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Sony Calls Current Blu-ray/HD DVD Format War a 'Stalemate
unger814 writes "Sony CEO Howard Stringer says that Blu-ray and HD DVD are currently in a 'stalemate' and is 'playing down the importance of the battle.' Stringer addressed a crowd at Manhattan's 92nd Street Y cultural center Thursday, where he said that 'it was a matter of prestige' which format wins. Stringer pointed to the switch by Paramount from producing movies in both formats to only HD DVD as a turning point. 'We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while, until Paramount changed sides,' Stringer said."
The first person to believe they have lost momentum is often the loser.
So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
Frosty piss!? Since the formats are roughly equal, then it is down to who does the dirtiest deals and knocks out their opponent with copious amounts of cash..
which is totally what she said
'We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while, until Paramount changed sides,'
Now what? Are you going to try to win by unlawful or dishonest tactics? Not sure why you wouldn't try to win on the merits, unless you know that your product isn't as good...
This comes down to greed, pure and simple. Rather than sitting down and coming to a standard acceptable industry-wide, these corporations decided to go it alone and try to beat the other guys in a format war. The result has been market confusion. I heard one NPR analyst estimate that this format war has reduced the market for next-gen DVDs by 90% - in other words, 90% of potential consumers stay away until the war has a clear winner. And there's no end in sight. I hope the format war continues on indefinitely, to teach companies a lesson not to do this in the future.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
... how much money has been exchanged under the table between the studios and the format owners?
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to think "profiling is worse than the slaughter of innocent people..."
In this war, there may not be a winner, but I guarantee the consumers will be the losers. From high priced product ( which may go down in time ) to DRM shens ( Explain to your mom why the new movie she just bought for 30 bucks doesn't work in her 600 dollar player ).
And like cattle, we line up to hand over our money.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Sounds like the guys at Sony are giving up.
Without the two P's (price, and porn) it's hard to win this war. Sony lost most of the Porn and they seem to not be able to bring down production costs enough to match prices. Since the are loosing so much money in other areas, they probably can't afford to take the loss.
Plus 5-10 discs for free after rebate/in the box.
Or haven't you been paying attention to the sales this month.
What I really want though is a $50 internal HD-DVD reader drive
($100 burner would be nice too but first things first I guess)
With all the formats out there, they all have one thing in common: they're all unpronounceable words. VHS and DVD. Try pronouncing them. I'm thinking HD DVD will eventually come out on top if the historical track record continues.
The game.
If Sony's calling it a stalemate, then HD-DVD is already ahead. If all Sony can manage with it's PR department is to call the situation a "stalemate," then HD-DVD likely ahead in real terms. Incidentally, I just conducted an informal, non-scientific poll here in the office. Of 20+ people, only two had heard of Blu-Ray. Half had heard of HD-DVD, but almost all were able to figure out what it was by the name alone. It makes me think that HD-DVD has an advantage just because of its name.
"We'll call it a draw"
~Black Knight
crazy dynamite monkey
And I think that will be for those who have HD DVD players already and kids when shrek 3 comes out it will help HD DVD.
hello
I will not be getting either one until there is a clear winner. So a stalemate is a loss for both sides.
Test your net with Netalyzr
There is no stalemate, because the "war" is not over. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are just, for the most part, dead even in an ongoing race. As they say in Highlander, "There can be only one". As time goes on, prices will come down, and consumers will start to get the itch and start buying whatever brand happens to capture their attention and the scales will tip one way or the other. Soon after that the other technology will slowly fade into the background and a winner will emerge.
..fashion some kind of crude weapon to break the impasse.
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/11/hack-turns-ps3-.html
Genesis 1:32 And God typed
These things are still far to expensive. The jump between VHS quality and DVD quality was HUGE!! Not only did you start getting things like director's commentary and deleted scenes, but you got a much more "cinema like" experience. 5.1 dolby (in multiple languages if you need it), 16x9 Aspect ratio etc. etc. etc.
Blu-ray/hddvd don't offer THAT huge of a jump from DVD....certainly not enough of an improvement to justify their [still] astronomical prices, not to mention the limited selection of titles.
The first one to come out with a 30 dollar player will win the war.
NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
When BluRay and HD DVD first came out, DVD *just* became the standard. People like the latest and greatest in general, but give consumers some time to play with their toys before trying to sell them new ones. With recent news of uncertainty in the economy, BluRay and HD DVD are on the back-burner of the back-burner for a good while to come.
In chess, if you know you're going to win (which is often the case, sometimes several moves before it happens), it's customary to offer a draw out of courtesy, rather than to drag out the inevitable. While Sony may be trying to use this analogy, from popular opinion it seems more like admitting defeat.
We can fit a whole 1080p XViD movie into a single layer DVD, just need to come up with a format standard for menus, have a few hardware players support it and give a free license to the porn industry.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
Well - if Sony PR is calling it a stalemate, thats the equivalent of declaring HD-DVD the winner.
Did anyone expect otherwise though? The statement "Never Get Involved in a Land War in Asia" has pretty much been replaced with "Never Get Involved On The Sony Side Of A Format War". Seriously - Betamax, Mini Disc, Memory Stick, A-TRAC - Why would anyone expect Sony to come out aheard this time? They have no idea how to trumpet a format.
Despite what Howard Stringer says, it seems obvious that there is much more than just prestige on the line for Sony. Specifically, if Blu-Ray loses to HD-DVD, the PlayStation 3, which is already overly expensive, would lose it's secondary selling point - as a Blu-Ray player. This would be disastrous for Sony, as even more people would choose the 360, which can be made to play HD-DVDs for a relatively small premium over the basic package.
It should be illegal to say that freedom of speech should be limited.
To make a High Definition movie, you do not need to add pixels or bits. They are already there. If the movie wasn't recorded in High Definition, it's a waste of money to pay for 'artifical bits'. This is a laborous and pretty poor way to do things. But, if a DVD is the movie - with extra data compressed or removed to fit the DVD. Thus, the acutal production cost differnce between a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is pretty much only the materials cost, plus whatever (if any) extra material the production company chooses to include. So, why not price the High Defintion movies at $2 more than a standard DVD format? All other factors being near equal, price will be the deciding factor.
Is the polite phrase for saying the other sucks.
In other words, they want to call the other side names, make claims the other sides technology is inferior, but can't do it and remain professional.
Right now, in the DVD war the only thing BluRay has over HD is Disney. Thats the most important line they have which seems to be limited to BluRay.
Since HD DVD players have recently hit $99 on special deals, hell even regular price $199 versions can come with up to TEN movies, its only a matter of time before BluRay is just another Sony product unique to Sony.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I really don't care which format wins. By the time I invest in an HD TV, I fully expect that the hybrid HD-DVD/ Blu-Ray players will be out and that is what I will buy. At that point, anyone who was an early adopter of wither of these technologies will probably pick one of them up as well. It's not like VHS vs Beta as in that case, the formats required tapes that were physically different in size. The discs don't have that limitation.
Whatever. Just sell me a player that reads both formats.
When visually there is no real difference, price will will
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-galloway/walmart-decides-hd-forma_b_71293.html
'We were trying to win on the merits, which we were doing for a while, until Paramount changed sides,' Stringer said.
If they were trying to win on "the merits", then why would that have any bearing? The blu-ray technology did not change when a content provider stopped using it.
Unless, of course, you define "the merit" as "having more content providers".
- Roach
Thanks. Everyone was wondering what the Sony-haters were thinking on this. Turns out they were thinking "I hate Sony". Who could have guessed?
Actually, it's even worse. If Blu-Ray loses, Blu-Ray players will stop being manufactured. Sony is relying on economies of scale to drive down the costs of Blu-Ray diodes and drives, which will make it even harder for them to make a profit on the PS3.
In the past 1.5 years they've already lost half the profit they made on the Playstation brand since 1997 (you can check it on their financial reports).
Combine that with the astronomical price cuts they're being forced to do, and you have the recipe for financial disaster at Sony's game division. There may never be a PS4 if things keep going the way they're going now.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Sony doesn't understand that it's evil. Their hardware functionality is dictated by their ownership of content. Everything they do is infused with copy protection; another word for that is "preventing the creation of value for the customer." They would generate a LOT MORE MONEY for stockholders by splitting themselves up into a hardware company and a content company.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
I bet it is all down to the PS3 being a failure. I bought the HD-DVD just because it was the only one available for 360...
We'll call it a draw!
More
BluRay should win. It has more space to store data. Of course when you take into account Microsoft and their underhanded acts and all the marketing hype then HD-DVD might win. It will be a sad day though because the technically better format should win.
There isn't anything about Blu-Ray players that I see worth getting for "merits". As others have pointed out, the space differences don't matter a whole lot when there isn't any more content to put on the discs. I own about 20 HD-DVDs so far and what i've noticed is almost all of the extras are just the DVD extras so they aren't even in high-def anyway. Only on newer movies do you also get HD extras since they are filming them with higher-res cameras instead of your typical hand-held camera that a lot of the "behind the scenes" type stuff is filmed with.
Also, HD-DVD's format specification was finalized a long time before Blu-Ray (is Blu-Ray's spec even finalized yet!?). That allows for all HD-DVD players to support a standard set of features when some early Blu-Ray players won't be able to play later Blu-Ray features because the spec wasn't (or still isn't) finalized. Also, HD-DVD has an overlay layer so they can do some neat things with running special features in Picture in picture or sliding menus up on top of the movie so you can browse around without pausing the movie or having to go to a "root" menu.
Both formats have slow booting players right now though. When you turn on your HD or Blu-Ray player, it will be at around a minute and a half before you are watching the movie because of how slow the players are to first boot up, then to actually load the movie. This problem is still there even on the third-gen HD-DVD players that are out now (I have the Toshiba 1080p HD-DVD player that came out last month ~ $320 on Amazon).
One big thing in HD-DVDs camp though is the price, the cheapest blu-ray player is the PS3 at $400 and it doesn't have all of the same level of functionality as a high-end stand-alone player would. You can get an HD-DVD player for around $150 now and they're rumored to be even cheaper at Christmas.
As for the movies, it is hit and miss on how good a job they did of cleaning up the image and re-scanning the original film on older movies. Some have the occasional dust pop from where the film they scanned from was dirty. The newer movies do look really good though, and you notice the HD in the finer details (facial hair, textures on clothing and faces). The funny thing is, HD basically lets you see more blemishes where clothing might have lint on it or there is a blemish on an actor or actresses face! Also, the movies are pretty expensive, the cheapest you will find HD-DVDs that are new is around $24 compared to $12-15 for the same movie on DVD.
Ultimately, I think the winner will be whoever strikes some more "We give you $50 million in cash and you only release on our format for minimum of 2 years" type deals. There are very few movies out on Blu-Ray right now that I really miss having other than Spider Man and Pirates of the Carribean. There are a LOT more that are exclusive to HD-DVD that I wouldn't want to miss having: Shrek 3, Transformers, Oceans Eleven/Twelve/Thirteen, some Jet Li movies, Unforgiven, The Searchers and about 30+ more.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson
I picked up an HD-DVD this weekend during the über-blowouts. Naturally, I missed out on the $99 ones, but I went ahead and picked up an A3 with 10 movies for $200. My take on the whole thing is this: both media types are the same form factor and can be played in a single player if it supports both formats. There are already some of these players out there (although they're 800-1000 bucks). Eventually, prices will come down low enough on the dual-format players that a "winner" will be more or less irrelevant. Even if BluRay eventually "wins", I'll still be able to pick up a dual format player for years to come (maybe paying a hair more than a regular BD player [2011: Oh no, 50 bucks instead of 40!]). But based on how the DVD-R/DVD+R "wars" eventually panned out, I'm betting both formats will stay around for a while and the players will make the whole thing irrelevant.
This guy's the limit!
I'm very happy with my purchase and have already spent about a hundred bucks on Blu-Ray movies, and I've only had the thing two weeks. So to me it seems Blu-Ray is healthy enough.
Nevertheless the format issue is a problem - if my player did HD-DVD also then I'd buy some of the HD-DVD only titles such as The Matrix. But as it is those movies are just out of the question to me now. I'm not buying ANOTHER player, so I'm stuck with my 1999/2000 era original matrix DVD (definitely showing its age now!).
So some consumers are holding back entirely, but those of us who have taken the plunge end up (realistically speaking) having to pick one format and then our choice of movies is diminished. Now that I have a high-def player I am less likely to want to buy many movies in standard-def regular DVD any more.
So it's a real problem for consumers either way - buy now or wait, it sucks.
Ideally dual-format players would come out, and at much lower prices, then the consumers wouldn't care so much and the technical war could go back to a back-room debate for engineers over laser wavelengths, number of layers etc etc.
Are they selling old movies in HD-DVD/Blu-ray? I don't imagine that many people want them, given that the switch from VHS to DVD really wasn't that long ago.
:)
Does the average consumer know the advantages of either format? I for one don't even know how they are better than DVD except perhaps higher resolution or longer play time. Then again, I don't particularly care.
I am just waiting so I don't buy the equivilent of a VCR/Laser Disc player/walkman. I wish one of them would win already!
We just bought our first HDTV, they then knocked the price of a Toshiba HD DVD player down to $169 if we bought it at the same time. I asked about Blu Ray, the salesman said they'd love to, but they aren't getting the incentives from the factories and wholesalers. Plus, Blu Ray has that awful problem that Beta had in the 80's, license fees that keep the price floor artificially high.
If you remember the VHS/Beta wars, the winning factor really wasn't quality, it was price. You could get the VHS machines cheaper, and the tapes were cheaper. Sony keeps biting their own tail.
If it continues down familiar Sony lines, HD DVD will be the dominant one, and Blu Ray will go the way of the Beta and MD.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
- Toshiba seems to be the only company making HD-DVD players ( Official HD-DVD site)
And just from my own observations at a few retailers in NY I see more Blu-ray movies than HD-DVDs on the shelves. I'm not buying a player until there's a clear winner, but if I had to buy soon (i.e. my DVD player dies) I'd pick a Blu-ray player.If you call it a stalemate when you're being held face-down on your bunk by five or six prisoners while the one they call "Anaconda" is pulling your pants down, then maybe Sony is right.
On the other hand, the next time I yell, "Hey bitch, get me a beer," I bet a Sony exec comes running with my pint.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Blu-ray has, right now, a 50gb to 30gb advantage. That's pretty significant. Blu-ray has the potential for 100gb and hd-dvd might be able to get 50gb. Those extra gigs could be put towards quailty or quanity. Consumers might care, or they might not.
But if you want to point to something that blu-ray has that consumers will care about, it's the Sony catalog. It is huge. And the crown jewel is the entire James Bond collection. Joe Six-pack WILL want to see those on his player.
The big fear that I have with HD-DVD is that Toshiba announced over 2 years ago a triple-layer HD-DVD disc to compete with Blu-Ray's higher capacity. Aren't most of today's players only capable of playing dual-layer HD-DVDs? Are all of today's HD-DVD players heading for the scrap heap?
But then again, with the $99 HD-DVD specials, this is more of an environmental concern, not a financial one...
Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
I'll probably hold the grudge for another five-ish years if they can keep their nose clean.
Storm
Many companies, especially the Japanese, seem to have this obsession with forcing their own standards on the consumer. Sony is one of the most notorious. And the problem isn't just with standalone formats like Blu-ray, UMD or MemorySticks. I got one of those small Sony tablet PCs from work a few years ago. The thing has a custom firewire port incorporates external power so that it uses a unique plug. Booting from a CD or floppy was an exercise in frustration. It refused to boot from any CD drive, requiring a USB floppy drive. However, the thing would only recognize specific Sony floppy drives during bootup.
More recently, researching HD camcorders I encountered more of this nonsense. Some camcorders, like the Canon I ultimately purchased support HDMI out. However because a standard HDMI port apparently isn't small enough a slightly smaller, HDMI port was created meaning I can't just go an use a standard HDMI cable. I think some even use proprietary ports. At least my camcorder has a standard hot shoe, because Sony camcorders use smaller proprietary hot shoes. The consumer is stuck with Sony for their accessories.
This same issues extends to codecs. Sony and Panasonic developed AVCHD for HD camcorders, presumably as a new standard. Except that Sony then went made a proprietary version of that codec. Then there are all the flash media formats and their subsets with no consistency whatsoever.
There's this obsession with developing a format that locks people into a single company, or worse, the unrealistic desire to have everyone else adopt a single company's standard. No one wants to pay the licensing to use someone else's closed standard
Obviously, it's their prerogative but it doesn't benefit the consumer at all. It ultimately hinders progress and true interoperability.
If you're in the UK
take a walk into HMV or the Virgin media shops
these are the two I've spotted at the moment that have HD on the shelf
(I think HMV was the first, when the PS3 was released)
then count the number of Blu-Ray (Bright Blue case) vs HD-DVD Cases (horrible brown looking cases) on the shelf
It looks to me that there's a lot more Blue than Brown
(and the price is startng to come down too)
Summary of comments on "Blu-ray VS HD DVD" article #242175: - HD DVD is winning - No, Blu-ray is winning - HD DVD is cheaper - Blu-ray is better technology. - Toshiba pays studios for support - Sony makes rootkits - There are no winners - The consumer is the big loser This is the same list as for the 242174 previous "Blu-ray VS HD DVD" articles.
Everyone I know with a BluRay player has an HD-DVD player.
The opposite is not true.
That probably says something.
It's a stalemate because neither one is winning. Consumers are happy with plain old DVDs.
The cake is a pie
I'm still sitting out both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD until this whole imbroglio is over. And even then, it'll be a good long while before I get any next-gen DVD player; my family buys no more than a few DVDs a year as it is.
"Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
You trusted teh SONY!
I think the war is over and HD is the victor because the HD DVD players were able to get the price down quicker and thus get more units into homes. Chances are more movies will be available in HD format because of that. Right now I can find an HD player for about $200 USD. Blue Ray sells for around $450 USD. If Sony wants a stalemate, they'd better get the price down real soon.
- Floyd
I bought a Sony TV and a PS3. Went to look for a new movie to pick up and they were $29.99 across the board for blu ray and hd-dvd.
Forget it. Went home picked up a couple of used one's on ebay for a fraction of that.
If you want to be competitive and you want to sell product. Lower your prices.
Or come up with a program where I can trade my old DVDs in + $10 to get the Hi definition version of it.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
That doesn't mean Sony will be able to build the drives cheaply when they're doing it in small quantities. There's more to the drive than the diodes, and even the diodes will be more expensive if they're buying them in small quantities.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
That way you will enjoy the biggest library of HD content available and if Blu-Ray goes titsup, you still have a console you can play. If HD-DVD goes titsup, though, standalone players will be worthless.
Having twice as much of a pittance of the home video market is still just that, a pittance. The main barrier to entry for high-def has beent he high price point - no one wants to spend $400 on a Blu-Ray player when their DVD player they got for $50 plays moves "just fine".
With low cost sub-$100 and sub-$200 players, HD-DVD is set to sweep into living rooms as the dominant high-def format. Unless Sony can somehow cut it's prices even further (doubtful), it is on the losing end of this battle, regardless of how many people boguht Blu-Ray so far.
That's what the loser of a debate always says (or tries to), that its a stalemate. Once Sony sees that HD-DVD has taken off, and that Blu-Ray is being left behind, they're trying to salvage what little part of the market they have by trying to make people think that they're on equal ground, when in fact they're on the losing end.
Anyone (or any company) that thinks they'd still have a fighting chance (even if they were on equal ground) they'd never call it a stalemate, they'd keep fighting and marketing.
And they said zombies weren't real!
Is to be able to purchase a BD or HDDVD writer to make backups easier, but at first glance I would prefer a BD-DL@50GB rather than settle for HDDVD-DL@30GB, although I wonder how much of a price difference that makes in the end.
In Chess, a stalemate is a position such that *NEITHER* side can win. From Wordnet: "a situation in which no progress can be made or no advancement is possible;"
.../Ed
I think the Sony CEO is an idiot - this war *will* be won. By who or when is definitely up for debate, but it *will* be won. Given that he thinks that neither side *can* win suggests that he is no longer trying. He has just conceded.
I bought a Sony TV and a PS3. Went to look for a new movie to pick up and they were $29.99 across the board for blu ray and hd-dvd.
B&M is for losers and the impatient. There's tons of HD discs available for $19.95 on amazon, and there's probably similar deals on other sites.
In fact, recently there have been sales as low as $15 for catalog titles.
Reason #1:
It's not SONY
Reason #2:
It was the first one I found a sub $200 player that I could hook up to my PC. (Xbox 360 HD DVD drive)
Reason #3:
It was the first that I found a usefull software for ripping and playback. (AnyDVD HD and PowerDVD 7)
Reason #4:
It's not SONY
just reminds me of the black knight from quest for the holy grail who refuses to admit defeat until finally admitting a draw when he's a quadroplegic.
Just as VHS beat out Beta, HD DVD has figured out the best way to win. If your product has lower prices on the player/hardware, then that is the one the mass public will buy. Just last week Best Buy and Walmart had HD DVD players on sell for $99.99 and I believe the cheapest Blu-ray is still around $250.00 or more. Quality will never win over ease of use and lower price.
If Sony really wants Blu-Ray to win, it will "bite the bullet" and sell players for $100 and recorders for $200 during the 2007 Christmas holiday shopping season and make up the loss in future volume. Since products have already shipped to stores, they will need to do a rebate. To avoid annoying potential customers, it will need to be an "in store instant rebate". Otherwise most people (these are the people that don't give a damn about technical issues) will buy what is cheapest, and that is now HD-DVD.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
1080p HD video is *SIX TIMES* as many pixels as dvd. It is actually a larger jump than vhs->dvd.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
When you've only got 1920x1080 pixels to fill 24 times a second, yes, the difference between 30 and 48 Mbps is peanuts. Both formats are capable of transparent compression with advanced codecs.
My video compression blog
Why? Here we have Sony - as always - coming out with it's own proprietary format. Look back at Betamax , it's stupid memory sticks, those god-awful PCs with goofy ass monitor and keyboard connections.... When will it end? As soon as Sony BluRay came out, I knew it was doomed. Since when has a Sony-developed, proprietary technology won? I may be wrong, but I can't think of any.
Other than Apple (now), few companies in the consumer realms are successful with this sort of strategy.
I'm not waiting for a winner. I'm waiting for affordable, full-featured all-format players/drives. I don't want to buy a player than can't play back Spiderman3, nor do I want a player that can't play back Transformers. Give me a player that plays both and I'm in. Until then, my 720p projector will only be showing me old-school standard def DVDs. Same for my computer. I'm not buying a bluray drive, and I'm not buying an HDDVD drive. Sell me a drive that does them all, and I'll start paying attention. Until then, none of my computers will have any HD disk support. Grow up. Quit trying to win stupid wars that no one wants. Stop acting like Bush. End this war, merge things together, and begin to be truely successful. I largely kept out of DVD stuff until the + and - camps allowed combo products, and much the same way and for the same reasons, I'm keeping out of HD until they make friendly the same way.
Me.
The rootkit was the straw that broke the camel's back, though. I bought a Sony home theater system around five years ago. The DVD changer in it broke, so I sent it in for warranty repair. It took months for them to fix it and get it back to me, and when they finally did, it was still broken. They obviously hadn't checked to make sure it was working before sending it back. So I returned it again, and they fixed it that time. Just before the warranty expired, the DVD changer broke yet again, so I send it back again. They fixed it and sent it back after another month or so. Then around a year later, one of the speaker ports screwed up, causing the center channel to emit a constant high-pitched whistle. I wasn't about to pay to get something fixed that would probably break again soon anyway, so I cut my losses and threw the thing away.
Then, of course, there was the whole PS3 debacle. Sony was so nauseatingly arrogant about the whole thing, acting as if paying $600 for a gaming console that was a thinly veiled attempt at foisting their Blu-ray format on everyone would be a privilege. They didn't take any competition seriously, from a console gaming or a next-gen HD format point of view, and they got their clocks cleaned. That was extremely satisfying to watch. The reason I hate Blu-ray isn't because of its technical merits or lack thereof, it's because of how it was pushed on the public.
From what I hear, Sony used to be a really kick-ass company. Maybe someday they will be again after they learn some humility and what their place in the food chain is (i.e. under the wants and needs of its customers). But for now, they've just done too much wrong and lost my respect.
Stalemate?
Maybe.
Stale?
Hell yes.
It doesn't seem like there have been any useful developments in this format war for quite some time.
/* No Comment */
Though I understand the thinking, when the Toshiba HD DVD players hit the $100 mark they were very competitive than the regular upscaling DVD players, so effectively you get the HD DVD playing functionality for free or damn cheap at that point. If you do Netflix they carry a wide variety of HD DVD including new releases, so you never have to worry about getting "stuck with" a dead format, and you still have an upconverting DVD player. The only HD DVD's you would get "stuck with" would be the 5 free HD DVD's that come with it.
So at $100... why not?
I'm from Malaysia and I'll just wait till the pirates makes a decision to support which format ;)
This is just Sony's ploy to get as many of the 90% fence-sitting consumers as possible, to make a jump. With Christmas around the corner and Sony's financials in the ditch, they are desperate to have sales go up. They know if they miss this Christmas, then they have to wait another year for any significant changes, since most consumers spend outside their affordability during Christmas.
... my home videos are what I want to burn on the 50 GB discs and more space the merrier. But damn Blu-ray players and Blu-ray writers for computers cost an arm and a leg. Bring the prices down ... you will have your day.
I personally want Blu-ray to win this war so that we have 50 GB dual layer discs versus 30 GB. I don't care if movies don't have enough stuff to fill the 50 GB v/s 30 GB
If I've heard correctly, Sony can't really do that. Their partners which manufacture Blu-Ray players would kill them, since they're in for profit. On the other hand, Toshiba is the only manufacturer of HD-DVD players, so they can do as they please.
The only way for Sony to do that would be either to convince their partners that it's worth doing it, or pay up for other companies' losses. Considering Sony's finances aren't very good right now, I'd say the chances of that happening aren't very big.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
But its a Digital -> Digital upgrade. VHS was analog tape which is a much different quality change than digital DVD to HD/BR.
Are some consumers possibly buying both?
I have a ps3 and have purchased a few Blu-Ray movies and if the price goes down on hd-dvd players without the players moving to blu-ray with things I really want I may have to get a cheap hd-dvd player. That being said, I'm not abandoning blu-ray and I love it from a technological standpoint.. More storage is always a good thing...
the difference is huge. I watch VHS, SDTV, *and* HDTV, almost every day, due to electic tastes. (yesterday I went from Ferris Bueller The Series vhs to Curb Your Enthusiasm SDTV to Smallville 720p). 720p isn't as big of a difference -- it's only like 2.5 times dvd quality or so. But 1080p is a big difference. When looking at a landscape from a helicopter-view camera, you can literally see about 90% of the detail that you would see in real life. It is nothing short of amazing. And Shrek 2 rendered in 1920x1080 was, in terms of visual detail, the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life.(I just got my TV last month.)
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I've got a Blu-Ray player (PS3) and I bought it figuring that I get a HD video player plus I can play games. In the end if HD-DVD becomes more popular, then I'll just pick up a player for $100 and be done with it.
But really, here's where it all ends up:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/ricoh-announces-blurayhd-dvd-combo-player-186735.php
A player that will play both formats and make this entire "war" irrelevant. They'll start off pricier, but in a year or two they'll be down to $100 like the single format players, and the game will be over. The result will be that the manufacturers of those players will pay a royalty to both Toshiba and Sony, and then some combination of royalty rates and features will determine what studios release on what formats.
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No offense, but the poster doesn't understand what HD, or even a digital broadcast is. +5 interesting is just plain silly. Give him Funny points at least, calling this interesting is a little sickening.
I picked Blu-ray.
Reason #1:
It's not MICROSOFT
Reason #2:
It's standard with my PS3.
Reason #3:
I have no f'ing intention to rip 50 or even 30GB discs. Gutting all the extra features, and compressing the video just SORT OF defeats the purpose of buying an HD-DVD or Blu-ray to begin with. Really man, stick with DVD's. They're already compressed better for you. Do you really find it necessary to build TB or greater file servers in your own home to play movies you may or may not even own? My CD binder does a better job, takes less space, and no power.
Reason #4:
It's not Microsoft.
You must have been born yesterday if you think Sony is the greater of two evils.
Sony also just saw Spiderman 3 bring the sales figures for last week to 71:29 in favor of Blu-Ray sales... and this week Ratatouie was released.
It doesn't matter how many players you dump on the market below cost. How many of those $100 HD-DVD players are just being used as upconverting DVD players?
What matters is media sales, and there Blu-Ray is still doing well (as it has all year). The problem is that wider adoption of HD media will be on hold until there is one format in the market. Then sales will take off in a huge way.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So, Bluray discs have a super hard coating, but if that coating gets scratched, it's game over for the disc, can't be polished by standard means. HDDVDs are constructed more like DVDs, and light scratching is ignored or can be polished.
You must have missed the YouTube video showing that knives and steel wool do not affect the coating.
Next myth, please.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I haven't watched a movie off physical media in at least 2 years. No, i'm not pirating them, though that is an option. Time Warner, Uverse, i think fios all have movies on demand. Sure it's not high def now, but it will be. I find it much easier and more convenient than dealing with buying, netflixing, pirating, whatever.
My dvd player has 3mm of dust on it. I have no intention of getting either an hd/dvd or a blueray player. By the time a clear victor is declared, no one will care. We will all be streaming high def content on demand.
The formats themselves are largely irrelevant once you get past sony haters like zonk. When the masses decide to look into an HD player, they'll be looking to get their favourite movies first. Unless studios do the decent thing and release their wares on each, the big blockbuster titles will choose the format.
The problem with BluRay has little to do with its features, or price, or manufacturing requirements, and everything to do with its name.
From an average american consumer's viewpoint, DVD is a synonym for "video disc". HD means pretty picture. They are familiar with those terms already. So when you ask them which is more attractive to them, "BluRay" or "HD-DVD", guess which one is chosen?
BluRay was a marketing failure the day it was named BluRay. They only got as far as they have because of the PlayStation 3.
The people in marketing at Sony or the Blu-Ray consortium need to be fired. They obviously don't understand the psyche of the american consumer. Had they named it "DVD Plus", or "CinemaDVD" or something along those lines, we might have seen a different outcome.
Seriously. DVDs hold 8.5GB of storage (give or take a bit). Of the 350 or so DVDs I own, I think only two of them have more than 8GB of data on them, and I'd estimate no more than 10% have more than 6.5GB. About a third are single layer. What I'm getting at is that even in a clearly inferior codec format, the studios are wasting 20-40% of the available disc space. Did I hear you say Superbit? Good call...how many moviews have been released in superbit recently. Right.
Oh, sure, there's the argument that you could put a lower compression version on the disc, or that you could put more data on a single disc, but where's the value in that? Lower compression at that level is probably not going to be discernible to most of the population, even if they did go out at get 1080p projectors for their theaters with 100+ inch screens. Multi disc sets? Hey - that's a feature. Look at the prices - are you going to pay extra for 10 seasons of Seinfeld on a single disc, or would you pony up for a deluxe 2 disc set? Of course you and I would see through the charade, but there are a lot of stupid people out there that equate number of discs with value. A 2 disc set will always sell for an extra 40-60%, even if there is no real additional material.
No, not only is the extra capacity worthless, with the cost of HDs dropping so quickly, even the writable formats are going to be poor choices for backups. When was the last time you backed up you 500GB drive onto DVD? How about DVD-DL - yeah, that's economical. By the time these drives hit $50, the you're still going to be looking at a cakebox to back up your nTB drive.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Turns out he's a Microsoft loyalist. This is what happens when XBox fanboys post on teh Internets.
Actually it can. The issue is (using the VC-1 Codec) it can only contain ~83 minutes of it, which discounts most "non-animated made for TV movies".
A CEO must be cautious with his words, and in saying that both formats are in a "stalemate", he's ignoring the fact that blu-ray movies are outselling HD-DVD movies 2 to 1.
I feel he's been in discussions with Toshiba on how to resolve the "stalemate", and he's trying to give Toshiba a way to "save face".
Either that, or Howard Stringer is a moron.
Here's my suggestion:
/
done.
Aren't these the lyrics to an NWA rap?
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Blu Ray never gained momentum, for that matter, neither did HD DVD.
Truth be told, I don't have an HD TV, so I doubt I'd really appreciate what either has to offer, in terms of video. On the other hand Blu-Ray, with its advertised storage capacity of 25GB, appeals to me for making back ups of my computer. With these drives approach a price point of $500, this is really tempting:
- http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2139001,00.asp
- http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1980095,00.asp
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I'm quite satisfied with just DVD quality movies and I am perplexed as to why any of you want to spend so much money just to get the same movie with a slightly better image.
I'm sure if you have a 100" TV then it would look better but for normal people like me (haha ok i'm not normal!) I still have a 21" screen and don't really care about getting anything bigger. The whole HD thing is a scam just to get money out of people.
I think that DVD is going to be around for a looong time because that's what people are comfortable with and looks good on their screen. Most people don't have enormous TVs so see little benefit in HD technology.
stand alone http://www.tvpredictions.com/forum/comments.php?y=07&m=11&entry=entry071108-051750 the 90,000 recently announced for a week did not include online sales by amazon and others so its actually higher.
...Netcraft confirms it.
If Blu-Ray goes tits up, your PS3 was $200 too expensive.
It will have nothing to do with quality ala Beta vs VHS, nor will it have to do with main-stream production house selection ala Paramount. What will ultimately decide which format wins will be the porn industry. Adult entertainment is the number one source of revenue from sales and rentals, and I'd put my money on them leading the move to one format or anther.
The number of comments on here about how there's only a format war cause both format owners are GREEDY, and it's causing consumer confusion, etc. amaze me.
This is the same crowd that goes APE SHIT over monopolies and proprietary formats, and goes on and on about how there should be more open competition. Well you got it! Unfortunately, sometimes with competition, there are, you know, competing solutions.
So yes, it's annoying and potentially confusing. But do you think that there would be $100 HD players if there wasn't such intense competition? Do you think the formats would get such big support if there wasn't intense pressure to roll out? Would you rather a company like sony have total dominance in the market? Yes, some titles are on one and some on the other.
Don't worry. Whoever wins, all the titles will eventually come out on that format, or dual-format players will be cheaper. In fact, I almost prefer the latter, as I actually like when there's multiple solutions to choose from.
Competition is GOOD. It will mean cheaper, better, and a wider variety of goods for consumers. Too often, companies cite "consumer confusion" to mask what they're really concerned about - consumer CHOICE. I'm just surprised to see that happening here.
Let's see... I bought my PS3 60gig for $349 dollars with 8 free movies. I've bought 5 additional movies at Amazon.com for an average of about $17 a piece. I have an 8 foot wide front project HDTV and the quality is astonishing, player costs have come down far faster than any other player type for both formats and everyone is still bitching about how much stuff costs. I have rented Blu-Ray movies at Blockbuster for under $5 for a better viewing experience than going to the local Cineplex by far. Even with our small family of 3 this is an immense savings. Did your poor mom have a DVD player in its first year? Adjusted for inflation it was likely much more than $600.
Now granted I had to wait for a good sale before buying my Playstation and I don't buy movies the first week they come out unless it's a BOGO offer.
I would like to see Blu-Ray win, I think the PS3 is a vastly under-rated product, but I will buy HD-DVD and enjoy it too once it is clear it has won. If I'd realized how many HD-DVD players would be available during the $98 blow out I would have gone and gotten one, I had now idea they would last all weekend plus. If you think Toshiba is making money on any players under $200 I have a bridge in Brookline. My point is that Toshiba had to lower prices to under hundred to pull off this coupe, but it doesn't mean $200-$300 units will now sell like hotcakes. When Blu-Ray is similarly behind they will unload inventory at ridiculously low prices also. There is a reason there where so many HD-A2s sitting around on the shelf and that was at $200.
The real problem here is upconverted DVD looks pretty good and some (most?) people don't know how to properly set up a good HDTV installation or think it is too complex. While HDMI has some benefits it was mostly foist on the public to prevent piracy. Add to that, that equipment doesn't even come with a HDMI cable or even component in most cases and you have all the makings of people being underwhelmed by how things look when hooking things up with the S-Video or Composite connectors. BTW, while most people think a 51" set is huge, you can't believe how much the extra resolution means when you have 120" diagonal -- in other words most sets aren't large enough to really take advantage of HDTV.
I'm not sure you can blame Sony or Toshiba for HDMI as the studios insisted on these inconvenient extra connectors to fight piracy, though HDMI does promise some interesting future capabilities like deep color and higher resolutions.
As a final note, it is odd about how everybody is crying and complaining about having two formats to choose between. Yes, we should never give the consumer a choice. Manufacturers should always decide everything for us in advance. Oddly if their were no choice to make Toshiba and Sony would both still have over $500 as the lowest price point for entry this Christmas. Am I the only who remembers $1000 DVD players?
Letter To Iran
Here's my take. Own both. Buy a Toshiba HD-DVD player at Wal-Mart for $100 and a PS3 for $400. You get both and a game system for less that half the price of a Hybrid player (or cheaper than a PS3 last year). I have both. Yes, I do opt for Blu-Ray if I have a choice of both for a film because I think Sony can't walk away that easily on this one. Why do you have to be at war? Why choose a side? Enjoy Transformers, Batman Begins and the Spider-Man Box Set right now in HD. Let the fan boys fritter their time away pissing and moaning about which format is is going to win. You'll be watching HD movies and not caring like me.
Sure, Windows PCs dominate the market. But so do cheap toupees.
It drives me nuts when people say things like this: "The jump between VHS quality and DVD quality was HUGE!!"
That's like saying the jump between cassette tapes and CDs was huge. Of course it was. But anyone who really cared about audio quality had LP records instead of cassettes. Same way, anybody who actually *cared* about video quality had LaserDisc. Apparently not many people cared, since LD never really took off in a big way. (And S-VHS fared even worse.)
The jump in quality between LD and DVD was none. Zip. Nada. Yet for some reason DVD quickly obliterated LD. Go figure.
It just shows how little "quality" matters in making or breaking an audio or video format.
The only way I can see either side "winning" this war is if they. . .
1. Get rid of HDCP.
2. Get rid of control lock-outs.
3. Get rid of region codes. (Score one for HD-DVD, it doesn't have region codes.)
It's blatantly obvious that neither side in this battle is playing to win -- and by that I mean, win over consumers. These machines aren't designed for consumers, they aren't designed for movie lovers, movie collectors. . . they aren't designed for your or me. They're designed for the MPAA.
I've wanted a HD videodisc player badly for years. This was the key thing that's been missing from the HDTV transition. We had HDTV sets and monitors, we had receivers, we had cable boxes and satellite receivers. We even got DVRs. The one big crucial thing that was missing, that I wanted most of all as a HDTV fan, was a pre-recorded HD format -- HD discs. With HD discs I'd be able to start a movie collection of actually theater-quality movies, not fuzzy (relatively speaking) DVDs. That's the dream.
And I still haven't bought one. And I'm not sure if I'm going to, because I'm so disgusted by HD-DVD and BluRay. I'm disgusted by the stupid, pointless "format war". I'm disgusted by HDMI, which my expensive, high-quality HDTV set doesn't have. I'm disgusted by HDCP "downsampling", even though nobody has actually used it on their discs yet. Just knowing they could and probably will use it makes me sick. I'm disgusted by the thought of my hardware being "revoked" and killed by the MPAA whenever it tickles their fancy to do so. I disgusted that they still aren't getting rid of control lockout and region codes, which have been nothing but a nuisance for DVD (and which LD didn't have).
It's like they're trying every way in the world to drive me away from their products. But the truth is worse. . . The truth is that they don't really care what I think, what any of us ordinary people think. They aren't trying to please us, they are trying to please the MPAA. The MPAA is their customer. As far as I'm concerned the MPAA can buy their machines, and I'll go back to collecting books.
The only DVDs I ever buy are cartoons for my kid, because he watches them every day. I rent everything else on Netflix. I simply don't see a good reason to buy movies anymore because Netflix is so cheap.
Yet, from what I can tell, HD-DVD has the potential of being much cheaper than BR. (I realize this is like saying I have the potential to bone Natalie Portman, just saying.)
Two major factors:
First, licensing. While both are going to use AACS, I would guess that other licenses around HD-DVD would be cheaper. I could be completely wrong about that.
Second, DRM. HD-DVD can come without DRM, and some small studios are doing it. It means fewer features -- for example, no access to the 128 megs of flash memory that's on every player -- but it also saves you a licensing fee. BR not only requires AACS, they allow two additional standards: BD+ and BD-ROM Mark. The latter requires some data stored elsewhere on the disk -- I would guess this increases the cost of manufacturing.
From what I understand, in fact, it's relatively cheap to upgrade a standard DVD facility to support HD-DVD, and I know at least a few discs are coming that are literally two-sided -- one side DVD, one side HD. BR requires completely new equipment.
Also, the fact that HD-DVD has been $99 already suggests that it will win among non-gamers. The player will be cheaper, the discs are likely cheaper to produce (so can become cheaper), and the A2 is a damned good standard DVD player, too -- has a great upscaler, says my boss (who has a massive 1080p TV at home).
Now, the technical parts.
BR is the more flexible spec, it seems. Looking at a matrix between the two, on BR, secondary video and audio decoders (for picture-in-picture and, I guess, an overlayed audio commentary track), and Internet connectivity are all optional. It doesn't mention persistent storage, which is again, supported, but optional.
All of these things are mandatory on HD-DVD. Doesn't mean you need an Internet connection, but it means that every player must have an Ethernet port. Again, BR has more expensive players, but the cheapest ones aren't obligated to support any of these features.
The things that are mandatory on Blu-ray: more restrictions, and a bigger disc, always. By "more restrictions", there's the DRM, and also the region coding. (HD-DVDs are region-free.)
How many gamers are there, versus non-gamers who will want this? I've heard of stores that have stopped selling SD TVs, and for $99, with a decent upscaler, that A2 is not a bad SD DVD player. So for all the millions of Average Joes out there, who don't play games and don't care about the "format war", this is still a sensible upgrade if they're into DVDs at all.
Yes, they do, you just don't seem to care about it:
Well, first, the 300 HD-DVD appears to use more than a single layer for the main video alone. That's 15 gigs per layer. So "20 hours" could be made to fit, yes, but realistically, the space isn't entirely unused.
Second, even if you're convinced it is, HD-DVD, at least, supports red-laser discs. That means you can get an HD-DVD movie, with all the trimmings, on a dual-layer DVD disc, if it will fit.
As for the "PC-style navigation", that sounds like someone who hasn't used it. There are more than enough gimmicks to sell this concept, and remember, Joe User doesn't give a fuck about DRM; he didn't give a fuck about DRM when this was about DVD vs VHS and your argument might have been for Video CDs (but with MP
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Could you point me to a better player, maybe?
I develop for HD-DVD. We have an A1, an A2, and an Xbox 360. The only better player we've been able to test on is a software player. "Better" means it can theoretically use your hard drive for additional storage. "Theoretically" means it doesn't seem to, and every single software player has huge, application-breaking bugs. These aren't the kind of bugs you can code around -- these are things like persistant storage being wiped, or no Internet support.
But yeah, what would be a better HD-DVD player? The Xbox 360? Sorry, doesn't seem to be using the internal hard drive for persistent storage. And, despite those three cores, it's a lot more sluggish than the A1 with its -- what -- 1.7 ghz processor?
Maybe the A3. I guess time will tell. (Although I will say, one of the more annoying A1 design "features" will likely make scripts take up less RAM than on any other player, including, sadly, the A2.)
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
If you were stupid enough to buy a PS3, you've already got a Blu-Ray player.
The A2 is $150 now, and Wall-Mart was selling them for $99 last week. Most upscaling DVD players are more expensive, and I guarantee you spent more on your Mythbox.
"Compatibility nightmare"? Hmm... I plug this end of the HDMI cable in here, and this end in here, and hey, presto! It works! Same for ethernet. And while we do test everything on all the players we can get our hands on, if it works on the A1, it'll probably work on anything.
(That said, there have been some really embarrassing things lately. Some National Geographic video that didn't play on the Xbox, for instance. But hey, it's not like DVD is better anymore, with Sony (and others) deliberately breaking the spec in order to fool some players...)
As for ripping, why rip? Maybe it's just me, but I find I don't watch the same movie over and over except in very rare circumstances (in which case it'll just stay in my player). And it looks like Netflix has HD-DVDs now, so you can still get em in the mail. (And I suppose you _could_ rip them, if you _really_ wanted to -- there are keys all over the place, and mplayer will likely support the container format soon. It already supports h.264, and VC-1 is pretty much WMV9, right?)
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I imagine they are, but I honestly don't know.
Game consoles, you can afford to sell below cost, because you make it back in game licenses. But what is Toshiba licensing? So far as I know, they may be licensing some patents on the players themselves -- but that hardly helps if no one's making money on the players.
Oh, and do you really have a bridge in Brookline? Is that a real place?
That's really bizarre. HDMI is dirt-simple to plug in, even if it's too sluggish to sync up for my tastes. And the A2 is a really good upconverter -- and even at $150, cheaper than anything close that only plays DVDs.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Vee Eych Ess.
Dee Vee Dee.
Eych Dee Dee Vee Dee. Harder? No, really?
Bee Dee.
But, realistically, if HD-DVD wins, you know it's going to either be abbreviated to DVD or HD.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I don't mean marketing hype, I mean that this is about where stuff was when DVD took over.
PS3s might decide it, but I doubt it. More likely, it's HD-DVD with the sub-$100 player, and the combo discs (flip it over and it's a standard DVD).
Picture quality really is amazing, if you have an HDTV -- and guess what? I'll bet most new TVs being sold are HD capable, particularly any meant to be put in front of a couch (not those little 15" things you put in the kitchen or whatever). So, if you're buying new hardware at all, it sort of becomes a "what the hell" decision.
And while Blu-ray doesn't guarantee it, boths allow real programming languages, and menus that appear while the video is playing. Watch an HD movie, but pick up the remote and play with the special features a bit, too -- 300, Heroes, any of those -- and you may start to get the point.
Whether "astronomical" prices would justify these gimmicks is a very good question. But again -- the A2 was on sale for $99 recently, and it's still only some $150. At that price, it's even worth it for standard DVDs -- your 30 dollar player will work, but it'll look like crap on an HDTV, compared to something with a decent upscaler -- but those are more like $500-$1k, and the A2 looks almost as good.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
the only people who give a damn are the manufacturers and studios. Consumers will still be buying vanilla DVDs right up until optical storage has been obsoleted by a new paradigm. With solid state stuff getting better and cheaper, I wouldn't be surprised if the next big step was to go back to cartridges. I mean, the whole point of moving from carts to CD was the storage space, right? Won't flash chips exceed current disc capacities in the near future?
There are many, many good reasons to avoid Blu-Ray, and to boycott sony. Video quality is not one of them.
They both use exactly the same fucking video codecs -- but Blu-Ray has higher capacity discs and higher disk bandwidth. Which means that, if the difference was in any way noticeable, Blu-Ray wins that one.
If you really care about this, stop trolling and get some facts. Like I said, there are plenty of reasons to prefer HD-DVD.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Blu-Ray player for $100... HD-DVD player for $50.
It wouldn't be a total loss, as some people would just grab both. But Joe User is going for the cheap one.
As for technical issues, I think that's going to become rapidly apparent. The most visible difference: HD-DVD menu animations don't suck giant donkey balls.
Less visible differences -- sorry, I'm under an NDA. Should be apparent at CES, though.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I seem to remember a certain Monty Python's Black Knight declaring the match a draw after he had all his appendages cut off.
I think it's based on the retailer sell-thru data collected by the third-party research firm (Nielsen Videoscan).
Corporations can be considered greedy because people still run them. Sometimes these people seem greedier then others. Get over yourself.
Quack, quack.
The truth is neither of these technologies are 'leapfrog' technologies, they are simply better DVD's with differing levers of user encumbrance.
Quack, quack.