Repair Computer, Repurchase OS?

An anonymous reader asks: "Recently, I have been bit by a computer repair on an e-Machines computer that involved a system board replacement. Though this was strictly a repair, not an upgrade, neither MS or e-Machines will provide for activation of the system. Why should a user have to purchase another copy of XP after repairing a computer? The system board is listed on the e-Machines website, but costs 4x what an off-the-shelf board with the same chip-set/capabilities costs, and furthermore is not actually available. The e-Machines rep even said repurchasing XP was my only option. This seems to me patently unfair and of questionable legality. Is it possible that there are enough disgruntled consumers bit by this problem to generate a class-action lawsuit?"

Comments

Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Randolpho]

Seriously, have you talked to Microsoft yet? I've had the same or similar problems in the past, and had no trouble getting a new key issued. Just call them up. They might surprise you.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ditto. It's easy and takes around 15 minutes - call the 800 number that the activation screen presents to you, put in the number that it gives you, wait for it to say it cannot activate it and for it to bring on a real person for further help, explain what happened and they'll provide you a number for that. Works like a charm for me.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[FoamingToad]

Agreed. Talk to them. What does the OP have to lose?

In fact I recently had a pretty identical case to the original poster's query. A friend's e-machine had a blown mobo + processor due to a faulty PSU. I changed the parts across, booted, hit the product activation, phoned the Freephone support number and I didn't even need to speak to a person - the IVR system doled out a new activation code with no hassle.

Admittedly, if the activation hadn't gone as planned I'd just have dug out my VLK edition and performed an in-place upgrade...

F_T

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

I deal with this frequently.

Try to activate online
When it rejects and gives you the phone number, call it
Enter the confirmation ID

When you finally get someone from Bangladesh on the phone, they will ask if this is the first time it's been activated, and how many computers it's been installed on.

REGARDLESS of what work you've done, tell them "It's a reinstall after a virus infection.. This is the only machine it's installed on"

They'll give you a long ass number to punch in, and you're done.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[morgan_greywolf]

You're right.

The article poster might want to refer to this page on computer repair, which covers the OEM license. Generally, Microsoft will not require a new OS license for a motherboard replacement that is truly a replacement (i.e., same OEM/model). If you're trying to replace the box with a non-OEM motherboard, you're hosed, because this is not in compliance with the OEM license agreement, which is different from the retail EULA.

If you're replacing with the same/equivalent OEM motherboard, then just state immediately that the repair/upgrade was made in compliance with the OEM EULA right away, as this will save you a lot of time and hassle.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[SatanicPuppy]

You're right. I replaced a hard drive, motherboard, ram, sound, and graphics card on one system, and all I had to do was call them and say, "No, my copy of XP is not installed on any other system" and they game me a reactivation code.

My copy of XP isn't OEM though, which may be an issue...Still, that's about as big an upgrade as you can get and they didn't even blink.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[scuba_steve_1]

I built an entirely new PC after a motherboard fried on an older HP Pavilion. I attempted to use the license key stuck on the side of the fried HP, but the OS would not activate. I called the telephone number that the OS presented on the activation failure screen and was connected to tech support in India, who were very helpful. I simply needed to tell them that the OS was no longer on the old PC and they issued me a new activation key over the phone.

BTW, I did not tell them that it was a new PC...I stated that I just replaced the motherboard since I wasn't sure how they would react, but honestly, I had the license and it was no longer in use so I felt that the request for the new key was justified. In fact, I think MS agrees...which is why the have a NEW policy for Vista - you are allowed to transfer the OS to a new PC (or motherboard) once...and then you are done...time for a new license. Blech. One of the many reasons to stick with XP as long as possible.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[hey!]

On the other hand for retail windows, you should be able to. I know I've done MB replacements and reactivated via phone call.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[hurfy]

Same here.

Replaced a MB on my homebuilt with the closest match available and had to call em to explain but no real problems with my XP OEM.

What exactly did MS say?

If the board is so much, would another board and another OEM XP be cheaper. Not that i believe it is needed. Replacing it with the nearest match available really should be enough.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Jesterboy]

One thing is, the people in India handling the activation really don't care too much, and, as long as you don't volunteer certain information, will happily hand out the magic 42 digit number that makes everything work. I've even used this to transfer an XP OEM license to an entirely different computer (shhh!).

However, it sounds like the problem is coming from the install media; perhaps a partition on the drive that copies over a disk image, or maybe an OEM install that checks for the correct hardware? I think the best thing to do would be to go download/find/borrow a real Windows XP disk of the correct "flavor"; probably Home, possibly Media Center, etc. If he does have the actual disk, he could try creating a pre-install environment using BartPE and then adding in the extra drivers for his mobo, but it's probably better to just find a disk.

Once he actually gets it installed, he'll probably have trouble activating it, which will involve calling Microsoft and going through the following song and dance:
1. Give the computer your product key.
2. It will fail, and transfer you to a representative.
3. They ask for the last 6 digits you gave to the automated system; give it to them and state you are reinstalling Windows XP.
4. They will ask you several questsions, answer as follows:
a) Is it installed only on this computer? Yes.
b) Did you pirate the software or (sometimes) are you using the same OEM disk? Yes.
c) Are you reinstalling Windows XP? Yes.

Usually at this point they will give you the magic 42 digit number to make your computer yours again. Occasionally, they will ask about hardware upgrades, in which case you have two options: 1) tell them the truth and don't get your copy to activate, or 2) outright lie. If your scruples won't let you do the latter, you can tell the representative you have something else to go do (probably true), and call back later, hoping for a less diligent employee. As I stated above, I've used this process to switch Windows XP Home OEM licenses to computers with entirely different hardware, so I can't imagine a motherboard giving you too much trouble.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[NekoXP]

Whenever I've done it, it's taken far, far less time than 15 minutes.

Anyone who complains that they need to reactivate their system and is worried about having to "justify" it to Microsoft is talking shit. 3 minutes with barely 3 bars of hold music, you get to an operator - "I had to replace my graphics card because it exploded", or "my laptop died and Sony repaired it" - both real events here, and they shrug and say "thanks".

It's just so they can enter it into their logs on how things are used. I think it's more market research than antipiracy. At the end of the day a pirate will NEVER call the 1-800 number, so if you ARE calling up with a legit key, they are happy to assist. And, like I said, it's barely 3 minutes.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[gEvil (beta)]

b) Did you pirate the software or (sometimes) are you using the same OEM disk? Yes.

Sounds like a brilliant plan.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[maxwells_deamon]

No, the policy of one transfer is not correct.

OEM licenses are never supposed to be transfered unless it is an underwaranty repair. However, the transfer can be done if you sweet talk the Microsoft contractor. I think that if a client of mine got stuck this way, I would tell MS I had an extended waranty contract with them.

There was a policy announcement for Vista that full copies could only be transfered once, the outcry about this was such that MS announced that is was a mistake and that things would go back to the XP policy

Microsoft seems to be mostly interested in keeping wholesale piracy from occuring.

I do have a client who, when he couldn't activate the the license, called MS. They asked him some questions about the fine print numbers on the center of the CDROM! Not 100% sure what was going on as I was told about this after the fact but it did work eventually.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[WED Fan]

I smell serious BS on this one.

I have 3 machines with various flavors of XP. Each has undergone significant upgrade, update, repair in the past 5 years. At no time have I had to re-purchase the O.S.

I was able to move an install of XP from a dead desktop to a laptop and then a year later, back to a new desktop (I installed Linux, temporarily on the laptop before ditching it). All it took was a phone call each time and an explanation of why I was moving the install.

This person is, either:

• Lying about the whole thing in an effort to flamebait an MS discussion
• Bought the eMachine from someone with a pirated copy of the OS
• Purposely installed a pirated copy that he may/may not have paid for
• Is not diligent enough to actually deal with MS
• Is dealing with a brain dead computer store pseudo-geek (really, if they are that good, they can get a much better job, the computer store geek is to real geeks what MacDonald cooks are to Chefs)
• Just a liar

Even a /. editor should have spotted this one.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Emetophobe]

I've had to phone Microsoft's re-activation line over 3 times in the past 12 months, and let me tell you that each time, the automatic "enter your 49 digit number" part fails everytime. It's annoying having to enter in that long series of numbers, knowing that it will come back everytime and say "Sorry, blah blah, we'll redirect you to a real person, blah blah". Every time I phone, it's the same thing, enter your 49 digit number, almost instantly it tells me it failed, get redirected to live person in India, tell them the first 6 digits from the 49 digit number, that's it, maybe they ask me why I am re-activating, I say "because I am upgrading hardware", they ask no further questions and my copy is activated.

Sure it's a pain in the ass, but it's not all that bad. The most annoying part is having to enter that 6 * 9 digit number (49 total), knowing full well that the automated system doesn't work and I get redirected to a person. It would probably only take 2 minutes instead of 5 minutes if I didn't have to deal with their automated system.

Now I just use Acronis and make an image of a Fresh Windows install (with all updates + activation), that way if I ever want to reinstall, just load the image and it's already activated and relatively up to date, no need to go through their Indian phone support.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Jesterboy]

Teaches me to attempt to comment before my morning coffee...^_^ I meant to write "Are you using an original, non-pirated/copied version of the software", but it got lost somewhere between my brain and the keyboard.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[diskis]

Greetings from software support. Not microsoft though.

People _do_ call in with pirated software, and lie about it.

People claim the activation key that has been used about 20.000 times is theirs and not downloaded from the Internet.
They claim the software came with their computer, even though that software has never been sold/bundled from the company I work at.
"No, I didn't drop my laptop, the screen spontaneously cracked"

People say anything to get something, software or hardware, from support.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[diskis]

That's right. Friend of mine worked at a software company, which used activation keys for its products.
The technical support people were not allowed to call customers a liar, even though they could see the key was used for attempted activation tens of thousands times around the world, and the customer claimed it was in his unopened package. Shut up, believe the customer and give out a new key was the policy.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Cracked Pottery]

They might relent if given a reasonable justification. I think the person answering the phone has some discretion. In some cases it is automated. It seems to me that the algorithm for determining a change of computer should be tied closely to the motherboard and not cards or other peripherals. That said, it's not fair that if lightning strikes your computer it also blows up your right to use software. It is also unlikely that exactly the same revision of motherboard will be used in any repair that involves motherboard replacement. Part of the justification for lower OEM license prices is that M$ disavows any technical support and refers the customer to the vendor for software issues. While this is a pathetic policy, it's not an excuse to screw the user who suffers a hardware failure. I have not seen a case where M$ didn't reactivate XP at least once. My big problem with product activation is the inevitable forced obsolescence when M$ decides a product is at the end of it's "life cycle,"

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[ThatsNotFunny]

Just hit random numbers until you get a real person. Or punch the keypad a few times with your fists. At least that way you can get out some of the frustration while you're at it. :D

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[FoamingToad]

I thought it was 6 * 7 = 42 digits, this may be why you're failing. Sorry, couldn't resist.

I found that the system had a bit of trouble recognising two subsequent instances of the same digit, and slowed down my input a bit. Sure, it was a bit tedious, but got an activation code from the IVR just fine. However I did notice the automated line was more than a bit glitchy with dropouts and distortion on the line - it's the type of thing the telco I used to work for wouldn't have considered acceptable.

F_T

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Billly Gates]

I have and they told me I agreed on the EULA that I would not install it on more than one computer and I could shove it up my ass if I didn't like. (not those exact words)

So I agreed and installed Ubuntu Linux.

BUt seriously you do not own that copy of Windows and you only own a right to a copy of windows that is at Redmond and owned at Microsoft under a very limited set of rules under the EULA. So you own a copy of a another product and its licensed in legal speak and not owned. ( as strange as it sounds)

Emachines loves this as it forces you to might as well buy a new computer due to the expense. Microsoft loves this as they are guaranteed to get paid whether you use Widows or not and it cuts down on piracy. After all not everyone who upgrades is using a real paid license. So this means everyone but you wins.

Its very unethical but Microsoft has lobbied politicians to do whatever the hell it wants and has a monopoly if you need win32 applications.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Comboman]

I was able to move an install of XP from a dead desktop to a laptop and then a year later, back to a new desktop (I installed Linux, temporarily on the laptop before ditching it). All it took was a phone call each time and an explanation of why I was moving the install.

If you have a separately purchased copy of XP (the kind that comes in a cardboard box with a CD) you can transfer it to another computer. If you have an OEM version that came 'free' with the computer, you may only use it on that computer.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

I smell serious BS on this one. I have 3 machines with various flavors of XP. Each has undergone significant upgrade, update, repair in the past 5 years. At no time have I had to re-purchase the O.S.

I have four PC's at home in a family network (plus a lovely Mac that "just works" that I can't pry away from the ladies). Trying to find out which installation disc goes with which computer in our less than totally organised house is a problem -- things get lost, original media -- who needs it? Yes I know some folks read the installation scripts and EULA's yadda yadda but if a machine works for a year or two you lose focus on original media storage. So, things wear out and go spang in the middle of your game -- PSU fails, torching the mobo -- off to the store for a new one, plus a different video card because well, that's what's available for that motherboard.

Activation said "too many installs on this license" (yes, I bought Real Media, hologram & all, one for each PC) and I got the same message from the Microsoft activation phone line. I had torched this pc before (unreliable power, eventually bought a UPS). Media was from a legitimate household-name supplier. I had to buy a new copy.

Ok, perhaps there was a way out -- and perhaps not. Yes, I could have been more organised, but I wasn't. Give me one mom&pop luser point and deduct one geek point.

The point is, the hardware wore out and needed replacement. The software didn't wear out, did it? Why should I have to replace something that doesn't need repair when the only reason it failed was because the manufacturer of the software acted to deny its use?

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[NekoXP]

:)

Microsoft will simply refuse to activate a product where the key is a well-known pirated one. Most of them turn up on Google and ostensibly on the MSN/Live search engine so I suspect they are not above checking for them and blacklisting them regularly. The moment it goes onto the internet and someone uses it more than once without good reason (think of bittorrent sites where you see copies of XP with 1000 seeders..).

Most people even with heavy hardware-upgrade needs only ever have to call Microsoft once or twice a year, if that. I've called them once a year when Windows has gone down on SOME machine but it's never been the same copy of Windows or the same machine at the time. If you have to run 3 or 4 machines and repair or make updates, you're going to have to call :)

Buying another copy of Windows after a repair, shouldn't really be necessary, but this guy's problem seems to be quite unique, but they'll understand anyway if it's only the first time he's had to activate.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[dapsychous]

You don't even have to hit random numbers. Just press '0' (zero, for you arabic number-ly challenged folks) when it asks you if you are calling to activate windows xp. it won't work unless it has asked you a question.

That, or openly ridicule voice recognition systems. Maybe you'll hurt it's feelings and it won't want to talk to you anymore?

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Talchas]

If absolutely nothing else works, just lie to them and say you added/upgraded your video card and it broke.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Brentfire]

I've had two main hard drives (which were the main drives for my windows install) fail on me. Getting a new activation key is as simple as calling up the Microsoft help line number that is specified on the "this copy of windows is not yet activated" screen. Tell the tech support guy that the reason for the re-install is your hard drive with windows on it crashed. Both of the times I've done this, I've gotten a simple "OK" in response, followed closely by the new key. P.S. I advise you to call the NON toll-free number -- you get a much smaller wait time, and in general, the tech support guys speak english more clearly.(I've called both)

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[geobeck]

Or punch the keypad a few times with your fists.

Nah, that doesn't work. You just get "The fingers you are using to dial with are too fat. To order a special dialing wand, mash the keypad now."

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[scuba_steve_1]

Well then, looks like I got lucky. ;-)

I do not begrudge MS their licensing fees. They deserve them. I just would prefer that a Windows OS purchase of any kind was treated similarly to that of most consumer software purchases - buy a version and you can install that software on a single PC. Feel free to move the same version of that software to a new PC as long as you remove it from the first PC.

Most consumers are not attorneys. When they buy a PC that "includes Windows", they don't necessarily infer that they received a lesser, non-transferable version of Windows than one that they could have purchased elsewhere. They most likely assume that they bought Windows. The computer also came with a keyboard...and it isn't limited to being used on just that computer in the future.

It seems that the law abiding citizen is bearing the brunt of privacy...since they are most affected by Draconian licensing policies meant to address same. Of course, one cannot downplay Microsoft's preference to also get all of us to pay them an OS tax as frequently as possible.

I typically build my own systems for home. My motivation is not expense - I want a system configured the way I want...with (for the most part) non-OEM components...so i can get (for example) drivers directly from the manufacturer...rather than ATI tell me, "Oh, that video card is really an OEM ATI card for Dell...and you must get the drivers from them." This debacle just reinforces that preference. of course, I bought an OEM version of win XP from newegg for my last build. ;-)

BTW, thanks for the info.

  on a PC, they assu

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Mister Whirly]

Your backup image won't work if certain hardware (motherboard, processor, etc.) has changed. If your hard drive dies, no sweat. But if anything major fails, you are SOL.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[scuba_steve_1]

That last line is just a collection of words (and word fragments) that were left over after I constructed my post...not unlike the items that I have left over when I reassemble almost anything else. Feel free to use them in your posts. They are spares.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

>One thing is, the people in India handling the activation really don't care too much, and, as long
>as you don't volunteer certain information, will happily hand out the magic 42 digit number that
>makes everything work. I've even used this to transfer an XP OEM license to an entirely different
>computer (shhh!).

While this makes your copy of windows wokring by technical means, it will not be legal! If you do this, you clearly break the Licence. You will pass the WGA test, but would not pass a legal audit. By legal terms you are not any better than the one who uses a cracked version.

vajk

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Jesterboy]

Not entirely true, unfortunately. I've been on both sides of the fence; successful transfers of OEM license to a different computer, as well as getting shut down by the representative.

I remember back in 2001 or so when I purchased a Dell laptop with OEM XP Home. Activation was pretty painless of course, except I was in Japan without an internet connection and had to reinstall Windows. Try talking to one of these reps in a language you barely speak, but I digress... Fast forwrd to 2003 when I built a desktop, and successfully transferred the license over with no problem whatsoever (maybe because I activated it in Japan?). After a failure of some sort, I had to reinstall Windows XP again and called the activation hotline. I let drop the fact that I had transfered the license from my laptop, which got me into an argument with the rep, who ended by saying, "You shouldn't have been able to activate it in the first place; it was a fluke". I believe my product key was flagged as well; I vaguely recall attempting to call once more with no luck. I had mistakenly thought the license I had purchased was actually mine. Ah, the folly of youth...

Basically, it seems that the person you get to talk to has full control of whether your system activates or not. Luckily, much like the McDonald's cook you mention, the activation reps really don't care about their job; they aren't getting bonuses for customer service nor for helping Microsoft milk a few more licenses out of you. By not volunteering certain information, you can get it to successfully activate, but often if you honestly explain the situation, it will generally go in Microsoft's favor; you paying more money for another license you don't really own.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[repvik]

* Lying about the whole thing in an effort to flamebait an MS discussion
        * Bought the eMachine from someone with a pirated copy of the OS
        * Purposely installed a pirated copy that he may/may not have paid for
        * Is not diligent enough to actually deal with MS
        * Is dealing with a brain dead computer store pseudo-geek (really, if they are that good, they can get a much better job, the computer store geek is to real geeks what MacDonald cooks are to Chefs)
        * Just a liar

* Has an OEM licence.

OEM licences prevent you from activating on a different computer. This is really old news though.
What I'm wondering is... how long will Microsoft activate XP machines? If I'm keeping an old PC in the basement to run legacy applications, what happens when Microsoft decides to stop activation and I have to replace the motherboard?
Will I be forced to buy another OS, that won't run my legacy applications? What about closed-source legacy apps?
Does Microsoft have the right to deny me running an OS I've legally bought, for the PC it was intended to run on, even after 20+ years?

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[rapidweather]

There may be plenty of Slashdotters that have done this:
I have two separate installations of XP on one Dell 4600, the first one fowled up when the antivirus software somehow became hopelessly corrupted, essentially ruining the installation. So, I got another hard drive, and set up another Windows XP installation. I purchased a different antivirus program. Then, after a while (several months), I went back, and formatted the original partition, and started over there too, with another XP installation. I left the Dell restoration partitions alone, of course.
At no time did I have to call Microsoft.
Now, will Vista permit me to do something like the above? Office Depot sells Vista Home Premium for $160.00, upgrade, and I would not want to have to go purchase that when doing a repair.
The new computers they have for sale today are very attractively priced, with Vista preinstalled.
If one "subtracts" $160.00 (cost of Vista HP) from the price of the new boxes, then it begins to at least "look" good, even though it is just smoke and mirrors, in that no one is going to have XP to upgrade here, unless they bought an XP box lately, before the $9.95 upgrade to Vista program got started. (bear with me here)
I'll go along with it, and feel good about my purchase of a new computer with Vista preinstalled, as I look over at the Vista upgrade boxes, and their high price tags. "I'm getting a steal", I say to myself.
(Here I am playing the part of an average customer)
I am well aware that Vista is never going to be as easily re-installed, repeatedly, as MSDOS, Windows 3.1, Window 95 or Windows 98, all of which I have, and have installed many many times.
MSDOS just last week.
With the kind of money that Microsoft gets for Vista, we should be able to have at least 10 installs, or something to show for our money.

How in the world can it be that Vista will differ from XP in that it won't "go bad" on the user, and require a reinstall? I never thought my Dell 4600 would require such repair, but it did, through no fault of mine.

The first time someone gets bit by this, Linux is going to be worth looking into. (see my screenshots below)

  Rapidweather

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[flyingfsck]

Yup, sounds to me like a troll. I have phone MS to activate machines and have never had any trouble.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[mrsbrisby]

It's easy and takes around 15 minutes...

Why bother?

Just download a patch so that your purchased software will run on your purchased hardware.

Given that cases such as Galoob v. Nintendo, 780 F. Supp 1283 (N.D. Cal. 1991), 22 U.S.P.Q.2d 1587 (9th Cir. 1992), and see also Foresight v. Pfortmiller, 719 F. Supp 1006 (D. Kan. 1989) for examples where it is ruled, and it is law that you have the right to do this.

No matter what Microsoft says on the subject, you do not have to purchase another copy of Windows XP. It should be criminal for them to suggest otherwise, and it may very well be (at least in some states).

They may say that they have "licensed" it to you; ask them to show you the contract and signature, for you can only give rights away through a signed contract, and a "meeting of the minds". See Vault v. Quaid, 847 F.2d 255 (5th Cir. 1988).

(As a side note, those of you that are paying attention will note this is exactly why the GPL works: You do not [by default] have the right to copy GPL'd software, but the author will give you the right to copy if you satisfy some conditions. As a result, you do not have to sign anything in order to be "bound" to the GPL: you simply wouldn't have the right to copy.)

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Namronorman]

protip: Just say you bought the copy at Best buy or somewhere and you do not understand why it does not work. This has never failed me, at least not for office. Play dumb, do not be smart with these people.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[PPH]

4. They will ask you several questsions, answer as follows:

This sounds strangely similar to a bit out of Monty Python's Holy Grail movie.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

I made three calls to MS for activation. Two calls to emachines for same. For MS, the sticking point was the "install id", which revealed the computer to be from emachines. The second call to MS resulted in a dead line after I calmly and tactfully persisted in making my case. When I get a chance, I will do a repair install with different media (same version of XP). This will generate a new "install id", then perhaps they will talk to me.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Ecuador]

Exactly.
The article is just propagating the BS of an ignorant repair person. I have had to call a couple of times over the years when the online activation was either not available or not working, and it was not that hard. Granted, the codes were huge, but the MS employee was well trained for that and the questions she asked where "can you confirm that this windows key is not currently on any working machine?".

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Jesterboy]

Don't get me wrong; I'm not advocating piracy. I don't think you should be able to use a single seat license on multiple computers at the same time. Microsoft has every right to their buck when selling the operating system.

However, I do have a problem with the erosion of fair use. I don't think I should have to give Microsoft a call every time I want to change a piece of hardware on my machine and I think the whole "activation" setup is like planned obsolescence. I do realize that very few hardware installs will actually have this effect, and I understand there's a way to get around having to reactivate Windows by saving your previous activation files. From my perspective, though, these are unacceptable.

I should also point out the fact that I have never, ever pirated Windows XP. I have two licenses of Windows XP; one with my decrepit, 5 year old laptop and one with the system I built myself. The laptop itself was marginally functional at the time I built my system; I wanted to tranfer the license to my new machine, and recycle (as in install Linux or trash) the old computer. I was unable to use what I fairly purchased, and it irked me quite a bit. My consternation did not save me the fee of obtaining another license, though. As for successfully transferring an OEM license, I am referring to a machine my employer bought to be used as a Linux server; Windows XP was unwanted, but came pre-installed only to be wiped out immediately upon arrival. Later on, there was a machine that had to run a special piece of software, and only under Windows XP Home/Pro for support reasons; this machine originally had "Media Center" preloaded on it. Instead of shelling out the $200 to a local Office Max for the privilege of "downgrading", I transferred the UNUSED license from the other machine. I'm sure there are plenty of things in a EULA that make this "wrong", but how is that not fair use? Furthermore, the academic institute that employs me is still stuck holding an unwanted Media Center license.

I don't know, perhaps my thinking is wrongheaded on this, but I don't think I'm doing anything wrong. I'm not selling, pirating, or illegally copying anything; I'm just trying to use what has been paid for.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[DaveWick79]

The problem with this emachines computer is that the OEM version of XP used is BIOS locked, not activated via internet or phone, and MS does not handle activation or re-activation of said product. So, when you call MS, they will tell you that they don't handle your particular activation, you will have to go back to the OEM. So, as the original poster stated, you're stuck with buying an overpriced hardware bundle from Emachines. As an alternative, it's usually cheaper to buy a Home edition upgrade and an inexpensive replacement motherboard.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[daggre]

I've also had a motherboard replacement and needed to call Microsoft. They were great to work with and had the OS activated in a few minutes. Long code to type in manually but no big deal really and they stayed on the phone with me and walked me through it.

I don't know why everyone's so anti-Microsoft. They defintely got over-zealous in their exclusive licensing deals with preloading Windows a few years back but the antitrust settlement seems to have made them change their business practices. I certainly have no problem with them requiring users of the OS to register their copies online, given how much piracy of their software there was prior to them moving to an activation system. It seems like that's what most commercial software will eventually go to, and I have no problem with it.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[DaveWick79]

Dell uses BIOS locking, which does not require Internet activation. So as long as you reinstall XP (or Vista) on a machine with the same BIOS (or a replacement board with that Dell BIOS) you will not be prompted to activate online or over the phone.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[ezzthetic]

I agree I've never had any trouble getting an activation key out of MS. What has bugged me, though, is that more often than not, I've had to go through this procedure after a simple re-install, when I haven't made any changes to my PC whatsoever. I was under the impression that re-activation was only not automatic when you had made a major hardware change.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[bigtreeman]

Repairing computers for a computer shop often requires
replacing a motherboard, which often means also replacing
cpu and memory, a major overhaul but cheaper than replacing
the computer. If the computer runs Linux just reboot.
But if it has Windblows XP phone the registration and
explain the situation, no problems, just a pain in the butt.
I've even installed OEM on a HP computer and quoted the HP
serial number and they've accepted it.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[FlameSnyper]

Whatever. That's crap.

Twice in the last three weeks I've re-installed Windows XP on computers that have had NO HARDWARE CHANGES! They were only being re-installed due to viruses and spyware. The CD-Key that's on the back of the computer didn't work!

See, these computers (one from Sony, one from Compaq) came with no recovery disc, and were both Pre-SP1. Oh, and since the CDs that would have come with the computer were SP1, and Sony/Compaq (HP) don't distribute them anymore, but also won't replace the media with SP2 media...

So, when you install, legally, from an XP SP2 OEM CD that you already own, and use the CD-Key on the back of the computer, that you paid for, and it still won't activate automatically... because the only OEM CD you have is XP SP2, and those computers shipped with a Pre-SP1 CD-Key... and then you have to call someone for permission to install?!? That's crap, no matter how "easy" it is.

Oh, and when you call, after the "automatic" internet-based validation has failed, you still have to wait for Microsoft's (friendly) automated phone system to repeat back to you that activation has failed before it will let you talk to a human. That's crap.

Once that's all through, the human on the other end cheerfully "verifies" that I'll tell him what he wants to hear, and goes ahead and activates the copy of Windows.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Burning Plastic]

I think that you're forgetting that the actual question is "What do you get if you multiply 6 by 9". Definitely something fundamentally wrong with the universe...

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[lexus99]

I have...while working on a Dell that needed a replacement MB. It took forever to get, and they actually sent us an upgraded model MB. I called MS, three times. They eventually told me to call Dell. Dell would not issue a new number either. Instead they wanted me to return the lousy MB and wait 6wks for an identical replacement. HORSESHIT!

The Dell was just one example....this has now happened at my PC repair shop three separate times, and this IS HORSESHIT!

Yes, I've heard people have gotten replacement numbers from MS, but never this person, so all things must not be equal.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft made every consumer product...

You'd have to call them every time you replaced the belt on your vacuum.
You'd call them to activate your replacement house key.
You would need to buy new shoes when your laces got worn.
Got a new filter for your refrigerator? Call it in.
Replace the guts of your toilet, better call and let them know.
Thinking about putting that magazine on the coffee table? The eula only applies to you, not your family.
Separate the paper for the family? Eula violation.

It may be 'easy' to pick up the phone and call, but the principal of the idea is absolutely absurd.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[AHumbleOpinion]

I've had to go through this procedure after a simple re-install, when I haven't made any changes to my PC whatsoever. I was under the impression that re-activation was only not automatic when you had made a major hardware change.

If you reinstalled how does that new installation know the key has been previously activated? The new installation is probably not aware of its past life.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[TimboJones]

The activation process calls home, and if the key has be used more than X times, it prompts you to call.

Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I had the same problem as the author of the article. I contacted MS after some capacitors of my board blew and my OEM Windows XP didn't want to activate on the new board. Their initial response was: "We are sorry, you have to buy an activation key.". After month of arguing I was finally granted new activation - however, at that time I was running XP corporate I downloaded from the Internet and I am running that still today. It's easier to steal XP than to purchase it legally. It was just unbelievable. Why should I be punished that I actually paid for XP? Penalty for stupidity?

FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Call the 800 # (free) and talk to the outsourced individual and request an activation key.

Re:FUD

[notanatheist]

in the US it is 888-571-2048. I think. Haven't had to dial it today yet so no phone in front of me. When the stupid recording is done talking press '0'. Tell the beehotch to "transfer you anyway" so you can get a live person from India. Be very up front about the process and take no slack. Give them th 42 digits a nice firm 6 at a time so they can understand you. Before they ask you anything tell them it is the only PC it is on and you have to activate because you replaced the motherboard. They will sometimes ask again what you just told them. Whatever info you give them up front will typically reduce the other stupid questions like them asking what kind of computer it is, where did you buy it, what is the 25 character product key, etc.. Keep in mind they have no idea what your system is and what stores there are to buy from so if you get those questions you can answer any way you like. Name of computer? PEBKAC. Store? JoMommas. Simple as that. I have to do it nearly everyday with the number of computers I repair.

IIRC....

[Churla]

If I recall correctly there are ways to get around this by calling actual MS support. Usually this involves being the "bullying customer" some. But they will do an over the phone registration. I had to do this when I had to replace the MB in my mother-in-laws computer.

P.S. - This should also blossom into a beautiful flame war, I would recommend hot cocoa with marshmallows for viewing it.

Re:IIRC....

[Zebra_X]

And yet you might not succeed as none one flaming has actually called MS and *not* gotten an activation key LOL.

But, cocoa and marshmallows sounds good to me. I'll join you.

Re:IIRC....

[MadCow42]

I had to do this a while back on a reinstall, and was all prepared to be the "bullying customer"... then all the steam was let out of me when they just said OK, here it is.

Besides the annoying fact that I had to call to activate something that should have been automatic (or non-existant actually), it was very simple. Phoning people should not be a scary exercise for MOST people.

MadCow.

Re:IIRC....

[jb.hl.com]

Thing is, last time I had to call for an activation key (a copy of XP Home on a relative's PC) it was actually fairly painless. Online activation failed, sure, but the phone was quick, and it was all sorted within 5 minutes. Very impressive indeed.

how many are we talking of?

[romit_icarus]

That's an interesting question. Do we know how such repair cases exist? A class action presupposes a large number of people and that's one bit of data one would need.

Re:how many are we talking of?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for repeating the question for us.

increments

[TheSHAD0W]

Has other hardware for that machine been replaced in the past? Apparently MS will allow you to replace one or two major components before considering it to be a "different computer". Maybe the HD was switched a few months or years ago?

Yeah, I know it's stupid.

Re:increments

[PFI_Optix]

My current XP license was originally installed on this:

Intel D850MD motherboard
Intel Pentium 4 2.2 Ghz CPU
512 MB Rambus
Radeon 7000
80 GB Western Digital HDD
CD-RW
DVD-ROM

I then replaced the motherboard with a Soyo P4S Dragon Ultra (or something like that) and bought generic DDR RAM.
Then I bought a GeForce 5200 FX
When my motherboard's AGP port got flaky, I replaced it with a Soyo P4S-D
Then I added an Adaptec 1200A and two Seagate 120 MB HDDs on RAID 0 and reinstalled my OS on them
When my 5200FX was damaged by THAT AGP port getting flaky, I bought an Abit IC7-MaxIII and went with a different Radeon 7000 due to budget constraints.
I finally got around to getting a better CPU--a P4 3.0E and switched to high-end Corsair RAM.
Then I bought a Radeon X850 Pro as the last semi-high-end component to go in this system prior to a planned upgrade and switch to Vista this summer.

Some time In there I replaced my optical drives with a DVD+-RW, and several small hard drives have been in and out to back up data as I changed partitioning schemes twice.

I've had to call MS three times to have the license reactivated. All three times I've explained that I was replacing bad components or upgrading various things, and all three times they've not given me any grief on reactivation. The anonymous submitter is either doing something wrong, is clueless, or is trolling.

Re:increments

['nother poster]

Well, since many motherboards also supply your network and video IDs then a MB swap changes quite a few "major components" as far as XPs key checker is concerned.

Re:increments

[Walpurgiss]

WindowsXP assigns a kind of point system to various aspects of your system, allowing certain components to be weighted as more significant changes than others. From what I recall, even the more mundane things like sound card, network card, and memory were counted in this. If you go beyond a certain threshold value, it requires reactivation as it considers it a new PC.

Thing with switching motherboards is, most motherboards now have a bunch of stuff built on that would really increase their score. Onboard video, audio, LAN ports, just to name a few things. These likely were collectively enough to go over the limit.

And yes, it is stupid. It should be something where you can reactivate it as much as you like using your CD key, and just have previous activations disable if they feel the need to protect themselves. Would be so much less of a hassle for most legitimate customers, and not be any less secure for MS vs crackers.

Re:increments

[Anonymous Coward]

You've only had to call for permission three times to use your own computer?

Sweet!

I can see why people like Microsoft so much!

Re:increments

[Joe The Dragon]

a new system board can have alot of major components on it that are differnt then a older one.

Re:increments

[networkBoy]

Chipset
video (possibly, even if "off")
audio
processor
hdd controller
network

Re:increments

[PFI_Optix]

*rolls eyes*

All things considered, it's a minor inconvenience. It takes longer to download and isntall OpenOffice than it does to call MS to get Windows reactivated. I know this because on my last reinstall that's exactly what I did...start OOo downloading and call at the same time. Multitasking ftw.

Re:increments

[Embedded2004]

It's actually even easier just to get a valid volume licensing key through the internet so you don't have to bother with activation.

I do this even though I have legit copies of Windows.

It's sad when pirating the OS becomes easier than installing the copy you paid for.

Re:increments

[Stamen]

Roll your eyes all you want, but the problems with Activation are twofold, one is it does nothing to stop most piracy, and thus is technically poor, and two, how many minor conveniences need to stack up before you people care.

Activation does very little to stop the vast majority of piracy. A 5 second Google search will give you a key generator that bypasses it all together. I'm absolutely sure that the guy in China puts the phone down, after being denied his new Activation key, and throws away the 100,000 copies of XP he just pressed in his garage. If you really want to do Activation, at least do it like iTunes does, allow you to unactivate a computer and reactivate it on another computer; why does MS care what computer it is on as long it is only on 1 computer. Technically speaking, activation is just lame.

Let's imagine that every piece of software you've bought followed Microsoft's lead: you reinstall your motherboard, or buy a computer, and you have to call the 27 different companies and ask for permission to please use the software license you've purchased on your new equipment; please, please, I'm not bad, I swear. Perhaps there will be "Software License Lawyers" in the future that will, for a fee, make your case to all of your vendors, why you should be able to use the product you bought on the hardware you want.

It truly amazes me what people put up with. Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X all don't have Activation; something to consider.

Re:increments

[PFI_Optix]

The problem with that comes when MS figures out a VL code has been leaked and takes steps to keep it from updating properly, as it has in the past.

Re:increments

[PFI_Optix]

Technically speaking, activation is just lame.

No argument there. I'd rather just do without it.

Let's imagine that every piece of software you've bought followed Microsoft's lead: you reinstall your motherboard, or buy a computer, and you have to call the 27 different companies and ask for permission to please use the software license you've purchased on your new equipment;

MS gets away with it on Windows because the operating system is reinstalled far less frequently.

Also, this is the OEM license of Windows we're talking about. It is tied to a particular computer, and discounted heavily (to a more realistic price) because of that. I've got an OEM version of Nero that only works with the particular brand of DVD burner I have. So some companies have their own restrictive OEM licenses.

It truly amazes me what people put up with. Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X all don't have Activation; something to consider.

Linux and FreeBSD are FOSS, so of course they have no licensing issues.

Tangent: I decided I should find out whether you can buy a Mac without an OS or not. I went to Apple.com and clicked "Get a Mac" and, oddly enough, I don't see anything on that page that will actually allow me to GET A MAC. Shouldn't it be titled "WHY get a Mac" if it's just a marketing page?

Tangent 2: The purchasing site is almost unnavigable because our content filter kills akamai.net due to their hosting of pornography on the same domain as webmd and apple.com. Why is the CSS file on akamai and everything else on apple.com?

I'm not able to find where a system can be purchased without OSX. If that's the case, why should Apple make it difficult to install the OS? They KNOW they sold an OS with every Apple system ever made. Microsoft doesn't have that luxury.

Re:increments

[Joe The Dragon]

M$ downloads and windows updates come form akamai.net so your content filter blocks windows update?
That is real bad

Re:increments

[Maxwell]

Let's imagine that every piece of software you've bought followed Microsoft's lead: you reinstall your motherboard, or buy a computer, and you have to call the 27 different companies and ask for permission to please use the software license you've purchased on your new equipment; please, please, I'm not bad, I swear. Perhaps there will be "Software License Lawyers" in the future that will, for a fee, make your case to all of your vendors, why you should be able to use the product you bought on the hardware you want.

You mean like IBM's UNIX and Mainframes have done for the last 30 years? It would be great to upgrade a z/OS machine and make as *few* as 27 calls....

JON

Re:increments

[Stamen]

MS gets away with it because people don't complain with either their mouths or with their wallets. 10 years ago, no company would even try such a thing because the users would simply not buy the software. Actually some companies did use various copy protection schemes, but eventually they all stopped to satisfy their customers. MS has, basically, a monopoly on the desktop now; satisfying customers has never been a high priority on a monopolist's lists of things to care about.

Yes, you are right on the OEM license issue. I was responding to your eye rolling on how activation is a "minor" inconvenience.

Yes, Linux and BSD are FOSS, and thus why there is no Activation. I was noting a fact that they don't have Activation, and it is something to consider when deciding on an OS.

As for OS X, no you can't buy a Mac without OS X installed. But you can buy the latest version and install it on your 10 computers, which isn't legal, but Apple does nothing technical to stop you. So yes they have an interest in stopping that. But they choose to not include Activation (which they specifically note in their marketing literature) for customer satisfaction reasons. You see, Apple is clawing its way up, and it is very important to them to make their customers happy; I'm sure if they were to get to the top they would act just like Microsoft does now. If that were to happen we shouldn't stand for that either.

Activation is an annoyance to legitimate customers with basic needs, it forces legitimate customers with advanced needs to commit a crime (a felony I believe) to use it, and does absolutely nothing to stop software pirates. Nice work pal!

Re:increments

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's funny that when people are treated badly and they accept it, they often say that everyone else should be willing to accept it too.

Tell me, how many copies of IBM mainframe software avoided piracy for those 27 calls? My guess is that number is close to zero. Who puts up a mainframe and then pirates software? You were treated poorly by businesses obssessed with intellectual property for probably no good reason at all. You should be congratulating anyone willing to fight this now.

Re:increments

[imemyself]

No problem at all until people start using other people's keys. Then all I would have to do is write down the serial from one of those Windows XP stickers and simply activate my computer as that, 'disabling' the previous (legit) activation. Considering the problems with spyware, botnets, and viruses, that would be a *big* problem.

Re:increments

[geekoid]

The fact that you have to call at all is the problem.

It's you computer. And you paid for the OS. You should not have had to prove that you are innocent of criminal activity. That is contrary to how this country was founded.
If MS as a reason to belive you have comment a crime, they can go to the authorities. If the Authorities have some proof or belief you committed a crime, they can approach and you can DEFEND your innocence.

Re:increments

[Anonymous Coward]

All things considered, being anally raped is a minor inconvenience. It's just the way things are. I just take it in the cornhole, and then get on with my life because I have more important things to do. I don't understand why you people have to make such a big deal about it. It's a fact of life!

They have no way of knowing.

[phorest]

They simply have no way of knowing.

That's always a problem with OEM OS loads.This Quick Reference Should clear up some issues for those who are not already aware.

I always figure in a new OEM copy whenever a board goes. You'll waste more time than is neccessary to try to save $139.00, but you saved a lot of money buying that replacement board from NewEgg. It sucks but other than sending it to (in this case EMachines) neither Microsoft -or- EMachines have no idea what happened to your hardware that your OEM OS is tied to.

Re:They have no way of knowing.

[headstream]

No, it is not "a problem with OEM OS loads". It's a problem with MS OSes. Other OSes do not make one jump thru hoops when upgrading hardware.

eMachines

[eric76]

I'm having serious doubts about eMachines computers.

I know two people who lost their power supplies within a couple of weeks of each other. In one case, the failure of the power supply apparently wiped out the motherboard and in the other case, the failur eof the power supply appears to have wiped out the CPU.

I'm not at all sure that it is worth replacing the motherboard or CPU.

I appreaciate learning this because it certainly increases the cost of getting it back up and running.

Re:eMachines

[walt-sjc]

I'm having serious doubts about eMachines computers.

Really? You are having doubts about the quality of one of the least expensive computers on the market???? I'm shocked. Totally shocked. I would have never expected in a million years that the quality of such a low-priced, low-end machine wasn't very good....

I think you should immediately turn over the machine to the Geek Squad, and pay them big bucks to tell you that, indeed, the eMachine is a pile of crap. Those guys know. They are experts after all...

What? Was that a little too sarcastic?

Re:eMachines

[Laur]

And I have two eMachines which have been happily plugging away for years now. The plural of anecdote is not data.

Re:eMachines

[SatanicPuppy]

Shrug. I came to the conclusion years ago that, if you were able to build your own computer, you would be crazy not to. I've used nothing but custom builds for the last 8 years or so, and I wouldn't switch back for anything.

You end up taking the shaft even from working with a high end desktop from an industry leader. I got so tired of buying high end Dell's for 4,000 a pop, and then having them be a big non-upgradable paperweight 3 years later...All the internal mounts on their cases are proprietary, power supply, motherboard...hell, you can switch pci cards and that's about it. Pathetic.

On the other hand, a nice 150 dollar Antec case is good for years, and you can put any damn motherboard/power supply in it, no trouble at all, and when all the components are standards compliant, you can switch out whatever part you want and it's no big deal. New motherboard/processor without upgrading a single other piece of the machine? No problem.

Re:eMachines

[melikamp]

True that. My $90 Antec case is now 8 years old and has the original power supply. Everything else just came and went: 2 motherboards (think also CPU, RAM), 2 hard drives, 3 graphics cards. It's big and heavy, but it saved me a heap of money for being a pretty decent gaming rig that it is.

Re:eMachines

[uredahdee]

I work in a computer repair shop (member of the OEM network) and lost my confidence in eMachines about half a year into the job. I have encountered this problem more than I care to account for and even a "bullying customer" or "I happen to work as part of the OEM network" seems to generally fail. No doubt it has worked at times, but easiest way to avoid this is to put a little bit of money into the computer, and (as a result) skip eMachines. They seem to use cheap parts and I think their tech-support is lacking...

Re:eMachines

[masdog]

That happened to my girlfriend's sister. She had an eMachines. One night, the computer just wouldn't turn on. She brought the computer to me first to see if she would have to take it to Best Buy, and as far as I could tell, it was either the mobo or the PSU.

So after hearing that, she takes it in to Geek Squad, hears the exact same thing I told her, and then is told that it would cost over $300 just to replace the mobo. She ends up paying $40 to have them transfer the files off of her hard drive (which was still usable) and buys another eMachines.

Re:eMachines

[Reziac]

Some eMachines plug on and on and on, others die young. In my observation the death rate by 3 years is about 30%. In the olden days the issue was almost always the PSU (easily replaced), but more recently it's usually the motherboard.

eMachines are made cheap, yeah (tho somewhat better now that they're owned by Gateway) but at least you get what little you pay for. You can pay 4x as much for a Dell that is no better quality and is often worse. (Dells may =look= better, but their consumer systems often use even *cheaper* components than the average eMachine.)

If I =had= to buy an OEM, it would probably be a Gateway as in my experience they are the least-awful of the OEMs... however, I find it's vastly better to build my own. I get a far better machine for less money, AND it's far more upgradeable.

Re:eMachines

[eric76]

You undoubtedly encounter cheap machines much more often than I encounter them.

To the best of my knowledge, I never even laid eyes on one until maybe a year ago.

Re:eMachines

[amper]

That's absolutely true, although I've had clients purchase eMachines boxen, and had them last a very long time (more than 3, and even 5 years, in some cases).

I always advise people to build their own machines, and only use top quality, A-list, components (Antec cases/power supplies only, Intel mobo's only, Intel CPU's only, ATI or nVidia display adapters only, etc, etc). You'll end up paying more up front, but you'll get a better machine in the end. All the OEMs are building to a price point, and will inevitably cut corners somewhere.

That said, I'm still primarily a Mac guy. ;) These days, most of my Windows and Linux stuff is being done on Apple machines, but I've always had good experiences with the above mentioned products for those purposes, plus some of the other top shelf component manufacturers.

Re:eMachines

[d_jedi]

EMachines has a known issue where if the power supply goes on some of their models, it'll take the motherboard with it (never heard of the CPU going as well.. but that's not outside the realm of possibility). I wouldn't be surprised if there was a class action suit because of this.. I've seen quite a few people with this problem!

Re:eMachines

[Cheviot]

I've seen quite a bit of problems with failed power supplies in these computers as well. The common thread appears to be that the failed power supplies are 250 watt models by Bestec.

Re:eMachines

[mdarksbane]

The only way you will spend more building your own system is if you are comparing to it to the lowest end POS that the name brands churn out.

Or if you only want to look at the CPU spec and ignore all other aspects of the system, like most low-end premades do.

Re:eMachines

[Mister Whirly]

"I always advise people to build their own machines"
"That said, I'm still primarily a Mac guy"

So you like to recommend something to others that is impossible with the type of system you use? Could you give me some advice on how to build my own Mac??

Re:eMachines

[Mister Whirly]

Bought Emachine - strike 1

Using Geek Squad - strikes 2 through infinity

Re:eMachines

[SatanicPuppy]

Eh. AMD makes great processors. If I was buying top of the line right now, I'd buy Intel, but I've had my ass saved by AMD more than once, and over the last couple of years with all the problems intel had with the Xeon line, AMD was the smart buy. I've got an AMD Barton (2800?) production machine that had a CPU fan die on it, and I popped the case open and pointed a floor fan at it, and the damn thing ran like a champ for 2 days until I got a replacement fan...You won't see that with Intel.

Likewise with motherboards. There are some really good brands out there...I've always had a lot of luck with Asus, even though I don't tend to overclock, the over-design that they put into the boards to create a stable platform for overclocking provides a solid consumer benefit.

The problem with ATI/nVidia, is that you can still buy a card with a good chipset from a company that will be going into the toilet (ATI and nVidia don't usually make their own cards)...I had a 300 dollar card self-destruct on me less than a week after the quite-reputable (in my understanding) company I'd bought it from went tits up...Wish I could remember the company name, I'm sure there are other people who will remember it.

Otherwise I agree. Motherboards are very often flawed in mass market desktops, because they throw a high end processor in it and then put in a crappy motherboard, knowing that the customer is only looking at the clock speed, and doesn't understand the problems that he'll get from a shoddy system bus.

Re:eMachines

[Frumious Wombat]

Not really. At one job a PC failed before I came in one morning, and while everyone agreed that in fact no matter what you did it didn't even try to power up, rather than take it to the repair shop (downstairs in the same building), they waited for me to come and declare it officially dead before they took it down to the shop. They didn't want me to do it, they just wanted assurance from the technically inclined that yes, in accordance with all observations that six PhD's in physical sciences could make, that that machine was indeed truly dead.

So, yes, he should call the Geek Squad, who will declare, "yes and truly, this machine is junk", at which point he can replace it with a clear conscience.

Re:eMachines

[Anonymous Coward]

We have had 3 Compaq S6000NX's have their powersupplies fry and take the motherboard with them in the last month. (!)
Almost like they had their cycles sychronized. :D

Guess what power supply Compaq used on that model (and not other Compaq's we have from that same time)?

You got it - Bestec 250 W

Re:eMachines

[masdog]

That was the girlfriend's sister! My girlfriend is smarter than that because she gets all her computers from me!

I feel used. :-(

Re:eMachines

[Chabo]

because they throw a crappy Celeron in it and then put in a crappy motherboard, knowing that the customer is only looking at the clock speed

Fixed. :)

Re:eMachines

[Anonymous Coward]

That's absolutely true, although I've had clients purchase eMachines boxen, and had them last a very long time (more than 3, and even 5 years, in some cases).

I was given an Etower 500 ix approximately 7 years ago which has been running almost continuously in that period of time and have not had to replace anything on it in that period of time other than the mouse which shorted out. It is currently running Debian Sarge and I have no complaints.

Activate with windows...

[ssand]

I assume by activation you mean windows activation. In this case you have to go through Microsoft, not eMachines. If you can't activate online, and you haven't tried already, do the phone activation. Having reactivated plenty of systems for various reasons, that should do it.

Similar situation

[Anonymous Coward]

I had this problem 2 months ago. It took 3 hours on the phone with Microsoft but their tech support finally gave me a new license key for my Windows XP OEM.

Re:Similar situation

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

It took 3 hours on the phone with Microsoft but their tech support finally gave me a new license key for my Windows XP OEM.

I guess its possible that this is true, but I find it a bit hard to believe. I have to do this all the time and I don't think its ever taken much over 5-10 minutes. It was probably about 10 minutes the first time, but now that I know the drill its really quick.

Re:Similar situation

[King_of_Crunk]

Same here 10 mins tops for reactivation...
3 hours maybe if you feel you have to yell at the wrong people for 2 hours and 50 minutes for no reason before actually talking to the right people.

Call for an activation code...

[VitrosChemistryAnaly]

I've had copies of XP that MS wouldn't activate over the web. What did I do? Call the number they give you. The customer rep will ask why you need to re-activate XP. I just say that I did a reinstall. That's it. I've never had problems the 10 or so times that I've done it.

Have you actually called MS? It's pretty friggin' easy.

Re:Call for an activation code...

[linzeal]

Ditto, replaced 2 processors and a sound card last weekend and it took me 10 minutes.

Re:Call for an activation code...

[StupidKatz]

I'm just pissed that I have to call them in the first place, repeating the long string of alphanumerics notwithstanding. When the OS itself becomes spyware, what can you do? (Well, besides switching OSs, not really an option for gamers.)

Re:Call for an activation code...

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds exactly like what I did. All 10 of my computers have the same activation code too.

Re:Call for an activation code...

[PCM2]

Likewise. My mom managed to fry the XP install on her HP recently, and the recovery partition wouldn't work. We borrowed a Dell OEM Windows XP Home disc from one of her neighbors and I installed that onto her hard drive. She got an upgrade to SP1 in the process. Unfortunately, the serial number on the sticker on the back of her HP would no longer activate the new copy of the OS. I called Microsoft. The whole process of activation took maybe five minutes. After that, she was good to go.

Re:Call for an activation code...

[sexybomber]

Have you actually called MS? It's pretty friggin' easy.

Yes, provided you can understand the Hindi gibberish on the other end of the line. To be fair, they make an admirable effort, but still...

Re:Call for an activation code...

[quintesse]

That might depend a lot on where you live. Only a year ago here in Spain I had just bought a computer, installed Windows on it and a few days later I added some disks and changed the Gfx card. Of course it asked me to call MS.

This was late in the evening. I call... to hear that they only attend in office hours?? WTF?

Ok, so the next day I call again... and after a 20 minute wait suddenly the line goes dead.

So I call again and now I get a person on the line after 5 minutes, who listens to my story asks me something in rapid Spanish what I can't understand so I ask him if he can repeat the question... and just hangs up!!!

Fed up with all this I ask my girlfriend (who is a native Spanish speaker) to call. This time everything goes fine and Windows is re-activated after which my girlfriend starts to lecture the guy on the phone about what it means being consumer friendly and that it is actually easier to use a pirated version of Windows! The guys only response was that the hassle really is all for your own good. Suuuuure! ;-)

Ask to talk to their manager

[halivar]

It's amazing what you can get if you just bitch enough. Sometimes it's easier just to add another activation to a license to shut someone up.

Re:Ask to talk to their manager

[Billly Gates]

Call centers are not supposed to have managers talk to their customers. They have more important things to do unless its a legality issue. At least that was the case with my last 2 jobs at one.

Re:Ask to talk to their manager

[Dilpo]

Its actually amazing what you can get if you don't bitch at all. I work for a major retailer (not walmart) for a number of years, originally at the return desk and now a front end manager. I've transfered to three different stores over the years because I moved (from home to campus 1 then to campus 2) and all have treated people the same. When people come in with an attitude or start bitching you can believe that immediately they get the shaft. We (managers included) find what ever reason we can to tell them no and if they persist tell them to leave the store. On the other hand when people come in nice, calm, and understanding we will break the system (Most of us have worked there for years and believe me there is a way around just about everything) and try as hard as we can to give them what they want. I have a few friends that work at some other major retailers and they are even more abrasive to people who try to be the "bully customer". And before anyone thinks to question it, it is very easy to tell the difference between someone who is pissed because something didn't work the way they thought and those who are trying to bully.

It depends....

[jizziknight]

If it was a direct replacement of the board (same model number, chipset, etc.) and the hard drive was not affected by the repairs (you didn't have to wipe the drive for some reason), you shouldn't need to reinstall the OS at all. If you installed a different board than the original, you might be SOL. If it were me, I'd plug the drive back in and boot up and see what happens. You might get lucky and everything would work fine.

Now if it's a WGA problem, that's a different story. You'll have to call Microsoft up for that one. Assuming you're not an ass when you call up, you shouldn't have much problem getting them to issue you a new key or something.

Re:It depends....

[Clever7Devil]

I'd argue the point about not being an ass. Customer service people are encouraged and rewarded for up/suggestive-selling. Many times being a PITA is the best way to get them to do what you want. This gets you off the phone before the dreaded question comes, "may i speak with your manager?"

Re:It depends....

[jizziknight]

I've found that that only works when they're being an ass as well. Like continuing to up-sell even though you've said no to everything so far. However, if you're trying to get something for free, or get them to take care of a problem that isn't entirely their fault, it's generally best to be cordial.

blah blah blah

[Anonymous Coward]

No, there aren't. Make a little effort and your situation will be resolved.

Been there before

[Anonymous Coward]

Spent over an hour on the phone with msft who gave me the runaround eventually getting me nowhere until their activation center "transfered" me which ended up giving me a dead line. I was about to give up and go buy a new copy of the OS when i decided to try the dial in activation tool. Apparently this dials a separate registry that activates e-machines xp keys which msft's activation center has no access to. this got the key re-registered and the os worked fine after that. Oddly, the entire activation wizard had a fit if the modem card was pulled.

Just Do Like Everyone Else

[Anonymous Coward]

And pirate it of course. You'll join the ranks of 1/4 of computer users.
Seriously, is there anything morally wrong for actually using software you paid for?

Read your license agreement.

[Anonymous Coward]

You should do whatever your license agreement says you should do.

If you can't understand your license agreement, get a lawyer to help you read it.

If you don't like what it says, get a different OS vendor.

And please don't mod me down for trolling - it really is important for people to understand the licenses for the stuff they buy - otherwise groups like the RIAA can walk all over everyone. If people started taking EULAs seriously and tried to understand them, more companies would start using reasonable EULAs.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Stoutlimb]

I didn't know that EULA's were binding contracts.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[CDarklock]

I'm a registered Microsoft Software Advisor. It's my business to know about licensing.

So with that out of the way: what he said.

This isn't rocket science, people. Read your licenses. If you don't like them, complain.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Intron]

ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg decided this in 1996, even for an EULA that was not visible at the time of purchase. Great when the store won't accept returns of software that has been opened.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Stoutlimb]

Thanks for the info, I guess they are binding in the USA. I wonder how binding they are where I live? (Canada)

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the Netherlands and most of Europe EULA's aren't legally bounding anyway. Law's here state that such an agreement should be made available on the moment of purchase, not on opening the box or booting the system for the first time. Since there's no way to read the EULA without doing said things, it has no legla meaning. So it doesn't matter what's in EULA's for us, and I'd hate to really need to be an expert at such things just to run some software.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Trogre]

That is an interesting case that I was not aware of. But are you certain it applies here?

Does one have the "opportunity to reject the terms once [we] [have] read them"? Can we get a refund at the store if we don't agree to the terms? If not then one might have a hard time convincing a court that the licence was enforceable since no exit was provided.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Intron]

ISTR that in Canada, contract law varies by province.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[WingedEarth]

OS: Mac OSX Office: openoffice.org or neooffice Outlook: mail.app and iCal (but not Thunderbird as it's the sux0r) Browser: Camino or Firefox Time to phase out Microsoft. I don't think anyone takes MSN or Microsoft Imaging or Windows Media Player or other Microsoft products all that seriously, so I won't bother.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[aaza]

I should not need a lawyer to help with installing a piece of software.
The fact that I might need to speaks volumes about how customers are treated.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Anonymous Coward]

I prefer to use a modified install to renegotiate the contract required to install it or barring that have a 12 year old (ie someone who can't be legally held to a contract) do my installs. EULA's should be legal fictions based on first sale. Ah well for a perfect world :)

Re:Read your license agreement.

[Anonymous Coward]

That particular case only applies in the district of the Seventh Circuit court. That is, it is only binding on the activities of those in the U.S. states in the seventh circuit and only until it is overturned. It is neat how you can use it to return opened items that require acceptance of a partially unseen EULA for use. Though that quirk should be telling on why it should be overturned.

Re:Read your license agreement.

[syousef]

Yes, I bet you've read every software license for every piece of software you've ever installed, and called your lawyer to help clarify when you've not understood. It's also a trivial matter to renegotiate that or find a new OS vendor that sells a product that will allow you to use your existing software.

You should be allowed to post anonymous HYPOCRITE coward.

Time for a new computer

[SeaSolder]

So, if the replacement MoBo costs about 4x what other boards cost, then it is likely in the multiple-hundreds of dollars to replace the thing. My suggestion would tell eMachines to go to "the hot place downstairs", and purchase a new computer from one of the larger manufacturers. You can get them relatively inexpensively, and hey, you could even get one loaded with that abomination called Vista! On another note, you could also repair the computer, and use it to play around with Linux. I have noticed though, that a number of the budget manufacturers don't even include recovery disks with their computers, but rather they have a "recovery partition" on the hard drive. So this is all well and good, until the HD crashes, and your recovery partition is gone. I suppose this is just another case of "You get what you pay for".

Re:Time for a new computer

[Joe The Dragon]

Way pay $300 - $500 for a new lowend system or more for a good system when all you need is a $50 - $150 MB?
your old system may have more ram then new one and the new one may use differnt ram that you can move over form the old one. DDR2 is not that much faster then DDR1 and 1gb - 2gb of ram is faster then havening 512mb.
your old system may have a big IDE HD that is bigger then what comes with a newer lowend system and the newer system may only have 1 ide port that is being used by the cd / dvd drive.
your old system may have a good AGP card and new low end one may only have a pci-e slot and lowend on board video.

Re:Time for a new computer

[zippthorne]

The recovery partitions typically come with a method for producing a reinstall CD for just that very problem. Obviously, you need to generate the CD before anything happens though. Scummily, they don't exactly go out of their way to let you know about this feature. It's in the manual, but not exactly in large print under a sticker demanding you run it before anything else.

Re:Time for a new computer

[Urza9814]

So it's better to spend $500 for a new comp than $50 for a new mobo? 'Cause I have never even considered spending over $50 on a mobo. I currently have a nice A-Bit, supports up to 8GB of RAM (currently have in 3.5. heh), an AMD64, and all the standard features, which I got for $50. '4x what other boards cost' could be $100. Hell, I've even seen 'em for cheaper. As for the OEMs not including true recovery disks (I say OEMs instead of 'budget manufacturers' becaue I highly doubt that most people would consider Gateway, HP, and Compaq 'budget manufacturers'), you can usually get a real install CD off them for $5-10. Pain in the ass, yes, but not that big of a deal. They usually make it pretty damn hard to get to those recovery partitions too.

Re:Time for a new computer

[demachina]

I tend to agree with the grand parent. Unless the box is under warranty or relatively new, repairing a 2+ year old system is usually not worth the hassle, unless you are a hard core tinkerer or know someone who is willing to work for free. Technology advances at a pace, you know Moore's law, denser memory, higher capacity drives, new GPU's etc, that you could buy a low end machine now that will probably dust your old high end machine. If you can use some of the peripherals off the old box and not buy them on the new one, all the better. By the time a human being diagnoses that you need a new motherboard, you find, order, ship, and install it, hope everything works, have hassles with Windows like this you probably would have been ahead in the game getting a new box, that is probably faster and better, and is under a nice warranty for a while. You also wont have been without a computer for a week or weeks. If the old box failed because of some power spike and absence of surge protection, then everything else in it is going to be a little suspect too. The one challenge is if you have a ton of apps that it might be a problem to move over.

I've also stopped buying high end desktops and laptops all together for personal use. They just aren't worth the money any more since they are obsolete in a year or two. The cheap low end machines do all most people need, the exception is hard core 3D gaming, where at least a mid level box is advised. If you buy a cheap low end machine you can upgrade much more often than if you spend a couple grand on a high end machine that stops looking high end in a year but you cling to it far to long because it cost you so much in the first place, This is especially true for laptops.

I almost never buy memory upgrades for old machines either. Too much hassle and expense. Buy plenty of RAM when its new and when you reach the point its not enough its time to get a new machine.

Just pirate it

[Rix]

It's less work.

Re:Just pirate it

[Anonymous Coward]

Unethical behaviour by one party does not justify reciprocation by taking illegal measures. Or put another way, although I know it sounds cliche, two wrongs do not make a right.

And yeah... it can often be hard work to do the right thing, and we might feel hard done by when someone does wrong by us, but who ever said life was fair?

Re:Just pirate it

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't wrong to make any reasonable use of something you bought. End of story. As for what constitutes reasonable use, common sense should apply. Ethical is surprisingly rarely coincident with legal.

Re:Just pirate it

[the eric conspiracy]

In fact the ease of doing the illegal thing is probably slowing the uptake of Linux. If Microsoft were to become even more aggressive in enforcing its licensing provisions, and as well increasing OS prices, we would no doubt see more people and organizations turning to Linux.

The trend seems to favor this; every time I see a news item on Slashdot along these lines I give a small cheer. Let's hope that MS and DRM really make stealing Vista a much bigger big pain in the neck.

Re:Just pirate it

[Anonymous Coward]

Not unethical or illegal. He has already paid for a license for product in question. not to mention its going to be used on the same computer.

Re:Just pirate it

[Anonymous Coward]

that sounds real high and mighty and all but my friend has a macbook i let him use my dell xp pro cd key/license whatever that is from xp version 2002 or some such shit and he told India phone guy yeah it's on a mac yeah it's probably on ten computers... thanks that key worked take care
you can also go to comp usa etc.. and copy a key off the 'bout hundred boxen laying about

Re:Just pirate it

[Anonymous Coward]

If he paid for a license he most certainly has the right to use that license, but that license does _NOT_ include the right to obtain another pirated copy from somebody else. I have yet to see these sorts of things happen where legal solutions aren't also available... just slightly more work and running around to do than simply pirating a copy.

But hey, isn't it usually the case that doing the easy thing is often also the wrong thing? Isn't the intrinsic value of having ethics and standards that it requires some _effort_ to keep them?

Re:Just pirate it

[uradu]

> but who ever said life was fair?

Right, and who ever said that the consumer should always be the one behaving fairly?

Re:Just pirate it

[dcam]

The trend seems to favor this; every time I see a news item on Slashdot along these lines I give a small cheer.

You must be hoarse.

Only Old People Repair Computers Now

[blueZhift]

Your case illustrates all too clearly why it is pointless to repair a computer that you didn't build yourself anymore. In the case of eMachines, I would guess that the OS license is explicitly tied to eMachines hardware only. In other words, you would have had to send the machine to eMachines for repairs. They probably would have ended up replacing the whole thing, if they accepted it at all. If they refused then you're just stuck buying a brand new machine or as it looks like you'll have to do, buy a new copy of Windows XP. Any cost savings of self repair of a box built by a 3rd party like eMachines or Dell, is killed by licensing and software activation.

If you have the time/money, sure go for the class action lawsuit. If not, see if you can pick up an OEM/System Builder copy of XP.

Easy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Either get a key from the web or install Linux, Its your PC, you can do what you want with it.

MS and or e-machines would come off in a bad light if they tried to sue you for a key of your choosing...

Ouch

[Anonymous Coward]

Just another OEM thorn in your side. -Verte

Re:Solution can be found here:

[jacksonic]

Perhaps there's a reason why long posts full of links are considered lame...

Re:Solution can be found here:

[psykocrime]

Perhaps there's a reason why long posts full of links are considered lame...

Yes

because

the

slashdot

lameness

filter

only understands

the notion

of characters

per line

but doesn't

understand the

semantics of the

text it's

looking at.

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Not an activation issue

[Joe5678]

Judging from all the people telling him to get a new activation key from Microsoft, the summary isn't very clear, but this guys problem isn't an activation issue (I think). It's the fact that his OEM Windows disc will not load because it's now detecting that it's not an e-machines computer anymore. e-machines is the problem here.

Re:Not an activation issue

[Loki_1929]

You're probably right, but he's still not completely out of luck. If he can get his hands on a Windows XP disc that's the same version (ie Home/Pro, same SP number included, etc) as what was originally installed, he should be able to use the OEM key included with the machine to get Windows installed. He'll then have to call Microsoft and tell them the hard drive went bad, mainboard was replaced, etc, and he should have a fully functional standalone Windows XP installation.

Vis-a-vis the licensing, Microsoft can blow it out their ass. You purchase a license to run Windows XP when you buy the system, meaning you've paid money to Microsoft. Microsoft can throw all the legalese garbage into the EULA that they like and a court will tell them just where to stick it if they try going after someone doing what I just described above.

Re:Not an activation issue

[FoamingToad]

You may have a point - although what was said above is still worth a try. The e-machine I had in received an OEM board - and changed processor architecture (Celeron -> Socket 939 AMD). However I just booted the machine up "to see what would happen" - to my surprise after an extra few minutes of thrashing the disc, the machine was up and asking for reactivation.

If it had required a rebuild, I may have looked at my 7-in-1 disc or the VLK edition, but as it happened no reinstallation was necessary - XP recovered itself sufficiently.

However I concede the point that you usually need to do an in-place upgrade when changing such a major part of your hardware environment.

F_T

Re:Not an activation issue

[Endo13]

You're probably right, but he's still not completely out of luck. If he can get his hands on a Windows XP disc that's the same version (ie Home/Pro, same SP number included, etc) as what was originally installed, he should be able to use the OEM key included with the machine to get Windows installed. He'll then have to call Microsoft and tell them the hard drive went bad, mainboard was replaced, etc, and he should have a fully functional standalone Windows XP installation. Actually, it's even easier than that. All he needs do is get his hands on an OEM disk for whatever version of XP he has a key for (most likely XP Home). XP install keys differentiate only between Home, Pro, or Media Center, and then between OEM or Retail. Nothing else matters. I work at a PC repair shop, and I've reinstalled WinXP on Dells, HPs, Compaqs, Emachines, and more very often. I use the same disks for all of them, unless the customer happens to have the disks (or restore partion on the hard drive) provided them by the manufacturer.

When it comes to activation, it will most likely tell you that your product key is invalid. I'm not sure exactly why (my best guess is that they use some kind of generic volume key when they install it the first time), but all you need to is click the "Telephone" button, hit the drop-down menu for your country, and then dial the toll-free number provided. (1-888-571-2048 for USA) You'll get an automated system that blathers on until it finally says "ok, let's get started." At this point, hit 0 on your phone (the system will tell you something like "I see you would like to talk to a representative blah blah blah"), then hit 1. This will connect you to a live human (in India I believe) who can talk more or less plain English, and at any rate understands the numbers you tell them a great deal better than the automated system does. They'll ask you for the first 6 numbers, tell you they need a few seconds to validate it, then they'll ask you some questions. (What software are you activating today? Is this the first time you are activating this software? On how many other computers is this software installed?) After one or two of these questions they'll ask you for the rest of the numbers (you don't need to read the first 6 again). Then they'll say they need a few seconds to validate those, and ask you a couple of the questions (which may or may not be the exact same questions they asked you 30 seconds earlier). Then they'll read off the confirmation numbers 3 at a time, which you'll type in the boxes, and that's pretty much it.

Re:Not an activation issue

[C10H14N2]

Yep. A good number of people don't seem to grasp that by getting Windows pre-loaded, they've not purchased a Windows license, their manufacturer has, ergo why it is tied to the specific hardware and you don't get an install disk, you get a "recovery" disk, if anything at all. You can't "RE-purchase the OS" if you never really purchased it in the first place.

I wish they'd give the option of OEM install or blank system with retail box version, but nooooo, rather than your first act of ownership being spending an hour installing the OS, you end up spending an hour UN-installing all the crappy OEM bullshit, trialware and advertising.

Re:Not an activation issue

[Fez]

Even better: The phone system says to *tell* it the numbers, but the numbers on the phone keypad work. They even work for yes/no 1=yes, 2=no. I hate, hate, hate voice recognition systems. Being able to just push the digits like mad is much easier, and speeds the process way up.

After punching in the numbers, the system still fails to activate -- because Microsoft locks major brand OEM keys to a single automated activation -- but then you do not have to repeat all 50-brazillion digits vocally to the person on the other end.

I'm not sure where Microsoft's call center is for that, but I suspect they have several. Once I got into a queue where the recording and the person on the other end both had very British accents.

And now back to the topic at hand: I've seen many motherboards replaced in OEM PCs, and never had a problem getting a key from Microsoft, but I also used generic OEM media and not the CD provided by the manufacturer.

Re:Not an activation issue

[kb0rwi]

Well said. I always have built my computers. Pre-built systems suffer from poor licensing and embedded codes on the disk to mach only the original CPU, and this re-activating should be a simple solution if you only replaced a MoBo.

Re:Not an activation issue

[amper]

Most every time I've called, I've gotten someone with a heavy Indian accent, indicating that the call center is probably somewhere in/around the Subcontinent. Which, of course would explain the "Queen's English" accent for some of more fluent speakers of English, being as most places outside of strong American influence tend to learn their English the old fashioned way, and well, India has a long history with the UK.

In any case, I'd like to point out that there are many more types of XP license keys than a previous poster indicated. There are OEM, Retail, and VLA versions for each form of Windows, plus keys from later SP2 CDs won't work with older CDs. There may even be other issues that I just haven't come across.

I discovered part of this recently while performing a company-wide XP migration of about 50 or so machines. A large group of the machines had been purchased right around the time XP came out, but the company elected to stay with Windows 2000 because it was deemed that XP was too new to be trusted. So, separate licenses for Win2K were obtained, the disks were wiped, and the machines Ghosted. Now, these machines had the recovery image on the original HDD, but the installation company didn't preserve them, and neither IBM or Lenovo would provide restore disks for these machines (either that, or we just couldn't find the right people to talk to at the installation company, IBM, or Lenovo). So, XP Pro SP2 OEM disks were used from a few new machines to re-install.

The license keys on the IBM boxes worked fine for the install, but activation failed for every unit. I spent quite a long time calling the activation number and manually activating all those machines. Fun, fun, fun. Well, at least the Microsoft people don't give you a whole lot more grief over it. That would just be adding insult to injury.

That said, my favorite is when the restore image is on the HDD, but the original HDD fails. Of course, hardly anyone ever bothers to make the restore CDs from the images, but in some cases I've been able to clone the recovery partition and transfer that to a new HDD. In other cases, the bizarre partitioning schemes used by some of the OEMs to do this trickery has gotten in the way in a rather intrusive fashion, causing it to be more work than necessary.

I can't tell you how many people I've converted to Macs after having them watch me recover a machine like this. With a Mac, at least you can generally boot from an external drive and fix the problem, plus there's no stupid registry and SUID issues to deal with. Macs are much, much easier, and far, far less costly to fix.

Re:Not an activation issue

[julesh]

Yep. A good number of people don't seem to grasp that by getting Windows pre-loaded, they've not purchased a Windows license, their manufacturer has, ergo why it is tied to the specific hardware and you don't get an install disk, you get a "recovery" disk, if anything at all.

No, actually, they've purchased whatever it said on the advert next to the computer when they handed over their cash. If it said "Windows XP", then they're entitled to either (a) a copy of Windows XP or (b) a refund. It should say "Windows XP* ... * Preloaded only, recovery disk included" or something like that... but most manufacturers don't bother.

I've successfully got a refund for an XP license from DSG (large UK retail chain) in court with this argument.

Re:Not an activation issue

[C10H14N2]

They should be more specific and offer that option, which would pretty effectively communicate the difference through price alone. "Computer w/no OS: $300 vs. Computer w/preloaded OEM license: $350 vs. Computer w/ user-installable boxed copy of OS: $450." If you were awarded compenstation for the latter after paying for the former, I'd argue the court was in error, since, no, you never did pay for a full end-user copy.

Re:Not an activation issue

[mr_e_cat]

That's why so many people died protecting it.

So are you in Iraq then. Or are you just a talker? I think I can guess buddy.

Re:Solution can be found here:

[Aladrin]

I dunno, I think the lameness filter caught that one pretty well.

This issue had NOTHING to do with choice of OS. It only had to do with Windows and what could be done about hardware-change-invalidation of it.

I love Linux. If it played all my Windows games, Kubuntu would be the only OS on my system. But that has nothing to do with this issue.

Easy compared to what?

[babbling]

When you say it's "easy", are you aware that previous versions of Windows didn't even need a special key that depended on hardware, and that you didn't need to call Microsoft to ask "can I please install the copy of Windows I purchased from you a couple of years ago?" only to be interrogated about why you need a new key.

I'm sure it's easy relative to what they could put you through, but can we please be absolute when using the word "easy"? Especially when Microsoft have gone out of their way to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Balthisar]

>>but can we please be absolute when using the word "easy"?

Actually, speaking absolutely, it *is* easy. Relatively speaking (in relation to how we think it should be) is when it becomes difficult.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[n2art2]

You cannot be absolute with a relative word. The use of the word "easy" is an opinion and thus relative to the one making that opinion. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but can we please not berate the grandparent for his use of the word "easy" when you obviously want to attribute it to a state of absolute that the word itself cannot attain.

Meaning. . . . Get over it.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Buran]

Not only that but what about hearing-impaired people like me who find the phone an aggravation and want to be able to do it all online because it's a lot easier to read than it is to listen? Why can't we use the OS' automated activation tools? Why are we in some cases forced to call?

Seems to me like someone might have a good ADA case here -- why should I not be allowed to use something legally purchased because I am forced to jump through hoops that I can't jump through because of a physical disability? To me, this is as bad as a failure to install a wheelchair ramp.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[CastrTroy]

You could always use an intermediary teletype operator.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[DaveV1.0]

First, your comment is irrelevant.

Second, such actions would not be necessary if people didn't make illegal, unauthorized copies of software to use, sell, trade, or give away. Perhaps if people were more honest, such things would not be necessary. Personally, I find it funny that anyone complains, as such things have been going on since the early 80s.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, the windows activation screen provides you with a TTY number to call if you are deaf.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you tried it? It *IS* easy. I have had to do it as well.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it great that the dishonest people with the pirated copies never have to worry about their activation keys? It's just the folks that do things the right way that get hosed.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Second, such actions would not be necessary if people didn't make illegal, unauthorized copies of software to use, sell, trade, or give away. Perhaps if people were more honest, such things would not be necessary. Personally, I find it funny that anyone complains, as such things have been going on since the early 80s.

Perhaps we're basing our business model on a level of honesty that doesn't exist in human beings?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[DaveV1.0]

Maybe. But, then the political philosophy in your screen name can not exist without that level of honesty.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[compwizrd]

What about those deaf enough that talking to someone with a heavy accent is a problem, but don't use a TTY since their hearing isn't bad enough to warrant one?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Blakey Rat]

And what if halfway through the call, suddenly an asteroid falls into their living room and then their phone line is cut off!

Seriously, I know Slashdotters are anti-social and hate talking to people, but can the damned excuses. Either you can use a phone, or you can use TTY. You can come up with crazy situations all day long, but it all comes down to that.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Gr8Apes]

>>but can we please be absolute when using the word "easy"?

Actually, speaking absolutely, it *is* easy. Relatively speaking (in relation to how we think it should be) is when it becomes difficult. Actually, it's unbelievably complicated. Why do I need to call anyone when installing software? Needless complications imposed by the manufacturer is why.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Buran]

And count on them to get something like this right? They won't. Besides, the whole point of online activation is that that's not necessary. Forcing calls is just unacceptable, and just adds one more reason on the "why I won't use their software" pile.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[644bd346996]

Oh, come on! Even for people with good hearing, understanding sombody in a loud call center in bangalore is hard. For somebody who uses a hearing aid, it can easily be impossible to communicate bidirectionally. And there are many people who have hearing aids but do not have access to a TTY. This is a realistic scenario, and one that microsoft must be prepared for. Remember, Microsoft chose to use activation. It is solely their responsibility to make it accessible to their customers.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[sfurious]

You can come up with crazy situations all day long,

Product activation itself *is* crazy. There's no need to spend all day coming up with additional situations.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[David Horn]

Of course, if no one pirated it they would have no need to apply protection.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear ya! (Please pardon the pun!)

Just understand that trying to communicate with "Steve" or "Mary" over in Bangalore isn't easy for those of us who can hear either!

Re:Easy compared to what?

[MightyYar]

So THAT'S why ATMs don't consist of just a big pile of money and a clipboard...

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

That's where the Hacker part comes in....:-) I believe we can design a better system than Marx described (either of the systems he described- after all, the stock market still runs on Marx's description of Capitalistic Principles). It just takes actual engineering.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, Microsoft chose to use activation. It is solely their responsibility to make it accessible to their customers. The customers chose to use Microsoft products.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[doctor proteus]

Good point. I work on a blue water sailing vessel with three or four PCs and it is an absolute nightmare if we need to reinstall windows or even adobe creative suite whilst in the middle of the Atlantic. Not to mention data calls are either too slow to do online activation, or cost $14 per minute for single channel ISDN. On top of that we go through so many hard drives due to the boats constant slamming and movement that we are often asked why we have activated so many time in the past. All I can think is why do we have to spend even more money on satcom charges to install licensed software?

Inevitable solution? (Other than decent backups) simply use a pirated copy and WGA crack. A sad state of affairs indeed.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[andreamer]

There's always Internet Relay -- you don't need a TTY machine for that. I guarantee you they would be delighted to help someone with a legitimate hearing problem, since 90% of what they're used for is Nigerian scams.

Not that I think anyone should have to call Microsoft. I had to call them when I upgraded my PC also -- I guess I added one too many new pieces of hardware. It was a pain in the neck, but it wasn't insurmountable. All they need to hear is that there is only one machine running that copy of Windows.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[gforce811]

When you say it's "easy", are you aware that previous versions of Windows didn't even need a special key that depended on hardware, and that you didn't need to call Microsoft to ask "can I please install the copy of Windows I purchased from you a couple of years ago?" only to be interrogated about why you need a new key.

In all honesty, I've had to call them multiple times to install XP when I would reformat. If the repairs to your computer number enough to warrant that many reinstallations, you get the same "cannot activate" crap that many users with Vista will encounter. To me, this is just more of the (albeit bad) same.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Retric]

You should look into using a sold state HDD.

Granted, they are not large and they are not cheep, but they are FAST, use less energy and don't care about vibration etc.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[SithLordOfLanc]

Easy is not an absolute word, it can only be used in a relative sense. It's easy for me to build a computer. It is NOT easy for my father to build one.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I keep reading about these Internet Relay things, and I really want to try one. Any links?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[compwizrd]

Yeah, unfortunately they don't have internet relay up here in Canada that i've ever found, if i want to abide by the ToS.. there's a few US ones that might work, but they don't allow non-US residents to use them.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't get his point. You are correct, it is harder than it should be, and he acknowledged that. However, making a phone call and talking to someone for a few minutes is not actually hard. He's not so much disagreeing with you as saying that despite the fact that it's not what it should be, it's not actually a difficult thing to accomplish.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am so tired of coming to this site and for some reasoning feeling the urge to read the comments to see what other "people" (if that's what you can call the majority of posters here) think about the issue at hand.

First of all, this person clearly does not understand the XP key process, and does not realize that the hardware changes comes across as a system change. Second of all, he clearly did not call Microsoft to try and fix the problem. Lastly, he went from A to C by trying to get money out of Microsoft because he is too stupid to call Microsoft to fix the problem that the first two posters have already said is doable.

As for the post I am responding to, it is very easy to pick on the process as being difficult in comparison to past releases of Windows because they did not have quite the robust anti-pirating security in place in past systems because the infrastructure would have been a lot harder to build, more expensive to maintain, and easier to break years prior to XP. Based on the number of copies both stolen (pirated or physically) AND sold of Windows, it makes sense that Microsoft would want to protect its product from being stolen. It is almost guaranteed to be the number one most pirated piece of software out there. I can only imagine the millions upon millions of dollars that are lost because of pirated copies of Windows both at the business and personal (home) level.

Now, the number of iterations (5) to use XP with simple or no hardware changes does seem rather arbitrary, and I feel pretty safe in saying that it probably was mostly arbitrary after considering a semi-reasonable amount of reformatting before it gets to the point of being suspicious (reformatting 3 times in one week sounds UNreasonable to me; it's more likely that the user is setting up 3 computers with the same key, or just one very unlucky person). Businesses, which would have a site license removing this step completely, avoid this problem altogether, which brings us to the most likely person to pirate Windows (of course, smaller businesses would license their computers individually, but good businesses would have some sort of a disc image saved to just throw on a computer and be good-to-go like Norton Ghost allows; otherwise they are just poorly planning, and even if a worm trapsed across their internal network, then they would likely still have four attempts left without calling, nor would there be any huge hardware shifts requiring a check-up with the mothership (Microsoft)). An individual that feels that they are too small of a target to go after, and they are probably right. So, in order to provide some hurdles for would-be pirates, I can understand Microsoft adding a VERY thin layer of protection to their products.

If you are really afraid of Microsoft's big-and-bad anti-piracy plan, then you either do not understand the process or you are insulted with the insinuation that you may be stealing your copy (and I wouldn't put that past anyone on these threads that say "M$" as opposed to "MS," but I would not even exclude the others either). Being a programmer of software that sells for quite a bit more than individual copies of Windows (even Vista Ultimate), I can understand the burden that this puts on our users. At the same time, the addition of such a key system has increased the profits from each of our software packages because our business accepts POs, among other such purchase methods, which allow businesses to pay later. Of course, a lot of them convienently used to forget to pay on anything resembling a timely fashion, but now they always pay within 2 months (guess when the software stops working?). Now, personal copies of Windows are not going to be purchased using POs, and do not really warrant the use of the key scheme for that regard, but I know of numerous people that would buy one copy of Windows and just go around installing it on their friends computers for them (if they were allowed). Especially in the DIY market of PC users (people that build their own computers), this would ha

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Achromatic1978]

Remember, Microsoft chose to use activation. It is solely their responsibility to make it accessible to their customers.

They do have accessible options. That you don't like them or find them less than perfect does not negate their existence.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

The "no phone" thing is silly. What if you had no hands instead of being hard of hearing? My guess is that you'd demand to use the phone instead of the internet. Yes, using the phone is difficult for people with hearing disabilities, but no more so than using a stick in the mouth to work the keyboard to do it on the internet.

The fact is that diabilities make your life hard. Companies are required by law to make reasonable accomidations, but they can not make you whole again. A teletype operator is a reasonable accomidation.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Achromatic1978]

Hang on, your data speed on the water is too slow to do online activation (understandable), but yet you hit WGA activation issues? The same WGA that only gets triggered by downloading patches and updates etc etc? If your data speed is fast enough for that, it's not "too slow" for online activation.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

have you tried that? not easy, even worse when you need to give account numbers and passwords

Re:Easy compared to what?

[KevinKnSC]

How about installing and activating everything in port, and then just backup the partition with g4u or the System Rescue CD? Then, if you do ever need to reinstall it, you just restore your already activated partition from a burned DVD? It's legal, faster, and is a much better way to do things even if you always have a highspeed connection.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Second, such actions would not be necessary if people didn't make illegal, unauthorized copies of software to use, sell, trade, or give away. Perhaps if people were more honest, such things would not be necessary. Personally, I find it funny that anyone complains, as such things have been going on since the early 80s.

They weren't neccessary when people were dishonest either. MS had its biggest growth period when people were pirating it left and right. I know many people that believe this piracy was actually responsible for this growth.

Many people cut their teeth on pirated copy of Windows or Office and then took the skills to work with these products to businesses that always bought legal software. The users demanded Microsoft products because that's what they used in thier pirate days.

The same thing is happening with Linux now. It's growing because people can easily get it and now some of those people are starting to ask for it, espeically in piracy prone third world nations. Naturally, Linux doesn't care about piracy, but the same, "I learned it for free, so now I want it for everything" rule applies.

Business can do whatever is legal for them to do. This is legal for Microsoft. But we don't have to like it and we don't even have to accept it as long as there are alternatives. It's a short-sighted business practice that is likely to bite them in the but at some point. If they finally did "fix" the piracy issues, people without much money would simply switch to something they could afford, and then all those people, and there are quite a lot of them, will ask for thier favorite product at work.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[justfred]

Thus we have the inherent problem of most, if not all DRM - it makes things harder and more annoying for legitimate users, while crackers/thieves/mass copiers will easily find a way around it.

Personally I have less of a moral problem "stealing" things that are locked down, than things that are opened up. I pay for shareware and most of my entertainment. But having to jump through hoops to run Windows? That's why I recommend Unix or MacOSX. That and the fact that they're so superior.

Maybe Microsoft could spent more time properly engineering their software in the first place to make it worth buying, and less time trying to keep legitimate owners from "stealing" it?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[cp.tar]

The moral of the story: steal Windows.

It's not worth the money anyway.

But it's a funny world we live in, where stealing seems to bring you elss trouble than buying - and that's leaving money out of the equation.

I mean, really... if you buy Windows, you didn't really buy it as such. You bought a license to use it on one computer under the exact conditions provided by Microsoft, take it or leave it.
If you steal it, however... why, you don't have a worry in your life (BSA is not all-powerful, after all) - not only do you steal a license, but you steal so much that you can disregard the license altogether. Hey, you stole it, you might as well steal all the way.

Which only goes to prove: if you know something about computers, one way or the other, you'll stop paying for software.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Mister Whirly]

And are you aware that complex calculations used to be done on an abacus? This fact, like yours about previous MS OS not needing activation, are both irrelevant. You used to be able to use leaded gas, and were NOT required to wear seatbelts too. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China, or what MS currently requires with XP?
It is pretty common knowledge at this point that tinkering with your hardware may require you to re-activate your copy of XP. Don't like it or agree? Then use another OS that doesn't have those stipulations. I have never heard of someone who legitimately owned a licence to XP that couldn't get their OS re-activated with a simple phonoe call to MS. Because it is more of an inconvenience than people are used to, MS is surprisingly easy to deal with on this issue. I had to do it once for a customer I replaced a motherboard for - and I was up and re-activated within 5 minutes. That seems absolutely "easy" to me.

I expect to be modded down by the anti-MS crowd who would rather complain then face reality, so go ahead. I'll still sleep okay tonight...

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I mean look how Communism has fared so well in other locations. The strong and proud Russia is doing just swell. And the Chinese are shining examples of how all workers are treated fairly. Oh, wait.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[suckmysav]

"Personally, I find it funny that anyone complains, as such things have been going on since the early 80s."

Personally, I find it funny ironic that Microsoft attained their present state of near-monopoly on the backs of the very pirates that they are now working so hard to close down.

I find it even more ironic that they choose to be much more lenient towards piracy in the developing world where they have still not managed to attain the state of vendor lock-in that is required in order for them to successfully pursue more onerous anti-piracy measures without running the risk of turning their future potential customers towards alternatives such as Linux.

Microsoft, eating their cake and having it too!

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Discordantus]

Which only goes to prove: if you know something about computers, one way or the other, you'll stop paying for software.

I've come to the point where I consider paying for multimedia and software an altruistic act. I'll pay for software or music if I feel I should support whoever is getting that money. So I still pay for some shareware, and purchase content from the artists. But that's pretty much it.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[frdmfghtr]

Hang on, your data speed on the water is too slow to do online activation (understandable), but yet you hit WGA activation issues? The same WGA that only gets triggered by downloading patches and updates etc etc? If your data speed is fast enough for that, it's not "too slow" for online activation.

I think you misunderstood the comment. The point in mentioning WGA is that it will cause trouble when trying to update a cracked OS installation. The need for a WGA crack is independent of the data connection. Presumably this update process is done in port where the data connection is a cheaper land line of some sort.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Skal Tura]

Plus on top of that there's been circulating versions with automated installation processes, almost nothing is being asked, and
a lot of software installed right away like photoshop, IM clients, office etc. etc.
Sounds really easy, i think it was called Nemesis.

Couldn't find with google anything else than a few forum posts, but i think i saw in some bigger news outlet something about it long ago.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Yep- oh wait- Leninism and Maoism != communism, in fact had very little to do with communism other than window dressing.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's easier than using an activation crack!

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. To run activation crack you don't even need to call Microsoft. Just click.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[frdmfghtr]

And are you aware that complex calculations used to be done on an abacus? This fact, like yours about previous MS OS not needing activation, are both irrelevant. You used to be able to use leaded gas, and were NOT required to wear seatbelts too. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China, or what MS currently requires with XP?
It is pretty common knowledge at this point that tinkering with your hardware may require you to re-activate your copy of XP. Don't like it or agree? Then use another OS that doesn't have those stipulations. I have never heard of someone who legitimately owned a licence to XP that couldn't get their OS re-activated with a simple phonoe call to MS. Because it is more of an inconvenience than people are used to, MS is surprisingly easy to deal with on this issue. I had to do it once for a customer I replaced a motherboard for - and I was up and re-activated within 5 minutes. That seems absolutely "easy" to me.

Activating previous versions of the OS was easier--they didn't require activation at all. That, I believe, is the original point the poster was addressing--the ease of an OS reinstallation.

"Easy" is relative. Making that short call is easy. Activating online is easier. Not activating at all is easier still. That was the original point being made.

Your remark about the abacus is also backwards. Complex math was made EASIER by using a calculator, not harder. Activation, while easy in your mind, is still harder than "no activation required." Pumping leaded vs. unleaded gas into your car is irrelevant, since both are equally easy to do.

(Oh, before you accuse me of being an anti-MS fanboy, I do use an OS that doesn't require activation. Two, really: OS X and Win2K)

Re:Easy compared to what?

[BobPaul]

As much as I hate activation (it's a major reason I left the platform) I have to take issue with your post.

Everytime I've called (at least a dozen times) has been:
1. Enter code from screen.
2. Invalid, enter again.
3. Invalid, hold for specialist
4. Provide code.
5. Answer no to "Is this installed anywhere else?"
6. Enter code provided

A single question does not an interrogation make.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[cheater512]

WHAT?! I'm going deaf?

I thought no one could understand those kinds of people.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[cheater512]

I know people who buy XP and then install a pirated version just because its far easier.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[try_anything]

making a phone call and talking to someone for a few minutes is not actually hard

If that were true, we'd all be out flirting with girls instead of fiddling with our computers and posting on Slashdot.

(Just kidding, in a yeah-but-maybe-there's-something-to-it way.)

Re:Easy compared to what?

[KingOfBLASH]

Dude....

1. Upgrade your computer
2. Call up Microsoft.
3. Sue their sorry asses
4. Profit!!!!!

Re:Easy compared to what?

[rifter]

Hang on, your data speed on the water is too slow to do online activation (understandable), but yet you hit WGA activation issues? The same WGA that only gets triggered by downloading patches and updates etc etc? If your data speed is fast enough for that, it's not "too slow" for online activation.

No, he did not say he has Windows Genuine Advantage issues. He said that he had to reinstall (or restore) Windows after the hard drive died, which requires activation. If you install Windows you have a limited time to get it activated, and every time you lose a drive you have to go through this again. (Not to mention how often you have to reinstall anyhow just to overcome the cruft and barnacles that build up on a typical Windows installation).

Re:Easy compared to what?

[dave562]

It is easy. I've had to do this numerous times. I give the same answer EVERY SINGLE TIME. When they ask me why I need a new key, I tell them, "The motherboard failed and I had to replace it." That's it. They give me the new key and I go about my merry way.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Mister Whirly]

The remarks about the abacus and leaded gas had nothing to do with the argument about being "easy". They didn't have anything at all to do with the argument. That was exactly my point. It doesn't matter how "easy" it used to be when you didn't have to activate Windows. We live in the present where you do if you choose to use XP. (Notice the word "choose" - no matter what anybody claims, no person is "forced" to use Windows XP.) If you long for the days of old, feel free to install Windows 98 or even (shudder) ME if you want - nobody is stopping you.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[hamfactorial]

And what if halfway through the call, suddenly an asteroid falls into their living room and then their phone line is cut off! I think Apple would be fairly upset about this insider information suddenly falling into the laps of the technically-inclined.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[geekoid]

In the eraly 80, and sooner, it was common practice to share. The fact that you mention honesty when the corporation that sell software have corrupted the intent of copyright and the very industries that made them billions. If it wasn't for the attitude of the 80's and earlier Microsoft would exist, and the Personal computer would be a blue box running some matured version of OS/2.

Apple's very roots go to sharing information and building there computer upon informatuion given to them and then latter claiming they owned it.

Now these companies made billions and billions of dollars and experienced incredible growth prior to this DRM nonsense, and the only reason for DRM is to allow for stagnation. DRM is just a tool to lock you into the system when they can't create something to compete. So stop talking abuot 'Honest'. It has nothing to do with the conversation.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[TeraCo]

You're being relative though. Relative to how it used to be, it is harder. But in absolute terms, ringing someone isn't difficult at all.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[The Angry Mick]

Perhaps we're basing our business model on a level of honesty that doesn't exist in human beings?

It's better to have a business model that recognizes honesty to have one that operates on the assumption that all customers are potential thieves.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[soft_guy]

Windows isn't worth stealing either. Get Linux.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[marcosdumay]

What is kind of ironical (or dumb, you choose), since people pirate it regardless of protection. And pirated copies are better than original, since they don't require activation.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Second, such actions would not be necessary if people didn't make illegal, unauthorized copies of software to use, sell, trade, or give away. Perhaps if people were more honest, such things would not be necessary. Personally, I find it funny that anyone complains, as such things have been going on since the early 80s.

Yeah, but the vast majority of those who knowingly have an illegal copy don't have to jump through these hoops. They use a corporate version that doesn't require activation. They may run into trouble with Windows Updates, but they don't really care about that either as they simply don't want to pay for Windows XP. Every time MS updates their anti-piracy measures in Windows Update and Windows Genuine Advantage/Notifications there's ways to defeat it within days. The real pirates just wait until someone breaks it, then update, they probably have less hassle than some legit customers even dealing with all that. The only people this affects are those trying to be legit and those who ended up with an illegal copy unknowingly. I suspect the amount of people affected by activation issues are mostly the former, and they're the ones who shouldn't be affected by all this crap. They did nothing wrong, they have a legit copy of XP, they're not trying to pirate anything. You can certainly make the case that the latter group do need to deal with the hassle so that Microsoft can find out about dodgy companies selling illegal copies of XP (and other software), but is it really worth it to antagonize all those legit customers?

While the article doesn't say if the author spoke to MS yet or not, it does imply it somewhat. I have a friend who ran into this personally though and he has spoken to MS many times, and they absolutely refuse to activate his copy of Windows. Exact same thing, the motherboard died and had to be replaced, but MS tells him that he'll have to buy a new copy of Windows. Not surprisingly, after it became obvious MS had no intention of ever activating his legal copy of Windows, he went and found a pirated copy online instead of paying MS twice for the same software.

Frankly I don't think the whole refusal to activate thing is entirely motivated by piracy, I think there's a fair bit of greed involved because MS knows many people won't have any other choice but to pay them again.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

"it is very easy to pick on the process as being difficult in comparison to past releases of Windows because they did not have quite the robust anti-pirating security in place"

In two words: Utter - Bullshit

What the heck is that "robust anti-pirating security"? Just the very day Vista came to common public did appear the news of a pirated version coming public too. The fact is that all this "activation stuff" won't stop you not even for a moment to find a cracked version, so the only one f*ed with the activation is, surprise, legitime users of the software.

Of course, it there were no "pirates" then wouldn't exist the need to add "antipiracy" gadgets.

Of course too, there were no people trying to make bussiness upon non protegible things like IP, there weren't no "pirates" either.

All in all, while I claim "bullshit" to those Microsoft products (and relatives) I claim "even bigger bullshit" to those bitten by them. There *are* alternatives. If Microsoft (or the RIAA for that matter) became the almighty crushing corporation it is nowadays it is because it built up upon a whole society stupidity and lazyness so no wonder they are f*ed up now.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[PitaBred]

If no one pirated it, no one would be using Windows now because they wouldn't have the mind share. They looked the other way when piracy made them popular, now they want to profit. I'd pay for Windows if they didn't make it a pain in the ass to run it.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[magicchex]

As soon as they get on the phone, ask to speak to a native English speaker. You have to wait a little longer, but this has never been a problem for me.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Nanpa]

Well, the problem is that I hear that not all Nigerian's have several million dollars in their bank account ready to share with you, and most are actually quite poor

Re:Easy compared to what?

[jhantin]

So split the difference. If the activation rep sounds cute, flirt on the phone. Take some of the tedium out of reinstalling yet another hosed box.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[schotty]

Look, I hate being put out of my way just as much as the next guy, but I cant fault MS on this one. They have had their OS stolen rampantly for years now, and I cannot fault them for wanting proof of payment or legality of the installation. Considering that the fella does have an odd situation (really, how many peeps out there really do swap their mobos out besides us nerds on /. ?).

What would be an unreasonable thing is being put on hold an hour to be told to piss off and not get a new validated key.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[leenks]

Linux isn't worth stealing either - that's why they give it away free! ;-)

Re:Easy compared to what?

[leenks]

They have stolen parts of their software rampantly for years now. Can you blame those wanting to steal theirs?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[iamcf13]

Seriously, I know Slashdotters are anti-social and hate talking to people,

They also hate anything where somebody ultimately gets 'gets paid'.

Which is strange when you consider known 'adblogger' Roland Piquepaille always seems to get his stories on Slashdot.

I tried a few times without success in the past--once to get the word out about a pice of software I wrote. Becuase I was trying to sell it (earn my keep), I was shouted down here--yet nobody bats an eye to the endless parade of stories from established computer hardware and software manufacturers.

So why the double standard?

Is Roland exempt from any sort of editorial guidelines?

So now I just ignore all the stuff Roland links to and almost all news stories here 'backed' by any for-profit enterprises as 'product placement'. Some of these 'placements' are genuine news that can have a long lasting effect on people -- I read these and ignore the others.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[cavenba]

I may I be so bold as to question the legality of this solution?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[iminplaya]

Oh stop! Microsoft WANTS their software to be pirated. If they didn't, every copy would come with a hardware dongle, the way the Mac OS does. End of story.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[iminplaya]

Maybe Microsoft could spent more time properly engineering their software in the first place to make it worth buying, and less time trying to keep legitimate owners from "stealing" it?

But the real majority of their time is spent making the icons look pretty. And their documentation ain't too shabby either.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Stephen Samuel]

Well, easy isn't that absolute of a word... Many people are just going to see that Vista is refusing to allow the install and give up on the idea....

And for some people, the idea of having to beg a stranger for the ability to use something that they paid $100 or more (sometimes much more) for is rather hard to swallow. Having to prove that you're not a thief and a crook when you've got a perfectly legitimate and paid-for copy is just galling.

Then, of course, is the problem of realizing that calling Microsoft, when they have already refused to let you install your software is a bit too far of a stretch for many people. You have no idea as to how many people will just give up and walk away when they get told to piss off in an official manner. Yes, it may piss you off to see friends do something like that, but probably (at least) 15-20% of them will have that reaction.

It's not easy to break habits that have been drilled into you for your whole life (I.e. "do as you're told").

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Blakey Rat]

They have the same accessibility options as every other corporation on Earth. Phone and TTY. If you don't want to use them, fine, don't use them... but then don't bitch when you can't get activated. But remember the same applies to your power company, your cable company, your phone company, and every other company in the US where the accessibility options are Phone and TTY.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[suckmysav]

I said "developing world", not Nigeria, which by no metric I am familiar with could be described as developing.

For the benefit of idiots such as Nanpa here, the developing world is primarily India and China, along with many other SE Asian countries.

These people can choose one of three paths when purchasing their computers.

1) Get a free OS such as Linux

2) Pay the equivalent of several months wages to Microsoft for the right to lease a copy of Windows

or

3) Get a "free" OS by pirating Windows.

Unsurprisingly, most of them choose box #3. Microsoft knows this, therefore they have taken great care not to make #3 an unviable option in the short term at least, because they are afraid that were they to do so, they would force most of the people in these countries to choose box #1.

And that is the worst possible outcome they can imagine.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[eck011219]

Simmer down, and knock off the dumb asteroid stuff.

I have a moderate to severe stutter that worsens on the phone and worsens still when I have to rattle off my phone number (or a thirty-digit serial number). I don't know why numbers are so much harder for me to speak, but I'm sure Blakey Rat has an opinion about that, too.

Not worth owning an alternative form of communication like TTY, but it's BS that I need to talk to as many people as I do to activate my software that I can prove in writing that I own. It should be enough that I can provide written proof of who I am -- the fact that I need to talk to Comcast, Sprint, Quark, Adobe, Microsoft as often as I do signals a failing in the system, not in my ability to carry on a fluent phone conversation. Those of us who need to reinstall our licensed software shouldn't have to jump through MORE hoops (particularly given the likelihood that we're reinstalling the software due to some failing in it). Take, for example, any call to an online service provider. The first thing you have to do is punch in your home phone number to prove you're an account holder. Then you wait, and once you get someone, what's the first thing you do? Recite the same damn number all over again.

Why can't that come up on screen in front of them before they start talking to me? I don't know how these systems are built, but I refuse to believe that it's impossible. Perhaps impractical, but not impossible. Nor is some basic training so I don't get laughed at and teased (something that happens less now than it used to but still more than you'd think). But now I know I'm asking too much.

I'm not as thin-skinned as I probably sound here, and have the ability to tell each damn customer service rep I talk to to "stop snickering, I have a stutter." Moreover, I can have a sense of humor about it all when it's reasonable. Really.

All I'm saying is that it's BS answers like this one from Blakey Rat that chap my ass. The number of people who have paid stacks of money for their systems and their software but have either speech-related or hearing-related or language-related issues is significant. Do their difficulties (dare I say problems?) make their licenses invalid? And as a Quark user, I'm acutely and regrettably used to having to call to reinstall and reactivate my software. I'm not unwilling to do it as I have to do it all the time, but I have not one but two levels of aggravation on this one. I shouldn't even have the first, non-speech-related one. It's dumb and far too easy to circumvent to make it worth subjecting paid users to.

I'm not asking for special treatment -- in fact, I'm asking for minimally equivalent treatment. And I'm not half the accessibility Nazi that most of my programmer friends are (though maybe they're talking the talk in front of me because they think I care more than I do -- I don't know ;) ). But if things worked logically and technologically as they should FOR EVERYONE, there would be less distinction between those of us with speech or hearing or language or social impediments and those without. True efficiency serves everyone, false efficiency serves only the system owners (i.e., the people who already have our money).

Re:Easy compared to what?

[EqualOrLesserValue]

Personally I have less of a moral problem "stealing" things that are locked down, than things that are opened up.

A friend of mine spoke of the Paris Metro (subway system). According to him the city of Paris has made it so difficult to "get a free ride" that it becomes a badge of honor to achieve entry without paying.

When my friend arrived here in Montreal and saw how it was child's play to get aboard our Metro system he simply ponied up the money and got on.

Paris is paranoid and wastes a lot of money in prevention. Social pressure stops Montreals from getting free rides.

If Vista sold for $19.99 a copy I wonder if the "1 in 5" figure for pirated copies would be more like 1 in 500.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[cibyr]

Until you need to replace some hardware, which is usually my reason for reinstalling anyway...

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Been there, done that.

When I moved my wife from a Windows NT boot "up" to a Windows 98 Win4lin linux boot we had the CD and had the book but we couldn't find the Dreamweaver activation. Even though she swears she electronically registered it under the same address and email of that moment, there "was nothing they could do."

What I could do was a quick cruise of usenet. Problem solved.

Of course, by now she's discovered that Bluefish is pleasantly adequate. Much the same could perhaps be said for Windows in general and .... ;)

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Nanpa]

Chill out. Geez. It's a bad attempt at a joke, not a declaration of war.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Baricom]

Your 10-key skills must be amazing.

How long does it take to dial a 50-digit installation key (twice!), then read it off again to the operator? In fact, the last time I activated, the IVR would not allow me to skip ahead - I had to dial five digits, then listen to the cheerful encouragement before dialing the next set.

Product activation was the primary reason I swore never to give Microsoft money again. Apple doesn't even require a serial number for OS X.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[HeroreV]

I'm gay you insensitive clod!

And I guess there might be a few straight females too.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[suckmysav]

I'm sorry, I didn't recognise it as a joke.

It is often difficult to convey such a subtle and subjective as humour in a text medium such as this.

I usually find that typing something funny often helps in these cases.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Herby Sagues]

Easy compared to installing an operating system (ANY operating system). Easy compared to sending the machine for repair. Easy compared to fixing the machine or replacing the motherboard. Easy compared to installing Windows 95 (yes, installign XP is WAY easier than installing 95, even including the phone call). NOT easy compared to starting a discussion claiming that Microsoft has not given you a solution when you didn't even pick up the phone. You just waited for the tooth fairy to come and fix the problem for you.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[syousef]

Either you can use a phone, or you can use TTY. You can come up with crazy situations all day long, but it all comes down to that.

So basically your argument is "I don't care about your disability. Just fucking do it like everyone else"....and you're calling him "anti-social and hate talking". Take a look at what you just wrote.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I wonder if it *is* really illegal to use an activation crack to activate a legally purchased copy of software...

Re:Easy compared to what?

[skiflyer]

Actually, it's unbelievably complicated. Why do I need to call anyone when installing software? Needless complications imposed by the manufacturer is why.

Absolutely, this is slashdot and the Linux crowd... Easy should mean going to IRC channels, posting in mailing lists and online forums.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[skiflyer]

Then, of course, is the problem of realizing that calling Microsoft, when they have already refused to let you install your software is a bit too far of a stretch for many people. You have no idea as to how many people will just give up and walk away when they get told to piss off in an official manner.

I respectfully disagree. While I think the practice described in this summary is completely and total BS I think you're way off base on your analysis of human behavior. I'd say it is in fact exactly the opposite. Once people have paid you the $100 they'll jump through remarkable hoops to use it.... even if it costs $500 in their time to make it work. Now, when it comes time to buy the next product or upgrade, that's when they'll walk away if the hassle wasn't worth the reward.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[rohan972]

Or perhaps copying software is not fundamentally dishonest, and their basing their business model on a level of social manipulation that has not been accomplished?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

may I be so bold as to kick your face?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[RockDoctor]

Actually, it's unbelievably complicated. Why do I need to call anyone when installing software? Needless complications imposed by the manufacturer is why.

Why should you need to call someone when installing software? Well, you need to tell the the serial number of the dongle you've received along with your install pack, the contract number and maintenance agreement numbers, they need to check thet your copies fees have been paid for the month, then using the public key for your dongle, contract and maintenance agreement, they can generate the encrypted unlocking key so that your installation of the software will work for the next number of occasions you've paid for [20 software restarts | 20 separate days running | 30 calendar days | whatever other term you've negotiated]. You then enter that key (it's only 256 pairs of hexadecimal digits, so you can easily get it over the phone, if you don't have email, or can't be bothered installing learning how to update your keys by email), and voila - your software will work. Until the money in the meter runs out.
We are, of course, talking about software of moderate value. The dongles alone cost about the same as a copy of Windows.

What is the purpose of software? Why, it's to make money for the businesses who sell it. If you've got some other purpose to writing software, that's fine by me, but you're going to need something else to pay the rent with.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[ray-auch]

Microsoft learned this from Unix and other large systems - years ago (back in DOS days) I can remember having to call vendor for keys to (re)install software on Unix boxes.

I can't remember anyone questioning "why" - that was simply the requirements for that software (probably still is today).

In fact it was arguably worse than MS activation - _every_ install required phone call as online activiation didn't exist. These days online activation almost certainly handles the vast majority of the cases on Windows with phone calls only required for the exceptions.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[schotty]

I appreciate your comment, but unfortunately the link is stale. I think that taking BSD code is fine, since that is what the license allows for (assuming that is what is being referred to since I cant view the article). BUt until I can locate the article I cant really comment much further.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Dark_MadMax666]

I suggest get a volume license version of XP and/or MSDN subscr. VLK versions do not require activation and can use the same key, MSDN has all kinds of sfotware in all kinds of edition .Legally you are fine either one as long as you have real license (with VLK you can use your volume key and version even if you license came with OEM machine).

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. you did not legally-purchase anything, you exchanged money for the "license" to "use" some software, as allowed by the contract, until the issuer of the contract changes the terms of the agreement, under specific circumstances.

2. NO one has any right to interfere with corporate entities forming of law to suit them: we *gave* corporate entities the status of person-hood, and they are fundamentally different from "real"-persons, work around the clock, have lobbyists, etc, and therefore their subsumation of all rights/influence for their own selves is inevitable.

2b. they, corporate-entities, are *obliged* to shed anything that impedes quarterly-bottom-line, by *our*+their law, so any whingeing about thinks like
"record-profits+new-layoffs" or
"non-service provided to persons"
is either nonsense or red-herring: they are "obliged" to respect the "rights" of "human-persons" only so far as current practice requires, and current practice, which changes over time to less and less be deformed by non-corporate "persons", has no obligation to anyone other than who makes it. . .

3. us disabled persons are economically-costly, and just as no corporation can be required to serve non-profitable areas/regions, no corporation, in the end, ought to be required to serve us.

In the end, the controlled, conformant, and obedient population, is more useful, because it is most-efficiently converted to the obliged profit.

*Basic* economics shows that inclusive systems are less efficient than exclusive systems, and the "excluded" always whine, so what's the problem, from their perspective?

It's inevitable, it's just economics, and it's the world we wanted and made, so why don't we just accept and be happy?

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Gr8Apes]

The DMCA says it's illegal. Now you can go on about whether the DMCA should be legal...

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Gr8Apes]

Except for a very small group of very specific software, no one's ever really shown that software measures such as activation significantly lower piracy. It does make a whole lot of legitimate users less happy, and complicates the entire scenario a lot more than it needs to be I used to work for a company that made very expensive software. There were no activation keys of any sort, and still aren't. They make lots of money, with no known cases of piracy.

As for the argument that who's going to pay for support, etc. Well, if you have a "pirated" copy and are stupid enough to call support in the first place, perhaps that support call should charge you the price of the software before helping you. (Note that this still doesn't give you a license, hence the next time, another nice charge - a built in revenue maker for the manufacturer, and an incentive to buy a legit copy)

Otherwise, since MS basically "gives away" a copy of the OS with every new PC sold in order to drive other revenue such as Office and their other applications, what's the point in charging for the OS itself at all? I know that's a heretical thought, but the true value of the OS to MS is in providing their own controlled platform that they can leverage for the rest of their application suite.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Gr8Apes]

Microsoft learned this from Unix and other large systems - years ago (back in DOS days) I can remember having to call vendor for keys to (re)install software on Unix boxes.

I can't remember anyone questioning "why" - that was simply the requirements for that software (probably still is today). I can remember some of those too - like dongles for Cadkey and Autocad. I remember everyone asking why, as it interfered with the computer's ability to print, which was one of the key functions under those applications. The entire serial number thing I remember starting in the UNIX world too, and was arguably the finest innovation in Win95 and NT. (We all remember 1111-111-1111-1111 right?:) I remember having something like 350 serial numbers in a drawer, and all machines running under that one number.

In fact it was arguably worse than MS activation - _every_ install required phone call as online activiation didn't exist. These days online activation almost certainly handles the vast majority of the cases on Windows with phone calls only required for the exceptions. I don't recall having to call more than once, as we didn't install it more than once on a machine. There was also the case that you couldn't install some software without direct help from the original developers - it's always fun being on the cutting edge. This was engineering modeling and analysis software on SGI Irix machines. We actually had to have a guy come out to assist with the install, as their "installer" (very loosely and generously labeled as such) was, shall we say, a little flaky and "forgot" to copy random files into their appropriate locations?

And then there's the wonderful BEA activation key process for their old Weblogic servers. That one deserves special mention for being the one activation scenario that MS could "innovate" to to improve their activation process. You install the software, generate a key request on the machine with the account it's to run as and send it off. Half the time, you got a bad key back. You had to do this anytime you changed anything with their servers, including point upgrades and patches. Later, they added the license server and things got better.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[babbling]

I think it is an interrogation. It's none of their business why I am reinstalling a legally purchased piece of software.

Besides, the whole thing is a pointless exercise because if I would want to install Windows illegally I would just get a crack.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[babbling]

I fully support Microsoft (in fact, I wish they would...) preventing people from illegally running Windows. Activation doesn't do that, though. Activation just bugs the people who already paid for Windows. I don't particularly care because I want Microsoft to bug their customers as much as possible, but I am just expressing my opinion on activation in general.

Microsoft could detect machines running copied versions of Windows and deny those machines updates, or send them updates that shut down the operating system. They're stupid for instead bugging the legitimate customers who call them, though.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

And why do I have to waste hours of my day talking to "John" (Apu and company) every time I need to do a repair install on a Dell or HP machine that the customer has no media for. Reinstall from an OEM cd (same version, Home, Pro, whatever) using the keycode on the side of the case, and 9 out of 10 times, I have to call and go through the "How many PCs will I be helping you today install this software on" dance. I tell them I have installed it on one, but they need to ask Michael Dell how many total PC's the copy is installed on. This usually leads to "John" starting to recite the MS EULA. This just gets me pissed off, I hang up and go work with some of my Linux clients. Yeah, nice system Microsoft!

Re:Easy compared to what?

[doctor proteus]

Thats right frdmfght. A worm like MS Blaster would have completely wiped out a large proportion of our navigation and meteorological ability, so we always kept up to date whilst in a Marina, or even by asking a nice local if we could use there internet connection a download the hotfixes. The entire activation/WGA process just takes too long in an environment where we log accurately who is online by the second, and how much is transmitted.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[BobPaul]

I've never been asked why that I recall, only if it's installed anywhere else.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[FreakWent]

Doesn't this logic imply that roadside breath testing is inconveniencing mostly sober people since the real criminals just take the back roads, or use weed or speed instead of booze?

Inconveniencing the innocent is quite accepted in many many circumstances, not least of which is security of property, which equates to protection of financial assets.

MS is protecting their financial assets, and my envelope reckoning brings them out to about 15 to 30 bn US in lost income for windows alone on an annual income of about 70 bn (82% profit!). Starting from 600 bn computers on the net and MS's claim of 150 bn activations.

Now I'm no stocks/financial analyst by any means, but it seems to me that they have a duty to attempt to claim this 'missing' revenue; they owe it to the shareholders.

I don't see how reverting to windows9x style anti-piracy will help them do this.

Re:Easy compared to what?

[Anonymous Coward]

because I am forced to jump through hoops that I can't jump through because of a physical disability? To me, this is as bad as a failure to install a wheelchair ramp.

Evidently you'd prefer other people to jump through hoops for you.

Re:Solution can be found here:

[Anonymous Coward]

As much as I like open-source operating systems, it's not a solution if you have windows applications that you want to run. When (if?) WINE or ReactOS ever get to the point where they can run all the major applications then there will be no reason to use Windows anymore but not before.

Re:Solution can be found here:

[Skewray]

My Windows computer does not come with Snake. Nor Robot. How lame!

Try this...

[geekmansworld]

Recently our office built a bunch of new computers from new parts and purchased OEM copies of Windows from the hardware vendor for them. Several of the motherboards turned out to be faulty, so we had to replace them. In some cases, validation worked without any problems despite the hardware change.

For the computers which, inexplicably, failed validation after replacement, a simple call to Microsoft explaining the situation was all that was required to reactivate the OS.

I can't see why they'd be giving you such a hard time.

Repair shops have this problem

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to work for a name-brand computer store.

When someone brought in a warranty repair and the original motherboard wasn't available we put in one "at least as good" as the original from our store inventory.

We installed a fresh copy of Windows with a new key.

I have no idea how they handled the billing but Microsoft was cool with it.

Re:Solution can be found here:

[P3NIS_CLEAVER]

I had exactly the same problem with my emachine and instead of going through all the headaches I had a coworker burn me a copy of SUSE.

Cheap PSUs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I run a PC repair shop in the UK and I get 1-2 eMachines PCs a week with either a dead PSU or a dead mobo & PSU (the PSU dies and takes the mobo with it). Fortunately the rest of the unit (RAM, CPU and drives) are usually still functional.

fuck that noise

[Anonymous Coward]

Juarez can provide what you seek.

Me too

[Anonymous Coward]

Replaced Mobo, CPU and RAM on an emachines box for a relative, then XP refused to re-activate. I file this under "NOT MY PROBLEM". People need to stop paying the extortion gangs, we should all invoice emachines/Microsoft for the time we wasted and reimbursement of the original OEM XP.

More recently I outright refuse to deal with MS or their products.

You are screwed..

[daniel422]

I just went through this fiasco while repairing a mobo failure on an HP Media Center PC. As with most OEM PCs these days it came pre-installed with everything and featured only a recovery disk (disc image) for system restore. Changing, upgrading, or altering many of the components onboard (particularly the motherboard) will result in this disk becoming useless. If you read Microsoft's ifo regarding OEM distributions -- they are totally OK with this. THe OEM is only required to provide a recovery disk that lives and dies with the computer (which is practically defined as the motherboard). The OEM install and recovery disks are keyed to some identifier in the motherboard, which requires some hacking to use. I wound up purchasing a new OEM version of Media Center (since they don't make a regular version) from NewEgg and reinstalling everything.
I was pretty pissed. I felt like I had paid for this OS in the first place, I should have the right to reinstall it as necessary -- from hardware changes/failures/upgrades/whatever. It turns out you don't with most OEMs. A recovery disk is all they are required to provide.
Here's the link to the forum over at thegreenbutton.com (Windows Media Center site) that tells my tail of woe and what I learned.
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/160224.asp x
Basically, you're screwed without at least on OEM copy of Windows. Then you can at least hack it. If all you've got is a recovery disk than you are hosed. THe same goes for all software that is preinstalled on your drive. You got Word preinstalled? And you changed your mobo? Whoops--it's a new computer now! No software/OS for you!
I'd love to hear if someone's challenged this in court -- it seems pretty anti-consumer, although I'm sure OEMs save a ton of money and hassle with recovery disks....

Re:You are screwed..

[skammie]

Umm, did you replace your hard drive in the HP? HP (amongst others) creates a smallish (600MB~1GB) partition on your hard drive. The recovery software is looking for that partition. Swap out the drive, and those recovery disks are useless. You can buy a disk image set from them for about $14 for your machine. I recently have gone through this repairing a friend's Compaq laptop. I had to replace the drive, and order a disk image set. It took about 5 days for me to get it, but I didn't have to purchase an OEM copy with a drive for $100.

Re:You are screwed..

[owlstead]

"although I'm sure OEMs save a ton of money and hassle with recovery disks...."

Maybe the OEMs because it makes it easier on their tech. support lines. For their clients it is hell. That's why I would always check if the system comes with an original Windows disk and a driver disk, and - if possible - only uses standard components. Most of the time, I use the driver disk only once or twice; I use it to install the network card driver. The rest of the drivers and software are upgraded to their latest versions over the internet. Although a recovery disk may seem easy, it also means that any problem that has been found between the release date of the driver (many months before the actual recovery disk has been created, most of the time) will reoccur after installation. And then you can upgrade all the drivers *again*.

Recovery disks are one of the many things that make Microsoft such a PITA.

Re:You are screwed..

[daniel422]

Yup...did this -- and I still had the original recovery disks. The problem is the disks are basically an image and don't allow recovery with significant hardware changes. The recovery portion on the drive is exactly the same -- I was able to boot up and use it to re-install (recover) Windows, but it would come up with a "configuration error....code purple" when windows would actually boot (after recovery). As you can see from my experiences at thegreenbutton.com, this is not an uncommon issue.
HP told me to basically pound sand: that the machine was out of warranty, they were under no obligation to provide me with an OEM Windows install disk -- only a recovery disk. A close reading of Microsoft's OEM policies confirms this. It's their veiw that the motherboard (in particular) IS the computer. Making changes to it voids your software license. In my case I couldn't get the original board (which MIGHT have worked) but a functionally similar one. No go. HP wanted me to purchase an extended warranty on it -- which for $100 would allow me unlimited tech support questions by phone and $20 extra for each hardware fix. While this ALMOST sounded nice (it would have required a month wait for me to take advantage of the hardware claus), for the same cost I could simply buy a new version of the OS and not have to deal with their crap again. Guess which one I chose?

Re:You are screwed..

[daniel422]

That was part of my exact argument over at thegreenbutton.com. Seems like a horrible way for anybody purchasing a computer with ANY technical skills. Why not provide both? A recovery disk for that "back to factory" install and an OEM version for driver upgrades, fresh install (or slipstreaming) and the like. Hell, making almost any hardware/software changes (except for a hard drive) would require significant work after using a recovery disk that's locked into a factory image.
Lesson learned -- always get at least the OEM version of the OS. Recovery disks suck.

Re:You are screwed..

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting anonymously, lest my primarch will have my power suit. Basically, you need to download from the pirate bay the same OEM version of Windows that you are using (in my case it was MCE 2005), then install it with the key you have on your sticker, and there you go. Make sure the iso you download is the OEM version, not the retail/volume version (hint: they accept different key-spaces). As for the software that comes with the OEM, it usually sucks my balls, so no worries. You're better off without it. In case you've replaced some hardware and activation doesn't work, call my primarch's minions, and they will help you out with the activation - by phone.

If you swapped the exact same chipset, then...

[madhatter256]

If you had the board swapped with one that has the exact same chipset then Windows would not have picked up the change in motherboard. I have done this to many Emachines, Dells, and HPs. Sometimes I built them a whole new system, just same OEM license. Hell, the OEM license says that if the motherboard is defective, you don't have to buy a new license. In all those cases, the boards were defective and required a rebuild of the system. I never had to call MS to get a new activation key, not yet at least. Chances are what you have is an Intel chipset which are VERY picky if you swap the boards out without wanting to reinstall the OS. THe motherboard has to have the exact same chipset in order for XP to boot and not recognize the motherboard swap.

Re:If you swapped the exact same chipset, then...

[Anonymous Coward]

Emachines installs are bios locked, you'd need an identical mobo and their custom bios firmware.

It just completely sucks.

Re:If you swapped the exact same chipset, then...

[Merls the Sneaky]

I have had no hassles upgrading my machine after numerous hardware upgrades. In fact i bought my OEM XP and the only hardware I have the same is my FDD. In order to buy an OEM I just had to purchase "hardware" I just told MS customer support I bought my XP with my FDD. Sure XP balks at the install the first time, I ring MS and I got the long ass code every time hassle free.

Re:Solution can be found here:

[psykocrime]

Flamebait? LOL, /. mods are on crack again. The OP obviously has issues with the MS product activation policies... one solution is to switch to an OS that does not have such policies. You may disagree with the choice of any particular option I mentioned, but to say that pointing out that he has options - other than sticking with XP - is hardly "flamebait."

Gee...

[drooling-dog]

I've never had this problem with Linux. Maybe this is Microsoft's way of suggesting that it's time to take the leap...

exactly...

[vena]

From MS's MPA FAQ:

Can I change or upgrade my hardware components?

MPA can tolerate some change in hardware components by allowing a degree of difference between the current hash value and the hash value that was originally activated. Users can change hardware components without having to reactivate the product. If users make substantial changes to their hardware components, even over long periods of time, they may have to reactivate the product. In that case, users may have to contact a Microsoft customer service representative by telephone to reactivate.

all it takes is a phone call.

This key thing is annoying

[bill_kress]

It, more than anything else about MS Windows is driving me into other alternatives.

Apple offers a reasonable 5-pack "Family License" for less than the price of two installs, and they don't seem to make you jump through these hoops.

And I like Linux's pricing even better.

I'm slowly reducing the numbers of Windows PCs in my house. When each one dies of windows rot, I try to move required functionality (games, mostly) onto another PC and replace the common functionality (web browsing, music playing, writing docs, editing music, ...) onto a more appropriate platform.

I hope someone from Microsoft reads this topic--eventually if you beat them over the head with enough clues one will have to get through.

Re:This key thing is annoying

[clontzman]

Apple offers a reasonable 5-pack "Family License" for less than the price of two installs, and they don't seem to make you jump through these hoops.

In fairness, though, Apple makes money (lots of it) on the hardware you have to buy to run OS X, so if you pirate the OS, you've already given them several hundred dollars in profit. No one knows exactly how much Dell pays MS for OEM copies of Windows, but we know for sure that it's well under a hundred dollars and if you keep pirating Windows, that's all the money they can ever make off of you. Many people do this; hence, the hoops.

I know, I know... poor Microsoft. I don't like activation anymore than you do, but you can hardly blame them for wanting to keep their software usage somewhat legit.

Re:This key thing is annoying

[guruevi]

Actually, you could use the same copy (@ $129) on all 5 of your computers although it wouldn't be 'legal' if multiple users were using them. Apple doesn't do any activation at all, let's you re-use the media and unless you're installing the Server-edition, you don't even have to key in a code.

And I think it's fair and better to fork over the extra $70 for your 5 licenses than risk having a single license and someone telling on you.

Re:This key thing is annoying

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and you can also get a Tech Net subscription for about the same price as an Apple Family lic, but you will get access to every version of Vista, Office 2007, Server, etc. For atleast 5 PC s you own; starting price of about $350. Learn your stuff fanboy.

Re:This key thing is annoying

[Frumious Wombat]

Or, you could do the Apple version of PC/Linux people, and wait until people decide their old G4 is worthless, steal it from the dumpster, put some more memory into it, and install your copy of OS-X. In that case someone paid Apple the extra money, but not you, and you've put off buying a new machine for a few years to come (which deprives them of the income from a current model). In that light, the family pack to stay legit is a reasonable investment, especially as it helps fund further development of the OS. This is better than the WindowsXP familiy pack, at $209* number_of_old_copies_you_own, or $300*number_of_pcs.

Yes, Apple can be expensive, and I'm sure that if they were as big as Microsoft, they'd be far worse to deal with, because Steve J. is so much more creative than Steve B. However, they aren't, so they can afford to be a bit customer friendly.

Easy. Talk to microsoft.

[Jarnis]

This is easy to fix. Forget emachines, tell them to jump off a cliff.

Call Microsoft product activation center.

Tell them the following thing:
"I need to reactivate my copy of Windows, since I had to replace my motherboard due to a defect."

They will activate it. If neccessary, they will give you a new product key. You may have to provide your current key (off your emachines system). Complain until they do.

(confirmed to work at least in Finland. Dunno if in US they have different procedures or rules, but here by law they cannot refuse)

Re:Easy. Talk to microsoft.

[Malkin]

I'm with the previous poster about this. Don't freak out until you call Microsoft and explain your problem. You are not trying to do anything dishonest, so there's no reason to hide anything. Believe it or not, they're usually pretty helpful in getting licensing issues sorted out, and in my experience, they've been very fair about it. I've never had them deny any of my requests, regardless of what upgrades and/or transfers I was doing.

In the unlikely event that they give you a hard time about it (which I have never seen happen), then pitch a fit and demand that they escalate the issue. If they insist on having this kind of protection system, they have to suffer the consequences of when it goes wrong, including unhappy customers. So, dish some consequences, man.

Of COURSE you doesn't have a problem with piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all about FREEDOM right? You shouldn't have to pay for anything because information WANTS to be free.

Re:Solution can be found here:

[MarkGriz]

Anyone else find it ironic that the person giving the smartass "change your OS" answer,
totally misses the sarcasm of the "Perhaps there's a reason why long posts full of links are considered lame..." response?

E-Machines PS kill mobos

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen way too many E-Machines with dead mobos but apparently-working power supplies. Put in another mobo and within a month it will die.

Don't be fooled. When an E-Machines mobo dies the power supply can't be trusted.

That's all.

[Renraku]

All you have to do man, is call Microsoft and ask their permission to reinstall the software that you fucking paid them for. They'll check your hardware too, to make sure they have a deal with the manufacturer. If they don't, well, you get to pay for your software again.

I would have bought a copy of Windows XP by now, but I would rather pirate it than ask their permission every time I reinstall it or change my BIOS settings. I don't care how it works.

Especially for something as important as the OS.

I had to do that, but wasn't a big deal.

[amigabill]

I replaced the motherboard in my sister's computer, and had to call MS for reactivation. They asked what was up, I said I was replacing a broken motherboard, they said OK and reactivated the thing. There was nothing OEM about this, it was a purely home-built PC with a full 98SE license and XP Home upgrade. Whether I should have had to call and ask for permission is another thing, and I wasn't happy that I had to, but it was less hassle than I'd expected.

(My family doesn't seem to have any interest in talking to computer company support since they have a computer guy only 300 miles away, so I might as well give them my leftovers if they won't have anyone else service the things)

In the shop I used to work at...

[Anonymous Coward]

We'd take one look at the PC, one look at the motherboard replacement, see that they were identical, see that the OS wasn't installing with the appropriate key which was on the side of the PC...

Then I'd install an activation crack and be done with it.

I'm not going to spend 2 hours on hold for Microsoft to BS me about how I, as a repair technician, have to tell a customer that they, microsoft, lied and misled them.

I COULD just hand the PC to the customer and tell them they need to activate it with Microsoft, which is their responsability which technically it is. But they will come right back, like a scared animal, and start complaining about how they got assrammed without lube by MS. Or worse, they'll take their anger out on me.

Either way, I get fucked, MS gets money.

Is it a violation of the TOS? Well, here's a question; If a company sells a software package with an EULA, and that EULA states they have the right to install it on any PC or have repairs done to it by a authorized repair center with OEM hardware, and then they don't fallow through on that then technically, they are in violation of their own EULA. If Microsoft is in violation of their own software contract for failure to ensure the software can be installed, then this customer is owed some form of remedy. I realize that and work a bypass.

Am I violating the TOS? You better believe I am, but I'm also covering Microsofts scrawny ass. I'm doing everyone a favor.

They can call me up later when they do a restoration or reinstall themselves and run into the same problem, then they can connect up with microsoft and a Microsoft representantive can get yelled at and more importantly, Microsoft can look bad. That way the ass-chewing goes to the proper people with the power to do somethnig about it.

I'v got a bottom line to uphold and it's hard enough in the world of disposable PC's to make a living doing repairs; you've got to be at the top of your game. I'm not going to start telling customers "hey, the $200 work on a $600 PC is done, I attempted an OS reinstall and it turns out Microsoft has decided that you need to repurchase the OS for another $200". That's rediculous.

For the record, you'd better believe I'v refused to do installs of pirated copies of windows. I'v get people coming upto me all the time and asking if I can use this CD-key here, on this piece of paper, to do it then hand the computer back to them. That always turns into a mess; I require either the holographic sticker or booklet with CD-key. It's when they have that and it still doesn't work I begin having problems.

Re:In the shop I used to work at...

[Creepy Crawler]

---We'd take one look at the PC, one look at the motherboard replacement, see that they were identical, see that the OS wasn't installing with the appropriate key which was on the side of the PC...

---Then I'd install an activation crack and be done with it.

WTF are you doing that for? Make the customer do that.

---I'm not going to spend 2 hours on hold for Microsoft to BS me about how I, as a repair technician, have to tell a customer that they, microsoft, lied and misled them.

Why not? Let the customer know it will be 200$ for the software, since the MS-OS is not authorized for this motherboard, which the EULA demands.

---I COULD just hand the PC to the customer and tell them they need to activate it with Microsoft, which is their responsability which technically it is. But they will come right back, like a scared animal, and start complaining about how they got assrammed without lube by MS. Or worse, they'll take their anger out on me. Either way, I get fucked, MS gets money.

No, you're the problem. Would this practice be supported by say.. the medical profession? You'd be disbarred and sued for illegal conduct under profession.

---Is it a violation of the TOS? Well, here's a question; If a company sells a software package with an EULA, and that EULA states they have the right to install it on any PC or have repairs done to it by a authorized repair center with OEM hardware, and then they don't fallow through on that then technically, they are in violation of their own EULA. If Microsoft is in violation of their own software contract for failure to ensure the software can be installed, then this customer is owed some form of remedy. I realize that and work a bypass. Am I violating the TOS? You better believe I am, but I'm also covering Microsofts scrawny ass. I'm doing everyone a favor.

Do as required by your contract with the customer and make software crap no more difficult for them than it would be.

---They can call me up later when they do a restoration or reinstall themselves and run into the same problem, then they can connect up with microsoft and a Microsoft representantive can get yelled at and more importantly, Microsoft can look bad. That way the ass-chewing goes to the proper people with the power to do somethnig about it.

Wait till the customer does that anti-pirater program and finds out that YOU JIPPED THEM. I install that program on every machine I maintain, so customers know I didnt screw them. Of course, when they want me to pirate MSOffice, I steer them towards the price of MSOffice and Open Office. Guess what the users choose.

---I'v got a bottom line to uphold and it's hard enough in the world of disposable PC's to make a living doing repairs; you've got to be at the top of your game. I'm not going to start telling customers "hey, the $200 work on a $600 PC is done, I attempted an OS reinstall and it turns out Microsoft has decided that you need to repurchase the OS for another $200". That's rediculous.

Thats the cost of the "game" MS wants. And if you want more money, get some maintenance contracts and start making home theater systems for the local richies. Also, people would like those car-puters too, if it was installed pretty. And to encourage/discourage Windows usage, provide prices of Linux+Hardware vs. Windows+Hardware. Time can be computed within hardware (as I do, Im proficient with Win/Lin).

---For the record, you'd better believe I'v refused to do installs of pirated copies of windows. I'v get people coming upto me all the time and asking if I can use this CD-key here, on this piece of paper, to do it then hand the computer back to them. That always turns into a mess; I require either the holographic sticker or booklet with CD-key. It's when they have that and it still doesn't work I begin having problems.

Working in the computer industry requires fairness and consistency. To not do that will eventually drive your customers to me (which isnt that bad of a thing, mind you). I used to work f

Warranty of Merchantibility

[LouisJBouchard]

I have to wonder what would happen if someone took this to small claims court claiming Warranty of Merchantiblity(sp?). This is where the product is suppose to do as it is intended to do (for example, if your toaster does not make toast and the manufacturer told you to use it as a door stop, you are still entitled to you money back because the toaster did not work as a toast should work).

I know every state has laws such as this and it would be interesting to see the EULA get around them as these laws normally trump what the manufacturer states. Since small claims court is simple (and for the amount of any copy of Windows, you are well within the courts scope), maybe a test case will prove once and for all if MS can or cannot do stuff like this.

Re:Warranty of Merchantibility

[westlake]

I have to wonder what would happen if someone took this to small claims court claiming Warranty of Merchantiblity(sp?).

____

Consumer Law: Warranty FAQ

Q: I feel the product I purchased is wearing out prematurely. Isn't this covered under my warranty?

A: Implied warranties are promises about the condition of products at the time they're sold, but they don't assure that a product will last for any specific length of time. (The normal durability of a product is, of course, one aspect of a product's merchantability or its fitness for a particular purpose.)

Nor does the law say that everything that can possibly go wrong with a product falls within the scope of implied warranties. For example, implied warranties don't cover problems such as those caused by:

* Abuse
* Misuse
* Ordinary wear
* Failure to follow directions
* Improper maintenance

___

I'd say a judge would tell you Microsoft isn't obliged to extend or replace an OEM license when the hardware it was bound to dies of natural causes.

Crack it and give 'em the finger.

[topical_surfactant]

Crack it. Why should you have to beg daddy Bill to run your copy of the operating system every time you make a hardware change? Tell Microshit to take their lousy "product activation" and shove it up their ass sideways.

Or install Linux, which amounts to the same message.

Didn't the author state...

[mikesd81]

He called MS already?

Though this was strictly a repair, not an upgrade, neither MS or e-Machines will provide for activation of the system

As someone stated before, if it isn't OEM it is against the EULA.

Just tell them the truth

[hilltx]

I had to call and get a copy of windows blah.3.something validated so I could continue, the rep on the phone was like 'well we show that the os was installed on ' and asked me 'why art thou not installing it on the previously mentioned licensed machine'... to which my reply was, 'I am putting this copy of windows on my work laptop, the other machine has a copy of linux running on it', at which point he became very quite and issued my key promptly and even hung up without asking me 'does this help', 'are you statisfied','do you even care'... no Bill, I don't... if I need a Vista I'll climb a damned mountain... its cheaper and better for my health...

It's like I said

[tkrotchko]

For all intents and purposes, there is no pirating of Windows XP. Yeah, sure, there is a handful of people who build their own and of those, a handful pirate Windows XP.

But if you have a Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, eMachines, regardless of what MS says about activation, that machine is licensed forever. It has to be, since none of those machines offers machines to the U.S. public without Windows. And yes, I'm aware of the Dell "N" series. I don't think it makes any difference.

That's the lie of the statement that 25% of all Windows installs are illegal. How can that be when almost every computer already comes with the license.

Re:It's like I said

[StikyPad]

How can that be when almost every computer already comes with the license.

Because not everyone buys a prefab system? I've bought four in my lifetime, and two of them were Commodores. The very first PC I bought, in 1997 when I finally decided my Amiga wouldn't cut it anymore after 8 years, I didn't know any better and I got a Compaq. Ever since then I've assembled my own -- at least 8 -- until this year when I bought my GF an HP laptop (so she'd stay the hell off of my computer).

Of course I've always bought a copy of Windows for each and every PC I've built. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

There are plenty of machines sold without Windows preinstalled on them, from offbrand systems, to DIY setups, to barebones systems. I'm not sure what portion of the market that covers, but it's substantial enough to keep many companies in business, and there's really no way to know what portion of those have authorized copies of XP installed. I've never seen any poll data, but I'm sure any poll is likely to be skewed. At any rate, I wouldn't dismiss the 25% number out of hand.

Re:It's like I said

[ssand]

There are also plenty of windows 98, ME, and 2000 computers with legitimate licenses for those versions of windows, but are running pirated copies of XP instead.

Re:It's like I said

[Mia'cova]

I haven't seen any numbers on windows but 25% sounds plausible. Perhaps that's going down now. But regardless, there are a hell of a lot of small computer stores selling machines without windows and get windows installed by the kid down the street. If you don't just consider the US, you might rethink things too.

For Office, I've heard ballpark figures of around 50% that were substantiated pretty well, rather than just pulled out of thin air.

Re:It's like I said

[Slashamatic]

That's the lie of the statement that 25% of all Windows installs are illegal. How can that be when almost every computer already comes with the license.

At one stage this was probably due to OS upgrades. People could go from, for example, Win95 to Win98. It won't be true now because the hop to XP required to much of a hardware upgrade. If you bought that new computer then you may as well get a license to go with it.

Bullshit

[Cervantes]

I've done this exact same process (not on an eMachine though, I won't touch those pieces of crap), and had no serious problems. The worst I've ever had is that the MS internet activation wouldn't work, and I had to call up the 800 number. As long as you have the Product Key sticker (which should be firmly attached to your shiny OEM boxen) you won't have any trouble.

Unless you're a total ass, that is. I've seen (yes, actually watched) people calling up MS Support, and as soon as they get through they launch into a 10 minute diatribe on how this is so horrible, they hate it, they want their key NOWNOWNOW or they're wiping that piece of shit and putting Linux on it. Then the MS rep usually tells them to go fuck themselves.

Hell, I've even put non-oem components in it, MS doesn't seem to care, although the mobo is probably the kicker as it'll have OEM bios and such, but I've still replaced those, called up and told them I replaced it because the manufacturer doesn't carry this replacement anymore, and they gave it to me anyways.

So, I call FUD on this crap. Class action my ass.

They're still flexible

[ivan256]

Even then, they'll let you transfer the license at least once to a different product.

I've even had a Compaq Athlon laptop die and replaced it with a whitebox PC that ran a Core 2 Duo, and they gave me an activation key for the OEM copy of XP over the phone. They didn't even give me a hard time about it, and I didn't even have to make up some lame story. I told them exactly what I was doing, and why I was doing it. They asked me if the copy of Windows was only installed on a single working machine, I said yes, and they gave me a number to type in.

I suspect that there is more to this guy's story than he lets on.

Re:They're still flexible

[morgan_greywolf]

Was it before or after the OEM license changes? In particular, see this posting from a Microsoft employee regarding the recent changes.

Re:They're still flexible

[ivan256]

It was December 23rd 2006.

Simple Reason

[gillbates]

Why should a user have to purchase another copy of XP after repairing a computer?

Because consumers would rather have it this way, that's why. Or, because Microsoft/E-machines tell you to.

Microsoft has a history of committing felonies and suing their customers. What led you to believe that they weren't going to shaft you.

My question to you is this: Knowing how MS treats their customers, why did you expect that they would treat you of all people, fairly?

IIIS

[sottitron]

I think we need an Insurance Institute for Internet Safety which can deem a computer 'totaled' in the event of a motherboard loss so that you can get an insurance payout - probably around $7 - and a salvage title for the machine.

I know

[Overzeetop]

You'd probably win. And you would spend 12 to 24 hours (or more) of your own time - partof which will be away from work - and you would likely receive a judgement for the price of the software. You would then get to try and collect from microsoft, who just might pay the judgement after 8-12 weeks, allowing you to go buy a copy of their software (on which you would pay tax out of your own pocket) which you owned.

This presumes that the MS clerk on the other end doesn't just throw the judgement in the trash or get a bug up his ass and appeal just to piss you off. BTW - who do you serve with papers in this case?

It's cheaper to just buy a new copy and save yourself the hassle. If you don't like it go use a competitors product. MS has already decided that it isn't worth their time to help you. Sad, but true.

Fanboy

[drooling-dog]

You couldn't be any less helpful if you were an idiot fanboy. Oh...yeah...

Hmmm... So you're the one who puts up with this shit, paying for the priviledge of doing so, and I'm the fanboy? Interesting perspective you have there!

e-machines=POS

[macaroo]

Your first mistake is buying the cheapest POS (piece of $hit) on the market; e-machines. I am in the computer repair business and have seen at least 3 of these units, in the past year, where the crappy Bestec power supply calves in two years and takes the motherboard with it. After the second one, I researched this out on the InterNet and found that this is a common problem. I tell my customers they are better taking the money they would spend on repairs and buying something new as long as it isn't another e-machine.

Enter the Key from the back of the computer

[Anonymous Coward]

If this has been said before then sorry, but I did not have time to read the rest of the posts.

I replaced a bad Mobo on an Emachines last year. In order to reactivate Windows I had to re-enter the License key that is on the sticker on the back of the computer. From what I understand of most OEMs is that they install the OS using one key and then they put your key on the back of your computer. When you need to reactivate Windows you need to update it with the correct Windows key.

Before realizing this I went through the calling EMachines and calling MS about this. Only after realizing the license key was not matching was I able to go on with the repair. I do not remember which option I chose to get to the entry of the Key but after I did that, it was a simple call to the activation line and reading off all those numbers and writing down all of their numbers to enter into the computer for reactivation.

I do not know if newer computers from OEMs are using the correct license key. I suspect they should in order to get around the WGA. But I am not sure. This was my first experience with XP activation. I still use Win2k on my Windows machine, and I have moved to Linux for everything else.

Where do I send the bill?

[mandelbr0t]

So great. The solution is to call Microsoft, and everyone swears they'll happily hand over a license key instead of trying to get more money out of you. Unfortunately, my time is rather valuable and it's really Microsoft that's wasting my time. If it was my fault, they wouldn't have given me a new license key, so ergo...

OK, so after I jump through the hoops of wasting my time with Microsoft, I've now had to charge my client extra. Realistically, it should be Microsoft that pays my consulting bill here, not the client who shouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Anyone know where to send such a bill?

Re:Where do I send the bill?

[Anonymous Coward]

Realistically, it should be Microsoft that pays my consulting bill here, not the client who shouldn't have had the problem in the first place. Anyone know where to send such a bill?

That's insane. The client hired you. The client is paying for your time. Not MS. MS doesn't even have any contractual relationship with you. (Unless there are more details you didn't mention.)

If the old lady next door hires me to go buy groceries for her, does that mean I should bill the supermarket for the time I spend in the checkout line?

Re:Where do I send the bill?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Unfortunately, my time is rather valuable"

Are you sure about that? You're posting on /. for crying out loud.

attempt at imspeak: ru sur bout da? ur postin on /. 4 cryn out loud.

Similar Problem

[biggunks]

This fall, I had to replace the hard drive on my emachines. That means there was no restore partition and the system restore cd had been misplaced long ago. I called support and they couldn't fathom why the restore partition was gone. I don't find stupidity all that amusing. So, I switched to Ubuntu linux and haven't looked back. Otherwise, the box quietly runs 24/7.

Drop "Mother May I" Products!

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy suggests a class-action lawsuit against Micro$oft, but I'd like to see people take another tact - drop Micro$oft products! I won't use an OS which REQUIRES me to register with the mother ship.

The only reason Micro$oft can get away with this crap is because people have let them become a monopoly. Monopolies are inherently bad, because they bring out the greed and reduce the competitiveness in mankind.

This seems like a clear cut class action suit

[ozzee]

IANAL.

After reading some of the posts on how it takes hours to get a successful activation after a MB change (or some other components), it appears that clearly that MS is not holding up their end of the EULA bargain.

I think the EFF or some rabid lawyers can easy extract a judgement from a judge against Microsoft on this one.

It's pretty clear. MS says they'll allow you to do somthing which they make nigh impossible for some peaople or make techs spend hours on the phone (which means money to the customer) and many just buy another copy which means more money to MS. MS has no incentive to help you because the less they help you the more money they make. It's a real scam.

On top of that, MS IS already convicted as a monoploy so even the smell of somthing improper like forcing customers to dish more cash than they expected. Acts like RICO come to mind. If I can show that 5% of customers have this problem, that means that MS would owe billions to it's customers and probably trebble because it's probably easy to show that they do it on purpose if you can find some good examples of badly treated customers or OEMS.

On top of that, the FUD alone of a lawsuit like this one would be a big problem for MS. In this case the actual consumer gets to feel like it's getting a bad deal and will probably cause more people to look for alternatives.

More FUD over MS licensing...

[King_of_Crunk]

If you read the OEM EULA it states that the motherboard is concidered to be the heart and soul of your computer and once changed will result in the voiding of your OEM license. BUT if the mother board is replaced with the same board OR an equivelant by the company from which you purchased it then your license is still good being the OEM manufacturer is still supporting your system.

If you did as you said and sent the machine back to eMachines then all you would have to do is call Microsoft and have your machine reactivated which involves a whole 10 mins of your time to do generally. Which I am sure is alot less time then it took for eMacine support to even talk to you.

I have done this before and it is not a real hard task and guess what simply explain what happened and Microsoft will gladly get you activated with no argument needed.

Re:More FUD over MS licensing...

[se-wired]

I'll second this. They've done the same for me before with my computer.

Re:More FUD over MS licensing...

[BCW2]

When you try to explain this to the person in India and they don't understand, it becomes a big pain in the ass. I have been through it over a hundred times since I'm a tech at a whitebox store. We reactivate it so the customer doesn't have to go through the hassle. Normally the way around it is to demand to speak to a supervisor. It boils down to asserting your rights and never allow them to follow their script.

dump that creepyware

[dmorelli]

You know, these fine operating systems (and others of their family) will never put you in the situation of being kicked out of your own box:

Debian GNU/Linux
Ubuntu

You might say it's against their "business plan" to behave that way towards users.

That's strange

[Ivan Matveich]

My GNU system never seems to have any of these weird activation problems. Maybe I'm just lucky?

Repair Computer, Repurchase OS?

[Anonymous Coward]

We are a computer repair shop & have come across that problem for many years.
How to solve it: Get somebody else CD i.e. an OEM copy of Windows XP Home edition. Boot to the CD, tell the CD to install the software to INSTALL Windows & skip the repair command prompt business. After, the installation will recognize your "old" Windows & ask you if instead of reinstalling Windows & wiping your hard drive, you want to REPAIR Windows. Say Yes!
Go through the installation, insert the product key listed on the sticker in the back of the emachine. At the final reboot it will ask you to re register with Microsoft. YES call India & be nice to them, they are only the tech support guys after all. Tell them that yes you are reinstalling Windows on the same machine it came on after you switched motherboard, yes you are doing a repair/install, yes this is the original disk that came with the machine, and yes you are NOT stealing for Bill's megacorp-megaprofit company... The nice guy or gal in India will give you then a confirmation number & presto your PC will be back from the dead!
You have to be creative in this business to stay legal (YOU OWN the product key, therefore YOU OWN the license to "one" Windows copy that works!) and to be able to do what you want anyway.
Cheers!

Jo - the coward

A more important question

[pyite69]

Why do you continue to use a product after being treated poorly? What will it take for people to just stop using Windows - the pain of learning new apps is becoming less and less every day.

It's not a new computer!

[Flyskippy1]

Back in my garage, I have the axe used by George Washington to cut down that famous cherry tree. It's had seven new handles since then, and 3 new axe-heads, but it's the same axe!

Now, you're probably fine with just replacing the motherboard, but how many parts can you replace before the computer is no longer legally the same OEM computer that you have a Windows license for? What if you replace the motherboard, cpu, and case, leaving only the harddrive, with the copy of windows, original. Is it still the same OEM computer? (Actually, I'm sure legally that if you replaced even one of those with non-OEM parts, the license probably can be voided, but in practice Microsoft is nicer than that. It might be fun for MS to attempt to detect a change of the case, though. *_*)

So, is this a legal or philisophical question? Aren't the intersections of law and philosophy fun?

Sounds like BS to me...

[DescentToCocytus]

I have been using the same copy of XP since XP was released. I have performed about 4 full motherboard/ram/processor upgrades in that time, the most recent of which was only about 5 weeks ago, and had no trouble getting activation at all. For the first 3 upgrades, I didn't even have to call MS for activation. I had to call them for the 4th one, but there was no hassle what so ever. I simply explained that it was an upgrade on a preexisting system and they gave me an activation key no questions asked. /Didn't RTFA

the real solution

[lunatic77]

upgrade from windoze to linux...

Questionable legality?

[kevin lyda]

You agreed to the MS EULA. No where does it say it will work on every computer you buy - in fact it's pretty clear that they don't guarentee it will work at all. I'm a Unix/Linux user and have no great love for MS - their business practices are revolting to be honest - but it's been clear for years that their anti-copying policies restricted h/w upgrades. Regardless of what *you* call it, you had a hardware upgrade from the OSs perspective.

Quit whining. And you might consider your alternatives in the future - or you can keep repeating the same mistake over and over. Your call.

Re:Questionable legality?

[Blymie]

No, I don't agree to the MS EULA. I buy some software, it's mine (yes, it is, I own that copy under the law). I take it home and open it, and some stupid prompt stops me from using my LEGALLY OWNED COPY OF SOFTWARE unless I click "yes".

It's extortion, and quite invalid. Only if I sign away my rights _before_ purchase, are such agreements valid.

MS Custoemr Services

[AngelshadowX]

On every single machine that I have replaced hardware on, and then the OS says it needs to be activated, or even if I have replaced the whole machine and used the same copy of XP. A phone call to MS telling them that it is a replacement for the old machine, they have regenerated the activation key for me. Not a single problem in all the years since XP came out. The Customer Services section at MS, expects you to upgrade/replace your machine. As long as your old machine goes into retirement, then there is no problem. :) The sales guy telling you to re-purchase the OS, is an idiot or trying to increase his profit margin....more than likely both :)

The Dealio

[psnail]

I know I've had this issue before. eMachines has no idea what they're talking about.

This may have already been said, but eMachines uses a bulk license (the same key) on entire series of machines. They give you a unique key but that doesn't change the fact that your computer has this bulk key. If you go to activate and "Change Product Key" you'll notice that the one on the side of your case and the one actually on the PC differ. Type your correct product key and attempt to activate again. It probably will still make you call MS but they'll let you activate it this time.

The ultimate lazy-ass get rich scheme...

[Dretep]

Is it possible that there are enough disgruntled consumers bit by this problem to generate a class-action lawsuit?" I sense B.S. just like everyone else... And who uses an eMachine??

microsoft, use a damn dongle!

[speculatrix]

any remember dongles.. the old sort fitted on your parallel port, and enabled expensive software like autocad to run.

people didn't like them, because they often had multiple dongles, and they were sometime incompatible

now, with USB, it'd be trivial. also MS could afford to give away a four-port usb hub with vista premium max super one that costs US$600 or whatever. then, you can install vista on all your computers, or upgrade/repair in anyway, and your key is still valid. bonus points if MS allow you to transfer keys from one dongle to another. You could also sell your copy in a fair manner and the buyer would run the risk of the license being revoked by MS.

now, don't get me wrong, I hate copy protection as much as anyone, but lets make it easy, transparent, and fair. moreover, potential buyers would then have to face up to licensing conditions squarely, instead of, as at the moment, thinking they can get away with buying one copy for their entire family... if they realised it was going to cost US$1000 for the three machines at home, they might decide to try linux.

Re:microsoft, use a damn dongle!

[geekoid]

It would still ahve all the issues a dongle did.
How much resources does it take? Do I need to take it with my laptop? Is it ONLY needed at intial activiation or is it going to be doing it regularly?

Will the system still run if the USB drivers fail?

WIll I need a dongle for every application?(answer:Yes)

The great thing about the dongle was that when a company went under and we didn't ahve anybody to turn to to buy new lisense or support, we could make new ones areself. Pretty easy actually to copy one.

Re:microsoft, use a damn dongle!

[speculatrix]

the policy for requiring the dongle would be set by Microsoft -
every boot
every 10th boot
for product activation

I don't see how using it purely to activate as a one-shot would stop a group of people sharing the same license.

if usb interface driver fails, then yes, you'd be fscked. that'd be a bigger problem in a laptop if no pcmcia slot to add a usb card. but you'd be f'd if the video card failed, that's the price.

the point is that it'd be fair, but harsh. unlike the old parallel dongles, a crypto dongle would be much hard to hack. the idea is to prevent mass piracy, leaking of corporate keys, and be only the mildest of inconvenience to the end user, which WGA etc is definitely not achieving.

and I still don't like it, but it'd be better than WGA and the arbitrary revocation of license keys that MS can provoke.

fun software

[jaimz22]

this is why people make activation cracking programs... no really.. i swear it is!

maybe this is usefull...

[nicospoul]

Recently I replaced my mobo and unfortunately I ran into similar problems... After a lot of research i found that THERE IS a way to repair the original installation and re-activate your OS (via telephone) without re-installing... I have compiled the steps I followed in an article found here. Although it is a Greek site don't worry , this article is written in English! I hope that you find this usefull...

The reason why.

[Thirdsin]

From my understanding, the license provided for your XP OS with that machine was limited for that "machine" only. With that specific license for that machine; a significant change in internal hardware changes the "machine" and voids your license terms. Check the good 'ol Readme or Eula with the machine paperwork, it's in there.
It's the same way with most consumer PCs now-a-days, HP, Gateway, etc. Sorry, lol, build your own damn machine! :-)

<3

The customer chose to use products.

[tepples]

The customers chose to use Microsoft products.

The customer chose to use products, full stop. Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to Dell, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, and other Lenovo-compatible PC manufacturers such that nobody else's home OS products are advertised in mainstream media. Can you blame the customer for choosing to use products?

Re:The customer chose to use products.

[Anonymous Coward]

The customer chose to use products, full stop. Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to Dell, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, and other Lenovo-compatible PC manufacturers such that nobody else's home OS products are advertised in mainstream media.

Er, doesn't the phrase "Hi, I'm a Mac" sound familiar to you?

Re:The customer chose to use products.

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to Dell, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, and other Lenovo-compatible PC manufacturers such that nobody else's home OS products Yeah, right. They did what you said or they were using mafia-like business practices...

Oh...wait!

Weird morality you have.

[Anonymous Coward]

.... [story about how he pirates Window for some people because he doesn't like some of the terms of the license] ...
For the record, you'd better believe I'v refused to do installs of pirated copies of windows.

Uh, so basically you said that when you feel like it you pirate Windows and when you don't feel like it you don't? What "record" is that for, your criminal one?

microsoft.....

[Anonymous Coward]

same problem, but i was really irate, and i finally got a key. HOWEVER, i now have to call in every time i want to reformat my computer. my original repair was also a main board, but i did it myself.

i also have a scratched windows disk out of the box, and they will do nothing to replace it. i thought i paid $300 for the os and not the disc.....

get ready for the coming battle. microsoft will make their move soon.

Call Microsoft!

[moran]

I have replaced motherboards in Customers Machines and successfully reactivated. I had to call Microsoft and explain that existing system Board died and that we had to replace it with a more recent model which was covered under 3 Yr warranty. Microsoft asked asked for the name of company I was working calling from, and after a few other questions completed activation process with no issues. I am wondering if your supplier did a dodgy and activated a couple of other machines using you key and Microsoft have blacklisted key. I would personally speak to Microsoft direct.

Do what everyone else does, pirate!

[billcopc]

This is much like the problems plaguing copy protection used for PC games, where you need to leave the CD in the drive to play. It's annoying and inconvenient, so a lot of people just use a cracked patch and do away with the CD requirement. Microsoft here is alienating a legitimate customer because of zealous restrictions. Problem is, computer repairs are an inevitable fact of life. They're made in frickin' taiwan by a bunch of coked-out engineers and they're built so cheap I wonder how the gear even survives shipping. For Microsoft to design their copy protection scheme in a way that amplifies computer failures is so brutally ignorant, but most people have no alternative, they're going to put up with whatever Microsoft puts out, good or bad. The shame in all this is that a lot of people have probably been in the same situation and, lacking better knowledge, they ended up buying another copy of the OS they already own.

What I'm saying is screw the DMCA. You've bought the software with your computer, you own it. Go ahead and get an activation crack or whatever works for you. You may be breaking some frivolous law by doing so, but you're morally right. Laws are supposed to protect people, not profits.

Developers, developers, developers, developers

[tepples]

Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to Dell, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, and other Lenovo-compatible PC manufacturers such that nobody else's home OS products are advertised in mainstream media. Er, doesn't the phrase "Hi, I'm a Mac" sound familiar to you? No. I've seen Mac commercials on YouTube, but I hardly ever see them on cable television compared to Dell, Gateway, and HP commercials.

More importantly, Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to developers of proprietary application software and peripherals. Customers choose an application and then choose an operating system that can run this. For far too many applications, the only compatible OS is a Microsoft product.

Re:Developers, developers, developers, developers

[soft_guy]

Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to Dell, Gateway, Hewlett-Packard, and other Lenovo-compatible PC manufacturers such that nobody else's home OS products are advertised in mainstream media. Er, doesn't the phrase "Hi, I'm a Mac" sound familiar to you? No. I've seen Mac commercials on YouTube, but I hardly ever see them on cable television compared to Dell, Gateway, and HP commercials. That's because Apple doesn't advertise on porn channels.

Re:Developers, developers, developers, developers

[falconwolf]

More importantly, Microsoft has done a damn good job of exclusively promoting its products to developers of proprietary application software and peripherals. Customers choose an application and then choose an operating system that can run this. For far too many applications, the only compatible OS is a Microsoft product.

I disagree, promoting to developers isn't why Windows owns most desktops. MS's Monopoly practicies and stranglehold on OEMs is why more computers run Windows than any other OS. As for what apps are used, other than games most people don't install apps they've bought, they use the apps that are installed for them. And for nearly every app for Windows users can find the same or an equivilant app for Linux or Macs. MS even makes Office for Macs, which most people use for word processing, spread sheets, and such. However Open Office is getting to be a good replacement.

Falcon

Re:Developers, developers, developers, developers

[linuxfanatic1024]

I'm not even a programmer, and I use Linux on a daily basis for everything, and I don't have a single Windows installation (or a Mac). It IS already good enough for people who are willing to accept the differences.

That said, most people panic because the names of the programs don't include "Microsoft" or "Adobe" in them... because it's different. They don't WANT to learn.

Re:Developers, developers, developers, developers

[FlameSnyper]

Avoid Missing Ball for High Score Dude, I've seen that... what game is that from?

Re:Developers, developers, developers, developers

[Anonymous Coward]

Pong.

Re:Developers, developers, developers, developers

[tomservo84]

As for what apps are used, other than games most people don't install apps they've bought, they use the apps that are installed for them.

"Yup...huh-huh...yup...I bought this here Pho-to-shop...Duuuuh...I paid $700 for it...but...duh...I won't install it."

Dude...wtf do you mean? If you bother to buy some piece of software you're going to install it.

What did work

[Propaganda13]

Actually, it's an OEM license. I called once on an OEM license that wouldn't activate through the automated system. The operator told me that it was OEM and he couldn't help me, talk to the manufacturer.

Here's what did work for me. I was in the call area of the activation, at the bottom was a change code button. I hit that, re-entered the code then went back to the automated part and it worked. Trust me, it was no typo on the code the first time. YMMV

Pirate it.

[nbritton]

It is unfair... I suggest you pirate it. Find a volume license key and go to town. I suggest you Google for "Magical Jelly Bean Keyfinder" and download it to your USB flash drive. this will help on your quest to find a legit volume license key.

File under...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft Tops Corporate-Reputation Survey"

Cheers!

legal? doubtful

[MEForeman]

This is "onboarding," where you can only buy one thing (what you want) if you buy a second thing (that you don't want or should not have to buy).

I'm not surprised e-machines is pulling this, anyone who buys an emachines computer should be punched in the face. And no, I am not joking. They are pieces of crap.

I do this everyday, nothing new buddy!

[Temporalwar]

I see emachines everyday with fried mainboards do to the fact when the PSU (Bestec) fails it over volts the board and fries the south bridge (and sometimes the MEM/CPU)

If you can get a replacement board, I use asrock boards, they are cheap and they still are easy to find and have bios updates ect.
you can use a generic windows XP Home disk and the COA from case of the machine, and activate over the phone or online if the machine is older.

the Key in windows from the emachine factory does not activate it is a OEM
"royalty key" that is preactivated from the factory based on the bios.

if the cpu is fried, just get a cheap 754 chip and board combo for less then $100 USD

Do not forget to replace the PSU in the machine, antec/PSP/sparkle/seasonic are great brands to look into.

This issue also extends into some hp/dells ect.

Machines are very cheap, you can score a nice Acer machine (they use gigabyte mainboards ect.) for $400> USD and they come with everything you need COA/KEY and they allow you to make a restore DVD set that is a nice respawn system with very little bloat.

HSV2600.com

GigaParts.com

call microsoft

[prk60091]

they will 1st tell you to call emachines = which is bs
then they will tell you that you are only entitled to 1 license= which is bs
then you will tell them that you paid for a license and you want a license that works
they will give you a brand spanking new license

i just did that in December.

good luck (it did take me about 5 calls over 3-4 days to get it accomplished but it can and is done.

The problem probably isn't the key

[Anonymous Coward]

A friend of mine had a similar problem last year when his motherboard on his e-machine failed. The key to his problem was that the OEM version that he got simply wasn't a full distribution of XP Home; they only put the chipset data, etc. that was relevant to the known OEM system. He borrowed a full XP Home cd-rom and did the installation with his key, and it installed fine; the MS system recognized the key as a legitimate one. This solution, though distasteful in that neither the manufacturer or Microsoft is actually solving the problem, might work for the poster.

Repair Computer, Repurchase OS?

[Siggy200]

Same problem, called the number listed by telephone to activate Windows XP Home with a new motherboard. Explained that my other motherboard was fried, and could not be repaired. Also explained that I was senior citizen living on fixed income and that I was using the same hard drive as before and that I was not trying to cheat by having two copies of Windows XP home. Reply was "sigh, OK this one time we will let you reactivate the license". How good of him!!!! I understand that under Vista they may allow reactivation as they said some users like to update the motherboard and hard drive. Any one else read this?

I don't see how.

[SphericalCrusher]

I work in a mid-sized computer repair shop (I'm the lead tech actually) and we replace motherboards in e-machines all the time. I've even replaced one this week, and once it's done, I do a Windows XP repair on the new harddrive (due to recognizing the new motherboard and such and then activate by using Windows Activation through the telephone. After that, I proceed to load down motherboard drivers and download the rest of his critical updates... and so no so forth. Activating by telephone just consists of calling Microsoft, punching in the activation code, answering a couple of questions... and worst case scenario, explaining to them that you had to replace the motherboard (only if it's been activated one too many times). I've never ran into a situation where I just couldn't activate it.

New Key? NO PROBLEM

[Anonymous Coward]

We do this at our repair shop a dozen times a day with all different brands of computers. We call Microsoft on the 800 number provided on the authorization screen, read the code generated on screen to their voice recognition program, get transfered to someone in India, tell them we are repairing the computer and replaced XYZ. They give us a new code we type in and all is done. e-Machine, Sony, Dell, whitebox, etc - makes NO difference. Don't talk to the manufacturer - nothing they can do. Talk to Microsoft just like the screen says.

There's an easy way to get past this...

[gjsmo]

I've installed Office 2003 OEM on a laptop and desktop by dialing the number, telling them I had to reinstall Windows, and then getting the code. Seriously though, if you're not using it on more than one computer, it is legal and the EULA says so. So shaddup, M$.

eMachines HAH!

[SatireWolf]

I have seen more dead eMachines than any other computer on the planet. They die on average 1 year after they come online for the first time. Everything from dead ps2 ports (yes I know, but it happens) to exploading capacitors.. Did you ever consider the fallacy in buying an eMachine in the first place?

what is crazy?

[falconwolf]

Seriously, I know Slashdotters are anti-social and hate talking to people, but can the damned excuses. Either you can use a phone, or you can use TTY. You can come up with crazy situations all day long, but it all comes down to that.

Activation is what's crazy, along with WGA!!! Because of these, MS has forced me to switch to Linux and Macs.

Falcon

I wonder?

[debozero]

How much of that leads to this?

One In Five Windows Installs Is Non-Genuine

I know I have run into this working on old PC's from friends and family who loose their OS disk.

Oh alright

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me the devil's advocate, how does MS arrive at the 25% figure when so many machines come pre-installed with an MS OS version?

Well the answer is in the last word of the question, wich version was licensed and wich version is installed? Check for instance Dell's site and you will see that by default for most PC's they offer Windows XP Home. Not Pro. So if you then install a Pro version of XP on it, by MS way of thinking you have just pirated their OS. yes you got a legal MS OS license but not one for the actuall version you are using.

Same offcourse with people who upgraded from other versions without actually buying it as MS wants you too. Wasn't 98SE an product instead of a patch wich you were expected to pay for?

Offcourse against MS argument there is this one. How many times do people have a license for an MS product that they have not actually bought.

In the netherlands we use a sort of token system (strips) to pay for public transport, they come in reduced and regular versions with the reduced version only available to old people and students and kids. Most bus drivers will however accept a payment of 2 reduced tokens for 1 regular token or vice versa if you find yourselve short accidently.

Would MS accept that if I got say two computers, all with XP Home licenses but one runs linux that I can run XP pro on the other? Two Home == One Pro?

Offcourse not, that is how MS comes at the high piracy number, not by measuring how many actuall licenses there are versus the number of computers but going for the strict mode of guessing how many licenses actually match what is installed.

As long as their are MS apologists (plenty here) who excuse everything MS does, then they can keep claiming that piracy is killing them, not matter how many billions they report in profit.

How do you regonize an MS apoligist, they tell you just how easy it is to phone up MS to get an activation for a legally bought piece of software that just won't work because you replaced a piece of hardware. Imagine you had to phone Ford because you installed new tires and now your car won't start.

Bullshit. Get a job in industry.

[BigBlockMopar]

Only Old People Repair Computers Now

Bullshit. There are also *lots* of computers with specialized hardware which is impossible/difficult/expensive to replace. Engine management computers I've repaired on ships tended to be HP Vectra 486 machines with custom modifications. This is basically the ECM; as in your car, it controls the fuel injection... except the engine is a 4-storey-tall diesel. They do everything from reading sensors and adjusting parameters to logging conditions. When you've got a modified (ie. manually-done solder connections all over the board) Vectra controlling diesel fuel in gallons-per-minute quantities, you spend time troubleshooting and repairing it as it needs. Especially when the replacement hacked Vectra is in the $40,000 range, and each day the ship sits at dock waiting for parts is $10k+ in port and fuel fees, $5k+ in labor (bored sailor) fees, and $40k+ in lost revenues. And that's a small ship.

Same sort of scenario if a specialized PC fails and takes out an assembly line or a steel mill or even a grocery store.

I built my own capacitor ESR tester, and I have repaired dozens of motherboards with it. Knowing how to do that (rather than just simple board replacement) is a terrific way to earn gratitude alongside with bucks. (Fixing stuff with homebuilt test equipment also tends to make the customer think you're Einstein.)

And you think the XP license is restrictive? (Well, it is, given its market.) You should see some of the stuff - intelligent dongles on parallel ports, software which quizzes you about the hardware on which it was installed, etc.

Quick and easy

[ThreeDayMonk]

I'm no fan of MS: in fact, I don't even run Windows. However, I haven't had any problems with their phone staff.

I called Microsoft the other day to reactivate a computer I'd deloused and reimaged for a friend. I spoke to someone in Delhi who was helpful, charming, and spoke excellent American-inflected English - all at what must have been 04:00 local time for him. He got the details he needed and gave me an activation code without any messing around.

Perhaps I was just lucky, but my experience with MS's support staff has been very good - much better than with some of the other companies I have to call.

Class Action? Are you a lawyer?

[Random Q. Hacker]

Yeah, file a class action lawsuit so you can make some lawyer a millionaire, and get about half of what you deserve at best.

Seriously, if you really have a case, file in small claims court. You'll get all the money and chances are they won't even show up to defend themselves.

Re:Not an activation issue, yes it is(was)

[Anonymous Coward]

I posted the original question. The problem is indeed activation. Missing from the summary is the fact that I called Microsoft 3x and emachines 2x regarding the issue. Each time, for MS, the problem was the "install id" which revealed that this was an emachines computer, at which point the conversation ended. Even though I was tactful and did not raise my voice the person taking my call hung up on me as I persisted to make my point. I have learned from another source (I've not read all the posts yet, the parent post implies too) that one way to resolve this is to do a repair install with other media (same version of XP, not emachines recovery disk), generate a new "install id" and then they will talk to you. Seems like unnecessary work to me and likely to result in WGA problems as well.

Getting new activation codes from MS

[yossie]

Here is what I do..
a) call 1-800-936-5700 - pick option 0.
b) tell them you recently retired a computer, threw it physically out, and saved the activation code from the sticker on it.
c) tell them you want a NEW activation code since the one you have won't work in a new system - they will ask for it.
c) tell them the part number of the install disk you have - either OEM or retail, it's on the CD.
d) DON'T let them tell you they won't give you a code, they will, just keep insisting. Don't let them transfer you to someone else, or recommend using a different 800 number, they are just trying to get rid of you.
e) if they ask for an OEM name, tell em the one you have, or invent one (ideally one that exists). It doesn't matter, really.
The question is, why is it so hard to get this to happen. I've done it three times, recently, and each and every time it took over an hour on the phone to make it happen, in all cases it happened.
Sheesh - gotta love MS (!NOT!) - Yossie

My 2 ...

[PhxBlue]

Until the day you replace the entire PC, it's the same computer.

I had one computer from 1992 until 2003. It was a 386/40, a 486 DX, a Pentium and an AMD at various points in its "life" until someone broke into my home and took it, because at no point did I break down and build a new system.

In other words, what kept the computer contiguous (again, IMO) was the data and applications on it. The hardware changed, the software changed, but I never thought of it as multiple computers because it never was.

eMachines came with Windows, right?

[zhrinze]

So when you bought this machine, do you REALLY think you paid more than $40 for that copy of Windows? Does it suck that you'd have to buy another copy? Sure. But if I decided to go with another mobo, especially a non-eMachines board, I'd pay for the generic OEM CD which is much more convenient (actually installable on whatever mobo or system I might switch to).

Or I might use Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD.

I might even get desperate and use a Mac! (Seriously, it's a good machine, just more money than I want to spend.)

Um, so what.

[lifebouy]

1. E-machine. Enough said! 2. Allow me to introduce you to another option: Ubuntu. It's easy. If you are capable of submitting a story to slashdot, you are capable of setting up Linux on your (crappy E-machine) computer. You may or may not be able to use that fancy camera/printer thing you got for Christmas last year, but the vast majority of your stuff should work. Next time you'll know to ask the sales clerk if it's linux compatible (and not take his word for it, but to look it up yourself.) 3. Is Slashdot really this hard up for news? Microsoft is a P.O.S. company--that's news? Please find an article on some neat new gadget. Or about paint drying. Something that doesn't include the words "Microsoft" or "Vista." Or even "Linux," if it's the announcement of some incremental release of Distro "x."

Check the key

[Anonymous Coward]

I had a mainboard failure on an eMachine a couple of years ago. Swapping all the hardware to a new MB went smoothly; however, I had problems when I tried to reactivate.

I discovered that the license key in the installed OS on the HD did not match the key on the label on the case. When I entered the label key instead, I could then reactivate.

emachines

[HermMunster]

I own and operate a computer repair shop. This past summer I had an inordinate number of emachines in with blown motherboards. It started with a series of spikes which affected the power supply and then blew the motherboard. For a while there I had so many come into the shop that I didn't know if it would ever stop. The end result was a replacement motherboard -- and not from emachines. I purchased better quality boards with a richer feature-set and installed new power supplies and reinstalled the OS. Most of the time I had to use the code on the side of the case. You should consider that.

This summer's run on emachine deaths is indicative of a very cheap power system in their design and probably should result in a class-action lawsuit itself, if ever the numbers are correlated.

Solution: Windows 2000.

[Sugar Watkins]

I have been using Windows XP at work for at least a year and a half now, but I still haven't found any reason whatsoever to upgrade beyond Windows 2000 at home. Windows 2000 does not use product activation, and is stable. So what if Microsoft doesn't support it anymore? It still works great, and I have yet to run into a software application I like that won't run on it. Seriously... so many people just act like sheep, in regard to accepting the "Thou Shalt Upgrade" commandment from Microsoft, without question.

So, in conclusion, I remain steadfast in my resolution to never buy another Microsoft operating system. And surely copies of Windows 2000 are still available on eBay, or elsewhere.

Also, you may want to start experimenting with using Linux. I'm using it more and more often these days, as I learn its capabilities. So I would recommend downloading a Knoppix Linux image, burning it to a CD-R or DVD+R, booting it up via CD/DVD drive, and playing with that. It will not affect any of the data stored on your PC (unless you direct it to).

various solutions for your current predicament

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok. Yes. It was inevitable...
(So mod me an AC Troll, if you like.)

They're still good solutions for this perniscious problem.

http://www.ubuntu.com/
http://fedora.redhat.com/
http://www.mandriva.com/
http://www.debian.org/

or any other flavour of choice:
http://distrowatch.com/

You can even try CD-based versions to see how you really like it before touching a thing on your current system:
http://ubuntu-releases.cs.umn.edu/6.06/
http://www.knoppix.com/

__________

Booting your machine from a CD or DVD ISO to try it out - free.
Selecting your Open Source OS of choice, installing it, and using it however you like - free.
Discovering that, for most things*, it just 'works', will never blue-screen again, and that you've escaped the Microsoft lock-in treadmill - priceless.

* seriously folks, if you want esoterica, it's there too, and yes -- as with all things -- 'your mileage will vary'. But for sane and reasonable interpretations of 'most' this is still true, and not an exaggeration.

"Nobody ever tried TRUE foo" applies broadly

[Ungrounded Lightning]

Yep- oh wait- Leninism and Maoism != communism, in fact had very little to do with communism other than window dressing.

Yes, nobody ever tried "true marxism".

But nobody ever tried "true capatalism" either.

And "true Christainity". And "true Islam". And "true whatever" for a very large list.

You can't judge an ideology by what it promises. You must go by what it mutates into when people actually attempt to implement its prescriptions.

After a number of trials the various socialist forms have mostly mutated into totalitarianisms of various sorts, with the main exceptions being cooperative businesses built by warping the corporate model by making the customers the shareholders.

Meanwhile, capitalism, even as it warps into mercantilsit and other monopolist tendencies, tends to feed, clothe, house, entertain, and empower its players better than just about anything else.

Which is not surprising, since free-market systems reward and empower those who produce, while socialist systems explicitly punish production and reward consumption - leading their industries to function badly and requiring coercive power to make them function at all.

Re:"Nobody ever tried TRUE foo" applies broadly

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Yes, nobody ever tried "true marxism".

Incorrect- true marxism has been tried on the small scale and tends to break down at about 800 citizens. Which is why I'm "Marxist Hacker" instead of "Marxist"- I think it can be done with more people, but you need to put the machines in charge instead of the bureaucrats, and you need to have your engineering right. Marx didn't have computers, and thus his method is the unrefined and unworkable version.

But nobody ever tried "true capatalism" either.

Actually, that's been done rather sucessfully in the Principality of Monacco, as well as other small countries. HOWEVER, due to the chaotic nature of the market, nobody can prove if it is working or not working, because the data is too chaotic to examine.

And "true Christainity". And "true Islam". And "true whatever" for a very large list.

Well, true Christianity is arguably workable as Marxism is- it works great in small communal groups, such as monasteries.

You can't judge an ideology by what it promises. You must go by what it mutates into when people actually attempt to implement its prescriptions.

The problem with Lenin and Stalin is exactly that- they failed to even try to implement Marxism, and instead kept party membership to an elite group. Not that they would have succeeded if they tried; without computers Marxism breaks down when the number of needs exceeds the computational ability of the community.

After a number of trials the various socialist forms have mostly mutated into totalitarianisms of various sorts, with the main exceptions being cooperative businesses built by warping the corporate model by making the customers the shareholders.

And also cooperative businesses built by warping the corporate model by making the workers the shareholders. And also, once again, Catholic Monestaries and Contemplative Communities and Convents, where Marx got his original ideas. But once again, due to a lack of ability to process data, this cannot be adopted nationwide. My favorite analogy: Any ecconomic system where you can't kill the person who cheated you because you don't know who he is, is one that will break down into some form of totalitarianism.

Meanwhile, capitalism, even as it warps into mercantilsit and other monopolist tendencies, tends to feed, clothe, house, entertain, and empower its players better than just about anything else.

Where did you get that idea? I see it failing everywhere it's been tried, it's just another form of bread and circuses to distract you from what is really going on- just another form of totalitarianism, like any other anonymous market.

Which is not surprising, since free-market systems reward and empower those who produce, while socialist systems explicitly punish production and reward consumption - leading their industries to function badly and requiring coercive power to make them function at all.

Apparently you missed the part Marx borrowed from Plato- the Maximum Wage theory which explicitly rewards production. But that's ok- Lenin missed it to, as did Mao.

Re:"Nobody ever tried TRUE foo" applies broadly

[iminplaya]

...but you need to put the machines in charge instead of the bureaucrats...

You've been reading my link, haven't you?

Re:"Nobody ever tried TRUE foo" applies broadly

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Actually, no, but I've been reading Manna by Marshall Brain and it occurs to me that both the dystopian and utopian possibilities in that sci-fi novel can be done with current technology. We finally have data stores big enough, networks fast enough, to mine the needs of billions to fullfill those needs. We can do so basically (dystopian) or luxuriously (utopian), but we can at least make sure there is no longer any waste in the system.

The e-Machines rep even said repurchasing XP was m

[GnarlyNome]

guess he never heard of Linux

same EXACT same problem here

[iggy_mon]

the solution seems to be to document everything then pirate windows (as i did) since you have a valid license (as i do) and no remediation. counter sue when it comes.

when is windows xp not windows xp? when it is full version, upgrade edition, oem edition, e-Machines edition (seriously, oem editions don't accept eMachine's license), corporate edition... ( i know i'm missing some)

but enough ranting. i fixed mine with ubuntu and keep a fully licensed-pirated windows for ONE game ;-) if you play C&C Renegade i play as iggy_mon (i know you didnt see that coming :-)

next step is to virtualize xp in ubuntu and have a spare drive for the pr0n ;-)

Had the same problem...

[evilviper]

Had the same problem, fixing a friend's HP... Failed just over a year (southbridge chip got up to several hundred degrees, just a few seconds after power-on). Only $60 for a mobo, so I swapped it.

XP wouldn't boot on the new board, because of the different IDE controller... For some reason, Microsoft has remained intentionally idiotic on the issue for decades now. If you have a BartPE disc, and the skill to do some tricky registry editing, it is fixable: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=216382&cid=175 65792

After that, everything was fine, EXCEPT for WGA. Went through the telephone spiel, only to find it calling me a pirate. Since the software is 100% legal I felt no compunction at all in using some grey-market tools to patch winlogon.exe (see http://astalavista.box.sk/ -- NSFW) , and everything has worked 100% perfectly from there on.

DRM is tolerable only when it doesn't get it your way, and doesn't compromise your privacy. WGA fails completely on both counts.

That little event led me to start learning about customizing Windows 2000 install CDs, because I realize I'm going to be using that version of Windows for a very LONG time into the future, so better make the best of it.

The moral of this tale

[allikat_uk]

As a former OEM System builder the following facts are readily apparant. 1: It was not the case in the past that OEM disks were restricted to a specific OEM brand. It is with XP/Vista. 2: Since generic OEM disks can be sold with a Mobo/CPU/HDD and a few other items.. pick one up when you do a rebuild. 3: Don't buy a store bought major brand machine unless you don't plan on major upgrades or fixing it yourself 4: A generic OEM disk is designed to be used on any platform and combination of hardware, unlike the branded ones the bigger companies provide, which are limited to the specific hardware it's bought with (definitely true with XP, more so Vista) I once tried to reinstall my laptop 5,000 miles from home, and did it with a Toshiba branded disk, on another brand of lappy, it installed, but wouldn't take my licence code. US OEM disk take a UK code from another brand? HA! SOL! MS helped me unlock it enough to get it back up and running. XP let me do a full system rebuild, I went from single processor athlon to dual celerons (entirely different boards etc) with the usual precautions. (Which are: boot in safe mode, use hardware mangler to delete ALL hardware in sight, even stuff you're keeping, then reboot and let it re-detect) There is one problem that may occur with Vista that didn't with XP. The first time registration process with M$ that Vista will force you to do, will likely register the OEM code and serial number of your mobo as part of your registration file, linking that OEM serial with that board. That's untested as yet, so YMMV. But the same upgrade method MAY work with Vista..

This happens all the time.

[bitbiter]

I've worked in a repair shop for 12 years. When i see someone with an emachine and the blue Win xp OEM sticker on the back, if the Motherboard is bad, they have to buy a new copy of Windoze. The first time this happened, i spent hours on the phone with both emachine and MS. Because it is an OEM copy MS says that you have to deal with Emachine. Emachine says that it is a MS problem. For those of you that haven't seen this, and from reading the post non of you have, the number that you are suppose to give to ms for activation is alittle differant the last set of numbers is only 2 digits long. After doing alot of searching of the net, I found the problem. Emachine made a deal with MS to get windows at a discount, They tied the copy of windows to the motherboard. Some combination of the hardware included on the board is the key. What you needed to find was a board that was exactly like the original. Same chipset version, same built on vid, everything the same. Then you have a chance of it reactivating. Just another way that Emachine saves money and M$ screws the customer. SSDD........

OEM vs Upgrade vs Retail licensing

[stmfreak]

MSFT adds value into their OS versions through licensing. I don't know the specific prices, but a quick scan on newegg shows WindowOS licenses ranging from $100-$300. Aside from the value added through feature-flavors like Home, Pro, Server, whatnot, they consider OEM licenses at $100 to be single-instance installs for your motherboard-components configuration.

This is how Dell is able to sell PCs for $300--OEM licenses are the cheap, use it until it breaks, disposable operating system of our era.

If you wanted to be able to swap components and upgrade your box due to technology advancement or hardware failures then MSFT expects you to pay $300 for the full version of Windows which allows you to reinstall (with a limited number of activations) on new or significantly upgraded hardware by virtue of an install disk and key and non-hw-bound installer.

For those of us used to paying $0 for an operating system, these higher, "value added" amounts feel exorbitant. Bur for MBAs and stockholders, this looks like an awesome business model.

Not being a MSFT shareholder, when the cheap Dell PCs I bought a year ago start coughing up blood, my kids are getting introduced to the world of spare parts on ebay and linux.

Fair Use Microsoft

[58797A7A79]

IANAL, and from a legal perspective this would be a bad idea...but seriously, if I got my computer repaired, and could not get XP reactivated, even after calling Microsoft, I'd just crack the damn thing.

Windows phone activation required eMachines

[paulberezansky]

There was an article posted several months ago about how Microsoft now requires a phone activation for product IDs that are generated for their 10 biggest customers. Since you use an eMachine you fall in that category. This is a common thing with computer repair, a technician can take care of this for you as part of the system repair.

Windows XP has been out for a long time, this has always been an issue. I'm actually kind of interested in how this sort of thing will be handled in Vista.

I do this everyday in my job.

[Greg.Rodden]

You call up Microsoft's activation center when the internet activation won't let you activate the key (due to too many activations). You explain to them that it is in fact only installed on THIS ONE machine and that you had to REPLACE the motherboard as the old one died. They will issue you with your 42 digit confirmation code and BAM you are activated with your original key.

They are trying to tell you something...

[dcavanaugh]

It's not at all hard to get companies to tell you what they think of you as a customer and just how much they want your business.

When CDs hit $19 each, I realized they are simply too precious to be sold to ordinary consumers like me. For whatever reason, the music companies want the product to sit on store shelves instead. And so they do. If I attempt to interfere with their stockpiling of "shelfware", I will be punished with high prices until I learn my lesson.

Years ago, I moved from the suburbs to the city. My daily commute dropped from 30 miles round-trip to zero (walking 100 yards). The car insurance company didn't like that, not one little bit. They increased my premium over 100%, despite the fact that the car was driven 95% less, and sat parked every day about 100 yards away from where it used to be parked when I commuted from the suburbs. Silly me. So I moved back to the suburbs, even FARTHER from work than before, driving most of those extra miles in the city that was evidently so dangerous, and my premiums were LOWER than ever! I sure learned my lesson on that one!

When the government wants to discourage something, they tax it. The additional income that my wife could generate if she had a job would put us in a sky-high tax bracket. As an added bonus, we would have to pay child care expenses with after-tax money. The government really wants my wife to stay home. And so she does. We got the clue! We know what to do!

Forget the class-action suit. The central theme here is that you should take unilateral action in response to the various "incentives" that you encounter. Microsoft causing headaches with product [re]activation? That's because they want you to switch to OSX or Linux. Sounds to me like they are really determined to get you onboard with the "switch" program. The punishment will continue until you get the message. The problem isn't Microsoft, it's you.

Small claims court

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I'm posting anonymously, and this is post 300, this will probably never show up. Nevertheless, your best bet is to take Microsoft or eMachines to small claims court over (a) the purchase price of Vista (b) court costs. They have two options: Spend thousands of dollars on lawyers, or not show up. If they don't show up, you win by default, and you get what you needed. Small claims court is fast, cheap, and easy. They'll pay (and funny thing is, if they didn't, you'd probably get to repossess their stuff; a bailiff would waltz into corporate headquarters, pick up computers worth $150 for you, plus another couple hundred to cover his time, and waltz out).

Better advice would be to just get GNU/Linux, of course. Actually, the two aren't contradictory -- you're probably not obligated to buy Vista after they pay you.

Linux, Macs, and Windows

[falconwolf]

I'm not even a programmer, and I use Linux on a daily basis for everything, and I don't have a single Windows installation (or a Mac). It IS already good enough for people who are willing to accept the differences.

Though I've programmed, I'm not a programmer either. I was working on a programming degree, but in my second to last semester for the degree I had to dropout. While I've used Linux and Macs, I haven't done any programming on either one. Well I have done some bash scripts, only for a class I took years ago. I also took a class for Dreamweaver we used Macs for, however the rest of the classes I took all used Windows.

That said, most people panic because the names of the programs don't include "Microsoft" or "Adobe" in them... because it's different. They don't WANT to learn.

The past several years I've used Windows PCs 99% of the tyme, however for a long tyme I used mostly Macs. It's been years since I have but I've also used Linux and took a Unix class. My favorite computer/OS I've used though is the Amiga and if they were still being made I'd be using it. As for apps, er Adobe and Photoshop, the reason people use it is that there just isn't a photo editing app like it. Sure there are some editors out there that do some of them but none have the capability of Photoshop. For instance many say GIMP is good, however whereas PS works with 32 bit colour GIMP doesn't even work with 16 bits yet, and for a photographer that's a big selling point for PS. Then with apps like the Office suit people use it instead of others, if they know about them, is because they need to be sure a document they send to someone else can be read by that person. And MS made sure other programs couldn't read Office file formats. Heck MS even changed file formats between versions so that while new ones could read old ones the old ones couldn't read new formats.

Falcon

Re:Linux, Macs, and Windows

[aonaran]

um, even RAW files are only 12 bit, jpeg is 8bit. what camera are you using that you need 32bit?
if you need 16bit to accommodate the extra bits from your RAW files there is CinePaint (AKA filmGIMP).
CinePaint handles up to 32bit colour spaces.
http://www.cinepaint.org/

I agree that there is nothing like PS, but for most people gimp works as well as PS.
I recently mad the move from GIMP to PS Elements 4.0 (MAC) strictly for the RAW import so I understand where you are coming from, but that doesn't change that there are other packages that support higher bit colour spaces. Having never done a RAW conversion on a Linux machine I have no idea what you would use to import RAW files into CinePaint.

I wish I had the dough to buy CS2 (or CS3 when it's available) but Elements is all I can afford right now. I still use GIMP a lot because there are some things I'm used to in GIMP that I can't figure out how to do or even if they area possible in Elements. (layer mask for example)

viewed from a wider perspective

[Anonymous Coward]

[puts on make-believe market regulator hat]

Regulator:
If you don't like Microsoft's business practices, shop around for an alternative.

Microsoft assures us it's a free market with ample competition.

Oh, you can't edit your WindowsOnlyApp7.x documents under Linux or MacOS?
That's OK, since it's a free market you have the right to pay the developers to port it.
Oh, they don't want to?
What about a cleanroom implementation?
Ah, The original developers threatened to sue.
And the DMCA prevents you from developing your own anyway?
And your documents have to be in by next Monday or your business goes under.

Well, you can't blame us regulators if the operating system you chose isn't working out for you. You knew the rules when agreed to the licence. You had other choices. In the light of what happened, it seems like you made an unwise decision.

[takes off pretend market regulator hat]

While I am genuinely sympathetic to your plight, this is exactly why Microsoft and other not-quite-monopolistic businesses do so well.

We all need to be very careful about trading away our freedoms for a little convenience. Choose carefully.

Your Reward

[SilverPDA]

This is your reward for using product from the Evil Empire. Linux is always free and easier than fighting Microsoft.

Get that XP 9-in-1 corp CD from your shoebox.

[Anonymous Coward]

If I were in your situation, I'd be dusting the shoebox and reaching for that 9-in-1 corporate no-activation XP disk.

I typically build my own systems for home.

[falconwolf]

My motivation is not expense

It's no longer cheaper to build your own computer now, from the prices I've seen. I just wanted to upgrade the cpu/motherboard on my PC and together they cost as much as a whole new computer.

I want a system configured the way I want.

That is the best reasons, along with the satsifaction, to build a PC.

Falcon

Can I change or upgrade my hardware components?

[falconwolf]

all it takes is a phone call.

All? That's too much, there shouldn't be any requirement to change hardware, except technical requirements. Needing new drivers is one thing but it's totally different to need to re-Activate.

Falcon

Just tell them you reinstalled

[madshot]

When you call the number to activate Windows just tell them you had to reinstall your OS. Don't tell them why and you won't have any problems.

Well, maybe...

[freeze128]

My bank's ATMs consist of a pile of money and a clipboard, but someone stole the clipboard.

...And the money.

All things considered, it's a minor inconvenience

[falconwolf]

There shouldn't be ANY inconvenience!!! We're supposed to be innocent before proven guilty! And computers are supposed to improve and make life more not less convenient, easier not harder.

Falcon

Gateway?

[falconwolf]

eMachines are made cheap, yeah (tho somewhat better now that they're owned by Gateway)

eMachines are better now that Gateway owns them? They must of been real sh**s then. I've bought two PCs from Gateway. On the first one I had to have both the motherboard and the hdd replaced before a year was over. A few months after I got it it started acting weird, so I called tech support and they had me go through a number of tests before they said the hdd needed to be replaced. That wasn't too bad as two days later I got the new hdd. Then two weeks before I had a year I started having trouble again. This tyme tech support aranged to have a box dropped off the following day for me to send it into to be repaired. A week later I called back and was told the motherboard had to be replaced, however they were out of them and had to wait for new ones to come in. Another week goes by when I call again. They said it had been shipped back, and was just returned, but I didn't have it. After going back and forth between them and the shipper Gateway decided to send a new one, unfortunately they were short on parts again, so I had to wait more. Finally a month after I sent my PC in I got the replacement. On my second Gateway, a laptop, the LCD cracked and when I called tech support they said they don't cover LCDs, so I asked how much it would cost to have it replaced. They gave me a price range, from $300 to $1200, but not an exact amount. So fuck them!

I find it's vastly better to build my own. I get a far better machine for less money, AND it's far more upgradeable.

BYO is better in that you get to pick what components you use, but it's not cheaper. This was true years ago however not anymore. Several months ago I went out pricing parts to upgrade my PC and just the cpu/motherboard combo was about what a new system cost, admittedly a cheap one. Adding in all the other things I would of needed to replace, nic, ram, sound, and video and it would of cost me more to upgrade my system than it cost to buy a new one. So I ended up buying a new system, with Linux preinstalled.

Falcon

Re:Gateway?

[Reziac]

Yeah, the older eMachines were made about as flimsy as a PC can be without collapsing under its own weight. The motherboards were reputedly Asus seconds (now they're Intels, same as in Gateways, but probably still seconds). Minimal everything, weird-assed tiny PSUs, no real drive bays, etc, etc.

They've improved somewhat, tho. I've got a post-GW-eMachine P4 that isn't bad for a cheapie (and fine for free, which is what it cost me), and its chassis is (are you sitting down?) evidently of Antec manufacture, or a real close copy. It's actually rather nice inside. I could hardly believe my eyes!

Conversely my neighbour has one from just before the GW acquisition, and it's definitely made a lot cheaper.. case is real flimsy.. worse, it's only a couple months older than mine, but its mobo has already failed -- at 2 years old.

If a CPU/mobo combo was going to cost you as much as a whole new OEM machine, you need to shop somewhere else. Normal price range for a combo is around 1/3rd the price of an equivalent OEM system.

But even if nominally identical, in my experience the clone part will always outlive the same component from an OEM system. This is notably so with motherboards -- the single component *most* likely to fail in an OEM machine, followed by the PSU. In well-made clones, mobo and PSU almost never fail except from outright abuse.

Several problems with OEMs: 1) they run hot relative to what's inside 'em, 2) they use minimal PSUs, which I suspect also stresses stuff (and probably explains the high mobo death rate), and 3) they use a lot of seconds. IMO they're *designed* to have no more than a 3 year lifespan... after all, if they lasted like an average clone, they'd only need replacing when they reached the end of their upgrade paths, and almost never because of system failure.

As to the ridiculous repair quotes -- I needed a CPU fan bracket for the aforementioned eMachine. That's a $4 part, but you can't buy it. However, Gateway said they'd be happy to "repair" the system -- for $178 plus r/t shipping (I shit you not, that was their price -- for a $4 part and 2 minutes labour). So I did a little surgery on a standard bracket and made it fit, and fuck Gateway indeed!!

upgrade or replace computer

[falconwolf]

If a CPU/mobo combo was going to cost you as much as a whole new OEM machine, you need to shop somewhere else. Normal price range for a combo is around 1/3rd the price of an equivalent OEM system.

I don't recall what CPU/mobos I looked at but the mobos were about $100, towards the lower end in cost and a cpu $150, again lower end. My new PC cost $250 and it had a $50 mailin rebate. Now I did get more RAM, it only came with 128 MB, and a second hdd as the one it came with was only 40GB. I got 1GB ram for $100 and a 750GB hdd for $300. So the total cost was $650. Unfortunately it's only optical drive was a cd, so I've been looking for a dvd. However I haven't found a dl dvd that is compatible with linux, which was preinstalled. I'd also like to add firewire 800. As I plan on getting a Macbook Pro I figure I can forgo these though.

Oh as for where I looked, I don't know of good places to get electrical/electronic parts around here so I went to Best Buy, CompUSA, Microcenter, and a few other chains. I wish I knew of someplace like Skycraft. I used to go there, brick and mortor store, to look for components and surplus equipment.

Falcon

Re:upgrade or replace computer

[Reziac]

Problem is, if you buy a $250 system, you're getting a $40 motherboard at best (that's what the lowest-end mobos usually cost), and a $19 power supply, so the foundation is already weak. It's probably good enough if you only expect about 3 years worth of service from it and don't plan to upgrade... but as you already found, you had to pay more to upgrade it to a reasonable level than it would have cost to start with a better system, which in turn would have better longevity and a longer upgrade path.

WorstBuy and similar national megastore chains are hideously expensive for components. As a typical example, our local BestBuy has the LiteOn DL DVD burner for about $140. Half a mile away, PC Club (a clone dealer that grew into a chain) has the identical unit for $45 (and I got my last two for about $30 each, on weekend specials).

If you're comfy with mail-order, here are the outfits I use:

pcclub.com -- major components. I've known 'em since they were a single tiny local store.
newegg.com -- major components. Originated as the old Egghead B&M chain.
geeks.com -- good for last year's models, and reliable, but be sure you know your prices and specs before you buy.
cablenbits.com -- all the small/odd stuff at good prices. Good people, local; I've been using 'em since 1995.
rogerssystems.com -- cable and networking stuff, a little pricier on some stuff but always have it all. Local outfit, known 'em since they were tiny.

My recommendation when BIY'ing is to start with the best motherboard you can afford (and NO ONBOARD VIDEO!), last year's CPU for that board (saves a lot of money and loses very little in performance), a good solid PSU and roomy case, then if you must skimp, do so on components that are easily added/upgraded later, like video card. That way you have a solid foundation that will give you years of trouble-free service, and can be substantially upgraded in the future, at relatively little cost. For the sake of reliability, I stick to Western Digital HDs, LiteOn opticals, and I prefer Matrox video cards for their dead-solid stability, but if you're a gamer you'd probably want NVidia. I don't like ATI's drivers. I haven't found that memory brand makes any real difference -- I use a lot of salvaged memory of unknown provenance, with zero problems. I only buy Intel CPUs and Intel chipsets, because of their vastly better stability (for both CPU and the matching mobos -- some of the VIA chipsets for AMD really stink).

Back to OEMs...

I'm the hardware guru for the local user group, and part of my job is vetting and renovating donated machines. So I see a lot of random middle-aged OEM systems. Gateways are the most standard, most upgradeable, and least likely to be sick or dead, tho sometimes have odd quirks. HPs are usually okay as they are, and are seldom dead, but are tough to upgrade or fix. eMachines are easy to upgrade and fix, tho more likely to be outright dead. I've yet to see a Dell, Compaq, IBM, or Micron that didn't have serious to fatal issues. The only CompUSA-branded PC I've had my hands in was a rebadged bottom-end Dell, and ran at about half the speed you'd expect from an equivalent clone. As a group, OEM systems' performance sucks compared to clones.

I don't like Mac hardware either... have found that under the hood, a Mac is equivalent to a cheap OEM PC, even tho it looks prettier on the outside. Laptops are another matter, I think Apple does better there than most, tho laptops aren't really my area of expertise so here I'm speaking more from impressions than from getting my hands dirty.

I'm not really a linux person... is there not yet ANY support for DL DVD writers, or just a limited selection? -- As noted I use LiteOn optical drives, I have about a dozen in service and no problems with any of 'em. Several have cranked out disks up to 4 hours at a crack, with zero coasters. When I've messed with linux it has recognised these drives, tho I've not tried to write any disks with it.

Re:upgrade or replace computer

[falconwolf]

Problem is, if you buy a $250 system, you're getting a $40 motherboard at best (that's what the lowest-end mobos usually cost), and a $19 power supply, so the foundation is already weak. It's probably good enough if you only expect about 3 years worth of service from it and don't plan to upgrade...

Because I'm on disability and don't work, I have to watch how much I spend. I simply couldn't afford to pay several hundred dollars for a computer. Well I might of been able to but I was also waiting for Apple to release the Macbook Pro with the Core 2 Duo cpu which I then planned on getting.

as you already found, you had to pay more to upgrade it to a reasonable level than it would have cost to start with a better system, which in turn would have better longevity and a longer upgrade path.

The computer the new system replaces isn't exactly a cheap no name brand, it's an HP Pavillion. In the first year I had to have the hdd and motherboard replaced. Since then I've had to replace the ram twice.

WorstBuy and similar national megastore chains are hideously expensive for components.

I've bought a couple of hdds from Best Buy, and a second video card for a dual monitor setup, but that's it for components. However I did get my HP there, with an extended warranty which came in handy. I would like to support small local shoppes however I don't know of any around where I live.

If you're comfy with mail-order,

I'm not. I'd rather support local businesses, but also I want a brick and mortor location I can go to for help if I need it.

Gateways are the most standard, most upgradeable, and least likely to be sick or dead, tho sometimes have odd quirks. HPs are usually okay as they are, and are seldom dead, but are tough to upgrade or fix.

I first tried Gateway, in part because it was supposed to be a good brand but also because they had just bought Amiga and I loved Amigas. Unfortunately they didn't do anything with the Amiga and as far as I'm concerned the brand isn't good. That first pc, a laptop, had the hdd and motherboard die the first year I owned it. I was without the laptop for 4 weeks when the mb died. Tech support had a box to ship it into the repair center the dropped off the following day, but then after a week because they were a part short it took another week for the part to come in. Two weeks after shipping it to them I called back to see what was up and they told me it had just been dropped off by the shipper. Between calls to both Gateway and the shipper Gateway decided to send a new laptop as a replacement. Ok, so I wait a week, call back and am again told they are short a part. Finally 4 weeks after sending the old one in for repairs I go tthe replacement. And I hadn't even had it a year.

With the trouble from Gateway I switched to HP for a new pc. It however was no better, in the first year both the hdd and motherboard had to be replaced just as happened with the Gateway. I ordered and got the Gateway in December 1997 and replaced it with the HP in 2001. Now the Gateway wasn't my first computer, the first computer I bought was a used Mac SE 30 in 1992. It finally died when the floppy disk drive died in 2000. It lasted 8 years versus 4 years for the Gateway, and the only problem I had with the Mac, other than the fdd failing was that it was not expandable. The Gateway lasted half as long and gave me problem almost from the start.

I don't like Mac hardware either... have found that under the hood, a Mac is equivalent to a cheap OEM PC, even tho it looks prettier on the outside.

Especially since the switch to Intels, most of the components are used in PCs as well. However it seems Apple takes more deligence in quality control than most PC manufacturers. Sure there are problem however from what I've seen Macs last longer than PCs. Now with the switch to Intels that's going to change, Apple can no longer take as much tyme designing computers as they used

Re:upgrade or replace computer

[Reziac]

...isn't exactly a cheap no name brand, it's an HP Pavillion. In the first year I had to have the hdd and motherboard replaced. Since then I've had to replace the ram twice.

And here I'm sitting in front of a clone that started life 13 years ago... has had two major upgrades, but the only component that ever failed was the original 2x CDROM (door belt broke at 6 yrs old), and the original mobo got killed by a keyboard short. I've got a dozen more clones with like longevity and reliability... and most were built from salvaged parts, at little or no cost.

Multiple component failures like you describe are usually not that component, but rather, secondary to a bad power supply. Over time, marginal voltage or microspikes will damage chips and fill a HD full of bad spots. -- In my experience, in an OEM machine the single component most likely to fail is the PSU, followed by the motherboard. IMO the *real* reason OEM mobos fail so often is a direct result of the fact that OEMs invariably use the most minimal PSU they can get away with. (Conversely, clone mobos very seldom fail.)

I've heard nothing good about Gateway laptops, but LIS laptops are not my area of expertise. My remarks were all about desktop systems.

I started using LiteOn optical drives about 6 years ago; tried one because several clone dealers that I trust told me they never had to do warranty replacements on them. Now I've got about a dozen assorted LiteOn drives, none have failed, and both readers and writers have done multiple marathon sessions. -- My Plextor CDRW is just as reliable, but cost 3x as much.

In my experience LiteOns put way less drag on the system (burning is CPU-intensive, and normally you need at least a P2-300 to avoid burning coasters -- but a LiteOn CDRW works fine on my old P233), they run relatively quiet and cool (unlike my Plextor which runs hot, and I've had 3 Yamahas literally cook themselves to death), and I've yet to see one burn a coaster that was the drive's fault (I get maybe one bad burn per 100 disks, invariably because Nero just came to a halt for no reason). And they do pretty well at extracting data from damaged disks.

I know there have been a lot of drive failures in the LiteOn 5005 PVR units, but I'm suspicious that those are built with outsourced drives, or ship with bad firmware, or something like that. Some people have replaced the original burner with off-the-shelf LiteOn DVD-RWs, and their problems went away.

BTW if you're curious about my wild assortment of computers, most of 'em are listed here: http://home.earthlink.net/~rividh/pc/the_borg.htm

Qaba was built entirely from other folks' trash; the case and mobo are all that's left of the original eMachine. Tinker (the Dell) was given to me cuz original owner couldn't get it to stop crashing; I downgraded the CPU, and the problem went away. Seems Dell used a mobo that was two years older tech than the CPU, and they didn't like each other much. Xorro (the Compaq) was a castoff; it's reliable enough, but the design is hideous and the hardware is hell to work on. The Mac fell on my head; it runs okay, but feels unloved (and WTF is with the sub-normal capacity DVD-RAM drive?!) Dink, Gremlin, and Argo are my everyday machines that run 24/7/365.

Wishing you better luck henceforth with all your computers, of any species!

What about if your PC goes bang...

[pmkelly]

...and you have to rebuild it with several components? The OS is still being used on one system by the same user, just in a different set up. I have been thinking about using a copy of XP Pro on a Home system, where the Pro pc is now converted to Centos - where would I stand on that - my original, paid for software, (planned to be) used only on one PC!

Go somewhere else

[bill_mcgonigle]

If MS as a reason to belive you have comment a crime, they can go to the authorities. If the Authorities have some proof or belief you committed a crime, they can approach and you can DEFEND your innocence.

Everything you say is true - but that's how Microsoft does business. If you don't like their business practices, do business with somebody else. I have a half dozen computers here, and none of the OS's, commercial and open source, need activation. I have a Windows disc somewhere...

A root cause of piracy?

[HackerAce]

It is this type of idiocy that drives persons to pirate a copy of Windows. Some might think, "Heck, I already bought my copy of Windows what are they going to do sue me?" Having once dipped into the Dark Side is it now hard to avoid future temptation?

Amazing what you can get used to.

[smammon]

Amazing what you can get used to. Regardless of ease - WTF should you have to call them at all? It's like the junk cars most Americans drive. I had 3 Asian imports that never had problems - including one I put almost 200k miles on in two years. Then I got my first American piece of crap. In the shop every other month. No one I work with understands why I'm dissatisfied.

I bet you were one of the first to pony up $400 for the "upgrade" too. Moron.

Exact Same

[greedyturtle]

I work at a small computer shop, and have literally gone through the exact same problem, it went a bit like this:

"Recently, I have been bit by a computer repair on an e-Machines computer that involved a system board (and chip) replacement. Though this was strictly a repair, not an upgrade, neither MS or e-Machines will provide for activation of the system."

Now, I have activated XP numerous times and have only had a problem with this specific e-Machine instance. I personally believe that there's some issue with how e-Machine purchases it's licenses. (I have never had an issue with Dell or HP or Sony et al.) I was told by MS to call e-Machines and get a replacement key. Obviously e-Machines was useless.

Definitely though be careful how you speak to them on the phone! I try to treat it like it's my first time calling them ever. Don't answer any questions that you haven't been asked etc.

I am so glad I dropped MS years ago.

[jotaeleemeese]

This kind of histories make it worth it to endure the very few and diminishing inconveniences of running Linux on my computers.

camera bit depth

[falconwolf]

um, even RAW files are only 12 bit, jpeg is 8bit. what camera are you using that you need 32bit?

While many digital cameras use 12 bits per colour, some use 14 and a few use 16 according to an article in current edition, Jan/Feb 2007, of Digital Photo Pro . I'd bet more and more will use 16 bit colour depths with medium format digital backs having even more depth. I don't currently have a digital camera, but I'd like to get one like Canon's EOS 1Ds Mark II. I just read where it's colour bit depth is only 12 bits. However I also would like to get a medium format camera, perhaps a 645 maybe from Mamiya, a Hasselblad, or a Sigma.

if you need 16bit to accommodate the extra bits from your RAW files there is CinePaint (AKA filmGIMP).
CinePaint handles up to 32bit colour spaces.
http://www.cinepaint.org/ [cinepaint.org]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

I agree that there is nothing like PS, but for most people gimp works as well as PS. I recently mad the move from GIMP to PS Elements 4.0 (MAC) strictly for the RAW import so I understand where you are coming from, but that doesn't change that there are other packages that support higher bit colour spaces. Having never done a RAW conversion on a Linux machine I have no idea what you would use to import RAW files into CinePaint.

I'm not exactly the average person that uses cameras, in high school I took a class in photography learning how to use cameras and work in darkrooms. Because of this and I had a 35mm slr when I was in the army I was my unit's unoffical photographer. My commanding officer would give me film to shoot some photos whenever we went out into the field or when we were training. We had an arts and crafts center on post where I'd develop, make enlargements, of photos for those in my unit. Then in college I took photography as an elective. While it's been years since I have worked in a darkroom I plan on joining a local photography association, IFP Minnesota, that has photography classes and darkrooms members can use. I'm hoping they can help me work as a photographer, I'm on disability and don't work now. As for what OS I'll use, I'm typing this on a Windows PC, however because it's old I recently got a tower PC with Linux preinstalled and I'm getting a Macbook Pro for a laptop.

I wish I had the dough to buy CS2 (or CS3 when it's available) but Elements is all I can afford right now. I still use GIMP a lot because there are some things I'm used to in GIMP that I can't figure out how to do or even if they area possible in Elements. (layer mask for example)

I know what you mean, I wish I could afford CS3 myself. I'm hoping I'll be able to find work quickly as a photographer and can then afford it. However something I thought of which may help you if you want to get CS3, is to find and buy an older version of Photoshop. Around here a few tymes a year we have computer shows wherein booths sale older versions of software with prices dramatically lowered. Then Adobe sales upgrade versions for a lot less than full versions, between the costs of an old version and the new one, this may be cheaper than the full version. You may even be able to find old versions in some stores, though I haven't looked specifically for Photoshop but some of the stores around here have a bin or shelf with outdated software for sale at reduced prices.

Again, thanks for the info on Cinepaint, I'll see how well it works.

Falcon

buying software

[falconwolf]

As for what apps are used, other than games most people don't install apps they've bought, they use the apps that are installed for them.

Dude...wtf do you mean? If you bother to buy some piece of software you're going to install it.

I misspoke, what I meant to say is that many people don't go out to buy software seperately, they try to get a computer with the software already installed. Look at how many retailers sale computers with software bundles already installed. Now of course this ignores gamers who do buy games to install.

Falcon

Consider all options?

[Baloo Ursidae]

Have you considered perhaps making this the straw that broke the camel's back and say "Goodbye, Microsoft" already?

Of course MS will activate it...

[richy freeway]

I do this at least 10 times a week. Just ring them up and they'll activate it, it has *NEVER* failed for me. Even on an e-machine, which we see a HELL of a lot of. Motherboard + PSU's fail regularly on them.