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Anti-Terrorism and the Death of the Chemistry Set
An anonymous reader writes "A recent unfortunate casualty of anti-terrorism laws is the home chemistry set. Once deemed the gift that saved Christmas, most Slashdotters probably remember early childhood experimentation with one of the many pre-packaged chemistry sets that were on the market. Unfortunately the FBI has decided that home chemistry sets are a threat to national security and they are rapidly disappearing from the market entirely. Those that remain are shallow boring versions of the old kits."
You do know the government is just trying to take care of us, right? Heck, I got the warm fuzzy long ago when Claritin-D, technically an OTC drug would only be sold from behind TC, and then only if you present picture identification, and even then you could only purchase enough to take one a day for ten days! Of course, if it isn't in stock when you want to purchase, you're out of luck... but you're being taken care of. (If you didn't know, the government was/is protecting us from the proliferation of meth labs with this inane process... not that I've noticed much evidence meth labs have disappeared. I have been a lot more congested though.)
Surprised chemistry sets didn't go this route long ago, what with their potential to put together explosives approaching that of a couple firecrackers combined! Warm fuzzies.
I hate to rant about good intentions, but these don't even smell like good intentions any more. Terrorists couldn't care less about chemistry sets.
The death of a certain type of chemistry set. There are a pretty wide number of sets available including the specific kit mentioned in TFA (Chem C3000) and the reviews there both mention the difficulty in gathering some of the materials necessary to doing the expirements. I don't think it is just terrorism though. Terrorism, a litigious society, the war on drugs - I think any one alone would have probably been enough, and we've got all three.
I wonder if this might signal an opportunity for some entrepeneur to develop a virtual chem lab. It's not exactly the same, but at least it would give kids an opportunity to learn and explore. It could also offer features you wont find in any real chemistry set. Nice graphics showing what is going on on a much lower level. A virtual professor to help out and explain. Tools and materials that are too expensive or that really would be too dangerous.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
The Home Meth Lab Kit! Get yours today!
I am not left-handed, either!
Those that remain are shallow boring versions of the old kits.
What, no more ammonium nitrate, sodium pellets, and hunks of magnesium? Ah well, there's always mail-order.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
All knowledge shall follow. Knowledge is terrorism. An informed public is a dangerous public.
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
Check out http://www.unitednuclear.com/ and build your own. Amazing stuff your mother wouldn't let you have. a
Why not just throw everyone in jail now, so we don't have to worry about terrorists running loose in the streets?
I highly doubt that home chemistry sets cause terrorism... little kids aren't going to go make bombs and blow people up, and people who want to make bombs can easily obtain the materials from elsewhere. I think a bigger problem is the fear that children would hurt themselves accidentally by ingesting chemicals and such.
Mr. Wizard wasn't interested in "educating" youth, he was trying to build an army for his own jihad!
Tomorrow, knowledge. Dangerous times ahead.
Seems the terrorists have already won, with a minimal expenditure of energy/effort. I still wonder if this was the plan all along, to just nudge the civilized world into self destruction on its own, or just an unexpected side effect worth exploiting. Either way its the same result, but i am curious.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm glad they haven't gotten to electronics kits yet...I'm sure they will eventually though. Those things are dangerous! God forbid people learn to build crystal radios to tune in the forbidden propaganda broadcasts. Knowledge is dangerous (...i'm only about 3/4s kidding, too)
12:50 - press return.
"Killing knowledge, one step at a time."
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
If someone wants to blow something up, they need to look no further than under the sink. How long before Drain-O is a thing of the past?
It's sad really, those sets got me interested enough to pick chemistry as a career.
Gone!
Will be the calculator. Then pen and paper, and then books. Except the bible, of course. The mind is a terrible thing
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)...
What?
While this contributes to the death of the set it wasn't the beginning. What really killed the chemistry set is marketing. Have a look at the sets of old where you saw a scientist with a white coat with the ugly beard doing something cool. The sets of these days have some sort of slobbing freak creating other freaks using green goo. Nobody was buying them for that reason alone.
Its interesting, this was the subject of the first episode of "Wired Science" a new PBS episode. I can not agree more w/ the premise. The unfortunate part of what makes it even worse I think is due to terrorism/columbine etc even looking up this stuff will get scrutiny that wasn't really the case back when we were all kids. As an example of this I get the impression that from the press "peroxyacetone" is now unfortunately used by terrorists all the time (in fact that was the absurd uncomprehensible basis for the "no liquids" on planes).
..
What was interesting about the Wired Science show was that show bemoaned the fact that chemistry sets are watered down but the show had a chemist talk about how dangerous using nonlaboratory conditions to run one of the "old school" experiments were.
The irony of it was in this show that was going on about "dangerous" chemicals was that "dangerous" chemical was actually NI3 one of the standard things kids used to make all the time.
On a personal note, I was one of those kids who was a total pyromaniac in high school / middle school, we eventually grew out of it of course, but we pretty much made everything one could easily get a hold of and then some. All of this was done in using "household" chemicals (and some ordering from chemical supply companies). The practical upshot of being a complete pyromaniac in was I ended up getting my undergraduate degree in chemistry/CS and getting a Ph.D. in chemistry and now am a faculty member (in physics randomly enough). At the end of the day it was "blowing stuff up" that made science cool, perhaps a little dangerous, perhaps even foolhardy but the fact that you could do so much w/ everyday chemicals sparked that interest in science, atoms and plain old tinkering
Surely that could be used by terrorists to lure and then annihilate politicians and megarich businessmen of the opposite (or sometimes the same) sex. It smells like a chemistry set too!
Do it yourself, because no one else will do it yourself. [beta blockade 10-17 Feb]
Amateur Rocketry is now dead too. I remember going out to pick up a couple engines and found out about the new (impending) restrictions. The government pretty much handed the terrorists their victory and hobby science is one of the victims.
Sorry, thats far too sterile to really learn anything.
Until you burn your fingers on a hot beaker, or smell the reults of your last failed ( or successful ) experiment that catches on fire or cracks the bottom out of your flask, you never really learn. Its all theory without that sort of 'real' experience..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I was lamenting the passing of the hobbiest chemistry sets long before 9/11. You can still get them in various places and you can get a fairly wide selection of chemicals from a number of sources, including e-bay. Hell, I even bought some concentrated (70%) nitric acid off of e-bay not more than a year ago.
That said, the decline in hobby-level chemistry sets, as I mentioned before, began with the rise in the "new American Dream." You know, the one where you sue somebody for a million dollars. Liability for selling chemistry sets is, without a doubt, astronomical in these days of knee-jerk litigation... Nobody in their right mind would sell something to children that they could easily kill or wound themselves with, quite easily...
From my own personal history, when I had a chemistry set as a child, it came with glass tubing and an alcohol burner. You used it to heat the tubing and bend it into shapes to connect beakers and what have you together... Well, not being old enough to know better, and not patient enough to wait for the tubing to cool down on its own after bending it, I decided it might be best to cool it off in some water. I consider it fortunate I didn't lose an eye when the glass exploded. And that didn't involve any chemicals... Not that the stuff they provided was terribly dangerous, but it's dangerous enough that it's simply not a viable business anymore, is my point...
I sure do. It must be 40 years old now, but I've still got my Lionel-Porter Chemcraft Chemistry Lab. I'm afraid to open the small chemical bottles to see if they're still good. I've got 17 of them, a Porter alcohol burner, a couple of test tube and the Adventures With Chemistry book, copyrighted in 1958, and filled with experiments. Apparently this was produced by the Lionel Toy Corporation.
The closest thing to terrorism I could find was Experiment 344 - Proteins Contain Sulfur: Mix some egg white with a smalll amount of Calcium Oxide (No. 20) to make a dough. Put this mixture in a test tube and heat. After the mass turns brown, cool it and fill the tube 1/4 full of water. Shake and pour off the brown liquid into another test tube. Add 2 measures of Sodium Bisulfate (No. 7) and heat to boiling. Remove fromthe heat and smell for hydrogen sulfide gas. This smell is like rotten eggs.
I had some fun with that one.
WTF are the dumbed-down chemistry sets now?
The old ones were dumb enough. When I got a chemistry set when I was small (something like 60 chemicals), I got bored of all the pre-drawn experiments and decided to experiment myself. I mixed pretty much every goddamn chemical together.. BLUE liquid! yay.. Then, I put some in a test tube and heated it.. and OMG.. it boiled!!! and then.. it smelled like crap! Yay chemistry.. It was like they formulated the entire set to be as unexplosive as possible.
Fucking nanny state...
I would've attacked the issue of terrorism the exact opposite. I'd tell everyone to grow some balls, carry a fucking gun, ask suspicious people questions, and be vigilant. And.. everyone can carry whatever the hell they want on a plane. I'd like to see a terrorist just try to hijack a plane when who knows how many people are armed...
Don't ban chemistry sets.
--- We need more Ron Paul!
They burn if ignited.
They can cause physical injury if someone is stabbed with one, or has a hub thrown at them from close range.
They can be assembled into a gun that might look too realistic if viewed under poor conditions.
Got to get rid of this stuff now. Leave the kids ignorant of any toys that might actually teach them critical thinking by doing.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The thought behind this is the same as the one behind Germany's banning of certain computer security tools, and the assaults on cryptography. Dangerous tools exist in every important field, and those with no fear of falling behind will always want to ban more and more. We need another Sputnik moment to galvanize the angry reactionaries to demand more science instead of demanding more childproofing.
Yet again we have the same people who accuse the government of fear mongering using their own similar tactics to put a political spin on things. Anyone with any knowledge of the subject knows for a fact that chemistry sets started going safe long before 9/11 or terrorism.
How about those who supposedly hate modern day administration fear mongering try to not be a bunch of hypocrites and admit that this has been a long time in coming, probably before many slashdotters were even out of high school.
This is not an attack on any group. it is just a reminder that our enemy is religious extremism in any form, and not just those that the extreme religious right might label terrorist. It is science, innovation, and a willingness to take risks that have gotten the US to where it is. We have safety, but we also have risk. For instance, we support research on biological agents even though there is a significant risk. Such research is critical. We allow guns even though guns can pose a risk. We allow drunk drivers to drive again, even though there is a risk. The later is a real eye opener. It is likely that, in the United States, more innocent persons are killed in one year from alcohol related accidents than in the past 10 years of terrorist attacks. In the face of this we spend perhaps half a trillion dollars on the foreign terrorists, but then let these domestic drunk terrorist go free.
We are heading into a dark age in the US. An age where we crawl into our shells, cowards who are to scared to create. As dangerous as it was, I had a real chemistry set when I was a kid, and the familiarity allowed me to excel at classes that others did not. None of the stuff was foreign to me. Just like we give kids toy kitchen sets, and toy guns, and toy cars, and toy phones, so that when they have the real thing that will not be afraid, we must also give the toy science devices. As as they get older, and the kitchen and the gun and the cars get more real, so must the science. Even to the point of a full lab for the home schooler that wants the kid to have a broad education.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
When I was a kid I used to mix #$%@#$%#$@ with ^*%^%%^* to make a great rocket fuel for launching magic markers. I did no serious damage... well there was the time I had 10 to 13 foot high flames coming out of a 7up can. After hosing out the fire it was about five years before a tree would grow to replace the nearby tree that died.
When you can buy fertiliser, sugar and petrolium by the tonne.
Oh noes, their going to blow up an air plain with some iron filings, potassium permanganate and some magnesium! Or use the test tubes to start up a methamphetamine lab!
Do you know why I cringe when I hear these stories? Because their going after the wrong thing with the wrong tactics, chemistry sets have long been a way to inspire kids about the stuff, some just don't get it, but others get an opportunity they otherwise wouldn't have to kickstart the process and get the interested and passionate about physics/chemistry at an early age.
Personally I'd rather see biochemistry sets/guides for kids, grow your own bacteria and such (I found it much more interesting than chemistry), but with the "threat" of anthrax breaking out any minute now I don't think they'd be politically correct (just as it seems limiting chemistry sets is "politically correct" in the US).
The sorry thing is, it's going to take you a long time to get these implicit rights back after the initial knee-jerk reaction.
Seems similar to the RIAA and MPAA, something that Could be used to "pirate" music or make explosives we should ban!!! Be it BitTorrent, or chemistry sets, the only one that loses is the consumer, next I guess they will ban the internet or the selling of computers because as we know you can learn things that are illegal on the computer and you can rip CDs to put on your MP3 Player 111 *shift* !1!
There is no "disagree" moderation, and troll, flamebait and overrated are not valid substitutes
dissolving ants in hydrochoric acid, pouring bleach into ammonia and giving myself chemical pneumonia from chlorine gas, setting the house on fire with burning trails of isopropyl alcohol, fiddling with the mercury drops i squeezed out of that weird battery
heh
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Yes, chemicles decay. It's just like food. Leave them around too long and they go rotten. They probably decay to atoms, which if left untouched decay to protrons, neutrons, and electrons. Leave those alone and they'll decay to quarks. Yeah, you've got to stay away from those old chemicles.
Dynamite decays too. Becomes to unstable that you look at it wrong and it can go off with a big bang! Avoid chemistry sets with dynamite in bottles.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I remember getting a chemistry set when I was a kid (mid-eighties I suppose) and I think the most exciting thing I managed to do with it was to make some clear liquid turn red, then clear again.
It was rather disappointing when compared to some of my experiments with Things Found In Every Kitchen...
My (all girls) high school chemistry teacher expressed a lot of dismay at the changing laws about what chemicals she was allowed to show us. The education department provided these videos of "safe" demonstrations of the various properties of dangerous things that they were supposed to show us in lieu of a live demo. She'd show us the video... then swear us all to secrecy and produce an ancient brown jar of [sodium|sulfur|some other now banned chemical] from the bowels of the school's ancient chemical safe and repeat a fair portion of the experiments for us.
Sometimes it's good to go to an old school ... we only had to evacuate the building once (lesson learned: sulfur + fire = bad).
I'll never forget a particular class during organic chemistry. We'd made some crappy alcohol and were distilling it and she told us about how at university she and her classmates in the chemistry department used to have massive cocktail parties using the pure ethanol stock.
For the highly motivated, there is still "Fun With Mom's Cleaning Products" and "The Anarchists Cookbook".
Have gnu, will travel.
What does that have to do with chemistry sets?
I had one of these sets when i was a kid and it taught me a lot, and was one of THE things that got me interested in science. if we take away these things, we WILL lose future chemists that could very will invent life saving drugs.
i seriously don't see how the fuck they are a threat either. you can't really make any explosives out of them. i guess knowledge that's not controlled by the government is the target here.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
C'mon... let's see that score elevate.
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
knowledge is dangerous. QED.
-DHS
Fertiliser already requires photo ID and valid reason. When our car's radioator was serviced the antifreeze was changed for a new blue liquid, while I haven't investigated, I'm betting it's a non ethylene glycol formula designed to be less useful as a precursor. I can't get thoriated gas lamp mantles and the "non radioactive" ones are feeble. Chlorine and sodium hydroxide aren't that far down the list anymore.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
It problably doesn't help that the first thing every kid tries to do with his or her chemistry set is try to figure out how to make something that either burns or blows up. It's usually not the parents that think that the chemistry set is the terrorist training ground though--it's the geriatric neighbors. My brother and I had the cops called on us numerous times for chemistry related antics. Once my brother and I mixed some chemicals to make flammable gas (Hydrogen, I think), bottled them up tightly, lit a candle and plugged the hole with it. When the candle burned down, the gas (under pressure) first released around the candle making a stream of fire, then the candle dropped in and the whole container blew, spraying the side of the house and the neighbors' lawns with plastic shrapnel. My dad came running out to the window we watched through, where we were laughing hysterically. "What was that?" "It was a bomb." "Cool! I think I have another bottle here. Make another one."
The cops came and gave us a warning about fireworks.
~Ben
Wikileaks, no DNS
I'm British, so it's not counter-terrorism that's taken the chemistry kits off our shelves, it's the health and safety obsession, but the result is the same. With my first chemistry set, I managed to mix the chemicals together in a test tube to produce something that was bright pink, hot to the touch and took a layer of enamel off the sink when I tried to pour it away, and *THAT*'s precisely what got me interested in science in the first place. Alright, my parents weren't too happy at the damage to the bathroom, but it sparked a curiosity in me that's still burning the better part of two decades later (thankfully, the sink isn't - a bit of cold water put it right out).
The chemistry sets of today are boring, and are just going to reinforce the view that too many kids these days have that science is boring - you'd be lucky if you even got some odd-coloured smoke out of the chemistry sets you see on the shelves nowadays.
Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
The terrorists have successfully attacked our imagination.
1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
There are a lot of things that have changes. The Lawn Dart was the original version of the game college kids now use beanbags to throw into distant circles, usually holes in a wood box; I forget the name. Oh, no...it was a nearly foot-long object with about 1/2 of it metal, flung downrange to a yellow, tubular target. I'm sure someone, somewhere got hurt on them, but not if they were using them carefully. They weren't really sharp, outta the box.
:)
And steel dashboards used to be the rage; I remember the one on our 1963 International Travellall was nothing but a flat plate, screwed to a rounded metal dash, and you could swap out gauges with your International tractor, if need be. It was very cool; huge, as fuel was cheap before the Carter Administration, came with a tailgate, an electric glass rear window, and plenty of room around the engine to work, under a hood that held itself up with springs. I'm amazed the danger of this rolling house-o-horrors didn't strike us on the salesfloor.
But things change; they have to. I can remember dozens of times hearing about a friend or relative mixing sodium and water because the effect was "cool". And probably the most popular effect was making stink bombs. But I suppose like the erector set before it, it's time had to come.
Now that GI Joe is becoming some watered-down blue-helmeted dweeb, when he was once a huge man-doll with a huge Jeep and weapons, I don't think the change in the toys seems to have followed the politically-correct crowd, too. And just for the record: No Conservative nor Republican was the source of this nonsense. Say what you will, "PC" is from the mouths of grown-up hippies.
Sorry, guys; you would have loved a childhood in the early 60's and 70's.
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
I've seen this trend for a while, and it predates 9-11.
I believe the issue is more of a "legal" than "security" issue. I think the high risk of lawsuits is what's killing these kits. In the old days, if you let your kids be unsupervized and they started eating the chemicals - you were considered a bad parent with a stupid kid. Now days, parents tell the kids to eat the chemicals in hopes of a winning lawsuit so they don't have to work anymore.
How many classic toys have gone the way of the dino because of our stupid frivolous legal system and lack of responsibility culture. I mean, Burger King/McDonald's (one of the two) had these flying princesses. They spin, their wings fly out and they whirl into the sky like helicopters. "Recalled and banned!" Why? Because they're uber dangerous. The fly toy might just land on the child's head. We can't have that. (Not like a baseball isn't a 100x more deadly - but we're not going to ban those.)
Bah...this plan deserves to be turned into an intergalactic entranceway.
The Terrorists Have Won!
...and by Terrorists, I mean Bush, Cheney, Giuliani and all the other fearmongering neocons...
"A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
All powerful tools can do both great harm and great good.
You may either accept this risk and enjoy the benefits of science or crawl back to the safety of your cave.
But make no mistake, those are the choices.
To boldly use to and too two times and get it right too! They're not gonna believe their eyes when they see it there!
In Texas - you need to register to use lab apparatus like condensor, flasks etc whereas you don't need to register for handgun - http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/pages/chemicalsapparatus.htm
I have used half the apparatus mentioned in the above list.
No wonder home chemistry sets are dying. The priorities are messed up.
Just an afterthought:
Do we sue the gun makers when people get shot.....
My head just exploded.
I'm just buying the kids on my list the two types of drain cleaner (conveniently located next to each other at Home Depot -- NaOH (in both solutions and crystals) and H2SO4 solutions), and some commercial cleaning fluids (acetic acid, ammonia, HCl, CCl4.. oops, that one really is hard to get).
No instructions, though. If they can't figure out how to blow up the house on their own, they're no kids I want anything to do with.
There's still fun to be had in chemistry. If kids really wanted to learn about chemistry, they certainly can, but it's become something to be afraid of. Even in high school, kids were afraid to light the bunson burner....
However, when I was 13, I started visiting http://www.roguesci.org/
I've always gotten my chemicals and various tools over the internet, and I've never really been questioned. It has become slightly more difficult though, as Skylighter changed their requirements.... but there are still chemical suppliers out there that'll sell to anyone with a debit card.
I'm now 19, and my fourth of July's are pretty damned fun.
PS: eBay's a great place for bulk AL powder w/o paperwork.
www.isoHunt.com
Some brief web surfing turned up Chem C3000 as being the best available. The glassware to chemical ratio is much higher than the sets of yore with racks and racks of little bottles of chemicals. I remember chemistry sets used to be advertised by the number of chemicals -- now it seems to be the number of "experiments".
Isn't there a current trend in our educational system where students are deviating from following math and science programs to pursue more "fun" fields? (This last part is debatable and I'm a bit biased ;)
There have been so many initiatives to get people interested once again in these fields (such as IBM sponsoring its own program, the backlash of computer scientists regaining control of the field to prevent further outsourcing, etc)..
Wouldn't this undo these efforts by preventing a child from being curious? I remember my first chemistry kit - it amazed and awed me, really got me thinking, made me even more curious.. shouldn't we be trying to make children more and not less likely to *think* outside of school, on their time and find it to be enjoyable!? Sigh..
Slashdot covered this story back in June.
Fun for all the kids!
My first methlab
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If by "anti-terrorism laws" the summary means fireworks regulations, anti-drug laws, and most especially product liability laws and precedents, then it is somewhere on the sane side of reality. TFA didn't have a single example of an anti-terrorism law that impeded the sale or manufacture of chemistry sets. Paranoia strikes deep.
I'm pretty sure considering bases accept protons, bleach would not be an oxidizer :)
While i agree with the general "stupid terrorism nonsense" theme of the thread, i can explain your blue antifreeze. Old school antifreeze has a substantially shorter usable life than the newer coolant formulas. THey're designed to be stable 100,000 miles...essentialy the life of a car these days.
I especially love it when "oil and lube" shops convince people they need a 'coolant flush' and replace the mfg coolant that's good for another 60,000 miles with the generic gunk.
Anyhow, govt sucks balls but we all knew that.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
Seriously, once we're allowed to blow our own fucking minds with any chemical we choose, then maybe we'll be free. Right-wing second amendment morons talk about how fucking American it is to monotonously blow holes in a tree and walk around drunk in the forest with a gun shooting songbirds, but it's equally American to shut your door and get loaded on whatever chemical you choose - and doing so causes considerably less annoyance to your neighbors.
The flag just makes more sense than the constitution. - Judas Gutenberg
John Travolta, good watch. Quote; In the calculus of trial law, a dead child is worth the least of all. It's all about settling and these manufacturers would rather send out cheap simple sets that can turn red water blue than to send out a huge box of chemicals not a lot of kids would have the attention span for much less understand. In today's fast multi variety childrens market it's just not worth the investment...
FlyingPizzas.com, for the tasteful hermit
Are chemistry sets getting crappier? Of COURSE they are! When I was growing up in the 1970s, the best I could get was a pale imitation of the ones my dad had in the garage. Now we're a generation along, and the ones I had look like danger waiting to be used. It has absolutely nothing to do with terrorism, and everything to do with the obsessive culture of safety.
TFA is a big, steaming pile of shit. Read it carefully, and you'll find there's not a single 'explanation' of why things are the way they are that holds water.
It's just a grumpy twit with a computer. Nothing to see here.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Chemistry sets aren't the only casualty in the war on access to scientific knowledge. Artist Steve Kurtz was completely railroaded by the FBI for doing artwork that used harmless e.Coli bacteria. The geneticist that got the material for him was charged with mail fraud too. All after he called 911 to report his wife's heart failure. http://www.caedefensefund.org/faq.html
I really would have liked to mod a few things in this discussion, but I figured most folks would like to see this link:
http://onlinebooks.110mb.com/tm%2031-210/31-210-contents.htm
Hmm... I'm not sure how to change the displayed text of a link with slashcode, the document is TM 31-210, Improvised Munitions Handbook. Lots of fun projects that will work even for the 'chemistry impared', as long as you stay paranoid about safety (as you should any time you're making explosives or acids!).
Much Madness is divinest Sense --
To a discerning Eye --
Much Sense -- the starkest Madness
I remember playing with the chemistry set my parents bought for me & my brothers 20 years ago, and finding that just about the only thing I could do with it was make some liquids that stank like old gym socks, and some other liquids that changed colors. This is a safety trend... for the same reason that, 20 years ago, I rode my bike all over town with no helmet on, and now, my parents would be locked up and I'd be a ward of the state if I didn't leave the house with training wheels, a full helmet, knee pads, elbow pads, and gloves. Our overly litigious nanny state has caused these changes. It has nothing to do with some sweeping anti-terror law.
But you know, I suppose it's more convenient to somehow place all of these developments and social changes at the feet of the Patriot Act and George Bush, because as JFK pointed out... it's a lot easier (and a sight more comfortable) to simply form an opinion, facts be damned.
Hmmm. thought just occured to me.
Are we basing our "security" on stifling curiosity? Will this eventually lead to profiling folks who ask questions -
"Why does this bubble when I mix these?"
If kiddies can't ask these kinds of questions - and are prohibited from having tools with which to seek answers, where are we headed?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Love sees no species.
In NZ we have full dissection kits for sale, scalpels, tweezers etc. Surely a few bland chemicals are safer than a ten dollar dissection kit? "Kitties got something in his eye, I'll fix him"
---
This move by the Empire to deny its subjects the opportunity to discover chemistry is another shot in the foot. Concerned parents will just have to get a little more creative in sourcing educational experiences for their children...
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
Didn't this happen to some extent 20 years ago?
I was born in 1968. My parents bought me a chemistry set at an appropriate age, and there really wasn't anything interesting to be done with it. It had a dozen or so plastic bottles of chemicals and some test tubes, but all the described experiments amounted to "watch the colors change." Dull.
By contrast, I have some books that were (based on the date) my dad's or grandfather's. Chock full of hideously dangerous stuff for "boys to do." I assume my dad's chemistry set would have been similar.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
Anyway I agree that dangerous toys shouldn't be allowed on the market, and I think most people would if the issue was put up in less contentious terms. For instance I'm sure 99% of Slashdot is opposed to toys made with lead-based paint. The author is waxing nostalgically about children having easy access to dangerous chemicals - like Seinfeld said, "I miss the days when they made toys that could kill a kid."
Seeing these "Government controls people by taking away the knowledge" posts - my god, take off your fucking tin-foil hat.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
So, does this mean that if I build a potato/tennis ball cannon out of soda cans, duct tape, and lighter fluid, that the black vans will show up and take me away?
;)
I use to have a great time with my old chemistry set. I turned my walk-in closet into my lab. I once managed to create something that coagulated ink then spent months trying to recreate that experiment with no success. Thus I learned to take good notes. BTW: I got straight A's in chemistry. I don't make drugs or things that blow up. Not anymore, anyway.
TheTiminator
This site is barely mild conversing on issues like this.
Please research David Icke videos on youtube and zeitgeistmovie.com.
And I realize that I have never been modded above 2 which is for the most part understandable, yet, yet. Slashdot will hold this record for me.
Your very own president and his banker friends and cohorts created 911 just for removing your freedom. The sad part is that you are going to write me off, or use your disbelief to just move along and consider it normal. The fact is is that 911 was an inside job and deserves criminal justice. I have much much more time to spend dilly dallying around researching these issues and now have found my long lost passions. They were smothered by these fears and disillusions drawn into your perception. I am not yelling or ranting at you, but what you and I need you aught to find soon hopefully. We were born free and live free. We take these responsibilities. There are so few terrorists to warrant any loss of freedom as the typical world finds today. Secondly, they aren't targeting you anyway. Your government creates these situations to gain your complacency and support. All those anthrax letters were sent to Democratic individuals as a sign to play ball. Truly, you must investigate. The time is not far off and I have spent my life boiling brain over issues that have been known and solved ages before your own taught history. I'm not mad, just want to rejoice with you, yet it involves the complete dissolving and dismantling of what is supposedly your author and gods. As a hint, it involves you exploiting every challenge placed as a fence. The fence certainly does not exist, and you shall not understand the mental structure. Okay, I love you.
Better understanding exists if you look up and spend a considerable time on youtube looking at
David Icke
Aaron Russo
jeeze just type 911 in youtube
Out of the Blue
zeitgeistmovie
and others,, a real abbreviated version that aught to make any individual with a heart nearly faint is... type
aaron russo rockefeller
Love Syn
Anyone else gliding along in labor and ready to absorb some beauty and pain can slide on over to youtube and type
Bringers of the Dawn
I'll see you in the energy
Damn I love you
Terrorists don't care about our quality of life. Terrorists don't even care about us being in fear, insofar as it doesn't directly aid them in their goal - to establish an Islamic state over the whole US. That is the end goal of modern day terrorism, to weaken us as a nation in any way they can for eventual domination.
Yes it sucks that we are overreacting by taking away dangerous chemical sets - but who is to say this is overreacting to terrorists? For decades now things like fireworks and chemistry sets have slowly been hamstrung until we have nothing interesting yet. This is all being done by a government (local and national) that long before terrorists became a hot-button, have been worried about our well-being and that we might take an eye out, for crying out loud!
By tying things like overly safe chemistry sets to the supposed goals of terrorists, you are no better than those trying to impose restrictive measures on us in the name of terrorists. Whenever the threat of terrorism dies down the threat of an overly protective government remains, and it does us no good to incorrectly diagnose problems as being do to external forces or reactions to them when they are not the direct cause.
You want to help fix things? Fight for smaller government, for fewer regulations at all levels. Fight for reasonable restrictions on things when some restrictions are called for (and sometimes they do make sense).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
lol, what a bunch of fucking idiots. I'll try to remember this in a few years when I'll see some guy on TV going "Americans suck at science, the only good scientists we have come from abroad", although you can already hear that.
That new thing is *not* gonna help..
You just got troll'd!
The government has nuked our imagination. Crap.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Along the same lines, went to a major chain recently (the wife's car) and they recommended having the air filter changed because it was dirty. 40$.
Air filter was replaced 500 miles before for a total cost of 9$ and my 5 minutes. I'd be willing to lay money down that they didn't even crack the cover on the filter. Heck, the car has less than 15,000 miles on it. I'm actually impressed they didn't recommend the flush and fill too.
Karnal
I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
I know at least one Ph.D. in Chemistry working for the military whose interest in the field was sparked by a Chemistry set he got for his birthday. Is this a case of our government shooting itself in the foot in the interest of exerting control in the place of creating a truly secure environment through diplomacy?
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand" - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
The death of the chemistry set. . .just another step in keeping the public stupid and afraid. I guess the future of medicine and other sciences will end up completely in government control. We need to stand up as a nation every time they step over the line, and ship these idiots off to China or Iraq, where they would be more at home.
It's still not too late, but that time is drawing swiftly near.
Sounds just like high-school when I wouldn't bring a pen or pencil. I would always tell my Teachers that I didn't bring one because it could be used as a weapon, even though it is a tool for used for education, and presentation. This really makes me sad.
Indoctrinate : to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments Educate : to develop mentally, morally, or aestheti
The "tyranny of the minority" you refer to can mean two different things.
If you refer to the rich and powerful controlling the country, then it is called an oligarchy and is nothing new. The US constitution specifically tried to address one form of oligarchy, although the success at preventing less overt forms is debatable. In particular, you must be very careful about the means and ideology you choose at fighting oligarchy, or you might end up following this guy. Also see this proof that we'll be fucked no matter how we act.
On the other hand, you could be referring to the vocal minority problem, which, true, was not addressed in the constitution because they were not a problem at the time, but thanks to which we now live in the wonderful world of (insert-continent-here)-Americans, whites-first-is-racism-but-blacks-first-isn't, and inability to ever get anything done except through force.
The kid isn't learning chemistry. The kid just mixes up random crap, hoping for something exciting to happen.
Even with an old-style set, interesting reactions are rare. If you are "lucky" enough to get one, you might get hurt... but you don't really learn the chemistry behind it. You aren't learning about orbitals, ions, electronegativity, and all those other things. At best you learn that mixing two items, of which you understand nothing, will do something beyond just sitting there.
Pretty soon, you run out of chemicals. The useful ones run out first.
That's not much education, and not even much entertainment. That's just lame.
Or you have things like this.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
If their goal is truly to establish an Islamic state over the whole US, then I'd like to have some of what they're smoking, because no drug I have ever tried (and I've tried most of them) has ever led me to such nonsensical thoughts. It will never ever happen, it is so far from happening as to be more realstic that, oh, I dunno, turkeys are REALLY made out of blue feces, and, oh yeah, and the terrorists' current tactics (namely, terrorism) produces the exact opposite of what you claim they are demanding - that is, rather than a sympathy for their position (sympathy for the devil), instead a hardening against them.
Are there really people in the world THAT stupid? I've met smarter rocks than that.
Oh, and the way to fight them is simple - fight religion.
Sad, but very true, is your post. I by no means believe it to be a conspiracy, but the Consumers are expected to know less about everything while using more than ever before. The Consumers provide economic means for the wealthy, like serfs did for their lords.
But, to get back on topic, I once had a chemistry set in the 1970's. While it was some fun, most of the interesting experiments involved mail order chemicals which were too expensive for my family. But, there was still fun to be had, separating firecrackers to make large ones and electrolysis to make very small amounts of hydrogen. Nothing steals the show at a elementary science fair like a nice boom from a jar of water. Four years later, the same experiment was considered too dangerous, in the same school district.
Somewhere along the way we became incredibly adverse to taking risks. And if you do not risk anything, you do not gain anything. You remain a serf.
"What luck for the rulers that men do not think." - Adolph Hitler
The new ones use thick plastic tubes.
The old wooden ones could puncture a rectum. Not that I would know about that.
"I'm sure someone, somewhere got hurt on them, but not if they were using them carefully. They weren't really sharp, outta the box."
The Commission has been considering the hazard associated with lawn darts for some time. An estimated 670 lawn dart-related injuries were treated in hospital emergency rooms each year from 1978 to 1987. Over three-fourths of the victims were younger than 15 years old and about 50 percent were ten years of age or younger. More than half of the victims had injuries to the head, eye, ear or face.
via:
http://brookings.injury.findlaw.com/defective-dangerous-products/recall.feeds/cpsc/1988/03/88012.html
These things didn't have to be sharp to puncture kids' skulls, and I think it's unfair to criticize sub-ten year olds for 'not using them carefully', considering they could have just been lousy throwers.
I'm not for surrounding kids in cotton wool, and I"m pro-chemistry set, but I think any childrens' toy that involves throwing a heavy, spike-tipped dart up in the air is kind of stupid, litigous society or no.
Billy Johnson, age 8, was arrested Monday at his home, after an anonymous tip to authorities indicated that he was planning on causing a volcanic eruption using common household ingredients like vinegar and baking soda. His 6-year-old sister, Sally, was seen pointing and laughing at the young terrorist as he was led away in chains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite
Sodium hypochlorite is a strong oxidizer. Products of the oxidation reactions are corrosive. Solutions burn skin and cause eye damage, particularly when used in concentrated forms. However, as recognized by the NFPA, only solutions containing more than 40% sodium hypochlorite by weight are considered hazardous oxidizers. Solutions less than 40% are classified as a moderate oxidizing hazard (NFPA 430, 2000).
Write a book on how to use household chemicals to learn chemistry. I am pretty sure that in the US their 1st amendment covers this as long as it doesn'
t describe stuff like killing people and bomb building(leads to killing people sometimes)
Diesel fuel and nitrogen based fertilizers (dried urine) seem to work for all those crazies to blow stuff up. Maybe they will ban peeing on the farm too?
---- aut viam inveniam aut faciam
I believe the word you're looking for is "fraught"
-uso.
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
Every time we do something stupid that takes away another piece of our freedom, the terrorists win another victory. I don't know how many more battles we can lose before the whole war is lost but it can't be much more. The sad thing is that so many people are blind to this or just don't care. Perhaps that is what makes the defeat all the more imminent.
if we don't teach our kids chemistry, they won't become threats to america
just wait until they find out about math
This dumbing down of chemistry sets has been happening for about 40 years. I received one of the last decent ones when I was a kid back in 1970, and it was a German one because the American ones had already dumbed them down.
The dumbing down happened because of our sue-happy society, and it continues as now schools have removed swing sets, etc.
...in that every single article summary has bugfuck NOTHING to do with the article. This is why anyone of even the barest intellect hardly comes here anymore. I'm down to one peek a week.
There's nothing here about the FBI or terrorists.
What's even better is the other posters who go off on thier "Bush iz leeder of teh nazzzi!" trip without even RTFA.
What's next? Cassette tapes have fallen out of favor because "the FBI thinks the tape could be used to strangle people on airplanes"?
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/31/222229
The parent post is correct. You can't expect a government to trust you if you don't trust them. It's the same dynamic in any relationship. It goes something like this:
People: We'll vote for you if you do X
Government: OK, we'll do X after next election
People: We don't trust you to do X after you're elected
Government: We don't trust you to vote for us
etc, etc...
The government ends up pandering to the voters who trust them, and who are thus more trustworthy, which exacerbates the problem for people who don't trust the government.
You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
Amusingly, although it's hard to get many chemicals today, you can buy gunpowder without any hassle. Search for "reloading supplies". Under US law, you can buy up to 50 pounds of gunpowder before you need a license.
Heck, 25+ years ago I had two different chemistry sets and even then my Dad (a chemical engineer) gave me that "*sniff* when I was a kid they had REAL chemistry sets!" bit.
I believe him too since he made real explosives and blew a chunk outa Grandpa's wall 40 years before - seriously. All I could do is burn stuff with the alcohol burners.
My point is, they damn things were pretty tame 25 years ago, what ya can't make copper from cupric sulfate now?
Claritin and Sudafed are victims of the "War on drugs", not the "War on Terror".
I thank God that MacGyver was produced when it was because, even though they left out key parts of all the dangerous stuff, there is no way they would have let that show even touch the air today.
Anyone can build a $2 bomb timer with a 555, a relay and a bunch of other components.
And what about building a radio remote to trigger the explosion of a car bomb?
Be careful that a common transformer driven by a couple mosfets can carry enough voltage and current to kill someone (yay! Tasers for the people!).
Oh, and I almost forgot an unshielded microwave oven will fry anybody nearby.
Hurry! Let's burn every electronics books before people learn how to do bad things!
On a side note, let's close all hardware stores before someone realizes a screwdriver can be used to kill people.
And what about nails? They were used to kill our almighty Jeeeeebus. OMG! Let's declare them illegal. We'll use rope and glue instead.
no text
Tech Public Policy stuff
Get a glass beer bottle, fill it with diet coke, drop in a few mentos, replace the cap and leave it in a high traffic area. While I would never want to anyone to do this, my point is, it doesn't take dangerous chemicals or even flammables to commit a terrorist act.
Given that 44,000 people die on our highways every year, you have much more to fear from the idiot driving next to you in his H2 talking on his cell phone than any foreign terrorist.
Having a citizenry fully aware that there are NOT any liquid explosives which can realistically be manufactured on an airplane makes it hard to spoon feed us the latest terrorist threat. If only we could find a way to stop kids from learning about such things.
well, if your idea of a healthy and normal relationship is between a person who deliberately spreads STDs and his targets, maybe.
Tech Public Policy stuff
we used to be able to safely get molested by priests, get blown up on our on time with our own chemistry sets, shoot anything with any gun, solve any problem with violence, not inconsistent chatter, drink and drive on our own time... now everything is a liability.... and our personal liabilities are the responsibilities of random insurance companies!! is there no personal responsibility anymore?
The old chemistry sets of the days long past were particularly nice for their easy-to-read and understand instructions for doing things, which was nice for kids to learn. But these days, most of those instructions are pretty easily found on the internet.
but the state of affairs you describe is the one where the terrorists in fact have won.
At that point, we have a government "terrorist sponsors" can deal with amicably without concerns as to whether the people will vote out of office legislators who voted for something like the deal to have an Arab government managing our ports.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Man I hope you are voting for Ron Paul!
Libertas in infinitum
In a nutshell: We dumb down things enough to make them boring. What makes chemistry fun? Well, duh, that you can create stuff that does neat stuff like explode, produce a ton of smoke, stink so the whole neighborhood knows about it, fizzles, sizzles and bubbles and does all that while melting something so impenetratable as some hard rock.
That made chemistry interesting. I blame my interest in chemistry partly on my chemistry teacher who showed us some quite interesting things (and almost blew up the school in the process), who said "and should this stuff here turn pink, dive for cover 'cause then it will explode violently soon, so pay attention, dammit!". And who let us join in the experiments. He had me hooked when he let me torch off the soap bubbles filled with hydrogen.
Now, I'm pretty sure he'll be out of the school within days if he still did that. And what's left? Learning lifeless formulas and maybe once in a blue moon watch some kind of movie where they show some experiment. Woo hoo. Wake me when it's over.
I don't even blame terrorism for that. The whole crap started long before 9/11. It's the whole attempt to wrap our kids in bubblewrap instead of explaining the world to them and teach them how to be safe. Instead of preparing our children for life, we want to shelter them from it. That doesn't work out. It's better to skin your knees when you're a kid, so you learn it's not a good idea to break hard on loose clippers with your bike than to get killed when you don't know it and do the same with your motorcycle later.
We just don't let our kids skin their knees anymore. We keep them in teletubbyland and hope they never get out of it. Well, they will. They will move out and you release them unprepared, gullible and clueless into a world waiting to cheat, trick and abuse them. Great service you're doing to your kids, really.
If you want to protect your kids, prepare them. You can't shelter them from reality forever.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Straight loratidine isn't a problem. It's the version with ephedrine (Claritin D) which is one of the precursors for meth that's behind the counter. Whether or not regular Claritin would have worked for the guy or not is something I have no idea about. The regular product works just fine for me, and there's a bottle of the generic in my bedroom right now.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Around the age of 10, my cousin and I found a set of lawn darts in our grandmother's attic. After the initial appeal of playing the game proper wore off, we decided to see just how high we could throw the things. It was becoming dark outside, so visibility was becoming limited, but a competition was still underway. It was my throw, and as I was behind pointwise, I switched to a volatile underhanded throw. Both my cousin and I lost sight of the dart about 15 yards into the ascent, but it soon became startlingly clear that it was bearing down straight on top of him. It missed his skull by mere inches, and had it hit it probably would have killed him. We gathered up the darts and threw them in the trash.
Those things were *extremely* dangerous.
I, for one, am looking forward to the inevitable
Get the torrent of "The Golden Book of Chemistry".
Banned: The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments (1960)
Back in the late 60's this book was pulled from all public libraries and store shelves by the government. It was said that the experiments and information contained herin were too dangerous for the general public. How'd I luck up on a copy? Well, a friend of mine who could remember checking out and reading the book when he was a kid, thought he would try to find a copy for himself just for sentimental reasons. To his surprise this book is extremely rare and expensive if you do find a copy for sale. With books going from $375 for a very damaged copy to upwards of $2,000 for a decent copy he knew it would be a task. So he enlisted my help, and a couple of weeks later I just happened to find a copy at an old library book sale. So I purchased this book in great condition at a considerable discount. I sold it to him for a profit (of course), but before I let go of it I felt that the information contained herin needs to be shared. I submit to you the only electronic copy of The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments in existance...
The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments (1960)
Brent, Robert
A review:
Chemistry at its best. (March 10, 2004)
Reviewer: M. Petnuch "stratofort" (Richton Park, IL United States)
Hard to find, (and very costly if you do) is the original 1960 edition of this book. It seems to have gained infamy since the 1995 incident near Detroit of child chemist, David Hahn. With the release of a full scale book this month by author Ken Silverstein called 'The Radioactive Boyscout', which details this nuclear incident, the popularity of this early chemistry 'how to do it' book will only grow. The early edition is known for its 50's style simplicity where chemical wastes and pollution were never a concern to Americans, certainly not in the age of 'better living through chemistry'!!! Thoroughly interesting and full of ideas and inspiration, it is the bible for any young chemist-in-training. You will enjoy.
I understand this statement skirts the edge of the bottomless pit that is sexism, but it makes good points about the disappearance of the american middle class and needs a mod-up.
.. and have irreversibly put us down the path toward the third world nations.
cory doctorow talks about how the dot-bomb era politicians sold us out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgXwmXpaH2Q
(watch it all)
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
Hmmmmm.....
.....I wonder if it is still legal to put baseball cards in the spokes of my bicycle wheels.....
Dry Ice and pop bottles.
Cap guns. (I had a metal and wood 'revolver'-model one that used the old school paper-tape caps.
Potato guns.
BB guns.
Slingshots.
Laser pointers.
Swiss Army knives.
Chemistry sets.
Squirt guns.
I'll bet X-Ray Specs are banned next. The DHS may consider them a potent terrorist weapon or "Dual Use" because they could be used to look into restricted Government/Military areas OR through the clothing of attractive women.
Why don't they pull their heads out of their asses and ACTUALLY PROTECT US FROM:
Nuclear materials in the hands of nutjob regimes.
Drug cartels.
Organized crime.
Domestic Terrorism (KKK, Black Panthers, Eco-Terrorists).
Safety of American citizens abroad.
Terrorist Cells
Terrorist "Front Companies"
Groups who try to stop nuclear fuel/waste shipments from reaching their destinations. (Like its *MUCH* safer stuck on the side of the road.)
Illegal Aliens streaming over the border.
Additionally banned but NOT by the DHS,
Books. (Yes, some books are banned from schools. "Where's Waldo?" is actually among them. God forbid I read something someone somewhere finds offensive.)
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
HAND ON? I am quite curious...
If terrorism means: "To force political change through fear.", then I've got a sneaking suspicion who is winning the war on terrorism. Why would you outlaw chemistry sets, but still sell guns in supermarkets though?
The lawyers won long ago, not the terrorists. Chemistry sets of 2000 were nothing like the chemistry sets of the 1970s. Or maybe it wasn't the lawyers, but "do gooders" trying to save the children.
Or you could spit in the face of anyone you know that voted for Bush and pro-Bush congressman in the last election.
Since chemistry sets kill people, not people, logically it follows that the following should also be banned/neutered
...
1) Guns
2) Computers
3) Fertilizer
4) Cars and Trucks
5)
...already illegal. And, oh yeah, make it legal for adult human beings to make their own firecrackers a safe distance from other humans. If you blow someone up, that's illegal, though. That'll punish people who hurt others, while leaving us free to do chemistry (or make firecrackers and do drugs). Making meth in your apartment? Illegal. Making it in your home on 20 acres? Legal. Now we can buy Sudafed again.
...And if someone got blown up? Well, it'd happen. It'd be a lot rarer than the deaths from stress and boredom whatnot that are brought on by the stress of living in an unfree and increasingly police-state-like world, I'd wager. But it'd happen. You know what? It would be sad. And if someone else did it to him, we'd put him in jail. Sure, we could've stopped every single other person from making firecrackers, but then we wouldn't have our freedom. And, to top it off, the people who really wanted to blow people up -- which is most of the people who'd blow people up even if it were legal to make firecrackers -- are going to do it even if it's illegal to possess the necessary equipment. Guess what? They don't care -- cause they were going to do something illegal (and truly criminal) anyways.
Did you know that the ingredient in Adderall is amphetamine? So... they make the 8 year olds take amphetamine, but the 30 year olds have to show their ID to take Claritin, for the fear that some other 30 year old (or 8 year old) might actually get his hands on some methamphetamine. (Of course, the 8 year old is already on amphetamine, so...)
We could even do drugs while making firecrackers with our chemistry set -- a safe distance from others. Why? 'Cause we're adults in what would be (and should be) a free country! We could even take some pills to die if we were sick (rather than have the Congress investigate just how mushy and/or non-existent my brain-dead brain is because of some Christian dictum that is unapologetically introduced into the dialogue by successful politicians into the political process in our supposedly secular country to limit our freedom. It's absurd. They won't stop -- whether it's guarding the state (unsuccessfully) at the expense of essential liberty, or imposing Christian morality through legislation, they just don't quit.)
So... what are we left with? A world without freedom AND with the same problems. A couple more fingers on hands, but no fewer terrorists and a lot more exploding meth labs. (More than the roughly ZERO you'd encounter if we legalized drugs for adults. We could stop giving serious drugs to kid, too. Or at least stop letting government controlled public schools force relatively healthy ADD kids to take drugs. Basically, if the medicine the government thinks that what a kid needs is speed, the problem isn't serious enough that they should have the power to force him to take amphetamines!! Feed the kids speed, and don't let the adults get at decongestants that could be used to make speed. Brilliant.)
Has anyone else thought of this, or was it just me?
It seems like they think that because the world is dangerous, we must reduce freedoms to try to mitigate that.
How odd! It's not practical (because we barely put a mark on the danger factor) and it's hateful towards everything I thought decent adult human beings were about. Namely FREEDOM! Freedom, to live this -- you do remember, it's the only one we get? -- life. One try. And someone else is going to tell me how I must spend it if I want to live outside of a cage. Thanks. Do not pass go. Do not collect two hundred dollars.
This is America, WHAT HAPPENED TO FREEDOM!
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
We've really f'ed it up, people were so inattentive and complacent, that they let the government take our freedom. Unbelievable. And now they have the technology to do it.
Why couldn't I have been born 150 years ago???? I could've used drugs for 70 years, and mad
Smoking. You can smoke as much as you wish, outside, in your own car, at your home, for all I care you can breath in a permanent smog, at your own private places. But as soon as you go in a public place(*), then you are blowing YOUR smoke in MY lung. In such case the government was right to step in and forbid it. You wanna exhale your poisons ? Do it where I won't have to be forced to inhale it...
(*) public place being defined in my own country as place where a member of the public can have access without invitation. Example : private place open to public like restaurants and shops, governmental facilities and buildings, transportation, etc...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
There is no URL in your post.
With the widespread fear of hackers out there, mathematics and electronics will be next. Then we can truly become a nation of entertainers.
I don't really see how this is supposed to help against terrorism. All the items and chemicals you get in a chemistry set, you can also get somewhere else. Even tough I have never had a chemistry set I think it can be a very good learning experience for those who have one. This is like banning cars in order to stop accidents...
Most of us survived- even thrived!
And no, I would not think that a few smelly dead kids were worth as much as my Bag O Glass. The dead kids weren't much fun to play with anyhow...and had pesky flies on them.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Is it not more because of the increase in litigation that chemistry sets have become less and less hazardous ? I would wager that this is so - rather than because of fear of terrorism. You can rub all sorts of things in your eyes, get rashes, be slightly poisoned... Just one case and a lawsuit-happy parent is all it takes to bring down a toymaker, you know.
Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
Step 1: Find out what was supplied in an old chemistry set.
Step 2: Find out what's supplied in the current version of the same one.
Step 3: Compare.
Step 4: Walk away with a list of common chemicals that the government thinks is dangerous.
Step 5: Tell all terrorists that they shouldn't do this, because people will think they're naughty and anti-social.
Step 6: Say "Hi" to your local Homeland Security rep at your next yard sale. He'll be hanging out by the toy table.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
The story is tagged "theterroristshavewon" and it's completely true. Just think of all the freedom we've lost since 9/11.
Mission complete Osama!
United Nuclear
Well some one beat me to the punch on this. Good luck trying to find the more restrictive elements however, theres an unfinished tutorial on how to extract pure uranium from bulk ore, now all they need to do is show how to make centrifuges and a nuclear reactor. Although I almost got the chance to help design a lead cooled reactor.
You can also try this set, but I would rather have my own reactor in my backyard selling power, granted Nevada power doesn't pay jack squat after a certain amount when it comes to selling power from alternative sources.
C3000 Set
He was based on the appearance of the Walther P-38. That got lost in politically correct translation when Hasbro released the Generation 2 transformer toys. They turned him into a giant tank -- which was also completely off-scale since he was the size of a combiner robot and couldn't possibly do a 1-on-1 battle with Optimus Prime. This, more than anything else, is why I'm against gun control -- it breeds pointless stupidity at the same rate as any other parental action. I think this deserves to be a meme right up there with Han shooting first. MEGATRON IS A HANDGUN!
doesnt it worry anyone that the person who wrote this lied a little? he says 'Unfortunately the FBI has decided that home chemistry sets are a threat to national security and they are rapidly disappearing from the market entirely' but they arent banning chemistry sets, just seems to me that they are placing restrictions on chemicals regardless of amount. its just inconvenience that is ther now, but it doesnt change the fact that who wrote the article LIED!
Although I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, it looks like a rather specific definition of terrorism: those who wish to establish an Islamic state in the USA.
Athy, athier, athiest.
Read the blog...the teaser suggesting the FBI is banning home chemistry sets isn't even supported. As if the FBI could ban them. Under what legal authority? Get real.
"...if you think you can sit back and let things happen just because you're packing heat, my god you're so very, very wrong."
That's certainly true, but don't get sloppy:
"...so, as long as all you nut-job Americans have guns, it's all ok."
Do you think all Americans are nut-jobs? Do you think all Americans agree on gun issues, or even care? Do you think anyone who supports gun ownership is therefore a nut-job?
Some Americans are nut-jobs.
Some Americans support gun ownership.
Not all American nut-jobs support gun ownership.
Not all American supporters of gun ownership are nut-jobs.
Personal weapons (firearms, or anything else) are useful for defending against individual humans committing armed assault, but not so much against a standing government. Even as a measure of last resort-- are a bunch of citizens going to get into a firefight with government-loyal army units? Of course not. An armed rebellion is one armed force versus another; otherwise it's called a police action or government crackdown, and the conclusion is foregone.
...it's about reducing the fear of low mod points.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
to a corrupt government, are intelligent and educated people.
But when you do, you're labelled another domestic terrorist gun-owning nut-job.
Awfully hard for freedom-lovers to stand up against that kind of PR, thanks to the rabidly anti-gun media.
Constitutionally Correct
When I was nine years old, me and my cousin thought it would be awesome to sneak up and mix a bunch of chemicals together and boil the container over the included candle. Well, a few minutes after the goop was boiling, it blew up sending browninsh liquid everywhere. Might I mention we were in the living room. Well, me and Josh spent the next few hours cleaning before my parents woke up. I think it was about half an hour after we finished (just in time) cleaning and had gone to bed, we were woken up by my parents yelling. Boy they were PISSED! Apparently we didn't think to clean the ceiling! That was almost twenty years ago and I swear there are still a few brown spots on my Mother's ceiling.
Growing up in the eighties was awesome!
You miss the point. My 87-year-old arthritic grandfather is still dangerous with a gun. Any would-be burglars or government freedom-grabbers would do well to be afraid of him. If he only had a knife...well, easy pickins.
Constitutionally Correct
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Your mistake is thinking there is such a thing as an unbiased news source. Tip for you: they're all biased. The real thing is exercising a little discernment and critical thinking!
Constitutionally Correct
There was something like this for the BBC computer, about 20 years ago. You were given a "sample" of a randomly-chosen chemical (an acid, alkali or salt) and had to perform various "tests" on it (litmus paper, heat it, stick it in a flame, add acid and so forth) and were given the results of the tests ("You heat the sample. It smells of ammonia." -- meaning we must be dealing with an ammonium salt; now we have to find out what the negative ion is).
It was not a bad idea per se, but it was let down by a "scoring system" which was essentially random (rewarding lucky guesses). Also, it was nothing like the real thing.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Are they going to start taking away diesel fuel and fertilizer? The Works toilet boil cleaner and tin foil? Dry ice? I can think of a lot more "dangerous" substances being sold in stores now more so than 100 mg bottles of ammonium chloride and copper sulfate. I always figured that the chemistry sets would be pulled from the shelves one day, not because of anti-terrorism measures, but because most of today's kids are idiots. A quick view of Youtube shows that there are some kids out there that could probably kill themselves with a bottle of distilled water, more less "real" chemicals. Plus, in out ever-growing litigious society, the companies making the kits would probably be sued right into the ground. Back when I was growing up, when I f-ed up with my chemistry set, it was my fault; now, when a kid, not following directions, chemically burns himself, he gets millions in a lawsuit.
It wasn't just government regs that changed all this but law suits.
With the "CYA" mindset, toy makers have had to dumb down their
science sets. You can still get test tubes and some other glasswares
in hobby shops and school supply stores that cater to the science classes.
Various bits of glassware ARE hard to find because you could make "bongs"
or "hookers" out of them.
JOKE: did you hear about the hillbilly terrorist dirty bomb? (A bag of
horse shit with a stick of dynamite in it).
Comment removed based on user account deletion
But see, that's part of the point: these things have gone away *because* we no longer have the promise of parental oversight; it's just another thing people want the government to do.
When children have children, no traditions are passed. Wisdom from grandparents and great grandparents is lost. And the bottom line is that people who are too immature to have children have had three before they get old enough to know better.
It's irony that creation of these children actually has had a harmful effect on mankind as a whole more than the loss of a few children. Now, thanks to acceptance of pregant teens in high school, we now have an ARMY of children without fathers. We have entire divisions of people who can't adequately keep a job, manage their money, or discipline children.
So to answer your flippant and let's face it, hateful response: are a few dead children worth it? You'd better believe it. Because abortions alone cost 40,000,000 dead children, born to children who couldn't handle it. Because a major fraction of our numbers live in poverty, and yet more feel lost and overwhelmed with daily life. And here I thought it was cruel to shun the accidentally-pregnant back in the day.
--- For a good time mail uce@ftc.gov
Thanks to people refusing to take responsibility for themselves and a government and court system that back them, there hasn't been a decent chemistry set in about 20 years.
Thanks stupid people and product liability lawsuits.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Coincidentally i just finished reading Radioactive Boy Scout.
It is an amazing story by itself, and waaay beyond the dumb chemistry...
I mean come on if a boy could build a FBR in his backyard, why can't we do the same?
Disclaimer: This boy did it before Bush and his group of paranoid Darth Vaders took over. If her had done it today, the FEMA, FBI not to mention the secret service would have taken the boy to Gitmo and our wonderful AG would have crowed to FOX News about how an Al-Qaeda network about to be started was bashed...and FOX News would have spread more bad info...
The book info is here here: http://www.amazon.com/Radioactive-Boy-Scout-Frightening-Homemade/dp/0812966600/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8603431-1875920?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193921696&sr=8-1
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
No, lawn darts didn't go away "because we no longer have the promise of parental oversight." They went away because they were hazardous, were responsible for several deaths, and because one man whose daughter died because of a negligently designed product made it his mission to see that it didn't happen again.
As for the rest of what you said, it has no relation whatsoever to my response.
I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
It's right here here between sheepweevik and sheepweevim
Signed,
Not the FBI
Amusingly enough, they recorded my purchase of black powder (for antiques). But Pyrodex and modern synthetic substitutes can be sold off the shelf because they are 'technically' not gunpowder.
Oh, and I couldn't help but notice that what used to be $8 a tin is now $14 a tin.....
Chemistry sets were toys even in the early 70's, with silly "experiments" to change the colors of solutions and such. I found that to do anything interesting I had to go out and find my own materials, such as saltpeter or powdered zinc. Or more sulphur than the teaspoon-full they put in a bottle that was clearly made for more. For some materials the empty bottles left over from the lame demos came in handy for storage.
So how about a "safe" chemistry set which just has empty bottles, and you have to get the contents yourself from somewhere else. They could even sell the materials for the "safe" demos separately (a chance for added markup?)
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -- William Butler Yeats
Household cleaners? Better ban those, along with vinegar, drain cleaner, battery acid, peroxide, baking soda, etc.. Hell, they should just ban every element on the periodic table.
This is a conspiracy by the makers of Lincoln Logs(tm).
Tinkertoys are some of the greatest toys ever made!
Simple in design and use. But with a little imagination they could become practically anything.
I remember making tinkertoy AT-ATs that would "transform" into flying transports with a quick modification.
Ah, memories of the "good ole days"!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Chemistry sets started being castrated a long time back, a decade before 2001 at least. It was more a perceived child safety issue (a.k.a. overprotection) than any links with terrorism.
They are quite aware of the mayhem that can be produced with gasoline. They are working on eliminating it by replacing it with vegetable oil, diesel, battery power, etc.
A method that would allow us to choose between more than two players would, of course, be too complicated for us wielders of Ultimate Democratic Power to comprehend
What makes you think that that works any better? Germany has half a dozen parties in government, and they are passing laws that are just as restrictive as in the US. Furthermore, the Nazis came to power in Germany in part as a result of a system that encouraged many small parties.
The sad thing is that, given a choice, the average voter is mostly motivated by fear: fear of terrorism, fear of foreigners, fear of competition, fear of change. And politicians running for office know how to take advantage of that fear.
But lousy as democracy may be, it still is far superior to the alternatives. And the two party system in the US, for all its flaws and problems, has been more stable and successful than other systems elsewhere.
The only way to improve things is to educate and improve your fellow citizens; there are no shortcuts, no fancy voting systems, or any of that.
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there How did they expect those bombs and rockets to be built without chemistry sets?
I often have to admire to what people put into their national anthems.
Should words and prayers have ANY power in them... oh boy.
UK would have a nearly immortal queen. God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen. Germans used to almost call for misfortune: Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Und im Unglück nun erst recht.
Nur im Unglück kann die Liebe
Zeigen, ob sie stark und echt.
Und so soll es weiterklingen
Von Geschlechte zu Geschlecht:
Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Und im Unglück nun erst recht.
Germany, Germany above all
And in misfortune all the more.
Only in misfortune can love
Show if it's strong and true.
And so it should ring out
From generation to generation:
Germany, Germany above all,
And in misfortune all the more. That is when the Nazies came and replace the anthem. XD
My personal favorite (that being my anthem for quite some time) would have to be the national anthem of pre-1992 Yugoslavia. SFRJ that is.
Besides being a copy, it had a verse in it cursing "every traitor of the home/father-land".
And then in the early '90s those same people that called out for a curse over the "traitors of homeland" their entire lives, broke up the country into a bunch of smaller states and started killing each other.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Don't forget, that now even Jr. High School
You link directs to a story about HIGH SCHOOL not Jr High School, which is a significant difference.
No, they are not the same, nor are they comparable.
So no, it's nothing like that at all.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
entry level college course... chem 101... This person says that about 5% of the people who walk into his class without it being the 2cd time to take it, have no idea what is involved in chemistry, and even lack the basic math to do many calculations. So lets see... its probably been around 5 years since chem sets have had their "balls chopped off" so lets just wait a generation and see how those poor saps do when they are forced to take chem as a prereq for something non-related to chemistry in the first place.
Dammit - where do I get those kind of chemistry sets?!?! when I was a kid all mine did was make crystal meth.
While I don't truly doubt most of the claims of the article, in the link to "embarrassing" sets available now, there is one example which does seem to include the things he complains are missing (e.g. alcohol burner, sulfur): http://www.discoverthis.com/chem-c3000.html
Of course, it's also the most expensive item there, and the others do look pretty smarmy and pathetic. Still, while it looks like there is a "war on science" here, it doesn't seem to be completely lost yet.
Erskin
geek.
Do YOU feel safer?
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
;-)
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
Truth in advertising should apply to government as well as businesses. So, I call for all instances of eagle imagry in the federal government to be replaced by a quivering chicken with his wings covering his eyes. Now, we just need a new last line for the national anthem. Perhaps something from sir Robin's minstrels will fit.
Supposedly many of the chemicals under ones sink or in the garage are suitable for making weapons. Most chemistry sets are milder than this.
"Have fun in your little made-up universe where the government comes to round you up and you manage to fight it off."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba
Yeah, no one's ever been able to do that.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
http://www.50bmgstore.com/50bmgcurrentprices.htm
THAT is an example of these "civilian weapons" you're dismissing.
And you're an idiot for doing so.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
"The pharmacist asked for a CA driver's license. He said he doesn't drive anymore but has his VA card. She wouldn't sell it to him. Said she had to put the CA driver's license number in the database. No other's allowed."
She made a mistake.
"A veteran of WWII or perhaps Korea couldn't buy a fucking harmless medication because he doesn't have the right ID?"
Wrong, he couldn't buy it because the clerk was misinformed.
I like the rant, but it's toothless when gaged against the reality of the situation.
"This country disgusts me more and more."
Me too, but my disgust stems from the rampant ignorance masked by vitriolic bluster.
Like yours.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
if commercial sets are too tame, there's always the internets (note archive.org link)
buy chemicals here (...while you can -- the feds are actively working to shut this guy down)
btw, chemistry sets were lame even 30 years ago. the chemicals they came with were things like alum, lime, aspirin, melting salt
and a link to click on if you fear your government more than terrorism (vote in the PRIMARY dammit -- before the repub. machine grinds up Paul and spits him out; like the dem. machine did to howard dean)
There is no reason to go to such great lengths as removing a child chemistry set from the stores. I am sure that any terrorist that would be using a chemistry set from the toy store would also want to purchase the 'lil terrorist costume - sold separately. Very easy to spot walking down the street.
I had one of the "dangerous" sets when I was a kid. There were experiments where you added different chemicals to see a flame turn colors, mixed reactive substances to feel the warmth generated by the chemical reaction, and other "dangerous" activities. But in the mid 80's when I bought a top-of-the-line set for a younger relative, it was already dumbed-down and "safe." It has more to do with the litigatious nature of "modern" America than some terrorist blowing up San Francisco with a paperclip and 3 tablespoons of sulfur.
Nice Anti-establishment FUD though.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
All I see is a political rant. I see nothing to indicate that the FBI has banned chemistry sets. I think it's far more likely that manufacturers don't want to make chemistry sets because of liability issues. If you're going to post such an article, let's have some decent sources to back up the "facts".
Proverbs 21:19
"Have fun in your little made-up universe where the government comes to round you up and you manage to fight it off."
You said that. I addressed it.
Did you read my post where I QUOTED WHAT YOU SAID before you asked if I read what you said?
That would have answered your question before you made an ass of yourself by asking it.
I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
In the early 70s I got a Chemistry set for my 11th Birthday. It had lots of things that would be banned today (let's grind up sulphur and potassium permanganate together - you've now made solid rocket fuel, pack it in a tube and light one end for a great show), but claimed to be safe as long as you didn't add anything not in the set.
One day I decided to try to make my very own hydrochloric acid, by heating calcium hypochlorite (I think - this was over 30 years ago) and sodium chloride (not in set) and bubbling the evolved gas through water. The resulting explosion embedded glass in all the walls. There were acid burns on the table, the floor, my clothes and my hand.
I later won a University Medal for work in Science. I like to think there's a connection.
...when there's some new posting about Natalie Portman you guys can slashdot the server into submission in under five minutes. Why the heck can't you create a slashdot effect on the *polls* and vote these suckers out?
I fully back this appropriate action, taken in the name of National Security®. I also feel very strongly that all images of children playing with chemistry sets in TV shows, video games, and coloring books be banned or destroyed (by non-chemical means). Dexter, you're on notice.
Geeks like to think that they can ignore politics, you can leave politics alone, but politics won't leave you alone.-rms
Now is the time
That is an awesome post.
Government paranoia denying private citizens access to scientific tools will lead to a decline the rate of technological advancement. I'm reminded of how ridiculous 19th-century British laws regarding solid-fuel rockets have hampered amateur rocketry here.
In a more extreme case, secrecy and paranoia about nuclear technology has led to a decline in the use of nuclear power at a time when we need it the most, and has prevented us exploring nuclear propulsion for space travel.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
My worst childhood chemistry accident happened not from my chemistry set (in spite of it containing a cyanide compound), but when I was trying to clean an unrelated stain on my bedroom carpet, with everyday household cleaning liquids. At first, I put dish soap on the stain, but that didn't seem to be doing the trick. So, then, I added a little bleach. Oddly, the dish soap must have had a small amount of ammonia in it, because hello, chlorine gas! That day, I learned an important lesson: Cleaning things is dangerous. Let the professionals do it.
If only I'd been playing with my chemistry set, instead!
Only damn reason I can think of for this stupid war: proving once and for all that the people who say random jerks with guns can't fight off an oppressive government with modern weapons and gazillions of dollars are completely full of shit.
I remember when I got my chemistry set. My parents probably thought it was a good idea to boost my interest in Science and keep me out of trouble! Well, they were right on the first count...
One day, while I was home alone, I decided to use my chemistry set. I went down to the basement, was smart enough to find a nice clear place on the floor, and added some alcohol to the the "burner". I then lit said burner, and was deciding what to mix, when I thought I saw something blue on the cement floor. Upon looking closer, I discovered there was a blue flame surrounding the glass bottle holding the alcohol for the "burner"!
Keeping in mind that my father was a volunteer fire-fighter, and had been the Captain of the Hook & Ladder Company some time around when this incident happened. Also, if I happened to do something really bad, my father was not against using a physical punishment.
Well, I knew I had to do something about the fire before it spread from the cement to something that had a better chance of burning all by itself, like the rest of the house! I found a bucket in the basement, ran some water from the water spout that was in the basement, and then went about containing the fire. I did this by surrounding the "burner" and the unexpectant flames with water on the floor. Luckily, it was out in short order, and no damage occurred.
I saved my father endless embarrassment from fire house ridicule, I saved a sharp pain in my butt, and I learned that alcohol on fire was not an easy thing to see!!!! And, all this without me making a decision as to what to mix!!!
I just want to put this out there, but I find it humorous and touching that the aggregate of slashdot users are more emotional and opinionated about toys over anything anything else today on the frontpage. Just shows how much we valued our learning through toys as children, how important it was for our development, and how important it will be for the future generations as well. Hopefully the US will revoke their attempt to ban chemistry sets and let kids be kids.
"It's the same nannies that want to tell you that you can't smoke in your house, or you can't have a big mac or supersize your fries. These people don't usually tend to be conservatives."
No shit these people don't tend to be conservatives. These people are figments of your imagination. People are not saying "you shouldn't be allowed smoke in your house". They are saying "you shouldn't be allowed to give children cancer". If you want to smoke in your house, don't have kids. Your freedom ends where it starts hurting innocents. Nobody is saying "you shouldn't be allowed to supersize your fries". They are saying "McDonalds shouldn't be allowed to contaiminate their fries with deadly chemicals and not bother mentioning this to you".
Quit pretending the whole world is out to get you and start listening to what people are actually saying.
What happened to "No Child Left Behind?" We wonder why we're falling behind in Chemistry!
the rampant ignorance masked by vitriolic bluster
+1 FUNNY
Everyone who reads your posting history should get a good kick out of that one.
hahaha, what a lousy country to live in that would make - next would be computers banned as they can be used by terrorist - I'm positive Bush has a computer!
Yes, and he is part of the liberal nanny state.
Why do people think of Bush as anything other than liberal? He advocates big, powerful government as the perfect solution to all of life's problems. He sees the "old ways" (i.e. the constitution) as short-sighted and limiting. He's all about newness and radical change and expensive projects.
Compare him to democrats like FDR or LBJ. The goals are different (i.e. feed the contractors, rather than feed the poor) but the attitude is identical. Anyone this radical, should be called "liberal."
What about this one:
My Eyes! The goggles do nothing!
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/safety/MSDS/CLOROX%20LIQUID%20BLEACH.htm
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I'm less concerned with chemistry sets than I am with the loss of access to many once common chemicals. Even competent adults find it difficult to impossible to obtain many chemicals just because someone "might" use them for something illegal or dangerous. In general people are not encouraged and sometimes not even permitted to perform experiments without a "proper" vocation. I guess the backyard scientist or inventor is becoming a lost breed. It's not just chemicals either, anything potentially dangerous seems prone to excessive regulation or prohibition. We just need to be protected from ourselves.
Long before the terrorism hysteria, chemistry sets were already on the way out... like the ambulance chasers and nanny staters were going to let kids play with potentially dangerous substances, terrorist threat or no terrorist threat.
The biggest manufacturers of the classic chemistry sets went out of buisness in the late 1980s, because of liability issues. It had nothing to do with terrorism.
If anything, the terrorist hysteria is going to help promote chemistry sets... because now it will be fashionable for the left to allow kids to have chemistry sets as a knee jerk counter reaction to the "war on terror", where as the left were pretty much the ones fighting for stricter regulations and liability on these types of things prior to 9/11.
Why am I not surprised that more and more complex chemistry and physics innovations now come from non-US citizens. You take away the tools for those things, and someone else who has them will gladly pick up the slack.
As an example, when we made stem cell research here in the US difficult by cutting governmental funding for it, the South Koreans seemed quit happy to pick up and run with the ball. As a result we will need to play catchup when those restrictions are eventually removed. By then, US based companies might not have the brainpower to do that. We'll need to try and import brains from elsewhere, or just write-off an entire industry. And that's just a single example among many.
These symptoms, along with the looming spectre of not-so-cheap liquid fuels are what convince me that the US will devolve into a "developing country" status within the next 10-15 years. It'll be interesting to hear the cry of anguish that the least common denominator-types let out when that day finally arrives.
At that point I'll bet that a hearty "I told you so" just won't be cutting it.
sulfur + fire = good times!
Even better times if you add some saltpeter to the mix.
Still better with some added sugar.
And so on...blowing stuff up is fun.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Adam Rogers did a segment on the castration of modern chemistry sets for the new Wired Science TV Show. http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/multimedia/2007/10/dangerous_science
"Whether you choose to believe me or not, I could care less. "
So you do care.
"At this point, I'm done feeding your troll-self. Regardless of your response, I am through discussing this matter with you. You aren't worth it."
In other words, you're lying and I caught you.
For someone who doesn't care about my opinion, you sure didn't hesitate to post your reply.
Snocone's post is not 'flamebait', and it's completely absurd it's at 0 and mine is at 5. It's wrong, but it's not flamebait, at least not any more than both my post and the post it's replying to.
Sometimes the slashdot groupthink is a little scary.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
understand this statement skirts the edge of the bottomless pit that is sexism,
I was describing the state of affairs of earlier decades as a historical observation, not meaning to imply that females should not work. I forgot the usual PC disclaimers. The point is that one of two parents could stay at home to watch kids. Which parent it is does not matter to this issue.
I apologize for not wording it more carefully.
Table-ized A.I.
that's a pretty unattractive combination of personality traits our lawmakers have going on.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
I agree with what you say. And we are very weak. So we should have laser focus on one and only thing, because we can't afford spreading our message not even a tiny bit. And still, it is just one long shot. Otherwise, it will be as you say. Big business controlling everything. My proposal is this:
There should be a cap on how much someone (human or business) can own.
In other words you could state it as 100% tax above some limit. Everything collected, should be redistributed equally. The above exterminates the very notion of "big players", which are the root of the problem (as power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely,etc.).
34
Before you start howling "OMG moderation abuse!!!!!!11!`~one1" keep in mind that the Slashdot community, and especially the moderators, support conduct like mine, although most of them will never actually say it. In the last two or so years abusing the moderation system, i've never been adversely affected by metamoderation. There are other forums where you can spout off your uneducated political views. You don't belong here.
Leave, stop funding the empire through your taxes and emmigrate somewhere more in line with your values.
There are 11 types of people, those who know unary and those who don't.
How would you recommend acquiring the materials needed to safely make thermite?
There are 11 types of people, those who know unary and those who don't.
A comment found in the OP link cites Edmunds Scientific as offering a great chemistry kit: get them while you can! Alarmed by this thread, I ordered one for myself. Gee, hope I can still take my scientific mind outside the country. Hate to wind up on that pesky no-fly list along with, what's it up to, sixty thousand other risky suspects, all for ordering a *real* chemistry set.
8 year old boy creates kitchen nuke, blows up school. I mean, COME ON! What's next?? Bleach and mothballs? Refined sugar and weed pellets? Lightbulbs and tapwater?** **These are not ingredients for making bombs, they're just examples of common household objects and chemicals used EVERY SINGLE DAY by YOUR MOM!
Operation Guillotine is in effect.
This is waaaay over the top. Sure, we might live in a world where terrorism is a major threat. But since when was an 8 year old kid a terrorist?
Wikileaks, no DNS
It is the hierarchy that makes large structures worthy of distrust. The large structure and the internal selection and promotion mechanisms subvert the character of the individual, thus larger entities require stronger accountability. That is: they need to prove themselves.
Result: all things being equal, we should trust them less.
Wikileaks, no DNS
Isn't there some law in your country, that makes mandatory for every children to have access to a proper education ?
One could argue that chemistry kits for kids are as important for their education as books, pencils, papers, maps, globe maps, internet access for encyclopedic research, etc.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
"By the people, for the people"?
I prefer the following quote by Thomas Jefferson - "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
Also "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security are deserving of neither." which is attributed to either Jefferson or Franklin, depending on where you find it.
Both are very very applicable to the current state of affairs."
Actually I believe the first quotes origin belongs to another Thomas with the last name of Paine. I do agree they are very applicable to our world today. One of my favorite quotes is by Franklin:
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin
And just in case you may sometimes, possibly in a moment of exhaustion, think we are all wasting our time when we challenge things we see as unjust and detrimental to our liberty I have another favorite:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.." Samuel Adams
I have listed a few more very interesting quotes at the bottom of my homepage:
hypersynergy.com
Wabi-Sabi
Matthew
Especially to people like you with your lock 'em up and deny 'em medical care mentality,
"The minimum that most minimalists want leaves in place just the institutions who protect their interests. That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves."
What?
I never remotely thought or expressed any such thing.
Damn! I was going to quote a few jewels from that journal, but there's just too many. I'll leave it up to the readers if they're interested. For now a tiny sample: The second is that there is a HUGE waiting list for organs, and the LAST people they should go to are people who are criminals. (screw it. I was going to make a link, but you know where it is).
Anyway, yes, because we all know that everybody in prison is a criminal.
And I am saying prison inmates is a similarly poor use, and that it should be a disqualification.
Hmmm, any such thing, eh? Sure thing, pudgie. Hey! make it easy on yourself. Anytime a prisoner would die without a transplant, release him. Immediately. See? You're off the hook. He'll be dead soon enough and will no longer be a danger. The fact is, my goofy little friend, if the government holds a person against his/her will, it is responsible for their welfare. And that's that!
Oh well, that's enough. Now, Be off!
What?
got your ass handed to you on the www. enjoy.