sights. In shops and restaurants I would usually speak first using broken language identifying myself as a foreigner, sometimes conversation or my credit card would indicate my ancestry was from this country. My grandfather would usually remain silent and occasionally would here derrogatory comments, this was long before Bush accelerated anti-Americanism. My grandfather was treated with mixed results. Occasionally there was a "you are an American now, you are not one of us" attitude. If he moved back to his home town he would be considered an outsider by some despite having the same race, religion, language, culture, local birth, and growing up locally. Any disagreeing opinion would be instantly discounted.
Given the above treatment in a "more tolerant" European country I could imagine having a different color, religion, or culture in the more xenophobic countries of France, North Africa, or the Middle East. While I can understand the frustration the fires are pure idiocy. I find myself becoming less sympathetic and less tolerant, wondering if the xenophobes were "right" in some ways. The historian in me wonders if this is how the acceptance of the Nazi's began. I expect neo-Nazi groups to have a spike in recruitment. These rioters have know idea how counterproductive their violence may turn out to be.
First off, I want to point out even after watching CNN, I have come to understand these rioters are rioting due to feeling they aren't being heard politically. I think people seeking for attention just say something along the lines of "Fox and CNN don't show the clear picture".
Anyway...
1) I have heard for the past couple years anti-Semitism has increased dramatically in the past few years, especially in France from the increasing Arab and North African populations. So are these the same people who are rioting?
2) I have read a few articles about the Roma and the treatment of Roma populations through Europe, which seems to be somewhat of an unspoken topic. Can anyone provide any feedback on this?
Any information would be useful to help me gain a better understanding of what's going on these days in the EU.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
North africans, and africans have a distinct accent when they speak in french and after living in france myself and money isnt as significant a problem for us as most of these people in these riots.
YET it always HAS been difficult: When you call to have a look at an appartment or house you get rejected ONLY because you sound maghrebin over the phone
And the accent is not a matter of speaking a certain way. It's just how you learn french in Algerian schools.
so Yes it is ethnical segragation.
Coding projects blog - Code Slim
Ha ha ha - what a joke. More action taken against bloggers than the perps who burned cars, churches and schools for two weeks. Seems so very "french".
The only PT Boat Journal on the web: http://www.PT171.org
They don't speak french. They speak a language which derived from the french but is not understandable by normal people (like the "french" those canadians speak, but much worse)
I know why they're pissed, and I say: fuck 'em. I'm not going to give them ANY sympathy if they're going to go around causing millions of dollars in damage, and killing people. It's like crying to try to get a lollipop. So fuck them. Deport 'em all.
Frankly this video is not representative, and btw most of what is shouted is insults towards the cops and the interior minister. I think this is akin to punks wearing svatiskas while not being nazi, great for the shock value. They certainly don't want charia who could cost them at least one hand.
Ah, but the law of unintended consequences is going to have a huge effect if you go lethal.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
What was racial about those riots?
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
Unemployment only counts how many people who are looking for a job that can't find a job. It has nothing to do with children you uneducated shit.
They don't have schools in Europe? I could have sworn it was the individuals responsibility to fit in and become a functioning part of society, not the government's.
If you want to make the interpretation of the term narrow, then you can exclude almost anything. I doubt that most people think you can "go postal" only in a post office, or at work.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Indeed they did my good sir.
They just did it AFTER there was a scandal about it.
Just before that, they were condoning and actualy helping them do it, as the US instigated the system.
And now we have "rumors" of secret US prisons in foreign countries because 'US law doesn't apply there, so no one can sue us about it'
Still feeling snotty about something ? tell us about it, we can help you shed your last illusions...
Obviously the locator service is even more to blame in endangering ACLU lawyers. Its purpose is not to find an ACLU representative (which is better done through the ACLU directly) but to make them feel unsafe in their homes.
My criticism of Info4Beer was disagreed with 2 to 1 by people of like mind to his.
Here is a link to a copy of our flame war (scroll down to the redneck picture)
My point is it isn't only overt calls to violence that must be dealt with, but oblique ones as well. I'm all for free speech, but posting people's address and labeling them as targets also steps way over the line in my opinion. I'm am not well qualified to make a judgment on what is going on in France, but we have sites in America also calling for violence in various ways and they too should be shut down. The last time I looked the definition of Assault (which many confuse with Battery) is a threat to do violence. Assault is most definitely against the law. Shutting down blogs advocating violence is not censorship, it is persecution of assault.
Letter To Iran
Then they would be terrorist attacks, not riots.
Riots =~ emotional reaction.
Terrorism =~ planned reaction.
Obviously the locator service is even more to blame in endangering ACLU lawyers. Its purpose is not to find an ACLU representative (which is better done through the ACLU directly) but to make them feel unsafe in their homes.
My criticism of Info4Beer was disagreed with 2 to 1 by people of like mind to his.
Here is a link to a copy of our flame war (scroll down to the redneck picture)
My point is it isn't only overt calls to violence that must be dealt with, but oblique ones as well. I'm all for free speech, but posting people's addresses and labeling them as targets also steps way over the line in my opinion. I'm am not well qualified to make a judgment on what is going on in France, but we have sites in America also calling for violence in various ways and they too should be shut down. The last time I looked the definition of Assault (which many confuse with Battery) is a threat to do violence. Assault is most definitely against the law. Shutting down blogs advocating violence is not censorship, it is persecution of assault.
Letter To Iran
I always wondered why would a government (any) allow so many immigrants to get in but don't know how to integrate them. Me not trying to troll but is it possible that because they know immigrants will takes a more difficult path in the new country, that they're willing to take less and do more. Whereas the 'locals' are not as willing. By the end of the day it pushes up the economy because of these willing individuals. Similar to idea of 'outsourcing'? The problem is that when immigrants compare what they got versus the local.
There were a few. Here is a brief timeline of the great depression. You can see that there were food riots in several cities, and people killed in marches on employers.
Taking a look at the comments posted and moderated highly on /. on this thread is a bit horrifying. About 80% of the comments thus far are pointing to the fact that in spite of the fact that America gets so much flack for being a general world class jack ass the american's view of race/minority relations are so much better thought out than some of our european collegues. Let me point out some of the obvious issues here. There is a consensus forming that the "immigrants" have only themselves to blame as they have insulated themselves, refused to assimilate and are just leechers of a welfare state embracing multiculturalism and more over islam is "antidemocratic".
If you replaced "French Riots" w/ Watts Riots in Chicago and "north african/immigrant communities" w/ Black people, would you be so comfortable repeating your statements? Have we after all these years come nowhere? I am not justifying what is going on there but people are burning thousands of cars and rioting that is now spreading all over europe. To not be somewhat self-reflective enough to ask how did it come to this is woefully ignorant.
Might not the idea that the two immigrant hoodlums running from the police who accidentally killed "electrocuted" themselves, might have some what less credibility being that just a few months ago, the police stalked, chased down and gunned down a brazillian immigrant at a subway stop and initially covered it up and blamed the immigrant that allegedly was wearing a coat in summer and acting suspiciously and running away all of which turned out not to be true at all and in fact was a complete fabrication?
How did did it come to this? Tell me why enforced secular humanism seems to be targeted primarily at the muslim community? Tell me about job prospects> and what the french have to do fix this problem. Tell me why the majority of people in french jails are muslim.
And most of all tell me why europe is insisting on creating 2nd and 3rd generation second class non citizens "gast-werkers" who will never be allowed to truly be "french", "german" or more generally european because being born european doesn't make you european. To understand this more clearly I am linking a comparison of citizenship laws for countries around the world. The american so called "myth" is the nation of immigrants, we are all american one. But the europeans (somewhat ironically w/ their neoliberalism) makes you be european by blood or by an arbitrary bureaucracy leading to 2nd and 3rd generation foreigners (witness Germany and the Turks). If what is now going on in france happened here, we would not hear an end to the "shame of the nation" (aka la riots), and I find it mortifying that we collectively do not have enough reflexitivity to go beyond the "they are not us, they are them and they hate us, they are foreign" mentality. And it is shameful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#20th_ce ntury
They really do mean that everyone is equal, and everyone is the same, and everyone will learn the same curriculum in every school in France at the same time of day. And there will be no special treatment for anyone in respect of membership of any group. And no mark of religious observance will be allowed in any school. This is why headscarves are banned. That's why there can be no equal opportunities programs, and no quotas based on ethnicity. There can of course be massive social programs directed at the poor and at deprived areas, and there are. It is not usually realised what an enormous proportion of the French budget goes on social spending. This is what is keeping the suburbs and their housing projects going. But no-one is being forced to live anywhere, except by individual choices of lots of people.
And, incidentally, if you live in a colonial possession, you are French. You are represented in the legislature just as if you were a departement of geographical France, you have the same government, the same schools. You are a citizen, that's all anyone needs to know. The rest is personal
Of course, the problem is, that neither the immigrants nor the native population actually feels this way, and the 18th century is a long time ago. Hence there is indeed widespread discrimination, widespread isolationism and separatism, radical Islam is a real factor. Participation in politics is minimal - though the French electoral system would make it quite easy for immigrant groups to elect representatives, there are almost none.
Its a mess all right. But it is not quite the mess it looks from the US. Its a kind of unfamiliar mess, and Lord knows how you straighten it out, now.
First off, I'm sorry for stereotyping America there. Of course you're not all like that. Quite a few of my friends are American [on both sides of the camp].
What I was trying to point out though is you can get the same violent reaction to speech anywhere. Let's keep in mind there are 62 MILLION people in France. These handful of people are a VOCAL MINORITY.
Just like the people in the middle east and palestine/israel.
Mostly I was trying to point out that anyone who writes blindly about how superior France is compared to the USA is an asshat and shouldn't be taken seriously [all while let's not blindly support whatever the USA does too].
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I assume you live in the US, as Asian or eastern european immigrants who manage to get there will be the ones who have enough money to pay for their tickets.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the situation in North America, where many poor Mexicans sneak across the US border in a desperate bid to find prosperity and many USians sneak across the Canadian border in a desperate bid to find freedom.
Some quotations from Thomas Jefferson:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did."
"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you."
It appears that Thomas Jefferson was both a theist and diest that respected the ethical system of Jesus Christ. Thomas Jefferson created his own version of the Bible from which he removed the religious dogma and other supernatural elements. It does not appear that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian or ever supported Christianity. It also appears that Thomas Jefferson was a staunch believer in a strict separation of church and state.
I doubt that most people think you can "go postal" only in a post office, or at work.
"At work" was the original context though, and the original poster was trying to say that working is better in socialist countries and he knows it because no one ever goes postal there.
"Inciting to riot" usually seems like a bogus charge to me. It takes a mob to riot, and the people in the mob are responsible for those actions. Now, if a person incites with lies, that's criminal - it's unreasonable to expect a mob to fact check on the fly. But inciting with interpretations of well-established facts, even if they're unwise interpretations, requires a ready mob to attack. Incitement on the Internet generally reaches people in their homes, with an unmatched research tool for factchecking at their fingertips. It's a copout, where the cops bust one person appearing publicly, rather than bust the rioters, who are harder to catch. Or fix the underlying grievances that make them mad, even if only through counter rhetoric to beat the inciter.
Of course, the corporate masters are secretive, compliant and lazy:
'"All I can say is that we don't comment on exactly why we shut down certain sites, which we systematically do as a matter of policy when they violate certain guidelines," [hosting spokesperson] David Roizen said. "Other than that, I can't say anything more and I don't have the time to go into it, either."'
Put your freedom under protection of government that prefers fixing representations to fixing problems, and corporations that depend on the government for business (socialism), and you'll find the freedom is not only costly, but revokable.
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make install -not war
Besides Mayonaise?
I had no idea that France was one of the most racist countries in the world until 2 weeks ago.
Blogs are nothing more or less than a communications channel. The logic behind the police action to close them down is premised on blogs being used as means of coordinating the rioters. There is nothing about blogs per se that makes them subject to special protections vis a vis other communication channels.
I've heard and read on the news reports a good number of these rioters are coordinating attacks via text messaging devices. This sounds to me a lot of pre-meditation is going on.
actually its +3 informative so far. heh,
sorry I dont have any lefty blog posts to link to off hand, but you could probably find something at TPM, Matt Yglesias, or Kevin Drum if you look. I dont read a lot of lefty blogs myself, but I've heard mostly pretty good things on those guys. I've seen a lot of different points of view over the past few days in the blogosphere. I tend to take the view somewhat similar to wretchard at belmont, that this is not intifadam its economic and social, but looking to the future, the radical islamists would be fools not to try to capitalize off of a large muslim and north african population rioting in a western nation.
"In the game of life, someone always has to lose. To me, if life were fair, that someone would always be Oklahoma." -DKR
Maybe I'm alone here, but I don't really care if they do shut down blogs that are even remotely supportive of the rioting. But part of thats because I really don't care about blogs period. I'm perfectly willing to accept their existance under normal circumstances, but when the country is burning I'll do quite happily without the half-baked, unsourced, uncorroborated and highly opinionated crap from your average blogger. If my car was torched by some of those bastards I think I'd care even less. Call me if they shut down some media outlet I can actually trust.
Make an average with your parent post: the unemployement rate in those areas is around 40%. The country average is around 11%. But this is not the whole story. The trouble is education in those areas. Most of the kids come out from college with nothing in their hands and unable to get a decent job because diplomas are key in France (which is about as ridiculous as the rest of the political class).
Thing is everyone blames it on the state, the laws, etc. But where are the parents of all those kids that supposedly "riot" outside? What I find shocking is having to have a curfew for "teaching parents how to manage their kids" (translated from the french). Education again.
But lets also realize this - this has been going on at a low level for a long time now - cars have been burnt every night for years. Just never as much as now. The French government has chosen to ignore it until now. Letting a sore fester is a good way to get blood poisoning.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
"Instead, the world repeatedly sees CNN images of burning cars and shops, he said."
Apparently this guy hasn't been watching CNN too much - I've seen several on-the-street interviews with French immigrants and Muslims explaining why so many of them are angry, and how it lead to the rioting.
I'm looking for the Thomas Jefferson quote I alluded to, and will post it when I find it.
In the meantime I'll just say this. Thomas Jefferson clearly advocated a seperation of church and state, but the problem is the term that he meant when he said "church" is not the same as what many Americans mean when they say church.
Perhaps the best way to explain this is to say that while a seperation of church and state is inherent to American gov't, a seperation of religion and state is not. Gov't should be seperated from any particular establishment of religion, but it should not necessarily be seperated from religion in general. Those who seek to outlaw the pledge of allegiance (yes, I know "under God" was introduced in the 1950's) and essentially chase God from the public view are misguided, misuse the "seperation of church and state" clause, and, as I said in my initial post - tend to radicalize.
-stormin
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
Part of it is that certain people in their community "encourage" them not to assimilate. That's the whole problem with multi-culturalism. If you don't assimilate, you don't get the same advanatages as the mainstream. Look, it's fine to be proud of your own culture and roots, but if it prevents you from working in the "normal" society then you're going to be segregated. It's like certain elements of black culture claiming that doing well at school is "acting white". You think those kids who remain "authentic" to their race are going to be employable?
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Where did this come from? France has some serious labor laws that doesn't allow child labor/12 hour days. Shoot they have a mandatory 35 hour work week. They make it so dificult to fire someone that no one wants to hire anyone - if you make a mistake there's very little remedy.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
"in France, authorities have shut down a blog called Hardcore, whose participants have allegedly violating a French law concerning violent speech. Many bloggers fear there will be consequences for them if they are outspoken, even if it is in a nonviolent way."
http://www.orwelltoday.com/police.shtml
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Equality of oportunity does not mean equality of outcome.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
said.
i never understood riots, are they burning their own schools, workplaces, cars, neighborhoods?
what change does this do except make more people like them?
Ok, that solves it, they are a zombie horde. Get the flamethrowers, some garlic, and some escargo.
The deaths are an excuse, just as Rodney King was an excuse.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Amen. At a certain point it all comes down to personal responsibility. The state cannot be responsible for you choosing to screw up you life. To a certain extent (child protective services comes to mind) it will try to keep you from screwing up your kids, but there's a lot you can do within the framework of the law.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
That is mostly irrelevant and also not quite true. The belief is not that Koran can be only be properly understood in (any) Arabic, but Koran can only be understood if you read what God wrote without any interpreter or translator meddling with the text. A translation of Koran in modern Arabic is no different from an English translation. Koran's language is different enough from contemporary arabic that even arabs has to formally study the language to study Koran. As a result, people neither learn ancient arabic to chat nor do they learn modern arabic to read Koran.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
Not that Michigan (Detroit, more recently Benton Harbor) hasn't had its fair share of riots over what could be termed "race issues".
The point not being that "U.S. is just as bad!" so much as "any country that has and fails to address significant race issues will find them coming to the surface, often as an explosion of violence". France has deliberately tried to push down any and all race issues (that being what all the head-scarf-banning was about) in the hopes that this would make them go away. *Checks news.google* Nope, haven't gone away.
I do find it interesting that the U.S. has had generally good luck accepting immigrant populations. Don't think that these populations were just readily embraced as soon as they stepped off the boat, either. Dutch, Irish, and other immigrants certainly saw their fair share of problems when they first arrived, but were eventually assimilated and peace reigned. On the other hand, we have miserable luck assimilating populations brought over as captives, with problems resulting in outraged violence continuing even to today in afforementioned melting pot of Michigan. Then again this too was a problem that wasn't addressed until it exploded into nation-wide violence.
Here's hoping France doesn't need a civil war to realize ignoring problems won't make them go away, and using censorship to fight racism is like trying to fight a volcano by capping all of its vents.
The enemies of Democracy are
The true reason is that 2 innocent youths died during a police intervention
Well, at least the world will be a safer place now that people who are running from the cops know that the Danger signs and fences around high-voltage transformers are not just decorations. They will jump in garbage dumpsters or break into houses and hide there instead.
They climbed a 10 foot wall to get in an electrical substation and were electrocuted! If this was in the Darwin awards, you'd have laughed.
a lot, asshole. Ever heard of the Bonus Army March?
... hi bingo
There's an ex-leader of the FSIN who said that he felt the Germans were good people for killing millions of jews.
He was jailed and lost the Order of Canada because of it. He's a racist native, and this pretty much ended his career.
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Started when a coupld of american teens were killed according to CNN http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/06/snn .01.html
"Hard to say because it's been 11 days since two African- American teenagers were killed, electrocuted during a police chase, which prompted all of this."
So this whole riot makes no sense.
No matter where you go, there you are.
I believe calling for cops to be burned qualifies as "intention and knowledge that it may result in their personal injury", don't you?
Basically, European hate-speech laws prohibit public expression with the potential to cause violence against a group of people. You need only very basic knowledge of history to know why that is the case.
The laws in France, and unfortunately most of Europe, are there specifically to censor the public.
Could you please be a bit more specific? I really have no idea what you're talking about. Personally, I don't feel censored at all. The press is doing fine, too.
They are there to manipulate what information gets out, hell at least in the U.S. we don't try to erase our past, instead we embrace it, unlike many European countries where you you can't write about Nazi's (even in areas where it isn't illegal, it is still frowned upon and will get many eyes from the law looking at you).
I live in Germany. In history class we went through the transition to the Third Reich, the Holocaust and WW2 three times with increasing detail as we got older. So I guess what you mean is public display of the swastica which is indeed illegal with exceptions like art and education -- what you're not allowed to do is to wear it on a t-shirt or hang a flag out of your window. What the being frowned upon is concerned, this and last year's biggest German movie productions both were about Nazi Germany (yes, including swasticas) and they ran quite successfully.
The reason for this "censorship" is of course German history. Our constitution is designed to ensure the protection of the individual and of the democratic system. The first Paragraph is "Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority." It also prohibits censorship, but the protection of human dignity has a higher priority. That is a significant difference from having Free Speech as the first amendment, of course. "Censorship" of Nazi symbols, depending on context, follows the same reasoning. Imagine you'd be a Holocaust survivor and somebody would stand in front of you and shout "Heil Hitler", or waive the Nazi flag.
Also, any political movement aiming to abolish the constituion can be ruled illegal (in practice this is only done if they turn violent or gain significance for fear of making them go underground and losing methods of control). Nazis of course fall into the anti-constitutional category.
I agree. What puzzles me is why the US administration cited the above as the reason to invade Iraq? Why they talked about nuclear weapons, ties to al Queda at all when there was a perfectly legitimate and undisputable reason at that time?
The wiki article also went on to explain that this situation has been growing for quite some time and that France's non-particiation in the Iraq war and such was likely, at least in part, related to France's domestic problem that would have undoubtedly exploded had they joined with Bush. (This brings entirely new light to the anti-French sentiment much of the US has felt... people need to know more about this and their reasons I think.)
It brings new light, but that's also a first! Never heard anything like that about France's opposition to Iraq war. You might want to remember that you read things in a Wiki. Anyone can edit anything and as soon as it sounds serious, people will trust it. There's still a debate like this going on with Wikipedia, so don't take things for granted.
French people have a tendency to support middle-eastern population much more than americans would (palestinians are a good example) and have a quite recent habit of hating war and military affairs. Given the obvious oily background and that Bush was detected as a liar soon enough, you'll understand why a country doesn't want to engage in such a war.
A man who was beaten trying to estinguish a fire and died after a coma...
This depends on the election system. It needs to provide equal representation, so that a smaller group can effectively organize. However, this may result in a small minority gaining too much power as well, when they become the balance between two bigger parties (in Germany there are examples of this I believe). Hence there is an effort to limit small/fringe/radical etc. political parties to participate.
A 30-50% unemployment locally would naturally mean a stronghold locally for a party organizing these people, but there is a lot of discrimination/racism in France and so such a party could not do well overall in the country. The result? These areas and their interests are not represented in the higher echelons of government, but let to become slums. A solution could be more power to local government. However, that has its pitfalls too as the resources could be very unevenly distributed in the country, etc.
It is not easy to devise a good election system. On the other hand France may not even be trying...
A good starting point for an efficient/fair system could be the Hungarian system (devised after 1989). It was supposed to be designed with inputs from mathematicians, it aims to ensure that the number of representatives strongly correlates with the public's support, while skewing the results towards bigger parties somewhat to allow efficient governing. (For example if 4 parties get 40%, 30%, 15%, 15%, then probably the biggest party will end up at least with half of the seats but not 2/3, this allows them to govern but not change the constitution say, while the smaller parties will have an opportunity to critique. The system also encourages coalitions in the second phase of the two-phased election system.)
You sir, miss the entire point of the post, and that is why you fail it.
The parent post was not saying one group is better then any other. He was using Kos and Democrat underground as an example of the fact we do not have the kind of speech codes that exist in europe. You want to include Freerepublic in that list? Fine, be my guest. You only bolster his point.
I am sick and damn tired of kneejerk rebuttles from partisans, when they aren't even being attacked. (And yes, I am a partisan too.) Ease up people. Drink a glass of lemonade. Smile sometime.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
many USians sneak across the Canadian border in a desperate bid to find freedom.
Speaking as an American, I go to Canada for the beer.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
There is no valid reason to restrict speech unless it presents an immediate danger and serves no valid point of discussion (yelling fire in a movie theater).
That is not the attitude any true American should have. A true American, one who truly believes in freedom, would have said: "There is no valid reason to restrict speech."
It's as simple as that.
Your point about somebody yelling "fire" in a cinema is null. If somebody doing that causes people to panic, rather than to remain calm and assess the situation for themselves (Do I smell smoke? Do I see fire? Should I walk calmly towards the exit?), then the people are responsible for any trampling that may take place.
It's incorrect to try to put a "valid discussion" constraint on freedom of speech. Either you have complete freedom of speech, or you don't. There is no middle ground. Anything that inhibits one's ability to express themselves automatically removes the freedom completely.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Detroit had its fair share of riots in the late 1960s. I'm not sure if you were born then, but I recall hearing quite a bit about it over here in England. Of course, it was blacks rather than Muslims. But they were in a very similar situation: a minority basically forced into living in the slums, without much of a future. Rioting against the established system was perhaps the only thing they could do.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
They riot because they are incompatible with the White society of France. The solution is to send them back to the land which they are compatible with. Muslimland and Negroland!
Torch a car...burn at the stake.
Think of it as Welfare if you like; only a very extensive, controlled, grey, and brutalizing one.
IMO the French model is preferable to a system that leaves a city of over 1.2 million people vulnerable to oblitteration and hundreds of people dead (I am referring to hurricane Katrina and the government's willful unpreparedness and non-response).
What I see in this discussion is a lot of posturing over political concepts, and few with the gonads to make a real comparison. If this story is just another excuse to wave the libertarian flag (which looks all-white to many, in more ways than one) then its not going to help.
It was not intended to strip ones liberty of faith, but rather put everybody on the same level: no religion (quite) no differences. See it like the UK uniform tradition. Religion being an important matter, it aims not to bring possible 'tensions' at school.
Even though the law might put everybody on the same level, it is not necessarily just to all religions. How many Christians (and atheists for that matter) did have to change their appearance or habits for that law?
No matter what its original intentions are, the law will always be perceived as a burden mostly on the Islamic population.
Canadians like to sneak across the US border for cheap booze and Indian cigarettes.
I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
The New Testament is mostly peaceful. Mohammed as a leader participated in warfare, Jesus never did.
Last time I checked, the Old Testament is referred to as the Bible, and is also accepted as part of the Christian canon.
Having re-read my comment, I note that my parenthesised footnote makes no sense. The last sentence should read:
:/
"Perfick tho' it most certainly ain't, in the UK there is at least some sense that xenophobia and discrimination are wrong."
Whoops.
iqu
Asians never seem to need assistance from the "state" nor do Eastern European immigrants. They adopt and are often the most successful members of society.
East asians you mean. Arab immigranst are atcually one of the ethnicities most heavily on the dole in Canada and they are technically asain. East Asians and Indians have too much pride and will work hard to stay off the Dole.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Speaking as an American, I go to Canada for the beer.
Fscking traitor.
Many bloggers fear there will be consequences for them if they are outspoken, even if it is in a nonviolent way.
Pfft, fears. Why don't they just wait until it actually happens and THEN post about... ooooohhhh
I know, I am just wondering how he got to 50% without including children and elderly. /. is something everyone can do. But hey, it's France, lets do some bashing and make up some numbers and blame everything on the nanny state. Perhaps unemployment is high, but not that many people are forced to live on the streets. Unlike some other countries.
And just citing a number on
It defeats the whole point of a school uniform if you're allowed to ignore it because you're in a cult. If that's the case then maybe I should have joined a cult where you have to wear trainers rather than proper shoes, but I don't think I'd have been allowed to get away with it.
Seems if you're muslim you can get away with anything because people are too scared to tell you not to, because it's not politically correct. I know that if I for instance went into a bank dressed as a ninja I'd be arrested.
Religion is an anachronism.
Even the French hate the French!
Actually, from what I've read, unemployment is more like 50%. Add to it that there is little or no represntation of the north african imigrant in the upper echelons of government, and it's understandable why there's dissatisfaction.
If there are no jobs for them, why is france letting them in? If france isnt' and the majority are illegal immigrants then france has no obligations to them.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I will have to discount the "nanny-state" part, because everything else you've said perfectly describes the race ghettos of the United States. No jobs, check. Entrenched racism, check. The US Government "telling" people where to live through economics....check (although I feel this point in particular is nothing more than a semantic game).
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
I'd mod you up if I could. The stupidity of criminals is the problem here, and the desire for people to blame someone else.
Amen. At a certain point it all comes down to personal responsibility. The state cannot be responsible for you choosing to screw up you life.
What about when nobody will hire you because you're North African? Should the state help with that?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
Okay they don't have to live on the streets, they live in self imposed ghettos instead. I don't consider that ideal either.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
A lot are native born French from imigran parent/grandparents. They were brought in originally for the low end jobs that the citizens thought themselves above (sounds like the Mexican/central american invasion here in the U.S.). They stayed and had kids that became more and more alienated from the culture. And lets admit it - there are certain elements who delibrately encouraged that alienation for their own purposes.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Yes, the government is supposed to be nondiscrimanatory - "Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité" is the motto of France after all. The fact that the French government has let this continue as long as it has is shameful.
No. I have the right to hire who I want right? At least if it's my company, and if someone delegates that responsibility to me, then they feel I can properly represent their wishes. And if I don't like you for any reason, shouldn't I have a right? If I had to choose between two equally competent white people and I picked the one I liked over the guy who rubbed me wrong it wouldn't be discrimination. But if the guy was black....
To be honest some sort of mix of the two is probably the best, but I don't think there can ever be a perfect solution.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Think of this, though. A 'good election system' would mean, in France, that the powers that be (white middle aged Frenchmen) would lose power. More minorities would gain seats.
It's not hard to see why they're not trying to change it.
No. I have the right to hire who I want right?
No you don't. You have to ignore the fact that your applicant is from Africa. This is how America behaves, and it works much better than the french system.
And if I don't like you for any reason, shouldn't I have a right?
Yeah, so long as the reason was non-discriminatory. Don't pretend that this is abstract - if you're a North African living in France, most HR drones won't even look at you, and that needs to change.
I don't think there can ever be a perfect solution.
We don't need perfect. We just need "good enough".
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
So just because that wasn't his main point, it makes it okay to lie and spread false information?
Sorry, I can't cite a link because I'm at work, and like hell I will visit either freerepublic or Democratic underground while my stats are logged. But to suggest that it is false to say that inflammatory, and indeed violent screeds do not take place on either one of those sites is foolish. Be it right or left, percieved anonymity brings out the brashness in people.
If the parent didn't want to bring partisan politics into this, maybe he shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place.
He's obviously citing something partisan, but I'm not his mammy, It's not my job to defend him, only the main point. In the US, we do not have speech codes of the like that exist in europe. Basically, in order to subject yourself to speech codes, you have to opt in, IE: Enroll in Cal Berkely.
Or perhaps he meant to argue that lying, exaggerating, and taking out of context writings from left-wingers is the only way to demonstrate free speech?
He's going with what he knows here. I'm not about to suggest that right wingers, enviros, or libertarians are immune to hyperbole. But a book was written in the run up to the election in 2004, where the subject was on assasinating a modern president. Pretty hard to take that out of context. Not only was it not shut down, it was lauded by the national press as an example of outside of the box thinking. CURSE OUR TOTALITARIAN STATE!!
I love people that say this to try and "win" arguments. Perhaps you should ease up and have a drink yourself, as you seem about as upset as anyone else here.
I'm not trying to win anything. I really do want you to lighten up. I really do want you to savor some mean barbeque while drinking a glass of lemonade. I really do want you to smile some times.
But undoubtedly, I've taken you out of context.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
First let me say you this :
I remmember a group of more violent guys from my lower classes (12-13 years old). They were blackmailing other people, they accused everybody of being racist, they forced a young girl to have oral sex with them (and went in arrest for minor), some went in prison for drug dealing, most of the rest either dead of OD or AIDS. But the bottom line is NONE of them even tryed to study (prof are racist they give me bad notes) they were thieves (supermarket guard are racist they always ask me to empty my pocket) and were quite violent (all white are racist so we have the right to kick their asses).
I do not even count the number of time I have been targeted because I had a skin a slight bit whiter and blue eyes. I nearly lost my left eyes after such an attack. And I was not a single case (one person I knew nearly lost her arm, another got kicked and punched until she gaves her jacket and shoes, and up to this day the way she reacted after I am really asking if this was the only things which hapenned).
That MINORITY of guys did not ever want to be integrated or whatever. They just wanted to be violent and have their own little local "fiefdome". All the other friend I had (non white) we never even thougth about skin, for us it was normal to have various skin color, or eye color, or hair color or taste. So do not take me on "desperate" banlieu. I was there and a lot of my friend went doctor, technician, teacher, or guardsmen, one is even recently promoted police chief. But there is this freaking minority which was always those which burnt auto, grouped in bands, and mostly raised the violence level around and always placed themselves as victim. Those are the one rioting right now.
I won't deny that some people are racist, but this is not the majority of people and certainly it NEVER justified burning car , or attacking innocent people. All those rioter wanted was an excuse to let their violence and they got it. Aynthing else would have done.
As for the blog being closed, well there is law against incitation to violence. Voice an opinion about France official being racist is OK. Yelkl that youn want the bastard policist burn down and you get it [the censure] coming at you, no shit sherlock.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Actually, I just wanted to make sure that you did not get the impression that everyone from New York are obnoxious idiots. Sure there is a sizable proportion of idiots especially in the area you mentioned but otherwise the northeast is fairly progressive which is why I assumed you were from outside the United States. Saying the war was wrong in a mall in Boston and you probably would be cheered. Also, Im sorry if I came off as sarcastic.
Yeah. It's not like it hasn't happened here in the United States. The LA riots come to mind.
Ooo man the floppy drive is broken. No wait. The computer is just upside down.
Perhaps because they aren't even allowed to wear their religious headwear to school anymore?
As a sidenote: I don't ever want to hear people slime the United States again. It's rather interesting that Muslim youth over here aren't rioting -- even though we are the ones "at war" with certain followers of that faith. Perhaps that's because we have better religious freedom?
How do you feel about that judge who displayed the ten commandments, or the Kansas school board teaching intelligent design alongside science?
I have to admit, I'm extremely ambivalent about this stuff. I went to a religious primary school, and it turned me into a committed, almost fundamentalist atheist. But it still annoys me when liberals want to stop things like this on the dubious basis of the separation of church and state. Don't get me wrong, I hate all Abrahamic religions as ideologies, but I don't want to use the law against them because that in itself would violate church and state separation. And I don't hate the people who believe in them. I've met some perfectly civilised religious people and some atheists who were utter shits and the way you behave is far more important than your philosophy.
And you're right about the US vs France BTW. It's interesting that in the UK, there were massive demonstrations against Iraq, but they were fairly peaceful. I'd say the people that supported the tube bombers are a tiny minority - much smaller than the people that supported the Ira for example, and that is because we still have a society where you can be openly, crazily religious provided that you don't incite violence.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
I'm a friggen Atheist and I am still appalled by this law and the fact that people are actually defending it.
Damn right. Allowing people to worship whatever the hell the like is what makes us athiests better these religious wackos.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
I have a french passport. My mother has one since she was 18, my
grand-parents never spoke french. I have been living 10 years abroad and
came back to France 2 years ago. What I found is a country in a
desperate condition. Poverty has increased beyond all expectations.
Salaries have not changed a bit since I left but in the mean time the
inflation got prices up by about 30%. They call it a loss in purchasing
power, I call it a country getting poorer every minute. The
technological gap between France and other countries like USA or Germany
is about 10-15 years from what I can judge.
I speak 4 languages, I am an expert in a number of IT domains which are
barely starting to show up in France, and it took me 2 years to find a
job in Paris. Same happened to most of my friends. Many of them fled to
USA or Canada. Those with families are here, unemployed with 10-15 years
experience as IT experts. National research is a joke. Scientists are
paid less than the guys picking up the garbage on the streets.
A 30% loss in purchasing power means people are saving money in every
way they possibly can. Sales have dropped about the same ratio for
music, movies (they blame it all on the Internet), but also wine, fine
food, newspapers, and everything we can survive without. Rents have gone
up like crazy, real estate is sky high and most of the population cannot
afford housing anymore.
So who suffers the most from this situation? The poor. Where are they
located? In government cheap housing places. Who are they? The same they
have been for the past 40 years: immigrants and their families, but also
people with little education. Jobs are scarce, there is not enough room
for everybody onboard. The music will stop and some of us will not be
able to sit.
What France is totaly unable to recognize is deep economic problems. The
crisis here is profound and affecting everybody, starting with people
the closest to poverty. They have started building favelas around Paris
again, they thought such a thing would be impossible but here they are.
Travel the ring once around the capital and you will see them.
Take the same people, put them in a merry situation with jobs for
everyone and money flowing around and you will see this so-called racism
disappear. Think about 1998 when France won the world football
championship. Most players are of African origin but racism was never
mentioned. This was a good demonstration of what France really is: a mix
of cultures, one that works fine.
This, my friends, has nothing to do with racism. This is the sign of a
formerly rich country that is going down the drain. What you hear is the
first ones to hit the ground, and it hurts a lot.
Mexicans never seem to need assistance from the "state" nor do any Hispanic immigrants. They adopt and are often the most successful members of society.
Definitely the best US article on France I've read for a long time.
The author is certainly better informed of the current events and the background than any other US 'journalist' I've heard of, with notable exceptions like Ted Stanger.
I live in Rennes, France. It's a peaceful city of about 350,000 inhabitants, one of the capital cities of the IT industry (it's nicknamed the Telecom Valley). Minitel, Digital TV, DSL, MP3 were (at least partly) invented there. I work in the IT industry (Digital TV). It's green, quiet and pleasant. How surprised and shocked I was today when I saw excerpts of CNN and Fox News (that so-called 'news' TV, bah) about the riots (in the cult TV show 'Zapping').
CNN couldn't even locate the cities properly: Rennes over Chartres, Paris in Champagne, Toulouse in Switzerland, Cannes on the Spanish boundary, Lyons in the middle of the Massif Central mountains, and Strasbourg in Austria! Come on guys, if you pretend to feed the world with news, at least learn to read a map!
Fox News sucked even more, talking about 'Islamic riots', amongst a torrent of anti-French hate speech. Only in the US this parody of News channel is taken seriously, us the rest-of-the-world untermenschen know this is mere Murdoch far-right propaganda. The riots have NOTHING, I tell you, NOTHING to do with Islam. It's a social problem, not a religious one. Even the not-so-moderated local Imams called for the end of the violence.
But back to Rennes. The France map on CNN was covered with fires, including one over my beloved city. Sorry but I see no fire from my windows, and I live in one of the tallest buildings. The total number of cars set on fire is about 50 over the last 12 days, compared to several thousands in the Paris area. I can tell you that, contrary to Paris (actually Seine-Saint-Denis, or 93, or Nine-Three), there is no real ghetto out there, only a excessive concentration of relative poorness in the southern district, but nothing like the 93, which is the largest in Europe. The arsonists were certainly a bunch of jerks with too much free time who tried to enter a 'competition' with other French cities. Anyway 50 is still too much for Rennes, but the city is certainly not on fire. In Strasbourg, about 100 cars are set on fire EVERY YEAR during the New Year's Eve.
So sorry but I'm fed up with the US media who can't get basic facts and make me feel like I live in the Bronx during the 80's. It's Britanny, damnit, we have 100 times less murders than an average US city. If you want facts, call me, I'll give you 10 times more facts than your so-called reporters.
Anyway, a very good article.
(BTW the French don't hate the Americans, but it's not easy everyday)
Your comment is very wrong. France is, on the contrary, one of the european countries actively pushing _for_ Turkey integration in the EU. Granted, not all french politicians agree on that and if you were to poll the population, you'd probably get a "no" vote, but Chirac at least is a strong advocate of opening europe to Turkey
While the trail did take place after all the newspaper articles the investiagation took place before.
In January of 2004 the miliary started investigations, in late April/May 2004 the newspaper and TV shows came out. Some of them even used and quoted from the military report which had been finished eariler then that.
It does beg the question on how the news companies got the pictues since the only people who had them are the people who took the picutes and the military and the military was not even was not distributing them with the report.
Arguments that poverty somehow excuses criminal behaviour are simply stupid. I live in Romania and for the money I'm making after graduating I can barely afford to rent a flat and buy food (granted I'm not a really good coder but hardly anyone is). I suppose the avarge salary here is lower then welfare in France, by those facts this country should be one huge sea of fire, but it isn't. That's because the people in France are going on a rampage not because they can't feed their famillies but becuase their societies accept such behaviour.
I know that if I for instance went into a bank dressed as a ninja I'd be arrested.
Actually, you wouldn't unless you were breaking some other law. If you were just dressed as a ninja you'd be fine. If you were carrying around a six foot long sword you might have a problem depending on local weapons laws.
My brother happens to have a pistol permit because he deals with a cash business. He can walk into the local credit union wearing his weapon and nothing happens to him.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Ah, now that actually makes a lot of sense. Interesting similarities btw.
Speaking as an American, I go to Canada for the beer.
Fscking traitor
Hey, plenty of college students go up to Canada for beer because they can legally buy and drink it there. No traitorous activity, just a student's desire for booze.
Klingon programs don't timeshare, they battle for supremacy.
As someone who was born in Paris, who lived and studied there, and being of so called "color" I can tell a few things: 1. France is racist and it's more vicious than the racism here in the US. The reason? at least in the US (except maybe for NE) people are honest and straighforward about it! In France everyone is "wonderful" until your back turns into a bleeding open wound from backstabbing! The US is far from perfect in that matter, I did notice that people are genuinely working on improving themselves and the system. Yes I am discounting a big bunch of morons but at least the process has started here. No one or country is perfect but finding a solution pass by acknowledging the problem! Post-colonial France has not reach that point and looking at the current politicians and french white people stance (from the polls) , they are not going to reach that point anytime soon. France is more likely to turn (more) reactionary, fascist like, before coming even close to acknowledging any wrong doing or responsibility! 2. Housing is indeed segragated. Segregation doesn't have to be "offical", although these days it kinda tends to become so. It's just not fully stated. Even with a decent or high income level, a non-white will have extreme difficulties to find housing elsewhere than close to or in projects. This troubling documented fact has triggered a few lawsuits so far but with no big changes in sight. Segragation is not only racial it is class based as well. But since non-white people are more likely to be poorer (they are not allowed to climb the social ladder)... guess what? 3. The emphasis has been put on arabic descent rioters... how convenient in a post 9/11 world. Truth is, the people rioting are not ethnicaly homogeneous, they are from all over the planet, including France, but they do share one thing: they are rejected from society. Listen to how the politicians caracterize the people from the projects: the minister of interior (kinda the head of Dpt of Homeland security here), Nicholas Sarkozy: "I am going to cleanse the projects (clean with a water-blast device -brand name "Karcher"-, which incidently makes the surface cleaned whiter btw)". The major of a suburb city, son of one of the current constitution founding fathers, JL Debre: "these people are not part of our universe" Talk with "regular" french people, like I did with my former business school classmates: "in these area you stop at a trafic light and you have a bunch of them coming down the light pole". "put them all in boats and send them back" (where to btw?), "Send the army with the right to shoot on sight" (not different from what people were saying about New Orleans a few months ago), "these people are disgusting, dirty, proliferating like rats"...etc How different is that from the dehumanizing statements made by the nazi about the jews, gipsys, gay/lesbians, arabic, black... before commiting some of the worst mass murder in the history of humanity. How different is that from the statements made by so many religious or ethnic extremists to justify their hate crimes? It will not go that far but that's always how it starts and it does polarized the debate. When one is categorized as such -non or barely human- in a deaf society it's hard just to raise ones hand and politely ask to be accepted! What people are asking, in a very desperate manner: burning their own cars and neighborhoods, is something very simple, something that french society as a whole has been refusing to provide to them, to their parents (recent immigrants), grand parents (post world war II reconstruction immigrants), great grand parents ("contractors" and forced labor in France and in the former colonies), great great grand parents (slaves and forced labor), something as simple as a single word: RESPECT Respect... that will be the start of the healing process. Peace.
Everything started when 2 youths died in an utility station. Still no riot. We DO NOT KNOW for now what actually happened. Accident ? Not sure. Pursuit by police ? Not sure. We don't know.
What really got me was when I read about why the kids ran from the cops. It wasn't because they feared that the cops would beat them, or rob them, or plant evidence on them, or shoot them. No, they didn't want to spend a few hours down at the station-house.
Compare that to the antics of the LAPD's Rampart Division, and the French cops look like saints. Hell, cops shoot unarmed black kids here, and we hardly ever riot. No, folks there must be tweaked up somethin' fierce for some other reason.
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Now you're assuming the French haven't got highly comparable anti-discrimination laws in place...which they do. And still there's the same institutional racism as in the US. This is not a problem that will suddenly dissapear with the right laws in place. Au contraire.
That's like saying gonorrhea is not syphilis.
It may work better but it's not perfect. There are people who feel that certain people get hired because of their skin, and enough of this happens to keep them validated. I remember working with one incompetent person and being told that he couldn't be fired because they were afraid of a lawsuit. There needs to be a middle ground.
Now I agree that America's solution is better than France's. Or at least more fair. But you are denying me my freedom of choice in order to preserve someone else right to employment. I don't think one right should be abrogated for the other. At least in theory.
Ideally we should grow as a society until the point that race based considerations never ocur to us. Then the laws will be unnecessary and no one's rights are denied in favor of another's.
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
Okay, sarcasme and /. are clearly bad combinations.
yes, you don't count children and elderly in the figures. In fact, if you are unemployed for too long, they don't even count you (at least in Belgium). So the actual numbers are usually slightly higher than the official ones.
My question, again, is where did the 50% come from. Show me some proof.
I can accept fluctuations in the unemployment figures depending on age or location. But I can not accept a figure that is ~5 times as high as the national level. At least not without proof.
So the sarcasm was: to get to a 50% figure, you surely have counted the children and elderly.
Dude, this is really a lousy day.
This is a reasonably comprehensive recap of the statements made by Bush and his administration concerning WMD in Iraq.
When a credible organization in Iraq can present nuclear weapon quantities of uranium, or working uranium enrichment facilities, or chemical weapon stocks, I'll retract the accusation Bush lied about WMD.
Given that the execution of the Iraq occupation was botched, and generated the conditions to allow the insurgency to operate so effectively in Iraq, yes, I think the coalition invaders are culpable for civilian casualties caused by the insurgents. If there were enough troops to counteract insurgent guerillas and interdict support from Iran, if there was a credible plan to withdraw from Iraq, if the Bush administration could stick to one administering one election to determine the civilian gov't, and let the elected sovereign nation determine its constitution, this site could not talk about the 27,000+ noncombatants estimated to have died in Iraq, so far. If one limits the accusations to what the US military has done to civilians, it drops to only 9,000 civilians. But that wouldn't count the Iraqis people who died of starvation, dehydration, heat stroke, or disease.
Ahh, but what about the military commanders that were responsible for supervising their subordinates? Please cite one commissioned officer who has been courtmartialed the way the enlistees have been convicted.
Well, people do seem to think child molesters aren't as bad as murderers. I can see your rationale. (Its amusing how the Dittoheads leap to support my arguments.)
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Agreed. I'm an atheist, and I think that if people want to wear articles of faith then that is their perogative. The only freedom of religion I want is freedom from religious oppression, and this is religious oppression.
Here it's easy:
If a teacher makes you pray to Bob, that's bad.
If you decide to pray to Bob, that's fine.
If the school forces you to wear religious garments, that's bad.
If the school bans you from wearing religious garments, that's bad.
If you decide to wear religious garments, that's fine.
The world still has a difficult time with secularism. Secular government doesn't mean oppressing theists. It means keeping the government as out of religion as is possible. Proactively oppressing religious minorities as a means of "protecting" them is seriously messed up.
I strongly suspect that this is the most common use case
Before ban
1. Girl doesn't want to wear hijab because it's uncomfortable and she doesn't want to wear her religion on her sleeve
2. Girl doesn't want to be called "filthy whore" or have acid splashed in her face either
3. Girl wears hijab
Post ban
1. Girl doesn't want to wear hijab because it's uncomfortable and she doesn't want to wear her religion on her sleeve
2. Girl is excused from wearing it to school because it's illegal and she gets to say "well of course I would wear it if I could..."
3. Girl doesn't wear hijab.
So whose freedom is being impinged and when?
Would it be better for the French government to arrest and throw in jail the girl's male relatives who tend to be the heavies in enforcing the hijab? You might as well get the poor girl a coffin while you're at it because there's an "honor killing" headed right her way.
In short, it's not an easy problem.
Actually, what would trip up our ninja banker in the most jurisdictions is the mask. Anything that hides your face from the security cams is going to get everybody very nervous at a minimum because it reduces the consequences for bad behavior.
"Some countries made an effort to distribute their transmigrants evenly around the country."
Canada is facing an immigration crisis. In the first half of the 20th Century our population boomed, with millions coming from Europe mostly to settle in the West. Now nearly all immigrants are to major cities, typically Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto. This leaves other provinces without many immigrants, so much so, that with Canadians having fewer babies, some places are already declining in population. My province, Saskatchewan, is sponsoring skilled immigrants to improve our workforce which has great potential in many industries including mining and goods processing. They're trying to increase the number of immigrants by many thousands more every year, but are hampered by a meticulous, and red tape ladden federal department of immigration.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Try this. They found at least one of the seven biowar trucks that Powell presented to the UN all nice and scrubbed to a level not seen elsewhere. Biological weapons programs were part of the pre-war indictment against Saddam.
Iraq has a constitution now and will have an elected government under that constitution in under two months. They've gotten it faster than Germany got theirs post WW II and certainly post WW II Japan would have wished for an Iraqi level of input (ie most of it) in writing their Constition. The Japanese Constitution was dictated in english and translated (somewhat badly) by the occupying army.
Has the US made mistakes? You bet, they have and we should and do regret every one. Human beings make mistakes. That doesn't mean that we're responsible when the other side straps explosives to a Down's syndrome kid and points him down the street, hopefully to explode with lots of other casualties.
The military has given up counting the war crimes these guys in Al Queda and the Sunni groups do. They think nobody cares. I care. You should to.
Try applying that to minors, the mentally incompetent, and the very intoxicated. Not everyone can judge.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
In Baghdad.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
"What ever happened to Crazy"!!!!
Chris Rock
s/this kind of unrest develop/all the wogs in/
True about the transmigration/colonisation thing. Europeans these days aren't very inclined to be pro-active at advancing the cause of their ethnic groups(you know, tribalism), maybe WWII has something to do with this, maybe it's just "enlightenment and equality" as told by socialism, but the immigrants sure are taking advantage of it, and the breaking point is approaching. Also, when a political party is in power that traditionally gets a high majority of immigrant votes, it's funny how they "champion the cause of refugees" or "help the economy grow" by raising immigration quotas, pure gerrymandering (yes I'm talking to you canadian liberal party!) .
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
How do you feel about that judge who displayed the ten commandments
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that. I definitely disagree with my friends at the ACLU when they make Federal cases out of the Pledge or Nativity scenes in public squares. Heck, even as an Atheist I'd rather see Christmas as a religious holiday then the massively commercialized greed-fest it has become. Regarding the judge though -- I'd probably side with them (ACLU/et. all) on this one. A town square is a common public area -- a courtroom is an instrument of Government and as such should be free of religious influences. In any case he definitely crossed the line when he refused to obey the lawful order of a higher court. For a judge that's pretty shameful.
or the Kansas school board teaching intelligent design alongside science?
That I have a serious problem with. The keyword in your sentence is "alongside". If public schools want to teach creationism (that's what it is -- ID is a marketing ploy) then it should be taught in the context of theology -- not science. I recall spending an entire semester on theology and the study of the big three (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) in High School. That would be the correct forum to talk about creationism.
I'm also at a loss for why people are still opposed to the teaching of evolution. Are they so insecure about their faith that they are afraid to let their children learn about a scientific theory? Will we ban discussion about the Big Bang or carbon dating next?
But it still annoys me when liberals want to stop things like this on the dubious basis of the separation of church and state.
The aforementioned battles against the pledge of allegiance or nativity scenes really bother me. And I'm a card carrying member of the ACLU and registered in the Working Families Party. Out of all of my friends (most of whom are liberals) I'm probably the furthest to the left. Despite all that I do get really annoyed when we go to war over such trivial stuff.
Rather then talking about nativity scenes I'd rather see the left spend our political capital on stuff that actually matters -- living wages, social security, etc etc. I do think the ID/creationism fight is one worth fighting though. I guess it's all about being reasonable.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
If you commit a crime, admit your sins and pay the price. Otherwise, face punishment at the highest levels, the death penalty.
Lets see, won't listen to father.. won't listen to mother. Sure as hell isn't gonna listen to anyone in the village/town/city. I say stop wasting precious food, water, shelter and time guarding him and just execute him. Oh and this is thinking pre-Roman times thinking when prisoners would simply be forced to fight to the death instead.
Perhaps if by "world" you mean America. It's pretty obvious to anyone who does a bit of research that the US never really cared if Iraq had WMD or not, just that they could justify that as a reason for invasion. You might want to look at this doco. Of course, GWB himself was probably clueless to the real truth, but who even believed that he really runs the show anyway?
Boo Fucking Hoo, cry me a fucking river! If its so damn bad, go back to your home country.
Actually, everybody born in France is automatically french since... 1791, this regardless to the parents nationality.
This has caused some strange cases when military duty was still an obligation, some people who were born in France, and declared as born in France, while their parents were visiting the country, and then had the surprise to receive an order to join when they reached 18.
I can't believe it, this guy got his fifteen minutes of fame and proceeded not to explain the rationale that CNN was missing. He went on and on about them missing the big picture but wouldn't go and actually describe what it was. How the hell are we supposed to know now? >
The link goes to an CIA archival page. The Duelfer report (and the last word on the matter) specifically points out that the trucks found were not mobile biowarfare labs. (Its the last paragraph before the section titled "Evolution of the Bio Warfare Program".) Someone with a brain might realize there might be a problem with the accuracy, if not veracity of the information, when the former Secretary of State hints that his biggest regret was his presentation of it at the UN.
We are responsible if we create the conditions that allows these scumbags to operate. Bushco has created these conditions by lying to the American people that Iraq presented an imminent threat to our national security. Then after invading, he disregards the JCS's recommendations on troop strengths, leading to a situation where there aren't enough footsoldiers to secure major population centers from insurgent attacks, and interdict support from Iran. He plows a ton of money to Halliburton and friends, who do not proceed to use the funds to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure. Two years later, and some egregious conduct at Abu Graib, the Iraqi people can't kid themselves that the US is leaving, OR walk down the street without worrying about getting blown up.
Here is the bottom line. Presuming Bushco has learned from its mistakes, it must now have a strategy to correct the errors and leave. How is he going to fix the fact that Iraq consists of three ethnic groups that are each others throats? How is he going to fix the fact that Iran is basically preparing Iraq to be the next Islamic state, and he doesn't have the boots in Iraq to stop it? How is he going to secure the oil infrastructure, transportation arteries, and rebuild the economy when the US military cannot eradicate the insurgent movements? How is Iraq supposed to rebuild its police and military when insurgents keep slaughtering the recruits (because we don't have the boots on the ground to protect them), and it may be the case the insurgents are using the recruitment programs to build its infrastructure?
Pithy neocon rhetoric doesn't change the fact that American patriots are dying and being maimed in Iraq over a lie, and piss poor execution after the invasion. I care about them. If Bushco can't correct its fuckups, then they should take our troops out of there.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Get this straight, people get bored, riots are fun (and fairly safe from the police, the more the better). They give you a sense of togetherness, you get to push the boundaries, and a host of other great male things. Most men like this kind of thing and appear to need it in a lot of ways. (look at your prison population)
Beside's, these people have houses, that means they can get a benefit. The poor people in Paris don't have an address and thus can't get a benefit. You see them every morning on the way to work sleeping over the subway vents for warmth with cardboard boxes over them. These people just got bored, found an excuse, and went and created some fun.
I realise that the above sounds horrible but have any of you ever thought why so many men are in the prison population. Mostly we are adrenaline junkies, and nobody really cares. We are pack animals, and nobody cares. We don't burn buildings when things are bad, we go to war, we kill, and we defend the female population. Riots are just an interesting way of attention seeking.
/. bug #926803 - Why I can post.
A lie is a false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood. Unless you can prove that they knew before hand that they did not have WMD then it is not a lie.
Ahh, but what about the military commanders that were responsible for supervising their subordinates? Please cite one commissioned officer who has been courtmartialed the way the enlistees have been convicted.
where there any commanders that were performing the actions or knew about it and did not report it? If so why should they sent to jail for actions they did not perform? If you are going to say that the US military solider is the same as sadams jailors then you are going to get the responce that the worst actions, and illegal at that, happening under the US military was not even close.
I understand the distinction you are making.
Jefferson appears to have been greatly influenced by Unitarianism. One person who Jefferson greatly admired and looked to for religious guidance was Joseph Priestley, the founder of the first Unitarian church in America (and a rather famous chemist) who fled England for Pennsylvania in 1794 because he was persecuted for his heretical writings. During Jefferson's time, Unitarians were considered to be heretics, primarily because Unitarians do not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Benjamin Frankin was also a friend of Priestley, they sailed together from England to Philadelphia and they started some of the first Unitarian churches in and around Philadelphia.
I cannot believe that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, who were friends of a person who had to flee England because of his religious beliefs, could ever have meant for religion of any sort to be a part of the government of the United States. The problem is that the Christian Right in the US are using the existance of the word "God" in the Declaration of Independance to shoehorn Christianity into the US government. Jefferson and Franklin held Unitarian beliefs, which were considered to be heretical. John Adams was a Unitarian who held some very negative views concerning God and Christians (especially Roman Catholics). People holding Unitarian beliefs were being persecuted in England. How could these three men have meant that the government of the Unites States not be totally separated from religion?
I found some interesting quotations from John Adams (most were in letters to Jefferson):
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
"Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents."
"Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires."
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
I came across a Jefferson quotation concerning god:
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
I'm not sure it's valid to say that because Jefferson had ties to a religion that was persecuted that it follows that Jefferson could therefore "[n]ever have meant for religion of any sort to be a part of the government of the United States". The only thing that really follows based on logic and common sense is that Jefferson would have wanted the kind of gov't that would neither persecute based on religion nor allow religious persecution.
And yet many, many decades before the current right-wing of the Republican faction even existed to abuse God in religion, the federal gov't sent an army to the territory of Utah to - essentially - persecute another religion deemed heretical: the Mormons. Prior to that the state of Illinois had decreed that all Mormons had to leave the state or be exterminated. So clearly we had all kinds of religious persecution - more than we have today - before the religious right was in power.
So you'd think that I would be especially sensitive to this issue, and I believe that I am. But the fact is that taking God out of gov't will not necessarily decrease tendency to persecute any given religion. It just makes gov't hostile to ALL religions. What we need is a gov't that it not attached to any specific doctrine or tenent - not a gov't that either denies or ignores the existence of God.
And I'm not sure how you take that Jefferson quote, but I don't think it is atheist or even genuinely agnostic. Here's the quote: "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
I'm a devout Mormon, yet I have no qualms endorsing this quote whole-heartedly. What is belief in a God who is never questioned? Any belief held without questioning debases both the holder of the belief and the object of it.
The fact is that some Founding Fathers, like Adams, had a serious beef with at least some versions of Christianity (eg Catholicism). But they kept their negative feelings against Catholicism out of the gov't and we have a Declaration of Independence, and a deep tradition, of invoking the name of God in official gov't capacities. It's on our money, it's in our pledge (a recent addition) and prayers are said in the Senate and House. Adams, Jefferson and many more can all freely allow God in gov't - just not the doctrine of any church that claims to speak for him.
-stormin
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
I found the Thomas Jefferson quote I had alluded to earlier. Try this one on for size!
Rev. Allen wrote in his diary: "President Jefferson was on his way to church on a Sunday morning with his large red prayer book under his arm when a friend querying him after their mutual good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson. To which he replied to Church Sir. You going to church Mr. Jefferson? You do not believe a word in it. [You see, Thomas Jefferson wouldn't be a member of our church. He was not an evangelical by any stretch of the imagination. But listen to what he said.] Sir said Mr. Jefferson. No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man and I as chief Magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."
Michael Novak, On Two Wings: Humble Faith and Common Sense at the American Founding. (San Francisco, Encounter Books, 2002), p. 31.
-stormin
The Southern Baptist Convention has creationism. On Slashdot, we have porn.
-You're a little cute
-With big boobs
-You can ignore those three requirements IF you are rich and only want a platonic marriage (but still want to lavish me with gifts)
I'll also have to ask my wife, but if you fit the above requirements, I'm sure she'll be cool with it.
Your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
There's a difference between a lie and a mistake. The trucks existed. We've found at least one of them. If the intelligence was wrong about them, that's a mistake. If they didn't exist and we knew they didn't exist, that's a lie. The charge of lying is unfounded as has been found by numerous reports both in the US and in other intelligence reviews internationally.
You've either got trouble with this language (you admit the problem is accuracy (were we right or not) and not necessarily veracity (did we tell the truth as we knew it at the time) in your own post) or you're badly peddling your own lie. I've known that the US has had a dysfunctional intelligence system for well over a decade and that dysfunctionality dates back at least to the Church committee geldings applied to the CIA. Periodically the US has this debate and the Democrats generally succeed in keeping idiotic restrictions on intelligence and often put new ones on like the Clinton gem that our intelligence agencies can't use felons as sources. Everybody in Al Queda is a felon, almost by definition. That's what makes them interesting, after all. Is it any surprise we couldn't penetrate that group?
President Bush, on several occasions that I personally heard broadcast, rejected the idea that Iraq was an imminent danger. Your assertion that he did so is inconsistent with the facts. The President's assertion was that Iraq had entered into the grey zone where we can't tell with sufficient precision whether they were an imminent danger or not. Considering all the intelligence failures uncovered since then, it's very likely that he had a good idea of how wide that grey zone was and we didn't. That's not quite something you want to be broadcasting on the public airwaves, though. "Hi, our intelligence agencies are so incompetent, we can't tell whether we need to bomb you next Tuesday" is something profoundly scary. No, you work like hell to fix the problem and pray that it doesn't become a practical difficulty in the meantime. Tenet was working halfway through a 14 year reform effort that was supposed to fix the issue of our dysfunctional intelligence system. Porter Goss is, no doubt, continuing the work.
The really scary bit is that several sections of the US government bureaucracy are only under loose control of the Executive. The CIA, as best I can tell, seems to be running intelligence operations against this White House (the Joe Wilson affair is front and center but by no means the only example). The DoD has been dangerously passive aggressive under both Clinton and George W Bush and those troop estimates are prime examples of it. The State Department is one huge Charlie Foxtrot and has been for decades, at least since Reagan when they were often dangerously insuburdinate by undercutting administration Soviet policy.
In 2005, there are areas whose security is guaranteed, top to bottom, by Iraqi government forces. These areas are growing all the time and we go in there under invitation only in those areas, mostly in the form of training advisors. Any normal Iraqi can construct a scenario where those areas grow to be 100% of the country and we're out entirely. The military reality is that it can take a couple of decades to train and mature a senior general. Somebody's going to be giving them advice and training for a long time. That's a very different proposition from being an occupying force.
As for Iran preparing Iraq to be the next Islamic state, you'd really have to be very naive about intra-Shia dynamics to worry much about that. The holy city of Najaf has its own scholars and the native Iraqi clerics fundamentally believe that the governing system of Iran is not only a non-performer, it is a Shia heresy. Najaf and Qom are for the Shia like Rome and Constantinople are for apostolic christians.
Iran's right to be scared because a functioning Iraq means that the view that they are heretics will ultimately win in the Shia religious councils and that means trouble for their personal, much less regime survival.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
Too bad. That's all the aggravation I could make for you.
There is some doubt whether this conversation actually occurred. The anecdote was written by the Rev. Ethan Allen (1797-1879), who would have been between 4 and 12 years old when Jefferson made this statement (Jefferson was president from 1801 to 1809). It would be quite a feat for a child to remember or write this very detailed anecdote in his diary.
"our particular principles of religion are a subject of accountability to our god alone. I enquire after no man's and trouble none with mine; nor is it given to us in this life to know whether yours or mine, our friend's or our foe's, are exactly the right."
Thomas Jefferson to Miles King, September 26, 1814
The rioters are the voiceless, the excluded, rioting is the best way to express the contempt they have for a society that has so much contempt for them.
If Arthur Rimbaud were around today, he would be torching cars as we speak.
Since we're on the subject, and it's germain -- the Muslim "prophet" Mohammed took a 9-year-old girl, Aisha, for his bride.
There are many atheists (note that it is not spelt "athiests", as you incorrectly seem to believe) who would like nothing more than to crush all religious though.
But such people tend to be extremists. Most religious people, including Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and so forth, show a high degree of tolerance for the beliefs of others.
I know you want to paint all religious people as "evil", but the fact of the matter is that you're wrong. Reality differs from your fantasy world.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
Most religious people, including Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, and so forth, show a high degree of tolerance for the beliefs of others.
That's true, but in the case of Jews and Christians they aren't following the Ten Commandments by doing so :
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"
The Qu'ran also has the same rule
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr10cisl.htm
Hindus - I have no idea, but historically they seem to have coexisted with Buddhists. I even saw some temples in Thailand with mixed Hindu and Buddist gods. Buddhism itself apparently has something about 'the higher Buddha is not Buddha'. So they both seem to be free of the inherent intolerance in Abrahamic, monotheistic religions.
Hey, since you're only following up to this because I was rude to you here
How does 'The Higher Linux is not Linux sound to you'
I know you want to paint all religious people as "evil", but the fact of the matter is that you're wrong. Reality differs from your fantasy world.
I can see how you'd get that impression from this post:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=167879&thresh
Oh wait, I said the exact opposite. Didn't Jesus say something about hating the sin, not the sinner?
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
It's perfectly fine for Jews, Christians and Muslims to tolerate others who do not believe the same faith. After all, the commandment usually used the wording "Thou must ..." or "You must ..." Such wording implies that the Jew, Christian or Muslim must not have any other god above Yahweh, God, Allah, etc. It does not say what others must believe, nor does it suggest how such religious people should treat those who do not share the same faith.
I agree, the "Higher Linux" is Solaris and/or FreeBSD.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
It's perfectly fine for Jews, Christians and Muslims to tolerate others who do not believe the same faith. After all, the commandment usually used the wording "Thou must
So when Moses found people worshipping the golden calf, he let them continue? What about all the passages in the Old Testament/Quran about killing unbelievers. Homosexuals too, BTW.
Meh, this is pointless, and I'm a bad person for enjoying it so much.
Have you used vxWorks? Closed source and expensive sadly, but it's a wonderful operating system.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Who suggested that the various Biblical characters were able to properly follow the Commandments? I sure did not.
Cyric Zndovzny at your service.