Slashdot Mirror
Spammer Gets $11 Billion Fine
Spad writes "It's not a typo, The Inquirer (amongst others) is reporting that an Iowa-based ISP has been awarded $11.2 billion in a case against spammer James McCalla, who was found guilty of sending over 280 million illegal spam emails. Under state law, the ISP was entitled to $10 per illegal e-mail sent. According to the Quad-City Times, McCalla has also been banned from using a computer for 3 years. From the article: "CIS acknowledged that it is unlikely to see any of the judgment money but said that it was time that spammers learnt that their actions would result in an economic death penalty"."
Are you allowed to declare bankrupcy if you owe money via criminal court order?
This dude just got F'd in the A.
Ehh...this is the life we chose.
...with soft viagra.
That's ok. MR JAMES MCCALLA read an email a week ago about how to get out of debt by declaring bankruptcy.
10 bux says he will appeal. Or, one Iowa origonating spam email says he will appeal. . .
If you are about to mod me down, keep in mind that this post was most likely sarcastic.
..how is he supposed to pay for this? Most people don't even earn this in a lifetime.
...their actions would result in an economic death penalty.
How about a real one?
Uhm, sorry to say, but how is fining someone $39/email really justified?
That seems beyond excessive.
MABASPLOOM!
I'll bet it will take him a long time working minimum wage to pay off that debt! :-)
:-) (oops, too late! :-( )
And first post, woot!
This just proves that spam is big business, on both ends of the spectrum and even inside (read: spam filtering devices).
Of course, the only loser is the *users* caught in the middle...
So, where is that huge check going to be postmarked from??
It's a nice symbolic gesture, but it'll never stop spam. There are too many morons out there who actually buy stuff from spam advertisements. Even if one user out of a million clicks on an ad, it didn't cost the spammer anything to send out those million messages from other people's PCs behind their unfirewalled DSL connection.
I'd rather see thes guys do some jail time.
"CIS acknowledged that it is unlikely to see any of the judgement money but said that it was time that spammers learnt that their actions would result in an economic death penalty."
CIS acknowledged that it is unlikely to see any of the judgement money but said that it was time that spammers learnt that their actions would result in an economic death penalty.
Why does that sentence look weird?
(going to google.com)
define: learnt
---No definitions were found for learnt.
Well at least we learnt one thing today.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
More of this needs to happen to show Spammers that it's not going to be economically feasable to spam ppl anymore. I'm surprised more ISPs aren't shutting more and more of these folks down, but I guess open relays, anon proxies and zombie machines (everywhere) give the spammers a good choice of SMTP options. Personally I love my server setup to deal with Spam: greylisting -> postfix -> mailscanner -> razor2 -> pyzor -> dcc checks -> spam assassin -> clamav -> bitdefender -> mailscanner -> ~/Maildir I haven't had a real spam get into my INBOX in months, and I update my SA rules and virus defs nightly. I wish more would create these kinds of blocks and stick them in front of more and more mailservers...would help cut down on the spam, thus stopping more of it from being clicked on, thus cutting down on the economics of it all. Having a user click a 'this is spam' button is after the fact. I'm also a fan of tarpitting, though I haven't set it up...yet. Since I keep a list of spammers now, I can use that list once I have la brea or the like setup, thus hurting spammers more by tying up their sending boxes. Anyone have other ideas on how to automate this return fight?
fak3r.com
I have no sympathy for this guy, and I nope the other spammers will take this as a hint. Every time I receive an e-mail offering me Viagra I take it as a personal insult ;)
Perhaps he should contact his friend in Nigeria.
Be a real patriot: Question authority. Think for yourself. Formulate your own conclusions.
That's kind of the point. That is why they call it an economic death penalty, he has to pay for the rest of his life.
Since its unlikely this ISP will see one red cent from this guy, I read that they can write the judgement off. A discount for them, but even worse for the spammer, a form of 'income' to him since he does not have to pay
So the IRS will be knocking on his door, asking for their rightfull taxes.
Sometimes, in this day and age, I wish I was banned from using a computer for a few years... computer addiction is not teh fun :(
Frank: Gentlemen, I propose we send a message to tobacco companies everywhere by fining the Spammers infinity billion dollars!
Congressman: That's the spirit Frank! But I think a real number might be more effective.
No one cares what your captcha was
Houston TX, USA
Did the judge append a non-functioning "sign off" option?
Well and good, I suppose. I'm all for trying to eliminate the financial incentive to send out spam, and impossible-to-satisfy judgements are one way of doing that.
At the same time, though, that under the current judicial system and global nation-state system, this amounts to not much. One guy who was unfortunate enough to be based in the US got nailed. Great. But I've got the sneaking suspicion there are more offenders scattered in places the long arm of American law just can't effectively get to. And their services just became incrementally more attractive, since there's one fewer person selling spam.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
"The Iowa court was told the defendants "falsely and illegally" represented that their e-mails originated from the CIS domain The e-mails used the cis.net as a return address to disguise the source of the e-mails to avoid complaints."
Seeing how the ISP got screwed like that, this huge amount actually seems fair to me. Spam needs to be made absolutely unprofitable.
Anyone know how draconion the "not allowed to use a computer" laws are? Does it only apply to PC's, or would this guy not even be able to use the friar at McDonalds?
"Live as if you'll die tomorrow." Ridiculous. You could die later today.
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:vu0EKWi4lTYJ:ww w.hamilton-co.org/cinlawlib/resources/303cv80109.p df+%22James+McCalla%22+%2Bspam&hl=en
I remember these being all the rage some time ago...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
*nods* This will never matter. Only child support can be garnished so nobody can ever actually make him pay this.
It's a big number but it is purely symbolic. They would have collected more if the fine had been $200, I doubt he'll pay that much of this.
This goes up there with the 340 year jail terms as being thoroughly silly . It is clear spammers need punished but they also need rehabilitation . .. but this will ruin this man for life , they are only ,after all cheap fraudsters .
It would be fine if there was a default of seizing all the assets gained from their actions
This type of sentence gives them no hope of rehabilitation and will most likely drive them to a further life of crime . After all if you owe that much , then you won't want your earnings going via official channels.
Now it is likely the fine will not stand at 11 Billion , but with whatever fine it is including a computer ban , they guy is screwd.
Now I agree he needs some form of punishment , but he should have a hope at the end.
How about seizing all the assets and making him perform a few years community service in a relevant field , perhaps even a stay in a minimum security prison or a term of parole .
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
Hooray! Now lets go and get the other SPAMmers, and MAKE THEM PAY!
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
Would someone please forward the following to James McCalla for me, it seems they've been trying to reach him for some time!
----
FREELOTTO GROUP INTERNATIONAL
Prize Remittance Division (PRD)
RE: OFFICIAL WINNING NOTIFICATION
FILE REF NO: 07- 321786542
FAST NO: 2912144
LOTTO REF: FL/0507/FAST
Dear Prize Winner,
This email confirms that you have received from the FREELOTTO GROUP INTERNATIONAL an official notification of your lotto winning in the FREELOTTO AUTOMATIC SUBSCRIPTION TICKET GAME (F.A.S.T) played on the 1st of january 2006, at our lottery office complex Trafford, London.
You have won a FREELOTTO PRIZE OF £ 500,000 [five hundred thousand pounds sterlings], a prize payout of your winning has been approved by the FREELOTTO GROUP. In accordance with the United Kingdom lottery ordinance, you are authorized as the lotto prize winner to request claims of your winning prize.
The FREELOTTO AUTOMATIC SUBSCRIPTION TICKET (F.A.S.T) GAME is an online promotional program organized by the FREELOTTO GROUP INTERNATIONAL. A total of 500,000 different email addresses are entered for the FREELOTTO AUTOMATIC SUBSCRIPTION TICKET GAME (F.A.S.T).
SINCERELY,
ROBERT A. V. BENARD,
GROUP PRESIDENT - FLG
fak3r.com
This is an interesting judgement. I mean, almost everything uses computers in one way or another - cars have computers in them, is he banned from using a car?
I can get mired in technicalities, it is obvious the judgement refers to a personal computer. But that line does get fuzzy. Does an iPod count? A PDA? A cell phone?
Also, given how essential computer use is nowadays, this almost infringes on barring the pursuit of life, liberty yadda yadda. Yes he committed a crime, but it is almost to the point where essential tasks cannot be performed, but on a pc. And in three years, who knows.
Do you know of anyone who actually did any real studies or investigations and found that spammers really are generating sales from the spam they send out?
In my own experience, when I've actually tried to visit a web-site or reply to an email given in a spam ad, it was already disabled/shut off. It seems like the war on spam has escalated to the point where ISPs are getting fairly efficient at shutting down the spammers' mailboxes and web presences within minutes or hours of them sending out a barrage of advertising.
I suspect the *real* problem is, big spammers are getting paid to advertise other people's products in this manner - never caring that it's completely and utterly ineffective marketing.
Most people? Try all but 12 people.
My left arm is all scars and I consider that a valid excuse...
It wasn't meant to be taken literally
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
From QuadCity Times: The lawsuit claimed that McCalla sent more than 280 million illegal spam e-mail messages into CIS's network...
He claimed that under state law in effect at the time, he was entitled to $10 per illegal e-mail.
Kramer said then that he likely will not see any of the judgment money.
Then what precisely, would be the point? If the claim is that this will somehow economically damage a spammer, when in fact not even a single dollar may be paid out ultimately to the aggrieved party. Not to mention the ruling is in Iowa but the spammer is in Florida, so there may be jurisdictional disputes, reciprocity or not.
This is merely smoke and mirrors, to make some people feel like they are doing their part in the war on spam. I don't see spam drying up. It seems to be getting worse. There has to be a real crackdown, perhaps even prison time if any inroads are to be made.
Wake me when they string this spammer up to a tall tree by his thumbs.
GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
McCalla has also been banned from using a computer for 3 years.
br? No porn for you!
If big boobed women work at Hooters do one legged women work at IHOP?
The Fine is so ridiculous that spammers will never take it seriously. --- It's been 10 seconds since you hit 'reply'.
Ok. Let me preface this by saying I'm all for getting rid of spam and spammers.
That said, 11 BILLION dollars? That's more than the GDP some nations.... it's not only improbable that they'll collect, but what is the real point of asessing such a sum? They might have assigned a billion gazillion trillion quillion dollars for all that amount matters. My concern is "how will that help deal with the rest of them", so my cheering for this judgement is a bit tempered by the insanity of the judgement. Indebting an individual or even small group of individuals with 11 billion dollars is just as bad against spammers as the idiotic size of the RIAA lawsuits from a few years ago - last thing we need is sympathy for spammers because the hammer of justice fell too hard....
I admit that arithmetic is not my strong suit, but I'm usually pretty good at multiplying and dividing by ten (in decimal, anyway).
By my math 280M x 10 = 2.8B. Where'd the other eight-odd billion come from? Or by "over" 280M did they mean 1,100M?
WTF?
-Peter
PS: The Fine Article was of no help.
-P
(Just as I was begining to control my twitching every time someone slaps terrorism on something they don't like. Copyright Terrorists, parking lot terrorists, poop'n'scoop terrorists, even terror terrorists.)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Change the law to affect the party that stands to profit from whatever action the email suggests AND the party that sent the mail.
$5.5B from SpammerDude, $5.5B from D1sc0unt V1agr4 Inc.
Fraught with problems, but I'm just some moron on slashdot - what do I know about legislation?
Dare to Hope. Prepare to be Disappointed.
Hey, I've got another one for him, apparently he's a winner! Someone forward this on to James McCalla as well, seems his money problems are behind him!
,please remember to quote your reference number and batch
---
Euro - Afro Asian Sweepstake Lottery
An Affiliate of Foundmoney International
Arena Complex Km 18 Route de Rufisque
I.P.P Award Dept.
Johannesburg, South Africa.
Ref: EAASL/941OYI/03
Batch: 03/06/MA34
WINNING NOTIFICATION:
Attn:Dear Sir/Madam
We happily announce to you the draw of the Euro - Afro Asian Sweepstake
Lottery International programs held on the 1st of May 2004 in Dakar
Senegal.Your e-mail address attached to ticket number: 564 75600545 188 with
Serial number 5388/02 drew the lucky numbers: 31-6-26-13-35-7, which
subsequently won you the lottery in the 2nd category. You have therefore been
approved to claim a total sum of US$4,500,000.00 (Four million, Five Hundred
Thousand United States Dollars) in cash credited to file
KPC/9080118308/03.This is from a total cash prize of US $ 45 Million dollars,
shared amongst the first Ten (10) lucky winners in this category.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!
Due to mix up of some numbers and names, we ask that you keep your winning
information confidential until your claims has been processed and your money
Remitted to you. This is part of our security protocol to avoid double
claiming and unwarranted abuse of this program by some participants. All
participants were selected through a computer ballot system drawn from over
40,000 company and 20,000,000 individual email addresses and names from all
over the world.
This promotional program takes place every year. This lottery was promoted and
sponsored by Association of software producers. we hope with part of your
winning,you will take part in our next year US$20 million international
lottery. To file for your claim, please contact our paying officer:
Contact Person:Mr Peter Moyo
Foundmoney Int.
Email:pmoyo@lycos.co.uk
Remember, all winning must be claimed not later than 25th of
September,2004.After this date all unclaimed funds will be included in the
next stake.Please note in order to avoid unnecessary delays and
complications
numbers in all correspondence.
Furthermore, should there be any change of address do inform our agent as soon
as possible.
Congratulations once more from all members and staffs of this program. Thank
you for being part of our promotional lottery program.
Sincerely,
SIR T.U.Quarshie
AFRO-ASIAN Zonal Coordinator
fak3r.com
I AM THE AWARDEE OF RECORD OF A US FEDERAL COURT JUDGMENT OF ELEVEN BILLION TWO HUNDRED MILLION US DOLLARS ($11,200,000,000.00). UNFORTUNATELY, MY BANK ACCOUNT AT WELLS FARGO CLAIMS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO PROCESS SO LARGE A SUM AT ONCE. I MUST ACT QUICKLY, FOR I FEAR THE DEFENDANT IN THE CASE MAY FLEE THE COUNTRY TO AVOID RIGHTFUL PAYMENT. HENCE, THIS UNUSUAL REQUEST.
WELLS FARGO INFORMS ME LARGEST DEPOSIT AMOUNT ACCEPTED IS $999,999.00, AND ONLY FROM ANOTHER REGISTERED BANK ACCOUNT. THEREFORE, IF YOU WILL ACCEPT $999,999.00 INTO YOUR PERSONAL ACCOUNT, WITH UNDERSTANDING TO TRANSFER TO MY ACCOUNT WITHIN 30 DAYS, I WILL HAPPILY AND WITH INTEGRITY PAY YOU A TEN PERCENT HANDLING FEE ($99,999.90)...
_____
You get the idea...
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
"* LAWSUITS AND JUDGMENTS
The filing of either a Chapter Seven straight bankruptcy or Chapter
Thirteen debt adjustment immediately stops any lawsuits from being filed
or judgments being taken against you. If a law suit is pending at the
time of such filing, it can go no further. If a judgment has been
taken, its enforcement can go no further. If a creditor has a judgment
and is garnishing your wages, the garnishment can be stopped. Filing
for Chapter Seven straight bankruptcy may relieve you of the obligation
to pay the judgment. In a Chapter Thirteen debt adjustment, you may be
able to satisfy the judgment over a period not to exceed five years. If
the judgment has placed a lien on your home, that lien can be removed if
it interferes with your homestead. If lawsuits or judgments are a
threat or reality, the protection afforded under the bankruptcy laws may
be an appropriate solution for you."
It appears that in some states the law is a little different, but generally the answer is yes, you can file bankruptcy.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
that will provide him with the money, if he in turn helps this high official in wiring money to the US.
11bn dollars hurts, but... 3 years without using computers? Where are the human rights in US courts? Thats inhuman. I think this poor guy is watching for a fast suicide way, anything, but not 3 years without computers.
Don't worry, that money should be here from Nigeria... ... ... ...any second now, just you see... ... ... ...they probably waited to send it with my cheap viagra.
If this signature is witty enough, maybe somebody will like me.
...was the fact that part of the ruling prohibits this guy from accessing the Internet for three years. Is it just me or does that seem light? Five years is more like it.
I think this is actually the key to the punishment. The $11B would only go to the ISP, but keeping this guy offline is good for the end-users as well. Not that there won't be others to take his place, but if we start seeing more of these rulings, more and more spammers could be prohibited from the net.
Per ardua ad astra.
It appears I will have to solicit my inventory of viagra, cialis, and levitra elsewhere.
First of all, if it was truly "completely and utterly ineffective marketing" then this problem would have sorted itself out a long time ago. I know that someone, somewhere, is buying this overpriced crap, and generating enough revenue to keep this thing going.
Part of the issue (and definitely the hardest to solve) is that the ISP's have no choice but to take a reactive approach. As you correctly pointed out, the ISP's have "escalated to the point where ISPs are getting fairly efficient at shutting down the spammers' mailboxes and web presences within minutes or hours of them sending out a barrage of advertising" Now the problem becomes (and really always has been) that the ads are ALREADY SENT OUT. You can only shut it down after the violation has been made, you can't (nor should you under normal circumstances, once again, murky water here) either deny service to as "suspected" spammer or proactively monitor connection utils (like port 25, for example, not like the spammers have a centralized source anyway) for a certain threshold then chop, thereby at least reducing the number of emails that go through.
It's nice that the links die within a few hours, but I can rest assured knowing that if I was wanting to purchase those p3nif phills from a email with a dead link, that I need only wait a few hours before I get another email with a brand new one.
Well now, if that doesn't stop them then nothing will.
While I agree that the guy deserves the shaft, where is spam in the technolgy problem priority these days?
Here's the short list:
DRM: As the sony rootkit points out, a little slap on the hand is all that the good corporate citizens get in a bad situation. RIAA sharing-is-evil corporatethink included.
Trusted Computing: Loss of control over much of anything on a computer that used to be mine.
Representative Democracy: I don't really care who's running the insane asylum, but it bothers me more that the individual is no longer represented effectively. Maybe it's always been the case, but now I'm just old enough to see it.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
...and the spelling nazis at the same time! Guess I learnt my lesson :(
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
Lawyers looking for the big score should track them all down and get a contingency fee of x%
In a related story, the State of Iowa went bankrupt after it, too, had to pay an $11 billion dollar fine after it sent 280 million identical emails informing the spammer's victims of the settlement.
Kill thousands of foreigners with poisoned gas, leaving nearly half a million of them permanently injured, and you'll pay out only
$470 million.
Why is this spammer being forced to pay more for his petty, annoying crimes than real, serious criminals (like rapists, murderers, child molestors, and so forth)? The worst thing spam ever did to anyone was waste their time.
The case began to go poorly for Mr. McCalla when after being asked by the prosecution whether he had in fact sent unsolicited email, he was only able to answer with phrases such as: This T9rade isOn The M0ve._trueness. and Other guys are improving themselves..are you?
that's $3.92 billion he'll owe the IRS.
w00t! PWN3D!!1
This is one guy I hope the IRS takes everything and the boxer shorts from. I hate spam (I have a good email service though, so little worry now). 280 million spams, billions in taxes owed...nope, the tax men will never notice that.
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
The fix for must SPAM is simple. Change the Uniform Commercial Code to allow an automatic refund from your credit card account upto in one year after any sales based on SPAM. No appeal or reason needed. If this were the case, no credit card company would touch SPAMers. The real problem are the banks as they seem happy to make money off of SPAM.
I say kick him in the nuts, give him a cardboard box to live in and drop him in the middle of San Francisco with a sharpie and blank sign.
Click Click Bloody Click PANCAKES!
A priest, a rabbi and a friar walk into a McDonald's...
I think it would be a greater punishement if he had to open and read every spam email he sent for the next 3 years.
Health Insurance Quotes
By economic death penalty they must refer to something that is never actually carried out, delayed by infinite appeals and more for show than anything else. They'll never get a dime of those billions, the spammer will continue to spam (check out http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200 5601040360 - if the legal system won't do anything about a woman who was caught three times driving with a suspended license to her probation officer they won't do anything significant about a spammer) and people like me will lose ever more faith in the system.
We have people awarding impossible fines with full knowledge that they will never be recovered (ie: they knowingly refused to mete out justice since their "justice" is only something that exists on paper and in their fantasy world). We have judges who order restraining orders against David Letterman because somebody claimed he was using psychic powers to harass her. We have people who will devote months of their lives to sit on juries and render verdict even though everybody knows from the start that what the jury says is irrelevant because everything gets rewritten on appeal anyway.
The system is broke. The overlords of the system don't care; these people have much less respect for the law than the criminals they try in their courts.
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"
Obviously I'm missing something, and so is the article.
$10 x 280,000,000 11,200,000,00
Where did the other factor of ~3 go? Maybe that's the judge was convinced that, like any IT project, you should just automatically multiply the requirements by 3.
The author should know someone's going to ask questions about that because because we want to know where the money is coming from and where it's going. Not clarifying that makes the article just regurgitation and makes it look like somethings being hidden.
Not that I'm upset with the verdict, in any case.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
It's really not a economic death penalty. More like a financial castration.
James McCalla can still do business, just no longer by contaminating the electronic gene pool.
Support the FairTax
Nightly updates? Don't you think the cure is a little worse than the disease? Unless you are obsessive compulsive ... in which case, carry on.
I'm wrong and so are you.
Handed down by U. S. District Judge Charles R. Wolle on Dec. 23, the judgment also prohibits McCalla from accessing the Internet for three years.
Whenever you hear of malicious hackers or spammers getting caught you always see these stipulations of "not allowed to use the Internet". If you ask me, it's kind of ridiculous to impose a restriction of that sort on a spammer who probably didn't actually do the spamming, but outsourced that to some kid in Russia.
Also, regarding the judgement. If the only point of the judge issuing such a high fine was to draw attention to himself and/or the case (TFA states that they will likely not see ANY money at all), he should have done something far worse: told the spammer to compose an email of apology to the CIS account holders he spammed with his full name and legitimate email address.
I miss when the punishment used to fit the crime. There was an opportunity here to do something really unique and instead it became something easily forgotten in the coming weeks.
Isn't there a quake map called Quad City?
This judgement won't even put a dent in this guy. He'll file bankruptcy and use his ill gotten gains, which he has certainly stashed somewhere foreign and inhospitable to American law enforcement, to open a new spamming service in a country that is also hostile to American law enforcement.
The only thing this judgement did was force this guy and others like him to take their business to a more hospitable climate.
How pathetic are you that you follow me from topic to topic and waste all your mod points at once modding me down?
"CIS acknowledged that it is unlikely to see any of the judgment money but said that it was time that spammers learnt that their actions would result in an economic death penalty."
Sooo.... who gets the money? If the spammer doesn't actually have to pay the money, then what did they learn and why will they change?
-Shippy
In what world does 280,000,000 * $10 = $11,200,000,000?
It's important to read this story the way prospective spammers read the story.
From the QC Times story: "Kramer said then that he likely will not see any of the judgment money."
Prospective spammers read this as: "A loss of a court case will not cost anything, because all the money is moved to secret bank accounts.
From the QC Times story: "... the judgment also prohibits McCalla from accessing the Internet for three years."
Prospective spammers read this as: "Who cares? I have a low-level employee who does the work."
The entire issue is read by spammers as a small bump in the road.
The text below is from American and British English differences.
280 million emails * 10$/email = $ 2.8billion $11.2BN - $2.8BN = $8.4BN of unexplained fine.
Good evening James McCalla!
Going b4nkrupt? Ne3d cash fast?
C1ick h3re for a low intere5t 11 billion d0llar lo4n!!
Charging someone with a fine they could never pay is kind of missing the point, ain't it?
I mean, in the US anyways, a person simply declares bankruptcy, which lasts 7 years and then they can go back to applying for credit cards and such without reprocusions as if nothing ever happened.
If a US citizen goes bankrupt, just move to Canada and open a line of credit. I know of one person that did just that and wrote off $50,000 in university debt.
The legal system is rediculous as it is without awarding fantasy amounts of money to people that can't claim or prove they have come anywhere near that amount in damages or losses. This ISP is actually out 11 billion dollars?
Also, the guy can't go near a computer for 3 years? Does that penalty actually work or can even be enforced? Short of throwing the guy in solitary confinement, there is no way someone that unscrupulous is going to not touch a computer for 3 years. Why not just setup a consulting firm teaching other people how to spam, you don't have to touch the computer to be a public menace.
If the US isn't serious about spam protection, then stop joking around and either get serious or get over it.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
It should be noted that the spammer was not prohibited from using a computer for 3 years, which would be darn near impossible in this day and age. (You couldn't for example use a car or phone or just about any other electronic device for that matter. Not to mention that even if limited from PCs, he would have a hard time getting a useful job.) He was rather prohibited from accessing the Internet for 3 years, which is a much more fitting penalty. It is a significant difference from not being able to use a computer.
AJ Henderson
will they end up suing:
Alan Ralsky
Scott Richter
Alexy Panov
Alex Blood
Robert Soloway
and the rest of the pinheads listed on the Spamhaus Registry of Known Spam Operations? Most of the stuff that I'm seeing is from Panov and Blood, with some dribblings from the rest on my server and the LUG server that I oversee. Shut this group of idiots down and I might see some peace and quiet for a change.
To put it succinctly:
YAY!
A good addition to his punishment would be to publish his name, crime, email address,photo and phone number on some prominent billboards.
... they get nothing for sure.
Do you think that if Microsoft had sent the same amount of spam, they'd fine it over ten billion dollars? As much as I'd take guilty pleasure from that happening, it seems unlikely to me. So basically they gave this guy a worse judgment because he was comparatively poor. That sounds like bad law.
Let them cancel half the debt, then report the income to the IRS and then file a report with the IRS that these guys are committing the tax fraud and send dicovery documents to to IRS and then collect the reward of the money from the IRS. That way the IRS can crawl up their ass with a microscope, then they still get some money from that.
Fight Spammers!
Yes. Pay the debt.
Last I heard MacDonalds was initially assessed damages equivalent to a couple of days' coffee sales (or profits?) in a case where they were singularly arrogant (and idiotic) in their own defense. The pop media turned that into a case for tort reform, and it eventually got settled for less money -- but people still whinge about how unjust it was that the old lady with the skin grafts on her crotch got too much cash from the multinational company.
The individual who tries to
I'm no fan of SPAM, but this is out of hand. In general extreme punishments to make an example of people disgust me. Justice has to be proportionate.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
It is my understanding that bankruptcy will not discharge a judgment for an intentional act. The question then becomes, does spamming in that case become an intentional act. That's is why OJ still has the judgment against him.
Fight Spammers!
CIS (the ISP) was asking for punative damages equal to the (original) statuatory damages, which the judge granted them. Plus RICO and the Iowa Ongoing Criminal Conduct Act allowed them to tripple the statuatory damages. So, instead of paying $10/email, they ended up paying $40/email. See the Court docs here.
From TFA:
...sent millions of unsolicited e-mails advertising mortgage and debt consolidation services through the ISP's network...
...the Iowa court was told the defendants "falsely and illegally" represented that their e-mails originated from the CIS domain...
Also from TFA:
Was the illegal act the fact that the emails went through the network or that the spam had cis.net in the return address?
In other words was the issue that the spam was tying up CIS' network, or that the spammer was making them look bad by pretending to be one of their users?
Any thoughts?
...they could sue thousands of them at a time!
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Under California law, it states that the advertiser is liable. The I-CAN-SPAM say that the person who initiates the spam is responsible. The initiator is not just the person who presses sent, but the person who procures the spam.
Fight Spammers!
Shouldn't the isp be paying the fine to the people that they allowed this guy to spam? The only way to ever slow down/stop spammers is to make the ISP's responsible for the actions of their customers, not reward them for their customers behaving badly.
All he has to do is stay away from computers for 3 years? He should be banned from using a computer for 10 years!
eTrade SUCKS
echo $sig;
After 10 years or so, we've finally arrived at the stage where we threaten the only thing that matters to the spammers: Their money.
This might be a good turning point, especially with these ridiculously silly amounts which actually do mean that life, economically, is over for you. Everything the guys ever earns above and beyond whatever the minimum-for-life-that-you-can't-legally-take-away is in his jurisdiction will go poof, for the rest of his years.
In other words, the spam equation just changed from "make tons of money, if caught, lose some and continue" to "make tons of money, if caught you're pretty much dead". That's a different game.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
If you have $1000 of debts, you have a problem. If you have $1000000 of debts, your bank has a problem. If you have $1000000000 of debts, you are a third world entity. Everybody's in line to send money to the third world.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
It's ok. I have recently recieved an email from a king in Nigeria that said he had recently departed with his entire family in a tragic accident. And he does not have any next of kin. And the email came from the banker of this family who wishes to split this substatial fortune with me. I can forward that message to Mr. Mcallah. I'm sure it will help him out tremendously. And then he can get back to work selling ci-@alliS soft-tabs and making all these limp men walk tall and proud! Our nation needs more erections!
Can anyone tell me why the ISP was awarded four times the amount to which it was entitled? I actually looked at both the Inquirer article and the one it linked to and couldn't see any explanation.
280 million X $10 = $2.8 billion (the amount to which the ISP was entitled)
$2.8 billion X 4 = $11.2 billion (the mount awarded)
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
Kinda confused, and sorry if anyone else brought this up already. But,
280 million x $10= $11.2 Billion?
I know my math isn't the greatest, but...
OK. A spammer gets fined $11e9 for spamming. MS gets a slap on the wrist for its behavior. What's wrong with this picture?
eom
Installing a rootkit: $7,50
Sending a spam email: $39
Downloading an mp3 illegally: $120.000
Apparently it's a function of monetary gain * wealth of victim / wealth of criminal. Obviously it was supposed to be wealth of criminal divided by wealth of victim!
"Email may be fradulent. Handle with care."
There, no more lawsuits for the spammers!
(stupid lameness filter, i wanted that to be all caps)
Do you think it would be appropriate to start a class action suit against mortgage companies and other merchants for spamming my snail-mail box? I am so frustrated with the junk mail in my mailbox.
While this statement is correct, ‘effect’ can in fact be used as noun and verb.
‘I intend to effect these changes immediately.’ (I intend to bring about these changes ...)
use Blunt::Instrument;
Change the law to affect the party that stands to profit from whatever action the email suggests AND the party that sent the mail.
OK, so let's do a scenario. You own "Divide By Zero's Friendly Software Store" and I own "Alizarin's Discount Software, Bowling, and Small Appliance Emporium." I don't like the fact that you get more business than I do, so I contract a spammer under the table (and possibly by saying I'm you) to send out some spam advertising your company's mail-order services. Somebody reports it, and your company, as the supposed initiator and advertiser, is fingered. So you get fined/shutdown/whatever, and I laugh all the way to the bank.
I do make some assumptions about evidence, but still, is it really that far fetched?
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
What's your g/f's number? And your email address?
oh? ohhhhhhhh yea, thats right... maybe he will get a movie deal out of it? 1. Spam 2. Get $11B fine 3. movie deal for $12B
Slash-for-Thought
I think I received about 85% of those 280 million spam messages. Where's my money?
They should garnish his wages until the day he dies, then soak up his entire estate, liquidating all his assets. Then once that turnip is dry, cancel the remaining portion of the debt while his estate is still in probate (or before, however that works) so that his executor of his estate becomes responsible for the owed taxes (does it work like that? Not sure how debt is handled when the debtor dies) so that his family has to feel at least a small portion of his pain. It might not be their fault, but that should act as another deterrent for the rest of those a-hole spammers out there.
The funny thing is, even though I don't want anything on my body enlarged, I do actually want more information on a mortgage refinance. However I would never in 280 million years click on one of those email links. How much money could this guy have possibly made from this spamming? That's a number I'd like to see.
And they said zombies weren't real!
I'm just guessing but maybe they were awarded $2.8 billion in "compensatory" damages plus "punitive" damages. Punitive damagages are frequently trebled as a way to send the wrongdoer a message.
Insert witty sig here.
Yeah, but his computer takes two weeks to deliver!
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Some would argue it does...
Granted, all of the links I linked to deal mainly with voting rights and felon(y) disenfranchisement, and not with gun ownership/usage by felons. Even so, as it was originally written, the Constitution of the United States DID NOT prohibit either, it was only later additions to the Constitution (then backed up by Supreme Court rulings) that has entrenched this into the modern US social psyche.
With regards to voting rights, it is strange because the arguments used against felons are similar to arguments which have been used to deny voting rights for other segments of the population, most notably women and blacks. What is sickening is that while true that felons have done something bad, they have no voice after the fact and after they get out of jail, and those who would stand up for their rights after jail are few and far in number. This leads to lack of support for changes to the punishment structure which could arguably make prison more rehabilitative, and less of an institution for state-sanctioned revenge (such as, for instance, elimination of prison rape).
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
this is all crap unless we, the people, get our cut of the money!
"Which means tax evasion, which means they risk significant jail sentences next."
That's what spammers want everyone to think, so that fewer people decide to go into the spamming business.
In actuality, the government almost certainly will not be able to prove how much money was made.
"it is unlikely to see any of the judgment money but said that it was time that spammers learnt that their actions would result in an economic death penalty"
Yeah, let's teach them that they'll get sued even though they won't pay anything.
but the spammer didn't cost them that much money. They shouldn't be allowed to use my tax dollars to do their investigation.
Am I the only one that read that as "eleventy" billion?
But I was confused by the $11.2 billion settlement. FTA, CIS was entitled to $10 per illegal email.
$10 x 280 million = $2.8 billion
It appears McCalla was charged $40 per email, not $10.
even the IRS writes off debts it can't recover too. So he simply stiffs the IRS until they write it off
did you forget to take your meds?
Let's try another scenario. Your nasty retail tricks are a real drain on the bottom line of Anonymous Coward's Software Mart. Pretending to be you, I hire somebody to burn down Divide By Zero's store. You, as the supposed initiator, are fingered. So you get fined/shutdown/whatever, and I laugh all the way to the bank.
Oh no, we will have to make it legal to hire somebody to commit a crime!
$280m * $10 = $2.8b ( != $11b )
maybe they converted to Canadian for bigger effect...
It's only a model.
Does anybody think this guy will miss any meals because of this?
[...] The case remains active as to defendants AmeriP.O.S., Inc., Damon DeCrescenzo, and James McCalla. The court cannot yet determine whether any of the other named defendants have been served with process. The plaintiff and all defendants served with process shall file joint or separate status reports on or before January 3, 2005, so a further scheduling order can promptly be entered.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
Dated this 17th day of December, 2004
I haven't found the right one yet.
I forget what 8 was for.
Just a small comment. A recognition on the part of the ISP that it will be unable to collect on the judgment as a practical matter (ie. because the money has already been siphoned off by the spammer, or the spammer doesn't have enough to pay) does not equate forgiveness of the debt. Therefore this scenario involving the IRS probably doesn't apply.
However, I am not a tax laywer, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, it's AC, but would be poetic justice :-)
Wow!
I think I'll go and start up an ISP in Iowa, no matter what it costs.
One thing is for certain, the spam will come.
Then -- Cha Ching! I'm rich!
If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
you can in fact have the local police seize property to pay civil judgements. (note: this is quite different from having a debtor's prison. seizing property != imprisonment)
If your primary residence is seized, and it's a crime to sleep on public property, then isn't that grounds for putting a debtor in prison?
I also solved the profid problem/
1) Move to Iowa
2) Set up an open relay server
3) Sue
4) Profit
If you want more details, just send me 10$
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
They know that they won't really get the money; it'd be more satisfying if the verdict was something more realistic.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Spammers should be fucking shot
Shoot the lot of them, and their fucking families
Yes, it's true! The ISP was indeed awarded $11,600,000,000. However, it's currently locked away in a foreign bank account. I am the only person with access to the money. But, I need your help... If you wire $25,000 to me, I can retreive the full amount from the bank account. Then, we sill split the money, 50/50. And, you can trust me because I am the First Major Captain Commander of the Nigerian Bank Association. (Please send the $25,000 to be via PayPal).
Minor inconvenience x 280 million = One Big Freaking Inconvenince to Society.
No argument here, but they say its $10 per infraction, right? Well, being really good at math as all us geeks are, that comes to $2.8 billion. Where do they get $11 billion? So were talking $8.2 billion in punitive damages? ouch. Thats gonna leave a mark.
Sorry, I smoked my last sig
'cause if it were just some piddling amount like, say just ONE billion, he would just pay and laugh it off.
This space available.
$11 billion? No problem. Now he has a reason to respond to the several debt consolidation services that advertise "a low monthly payment", and the home equity loan lines that "guarantee a loan despite bad credit". -- Hiten
he'll get lean on his property, and make his credit go down the shoots.
Which is a world where credit is everything, thats pretty bad.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is a truly ridiculous sum of money, far more than any reasonable penalty should be for any crime.
But...
Think about the effects of 280 million emails. A good proportion of them get caught by servers and automated systems, but the remaining ones end up in people's inboxes all around the world.
People have to spend time removing them and even if it's only a second for each email, 10 million emails equates to 115.74 days of people's time. If they all got through, that's about 8.87 years of time to delete them.
The cumulative effect of these spammers is that people all over the world lose time to their pointless emails. There's also an emotional effect, caused by the feeling of receiving 50 spam messages a day.
I think these people spread waves of irritation across the planet, and the true effect of spammers is huge.
So what's a fitting punishment? Well, a financial one hurts, but a better one would be to make them do an extremely long period of community service, fine them a reasonable sum of money, ban them from computer use and revoke their passport. No fleeing the country!
If they fail to do their community service, make them go to jail instead. Not forever, just a few months to a year.
The problem is that spam operations will just move offshore, where your laws can't touch them. While part of me likes the idea of black helicopters flitting in under cover of darkness and delivering a crazed bunch of killers to 'finish the job', I guess some sort of extradition treaty (unlikely) is the best solution.
Also, sometimes the persons income verses debt is so bad, a judge will eliminate all debts, regardless of how the debt was originated.
It wuold have been far better to fine hime, take all assests, and give community service. Now he'll pay 1500 dollars and be done. Not that chapter seven doesn't impact your life.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I cannot believe that nobody on /. has pointed out that 280 million times $10 would be $2.8 billion. Where did the $11 billion come from.
Actually, I'd agree that a dime is probably a better metric of the damage caused (as long as that damage was only deleting spam, and not the ISP being RBLed and many people's communications being disrupted, not someone falling for a scam, and so forth).
However, as you've pointed out, a dime instead of a dollar still won't change the issue. Any spammer who sends a sizeable spam is going to have to declare bankrupcy, end of story.
My current spam irritation comes from the "companies you have done any business with can contact you" Do Not Call List exemption. When you combine this with the fact that a couple years ago, well-meaning laws went through stating that financial organizations can't just sell your information, you get the expected result: mergers. Lots and lots of mergers in the financial sector, for a couple years now. So now you have a few vast financial giants (like Bank of America) who can transmit your financial information to any *other* part of their company (including, say, their credit card/insurance/etc wings) and can call you and email you advertisements constantly on behalf of anything they own. It sucks.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
convicted felons can't own a firearm or vote. Does that go against the constitution?
The fact that felons can't vote is really bad. The entire point of voting is to have a safety valve where people can express their gripes without running out and shooting people. I would say that people who are in jail for a felony are prime candidates for people who aren't really happy with the way things are working and *would* like a say.
Otherwise, if I'm the State and I want to shush you, all I have to do is create a new felony law that you disagree with and when you violate it, silence you.
The felon sufferage thing is actually a little more complicated than just "can't vote". It doesn't apply in some states. In general, the states where it applies most strongly are Republican states; something like 80% of felons vote Democratic, probably (speculation here) a good chunk of which is because of drug law. Only two states (Maine and Vermont, both solidly Democrat) allow felons to vote from prison with the rest of the citizens. Some states allow a felon to vote once he has served out his prison sentence, others once he has also completed probation. Some disenfranchise a felon only if he has committed multiple felonies. A number of states require a felon to go through a process to re-obtain sufferage. A few states (again, all red states) permanently strip a felon of the right to vote (including, significantly, Florida, the "big swing state").
Here's a breakdown.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
yes ofcourse in our social system we use penalties like restricting people's freedom in various ways and taking away their money, etc., but to arbitrarily make up ridiculous amounts like that is to create a mockery of the system, which takes away from it's integrity and will eventually undermine it... oh, wait... maybe that's not such a bad thing? Okay, nevermind then. Continue on (maybe sick some RIAA lawyers after spammers while you're at it?).
Damn you. Now I can't turn them in and get a little money when you guys crawl up their ass with a microscope. :(
Fight Spammers!
Do you think he "learnt" his lesson? i'll bet 11.2 dollars that he does it again in 3 years!
Hey beef wud up!
I tip toe like rats on vouge runnways.
So where are the rest of them? I'm still getting 100 spam emails/day.
I agree with what you said, but I think most spammers would think this was an avoidable problem.
Anyhow, we know what spammers think; they aren't worried; the evidence is in our inboxes.
Anti-Spam laws are bad. His freedom (or lack thereof) is your freedom. A technical solution to spam is superior.
I want my Cowboyneal
If 'now' means 'by now' then it should probably be 'have learnt' in common English usage. If now is being used ideomatically as a filler eg. "Now... where was I", 'you learnt' is fine.
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
(I searched the topic, but I'm not sure I did it right)
This may not be a horrifyingly overzealous abuse of the legal system. While I'm certainly not a lawyer, nor am I greatly learned in business law, it's my understanding that in many ways large, even global corporations, are treated similarly to people in many respects of the law. On some level, even a fine of a million or so could easily be written off by a corporation that was interested in mass email marketing regardless of the law.
By defining such a large penalty, perhaps the court was simply looking forward to the inevitable day that a large corporation is taken to court for the same offense. Perhaps this was an attempt to define a penatly large enough to deter even large corporations.
And before you comment that a mass email marketing campaign would be suidcide for a company, what's to stop a company from setting up some shell corporation as a front to invest in spamming? Single spammers have reported fairly significant profits form the business, how much more could they make with corporate backing to pay for their activities and help hide them?
I'm sure it's too late to change my subject to a mod parent up, Interesting, but at least I can finally notice the incorrect spelling of "bankruptcy" and add you to my friends list. I'm still not convinced that beggars do so out of lack of *any* alternative, but you're making a lot of sense with this. It bears further investigation. THanks for hearing me out.
Mom says my