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Ballmer Suggests Linux Distros Will Soon Have to Pay Up
An anonymous reader writes "Via Groklaw comes comments from Microsoft's Steve Ballmer at a UK event, in which the company once again threatens Linux distributions that haven't signed up with their program. '"People who use Red Hat, at least with respect to our intellectual property, in a sense have an obligation to compensate us," Ballmer said last week ... Ballmer praised Novell at the UK event for valuing intellectual property, and suggested that open source vendors will be forced to strike similar deals with other patent holders. He predicted that firms like Eolas will soon come after open source vendors or users. Microsoft paid $521m to settle a patent claim by Eolas in August.'"
I couldn't tell from the article, but which intellectual property is MS saying open source solutions are infringing on? Or am I misunderstanding the issue?
Bark less. Wag more.
It seems that Microsoft is becoming more and more like a little kid every day. I just don't understand how in any normal world they can stay in business. All they do is spit out the same FUD every chance they get. It's like the boy who called wolf.
That which does not kill me only postpones the inevitable.
I use Linux, in part because I didn't want to give you any money anymore, so could you please explain to me why you think I owe you money?
Because I generally don't give money to someone, simply because they tell me I should. I know, it's insane, but I need a reason...
09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63
What intellectual property was this again?
Eolas actually told them what patent they were supposedly infringing.
Anyway, let it be said *again*. If you pay Microsoft, or anyone, for a license to "unspecified patents" then you are an *idiot* and I hope you get sued by your share holders.
How we know is more important than what we know.
The real life equivalent of the AI meeting with the player every turn to say "we demand tribute for our patience" and demanding gold and technology. Too bad I can't have my usual response: a full-out attack, leaving their names to the annals of history! muahaha!
I don't play too much CivII, do I?
Anyone else think the comments just weren't rendering right before they turned off ABP and saw ads?
Iirc, Microsoft has yet to fully, or even partially disclsoe their IP holdings in regards to open source. Merely threatening with.. something. I also tend to wonder what Eolas claims regarding IE activeX controls has to do with open source vendors.
Suddenly, I like Ballmer a little less. Possibly, the Linux foundation's www.patentscommon.org will harness those feelings; it is after all supported by HP, Ericsson, Nokia, Novell, IBM, RedHat, and ... Microsoft... WTF?!
come get us. with something other than empty threats of course.
Read radical news here
They keep throwing Novell's name around. Novell has publicly denounced MS' claims about this. http://en.opensuse.org/FAQ:Novell-MS
Microsoft is unlikely to enforce it's patents, but what should scare us are the other Patent Houses where their business model is based on litigation. They are the dangerous ones...
Dominant Meme
My guess is that any of Microsoft's patents could be coded-around trivially - therefore their patents, once revealed, have no value. Their only value is as a bargaining tool (cudgel).
SURELY NOT!!!!!
Well, I suppose it's time to trot out the old standby articles for this of Linus demanding proof. Torvalds on Microsoft I really don't want to hate Microsoft, or any other company really. I just for once wish that companies would treat people (employees, customers, competitors, etc) with respect. It is still possible to do business and battle with someone and respect them at the same time. This seems to be a lost art for many.
"First they ignore you,
then they laugh at you,
then they fight you,
then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi
I see we're on stage three now.
Well not software patents in the UK.... they are supposed to be non enforcible.
...so would it be possible for Microsoft to settle/lose a non-novel and obvious patent case just so that it would set precedent? (One that would hurt them a little but OSS a LOT)
If this could be done, wouldn't it validate the patent and allow the plaintiff to then go after Open Source Software? It would be a bit like the whole SCO fiasco again but only with the power of the courts behind them.
Thank goodness that in this enlightened age, no-one would collude and pull off something like that.
A hundred and twenty characters ought to be enough for anyone...
And hear him yourself: http://www.mydeo.com/videorequest.asp?XID=48644&CID=133678
Isn't there a law to force Ballmer to put up or shut up? Is it possible to go to court to have him clear the air instead of damaging Linux's progress? lawyers please clarify.
Shouldn't some of the linux vendors sue microsoft for libel?
If they're making such threats, shouldn't they be required to prove them, and subsequently to pursue their rights (if any) in the matter?
I'm sure if a large company made such threats and claims against microsoft products they would try to do something about it...
Chances are microsoft has little or no claim, and they know if they pursued it they'd get little or no money, the offending code (if any) would be replaced and linux would go on but with the patent threat now lifted. Someone should force their hand by suing them for libel.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
via Groklaw, Ballmer said, "We've spent a lot of money licensing patents, when people come to us and say, "Hey, this commercial piece of software violates our patent, our intellectual property, we'll either get a court judgment or we'll pay a big check." ------------- The key concept in that statement is Litigation. That seems to be the M$ business model. It's amazing how similar M$ and $CO are isn't? Makes you wonder where $CO got the idea to sue the Linux community in the first place and we've all seen how well that turned out.
I can't believe the money involved in these "IP" settlements. Millions of dollars for things like "embedded content in a webpage". MS is at the mercy of patent trolls like everybody else, so MS is using the same gorilla tactics to protect their interests. They had to pay $500 million in a previous settlement.. that's half a billion dollars, for infringing on some supposed IP. Where do they get these numbers from? As long as there's a payoff for stupid patents, we're going to see FUD from MS and others.
Same old story. Show us the patents so the OSS community can rewrite a better version of the alleged infringed code, and knock off this FUD patent Bull Sht.
Shameless plug alert: Game server control panel
Does Microsoft expose itself to a Slander of Title, or just plain Slander, lawsuit by making the claims?
How about Unfair Trade Practices?
Or can't RedHat sue for a declaratory judgment that it's *not* violating any MS patents, and having the claims made explicit during discovery?
Hooo, ~scary~ So what? Eolas is coming for linux users? Weren't we already waiting for Microsoft? What next? Santa Claus maybe? Or a wing of flying chairs? The two only things he is sucessfully discrediting is Microsoft and the distros wich ranked with him (I feel like sorry for Suse to be associated with this man).
Is there any way we can really sock Microsoft in the Jaw on this? Like, can an organization or Alliance of some kind pre-emptively sue MS to say "You cannot repeatedly make threats that we infringe on your whatever simply because you want to scare people?
Oh, yeah... and... you must be new here.
As soon as Microsoft pay's up to Xerox for windows. BSD for the Tcp/IP stack. Berkley for nslookup.exe.
and so on and so on. MOST of microsofts products are based on others Intellectual property and violates at least 60-80 patents somewhere.
Hey microsoft. as soo as you are clean I'll come clean. No, I dont consider clean your legal wiggling bullcrap. 100% legit.
as soon as they pay up
I always thought that you can copy a linux CD infinitive times with 0 extra cost.
If that still applies then one can copy the novel cd into their own distribution.
If not, this is a novel feature of Novel linux and should be advertised more!
They whole point is which patents? Be specific. Excactly what code is it that Linux has incorporated that belongs to M$.
Like it has been said earlier, the community would be more then happy to remove it once we know what it is! (especially given M$'s record on quality, it's code that probably needs to be replaced anyway)
Time to renew the Sue Me First wiki?
http://digitaltippingpoint.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sue_me_first%2C_microsoft
Goodbye Slashdot. You've changed.
Microsoft has been doing this for years. Making idol threats to anyone who has an idea that could potentially cost them profit. This is only happening more now because they realize like I and many others that Windows is a huge pile of crap in a fancy package. The idea of people and companies migrating to linux scares them because it means that they would have to charge less for their os. Also because companie like google and IBM are challenging their office by offering cheaper solutions all they have left to cling onto is their worthless "patents"(whichever one they choose to exploit this time).
Windows on a mac is Windows under Supervision. - Frank Soltis(Chief Scientist/Designer of AS400)
"We're in discussions with major players in the Linux world and are working on a plan to resolve the '906 patent issue with the entire Linux community"
"The solution will be supportive of the open-source community"
Michael Doyle Eolas Founder Jan 2004
davecb5620@gmail.com
but which intellectual property is MS saying open source solutions are infringing on?
Let's make it simple.. Take a lot of code and patent a few ideas. Someone else does the same. In review as your code gets complicated, you may very well have used someone else's IP in your implimentation. Often in a patent dispute regarding code, the countersuit results in a cross license agreement. IBM and others have war chests full of patents to protect FOSS against attacks.
MS hints at an attack as part of the FUD campaign. If they launch a real attack, the code of Windows will be put on the operating table for dissection for infringements. See any problems with this? Just to show an easy to see example, Microsoft was sued over the use of a trash can in Windows. That is why they have a recycle bin. Apple owns the trash can.
Now look at a copy of Ubuntu. It has a little box with a recycle logo in view right on the desktop. They call it the Trash. Who can sue? Apple, Microsoft? If Microsoft sues, guess what happens to tabbed browsing in IE7. This is something showing on the surface. Start digging into functionality and the fight could get ugly for Microsoft. The bigger the code, the bigger the possiblilty of infringment of someone else's pattent. The code doesn't get much bigger than Vista for the desktop.
Can you say HUGE BULLSEYE? The noise is just noise. It is intended to slow down the implimentation and keep obvious duplication of features to a minimum by the competition by raising the question of costly litigation. It's just the ongoing FUD campaign.
Prior art and other discoveries in a court battle could be very damaging to many of Microsoft's patents. If they don't name them, they can't be shot down.
The truth shall set you free!
Dear Microsoft, I perceive your patent threats as a monopoly's attempt to use a broken patent legal system to eradicate competitors.
SCO went into bankruptcy. You will, too, someday.
At this point it really feels like there's just rattling empty threats and Mr. Ballmer lost of few more of his marbles.
BTW: Software patents are not enforcable in the EU.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
yes, but telling the community would allow them to make changes and no longer infringed upon them and remove the ability to spread FUD.
I dont think he is talking about code. He is talking about patents.
MS needs linux to show there is something competing against them. They also need to have linux play well with their products to keep their corporate customers happy. I think ballmer's BS is bad for MS.
btw using "M$" makes ppl look like tools to those who are not religious fan boys. I realize there are alot of them here but still...
in other words: "now that the OIN (open invention network) shut our big mouth http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/05/1456209 , we have no other possibility to spread FUD anymore, than saying that OTHERS might sue Linux vendors and users..."
The MAFIAA is a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes
Let's not forget that in those countries where the Supreme court have not yet ruled against the stupidity of software patents; Microsoft are target number 1.
Do Microsoft still indemnify their customers against patent claims up to the value of any software licenses? Doesn't this mean that all Microsoft customers have the same liability as linux users, less the value of any licenses? What about Microsoft's undisclosed balance sheet liability with respect to this indemnification? I'm sure they disclosed this to the SEC as is their fiscal duty? Do Microsoft even have the cash reserves to cover a claim up to the total value of their software sales for the last decade?
I'm sick of Ballmers fuck-ugly poker face, it's time the other major tech companies start calling his hand. Software patents are invalid in the EU, can Ballmer give us examples of where he alleges MSFT copyright, trade secrets (because we have loads in these in software) or trademarks have been violated? Guess not, what an asshole!
'"People who use Red Hat, at least with respect to our intellectual property, in a sense have an obligation to compensate us,"
The phrase your looking for is "Tortuous interference in business"
I wonder if Microsoft is going to repeat SCO history, that is make claims then go bankrupt. They may have a lot of money now, but the as the saying goes, it is a lot easer to spend money then to earn them. This also applies to companies, even the largest and richest onces (at the moment).
What has happened, is that M$ has been issued a patent on bugs in software. Hence, almost all software infringes on M$ IP.
What it points out is that for the giant in Redmond, business is business, and the truth doesn't matter. Microsoft also has a nickname (Microsloth) for much of their own IP -- it's been purchased, code pirated (my term for their clone products which have triggered numerous lawsuits most settled out of court against M$ to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars) -- but a deserved sharklike reputation for FUD.
Note to the pointy haired bosses: Ignore the bald man in the M$ suit from Redmond -- chances are that if his lips are moving, he's being shifty with the truth to try and get your money. Cover your wallet and walk away quickly.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
It's just another empty threat, because if M$ sued, they would open themselves up to copyright violations/liabilities exceeding their net worth. I.E. Vis-a-vee their Linux lab activities and their employees distribution of 50+ Linux Varients. (Using their linux actiities to improve M$ products, I.E. Copyright violations for PROFIT).
Now, some lawyers may want to argue this point.. But, does M$ really think it can prevail in all of the different jurisdictions around the globe? I doubt it.
Then there are other patent holders who hold a vested interest in Linux.. Do you really think they'll sit still while M$ attacks the code which enables their products.
The furball of lawsuits would probably result in an SCO outcome for M$, broke, deranged, hiding from their NEW creditors in bankruptcy court. Note: BC doesn't work all that well for multinationals as foreign courts will just seize their offshore assets.
It will be interesting to see their next step.
Phase 1 was "state the fact about patent infringement".
Phase 2 is now "explain that since the VENDOR wont pay for patents, then the customers will be on the line" Phase 3 ???
Microsoft will eventually HAVE to file a suit or someone will file a suit against them for scare tactics of some sort. I'm sure the Microsoft lawyers understand this, which means they must have a phase 3 in mind. Who will be the first target? And in which court?
Sometimes I think Microsoft can't lose this battle. If their first suit really tests patent law and then win...well then they start the major money collection, and Linux suffers a hit for it's users having legitimate concerns of legality. However if the patent claims are denied...the Microsoft basically has the green light to use the patents owned by countless others. Because of their size and bankroll, they can implement such technologies much quicker than most companies, and they will pull ahead on many fronts.
Darl McBride has a long history of ridiculous litigation. It's nice to try to tie connections up in a nice neat theory but we can't realy blame Darl for driving SCO at high speed into the brick wall that is IBM. Helping after the fact does not mean it was all their idea.
Ballmer is just the example most visable to us of a businessman using stupid and counterproductive intellectual property laws as a weapon against his competators.
Why would they do that ? They went after Microsoft because Microsoft could actually afford to pay.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
or Bush talking about "US leadership" on the global warming issue..
SURELY NOT!!!!!
He predicted that firms like Eolas will soon come after open source vendors or users. Microsoft paid $521m to settle a patent claim by Eolas in August.
Now I understand why after MS almost won, they paid 512 million to Eolas.
During the case, Eolas said they're not going after open source software. But now, Microsoft predicts different things. Interesting how they know.
I clearly remember they settled with another patent troll, while they made a deal with them: MS pays so the troll can go after MS' competitors (on the same patent). If the troll knocks the competitors out, MS gets their money back. Otherwise they keep them.
In fact I remember now: it was the joystick vibration patent.
I wouldn't be surprised of MS and Eolas had a cute little talk after which Eolas submitted to be Microsoft's bitch in the "War against Linux" if Eolas gets their money.
Now I like Microsoft, but when I sense dirty tricks made able just the sheer amount of money they can afford to throw away, it pisses me off.
If I could get an itemized receipt.
Yep. Thanks for your comments. I'm Still getting a handle on posting as evidenced by the lousy formating of my post. I didn't notice it before but I suppose you format with html. I'll do better in the future.
later
I'm thinking really hard for a single place that MS were innovators. I think I've worked it out - while they've never had an innovative concept in their existence absorbed many software houses along the way that were true innovators. Ballmer seems to be trying to pull some bizarro world magic trick off where he tells everyone there's something up his sleeve then waits for the applause. It's terribly confusing. I call it ConFUD.
He predicted that firms like Eolas will soon come after open source vendors or users. Microsoft paid $521m to settle a patent claim by Eolas in August.
Sounds like maybe MS lawyers are whispering in Eolas' ear to goad them into being the next SCO...
Why sue your competition and waste money on legal fees when you can con others to do it for you.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
No, not because of linux on the desktop, not even of linux on the server. What it is scared of that with 95% of the desktop it still does NOT control the market. Oh it controls consumers but consumers are fickle. Consumers will buy whatever is cool at the moment. iPhone? Not MS software. iPod not MS software. Mobile phones not MS software. Media centers not MS software. Cars not MS software. Biggest selling console not MS software.
MS has had very little success getting its software onto something else then the PC despite the fact that many would claim that to Joe Public computing IS microsoft. Just how then do you explain that so few choose their phone to have a windows version? Why does the Zune not sell?
And all the while that pesky opensource remains there, undefeated, unwilling to adopt, making small gains perhaps but never just giving up like it is supposed too.
No linux on the desktop ain't going to happen anytime soon, but that is not what MS is really afraid off, it doesn't fear that it is going to loose 95% of the desktop market, but that that market itself will stop growing or even shrink.
Is that likely? Don't matter, what matters is what MS thinks. They been pushing the end of the desktop of ages (and then claiming it will outlive everything) so they worry when they don't see themselves being the software supplier of choice in this new market.
Take google, is google ran its servers on windows as it should (in MS view) do you really think Ballmer would be throwing any chairs? No, it is the realisation that MS one way or another is NOT making a penny out of google (well a few thousand desktop sales perhaps but who cares about that).
None of the mobile phone companies have yet properly chosen Windows as the one and only OS and just keep on insisting on experimenting with software that does not make MS any money.
Nintendo? Do you really think MS was pleased when they included opera as the browser? Do you realize just what this means? Several MILLION people will see for the first time in their live a NEW browser. MS does not like this, it does not survive well when people have a choice, especially when this choice is the default and just works out of the box. That ain't how MS works.
It gets worse, not just are individual consumers learning there are choices and not choosing MS as their software supplier, companies like IBM, HP, Dell are showing that they are far from the loyal lapdogs MS thought they were. Oh the revolution ain't there yet, it may never happen, but if you are a despot and you hear a voice shouting OFF WITH HIS HEAD and you see your "loyal" guards knod in agreement, it is time to worry.
If you think a company like IBM would not relish a change to see MS humbled, you do not understand human nature.
Then their are countries, China is a huge unexplored market, it should buy MS software NOT mess around with linux even if it is just sales tactics. That is not how MS works, it doesn't compete, it dominates. The old example of Munich must be mentioned, for the first time in decades MS was faced with a counter proposal and they reacted instantly by not just lowering the price but by the way of free training and more effectly making MS pay munich to deploy windows. Still no takers. You know you are in trouble when you can't PAY people to use your software.
No, the revolution won't come in 2007 or 2008. Most likely it will never come, it is already here. When was the last time you came across an IE only website? How many years have you been able to file your taxes from Linux/Mac? (Holland several years now) Java programs are finally getting traction, just look at P2P.
AMD opens it graphics cards to opensource, a thing many said was impossible, Intel already heavily supports opensource drivers for its hardware. Are there any giant PC makers left that do not sell Linux no matter how obscurely? Lots of hardware makers now mention linux in their support list.
Oh, it is all small stuff, but it is there and MS is scared
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Windows is closed source how could linux got the code and put it in the linux kernel? And why now? the NT kernel came out in the late 80's and linux in the early 90's.
That should read - we can't blame MS for Darl driving SCO at high speed into the brick wall that is IBM.
When will one of the bodies that represent open source (FSF, etc) take MS to court for libel, or whatever the exact lawyer speak is... and get them to shut up ?
It's ok. This is the beginning of the end of Microsoft's reign in the IT world and they know it, which is why they are taking the legal route. The Beast wants to extort as much money as possible from people before it's all over. Companies that resort to legal threats and eventually legal action are beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Touche! GP seems like the nine hundreth thousandth slashdotter who has repeated that mistake ;-)
You obviously dont understand what a patent is. A patent has nothing to do with the code itself....but what the code is doing.
It's also a matter of non-obvious things. Function of recycle bin is obvious. Function of Samba = not obvious.
Presuming for a moment that there actually were any infringement occurring . . .
Saying that the customer who is the end-user of the operating system is liable for any infringement said developer has included in said operating system is like saying that I am liable for the royalty fees to ASCAP if I watch a commercial on television in which the producer and directory did not acquire proper rights and make proper payments to the artists. If you have a problem, take it up with the offending party and don't pull out these bullshit scare tactics on the end-user who has nothing to do with this.
Anyway, as I'm sure others have already pointed out, I thought there was that whole thing of Microsoft using (without license -- or at least perhaps without proper license adherence to its use) the BSD TCP stack? I could be completely wrong about that, but I seem to recall us going through a whole set of hysteria over that on Slashdot some years ago.
And I ponder what is buried in the contracts between AT&T -> Microsoft (The Xenix OS paperwork), Microsoft -> The SCO group (Xenix), AT&T -> Novell (UNIX sale), Novell -> SCO (partially gone over and a Judge has ruled on) and the sealed BSDI VS AT&T (settled by Novell) case.
It is quite possible that Microsoft lacks the ability to sue BSD - because of the previous contracts.
I hope MS sues the pants off Linux vendors. I hope they do the best job they can!
The only way 3rd party corporations are going to view Linux with any shred of credibility is if MS sues Linux vendors and looses, or wins, it doesn't matter. Once the dust settles the law suit will be over and done with and we can all get on with making our widgets.
If MS wins, Linux can strip the offending IP out and offer a new IP free version.
If Linux wins, MS can shut up and step aside.
Isn't this the law suit that Linux and FOSS have been waiting for?
Bring it on MS... bring it on.
For Ubuntu and Debian, I'd recommend they just give Microsoft 5% of all the profit they make off selling Linux to customers.
I've tried hard to convert to Civ 3 or Civ 4, but they really suck in comparison.
/me considers opening visual basic.....
So does Freeciv, it's really not even comparable. C-evo is closer, but C-evo is Windows only, and I'm currently on Gutsy 64. I installed an x64 XP partition SOLELY for civ 2, only to find out that it does not play on xp x64. *Sigh*. So currently I'm VNCing out to my old XP box in the garage to get my civ 2 on.
Isn't somebody going to make a good FOSS Civ 2 clone?
I'd LOVE to have identical gameplay, but maybe some better AI (optional!), and more future technologies (specific ones, not just "future technology 1" (also optional). And I'd love to have it LOOK like civ 4, which is gorgeous (including Leanard Nimoy voice overs).
I really have tried every civ since civ 2, and still go back to it, but wished:
A) It ran on Linux, or at least under wine.
B) Was updated and vibrant as part of a going concern.
C) Had a "Start game now" option in Pidgin.
It's amazing how FOSS does so well in some areas: Open Office, Gimp, Firefox, Thunderbird, Zsnes, Ardour, Audacity, Dscaler, Virtualdub, etc.... But hasn't come up with ONE really good game.
I mean, it seems like a couple of 12 year olds could write a good civ 2 clone in visual basic. Hmmm....
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
...I should get a shiny new copy of RHEL. ;-)
"Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness."
"We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race."
"The petition dwells upon `the co-mingling of the colored and white races'. May we inform the members of the Conference that so far as British Indians are concerned, such a thing is particularly unknown. If there is one thing which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type."
- Mahatma Gandhi
The truly funny thing I see in all of this, aside from MS's continuance to hold their breath 'til they get their way, is that by taking on Red Hat I believe they've inadvertently threatened Oracle as well. If I'm not mistakened Oracle redistributes their own version of the Red Hat code base, correct?
Oh, for the days when sig's didn't have to be cute...hey, wait a sec.
Microsoft hasn't honored my numerous requests to provide a list of the patent numbers is question even though I demonstrated that the ISO/IEC directives say clearly that patents should be disclosed.
If someone followed me around saying untrue things about me, I'd get a restraining order. I wonder if Redhat can do the same. Treat Ballmer like the drunken ex-husband he resembles.
This is slander against everyone of us who develops open source software.
Does anyone know the name & address of Microsoft's legal representative in Texas?
Andy Out!
Let me get this straight. What Balmer is saying is "People who use [Linux] [...] have an obligation to compensate [Microsoft]". Yes, I deliberately left out the intellectual property bits to show how ridiculous it sounds. It's like saying people who eat at Burger King have an obligation to compensate McDonalds. No, they don't. Just because you think you invented the One and Only Burger and some people made a choice for the competition, that doesn't mean that those people owe you ANYTHING.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
At the moment, the Linux camp is milling around saying, "Patents, what patents? Show us the patents!" and it can be pretty well "documented" with press releases and blogs. Seems to me that it would be pretty darned hard to show any sort of evil intent.
This just reminds me of the whole SCO case (which was meant to be a front for Microsoft anyhow). We will threaten you without any evidence and hope that you are too scared to stand on your own. Does this not sound like Mafia tactics? Shouldn't this be illegal, if it isn't already?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc
Isn't this one away from his tree?
Observe that you are talking about copyright (the code, the implementation of the invention), not patents (the invention).
You can't work around a patent by implementing the same thing differently; you have to license the patent or do something else, to be safe. It's harder than just re-coding the infringing part.
Microsoft surely has patents on obvious, elementary "things" implemented in Linuxes. Their problem is, those same things are implemented in Solaris, AIX, and other OSes -- and they would have to be suicidal to want the shitstorm that would be the retaliation for opening that giant can of worms. IBM especially has a five-digit number of patents accumulated... and remember how the Nazgul needed to pick and choose only four to get just about every SCO product infringing IBM IP (which was utterly elegantly done IMHO).
That's why Ballmer didn't even mention patents but the obscure "IP". That's why this is FUD tactics but not much more. I suspect MS *wanted* to pay Eolas to get to show the world how expensive patents can get -- but with a player that clearly had nothing more to throw at them, and was standing clearly away from the fearsome Old Ones who might get pissed off and win a huge court war too.
Microsoft isn't going to sue anybody because Microsoft doesn't want to be caught in the middle of such a suit that would place them in the hairs of government antitrust prosecutors. Microsoft wants no attention. But we don't have to go very far back to find out what they are very willing and capable of doing. That is, find and finance a straw man patent owner (such as they did with SCO) to sue the pants off of every distribution that, coincidentally, doesn't have a deal with Microsoft. This will happen after they've given up their shake down. This whole thing isn't about patents. It's about rugged mafia type business tactics and money.
Now who could that straw man be? Any ideas?
Everyone who's gone against the Open Source/Free Software community in the past has come up short. Bring it, Ballmer!!! Bring it!!!
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
Consider MS's frustration. It would like to sue someone to set an example and get new revenue sources in line. But who? Red Hat would be an obvious deep pocket. But where is the infringement located in the distro? Unless it's something so fundamental that there's no way to code around it, it will be coded around soon after MS reveals it. If it's a key functionality for some businesses (say, Samba) that MS can get Red Hat to withdraw from the distro, that package will simply move offshore. If MS starts suing large corporate customers for something like Samba that interoperates with MS tech, it will be suing its own customers - so do they solve this by dropping their key servers, or by finally moving their desktops and the Exchange-y stuff they run on Windows over to *nix to avoid the problem?
And if it is something so fundamental to the core of Linux it can't be coded around, the odds are long that MS's patent will be found invalid, since virtually all that stuff was invented for *nix before MS ever existed.
So if MS sues, in most any scenario *nix (both Linux and most probably Sun) wins. This is such a sure thing we should consider doing all we can to provoke MS to sue - except that we'd hate having some of our best minds preoccupied for a few years with the court battles.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I've paid over and over for your crap fucking operating system, I won't be giving you another redhat fscking cent you worthless overblown piece of shit.
Go fuck yourself.
Salut,
Jacques
But there are also laws against frivolous lawsuits, SLAPP, and such. Seems to me that threatening IP action without specifics, without opportunity to mitigate, especially when the threatenee has been asking for those specifics, ought to go a long way to landing the threatener in that "bad lawsuit" camp. I am not a lawyer, even less an FTC or anti-trust lawyer, but the whole thing reeks of restraint of trade.
Don't delude yourself, suing Microsoft would be suicidal to the point of stupidity. Microsoft has more cash on hand right now than RedHat can make in the next ten years, and probably the next fifty years. Even if you had an airtight case, MS has enough money and power to stall the case until you go bankrupt. How many years has the SCO thing been going on? Now imagine if SCO had one thousand times more money for their corporate war-chest, and the influence of many senators and congressmen. MS would crush RedHat like a bug, then use that judgement to go after all of the other distributions. They'd just love it if RedHat tried to sue them, it would be like getting out of the safari car and kicking the lions.
The law of slander in the UK is such that you can sue someone who makes statements that cause harm to you or your company. While truth remains a defense against slander, in the UK the onus of proof is on the person who made the statements.
For example, if I said in a public forum in the UK "Your company conducts illegal acts" I could be sued for loss of reputation (which has a monetary value) unless I could prove what I said was true. The company suing me would not be required to prove that it did not conduct illegal acts - the fact that I couldn't prove it did would be considered damning enough.
Slander (and libel) have 'fair comment' clauses, but a particular allegation such as IP infringement would not exercise them.
(Nope, not a lawyer, but like the rest of the internet, I play one on Slashdot)
-- Sorry, I can't think of anything funny to say here.
I missed the press release. When did Darl McBride start working for Microsoft? Maybe he do for Microsoft everything he did for SCO!
Right, and that's what MS needs more revenue. They began with; software should not be free and lacked the insight to embrace any other viewpoint. Their single minded beliefs remind me of Natzi Germany. It's fine if you want to take over the world.
Giant pink teapots are interesting, eh? Oh Boy, you guys are really jaded. Knock off the acid for a few weeks, OK?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
ssia
As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
Steve Ballmer should really be more concerned with the flop known as Vista... rather than Linux.
He seems hellbent on focusing on linux, where as...Vista... not so much.
Of course it was slow... your running it from a livecd.... now if you would have actually installed it you would have seen how quick it actually was.
-Cnik
Until it is changed, software is patentable in the US and the US is a rather large economy and creator/consumer of FOSS.
Fight Fire with Fire -- generate even more patents than Microsoft and release for FOSS!
Maybe the time is right to create a streamlined FOSS patent process so we can get those ideas filed. Of course, it might end up choking the USPTO.
I agree with this. It seems that if Microsoft products are indeed so much "better" then Linux products. Steve Ballmer wouldn't need to spend so much time shooting down Linux if the current Microsoft software is indeed better then what is found in the current Linux distro's.
...are you hinting that the IP linux distros have stolen from microsoft is user frustration? :P
Seriously, I hope you're prepared to read 5k comments stating that "you should have used another distro/used kde/installed slack/do it from terminal/whatever".
Just sue them for ouright slander. Then they have to put up or shut up. Take the bull by the horns....
SCO went through this crap and lost in the end.
Microsoft has thousands of patents, some of which undoubtedly describe techniques used by Linux. Of these, there are undoubtedly some that will hold up as valid in court, and even invalid patents can be almost as effective as valid ones (just ask RIM). There's a well-known story about IBM effectively compelling Sun to pay them patent licensing fees even though they weren't sure which patents from IBMs vast portfolio Sun was violating. Finally, there is a certain degree of specificity required in accusations for the doctrine of laches to apply, and Microsoft has been careful to avoid this.
I'm not writing all of this to say the situation is hopeless for Linux. However, all of these comments saying that MSFT is just spreading FUD and really doesn't have any patents that impact Linux or that laches will protect us are simply wrong as anyone who has actually spent a large part of their job (like I have) dealing with SW patents will tell you.
IMHO, the most likely outcome is that FOSS supporters with large patent portfolios will end up exchanging an agreement that they will not sue MSFT if Microsoft agrees not to go after FOSS, but that's just my wild speculation...
Why does this Ballmer dude always remind me of Dick Cheney? Is it that he doesn't seem to do anything except spout hatred and antagonize, that he seems to divide the world into enemies or friends ("you are with us or against us")? That he spends an inordinate amount of time attacking and insulting different groups? That he's always spinning some threat or other? That he takes a lot of passive-aggressive potshots, hates the media? Ballmer throws chairs, Cheney tells people to fuck off? I imagine them with sneers on their faces, their eyes dripping with dark thoughts and hatred, always thinking of ways to crush their imagined enemies, thinking of nothing else.
In any case I've never really seen any photos of Ballmer but my mind seems to want to substitute Cheney.
The many informative replies to this ridiculous post should make it clear that this post is not informative.
If the intent was a coordinated attempt to mislead, then mission accomplished.
If the parent has actually been lead to believe any of their statements, then please note, your claims are baseless and false.
If anyone wants to actually argue any of the baseless claims, then I have worked in banking IT and other high-availability environments. I have professional experience that refutes all of the false claims.
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
Being fast is the least of my worries about it.
I had to use XP machines fifty times slower(with flashing lines of taskbar icons),when opening a
single window takes minutes and feels like 486 trying to swap its last harddisk megabyte.
The Ubuntu is pretty fast when it loaded from CD.Its just doesn't works.
I don't care about copyright,i'm against any copyrights whatsoever.I just seen that ubuntu looks more windows-like then mandrake(i.e. GUI-centric with GUI apps).
mandrake was full of badly coded Gui apps.
The only familiar sight was the "linux kernel loading" dialog which resembles old windows 95 dialogs with default theme.
MS can make any claims they want for as long as they want. If teh Lunix community honestly believed they weren't stealing MS's IP, they could actually sue for declaratory judgement: it forces someone making legal claims into a court to prove or disprove those claims.
However... the fact that teh Lunix FOSSies have not done so seems pretty damning. It's like they are afraid to actually get it into court, and simply choose the delay the inevitable for as long as possible.
Another interesting aspect is how the GPL FOSSies recently refused to allow simple compliance to bring GPL violators in line, opting instead for additional, punitive, measures. That attitude is going to haunt them, now that MS can actually sue the Lunix for damages. All teh FOSSies who constantly whine that MS isn't letting them see the infringements so they can gut any violations from teh Lunix are getting hit with their own bat, since they themselves agree that simple compliance should not be sufficient.
Of course, MSFT is evil|sneaky for not disclosing the possible offending patents.
But I suspect some of the places where Linux interfaces with DOS|Windows might be patented.
Eg Samba, filesystems that read/write FAT32 or NTFS, ReactOS, etc.
In these (interface) cases they *might* have a winning case.
Just sayin'. Mod me down if you wish.
It works... you just didn't 1) had it running from a live cd 2) didnt have your network configured correctly.
-Cnik
Not mentioned in all this is that Linux is mostly a very old design. Patente are only for twenty years. BSD UNIX was a mature system twenty years ago, in 1987, and is demonstrable prior art for most of what's in the Linux kernel. The Linux code is different, but the concepts are mostly the same. Which is what matters for patents.
Microsoft may find some obscure infringement somewhere, but that can be invented around.
I'd worry more about patents in the virtualization area. That's newer technology. Virtual machines go back to 1967 (the IBM 360/67), but the ugly hacks needed to make them work on x86 are still within the patentable period. If there's patent trouble, it's going to be in something that has to be done a certain way to be Microsoft-compatible, like importing .DOC files or SAMBA-type network emulation.
Why don't Linus and RMS go around claiming that GPL code is in Windows, and there will come a time when MS will be forced to open the source?
I mean, honestly, Ballmer's patent claims are just as ridiculous.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Redmond's open source boytoy knows which patents, ask him ;-)
people keep asking why some people hate Microsoft..
...exactly what IP is Linux infringing on?
Mr. Ballmer; state exactly and precisely what IP Linux infringes on or STFU!
If it sets a precedent on something common, the company that sues can then go after Apple, Red Hat, etc. MS has deep pockets and can afford to settle. Apple as well, but it would depend on the patent. If it covers anything iPod, it would be bad news.
This may be just be blunder and buss from a bumbler or it could be some hint of their nefarious plot to take over the world. I'm leaning towards the former.
Wasn't it about a year or so ago that Microsoft claimed their patents were just for 'defensive reasons' and they promised that they wouldn't on the offensive with them and start suing linux vendors? 'not to worry' they said...
So who here actually believed them anyway?
Time to start hoarding source code people. Phase 2 of the war has started.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Who are they going to sue? And do they really think IBM is just going to sit by and watch Microsoft eat their lunch (IBM, positioning themselves quite closely aligned with Linux)?
And even if they *do* win and somehow wipe some core technology out of Linux - people will just be free to move to BSD.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
"Getting an intellectual property interoperability framework between the two worlds, I think, is important." I don't know why but this sentence seems to reflect how poorly Balmer understands free software. I think I know people like that. They seem to think that any "system" that distributes money to people is just as important as any technology behind that money. So, maybe there is not necessarily any evil intent behind his words, maybe it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of a man that has lived his whole life thinking that money is the most important thing in the universe - and therefore assumes that everyone, including Red Hat and the rest of the linux / open source / free software / etc. thinks the same way.
Isn't that for the courts to decide? It seems to me that they are now starting to notify people of infringements.
Sure not everyone knows yet, but if they are making an attempt i bet the judge will give them a free pass for a while since they are 'trying'.
What it will take to ether prove its a farce and end the nonsense threats, ( or its the end OSS if we lose. remember there is always that risk ) is for one 'company' to refuse to deal and take them to court to force them prove it and let the judge decide.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Looks like they're just bunch of patent drones who have submitted a bunch of shit to the US patent office. They don't actually have any products to buy...
Software patents really do need to die...
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Compensate for what? If this forces the issue, I will be glad. MS needs to spell out exactly what infringes. I want to know exactly what has allegedly been infringed. After all, MS has repeatedly used UNIX-like operating systems to create their products. BSD TCP. Xenix directories. And so on. I have been reading Love's kernel hacking book recently and I sure don't see any NT or VMS similarities! Let's get this out in the open.
Dream on Ballmer! Linux is taking over the market and there is nothing you can do.
MS is just mad about Eolas hitting them with infringement. Ballmer made the statement that the patent system needs reform, so he obviously is just planning to get opensource advocates on their bandwagon and then they are gonna go after the US patent system. So this is all just another Ballmer style marketing scheme, nothing more.
If you don't know what it is you're infringing on? Almost ALL companies tell their employees not to look into patents but to let legal look just because if you HAVE looked and decided that your work isn't infringing but the judge decides otherwise, you're now willfully infringing.
So why are FOSS coders held to a stricter path than commercial companies?
October 10, 2007
... er, license fee.". Some of the questions for the audience include, "Does the copyright apply to rocking chairs as well? What about bean bags?" Balmer retorted with, "anything I can sit my big-ole-fat-ass in qualifies as a chair!".
London, UK - Steve Balmer at a recent rally had witnessed an upset executive throwing a chair at his subordinate. Balmer quickly reacted with threats of IP infringment stating, "Hey Pal, I was the one who invented Chair throwing at your employee's! Unless you're going to pay up the license fee, I'll see you in court!" Balmer further addressed the reporters at the rally, "I think we'll consider a new copyright on throwing chairs at Linuxer's that fail to pay the Microsoft Sin Tax
There's currently a big fight going on about this in various standardization organizations.
For example, the rules of the Swiss standardization organization say very clearly and unambiguously that if something is patented, it cannot be a standard.
However, Mr Sebestyen, the chairman of the standardization committee for information technology topics (who is also secretary-general of Ecma) is completely ignoring this rule and instead pushing Ecma's "RAND standards are acceptable" agenda. The chairman of the subcommittee which deals specifically with OOXML is likewise happy to ignore the rules. He is an independent consultant who earns money by representing the interests of companies in standardizations organizations, and who hasn't disclosed whether he's currently getting paid for doing that subcommittee chairman work by a company with a particular interest in OOXML.
At the ISO/IEC level, the rules are less clear. The ISO/IEC directives say clearly that any patents should be disclosed and then it should be decided whether or not to accept the patented technology as a standard anyway, and that this should happen only "in exceptional situations". In practice, this rule is again not followed in the fast-track process, where Ecma again has a lot of influence.
It is in the context of this conflict that I've recently started OpenISO.org, an internet-based standards organization which aims at reviewing proposed standards and other specs in order to determine whether they fulfil a reasonable set of requirements for acceptance as a standard. These requirements include that for any patents, at least a patent non-assertion agreement must be available which must be strong enough to prevent discrimination against Free Software software or against other competitors of the patent holder.
You gotta love it. Balmer is just telling boogie man stories to the kiddies again. Note how he brings up Eolas in an attempt to legitimize his claims without actually having to give an example. Makes you wonder if part of the settlement was an agreement for Eolas to go after Mozilla.
You'd think they'd have learned when their lackey McBride went down in flames? Did you also notice they started this new round of nonsense when the writing was on the wall for SCO vs. IBM? Is Eolas going to be their next proxy/lackey? If that is true, I would strongly urge Eolas to take a good long look at what has and will happens to SCO in the next several months. That should be the proverbial "head on a pike" warning to anyone that's thinking about it.
It works for millions,but not for me.
I don't have time and nerves to spend configuring this distro since i already spend enough doing the same years ago with windows.At least windows had decent help files.
It's easy.. that dhcp checkbox is what tells it to start the connection on startup... yet, since you were running it from the live cd it won't remember that you checked that. that's why the command prompt is your friend... you could have easily have started the connection from there.... linux has loads of useful help files (aka man pages).... step 1 RTFM
-Cnik
So what you're saying is:
1) Your PC currently runs Windows 98, an operating system you've been using for, presumably, 9 years or so.
2) The PC in question is also about that old?
3) Ubuntu installed as advertised on this (presumably) older hardware -- including an older network card? -- after you used one of the options on the initial installation screen. If I remember installing Windows 98 correctly, this would still mean installing Ubuntu required less user input than Windows would.
4) When you played a chess game you had never used before, on an operating system you had never used before, you did not know how to do everything you wanted.
5) When your internet connection did not work, on an operating system you'd never used before, you did not know how to fix it.
"Very user friendly" != "Absolutely no learning curve." A more rational strategy would be to dual boot Win 98 and Ubuntu for a little while, and give yourself as much time to learn Linux as you spent learning how to do things in Windows all those years ago. It would also let you post on a user forum for help with your internet problem.
If nothing else, you'd learn a little something, and potentially save a lot of time not having to defrag drives, update antivirus software, and other assorted things. Not to mention that you'd actually be able to find some help with your OS when you need it. How many Windows 98 help forums are available these days?
doc
Can one have a class-action style corporate lawsuits, wherein the affected companies (in this case Linux distributors) may pool legal resources for the purposes of being represented in a single case?
Ballmer dances like a monkey.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Please Please PLEASE help stop this stupid typo from propagating further!
:)
15 years ago I mistyped this and now it's all over the net.
Please don't type LOSE as LOOSE, they do NOT mean the same thing.
One is Lost, the other is NOT-TIGHT.
On a side note.. my OTHER typo... You know.. the one people type ALOT.
Yeah... Please use A LOT from now on.
You don't see people typing ALITTLE do you ?
Thank you
p.s. and you were so eloquent up to that point. *sigh*
My father is looking to get a new laptop. Between various stores, I am already finding that support for XP has faded dangerously and noticeably. Sure, most new machines come (sadly) preloaded with Vista, but at least one could get the drivers online and re-image those suckers back to XP. From what I'm seeing now, there are NO XP drivers for a large portion of the newer laptops sold at common stores such as Future Shop or others. This applies to HP, Toshiba, and other major brands... a lookup of XP drivers on their website comes up with missing drivers: VGA but no Audio, Audio but no VGA, or no LAN, or nothing at all.
So XP is definitely on the way out, and despite what I had hoped was a good opposition from vendors against support its dog-meat, Vista is coming in. That means more sales for MS, and unfortunately, less pressure to stop pulling the same bs every product cycle. Vista adoption might be down, but anyone getting a new PC is likely going to be faced with getting it soon. Even if Linux becomes more popular, Vista is still the os-de-jour that comes with computers, and as it spreads out people will once again learn to simply put up with its stupid issues... because they don't see a choice.
MS's patents will simply come to light while patents do exist, they are not valid due to heaps of prior art, etc.
In this fight, they're against both a young and old generation of techs, programmers, etc that reaches back to remember "well, yeah, we did something that's more or less like that on Program X back in 1987, so prior art exists to this patent."
If MS started pulling up BS patents, you could probably count on your fingers the time until some enterprising geek setup a site which listed the patents and encouraged FOSS supporters to link or describe prior-art and other ways to invalidate them.
Steve Ballmer = Troll ;-)
"no violence, no hate, no pain, no enemies just peace, unity, tolerence and love" - The Beloved
Free the BC3!!
Just because Novell pays MS a royalty doesn't mean that they believe that Linux contains MS IP. It might, but that isn't a sure indicator. What it does mean is that Novell believe that it is economically advantageous to pay MS a royalty. How much would a court case cost them vs how much would a royalty cost them? How likely is it that at some point that some Linux programmer somewhere might produce something that is close enough to MS IP to cost them a court case? There are so many software patents floating around that sometimes it's cheaper to pay MS off than to worry about it.
That sucks
Translates to: Oh, puhhhllease, OSS developers, why don't you use our poor old Windows as your platform of choice?
Sounds kind of desperate, doesn't it?
Someday, you're going to piss off some disgruntled looney a bit too much and when you walk (or waddle in your case) into your next conference, that guy is going to pull out a gun and actually kill you, or try to kill you.
I personally sudder to think of the shit that would come out of those holes, though. Would make a mighty stink.
Ballmer knows he has no chance in hell of ever getting anything from this. The whole situation has been analyzed and recently the OIN told Ballmer to put up or shut up, so Ballmer is just saying this because he seems to get of sexually over all the attention he gets every time he opens his butthole about Linux.
He knows he's just farting into the wind and he's simply doing it to stink things up and hoping that he isn't standing there when he lets one go and the wind changes.
He's a fruitcake and he has no idea how shitty it makes him look. When the shit hits the fan then we'll seem something more than Ballmer jerking off in front of the fan with his mouth open.
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
Interestingly, and following SCO's proven tactics in the matter, he stubbornly refuses to say *what* patents are allegedly violated.
Of course Mr. Ballmer admits that he doesn't expect to see a huge revenue stream from licensing agreements (he named the Novell agreement), but that isn't the point you see.
The point is that "free as in speech" and "free as in beer" are threatening Microsoft's business model. If only he could somehow get rid of the "free as in beer", and with it the "free as in speech", he would turn Linux into just another commercial offering. And that's something he knows how to compete with. By fair means or foul (just see the recent EU verdict against Microsoft and judge Jackson's findings of fact in the DOJ-Microsoft case a few years ago for what those "foul means" amount to).
It's also important to realise that no solution that consists of Linux simply dropping any code (assuming any Linux code were to be found to infringe on Microsoft's patents) can be acceptable to Mr. Ballmer.
With that in mind it's easy to understand why Mr. Ballmer really *cannot* list the patents he wishes to receive "just compensation" for. It's because he does not want to give Linux any opportunity to remove any offending code (assuming there is any). He does not want any compensation either.
He just wants to make Linux non-free because that's how he can get rid of it.
Ballmer, imbecile. You can come and kiss my ass.
Glass, FreeBSD user.
So that's where Darl's been recently. He hasn't been hiding under a rock like everyone hoped. Ballmer has obviously assimilated his soul (although it's debatable that there was a soul there to assimilate in the first instance)
I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. Isaac Asimov
FOSS is a kind of gift economy...
I think there is a misunderstanding of Free software on all sides here. It isn't a "gift economy"; it isn't an economic philosophy/model at all. Good intentions notwithstanding, it damages the reputation of Free software when advocates make statements such as this since we already have to defend against ignorant detractors who consider Free software some sort of "communist threat".
Free software is a software development model first and foremost. One might call it "massively collaborative software development" but that probably wouldn't have the impact that "Free software" or "open source" does. The chosen development model of software does not require the adoption of a specific economic ideology--IBM and Red Hat operate within a pretty capitalistic culture quite successfully after all.
There is this mis-conception that Free software developers "give away" their code and have "no respect for intellectual property rights". This is very far from the truth. In fact, in today's global legal framework Free software depends very much on respect for intellectual property rights. The VAST MAJORITY of Free software is copyrighted code, and authors of that code wish to have their rights respected and for those who make derivative works to maintain those rights granted by the original authors. No, the code is most definitely NOT given away.
Microsoft as a notoriously "slow learner" to be sure, but I'd be careful not to dismiss Ballmer as someone who "doesn't get" Free software. I think he very much "gets" the concept behind it, and is very much aware that the Free software community does in fact have a healthy respect for intellectual property rights (ie. that being anti-software-PATENTS does not mean anti-IP in general since copyright law is respected and defended). Ballmer probably even knows that "massively collaborative software development" is not magic and is why Linux and Apache and so on are very solid technical achievements.
What Ballmer doesn't see is how Free software could make massive profits and maintain growth for Microsoft. MS doesn't succeed based on innovation or revolutionary ideas; it has succeeded thus far because it finds those windows of opportunity. Bill and Paul didn't invent BASIC, they just spotted the perfect entry point into the PC market with the release of the Altair. MS-DOS wasn't the first OS for personal computers, it was a work-alike of the REAL innovator and was successful because they got in bed with IBM at the right time. Microsoft not only didn't invent the browser, they dismissed it as a fad initially. They spotted the opportunity to license Spyglass Mosaic to hedge their bets. They are perennial followers, however now that they are so huge once they adapt to the environment they can then set about adapting the environment to MS.
The thing is, Ballmer and Co. are having trouble spotting opportunities now, because now they have to change the way they operate, do something revolutionary and innovative. This is particularly difficult for a massive, publicly-traded corporation of any kind. Promiscuous US patent law appears to be the opportunity MS is trying to latch onto. This isn't a "capitalist-vs-socialist" battle--it is simply a company that is struggling to find some vision while other "capitalistic" enterprises are establishing themselves using Free software (most notable Google and IBM).
I find Ballmer's strategy especially distasteful because it involved building a business model on protectionist government legislation. Copyright protection, when properly implemented and applied, can be used to maintain a level playing field. Patent law, as currently implemented is solely about protecting monopoly status and stifling competition (and sadly, the DMCA is threatening to make copyright in the US into a similar tool).
The have more money. MSFT's market capitalisation is $282.43B, IBM's is $160B.
Market capitalisation is irrelevent to how much money a company has, it's useless as a figure of merit. It's just the number of shares times whatever price per share the last trade was made at. If company X has a billion shares out there trading at $1/share, the market cap is $1B. If someone then offers $2/share for a small trade -- even one share if it's a low-volume company -- the market cap is now $2B. That second billion is entirely virtual money, only hypothetically realizable if the other 999,999,999 share could also sell at $2 each. Even if they could, it only does company X any good if they own those shares -- if the company doesn't retain any to sell itself, market cap is useless. (Almost -- a high market cap is a defense against a hostile takeover.)
What matters is cash on hand and revenue. Microsoft has revenue of about $51B and about $21B cash on hand (not the ancient $50B number that still floats around -- Microsoft has been forced to give a lot of that away on dividends because of stagnant growth, and some of that in fines and settlements). IBM only ("only") has a bit over $10B cash on hand, but has nearly twice Microsoft's revenue at about $95B.
-- Alastair
Ballmer is saying that patent holder companies are soon going to start targetting Linux companies who might have enough money to attract their attention. Companies who have signed up with Microsoft are protected from the likely predators because Microsoft already fed them and the agreements also cover any infringments done by Companies that Microsoft is associated with. So (theoretically) Eolas couldn't sue Novell since they are protected by the agreement with Microsoft but they CAN sue Red Hat and Ubuntu for example.
At the present time, 1568 people from all over the globe have called Microsoft's bluff by signing up to be sued for "infringing" Microsoft's supposed "Intellectual Property" which is impacted by various open source technologies. If Microsoft does have valid claims, let them come forward with those claims. Otherwise, their validity of their claims are left gravely in doubt.
I mean, think about it. Consider the number of businesses uses FOSS today. The numbers are massive, and represent a huge paycheck for Microsoft, if it has valid claims. But since it probably has no valid claims, it is not going to press those specious claims for fear of losing, as did its proxy, SCO.
The URL is here:
http://digitaltippingpoint.com/wiki/index.php?title=SMFM_list_page_13
Wow.
;-)
1568? In the context of the entire global population?
That's a lot.
> So XP is definitely on the way out, and [...] Vista is coming in. That means more sales for MS
Not really. Every time they sell a copy Vista pre-loaded it means they are selling one less copy of XP. If my calculations are correct they should end up with the same number of sales overall.
I'll probably be modded down for this...
I just thought it will be as easy as XP or 98.Is there a wizard to guide you like "new connection wizard" or something.
because this learning curve assumes that i have hours and extensive documentation for
essentially a small GUI app which does not work.
Since Cannonical is based on the Isle of Man, that would put our benevolent Ubuntu sponsors in a prime position to execute said slander lawsuit...
weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
you mean there is no way to create a connection,but using the command prompt?
In this user-friendly distro,this must be the most unfriendly part.I would compare this to
Dos batch files to dial modems.
What Dr. Evil isn't realising is that contrary to what he might think, Linux isn't actually a threat to Microsoft at all.
We've been waiting for the proverbial Year of the Penguin since around 1999; it still hasn't happened, and I don't think it's an unsafe bet that it most likely isn't going to, at this point.
Linux is fringe, and the sociological plague that its' userbase refers to as a "community," are their own worst enemy where it becoming anything remotely close to mainstream is concerned. It being fringe is exactly how said community like it.
Yes, yes...so Michael Dell has got on the bandwagon by shipping a few machines with Ubuntu. Go back to sleep. It is entirely unsupported, and close to unacknowledged by the company themselves...it enjoys around the same status as Blizzard's stance on using Linux with World of Warcraft.
The only two things Ballmer accomplishes by continuing to make these sorts of noises is making himself look like a moron, and adding fuel to the delusion held by the few Linux zealots who actually do want to advocate the system, that they're making some kind of concrete progress.
It's been said before. If you want mainstream UNIX, that isn't presided over by a group of basement-dwelling, adolescent genetic aberrations, go and buy yourself a Mac.
You can use the GUI once you actually have it installed.... Since you were running it off the live cd the option to bring up the dhcp connection on boot-up is not stored or turned on by default, so you have to use the command prompt to bring the connection up. Once you actually install it and set the network connection to start on boot it will work fine.
-Cnik
https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/internet/C/connect-to-internet.html#internet-basic-procedure easy as this.......
-Cnik
Apple had their own BASIC!
What was I thinking? Must have been given a duff batch of pills.
Stick Men
My little two cents here is that Microsoft is stupidly barking the wrong tree, and in time they will pay for this.
On one hand, Microsoft's trying to alure developers to their technologies. Without them, they little by little will become irrelevant in this day and age, and they know it. They are desperately doing this and spending a lot of money to accomplish it.
On the other hand, 'dumb-ass Ballmer and new crew at the top' are more and more threatening Linux users, which ironically is made mostly by the same developers they are trying to alure.
Is this an intelligent way of doing business? You do the math!
It seems that Microsoft can't handle the fact that they aren't getting some people's money when it comes to installing or choosing an operating system. Basically they seem to think they have the right to everyones money no matter the circumstances. I guess billions of dollars isn't enough for them.
Yes, that's the kind of story for which Ecma is pushing for acceptance, hard.
What Microsoft is pushing for is much more subtle -- it doesn't explicitly involve explicitly agreeing to paying the $FEE to $COMPANY, but Microsoft's strategists understand the situation very well so that fundamental market economics will ensure that if we agree to accepting Microsoft's $THIS as an international standard, the $FEE will be paid to $COMPANY, regardless of whether we like it or not, and regardless of whether there are actually any legally valid patents or not.
That of the global population you are talking about, very few people "get" tech issues. And, of those who "get" tech issues, many are too busy to be able to go to a website that has had no commercial advertising at all and sign up to be sued. And out of evey 100 people, how many are willing to put their names up *anywhere* on the Internet, let alone include their email addresses? IMHO, 1568, now 1570, is pretty impressive.
They've revealed their new business model for 2008:
If you can't innovate, LITIGATE !
MS is looking to misdirect from Vista. Get people to talk about anything except how poorly Vista is doing.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Retreat. The Massive Army of jewish lawyer will ensure that whoever comes in their way will end up being in Chapter 7....
Unless the Fuhrer rises in America!
9/10 time Ballmer opens his mouth, it results in positive mind share for MS.
1/10 it doesn't. Any PR person worth there salt will take those number.
When the subject he spouts BS about has no cohesive mind share, it's even better.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is the same thing i read in Ubuntu help and
there is no mention on how to connect beyond this one-liner.No password,no username no Server IP address,No configuration parameters, Nothing.
There simply is nothing to use to connect.
There could be command prompt version for it,but then i'll better stick with windows.
I had my share of expirience with DOS and command lines,and i would not repeat it.
I cannot understand why Microsoft would claim as intellectual property something that they have repeatedly claimed was broken, dangerous, more expensive and far inferior to Windoze... Is that a confession on their part that they're hopelessly inept or merely confused?
Go live in Europe !
...
We don't have patent crap here.
We do have :
* high living standards
* social protection
* more free time
* high average education level
* death penalty is forbidden
* it is a lot easier to have nice sex than buy a gun
* people like having fun
* a successful space program
* innovative companies
Well. If you speak only English and plan to stay on the continent, you would have to learn at least one new language
Microsoft only controls the OEMs, that's all. Windows is everywhere only because of that, not because customers want it. The rising popularity of Ubuntu among the joe sixpack of us, increasing marketshare of Mac OS X at the expense of Vista adoption. Those things scare the shit out of them. If Redmond can't grow their business in the next 5 years, they're doomed. Microsoft is fatally wounded, hence their blind attacks. Same shit with the OOXML soap, they're desperate as ODF will ruin their dominance in the office market fast.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
-Mahatma Gandhi
Little Stevie "Baldie" Ballmer seems to be generating so many stories lately, saying the cutest things.
Really, we need an icon depicting him at his finest - he's been featured enough lately. How come Amiga and Windowmaker have their own icons and he doesn't?
My suggestion - a balding fat gorilla ready to test the aerodynamics of furnishings designed for ones posterior in the direction of the unsuspecting.
Cheers
~$strings /mnt/windows/windows/ServicePackFiles/i386/nslookup.exe|egrep -i 'berkeley|california'
gives
@(#) Copyright (c) 1985,1989 Regents of the University of California.
@(#)nslookup.c 5.39 (Berkeley) 6/24/90
@(#)commands.l 5.13 (Berkeley) 7/24/90
@(#)debug.c 5.22 (Berkeley) 6/29/90
@(#)list.c 5.20 (Berkeley) 6/1/90
@(#)subr.c 5.22 (Berkeley) 8/3/90
@(#)skip.c 5.9 (Berkeley) 8/3/90
@(#)getinfo.c 5.22 (Berkeley) 6/1/90
@(#)send.c 5.17 (Berkeley) 6/29/90
Interesting discussion anyway, even though I find the mix of lack of morality and the excess of $ deeply disturbing. Call me an idealist and cry me a river.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Which still means more money for MS. You can't use any of your existing XP discs/licenses to install on the laptop because it only runs Vista (not that you get money back in most cases anyways). Moreover, as they are able to kill off XP, support for XP software will also die down... meaning that they can do the happy cycle of new-OS+old-apps-fail, old-apps-fail+buy-new-apps, new-apps-require-new-os+upgrade-other-machines.
Now that the SCO corpse has been consumed, MS will throw another one onto the FUD fire to keep the smoke and mirrors up. And they'll keep pitching bodies until something sticks.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Ballmer is a stupid dick.
That is all.
FAQs are evil.
Don't forget Henry Ford beat a very broad patent to produce automobiles. MS should be very careful before saying it's all theirs!
Perhaps patents should have to be actively protected, like trademarks, and if a company lets another company use their patent for too long uncontested it becomes public domain.
Patents have to be protected as it is. If a patent isn't protected, via Laches, Doctrine Of or Doctrine of Latches a patent owner can loose their patent rights if they don't enforce those rights.
FalconShould there be a Law?
1) Can threatening people with unnamed patents for an extended time open up defenses of patent misuse? Prosecution latches?
Close, it's called Laches, Doctrine Of or Doctrine of Latches.
FaclonShould there be a Law?
Good thing you reached your daily posting quota with this one.
you can't by definition break US law.
Sure you can and you can be sued in a US court as well for acts in other nations. There's a little known law in the US that allows people in other countries to sue those in the US for different things, the Alien Tort Claims Act of 1789. For instance in Wiwa v. Royal Dutch Petroleum Co Shell Oil is being sued in a US court for supporting the Nigerian government while the government executed Ken Saro Wiwa and killed some people in Nigeria. However the Bush admin is trying to gut the law so his buddies like Shell and Exxon Mobil Corporation can get away with supporting murderers and human right violators.
FalconShould there be a Law?
This whole thing is getting out of control. Ballmer is way too greedy. He doesn't look at the smaller, but smarter group of people that use Linux. Last time I checked I believe it was only around 20,000,000, Linux users versus around a billion Windows users. Another thing about this whole thing is you notice how you always see the Bill Gates AIDS charity stuff before you hear anything about this in the news? I think that a lot of this AIDS charity stuff and Bill Gates being all great is a smoke screen so that Windows can eliminate Linux in a slimy way without being noticed and they can get a good reputation anyway. If there ever is a lawsuit Microsoft will lose even though all the lying cheating lawyers are working for Microsoft. I guess they just like to hang out with their own kind.
Please visit http://www.mederbil.com/ i7, GTX 275, 4 1TB Caviar Green in RAID 0+1 array, EVGA X58 3X SLI Board, Silver
So if they go to Canada or Mexico first, THEN get on a plane to Cuba, its okay?
It doesn't matter how a US citizen gets to Cuba, if a Cuban stamp is on their passport they will be arrested when they come back. Unless they are Cuban, then they are allowed to travel to Cuba to visit family something like every three years. You can also be arrested for bringing those Cuban cigars you bought in Canada with you back into the US.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Several countries (eg Belgium and Spain) have laws which allow them to prosecute "crimes against humanity" in whatever country they occur.
Spain has charges against Henry Kissinger for his support of Gen Pinochet in Chile. If I recall right some Spaniards were some of Pinochet's victims. But Universal Jurisdiction "is a controversial principle in international law whereby states claim criminal jurisdiction over persons whose alleged crimes were committed outside the boundaries of the prosecuting state, regardless of nationality, country of residence, or any other relation with the prosecuting country."
FalconShould there be a Law?
"He doesn't look at the smaller, but smarter group of people that use Linux."
What operating system somebody uses is not related to their intelligence. Why can't people just grow up and accept the fact that not everybody uses the same operating system that they use?
Each operating system has its own strengths and weaknesses. it is up to the user to figure out which OS is best for them based on these strengths and weaknesses.
Don't mind the extra X. Alex
Linux owns the server space, MSFT's hardly even a relevant player, that's not going to change
Actually MS is gaining in the server market. Netcraft shows that Apache is dropping whereas MS is increasing in servers. Though this talks about Apache not Linux, while Apache runs on Linux and Windows as well as OX S (I have it installed on my Macbook Pro) and Solaris, MS Internet Information Server only runs on Windows. Easily at least. If ISS is gaining not only is Apache loosing ground but Linux is as well.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I wonder how many of those people might be officials of the federal government? This would make any material misrepresentations a felony punishable by fines and/or a prison sentence.
Have gnu, will travel.
You said, What do you mean by "those people"? Do you mean the 1,570 people who signed up for the "Sue Me First, Microsoft" list?
And what do you mean by "officials"? Are you talking about elected officials? Appointed officials? Mere employees?
And what do you mean my misrepresentation? Are you talking about negligent misrepresentations as well as intentional misrepresentations?
And what about the element of harm or detrimental reliance? Most criminal statutes require some type of harm to follow from a misrepresentation for criminal sanctions to apply.
I am a lawyer, and I have to say that I am extremely skeptical of the strength of your opinion. If you could provide us with a citation to even one criminal case that remotely supports your opinion, I would be grateful. In the meantime, I remain highly doubtful of the credibility of your opinion, and even more gravely in doubt of your motives for posting such a questionable, unsupported opinion here.
+1 moral fiber
Money is the root of all evil?
We'll pay when you show us the patents that Linux supposedly infringes.
(Well, I'm just saying that. We won't pay--even if we wanted to, the GPL would prohibit it--but we will stop infringing by removing the offending code or challenging the patent in court.)
Debian can't just let their non-free software slide until a proper alternative can be found; they'll have to pull the software.
All the essential software in Debian is based on such old technologies (Linux, X11, Gtk+, etc.) that there is simply no way that Microsoft can have valid patents on any essential functionality or algorithm.
The worst Microsoft could do is claim some non-essential feature. Users wouldn't even notice. Debian would stop distributing that package for a couple of days while the offending code is deleted, then the next update would replace the package with a non-infringing one.
But it does suggest an interesting option for patent reform. Perhaps patents should have to be actively protected, like trademarks, and if a company lets another company use their patent for too long uncontested it becomes public domain.
I agree that that's a good thing. Keep in mind that, while it's not required by law, courts can and do take this into account. In particular, it's hard to make an argument that a patent violation is causing you economic damage if you let other people infringe your patent knowingly for years on a large scale.
IBM didn't fiight that hard for their _own_ OS2 and got their asses whipped and you expect them to do it with RedHat?
Microsoft has _2x_ the market cap as IBM and makes it 3x faster. http://blogs.msdn.com/heatherleigh/archive/2007/05/03/because-the-numbers-don-t-lie.aspx /okScrewEm>
Steve's new strategy doesn't give a damn about the US or EU. But even he knows a billion Chinese can't be wrong. The only thing you can be sure of is when these two finish screwing with each other, we'll all be worse off.If Microsoft argues that the patent is so obscure that it took Microsoft themselves many years to find it, that in itself shows that the patent isn't essential to the competition between Microsoft and Linux. It would also mean that Linux developers can hardly be blamed for not figuring it out themselves. So, even if the patent were valid, it would be worked around before the trial even started and Microsoft would likely get nothing out of the whole process.
Don't forget mono either
.NET patent: that is not relevant to Mono (since Mono doesn't usually use .NET libraries), and even if it were, it would probably not apply even to Mono's .NET libraries.
Which Microsoft patents do you think Mono infringes? Don't tell us about the
of course patents for true type fonts
The patents are on hinting, and they have been worked around. Nobody knows about any remaining patent issues there. If you know of any, please present them. Otherwise, stop spreading FUD.
I have had a feeling mono and the upcoming silvermoon is just a way to trojan horse all the linux distros with ms IP and Miguel might be in on it.
You're really acting like "Billy Gates" by spreading baseless FUD and accusations against open source projects and developers.
Courts aren't stupid. The Microsoft/Novell deal ended up putting hundreds of millions of dollars into Novell's pockets. As a result, the patent licensing agreement isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
>I find the mix of lack of morality and the excess of $ deeply disturbing.
BINGO!
I find that attitude disturbing in general, but especially scary when it pervades the LEGAL field.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
And so the monkey boy danced, the dance he knew so well.
The dance he knew would please his master, and the onlookers would cheer.
But in the back of the room where the lights were dim, stood some unhappy souls.
They found no joy in seeing the monkey boy dance and their faces were filled with sadness.
The monkey boy saw their shadows, and knew what he had to do.
He danced harder and faster than ever before, and the crowd cheered for more.
Out by the curtain his master was standing with a smile on his face.
He found great joy in seeing the monkey boy dance, gathering ever more onlookers and angering
the sad souls in the dark.
(tbc)
There is a Chinese distro called 'Red Flag' Linux. It is mainly sold/distributed in China, but anyone in the world can get or download it. If Ballmer has the balls to actually do this, what if the Chinese reply to his lawsuit with a naval blockade of, say, San Francisco and a few ICBMs near Seattle. China has seventy five MILLION troops and they are not committed currently to any ongoing action. We have less than a few hundred thousand and they are all overextended in Irak. How many troops has Ballsmer? How many of us are really willing to die for the microsoft monopoly? And that leaves Russia. They have recently implemented Linux from a French distro, Mandriva, that was recently forced to change its name from Mandrake because of harrassment from a defunct comic strip publisher. Is Russia to be sued as well. They are already allied with China. Now comes India and Brazil. They could be allies of China too over this. What happens when all these armies converge on Washington like the fall of Berlin in the Great Patriotic War?
What will be left of our country then for our love of monopolies that have stolen our standard of living, raised our oil prices, left us with no nuclear energy to speak of in order to increase profits for the petrochemical monopolies, filled our country with illegal aliens for use as slave labor, and sent the rest of our industry to China?
There's only one thing you can do and that's whenever MonkeyBoy is in town, you stand up and say "MonkeyBoy, put-up or shut-up." And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's Andrew Meyer and just taser him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and ask them for decorating tips. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people stand up and say "MonkeyBoy, put-up or shut-up" and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I said fifty people a day stand up and say "MonkeyBoy, put-up or shut-up" and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.
And that's what it is, the "MonkeyBoy, put-up or shut-up" Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar.
Or is that Microsoft infringing on MY IP?
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
FUD is all they have.
In a nutshell, twitter wrote Hello Kettle, I'm Pot and you're black@PPH
IIRC, your earlier post asserted that representations made on the Sue Me First, Microsoft list risked exposing all 1,571 people on that list (latest count) to criminal exposure for making misrepresentations to US federal officials. I'm sure that the representations from your personal experience to which you are referring where in the context of bids made to the US federal government, or in the context of other business transactions to the government.
I'm probably not sticking my neck out on a limb here by saying that statements made on the "Sue Me First, Microsoft" list are not representations made "to" federal officials. So I'm still not clear why you are going on about this issue. Exactly who is exposed to criminal penalty, and for doing what?
MS lost squarely in the EU. Do you know how many people work in the department in the European Commission that brought to fruition the antitrust case against MS? Less than 20. And the MS case was not the only one they were dealing with.
The idea that only having loads of money you can defend a case is ludicrous. If you know you are in the right and have a lawyer that knows what he is doing you should be OK.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The Monroe Doctrine and the whole "spheres of influence" thing is dead. The US criticized other countries for imposing travel bans on their citizens, all the while doing the same
The whole blockade of Cuba is stupid. At the same tyme the US trades, and traded, with the Soviet Union and Communist China the US refuses to trade with Cuba. This is because of a very vocal minority of Cubans, many in Miami. If instead of blockading Cuba Kennedy had kept up trade with Cuba the US may of been able to moderate Castro. But of course the US supported the tyrant Fulgencio Batista.
FalconShould there be a Law?
The list of countries where the US supported oppresive regimes, and the ultimate economic cost involved, would be interesting reading.
It would be sad reading. A small number may gain but many don't.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Naturally a fat fucktard would support Micro$haft Windoze. All fat fucktards seem to support fucktarded OSes, just take a look at that fat chair-throwing fucktard Ballmer.
Remember fat fucktard, anytime you post I will remind everyone how much of a fat fucktard you really are. Eventually someone in their right mind will mod your whole fucking account into fucking oblivion which is what fat fucktards like you should do by slitting your fucking wrists. Once all you fat fucktards do so, then there will not be a shortage of food ever again.
If you flame me or ignore my post, then you will prove just how fucking right I am fat fucktard.