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Cloned Beef Coming Soon?
An anonymous reader writes "According to this article at Popular Science cloned beef may be coming soon. It talks about using meat within 48 hours of slaughter to allow cloning the best possible specimens, something that is not possible to determine while the animal is still alive. Apparently only 1 in 8000 animals is truly the best. Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal. That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is."
...welcome our new cloned beef overlords.
I browsed through an old story, found the first post, and cloned it.
Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal.
They have that its called Tofu.... honestly I don't see how you could "grow" meat.
I want the chance to vote with my dollars.
I don't think we know enough about the process and long term issues to go nuts with this now. Test it. Test the hell out of it.
But let me choose whether or not to buy it.
My mom says I'm cool.
Even if we could "grow" perfect steaks without the rest of the animal, somehow the practice will be banned. Yes, I'm looking at you, animal-rights extremists and religious wackos.
Unless you can exercise the meat that is "grown" it will be mostly tasteless.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
There's no ethical issues with raising an animal for food with me. Keep your ethics to yourself, and I'll take the steak that once had legs.
According to this article at Popular Science cloned beef may be coming soon
That sounds like the plot of a b-horror-porn movie starring a resurrected John Holmes.
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I hope you would stay vegan for dietary not for ethical reasons. Grown beef would be just as ethical as grown plants that are GMO.
-The art of programming is the pursuit of absolute simplicity.
Yeah, right. Steaks made from clones. No potential for "media induced panic" there!
And more ethical. No need to slaughter all those cows now (not that we really need to for our abundant food supply anyway). And there won't be the risk of getting CJD since there should be no neural tissue.
Right CowboyNeal... Geeze this is a "tech" forum. Why not leave the Peta dialogue for forums more suited. When did slashdot become a catch-all?
Religion for nerds. Stuff that really matters
Ok, so many comments, so little time:
/.
"Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat"
Dude. your personal issues do not belong on
That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food
There is an ethical issue? Get real you pansy and eat some steaks. Even the bible says we can eat them (as long as they are uncleaven of hoof). If God didn't have a problem with it, I should?
I was just talking about this the other day as I was enjoying a burrito. I love this idea so much, and yet there are those who find it somehow repulsive.
How can growing meat be seen as more repulsive than the murder assembly lines at slaughterhouses?
My more stable-minded vegetarian friends gladly welcome this - as their food choices are equally health and ethics based.
Don't go thinking that all vegitarians hate the taste of beef. That red meat has got some major building blocks in it - and meat is a very good source of the basic building blocks your body needs.
You can think of meat as "pre-fabricated" building materials for your body - since the animal who owned it before you has already done much of the work needed to convert the raw materials into useful proteins.
I love this idea, I would much rather make my own meat than take it from a nice, innocent bovine who happens to be using it at the moment.
And this actually brings up a somewhat...uh, weird question.
If meat is a great building-block food - and certain meats are better for certain things...then might we design the "perfect" meat for human consumption?...if so, and this is the disturbing part, might we actually splice our own DNA into the transgenic mix?
Could this be considered a form of cannibalism?
Ah the future, so fun to turn everything on it's head.
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Begun, this clone BBQ has.
Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal.
Wouldnt this make the cowboy profession obsolete? And this comming from a self proclaimed cowboy?
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
Haven't McDonald's been serving that for years?
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"That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is."
So these things weren't threats at all (media-induced panic), but you think cloned food is a good idea just because they save us from these non-existent threats? Eh?
Not that I'm afraid of any of those, or that I think cloned beef is a bad idea, but you contradict your reasons for supporting it, do you not?
Damn Interesting ran an article last year about NASA research into vat-grown meat for long space journeys. It points out that "meat developed in this way is essentially a cultured muscle tumor", and so isn't very appetizing:
Vegans avoid that Frankenstein gmo food when ever possible. Dietary vegans aren't vegans. Veganism is about animal rights. Anything else is fakeatarian.
You thought that was beef? That was bef!
What's bef?
My mom says I'm cool.
This isn't using tisue culture to produce prime rib in a vat. This is about taking and using meat as a starting point for cloning another full animal. Sorry, PETA won't like this either, nor will it be safe from prion diseases (since that has more to do with feeding of animals, as opposed to the genetic origin of the critter.
What about cloned sex workers?
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
...as far as I can see, nobody has posted the Bob the Angry Flower comic yet. AWESOMELY funny and somehow totally on topic at the same time :-)
Consciousness is a myth. Trust me.
Cloned beef and cabbage. Yummm!
"Whatever the next media induced panic is" would be the growing of the meat...
can I have some more of your tasty soylent green burgers?
Consider that the dangerous bacteria and viruses you're talking about, would only have a single organism to target, and we'd run the risk of a single lucky virus taking out the world's entire meat supply.
Unless of course, they are right, and there is no evolution- and every organism is the same as it was when the planet was summoned into existence over the course of a particularly shady six day run. In which case, we have nothing to fear, because new viruses are not mutating into existance, and we only need to protect this meat from the dangers that exist right now and just wait until all the mad-cow viruses go extinct.
I'm not sure I want to live in either world, so excuse me while I go take a chew on this helpless animal here.
Why don't we cure cancer first?
Then we can worry about cloning beef.
Popularist Scientists indeed. >:-(
"...end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is."
No media enduced panic for cloned meat products?
Bwaaaah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha~!
Slightly genitically engineered veggies have already been causing controversy for awhile.
I was just thinking: If we started cloning a specific Cow for all our beef needs, why would we still need other cattle? When the price of the cloned beef drops to a reasonable level compared to "natural" beef, the incentive for the old practice is gone. So...what happens then? Would anyone notice if the natural cow went extinct? Would anyone really care?
...but I would like to see them be able to grow chicken skin without the rest of the chicken. Properly prepared and crispified, it's the best part of the bird, clogged arteries be damned!
This poo is cold.
... I'M TIRED OF THOSE M***FU***RS BEEF CLONES IN THOSE M****FU****RS TAKE AWAYS!
Beef Clones on a Take Away, next summer in a cinema near you!
(i'm not yelling stupid lameness filter!)
RTFA.
Then discover that it still involves raising beef, then slaughtering them. In the meantime, they'll also be living on feed lots, and pumped full of hormones and anti-biotics just like they are now. Wonder why you've got nice tits, big boy?
Vegetarians will have great problems with this. If you grow meat in a vat, it's not going to work. You need to have muscle, and that muscle has to be worked. Are you going to run it via an old Compaq running Windows 98? Here: have some of this stuff, we used the 2.6.16 kernel as its muscle exerciser. See how good it tastes on the barbie?
No. Not soon, and not if RTFA.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Why don't we raise suicidal cows?
"Right, now that you've made your decision, I'll just pop off into the kitchen and shoot myself. Don't worry, I'll be very humane!"
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Anyone else read that as "Cloned Beer coming soon"?
People who have no sig are cool
We already have this, although it originated in Japan. It's called Kobe Beef. Only, its one of the most expensive meats on the planet.
I can buy organic beef at my local supermarket for about double the cost of regular beef. There has to be some point between factory farms and organic farms which is still cost effective and can be marketed to the average consumer. We are seeing organic & "air-chilled", "premium" chicken breasts advertised on TV and these are evidently selling very well.
Ethical issues? We've been raising animals for food for thousands of years, it has been one of the keys to our dominance as a species. Don't believe everything PETA tells you.
Electrons are free; it is moving them that becomes expensive.
From dictionary.com:
vegan (vgn, vjn) n. A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.
The dictionary definition doesn't distinguish them, why should we? We have a name for animal rights activists: animal rights activists. You calling someone who doesn't eat meat for diet reasons a "fakeatarian" is elitism, and purposfully insulting. Bad things!!! Just ask Germany. (a leap, I know, but I couldn't think of anything else).
Personally, I have always seen the dietary reasons as some of the best not to eat meat. Eating higher up the food pyramid means it takes more energy to feed you, which is inefficient and a little unfair considering that people starve in this world.
Note: I do eat meat, but that's because I am spoiled and like how it tastes.
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
"I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal."
That's so easy. Just lobotomize the animal soon after it's born, hook it up to electromechanical life support and timed hormone/nutrient injections, and voila!, you have a brain-dead non-entity "cow" making meat for you.
Patent pending.
Deja Food... the feeling that you've had this meal before.
That green slime had it coming.
It's far more likely that textured vegetable protein, which has had millions of years of evolution behind it, will end up be more efficient to produce than grown steaks. Another issue is that the stuff inside steak that's "tasty", also happens to be bad for you if it's a significant portion of your diet. Saturated fats and high protein diets seem to cause long-term issues.
Now, I happen to be vegetarian, but certainly not for your standard ethical reasons. I'm all for animal experimentation, for example. I just find that our country's meat-heavy diet is expensive and inefficient. We're depleting our fresh water aquifers at a rapid rate, trying to grow feed for our cattle. American's waists are expanding, in part from our high-calorie meat diet.
And, to end on a lighter note, here's a funny little story called They're Made Out of Meat that's hysterical.
If they could clone the fat that goes on the steak that makes it taste good I'd eat it. Then I'd use their other device for de-cloning my fat afterwards.
De-cloning. Wait, I've just invented the fat mux/demux. I'm going to be rich!
Task Mangler
My roommates are vegetarians. As soon as they catch wind of this they'll be up in arms about cloning being unethical as well, bah. I eat meat in front of them just out of spite. We've been omnivores since the beginning of time, what's the big deal? I don't see predators in the wild choosing a lovely head of lettuce over a lovely head of human.
"For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three."
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I will forever be a student.
Personally, I'd like to see this progress to the point where we can grow Shakey's Pizza restaurants without the use of embryonic stem cells.
The only truly ethical solution is to genetically engineer a cow that wants to be eaten. Preferably, the cow should be engineered to be sufficiently intelligent to go up to the diner and tell them how delicious it is, and ask them how they would like to eat it.
I am far more concerned about the long term effects on the genetic diversity of our live stock vs is it healthy to eat.
I'm not much for biology, but if you figured out the way that various stem cells are "programmed" to grow into certain structures, couldn't you do it that way? That wouldn't require removing all the genetic information from the genome besides the "meat" portions, it would just require falsifying the messages that assumedly must be sent to stem cells that tell them what structures to develop into.
Of course, I'm not sure that this would produce meat in the conventional sense that we think of it: a bunch of muscle cells in a jar wouldn't taste much like filet mignon, because they wouldn't be formed into those muscular structures, which are then exercised while the animal is alive, have a certain fat content, etc. In short, meat is more than just muscle tissue, it's a part of a particular animal. I have this feeling that the net result of trying to grow meat in jars would be closer to tofu than beef. Maybe it would be acceptable for foods that end up being processed beyond recognition anyway (hamburgers, sausage), but I doubt it would work for beef.
If anyone who's more schooled in biology wants to fill in my misunderstandings, I'd be interested.
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They can grow meat without the cow, and have been able to for some time.
: entertainment.tv.yahoo.com/entnews/wwn/20030516/10 5309720008.html+grow+meat+in+fruit&hl=en&gl=us&ct= clnk&cd=1
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:k_GPfr3r5EAJ
Sadly, that cache is all that I could find of the article, but they have been splicing meat into fruit for a while. At least since 2003. More recently, I heard about them just growing it in sheets, which is probably an easier idea. Meat without animals will be here quite soon. It'll be great. Save the rain forest, ground water, whatever morality may be involed... I mean, it solves a ton of problems, and in the case of animal poop a number of millions of tons.
"Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal. That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is."
It would simply be the end of the cow, pig, lamb, chicken, etc... What farmer in his right mind is going to spend money to raise livestock that is, well, useless and/or worthless, when his land, time, effort and capital can now be put to some other better productive use?
While that certainly will bring to an end any ethical debate, animal cruelty debate, and mass livestock illness rather effectively, (and don't forget how clean the air would be without farting cow methane!) be careful what you wish for.
(Not that I say we shouldn't do it just because of the above -- if we can make it work, we certainly should, but know full well the ramifications of such an action.)
Ed R.Zahurak
You know, oblivion keeps looking better every day.
Pigs get stressed more than most animals when they are housed in high density pens. So there is now a move to selectively breed the "stress" out of pigs. There are also much more advanced methods of slaughter now, such as Temple Grandin's Stairway to Heaven.
The larger problem is actually meat consumption. It takes 12,000 gallons of water to produce a pound of beef... and that's the natural way of growing beef! Imagine doing it in a factory... each pound of beef requires six pounds of corn that could be eaten by us instead. When you look at the numbers for meat, its a depressing story.
Economic and environmental issues dictate that the final solution will be processed foods grown where species can be raised most cheaply. They will probably be adequate as a food source for us, albeit a rather boring one. Not much meat in it. Heavily cooked. Fortified with vitamins and additives to make it worth eating.
If someone else can think up something more interesting and more likely I'm all ears.
...television marketers have figured out how to clone steak knives!
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If you are raising an animal that costs 8x more than a normal cow, then i'm pretty sure it'll be fed well and probably treated pretty humanely.
Wait a sec... Yes! Yes you can!
"Note: I do eat meat, but that's because I am spoiled and like how it tastes."
As a vagitarian I... oh never mind.
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Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal. That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is.
Let's take it to next logical step. Why not clone human flesh? I mean after all there'd be no ethical issues involved with it. They could take those new ethicly created stem cell lines to make human meat. And since breast milk is the best, why clone giant boobies to produce all of our dairy needs. No I see no ethical problems at all.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
The Bush administration has come out firmly against cloning beef since it would result in the destruction of an innocent steak to get the cells needed for cloning. "Each steak is precious and should be treated with respect and barbecue sauce".
There are ethical issues about raising an animal as food?
Jesus Christ on a Pony, who knew???
How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
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You're really gonna hate http://dating.slashdot.org then.
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http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/2 3/056207
1. Genetically engineer Happy Mice
2. Apply techniques to create Happy Cows
3. Clone the best Happy Cows who don't care if they're eaten
4. Make 'Happy' Meal
5. Profit
Phase 1 and 2 complete.
If I was a scientist, you know what I would clone? Hot dogs! Think of all the possibilities, Norm! Imagine, a world with...Hey, what's going on?...Imagine...hold on! Imagine a world with an endless supply of hot dogs! You could have a hot dog anytime you wanted! They'd be so abundant, they'd become our currency! 20 hot dogs would equal roughly a nickel, depending on the strength of the yen, I'm not quite sure, but...you know what, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's just keep praying that we can clone one of these hot dogs.
I saw it on Slashdot, it must be true!
So, As I understand it, a researcher has been able to grow beef muscle cells in vats of shark collogene. The implications are astounding, in that it allows the creation of high quality beef in unlimited (more or less) quantities with only months or days of time invested, rather than years. Also, no killing animals. As a proffesional chef, and a part time geek, The implications are staggering. Imagine, if you will, a beef tenderloin with no veins or silverskin, no EXCESS fat, grown to a specification. The heck with Prime Rib, my restaurant is going to offer 16-20 oz slices off a whole slow roasted tenderloin. A fillet mingion, for lack of a better term, that's 16 inches in diameter, and weighs 20 lbs. Picture the tenderness of muscle that's never been used. It will make Kobe Beef and milk fed veal look tough and stingy by comparison. In short, I'm looking forward to this with great anticipation, and a large bottle of barberque sauce.
Sounds like determining the "best" will be a guess based on less than 48 hours of time, however, the best tasting beef is dry aged from 10-28 days (even the wet aged, vacuum packed, beef is aged for about 7 days). This means this will basically be done by visual inspection grading, not actually tasting anything...
Then you get make this clone of something that might taste good (at least has good fat marbling since that is what they grade on mostly) which you will need to have eat and exercise the exact same way to get the same beef grade. Sounds like the odds are perhaps better than playing dna roulette, but it still seems like a crap shoot to me.
Besides cows have already been genetically sequenced. You can already test them for the "marbling gene" and the "tenderness genes", which means you can sort embryo already. There's no need to clone to get this result. It really just sounds like they are doing this just because they can.
It's called "Trans-cutaneous Electronic Muscle Stimulation" (TEMS) or "Functional Electronic Stimulation" (FES), and contrary to those late-night infomercials for ab exercisers, they are generally accepted not to do anything to stimulate the development of new muscle tissue. I think TENS refers mostly to high-frequency stimulation sometimes used for pain control, and FES is the lower-frequency muscle stimulation.
I have however heard that they are useful in preventing the atrophy of existing muscle, during periods of inactivity. I knew someone who was doing research with them on comatose patients about 30 years ago, trying to see if they prevented tissue degeneration. Not sure of the results or if they still use them that way, though.
But no, in general you can't just hook you biceps up to a TEMS system and look like Ahnold a few weeks later. So I don't think they'd be particularly useful for conditioning vat-meat...but who knows. I'd imagine if there was anything that could actually 'exercise' meat in a vat, it would probably also be effective on conditioning our sedentary butts; whoever makes it will probably have both the farmers and the weight-loss companies beating a path to their door.
A Google Scholar search turned up some interesting stuff:
Effect of transcutaneous electric muscle stimulation on postoperative muscle mass and protein synthesis
MYOSTIM-FES to Prevent Muscle Atrophy in Microgravity and Bed Rest
I can only read the abstracts, but both seem to suggest that the systems can prevent muscle wasting to some degree.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
How can cloned animals be anymore ethical than non-cloned? They are still born (no labs here after conception), raised in a factory in awfull conditions and slaughted.
http://www.goveg.com/f-top10cows.asp (View some of the vids)
I think 90% of you believe this steak will be raise in the test tube... RTFM!!!!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'm all for growing meat in a lab. The more meat, the merrier... but we can't even get farm raise salmon to taste right, what makes us think that meat grown in a lab is going to taste as good as a nice kobe beef ribeye?
Gurgle... meat... gurgle. Damn, now I'm hungry.
Might have the thaw that wild boar bacon I have in the freezer. That stuff is like crack, but with more cholesterol.
Damn, am I the only who read "corn beef" coming soon?
Dang dang. Why isn't it coming soon?
as a result of mad cow disease. It is a serious health risk for many reasons; the big one is that it is untreatable. If you get it, you will die. The deadly human form can only be detected from post-mortem examination. Another reason is that it is spread by prions which can attach to surfaces (grills, utensils, surgical instruments) and cannot be removed by normal sterilization procedures. From the Wikipedia article: 'Unlike other pathogens, prions are not subject to denaturation by protease, HEAT, radiation, and formalin treatments.' (emphasis mine)
The US 80 billion$ beef industry is obviously concerned - but not about the health of beef consumers. They do massive damage control while continuing to duck inspections and responsibility.
The major media outlets have of course botched coverage by sensationalizing mad cow disease rather than educating the public in an objective manner. Fear brings in more viewers than facts. Mad cow disease is, unfortunatly, the real deal.
Where:
S = number of steaks grown in vats without animals attached
e = number of ethical issues resolved by vat-steaks
B = number of brains grown in vats without animals attached
E = number of ethical issues raised by brain-in-a-jar technology
.... of raising cloned beef that we should be f'ing reading?
It's extremely unlikely that any of those species would go extinct... there would always be a market for people who prefer the "real item", and even ignoring that there would be wild pigs, sheep grown for wool, animals raised as pets or as a hobby, research animals, etc.
There would probably be 99% less of those species, but that's probably a good thing.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Gives a new meaning to having a double cheeseburger!
I'm just waiting for the day that we stop raising millions of plants for slaughter. Just because they are a "lower" life form, animals think it is ok to kill them by the billions. Often eating them while they are still alive. Human in perticular are known for raising these peaceful life forms packed tightly together in the most unnatural ways. While cows have been known to kill a human now and then, showing they at least could have a fighting chance, plants are 99.999% pacifists. Never actively attacking a human. When will the murderous vegitarian agenda end? When will they stop arbitrarily choosing what life is worthy of murder and what life is not?
Seeing as how muscle doesn't do much unless it's connected to a bone, and bones add a significant amount of flavor to meat when it's cooked, I propose growing meat on some sort of minimal animal-like thing. Like a rat, for example: an insanely muscular rat, with haunches like hams. Then the flavor could be modified with further genetic engineering, to taste like prime rib or bacon-wrapped scallops. Delicious.
It sounds demented, but that's kind of the trend with our existing meat and poultry: Domestic chickens are much more muscular than wild or fighting chickens, and turkeys are also ridiculously proportioned. Look how small their heads are, it's sick. So if we apply modern genetic engineering to the problem, I think we could easily produce an animal that's almost the meat equivalent of a fruit.
That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is
Oh, you just mean the stuff like heart disease (the number 2 killer in the US) and cancer? Yeah, in the long run if you've stopped eating beef because of the fear of mad cow disease than you're just fooling yourself about the real effects of meat. That's akin to stopping smoking because of some freak accident where a fuel leak caused an explosion that killed someone while neglecting the truth behind cancer, heart disease, emphysema and the general decline in well being caused by smoking.
This aside the question comes down to a number of other factors that some vegetarians choose the path; the fuel and grain consumption it takes to produce beef is outrageous. I can't say anything for how they will "grow" this meat but how much will it really take to produce it compared to the same quantity of grain or other vegetable matter? This is like fuel cell cars... it's not a question of does it work it's a question of oil based fuels still being more economical because of the very high costs associated with the production of hydrogen. As many will point out, you still need to burn fossil fuels to harvest hydrogen in any great quantity today. Maybe, someday, renewable fuel sources will produce enough excess energy to produce hydrogen in high enough quantities to make fuel cell cars economically and environmentally viable in comparison to what we have today. If this "guilt free meat" takes as much to produce as ten times the same amount in grains we're not really making any real headway aside from the potential question of the killing of animals.
Why don't we just selectively breed animals to want us to eat them?
Apology to Douglas Adams
geek page at KY speaks
Cloned beef would certainly taste the same every time that you ate it. If your family is a Meat and Potatos family, you're definitely not going to like it when scientist clone the potato.
The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
Beef, it's cloned for dinner!
Many of us obtain some of our nutrients from vitamins, but I don't see huge ethical, medical, etc. issues with this.
... easier customization of our nutrition. I say go for it, but test the hell out of it.
The vitamin A we get in our multivitamin is a synthetic version of what we see in our fruits and veggies. It is chemically identical to the vitamin A found naturally. Similarly, a lot of people get their protein from whey powders.
If anything, cloning beef should be seen as advantage due to an easier ability to place tighter regulations of quality control, and the end result of that, as lot of people have said, include beef free of biological contamination. This also facilitates controlling how much fat, protein, iron, etc. that we want our beef
I hate how so many people assume something natural is automatically better than anything else.
People are not starving in this world because I eat meat, there is more then enough food produced worldwide to feed everyone. Feeding the poor however is not profitable and since most of the countries that produce a major food surplus do so for a profit(US) they simply are not going to give that away when the income it provides can be used to fund such things as invading said starving nation for its natural resources. Huh, that turned way more political than I wanted it to...
"To face death, that's nothing much. But to feel really stupid when you die, well, that would be insufferable."
Somehow I thought only one cow could truly be the best.
You can't label every little thing, so unless there is a provable health reason to do so, labels should not be required.
This reminds of one of crappy sci-fi B movie i saw last year ... http://www.scifi.com/larva/
Enjoy your.. meaty fate!
Which is why it is only a little unfair, and I only feel a little guilty.
I give bread to the poor, they call me a saint.
I ask why the poor have no bread, they call me a communist.
Sometimes the desire to criticize evil profit-doers can lead to neglecting relevant evidence, such as the fact that the US does indeed provide quite a lot of food aid. Over 4000 metric tons in 2005 (pdf), for instance. Besides, it's a *surplus*.
... there's an easier way than cloning beef. Just stop eating meat.
Vanuatu has cows which spend their entire lives in the jungle, without access to modern growth hormones, antibiotics, or GMO feed.
Australian cows get their antibiotics and hormones, but usually eat non-GMO feed because noone here believes in genetics.
US beef has full access to all the modern conveniences.
Now, has anyone in Northern America ever eaten a steak without cheese sauce? Or any sauce for that matter? No gravy? No garlic butter, no pepper, no salt?
Australian beef is pretty good without sauce, but you haven't really had a good steak until you've had the local product in Vanuatu.
Maybe I'm biased, but then I never really understood the point of sauces with steak until I visited the USA. Sigh...
So if you're going to clone beef, or grow it in a vat, or whatever, at least start with a decent cow.
With each breath in, a flower somewhere opens; with each breath out, a flower withers away. In between lies beauty.
"That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is." There is nothing that will ever end media induced panic. The media could make someone with a gallon of valium and heroin in their veins panic.
I eat a lot of imitation tofu. I'm personally opposed to cruelty to soybeans. So I eat tofu substitutes made from chicken, beef, pork...
I'd say nothing beats a roadkill sandwich.
(Come to think of it, that's a pretty good explanation of how Nazism arose in the first place...)
erm, I said what? oh shit...
you clone beef. In Soviet Russia, beef clones you!
Last time something truly horrible happened to the food we eat, we got BSE. We had cows eat "processed" meat-by-products. That feed had been heat processed, and contained other dead animals. It turns out the heat didn't destroy a little protein structure called a prion, and an abundance of this substance destroyed the protein substances in the brain, leaving large cavities. The prion also multiplied, and eventually killed off the animal.
This hadn't happened if we hadn't turned a herbivore into a carnivore.
This disease was later passed to humans, where it is called Creuzfeld-Jacobs syndrome.
Are people really entertaining the idea that trying to grow cows in vats is a good idea? We can't even change their feed without goofing up.
Lean steaks are also tasty. The 'dangers' of fat are vastly overrated, the body needs fats to function properly. You'll find that excessive carbohydrates will do you more harm than anything. And a lack of protein is more dangerous than too much. You can eat 200g of protein a day without ill effect, but eat less and you end up losing significant strength.
Americans are fat because of too many processed foods filled with starch and sugar. The general health of Americans would be better if they cut out the donuts, cokes cakes, breads etc. and replaced them with more natural foods like steak, chicken and lamb. You only have to look at the sagging arms of most Americans to see they're not eating too much protein!
Meat is not expensive or inefficient. There is enough land for everyone to have enough meat, no-one in America is starving. People probably eat less meat now than ever, so talk about depleting at rapid rates is sheer scaremongering.
Why is that a good thing? The cruelty's where all the flavor comes from!
There are no genetic diversity issues since its the same set of genes used over and over; nothing is being bred, its being cloned.
An interesting issue I find about this is that if it is done economically and successfully, there is really no more need for cattle farms or the infrastructure to support them. Or pigs or chickens for that matter, or fishing. It wouldn't be long before farming gets outlawed worldwide as cruel and unusual.
So pigs, cattle, livestock generally would no longer serve a purpose, and would be allowed to become extinct, since they couldn't survive in the wild after so many millenia of domestication. All that land would then be freed up for different purposes, although a stupendous amount of people would become unemployed.
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
"About" had a stroke? Didn't Atkins himself actually have one?
Ignoring the issues of monocropping your meat supply (duh!), there is another issue here. Food production in the west already takes far more calories to make it than we get out of eating it - several orders of magnitude - so anything which requires even more technical intervention to make the meat is wholly unwelcome. What it comes down to is that most of those calories derive eventually from oil (some fertilizers, pesticides, fuel for machinery and transport etc) so we've really just got an incredibly inefficient method of turning oil into food. Not good when the oil is running out and causing prices to go up. And up. And up.
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
actually only a single one out of all animals can be the best as not two animals can be equally good.
Us plebs would be scoffing down crappy cloned meat which will probably kill us, whilst execs in their skyscrapers will be licking real organic gravy off the tits of $3000 call girls.
Maybe I'm thinking too cyberpunk here.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
I'll bet there is a market for human meat though. If human meat was grown in this fashion, I would assume there are enough people who are curious enough to try it (without any ethical issues of dead people being involved). mmmmm manburger.
Warhammer forums
tagged this story "beefbeef". And damnit, that's good enough to qualify for copyright protection. Beefbeef (TM) is noew the sole property of TACNailed! Eat it!
For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat three.
I find this topic funny altogether! Everyone always fusses about how the human species uses other "innocent" species for our own ends... such as survival. The interesting part is that, from an evolutionary viewpoint, we are not using cows or any other species any more than "they" are using us. After all, by feeding on chicken, for instance, we have created huge infrastructures that have allowed chicken to be, perhaps, more numerous that humans, turning them (again, from an evolutionary viewpoint) more successfull than the human species. Furthermore, we invest a great deal of resources to improve theses species, as oposed to what we do with our own (yes, shocking as it may be, medicine has spoiled natural selection for us). So, if you come to think of it, could it be that our livestock is actually using US?
Er... yeah, except for the fact the tofu contains polyunsaturated fats to cause heart disease (in excess), phytates to hinder mineral and nutrition absorbtion and phyto-estrogens to mess with our hormones. I don't think tofu is cultured enough or commonly comes from good soybeans to minimize the bad items these days.
:)
All three of which are much worse for you than the (SARCASM)oh-so-evil-and-deadly(/SARCASM) saturated fat and cholesterol contained in actual meat.
I shall reiterate it, I for one welcome our new cloned beef overlords!
There is a great 'speculative fiction' novel by Margaret Atwood called Oryx and Crake where they have genetically engineered chicken to be just masses of flesh that you can 'harvest' meat from. They have no brain or heads...just the necessary organs to let the meat grow.
They call them Chicki-knobs, which is still my favourite word to describe things like chicken McNuggets and Big Macs.
She also wrote about pigoons, which are fictional transgenic creatures that look much like domestic pigs, but their DNA has been spliced with human genetic information and they have been engineered to grow multiple organs for transplants.
It still leaves open the issue of expending the extra resources to eat 'higher up' on the food chain/energy pyramid. Americans currently eat in excess of 3 pounds of meat a week, way more than is nutritionally neccesary, each pound of meat represents about 10 pounds of corn or grain, growing the meat in a dish is not going to significantly change this ratio. Even a small cut back in weekly consumption represents a huge increase in food availabitity.
BTW, I say all this as a card carrying carnivore, it just seems worthwhile to be at least a little bit aware of the consequences.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
Animal 57.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I don't accept the idea that the cow would be happier never living. Never having been a cow, I can't really say. But to me, it seems ethically stronger to raise the cow as a creature (under reasonable conditions) rather than a meat culture.
(I don't think this is what the article is discussing anyway.)
-Dave
Actually Cloning already occurs in cows though it isn't "Old Cell" cloning. It is embryo splitting and has been done for 20 years or more.
In agriculture the holy grail is this genetically perfect item that does only what you want it to do 100% efficiently and every time. There are several serious problems with achieving this. The first is that the production of a genetically identical crop base becomes a 100% threat of pathogens exploiting a weakenss and wiping out 100% of the crop in one fell swat. This is already becoming a serious threat. Then you get into the economic issues.
If you can grow the famous bug free 100% efficient crop (It really doesn't matter what it is) and have it match the market 100% then you have the goal of the farmers. At this point the farmer earns exactly nothing because there is no skill involved, and there is no cost differential to his competitors and such. This has happened to a great extent in Cotton, Corn, Wheat and Soy. With the advent of the perfect Cotton, production rose 5 times per acre and the price dropped by 2/3rds. The result was almost collapse of any profits in farming cotton and all the profits went to the seed companies.
As the "perfect chicken" invaded the chicken houses similar situations happend to the profits in raising chickens. The industry has reached a point of nearly zero profits. If this happens in cattle then the industry will be reduced to having literally no profits for the farmers. They will have achieved the magical world where they don't have to work hard to make the perfect crop and well they will have created themselves out of a job.
Those who don't like this economic reality had best start figuring out a new way to live because this is logically the holy grail of all the economic development types. It really doesn't matter what you do, they are trying to produce this situation. It strikes me of a situation where you are cured of what you suffered from and suffering from the cure.
Don't take this as negative to the proposals, just as a report of conditions. Have fun with what you do with this reality. We are going to see a lot more of it.
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
There are a couple of holes in this plan:
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal
I've wondered for a long time whether this isn't coming close. They've made progress with growing specific cell cultures on a dissolvable mesh substrate, which helps ensure the proper structures grow and such. Though I also wonder if meat, simply grown as a culture of cells, might not have the right consistency or taste, since it's only ever sat there. It might actually need to be worked, to actually function as a muscle, in order to be edible / enjoyable.
We could solve that by periodically zapping it with electricity, though the image of rows and rows of shallow pans with porterhouse steaks randomly jumping up into the air, while men in white lab coats carrying clipboards walk around and observe, is something that I just find...spooky.
Only if you venture out into the wild armed with nothing but a spear and a loincloth, hunt down the animal, and stuff yourself with its still-warm raw flesh at the site of the kill.
Why back in my day we had to rassle 'em down with rocks and our bare hands. And we liked it!!
Cloned beef? Only the best quality meat?
I think there's a lot of unanswered questions and doubtful points in this. First of all, however, as far as I can see they are not talking about growing tissue in a laboratory, they are talking about clenes, like the cloned sheep 'Dolly' (or whatever tha name was). This means that they are simply producing a calf embryo and let it grow the usual way. So this is not the fabled end to all hunger and malnutrition; rather, it's just another exercise in meaningless luxury. Or perhaps they hope in the future to be able to produce a kind of cow that is always the same, and which possesses characteristics that make it easy to produce and process.
Another thing is, the quality of meat depends on a lot of things other than genetics, most of which we can only exert limited control over, even if we know what they are. The sort of feed the animal eats, its health, amount of exercise etc etc. Plus, the treatment of the meat after slaughter. And, of course, what one person thinks of as good meat may not be what another one likes.
On top of all that comes the fact that meat isn't actually all that good for you, particularly red meat. It clogs up your arteries, overloads the kidneys with things like uric acid, apparently gives you cancer as well etc etc. Don't believe me? Well, all I know is, I used to eat loads of meat all my life and ended up with a host of nice nice things like gout and kidney problems. Now I hardly touch meat - and all those problems are gone.
The US sends tons of food to areas of the world where the people need it. However, the food doesn't get to much of those people as the local governments restrict the food to the people to retain their control of them. If the people are fed they have energy, if they have energy they can rebel, if they can rebel they will overthrow those who are keeping them impoverished. I know that is fairly simplistic, but the facts don't veer far from my synopsis.
...the other white meat!
Steve
p.s. feel free to insert other racial jokes as appropriate.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
Beef has been cloned for years now. Not the Dolly the sheep adult cell variety, but cloning nonetheless. Reasearchers at Texas A&M were dividing blastocyst from a particularly favoravble mating and then artificially inseminating the resulting embryos in order to increase the breeding stock of a prefered line.
.. You can afford strange hobbies.
Do you realize exactly how much money and effort has gone into PETA marketing? Exactly how much time, love, caring, adn devotion those who work for the Meat is Murder cause have put in over the years?
;)
Just to have you throw it all away...
With your cursed science...
But think of the contrast, this could have religious extremists and PETA on the SAME SIDE in an arguement
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
Cultured cells can grow virus just as easily as in vivo cells. Even easier, since they don't have the benefit of a thymus or bone marrow. That's why we learned how to culture cells in the first place.
...What happens when we try to make things? Look at what us humans have created:
o Cars
o Computers
o condoms
Everything we make is prone to breaking and screwing up. All we'll end up doing is replacing "Mad Cow Disease" with "Mad Meat Disease".
-- If we don't stand up for our rights, now, there will be no right to stand up for them later.
Yum!
See this entry on Chicken Little.
The Space Merchants is still available here. The equally entertaining sequel, The Merchant's War appears to be out of print.
IX CCXLIX XVII II CLVII CXVI CCXXVII XCI CCXVI LXV LXXXVI CXCVII XCIX LXXXVI CXXXVI CXCII
It sounds like a good idea initially, have the best beef and chicken, and the best-of-breed pets in the house. But they would all be equally vulnerable to an outbreak of a disease. Imagine if the entire bovine population of a country is wiped out.
Thats less scary than the entire crops of several countries wiped out, but either would trigger some starvation. Not only that, the genetic variation would irretrievably be lost (unless someone starts cataloging samples now) and after a major outbreak we might never have beef again!
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
I guess you can say the exact thing about buying vegetables, fruit, and berries as well. In other words, unless you happen to run around in the bush manually strangeling unfortunate bypassing woodland creatures or harvest the plants by hand, then your diet is unnatural?
Not that I don't understand what you mean, but you're presenting a pretty moot point.
The view was horrible and the smell was even worse; Julie severely regretted becoming a proctologist.
True, being tasty can be a big benefit to a species survival in some ways.
If we move to a cloned, vat-grown beef society, we will no longer spend massive amounts of money and land raising cows.
They'll be as rare as mountain lions. And not nearly as cool.
Cowboy Neal writes: "Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal. That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food, potential issues from mad cow disease, bird flu and whatever the next media induced panic is." The answer is already here it is called soy! It comes as textured vegtable protein or TVP. It uses far less land to grow than beef per person fed. Try it sometime, it take on any flavor you want to add to it. I use taco seasoning packets.
I'm not suffering from Insanity. I'm enjoying every moment of it!
"Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal."
Ummmmm! Novartis and Wyeth Corp make the BEST steaks!
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
does that mean that we can't eat you?
Sincerely,
Dr. Lecter
The view was horrible and the smell was even worse; Julie severely regretted becoming a proctologist.
Hey, you won't get any arguments here. I too think some of the city planning decisions around water are pretty crazy.
There's been some minor wars fought over water rights, and certainly a number of court battles. The big thing right now is the midwest where they no longer allow people to drill new wells in some areas. In eastern Oregon (near where I live), water management is central to property management. If you can't irrigate your property, it's basically scrub.
If someone has an ethical issue with eating meat then they should be a vegetarian. Otherwise that would make one a hypocrite wouldn't it? I used to have that issue until one day I realized that I am what I am. I am human which means I take from this planet to survive. Humans are much more parasitic then they let on. This is what we do and to deny it while chomping down on a burger is hypocritical. If you want to take the high road then I commend you but Go ahead, eat your headless lab grown meat, just get it the hell off my plate.
I guarantee a hungry mountain lion wouldn't have any ethical issues with eating a PETA member, or any other person for that matter. People get angry about the dumbest things. We have an entire country on the brink of starvation and completely isolated from the rest of the world (North Korea), a nutcase in Iran who thinks it's his personal mission to usher in the Islamic version of the Apocalypse and bring the rest of the world under fundamentalist Islamic rule, our neighbor to the south deliberately unloading all of their lower class citizens on us while we the American taxpayer foot the bill for their cradle-to-grave social services, and yet some people still find the time and energy to feel guilty about their position on the food chain. Rubbish!
We have to eat every m*****f****ing steak on this m*****f****ing plane!
f u cn rd ths u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmng
we're all gonna die
I truely feal for the poor brocoli spears and other plants that are ruthlessly chopped down at the prime of their lives! They can't even run from it. They can only stand there and watch as the blade gets closer and closer!
That was my bad; I meant to write "bulls" or "bull calves" I think. Although if you look at the timestamp on that post, it might explain part of the problem. :)
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
If you have ethical issues about raising animals for food, I would love to hear what animals are for (I mean the tasty ones).
If you clone an corgaincally fed cow's meat would the package read..
100% Orgainically grown animal cruelty free cloned beef like substitute
Eat recycled food, it's great for the envronment and OK for you!
That would end all the ethical issues with raising an animal for food
...wait for it... all of the ethical issues of having a incomplete living organism produce your food. It's alive, but it's not a cow. It's muscle but it's not moving. The list goes on and on...
Yeah, except for
"The 'dangers' of fat are vastly overrated, the body needs fats to function properly"
Yes, we need very little fat though. Most people eat FAR more than needed, and we don't need any saturated fat, which is much worse for us, and is what you get from meat.
"You'll find that excessive carbohydrates will do you more harm than anything."
No, excessive calories from any source will make you fat. Excessive carbs that break down to glucose very quickly will spike your blood sugar, and its theorized that that may increase the risk of diabetes. The vast majority of the people in the world live almost entirely on carbs, and the human race has lived that way for thousands of years. Meat has been an added boost to our diet, only available in small quantities. Grains like rice have sustained people.
"You can eat 200g of protein a day without ill effect, but eat less and you end up losing significant strength."
No, you will need to increase your calcium intake if you do something stupid like this. Protein is broken down into amino acids for use. They are not stored however, and since even marathon runners and body builders do not need more than 70-80g of protein per day, the rest is broken down further from amino acids into, *gasp*, sugars. The process of breaking down proteins releases acids however, which your body neutralizes with calcium. So increased protein can lead to weak bones. This is why all the "eat more calcium" studies are done with calcium suppliments, not milk which has little to no benefit due to the protein.
"but eat less and you end up losing significant strength."
Protein does not magically make you strong. Your body only makes muscle if it wants to. It only wants to if you use what you have, or have a rare disease that makes your body go nuts and always build your muscle. Even still, nobody needs more than 70-80g a day. You only need to eat as much as your body needs to repair your existing tissues, and create any new tissue it wants to create.
"You only have to look at the sagging arms of most Americans to see they're not eating too much protein!"
Again, protein does not make you strong. Its simple one of the basic building blocks required to create tissues. Excercise makes you strong. And most americans already eat far more protein than they need, as the RDA is 50-55g for women, and 60-65g for men. That means 98% of americans would get enough protein eating that amount. At many restaurants, a single burger contains more protein than that.
"The general health of Americans would be better if they cut out the donuts, cokes cakes, breads etc. and replaced them with more natural foods like steak, chicken and lamb"
They already eat fucktons of meat. They need to cut out the shit you mentioned, cut back on their meat, quit deep frying all their meat (and potatoes), and start eating vegetables and fruits. Replacing high calorie foods like donuts with high calorie foods like steak is not going to make people lose weight.
"Meat is not expensive or inefficient. There is enough land for everyone to have enough meat, no-one in America is starving."
Yes, it is very expensive and inefficent. We would get 10 times more calories from the land we use for raising beef cattle if we used it for crops like corn, rice, wheat, legumes, etc. We are filthy rich compared to other countries, so we have the luxury of being greedy and wasteful while they starve.
Go read any basic intro to biochem and you will see how incredibly stupid your comment was.
How can you be sure that meat doesn't have feelings?
STEAKS ON A PLANE!!
... it's how the cows are raised and treated. I've dined on cows grazed freely and fed grass and grain in the Austrian Alps, and it simply can't compare to the beef from a cow that was simply fattened up with no thought to its well-being, simply to increase profits.
Also, a friend of mine raises calves each year, and they're also free-grazed, grain-fed, and cared for properly. You simply *can not* go to a supermarket and find beef like this, no matter how much you pay. And guess how much the cost works out to, including the steaks, sirloins, filets, etc.: $2.00 per pound.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
"If we didn't have a tribal taboo about the matter so strong that you honestly believed it was an instinct, I can think of a long list of people I wouldn't trust with my back turned, not with the price of beef what it is today."
"however, the best tasting beef is dry aged from 10-28 days (even the wet aged, vacuum packed, beef is aged for about 7 days). "
actually, no. That is the best way to prepare beef. You still need good meat.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Personally I'd love to see us progress to the point where it was possible to grow just the meat itself without the animal.
No big shocker, it's already been patented!:
Method for Producing Tissue Engineered Meat for Consumption
Could this technique also be used to enlarge one's penis?
I buy meat from the farmers near my city at the weekly farmers' market. It costs more than grocery store meat, and astronomically more than fast-food meat, but I know exactly what I'm getting. This means I eat a lot less meat, but that's fine by me - there's many other foods out there that'll give you the necessary elements. I buy much less of this more expensive meat specifically because of the process by which the animals are raised. Basically, the farmers get a bunch of animals, let them go out and be their natural selves, and then decidedly unnaturally slaughter them when they're big enough to be dinner. Of course they take care of their wards during the process, but this process also doesn't involve cramming tens of thousands of animals into confined spaces and jamming them full of food their bodies were not designed to digst, resulting in fucked-up animals that require heavy doses of antibiotics, growth hormones, and other drugs to grow to the required size -- to say nothing of what the creatures themselves must experience in such a setting. I don't want that crap in my body, and I want no part of any business that treats animals in that way. Did I mention that traditionally-raised meat actually tastes better? Go try a steak from a farm that has happy and healthy animals more or less living their natural animal lives. Then go try the same cut of meat from Wal-Mart or something for 1/5th the price. You'll very quickly taste the difference in quality.
20+ hours, and still no dead beef jokes.
(IANAL)
The single biggest period of growth in humans, and when they have the biggest protein requirement is as an infant. Human breast milk is 8% calories from protein. The idea that older humans, who need less protein proportionally would need 40% protein is absolutely ridiculous. Grow a brain and think dumbass.
The cows we eat are not eating grass. They eat a corn, soy bean, and "slurry" combo (often fish meal now, used to be other cows) designed to provide high calories and protein, so that they can keep up with the hormone induced rapid growth. They are then given anti-biotics because the corn based diet is not digested properly by cattle, leading to their stomach's PH being messed up, and allowing infections to take hold in their digestive tract. We use land that is perfectly good for human food to grow corn and soy beans for cattle feed. Acting like the tiny fraction of 1% of beef cattle that actually get to graze are normal, and not the "free range, organic, 3 times the price" specialty they really are is dishonest and irresponsible.
OK, so now know why all those cattle mutilations are happening, Sizzler and Outback he're we come!
don't test your brain
Helping impoverished societies involves keeping the people alive, yes. This is done by improving their efficiency so that they can do less damage and get more gain with the same amount (or less) of distress. It also removes the waste they'd leave behind by dying. This all makes the situation economically and socially more equal. The benefitees actually get some free time to wax all philosophical in, and enough resources to do optional (social) stuff.
Just dumping gear on them by the pallet-load, she's a not gunna work. Never has, and can't see why it should mysteriously gain functionality just now.
Yes, PP's view is skewed towards "electronics == technology" but that doesn't make your view rational or reasonable either. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Go read any semi-rational page on veggo eating [that one Googled at random], and discover that it brings...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
One step closer to Project Eden
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.